:00:22. > :00:26.Hello, welcome to This Week's World, the show tasked with bringing global
:00:27. > :00:32.thoughts to Saturday oaf noon television with a cast of big
:00:33. > :00:39.thinkers. We have the editor of Vice News. And the GEO strategist,
:00:40. > :00:44.redrawing the world map along 21 century themes.
:00:45. > :00:50.And we are in conversation with Amartya Sen, the Nobel Prize winner,
:00:51. > :00:57.trying to escape the title he hates, the mother Theresa. And we ask him
:00:58. > :01:00.what he thinks of London's superrich and has President Jacob Zuma
:01:01. > :01:09.squandered the legacy of Nelson Mandela? The man scribed as the
:01:10. > :01:16.conscious of South Africa, Desmond Tutu, thinks that it is time for him
:01:17. > :01:21.to go. Does the ANC agree? So, Jonathans aren that will is the
:01:22. > :01:27.Commission editor for Africa. What does this matter now? This
:01:28. > :01:34.transitioned to democracy and it was an inoperation to much of the world.
:01:35. > :01:40.22 years, the economy is grinding to a halt, going over a country, facing
:01:41. > :01:46.a debt downgrade and a President who is frankly, not in the model of
:01:47. > :01:51.Mandela. He has been criticised by the constitutional court, he has a
:01:52. > :01:56.party that is riffen by factional differences, what has happened in
:01:57. > :02:05.the 22 years? Thank you. They both fought in justice, they
:02:06. > :02:11.were both imprisoned on Robben Island, yet the legacy cannot be
:02:12. > :02:13.more different. Mandela gave Africans their freedom, how will
:02:14. > :02:16.President Jacob Zuma be remembered. The ANC is the oldest
:02:17. > :02:19.liberation party in Africa. Founded just two years
:02:20. > :02:21.after South Africa was united into Demonstrations against
:02:22. > :02:26.the South African Government's The ANC is banned shortly
:02:27. > :02:30.after the Sharpeville massacre of 69 black people,
:02:31. > :02:33.and a radical Nelson Mandela forms its military wing
:02:34. > :02:38.Umkhonto we Sizwe. There are many people who feel
:02:39. > :02:44.it is useless and futile for us to continue talking
:02:45. > :02:47.peace and non-violence. A year later, Mandela is arrested
:02:48. > :02:53.and put on trial for treason and sentenced to life in Robben
:02:54. > :02:55.Island. Large crowds gather to watch
:02:56. > :02:57.the accused being driven away After 27 years in jail,
:02:58. > :03:04.Mandela's released, given the Nobel Peace Prize and goes
:03:05. > :03:06.on to become South Africa's first black President,
:03:07. > :03:08.advocating reconciliation. To be faithful to the
:03:09. > :03:16.Republic of South Africa. ANC support peaks at
:03:17. > :03:25.nearly 70% of the vote. Charismatic, popular Zuma
:03:26. > :03:28.is his deputy. June 2005, Zuma is fired
:03:29. > :03:31.after he is linked to fraud involving his financial adviser,
:03:32. > :03:35.and charged with corruption. Separately, he is also
:03:36. > :03:41.acquitted of rape. After a bitter contest,
:03:42. > :03:52.he is elected party President, and moves against Mbeki,
:03:53. > :03:54.forcing him to stand down. In 2009, Zuma becomes President
:03:55. > :03:56.of South Africa. But ANC support starts
:03:57. > :04:02.dropping and rivals emerge. Zuma's key ally, Julius Malema,
:04:03. > :04:05.starts his own party, the EFF. And the once white Democratic
:04:06. > :04:10.Alliance gained black support. The last few months have left
:04:11. > :04:16.Jacob Zuma embattled. With allegations that he allowed
:04:17. > :04:22.controversial businessmen, the Gupta brothers,
:04:23. > :04:26.to influence political decision. The constitutional court found
:04:27. > :04:31.he used Government money Now it looks like 783
:04:32. > :04:37.corruption charges against him Media claims that the stretched
:04:38. > :04:43.police budget was used to buy ten luxury vehicles for
:04:44. > :05:09.President Zouma's five wives. In South Africa, the ANC
:05:10. > :05:11.and democracy are synonymous, so despite the controversy around
:05:12. > :05:13.President Jacob Zuma, the ANC is still winning elections,
:05:14. > :05:15.but for how much longer? We went on a journey around
:05:16. > :05:18.the country, to find This 66-year-old woman says Zuma
:05:19. > :05:48.has changed her life. And that is why the majority
:05:49. > :05:51.of poor South Africans keep voting for the ANC,
:05:52. > :05:53.but the upcoming elections This is the mayor of one
:05:54. > :06:00.of the local municipalities. The country is having
:06:01. > :06:03.elections in August. We asked if people should
:06:04. > :06:10.still vote for the ANC. People are accessing who are not
:06:11. > :06:13.accessing it before. The reports of division
:06:14. > :06:19.within the party in a party that seems to be failing
:06:20. > :06:28.to run its own internal affairs? The ANC is a people's organisation,
:06:29. > :06:31.it has to listen to the people. But it is here in the rural
:06:32. > :06:37.areas where Jacob Zuma's You are looking at the
:06:38. > :06:42.President's private home. It is said to be one of the most
:06:43. > :06:50.expensive houses in the country. It has become a symbol of reckless
:06:51. > :06:54.Government spending, a lack of accountability,
:06:55. > :06:56.and sheer corruption. The President's home has
:06:57. > :06:59.been his biggest headache. The scandal he just
:07:00. > :07:02.could not shake off. And if the ANC decides to cut him
:07:03. > :07:04.lose, that sprawling homestead Young people against apartheid,
:07:05. > :07:19.and now it is the youth, the born free generation,
:07:20. > :07:21.those born after the end They want free education for poor
:07:22. > :07:29.students, something the ANC promised This is Rhodes University,
:07:30. > :07:39.a historically white university. It has changed over the years
:07:40. > :07:42.and has become more mixed, but black students in 2016 have launched
:07:43. > :07:45.a fresh wave of protest, they say they are still being financially
:07:46. > :07:47.excluded from attending prestigious This is not just a story
:07:48. > :07:55.about Rhodes, but something that has resonated at universities
:07:56. > :07:59.across South Africa. Black students say their parents
:08:00. > :08:02.are still financially unable to afford for them to attend
:08:03. > :08:05.universities such as this one, This woman is part of the born free
:08:06. > :08:16.generation, but says oppression Our generation is not going to be
:08:17. > :08:22.the one that says we will vote for the ANC no matter what it does,
:08:23. > :08:26.we are the ones who say only if the ANC does something that
:08:27. > :08:29.works, if it doesn't work We deserve more, we deserve better,
:08:30. > :08:32.and I would accept something like this, if it was coming
:08:33. > :08:35.from a white Government. That has always regarded me
:08:36. > :08:38.as a lesser human, but for it to come from an ANC Government that
:08:39. > :08:41.fought so hard for us to be regarded as black people,
:08:42. > :08:44.to do the things it does to us, which were being done to us
:08:45. > :08:46.by the apartheid Government, that is too deep and the pain,
:08:47. > :08:51.the pain, when it Next, we visit Limpopo,
:08:52. > :08:59.a province key to Anger boiled over here recently,
:09:00. > :09:05.although the protests were around Government decisions on
:09:06. > :09:10.local planning. The residents burned down
:09:11. > :09:12.more than 20 school, I've covered a lot of stories
:09:13. > :09:19.and visited a lot of and urban areas but I don't think
:09:20. > :09:24.I have ever seen anything like this. You can still smell the ash,
:09:25. > :09:27.and over there, you can see some books that are still
:09:28. > :09:29.burning, it is... Eric, 74, has lived
:09:30. > :09:41.here all his life. He tells me he is heartbroken
:09:42. > :09:57.about what has happened here. In my life, in my life,
:09:58. > :10:00.I don't think I would say, I can see another thing
:10:01. > :10:02.more than this one. You think he would have done
:10:03. > :10:07.something about the situation? Because this is, it
:10:08. > :10:10.can't be like this. Now, 22 years after the end
:10:11. > :10:13.of apartheid, this country's heart fought and young democracy
:10:14. > :10:33.is being tested. So, with South Africa's democracy is
:10:34. > :10:41.tested, does suma have to go? I spoke to the ANC's Treasurer, the
:10:42. > :10:46.man closest to Zuma and asked for his assessment. In March this year,
:10:47. > :10:49.the Supreme Court, decided that President Jacob Zuma decided he had
:10:50. > :10:54.violated the constitution through his use of public money. A terrible
:10:55. > :11:00.moment for your country and your party? That issue was relating to
:11:01. > :11:05.the powers of the public protector. This was an issue not as clear
:11:06. > :11:13.before as it was... It was pretty clear to the public wasn't it? He
:11:14. > :11:17.spent money on building his houses, he built an amphitheatre, a swimming
:11:18. > :11:22.pool with public funds? There were things that went wrong with this
:11:23. > :11:26.one, imparticular the nature with the supervision and the
:11:27. > :11:32.specifications and the price, we are clear that those things went wrong
:11:33. > :11:36.and needed to be attended to. When the constitutional court was ruling
:11:37. > :11:41.they reaffirmed the recommendations of the public protector and said
:11:42. > :11:46.there must be repayment of some of the stuff and the ministers
:11:47. > :11:52.reprimanded. That is happening. But you know there is pressure on
:11:53. > :11:58.President Jacob Zuma from all sides to resign now? The day you get this
:11:59. > :12:03.pressure from the opposition parties, you must look at yourself.
:12:04. > :12:08.So the robust dispensation, the opposition, they have a right to say
:12:09. > :12:15.whatever they wish to say. The matter must be together with when
:12:16. > :12:20.you are talking with the Parliament, they making a ruling, some are happy
:12:21. > :12:24.with it, some are not happy. But you could never say such things about a
:12:25. > :12:28.minister or leader of government and survive, today you can say anything
:12:29. > :12:32.you want to say. The constitution protects you. That is a strength.
:12:33. > :12:37.You can say what you want to say but respect and defer to the
:12:38. > :12:41.institutions that are to deal with the issues, your views are one
:12:42. > :12:47.thing, what the institutions decide they are another thing.
:12:48. > :12:52.But you have to listen, that at vice comes from friends like the South
:12:53. > :12:58.African Communist Party, a long-term ally of the ANC who say that the
:12:59. > :13:03.court's ruling amounts to action, now imperative, otherwise continuing
:13:04. > :13:07.loss of moral authority, political paralysis and fragmentation of our
:13:08. > :13:13.movement will continue. That is the way it is going. If Zuma does not
:13:14. > :13:19.step down, the whole movement lies in ruins? It is not only about Zuma
:13:20. > :13:25.but a whole issue of a number of issues. Looking at the statements
:13:26. > :13:29.they relate to a decision taken in the general coup sill in October.
:13:30. > :13:35.Is it the moment when you see how scared the markets are right now and
:13:36. > :13:39.how low the rand is, how fragile the economy is to say: We will give you
:13:40. > :13:42.confidence by clearing up our political system. That is where we
:13:43. > :13:47.have to start? The call for the President to resign is something
:13:48. > :13:52.that happens in many countries when you have got an economic strain in a
:13:53. > :13:56.country. Greece next door, it had three
:13:57. > :14:00.elections in 18 months and a Prime Minister elected two times. The
:14:01. > :14:04.issue is once you have an economy, depression of sorts, people will
:14:05. > :14:07.target the President, they will target the ruling party, they will
:14:08. > :14:12.target the government as they feel that something is wrong, it is done
:14:13. > :14:16.by that group. Therefore, that is what they expefkt. But you can't
:14:17. > :14:20.push the country to further instability by taking actions that
:14:21. > :14:26.could create more problems. You have to pull people together. You need to
:14:27. > :14:30.become more united, to turn the corner and deal with issues of what
:14:31. > :14:34.you change. As far as we are concerned we believe that there is
:14:35. > :14:38.something credible and positive that South Africa has done. I think that
:14:39. > :14:42.South Africa must be given credit for it.
:14:43. > :14:47.If people are asking you whether the ANC lost credibility, it lost when
:14:48. > :14:52.it set out to do, then isn't it right to say we have to sacrifice
:14:53. > :14:59.one man because the future of the ANC is more important?
:15:00. > :15:09.If Zuma did go, you would say the ANC could survive and flourish? You
:15:10. > :15:13.would look back and look at Nelson Mandela, there has never been a time
:15:14. > :15:20.when the South African President who comes from the ANC has not been
:15:21. > :15:27.criticised heavily. Nelson Mandela was taken to court. He never caught
:15:28. > :15:33.100% of the South African vote. He got 69% of the vote, at the time,
:15:34. > :15:36.and I can guarantee you if he had continued he would not have got the
:15:37. > :15:41.same amount. But it has gone backwards. It has 34% unemployment,
:15:42. > :15:44.double that when you look at youth unemployment. The gap between the
:15:45. > :15:52.richist and poorest is wider than ever. When the UK had 1%, how much
:15:53. > :15:56.did you lose? When China, had the recession, more than five million
:15:57. > :16:01.jobs China lost, America, when they went down when the real problem
:16:02. > :16:05.started how many jobs were lost? How many times did the Government have
:16:06. > :16:08.to stabilise the banks and they didn't call it nationalisation, they
:16:09. > :16:12.put money in. How many times did it happen. Why should it be different
:16:13. > :16:16.if it happened in South Africa? The same thing happens all over the
:16:17. > :16:20.world. If it is South Africa it must be different. 23 years of democracy,
:16:21. > :16:27.South Africa must be given credit. Thank you very much.
:16:28. > :16:30.If the ANC loses the next election the man most likely to be South
:16:31. > :16:34.Africa's President. The party the Democratic Alliance is the biggest
:16:35. > :16:40.in opposition, it is shedding its reputation for being party for white
:16:41. > :16:45.liberal. Black voter disillusion join its ranks, he joins us now,
:16:46. > :16:51.warm welcome to the programme. Thank you for joining us. You heard from
:16:52. > :16:58.the treasurer who says that Jacob Zuma will survive this? It shows the
:16:59. > :17:04.fact that Jacob Zuma is no longer an exception to the ANC. He has
:17:05. > :17:09.captured the entire organisation, in fact the leadership of the am NC now
:17:10. > :17:13.exists to serve Jacob Zuma. So, it is in fact becoming more and more
:17:14. > :17:18.so, that it is not just about the turn vial of Jacob Zuma, it's a
:17:19. > :17:23.question of how quickly can we get rid of the ANC? This is no longer
:17:24. > :17:29.the party of Nelson Mandela, this is a party that has changed.
:17:30. > :17:33.Fundamentally. Now it has become as what former President Mbeki
:17:34. > :17:36.described as an I noble parasitic organisation. I think the symptoms
:17:37. > :17:42.thereof are starting to become more and more evident. If it's a
:17:43. > :17:50.parasite, why isn't your party cutting through? We are. You can
:17:51. > :17:54.recall and we are governing a major city as in the city of Cape Town,
:17:55. > :17:58.the province or the state that Cape Town is in, in that space we are
:17:59. > :18:01.showing more than anything our capability if being able to govern
:18:02. > :18:06.and unemployment is on the decline there. We are showing profound
:18:07. > :18:12.growth. If you look at the number, as reflected in the last elections
:18:13. > :18:21.in 2014, we took the ANC from 64% to 53%. Our party has grown now, to
:18:22. > :18:26.become the most credible alternative for South African and alternative
:18:27. > :18:29.from the ANC. So we are the alternative. We are the only party
:18:30. > :18:34.South African can look to for change. I am confident as I sit
:18:35. > :18:38.here, that not only in real numbers of real substantive growth but in
:18:39. > :18:41.people, and the increase in our membership shows that we are growing
:18:42. > :18:47.and we growing across all sectors of society. Yet the truth is, that
:18:48. > :18:52.there is you will recognise a loyalty to the ANC because of
:18:53. > :18:56.Mandela that goes way beyond party politics, it goes to the fabric of
:18:57. > :19:01.the free country itself. That is almost impossible to break for you,
:19:02. > :19:06.isn't it? It is a very significant thing we have someone like someone
:19:07. > :19:10.like President Manila who is a fairly strong person ear, --
:19:11. > :19:15.Mandela. People respect him. What is also become clear is that, the ANC
:19:16. > :19:20.is busy on a project of undermining his legacy. And what we are starting
:19:21. > :19:24.to see is that more and more people are saying, yet, we honour our past,
:19:25. > :19:29.we honour Nelson Mandela but we want to look for a future. 8.9 million
:19:30. > :19:35.South Africans cannot find work in this country, and in fact, when you
:19:36. > :19:40.even interrogate that even more, 60% of that, are young people. These are
:19:41. > :19:44.young people who some of them have lived in an ANC Government, yet they
:19:45. > :19:47.haven't experienced a true fruit of freedom. It is that generation of
:19:48. > :19:52.South African gruet we have to present a future Chard. -- youth.
:19:53. > :19:56.Whereas -- few char towards. If you look at the numbers as recent as ten
:19:57. > :19:59.years ark South Africans would have felt we were heading in the right
:20:00. > :20:03.direction. More and more now, more and more people are starting to feel
:20:04. > :20:06.like we are not heading in the right direction, and the economic
:20:07. > :20:12.indicators are there, the governance indicators are there and seriously,
:20:13. > :20:16.the corruption issue is starting to dismantle, that legacy of President
:20:17. > :20:20.Nelson Mandela. You need a substantial proportion of the black
:20:21. > :20:24.vote do that, and for many, black South African, that may seem
:20:25. > :20:30.treacherous. I want to reemphasise the fact that it is getting less and
:20:31. > :20:34.less so. Many black South Africans have an appetite for Mandela's
:20:35. > :20:37.vision of a non-racial party. They can see that the ANC is spewing off
:20:38. > :20:40.messaging about saying if you are black you must be in this party, if
:20:41. > :20:47.you are white you must be in this party. Whereas they there are still
:20:48. > :20:52.South Africans who say I am still attracted to a vision only the DA is
:20:53. > :20:55.articulating of a South Africa for all race, a diverse South Africa.
:20:56. > :21:01.Yes, we do need a substantial part, I am not here saying to anybody,
:21:02. > :21:04.that it is going to happen in the next, in these immediate election,
:21:05. > :21:07.but what we have learned about liberation movements, even with
:21:08. > :21:13.great and powerful leader, strong leaders such as Nelson Mandela, is
:21:14. > :21:17.that over a period of a 30 year window they lose legitimacy with
:21:18. > :21:20.people because they fail to deliver on the most basic fundamentals, we
:21:21. > :21:24.see big man politics playing themselves out in Africa. We are
:21:25. > :21:30.seeing more and more of this race mobilisation and it has become an
:21:31. > :21:34.arsenal that the ANC is using more, which is indication of a desperate
:21:35. > :21:40.party, there are is more numbers coming onboard and a diverse group
:21:41. > :21:44.of people who say they are not selle for the polarising vow, we believe
:21:45. > :21:50.it is the best vehicle to take South Africa forward.
:21:51. > :21:52.-- settling. Jonathan rose that will was listening to that. Do you think
:21:53. > :21:58.the opposition is right where they say they could spell the end of the
:21:59. > :22:04.ANC now? Or has it got a long way to go in power? A lot of rural voter,
:22:05. > :22:10.older voters see the ANC as the party of liberation and the arty of
:22:11. > :22:13.Nelson Mandela, so I think we will see the opposition making gains and
:22:14. > :22:18.one will see them making further gains in 2019, but I don't think
:22:19. > :22:24.this is the end of the ANC by a long shot. Is it the end of Zuma. That is
:22:25. > :22:27.the challenge, the ANC is, you know, deeply divided at the moment. It is
:22:28. > :22:33.divided between a group of people who are happy to go along with the
:22:34. > :22:37.Jacob Zuma vision of the party, which, he is turning into a
:22:38. > :22:41.patronage machine. The serious part of the ANC needs to make up its
:22:42. > :22:45.mind, does it want to pursue this man, not to the end of the party and
:22:46. > :22:51.in the immediate term, but, you know, over the longer term, yes,
:22:52. > :22:56.this is a turning pointed for the ANC and it has to choose which way
:22:57. > :23:00.it wants to go. Jonathan, thank you. Now it is some time for the story of
:23:01. > :23:05.the week and some you may have missed. This time the week in
:23:06. > :23:09.hashtags. Time for the world's week in hashtags with help from our
:23:10. > :23:15.friends at BBC trending. I stand with hate speech has been trending
:23:16. > :23:19.in the US. This is not in fact as shocking as it might first seem.
:23:20. > :23:25.Reacting to a crackdown on hate speech by social media sites, users
:23:26. > :23:37.have been Miking the point stifling free speech is bad. Not even agreed.
:23:38. > :23:39.Try beating me. Lightly. In Pakistan the council of Islamic ideology
:23:40. > :23:41.advised the Government that e. Lightly. In Pakistan the council of
:23:42. > :23:43.Islamic ideology advised the Government that husbands should be
:23:44. > :23:45.allowed to "Lightly beat" their wives.
:23:46. > :23:50.In response, Pakistani women have been rallying behind the hashtag,
:23:51. > :23:52.outlining how they would WLINE In response, Pakistani women have been
:23:53. > :23:55.rallying behind the hashtag, outlining how they would respond if
:23:56. > :23:57.someone tried to "Lightly beat them." I will make sure it is the
:23:58. > :24:04.last thing you ever do in your pathetic life.
:24:05. > :24:09.No gulag for Putin. Twitter cancelled this parody account. Cue
:24:10. > :24:15.outrage, before too long the account was reinstated. Time to celebrate.
:24:16. > :24:22.Finally, this one has taken off again. Get us out now. A protestor
:24:23. > :24:28.tries to burn down the EU flag but because of regulation it is flame
:24:29. > :24:35.proof. Let us chat to our panel now.
:24:36. > :24:39.Rebecca Nicholson is with us. Lovely to have you both here. You have been
:24:40. > :24:43.looking at the world in maps and the rise of nationalism in particular.
:24:44. > :24:47.Indeed. Europe is ground zero for this some might say, it has more
:24:48. > :24:51.separatist movements than any continent in the world. You have
:24:52. > :24:56.been hearing about Scotland and Cataluna, many people may not know
:24:57. > :25:00.that Venice and Sardinia have had self determination movements as
:25:01. > :25:04.well. There are varying degrees of their push to independence. The ones
:25:05. > :25:08.I have mentioned have not been allowedtor, Italy and Spain have
:25:09. > :25:12.been suppressing the effort, but they are become morgue and more a
:25:13. > :25:17.autonomous, a what their plans include is as soon as they would
:25:18. > :25:21.become independent the first thing they would do join the EU. It is
:25:22. > :25:24.fascinating while we are sitting about talking about Brexit, here are
:25:25. > :25:29.the here movements that want to split way to join the EU. Just as a
:25:30. > :25:35.point of fact, the EU is expanding. There are more countries that are
:25:36. > :25:40.lining up to join the EU. So it is interesting, within the same
:25:41. > :25:44.continent, within the same cultural sphere you have different
:25:45. > :25:47.perspectives. Europe is bucking the trend compared to other parts of the
:25:48. > :25:55.world. Rebecca, drug, you will talk to us about drugs. Yes, Legal high,
:25:56. > :26:00.There was a big survey conducted over the course of 12 years in the
:26:01. > :26:03.United States, and one of the findings was that young people
:26:04. > :26:08.aren't smoking cannabis to the extent that perhaps their parents
:26:09. > :26:12.were or that might have been expected, because the US legalised
:26:13. > :26:17.medicinal use in 1996. They have been rolling out state by state a
:26:18. > :26:21.broader attitude shall we say towards smoking cannabis, and, yes,
:26:22. > :26:25.the finding is that young people really aren't taking it up as much
:26:26. > :26:31.as would have been thought, which is incons forecast to Europe, the
:26:32. > :26:34.European drugs survey, -- contrast, it measures attitudes towards drug
:26:35. > :26:38.consumption in Europe, and it very much not the case there, drug use
:26:39. > :26:42.doesn't seem to be declining in any way, and in fact it is becoming more
:26:43. > :26:49.complex, because of so-called legal high, which are now in the UK,
:26:50. > :26:53.illegal highs once again. But they have been made illegal thanks to the
:26:54. > :26:57.psychoactive substances ban, act, which has banned anything in the UK,
:26:58. > :27:02.now that has a psychoactive effect on the mind, so there was a
:27:03. > :27:07.dangerous moment at the beginning of discussions about this in bill form,
:27:08. > :27:11.when tea and coffee almost became banned in the UK because nobody
:27:12. > :27:16.thought that caffeine counted as a psychoactive drug when of course it
:27:17. > :27:20.has an effect on the mind. Somebody has probably got a pay rise just in
:27:21. > :27:28.time We could have been a different nation had our tea been taken away.
:27:29. > :27:35.Another story is Disruptive technology, we are seeing Saudi
:27:36. > :27:38.taking a hold. Whether it is sovereign wealth funds, there is a
:27:39. > :27:42.lot of cash out there borrowed at low interest rates and is looking
:27:43. > :27:46.for the big disruptive companies to invest in that have reached n the
:27:47. > :27:54.case of uber-an enormous scale in a short amount of time. Uber-wants to
:27:55. > :27:57.acquire larger fleets of released vehicles, their companies,
:27:58. > :28:02.Governments such as Saudi rareia providing the capital to buy up and
:28:03. > :28:07.to release out to Uber- these vehicles, if you choose to become a
:28:08. > :28:11.driver you don't need your car you can release one at low cost or for
:28:12. > :28:16.free, it will be subsidised by Goldman Sachs and Saudi Arabia and
:28:17. > :28:19.the other investors the and released at low cost or for free, it will be
:28:20. > :28:22.subsidised by Goldman Sachs and Saudi Arabia and the other investors
:28:23. > :28:24.the and released to you by Uber-. Is your a sense that the western
:28:25. > :28:26.Governments are going to start getting nervous about ueper now?
:28:27. > :28:29.They are very nervous about them. This is the next chapter. I won't
:28:30. > :28:34.say a nail in the coffin. It's the reverse. They are win morgue cases
:28:35. > :28:38.or situation or confrontation, with Governments than it is losing, you
:28:39. > :28:42.know, here in Europe there is a tough line that is taken because of
:28:43. > :28:46.the influence of regulators and taxi unions and so forth, but generally
:28:47. > :28:52.speaking round the world it is gaining and gaining market share on
:28:53. > :28:58.a daily basis. Rebecca, brings us to my no link at all favourite story.
:28:59. > :29:04.The vegan cafe bombarded by sausages. This is in Georgia, and I
:29:05. > :29:10.didn't realise there would be a vegan cafe necessarily in Georgia
:29:11. > :29:15.but there is. Protestors this week threw sausages on to the plates of
:29:16. > :29:20.horrified diners which is a funny story and led to several amuseums
:29:21. > :29:23.headlines but there is a more sinister undertone in it was far
:29:24. > :29:27.right nationalists attacking the cafe and there had been reports that
:29:28. > :29:34.people had been in the cafe weeks before asking if it was frequented
:29:35. > :29:39.by LGBT customers. So political... It was, and it turned violent
:29:40. > :29:44.because throwing sausages on to a vegan's plate may well turn violent,
:29:45. > :29:45.but yes, slightly sinister undertones to what appeared to be a
:29:46. > :29:54.comical headline. Now it's time to think again. Our
:29:55. > :30:00.short strand where film-makers give their spin. This one is about fear.
:30:01. > :30:08.Is it wrong to be scared of terrorism? Today we hear a lot about
:30:09. > :30:14.the politics of fear. Fear... Terrorism... Attacks against
:30:15. > :30:18.the wet. That is not new.
:30:19. > :30:22.The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
:30:23. > :30:29.We think of fear as something toxic, dangerous, to be avoided or
:30:30. > :30:33.repressed. It is true, irrational fear is the fear of terrorist
:30:34. > :30:39.attacks, it can have damaging consequences. By being so afraid of
:30:40. > :30:45.terrorist atrocities, we overstate the danger that they pose to our
:30:46. > :30:51.societies, therefore we behave irrationally, from allowing fear to
:30:52. > :30:58.contrain the way we travel and live to imposing draconian security
:30:59. > :31:03.measures and to spending trillions on military adventures meant to make
:31:04. > :31:08.us feel secure. But in the wet, the chances of being kid by a terrorist
:31:09. > :31:13.attack are very small indeed. In reality, people are more likely to
:31:14. > :31:18.be killed by heart disease, complications resulting from obesity
:31:19. > :31:24.or just every day domestic accidents, meaning it would be more
:31:25. > :31:27.rational to invest more heavily in medical research, than in endless
:31:28. > :31:38.security infrastructure. We have to ensure that fear is not simply a
:31:39. > :31:41.tool, used by those who want to insight irrational hatreds and
:31:42. > :31:47.prejudice. We need to reclaim the politics of fear.
:31:48. > :31:53.I am joined in our studio by Amartya Sen.
:31:54. > :31:58.One of the world's leading intellectuals, economists and
:31:59. > :32:07.philosopher. Here is his background. Amartya Sen was born to a Bank of
:32:08. > :32:12.England alley family. So moved by the deprivation he saw growing up,
:32:13. > :32:19.he wanted to help. The his work earned him a Nobel Prize in 1988. He
:32:20. > :32:25.wanted to help poverty to improve conditions for the poor. Rejecting
:32:26. > :32:32.the notion of GDP as the best measure of wealth and well being, he
:32:33. > :32:39.helped to create the UN development for the human index.
:32:40. > :32:42.Amartya Sen, welcome to This Week's World.
:32:43. > :32:44.We've seen the emergence here in London of a global rich.
:32:45. > :32:50.The gap, it seems has never been wider of those
:32:51. > :32:58.The existence of rich people as such is
:32:59. > :33:01.not something that I find in itself an objectionable thing.
:33:02. > :33:07.I think it could be good that in the democratic
:33:08. > :33:09.debate there is a lot which is just anti-rich,
:33:10. > :33:14.What sort of rhetoric are you hearing that
:33:15. > :33:25.I think by and large, I think Bernie Sanders has done a
:33:26. > :33:27.great deal to burden democratic American discussion.
:33:28. > :33:37.On the other hand, in it, the tone, which could be seen as
:33:38. > :33:43.being emphasising the punitive aspect of dealing with the
:33:44. > :33:45.super-rich, rather than the supportive aspect of making the
:33:46. > :33:47.lives of everyone and the poorest much better.
:33:48. > :33:50.I think Bernie Sanders has raised a lot of interesting
:33:51. > :33:54.At this time I would wish that the battle lines were
:33:55. > :34:07.I think Bernie Sanders, has really made
:34:08. > :34:10.change in democratic politics which I applaud
:34:11. > :34:24.and would like to see, but
:34:25. > :34:28.I think that the time for him is to move on from there.
:34:29. > :34:31.judgment it is quite nice to watch Trump,
:34:32. > :34:34.even though he is scary too, so it is an exciting time.
:34:35. > :34:38.I fear we like to have some excitement to see what is going on!
:34:39. > :34:41.One of the debates we are having, currently is about national identity
:34:42. > :34:44.and how we see ourselves here in terms of Brexit, EU referendum.
:34:45. > :34:47.If you take a view, which seems to be easy to take,
:34:48. > :34:48.that it is possible to
:34:49. > :34:50.have a strong British identity along with
:34:51. > :34:51.a certain amount of pride in
:34:52. > :34:57.If you think about everything Britain
:34:58. > :34:59.did, for example, they did have a war,
:35:00. > :35:10.The big things that happened immediately
:35:11. > :35:16.after the war with the NHS, the welfare state, and in that, the
:35:17. > :35:17.British have been very innovative, not only
:35:18. > :35:28.drawing on the richness of
:35:29. > :35:31.their own ideas but they were drawing on Karl and Marx
:35:32. > :35:33.and Bismarck who had all written about the
:35:34. > :35:35.There was no contradiction between Britishness
:35:36. > :35:39.with the acknowledgement of a European presence in one's life.
:35:40. > :35:46.Do you think that Britain could flourish under Brexit?
:35:47. > :35:49.The argument that Britain can flourish better
:35:50. > :36:06.And I'm surprised to see how many economists agree on that, usually
:36:07. > :36:09.Yanis Varoufakis said last week economists get everything.
:36:10. > :36:12.We have now all predicted that Brexit will be bad,
:36:13. > :36:14.why does anyone listen to economists?
:36:15. > :36:18.I like Yanis a lot but I have to say I don't
:36:19. > :36:21.think it is the case no-one saw there was a crisis coming.
:36:22. > :36:26.They did not know when it would come but
:36:27. > :36:34.there was a lot of discussion as to how unsustainable the prosperity of
:36:35. > :36:43.That's an easy argument - can Britain do better
:36:44. > :36:50.It doesn't mean there would be a disaster,
:36:51. > :36:51.a famine, but it will do
:36:52. > :36:56.The main problem is to deny a heritage
:36:57. > :36:57.which has made Europe what
:36:58. > :37:04.The British and the French maybe in the imperial days, fighting
:37:05. > :37:06.in different parts in Africa and in my own country,
:37:07. > :37:09.India and so on, yet they were drawing on similarities of
:37:10. > :37:14.thought which crossed the channels all the time.
:37:15. > :37:20.So I think if one misses out, the way European culture
:37:21. > :37:22.has interacted with each other, then one
:37:23. > :37:24.is missing out a lot of the
:37:25. > :37:31.But people often say Norway did not join the European
:37:32. > :37:46.Not joining is different from quitting.
:37:47. > :37:47.Quitting, the jilted suitor is never comparable
:37:48. > :37:51.And you think there would be revenge on the jilted suitor?
:37:52. > :38:01.I don't think there would be revenge but there
:38:02. > :38:04.would be disrespect and all kinds of nice English words for it,
:38:05. > :38:11.I would have to get my little flossry of Shakespeare to see
:38:12. > :38:14.I would have to get my little glossary of Shakespeare to see
:38:15. > :38:16.how many different ways you can express
:38:17. > :38:19.revenge but which has the absence of love in it
:38:20. > :38:28.That is it for This Week's World. We asked last week, is Putin trying to
:38:29. > :38:36.break up the EU? It has become the most watched video on a site. One
:38:37. > :38:40.watching was Russia Today, they put out their own version.
:38:41. > :38:52.See what you think. What is Putin accused of?
:38:53. > :39:02.Weaponising Marine mammals. Russia plans to spend $at that,000 on five
:39:03. > :39:05.Bottlenosed dolphins. Moscow is silent on the issue.
:39:06. > :39:12.It's home to a million people at any one time,
:39:13. > :39:17.burns around ?150 billion worth of jet fuel