:00:21. > :00:24.Welcome to This Week's World - tasked with turning your gentle
:00:25. > :00:25.Saturday teatime into a meaty doorstopper sandwich
:00:26. > :00:34.We'll be looking at the parrot who could be a vital witness
:00:35. > :00:37.to murder, the footballing nations you'll never find in the Euros and -
:00:38. > :00:39.in the week ABBA reformed - we've been to Sweden.
:00:40. > :00:42.This week we turn the spotlight on Saudi Arabia - do we like doing
:00:43. > :00:51.How comfortable are we having them as allies?
:00:52. > :00:53.From increased executions, to a tanking economy under
:00:54. > :00:55.a new King, it's been a remarkable year in Saudi Arabia.
:00:56. > :00:58.We report from there and ask if we can believe
:00:59. > :01:02.Plus, how does Kim Jong Un of North Korea get the money
:01:03. > :01:05.We meet the foreign businessmen who keep him
:01:06. > :01:09.Before that, what other stories have made the week and here are ours.
:01:10. > :01:13.On show five of This Week's World, it's time for a week in numbers.
:01:14. > :01:15.14,000 - that's the sum of mourners at Mumammad Ali's
:01:16. > :01:25.20 minutes of action - that's how the father of this
:01:26. > :01:26.Stamford student referred to his son's criminal behaviour
:01:27. > :01:29.after he was convicted of rape - cue global outrage with both
:01:30. > :01:32.When the sentencing came out, people lost faith
:01:33. > :01:41.6-5 - the penalty score that held Abkhazia as victors
:01:42. > :01:44.in the unrecognised States of the World World Cup.
:01:45. > :01:48.Forget the Euros - these are the ones that really count.
:01:49. > :01:50.40,000 - the number of people London's first naked restaurant
:01:51. > :01:57.Diners are told to liberate themselves by leaving
:01:58. > :02:02.Five - the number of times a Michigan man was shot,
:02:03. > :02:07.The witness, his pet parrot, Budd, who can't stop
:02:08. > :02:15.Now, the family want the parrot on the witness stand.
:02:16. > :02:18.Our panelists today are Emma Barnet, she's been tech and women's editor
:02:19. > :02:21.at the Daily Telegraph and will soon be hosting a daily daytime
:02:22. > :02:31.With her, the journalist and acclaimed author, Tahmima Anam.
:02:32. > :02:39.Talk us through the burn of the week. Bernie Saunders is dropping
:02:40. > :02:43.out of the Democratic presidential nomination. Hillary has declared
:02:44. > :02:47.herself and has been declared the nominee. I don't think he's
:02:48. > :02:51.burnt-out. I was a huge Bernie supporter. He made a huge impact on
:02:52. > :02:56.American politics. It was great to have a conversation that was so
:02:57. > :03:01.Anthony-Trum also he was from outside the establishment.
:03:02. > :03:08.Anti--Hillary in parts? Was. It I think that now is the time for
:03:09. > :03:12.people to rally behind Hillary. This is a moment for women. Even if she
:03:13. > :03:17.doesn't want to do that. Part of being the first woman to go for this
:03:18. > :03:22.office is that you have to own that, but, at the same time, be like I'm
:03:23. > :03:27.the candidate, never mind my gender shechl can't sort of win, I feel.
:03:28. > :03:37.People are writing saying - how can she be one of the people wearing a
:03:38. > :03:42.$112,000 jacket. When she looks like rushish they say we can't voter. Her
:03:43. > :03:47.is gender is often against her. She went on TV to show her warm side
:03:48. > :03:52.with pre-planned photos of her grandchild. She used to sing to her
:03:53. > :03:56.own daughter. Ittic aches you want to be sick. I don't know how you
:03:57. > :04:00.feel about. It I don't need my politicians to be warm and look
:04:01. > :04:09.good, I need them to be good at politics. She is read as being a
:04:10. > :04:14.product of the political machinery for better or worse. She is really
:04:15. > :04:19.going to have to address that to bale Donald Trump. Centre stage it's
:04:20. > :04:25.interesting to see what in Turkey Erdogan is doing now, the fanfare of
:04:26. > :04:30.who he is? Absolutely. Everyone is trying promote himself as a
:04:31. > :04:38.pan-Islamic leader. You note he was supposed to speak at Muhammad Ali's
:04:39. > :04:42.funeral but has been uninvited, partly due to the sexist comments he
:04:43. > :04:48.made last week. A woman being uncomplete if she chooses to work
:04:49. > :04:58.without having children. I'm incomplete. The whitewash? The
:04:59. > :05:07.writer of the Gladiator film wants to make a film about Rumi. He
:05:08. > :05:12.claimed he would last to cast, Leonard owe Dee cap Rio. People are
:05:13. > :05:17.outraged about this. Un-Persian characters you can imagine? Because
:05:18. > :05:21.they're white. One is Iron Man. People are outraged about this. It's
:05:22. > :05:27.typical Hollywood whitewashing. This isn't just a story that he has
:05:28. > :05:30.written a fictional story. It's a historical figure, a poet revered
:05:31. > :05:34.throughout history and all over the world. He is known to be like the
:05:35. > :05:40.most popular poet in the United States. To really - he claims he
:05:41. > :05:45.wants to do this to change sterotypes about Muslims. To do this
:05:46. > :05:50.by casting two white actors as the main characters seems pointless. If
:05:51. > :05:57.he was seeking the publicity he has probably got it now. Emma, holiday
:05:58. > :06:01.snap of the There are three week. Guys they put online they had got
:06:02. > :06:07.misguided in their trip on a boat. Had ended up in Syria. They took
:06:08. > :06:12.some photos in front of graffitied walls. Media outlets fell for it
:06:13. > :06:17.saying it was the big boat trip that went wrong. They were drunk, having
:06:18. > :06:24.a laugh. Came out on Facebook it was a prank. At a time not to be
:06:25. > :06:28.joyless, good for them, they made the headlines for the wrong reasons.
:06:29. > :06:31.When we are dealing with an unusual amount of displaced people from
:06:32. > :06:35.those parts of the world that are suffering immensely, it wasn't the
:06:36. > :06:40.coolest prank. So many people have died trying to get here. To imagine
:06:41. > :06:47.one would fall asleep and wake up in Syria is ridiculous. Stranger things
:06:48. > :06:53.have happened on the internet. I suppose so. Thank you.
:06:54. > :06:57.Facing allegations this week it bullied and blackmailed the UN
:06:58. > :06:59.until it was removed from a Human Rights blacklist.
:07:00. > :07:02.But it's also a country in the midst of massive political
:07:03. > :07:06.A country made rich on oil may now have to rethink its future
:07:07. > :07:09.And, it's a country fighting an illegal war in Yemen.
:07:10. > :07:12.Just over a year ago, a new King was crowned.
:07:13. > :07:14.Have a look at what happened inside Saudi since.
:07:15. > :07:16.The economy has tanked, shown in falling government
:07:17. > :07:20.And, at the same time, the numbers of people thought to be
:07:21. > :07:21.executed in the Kingdom has risen dramatically.
:07:22. > :07:24.We dedicate much of this edition of This Week's World to exploring
:07:25. > :07:26.Saudi and its relations with the West.
:07:27. > :07:29.The Deputy Crown Prince has laid out his vision of economic reforms,
:07:30. > :07:30.but political repression is on the up.
:07:31. > :07:33.Saudi journalist, Safaa Al Ahmed, looks at what the government
:07:34. > :07:56.It's a lesson you learn quickly in Saudi Arabia.
:07:57. > :08:07.To be publicly critical of the Saudi government can land
:08:08. > :08:19.In the past year, the government has become even more oppressive.
:08:20. > :08:25.Taha has represented some of the most high-profile
:08:26. > :08:44.Most notably, Nimr al-Nimr, who was executed on 2nd
:08:45. > :08:51.Nimr's nephew, Ali, was arrested when he was 17 years
:08:52. > :09:01.Since the beginning of 2016 there were the executions of 47
:09:02. > :09:05.people and all of these cases I could guarantee are,
:09:06. > :09:19.Regardless if these people have done something wrong or not.
:09:20. > :09:21.Abdulaziz represented some of the most iconic Saudi
:09:22. > :09:27.The message, at least to me, is clear is -
:09:28. > :09:30.regardless of where you come from in Saudi Arabia
:09:31. > :09:33.and what is your background, what is your ideology
:09:34. > :09:37.and if you are from the majority or the minority, if you oppose
:09:38. > :09:41.the government you might face this end.
:09:42. > :09:45.Many of the 47 cases were held in what is called
:09:46. > :10:00.The job for this Specialised Criminal Court is to make anyone
:10:01. > :10:07.If the Minister of Interior himself has been sent to this
:10:08. > :10:13.Specialised Criminal Court, he will be found guilty.
:10:14. > :10:18.One of those found guilty by the court and executed was a minor.
:10:19. > :10:21.It is a clear violation of Saudi Arabia's obligations
:10:22. > :10:47.Not only minors are put in jail, even the elderly have
:10:48. > :10:55.Sulaimanl-Rashoodi was a judge for two decades, was sentenced to 15
:10:56. > :10:58.years in prison for the crime of breaking allegiance
:10:59. > :11:08.His lawyer, Abdulaziz, has also paid a high price.
:11:09. > :11:11.Two days after the government sent two of my clients to prison,
:11:12. > :11:17.So I had to decide between prison and exile.
:11:18. > :11:20.I believed that I will be more useful in exile than in prison,
:11:21. > :11:27.Abdulaziz and Taha are among many who ended up taking the path
:11:28. > :11:42.of exile rather than be silenced in Saudi jails.
:11:43. > :11:44.It's not just human rights inside the country.
:11:45. > :11:47.This week the UN included Saudi on its list of government forces
:11:48. > :11:49.blacklisted for causing the death of children in Yemen and then
:11:50. > :11:52.appeared to row back under pressure, the suspicion is, from Saudi
:11:53. > :11:57.Meanwhie, public outrage towards the country and its human
:11:58. > :11:59.rights stance is growing and governments around the world
:12:00. > :12:03.I went to Sweden - which embraces a self-styled
:12:04. > :12:06.feminist foreign policy - and spoke to Foreign Secretary
:12:07. > :12:07.and former EU Commissioner, Margot Wallstom
:12:08. > :12:10.slapped down by Riyadh last year after referring to Saudi
:12:11. > :12:27.I was not the only one who criticised the flogging of a
:12:28. > :12:33.blogger. I think that it has to be seen in the context of a long
:12:34. > :12:39.history, also the previous Swedish government had with Saudi Arabia
:12:40. > :12:45.over weapons exports. I think that gave us a particular role. So, of
:12:46. > :12:53.course, that criticism, I think, also hurt them more and was felt the
:12:54. > :13:00.more. So they took their Ambassador home and also I had been invited to
:13:01. > :13:06.give a speech in Cairo, then Saudi Arabia did not want me to give my
:13:07. > :13:11.speech there. It turned into a spat. They know very well what we think
:13:12. > :13:18.about democracy and human rights. But we also need to have diplomatic
:13:19. > :13:25.and political and economic ties because we believe in free trade and
:13:26. > :13:30.open economic contact also between our countries. In terms of the sale
:13:31. > :13:37.of arms from Sweden to Saudi Arabia, are you happy to see that continue?
:13:38. > :13:42.We are now introducing also a much stricter regulation and laws on
:13:43. > :13:49.trading with weapons so there will be criteria of democracy in our
:13:50. > :13:59.legislation. This will also mean that we have new, sort of,
:14:00. > :14:02.restrictions or new requirements for entering into trade deals alsos with
:14:03. > :14:11.countries that might have a problem living up to the democratic
:14:12. > :14:16.criteria. I think the world needs to - especially the European Union, has
:14:17. > :14:22.to come back to the fact that we are a value based union. That this is
:14:23. > :14:25.where it has always started. We believe in human rights and
:14:26. > :14:31.democracy. I think this is the problem that today this has been
:14:32. > :14:34.pushed aside. I think that the national interests and the economic
:14:35. > :14:46.interests tend to take over. ?900 million worth of trade between
:14:47. > :14:53.Saudi and Sweden, does that strike you as the right number? No, we
:14:54. > :14:59.believe in free trade, we believe in economic contacts that are good. So
:15:00. > :15:05.I think Swedish companies know they can invest in Saudi Arabia and I
:15:06. > :15:14.believe it's good to have trade. So if people said a year ago here was
:15:15. > :15:20.this strong voice criticising human rights is, cutting short the arms
:15:21. > :15:27.deal at the time, and really making Saudi Arabia know how you felt about
:15:28. > :15:33.it. A year later it seems to be non-lysed. They know where we stand.
:15:34. > :15:38.-- normalised. They know very well what we think. It feels like you are
:15:39. > :15:44.growing back and you are worried about trade. No, not at all. I was
:15:45. > :15:51.not worried about it at the time either. We have always had a trade
:15:52. > :15:58.with Saudi Arabia, but the military agreement was finished. That is also
:15:59. > :16:02.a sign, and they know we will have a much stricter recommendation when it
:16:03. > :16:08.comes to trading with countries that are not democracies. You have
:16:09. > :16:12.famously implemented in this country a feminist foreign policy. What does
:16:13. > :16:19.that mean to you, and how does it change how you make decisions? It
:16:20. > :16:25.means we define it as a security issue. I think it's everywhere. It's
:16:26. > :16:31.a welcome policy. It's not that difficult, because if you put those
:16:32. > :16:37.lenses on, you will see the world from a women's perspective. You will
:16:38. > :16:39.see there is still so much discrimination and violence against
:16:40. > :16:42.women everywhere. And we have to change that.
:16:43. > :16:46.The falling price of oil and massive government expenditure is making
:16:47. > :16:48.Saudi redesign its entire economy before crisis sets in.
:16:49. > :16:51.Oil accounts for 70% of government revenue.
:16:52. > :16:53.If prices don't recover, the IMF is predicting the country
:16:54. > :16:59.This week the Saudi Cabinet formally ratified Vision 2030 -
:17:00. > :17:06.the Deputy Crown Prince's vision for the country's post-oil plan.
:17:07. > :20:57.Safa has worked extensively in the region and Yemen.
:20:58. > :21:02.I mentioned the political and economic plan they called vision
:21:03. > :21:08.2030, is there reason to feel optimistic worried about Saudi
:21:09. > :21:12.Arabia now? Sadly and very pessimistic about what is lacking in
:21:13. > :21:18.vision 2030. Before it came out a lot of people were looking forward
:21:19. > :21:23.to the vision, but the focus was purely economical with a bit of
:21:24. > :21:27.social reform. The challenge economic elite inside the country,
:21:28. > :21:36.the rate of unemployment, these have been going on for several years. --
:21:37. > :21:39.the challenge economic way. The challenge over the last year has
:21:40. > :21:43.been the war with Yemen and we do not know when that will end. There
:21:44. > :21:47.are no rights in Saudi Arabia to criticise the war or question
:21:48. > :21:51.whether we should even be in the war, how much money is being spent
:21:52. > :21:54.on the war. Both the economic and political questions inside the
:21:55. > :21:57.country and externally are quite important at the moment.
:21:58. > :21:59.Fahad Nazer was at the Saudi Embassy in Washington
:22:00. > :22:11.Lets start with those allegations of bullying, threats, pressure and even
:22:12. > :22:16.blackmail against the UN after it placed Saudi on its human rights
:22:17. > :22:21.blacklist for violations in Yemen. Your thoughts. I think it's
:22:22. > :22:33.understandable that the Saudi Coral objected to a century being lumped
:22:34. > :22:39.in in the same list with the Huthis, who it's well documented for many
:22:40. > :22:43.years have used Child soldiers, targeting schools and hospitals and
:22:44. > :22:53.other civilian targets. Allegations from the UN of pressure, bribery and
:22:54. > :23:00.blackmail, even me mention of a fat wa against the UN. From the
:23:01. > :23:04.perspective of Saudi Arabia, they feel the criticism that has been
:23:05. > :23:07.levelled against them by the international community has been
:23:08. > :23:12.unfair and one-sided. The reality was that Yemen was in fact slowly
:23:13. > :23:17.but surely heading towards yet another Civil War. As the Saudis
:23:18. > :23:22.have maintained, I think they make a compelling case that they went to
:23:23. > :23:28.war in Yemen out of necessity. It was not a war of choice, they had to
:23:29. > :23:32.make a militant organisations. The international community frankly did
:23:33. > :23:40.not show any interest in getting involved in Yemen, so the Saudis
:23:41. > :23:43.took this as a last resort. Reports found 32 air strikes in Yemen
:23:44. > :23:51.violated international humanitarian law. 361 civilian kills, 127 of them
:23:52. > :23:57.were children. I think the Saudis act knowledge that some mistakes
:23:58. > :24:01.have been made, but the argument that the Saudis are targeting
:24:02. > :24:05.civilian centres of population as a matter of policy is not accurate.
:24:06. > :24:09.Keep in mind this is a ten member coalition that has the support of
:24:10. > :24:15.both the United States and United Kingdom. The problem is, when the
:24:16. > :24:18.world looks at what is happening in Saudi and hears stories of how the
:24:19. > :24:29.government in the country has become more oppressive and how the
:24:30. > :24:31.countries accused of using choosing XI lover prison, it doesn't sound
:24:32. > :24:49.like a country trying to reform right now. -- choosing exile over
:24:50. > :24:55.prison. The council was initially composed of 60 members, it now has
:24:56. > :24:59.150 members including 30 women. They have also created a human rights
:25:00. > :25:06.commission. More needs to be done, but I think they have made a
:25:07. > :25:13.concerted and sincere effort to push these reforms forward. So how do you
:25:14. > :25:19.explain the execution of dissident minors or the imprisonment of an
:25:20. > :25:24.elderly judge? There is the focus on a handful of high-profile cases. It
:25:25. > :25:28.gives a somewhat extorted view of what's going on in Saudi Arabia.
:25:29. > :25:34.It's a country of 30 million people. It's a little disheartening to hear
:25:35. > :25:38.some of the reporting in the West. I wouldn't put Saudi Arabia in the
:25:39. > :25:45.same light as North Korea or Syria or Iran, to be honest. In terms of
:25:46. > :25:50.trade, you heard Sweden considering its future in terms of arms deals
:25:51. > :25:53.with Saudi. If Britain or America or Sweden stopped selling arms to
:25:54. > :25:56.Saudi, what difference would it make? I don't think any of the
:25:57. > :26:00.countries you mention have any intention of doing so. The Obama
:26:01. > :26:04.administration has pushed through almost 100 and million dollars worth
:26:05. > :26:10.of weapons deals over the last few years. There is also a lot of
:26:11. > :26:15.military cooperation between Saudi Arabia and the United States and the
:26:16. > :26:21.UK and other countries. I think these relations are long-standing
:26:22. > :26:26.and I think mutually beneficial. You heard the point there that sometimes
:26:27. > :26:29.the West highlights these incidents on a few high-profile cases and
:26:30. > :26:35.there are 30 million people in the country. Do you want to respond? I
:26:36. > :26:39.think choosing these high profile cases is symbolic, and it's a
:26:40. > :26:44.message to the inside that if you do and continue to publicly dissent
:26:45. > :26:49.against the government, this can happen to you as well. Regardless of
:26:50. > :26:54.how the West covers it or not, that's irrelevant to me, it's the
:26:55. > :26:57.message internally. This is the method you use to silence people.
:26:58. > :27:05.There is no system where people can directly impact government policy.
:27:06. > :27:10.Essentially no democracy? Would you like to have the last word? I think
:27:11. > :27:14.with the council, in many ways it does not get enough credit. Over the
:27:15. > :27:18.years, not only has its membership increased, but it has become more
:27:19. > :27:25.representative, it represents every region of the country. I think there
:27:26. > :27:26.are more and more avenues open for people to have a say in the
:27:27. > :27:28.decision-making process. Now, it's time for Think Again -
:27:29. > :27:32.our regular strand of George Bush famously
:27:33. > :27:35.called Africa a country. Meet the blogger in Botswana who,
:27:36. > :27:38.weirdly, thinks he might have I'm hoping that you know that
:27:39. > :27:48.it's not just one giant Africa is 54 separate countries
:27:49. > :27:55.and over 1 billion people. But, historically it's
:27:56. > :27:58.not been that unified. For example, not many people
:27:59. > :28:01.in my country of Botswana know what's happening
:28:02. > :28:05.in Guinea or Morocco or... Last century, black intellectuals
:28:06. > :28:10.like Ghana's independence leader Kwame Nkrumah, founded
:28:11. > :28:13.Pan-Africanism, a desire It kind of ended up just
:28:14. > :28:19.being a bunch of leaders high-fiving It didn't really mean much
:28:20. > :28:25.for ordinary Africans. Now though, we are seeing
:28:26. > :28:29.a new wave of Pan-Africanism. The Internet now has given Africans
:28:30. > :28:35.a tool to unite in ways From the comfort of our own
:28:36. > :28:41.countries, we can now support South African students
:28:42. > :28:43.fighting for cheaper fees, Zimbabwe women marching
:28:44. > :28:46.to Parliament, and we can also support Angolan journalists who just
:28:47. > :28:49.want to do their job. We can swap ideas, and my dream
:28:50. > :28:53.is that young Africans can begin to rescue each other and,
:28:54. > :29:01.ultimately, to rescue ourselves. Now, how does North
:29:02. > :29:03.Korea make its money? The country is under heavy economic
:29:04. > :29:06.sanctions aimed at its nuclear programme, but in fact, its leader,
:29:07. > :29:09.32-year-old Kim Jong-un, has found various still legal
:29:10. > :29:11.ways of trading with The US Treasury is so worried
:29:12. > :29:17.about this trade that it has just decided to increase penalties
:29:18. > :29:19.on all banks that do any But a small group of Western
:29:20. > :29:24.businessmen are quite happy to carry on trading with Pyongyang -
:29:25. > :29:26.unconcerned by the ethics. We focused on building
:29:27. > :29:42.relationships. People who've taken part
:29:43. > :29:45.in our workshops have set up, Actually doing business
:29:46. > :29:57.in North Korea is quite tricky. You have to make sure you're not
:29:58. > :30:03.violating UN sanctions. If you're from a country like the US
:30:04. > :30:06.or Australia, you have to make sure you're not violating
:30:07. > :30:11.your own country's sanctions. So, for the vast majority of Western
:30:12. > :30:14.business people, you look at all those things
:30:15. > :30:17.and you think - well, not now. People are afraid of doing
:30:18. > :30:19.business with North Korea. But, in reality, sanctions do not
:30:20. > :30:24.hamper most of our business. I think before walking into any
:30:25. > :30:26.country and doing business, you need to know a little
:30:27. > :30:29.bit about the history, In North Korea, technically,
:30:30. > :30:44.everything is state-owned. So there's no legal room
:30:45. > :30:46.for somebody to own But under Kim Jong-un they've
:30:47. > :30:53.experimented with having more companies run not on a state plan,
:30:54. > :30:56.but along what we think When you read about Pyongyang
:30:57. > :30:59.nowadays, some people are referring to Manhattan, and they
:31:00. > :31:03.call it Pyonghattan. I've been working with the DPRK
:31:04. > :31:05.for almost 18 years. It's still necessarily, often,
:31:06. > :31:07.to go in and meet face-to-face One of the main challenges
:31:08. > :31:12.with North Korea, the companies in general are not on the Internet,
:31:13. > :31:15.and you need somebody to invite There's a lot of limitations
:31:16. > :31:26.on telephones, so once Emails can be difficult and we don't
:31:27. > :31:38.get responses for a long time. Investment has helped the standard
:31:39. > :31:44.of living for people living in the major cities,
:31:45. > :31:49.as development in any country would generally start,
:31:50. > :31:51.but there's also some trickle down Officially, according
:31:52. > :31:54.to the embargo, we are not allowed But, in reality, you can find
:31:55. > :31:58.champagne very easily. So if the elite wants to buy
:31:59. > :32:01.champagne, they can do it. They are not suffering,
:32:02. > :32:06.but the workers are suffering because they have no jobs
:32:07. > :32:08.and otherwise, without an embargo, Overall, for a country
:32:09. > :32:16.like North Korea, that is relatively isolated, the more bridges you have,
:32:17. > :32:18.the more connections and links you have to
:32:19. > :32:21.the outside world, the better. You would go to stores maybe 10
:32:22. > :32:40.years ago and you would have maybe one variety
:32:41. > :32:43.of some kind of soft drink. Now you go to the department
:32:44. > :32:45.stores and it's filled. Everyone in Pyongyang seems
:32:46. > :32:48.to have a mobile phone. Much more cars, much more
:32:49. > :32:49.restaurants. This is a coffee shop,
:32:50. > :32:51.a joint venture with They are selling coffees
:32:52. > :32:54.which I never dreamed, Joining me now is Victor Cha,
:32:55. > :33:11.former member of the White House Originally from South Korea he was
:33:12. > :33:15.the top adviser on North Korea to President Bush Bush. You will
:33:16. > :33:20.remember what he thought. States like these constitute an access of
:33:21. > :33:26.evil. From 2003 he represented the US as part of the six-party
:33:27. > :33:29.negotiations which ultimately failed to stop Pyongyang developing nuclear
:33:30. > :33:35.weapons. North Korea has carried out four nuclear tests. It's also
:33:36. > :33:43.developed long-range missiles capable of hitting the US. In March
:33:44. > :33:46.the leader Kim Jong-un reabged to further UN sanctions by publicly
:33:47. > :33:52.organised Ordering his nuclear weapons to be ready for use at any
:33:53. > :33:56.time. We have spoken to these private individuals, businessmen,
:33:57. > :34:02.doing trade with North Korea. As long as the companies that we're
:34:03. > :34:06.talking about are not front companies for the revenues from
:34:07. > :34:10.which are used to finance proliferation or human rights'
:34:11. > :34:14.abuses, then they're not technically in violation of sanctions or US law
:34:15. > :34:18.for that matter. But in North Korea the problem is you never know for
:34:19. > :34:24.sure as the piece said, everything in some way is owned by the state.
:34:25. > :34:29.You're just never sure what's behind the front door. Sglp this week we
:34:30. > :34:33.have seen the US Treasury name North Korea as a prime money laundering
:34:34. > :34:37.concern and try and shut down any American bank that is part of that
:34:38. > :34:44.chain. Is that a solution that's going to work? It's certainly a very
:34:45. > :34:50.decisive and significant measure. Where the impact will be, will be
:34:51. > :34:54.third countries. The Chinese, the Russians, others that do have some
:34:55. > :35:00.business with North Korea and that do face the threat of coming under
:35:01. > :35:07.Treasury sanctions or being excluded from the US financial system.
:35:08. > :35:11.Historically we've looked at North Korea's missile test as a joke, they
:35:12. > :35:15.don't have the range, they don't quite have the expertise. Do you
:35:16. > :35:19.sense a lot of worry is for nothing? I'm much more worried today than I
:35:20. > :35:23.was five or seven years ago. I think that's generally the view in the
:35:24. > :35:29.expert community now, both in terms of their nuclear weapons be
:35:30. > :35:32.programmes and the ability to put a nuclear weapon a ballistic missile.
:35:33. > :35:38.These are things that are coming very much within North Korea's focus
:35:39. > :35:41.and they are amassing a significant arsenal. China is key to all of
:35:42. > :35:46.this. Should China be putting more pressure on North Korea to drop its
:35:47. > :35:50.nuclear deterrent? Is it in that country's interest? It's certainly
:35:51. > :35:55.China's obligation and responsibility to play a large role
:35:56. > :35:58.in trying to convince North Korea to give up their nuclear weapons
:35:59. > :36:01.programme. Certainly they worry about the collapse of the regime
:36:02. > :36:06.that will send refugees across the border. The problem with China has
:36:07. > :36:10.always been - are they willing to squeeze North Korea harder and for
:36:11. > :36:14.longer periods of time? That has not been the case in the past. Would you
:36:15. > :36:20.like to see that regime collapse? Certainly this is not a regime that
:36:21. > :36:23.makes sense in the 21st Century. In the end, I think regimes like this
:36:24. > :36:29.eventually collapse of their own weight. It's certainly not the
:36:30. > :36:32.policy of any country to date to try to purposefully collapse North
:36:33. > :36:38.Korea. You know, everybody kind of sits around and waits and watches
:36:39. > :36:41.and tries to defend themself against all the negative (inaudible) of the
:36:42. > :36:46.regime. Would you accept sanctions haven't worked? In the last few
:36:47. > :36:50.weeks Donald Trump said he would talk to Kim Jong-un that has to be
:36:51. > :36:54.right at this point, hasn't it? The problem is not talking with him, the
:36:55. > :36:59.problem now is that they do not want to give up their nuclear weapons
:37:00. > :37:04.programme. The Obama administration has tried. They have reached
:37:05. > :37:08.agreements with Iran, with Cuba, with we are ma. The one outstanding
:37:09. > :37:11.case is North Korea. It's not because we don't want to talk to
:37:12. > :37:15.them. The problem is, they don't want to talk to us. They don't want
:37:16. > :37:16.to talk to the world right now, including China. Thank you very
:37:17. > :37:23.much. Next week - five days ahead
:37:24. > :37:25.of the EU referendum - we ask what difference a Brexit
:37:26. > :37:29.would make to the rest of the EU. Margot Wallstrom,
:37:30. > :37:30.Sweden's Foreign Secretary, told me it would trigger
:37:31. > :37:42.the break-up of the entire union. It will either mean that the UK
:37:43. > :37:46.actually leaves and that will be the start of a two-year negotiation.
:37:47. > :37:51.That might affect the other EU member states as well. Saying, well,
:37:52. > :37:56.if they can have - if they can leave, maybe we should also have
:37:57. > :38:01.referendas or maybe we should also leave. Maybe it's better that we
:38:02. > :38:04.leave. Or, if they stay, it will - it might also lead to other
:38:05. > :38:09.countries saying - well they negotiated. They asked and demanded
:38:10. > :38:16.to have a special treatment, why shouldn't we? I think it will break
:38:17. > :38:20.up the - so it will be bad either way, but of course we are hoping
:38:21. > :38:25.that they will say. If the UK leaves, do you think it could start
:38:26. > :38:31.to, what, trigger the break-up? I think it will definitely have such
:38:32. > :38:41.an effect. That's the risk of it. That's a risk. Yeah, absolutely.
:38:42. > :38:44.There will be loads who disagree with her.