:00:21. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to This Week's World, the last in our series.
:00:26. > :00:29.We dedicate this programme to a look at America ? its divisions,
:00:30. > :00:34.its power, and its future at a politically turbulent moment.
:00:35. > :00:36.After eight years of Barack Obama, has his cautious approach
:00:37. > :00:39.to military intervention made the world safer?
:00:40. > :00:42.We spoke to his former Defence Secretary, Chuck Hagel.
:00:43. > :00:45.And why do racial tensions in the country appear to be
:00:46. > :00:48.We ask white Americans if they've noticed things
:00:49. > :00:55.I'll speak to the woman Donald Trump tipped as his
:00:56. > :01:00.Plus, a novel way to stop violent criminals ? pay them
:01:01. > :01:04.But first, here's the news you might have missed this week
:01:05. > :01:12.This is the week it became all about love, and hate.
:01:13. > :01:15.New stats show that LGBT people are more likely to be
:01:16. > :01:17.targeted by hate crime than any other group in America.
:01:18. > :01:21.In the wake of the Orlando massacre, though, here is how people have been
:01:22. > :01:25.And here is what Internet vigilantes Anonymous did
:01:26. > :01:32.But in the UK, another senseless murder.
:01:33. > :01:36.Labour MP Jo Cox was gunned down outside her constituency office.
:01:37. > :01:39.Known for her tireless work on Syria, Cox supported intervention
:01:40. > :01:44.in the country's bloody civil war on humanitarian grounds.
:01:45. > :01:48.Greater intervention is a view shared by 51 US diplomats who signed
:01:49. > :01:50.a memo urging President Obama to sanction air strikes
:01:51. > :02:01.Oh, and decision day looms in the EU referendum.
:02:02. > :02:04.Before campaigning was suspended as a mark of respect,
:02:05. > :02:06.referendum fever had reached a farcical crescendo
:02:07. > :02:12.at the so-called Battle of the Thames.
:02:13. > :02:17.Perhaps this farmer has the right idea.
:02:18. > :02:32.Our panel today is Mina Al-Oraibi, deputy editor in chief
:02:33. > :02:36.And Mobeen Azhar, a journalist and film-maker.
:02:37. > :02:45.I am just back from Orlando, your study that has been the story of the
:02:46. > :02:49.week. An awful story but as the week has gone on we have found out more
:02:50. > :02:58.and more information about who the perpetrator was. We started with
:02:59. > :03:01.this perspective that he was supporting ices and he did this in
:03:02. > :03:06.the name of global Islamic Jihad or whatever you want to call it --
:03:07. > :03:12.supporting Isis. But we found out that most likely he was gay and he
:03:13. > :03:16.was using these gay baiting apps, he was extremely closeted and his
:03:17. > :03:21.former wife Kim thought that he used to beat her up and drink a lot and
:03:22. > :03:27.he was not particularly Muslim. We also know he used to be a loner and
:03:28. > :03:31.go to the Pulse nightclub so he had a lot of self loathing and issues.
:03:32. > :03:35.What this really tells us is about the character of a lot of these
:03:36. > :03:40.people and we see these themes again and again. If you were to be cool
:03:41. > :03:46.about it, he would say he has the character of a loser. Quite often we
:03:47. > :03:51.paint these people as criminal terrorist masterminds but actually
:03:52. > :03:57.they are people with huge personal issues. Isis came out and said, yes,
:03:58. > :04:02.this guy is a soldier of the caliphate. I wonder if, a week on,
:04:03. > :04:06.knowing he was a closeted gay man, if they had distanced themselves
:04:07. > :04:11.from that. He becomes less attractive but also lets look at the
:04:12. > :04:16.facts. This is a man who pledges allegiance is not only to Isis and
:04:17. > :04:22.Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda, rival organisations. Take this to your
:04:23. > :04:27.hotel review of the week. This is an odd one. It is a review by a UN
:04:28. > :04:33.official that frequents Damascus in trying to solve the conflict there.
:04:34. > :04:37.He has put the review on trip advisor of the four seasons which is
:04:38. > :04:42.the swankiest hotel in Damascus and also the safest. He had said it was
:04:43. > :04:50.lovely and the staff tried to do what they can but they are low on
:04:51. > :04:54.supplies. The irony of that when a town a few kilometres away from
:04:55. > :04:58.Damascus is dying of starvation because they are under siege, it is
:04:59. > :05:04.the contrast of what they are doing in Syria. It feels crass. And
:05:05. > :05:10.detached of the suffering people there. Take this to your crime wake
:05:11. > :05:14.of the week. This is an issue for avocado lovers. New Zealand has had
:05:15. > :05:18.a particularly terrible crop of avocados which means the price has
:05:19. > :05:25.gone through the roof so we have an avocado crimewave! There have been
:05:26. > :05:29.40 crops stolen en masse and sold on the black market. The police put out
:05:30. > :05:36.a statement saying that these avocados could be dangerous! This is
:05:37. > :05:40.terrible news for hipsters worldwide! Anybody who loves
:05:41. > :05:50.avocados is in mourning! Where is the Mac market? Maybe you have a
:05:51. > :05:57.dealer. -- the black market. Take is to your anthem of the week, changing
:05:58. > :06:01.the words. O Canada, the Canadian national anthem, is going to get
:06:02. > :06:15.revamped if the parliamentarians get their way. They have asked to change
:06:16. > :06:19.the anthem, a phrase that says all of our sons, to be all of us, so
:06:20. > :06:25.everybody is included. They tried this before. Yes, in 2010 but the
:06:26. > :06:30.Conservatives were leading and it got knocked down but in the Justin
:06:31. > :06:32.Trudeau era, it passed through the lower house and it looks likely be
:06:33. > :06:38.said it will pass it. -- When Barack Obama was elected
:06:39. > :06:42.nearly eight long years be a unifying figure over the deep
:06:43. > :06:46.divisions of race that have riven to the massacre in a Charlston
:06:47. > :06:52.church, racial tension And that's even before you throw
:06:53. > :06:56.in the Trump factor. On This Week's World we wanted
:06:57. > :06:59.to ask white people of their assessment of why race
:07:00. > :07:00.had become inflamed. It seems bizarre to have
:07:01. > :07:06.to ask the question. Surveys consistently show that,
:07:07. > :07:26.while most black people believe race is an issue,
:07:27. > :07:34.most white people don't, a divergence of opinion that existed
:07:35. > :07:36.even at the height of the Civil Rights Movement
:07:37. > :07:40.in the 1960s. Most white people didn't
:07:41. > :07:42.understand what Martin Luther So I'm going on a journey
:07:43. > :07:46.into the mind of white America. It could be a bumpy ride according
:07:47. > :07:50.to talk radio. SPEAKERS ON RADIO: The value
:07:51. > :07:52.in black life, given the illegitimacy rate,
:07:53. > :07:54.the out of wedlock rate, is far higher than that of the rest
:07:55. > :07:58.of the society. The reason people have
:07:59. > :07:59.children before they marry You don't need to say white lives
:08:00. > :08:13.matter because white people don't walk up to white people,
:08:14. > :08:16.put a gun to their head I didn't want to talk to any
:08:17. > :08:20.African-Americans for this film. Discrimination is obviously a black
:08:21. > :08:23.issue but when you think about it, And you know it's coming from those
:08:24. > :08:34.areas, and then the next day, the news will come on and,
:08:35. > :08:37.sure enough, there was a shooting Because I don't know how
:08:38. > :08:42.to solve the problem After a while, the race card
:08:43. > :08:47.has been played so much If you think racism doesn't
:08:48. > :08:56.exist, you're white. Welcome to white, affluent
:08:57. > :09:00.Milwaukee, home to some of the most expensive real estate in America,
:09:01. > :09:07.all groomed lawns and tended yards. But just a few minutes' drive away
:09:08. > :09:11.are pockets of despair. This is black Milwaukee,
:09:12. > :09:13.home to 70% of African-Americans Professor Marc Levine
:09:14. > :09:24.from the University of Wisconsin gave me a tour and explained how,
:09:25. > :09:28.over several decades, mortgage lenders and estate agents
:09:29. > :09:30.steered different races to different You know, they could sort of deny
:09:31. > :09:36.outright racism by simply saying, well, this is just a hard-boiled
:09:37. > :09:40.economic analysis, that African-Americans are a greater
:09:41. > :09:42.credit risk and they are not going to pay back these
:09:43. > :09:45.loans so we are not going A study was done about a decade ago
:09:46. > :09:51.by the city to look at exactly that issue and they found that a white
:09:52. > :09:56.household with income around $25,000 a year had about the same rejection
:09:57. > :10:00.rate for housing loans as a black family with income
:10:01. > :10:03.over $125,000 a year. And the result of racism in mortgage
:10:04. > :10:07.lending is segregation and that, in turn, fuels poverty,
:10:08. > :10:09.poor schools and so on. As investors turn their
:10:10. > :10:12.backs on black areas, People who don't even live
:10:13. > :10:25.in the neighbourhood tend to walk through here because it is
:10:26. > :10:27.pleasant on the eyes But on the other hand,
:10:28. > :10:34.just up a couple of blocks, especially through the summer,
:10:35. > :10:36.I can hear gunshots. So if I was to ask you,
:10:37. > :10:43.what was your view of those African-Americans living in that
:10:44. > :10:45.area, what would that be based on? Because it's not on
:10:46. > :10:47.personal contact, is it? Honestly, most of it is based
:10:48. > :10:51.on what I see on the news which unfortunately
:10:52. > :10:53.is a lot of negative. What I'm saying is that I'm part
:10:54. > :10:55.of the problem. Because I don't know how to solve
:10:56. > :10:59.the problem so what do I do? Do you think a lot
:11:00. > :11:02.of people do that? These Americans enjoy a privilege,
:11:03. > :11:06.they can avoid the unpalatable, they live comfortable
:11:07. > :11:09.lives in nice areas. And the advantages white people
:11:10. > :11:14.enjoy, the privileges Good morning, Wisconsin,
:11:15. > :11:27.you're listening to News Radio 620 This is one of the most
:11:28. > :11:30.important men in right-wing Charlie Sykes has a legion
:11:31. > :11:34.of listeners and most are white, Did you think many of your listeners
:11:35. > :11:38.understand the concept I think they've heard the term,
:11:39. > :11:45.I don't think they fully grasp it, I actually had a caller the other
:11:46. > :11:51.day who asked me about that And the caller did
:11:52. > :12:16.a pretty good job. One of the things we are seeing
:12:17. > :12:20.in American politics is you have a lot of white,
:12:21. > :12:23.working-class, poor people who do not feel they are privileged
:12:24. > :12:26.because of their race. So as far as you're concerned,
:12:27. > :12:29.there is no such thing No, there is white privilege,
:12:30. > :12:35.there is all kinds of privilege. There is a reluctance to go back
:12:36. > :12:37.to the racialisation I mean, we do have an
:12:38. > :12:41.African-American president After a while, the race card has
:12:42. > :12:45.been played so much that it The election of Barack Obama
:12:46. > :12:48.distorted the debate For many white people,
:12:49. > :12:54.it marked the end of America's For black people, his success
:12:55. > :13:00.actually marked the beginning. And these are some of those
:13:01. > :13:03.for whom the so-called race card has been played out -
:13:04. > :13:05.white, working-class males, We won with poorly educated,
:13:06. > :13:12.I love the poorly educated. Any discussion of white privilege
:13:13. > :13:15.must account for the problems of the poor and working class
:13:16. > :13:18.but few would argue it is easier to be poor and white in America
:13:19. > :13:23.than poor and black. White privilege,
:13:24. > :13:27.I just don't see it. Helps you see the world
:13:28. > :13:36.the way we do. There is a growing awareness of how
:13:37. > :13:40.corrosive white privilege can be. This video caused a storm online
:13:41. > :13:43.and was produced under the direction of Alice
:13:44. > :13:50.Hunt and her team. I see confusion and disruption
:13:51. > :13:59.in my normal way of looking at the world and that is what we
:14:00. > :14:04.intended to do with these glasses. We wanted to encourage people
:14:05. > :14:06.to start thinking about what it might be like to be
:14:07. > :14:11.in someone else's shoes. My journey into the mind of white
:14:12. > :14:16.America has been an eye-opener. I can now better understand how some
:14:17. > :14:20.people can blithely be unaware of the racism around them,
:14:21. > :14:23.be able to push it to one side, push the chaos to the
:14:24. > :14:25.backs of their minds. But is that an excuse for society
:14:26. > :14:28.not doing anything? In that film Clive talks
:14:29. > :14:36.about the white working class and their attraction to Donald
:14:37. > :14:38.Trump. He's unseated the elite
:14:39. > :14:40.Republican party establishment and continues to shock them -
:14:41. > :14:43.appal them even with his response In a moment I'll be speaking to one
:14:44. > :14:47.of Trump's potential running mates, but first a look at how America's
:14:48. > :14:50.changing demographics might explain Donald Trump broke from Republican
:14:51. > :15:07.orthodox in a whole series of ways, not just because he was much more
:15:08. > :15:10.emphatic on the subject of migration than any other Republican before,
:15:11. > :15:13.but also because he was willing to defend the social
:15:14. > :15:17.insurance state. There are millions and millions
:15:18. > :15:19.of Americans of European descent in the middle of the country,
:15:20. > :15:22.who feel things are worse for them And they sense the party they look
:15:23. > :15:28.to as their political protector, In a speech in 1998,
:15:29. > :15:32.Bill Clinton said the United States was living through the most rapid
:15:33. > :15:35.democratic transition in the history This change in demographics has
:15:36. > :15:51.remade American politics, period. After the defeat in 2012,
:15:52. > :15:54.the Republican Party coalesced around a plan to liberalise
:15:55. > :15:57.immigration and legalise illegals
:15:58. > :16:02.in the United States famously known as the Gang of Eight plan
:16:03. > :16:05.after the eight senators, Democratic and Republican came
:16:06. > :16:07.together to work on it. It was like Woody Allen's joke
:16:08. > :16:10.about the restaurant tried to make up for the bad food by making
:16:11. > :16:13.the portions bigger. Here's an even bigger helping
:16:14. > :16:15.of what you don't like. Now, Donald Trump is running
:16:16. > :16:24.into a problem. Which is that the very strategy that
:16:25. > :16:27.helped him work up those white voters that don't have university
:16:28. > :16:30.educations, is endangering his appeal to white voters
:16:31. > :16:32.who do have the university The Donald Trump people point
:16:33. > :16:37.out he's doing very, very well with the white
:16:38. > :16:39.vote and then they look back at the past saying,
:16:40. > :16:42.if only we had the same electorate as we did a generation ago,
:16:43. > :16:45.then this share of the white vote would be enough to
:16:46. > :16:47.make him president. But what they don't understand
:16:48. > :16:49.is a generation ago, The white vote would have been more
:16:50. > :16:53.divided because this kind of appeal to white consciousness,
:16:54. > :16:55.that Donald Trump is making, is only effective because of
:16:56. > :16:58.the very democratic transition that makes the appeal to white
:16:59. > :17:00.consciousness are doomed Well, Jan Brewer is the former
:17:01. > :17:03.Governor of Arizona who passed what is deemed to be the strictest
:17:04. > :17:06.bill on illegal immigrants Last month he hinted he might
:17:07. > :17:18.make her his vice president. Thank you very much for joining us.
:17:19. > :17:21.During your time in office you took immigration very seriously and
:17:22. > :17:28.attempted the nearest thing America has seen to a wall, in essence, to
:17:29. > :17:32.keep Mexicans out. Talk us through that. We do have along the border
:17:33. > :17:39.between here and Mexico, we do have some fencing. But Arizona is not
:17:40. > :17:44.enforced, we need better fencing, we need more boots on the ground, we
:17:45. > :17:51.need technology down there. Because Arizona has become the pathway for
:17:52. > :17:53.all the illegal immigration including the drug cartel coming
:17:54. > :17:59.from Mexico and South America. When Donald Trump talks about building a
:18:00. > :18:04.wall, or talks about Mexicans building a wall, it sounds like a
:18:05. > :18:10.feasible idea? It is possible, we are a country and a country without
:18:11. > :18:14.Borders is like a house without Walls, it collapses. After the
:18:15. > :18:18.Orlando shooting, we saw Donald Trump's immediate response to what
:18:19. > :18:25.was effectively domestic terror, was to clamp down on immigrants. He
:18:26. > :18:30.repeated his call to ban all Muslims, temporarily and banned
:18:31. > :18:35.those from country with terrorism ties. Many Republicans were shocked,
:18:36. > :18:40.were you? I believe Donald Trump is taking this issue by the horns and
:18:41. > :18:47.is going to do what is necessary to ensure the safety of the people of
:18:48. > :18:51.America. If American Muslims hear this as a rejection of them or their
:18:52. > :18:57.religion or their way of life, and associate that with the Republican
:18:58. > :19:00.party, are you happy? It is not against their religion, it is
:19:01. > :19:09.against the radical Islamic terrorists. They have been
:19:10. > :19:15.radicalised. It is not the Muslims, we have lots of Muslims through
:19:16. > :19:20.Arizona and America. But we have been identified as the infidels and
:19:21. > :19:25.their mission is to kill us. President Obama says that is the
:19:26. > :19:28.kind of talk that will radicalised Young Americans and Muslims towards
:19:29. > :19:35.the things you are trying to prevent. They feel disenfranchised
:19:36. > :19:41.and will go towards the mainstream? I disagree, it is radical Islamic
:19:42. > :19:48.terrorism. We will not allow the people of Arizona and the people of
:19:49. > :19:53.Iran America to live in fear. You share a lot of Donald Trump's views
:19:54. > :19:58.and he has tipped you as a potential vice president. What kind of vice
:19:59. > :20:03.president would you be, would you like the role? I have not spoken to
:20:04. > :20:07.him with regards being vice president of the United States. I
:20:08. > :20:12.indicated, I certainly would be indicated to serve him in any
:20:13. > :20:19.capacity I could serve him in. What if the established Republican Party
:20:20. > :20:23.put forward their own candidates at the convention? I don't think it
:20:24. > :20:28.will happen. If it does it will totally destroyed the Republican
:20:29. > :20:33.party and the people that have supported him, will leave the party.
:20:34. > :20:37.What about gun control, after Orlando, many Americans were looking
:20:38. > :20:43.at the ease with which somebody who has been investigated by the FBI
:20:44. > :20:48.three times, can walk into a club and injure and kill 100 people.
:20:49. > :20:53.Arizona has the least if gun control of any state in the US, are you
:20:54. > :21:03.happy with the way things stand? The background checks run on these
:21:04. > :21:09.people who commit these crimes, pass the background check. I would rather
:21:10. > :21:12.be safe than sorry. Thank you very much.
:21:13. > :21:15.When you win a Nobel prize less than a year into office,
:21:16. > :21:17.the potential to disappoint is naturally huge.
:21:18. > :21:19.Barack Obama came signed, sealed and delivered with huge
:21:20. > :21:23.His foreign policy talk was about new beginning and co-operation.
:21:24. > :21:28.Nearly eight years on we've asked a former State Department
:21:29. > :21:37.official, Karen von Hippel, to assess his legacy.
:21:38. > :21:46.At the start of the Obama administration, expectations are
:21:47. > :21:50.very high, not just in the United States but globally. He was elected
:21:51. > :21:54.because he opposed what most considered an unjust war in Iraq. He
:21:55. > :21:59.won the Nobel Peace Prize coming he gave his speech in carrier, which
:22:00. > :22:04.was moving and affect did millions around the world. I have come here
:22:05. > :22:09.to Cairo to seek a new beginning, between the United States and
:22:10. > :22:13.Muslims around the world. The opening of relations with Cuba is a
:22:14. > :22:19.success. The Iran nuclear deal is another success and killing Osama
:22:20. > :22:24.Bin Laden was another success. On the negative side, I would put the
:22:25. > :22:28.chaos in Libya today, the inability to close Guantanamo be, as he
:22:29. > :22:35.promised at the start, and the continuing tragedy in Syria. A red
:22:36. > :22:40.line for us is, we start saying a whole bunch of chemicals moved
:22:41. > :22:45.around or being utilised. After the aside regime crossed the line by
:22:46. > :22:48.using chemical weapons against their own people, I do believe he could
:22:49. > :22:52.have used force to better effect. His legacies will be mixed, he is
:22:53. > :22:56.cautious and didn't want to get into any unnecessary wars.
:22:57. > :22:57.Nonintervention makes plenty of sense.
:22:58. > :22:59.Until it starts to seem like weakness.
:23:00. > :23:02.Chuck Hagel, a former Republican Senator, was appointed
:23:03. > :23:03.Defence Secretary by President Obama.
:23:04. > :23:06.Over his two years he saw massive upheaval in the Middle East,
:23:07. > :23:14.especially Syria, an issue that saw him resign.
:23:15. > :23:24.Thanks for your time. Syria and the Syria boat was a turning point for
:23:25. > :23:31.you and for many. President Obama vetoed your plans to intervene, do
:23:32. > :23:37.you see that as the right move? It wasn't just a veto, the president
:23:38. > :23:46.had agreed to go forward and take some action in Syria to fulfil his
:23:47. > :23:51.own commitment. If a sad used chemical weapons on his own people.
:23:52. > :23:54.The United Nations found very clearly he had used chemical
:23:55. > :23:59.weapons, more than once and there was no question about that. I'm not
:24:00. > :24:06.to go forward and make good on a commitment, I think was the wrong
:24:07. > :24:12.decision. I do think it hurt his credibility, certainly in the middle
:24:13. > :24:16.east. When the president of the United States speaks, and when the
:24:17. > :24:20.president says something, people in the world listen. Not only do our
:24:21. > :24:25.allies listen, but are adversarial to listen. When you say it hurt his
:24:26. > :24:33.credibility, do you think it has recovered since then? It is hard to
:24:34. > :24:39.recover trust and credibility ever. This was not just a casual, flippant
:24:40. > :24:45.comment, it did mean something. Especially the leaders of the middle
:24:46. > :24:48.East had some confidence in the President's word, there would be
:24:49. > :24:55.something done about the use of chemical weapons. What do you think
:24:56. > :25:04.would have happened in Syria now if you had gone in? We are there,
:25:05. > :25:07.actually. We are in Syria. In different kinds of operations,
:25:08. > :25:14.special forces operations, we have been using air strikes along with
:25:15. > :25:20.our allies, for almost two years. We are clearly in Syria, but you're
:25:21. > :25:27.bigger question is the question about whether Russia would have got
:25:28. > :25:33.involved militarily if a different decision would have been made? I
:25:34. > :25:43.don't know that. I think history will have to play that out.
:25:44. > :25:45.Chuck Hagel became Washington's main conduit to Abdel Fattah el-Sisi,
:25:46. > :25:52.the military general who overthrew the first ever
:25:53. > :25:53.democratically-elected Egyptian president.
:25:54. > :25:56.Recently, the appalling brutality inflicted on an Italian student
:25:57. > :25:58.tortured to death in Cairo turned the world's focus
:25:59. > :30:22.Secretary Hagel, have a look at our film.
:30:23. > :30:28.The Interior Ministry has called this a smear campaign but I wonder
:30:29. > :30:32.how America feels, the moral standpoint when you are still giving
:30:33. > :30:39.financial military aid to Egypt in billions. We fully and completely
:30:40. > :30:52.criticised and condemned that action. That was very clear. And we
:30:53. > :30:58.did stop all military sales and all equipment. The United States is
:30:59. > :31:04.still supporting some of the previous commitments that we have
:31:05. > :31:14.made over the years to Egypt. If we cut off everything, then what
:31:15. > :31:17.options does that give us to make some attempt, some effort on the
:31:18. > :31:22.inside, working with that government, to try to make it better
:31:23. > :31:26.for the people? The human rights violations are terrible, we have
:31:27. > :31:32.said that, we have been clear about that. I want to look forward now.
:31:33. > :31:40.Turbulent political times. As a former Republican senator, do you
:31:41. > :31:43.lean these days towards the Republicans or the Democrats? As a
:31:44. > :31:49.former Republican Senator, I don't know what my party is today that I
:31:50. > :31:55.out in. It is not the party that I started with, not the party of
:31:56. > :32:02.Eisenhower and Reagan and Bush senior and others. What will come
:32:03. > :32:07.out of this election, I don't know. But I do think one thing is rather
:32:08. > :32:13.clear, certainly about the Republican party. It is in the
:32:14. > :32:14.process of this churn and a different kind of party will emerge
:32:15. > :32:19.over the next four years. Thank you. How about just paying
:32:20. > :32:23.the criminals not to re-offend. I think about who these young
:32:24. > :32:44.men are and I think, they've got to be involved,
:32:45. > :32:46.rather than get this Frankly, they're not ready
:32:47. > :32:50.for a job. When you dig a little deeper,
:32:51. > :32:53.what you learn is they don't even The way that it works is, after six
:32:54. > :33:05.months of their 18 month fellowship, they become eligible
:33:06. > :33:10.to receive this cash. It translates into a 75% reduction
:33:11. > :33:17.in firearm-related murders. This about keeping young men alive,
:33:18. > :33:20.this is about stopping shootings. Everything else we've tried has
:33:21. > :33:37.not been successful. We're spending $400,000 every
:33:38. > :33:42.time a person was shot, 400,000 for every young man
:33:43. > :33:45.that is shot. $9,000 for every young man
:33:46. > :33:48.who decides to stop. I will let you ponder that for a
:33:49. > :34:01.moment. A lot hangs in the balance
:34:02. > :34:04.this week for the UK - and indeed for Europe ?
:34:05. > :34:06.with the imminent referendum Last week Sweden's Foreign Secretary
:34:07. > :34:11.told me the Union would We'll hear in a moment
:34:12. > :34:15.from a Brexiteer who believes it First, I asked former
:34:16. > :34:24.Nato Secretary General and former what he thought Brexit would mean
:34:25. > :34:33.to European security. In the worst case there is a clear
:34:34. > :34:40.risk that this would unravel the European Union and we would revert
:34:41. > :34:50.to a renationalisation of policies in Europe. We would revert to a
:34:51. > :34:54.situation before we started the European project which eventually
:34:55. > :35:01.became the European Union. Does the prospect of Brexit, do you believe,
:35:02. > :35:07.leave Nato more or less vulnerable to Putin's ambitions in a former
:35:08. > :35:12.Soviet space? There is no doubt that if the UK were to leave the European
:35:13. > :35:19.Union, it would be strongly applauded in the Kremlin because the
:35:20. > :35:26.Russians and possibly other aggressors would consider it a
:35:27. > :35:33.weakening of the West in the community as such. -- Weston
:35:34. > :35:42.community. I fully respect that this is a decision of the people in the
:35:43. > :35:46.UK but, seen from abroad, from the perspective of a former Prime
:35:47. > :35:51.Minister of a small European country, Denmark, and a former Nato
:35:52. > :35:56.Secretary General, I would call Brexit completely irresponsible. And
:35:57. > :36:01.if the response to that was that we don't really mind if the EU breaks
:36:02. > :36:08.up, there is no great love for that institution any more, what would you
:36:09. > :36:13.respond? My clear response would be that you should look at the
:36:14. > :36:24.interests of the UK when you vote and it is in the interest of the UK
:36:25. > :36:29.to maintain a European integration, to keep European countries on the
:36:30. > :36:36.path we pursued after the Second World War. And I do believe it is in
:36:37. > :36:44.the interests of the UK to stay within the EU. Economically because
:36:45. > :36:48.you are dependent on trade with European Union. Politically because
:36:49. > :36:54.you should have a seat at the table where the decisions are made. And
:36:55. > :36:56.finally also because of peace in Europe.
:36:57. > :37:03.Will Europe really turn their back on the UK if we vote to leave?
:37:04. > :37:05.Crispin Blunt is Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select
:37:06. > :37:10.Committee and has been listening to the interview.
:37:11. > :37:17.A weakening of the Western alliance, that was the point that a former
:37:18. > :37:20.head of Nato made. There were some element missing in that
:37:21. > :37:24.presentation. What I would say is that we sit half in and half out of
:37:25. > :37:29.the European Union, not really committed to the whole institution.
:37:30. > :37:33.Actually the effect is that our European partners cannot get on with
:37:34. > :37:36.the necessary integration to make it work and we are left with a
:37:37. > :37:40.permanently defensive positions in the world, stopping them doing what
:37:41. > :37:45.they want to do. The ironic effect of the UK leaving would actually be
:37:46. > :37:51.to make the creation of a European defence identity much more likely.
:37:52. > :37:55.Are you talking about an EU army? If that is the direction of travel that
:37:56. > :37:59.our partners would like to go on. It is the policy of Germany and Spain
:38:00. > :38:03.to go in that direction and the desire of the commission to create
:38:04. > :38:08.this capability. It is one of the points of abuse sometimes put out by
:38:09. > :38:13.colleagues on the Leave campaign saying you would be checking in for
:38:14. > :38:16.a Euro army if the United Kingdom remains. There are a lot of
:38:17. > :38:21.assumptions about what Europe would do without us but bluntly Rasmussen
:38:22. > :38:25.has said it would be irresponsible to vote for exit. I don't think he
:38:26. > :38:32.has thought the implications through. We have got to address the
:38:33. > :38:35.necessity, sunken invocation to make the Eurozone work and proper
:38:36. > :38:40.democratic accountability and they to have to have to address these
:38:41. > :38:45.issues to make the EU and effective and more integrated institution and
:38:46. > :38:48.frankly our petition, it doesn't help. Thank you.
:38:49. > :38:50.Well that brings us to the end of our series.
:38:51. > :38:52.Don't worry, we'll be selling off the orange lamps
:38:53. > :39:32.See you next time round and thanks for being with us.
:39:33. > :39:35.And did I mention he wrote some books, too?