0:00:16 > 0:00:18Hello and welcome to Thursday In Parliament,
0:00:18 > 0:00:22our look at the best of the day in the Commons and Lords.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26On this programme, Labour describes as shameful the government's
0:00:26 > 0:00:29decision to wind down a scheme allowing vulnerable refugee
0:00:29 > 0:00:30children into Britain.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34Where does it say that instead of the 3000 that Parliament debated,
0:00:34 > 0:00:36we will only help a tenth of that number?
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Where does it say that when we get the chance we will somehow
0:00:39 > 0:00:42turn our backs once again?
0:00:42 > 0:00:43Egging on their Lordships.
0:00:43 > 0:00:48An SNP MP encourages the House of Lords to delay the Brexit Bill.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52For us it is very much a win-win whatever the outcome
0:00:52 > 0:00:55is here because I say to their Lordships, reach
0:00:55 > 0:00:58for these barricades and take on this government.
0:00:58 > 0:00:59And are they really the future?
0:00:59 > 0:01:05Smart energy meters are criticised for not being very smart.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Last year, The Telegraph reported that over 130,000 smart meters
0:01:08 > 0:01:14were now operating in this dumb mode as a result of switching.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17But first, the government is insisting it's not abandoning
0:01:17 > 0:01:21vulnerable refugee children despite winding down its scheme,
0:01:21 > 0:01:24which allows unaccompanied youngsters into the UK.
0:01:24 > 0:01:34350 children, mostly from Syria, are to be offered sank
0:01:43 > 0:01:45350 children, mostly from Syria, are to be offered --
0:01:45 > 0:01:46sanctuary under the project.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Campaigners had hoped that more than 3000 youngsters,
0:01:48 > 0:01:50some of whom have already made their way to mainland
0:01:50 > 0:01:51Europe, would be accepted.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Answering an urgent question in the House of Commons,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55the Home Secretary Amber Rudd described how the
0:01:55 > 0:01:56scheme had operated.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Within Europe in 2016, we transferred over 900
0:01:58 > 0:02:00unaccompanied asylum seeking children to the UK.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03This included more than 750 from France as part of the UK's support
0:02:03 > 0:02:04for the Calais camp clearance.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07And I am proud that as Home Secretary the UK played such
0:02:07 > 0:02:11a key role in supporting the French to safely and compassionately
0:02:11 > 0:02:12close the camp.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15Yesterday, the government announced that in accordance with section 67
0:02:15 > 0:02:18of the Immigration Act, we will transfer the specified
0:02:18 > 0:02:23number of 350 children pursuant to that section who reasonably meet
0:02:23 > 0:02:33the intention and spirit behind the revision.
0:02:35 > 0:02:36-- the provision.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38She said the scheme was not being closed.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41The government has always been clear that we do not want to incentivise
0:02:41 > 0:02:43perilous journeys to Europe, particularly by the most
0:02:43 > 0:02:44vulnerable children.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47That is why children must have arrived in Europe before the
0:02:47 > 0:02:5020th March 2016 to be eligible under section 67 of the Immigration Act.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52The section 67 obligation was accepted on the basis
0:02:52 > 0:02:55that the measure would not act as a pull factor for children
0:02:55 > 0:02:58to Europe and that it would be based on local authority capacity.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01The government has a clear strategy and we believe that this
0:03:01 > 0:03:03is the right approach.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06This week the government cancelled the Dubs scheme after it had been
0:03:06 > 0:03:08running for less than six months.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11She said it hasn't closed, but will she confirm what it said
0:03:11 > 0:03:14in the statement yesterday that once those 350 children are here,
0:03:15 > 0:03:17that's it, it is closed.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21Where does it say in the Hansard debate that I have here
0:03:21 > 0:03:25from our debates on the Dubs amendment that we will only help
0:03:25 > 0:03:27lone child refugees for six months?
0:03:27 > 0:03:30Where does it say that instead of the 3000 Parliament debated,
0:03:30 > 0:03:32we will only help a tenth of that number?
0:03:32 > 0:03:35Where does it say that when we get the chance, we will somehow
0:03:35 > 0:03:37turn our backs once again?
0:03:37 > 0:03:41It doesn't because we didn't say that at the time.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44She said the Home Secretary had acted shamefully.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47And there are still so many children in need of help.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50She knows there are thousands in Greece in overcrowded
0:03:50 > 0:03:53accommodation or homeless, or in Italy, still at risk
0:03:53 > 0:03:55of human trafficking.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59Or teenagers in French centres, which are being closed down now
0:03:59 > 0:04:01and they have nowhere left to go.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04She talked about clearing Calais, they are heading back to Calais,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07back to Dunkirk, back to the mud, back to the danger, back
0:04:07 > 0:04:11into the arms of the people traffickers and the smugglers,
0:04:11 > 0:04:14the exploitation, the abuse, the prostitution rings and back
0:04:14 > 0:04:17into the modern slavery that this parliament and this government
0:04:17 > 0:04:19has pledged to end.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23These are children who need looking after over a period.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27When we accept them here it is not job done.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31It is making sure that we work with local authorities,
0:04:31 > 0:04:35that we have the right safeguarding in place and that's why we engage
0:04:35 > 0:04:38with the local authorities, why we make sure that they have
0:04:38 > 0:04:41sufficient funds, which we have increased,
0:04:41 > 0:04:43to look after those young people.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46I completely reject her attack.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50The UK has a strong reputation in Europe
0:04:50 > 0:04:54and internationally for looking after the most vulnerable.
0:04:54 > 0:04:55That will continue.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59We have a different approach to where those most vulnerable are.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02We believe that they are in the region.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05That's why we have made a pledge to accept 3000 children
0:05:05 > 0:05:09from the region and we are committed to delivering on that.
0:05:09 > 0:05:15And how does she live with herself leaving thousands of people,
0:05:15 > 0:05:19leaving thousands, and members opposite can jeer,
0:05:19 > 0:05:24how does she live with herself, leaving thousands of children
0:05:24 > 0:05:28subject to disease, people trafficking,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31squalor and hopelessness?
0:05:31 > 0:05:34She describes how she doubts that the children in
0:05:34 > 0:05:35France are looked after.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38And I can say to the right Honourable Lady, the children
0:05:38 > 0:05:41who are most vulnerable are the ones in the camps out in
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Jordan, out in Lebanon.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46These are the ones who are really vulnerable and those are the ones
0:05:46 > 0:05:50that we are determined to bring over here.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54It seems that the government tried to sneak out what they knew would be
0:05:54 > 0:05:57a very unpopular announcement when they were avoiding
0:05:57 > 0:06:00scrutiny in this House about the Brexit deal.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Is this the shape of things to come and is this what comes of cosying
0:06:04 > 0:06:07up to President Trump?
0:06:07 > 0:06:10I think many in this House have listened to what she has said
0:06:10 > 0:06:12with total disbelief.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16We cannot understand, given the intensity of the discussion
0:06:16 > 0:06:20and debate around the Dubs, an amendment that was put
0:06:20 > 0:06:24and accepted by this House, that the Home Secretary has come
0:06:24 > 0:06:27forward with what essentially is a closure of that scheme
0:06:27 > 0:06:31at a number well below what any of us would have expected.
0:06:31 > 0:06:35Does she not agree with me that the reality will be that many
0:06:35 > 0:06:41children across Europe in desperate need will be left with no hope?
0:06:41 > 0:06:44I am glad to hear there is going to be another 150 children
0:06:44 > 0:06:47coming to the UK under this scheme before it closes but can
0:06:47 > 0:06:51the Secretary of State tell the House, is she able to look
0:06:51 > 0:06:55the 151st child in the eye and say no?
0:06:55 > 0:07:00Well, I want to know how the Honourable Lady
0:07:00 > 0:07:01feels about the children
0:07:01 > 0:07:04who are from the region, the children who are in the camps,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07they are not in France, they are not in Italy,
0:07:07 > 0:07:09they are the ones in the camps where the conditions
0:07:09 > 0:07:10are much, much worse.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14How would she feel about looking them in the eye?
0:07:14 > 0:07:15Amber Rudd.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18Well, the scheme for giving sanctury to unaccompanied children has always
0:07:18 > 0:07:20been associated with the name of the 84-year-old
0:07:20 > 0:07:22Labour peer Lord Dubs.
0:07:22 > 0:07:27He himself first arrived in Britain from Czechoslovakia in 1938 as part
0:07:27 > 0:07:30of the Kindertransport fleeing the Nazis.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34In the Lords, Lord Dubs gave his reaction to the latest developments.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37He said to him it seemed the scheme was being closed.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40My Lords, I must confess I'm slightly puzzled
0:07:40 > 0:07:43because if the government says that there is a specified number
0:07:43 > 0:07:46of children, then after that total has been reached,
0:07:46 > 0:07:48the scheme has been closed.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52My Lords, it was not long ago that I remember the Prime Minister
0:07:52 > 0:07:56when she was Home Secretary told me that the government was prepared
0:07:56 > 0:07:58to accept the amendment.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01It was on the same day that the then Immigration Minister said to me
0:08:01 > 0:08:04that the government would accept the letter and the spirit
0:08:04 > 0:08:06of that amendment.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10I believe in arbitrarily closing down the scheme without any good
0:08:10 > 0:08:12reason for doing so, the government is in breach
0:08:12 > 0:08:16of its own commitments.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19My Lords, the scheme is not closed.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23As the noble Lord said, we will be accepting up
0:08:23 > 0:08:28to the limits of 350 at at this point in time, the
0:08:28 > 0:08:30scheme is not closed.
0:08:30 > 0:08:35What I think, well, more children will come,
0:08:35 > 0:08:37the scheme is not closed.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41What I think we have to appreciate, and I think noble Lords
0:08:41 > 0:08:45generally have appreciated, is that the capacity of local
0:08:45 > 0:08:48authorities is limited.
0:08:48 > 0:08:54Noble Lords might rubbish that, but the capacity of local
0:08:54 > 0:08:55authorities is limited.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59We have relied on their goodwill, it has been an entirely voluntary
0:08:59 > 0:09:04approach from the local authorities and of course I would encourage
0:09:04 > 0:09:07more local authorities to come forward who think
0:09:07 > 0:09:09that they might have places.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13There are many people who have expressed an interest
0:09:13 > 0:09:19to help but the government, both the churches, the other
0:09:19 > 0:09:22place, local authorities,
0:09:22 > 0:09:25I myself know several people who have indicated their willingness
0:09:25 > 0:09:30to help their local authority but have had little response back.
0:09:30 > 0:09:38Obviously the government is quite disinterested in taking any more.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40My Lords, that is absolutely wrong.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44Yes, we have had expressions, we have had informal expressions
0:09:44 > 0:09:49of interest and I would encourage the noble lady if she has the names
0:09:49 > 0:09:52of those individuals, the names of those community groups
0:09:52 > 0:09:55and the names of those church groups to please contact us so that we can
0:09:55 > 0:09:58get matters in train.
0:09:58 > 0:09:59Lady Williams.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Now, it's not been the best 12 months for the game of football.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05The England manager had to resign when he was filmed making covert
0:10:05 > 0:10:09deals behind the backs of football Association officials,
0:10:09 > 0:10:18story surfaced about incidents of historical abuse on youngsters
0:10:18 > 0:10:20by scouts and coaches, and there was the little matter
0:10:20 > 0:10:22of a humiliating international knockout for the England
0:10:22 > 0:10:24national team at the hands of Iceland last summer.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26So, is part of the solution for football's varied problems
0:10:26 > 0:10:29better governance of the sport?
0:10:29 > 0:10:32The Commons has been holding a special debate.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35The Premier League, its primary job is to promote its competition
0:10:35 > 0:10:37and it does so brilliantly all around the world.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41However, it exerts an enormous amount of influence over football
0:10:41 > 0:10:44because of the vast amount of money that it raises and it
0:10:44 > 0:10:46funds back into the game.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48So therefore we do need a strong Premier League,
0:10:48 > 0:10:51that is good for football, but we need a strong national
0:10:51 > 0:10:53governing body for football that is ultimately responsible
0:10:53 > 0:10:56for the sporting and ethical decisions that football has to take.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00It is necessary to reform the structure of the FA board
0:11:00 > 0:11:03to make the FA more independent, to give it the power to act.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06We have been calling for this for years, the select committee
0:11:06 > 0:11:08has been calling for it in previous reports.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10We believe now that legislation is the only way
0:11:10 > 0:11:12in which this can be delivered.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15That was the recommendation of the last three chairman of the FA
0:11:15 > 0:11:20to the select committee, to say the FA cannot reform itself,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23the turkeys would not vote for Christmas, there has to be
0:11:23 > 0:11:25external pressure and external action through
0:11:25 > 0:11:26legislation to achieve it.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29What I am asking in this debate today is that if the government
0:11:29 > 0:11:32is unsuccessful in getting reform from the FA that a Bill is prepared
0:11:32 > 0:11:34to be introduced into the next session of parliament
0:11:34 > 0:11:37after the Queen's speech to deliver the reform the FA so badly needs.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Club ownership, safe standing, 20 is plenty, kick-off times,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42disabled access, tackling homophobia are all issues that need to be
0:11:42 > 0:11:52addressed by a reformed FA and with more support or input,
0:11:52 > 0:11:53I hope that will now happen.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56I hope this debate will show that we are serious about reform.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59In the end you look at the situation where an ordinary Premier League
0:11:59 > 0:12:02player in two months can earn more than Sheffield City Council can
0:12:02 > 0:12:04spend on its junior football pitches in a whole year.
0:12:05 > 0:12:06There's something wrong with that.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09It shows that there is a wrong balance of money in the game.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11So, if we are going to have that reformed board,
0:12:11 > 0:12:14it has to be able to divert more money into grassroots football
0:12:14 > 0:12:16and actually stop the cliff edge between the Premier League
0:12:16 > 0:12:18and the English Football League as well.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20But we should not belittle everything the FA does.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22It has done some great things.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25It has done really well on the women's game at local
0:12:25 > 0:12:27level and at professional level and it has tackled racism.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Many fans would want to see, for instance, the FA have more
0:12:30 > 0:12:32influence over the number of home-grown players that
0:12:33 > 0:12:34are developed in our league.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36It is woefully inadequate.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39We have far too many of these 'pret a porter' players that are imported
0:12:39 > 0:12:44on the basis of the fact that there is so much wealth
0:12:44 > 0:12:47knocking about in the Premier League that rather than develop and take
0:12:47 > 0:12:50a chance on a youngster, they buy someone off the peg
0:12:50 > 0:12:54and bring them in and we don't impose the rules that should be
0:12:54 > 0:12:57applied in terms of how those players contribute and add to this
0:12:57 > 0:13:00game and many fans would like to see an FA that can deal
0:13:00 > 0:13:03with issues like that.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06What is most shocking in my view is not that the governance of the FA
0:13:06 > 0:13:10is in need of fundamental reform, that is a settled point, Mr Speaker,
0:13:10 > 0:13:15but that the leadership of the FA has been so grossly ineffective
0:13:15 > 0:13:18in bringing forward these reforms in the face of criticism
0:13:18 > 0:13:21from the cross-party culture, media and sport select committee.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24At best they are dragging their feet, at worst they're
0:13:24 > 0:13:27wilfully failing to act.
0:13:27 > 0:13:29We know that the FA are failing to regulate the power
0:13:29 > 0:13:30of football agents.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34They have a football agents' exam, which I'm told can be
0:13:34 > 0:13:36passed by an 11-year-old.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40They are failing to regulate correctly the transfer negotiations
0:13:40 > 0:13:43and there is still the potential for a bung culture within
0:13:43 > 0:13:51those considerations.
0:13:51 > 0:13:52-- negotiations.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55The structures aren't right and so the management below isn't
0:13:55 > 0:13:56right and the enforcement below isn't right.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59The FA's current model does not, in my opinion and clearly that
0:13:59 > 0:14:01of other colleagues, stand up to scrutiny.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04Reform is therefore required.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06But I repeat the governing body has every opportunity to bring
0:14:06 > 0:14:07that about themselves.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10While I believe a vote of no-confidence in the FA today
0:14:10 > 0:14:12is six weeks premature, they and other governing bodies
0:14:12 > 0:14:15should be fully aware that the clock is ticking fast and failure
0:14:15 > 0:14:18to reform will lead not just to the withdrawal of public money
0:14:18 > 0:14:19but further consideration of legislative, regulatory
0:14:19 > 0:14:21and financial options to bring about this change needed.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24If we want to see better governance of football across the world
0:14:24 > 0:14:28then let it begin here.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30The Commons debate on football.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33You're watching our round-up of the day in the Commons and the Lords.
0:14:33 > 0:14:34Still to come...
0:14:34 > 0:14:41Could the House of Lords frustrate the Brexit process?
0:14:41 > 0:14:43MPs have called on the Government to consider formally recognising
0:14:43 > 0:14:46a Palestinian state.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49The suggestion was made during a debate on a backbench
0:14:49 > 0:14:52motion demanding an immediate halt to the planning and construction of
0:14:52 > 0:14:58Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.
0:14:58 > 0:15:08Given the investment that we have made in a two-state solution,
0:15:09 > 0:15:18my question to the Minister is, aside from standing
0:15:18 > 0:15:20on the touchlines watching the players on the field
0:15:20 > 0:15:22and shouting advice,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25what more can we do whilst our friend and ally pursues a policy
0:15:25 > 0:15:28on settlements which is bound, so proceeding, to deliver
0:15:28 > 0:15:32a situation where the two-state solution becomes actually
0:15:32 > 0:15:40geographically and economically unworkable.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43He might consider giving effect to this House's instruction
0:15:43 > 0:15:50that we should recognise the Palestinian state.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54Now, I have heard my honourable friend say that we can only do this
0:15:54 > 0:15:57once and therefore we need to choose the moment where that
0:15:57 > 0:16:00will make the maximum impact, and I agree with him,
0:16:00 > 0:16:06but he needs to consider this.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10It would be truly absurd if we were to delay that recognition
0:16:10 > 0:16:13till after the point at which the reality of any
0:16:13 > 0:16:20such Palestinian state could actually be delivered.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24So will the Minister agree with me that when the two-state solution
0:16:24 > 0:16:28that we all support is now under threat like never before that now
0:16:28 > 0:16:38is the time to act on that bilateral recognition?
0:16:40 > 0:16:44We have to ask ourselves, if not now then when, and if not now,
0:16:44 > 0:16:48aren't those Palestinians who believe that we talk
0:16:48 > 0:16:51a good story but we do nothing to end their misery
0:16:51 > 0:16:52are actually right?
0:16:52 > 0:16:55Supporters of Israel argue that settlements are not the sole barrier
0:16:55 > 0:16:56to peace or indeed the main one.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59As supporters of a two-state solution we should commit
0:16:59 > 0:17:01ourselves to building trust with and between both
0:17:01 > 0:17:02Israelis and Palestinians.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05We should do that in both our words and our actions.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08In our words we should seek to avoid emotive language which feeds
0:17:08 > 0:17:11a narrative of victim and villain.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15We should recognise and encourage the need for compromise
0:17:15 > 0:17:18and we should never fail to acknowledge the complexities
0:17:18 > 0:17:20of a conflict which has endured for decades and whose
0:17:20 > 0:17:23roots run deep.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26It's often said that Israeli settlements are illegal,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30but stating this repeatedly does not make it true.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34Please bear with me, because I realise that's quite
0:17:34 > 0:17:37an inflammatory comment, so bear with me for a moment.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40The West Bank and Gaza remain, as they have always been,
0:17:40 > 0:17:42disputed territories under international law.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45There has never been a Palestinian state.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47So the territory remains ownerless, and that's
0:17:47 > 0:17:50a strong argument for some.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53I am deeply disappointed that this government continues to fail
0:17:53 > 0:17:56to recognise the Palestinian state.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Now is the time and I would ask him to give some comment on that.
0:18:00 > 0:18:07Secondly, what thought has the Government put into how it can
0:18:07 > 0:18:09be that settlement goods can be separated from other Israeli goods?
0:18:09 > 0:18:12There are many people who do not wish to buy settlement goods,
0:18:12 > 0:18:14and is the Government doing any further work on that,
0:18:14 > 0:18:17and how can we persuade British companies not to invest
0:18:17 > 0:18:18in settlement areas?
0:18:18 > 0:18:20But most importantly I hope that when President Trump
0:18:20 > 0:18:23and the Prime Minister Netanyahu visit London later this
0:18:23 > 0:18:26year our Prime Minister will have the courage to set out
0:18:26 > 0:18:30those views in no uncertain terms.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34The Foreign Office Minister, Tobias Ellwood, voiced concern that
0:18:34 > 0:18:36territory for a Palestinian state was being eroded by settlement
0:18:36 > 0:18:38building, but he said the Palestinian leadership needed
0:18:38 > 0:18:43to do more to prevent the incitement of violence.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46President Abbas condemns certain aspects of it
0:18:46 > 0:18:48but we are still seeing schools and squares being named
0:18:48 > 0:18:50after terrorists.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53This is not the confidence-building measures that we need to see.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57There is no relationship with Hamas at all.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00These are the steps that will allow us to move forward so there can be
0:19:00 > 0:19:03a recognition in the long term of the state of Palestine,
0:19:03 > 0:19:04but they are not there yet.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08A younger generation has given up on their own leadership,
0:19:08 > 0:19:12choosing instead to try and take a fast track to paradise by grabbing
0:19:12 > 0:19:15a knife and killing an Israeli soldier, and that is a very terrible
0:19:15 > 0:19:16state of affairs to be in.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19The latest debate on the Palestinian territories.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22"Don't mess about or you'll get abolished."
0:19:22 > 0:19:26That was reported to be the blunt warning issued to members
0:19:26 > 0:19:29of the House of Lords on Wednesday night by government supporters
0:19:29 > 0:19:32shortly after the moment when the so-called Brexit bill
0:19:32 > 0:19:34finally cleared the Commons.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37So could peers delay the whole process of triggering
0:19:37 > 0:19:40Article 50, the legal means by which the procedure is started
0:19:40 > 0:19:44for the UK to leave the EU?
0:19:44 > 0:19:47The Scottish National Party is normally fiercely critical
0:19:47 > 0:19:50of the Lords but the SNP's Pete Wishart appeared to be
0:19:50 > 0:19:57supportive of peers finding fault with the Brexit bill.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00The bill now goes on its way to our friends down the corridor
0:20:00 > 0:20:06and what we've seen is that the unelected friends
0:20:06 > 0:20:08have been threatened with abolition if they dare mess
0:20:08 > 0:20:09with this government's bill.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12I am sure they are now quaking in their ermine if they don't
0:20:12 > 0:20:16do their patriotic duty, as the Secretary of State said.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Can I just say I offer nothing other than encouragement to these fine
0:20:19 > 0:20:24tribunes in ermine who will now pick up the case.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28For us it's very much a win-win, whatever the outcome is here.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30So can I say to their Lordships, reach for these barricades
0:20:30 > 0:20:32and take on this government.
0:20:32 > 0:20:37On the question of the House of Lords, the House of Lords
0:20:37 > 0:20:41has a valued function under our constitutional
0:20:41 > 0:20:42arrangements in terms of scrutinising and reviewing
0:20:42 > 0:20:46legislation coming up from the House of Commons,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49as I am sure they will do that on the bill we've been debating
0:20:49 > 0:20:54this week, as they do on every other bill,
0:20:54 > 0:20:57but that they will also bear in mind the reality of the referendum
0:20:57 > 0:21:05and the popular mandate that lies behind the Article 50 decision.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08Would the Leader of the House accept that this Parliament works
0:21:08 > 0:21:12because we have two houses, and sometimes the Other Place
0:21:12 > 0:21:15doesn't agree with this House and annoys the Government.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18That is no reason whatsoever to threaten it with abolition.
0:21:18 > 0:21:23Can we have a statement from the Leader of the House confirming that?
0:21:23 > 0:21:28I mean, the Government's position is that we respect completely
0:21:28 > 0:21:31the constitutional role of the House of Lords, and as I said earlier
0:21:31 > 0:21:35the House of Lords itself accepts that as an unelected house it needs
0:21:35 > 0:21:36to abide by certain conventions.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40David Lidington.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45Now, how smart is smart metering of gas and electricity?
0:21:45 > 0:21:47The idea is that your handy smart meter device sends automatic
0:21:47 > 0:21:50messages to your gas and electricity supplier so you don't need to.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53No more estimated bills.
0:21:53 > 0:21:58And you can see how much energy you're actually using.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00The Government is in favour of large-scale introduction of smart
0:22:00 > 0:22:02meters but in a debate in Westminster Hall
0:22:02 > 0:22:05several MPs had doubts.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07One spoke about his own experience.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12The smart meter was fitted.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Now, once a month I have to go outside and take a photo of my smart
0:22:16 > 0:22:19meter and send that photo over broadband to the supplier
0:22:19 > 0:22:20because I don't have connectivity.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24My smart meter isn't connected to anything because I don't
0:22:24 > 0:22:25have the mobile-phone signal.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Now, that is a challenge if we're going to provide
0:22:28 > 0:22:3020 million smart meters, or however many we're supplying,
0:22:30 > 0:22:32it's quite a lot, by 2020.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37Now, the interesting thing is, I'm the local MP.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40The local BBC reporter recently e-mailed me to say that he had had
0:22:40 > 0:22:46a smart meter fitted.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48He has to do exactly the same thing.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51So it's a bit worrying in terms of winning public support for this,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54if the local MP and the local BBC presenter actually have smart
0:22:54 > 0:22:55meters that don't work.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Now, clearly this was a private meeting, so I'm not telling
0:22:58 > 0:23:01the world that my smart meter doesn't work, but I do
0:23:01 > 0:23:03enjoy telling the story.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07The idea of having complete knowledge of the energy you're
0:23:07 > 0:23:14consuming is a desirable objective.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18But we are not doing it in a way that will be appreciated
0:23:18 > 0:23:24by the consumer and will probably be at a cost to the consumer.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27There is a great variety in the meters that are
0:23:27 > 0:23:37being installed just now.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Again I'll say the ones I saw at Scottish Gas were all-singing
0:23:44 > 0:23:48and all-dancing, probably could make your cup of tea for you as well.
0:23:48 > 0:23:49The meter I've got is far less interactive,
0:23:49 > 0:23:52and there is a real danger, in fact we've seen this
0:23:52 > 0:23:55with a lot of people, that the meter, after a short time,
0:23:55 > 0:23:58or certainly the display unit, ends up getting tossed in a draw
0:23:58 > 0:23:59or a cupboard somewhere.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01And a Conservative MP also saw some limitations.
0:24:01 > 0:24:02One of these relates to interoperability
0:24:02 > 0:24:03between suppliers.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05That is, customers who switch their energy supplier
0:24:05 > 0:24:07after installation run the risk of losing the meter's
0:24:07 > 0:24:09smart functionality.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12Depending on who they are switching from and to.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14It could revert to being a dumb, or perhaps more kindly
0:24:14 > 0:24:18a traditional, meter.
0:24:18 > 0:24:23Last year the Telegraph reported that over 130,000 smart meters
0:24:23 > 0:24:32were now operating in this dumb mode as a result of switching.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35What we are talking about here is an upgrade of a very significant
0:24:35 > 0:24:37part of our infrastructure, very significant part
0:24:37 > 0:24:38of our infrastructure.
0:24:38 > 0:24:48An upgrade of a technology that is 100 years old.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51An upgrade of a technology, at the moment far too many people,
0:24:51 > 0:24:53means that people are looking at bills where their
0:24:53 > 0:24:54consumption is estimated.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56We don't tolerate that in the supermarket, why on earth
0:24:56 > 0:25:01should we tolerate it at home in the modern age, in 2017?
0:25:01 > 0:25:11That people should continue, and our energy system,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14absolutely functional to a smart and prosperous economy,
0:25:14 > 0:25:16should continue to be dependent on a technology
0:25:16 > 0:25:17that is so out of date.
0:25:17 > 0:25:18Nick Hurd.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20And that's it for this programme.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22Do join me for the week in Parliament, when we analyse
0:25:22 > 0:25:24the contribution to Parliament made by the Speaker
0:25:24 > 0:25:26of the Commons, John Bercow.
0:25:26 > 0:25:36Until then, from me, Keith McDougall, goodbye.