0:00:18 > 0:00:21Hello and welcome to the programme.
0:00:21 > 0:00:27Coming up in the next half hour: The morning after the night before.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31That was a humiliating and entirely avoidable defeat for the government.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33Also on the programme, damning criticism of government
0:00:33 > 0:00:35reforms which have left probation officers monitoring 200 offenders
0:00:35 > 0:00:38each, some only by phone.
0:00:38 > 0:00:46And it's six months since the horrific fire at Grenfell Tower.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Can the noble Lord Taulbee has what specific action the government are
0:00:50 > 0:00:53taking to get these families into accommodation in the new year?
0:00:53 > 0:00:55It was on the seventh amendment during the seventh day
0:00:55 > 0:00:57at round about seven pm that the Government suffered
0:00:57 > 0:00:59a defeat on the Brexit Bill.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01On Thursday morning, along with their Coco Pops,
0:01:01 > 0:01:04MPs were still digesting what had happened.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06And coincidentally it was the Brexit Department who were down
0:01:06 > 0:01:08to answer questions in the Commons.
0:01:08 > 0:01:14The session began with a bit of banter.
0:01:14 > 0:01:23I can understand why the minister a isn't quite right side this morning.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27It is the extension I am afraid of the single European cold which is
0:01:27 > 0:01:28having a transition period of its own.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32But then it was down to business.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Last night this has voted that Parliament should have a meaningful
0:01:36 > 0:01:40vote at the end of the process. That was a humiliating and entirely
0:01:40 > 0:01:46avoidable at the feet for the government. This has not having
0:01:46 > 0:01:51spoken, have assurance that the government will not seek to
0:01:51 > 0:01:57undermine or overturn last nights results at the report stage.Let me
0:01:57 > 0:02:03first make an observation on last night's outcome. The effect of it is
0:02:03 > 0:02:11to make the powers available under section nine, deferred until after
0:02:11 > 0:02:16as we see it... We get oil assents to the withdrawal agreement and a
0:02:16 > 0:02:20limitation bill which means that it will be a compressed timetable.
0:02:20 > 0:02:25Those who want to see a smooth and orderly exit from the European
0:02:25 > 0:02:29Union, hopefully want to see a working statute book. We will have
0:02:29 > 0:02:33to think about how we respond to it. But as always we take the House of
0:02:33 > 0:02:39Commons views seriously.Mr Speaker that was not the basis upon which
0:02:39 > 0:02:44the debate was conducted yesterday. We will have to come back to that.
0:02:44 > 0:02:50The next accident waiting to happen is government amendment 381, which
0:02:50 > 0:02:53seeks to put a fixed exit date on the face of the bill. Rather than
0:02:53 > 0:02:58repeated last nights debacle, will be government now commits to
0:02:58 > 0:03:05dropping that ill-conceived gimmick? Unlike the right honourable
0:03:05 > 0:03:10gentleman I do not of you both as accidents. Their decisions taken by
0:03:10 > 0:03:17the house and not decision, the respected as will the next one.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21Nobody on these benches who voted against the government took any
0:03:21 > 0:03:27pleasure not, nobody drank champagne. We drink champagne, not
0:03:27 > 0:03:33on these benches. These are serious matters. It was avoidable if the
0:03:33 > 0:03:37offer that have been made by my right honourable and learned friend
0:03:37 > 0:03:42from back in field had been taken up.Essential to our ambition for a
0:03:42 > 0:03:51excellent deal is preparation for no deal. Isn't it?That's one
0:03:51 > 0:03:54perspective, I will say one thing about no deal. No deal has become
0:03:54 > 0:03:59massively less probable after the decisions of last Friday. That is a
0:03:59 > 0:04:04good thing because the best to deal is a terrace of free and a nontariff
0:04:04 > 0:04:08barrier free arrangement with the European Union. However he is quite
0:04:08 > 0:04:11right, we do continue to prepare for all contingencies and will continue
0:04:11 > 0:04:14to do so until we are certain that we have a good free-trade deal with
0:04:14 > 0:04:19the European Union.The European Union is estimate is of a wider
0:04:19 > 0:04:25seller of over 42,000 bottles, and artwork worth more than £13 million.
0:04:25 > 0:04:31Some might say metaphorically looted from the capitals of Europe. After
0:04:31 > 0:04:34we leave the party will be minister promised to take back control of our
0:04:34 > 0:04:39fair share of this are to an out wind and not lead to Mr York to
0:04:39 > 0:04:46enjoy?First advisory referenda was conducted in ignorance of the wine
0:04:46 > 0:04:52cellars and almost every thing else was a choice between operation fear
0:04:52 > 0:04:56and operation lies. As an appropriate that we listen to all
0:04:56 > 0:05:00those independent bodies who have looked at the press fax and decided
0:05:00 > 0:05:06it that's Brexit, no Brexit would be better than any Brexit. Isn't it
0:05:06 > 0:05:10time to think about a second well-informed confirmation
0:05:10 > 0:05:20referendum?The answer I give to him is the same one that I did then. He
0:05:20 > 0:05:23referendum debate that we had to knock him out of the blue Comet came
0:05:23 > 0:05:27after 30 years of debating in this country. The government at the time
0:05:27 > 0:05:34went to every country. We should suck the decision of the British
0:05:34 > 0:05:38people.Recent polls and I'll show there is a clear majority in favour
0:05:38 > 0:05:42of a referendum on the deal, and it is it any wonder this government has
0:05:42 > 0:05:48lost control? Yesterday Parliament took back control, and now the book
0:05:48 > 0:05:52want to take back control from the Tory party any DUP. Can the Minister
0:05:52 > 0:05:57please acclaimed my constituents how a referendum on the deal, the
0:05:57 > 0:06:02first-ever random on the facts, would be anti-democratic?I'm very
0:06:02 > 0:06:10tempted to point out the polling results the Liberal Democrats
0:06:10 > 0:06:14party... No opinion poll comes anywhere near the votes of 17 and a
0:06:14 > 0:06:19half million people which we will respect. Following events in the
0:06:19 > 0:06:24timber last night, somehow met members of your main campaign took
0:06:24 > 0:06:28to Twitter saying this is another step towards a Barry of preventing
0:06:28 > 0:06:32Brexit. With the Secretary of State please confirm and reassure the 17.4
0:06:32 > 0:06:36million people who voted to leave that this government is absolutely
0:06:36 > 0:06:40committed to delivering a positive Brexit for this country?That things
0:06:40 > 0:06:46are by saying I do not agree with the people who tweeted that that was
0:06:46 > 0:06:49the purpose of many of the people who voted last night. I think they
0:06:49 > 0:06:54did so in good faith. However, he is right. The aim of this government is
0:06:54 > 0:06:57to take a set of the European Union, dissected by the European people and
0:06:57 > 0:06:59that is what we will do.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01Several MPs were concerned about the rights of EU
0:07:01 > 0:07:03nationals living in the UK.
0:07:03 > 0:07:09Unfortunately the 3 million EU 27 citizens living here do not feel
0:07:09 > 0:07:14that certainty because nothing is agreed until editing is agreed. The
0:07:14 > 0:07:18government not commit now to putting an amendment on the face of any of
0:07:18 > 0:07:22the forthcoming EU bills to give that certainty?The Secretary of
0:07:22 > 0:07:26State claims that the phase agreement gives security to EU
0:07:26 > 0:07:30nationals, but this is constantly undermined by the reference to a no
0:07:30 > 0:07:35deal Brexit which would let up. Does he not accept that there is a need
0:07:35 > 0:07:38to give the legal standing to EU citizens rights and now? Not put
0:07:38 > 0:07:43them through another year of anxiety is not the first thing I will say to
0:07:43 > 0:07:46the honourable Lady is that the government has made clear from the
0:07:46 > 0:07:51beginning that it values the million citizens who are here, the Prime
0:07:51 > 0:07:56Minister has been to them all.Or rather the ones we have records for.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00As it is our clear intention, and it will be legally binding within the
0:08:00 > 0:08:04with drawl bill that they will have the right to have laid out.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06Staying with Brexit for a moment, you may remember the seemingly
0:08:06 > 0:08:09endless debate over the impact assessments - these were studies
0:08:09 > 0:08:12of 58 sectors of the economy and how Brexit would affect them.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14Except that they turned out not to be impact assessments,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17but sectoral analyses.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19It's all coming back isn't it?
0:08:19 > 0:08:24Well, one MP decided to have a look at them.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28I recently booked an appointment in the reading room and I thought it
0:08:28 > 0:08:32would be like an N/A circle of hell that I'll be trapped in there for
0:08:32 > 0:08:36days to read the sectoral analysis. Others of the honourable Lady
0:08:36 > 0:08:40opposite. In fact there are only nine pages on health and social care
0:08:40 > 0:08:43and the entire documents relevant to my/ committee took less than one
0:08:43 > 0:08:44hour to read.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46Several MPs had complained that the documents released
0:08:46 > 0:08:49were incomplete and also that, having promised to hand them over,
0:08:49 > 0:08:50the Brexit Secretary then said impact assessments
0:08:50 > 0:08:51actually didn't exist.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54They complained to the Speaker that this amounted to
0:08:54 > 0:08:55a contempt of Parliament.
0:08:55 > 0:09:02John Bercow delivered his verdict.
0:09:02 > 0:09:08Ministers could with advantage have been a considerably clearer in their
0:09:08 > 0:09:16statements. Particularly in the challenging lines of questioning in
0:09:16 > 0:09:19select committees, which are based upon a genuine misconception.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21The Speaker said he'd "carefully" considered the accounts given
0:09:21 > 0:09:23by ministers but he didn't consider their conduct amounted
0:09:23 > 0:09:30to a contempt of Parliament.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32It's exactly six months since the horrific fire
0:09:32 > 0:09:34at the Grenfell Tower block in London.
0:09:34 > 0:09:35A memorial service has been held in honour
0:09:36 > 0:09:39of the seventy-one people who died.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42Members of the royal family, Theresa May, survivors and families
0:09:42 > 0:09:43of the victims attended the multi-faith service
0:09:43 > 0:09:47at St Paul's Cathedral.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49In the Lords, the Government was asked about new housing
0:09:49 > 0:09:55for those left homeless and traumatised by the fire.
0:09:55 > 0:10:02Six months is a very long time to be living in hotel accommodation, and
0:10:02 > 0:10:06in no way to spend Christmas of honourable, unsettled and
0:10:06 > 0:10:09traumatised. Can the noble Lords tell the House what specific action
0:10:09 > 0:10:12the government are taking to get these families into accommodation in
0:10:12 > 0:10:20the new year?To bring me has up to date, 151 homes were lost in the
0:10:20 > 0:10:26fire. Some of those homes were overcrowded, others have
0:10:26 > 0:10:29multi-generational households who now wish to divide. 210 households
0:10:29 > 0:10:34that formerly lived in rental tower need to be rehoused. Hundred and 44
0:10:34 > 0:10:38households have accepted an offer of either temporary or permanent
0:10:38 > 0:10:44accommodation. 99 have moved income of 54 are temporary and 45 are into
0:10:44 > 0:10:47permanent housing. I are into permanent housing. 111 RN emergency
0:10:47 > 0:10:51accommodations boast up 66 have yet to accept an option of temporary or
0:10:51 > 0:10:59permanent. We ask what action is being taken. The Royal Borough of
0:10:59 > 0:11:01Kingston and Chelsea plan by Christmas to have acquired the good
0:11:01 > 0:11:09homes. They are acquiring to homes a day. I quite agree that Christmas is
0:11:09 > 0:11:13no time to spend in emergency, nation, the government is acutely
0:11:13 > 0:11:17aware of that. In the four hotels or most of the families are, specific
0:11:17 > 0:11:21arrangements are made for the families have space of their own to
0:11:21 > 0:11:25meet each other and entertain their wider families that they want to. A
0:11:25 > 0:11:29lot of services are being put on by voluntary groups and faith groups of
0:11:29 > 0:11:32because his period to help them support those families. We very much
0:11:32 > 0:11:37hope that by June of next year everyone will have moved into
0:11:37 > 0:11:41permanent accommodation. But families need to move in their own
0:11:41 > 0:11:45time. Some are in emergency accommodation, not wanting to move
0:11:45 > 0:11:49into temporary accommodation because they might have to move twice. And
0:11:49 > 0:11:52the world Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is doing intensive work at
0:11:52 > 0:11:55getting along side the families finding out what accommodation they
0:11:55 > 0:11:59need and where they need it and sticking to match that with the 300
0:11:59 > 0:12:04houses that they are acquiring. Could I remind the Minister that the
0:12:04 > 0:12:08government statement on the gun fell a fire of the 19th of October it was
0:12:08 > 0:12:15said they were expecting to be 300 suitable local, permanent properties
0:12:15 > 0:12:21by Christmas. And yet only 45 households have actually moved in.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Could I ask the Minister whether he has confidence in the local council
0:12:25 > 0:12:29to deliver, or whether it may be time for the government to intervene
0:12:29 > 0:12:35more directly?The government has no plans to the commissions into the
0:12:35 > 0:12:38world Borough of Camden and Chelsea, they have a new leader. They have
0:12:38 > 0:12:42any chief executive. The government is establishing a task force to make
0:12:42 > 0:12:46sure the world Borough of Kensington and Chelsea live up to the
0:12:46 > 0:12:52expectation that everyone has of what they plan to do. Some of those
0:12:52 > 0:12:54in temporary accommodation want that temporary accommodation to become a
0:12:54 > 0:12:59permanent home. The world Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is
0:12:59 > 0:13:03approaching the relevant landlords to see if I can take place. Some of
0:13:03 > 0:13:06those an emergency accommodation have already accepted permanent
0:13:06 > 0:13:11accommodation, but it takes time to complete and fit out to the house,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14to put into the goods for the families to move in. I'm conscious
0:13:14 > 0:13:18that there is an and patients on behalf of your lordships to make
0:13:18 > 0:13:22progress. I am confident that the Royal Borough of Kensington and
0:13:22 > 0:13:27Chelsea are planning to spend nearly a quarter of £1 billion acquiring
0:13:27 > 0:13:32property and Hanau got the message the formal lack of emotional
0:13:32 > 0:13:41intelligence is behind us and they're getting on with the job.Are
0:13:41 > 0:13:48any of those who are claiming now social housing, work any of those
0:13:48 > 0:13:55tenants of Grenfell Tower who had moved out and unlawfully left there
0:13:55 > 0:14:00accommodation to more than one family? I don't think we need have
0:14:00 > 0:14:02too much sympathy for people who behaved like that.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Lord Young said the assistance from the council was for those
0:14:05 > 0:14:09who were living at Grenfell at the time of the fire.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12He has lived through tragic circumstances where people have lost
0:14:12 > 0:14:17their life and he will know better than anyone in this House the trauma
0:14:17 > 0:14:20of those people have been through and we ought to allow them the time
0:14:20 > 0:14:27and space to allow -- to find suitable accommodation to move into.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29You're watching Thursday in Parliament, with me, Mandy Baker.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32Don't forget you can find all our programmes on the BBC iPlayer.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Urgent action is needed to help hundreds of thousands of children
0:14:34 > 0:14:37facing "Dickensian" living conditions.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40That plea came as peers debated a report from
0:14:40 > 0:14:43the Children's Commissioner for England which said
0:14:43 > 0:14:46millions of children were leading vulnerable lives.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48The Labour peer who opened the debate described
0:14:48 > 0:14:51the findings as "horrific".
0:14:51 > 0:14:54A little girl of eight called Hannah lives with her mother
0:14:54 > 0:14:56and younger sister.
0:14:56 > 0:15:01Their father, who has an alcohol problem, has left the family,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05but when he was drunk he sometimes returned.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08When he did, Hannah knew that her responsibility
0:15:08 > 0:15:11was to take her younger sister upstairs to the bedroom
0:15:11 > 0:15:19and hide under the bed.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23However, that does nothing to protect them from hearing
0:15:23 > 0:15:30the beating their mother is getting from their father downstairs.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32When it's over, the little girls see their mother's
0:15:32 > 0:15:33face pouring blood.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36This is not drama but real life for Hannah.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40The police are called and eventually the mother
0:15:40 > 0:15:42and children were told that they had to move,
0:15:42 > 0:15:44so they went to a homeless refuge.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46That was not the end of their nightmare.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48In many respects, it was just the start.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Councils, she said, were facing a £2 billion shortfall in funding
0:15:51 > 0:15:52for children's services by 2020.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56This, my lords, is a Dickensian situation in 2017 with which we must
0:15:56 > 0:15:59come to terms and to which we must respond in a more considered
0:15:59 > 0:16:03and profound way than we have done up to now.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06It needs a high-level response, the highest,
0:16:06 > 0:16:13from the Prime Minister.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16Only by Mrs May expressing her determination that this scandal,
0:16:16 > 0:16:18for that is what it is, will now be solved that government
0:16:18 > 0:16:21departments will work together, pooling ideas and resources.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Is there any chance that progress will be made?
0:16:24 > 0:16:30There are around 700,000 hidden young carers in the UK,
0:16:30 > 0:16:35all of whom are children under the age of 18.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39One in 12 of these children are caring for someone at home
0:16:39 > 0:16:43for more than 15 hours a week, delivering significant caring tasks
0:16:43 > 0:16:45such as administering medication, toileting,
0:16:45 > 0:16:51bathing, domestic care and emotional support.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53Around one in plenty of these young people miss school because of
0:16:53 > 0:16:55their caring responsibilities.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59However, these children are hidden from view, caring in silence,
0:16:59 > 0:17:04under the radar of social workers and teachers, carrying a huge
0:17:04 > 0:17:08burden of responsibility, often without support.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11At the beginning of her report, the commissioner quotes AA Milne.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15I feel it is only right to start in a similar manner.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19"Promise me you'll always remember, you're braver than you believe,
0:17:19 > 0:17:23and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."
0:17:23 > 0:17:25We must try to get vulnerable children, in particular,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27to think like this.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30When something goes wrong for a child, there should always be
0:17:30 > 0:17:32someone there to help.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35It is our duty to make sure that children and families
0:17:35 > 0:17:36have that support.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39He said action was being taken across government to reform care
0:17:39 > 0:17:43and mental health services and protect victims of abuse.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Where local authorities are not delivering children's social care
0:17:46 > 0:17:49services to the standard we expect, we have shown that we
0:17:49 > 0:17:51will take tough action.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55We are appointing expert advisers and challenging progress
0:17:56 > 0:17:59to drive rapid improvement.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02Where it is found that a local authority does not have the capacity
0:18:02 > 0:18:06to bring about the changes needed, we will not hesitate
0:18:06 > 0:18:08to remove service control.
0:18:08 > 0:18:10Lady Dean had a warning for the minister.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15The Children's Commissioner's report is going to become an annual one,
0:18:15 > 0:18:19so we will be able to watch and comment rather forensically
0:18:19 > 0:18:24on just how well, or not, we as a nation are doing,
0:18:24 > 0:18:28through our Government, for the children of England
0:18:28 > 0:18:31who desperately need help in so many areas.
0:18:32 > 0:18:33Lady Dean.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Now, the Committee on Standards in Public Life revealed this week
0:18:36 > 0:18:40that a third of parliamentary candidates at the election in June
0:18:40 > 0:18:44had experienced inappropriate or intimidating behaviour.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46Candidates of all parties were affected - though Conservatives
0:18:46 > 0:18:50were twice as likely to be abused as Labour ones.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52And the aggressive behaviour can intensify
0:18:52 > 0:18:55once a candidate's elected - as the Conservative Sarah Wollaston
0:18:55 > 0:18:57has found to her cost.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00On one of the busiest Saturdays in the run-up
0:19:00 > 0:19:03to Christmas in Totnes, local activists, including, sadly,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06the local Labour Party, decided to parade with a real coffin
0:19:06 > 0:19:11and leave a large and carefully constructed model of a coffin
0:19:11 > 0:19:14at my constituency office.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Does the Leader of the House feel, particularly in the light
0:19:17 > 0:19:20of the report on intimidation in public life that was published
0:19:20 > 0:19:23yesterday, that the line of decency was overstepped?
0:19:23 > 0:19:26There are real dangers in using the imagery of death
0:19:26 > 0:19:30and directing it against individuals to whip up hatred.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33Most importantly of all, this kind of thing deters really
0:19:33 > 0:19:41good candidates from applying for positions in public life.
0:19:41 > 0:19:46I was disgusted, as I am sure all right honourable members were,
0:19:46 > 0:19:52to hear about my honourable friend's awful experience.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55I texted her at the time to say that I hoped she was OK.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57It must have been absolutely terrifying.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01It was truly horrible and we should all condemn this kind of behaviour
0:20:01 > 0:20:04and call it out wherever we see it.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08Lord Bew's report on the abuse and intimidation of candidates
0:20:08 > 0:20:12highlights that this is not a simple matter of holding
0:20:12 > 0:20:14politicians to account.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19It goes far beyond that and it will be a deterrent to diversity
0:20:19 > 0:20:26and the high calibre of candidates we want to see
0:20:26 > 0:20:27in Parliament.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30We all combine in condemning that action against my honourable friend.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32Andrea Leadsom.
0:20:32 > 0:20:33The Chief Inspector of the Probation Service,
0:20:33 > 0:20:38Dame Glenys Stacey, has delivered a scathing verdict on the use
0:20:38 > 0:20:40of private firms to manage offenders who are considered
0:20:40 > 0:20:42low to medium risk.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44She said "deep-rooted problems" meant that
0:20:44 > 0:20:48Community Rehabilitation Companies - or CRCs - were not transforming
0:20:48 > 0:20:52rehabilitation in the way ministers had hoped.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54Several peers were especially alarmed at the use of
0:20:54 > 0:20:56supervision by telephone.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00This well-researched report, which I commend to the House
0:21:00 > 0:21:04as of interest to us all, presents a thoroughly dispiriting
0:21:04 > 0:21:09account of just how great has been the deterioration
0:21:09 > 0:21:11and the effectiveness of the Probation Service
0:21:11 > 0:21:14in the past three years.
0:21:14 > 0:21:19It is now clear that the so-called innovative programme has resulted
0:21:19 > 0:21:23in a disjointed and incoherent system despite
0:21:23 > 0:21:26the hard work of the staff.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31I hope the Minister will agree that the victims of crime,
0:21:31 > 0:21:35the courts of this country and local communities deserve better,
0:21:35 > 0:21:39and I hope urgent action will now be taken to recover what has been lost
0:21:39 > 0:21:43in these recent changes.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48My Lords, we recognise the concerns identified by the inspectorate
0:21:48 > 0:21:51and are working hard to address these problems.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Many of the performance issues with CRCs stem from the financial
0:21:54 > 0:21:59challenges that providers are facing, which has meant
0:21:59 > 0:22:02that we have addressed those contractual terms.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06However, I observe that nearly two-thirds of CRCs have reduced
0:22:06 > 0:22:08the number of people reoffending.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11One of the important issues that the Chief Inspector raises
0:22:11 > 0:22:15in her report is the fact that low-risk people, who are
0:22:15 > 0:22:18supposed to be supervised by the Probation Service,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20can become high-risk.
0:22:20 > 0:22:21She gave the example of someone convicted
0:22:21 > 0:22:25of driving while disqualified, who was receiving
0:22:25 > 0:22:29telephone supervision - one call every six weeks -
0:22:29 > 0:22:33and who eventually assaulted a previous partner.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Does the noble and learned Lord accept that a phone call every six
0:22:36 > 0:22:40weeks is no way to supervise people who are supposed to be
0:22:40 > 0:22:43under the supervision of the Probation Service?
0:22:43 > 0:22:46My Lords, supervision of offenders needs to be proportionate
0:22:46 > 0:22:48to the risk they present.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51In some cases, remote contact may be appropriate for lower-risk offenders
0:22:51 > 0:22:53who are complying with their orders.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57However, we recognise that best practice is for probation officers
0:22:57 > 0:22:59to work with offenders face to face.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03Listening to the Minister, he has been meticulous in not
0:23:03 > 0:23:07thanking or supporting the inspector for her report.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09I invite him to do so.
0:23:09 > 0:23:14During my 12 years in government I came across Dame Glenys Stacey,
0:23:14 > 0:23:18and she is one of the finest public servants I had contact
0:23:18 > 0:23:21with during my time as a Minister.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24She deserves incredible support and the thanks
0:23:24 > 0:23:27of the House for the report, and I should like to hear
0:23:27 > 0:23:29it from the Minister.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31My Lords, I am perfectly happy to endorse the observations
0:23:31 > 0:23:33made by the noble Lord.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35Had I been asked about that point earlier, I would have
0:23:36 > 0:23:45responded in the same way.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Is the Minister really saying that the Government
0:23:47 > 0:23:49are satisfied with a telephone form of probation, because I do not
0:23:50 > 0:23:51believe anybody in this House is?
0:23:51 > 0:23:53My Lords, we are not satisfied with the telephone
0:23:53 > 0:23:56form of probation but, as I said, contact with offenders
0:23:56 > 0:24:00has to be proportionate to the risk they present.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04My Lords, I assure the Minister that when these proposals were put
0:24:04 > 0:24:10through by the Coalition Government they were ideologically driven,
0:24:10 > 0:24:17and some of the flaws that have emerged reveal the kind
0:24:17 > 0:24:21of compromises that were created in the Probation Service.
0:24:21 > 0:24:27Before these reforms, the Probation Service had
0:24:27 > 0:24:29an excellent report.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33We now have this disastrous report.
0:24:33 > 0:24:38If the Minister is approaching this ideologically, I put it to him
0:24:38 > 0:24:43that there is now a strong case for handing probation over wholly
0:24:43 > 0:24:46to the National Probation Service.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50My Lords, I am not approaching this matter as an ideologue.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53I am approaching it as a Minister with responsibility
0:24:53 > 0:24:56for the implementation of the existing system of probation,
0:24:56 > 0:24:59in which we continue to have faith.
0:24:59 > 0:25:00Lord Keen.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03Just before I go, misleading the House of Commons is considered
0:25:03 > 0:25:07a very serious offence by the Parliamentary authorities,
0:25:07 > 0:25:10so one MP was anxious to set the record straight.
0:25:10 > 0:25:15Point of order, Mr Speaker.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18I fear that I inadvertently misled the House during business questions,
0:25:18 > 0:25:22when I suggested that honourable and right honourable members
0:25:22 > 0:25:24could enjoy the pantomime of Dick Whittington at the Millfield
0:25:24 > 0:25:26theatre this Christmas.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29In fact, that was the last pantomime that I saw there.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32If honourable members wish to attend the Millfield theatre this year,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35it will be to enjoy Jack and the Beanstalk.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37LAUGHTER.
0:25:37 > 0:25:38Oh, no, it won't.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41And that's it, but do join me at the same time
0:25:41 > 0:25:43tomorrow for our round-up of the week at Westminster.
0:25:43 > 0:25:48But for now, from me, Mandy Baker, goodbye.