0:00:15 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24The main news from Westminster: calls on the Chancellor
0:00:24 > 0:00:26to reverse the cut in tax credits
0:00:26 > 0:00:32after the government's defeat in the Lords.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35If he brings forward proposals to reverse the cuts to tax credits,
0:00:35 > 0:00:38clearly and in full, he will not be attacked by this side of the House.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41Indeed, he will be applauded.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44And magistrates tell MPs they know of cases where people are
0:00:44 > 0:00:50people are attempting to plead guilty to keep their costs down.
0:00:50 > 0:00:56Some magistrates have refused to accept an equivocal plea.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58In other words, a plea that is a not-guilty,
0:00:58 > 0:00:59but they have pleaded guilty.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01Some magistrates have refused to accept that plea.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05But first, the morning after the night before, and
0:01:05 > 0:01:08George Osborne has responded to the defeat the House of Lords inflicted
0:01:08 > 0:01:11on the government during the vote on the changes to tax credits.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13At Treasury questions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told
0:01:13 > 0:01:17MPs the government would continue to reform tax credits.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20But it would work to lessen the impact on people who claim them.
0:01:20 > 0:01:30Last night, unelected Labour and Liberal peers
0:01:30 > 0:01:32voted down the financial measures on tax credits approved
0:01:32 > 0:01:34by this elected House of Commons.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36That raises clear constitutional issues which we will deal with.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39We will continue to reform tax credits and save the money needed,
0:01:39 > 0:01:43so that Britain lives within its means, while, at the same time,
0:01:43 > 0:01:47lessening the impact on families during the transition.
0:01:47 > 0:01:52I will set out the plans in the Autumn Statement.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56We remain as determined as ever to build the low tax, low welfare, high
0:01:56 > 0:02:01wage economy that Britain needs, and the British people want to see.
0:02:01 > 0:02:02Wes Streeting.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04Thank you, Mr Speaker.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07If the Chancellor had listened to the evidence from the outset,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10he wouldn't be in this mess, and if his backbenchers had voted
0:02:10 > 0:02:12with their feet, with their consciences, there would
0:02:12 > 0:02:15be an alignment of opinion between this House and the Other Place.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Instead of manufacturing a phoney constitutional crisis,
0:02:18 > 0:02:22why won't he put his toys back in the pram, and appreciate he needs
0:02:22 > 0:02:25to go back to the drawing board with his failed policy that
0:02:25 > 0:02:29hits working people the hardest?
0:02:29 > 0:02:34We will deliver the welfare savings that we were elected to deliver.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36We will help people in transition to that lower welfare,
0:02:36 > 0:02:40higher wage economy.
0:02:40 > 0:02:47Does the Chancellor agree that whatever arguments there may be
0:02:47 > 0:02:50in this House on the tax credit dispute, in overturning the settled
0:02:50 > 0:02:55will of the elected Chamber, the unelected Lords have exercised a
0:02:55 > 0:02:57power that a Chamber of Parliament in the tax area,
0:02:57 > 0:03:04where for at least 100 years, it has been well established that
0:03:04 > 0:03:09they should have only the legitimacy of a consultative assembly.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12I think that the Chair of the Treasury Select Committee
0:03:12 > 0:03:15makes an important point.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18On only five occasions in recent decades
0:03:18 > 0:03:21has the House of Lords ever blocked or rejected a statutory instrument.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23Never on a financial matter.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25And we had a whole range of opinions, from Lord Butler,
0:03:25 > 0:03:29the former Cabinet Secretary, to constitutional experts like
0:03:29 > 0:03:30Vernon Bogdanor, telling us yesterday
0:03:30 > 0:03:33that this was unprecedented.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36It is something that we are going to have to address.
0:03:36 > 0:03:42The Prime Minister has made that very clear.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46And that is what we have got to do to make sure that the elected
0:03:46 > 0:03:48House of Commons is responsible for the tax-and-spend decisions that
0:03:48 > 0:03:50affect the people of this country.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52The Chancellor is in denial.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57Is it not the case, Mr Speaker, absolute denial, that yesterday,
0:03:57 > 0:04:0026th of October, demonstrated two things?
0:04:00 > 0:04:03The Chancellor has lost his political touch, and his chance of
0:04:03 > 0:04:08being Prime Minister has just gone up in a puff of ermine-clad smoke.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14Well, as ever, when pressed, actually, all they want to talk
0:04:14 > 0:04:21about is party political games, rather than sorting out the mess
0:04:21 > 0:04:25that this country was in six or seven years ago, and as a result of
0:04:25 > 0:04:28the changes we have made, there are hundreds of thousands of
0:04:28 > 0:04:30more people in Scotland with jobs.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32Businesses are investing in Scotland, as they are
0:04:32 > 0:04:32across the United Kingdom.
0:04:32 > 0:04:38And we will go on making those changes.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41The 3 million people out there, who have done everything asked
0:04:41 > 0:04:43of them, bringing up their children, going to work, this
0:04:43 > 0:04:44is not a constitutional matter.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47They will lose ?1300 a year.
0:04:47 > 0:04:53Can I, given what happened on the Other Place last night,
0:04:53 > 0:04:58can I reassure the Chancellor that, if he brings forward proposals to
0:04:58 > 0:05:01reverse the cuts to tax credits, fairly and in full, he will not be
0:05:01 > 0:05:09attacked by this side of the House.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13Indeed, he will be...Indeed, he will be applauded.
0:05:13 > 0:05:18But, can he assure us that whatever proposals he brings forward,
0:05:18 > 0:05:23he will not support any that an independent assessment demonstrates
0:05:23 > 0:05:30will cause any child to be forced to live below the poverty line?
0:05:30 > 0:05:33There is a difference between those who say we want to make no savings
0:05:33 > 0:05:37to welfare at all, we want to abolish things like the benefit cap,
0:05:37 > 0:05:43who are not prepared to make savings at all to the tax credit system and
0:05:43 > 0:05:46those who have said, yes, we do want to move to a lower welfare society,
0:05:46 > 0:05:48but we want help in the transition.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50Now, if he has proposals to help in the transition,
0:05:50 > 0:05:52of course I will listen to them.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54But if he is again promoting uncapped
0:05:54 > 0:05:56welfare and unlimited borrowing, then I don't think the British
0:05:56 > 0:05:59people are going to listen to him.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03The Chancellor has a choice before him.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05He can push on with the tax giveaways to
0:06:05 > 0:06:09multinational corporations.
0:06:09 > 0:06:14He can press on with tax cuts to the wealthiest
0:06:14 > 0:06:18few in inheritance tax, that he announced in his summer Budget.
0:06:18 > 0:06:25Or, he can reverse those tax breaks to the few and instead go
0:06:25 > 0:06:30for a less excessive surplus target in 2019-20 and be
0:06:30 > 0:06:33in a position to avoid penalising 3 million working families with these
0:06:33 > 0:06:35tax credit cuts and stick to his self-imposed charter.
0:06:35 > 0:06:41Is he prepared to listen to reason on this matter?
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Is he willing, or is anyone on that side prepared to step up and
0:06:44 > 0:06:47show some leadership on this issue?
0:06:47 > 0:06:59He says, abandon your surplus rule, run a deficit for ever,
0:06:59 > 0:07:00I profoundly disagree with that central judgment.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02I think that, if you borrow for ever,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05if you are not prepared to make difficult decisions on welfare,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07you are going to condemn this country to decline.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10And that means that, as a result, people are going to become
0:07:10 > 0:07:12unemployed and living standards are going to fall.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14That is not the Britain I want to see.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16We are going to go on taking those difficult decisions,
0:07:16 > 0:07:19to deliver that lower welfare, lower tax, higher wage economy.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22And this elected House of Commons is going to go on promoting the
0:07:22 > 0:07:24economic plan that delivers that.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26How much would the Chancellor save to the public purse
0:07:26 > 0:07:28by abolishing the House of Lords?
0:07:29 > 0:07:35LAUGHTER AND SHOUTS OF "HEAR, HEAR!"
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Now, now, that is a very decent proposal
0:07:40 > 0:07:45for the Autumn Statement, which we will give proper consideration to!
0:07:45 > 0:07:48MPs were not finished with the subject just yet.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51After Treasury questions, one MP wanted an emergency debate
0:07:51 > 0:07:52on tax credits, saying she needed reassurance
0:07:52 > 0:07:58for the families affected.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00I seek leave to propose that the House should debate
0:08:00 > 0:08:03a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05Namely, the uncertainty caused to millions of UK families,
0:08:05 > 0:08:08following the vote on tax credits in the House of Lords yesterday.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12Even our unelected, unaccountable and, in my view,
0:08:12 > 0:08:17rather bloated second Chamber unites to tell the government that they've
0:08:17 > 0:08:18got it very wrong.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Then, it is incumbent on the government to listen.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24When even the leader of the Tory party
0:08:24 > 0:08:27in Scotland tells her own government that these tax credits are,
0:08:27 > 0:08:29"not acceptable" and that they need to think again, then it is incumbent
0:08:30 > 0:08:31on the government to listen.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33The Speaker did not grant Dr Whiteford
0:08:33 > 0:08:36the emergency debate and it prompted a flood of points of order.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40Across the House, there is a great deal of genuine
0:08:40 > 0:08:44concern about the implications of events in the unelected Chamber
0:08:44 > 0:08:51last night, and many of us would welcome your initial view
0:08:51 > 0:08:52on the constitutional implications of that.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Can you give me some guidance, Mr Speaker?
0:08:54 > 0:09:00Is there not a constitutional role for the Other Place
0:09:00 > 0:09:03in giving pause to this House when this House has made a decision that
0:09:03 > 0:09:07is out of sync with feelings in the country, so that perhaps this House
0:09:07 > 0:09:08can look at that decision again?
0:09:08 > 0:09:16Further to the point of order, I wonder what you, Mr Speaker,
0:09:16 > 0:09:21will do to remind their Lordships of our declaration of privilege from
0:09:21 > 0:09:261678, declaring that all financial matters pertain to this House.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31A privilege that the House of Lords has only now ignored three times
0:09:31 > 0:09:33since 1860, and our voice piece, our mouthpiece,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36will you, Mr Speaker, bring this to the attention of their
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Lordships in no uncertain terms?
0:09:39 > 0:09:41The responsibility of the Chair is for order.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Nothing disorderly has occurred.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49There has been no procedural impropriety.
0:09:49 > 0:09:56That would not have been allowed.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00Whether people like what happened last night, on the substance of
0:10:00 > 0:10:03the issue or in terms of their views on constitutionality, is a matter
0:10:03 > 0:10:07for each and every one of them.
0:10:07 > 0:10:12This is now a matter for the government to take forward
0:10:12 > 0:10:18as it thinks fit.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21The House of Lords has failed in its bid to block moves to speed
0:10:21 > 0:10:24up the transfer to individual voter registration.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Everyone on the old head of household system is required to sign
0:10:27 > 0:10:32up individually on the register.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Over the summer, the government decided to switch to the new system
0:10:35 > 0:10:39by the 1st of December, 2015.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42But a Lib Dem, Lord Tyler, warned that 1.9 million people
0:10:42 > 0:10:47remained on the old register, and could lose their vote.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49At a stroke, ministers are prepared to disenfranchise
0:10:49 > 0:10:53huge numbers of electors.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57For example, 415,013, in London.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02231,345 in Scotland.
0:11:02 > 0:11:08And 68,042 in Wales.
0:11:08 > 0:11:13Now, it is of course possible that these figures may be squeezed
0:11:13 > 0:11:19down as we approach the important elections in May 2016, but it is
0:11:19 > 0:11:22still highly likely that people who think they are on the register will
0:11:22 > 0:11:28find themselves unable to vote when the time comes. If this order
0:11:28 > 0:11:33is allowed to slip through, the register in December 2015, which
0:11:33 > 0:11:38will be used as the basis for the next round of constituency boundary
0:11:38 > 0:11:46changes, will be missing large numbers of voters. While those
0:11:46 > 0:11:48people could reregister between December and April to vote in
0:11:48 > 0:11:52the elections next year to which I have referred, these voters will be
0:11:52 > 0:11:58irrevocably wiped off the face of our democracy for the purposes of
0:11:58 > 0:12:01the constituency boundary review.
0:12:01 > 0:12:11They simply won't count when the new constituencies are drawn up.
0:12:11 > 0:12:19We are skating on rather thin ice, when the Boundary Commission report
0:12:19 > 0:12:21review was prevented from being implemented on the last Parliament,
0:12:21 > 0:12:24because he and his colleagues voted against the clerk's advice in an
0:12:24 > 0:12:27amendment which was out of order.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30If the Noble Lord has actually read what the Electoral Commission has
0:12:30 > 0:12:32advised this House, I don't think he would be adopting that position.
0:12:33 > 0:12:33Let's be clear.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37The government are making a rash decision here.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39A decision that is not supported by the Electoral Commission.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42They have posed peers to vote for the motion in the name
0:12:42 > 0:12:44of their Noble Lords, Lord Tyler.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46My amendment just incorporates that what the government are
0:12:46 > 0:12:48doing goes against their advice.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51The commission cannot take a decision to recommend that we vote
0:12:51 > 0:12:54for the motion from Lord Tyler.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56The great majority of those registered electors who were
0:12:56 > 0:12:59carried over from the old system have now done what was required
0:12:59 > 0:13:01to make themselves a full and enduring part
0:13:01 > 0:13:07of the new arrangements.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10All those who have not done so have now been reminded
0:13:10 > 0:13:18at least nine times, in one way or another, of the need for action.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Through the deadline, which the Government set in July,
0:13:21 > 0:13:27as it was empowered to do under the 2013 act, it has, in effect,
0:13:27 > 0:13:30issued a final call for action.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33I did not support the fatal motion put forward by the Liberal Democrats
0:13:33 > 0:13:37last night, because I thought it was constitutionally inappropriate,
0:13:37 > 0:13:39but I shall support this one.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42Not least because, arguably, the constitutional issue
0:13:42 > 0:13:46at stake today is perhaps even more important than the ones
0:13:46 > 0:13:48your Lordships debated last night.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51The struggle for the right to vote defines the history
0:13:51 > 0:13:53of our democracy,
0:13:53 > 0:13:58and electoral registration makes that right a reality.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00The core of what we're debating comes down to the accuracy
0:14:00 > 0:14:03of the new electoral registers.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07Do we keep on the new electoral registers ghost entries,
0:14:07 > 0:14:11entries who may have moved house, died, or may never even have
0:14:11 > 0:14:13existed in the first place?
0:14:13 > 0:14:17Are these ghost entries living, breathing voters, as the noble lord
0:14:17 > 0:14:21Lord Tyler calls them, or hundreds of thousands of database errors,
0:14:21 > 0:14:26which need to be removed ahead of the important elections next year?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29We believe that, after 18 months of transition, and more than a decade
0:14:29 > 0:14:31of waiting, as we enter a year of elections,
0:14:31 > 0:14:33and possibly a referendum on Europe - possibly -
0:14:33 > 0:14:37the time has come to move fully to the new system.
0:14:37 > 0:14:38You are watching Tuesday in Parliament with me,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Georgina Pattinson.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43Still to come:
0:14:43 > 0:14:48A chilly reception, as the Met Office loses its BBC contract.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Well, back to the battle over the Government's plan
0:14:52 > 0:14:55for cuts to working tax credits.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59In spite of the delay to the changes imposed by the defeats
0:14:59 > 0:15:03in the House of Lords, opposition MPs have attempted once again to
0:15:03 > 0:15:06kill off the cuts for good.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09But amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill, put forward by
0:15:09 > 0:15:12Labour and the SNP, were rejected.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Opening debate on the legislation, Labour condemned the insistence
0:15:15 > 0:15:19from ministers that the cuts would be offset by tax changes
0:15:19 > 0:15:22and the new National Living Wage.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25It is completely fallacious to suggest that
0:15:25 > 0:15:30if you give extra money, through increasing the personal allowance
0:15:30 > 0:15:35or increasing the national minimum wage, you will offset the losses.
0:15:35 > 0:15:40Only 25% of the losses will be offset by the national minimum wage,
0:15:40 > 0:15:44and only for 25% of the population.
0:15:44 > 0:15:49It is, Madam Deputy Speaker, very straightforwardly, a con.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51Under the last Government, spending on tax credits rose
0:15:51 > 0:15:55from ?6 billion to ?30 billion, but at the same time,
0:15:55 > 0:15:58in-work poverty actually rose by 20%.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01Why does he think that's happened if it's such a great success?
0:16:01 > 0:16:03What does the honourable gentleman say to
0:16:03 > 0:16:05many of my constituents who've contacted me,
0:16:05 > 0:16:07who are just above the tax credit limit,
0:16:07 > 0:16:11and whose hard-working taxes are subsidising low pay?
0:16:11 > 0:16:14Will my honourable friend categorically explain, in the
0:16:14 > 0:16:20simplest of terms, that we wouldn't do what the Government are doing?
0:16:20 > 0:16:25It has taken ?4.2 billion off the lowest-paid in society.
0:16:25 > 0:16:31People losing ?1,300, it pushes 200,000 kids into poverty -
0:16:31 > 0:16:33that's not what we are going to do.
0:16:33 > 0:16:37Our view today is the Government should repeal these measures.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40Our view is it is wrong to seek to balance the books,
0:16:40 > 0:16:44in this country or any country, on the back of the working poor -
0:16:44 > 0:16:48on those with low and middle incomes, doing the right thing.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51It's the wrong thing to do and we will not do it.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55I don't want to see people badly damaged by a premature reduction
0:16:55 > 0:16:59in a benefit payment when the other things are not working for them, and
0:16:59 > 0:17:01they end up with too little money.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03There would then have to be recourse to the hardship fund
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and all the other things that are going to be in place anyway.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10So it's in our mutual interest that this process is done smoothly,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13but it cannot be done by ignoring the problem, pretending that
0:17:14 > 0:17:16the Welfare Bill is currently fine,
0:17:16 > 0:17:18pretending there are no disincentives in the system.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23Let me say it loud and clear - the SNP will oppose these ideological,
0:17:23 > 0:17:28regressive and utterly punitive tax credit cuts, with every opportunity
0:17:28 > 0:17:31open to us, today and every day,
0:17:31 > 0:17:34because we realise the damage this will cause
0:17:34 > 0:17:38to working family incomes, to levels of poverty,
0:17:38 > 0:17:40to levels of child poverty, in these isles,
0:17:40 > 0:17:45and to the social cohesion in every community in the United Kingdom.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47We have heard it again today, that, all but...
0:17:47 > 0:17:53As the tax credits come off, we are going to have tax cuts, we
0:17:53 > 0:18:01are going to have additional child support for looking after children.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06We're going to have reductions in rent and all of those things
0:18:06 > 0:18:07will mitigate against it.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10And, of course, on top of that, we're going to have the increase
0:18:10 > 0:18:12in the National Living Wage.
0:18:12 > 0:18:16But the tax credit cuts are coming in immediately.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20These things are going to be brought in over a period of time.
0:18:20 > 0:18:26The Government is very pragmatic and sensible, and it will be responsive.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29LAUGHTER
0:18:29 > 0:18:32The Government is going to make announcements in the
0:18:32 > 0:18:36Autumn Statement, and that will completely and adequately deal with
0:18:36 > 0:18:38the issue that has been raised.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41These cuts are going to hit hard-working families, who are
0:18:41 > 0:18:44struggling to make ends meet, and, perhaps most important of all from
0:18:44 > 0:18:47the Government's point of view, these changes are actually going to
0:18:47 > 0:18:50reduce the incentive to work, something which I thought
0:18:50 > 0:18:53the Government favoured.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56The Chancellor has said he has listened to concerns from colleagues
0:18:56 > 0:19:00in this House, and will come forward with proposals in the Autumn
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Statement to achieve the goal of reforming tax credits, saving the
0:19:04 > 0:19:08money needed to secure our economy, while at the same time, helping
0:19:08 > 0:19:11in the transition to these changes.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14I do not believe these new clauses are appropriate, therefore,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17for inclusion in the bill.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20And amendments from Labour and the SNP were rejected
0:19:20 > 0:19:24by majorities of 39 and 34 votes.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27Now, there's some evidence defendants are pleading guilty,
0:19:27 > 0:19:29even though they claim to be innocent,
0:19:29 > 0:19:31MPs on the Justice Committee have been told.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35Why? To keep costs down.
0:19:35 > 0:19:36The Criminal Courts Charge was introduced by the
0:19:36 > 0:19:42Coalition Government, and ranges from ?150 to ?1,200.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46The bill is greater if you are convicted under a trial, rather than
0:19:46 > 0:19:51pleading guilty at an early stage.
0:19:51 > 0:19:52The Chairman of the Magistrates Association, Richard Monkhouse,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55was asked, how many magistrates had resigned over the charge?
0:19:55 > 0:19:57We don't have exact numbers.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59We know it's certainly in excess of 50.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01We know that...
0:20:01 > 0:20:04As chairman, I get a lot of e-mails and letters from magistrates who
0:20:04 > 0:20:05have specifically quoted this,
0:20:05 > 0:20:10maybe not as the only reason, but as the final straw
0:20:10 > 0:20:12to a number of reasons.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14There are some who have said, no, this is it,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17I cannot bring myself to do this.
0:20:17 > 0:20:18We are in a difficult position,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20because we are judicial officeholders,
0:20:20 > 0:20:22and if we...
0:20:22 > 0:20:24If I or Malcolm appear in the press saying,
0:20:24 > 0:20:30this is a stupid charge, it shouldn't be awarded,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34and then the following day sit in court and have to deliver that,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37that's actually moving us away from what we're there to do.
0:20:37 > 0:20:38We are there as magistrates.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40We are there as judicial officeholders.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43A couple of cases I've read are people who have said that they
0:20:43 > 0:20:47wanted to pay the fine themselves, and then were reprimanded for that.
0:20:47 > 0:20:48I just wondered...
0:20:48 > 0:20:50You travel up and down the country, if you've come
0:20:50 > 0:20:52across any incidents of that?
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Well, that one reported case is the only case I've heard of,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58and, clearly, it's inappropriate for a judicial officeholder to
0:20:58 > 0:21:03make that offer, kind and thoughtful though it might be.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06We might all have thought about it, but, actually, there are rules.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09And it's like saying to somebody who you've just awarded
0:21:09 > 0:21:12a six months' prison sentence to,
0:21:12 > 0:21:15"If you can't do it all, I'll do the first month for you."
0:21:15 > 0:21:19Some of the evidence we've heard has been about people who are innocent
0:21:19 > 0:21:22of a crime, pleading guilty as a result of this.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26What evidence have you got from your members about
0:21:26 > 0:21:28the propensity of that happening?
0:21:28 > 0:21:33Well, we have some anecdotal evidence that some magistrates have
0:21:33 > 0:21:36refused to accept an equivocal plea.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40In other words, a plea that is "I'm not guilty but I'm pleading guilty."
0:21:40 > 0:21:44They've actually refused to accept that plea.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47That's happened in the past, and the frequency
0:21:47 > 0:21:49of that seems to be increasing,
0:21:49 > 0:21:54but I think we are far too soon down that journey.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56This only came in in April.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58The Government stats are only...
0:21:58 > 0:22:02The last lot of Government stats show to March 2015, so there will
0:22:02 > 0:22:06be no evidence in the official data of what has actually happened,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09how the proportionality of guilty pleas to not-guilty pleas
0:22:09 > 0:22:11might have changed.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16That will be a very interesting piece of stats to look at.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19Finally, there's a cold front blowing in.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22The Met Office has provided the information used
0:22:22 > 0:22:28in BBC weather forecasts since the first radio bulletin in 1922,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31but the BBC says it has to secure the best value for money
0:22:31 > 0:22:32for licence fee payers,
0:22:32 > 0:22:36and now the contract has been put out to tender.
0:22:36 > 0:22:37MPs expressed their concerns,
0:22:37 > 0:22:41as the plans got a frosty reception in Westminster Hall.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44My main reason for raising my concerns and seeking
0:22:44 > 0:22:49this debate are primarily about the wider national interest.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52The historic relationship between the Met Office and the BBC, and
0:22:52 > 0:22:55the relationship with both to Government, have been, and in my
0:22:55 > 0:23:00view, remain, integral to national resilience and emergency planning,
0:23:00 > 0:23:05and in times or arenas of conflict, even of national security.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07The BBC is about to embark on its
0:23:07 > 0:23:09ten-year charter renegotiation renewal.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13This is the chance for the BBC to agree its size,
0:23:13 > 0:23:15its scope, and its strategy, within the financial envelope
0:23:15 > 0:23:18provided by the licence fee.
0:23:18 > 0:23:19And given the financial constraints on
0:23:19 > 0:23:22the corporation, by the funding levels already announced by the
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Government, there is a widespread consensus that the BBC will have to
0:23:25 > 0:23:29do less if it's to protect quality.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32Yet, in a briefing provided to me, in response to my concerns about the
0:23:32 > 0:23:36BBC decision, the BBC says it wants, and I quote,
0:23:36 > 0:23:39to enhance our position as
0:23:39 > 0:23:43the leading destination for weather information, with ambitions to be
0:23:43 > 0:23:45the best provider of weather information in the
0:23:45 > 0:23:48United Kingdom, and in the world.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51Mr Streeter, we already have the world's best
0:23:51 > 0:23:53provider of weather information.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55It's called the Met Office.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59This feels to me like another example of the BBC trying to do
0:23:59 > 0:24:03everything and grow its empire, rather than do what the words of
0:24:03 > 0:24:06its director-general Tony Hall says it should be doing, which is,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09and I quote, "partnering with others".
0:24:09 > 0:24:11Many have therefore argued that the decision
0:24:11 > 0:24:14of the BBC to end its contract with the Met Office has been taken
0:24:14 > 0:24:18purely for commercial reasons.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21Dr Grant Allen, atmospheric physicist at the University
0:24:21 > 0:24:25of Manchester, a leading expert in the field, has said, in my opinion,
0:24:25 > 0:24:30and I quote, the BBC's decision was taken on cost grounds and not
0:24:30 > 0:24:34on predictive skills grounds.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37We would, therefore, get less accurate weather forecasts
0:24:37 > 0:24:41from the BBC than before, if the BBC gets rid of the
0:24:41 > 0:24:44Met Office, and that is sad news.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47I find it difficult to divorce this decision and this debate from
0:24:47 > 0:24:53the wider context of the charter renewal process, and the sustained
0:24:53 > 0:24:59attack the BBC is coming under from the Government and its friends.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03The BBC is under immense pressure at the moment to
0:25:03 > 0:25:07prove to the Government and the wider public that it is
0:25:07 > 0:25:10efficient and good value for money.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12The Met Office will continue to provide the official UK forecast,
0:25:12 > 0:25:16official guidance and warnings, as the single authoritative voice,
0:25:16 > 0:25:21as it were, during high-impact weather events -
0:25:21 > 0:25:23storms, gales, flooding, and the like.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27And as with all broadcasters, we expect the BBC to continue to
0:25:27 > 0:25:31carry the Met Office's national severe weather warnings.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33So, that applies to all broadcasters, regardless
0:25:33 > 0:25:34of who they are using to provide their
0:25:34 > 0:25:37day-to-day weather forecasting.
0:25:38 > 0:25:38Ed Vaizey there.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40That's it from Tuesday in Parliament.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43I'll be here for the rest of the week, so from me,
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Georgina Pattinson, goodbye.