:00:13. > :00:14.Hello and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament,
:00:15. > :00:21.Parliament readies itself for a day of debate
:00:22. > :00:31.We have taken care to ensure that in tabling this notion we have listened
:00:32. > :00:34.to views on all sides of this house. But there are calls to give MPs
:00:35. > :00:43.longer to decide. This is no way to treat the house,
:00:44. > :00:45.the voters, or, indeed, our Armed Forces.
:00:46. > :00:47.And questions for the Defence Secretary on the number of
:00:48. > :00:54.Have we got our Lawrence of Arabia? Someone who can get all of these
:00:55. > :00:58.troops together and bring them all to fight under one flag, if there is
:00:59. > :00:59.such a thing as fighting under one flag?
:01:00. > :01:02.This week, the decision on whether to carry out air strikes in Syria
:01:03. > :01:05.against the terror group Islamic State will dominate the Commons.
:01:06. > :01:07.MPs rejected air strikes against Syrian government targets
:01:08. > :01:09.in 2013, but have since backed strikes against IS in Iraq.
:01:10. > :01:15.Ministers say it is illogical to carry out strikes in Iraq but not
:01:16. > :01:18.Syria as IS does not recognise the border between the countries.
:01:19. > :01:21.But for the time being, attention was focused on the day-long
:01:22. > :01:27.The Leader of the House, Chris Grayling, announced the debate will
:01:28. > :01:31.knock out Prime Minister's Questions and other parliamentary business.
:01:32. > :01:37.Many were not happy about the arrangements.
:01:38. > :01:44.The truth is that the government never really intended to proceed
:01:45. > :01:48.tomorrow with the business that was announced last Thursday. They always
:01:49. > :01:51.intended to make an emergency business statement today, to abandon
:01:52. > :01:53.the opposition day tomorrow and told the vote tomorrow.
:01:54. > :01:55.Chris Bryant said the prime minister should have announced
:01:56. > :01:59.And there was another problem - the motion had only just been
:02:00. > :02:08.So, on one of the most important issues we face, the security of our
:02:09. > :02:13.country, the safety of the people of Syria and of our own Armed Forces,
:02:14. > :02:19.we are expected to frame our opinion on a motion we haven't even seen
:02:20. > :02:23.yet. We asked Mr Speaker for a two-day debate, I did so two weeks
:02:24. > :02:26.ago, and the Leader of the Opposition repeated that call
:02:27. > :02:29.yesterday. I recognise the government has tabled motions to
:02:30. > :02:35.allow a longer day than usual tomorrow, but what really is the
:02:36. > :02:41.hurry? All in all, surely to heavens, this is no way to treat the
:02:42. > :02:46.house, our voters, or, indeed, our Armed Forces. Far from inspiring
:02:47. > :02:51.confidence in the government's judgment, shenanigans of this nature
:02:52. > :02:55.seriously undermine it. The Cabinet has considered and discuss this
:02:56. > :02:59.matter this morning and reached a decision and therefore brought this
:03:00. > :03:03.matter to the house as quickly as possible after the conclusion of
:03:04. > :03:07.that Cabinet decision. Tomorrow's debate is the equivalent of two
:03:08. > :03:15.normal days debate in regard to its length. In total this matter will
:03:16. > :03:19.have been discussed in the house for 20 hours since last Monday. We have
:03:20. > :03:23.taken care to ensure that in tabling this motion we have listened to
:03:24. > :03:27.views from all sides of this ounce -- house and I make no apology for
:03:28. > :03:32.taking time to consider those views and come up with a motion which I
:03:33. > :03:37.believe reflects the views of the majority of this house and I believe
:03:38. > :03:40.and hope that will command the support of this house tomorrow and I
:03:41. > :03:44.am absolutely confident we are not only doing the right thing
:03:45. > :03:48.procedurally, but also if we vote that way tomorrow we will be doing
:03:49. > :03:53.the right thing for this country. It is not only on these grounds that
:03:54. > :03:56.people are arguing about this. Conservative members of public have
:03:57. > :04:02.very serious questions that they want to put tomorrow and, depending
:04:03. > :04:05.on the answers, they will not necessarily vote for this motion
:04:06. > :04:10.tomorrow so, could we not extend the debate even further? It is so
:04:11. > :04:16.difficult, I would imagine, for people outside, on such a crucial
:04:17. > :04:21.issue, however we vote, that we confine it to one day, even though
:04:22. > :04:26.it is extended time. Why is it impossible for the House of Commons
:04:27. > :04:30.not to at least give two full days? It would be a travesty of people are
:04:31. > :04:35.limited to very short speeches of three or four minutes. Can I make an
:04:36. > :04:38.appeal to the leader and right across the house that the front
:04:39. > :04:44.bench speeches not take up an inordinately long time, as sometimes
:04:45. > :04:49.they do. The leader of the house needs to think again about this
:04:50. > :04:53.issue. Bringing issues to debate on War and peace to the house is a
:04:54. > :04:57.reasonably recent innovation. There was a situation where the Leader of
:04:58. > :05:01.the Opposition and the leader of the second largest opposition party, and
:05:02. > :05:05.I suspect other parties, have asked for a two-day debate. It is not just
:05:06. > :05:09.the amount of time for the debate but the time for consideration
:05:10. > :05:12.properly motions. As the leader of the house does not concede this he
:05:13. > :05:18.is threatening a dangerous precedent and the very important one. Is it
:05:19. > :05:19.because the Prime Minister is more interested in dividing the Labour
:05:20. > :05:21.Party and uniting the country? In response to points of order,
:05:22. > :05:24.the Speaker, John Bercow, said it was up to
:05:25. > :05:27.the government to propose how much time was needed for debates, and not
:05:28. > :05:30.the Speaker - but he'd be willing to And the issue dominated thinking
:05:31. > :05:33.in Westminster. Many MPs have raised the issue
:05:34. > :05:36.of ground troops, which are seen as essential to
:05:37. > :05:40.defeat IS, as well as air strikes. David Cameron has highlighted
:05:41. > :05:44.70,000 local troops who might But MPs are increasingly
:05:45. > :05:49.wondering about that figure. And when the Defence Secretary
:05:50. > :06:02.and his team came before MPs, Last week the Prime Minister said
:06:03. > :06:07.there were 70,000 Syrian fighters, including the Free Syrian Army with
:06:08. > :06:15.whom we have coordinated attacks against Iceland day Esch. What is
:06:16. > :06:18.the make up of the different groups? You have different cultures and
:06:19. > :06:22.different religious factions and different levels of training and
:06:23. > :06:26.qualities of equipment and they have different goals. The Free Syrian
:06:27. > :06:32.Army want to get rid of Assad and other groups within there are small
:06:33. > :06:38.groups that only want to defend their territories that they
:06:39. > :06:41.presently defend. Have we got our Lawrence of Arabia? Someone who can
:06:42. > :06:43.come and get all of these groups together and bring them together as
:06:44. > :06:47.one and fight under one flag? The Defence Secretary said
:06:48. > :06:57.the estimate came from These are the 70,000 who we estimate
:06:58. > :07:02.and would define as being able to do two things. First is to be able to
:07:03. > :07:07.play a part in supporting a different type of government in
:07:08. > :07:10.Syria, and, indeed, being part of it and secondly being able in the
:07:11. > :07:13.fullness of time to take the fight to Isil. That is what we mean by
:07:14. > :07:15.moderate opposition forces in Syria. They were not, he said,
:07:16. > :07:26.a New Model Army. There are groups throughout Syria
:07:27. > :07:29.that add to give you the overall figure of 70,000, so they are not
:07:30. > :07:34.all in one place and they are fighting on a whole range of
:07:35. > :07:37.different fronts but they are fighting President Assad and one of
:07:38. > :07:42.the reasons for us getting more involved in tackling Isil in Syria
:07:43. > :07:49.is to relieve the pressure on them so they are not being squeezed by
:07:50. > :07:53.both sides, by both myself and my Assad. Is there a single commander
:07:54. > :08:00.who can weld all of this together, as Lawrence of Arabia tried to do
:08:01. > :08:04.100 years ago? That I am not sure. Let me ask General messenger to give
:08:05. > :08:08.me a little bit more on the breakdown of the 70000 and its
:08:09. > :08:15.future deployment. I think we would be wrong to characterise them as a
:08:16. > :08:21.ragtag army. I mean, if we look at what they have managed to defend
:08:22. > :08:28.against over years, if you look at what they have managed to achieve in
:08:29. > :08:33.terms of territory preservation, both in the North and the South, it
:08:34. > :08:39.is considerable and they have been up against enormous pressure,
:08:40. > :08:44.techniques such as barrel bombing and other indiscriminate forms of
:08:45. > :08:47.violence, which have brought violence to their populations as
:08:48. > :08:53.well as their combatants. I do not think we should dismiss them, but
:08:54. > :08:57.will also -- but nor should we try and invent some coherence where it
:08:58. > :09:02.doesn't exist. I do not think anyone is arguing the fact about whether
:09:03. > :09:07.there might be 70,000 people ready to take up arms on a local or
:09:08. > :09:11.regional basis, the question is how moderate are they? Are they really
:09:12. > :09:18.moderate, or are they in fact Islamist? I cannot get into the
:09:19. > :09:22.detail because the level of classification of this briefing but
:09:23. > :09:30.I can say that there is a spectrum of extremism and... I am sorry, I do
:09:31. > :09:36.not accept that at all. These groups are known to exist and the Prime
:09:37. > :09:43.Minister has come forward with a figure of 70000 and he has obviously
:09:44. > :09:49.got a basis for that figure and there is nothing of a sensitive or
:09:50. > :09:54.classified nature about which of these known groups he is including
:09:55. > :09:58.in his total, and which he is not, and as the Prime Minister is asking
:09:59. > :10:03.us to make a decision based in part on this idea that there is some
:10:04. > :10:08.Democratic third force between the devil and the deep blue sea, as the
:10:09. > :10:13.government sees it, of Assad and Isil-Daesh, I think the public and,
:10:14. > :10:18.indeed parliamentarians, are entitled to know how are these
:10:19. > :10:21.70,000 made up? They cannot be possibly something sensitive about
:10:22. > :10:25.which of the forces out there which are known to exist, such as the ones
:10:26. > :10:29.that make up the Islamic front, whether they are included in the
:10:30. > :10:33.total or not. You would have too wash the joint intelligence
:10:34. > :10:37.committee for the detail. I really do not see why that has to be a
:10:38. > :10:42.secret. All we're asking is which of the known groups are included in
:10:43. > :10:46.70,000 or not, and I really think that breakdown ought to be public
:10:47. > :10:53.and no one was going to do that now, I take it. We will certainly reflect
:10:54. > :11:00.on that. These groups all subscribe to is lamb. When you say Islamist,
:11:01. > :11:06.there is a separate debate there as to how you would define that. What
:11:07. > :11:09.we can go on is the best assessment that the joint intelligence
:11:10. > :11:13.committee can make as to which of these groups would be prepared to
:11:14. > :11:16.play their part in a new and peaceful Syria. That, really, I
:11:17. > :11:18.think is the most important thing of all.
:11:19. > :11:20.You're watching Tuesday in Parliament on BBC Parliament.
:11:21. > :11:23.After consumer concerns, one MP asks for children's fancy
:11:24. > :11:32.But now, the first Treasury Questions since the Chancellor's
:11:33. > :11:34.Autumn Statement, and Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
:11:35. > :11:42.The Chancellor bowed to Labour pressure last week and made a U-turn
:11:43. > :11:53.Although tax credits will not be cut in the new year, as planned,
:11:54. > :11:57.the cuts to universal credit are going ahead in full.
:11:58. > :12:00.How much will a single parent with one child, who works part-time on
:12:01. > :12:05.the so-called national living wage, lose as a result of his planned
:12:06. > :12:11.First, let me say that I did not feel a huge amount of Labour
:12:12. > :12:14.pressure last week, but I am happy to see the honourable
:12:15. > :12:19.With universal credit, we are introducing a fundamental
:12:20. > :12:24.Anyone on tax credits, including in the case that he refers to,
:12:25. > :12:26.who is moved on to universal credit by the Department for Work
:12:27. > :12:32.and Pensions from next year, will have their cash awards protected.
:12:33. > :12:35.Let me explain to the Chancellor exactly what a single parent with
:12:36. > :12:40.one child who works part-time on the national living wage will lose.
:12:41. > :12:44.They will lose an average of ?2800 a year as a result
:12:45. > :12:51.This was not an Autumn Statement that supported families,
:12:52. > :12:55.If he reversed the tax giveaways to the wealthy
:12:56. > :13:00.that he announced in his Summer Budget, he could reverse fully these
:13:01. > :13:07.cuts to family incomes, while still achieving his fiscal mandate.
:13:08. > :13:11.Universal credit is a new benefit where it will always pay to work and
:13:12. > :13:16.it will always pay to expand the number of hours that are worked.
:13:17. > :13:18.It will get rid of a complex series of benefits.
:13:19. > :13:28.Let me make this point, since the gang of four on the other side
:13:29. > :13:31.The honourable member for Leeds East, who is a Shadow Treasury
:13:32. > :13:34.Minister, has not bothered to turn up today because he is marching
:13:35. > :13:39.on the Labour Party's headquarters on a Stop the War march.
:13:40. > :13:42.The truth is that until the Shadow Treasury team get their act together
:13:43. > :13:48.in this Chamber, their cases will not be listened to seriously.
:13:49. > :13:50.But George Osborne couldn't resist one reference to the moment
:13:51. > :13:53.when the Shadow Chancellor quoted from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book
:13:54. > :13:59.Is he therefore intending to go on and on, to the delight of the Home
:14:00. > :14:06.We promised to turn the British economy around and that is exactly
:14:07. > :14:10.I know that the honourable gentleman is out of
:14:11. > :14:13.sorts with the cultural revolution that is taking place on his Front
:14:14. > :14:16.Bench at the moment, but I just hope that in the modern Labour Party,
:14:17. > :14:41.The Labour MP wanted to know how much preparation had been going on
:14:42. > :14:47.for a Yuki exit from the European Union. Are you seriously saying that
:14:48. > :14:58.we are already committed to a referendum, the negation
:14:59. > :15:01.renegotiations are on the way... This is a cause of action we are now
:15:02. > :15:12.going on. That would be a recipe for disaster. It is a perfectly
:15:13. > :15:16.reasonable remark. The objections of the Government are to seek an
:15:17. > :15:20.improvement in our relationship with the European Union so we can remain
:15:21. > :15:25.in it. And that is what our policy-making is directed towards.
:15:26. > :15:35.It is the policy of the Government changes,... You mac I am not
:15:36. > :15:41.criticising the civil servants. To direct the eventuality of an
:15:42. > :15:43.outcome. We must prepare for the eventuality of another Coalition
:15:44. > :15:48.Government, or a minority Labour Government or a Conservative
:15:49. > :15:51.Government. If the outcome of the referendum has a far greater impact
:15:52. > :15:57.on the markets than the outcome of the general election would. It is
:15:58. > :16:04.accepted by all sides in this discussion that should the UK vote
:16:05. > :16:08.to leave the EU, that would not happen overnight. It would happen
:16:09. > :16:16.over a period of months, at the minimum, and over that period, the
:16:17. > :16:20.British civil service and British citizens would do as we always do.
:16:21. > :16:27.You mac I hope we are not going to find that out. You mac I urge you to
:16:28. > :16:33.approach this differently. You mac it is reckless, giving the gravity
:16:34. > :16:38.of the situation. We had a panel as part of our enquiry, the range of
:16:39. > :16:41.people from businesses. People complained about not knowing about
:16:42. > :16:46.benefits. They want to make informed decisions. Do you not think it is in
:16:47. > :16:52.the public interest to have some understanding of the choice they
:16:53. > :16:56.have faced? Was advocating withdrawal in the referendum will
:16:57. > :17:03.have to explain... Are you advocating withdrawal? You are the
:17:04. > :17:09.Chancellor, I wouldn't mind the Prime Minister advocating. Why
:17:10. > :17:15.should Nigel Farage have any say in the Outlook? When it comes to
:17:16. > :17:20.Europe, we are focused on the renegotiation. Those who will
:17:21. > :17:25.advocate a withdrawal from the European Union will have to set out
:17:26. > :17:29.what the alternative is. So when is the referendum on EU membership
:17:30. > :17:34.likely to be held? The Minister for Europe said there were certain times
:17:35. > :17:38.in the year when it would be ill-advised to hold major electoral
:17:39. > :17:43.events. It also seemed unlikely the Government would hold a referendum
:17:44. > :17:49.while also holding the presidency in the second half of 2017. Do you have
:17:50. > :17:54.a preferred date for the referendum? I know the date by which it has got
:17:55. > :18:01.to be held. The discussion we have had in Parliament means it cannot be
:18:02. > :18:08.held during the Scottish and Welsh Assembly election days. It would be
:18:09. > :18:14.a brave person who held a referendum on Christmas Day. We are going to
:18:15. > :18:20.try and negotiate this as soon as we can, provided we get the agreement.
:18:21. > :18:30.We have got to mac users to do that. We will have that in the latter half
:18:31. > :18:33.of 2017. Basically, we have given ourselves and the Department has
:18:34. > :18:40.given us two years in which to get the best possible deal for Britain.
:18:41. > :18:45.So if we get a good deal that we can recommend to the British people,
:18:46. > :18:46.there is no point we can, is there? But it depends on getting a good
:18:47. > :18:48.deal. Now, questions in the House of Lords
:18:49. > :18:51.marked world AIDS day. Peers have challenged the Government
:18:52. > :18:54.over the overseas support it gives AIDS is the biggest killer
:18:55. > :18:57.of women of reproductive age. AIDS is the second-biggest killer
:18:58. > :19:01.of adolescents. In 2014, 1.2 million people died
:19:02. > :19:08.of an HIV/AIDS-related illness. There are 36.9 million people living
:19:09. > :19:13.with HIV, and most people living with HIV are
:19:14. > :19:17.in middle-income countries. Therefore it is vital that
:19:18. > :19:20.when addressing the possible withdrawal of programmes and funding
:19:21. > :19:27.from middle-income countries, the Government look at indicators other
:19:28. > :19:35.than the blunt instrument of GNI. Approximately 50% of Global Fund
:19:36. > :19:38.resources are directed to We use our seat
:19:39. > :19:44.on its board to encourage it to focus on key populations,
:19:45. > :19:48.as the noble Lord is aware. As middle-income countries graduate
:19:49. > :19:53.from aid, we work with the Global Fund, UNAIDS, national governments
:19:54. > :19:57.and civil society to encourage 35 out of 121 low-income
:19:58. > :20:06.and middle-income countries have increased their spend on AIDS
:20:07. > :20:10.by more than 100%, with all domestic spending on AIDS
:20:11. > :20:17.amounting to some 60% of the total. Does the Minister agree that this
:20:18. > :20:20.confirms the long-standing role of communities
:20:21. > :20:23.in addressing the epidemic in the years ahead, and the critical
:20:24. > :20:27.importance of investing in a strong community health presence to broaden
:20:28. > :20:31.the reach of their services? Can she assure us that these vital
:20:32. > :20:36.services will not be threatened by DfID's planned withdrawal
:20:37. > :20:40.of budget support? There is no withdrawal
:20:41. > :20:43.of budget support. However, we do need to ensure that
:20:44. > :20:46.the support we are giving is to those people who are in most need
:20:47. > :20:51.and are unable to self-finance. The low-income,
:20:52. > :20:54.high-burden countries need our support the most but we continue
:20:55. > :20:59.to work in middle-income countries. So there is no withdrawal -
:21:00. > :21:02.just smarter, Lord Fowler was Health Secretary
:21:03. > :21:08.in 1986 and led the first official drive to educate British people
:21:09. > :21:13.about the dangers of AIDS. There are 36 million people
:21:14. > :21:16.around the world living with HIV, yet WHO estimates that half of them
:21:17. > :21:23.are untested and undiagnosed. Is not the reason why people do not
:21:24. > :21:26.come forward the prejudice against them and
:21:27. > :21:30.the criminal law against gay people Given that so many
:21:31. > :21:35.of these countries are inside the Commonwealth, should not the
:21:36. > :21:38.British Government take the lead in Of course stigma
:21:39. > :21:45.and discrimination drive key At the recent CHOGM talks in Malta,
:21:46. > :21:58.we very much had that conversation. I reassure my noble friend that we
:21:59. > :22:04.spend ?6 million a year on research programmes, including understanding
:22:05. > :22:10.how social drivers increase HIV infection, and on supporting people
:22:11. > :22:15.in those countries. The minister was pressed to go
:22:16. > :22:17.further by the Conservative, Is not the criminalisation of
:22:18. > :22:22.homosexuality simply incompatible Is the noble minister aware that
:22:23. > :22:44.there are now many thousands of AIDS My Lords, that is one of the key
:22:45. > :22:47.messages which we must reinforce, whether that is that the
:22:48. > :22:53.Commonwealth level or outside of the Commonwealth. Is the noble lady
:22:54. > :22:57.where that there are now many thousands of AIDS orphans,
:22:58. > :23:01.particularly in Africa? They frequently find other family members
:23:02. > :23:05.take their parental possessions and they are destitute. Does the British
:23:06. > :23:11.Government has any programmes in Africa to support such children? The
:23:12. > :23:13.minister said the UK worked closely with organisations to ensure orphans
:23:14. > :23:16.received health care and education. Children's fancy dress costumes
:23:17. > :23:19.should be as flame-resistant as nightwear, the Conservative MP Anne
:23:20. > :23:22.Main has told the House of Commons. Introducing a bill under
:23:23. > :23:23.the ten-minute rule, she said dressing up had changed
:23:24. > :23:27.a great deal in recent years and it When I was a child,
:23:28. > :23:32.dressing up meant raiding a box containing mum's old clothes, hats
:23:33. > :23:34.and shoes, and going to parties However, what my era -
:23:35. > :23:39.the late 1950s and early 1960s - suffered from was dangerous,
:23:40. > :23:42.flammable nightwear. Every year up until 1964,
:23:43. > :23:45.many small children were admitted to hospital with horrific burns,
:23:46. > :23:49.and indeed many died. In 1964,
:23:50. > :23:51.the Daily Mail led a campaign for safer nightwear, and later that
:23:52. > :23:56.year this House decided to act. The nightwear standard became
:23:57. > :24:01.law and was updated in 1985. Toys are tested against the rate
:24:02. > :24:17.of spread of the flame. You mac that is based child's
:24:18. > :24:23.ability to drop run away from a toy. These are all sort toys that cannot
:24:24. > :24:28.be dropped or walked away from. The test should also be used for
:24:29. > :24:31.children's nightwear. In the United States, a child's dress up garment
:24:32. > :24:38.has a much higher level of protection. It might not catch fire
:24:39. > :24:39.for up to three seconds of exposure to a flame.
:24:40. > :24:41.Media star Claudia Winkleman knows only too well from personal
:24:42. > :24:44.experience the horror of a child's costume catching alight.
:24:45. > :24:45.I pay tribute to her high-profile awareness campaign,
:24:46. > :24:48.which has led to many of our high street stores voluntarily
:24:49. > :24:50.making their play clothes to the higher nightwear standard.
:24:51. > :24:53.However, as the standard is only voluntary, there will still be
:24:54. > :24:58.It is hard to sort out the good from the bad, as price is not
:24:59. > :25:01.Good Housekeeping magazine recently tested some widely available
:25:02. > :25:04.Halloween costumes, all of which met the current EU standards.
:25:05. > :25:06.Interestingly, the cheapest in its flammability
:25:07. > :25:12.Anne Main argued that it would take too long to lobby for an EU-wide
:25:13. > :25:14.tightening up of legislation, but she said Britain could act
:25:15. > :25:20.Some types of clothing, such as nightwear, are subject to
:25:21. > :25:26.That is domestic rather than EU legislation, and it provides a
:25:27. > :25:32.precedent for the UK legislating in this way without breaching EU law.
:25:33. > :25:35.It reflects the general principle that EU legislation sets minimum
:25:36. > :25:39.European-wide standards, which do not prevent member states
:25:40. > :25:43.from putting in place national legislation that goes beyond them.
:25:44. > :25:46.Sometimes that is called gold-plating.
:25:47. > :25:48.While unopposed, unless these plans are adopted by the Government, they
:25:49. > :25:58.I'll be here for the rest of the week, but for now, from me,