0:00:14 > 0:00:17Hello and welcome to Tuesday in parliament, our look at the best
0:00:17 > 0:00:20of the day in the Commons and the Lords.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24On this programme, President Putin announces a withdrawal of Russian
0:00:24 > 0:00:26forces from Syria.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29The news gets a cautious welcome from MPs.
0:00:29 > 0:00:36It needs to be carried through, in particular,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38if it is going to support the ceasefire and de-escalate
0:00:38 > 0:00:39tensions.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42This is not a recipe for enhancing stability and predictability
0:00:42 > 0:00:43on the international scene.
0:00:43 > 0:00:44Infringement of liberty?
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Or sensible surveillance?
0:00:46 > 0:00:48MPs debate the controversial Investigatory Powers Bill.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51An internet connection record is a record of what internet
0:00:51 > 0:00:54services a device or a person has connected to, not every web page
0:00:54 > 0:00:59they have visited.
0:00:59 > 0:01:06MPs hear powerful evidence about how meningitis can strike a child.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10From my son showing his first symptom of being sick at 6.30am
0:01:10 > 0:01:13on the morning, this was 4.30pm on the teatime he lost
0:01:13 > 0:01:21consciousness that quick.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23But first, the Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, has said Russia
0:01:23 > 0:01:27should be judged by actions not words in the wake of the surprise
0:01:27 > 0:01:29announcement by President Putin of a withdraw of Russian
0:01:29 > 0:01:30forces from Syria.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Russian military pictures showed a group of Russian fighter aircraft
0:01:32 > 0:01:35taking off from an air base in Syria and apparently returning home.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40The Russian military campaign in Syria had begun back in September
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and was aimed at bolstering the position of the Syrian
0:01:43 > 0:01:45President, Bashar al-Assad.
0:01:45 > 0:01:50Following President Putin's announcement on Monday evening,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52Russia's Defence Ministry said some air strikes will continue
0:01:52 > 0:01:55in the country.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57In the Commons, the Foreign Secretary said President Putin's
0:01:57 > 0:02:01motives were unknowable.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04We do not yet have any independent evidence to verify Russia's claims
0:02:04 > 0:02:06that military withdrawals have already begun.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11We are monitoring developments closely.
0:02:11 > 0:02:17It will be important to judge Russia by its actions.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20It is worth remembering that Russia announced withdrawal of forces
0:02:20 > 0:02:22in Ukraine which later turned out merely to be routine
0:02:22 > 0:02:25rotation of forces.
0:02:25 > 0:02:31Now is the time for all parties to focus on political negotiations
0:02:31 > 0:02:35which resumed yesterday in Geneva.
0:02:35 > 0:02:40Because only a political transition away from Assad's rule,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44to a Government representative of all Syrians, will deliver
0:02:44 > 0:02:48the peace Syrians so desperately need and so ardently desire.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52Yesterday's announcement of the withdrawal of Russian forces
0:02:52 > 0:02:55will be cautiously welcomed by all of us but I agree
0:02:55 > 0:02:58with the Foreign Secretary that it needs to be carried through,
0:02:58 > 0:03:01in particular, if it is going to support the ceasefire
0:03:01 > 0:03:03and de-escalate tensions.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06Does he agree that a full withdrawal would improve the confidence
0:03:06 > 0:03:08of opposition forces in the ceasefire and help to ensure
0:03:08 > 0:03:13their full participation in the peace process?
0:03:13 > 0:03:17The intervention by Russia in Syria was a surprise to the West and this
0:03:17 > 0:03:23withdrawal, if it's genuine, is also a surprise.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27Russia's interventions have been unhelpful, but influential.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31Can my right honourable friend advise me what steps we can
0:03:31 > 0:03:34and we are taking with our allies to stop Russia setting
0:03:34 > 0:03:36the agenda in Syria?
0:03:36 > 0:03:39Unfortunately, Russia is a state in which all power is concentrated
0:03:39 > 0:03:40in the hands of one man.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42There is not even a politbureau anymore.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46A single man.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51Decisions are made, apparently, arbitrarily, without any advance
0:03:51 > 0:03:56signalling and as we are now seeing can be unmade just as quickly.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58This is not a recipe for enhancing stability and predictability
0:03:58 > 0:04:02on the international scene.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06It makes the world a more dangerous place, not a less dangerous place.
0:04:06 > 0:04:15In seeking further clarity on this deeply cynical announcement,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19can he, or his US allies, clarify if the Russian Government
0:04:19 > 0:04:23have set out any conditions linked to their withdrawal
0:04:23 > 0:04:25that would negatively impact on the political negotiations?
0:04:25 > 0:04:28And given the tens of thousands of incredibly vulnerable Syrians
0:04:28 > 0:04:31we know exist up and down the country is it not time to look
0:04:31 > 0:04:34again at a NATO-backed no bombing zone particularly along the border
0:04:34 > 0:04:35with Turkey to protect civilians?
0:04:35 > 0:04:39The actual threat to the peace process comes from across the border
0:04:39 > 0:04:44in Turkey which is no longer led by a constructive and rationale
0:04:44 > 0:04:48partner in the process and the actions of President Erdogan
0:04:48 > 0:04:55should be giving all of us the gravest concern as he presides
0:04:55 > 0:05:00over a disintegrating democracy and a war on part of his own people.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03It is almost five years to the day since the uprising against Assad.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05There have been hundreds of thousands of people killed,
0:05:05 > 0:05:0911 million displaced, 80% of Syria's children have been
0:05:09 > 0:05:13damaged by the civil conflict.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15The House debated these issues two weeks ago,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18there was a huge amount of scepticism across the chamber
0:05:18 > 0:05:20about the ceasefire.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23The ceasefire, although there have been significant breaches,
0:05:23 > 0:05:25has resulted in a huge diminution of violence.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28It is the only ceasefire we have got.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Following on from the question from the chairman of
0:05:31 > 0:05:38the Select Committee, is it not the most credible
0:05:38 > 0:05:39explanation for the Russian announcement, is it's
0:05:39 > 0:05:42going to pressurise the Assad regime into taking a more flexible attitude
0:05:42 > 0:05:44in the peace talks?
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Given Russia's past history over the last 30 years of changing horses
0:05:47 > 0:05:50at the last moment in order to seek a different outcome would he now be
0:05:50 > 0:05:52advising President Assad to double his bodyguard?
0:05:52 > 0:05:55Well, the relationship between President Assad
0:05:55 > 0:06:05and President Putin is a subject of great speculation among
0:06:11 > 0:06:14colleagues on the ISSG circuit I can tell my honourable friend but I am
0:06:14 > 0:06:17clear that the situation is the same as it has always been and I have
0:06:18 > 0:06:19said it in this House before.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22President Putin could have ended all this years ago by a single phone
0:06:22 > 0:06:24call to President Assad offering him some fraternal advice
0:06:24 > 0:06:28about his future health and well-being.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30Philip Hammond.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33The Russian President's announcement of a military withdrawal was also
0:06:33 > 0:06:43looked at in the House of Lords.
0:06:43 > 0:06:53My Lords, isn't it necessary to retain a sense of realism
0:06:54 > 0:06:56about these matters, not least because Mr Putin has
0:06:56 > 0:06:58achieved all of his strategic objectives?
0:06:58 > 0:07:00He managed to buttress the Assad regime, at least for the moment,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03as has already been pointed out, he has retained the military base
0:07:03 > 0:07:06at Latakia and the Port of Tasis and there can be no settlement
0:07:06 > 0:07:09of the Syrian question without the endorsement of Russia.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11It may not be game set and match to Mr Putin,
0:07:11 > 0:07:16but it's most certainly game and set.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20My Lords, I can only agree with a great deal of what the noble
0:07:20 > 0:07:26Lord has said.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29But one cannot at the same time help observing that Russia's stated aims
0:07:29 > 0:07:39and its actions in Syria have been at odds with one another and it
0:07:42 > 0:07:45in a stronger position or a weaker position.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47The main opposition parties have refused to give their backing
0:07:47 > 0:07:49to new surveillance powers for the security services,
0:07:49 > 0:07:56unless the Government makes some substantial changes.
0:07:56 > 0:08:04Labour said the investigatory powers bill had significant weaknesses,
0:08:04 > 0:08:08while the SNP condemned one measure as fantastically intrusive.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10But the Home Secretary, Theresa May, called the Bill world leading
0:08:10 > 0:08:13legislation, which, for the first time, ensured that judges approved
0:08:13 > 0:08:17interception warrants signed by ministers.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19And Mrs May said that thanks to the numerous reports
0:08:19 > 0:08:23and inquiries, the original Bill had been much improved.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Today terrorists and criminals are operating online with a reach
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and scale that never existed before.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31They're exploiting the technological benefits of the modern age
0:08:31 > 0:08:34for their own twisted ends and they will continue to do
0:08:34 > 0:08:37so as long as it gives them a perceived advantage.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40We must ensure that those charged with keeping us safe are able
0:08:40 > 0:08:47to keep pace.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49She may have seen a letter in today's Guardian from a large
0:08:49 > 0:08:52number of lawyers which suggested that this legislation was intended
0:08:52 > 0:08:56to give generalised access to electronic communications content.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Does she agree with me that that is the very thing which this
0:08:59 > 0:09:04bill does not actually do at all?
0:09:04 > 0:09:06And that the double lock mechanism is there as an assurance
0:09:06 > 0:09:07that it doesn't happen?
0:09:07 > 0:09:09My right honourable friend is absolutely right.
0:09:09 > 0:09:16The point about this bill is that it will only be possible to access,
0:09:16 > 0:09:21to intercept communications under this dual authority,
0:09:21 > 0:09:24this double lock put into place and it is not the case
0:09:24 > 0:09:26that the authorities are looking for a generalised access
0:09:26 > 0:09:27to the contents of communications.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Theresa May turned to one of the more controversial measures.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34The only new power in the bill is the ability to require
0:09:34 > 0:09:37communication service providers to retain internet connection
0:09:37 > 0:09:40records, when served with a notice issued by the Secretary of State
0:09:40 > 0:09:44and after consultation with the provider in question.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48And I want to be quite clear and reiterate what I said earlier,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51that internet connection records do not provide access to a person's
0:09:51 > 0:09:53full web browsing history.
0:09:53 > 0:09:59An internet connection record is a record of what internet
0:09:59 > 0:10:02services a device or a person has connected to, not every web page
0:10:02 > 0:10:03they have visited.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08The time has come for this House to lay politics aside and find that
0:10:08 > 0:10:14point of balance between privacy and security in the digital age that
0:10:14 > 0:10:18can command broad public support.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21We on these benches have worked hard to uncover the truth about some
0:10:21 > 0:10:23of the dark chapters in our country's past,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26precisely so that we can learn from them and make this country
0:10:26 > 0:10:28fairer for those coming after us.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30The Scottish National Party cannot give this bill our full support.
0:10:30 > 0:10:36We intend to join forces with others in this House to have this bill
0:10:36 > 0:10:38as extensively amended as possible.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41Today we shall be abstaining but if the bill is not amended
0:10:41 > 0:10:44to our satisfaction, we reserve the right to vote
0:10:44 > 0:10:47against it at a later stage.
0:10:47 > 0:10:54The service providers will be required to keep records of every
0:10:54 > 0:10:56communication that takes place on their networks and potentially
0:10:56 > 0:11:01every click and swipe where there is an exchange of data
0:11:01 > 0:11:05between your device and a remote server.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09It's the equivalent of in the days of steaming open letters of someone
0:11:09 > 0:11:19somewhere keeping every front cover of every envelope across the whole
0:11:22 > 0:11:25country in some warehouse somewhere stored for a 12 full months.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27It didn't happen then and it shouldn't happen now.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29The implication of this, Mr Speaker, is very big indeed.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32It is that the Government believes as a matter of principle that every
0:11:32 > 0:11:35innocent act of communication online must leave a trace for future
0:11:35 > 0:11:37possible interrogation by the state.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40This bill or something like it is absolutely necessary.
0:11:40 > 0:11:44It replaces 66-plus other pieces of statutory mechanism so we have
0:11:44 > 0:11:48got to have in the interests of transparency something to put
0:11:48 > 0:11:57in its place.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00But it grants sweeping powers, in my view, so far, insufficient
0:12:00 > 0:12:01safeguards, and not enough consideration for privacy.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04There is a fundamental challenge at the heart of this legislation
0:12:04 > 0:12:07between the idea that it is possible to separate out somebody's contact
0:12:07 > 0:12:08online from their content.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11It's a definition that many of the internet companies have
0:12:11 > 0:12:14raised and said there is a concern with and it's a definition that
0:12:14 > 0:12:18as yet this legislation has not grappled with.
0:12:18 > 0:12:25Let's have no illusions, this is retaining information
0:12:25 > 0:12:27for that period of time of those, the overwhelming majority needless
0:12:27 > 0:12:30to say, who are in no way under suspicion of any criminal
0:12:30 > 0:12:32activity at all.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34Is that desirable?
0:12:34 > 0:12:39Does anyone really believe that will help the fight against terrorism?
0:12:39 > 0:12:41The debate on the Investigatory Powers Bill.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43You're watching our round-up of the day in the Commons
0:12:44 > 0:12:44and the Lords.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Still to come:
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Why do so many people get sent to jail in the United Kingdom?
0:12:55 > 0:13:00The parents of children affected by meningitis B have told MPs
0:13:00 > 0:13:03a vaccine for the disease should be extended to all UK children up
0:13:03 > 0:13:06to the age of 11.
0:13:06 > 0:13:11Babies born after July 2015 are routinely given the vaccine.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14The Government's Advisory Committee says offering it to more children
0:13:14 > 0:13:19would not be cost-effective for the NHS.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22More than 823,000 people have signed a petition calling
0:13:22 > 0:13:25for the immunisation programme to be widened.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29It was set up by a father after one of his daughters was refused
0:13:29 > 0:13:32the vaccine on the grounds of age.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36What price do you put on a child's life, at the end of the day?
0:13:36 > 0:13:38You know, these are children's lives that we're talking about.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41We are a modern country, not a Third World country.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43We have got a vaccine out there.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45We should be using it.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49I don't see how you can afford not to vaccinate people.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52And survivors, you know, have life-changing disabilities
0:13:52 > 0:13:57that, if you are caring for those children over the course
0:13:57 > 0:14:00of a lifetime, the amputations, brain damage...
0:14:00 > 0:14:03The cost to the Government and to the taxpayer runs
0:14:03 > 0:14:09into millions of pounds for those children.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13They average around 3 million in a lifetime for each child.
0:14:13 > 0:14:19And, I think, a lot of times, they weigh it up against the deaths
0:14:19 > 0:14:24of meningitis and they say it is such a small number,
0:14:24 > 0:14:25but that is survivors.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27Can I just ask how this is monitored?
0:14:27 > 0:14:30There is only 30 deaths, they are tragic, but there
0:14:30 > 0:14:31is 470 survivors.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34That is worse because their lives are completely changed and,
0:14:34 > 0:14:39as a society, we have to support them for the rest of their life.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41That has got to be worse, whereas, if you spend ?75,
0:14:41 > 0:14:48all that anguish, the heartache, that is all gone, and the Government
0:14:48 > 0:14:51will also save millions at the end of the day.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54And he stressed the need for faster diagnosis.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58If you can get on it quickly then the child gets less damage,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01because that is really what it comes down to.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04If it is not going to kill instantly, it is going to maim.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05It is going to damage.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07You never walk away with nothing.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10You're never going to walk away with a scar left by it,
0:15:10 > 0:15:15so you could be talking fingers, toes, and if it is left for a long
0:15:15 > 0:15:17time, legs, arms...
0:15:17 > 0:15:21It is literally time, is what you are losing.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24It really equates to what you lose in your life later on,
0:15:24 > 0:15:25if you keep your life.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26So it really is...
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Speed is everything.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30Mr Burdett also criticised what he said was a "rotating door"
0:15:30 > 0:15:34mentality in the NHS which had seen their daughter,
0:15:34 > 0:15:36Faye, sent home.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38A general antibiotic, it would have slowed it.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40It would have given her a chance.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42But she did not even give her anything.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46That is where it falls apart.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Like you say, even if we had gone back at 1am, and she would have
0:15:49 > 0:15:52already had a dose of antibiotics, it would have given her another
0:15:52 > 0:15:54small chance, but it was missed.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57That opportunity was missed.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59And, I mean, for us, and certainly for me,
0:15:59 > 0:16:01you can never forget that.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Cos them seven hours, we basically sat with her
0:16:03 > 0:16:05while she was getting worse.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08And, as far as we were concerned, three doctors had looked
0:16:08 > 0:16:10at her and we'd been sent home.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12A former rugby star was among the witnesses - Matt
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Dawson's son survived.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19Sammy went to Chelsea and Westminster and,
0:16:19 > 0:16:25because he had a strain of W135, which is a very
0:16:25 > 0:16:30rare strain, indeed...
0:16:30 > 0:16:33But it was obvious it was meningitis, but they couldn't
0:16:33 > 0:16:36diagnose it as meningitis, but they dealt with it
0:16:36 > 0:16:40there and then as if it was, so, I mean, along those lines,
0:16:40 > 0:16:46and it could well have been the difference.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48We were so lucky with Mason.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51I mean, obviously, he lost his life, but from the second we walked
0:16:51 > 0:16:53through the GP's door, she was brilliant.
0:16:53 > 0:16:54"I recognise it as meningitis."
0:16:54 > 0:16:57She gave him the antibiotics, but, sadly, from showing his first
0:16:57 > 0:17:02symptom of being sick at 6:30am, this was 4:30pm at tea-time,
0:17:02 > 0:17:03he lost consciousness.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05That was how quick...
0:17:05 > 0:17:09And I just wanted to highlight the fact that, yeah,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13the rash is very important, and obviously promote that, but,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15my son, from the second became ill until he passed away,
0:17:15 > 0:17:19he never had one spot.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Greater awareness of the disease, the witnesses agreed, was crucial.
0:17:22 > 0:17:27From a parent's perspective, very much, I will put my hand up
0:17:27 > 0:17:32as ignorant, I remember holding Sammy's hand
0:17:32 > 0:17:35when he was going through all the things that have been discussed
0:17:35 > 0:17:38already, and it being freezing cold.
0:17:38 > 0:17:45Really, really cold, and yet, I'm seeing him sweat.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47I just remember it, thinking, "That's really odd."
0:17:47 > 0:17:50Whereas, everywhere I read, now, there are the symptoms,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52because now I am reading it, there are the symptoms
0:17:52 > 0:17:54and that is one of them.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58You know, that would have been four hours' difference, possibly.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01We diagnosed the symptoms to every health professional
0:18:01 > 0:18:05without realising what we were diagnosing.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07You, as parents, were not aware what to look out for?
0:18:07 > 0:18:09No.
0:18:09 > 0:18:10No.
0:18:10 > 0:18:17We were told that it was meningitis, but she has had a vaccination
0:18:17 > 0:18:19but she had had a vaccination for that.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21They said, no, we think it is B.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23We did not know there was a B.
0:18:23 > 0:18:24The debate over meningitis.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26The Government has been told by peers it can't tackle
0:18:26 > 0:18:28re-offending by prisoners while jails remain overcrowded.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Figures released last week show that the UK has the largest prison
0:18:31 > 0:18:34population in the European Union.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37Asking a question in the Lords about prison reform,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40the Lib Dem Lord Beith, former chair of the Commons Justice Committee,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43said three recent reports had shown how difficult
0:18:43 > 0:18:50it was for rehabilitation targets to be reached in the light of cuts
0:18:50 > 0:18:56in numbers of prison staff.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58And isn't it time that ministers began to look, alongside
0:18:58 > 0:19:00the rehabilitation policy, at why we imprison a larger
0:19:00 > 0:19:02proportion of our population than any other western European
0:19:02 > 0:19:05country, thus committing huge amounts of taxpayers' money
0:19:05 > 0:19:11to a system which does not reduce reoffending enough?
0:19:11 > 0:19:13The Government is, of course, always anxious to find out why
0:19:13 > 0:19:17we are imprisoning so many people.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19The imprisoning, of course, done by judges, not by Government.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23However, we believe that the way to reduce the prison population
0:19:23 > 0:19:28is to tackle the question of reoffending.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33Is it not true that there are simply insufficient staff in our prisons
0:19:33 > 0:19:37to escort prisoners, for example, to needed mental health
0:19:37 > 0:19:40appointments, or for the classes to which they are supposed to be
0:19:40 > 0:19:44booked, or, indeed, to the exercise and other facilities that
0:19:44 > 0:19:50would enable them to go along the way to rehabilitation?
0:19:50 > 0:19:52How will that rehabilitation take place?
0:19:52 > 0:19:57In the last year, we have recruited 2,250 new prison officers,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00a net increase of 440.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03We are continuing to recruit at that rate.
0:20:03 > 0:20:10Is it not right that the reason that sentences are longer
0:20:10 > 0:20:13than they have ever been, the inflation, is caused by action
0:20:13 > 0:20:22taken by Government and not by judges to impose fixed sentences,
0:20:22 > 0:20:27which form rocks on which the rest of sentencing has to accommodate,
0:20:27 > 0:20:31and, if that was not the case, sentences would be shorter,
0:20:31 > 0:20:36because judges are prevented from imposing the sentences
0:20:36 > 0:20:39they otherwise would, by the fixed sentencing
0:20:39 > 0:20:45policies of the Government at a particular time?
0:20:45 > 0:20:47In the eight criminal justice acts which were passed
0:20:47 > 0:20:49by the Labour Government, there was an extraordinary
0:20:49 > 0:20:56inflexibility given to judges, in terms of passing sentences.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58That is one of the results of the prison population.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02We are endeavouring to give as many resources as we can to the parole
0:21:02 > 0:21:05board to make sure when it is safe to release those prisoners
0:21:05 > 0:21:06they will be released.
0:21:06 > 0:21:07Lord Faulks.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09"Transparency is the best disinfectant".
0:21:09 > 0:21:11It's a phrase that's been in common parlance around Westminster
0:21:11 > 0:21:17in the light of the various scandals over the integrity of MPs and peers,
0:21:17 > 0:21:22the most notable one being the expenses scandal of 2009.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26The arguments continue over how much transparency there is and how much
0:21:26 > 0:21:30there should be on such matters as MPs' second jobs,
0:21:30 > 0:21:33and MPs' financial interests.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36The Commons Committee on Standards, has been looking into the topic
0:21:36 > 0:21:42with the help of three close Westminster watchers.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45The latest session focused on the new Code of Conduct for MPs.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47In its widest sense, do you think it has really
0:21:47 > 0:21:50had any impact?
0:21:50 > 0:21:52Has it gone any way to solving the problems
0:21:52 > 0:21:56for which it was intended to address?
0:21:56 > 0:21:59I think the code has had a really important impact in terms
0:21:59 > 0:22:06of the reputation of the UK, both internationally and...
0:22:06 > 0:22:10The sort of standard-setting role internationally.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13Many parliaments in Europe have adopted codes recently and they look
0:22:13 > 0:22:15to the UK as an example.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18The public are very clear that there should be a code
0:22:18 > 0:22:20of conduct, but they also don't really see it as something
0:22:20 > 0:22:22that is there for them to engage with.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25I think there are more...
0:22:25 > 0:22:27I think there are issues around the code of conduct
0:22:27 > 0:22:31and what is in it, but I think there are also more profound issues
0:22:31 > 0:22:33in our public trust about, for example, public understanding
0:22:33 > 0:22:35of what Parliament is and what MPs do.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37I think there are bigger issues around the public not understanding
0:22:37 > 0:22:41the job of an MP and how...
0:22:41 > 0:22:43And, particularly, the fact that, obviously, different MPs choose
0:22:43 > 0:22:46to do that job in very different ways.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49Coming back to something that's cropped up time and time again,
0:22:49 > 0:22:53and that is MPs and second jobs.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56There are good arguments on both sides but it seems to revolve around
0:22:56 > 0:22:59the financial aspects of it.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03Could I put it to you that we should be thinking broader than that?
0:23:03 > 0:23:07It's not the money they're earning, it is what the interest is.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10There are various issues where, if you belong
0:23:10 > 0:23:13to the Royal Society For The Protection Of Birds,
0:23:13 > 0:23:16and there is a big issue on a planning application,
0:23:16 > 0:23:23do you not think we should be looking beyond second jobs,
0:23:23 > 0:23:24but maybe into second interests?
0:23:24 > 0:23:27I think often the focus is on money, partly because that is quite
0:23:27 > 0:23:30salacious, but also because, if you are looking at how we address
0:23:30 > 0:23:32the issue of second jobs, the money is the easiest
0:23:32 > 0:23:33one to address.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36You can either do time, you can do types of job,
0:23:36 > 0:23:39or you can do money, and money is the simplest one
0:23:39 > 0:23:42to regulate, so I think often the focus is on the money
0:23:42 > 0:23:43for those reasons.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46I fully accept that it's about much more than just an amount of money
0:23:46 > 0:23:48that an MP is able to earn.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50It's about how much time their constituents feel
0:23:50 > 0:23:53that their MP is spending on their main job of being an MP,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57and any additional work that they're doing.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00My perspective is from the House of Lords where, in a sense,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03we all have second jobs, or most people do, and in the last
0:24:03 > 0:24:10five years, particularly, the House has become more and more
0:24:10 > 0:24:15sensitive about registering in speeches with the registry
0:24:15 > 0:24:16of interest.
0:24:16 > 0:24:17All these interests.
0:24:17 > 0:24:22Just looking at the current register and declarations of interest,
0:24:22 > 0:24:28are there specific changes arising out of what you have just said that
0:24:28 > 0:24:32you would like to see?
0:24:32 > 0:24:36Unlock Democracy, together with Spinwatch, has have been trying
0:24:36 > 0:24:40to put together a website to bring together all the different
0:24:40 > 0:24:42transparency data that the Government already publishes -
0:24:42 > 0:24:45it is all in the public domain - and publish it in one place.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49We have been finding it a technological nightmare because,
0:24:49 > 0:24:52while all the information is there, it is all in different formats.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54It is all updated at different times.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56Often, it is in the digital equivalent of the cupboard
0:24:56 > 0:24:57under the stairs.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01And it doesn't, in any way, relate to anything else.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03I think a lot of it is around the usability.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07If I wanted to go and search for a particular company and see
0:25:07 > 0:25:09which MPs have registered an interest relating to this
0:25:09 > 0:25:12company, I couldn't do that at the moment.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14Or, similarly, if I wanted to search a particular MP's interests over
0:25:14 > 0:25:17time or, you know, to get usable data, against which you could
0:25:17 > 0:25:25cross-reference with other things, perhaps with voting records,
0:25:25 > 0:25:29that's not possible to do, or at least not without downloading
0:25:29 > 0:25:33and collating all of the data yourself.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35The latest session of the Standards Committee.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36And that's it for this programme.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Do join me for our next daily round-up.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42Until then, from me, Keith Macdougall, goodbye.