:00:14. > :00:15.Hello there and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament.
:00:16. > :00:19.Coming up: MPs ask, just what is the government doing
:00:20. > :00:23.There's drama on the committee corridor as a Whitehall
:00:24. > :00:26.witness is kicked out of a committee hearing.
:00:27. > :00:28.Mr Robbins, I need to excuse you from this committee.
:00:29. > :00:34.Your evidence so far has been unsatisfactory.
:00:35. > :00:36.The government's defeated in the Lords over part
:00:37. > :00:41.And a Conservative MP stirs up confusion over the sugar tax.
:00:42. > :00:44.You are in the rather splendid position that if
:00:45. > :00:48.you mix your own gin and tonic, you will pay a tax on the
:00:49. > :00:55.But first: The Business Secretary, Sajid Javid, has signalled
:00:56. > :01:01.that the government is likely to announce new ministry
:01:02. > :01:04.of Defence orders for UK steel in the coming days.
:01:05. > :01:06.He was responding to an emergency debate about crisis
:01:07. > :01:12.plans to sell its loss-making UK plants in the next few months,
:01:13. > :01:21.On Monday, Sajid Javid also said the government was working hard
:01:22. > :01:24.to find a buyer for the Port Talbot works in south Wales -
:01:25. > :01:27.and was prepared to "co-invest" to smooth the path to a deal.
:01:28. > :01:29.What exactly that government intervention would
:01:30. > :01:32.But in the Commons, his Labour shadow, hoped
:01:33. > :01:45.Mr Speaker, call it what you like, co-investing,
:01:46. > :01:46.part nationalisation, temporary public
:01:47. > :01:49.stewardship or sheltering assets, it is clear that circumstances may
:01:50. > :01:58.Up until now this is a government and Secretary of State
:01:59. > :02:03.They have been behind rather than ahead of events.
:02:04. > :02:06.Their response to the biggest crisis in steel making for a generation has
:02:07. > :02:12.been warm words but little effective action.
:02:13. > :02:17.There has been what can only be described as an ideologically
:02:18. > :02:21.driven reluctance to get involved as the crisis deepened.
:02:22. > :02:23.It's a mixture of indifference and incompetence.
:02:24. > :02:25.Is it the policy of the opposition that
:02:26. > :02:27.the steel industry should now be nationalised?
:02:28. > :02:32.And it should remain in public hands for as long as
:02:33. > :02:35.is necessary and then go back into private hands successfully?
:02:36. > :02:39.Mr Speaker, I think what needs to be done is what is necessary to
:02:40. > :02:40.preserve, restructure and ensure the survival
:02:41. > :02:45.of our steel industry for the future.
:02:46. > :03:05.When we talk about job losses in the abstract it is easy to
:03:06. > :03:06.forget each of them represents a person.
:03:07. > :03:11.Crossrail, the biggest construction project in Europe uses almost
:03:12. > :03:15.exclusively British steel for its 26 miles of tunnels.
:03:16. > :03:17.96% of Network Rail spending on steel goes directly
:03:18. > :03:26.Every year they buy 1500 miles of it from Tata Steel
:03:27. > :03:33.in Scunthorpe, enough to build a two track line from London to Edinburgh.
:03:34. > :03:39.He has the Minister for Defence procurement
:03:40. > :03:42.sitting next to him saying the MoD did not even
:03:43. > :03:43.have a full records of
:03:44. > :03:45.where it was getting steel from for UK defence
:03:46. > :03:50.sure about him following through on procurement
:03:51. > :03:59.keeping records and so many UK projects are being made in China,
:04:00. > :04:02.I think he may hear more about that from the
:04:03. > :04:10.The crisis the steel industry faces is
:04:11. > :04:13.global but I am fighting for British steelworkers every hour of
:04:14. > :04:18.I was fighting for them long before this crisis hit the
:04:19. > :04:21.headlines and I will go on fighting as long as it takes because
:04:22. > :04:24.Britain's steelworkers are the best in the world and they deserve no
:04:25. > :04:32.Will he publish details of the meetings, phone calls and
:04:33. > :04:34.correspondence that he and the Prime Minister
:04:35. > :04:43.Cabinet have made to members of the EU and trade counterparts.
:04:44. > :04:45.If he has indeed strained every sinew for the
:04:46. > :04:47.steel industry he can have nothing to hide,
:04:48. > :04:50.indeed it would help to show if he really had the grip on
:04:51. > :04:55.If we have to have a partial ownership of the
:04:56. > :04:58.steel industry for a period, that makes sense.
:04:59. > :05:01.This is a strategic industry but there is no point in
:05:02. > :05:05.doing that if you cannot solve the overall problem
:05:06. > :05:08.which is the dumping of steel in this country.
:05:09. > :05:13.You have to cut the cancer out first.
:05:14. > :05:15.What we needed from the government was the
:05:16. > :05:17.announcement that all options were on the table.
:05:18. > :05:24.We needed the government to announce they would put down their pom-poms
:05:25. > :05:29.and give up their role as chief cheerleader for China in Europe.
:05:30. > :05:31.End their market championing of China.
:05:32. > :05:33.End their campaign against trade defence
:05:34. > :05:35.reform but what we got was more of the same.
:05:36. > :05:40.Yesterday the Secretary State confirmed what we knew, that
:05:41. > :05:42.the government approach has been characterised by a dangerous
:05:43. > :05:44.combination of indifference, incompetence and rolling out the red
:05:45. > :05:52.No minds were changed as four prominent figures faced
:05:53. > :06:01.the Foreign Affairs Committee to talk about the case
:06:02. > :06:03.for and against the UK's membership of the European Union.
:06:04. > :06:05.The Conservative Dr Liam Fox and Labour's Gisela Stuart argued
:06:06. > :06:09.in favour of leaving the EU - the SNP's Alex Salmond
:06:10. > :06:11.and the Conservative ex-MP Sir Malcolm Rifkind argued
:06:12. > :06:13.Among the subjects raised - democratic accountability,
:06:14. > :06:46.migration, asylum, defence and free movement across borders.
:06:47. > :06:58.on and on a 65 and the world is and we are not getting benefit from
:06:59. > :07:04.being part of the European union. We want to do what is in Britain 's
:07:05. > :07:08.national interest. We took note of what is said in the United States,
:07:09. > :07:12.that is no shortage of American political opinion telling us we
:07:13. > :07:20.should remain in the United # European union. All of our friends
:07:21. > :07:24.around the world are entitled to their view, especially the United
:07:25. > :07:30.States, perhaps when they have an open border with Mexico and have to
:07:31. > :07:36.listen to a body which would override federal law, perhaps we
:07:37. > :07:41.would listen to them off. For Scotland, Europe is a bit like the
:07:42. > :07:47.weather, everyone moans about it but we do not want to abolish it. We do
:07:48. > :07:56.not say it is a perfect institution but we have one which delivers more
:07:57. > :07:58.prosperity and war security and more ability to influence the world
:07:59. > :08:01.environment as a member of the European union. I think it applies
:08:02. > :08:08.to an independent Scotland and I think it applies to the United
:08:09. > :08:13.Kingdom as well. I think this is a once in a generation fought and I
:08:14. > :08:19.arrive at the conclusion it is no best long-term interest to leave.
:08:20. > :08:25.What about the remarks by the IMF today which said a British exit
:08:26. > :08:32.would cause severe local and collateral damage, how do you
:08:33. > :08:40.respond to that? Yet again they are undermining and underestimating the
:08:41. > :08:43.United Kingdom. There is a fair amount of Group E sentiment amongst
:08:44. > :08:52.world leaders of just supporting each other. We have negotiated
:08:53. > :08:55.treaties with 40 other countries on trade issues so there will be a
:08:56. > :09:02.whole series of treaties, none of which we know how they will work
:09:03. > :09:06.out. We will get agreements in the end but in any agreement the secret
:09:07. > :09:12.of a good -- negotiation is to get what you want. Every other country
:09:13. > :09:16.will be applying the same criteria. The European union will say they
:09:17. > :09:20.will let us into the single market and I am sure the well but they will
:09:21. > :09:29.determine the terms. The Prime Minister of Norway has said that it
:09:30. > :09:35.would not work for the United Kingdom, wider you think she holds
:09:36. > :09:38.that view? Because Norway is not the fifth-largest economy and
:09:39. > :09:45.fifth-largest defence budget. It does not have a permanent seat on
:09:46. > :09:49.the UN and other things. If you have heard me talk about Norway, in the
:09:50. > :09:53.sense that if you did a blind test on integration you would find on
:09:54. > :10:00.many levels normally is more integrated. It does not have the
:10:01. > :10:05.Schengen agreement. It does. Sorry it does and we do not. My point is
:10:06. > :10:08.when you make the comparison is you have to be careful because this is
:10:09. > :10:14.an occasion when size does matter. How easy will it be to implement
:10:15. > :10:17.the sugar tax, the surprise measure unveiled in the Budget aimed
:10:18. > :10:19.at tackling childhood obesity? and will be imposed in two bands,
:10:20. > :10:24.a lower one for sugar content above 5 grams per 100 millilitres
:10:25. > :10:27.and a higher one for content with more than 8 grams
:10:28. > :10:29.per 100 millilitres. Paul Johnson, of the Institute
:10:30. > :10:31.for Fiscal Studies, told the Commons Treasury committee
:10:32. > :10:34.he hoped the effect of the new tax would be closely watched by HM
:10:35. > :10:36.Revenue and Customs. I think what is crucial here is that
:10:37. > :10:40.because this is a new thing in this country that we evaluate and learn
:10:41. > :10:48.from the policy as it's put in and then determine future policy
:10:49. > :10:51.on the basis of what we learn about the effectiveness
:10:52. > :10:53.of the current policy. One is about how
:10:54. > :10:56.broad you make this. And the decision, I do not think
:10:57. > :11:01.it is unreasonable, that of a narrow one
:11:02. > :11:06.about soft drinks because there is no additional nutrition benefit
:11:07. > :11:10.to having a sugary drink so that is Keeping an eye on effectiveness
:11:11. > :11:18.and making sure this is one tax which we can
:11:19. > :11:21.actually evaluate would be helpful. Do you think retailers will pass
:11:22. > :11:24.on the cost to consumers That would be the normal
:11:25. > :11:32.starting point. On average, retailers do
:11:33. > :11:36.pass on alcohol taxes to consumers but not always
:11:37. > :11:40.in the same circumstances. Clearly there are some
:11:41. > :11:46.new situations. It is quite a close
:11:47. > :11:53.analogy so it is worth thinking how we see
:11:54. > :11:55.alcohol taxes working. On average most alcohol taxation
:11:56. > :11:57.gets passed on to the and not in all circumstances where
:11:58. > :12:04.retailers want to have particular sales points or ways of attracting
:12:05. > :12:10.people into their stores. I don't know if you know this
:12:11. > :12:23.answer because I don't. If you have premixed alcoholic
:12:24. > :12:26.drinks where the sugar in alcohol is
:12:27. > :12:28.exempt but if it is put in the fizzy drink it
:12:29. > :12:30.is included so if you have a premixed
:12:31. > :12:33.glass of Pimms which I believe you can buy in little cans,
:12:34. > :12:35.where do you think My understanding
:12:36. > :12:42.is this only applies to soft drinks so that would not
:12:43. > :12:46.count as an alcoholic drink but I don't
:12:47. > :12:53.know for sure. So you are in the splendid position
:12:54. > :12:56.if you mix your own gin and tonic you will pay the tax
:12:57. > :13:00.on the tonic but if you buy I do not know if that is true,
:13:01. > :13:04.but this is only soft drinks so that You're watching Tuesday
:13:05. > :13:10.in Parliament, here on BBC Parliament, with me,
:13:11. > :13:16.Alicia McCarthy. A top Whitehall mandarin has been
:13:17. > :13:19.kicked out of a hearing with MPs because its chairman said
:13:20. > :13:22.the answers he'd given Oliver Robbins was threatened
:13:23. > :13:26.with being held in contempt by the Home Affairs Committee
:13:27. > :13:31.chair, Keith Vaz. The exchanges began with questions
:13:32. > :13:37.about the budget of the Border Force is tasked with protecting
:13:38. > :13:41.the UK's borders. Does the head of the Border Force
:13:42. > :13:44.know what his budget is? he would know before the start
:13:45. > :13:48.of the business year. The Border Force is trying
:13:49. > :13:57.to manage a whole series No, Mr Robbins, this
:13:58. > :14:00.is very unsatisfactory. I'm surprised that you cannot answer
:14:01. > :14:03.a question about whether or not someone who is reporting
:14:04. > :14:07.to you knows what their budget is. Because my next letter will be
:14:08. > :14:13.to Sir Charles Montgomery, and will ask him to appear in
:14:14. > :14:16.front of us next week if necessary. This is a select
:14:17. > :14:19.committee of the House. Our duty is to scrutinise
:14:20. > :14:21.the Home Office. You are the second
:14:22. > :14:23.permanent secretary. The Home Secretary has
:14:24. > :14:30.written to Mr Burnham No, I'm not asking about
:14:31. > :14:34.Mr Burnham, I'm asking It's got nothing to
:14:35. > :14:45.do with Mr Burnham. I don't think you understand
:14:46. > :14:48.the role of the select committee. We are asking you specifically
:14:49. > :14:51.on an issue that has been raised by this committee with
:14:52. > :14:53.Sir Charles Montgomery. Does Sir Charles Montgomery know
:14:54. > :14:55.what his budget is? It is either a yes or a no,
:14:56. > :14:57.Mr Robbins. And if you don't answer
:14:58. > :15:00.the question, The exchanges continued
:15:01. > :15:03.in much the same way for a further 20 minutes,
:15:04. > :15:06.before the chair of the committee Mr Robbins, I am going to excuse
:15:07. > :15:10.you from this committee, because I think your evidence so far
:15:11. > :15:12.has been unsatisfactory. I'm going to give you
:15:13. > :15:14.the opportunity to go back to the Home Office and respond
:15:15. > :15:17.to this committee by six o'clock. I'm not asking you what the budget
:15:18. > :15:22.of Sir Charles Montgomery is. I'm asking you to tell me
:15:23. > :15:26.whether he knows what it is, because he has given
:15:27. > :15:28.evidence to this committee, when members asked him,
:15:29. > :15:31.the last time he was here, whether or not he knew
:15:32. > :15:34.what his budget was. He said he expected to have that
:15:35. > :15:37.information by the start of the business year,
:15:38. > :15:40.which is the 1st of April. So I would be grateful
:15:41. > :15:43.if you could let me know by six o'clock today
:15:44. > :15:45.whether he knows what it is. That is all this
:15:46. > :15:47.committee is asking. Mr Burnham is not a member
:15:48. > :15:50.of this committee, so what goes on between him and the Home
:15:51. > :15:53.Secretary is entirely different. Mr Thompson, let us proceed and talk
:15:54. > :16:02.to you about the Passport Office. With those words ringing in his
:16:03. > :16:09.ears, Mr Robbins left the committee. Well, an earlier part
:16:10. > :16:11.of the committee hearing, on a different subject,
:16:12. > :16:13.had been held in an altogether calmer manner when the committee
:16:14. > :16:17.looked into police diversity. A police chief pledged to rectify
:16:18. > :16:21."unconscious bias" that's prevented non-white police officers
:16:22. > :16:24.from reaching the higher The session heard that forces
:16:25. > :16:29.in urban conurbations weren't reflecting the ethnic
:16:30. > :16:33.mix of the communities they were policing and in the last
:16:34. > :16:38.five years there'd been just a 0.9% rise in police numbers from black
:16:39. > :16:42.and minority ethnic - Why is there still this woeful
:16:43. > :16:49.lack of representation? We have heard no chief constables,
:16:50. > :16:52.only one out of the MPCCs. In the senior ranks
:16:53. > :16:55.of the forces we will be looking at today, there
:16:56. > :16:57.is still a lack of representation. Everyone comes before this
:16:58. > :17:00.committee and they say, From a national perspective,
:17:01. > :17:09.there is a crisis of confidence around fair treatment for black
:17:10. > :17:13.and Asian minority ethnic officers. and have seen a dismantling
:17:14. > :17:21.of staff support associations, which has led to a perception
:17:22. > :17:26.of a conspiracy that black and Asian
:17:27. > :17:27.minority ethnic officers We need to get over some
:17:28. > :17:39.of the myths that there are, And I think, once they join,
:17:40. > :17:44.it is about understanding how you acquire the necessary
:17:45. > :17:46.skills to get promoted. The challenge is,
:17:47. > :17:48.there are greater problems There is a real challenge
:17:49. > :17:51.in accessing courses Do you agree with
:17:52. > :17:57.former commander Babu? Should it be the chief
:17:58. > :17:59.constables themselves? Think there should be an element
:18:00. > :18:01.of chief constables, but it is who is holding
:18:02. > :18:03.them to account? When we're talking about diversity,
:18:04. > :18:09.when we're talking about performance,
:18:10. > :18:12.then we get that accountability. Do you think there is still racism
:18:13. > :18:15.within the police service? I believe that there
:18:16. > :18:16.is institutional racism in the police service,
:18:17. > :18:22.given the policy and practices that are written, which have hidden
:18:23. > :18:25.biases which are not always visible until you overlay the lived
:18:26. > :18:29.experience of members Isn't the problem
:18:30. > :18:33.the selection panels? You tend to find that
:18:34. > :18:35.people select people Therefore, if the selection panels
:18:36. > :18:39.have no BME people on them, you're never going to get
:18:40. > :18:43.any BME people, are you? I think that the buzzwords at
:18:44. > :18:46.the moment are "unconscious bias". A lot of forces are looking
:18:47. > :18:49.into that and training selection panel members to go
:18:50. > :18:52.through that sort of training. But there have historically been
:18:53. > :18:55.perceptions among the BME staff that, if you don't fit in,
:18:56. > :18:59.you are not part of the network, we don't share their values,
:19:00. > :19:02.you're not going to get promoted. The requirement the Met have had
:19:03. > :19:07.for recruitment within London I think it has delivered
:19:08. > :19:14.some positive results. I have spoken at length,
:19:15. > :19:18.in fact at this committee, about the fact that the
:19:19. > :19:21.importance of language, If we have officers who can speak
:19:22. > :19:25.different languages, they are able to engage with victims
:19:26. > :19:28.of domestic violence and support those individuals,
:19:29. > :19:30.they are able to help us So this is not about being nice,
:19:31. > :19:35.it is about real qualities that individuals need to be able
:19:36. > :19:38.to deliver a better service The session then heard
:19:39. > :19:43.from a Chief Constable. There is an issue here about looking
:19:44. > :19:46.attentively and carefully, not just in terms of the values
:19:47. > :19:50.I set for the force, in which diversity
:19:51. > :19:53.is very strongly set in them, but actually we look very
:19:54. > :19:56.carefully at the processes. My sense is that it is not
:19:57. > :19:58.that we are engaging in directly
:19:59. > :20:01.discriminatory activity, but there is definitely unconscious
:20:02. > :20:04.bias running in processes in forces. We have talked about
:20:05. > :20:07.unconscious bias. What assurances can you give this
:20:08. > :20:14.committee today about what you're going to do personally to address
:20:15. > :20:18.that issue within the police force? I set out a number of issues around
:20:19. > :20:20.people's responsibilities One of those responsibilities
:20:21. > :20:24.relates to unconscious bias, which is, six months
:20:25. > :20:26.from my appointment, there will be no interviews
:20:27. > :20:29.for any job selection in the force where staff are not
:20:30. > :20:33.unconscious-bias trained. The first group of people who we've
:20:34. > :20:36.had trained are the command team, We will also be doing an assessment
:20:37. > :20:40.on unconscious bias at those levels. We do a senior leaders training
:20:41. > :20:43.day on the 19th of May. We will not do appointments
:20:44. > :20:46.in our force, because I don't think it is safe and appropriate to do
:20:47. > :20:49.that without that training. The Government has suffered a defeat
:20:50. > :20:51.in the House of Lords Peers backed an amendment
:20:52. > :20:58.from Labour's Lady Lister that would prevent pregnant women
:20:59. > :20:59.facing deportation from being held in
:21:00. > :21:01.deportation centres. Lady Lister said the Government had
:21:02. > :21:06.pledged to look again at the issue. Current Home Office policy already
:21:07. > :21:10.states that the only exception to the general rule that pregnant
:21:11. > :21:15.women should not be detained is when removal is imminent and medical
:21:16. > :21:18.advice does not suggest that the women concerned
:21:19. > :21:21.will go into labour In spite of this clear presumption
:21:22. > :21:29.against detention, in 2014, 99 pregnant women were detained
:21:30. > :21:37.and, in 2015, 69. Of the 99 pregnant women detained
:21:38. > :21:42.in Yarl's Wood in 2014, 30 - that is nearly a third - were held
:21:43. > :21:46.between one and three months. Just nine were actually
:21:47. > :21:55.deported from the UK. The Royal College of Midwives,
:21:56. > :21:58.my Lords, says that the detention of pregnant asylum seekers
:21:59. > :22:02.increases the likelihood of stress, which can risk
:22:03. > :22:06.the health of the unborn baby. In his review that the noble
:22:07. > :22:10.Baroness has referred to, Stephen Shaw, the former Prisons
:22:11. > :22:16.and Probation Ombudsman says this, "Detention has an incontrovertibly
:22:17. > :22:20.deleterious effect on the health of pregnant women
:22:21. > :22:26.and their unborn children." Having visited Yarl's Wood three
:22:27. > :22:28.times myself over the years whatever the rights or wrongs
:22:29. > :22:35.of their situation, they are often very distressed,
:22:36. > :22:37.very worried about being returned, whether they have a right
:22:38. > :22:40.to remain here or not. And to have mothers
:22:41. > :22:42.who are pregnant in that situation As the noble Baroness said,
:22:43. > :22:45.there is no evidence that one returns mothers in these
:22:46. > :22:49.circumstances by detaining them. is that it is much more effective
:22:50. > :22:55.to build a relationship so that they can be returned
:22:56. > :22:59.in a good way. But the Government
:23:00. > :23:02.was not backing down. While the Government agrees
:23:03. > :23:05.that it is not right to detain pregnant women
:23:06. > :23:09.unless there are exceptional circumstances, it does not
:23:10. > :23:11.consider that an absolute As has been explained in this House
:23:12. > :23:17.and indeed in the Other Place, it is important that the Government
:23:18. > :23:19.is able to detain, for a short period, those with no
:23:20. > :23:25.right to be in the United Kingdom, For example, if there
:23:26. > :23:34.is an immediate removal planned, a short period of detention may be
:23:35. > :23:36.appropriate to facilitate a safe departure, where there
:23:37. > :23:40.are absconding risks or other public protection
:23:41. > :23:45.risks to be considered. But when it came to the vote,
:23:46. > :23:48.peers backed an outright ban on the detention of pregnant women
:23:49. > :23:52.by 274 votes to 215 - Finally, festival and concert-goers
:23:53. > :24:00.should be banned from setting off fireworks
:24:01. > :24:04.and flares during performances. The call came from a Conservative
:24:05. > :24:07.MP, Nigel Adams, who told the Commons that in 2014
:24:08. > :24:14.there were more than 250 incidents at live music events -
:24:15. > :24:16.both indoors and outdoors. Flares can burn add up
:24:17. > :24:20.to 1,600 degrees Celsius, and fireworks even hotter,
:24:21. > :24:22.up to 2,000 degrees Celsius. Not to mention the added danger
:24:23. > :24:28.from an unexpected projectile. Smoke bombs are also hot and pose
:24:29. > :24:37.particular risks in indoor venues, and for fellow audience
:24:38. > :24:39.members with asthma or other such breathing
:24:40. > :24:40.difficulties. Gigs and festivals are particular
:24:41. > :24:42.popular among young people, and both they and their parents
:24:43. > :24:47.have the right to feel safe in attending
:24:48. > :24:48.or sending their children. Unfortunately,
:24:49. > :24:49.this was not the experience of an 18-year-old girl who attended
:24:50. > :24:55.an Arctic Monkeys concert and required three dressings
:24:56. > :24:58.to burns on her arms Or the 17-year-old girl
:24:59. > :25:04.at the Reading Festival, who suffered a panic attack
:25:05. > :25:07.after being burned by a smoke bomb He stressed he was not calling
:25:08. > :25:14.for a complete ban at such events. Venues and artists would
:25:15. > :25:16.still be able to use pyrotechnics in their acts and stage setups
:25:17. > :25:19.as the currently do. I certainly don't want to curtail
:25:20. > :25:23.the ability of trained professionals At the end of that speech,
:25:24. > :25:30.Mr Adams won the right to take his bill forward,
:25:31. > :25:32.but this close to the end of the parliamentary session,
:25:33. > :25:38.it stands no chance of becoming law. And that's it for now, but do
:25:39. > :25:42.join me at the same time tomorrow, when among other things,
:25:43. > :25:45.we'll have the highlights