0:00:12 > 0:00:15Hello and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament, our look at the best
0:00:15 > 0:00:18of the day in the Commons and the Lords.
0:00:18 > 0:00:19On this programme:
0:00:19 > 0:00:22After the Home Secretary's sceptical speech, the Commons argues over
0:00:22 > 0:00:26the European Convention on Human Rights.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Why should this house vote for something we do not believe in,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32which our constituents do not believe in?
0:00:32 > 0:00:34And it's restoring that common-sense that is the objective
0:00:34 > 0:00:37of this entire goverment.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Are they the "crack cocaine" of gambling?
0:00:40 > 0:00:43MPs focus on the hazards of Fixed Odds Betting Terminals.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47Now is the time to look very carefully at the
0:00:47 > 0:00:50damage these machines are doing.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54And a Labour MP mocks last week's election in the House of Lords
0:00:54 > 0:01:01of a Lib Dem hereditary peer.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03No spoiled ballot papers, and miraculously,
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Madame Deputy Speaker, all three votes went
0:01:05 > 0:01:07to Viscount Thurso in the first round!
0:01:07 > 0:01:09But first, the Home Secretary has faced accusations of having gone
0:01:09 > 0:01:14"rogue" by calling for the UK to quit the European Convention
0:01:14 > 0:01:17on Human Rights, the ECHR.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Theresa May said Britain should remain part of the European Union
0:01:21 > 0:01:24but leave the convention which, she said,
0:01:24 > 0:01:26"can bind the hands of Parliament".
0:01:26 > 0:01:29Her remarks have been defended by the Attorney General,
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Jeremy Wright, who came to the Commons to answer an urgent
0:01:32 > 0:01:38question from a Lib Dem MP who spoke about Government "confusion".
0:01:39 > 0:01:42The Home Secretary was the one who could make the speech yesterday.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44She can apparently come and make a statement tomorrow.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46She should be here today.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Yesterday, she went rogue.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Today, she has gone missing.
0:01:51 > 0:01:56The truth of the matter is, that there is now total confusion
0:01:56 > 0:01:58at the heart of government policy on this.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02The Home Secretary tells us that apparently, she wants to remain
0:02:02 > 0:02:05in the European Union, but leave the convention.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08The parliamentary undersecretary wants to leave the European Union,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11but remain in the convention.
0:02:11 > 0:02:16The Lord Chancellor wants to leave the European Union,
0:02:16 > 0:02:17stay in the convention,
0:02:17 > 0:02:19but ignore the jurisprudence of the court.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Thank goodness we don't have the instability
0:02:23 > 0:02:26of a Coalition Government any more(!)
0:02:26 > 0:02:28The Attorney General said the Government had a "mandate"
0:02:28 > 0:02:30to seek reform of the ECHR.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33The Prime Minister has been clear throughout that we rule
0:02:33 > 0:02:35out absolutely nothing in getting that done.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Although our preference is to seek to achieve reforms while remaining
0:02:39 > 0:02:42members of the European Convention.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45What the Home Secretary was doing yesterday,
0:02:45 > 0:02:48in a speech with which I suspect he broadly agreed,
0:02:48 > 0:02:52and with which I certainly found to be a very persuasive case
0:02:52 > 0:02:54for remaining within the European Union,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57what she was doing was to set out some of the difficulties
0:02:57 > 0:03:00with the human rights landscape as it stands,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03and we think that there are considerable difficulties.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06There is an absence of common sense.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10There have been cases which have demonstrated that human rights law
0:03:10 > 0:03:16is headed in the wrong direction, and it is restoring that
0:03:16 > 0:03:19is headed in the wrong direction, and it is restoring that common
0:03:19 > 0:03:21sense that is the objective of this entire government.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23The Home Secretary was absolutely clear -
0:03:23 > 0:03:26we should leave the EC HR whatever the outcome of the EU referendum.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29So what status do the Home Secretary's remarks have?
0:03:29 > 0:03:30Are they government policy?
0:03:30 > 0:03:32Do they bind the MoJ and the government?
0:03:32 > 0:03:34Or is it just the Home Office that is coming out
0:03:34 > 0:03:37of the convention?
0:03:37 > 0:03:40I have to say to the honourable gentleman that he will find
0:03:40 > 0:03:44many of his constituents and many of mine do not think
0:03:44 > 0:03:45the status quo is acceptable.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47They do wish to see reform.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50That's what we had a mandate for in the general election,
0:03:50 > 0:03:52and that's what this government will deliver.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57Doesn't this unholy model demonstrate the trouble you get
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Doesn't this unholy muddle demonstrate the trouble you get
0:03:59 > 0:04:02into when we contract out our policy to the tabloid leader writers?
0:04:02 > 0:04:05And isn't the truth of it that the simplicities that suit them
0:04:05 > 0:04:09actually override an immensely complex issue here, and the fact
0:04:09 > 0:04:13that the message our nation sends out about our commitment to human
0:04:13 > 0:04:16rights should be through an unswerving commitment
0:04:16 > 0:04:21to the convention?
0:04:21 > 0:04:23The ECHR is hard-wired into the Scotland Act.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25Everything that the Scottish Government and the Scottish
0:04:25 > 0:04:28Parliament do is governed by the EC HR, and I can assure
0:04:28 > 0:04:31Parliament do is governed by the ECHR, and I can assure
0:04:31 > 0:04:34that the British government is that, given the composition of the last
0:04:34 > 0:04:37Scottish Parliament and the likely composition of the next
0:04:37 > 0:04:38Scottish Parliament, there is no question
0:04:38 > 0:04:41of the Scottish Parliament ever giving its consents to Britain
0:04:41 > 0:04:44withdrawing from the ECHR.
0:04:44 > 0:04:49The convention on human rights has been extended way
0:04:49 > 0:04:51beyond the original remit that was drawn up, in part
0:04:51 > 0:04:53by the United Kingdom, in the immediate aftermath
0:04:53 > 0:04:55of the Second World War.
0:04:55 > 0:04:56My right honourable friend is absolutely right
0:04:56 > 0:04:57to seek to pursue changes.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00Will he do so as swiftly as possible to get the thing
0:05:00 > 0:05:02back under control?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05The Attorney and the Justice Secretary say they haven't
0:05:05 > 0:05:09ruled out the UK leaving the European Convention
0:05:09 > 0:05:12on Human Rights, the more it is sounding to me
0:05:12 > 0:05:15like a direction of travel, that that is exactly
0:05:15 > 0:05:22what they are intending to do, and I find that chilling.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24In the European Court of Human Rights, we have
0:05:24 > 0:05:26pseudo-judges, many of them political appointees, rather than
0:05:26 > 0:05:28rather than proper judges, overreaching their remit
0:05:28 > 0:05:29under the convention with ridiculous
0:05:29 > 0:05:31decisions such as votes for prisoners.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34Why should this house vote for something we do not believe in,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37which our constituents do not believe in, and for something
0:05:37 > 0:05:40which makes the Prime Minister physically sick?
0:05:40 > 0:05:43The status quo which he has described there is unacceptable
0:05:43 > 0:05:46to quite a lot of people in this country, quite a lot of people
0:05:46 > 0:05:49we all represent, and I think the case for reform is unanswerable,
0:05:49 > 0:05:55and that's what this government is going to do.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57An opposition attempt to prevent the government merging the control
0:05:57 > 0:06:00of fire and rescue services in England with the police has
0:06:00 > 0:06:01failed in the Commons.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03The Government intends handing the running of fire services
0:06:03 > 0:06:07to Police and Crime Commissioners.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09Ministers insist the operation of the two will remain separate.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Labour tried to block the move, which is contained in
0:06:12 > 0:06:14the Police and Crime Bill.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16A Shadow Home Office minister wondered what benefits
0:06:16 > 0:06:22the elected PCCs would bring to the fire and rescue service.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24Peter Murphy, the director of public policy research
0:06:24 > 0:06:30at Nottingham business School, has argued that slipping
0:06:30 > 0:06:33into the status of a Cinderella service would only be a repeat
0:06:33 > 0:06:38of what happened the last time fire had to share
0:06:38 > 0:06:39an agenda with policing.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42I will quote him in full, because it really gets, I think,
0:06:42 > 0:06:44to the heart of the matter.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48He says: If the proposals are implemented, there
0:06:48 > 0:06:53is a very strong chance that Fire And Rescue Services would go
0:06:53 > 0:06:58back to the benign neglect that characterised the service
0:06:58 > 0:07:02of 1974-2001, when the Home Office was last responsible
0:07:02 > 0:07:05for the Fire Service.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07And would she agree with me that this move, this proposal,
0:07:07 > 0:07:11if you combine it with a 17% cuts that have already been seen
0:07:11 > 0:07:15in the service across the country, could lead to quite a risky
0:07:15 > 0:07:19situation for many vulnerable households in particular?
0:07:19 > 0:07:23If there was an attempt to combine the emergency services,
0:07:23 > 0:07:27fire and police, then we would have moved to one funding stream.
0:07:27 > 0:07:32I've categorically ruled that out, so that sort of scaremongering,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36not from the shadow minister, but from others, is actually flawed.
0:07:36 > 0:07:40There was a separate funding strain from the precept and on the police,
0:07:40 > 0:07:44and the only piece that is going to be amalgamated should the PCCs,
0:07:44 > 0:07:46just like the Metro mayors are actually doing,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49is in the back office and on the administrative side.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53To be clear, there is no suggestion that police officers
0:07:53 > 0:07:57will be fighting fires, or firefighters arresting criminals.
0:07:57 > 0:08:03The legislation simply reforms the governance of the two services,
0:08:03 > 0:08:07and ensures one democratically accountable individual has
0:08:07 > 0:08:11responsibility for the two services.
0:08:11 > 0:08:16I do believe, and I don't feel ashamed of saying this at all,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19I do believe that firefighters and police officers perform
0:08:19 > 0:08:22very different roles, and that doesn't mean to say
0:08:22 > 0:08:26that we don't value the roles of both equally, but they perform
0:08:26 > 0:08:28very different roles, and have different remits,
0:08:28 > 0:08:33and very, very differently, a police officer is seen as a legal
0:08:33 > 0:08:39person, someone who is actually there to uphold the law.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42A fireman or fire woman, or anyone who is involved
0:08:42 > 0:08:44in the rescue services is seen very, very differently.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46And again, that single employer would begin to confuse
0:08:46 > 0:08:53that in the public mind.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56It is that requirement to hold yourself to account
0:08:56 > 0:08:59in front of the electors, which I think goes to the heart
0:08:59 > 0:09:02of the success of the PCC model, and is a success that I think
0:09:02 > 0:09:06is important to extend to the Fire and Rescue Service, and I will give
0:09:06 > 0:09:07way to the honourable lady.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10I'm very grateful for the honourable gentleman giving way.
0:09:10 > 0:09:15The honourable lady opposite spoke about cuts, but Cheshire's Police
0:09:15 > 0:09:18Crime Commissioner has very successfully put more officers
0:09:18 > 0:09:21on the front line.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24He has collaborated with his local Fire and Rescue Service,
0:09:24 > 0:09:28where there will be co-located in police headquarters in Winsford,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31and it is an example of where cooperation
0:09:31 > 0:09:35is delivering more for less, very, very effectively.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37This clause, I think, gives the power for the Secretary
0:09:37 > 0:09:42of State to make a name change, but a clear name change,
0:09:42 > 0:09:46to ensure that at the next set of national elections,
0:09:46 > 0:09:49people will understand that they are voting
0:09:49 > 0:09:52for a combined role of a Police Crime Commissioner and a Fire
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Commissioner as well.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59But it must remain cemented in their minds through this
0:09:59 > 0:10:03title that those roles, although they have a combined
0:10:03 > 0:10:07leadership, remain absolutely separate and their operational
0:10:07 > 0:10:11independence is protected by under this bill.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13independence is protected under this bill.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Now, how addictive are these machines?
0:10:16 > 0:10:18It's estimated that people in Britain spend as much
0:10:18 > 0:10:22as a billion pounds a week playing on Fixed Odds Betting Terminals,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25machines installed in betting shops that allow people to bet
0:10:25 > 0:10:30on the outcome of various games and events with fixed odds.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33The machines have proved controversial since they first
0:10:33 > 0:10:35appeared.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Critics say it's possible to lose large amounts of money
0:10:37 > 0:10:40and the machines are leading to problem gambling.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45The latest debate on the subject was initiated by a Democratic Unionist.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48The lack of regulation of Fixed Odds Betting Terminals has
0:10:48 > 0:10:51meant that they have clustered in areas of high social deprivation.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53They are able to prey on the young and the vulnerable.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55There is strong evidence that the high-stakes
0:10:55 > 0:10:58on the Fixed Odds Betting Terminals and the low supervision environment
0:10:58 > 0:11:02of a bookmaker has led to and increased problem with gambling.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05In my constituency of Glasgow East, there are a particularly high
0:11:05 > 0:11:09number of betting shops within a concentrated area.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11It's been suggested that the disproportionate impact
0:11:11 > 0:11:14that Fixed Odds Betting Terminals have on poorer and more vulnerable
0:11:14 > 0:11:20communities due to the massive overprovision in those areas,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23with some streets in the East End of Glasgow having as many as four
0:11:23 > 0:11:26bookmakers in the same street within a few hundred
0:11:26 > 0:11:29yards of each other, with multiple units in each shop.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31A Labour MP said there was a connection between crime
0:11:31 > 0:11:35and Fixed Odds Betting Terminals, or FOBATeeS.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40Seven out of ten MPs, cross-party, agree with me and others that
0:11:40 > 0:11:43FOBATeeS are a dangerous pastime.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47The government is due to launch its triennial review.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Now is the time to look very carefully at the damage
0:11:50 > 0:11:52that these machines are doing.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55The gambling commission has said if they were setting the stake
0:11:55 > 0:11:59now, they would advise against the ?100 stake,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02purely on precautionary measures.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03I do understand the instinct of this government,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06a Conservative government, is not to give in to
0:12:06 > 0:12:07the nanny state urges.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10It's the sort of argument I would make on a fairly
0:12:10 > 0:12:11regular basis.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14But it does seem to be odd that we might impose a sugar tax,
0:12:14 > 0:12:17that we have ever more draconian measures against smokers,
0:12:17 > 0:12:21at the self same time that we allow these high-stakes gambling machines
0:12:21 > 0:12:25to proliferate in such a loosely regulated environment.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29So I would ask the minister now to work with responsible operators
0:12:29 > 0:12:32in the gambling industry, of whom there are very many,
0:12:32 > 0:12:34to reduce the FOBATee stake.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37These machines are already very heavily regulated.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39Every aspect of their operation is controlled.
0:12:40 > 0:12:40They must be licensed.
0:12:40 > 0:12:41The maximum stake is controlled.
0:12:41 > 0:12:42The maximum stake is controlled.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44The maximum pay-out is controlled.
0:12:44 > 0:12:48The fact is that gambling is available in many forms,
0:12:48 > 0:12:54and there is no control over, let's say, how much anyone can stake
0:12:54 > 0:12:57on a five-furlong flat race which is over in less than a minute.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59There is no control over how many scratchcards
0:12:59 > 0:13:01a 16-year-old can buy...
0:13:01 > 0:13:03I will give way, very briefly.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05He seems to be making a very principled argument
0:13:05 > 0:13:08that we shouldn't have a ?100 limit on FOBATeeS, that why should
0:13:08 > 0:13:11we have that if you can bet ?1,000 on a horse race,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14or ?10,000 on a horse race, or walk into a casino and put
0:13:14 > 0:13:17X amount on whatever, what is the point of having a ?100
0:13:17 > 0:13:18maximum stake on a FOBATee?
0:13:18 > 0:13:21His argument is clearly to remove the maximum stake and allow freedom
0:13:21 > 0:13:24His argument is clearly to remove the maximum stake and allow freedom
0:13:24 > 0:13:27His argument is clearly to remove the maximum stake and allow freedom
0:13:27 > 0:13:29to stake as much as you would like.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32Well, the factors that very few people bet ?100 a stake.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35In fact, only around one in 100 customers even stake over ?50,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38and the average stake on a machine is just ?5.13.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41It is about location, more than anything else.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45It's about the proximity of these machines to people who may be
0:13:45 > 0:13:48vulnerable to developing a gambling habit, and falling foul
0:13:48 > 0:13:53of their propensity to gamble too much by going into a betting shop
0:13:53 > 0:13:58and losing more money than they can afford to lose.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01The Minister said the Government has brought in measures to end
0:14:01 > 0:14:06unsupervised high stake gambling on Fixed Odds Betting Terminals.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10The industry and the gambling commission introduced additional
0:14:10 > 0:14:13measures to further the social responsibility agenda at this time,
0:14:13 > 0:14:16which I will touch on shortly.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19The government subsequently conducted an evaluation
0:14:19 > 0:14:22of the regulations on B2 gaming machines, which was published
0:14:22 > 0:14:23earlier this year.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26In summary, there have been a significant reduction
0:14:26 > 0:14:30in the number of stakes above ?50, and there are indications that
0:14:30 > 0:14:35as a result of these regulations, players on B2 gaming machines may
0:14:35 > 0:14:40now be thinking about making a more conscious choice to control
0:14:40 > 0:14:44their playing behaviour.
0:14:44 > 0:14:45You're watching our round-up of the day
0:14:45 > 0:14:47in the Commons and the Lords.
0:14:47 > 0:14:48Still to come:
0:14:48 > 0:14:51Are operations in the NHS being denied to people who smoke
0:14:51 > 0:14:59and who're overweight?
0:14:59 > 0:15:02More accurate information on the number of EU migrants living
0:15:02 > 0:15:07in the UK will be published ahead of the referendum.
0:15:07 > 0:15:12That's the promise that's been given to a committee of MPs.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15But the national statistician John Pullinger said accurate figures
0:15:15 > 0:15:17were hard to come by, because of 'red tape'
0:15:17 > 0:15:19in government departments.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23Meanwhile the head of the UK Statistics Authority
0:15:23 > 0:15:27defended his clarification on figure used by the 'Vote Leave' campaign
0:15:27 > 0:15:29to the chairman of the public administration committee,
0:15:29 > 0:15:34who's also a board member of 'Vote Leave'.
0:15:34 > 0:15:39At the moment, we have our international migration estimates
0:15:39 > 0:15:42based on the international passenger survey which was never designed
0:15:42 > 0:15:48for this purpose but has proved itself pretty robust when tested
0:15:48 > 0:15:50against external figures.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54If we had had access to these data sets, I would be much freer to go
0:15:54 > 0:15:57to the Home Office and get
0:15:57 > 0:16:02individual data such as it is on exits and incoming data.
0:16:02 > 0:16:07At the moment that requires a protracted
0:16:07 > 0:16:12negotiation, not for a bad reason but because my colleagues in the
0:16:12 > 0:16:14Home Office have a particular set of legal requirements around what data
0:16:15 > 0:16:18they can share with people.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21There is not an unambiguous clarity that I am someone they can
0:16:21 > 0:16:23share data with.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25If I want figures about immigration I have to go to
0:16:25 > 0:16:32DWP re issuing national insurance numbers.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35I have to go to HMRC to understand which foreign born people are
0:16:35 > 0:16:38on the system somewhere, either because they are paying tax or
0:16:38 > 0:16:42claiming benefits and I would go to the health service to find out how
0:16:42 > 0:16:44many foreign people are using the health service.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46To understand immigration I need to put together a jigsaw
0:16:46 > 0:16:49of different sources.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53Can I just declare an interest as a director of Vote Leave which you
0:16:53 > 0:17:00may or may not have been aware of when you issued a mild rebuke
0:17:00 > 0:17:03to Vote Leave about the use of ?350 million per
0:17:03 > 0:17:07week as an indication of what it costs the UK to be a member of
0:17:07 > 0:17:17the EU.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21Can I just also clarify the 19.1 billion figure in table 9/9 is a
0:17:21 > 0:17:24valid figure nevertheless, if it is surrounded by sufficient
0:17:24 > 0:17:28explanation?
0:17:28 > 0:17:32Your term is mild rebuke.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35The letter that I wrote is not suggesting that 19.1 billion is not
0:17:35 > 0:17:36the gross figure.
0:17:36 > 0:17:41Indeed I wrote to you earlier setting out the figures.
0:17:41 > 0:17:50My concern was that for example the
0:17:50 > 0:17:53poster that said something of the form we should stop sending ?350
0:17:53 > 0:17:56million a week to the EU and spend it on our NHS instead, could be
0:17:56 > 0:18:01interpreted as implying the gross figure was in fact the net figure.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Mr Gove is very careful in his speeches to
0:18:06 > 0:18:09say we send 19.1 billion but a rebate of 4.4 billion comes
0:18:09 > 0:18:13to us and 4.8 billion comes back to us.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17It was that I was wanting to draw attention to.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21As discussion then returned to counting migration figures,
0:18:21 > 0:18:23the various indicators of who came to the UK and how long
0:18:23 > 0:18:26they stayed were compared.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29It left one MP feeling dismayed.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31We're really not in control of this.
0:18:31 > 0:18:38We really don't have the information about who is coming in and who's
0:18:38 > 0:18:40working, who is staying and who is leaving because all the answers
0:18:40 > 0:18:43from the three of you have left me feeling
0:18:43 > 0:18:46that we are just not in control of what is going
0:18:46 > 0:18:53on in our own country.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55We can check now the numbers we're getting in our published figures
0:18:55 > 0:18:58against the number of people actually residing in different
0:18:58 > 0:19:00parts of the country so we are continually checking
0:19:00 > 0:19:03but it is an uncertain science.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05So the answer is yes, we're not in control
0:19:05 > 0:19:07and we do not know exactly what is happening.
0:19:08 > 0:19:08We don't know exactly.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Thank you.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13But he promised more accurate information
0:19:13 > 0:19:15would be published in May - ahead of June's In/Out
0:19:15 > 0:19:21EU referendum.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24As we reported last week, the former Lib Dem MP John Thurso
0:19:24 > 0:19:25is back in Parliament.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30Viscount Thurso has successfully completed the procedure to win
0:19:30 > 0:19:32a place as an elected hereditary member of the Lords.
0:19:32 > 0:19:36Every time a hereditary peer dies an election takes place.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39But the voters are just the existing hereditary members of the party
0:19:39 > 0:19:42of the deceased peer.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44In the Commons, the former Justice Minister David Hanson
0:19:44 > 0:19:47thought the process faintly absurd.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50He brought in a Bill scrapping the provision,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53that's been in place for 17 years, allowing 90 hereditary peers
0:19:53 > 0:19:55to continue to sit in the Lords.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58He mentioned some of the more unusual aspects of the
0:19:58 > 0:20:03election of Lord Thurso.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06The electorate that held power to elect the noble peer in
0:20:06 > 0:20:11this House of Lords was in this case, Mr Speaker, three people.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14This, Mr Speaker, is the 21st century.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16The three remaining Lib Dem hereditary peers
0:20:16 > 0:20:21were the sole electorate in this House.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Each hopeful in this election had to write 75 words
0:20:24 > 0:20:26about why they should be
0:20:26 > 0:20:30trusted with the seat in this Parliament.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33The eventual winner's manifesto was excellent for the environment.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38It was a blank piece of paper.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41For the gang of three people who voted for him,
0:20:41 > 0:20:43there were no words saying what he would do
0:20:43 > 0:20:48and why he would do it.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51I am pleased to tell the House that unlike the national
0:20:51 > 0:20:55declining voter trend, there was a 100% turnout in this action.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59No spoiled ballot papers and miraculously, all three
0:20:59 > 0:21:04votes went to Viscount Thurso in the first round.
0:21:04 > 0:21:10The count, Madame Deputy Speaker, took 24 hours which is not
0:21:10 > 0:21:12quite Houghton and Washington South...
0:21:12 > 0:21:15But still resulted in a member of Parliament.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18Houghton and Sunderland South being the Commons constituency that
0:21:18 > 0:21:20at every General Election counts its votes faster
0:21:20 > 0:21:23than everywhere else.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Mr Hanson's Bill was given initial approval but won't become law due
0:21:26 > 0:21:32to a lack of Parliamentary time.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Growing numbers of smokers and seriously overweight people
0:21:35 > 0:21:38are being denied operations as they are 'soft targets'
0:21:38 > 0:21:41for money-saving in the National Health Service.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45That's the claim of the Royal College of Surgeons,
0:21:45 > 0:21:47which said such restrictions were wrong and left those
0:21:47 > 0:21:50affected in distress.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52The Royal College said the refusal to do operations was
0:21:52 > 0:21:57happening in more and more areas across England.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00In the Lords, a Health Minister said he didn't support what he termed any
0:22:00 > 0:22:04'arbitrary restrictions' on the treatment of patients.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06However, there are often sound clinical reasons to
0:22:06 > 0:22:10encourage patients to lose weight or stop smoking.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13For example, to get the best clinical benefit from joint
0:22:13 > 0:22:15replacement surgery.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17CCGs should support patients to reduce their tobacco
0:22:17 > 0:22:23consumption or weight and signpost them to appropriate services.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26Can I ask the Minister what action he intends to take against clinical
0:22:26 > 0:22:32commissioning groups who are commissioning services based on
0:22:32 > 0:22:39arbitrary, discriminatory decisions rather than on evidence.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41The whole purpose of local commissioning groups was that
0:22:41 > 0:22:44they would be guided and directed by local clinicians so they must be
0:22:44 > 0:22:49allowed to set their own local priorities.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52It would not be right for me to direct commissioning
0:22:52 > 0:22:56groups how to behaviour.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59It is clear these blanket bans are nothing more
0:22:59 > 0:23:03than crude rationing and causing distress to patients.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05Will he issue instructions to CCGs they should not
0:23:06 > 0:23:10embark on these blanket bans?
0:23:10 > 0:23:13Will he agree that programmes to support
0:23:13 > 0:23:15weight management and smoking cessation should be part of the
0:23:15 > 0:23:18treatment programme rather than being used as a barrier to
0:23:18 > 0:23:22treatment?
0:23:22 > 0:23:24Yes, my Lord.
0:23:24 > 0:23:34He has really quoted verbatim from the recommendations
0:23:34 > 0:23:36the Royal College of Surgeons put in their report.
0:23:36 > 0:23:37I agree with him completely.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40As a surgeon I had cause to cancel or delay operations of patients
0:23:40 > 0:23:42who were obese or were smokers.
0:23:42 > 0:23:43Those decisions were based on clinical
0:23:43 > 0:23:46grounds from the knowledge I had of the individual patients.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48Clinical Commissioning Groups can give
0:23:48 > 0:23:52guidance but they should not be providing diktats.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55What assurance will the Minister gave that clinical
0:23:55 > 0:23:59decisions will be left to those who have the best interest
0:23:59 > 0:24:03of the patient at hand and know the patient?
0:24:03 > 0:24:06Does the Minister accept that
0:24:06 > 0:24:08the reductions in expenditure of public health of ?200 million a year
0:24:08 > 0:24:13may make it harder to reduce the
0:24:13 > 0:24:18prevalence of tobacco smoking and obesity and in these
0:24:18 > 0:24:20circumstances patients who need cessation
0:24:20 > 0:24:25services may find it difficult to get the support they need.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29They may need more guidance and support on
0:24:29 > 0:24:32how to challenge the decision of CCGs if they are being discriminated
0:24:32 > 0:24:36against unfairly and in breach of national guidelines.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38Does the Minister not agree that everybody in
0:24:38 > 0:24:41this country must know that smoking and being overweight is bad for
0:24:41 > 0:24:47them?
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Does he not think individuals should be encouraged to take more
0:24:50 > 0:24:52responsibility for their health rather than less?
0:24:52 > 0:24:55Clearly there is a balance between the obligations of
0:24:55 > 0:24:59individuals to take responsibility for themselves and the obligation of
0:24:59 > 0:25:02society to take responsibility.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04Getting that balance right is what has
0:25:04 > 0:25:07characterised the success we
0:25:07 > 0:25:10have had in this country in reducing smoking and we hope it will have
0:25:10 > 0:25:11the same regarding obesity.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14He said the obesity strategy would be coming out soon.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16What is his interpretation of soon?
0:25:16 > 0:25:24Before long.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27Lord Prior causing some humour in the House of Lords.
0:25:27 > 0:25:28And that's it for this programme.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30Do join me for our next round-up.
0:25:30 > 0:25:37Until then, from me Keith Macdougall, goodbye.