0:00:17 > 0:00:19Hello and welcome to Tuesday In Parliament,
0:00:19 > 0:00:21the main news from Westminster.
0:00:21 > 0:00:23There is a sombre mood in the Commons as MPs debate
0:00:23 > 0:00:26the prospect for a workable deal in Northern Ireland.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29The solution to the current impasse is crucial to the economic
0:00:29 > 0:00:31and social, as well as political, welfare, of the children
0:00:31 > 0:00:37of Northern Ireland.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39The Scottish Parliament voted in favour of a second
0:00:39 > 0:00:40referendum on independence.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44The First Minister says Brexit has changed everything.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Much that we have come to take for granted over, certainly,
0:00:46 > 0:00:51most of my lifetime, the freedom just is one example
0:00:51 > 0:00:56to travel easily across Europe is now for negotiation,
0:00:56 > 0:01:06with outcomes that are at this point deeply uncertain.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08And Tobias Ellwood, who tried to save PC Keith Palmer's life,
0:01:08 > 0:01:10responds to the many tributes he's received.
0:01:10 > 0:01:16Can I make it clear that I was one of many that stepped forward on that
0:01:16 > 0:01:18dark day and our thoughts and prayers remain with those
0:01:18 > 0:01:21families and friends of the victims, including our own PC Keith Palmer.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23But first, elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly
0:01:23 > 0:01:25were held at the start of the month.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28The idea was for the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Fein to form
0:01:28 > 0:01:29a governing coalition.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32But the talks failed to produce a deal by Monday's deadline.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34The Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire, said
0:01:34 > 0:01:39it was a source of deep disappointment and regret.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Following the passing of yesterday's legal deadline,
0:01:41 > 0:01:43in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland has no
0:01:43 > 0:01:48devolved administration.
0:01:48 > 0:01:54This also means that other elements of the Belfast agreement,
0:01:54 > 0:02:00including the North-South bodies cannot operate properly.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03The consequences of all of this are potentially extremely serious.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06And the most immediate is that we're rapidly approaching the point
0:02:06 > 0:02:09at which Northern Ireland will not have an agreed budget.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12From tomorrow, a civil servant, the Department
0:02:12 > 0:02:16of Finance Permanent Secretary, will exercise powers
0:02:16 > 0:02:18that allocate cash to Northern Ireland departments.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22But let me be very clear, the situation is not sustainable,
0:02:22 > 0:02:25and beyond a short period of time, will have an impact
0:02:25 > 0:02:28on public services.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31What we're talking about here is the health service,
0:02:31 > 0:02:32schools, voluntary groups, services for the most
0:02:32 > 0:02:40vulnerable in society.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43This isn't what people voted for on the 2nd of March.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46He said he was hopeful of a positive outcome from the talks.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49If these talks are successful, it would be my intention, quickly,
0:02:49 > 0:02:53to bring forward legislation after the Easter recess,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57to allow an executive to be formed, avoiding a second assembly election,
0:02:57 > 0:03:03for which I detect little public appetite.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Brexit negotiations in Northern Ireland are the most
0:03:05 > 0:03:09sensitive in all parts of the United Kingdom.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13Michel Barnier, the European Commission's lead negotiator,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16has identified the implications for the peace process as one
0:03:16 > 0:03:21of the three priorities for him in entering these negotiations.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23And we don't even have properly elected spokespeople attending
0:03:23 > 0:03:27the talks under the GMC.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30And in the background to all this is the worry that any vacuum
0:03:30 > 0:03:33could be filled by those for whom the bullet
0:03:33 > 0:03:36is preferred to the ballot box.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39The parties on the ground need to take a long hard look
0:03:39 > 0:03:42at themselves and stop saying, this is what we want,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45no matter how legitimate they believe those demands to be,
0:03:45 > 0:03:51and start saying, what can we give, to move forward.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56It's not easy but it's the only chance we have to resolve this.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59There appears to be a presumption against having another election
0:03:59 > 0:04:01but that would seem to be where this is headed.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04What preparations is he making for that election?
0:04:04 > 0:04:07Considering too that the election is going to come in the middle
0:04:07 > 0:04:11of Brexit's early negotiations, can you tell us what measures
0:04:11 > 0:04:13he is discussing that will allow Northern Ireland's politicians
0:04:13 > 0:04:17to play a proper part in those negotiations?
0:04:17 > 0:04:19And has he discussed with the Prime Minister the possibility
0:04:19 > 0:04:21of delaying the Article 50 trigger?
0:04:21 > 0:04:25Although, given the way that Scotland has been
0:04:25 > 0:04:27treated on Article 50, I'd advise against anyone
0:04:27 > 0:04:30holding their breath on that.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32Yesterday, the Democratic Unionist Party was at Stormont, ready,
0:04:32 > 0:04:34willing, along with other parties, to form a Government
0:04:35 > 0:04:38and set up the executive.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40Neither during the election, nor previously, nor now,
0:04:40 > 0:04:44have we set preconditions or set down red lines.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48We worked in the executive previously, up until November,
0:04:48 > 0:04:51and are determined to continue to try to make devolution work
0:04:51 > 0:04:53in Northern Ireland.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Because we need a budget and we need functioning devolution.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58When Sinn Fein walked away and collapsed the executive
0:04:58 > 0:05:01in January, they left us without that budget
0:05:01 > 0:05:04and without a functioning executive at a very challenging time.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08They did the same yesterday.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Because of its bloody recent history, I think Northern Ireland
0:05:11 > 0:05:21has earned the absolute right to have a decent future.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Would my right honourable friend agree with me that a solution
0:05:24 > 0:05:26to the current impasse is crucial to the economic and social,
0:05:26 > 0:05:30as well as political welfare, of the children of Northern Ireland?
0:05:30 > 0:05:35Most, if not all of whom, have never known the dark
0:05:35 > 0:05:42days of the third half of the 20th century.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46Yes, I do, in terms of that positive outcome, but I think we should be
0:05:46 > 0:05:48looking for for young people growing up in Northern Ireland.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53That's what Government should be delivering on,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55fulfilling their hopes, dreams and aspirations.
0:05:55 > 0:05:56We have seen increases in employment, increases
0:05:56 > 0:05:59in prosperity in Northern Ireland, and I think that is at the heart
0:05:59 > 0:06:01of what everyone would want to see continue.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04To the Scottish Parliament now, when the debate on a second
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Independence Referendum was concluded.
0:06:07 > 0:06:16A vote had been scheduled for last Wednesday afternoon.
0:06:16 > 0:06:17But proceedings in the Scottish Parliament
0:06:17 > 0:06:20were suspended in the wake of the Westminster terror attack.
0:06:20 > 0:06:21Resuming the debate, the Scottish First Minister,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24Nicola Sturgeon, harked back to the events of last week.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27Last week this debate came to a halt in the worst of circumstances.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29Almost one week on, our thoughts remain with those affected
0:06:29 > 0:06:30by the London atrocity.
0:06:30 > 0:06:35It is worth reflecting today on how we all felt last week.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38In our shock and sadness, we were reminded of our common
0:06:38 > 0:06:42humanity and the core values that unite us.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45And we came together to proclaim our commitment to that
0:06:45 > 0:06:50most cherished principle of all - democracy.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Today's debate - at its heart - is about democracy.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55It is about the right of people in Scotland
0:06:55 > 0:06:58to choose our own future.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00And she said the debate didn't need to be divisive.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02Let us recognise and accept that we are all sincere
0:07:02 > 0:07:06in the opinions we hold.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Let us always remind ourselves that the person on the other side
0:07:09 > 0:07:12of the debate is not an enemy - simply someone with a different
0:07:12 > 0:07:15and valid point of view.
0:07:15 > 0:07:20None of us come to this debate with anything other than the best
0:07:20 > 0:07:23of intentions and motivations. We all want the best for Scotland.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25She said that when Article 50 was triggered, change
0:07:25 > 0:07:27for Scotland was inevitable.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30The change will be significant and profound.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33It is change that will impact on our economy -
0:07:33 > 0:07:36not just in the here and now but for the long term.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Indeed it was the UK Treasury - ahead of the referendum last year -
0:07:39 > 0:07:44that said Brexit would make the UK 'permanently poorer'.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47There will be an impact on trade, investment and living standards,
0:07:47 > 0:07:52and on the very nature of the society we live in.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57Much that we have taken for granted over, certainly
0:07:57 > 0:08:00most of my lifetime - the freedom to travel easily
0:08:00 > 0:08:03across Europe, for example, is now up for negotiation,
0:08:03 > 0:08:09with outcomes that are at this point deeply uncertain.
0:08:09 > 0:08:19If this debate has so far served one purpose, it has been tissue by most
0:08:23 > 0:08:25If this debate has so far served one purpose, it has
0:08:25 > 0:08:26been to show why most
0:08:26 > 0:08:29people in Scotland don't want the Government and this
0:08:29 > 0:08:31Parliament to be sidetracked by the division and rancour of yet
0:08:31 > 0:08:32another referendum campaign.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35Despite some honourable speeches from all sides of the Chamber,
0:08:35 > 0:08:36this Parliament last week added precisely nothing to
0:08:36 > 0:08:38the sum of human knowledge on Scottish independence.
0:08:39 > 0:08:39LAUGHTER.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43The First Minister says she wants the UK could to get a good Brexit
0:08:43 > 0:08:46deal but no matter how good it is, she still wants to push
0:08:46 > 0:08:47for independence anyway.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49Whereas our view and the UK Government's view remains this,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52at a time of enormous uncertainty, where it is only three years
0:08:52 > 0:08:55since the last vote, when we were told it would be once
0:08:55 > 0:08:58in a generation, that the decision of the Scottish people would be
0:08:58 > 0:08:59respected by both sides.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01There would be no rerun without there being overwhelming
0:09:01 > 0:09:03change in public opinion, and that the people in Scotland
0:09:03 > 0:09:06have the right to see the Brexit process play out,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09they need to see it operating, to see it working in practice
0:09:09 > 0:09:11and that, at this moment, we should be pulling
0:09:11 > 0:09:12together, not hanging apart.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15I welcomed the First Minister's remarks about the opportunity we had
0:09:15 > 0:09:17to have this debate and discuss it with civility and decency.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20And can I urge Ruth Davidson to reconsider her approach
0:09:20 > 0:09:22when we have a chance to reset this debate?
0:09:22 > 0:09:26APPLAUSE.
0:09:26 > 0:09:30Because last week, we came together to remember those
0:09:30 > 0:09:34who lost their lives or were injured in the Westminster terror attack,
0:09:34 > 0:09:38we united in our condemnation of a barbaric act and reaffirmed our
0:09:38 > 0:09:40commitment to the values of tolerance and integration,
0:09:40 > 0:09:41freedom and solidarity.
0:09:41 > 0:09:47She said the Conservative Party had caused a lot of division.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52That set Scotland against England in the General Election
0:09:52 > 0:09:59and whose reckless Brexit gamble brought us to this point,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02where leaving the EU just provide the SNP with the latest excuse
0:10:02 > 0:10:04it was looking for to push for another referendum.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07So, some humility from the Tories and a genuine desire to properly
0:10:07 > 0:10:08engage with this place wouldn't go amiss.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11After a few hours of debate, members of the Scottish Parliament
0:10:11 > 0:10:14voted by 69 to 59 in favour of the SNP motion.
0:10:14 > 0:10:15The motion authorises the Scottish Government to seek
0:10:15 > 0:10:19permission for a referendum from the UK Government.
0:10:19 > 0:10:24Theresa May has previously said, however, that now is not the time.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27Back to Westminster now, where Labour has secured an
0:10:27 > 0:10:30emergency debate on Government plans to introduce restrictions on who can
0:10:30 > 0:10:34claim the disability benefit personal independence payments.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36The House of Lords has agreed a motion,
0:10:36 > 0:10:38calling on ministers to reconsider the changes.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41The Shadow Pensions Secretary, Debbie Abrahams,
0:10:41 > 0:10:44complained there had been no debate in the Commons.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I seek leave to propose the House should debate a
0:10:46 > 0:10:49specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration,
0:10:49 > 0:10:54namely changes to Personal Independence Payment regulations.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56As you are aware, Mr Speaker, on the 23rd of February,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59the Government introduced new regulations to change
0:10:59 > 0:11:03the way disabled people or people with a chronic mental health
0:11:03 > 0:11:05condition, would be assessed for eligibility to personal
0:11:05 > 0:11:09independence payments.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12The Government's own analysis estimates the change will
0:11:12 > 0:11:14affect more than 160,000 people, the majority of whom have
0:11:14 > 0:11:17mental health conditions, who will not be able to
0:11:17 > 0:11:22access the full support, they would have been
0:11:22 > 0:11:24entitled to under the tribunal's ruling.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27An effective cut of ?3.7 billion.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29These regulations were laid down without any
0:11:29 > 0:11:33consultation with the Social Security Advisory Committee and
0:11:33 > 0:11:36despite repeated efforts, without any debate in this Chamber.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41I am satisfied that the matters raised by
0:11:41 > 0:11:44the honourable member is proper to be discussed, understanding order
0:11:44 > 0:11:45number 24.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Has the honourable member leave of the House?
0:11:48 > 0:11:54ALL: Aye!
0:11:54 > 0:11:58The honourable member has obtained the leave of the House.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00I am most grateful to honourable members for their voluntary
0:12:00 > 0:12:01stand-up.
0:12:01 > 0:12:09However, it was in fact superfluous. LAUGHTER.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11Required only in the event of indications of opposition.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15Nevertheless, the position is extremely clear, the debate will be
0:12:15 > 0:12:18held tomorrow, Wednesday 29th of March, as the first item of public
0:12:18 > 0:12:22business.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Voters in Manchester Gorton will elect a new MP on
0:12:25 > 0:12:27Thursday the 4th of May, following the death
0:12:27 > 0:12:30of Sir Gerald Kaufman.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Sir Gerald was the longest serving member of the Commons or Father of
0:12:34 > 0:12:35the House.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37The Labour Chief Whip, Nick Brown, moved the writ for
0:12:37 > 0:12:40the by-election at the start of the day's business.
0:12:40 > 0:12:45I beg to move that Mr Speaker do issue his warrant for
0:12:45 > 0:12:49the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new writ
0:12:49 > 0:12:53for the electing of a member to serve in this present
0:12:53 > 0:12:59Parliament for the borough constituency of Manchester Gorton,
0:12:59 > 0:13:01in the room of the Right Honourable Sir Gerald Bernard Kaufmann,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03deceased.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Nick Brown starting the process for a by-election in
0:13:06 > 0:13:12Manchester Gorton.
0:13:14 > 0:13:19You're watching Tuesday in Parliament with me Christina Cooper.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21The Foreign Office minister, Tobias Ellwood, has received
0:13:21 > 0:13:23widespread tributes for coming to the aid
0:13:23 > 0:13:25of PC Keith Palmer, who was
0:13:25 > 0:13:29killed in the terror attack at Westminster last week.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31He was among several people who rushed to attend
0:13:31 > 0:13:33to PC Palmer after the attack.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36He said he was heartbroken that PC Palmer died.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38This session of Foreign Office Question Time was the
0:13:38 > 0:13:41first occasion since the attack on which Tobias
0:13:41 > 0:13:42Ellwood has appeared on
0:13:42 > 0:13:44the frontbench.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, Emily Thornbury, took the
0:13:46 > 0:13:50opportunity to praise his actions.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52May I start by paying tribute to the minister,
0:13:52 > 0:13:54the honourable member for
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Bournemouth East, for his extraordinary courage last week.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00As PC Palmer's family said this weekend to the minister
0:14:00 > 0:14:03and to others who rushed to help, there was nothing more you could
0:14:03 > 0:14:04have done.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07You did your best and we are just grateful that he was not
0:14:07 > 0:14:08alone.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11I'm very grateful for her kind remarks.
0:14:11 > 0:14:21I make it clear that I was one of many that stepped forward
0:14:31 > 0:14:34I want to pay my own tribute, if I can, to my right honourable
0:14:34 > 0:14:36friend and ministerial colleague, the member for Bournemouth east,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39and of course, also to all those innocents who lost their lives
0:14:39 > 0:14:40or were injured last week.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Over the centuries, many people has tried to attack this Parliament
0:14:43 > 0:14:46and none has shaken our faith in our values of freedom and
0:14:46 > 0:14:48democracy which inform our policies.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52And talking of policies, the Foreign Secretary was questioned
0:14:52 > 0:14:57over claims that the British intelligence gathering centre,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00GCHQ ,carried out surveillance on Donald Trump during the US
0:15:00 > 0:15:01presidential election campaign.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04Boris Johnson called the allegations absurd and ridiculous and insisted
0:15:04 > 0:15:06they would not undermine the relationship between the UK
0:15:06 > 0:15:11and US intelligence agencies.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13What damage, Mr Speaker, is done by fantastical
0:15:13 > 0:15:18and ridiculous outbursts like those of President Trump levelled at GCHQ?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21And can the Foreign Secretary assure this House that the invaluable
0:15:21 > 0:15:26intelligence relationship between us and the United States is not
0:15:26 > 0:15:31compromised by the current incumbent of the White House?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35The damage done by such remarks can be likened to that of a gnat
0:15:35 > 0:15:41against a rhinoceros or an elephant.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44It is not something that will make any difference
0:15:44 > 0:15:47to a fundamental relationship that, as I say, is of great
0:15:47 > 0:15:50international importance.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53As for the assertion that there was some sort
0:15:53 > 0:15:58of collusion by GCHQ to bug the presidential candidate,
0:15:58 > 0:16:04I think that has been accurately described as absurd and ridiculous.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06THE SPEAKER: Keith Simpson.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10Can I just bring the Foreign Secretary down to earth.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15The core element of the Anglo-American relationship is based
0:16:15 > 0:16:19upon Five Eyes and intelligence.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24President Trump's allegation, repeated from Fox News,
0:16:24 > 0:16:28was not a gnat at a rhinoceros.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31It was deeply damaging and I would be grateful
0:16:31 > 0:16:35if the Foreign Secretary would tell the House exactly what comments
0:16:35 > 0:16:38he made to refute that with the president or senior members
0:16:38 > 0:16:41of the White House?
0:16:41 > 0:16:45I must respectfully disagree with my honourable friend's
0:16:45 > 0:16:47characterisation of the episode.
0:16:47 > 0:16:53I believe it has certainly done no lasting damage to our relationship,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56certainly not to the special relationship, and not
0:16:56 > 0:16:59to intelligence sharing, which will carry on between our
0:16:59 > 0:17:03countries and as I say, a relationship that is of huge value
0:17:03 > 0:17:08to the security of the West.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11As for the allegations themselves, let me repeat, they are utterly
0:17:11 > 0:17:13ridiculous and should be ignored.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16Now as the Government was poised to trigger talks
0:17:16 > 0:17:19on the UK's exit from the EU, several Brexit-backing MPs
0:17:19 > 0:17:23were reported to have politely walked out of a private meeting
0:17:23 > 0:17:25of the Commons Brexit committee.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Those MPs are said to have refused to back a proposed report,
0:17:29 > 0:17:31because it was too gloomy.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33Following the walkout this morning by members
0:17:33 > 0:17:36of the Brexit Select Committee, does he agree with me that
0:17:36 > 0:17:40far from being gloomy, we should agree with Marcelle Lamme
0:17:40 > 0:17:44and Wolfgang Shauble that it would be more damaging to Europe
0:17:44 > 0:17:49than to the UK if there wasn't a success made out of Brexit?
0:17:49 > 0:17:52May I congratulate my right honourable friend on the spirit
0:17:52 > 0:17:55he has taken, which is very much the spirit the Prime Minister is
0:17:55 > 0:17:57going to adopt in the negotiations.
0:17:57 > 0:17:58I believe she'll be absolutely vindicated,
0:17:58 > 0:18:00because I think our friends and partners on the other
0:18:00 > 0:18:02side of the Channel understand exactly that.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05I'm worried about the Foreign Secretary as to whether he's now
0:18:05 > 0:18:08excluded from Cabinet decision making, as to when he told
0:18:08 > 0:18:12Robert Peston, a week past Sunday, that no deal from Brexit would be
0:18:12 > 0:18:16totally OK, while his Cabinet colleague was simultaneously telling
0:18:16 > 0:18:19another station it would be really bad for Britain in Europe.
0:18:19 > 0:18:26What estimates, what forecasts, official, has he seen or any,
0:18:26 > 0:18:29which led him to believe and to say to Robert Peston that no deal
0:18:30 > 0:18:34from Brexit would be perfectly OK?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36I think that the right honourable gentleman
0:18:36 > 0:18:39will recognise the Prime Minister is going into these negotiations
0:18:39 > 0:18:44in a spirit of optimism and positivity that I think
0:18:44 > 0:18:47he could learn a little bit from.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49I've absolutely no doubt that there will be a great
0:18:49 > 0:18:52deal for this country, because a great deal for this
0:18:52 > 0:18:56country is what is finally in the interests of the rest
0:18:56 > 0:18:59of our friends and partners on the other side of the Channel,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02who have a huge amount to gain.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Now the head of a recruitment agency has accused the tax authorities
0:19:05 > 0:19:09of failing to crack down on scams using his industry to exploit
0:19:09 > 0:19:13staff and avoid tax, even when they're told about them.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17Adrian Gregory of the Extraman Agency in West London was giving
0:19:17 > 0:19:19evidence to the Business Committee, which is investigating
0:19:19 > 0:19:22employment practices.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24The chair, Ian Wright, read out a statement
0:19:24 > 0:19:26Mr Gregory had submitted.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28...suggest that my particular part of recruitment industry,
0:19:28 > 0:19:31that dealing with unskilled industrial staff currently
0:19:31 > 0:19:34operates with little regard for the law, and none whatever
0:19:34 > 0:19:37for any ethical considerations.
0:19:37 > 0:19:43A pernicious cocktail of inadequate, impractical and muddled legislation,
0:19:43 > 0:19:46combined with a complete disregard for the rights and welfare
0:19:46 > 0:19:49of the very people, the temporary staff,
0:19:49 > 0:19:53who earn agencies their money, has led to mass exploitation coupled
0:19:53 > 0:19:55with huge tax avoidance.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58That's an astonishing statement.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Adrian Gregory explained that rival agencies had developed scams
0:20:01 > 0:20:03to avoid paying staff.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06You have to be available for work at all times.
0:20:06 > 0:20:11So the agency had a system whereby you could get a text at 2am saying
0:20:11 > 0:20:13we have work available.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16You would be expected to get up and say yes,
0:20:16 > 0:20:18I'm available and in theory, go to work.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21Obviously, it was evident there was no work actually available.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24They had to keep giving the invitations to work just
0:20:24 > 0:20:28so that they could say to the temporary worker, we didn't
0:20:28 > 0:20:31pay you between assignments because you didn't respond
0:20:31 > 0:20:35to our text at 2am on Saturday morning offering you work, therefore
0:20:35 > 0:20:37you're in breach of contract.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41They even had a belt and braces clause whereby if you did reply
0:20:41 > 0:20:43to every single text, you got during the course
0:20:43 > 0:20:46of the week, they would offer you six hours cleaning in Blackpool,
0:20:46 > 0:20:51which was 50 miles away and take two buses and two trains to get
0:20:51 > 0:20:56to and therefore you'd spend more money than you would earn.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59He said Her Majesty's Revenue Customs was a standing joke among
0:20:59 > 0:21:02employment agencies because it kept allowing the biggest
0:21:02 > 0:21:04culprits off the hook.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08I was going to say, it shouldn't be underestimated the fact
0:21:08 > 0:21:13that HMRC has a very, very culpable role in
0:21:13 > 0:21:17allowing the agency world to develop as it has.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21It does absolutely nothing, or nothing visible, to curtail
0:21:21 > 0:21:26the use of the most outlandish schemes that man has ever devised.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30Also giving evidence was Jennifer Hardy from
0:21:30 > 0:21:32the recruitment agency Transline.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35There was investigations by BuzzFeed and by BBC
0:21:35 > 0:21:39about annualised contracts, about flexing, about workers
0:21:39 > 0:21:44possibly being disciplined if they couldn't commit
0:21:44 > 0:21:47to short-term announcements on work.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Has that changed?
0:21:50 > 0:21:54The ASOS warehouse, I believe, is a very -
0:21:54 > 0:21:58is a good example of a warehouse, in my opinion.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01It's not somewhere that I frequent that often,
0:22:01 > 0:22:05so I would need to see - I would need to gain
0:22:05 > 0:22:09evidence from someone who actually is frontline.
0:22:09 > 0:22:15However, yes, I do think that if those instances did happen,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18then I do believe that process is better than having engaged
0:22:18 > 0:22:19with the union as I said.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21So they are making very positive steps in that direction.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23So things have changed?
0:22:23 > 0:22:27I'm not saying that there was anything, from what I know of,
0:22:27 > 0:22:29yes, I would say if there was something there found in
0:22:29 > 0:22:31the first place, yes, it's changed.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34I'm not in a position to answer that question really.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38But that's a bit curious.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40You're the representative of Transline here who
0:22:40 > 0:22:41provide agency workers.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44I would expect you to have a flavour ever was going on there.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47That would be a question, I do believe my team on the ground
0:22:47 > 0:22:51work very closely with the ASOS team on a day-to-day basis and high
0:22:51 > 0:23:00level within - ASOS - our customer isn't actually ASOS.
0:23:00 > 0:23:01You have been before us before, Jennifer.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05You sort of know what we're like.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Didn't you do any checks with your representatives at ASOS
0:23:07 > 0:23:10to say what's happened since the summer?
0:23:10 > 0:23:12Of course.
0:23:12 > 0:23:13Can you tell us what they are.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15That's not something I would necessarily be party
0:23:15 > 0:23:18to on a day-to-day basis.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20We have an infrastructure, a operational team
0:23:20 > 0:23:21that deals with that.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24I don't think it's particularly - I'm happy to come back
0:23:24 > 0:23:25and answer that question.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27OK.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31I do find it astonishing that you didn't do the prep,
0:23:31 > 0:23:32the homework beforehand in respect of that.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36We end in the House of Lords, where a Labour peer was taken aback
0:23:36 > 0:23:38at the Government's reaction to her proposals to change the law
0:23:38 > 0:23:41on money held by letting agents.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43Lady Hater conducted a review into how best
0:23:43 > 0:23:45to protect people's money.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name
0:23:48 > 0:23:51in the order paper.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54My Lord's I thank the noble Baroness and noble Lord, Lord Palmer,
0:23:54 > 0:23:56for their time and commitment to the client money
0:23:56 > 0:23:59protection review.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02I'm pleased to announce that the Government intends to make
0:24:02 > 0:24:06client money protection mandatory in line with the recommendation
0:24:06 > 0:24:10of the review chaired by the noble Baroness and noble Lord Palmer.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12This will ensure that every agent is offering the same level
0:24:12 > 0:24:14of protection giving tenants and landlords the financial
0:24:14 > 0:24:21protection that they deserve.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24The Government, my Lords, will protect on how manneder
0:24:24 > 0:24:27to client money protection should be implemented and enforced.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29That's taken the wind out of my sail!
0:24:29 > 0:24:38LAUGHTER
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Will the noble Lord, the minister, accept my thanks.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43The House will recall that we put into the housing bill
0:24:43 > 0:24:48the reserve power to do this, but at that point the Government
0:24:48 > 0:24:50weren't quite convinced.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52We did the report along with the noble Lord, Lord Palmer,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55we made the recommendation, only published yesterday.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58So today's news is really good for tenants and for landlords,
0:24:58 > 0:25:01because it means that if any letting agent goes bust or makes off,
0:25:01 > 0:25:05their money is safe.
0:25:05 > 0:25:10So I hope he will accept my thanks.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13My Lords, I certainly will.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16If I may say, so that was a typically gracious response
0:25:16 > 0:25:18from the noble lady.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20It was a very well reasoned report and called on many,
0:25:20 > 0:25:23many people to give evidence.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25It was very strongly evidence based.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28As I say, we will be consulting on implementation and enforcement
0:25:28 > 0:25:31and I'm sure that we can talk about it in the meantime.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34The spirit of cooperation on display there in the House of Lords.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37An uplifting note on which to end Tuesday in Parliament.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40I'll be back at the same time tomorrow.
0:25:40 > 0:25:46Until then, from me, Christina Cooper, goodbye.