03/11/2015

:00:16. > :00:24.Good morning. A review of whether more formal tests should be taken in

:00:25. > :00:27.England. Some changes will be announced by Nicky Morgan today.

:00:28. > :00:32.Reaction from parents and teachers. Plus, how much do young adults

:00:33. > :00:36.understand about sexual consent? It can be your friends, people you

:00:37. > :00:41.trust. That is the main thing which I really think I've learnt because

:00:42. > :00:43.it's a worry that it's every day people who can end up doing what is

:00:44. > :00:58.classed as rape. And South African judges ask whether

:00:59. > :01:01.Oscar Pistorius should have been convicted of murder rather than

:01:02. > :01:14.manslaughter. We'll bring you the latest.

:01:15. > :01:18.Hello, welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News

:01:19. > :01:21.Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:01:22. > :01:26.A little later we'll hear about life for some

:01:27. > :01:29.of the people who've defected from North Korea to South Korea.

:01:30. > :01:31.And we'll discuss what the Government's new surveillance

:01:32. > :01:36.As always really keen to hear from you on all the subjects we're

:01:37. > :01:41.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:01:42. > :01:43.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever you

:01:44. > :02:03.Nicky Morgan will announce our website bbc.co.uk/Victoria.

:02:04. > :02:07.Nicky Morgan will announce recruit 1500 teachers to

:02:08. > :02:09.Nicky Morgan will announce introduced to under-achieving

:02:10. > :02:12.schools. Here is what she told Newsnight. Let me be clear.

:02:13. > :02:15.schools. Here is what she told absolutely no change. We want to

:02:16. > :02:18.know the progress students are making from the reception baseline

:02:19. > :02:22.test that we have introduced this year when they start primary school,

:02:23. > :02:25.all the way through to Key Stage two tests at the age of 11. We want to

:02:26. > :02:30.make sure that we are able to monitor that progress so the tests

:02:31. > :02:34.that children take at the age of seven, we are confident that they

:02:35. > :02:38.are identifying where children are making progress and where they are

:02:39. > :02:42.not. So anybody who has in the last 48-hours printed a story saying

:02:43. > :02:48.somehow there's some sort of change, they have been led on a merry dance.

:02:49. > :02:52.After another set of pledges, let's take a look at how many changes

:02:53. > :02:55.there have been over the last 20 years or so.

:02:56. > :02:58.So after another set of pledges from another Education Secretary,

:02:59. > :03:01.let's take a look back at just how many changes there have

:03:02. > :03:05.When the Labour Party swept to power at the 1997 General Election,

:03:06. > :03:08.one of their main mantras was "Education, Education,

:03:09. > :03:11.Education" and Tony Blair appointed David Blunkett to the top job.

:03:12. > :03:14.In 2000, he introduced the City Academies programme

:03:15. > :03:17.which created state schools free of local education authority control.

:03:18. > :03:21.Blunkett also abolished the Assisted Places Scheme

:03:22. > :03:25.which paid the independent schools fees of bright pupils whose parents

:03:26. > :03:30.In 2006 the Labour Education Secretary Alan Johnson announced

:03:31. > :03:33.that the school leaving age would be raised from 16 to 18.

:03:34. > :03:41.This was then bought in by the coalition Government in 2013.

:03:42. > :03:47.When Labour's Ed Balls took the job in 2007 he announced that

:03:48. > :03:51.a move broadly welcomed by teachers and parents.

:03:52. > :03:56.When the coalition Government came to

:03:57. > :03:58.power in 2010 one of Conservative's Michael Gove's first measures was to

:03:59. > :04:01.allow any existing state schools turn themselves into academies.

:04:02. > :04:04.He went onto to introduce a new national curriculum for both

:04:05. > :04:10.He reinstated authors like Charles Dickens and Jane Austen to

:04:11. > :04:13.reading lists, made it compulsory to study a foreign language up to

:04:14. > :04:15.the age of 16 and gave the league-tables a shake-up.

:04:16. > :04:18.Mr Gove also wanted a longer school day and shorter holidays

:04:19. > :04:21.but these plans were firmly rejected and caused backlash from teachers.

:04:22. > :04:24.Enter the current Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan.

:04:25. > :04:27.Not too much has changed policy wise but there's been a big change

:04:28. > :04:33.She appeared to criticize Mr Gove's way of working saying she wanted

:04:34. > :04:36.a partnership with teachers not a war of ideas.

:04:37. > :04:39.In January this year she dropped international GCSE's

:04:40. > :04:43.And in February, she ended the policy of giving universities

:04:44. > :04:54.Let's talk now to parents Janey Holliday and Arnie Krogh and

:04:55. > :04:57.also here is Kathryn James, Deputy General Secretary of the National

:04:58. > :05:09.And from their schools, Olivia Bradford is a Primary School

:05:10. > :05:15.What Nicky Morgan is going to annoyance is a consultation at

:05:16. > :05:18.whether tests at the age of seven should be marked externally and made

:05:19. > :05:22.much more formal and that most teenagers will be expected to study

:05:23. > :05:26.maths, English, science, a foreign language and history or geography to

:05:27. > :05:32.GCSE. What do you think of the ideas? Let's start with the primary

:05:33. > :05:36.tests. What I'm most disappointed about is that this is yet again

:05:37. > :05:41.Tinkering around the edges. We have another test being looked at, we

:05:42. > :05:45.have had a baseline check introduced, a phonics check

:05:46. > :05:48.introduced, spelling, punctuation and grammar introduced, different

:05:49. > :05:52.stages at Key Stage two and we have not had a coherent approach or

:05:53. > :05:56.coherent look at primary assessment and we really need to get there.

:05:57. > :06:00.What would be the big deal with tests that seven-year-olds are

:06:01. > :06:06.already doing being marked by external assessors? I think what we

:06:07. > :06:12.don't recognise is the fact that actually the tests have strong

:06:13. > :06:15.limitations, they cause anxiety anyway and some children don't

:06:16. > :06:20.perform well in tests. What we want to do is see the professionals, the

:06:21. > :06:25.teachers here, who actually understand that what the children

:06:26. > :06:30.are going through, we want to see them. All teachers are assessing

:06:31. > :06:35.every minute of the day that they are teaching and they use tests

:06:36. > :06:40.happily within their lessons. Formalising them puts a different

:06:41. > :06:47.structure completely on the way that they use them, raising the levels of

:06:48. > :06:50.anxiety. We want to value the professional judgment and we ought

:06:51. > :06:56.to be using that. What Nicky Morgan says is, if you

:06:57. > :07:00.don't track primary schools properly, then if a child slips

:07:01. > :07:04.through the net, it's really, really difficult for that child to then

:07:05. > :07:09.catch up. As a parent, do you accept that? I just want my children and in

:07:10. > :07:14.fact all children for that matter to be happy and relaxed at school, to

:07:15. > :07:17.focus on their strengths, not weaknesses, have good self-esteem

:07:18. > :07:21.and to not be labelled by any tests or standards or levels. I want my

:07:22. > :07:27.children to be relaxed and their teachers to do a really, really good

:07:28. > :07:31.job. So that's my opinion on that. Happy children are happy students.

:07:32. > :07:34.When you are happy, you will learn your subjects much more easily. Is

:07:35. > :07:37.there any evidence that seven-year-olds are unhappy because

:07:38. > :07:41.of this short, not very rigorous test that they take at seven when

:07:42. > :07:47.they, most of the time, won't even know they are taking a test? 100%.

:07:48. > :07:51.As well as being a parent to seven-year-old twins, I'm a

:07:52. > :07:56.lifestyle coach and I coach mums. The pressure that mums feel, the

:07:57. > :08:01.conversations that go on in the playground, conversations between

:08:02. > :08:04.teachers, the amount of primary school tutoring is on the increase

:08:05. > :08:10.all over the country. That's down to the parents though? Bhueptly, but

:08:11. > :08:16.children are aware of the tests and the pressures they are under --

:08:17. > :08:19.absolutely. I coach parents who've got stressed, anxious five, six and

:08:20. > :08:25.seven-year-olds and I just think it's absolutely awful. Education

:08:26. > :08:29.should be a thrill. Olivia, as a primary schoolteacher, do you

:08:30. > :08:35.recognise this picture that our two parents here are describing? I think

:08:36. > :08:39.I sympathise with it, I agree that that definitely can happen. I taught

:08:40. > :08:46.year two, which is the year they are talking about, last year and I'm

:08:47. > :08:50.teaching year six now. The final year of primary school? Exactly,

:08:51. > :08:54.yes. My feeling is that, I think a lot of the stress does get put on to

:08:55. > :08:58.children by teachers and parents. For example, my children last year

:08:59. > :09:02.did not know they took their SATs, they sat down and did a paper that

:09:03. > :09:06.day and off it went, we didn't tell the parents when the SATs were

:09:07. > :09:09.happening. And that is a good thing? We just did it. So what you are

:09:10. > :09:13.saying, from a teacher's point of view, it can be done, there doesn't

:09:14. > :09:16.need to be pressure because you don't describe it as a test, don't

:09:17. > :09:20.talk about it particularly, don't let the parents know and the child

:09:21. > :09:24.turns up that day and they are just doing something lightly different

:09:25. > :09:29.from a normal lesson? As someone said earlier, of course as teachers

:09:30. > :09:32.we assess all the time so they will have all experienced some kind of

:09:33. > :09:37.test at some point so we say, we are going to do this today and we sit

:09:38. > :09:41.down and do it. They'll all have done maths and spelling and grammar

:09:42. > :09:44.before so it's not something we throw on them and they are going to

:09:45. > :09:49.think, I've never done this before in my life. Equally, it's not

:09:50. > :09:53.something we make a huge deal of. I totally accept there are a lot of

:09:54. > :09:57.places where that does happen but that is 100% down to teachers and

:09:58. > :10:02.parents putting that pressure on children, it doesn't need to happen.

:10:03. > :10:11.Teachers and parents have got a bit to chew over here, it's their fault?

:10:12. > :10:16.I think Olivia is right that between teachers and parents, that is where

:10:17. > :10:19.it is. If we start about a formal externally marked assessment or test

:10:20. > :10:24.rather, that changes the whole structure and it does change the

:10:25. > :10:29.baseline and that I think will encourage more stress because what

:10:30. > :10:33.we are doing is actually testing children and putting seven-year-olds

:10:34. > :10:40.through a test to hold the schools accountable. That can't be rightment

:10:41. > :10:44.Or as Nicky might say, to see what progress is made with children

:10:45. > :10:50.between the age of reception and seven. Absolutely. You need to look

:10:51. > :10:55.at the progress they are making and I think the biggest disappointment

:10:56. > :10:59.is the fact that what we are not doing is looking at the way the

:11:00. > :11:05.assessment system building together. You have got older children. I want

:11:06. > :11:14.to ask you about the core subjects that I think the education second

:11:15. > :11:17.secretary is looking at. 90% taking history, geography, English, maths,

:11:18. > :11:22.science. Is that a good idea or not, 60% do them currently? I think core

:11:23. > :11:26.sub jokes do need to be caught. At the same time, we must remember not

:11:27. > :11:29.all children are academic and not all will do well in maths and

:11:30. > :11:36.sciences. But they are still going to have the take them? Yes, but we

:11:37. > :11:41.shouldn't take away the Mickey Mouse courses because maybe going to get

:11:42. > :11:50.the tops will Can you think of one that is Mickey Mouse? I can't. My

:11:51. > :11:57.issue with the EBacc is the fact that what we are doing is penalising

:11:58. > :12:04.children who're on a very strong academic stream, but actually may

:12:05. > :12:09.not, for example, be doing history or geography or they may be doing

:12:10. > :12:15.RE, music, they could be doing astrophysics for goodness sake, but

:12:16. > :12:17.actually if they don't fit into "this" prescribed structure, the

:12:18. > :12:20.pupils and schools will be penalised.

:12:21. > :12:23.Is that what you think? Yes. You have got the progress eight measure,

:12:24. > :12:29.use that. If only we had time to go into that!

:12:30. > :12:33.Maybe another day but thank you very much. Olivia, thank you very much to

:12:34. > :12:36.you as well from your primary school.

:12:37. > :12:40.The Prime Minister's under pressure to drop plans for a Commons vote

:12:41. > :12:43.on air strikes in Syria, after an influential committee

:12:44. > :12:49.of MPs rejected further military intervention, at the moment.

:12:50. > :12:54.Let's talk to our Political Correspondent Norman Smith at

:12:55. > :12:58.Westminster. What's happening here, what's changing, what's shifting? We

:12:59. > :13:03.have this report which is a real zinger of a report because the MPs

:13:04. > :13:11.on the Foreign Affairs Committee do not mince their words, they say

:13:12. > :13:18.bluntly that mill tar action by Britain in Syria wouldn't make much

:13:19. > :13:24.difference. -- military. They also warn if we did join in, that could

:13:25. > :13:29.add to the chaos on the ground. They question whether it would be even

:13:30. > :13:33.legal for Britain to join in and they suggest it could undermine the

:13:34. > :13:37.diplomatic clout if we were seen to be militarily involved. They also

:13:38. > :13:41.question as to whether the desire of Mr Cameron for military action is

:13:42. > :13:45.because he wants to be seen to be doing something, so their message is

:13:46. > :13:49.pretty clear. They do not believe we should be involved. Let me give you

:13:50. > :13:54.the conclusions of their report. They say, we believe there should be

:13:55. > :14:00.no extension of British military action in Syria unless there is a

:14:01. > :14:07.coherent international strategy that has a realistic chance of defeating

:14:08. > :14:11.Isil and ending the Civil War in Syria. A clear message to David

:14:12. > :14:15.Cameron, don't go there, forget it. This is a Conservative dominated

:14:16. > :14:19.committee don't forget so you would think naturally sympathetic to Mr

:14:20. > :14:23.Cameron. The chairman of the committee, Crispin Blunt, said it

:14:24. > :14:28.would be unfair to the military to ask them to get involved when there

:14:29. > :14:32.was no clear commit strategy. This is what he said. This is not about

:14:33. > :14:36.answering the instinct that something must be done because it's

:14:37. > :14:41.awful. This is about answering the question what needs to be done to

:14:42. > :14:45.achieve our objectives. We owe it to our military, only to employ them

:14:46. > :14:49.when there is a clear plan that is achievable. One report very

:14:50. > :14:53.obviously isn't going to change everything. But when you put it

:14:54. > :14:58.together with a lot of other thing going on at Westminster, you get the

:14:59. > :15:03.sense that the prospect of Britain getting involved in military action

:15:04. > :15:08.in Syria is now receding almost into never never land. One of the

:15:09. > :15:11.arguments from the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was that it

:15:12. > :15:15.arguments from the Defence Secretary ill logical that Britain was

:15:16. > :15:17.involved in bombing Isil in so-called Iraq but not in

:15:18. > :15:23.neighbouring Syria. so-called Iraq but not in

:15:24. > :15:25.stands doesn't it? Yes, there is no doubt that David

:15:26. > :15:34.stands doesn't it? Yes, there is no Fallon, the Foreign Secretary,

:15:35. > :15:35.stands doesn't it? Yes, there is no border and turning around, it just

:15:36. > :15:39.makes border and turning around, it just

:15:40. > :15:45.simply cannot win border and turning around, it just

:15:46. > :15:49.in Syria. Let me show you some of the front-pages which are worth

:15:50. > :15:55.looking at. The Times; Cameron backs down over plans to bomb Syria. The

:15:56. > :15:59.Guardian similarly, Cameron, UK won't bomb Syria. FT similar story.

:16:00. > :16:02.They are saying Downing Street's taken a formal decision to aBonn Don

:16:03. > :16:07.the idea of military strikes in Syria. Talking to folk at Number

:16:08. > :16:16.Ten, they say absolutely not true, we have not abandoned the plan.

:16:17. > :16:25.In a funny sort of way, both these stories are true. The political

:16:26. > :16:30.reality is there is no chance of Mr Cameron being able to win such a

:16:31. > :16:36.vote. There is no sign of masses of rebels rallying to the side of him.

:16:37. > :16:41.The Russian involvement has usually, the gated the argument. The

:16:42. > :16:46.sense is there is no appetite in Westminster to engage in military

:16:47. > :16:58.action. Realistically it is off the agenda. We will speak later to the

:16:59. > :16:59.Conservative MP who led the rebellion and a Syrian political

:17:00. > :17:02.activist. And what's life like

:17:03. > :17:05.for those who manage to escape Do teenagers really

:17:06. > :17:13.understand what sexual consent is? We'll be talking to a group

:17:14. > :17:15.of young people Seven year olds may once again have

:17:16. > :17:21.to sit national tests - as part of the Government's plans to improve

:17:22. > :17:25.school standards in England. The exams for Year Two pupils were

:17:26. > :17:28.scrapped when Labour was in power, but now the Education Secretary

:17:29. > :17:30.Nicky Morgan will consult on It's one of several measures she'll

:17:31. > :17:34.outline today including recruiting a pool of elite teachers to work

:17:35. > :17:52.in areas with low exam results. Teachers are assessing every minute

:17:53. > :17:55.of the day. They used tests within lessons. Formalising and puts a

:17:56. > :18:01.different structure completely on the way they are used. Levels of

:18:02. > :18:03.anxiety are increased and people are teaching for the test, which is what

:18:04. > :18:07.we want to do away with. The British government is coming

:18:08. > :18:10.under increased pressure to abandon plans to seek parliamentary approval

:18:11. > :18:13.to launch air strikes in Syria. The Foreign Affairs Committee of MPs

:18:14. > :18:15.has come out strongly against Downing Street has rejected several

:18:16. > :18:19.reports from newspapers saying he's failed to convince enough Labour MPs

:18:20. > :18:21.to support British bombing raids against Islamic State targets there,

:18:22. > :18:24.as well as in Iraq. A South African appeal court has

:18:25. > :18:26.begun considering whether Oscar Pistorius should have been

:18:27. > :18:28.convicted of murder - not manslaughter - for shooting his

:18:29. > :18:35.girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp in 2013. The athlete is currently under house

:18:36. > :18:37.arrest having served one year A murder conviction could see him

:18:38. > :18:46.sent back to prison for 15 years. The first nine bodies of the victims

:18:47. > :18:48.of Saturday's Russian plane crash Investigators are still trying to

:18:49. > :18:53.piece together what happened to the airliner carrying 224 people

:18:54. > :18:57.when it came down, Yesterday airline officials said

:18:58. > :19:01.an "external influence" Fog is continuing to cause travel

:19:02. > :19:17.disruption in parts of the UK The Met Office says it could affect

:19:18. > :19:21.parts of England and Wales Heathrow Airport cancelled

:19:22. > :19:23.129 flights yesterday. Other airports

:19:24. > :19:25.across the country were also facing Let's catch up with all the sport

:19:26. > :19:33.now. I am delighted to say we will have a

:19:34. > :19:46.world champion joining us at 10am. Max Whitlock is the

:19:47. > :19:49.1st British man to win the World Gym He beat teammate Louis Smith

:19:50. > :19:54.by a 10th of a point! His success reflected what

:19:55. > :20:15.a brilliant GB team performance it was. How did they

:20:16. > :20:17.become so successful? Cricket... Day 3 of the third and final

:20:18. > :20:20.Test betweem England amd Pakistan is under way. England were 306 all

:20:21. > :20:22.out 1st innings. A few moments ago, they were 3-0.

:20:23. > :20:46.Ben Stokes has a confirmed collar bone injury. He did bat and managed

:20:47. > :20:51.ten balls then was bowled out. Next, a rare insight into life

:20:52. > :20:55.for people who manage to escape the secretive state of North Korea,

:20:56. > :20:58.a country whose leader is accused of being a dictator, presiding over

:20:59. > :21:01.systematic human rights abuses and whose people are subject to

:21:02. > :21:03.strict controls and poverty. So perhaps it's no wonder then that

:21:04. > :21:08.over the last 60 years around 25,000 North Koreans have

:21:09. > :21:11.taken huge risk to defect to South We'll find out a little more about

:21:12. > :21:17.their new lives in just a minute but first, here's this guide to the life

:21:18. > :21:29.they're escaping in North Korea. To China, what happened to her there

:21:30. > :21:32.was in many ways much worse than Yeon-mi has written

:21:33. > :21:35.an autobiography called "In Order To Live", which she hopes will

:21:36. > :21:38.help people to understand what life is really like for the millions of

:21:39. > :21:42.people in North Korea and the danger We will speak to her in a moment,

:21:43. > :25:02.but first this report What is life like for those who

:25:03. > :25:13.managed to defect from North Korea to South Korea. They come in hope.

:25:14. > :25:20.In the capital of the South, North Korean defectors get married in a

:25:21. > :25:25.mass ceremony. They arrive with virtually nothing. The Government

:25:26. > :25:32.pays for a grand wedding for 100 defect to couples. He says, it has

:25:33. > :25:37.been a really hard journey to get here. Everything is unfamiliar. We

:25:38. > :25:43.are grateful our wedding is being paid for. But the honeymoon may not

:25:44. > :26:02.last long. Reality for defectors is tough. This is him Songiil second

:26:03. > :26:06.line of business. He is selling chicken pieces he hopes this is the

:26:07. > :26:15.1 that works. It has been a hard slog. When my earlier businesses

:26:16. > :26:22.failed, I tried to Gil myself three times. I kept remembering how I'm

:26:23. > :26:27.risked my life just to get here. South Korea is one of the most

:26:28. > :26:32.competitive countries in the world. People trying to get ahead of each

:26:33. > :26:35.other. The suicide rate is the highest in the developed world. The

:26:36. > :26:45.suicide rate for defectors is three times the national average. This

:26:46. > :26:49.woman is 45 years old and from North Korea. She defected to the South

:26:50. > :26:55.four years ago. Now she wants to go back. She says the materialism of

:26:56. > :27:01.the South is not as precious as back. She says the materialism of

:27:02. > :27:08.family. She wants to go back to the north, even if it means she starves.

:27:09. > :27:14.But there are successes. North Koreans who have made the dangerous

:27:15. > :27:20.journey south and succeeded. This North Korean defector makes burritos

:27:21. > :27:25.and profits in South Korea. She has enterprise written right through

:27:26. > :27:32.her. In an all she had never heard of this classic, Mexican dish. When

:27:33. > :27:37.she reached South Korea, she got the job selling kebabs, meet in a role,

:27:38. > :27:43.and thought Rice would suit Korean taste. She had invented a Korean

:27:44. > :27:50.style burrito and it sold like hot cakes. When I first arrived, the

:27:51. > :27:56.South seemed so different. It could have been in America. In order to

:27:57. > :28:03.succeed, I had to learn everything from scratch. This school for

:28:04. > :28:09.defectors addresses that need for a job. It is run by a church but the

:28:10. > :28:15.nonreligious message is, learn the skills that will make you employable

:28:16. > :28:18.in the capitalist South, where there is discrimination against North

:28:19. > :28:23.in the capitalist South, where there Koreans. Skills like making Coffey

:28:24. > :28:26.to get a job in a restaurant. Grand dreams do not pay

:28:27. > :28:34.to get a job in a restaurant. Grand philosophy, wages do. On South

:28:35. > :28:41.Korean TV, there is a show for defectors who tell their harrowing

:28:42. > :28:48.stories. The programme has changing attitudes towards North Koreans

:28:49. > :28:52.among South Koreans. We will be able to see the North Koreans as

:28:53. > :28:54.ordinary, like themselves. They have the same basic concerns and be

:28:55. > :28:58.relatable. That the same basic concerns and be

:28:59. > :28:59.Korean refugees arriving here and will help interaction between the

:29:00. > :29:12.north and south the future as well. Defecting from tyranny is not easy.

:29:13. > :29:19.It can also mean defecting from your friends and family. But still they

:29:20. > :29:22.come, 1400 last year. The pain of uncertainty and change to a

:29:23. > :29:27.different world does not put defectors.

:29:28. > :29:29.Should Oscar Pistorius have been convicted

:29:30. > :29:42.The former Labour Home Secretary, Jack Straw, has contradicted

:29:43. > :29:44.his party's leadership by telling this programme there's no need for

:29:45. > :30:02.There are huge safeguards about this. I know of no case where any

:30:03. > :30:07.Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary has abused the process. The process

:30:08. > :30:11.is so tight I think it would be impossible to abuse it. A Home

:30:12. > :30:16.Secretary cannot think, I want to put a tap on to this person's

:30:17. > :30:18.telephone. You can only do that if there is an application by law

:30:19. > :30:20.enforcement agency. Tomorrow,

:30:21. > :30:21.the Government's introducing the latest in a series of attempts

:30:22. > :30:25.to update the law to grant police and intelligence officers new powers

:30:26. > :30:27.to monitor suspects online. At the moment, those warrants are

:30:28. > :30:30.signed off by the Home or Foreign Secretary, but Labour and some

:30:31. > :30:32.Conservative backbenchers, want the What exactly are the changes and why

:30:33. > :30:45.are they needed? The Conservatives have been trying

:30:46. > :30:53.to reform the way the police and security services access

:30:54. > :30:55.communications data - that's on the internet,

:30:56. > :30:57.phones and messages since 2012. Then, though, they were

:30:58. > :30:59.in coalition with the Lib Dems, Under the original idea, telecoms

:31:00. > :31:03.and internet service providers like BT or Virgin would have been

:31:04. > :31:05.paid to log their customers' e-mails, internet use and other

:31:06. > :31:08.correspondence so it could be easily It was known as the Draft

:31:09. > :31:19.Communications Data Bill or the Here's what the then Lib Dem leader

:31:20. > :31:22.Nick Clegg said What people have dubbed

:31:23. > :31:27.the snooper's charter, I have to be clear with you, that

:31:28. > :31:29.will not happen. In other words,

:31:30. > :31:31.the idea that the government will pass a law that means there would be

:31:32. > :31:35.a record kept of every website you who you communicate with on social

:31:36. > :32:11.media sites, that will not happen. But as you know the Lib Dems aren't

:32:12. > :32:14.in power anymore, so there's no The Home Secretary, Theresa May,

:32:15. > :32:18.told BBC 1's Andrew Marr the current plans aren't the same

:32:19. > :32:31.as the ones she tried to introduce We won't give powers to go through

:32:32. > :32:34.people's history. That's not what the investigatory powers bill is

:32:35. > :32:35.about. What are the differences then?

:32:36. > :32:39.The new bill won't let police call up your browsing history page

:32:40. > :32:43.by page, but they will be able to find out which sites you visited.

:32:44. > :32:47.Type in this, for example, and they'd know you'd been to the

:32:48. > :32:55.It's thought the new law will say this data must be kept for a year.

:32:56. > :32:58.To find out more than that, police and spies would need a warrant.

:32:59. > :33:03.If judges aren't involved in awarding those warrants then

:33:04. > :33:06.Labour will fight the plans, as will some Conservatives.

:33:07. > :33:08.The security services say a change in the law is essential

:33:09. > :33:13.because advances in technology are allowing terrorists to communicate

:33:14. > :33:20.The head of MI5 Andrew Parker told the Today programme last month

:33:21. > :33:24.that it was becoming more difficult to obtain online information.

:33:25. > :33:32.We need to be able to do in the modern age what we have always done

:33:33. > :33:35.through our history in being able to find and stop people who threaten

:33:36. > :33:41.the UK and mean harm to the public. That means that we need to be able

:33:42. > :33:46.to monitor the communications of terrorists, spies and others, we

:33:47. > :33:49.need to be able to obtain data about their communications and other

:33:50. > :33:53.information about them, but through all this, I think the important

:33:54. > :33:59.thing to say is that we are focussed on the people who mean us harm, we

:34:00. > :34:03.are not about browsing through the private lives of the citizens of

:34:04. > :34:06.this country. We do not have population scale monitoring or

:34:07. > :34:12.anything like that. We are focussed on behalf of the public against

:34:13. > :34:16.those who mean us harm and the powers that the Government is

:34:17. > :34:20.considering and are being drafted now will be discussed and decided by

:34:21. > :34:26.Parliament, not by me, will be powers that are about doing that in

:34:27. > :34:30.the modern age. For me, perhaps the most important thing is that there

:34:31. > :34:32.is clear and transparent explanations of the sort of things

:34:33. > :34:33.we do. The Government says the changes are

:34:34. > :34:37.needed because terrorists and criminals are communicating more and

:34:38. > :34:40.more online rather than on phones. Earlier, I spoke to the former

:34:41. > :34:43.Labour Home Secretary, Jack Straw, who was responsible for the

:34:44. > :34:47.Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, the law that currently dictates

:34:48. > :34:50.how the police and security services He told me why he thought

:34:51. > :35:01.the new legislation was needed. Yes, I do. The reason for this is

:35:02. > :35:08.that the current legislation, which I introduced 16 years ago, was

:35:09. > :35:12.analogue legislation, this was in 1999 when the Internet was

:35:13. > :35:17.absolutely in its infancy and indeed had only been established a couple

:35:18. > :35:22.of years before. Nobody had interactive computers in their

:35:23. > :35:27.pockets in the way they do now. We did our best to modernise the

:35:28. > :35:34.legislation and to make it durable for the future. 15, 16, 17 years

:35:35. > :35:38.after the ideas in what is the regulation investigatory powers act

:35:39. > :35:41.were formed, the world has completely changed because of the

:35:42. > :35:47.Internet and you need new legislation to cope with this. Are

:35:48. > :35:52.you happy about the oversight that warrants will be required for the

:35:53. > :35:55.authorities to look at a person's web browsing history and should a

:35:56. > :35:59.politician sign off that warrant or a judge? There are certain

:36:00. > :36:04.circumstances where at the moment the Home Secretary or the Foreign

:36:05. > :36:07.Secretary who signs off warrants for telephone intercepts, not for

:36:08. > :36:12.anything else so far as the police are concerned and for surveillance

:36:13. > :36:14.intercepts, also for the intelligence and security agencies,

:36:15. > :36:18.but there's a lot of mists about this. These warrants which are

:36:19. > :36:28.signed off you say by a politician, are signed off in very controlled

:36:29. > :36:30.circumstances and are subject judicial scrutiny which is

:36:31. > :36:34.retrospective. A lot of myths about this. I want to see what the shock

:36:35. > :36:38.proposing but one thing I want to reassure people about is that the

:36:39. > :36:42.current system where the majority of warrants are in any event signed off

:36:43. > :36:46.for example for surveillance by the police signed off in a judicial

:36:47. > :36:50.process and much else besides, but telephone intercepts and one or two

:36:51. > :36:54.other areas are controlled initially by the Home Secretary or the Foreign

:36:55. > :37:00.Secretary, that there are huge safeguards about this and I know of

:37:01. > :37:04.no case where any Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary, of whatever

:37:05. > :37:07.party, has abused the process. Indeed, the process is so tight that

:37:08. > :37:11.I think that it would be imfootball abuse it. The Home Secretary can't

:37:12. > :37:15.wake up in the morning and think, I want to put a tap on this person's

:37:16. > :37:21.telephone. You can only put a tap on a phone if there's an application by

:37:22. > :37:27.a law enforcement agency. The law requires that the officials and the

:37:28. > :37:30.Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs are

:37:31. > :37:33.personally satisfied that it's not only proportionate but necessary to

:37:34. > :37:37.do this and there's no alternative way of gaining that information. And

:37:38. > :37:43.then, to concentrate the mind, you have got a senior retired normally

:37:44. > :37:45.Court of Appeal judge who scrutinises every warrant

:37:46. > :37:50.application that you have signed to check whether you have done it

:37:51. > :37:54.properly. So it's a system which has worked pretty effectively. I

:37:55. > :37:58.understand some of the ostensible concerns about this, but it also has

:37:59. > :38:05.the advantage of speed and there's another area which is national

:38:06. > :38:08.security where even David Anderson, the Government's adviser on

:38:09. > :38:13.Counter-Terrorism and things like that in his report, although he

:38:14. > :38:17.recommends that the main judges should do this, he accepts when it

:38:18. > :38:20.comes to national security, the contentious area, it should in

:38:21. > :38:23.practice be the Secretary of State who makes the application with a

:38:24. > :38:29.judge, so far as I can tell just having a role of ticking the box.

:38:30. > :38:34.This is a complicated area but no-one should believe that the

:38:35. > :38:41.present system has been abused or is open to abuse because it is not.

:38:42. > :38:52.It's judicially supervisedment supervise -- super vied.

:38:53. > :38:54.Does this not put you at odds with your party leader who wants

:38:55. > :38:58.authorisation from a judge, not just a politician? What my party does in

:38:59. > :39:03.Parliament is a matter for them and I'm not telling them what to do, all

:39:04. > :39:07.right, and I'm not seeing the detail of the legislation so I can't

:39:08. > :39:08.comment in detail on precisely what is in this Bill and I'm not a

:39:09. > :39:12.politician any more. is in this Bill and I'm not a

:39:13. > :39:16.saying is that what needs to be taken into account here is

:39:17. > :39:21.saying is that what needs to be current system of

:39:22. > :39:21.saying is that what needs to be Secretary or the Foreign Secretary

:39:22. > :39:23.and, for example, the Northern Secretary or the Foreign Secretary

:39:24. > :39:30.Ireland secretary, but in controlled circumstances and with

:39:31. > :39:35.retrospective judicial supervision which is tough, by the way, works

:39:36. > :39:40.and has worked very successfully in this country.

:39:41. > :39:42.and has worked very successfully in known case of abuse that I can think

:39:43. > :40:05.Nigel, to British citizens have who's a former Assistant Chief

:40:06. > :40:08.Nigel, to British citizens have anything to worry about from this

:40:09. > :40:13.new legislation? I think probably not. If you look at what is

:40:14. > :40:18.happening, essentially it's a rationalisation of different pieces

:40:19. > :40:23.of legislation that have been around for several years and evolved. The

:40:24. > :40:27.idea is to bring these all together into one simple easily understood

:40:28. > :40:31.piece of law. They are not asking for any additional powers. I think

:40:32. > :40:37.the one thing that is being asked for is this access to Internet

:40:38. > :40:41.browsing records for one year. But what we are looking at here is

:40:42. > :40:47.essentially no more than giving the police the online equivalent

:40:48. > :40:49.essentially no more than giving the bill. Do you agree with that? Of

:40:50. > :40:53.course, we bill. Do you agree with that? Of

:40:54. > :40:57.and the Home Office have been burning the Midnight oil working on

:40:58. > :41:01.the detail of this bill because it's a very complex and challenging area,

:41:02. > :41:04.even for lawyers and legislators, it's hard to understand the current

:41:05. > :41:09.legislation. One of the functions of the new draft bill is to consolidate

:41:10. > :41:15.the legislation and make it more readily accessible. I'm not so sure

:41:16. > :41:18.that we can be confident that there won't be challenges for civil

:41:19. > :41:22.liberties issues in this Bill. Of course it's the first duty of the

:41:23. > :41:24.state to protect citizens and make sure they are secure from terrorism

:41:25. > :41:29.and serious crime. But we have to balance that with the state's duty

:41:30. > :41:34.to protect people's civil liberties, human rights and rights to privacy.

:41:35. > :41:39.OK. Mark? There is a lot in that. My concern I guess is that I think it's

:41:40. > :41:42.clear that there are going to be more powers required and part of

:41:43. > :41:47.that is down to changes in technology. Nigel is right, there is

:41:48. > :41:50.also a demand that there should be a consolidating bit of legislation,

:41:51. > :41:53.partly because public confidence has been slightly shaken, even in this

:41:54. > :41:58.country and certainly in other parts of the world by a lot of revelations

:41:59. > :42:01.that Kim out with the so-called Snowdon revelations in the Guardian.

:42:02. > :42:05.-- that came out. You are all making it sound like

:42:06. > :42:09.it's just a formality, just updating the legislation to keep up with

:42:10. > :42:16.technology? There is an element of that. Right to consolidate it

:42:17. > :42:20.because there is a risk that the Security Services could arbitrate

:42:21. > :42:24.the legislation to go in a particular direction. We have an

:42:25. > :42:28.exceptionalist approach in the UK in relation to politicians deciding,

:42:29. > :42:32.the idea that a minister, the Home Office Minister or Foreign Secretary

:42:33. > :42:36.Philip Hammond essentially being able to have that authorisation,

:42:37. > :42:42.rather than going through it at a judge-led system. Almost all of our

:42:43. > :42:51.Western intelligence countries, the US, New Zealand, Australia and

:42:52. > :42:56.America, they look at the approach -- and Canada. Theresa May is going

:42:57. > :43:01.to have to go some way in the direction, having a two-stage

:43:02. > :43:04.process as suggested by David Anderson whereby ministers in an

:43:05. > :43:08.urgent situation will make a decision about whether someone

:43:09. > :43:15.should be under surveillance and that gets judicial consent.

:43:16. > :43:18.Retrospectively, yes. Why is it any more difficult to wake up a judge in

:43:19. > :43:22.the middle of the night to get something moving quickly than to

:43:23. > :43:26.wake up the Home Secretary? Well, it isn't and what I would say is that

:43:27. > :43:32.this legislation is far more than just a formality. There have been a

:43:33. > :43:37.number of reviews preceding it and David Anderson QC, the Government's

:43:38. > :43:39.independent reviewer of terrorism legislation has made key

:43:40. > :43:43.recommendations, one was that there should be judicial oversight of the

:43:44. > :43:46.granting of warrants. He said it was one of the easiest conclusions to

:43:47. > :43:49.him to reach and he pointed to the fact that that's what most other

:43:50. > :43:54.countries in the world do, particularly the other countries in

:43:55. > :43:58.the five Is. Nige Elle, you used to work for MI6, does it matter to your

:43:59. > :44:06.colleagues if the Prime Minister signs off a warrant to look at

:44:07. > :44:09.website history or browsing history? Ultimately it doesn't make that much

:44:10. > :44:13.difference provided they can be confident of getting the speed of

:44:14. > :44:17.access they need when they need it. It's about being able to get hold of

:44:18. > :44:22.somebody to make that decision rapidly. A lot of this is being

:44:23. > :44:25.driven by the global communication service providers, the cosy

:44:26. > :44:28.relationship they have had with Security Services and Governments

:44:29. > :44:32.was very much exposed with what happened by Snowdon and they are

:44:33. > :44:36.driving to a large extent this push for a global protocol. Their

:44:37. > :44:41.cooperation is essential. Let's go back to first principles here, the

:44:42. > :44:43.reason we have the powers is for protection of national security,

:44:44. > :44:49.protecting the individuals out there and I don't think we should forget

:44:50. > :44:53.that. That isn't to say we want widespread powers for politicians or

:44:54. > :44:57.even for a judiciary, we need to have more transparency on this,

:44:58. > :45:00.ultimately a lot of change with this particular legislation is being

:45:01. > :45:05.driven by desires of Internet service providers. Let me read you

:45:06. > :45:09.some comments from people watching: A texter says keep politicians out

:45:10. > :45:13.of any decision on whether a warrant should be signed. Another texter,

:45:14. > :45:16.it's wrong to be snooping on my Internet use, it takes away my

:45:17. > :45:21.privacy. Peter says politicians must be kept out of this and zombie

:45:22. > :45:28.Tweets bogus argument by politicians, anyone can buy a

:45:29. > :45:31.pay-as-you-go phone with Broadband access without ID.

:45:32. > :45:33.Thank you all very much for coming on the programme.

:45:34. > :45:36.Still to come; they made a triumphant comeback in 2012.

:45:37. > :45:44.Now the Stone Roses release more dates; we'll be finding out more.

:45:45. > :46:03.Time for the weather, here is Stav. In

:46:04. > :46:10.Wales we soared 22 Celsius. Underneath that cloud and fog

:46:11. > :46:16.temperatures struggled to get above eight, nine. The reason we do not

:46:17. > :46:21.have so much fog around this morning is there is more of a breeze. There

:46:22. > :46:26.is low-pressure meeting up from the south. There will also be rain to

:46:27. > :46:33.seven and South West counties which will spread north through the day.

:46:34. > :46:36.Further north we are dry and we have fog pockets around. By mid afternoon

:46:37. > :46:45.and will be few glimmers of brightness. In most of England and

:46:46. > :46:52.southern Wales it will be cloudy with outbreaks of rain. In the North

:46:53. > :46:58.of England some patchy fog around. A few glimmers of brightness. The best

:46:59. > :47:02.of the sunshine for Scotland is the north east corner. This evening and

:47:03. > :47:09.overnight the rain band continues to march northwards into central and

:47:10. > :47:15.southern Scotland. Further south, apart from some low cloud, it looks

:47:16. > :47:20.like it will stay relatively mild. There could be a rumble of thunder.

:47:21. > :47:23.The rain band will continue northwards across Scotland on

:47:24. > :47:27.Wednesday. We are looking at a cloudy day with further rain and

:47:28. > :47:31.showers across England and Wales. Sunshine will be limited. We could

:47:32. > :47:36.see the odd glimmer here and now. Wherever you are, whether in the

:47:37. > :47:40.sunshine or the cloud, it will feel mild again. I think continues for

:47:41. > :47:47.the rest of the week. We will start to see some rain and increasing wind

:47:48. > :47:53.as the week wears on. This is the first area of low pressure. You can

:47:54. > :47:57.see tightly packed isobars and an active weather front bringing wind

:47:58. > :48:03.and rain to most parts of the country. In the north there may be

:48:04. > :48:08.glimmers of brightness. It will feel very mild with temperatures of 12,

:48:09. > :48:14.16. It looks like it will stay unsettled and on the downside for

:48:15. > :48:17.bonfire night. More on that tomorrow. -- damp side.

:48:18. > :48:24.I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme if you've just

:48:25. > :48:28.Has the Government given up hope of building support

:48:29. > :48:34.It should be crystal clear that no means no - yet many young people are

:48:35. > :48:49.It can be your friends and people you trust. That is what I have

:48:50. > :48:51.learned. It is a worry that everyday people can end up doing what is

:48:52. > :48:54.classed as rape. And should Oscar Pistorius should

:48:55. > :48:59.have his conviction for shooting his girlfriend changed

:49:00. > :49:01.from manslaughter to murder? It's being discussed

:49:02. > :49:03.by judges this morning. The main BBC news so far this

:49:04. > :49:17.morning. Seven year olds may once again have

:49:18. > :49:25.to sit national tests - as part of the Government's plans to improve

:49:26. > :49:27.school standards in England. The exams for Year Two pupils were

:49:28. > :49:30.scrapped when Labour was in power, but now the Education Secretary

:49:31. > :49:33.Nicky Morgan will consult on The National Association of

:49:34. > :49:42.Head Teachers says it's added All teachers are assessing, every

:49:43. > :49:46.minute of the day. They use tests within lessons. Formalising and puts

:49:47. > :49:51.a different structure completely on the way they are used. It raises

:49:52. > :49:54.anxiety levels and people are looking to teach for the tests. We

:49:55. > :49:59.are looking to move away from that. The British Government is coming

:50:00. > :50:02.under increased pressure to abandon plans to seek parliamentary approval

:50:03. > :50:04.to launch air strikes in Syria. The Foreign Affairs Committee of MPs

:50:05. > :50:07.has come out strongly against Downing Street has rejected several

:50:08. > :50:10.reports from newspapers saying he's failed to convince enough Labour MPs

:50:11. > :50:13.to support British bombing raids against Islamic State targets there,

:50:14. > :50:17.as well as in Iraq. A South African Appeal Court has

:50:18. > :50:19.begun considering whether Oscar Pistorius should have been

:50:20. > :50:21.convicted of murder - not manslaughter - for shooting his

:50:22. > :50:27.girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp in 2013. The athlete is currently under house

:50:28. > :50:30.arrest having served one year A murder conviction could see him

:50:31. > :50:37.sent back to prison for 15 years. Prosecutors told the court

:50:38. > :50:52.the original trial had failed to Let's watch a little bit of the

:50:53. > :51:03.court proceedings right now. The case is being set out.

:51:04. > :51:15.Perhaps... I am sorry if I am a bit weak.

:51:16. > :51:23.The first paragraph starts on page 32. That is numbered 32 or the top

:51:24. > :51:45.32? The printed page, 32. Perhaps on the fact it might have

:51:46. > :51:49.been less controversial finding circumstances that it was for of

:51:50. > :51:53.death. This was the court's to all finding and the accused would have

:51:54. > :52:00.been acquitted even on the findings, he would have still had a

:52:01. > :52:07.punitive defence under the mistaken belief he was acting in unlawful

:52:08. > :52:11.self defence. He would act on knowledge of unlawfulness. We say,

:52:12. > :52:15.even if that is the finding, and even if that finding where to be

:52:16. > :52:22.wrong, let's look at the principal findings. Once the finding of the

:52:23. > :52:34.fact was that he genuinely believed he fired the shots because he was in

:52:35. > :52:37.danger. It excludes dolus. He is representing Oscar Pistorius. We

:52:38. > :52:41.will talk to an expert in South African law who will explain some of

:52:42. > :52:43.what he was talking about in the next 20 minutes or so of the

:52:44. > :52:46.programme. Let's catch up with all the sport

:52:47. > :52:59.now. We'll start with the cricket. James

:53:00. > :53:08.Taylor could only add to to his overnight score. Patel looked really

:53:09. > :53:13.confident as he passed for two. The England tail did not last much

:53:14. > :53:18.longer. Ben Stokes the last man out, batting with a

:53:19. > :53:20.On to gymnastics, where Britain's men's and women's

:53:21. > :53:22.team enjoyed great success at the World Championships last week.

:53:23. > :53:24.Max Whitlock stole the headlines when he became the

:53:25. > :53:27.first British man to become a world champion, beating team mate Louis

:53:28. > :53:40.And you have brought your medals. What a week it was that you

:53:41. > :53:44.personally. You have your two silver medal. What a year when you consider

:53:45. > :53:51.you had glandular fever at the beginning of the year. It has been a

:53:52. > :53:57.long journey. Team GB has had an historic week. The World

:53:58. > :54:03.Championship have been fantastic. What do you put this success down

:54:04. > :54:09.to? Did you envision becoming a world champion? You need to set your

:54:10. > :54:13.ambitions high. I have had support from friends, family and girlfriend.

:54:14. > :54:19.It is the support network that will help me get to where I am. It was

:54:20. > :54:22.the best performance by a team at the World Championships. You managed

:54:23. > :54:29.to break the Chinese stronghold. They have won that team event for

:54:30. > :54:35.many a year. How has Team GB come so good? Strength in our team is very

:54:36. > :54:40.strong and can only get stronger. At the moment it is hard to make the

:54:41. > :54:47.team. This is a six-man team. At the Olympics it will go down to five. It

:54:48. > :54:53.is that that keeps pushing out. Do you expect more medals at Rio next

:54:54. > :54:58.summer? Can I expect to see the British Olympic champion? We hope

:54:59. > :55:02.so. It has given us so much confidence going forward. Hopefully

:55:03. > :55:12.it can be another confidence boost on the road to Rio. Hopefully we can

:55:13. > :55:18.do a similar job. What is next? Rest and recovery. I want to have a good

:55:19. > :55:23.Christmas and then the Europeans. That is the main aim. Rio has been

:55:24. > :55:29.the goal for four years ever since London 2012 and we are all looking

:55:30. > :55:35.forward to it. Thank you for coming in and bringing in your medals. This

:55:36. > :55:42.is news from Australia. Michelle Payne has become

:55:43. > :55:44.the first woman to win The Australian rode outsider Prince

:55:45. > :55:47.of Penzance to victory at Flemington, ahead of

:55:48. > :56:02.Frankie Dettori on Max Dynamite. I laid in bed last night and was

:56:03. > :56:07.dreaming about it. I imagined talking to you after this race.

:56:08. > :56:15.Unbelievable. The dream come true. This horse is awesome. Believes and

:56:16. > :56:20.achieve, the power of visualisation. More at 10:30am.

:56:21. > :56:22.Thank you for joining us this morning.

:56:23. > :56:24.Welcome to the programme if you've just joined us.

:56:25. > :56:29.We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:56:30. > :56:36.Lots of you getting in just about the education changes. Teachers will

:56:37. > :56:43.not sometimes admit they have failed children and it do not get the

:56:44. > :56:47.education they need. Philippa says, I believe tests are important and we

:56:48. > :56:51.are too concerned about hurting feelings of children and we should

:56:52. > :56:55.be able to distinguish between those who are more academic than others.

:56:56. > :56:58.Tests are hyped up. Children should be prepared for real life. Do keep

:56:59. > :57:02.your contributions coming in. Texts will be charged

:57:03. > :57:05.at the standard network rate. And of course you can watch

:57:06. > :57:07.the programme online wherever you are - via the bbc news app or

:57:08. > :57:10.our website bbc.co.uk/victoria - and you can also subscribe to all

:57:11. > :57:13.our features on the news app, by going to add topics

:57:14. > :57:30.and searching Victoria Derbyshire. How much do teenagers and young

:57:31. > :57:34.adults know about sexual consent? Viewers had to vote last night on a

:57:35. > :57:39.programme about whether they thought it was a rape or not. This contains

:57:40. > :57:59.graphic images you may not want children to see.

:58:00. > :58:04.Everyone left. Did you fall asleep in the kitchen or something?

:58:05. > :58:22.Jen, I am freezing, can you budge up?

:58:23. > :58:54.This guy I know, he did something to me.

:58:55. > :58:57.The two of you had a previous relationship, is that correct?

:58:58. > :59:01.Yes, we went out for about three months or something.

:59:02. > :59:06.Honestly, when I got the text I thought she was still interested.

:59:07. > :59:09.You were very happy when Mr Morris came out of the kitchen, you were

:59:10. > :59:24.Why did you not put a stop to it? All you needed to say was no.

:59:25. > :59:28.You could have called out to your friend in

:59:29. > :59:41.We had slept in the same bed loads before, so I climbed up

:59:42. > :00:01.She did not do anything to indicate that she wanted you to continue?

:00:02. > :00:06.She would definitely have said if she was not into it.

:00:07. > :00:08.Did she respond in any way at all? Yes,

:00:09. > :00:24.After that film was shown viewers were asked to vote. This subject has

:00:25. > :00:28.been discussed before on this programme. We gave the Director of

:00:29. > :00:33.Public Prosecutions scenarios to answer. People are really drunk,

:00:34. > :00:36.they are not unconscious. Both think the other consented. In the

:00:37. > :00:41.morning, for example, the woman wakes up, has no recollection of

:00:42. > :00:48.consenting and think she might have raped. That is difficult. Consent

:00:49. > :00:53.has to be given but there has to be an offence. If they cannot remember

:00:54. > :00:56.what has happened, in that case, if I were the women I might go to a

:00:57. > :01:01.support group and talk it through with someone. We have someone who is

:01:02. > :01:05.so incapacitated they cannot give consent. The law is clear and there

:01:06. > :01:12.has been case law that that would be an offence. If the woman is not sure

:01:13. > :01:16.if she consented, she might have done or might not, you think she

:01:17. > :01:23.should not make a complaint to the police. She should think about and

:01:24. > :01:25.talk to support groups is she thinks there may have

:01:26. > :01:30.talk to support groups is she thinks should talk to police. It is not as

:01:31. > :01:33.simple as what happened if people cannot remember. It is each

:01:34. > :01:42.circumstance of each case we would look at. How much do people

:01:43. > :01:46.understand about young consent? We have a group of young people to talk

:01:47. > :01:51.about us. You may not want children to hear some things we are

:01:52. > :01:55.discussing. Rosie is 19 and starts university next year, Frankie is 18

:01:56. > :01:59.and already at university, as is Darren who thinks there are blurred

:02:00. > :02:04.issues when it comes to consent. Beth is a 27-year-old mum who says

:02:05. > :02:13.she was raped back in 2009 and has waived her

:02:14. > :02:14.she was raped back in 2009 and has Kyodi was cleared of rape after a

:02:15. > :02:18.woman accused him of rape. Can I ask Kyodi was cleared of rape after a

:02:19. > :02:21.all of you if you are clear on Kyodi was cleared of rape after a

:02:22. > :02:24.sexual consent is and means. What would you say, Rosie? I

:02:25. > :02:27.sexual consent is and means. What it's not just

:02:28. > :02:30.sexual consent is and means. What definite yes and a definite

:02:31. > :02:32.sexual consent is and means. What acceptance from both parties. So an

:02:33. > :02:34.enthusiastic Overt acceptance from both parties. So an

:02:35. > :02:38.just no, you acceptance from both parties. So an

:02:39. > :02:43.have to say something, rather than... If you don't say no, it

:02:44. > :02:53.doesn't mean you have consented. And you? Enthusiasm, willingness and

:02:54. > :02:58.wanting to partake in any and or sexual activity between both

:02:59. > :03:02.parties, in my opinion, anyway. Does that mean people have to say yes, do

:03:03. > :03:09.they have to use that word or is it just about actions? I think it's a

:03:10. > :03:14.mixture of everything. Yes in some aspects, actions, you know, helping

:03:15. > :03:18.you do something that they enjoy and they would like and, you know,

:03:19. > :03:25.helping you sort of understand what turns them on and turns them off.

:03:26. > :03:30.There could be an issue of miscommunication and that could be

:03:31. > :03:38.misconstrued on both parts. I felt she said yes or I felt he said no,

:03:39. > :03:41.you know, whatever it is. For me, enthusiasm, willingness and wants

:03:42. > :03:47.and communication as well. What about you Beth? It's definitely not

:03:48. > :03:55.100% clear to most people. It wasn't to me. It's getting clearer now. But

:03:56. > :04:00.definitely, I agree can with Kayode and Rosie that there has to be an

:04:01. > :04:05.obvious willingness to take part, it doesn't have to be the exact word

:04:06. > :04:09.yes because nobody says, shall we get undressed and move to the bed,

:04:10. > :04:12.no-one does that, so it has to be obviously that you are both willing

:04:13. > :04:17.and able to consent. If you are worried the other person is too

:04:18. > :04:22.drunk, don't go there. I think from what we have discussed

:04:23. > :04:26.backstage and everything, there is a general consensus that no-one ever

:04:27. > :04:30.asks, are you willing to have sex, it's always in the heat of the

:04:31. > :04:36.moment, it's not very sexy to come out with, would you like to have sex

:04:37. > :04:42.now. You couldn't just say those words, you could say, "do you want

:04:43. > :04:46.this". But that can come across in body language as well. Isn't that

:04:47. > :04:50.where problems might occur the next day, the man or woman could say, he

:04:51. > :04:54.seemed like he was willing or she seemed like he was willing or she

:04:55. > :04:58.didn't have a conversation, he or she didn't say no, so I assumed

:04:59. > :05:02.because she took her clothes off, she was willing. Which is why I

:05:03. > :05:07.think as a generation, as a society, we need to discuss this more openly.

:05:08. > :05:10.It's not discussed at all. I wasn't caught about consent at school.

:05:11. > :05:16.Would you expect school to teach you about consent? Absolutely. Sex and

:05:17. > :05:19.relationship education needs fundamental root and Branch reform.

:05:20. > :05:26.Frankie, do you understand what it meant? Yes, the issue is, you can be

:05:27. > :05:30.in a club with someone, dancing and go home with them, but in the taxi

:05:31. > :05:35.on the way, you can sober up and think, what am I doing. At that time

:05:36. > :05:38.though, that person could have decided that they are going to

:05:39. > :05:41.engage in sexual contact. Just because you are showing attention

:05:42. > :05:45.and flirting, even though you might have said you want to have sex with

:05:46. > :05:49.them, doesn't mean that's the final decision. It's not just with women

:05:50. > :05:55.and men, but everyone in general. Yes, you can change your mind, you

:05:56. > :05:58.could say yes at one point, literally five minutes later, you

:05:59. > :06:03.can change your mind. I suppose you have to communicate the fact that

:06:04. > :06:06.you have. There is a really good animation which involves a cup of

:06:07. > :06:10.tea which I'm going to show you now. You may have seen it which makes

:06:11. > :06:25.everything so clear. Let's have a look now.

:06:26. > :06:31.Just imagine about initiating sex. You say, do you want a cup of tea,

:06:32. > :06:37.and they say, I would love a cup of tea. That's consent. If they say,

:06:38. > :06:41.I'm not really sure. You could make them a cup of tea or not, but be

:06:42. > :06:44.aware they might not drink it and if they don't drink it, and this is

:06:45. > :06:48.important par, don't make them drink it.

:06:49. > :06:53.Just because you made it, doesn't mean you are entitled to watch them

:06:54. > :06:58.drink it. If they say no thank you, don't make them tea at all. Just

:06:59. > :07:03.don't make them tea. Don't make them drink tea, don't get annoyed at them

:07:04. > :07:08.for not wanting tea, they just don't want tea, OK. They might say yes

:07:09. > :07:12.please, that's kind of you and then when the tea arrives, they actually

:07:13. > :07:16.don't want the tea at all. Sure that's kind of annoying as you have

:07:17. > :07:19.gone to all the effort of making the tea but they remain under no

:07:20. > :07:24.obligation to make the tea. They did want tea, now they don't, some

:07:25. > :07:28.people children their mind in the time it takes to brew the tea, boil

:07:29. > :07:31.the kettle and add the milk and it's OK to change their mind and you are

:07:32. > :07:35.still not entitled to watch them drink it. If they are unconscious,

:07:36. > :07:39.don't make them tea. Unconscious people don't want tea and they can't

:07:40. > :07:43.answer the question do you want tea because they are unconscious.

:07:44. > :07:46.OK, maybe they were conscious when you asked them if they wanted tea

:07:47. > :07:51.and they said yes, but in the time it took you to boil the kettle, brew

:07:52. > :07:55.the tea and add the milk, they are now unconscious. You should just put

:07:56. > :07:58.the tea down, make sure the unconscious person is safe. This is

:07:59. > :08:03.the important part again. Don't make them drink the tea. They said yes

:08:04. > :08:08.then, sure, but unconscious people don't want tea.

:08:09. > :08:12.If someone said yes to tea, started drinking it, then passed out and

:08:13. > :08:17.finished it, don't keep pouring it down their throat. Take the tea

:08:18. > :08:21.away. Make sure they are safe because unconscious people don't

:08:22. > :08:25.want tea. Trust me on this. If someone said yes to tea round your

:08:26. > :08:31.place last Saturday, doesn't mean they want tea all the time, they

:08:32. > :08:35.don't want you to come around at their place unexpectedly, you wanted

:08:36. > :08:38.tea last week or to wake up to find you pouring tea down their throat

:08:39. > :08:47.going, but you wanted tea last night. If you can understand how

:08:48. > :08:51.completely lewd ludicrous it is to force people to have tea when they

:08:52. > :08:55.don't want it, how difficult is it to understand whether they want tea.

:08:56. > :08:58.Whether it's tea or sex, consent is everything, on that note, I'm going

:08:59. > :09:03.to make myself a cup of tea. I wonder if you think that every

:09:04. > :09:11.class of 16-year-olds saw that, it would be absolutely clear, don't you

:09:12. > :09:15.reckon? Definitely. A lot clearer. Kayode, you were falsely accused of

:09:16. > :09:19.raping a woman who had sex with you. How difficult was it for you to show

:09:20. > :09:28.she had consented? It was a challenge. If I can go back to the

:09:29. > :09:36.tea video, my situation for the viewers watching, was very simple. I

:09:37. > :09:42.was asked for a cup of tea, I made a cup of tea, drunk the cup of tea,

:09:43. > :09:47.woke up, had more tea and then when I'd left, she then decided that she

:09:48. > :09:53.didn't want the tea. OK. Actually, the burden is not on you

:09:54. > :09:58.to show that she consented? It was on the prosecutors? One of the

:09:59. > :10:02.fundamental rules of law is, it's on somebody to prove your guilt. In my

:10:03. > :10:08.situation, it was the other way around, I had to prove my innocence,

:10:09. > :10:15.which was 100 times worse than that because I had to, you know, track

:10:16. > :10:19.back and try and gather my own evidence and gather my own

:10:20. > :10:23.information and present it and say, well actually, we had the tea

:10:24. > :10:27.together, she wanted the tea, I wanted the tea, you know, there was

:10:28. > :10:31.no denying of that, I shouldn't, my life shouldn't have been ruined, you

:10:32. > :10:37.know, my name shouldn't have been out there and I shouldn't be paying

:10:38. > :10:44.the price for something I didn't do. Beth, can I ask what happened to

:10:45. > :10:51.you? So when I was 21, I was attacked by someone that I knew. I'd

:10:52. > :10:55.been out at a pub drinking with a friend because I'd had an argument

:10:56. > :10:59.with my boyfriend and she was trying to cheer me up. This guy came over.

:11:00. > :11:04.I'd seen him before on student nights out and stuff and he got

:11:05. > :11:09.chatting to us, I told him about the argument and he spent the evening

:11:10. > :11:11.comforting me, buying me trunks and being friendly and generally

:11:12. > :11:17.cheering me up. And you were fine with that? Yes, it was a nice

:11:18. > :11:21.evening. He was aware I had a boyfriend so I didn't think he had

:11:22. > :11:26.an ulterior motive. But when my friend left, he said, do you want to

:11:27. > :11:30.come back to mine, we'll watch a movie, I said yes sure, I rang my

:11:31. > :11:35.boyfriend, said who I was going with and where I was going. Then I

:11:36. > :11:40.started to get quite hazy because I was very drunk, I'd had about two or

:11:41. > :11:43.three bottles of wine at this point. I remember being in his room on his

:11:44. > :11:47.bed watching a movie and he kept trying to kiss me and I kept saying,

:11:48. > :11:53.no, I've got a boyfriend. Then I passed out. When I came to, he was

:11:54. > :12:00.on top of me and I kind of tried to say no and turn away, but I was in

:12:01. > :12:04.and out of consciousness, I wasn't strong enough or anything, so I just

:12:05. > :12:08.kind of gave up and let it happen, and in the morning... There was no

:12:09. > :12:13.way you had given consent, enthusiastic consent, willing

:12:14. > :12:17.consent? Definitely not. You were in and out of consciousness, you didn't

:12:18. > :12:22.even have the capacity to consent? Exactly. The point was, when you

:12:23. > :12:26.left the next morning, you felt bad, you didn't realise effectively that

:12:27. > :12:29.you would be raped? I thought I cheated on my boyfriend because I

:12:30. > :12:34.thought that I'd brought it on myself. I believed at the time that

:12:35. > :12:39.if a girl has accepted drinks, she's been friendly with him, she's

:12:40. > :12:44.willingly gone back to his that she was asking for it and she should

:12:45. > :12:49.accept what happened. Why did do you think that, where has that come from

:12:50. > :12:53.in your head? I think society. Jokes in lad culture, it's definitely a

:12:54. > :12:58.big, big thing. One of the jokes in uni that a lot of my very nice male

:12:59. > :13:01.friends would say is, if she still has sex with you in the morning, you

:13:02. > :13:06.know it wasn't rape the night before. They start off at jokes and

:13:07. > :13:10.everyone says, it's just a laugh, it's just funny, but it ends up

:13:11. > :13:16.being what people actually believe. OK. Thank you all very much. Thank

:13:17. > :13:23.you for being so open and honest, thank you.

:13:24. > :13:29.Still to come, David Cameron has warned against action in Syria. One

:13:30. > :13:34.MP says it would be wrong to get involved. The latest news and sport

:13:35. > :13:37.in a second but first Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie have been talking

:13:38. > :13:41.about her decision to have a double mastectomy to try to stop her

:13:42. > :13:46.getting cancer. She had surgery after a gene test predicted she had

:13:47. > :13:51.an 87% chance of developing breast cancer. She later had her ovaries

:13:52. > :13:57.removed after a blood test suggested she could have early stage ovarian

:13:58. > :14:01.cancer. Brad Pitt told MBC how he reacted when she told him the

:14:02. > :14:06.results of the blood test. I was out in France and she called

:14:07. > :14:14.me and I got straight on the plane to return. Seeing my wife have to be

:14:15. > :14:17.at her strongest and knowing it was the scariest news is terribly

:14:18. > :14:21.moving. Together they faced the crisis,

:14:22. > :14:25.although it ended up she did not have a full blown tumour, she had

:14:26. > :14:33.her ovaries and fallopian tubes removed. For Brad, Angelina's

:14:34. > :14:37.surgery is a medical challenge. They have been inspirational. How did you

:14:38. > :14:43.see your role in all of that? Support. Whatever needs to be done

:14:44. > :14:48.to keep the family together. She was doing it for her kids and family. He

:14:49. > :14:53.made it very, very clear to me that what he loved and what was a woman

:14:54. > :14:59.to him was someone who was smart and capable of looking after our family.

:15:00. > :15:03.It's not about a physical body. Still to come: We'll hear from some

:15:04. > :15:07.of the Police and Crime Commissioners threatening legal

:15:08. > :15:11.action over cuts to their budgets. A day of intense speculation about a

:15:12. > :15:22.Stone Roses comeback ends as the band announces new dates.

:15:23. > :15:28.Seven-year-olds may once again have to sit national tests as part of

:15:29. > :15:33.government plans to improve school standards in England.

:15:34. > :15:36.The exams for Year Two pupils were scrapped when Labour was in power,

:15:37. > :15:39.but now the Education Secretary Nicky Morgan will consult on

:15:40. > :15:50.You just say, this is what we are going to do today. It is not

:15:51. > :15:55.something we throw on them saying, I have never done this before in my

:15:56. > :15:59.life. Equally, it is not something we make a huge deal. I totally

:16:00. > :16:07.accept there are a lot of places where that does happen.

:16:08. > :16:09.The British Government is coming under increased pressure to abandon

:16:10. > :16:12.plans to seek parliamentary approval to launch air strikes in Syria.

:16:13. > :16:15.The Foreign Affairs Committee of MPs has come out strongly against

:16:16. > :16:18.Downing Street has rejected several reports from newspapers saying he's

:16:19. > :16:21.failed to convince enough Labour MPs to support British bombing raids

:16:22. > :16:25.against Islamic State targets there, as well as in Iraq.

:16:26. > :16:34.German police have raided the football federation headquarters

:16:35. > :16:39.about the 2006 World Cup. The statement said they were

:16:40. > :16:43.investigating the transfer of more than 6.7 million euros from the

:16:44. > :16:48.German football Association to Fifa. There had been allegations that fund

:16:49. > :16:52.was set up to secure Germany hosted the World Cup which they deny.

:16:53. > :16:55.The first nine bodies of the victims of Saturday's Russian plane crash

:16:56. > :16:59.Investigators are still trying to piece together what happened to

:17:00. > :17:01.the airliner carrying 224 people when it came down,

:17:02. > :17:04.Yesterday airline officials said an "external influence"

:17:05. > :17:24.Standard Chartered is cutting 15,000 jobs worldwide because of slump in

:17:25. > :17:29.profits. This morning they posted a loss of ?90 million for the third

:17:30. > :17:30.quarter. The bank is planning to raise more than ?3 billion in

:17:31. > :17:33.capital to overhaul the business. Let's catch up with all the sport

:17:34. > :17:45.now. Pakistani trail England by 31 runs.

:17:46. > :17:51.England posted 306 all out in their first innings.

:17:52. > :17:54.Cesc Fabregas has taken to Twitter to proclaim his support for Chelsea

:17:55. > :17:56.manager Jose Mourinho, denying claims by The Secret

:17:57. > :17:59.Footballer blog that he's the leader of rumoured dressing room unrest.

:18:00. > :18:02.New manager Remi Garde watched from the stands as Aston Villa lost

:18:03. > :18:07.Harry Kane rounding off Spurs' win, to take them up to fifth

:18:08. > :18:13.And Michelle Payne has become the first woman to win

:18:14. > :18:17.The Australian rode outsider Prince of Penzance to victory

:18:18. > :18:32.That's all the sport this morning, Victoria.

:18:33. > :18:34.South Africa's Supreme Court of Appeal is considering whether Oscar

:18:35. > :18:37.Pistorius should have been convicted of murder - not manslaughter - for

:18:38. > :18:44.The athlete is currently under house arrest having served a year

:18:45. > :18:49.A murder conviction could see him sent back to prison for 15 years.

:18:50. > :19:01.Let's dip into the proceedings. This is the factual matrix. There was an

:19:02. > :19:08.area of law. It is about the drawing of the inference and during the

:19:09. > :19:13.correct inference. I tried to make it plain that we have difficulty

:19:14. > :19:20.with the interpretation. I hear you, I understand the

:19:21. > :19:23.interpretation. What is more complicated is the previous

:19:24. > :19:29.decisions of this court indicating it is the only thing that can happen

:19:30. > :19:39.but it is open. If I may just come back to one point. Before that, it

:19:40. > :19:49.is interesting... In commentary, 31-39... Those are the proceedings

:19:50. > :19:54.live in South Africa now. Thank you for talking to us. Tell our viewers

:19:55. > :20:03.here in Britain exactly what is happening in court today. This is

:20:04. > :20:09.the appeal. What is happening is the prosecution has taken the matter to

:20:10. > :20:16.the supreme court of appeal. The judge, it is stated, the original

:20:17. > :20:20.trial judge made an error in law about finding Oscar Pistorius is

:20:21. > :20:28.guilty of Cobb for homicide. In what way will they argue that she made an

:20:29. > :20:38.error? -- culpable. They were basing the argument on the issue of

:20:39. > :20:48.contempt. They are saying it is about negligence. He said he would

:20:49. > :20:52.not be focusing specifically on the facts in this particular instance

:20:53. > :21:00.that much rather on the interpretation of the facts as

:21:01. > :21:07.relates to the law. I see that Barry grew, the defence advocate for Oscar

:21:08. > :21:16.Pistorius, is arguing to the contrary. -- Roux. White little more

:21:17. > :21:21.insight on the idea of contempt. -- a little more inside. He should have

:21:22. > :21:33.seen shooting four times through the toilet door would Gil somebody. The

:21:34. > :21:43.concept of Roux is difficult to get your head around. Murder is a crime

:21:44. > :21:48.of intent. It is about being intent of causing the death to another

:21:49. > :21:53.person. Culpable homicide acquires negligence. It means you are acting

:21:54. > :21:59.in a negligent manner and not in the way a responsible person would. The

:22:00. > :22:03.judge found Oscar Pistorius negligent as opposed to contempt.

:22:04. > :22:07.They are arguing that Oscar the story is intended to Gil whoever was

:22:08. > :22:17.behind the toilet door in a cubicle at that moment. It is a very strong

:22:18. > :22:21.case. That is a really good explanation for us in Britain. If

:22:22. > :22:25.the state manages to convince the panel of judges they are right and

:22:26. > :22:35.Oscar this story should have been found guilty of murder, what could

:22:36. > :22:41.that mean? -- Oscar Pistorius. As far as I understand, I was listening

:22:42. > :22:44.to the argument being put forward by Barry Roux, the defence advocate.

:22:45. > :22:50.What they are debating now is whether a retrial would be required,

:22:51. > :22:55.bringing into question the issue of double jeopardy. To be honest with

:22:56. > :23:00.you, it is a bit of a curve ball to me as well. As far as I know, the

:23:01. > :23:04.Supreme Court of appeal is asking the question on whether the judge

:23:05. > :23:09.had made the correct binding in law, had she given the correct

:23:10. > :23:17.conviction? Is she had not, they will overturn the conviction from

:23:18. > :23:20.culpable homicide to murder. That is the point of argument at the

:23:21. > :23:28.moment. I'm interested in hearing what the outcome is. Thank you for

:23:29. > :23:32.talking to us. I appreciate your time. But from a journalist in

:23:33. > :23:38.Johannesburg who has been explaining that.

:23:39. > :23:40.Six police and crime commissioners are threatening to bring legal

:23:41. > :23:42.action against the Home Office over further police funding cuts.

:23:43. > :23:45.The PCCs who were elected in 2012 have written to the policing

:23:46. > :23:48.minister Mike Penning urging him to delay a decision on how much

:23:49. > :23:53.They're warning the changes are unfair and unjustified.

:23:54. > :24:03.In July, the new head told us that hard choices needed to be made about

:24:04. > :24:06.which crimes were investigated. Our budgets have been cut

:24:07. > :24:10.significantly, 25% over the last four years. Listening to what the

:24:11. > :24:15.Chancellor had to say in the budget, we are anticipating those sorts of

:24:16. > :24:19.cuts again. Over ten years we will have lost 70,000 posts. I do not

:24:20. > :24:25.think it is possible for us to carry on doing up we have always done,

:24:26. > :24:31.because we would fail the public. It would cause unacceptable stress

:24:32. > :24:34.among officers and staff. It is like if your iPad has been nicked from

:24:35. > :24:41.your home, and will not be coming round to help you. Exactly. We are a

:24:42. > :24:59.public service. What do they want us to deal with? Theresa May insists

:25:00. > :25:02.the forces can be more efficient. This has really significant

:25:03. > :25:08.consequences. It is separate as an issue to the changes to the court

:25:09. > :25:13.overall. We have been through a situation where we have already seen

:25:14. > :25:18.?74 million taken out by the end of this financial year in Lancashire,

:25:19. > :25:23.which represents 25% of our budgets. This is on top of that a change to

:25:24. > :25:27.the funding formula which changes the distribution of funding to all

:25:28. > :25:31.police forces in the country. In Lancashire, we face an additional

:25:32. > :25:38.?25 million in cuts from the funding formula. Then we face is on top of

:25:39. > :25:42.that further cuts with the changes to the spending review which will be

:25:43. > :25:49.announced next month. White at what will that mean to policing across

:25:50. > :25:56.Lancashire? It will be devastating. -- what will that mean? We will not

:25:57. > :25:59.be able to deliver a service which is recognisable to the public. All

:26:00. > :26:05.the decisions we have taken so far have meant we have taken out all the

:26:06. > :26:09.savings from the back office. We have gone down from six divisions to

:26:10. > :26:13.three divisions. We have made a number of changes to make sure the

:26:14. > :26:17.officers on the front line can try to deliver a service to the public.

:26:18. > :26:23.All those decisions have now been taken. Last week the Government

:26:24. > :26:27.announced with the inspection on efficiency that Lancashire was one

:26:28. > :26:33.of the most efficient forces in the country. They recognise we have made

:26:34. > :26:40.the right decisions so far. We are making the right decisions. The way

:26:41. > :26:49.we have been rewarded is further cuts of ?21 million to our budget.

:26:50. > :26:53.It means we face decisions about neighbourhood policing and all the

:26:54. > :27:00.work we are doing with partners on early action and prevention work

:27:01. > :27:05.which is being put at risk. I'd agree you have already saved ?74

:27:06. > :27:09.million, you say. As that money was being cut and you are reorganising

:27:10. > :27:16.things, at the same time, you're also saying this will impact on the

:27:17. > :27:22.way we please Lancashire. You have done it. We have so far. The service

:27:23. > :27:27.has not been delivered in the way it has been in the past. We have made

:27:28. > :27:33.decisions to push officers out. There are less of them. We have lost

:27:34. > :27:37.so far 700 police officers in Lancashire, but we are making the

:27:38. > :27:42.best of what we have. If you accept that as an argument saying, we have

:27:43. > :27:46.done it so far, so far, so good. That is all it is. You cannot say

:27:47. > :27:59.you can go on cutting ad Info night and will not have an impact. It

:28:00. > :28:02.will. -- add infinitum. When you say it will be a service not

:28:03. > :28:08.recognisable to the public if you have to cut another 24.5 million or

:28:09. > :28:14.even more, what differences will tax payers see? At the moment, when

:28:15. > :28:18.people call out the police, they are not getting the service they use to

:28:19. > :28:26.get. The police will say, can they not have a look and try to deal with

:28:27. > :28:31.the immediate threat? We are now policing to threat armour risks.

:28:32. > :28:34.What we will face with the additional cuts being. On Earth is

:28:35. > :28:40.the neighbourhood approach, the early action, working with the other

:28:41. > :28:44.partner agencies, we face threats to that or the front counties where the

:28:45. > :28:49.police interact with the public. They would go. -- the front

:28:50. > :28:53.counters. The whole way we investigate crime will change and

:28:54. > :28:58.that will put people's lives at risk. That is significant of the

:28:59. > :29:04.changes being put upon us now. Just to be clear on that. Sorry to

:29:05. > :29:12.interrupt you. However put people's lives at risk? When people call out

:29:13. > :29:16.the police, they expect a service. With neighbourhood policing, people

:29:17. > :29:20.think it is nice to do thing. A lot of the intelligence and information

:29:21. > :29:24.dealing with serious and organised crime, a lot of the intelligence

:29:25. > :29:28.dealing with counterterrorism, it is given to us by having interaction

:29:29. > :29:32.with the public. That trust and confidence that you gain from being

:29:33. > :29:37.a part of the community. Once you lose that, once you lose that

:29:38. > :29:39.connection with the public, you lose all that information and

:29:40. > :29:47.intelligence that comes from that. What we need to do is build up that

:29:48. > :29:50.support and that connection we have with the public. That is a large

:29:51. > :29:53.part of what we have been doing over the last three to four years. We

:29:54. > :29:56.have been really successful in that and have been given plaudits from

:29:57. > :30:01.the Government for what we have done. Now they are going beyond that

:30:02. > :30:07.and saying they have to take further cuts. That is what is at risk. Thank

:30:08. > :30:13.you for making that clear. Let me speak to your colleague in Cumbria,

:30:14. > :30:18.Richard Rhodes. How much more do you face in terms of that it cuts and

:30:19. > :30:27.what impact will have when it comes to policing the course -- across

:30:28. > :30:33.Cumbria? The latest suggestions require us to save nearly 10

:30:34. > :30:37.million, nearly 16%, of our budget. Cumbria is hit harder than anyone

:30:38. > :30:40.else in the country in percentage terms. If we then prepare ourselves

:30:41. > :30:45.for the comprehensive spending review later this month, we are

:30:46. > :30:48.looking at around 25%. If we add all of that together plus an

:30:49. > :30:54.inflationary increase, we believe we are looking to find another ?26

:30:55. > :31:01.million by 2020 on top of the 20 million has already been saved. Can

:31:02. > :31:05.you do it? Only with extreme difficulty. Up until now we have

:31:06. > :31:11.been able to preserve the front line but we have to look seriously at

:31:12. > :31:14.that. In Cumbria, 85% of expenditure is wages and salaries. If we're

:31:15. > :31:18.going to come anywhere near those figures, we will have to look at

:31:19. > :31:22.that. There is a lot of other stuff we can do. We have also been working

:31:23. > :31:26.at back office and those sorts of things over the last four years. It

:31:27. > :31:32.will be extremely difficult and it is quite clear that whatever police

:31:33. > :31:37.force emerges income at the end of this, it will be very different from

:31:38. > :31:43.the 1 we have at the moment. Are you really going to take legal action?

:31:44. > :31:48.At the moment we are going to take legal advice over the strength of

:31:49. > :31:51.any case. There are aspects in the consultation we believe are flawed

:31:52. > :31:57.and we want to test that make final decision.

:31:58. > :32:03.You would consider legal action against the Government would you?

:32:04. > :32:05.Absolutely. We believe the consultation is fundamentally

:32:06. > :32:08.flawed. The consultation itself that run over the summer months didn't

:32:09. > :32:12.give us any of the technical detail we would have needed to Schmidt a

:32:13. > :32:16.proper response and understand that the impact it would have had. None

:32:17. > :32:23.of that was given to us. It's been given to us at the latest stage.

:32:24. > :32:28.It's only a week ago they gave us the proper detail and it's just a

:32:29. > :32:32.nonsense that something as significant and important as this,

:32:33. > :32:35.that they have withheld that information so clearly we'll take

:32:36. > :32:36.whatever means necessary to defend the safety of the public.

:32:37. > :32:49.Thank you both very much. We have had a statement from the

:32:50. > :32:54.police minister about the funding reforms; he says further changes are

:32:55. > :33:06.needed and that the current model for allocating

:33:07. > :33:16.As we have been reporting, the Prime Minister is under pressure to drop

:33:17. > :33:21.plan force a Commons vote on a vote for military intervention on Syria.

:33:22. > :33:28.Let's talk to John Barren who sits on the Foreign Affairs Select

:33:29. > :33:32.Committee. Explain to our audience why you think it wouldn't be worth

:33:33. > :33:36.British planes bombing Syria at the moment to attack IS tarts when they

:33:37. > :33:43.are bombing IS targets next door in Iraq? Very simply, I think most

:33:44. > :33:48.experts, military anyway, accept that air strikes alone will not

:33:49. > :33:53.defeat Isil or diesh as they are called locally, and that the British

:33:54. > :33:57.contribution would be very marginal indeed. What is needed is fresh

:33:58. > :34:03.thinking instead of just more force and we have got to learn from the

:34:04. > :34:06.mistakes of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya and ask ourselves one very

:34:07. > :34:10.simple straightforward question, which presents the greatest threat

:34:11. > :34:14.to the West, President Assad or Isil? If it is Isil, which most of

:34:15. > :34:18.us think it is, what we should be doing instead is forging some sort

:34:19. > :34:23.of regional alliance if we are going to get involved at all to make sure

:34:24. > :34:26.that we stand the best chance of defeating this evil organisation,

:34:27. > :34:30.otherwise we might as well not intervene at all. OK, I'll come back

:34:31. > :34:38.to the regional alliance point you made. Why are they bombing in Iraq?

:34:39. > :34:43.I question that logic as well as an individual MP. What we need to make

:34:44. > :34:47.sure we do or try at the very least is forge some sort of regional

:34:48. > :34:55.alliance. There is a lot of regional powers in the area who want to see

:34:56. > :34:58.Isil defeated. We need to focus on mobilising that force, including the

:34:59. > :35:05.Kurds in the north-east of Iraq, and put some form of coordinated plan on

:35:06. > :35:09.the ground. At the moment, air strikes may stall Isil, if you like,

:35:10. > :35:16.but they are certainly not going to defeat them and we need bigger

:35:17. > :35:19.thinking, otherwise we may not get involved at all, certainly from

:35:20. > :35:22.Syria's point of view in this vicious war that's been going on for

:35:23. > :35:26.several years. Indeed. Are you embarrassed by politicians here and

:35:27. > :35:29.across the region about the lack of big thinking? Well, some of us have

:35:30. > :35:35.been making the point that what we need to do is learn from our

:35:36. > :35:40.mistakes over the last ten years and our interventions, look at the big

:35:41. > :35:45.picture. For example, why are we still calling for the overthrow or

:35:46. > :35:49.replacement of President Assad when Isil is the bigger enemy. We have

:35:50. > :35:54.got to speak to regional powers that perhaps we would not normally want

:35:55. > :35:58.to speak with, whether it's the Russians or Iranians, speak to some

:35:59. > :36:03.friend leer neighbours in the region as well and think about putting a

:36:04. > :36:07.form of strategy together, not our own ground troops but local ground

:36:08. > :36:10.troops in perhaps as part of a wider strategy to ultimately defeat Isil.

:36:11. > :36:15.It's not just the military side of things we have got to look at, but

:36:16. > :36:19.the none-military side. For example, why aren't we disrupting Isil's

:36:20. > :36:24.financial flows, their business interests and why aren't we doing

:36:25. > :36:28.more to disrupt their prominence on social media. They are great

:36:29. > :36:32.questions, please answer them, why? These are some of the questions that

:36:33. > :36:36.the Foreign Affairs Select Committee are asking the Government to answer.

:36:37. > :36:39.I think that is part of the reason why you are covering the story today

:36:40. > :36:41.because we have released the report, a series of questions which we hope

:36:42. > :36:46.the Government will come forward and answer. Are you telling me the

:36:47. > :36:50.Defence Secretary, it's not occurred to them to try to disrupt Isil's

:36:51. > :36:53.money-making efforts? No, I'm saying it's probably occurred to them but

:36:54. > :36:57.we are not seeing much evidence of that on the ground so we are saying

:36:58. > :37:05.what more can we do, please come and talk to us.

:37:06. > :37:09.Can you imagine a scenario of Russians, Iranians, Iraq, maybe

:37:10. > :37:12.Brits, maybe if we were invited, President Assad himself sitting

:37:13. > :37:15.around a table to it is can yous how to end the Civil War in Syria? Well,

:37:16. > :37:20.at the end of the day, it's a cliche, but it's true all the same,

:37:21. > :37:25.you know, you Makepeace with your enemies, not with your friends. At

:37:26. > :37:28.the end of the day, it requires a diplomatic and political sluetion,

:37:29. > :37:31.rather than just more force which, as we have seen with previous

:37:32. > :37:35.interventions doesn't always achieve the aims of which it originally

:37:36. > :37:38.intended. So yes is the short answer. At the end of the day,

:37:39. > :37:40.there's got to be a political solution if there is going to be a

:37:41. > :37:44.solution at all. I wonder how long that will take, do

:37:45. > :37:47.you think? I think it could take a little why but what I do know is

:37:48. > :37:54.that air strikes alone, and we'd only be talking about two or four

:37:55. > :37:58.British War planes in the air at any one time above Syria, I think it

:37:59. > :38:03.would have a marginal effect and would not defeat Isil as I think all

:38:04. > :38:07.military experts acknowledge. But also, it risks escalating the

:38:08. > :38:10.problem with the Russians now involved supporting Assad and with

:38:11. > :38:13.the Americans in particular supporting the Free Syrian Army, the

:38:14. > :38:18.two Air Forces, there's a remote chance that, unless there's some

:38:19. > :38:23.very clear talking at higher levels, we could have accidents happen in

:38:24. > :38:27.the air which could escalate the conflict even further. Would you

:38:28. > :38:33.call for British planes to stop their military action over Iraq?

:38:34. > :38:38.Well, we had that vote and we lost that debate and it's a fact that all

:38:39. > :38:44.British War planes are participating in air strikes. The debate today

:38:45. > :38:48.centres around the Foreign Affairs Committee report about intervention

:38:49. > :38:51.in Syria and I certainly, and I'm not alone, would suggest caution to

:38:52. > :38:54.the Government before proceeding. As I say, we need fresh thinking, not

:38:55. > :39:05.just more force. Thank you very much. Let me bring

:39:06. > :39:09.you some breaking news. We brought you coverage from the Supreme Court

:39:10. > :39:13.of Appeal in South Africa which has begun considering whether Oscar

:39:14. > :39:16.Pistorius should have his conviction for shooting his girlfriend Reeva

:39:17. > :39:20.Steenkamp changed from manslaughter to murder. It looks like the Supreme

:39:21. > :39:27.Court is saying it's going to give its ruling at a much later date. We

:39:28. > :39:30.are potentially expecting a steer from them, but now they are saying

:39:31. > :39:35.they'll give their ruling on Oscar Pistorius at a later date, they'll

:39:36. > :39:39.make their ruling public as to whether it should be changed from

:39:40. > :39:45.manslaughter to murder at a later date, not exactly clear when.

:39:46. > :39:49.This news as well. Officers investigating a series of possibly

:39:50. > :39:52.linked sexual assaults in the Clapham and Brixton Hill areas of

:39:53. > :39:55.London have arrested a 24-year-old man in connection with the

:39:56. > :39:59.incidents. He was arrested on suspicion of sexual assault last

:40:00. > :40:08.night in the Brixton Hill area. He remains in custody at a South London

:40:09. > :40:11.police station. The Stone Roses have announced

:40:12. > :40:27.concerts in Manchester next summer. It's their first for three years.

:40:28. > :40:32.Tickets go on sale on Friday, but will they follow up the gig with new

:40:33. > :40:35.material? Let's talk to Colin Paterson, is it good news? It's not

:40:36. > :40:40.the news all fans were hoping for yesterday. An exciting day in

:40:41. > :40:42.Manchester, around 8 o'clock in the morning, the posters started

:40:43. > :40:47.appearing in the northern quarter area of the city, a very

:40:48. > :40:51.old-fashioned tactic, they put them up in record shops, hairdressers,

:40:52. > :40:55.cafes and the word started all going around, the Stone Roses are coming

:40:56. > :41:01.back, it must be the third album, because they have not released an

:41:02. > :41:04.album since 1994, 21 years, so when the announcement was made last

:41:05. > :41:08.night, fans were happy that there are three gigs but there was a

:41:09. > :41:13.slight sense of anticlimax that it was not the new material that people

:41:14. > :41:18.had been waiting for. Is that going to happen do you reckon or not, I

:41:19. > :41:22.mean can they start writing new material, I'm trying to remember

:41:23. > :41:28.them all. Remind us of the names of the band members. I don't think

:41:29. > :41:34.their work ethic was massive? Ian Brown, John Squire, Rennie and

:41:35. > :41:39.Mannie are the four piece. I met one of the members of the band at the

:41:40. > :41:42.Dynamo magic gig. He said the four are back in the studio and working

:41:43. > :41:47.on new material so I really do believe there will be a new album.

:41:48. > :41:51.They are going to announce it between now and the gigs. I imagine

:41:52. > :41:55.the gigs will tie in with new material. If not, I think some

:41:56. > :42:00.people will start to lose patience with that. Very interestingly as

:42:01. > :42:05.well, the dates of the gigs, 17th and 18th June, that is a week before

:42:06. > :42:10.Glastonbury! There has to be a really good chance they'll be

:42:11. > :42:14.headlining Glastonbury next year. So if you have ticket force

:42:15. > :42:18.Glastonbury, you could be in for a treat. What about the comeback they

:42:19. > :42:22.had a few years ago? Three nights at Heaton Park sold out within hours. I

:42:23. > :42:26.very sadly spent my summer holidays following them to Barcelona for

:42:27. > :42:30.their first comeback gig. The warm-up one for that, spending my

:42:31. > :42:34.own money, not the BBC's to go for that! So maybe not the most

:42:35. > :42:37.objective view when it comes to the Stone Roses but you can't keep

:42:38. > :42:41.coming back and playing the old hits. At some point they have to

:42:42. > :42:49.bring out new material. Thank you very much. A couple of

:42:50. > :42:54.messages from you on the subject of sexual consent. Thank you for all

:42:55. > :42:58.the messages. Toby says rape is rape but becomes a difficult issue when

:42:59. > :43:03.alcohol is involved. If one party can be too drunk to consent, then if

:43:04. > :43:07.the other party is in a similar state, they'll be surely too out of

:43:08. > :43:11.it to seek consent or understand that consent hasn't been freely

:43:12. > :43:15.given. Again, Max says, no-one's talked about alcohol as a problem,

:43:16. > :43:20.if you drink less there would be fewer rapes. Lots commenting on the

:43:21. > :43:25.tea video which we showed earlier. We posted it on social media if you

:43:26. > :43:28.want to watch it. Ross says, I love the tea sexual consent analogy, it

:43:29. > :43:32.should be shown in every school. One more for now, a balance in the

:43:33. > :43:35.discussion of rape should include for the purposes of education of

:43:36. > :43:42.youngsters that rape can take place within a relationship. That should

:43:43. > :43:51.also be taught too. That is it for today. Join us again today when

:43:52. > :43:53.Joanna will be here as I'm having more treatment for breast cancer.

:43:54. > :43:56.Have a good day.