06/11/2015

:00:09. > :00:11.Hello, it's Friday, it's 9:15am. I'm Joanna Gosling, welcome to the

:00:12. > :00:12.programme. We exclusively reveal why more than

:00:13. > :00:15.a hundred British Uber drivers are looking to take legal action against

:00:16. > :00:30.The only problem is that if you are not working, you are not earning.

:00:31. > :00:33.And the earnings are so much lower than I expected. And it's really

:00:34. > :00:34.starting to bite, now. The first British holidaymakers are

:00:35. > :00:37.due to arrive back from Sharm But passengers will only be

:00:38. > :00:42.allowed to carry on hand luggage. We'll take a look at why

:00:43. > :00:45.security is being stepped up. And we meet the women hoping to take

:00:46. > :00:48.part in a trial which will result in the first womb transplants to be

:00:49. > :01:02.carried out here in the UK. We're on BBC Two and the BBC News

:01:03. > :01:07.Channel until 11am this morning. Ahead we'll bring you

:01:08. > :01:10.the latest from Sharm as airlines start to bring British holidaymakers

:01:11. > :01:14.home after flights were cancelled over fears a bomb may have caused

:01:15. > :01:19.a Russian plane to crash. Security has been tightened

:01:20. > :01:32.and hold luggage will be We are starting to hear of confusion

:01:33. > :01:33.at the airport as passengers wait for flights, we will keep you

:01:34. > :01:35.updated. We'd like to hear

:01:36. > :01:37.from you throughout the programme. Texts will be charged

:01:38. > :01:39.at the standard network rate. And, of course, you can watch

:01:40. > :01:42.the programme online wherever you are via the BBC News app or

:01:43. > :01:44.our website, bbc.co.uk/Victoria. And you can also subscribe to all

:01:45. > :01:47.our features on the news app, by going to "add topics"

:01:48. > :01:56.and searching "Victoria Derbyshire." First this morning, the taxi company

:01:57. > :02:03.Uber is worth billions of pounds. The firm, based in the US,

:02:04. > :02:06.runs a smartphone app which allows users to hail a cab

:02:07. > :02:11.at the touch of the button. But what about the drivers? More

:02:12. > :02:15.than 100 richest drivers are looking to take legal action against the

:02:16. > :02:16.company. -- more than 100 at Icher drivers.

:02:17. > :02:18.The drivers are currently treated as self-employed,

:02:19. > :02:21.but they want full worker status and the rights that go with it.

:02:22. > :02:25.It's easy to lose a sense of connection living in a city...

:02:26. > :02:26.But when you bring people together...

:02:27. > :02:32.It's happening on the ground and around the world every day.

:02:33. > :02:34.Whatever you think of Uber, you can't say it's short of

:02:35. > :02:37.The tech company was founded just six years ago in San Francisco.

:02:38. > :02:41.It's now worth ?30 billion and growing fast.

:02:42. > :02:45.Uber's mission is to go to every major city in the world and roll-out

:02:46. > :02:51.an efficient, convenient, elegant transportation system.

:02:52. > :02:53.I like to think that Uber is creating

:02:54. > :02:59.Uber started off in London and now it's in nine or ten big

:03:00. > :03:04.The idea, the boss says, is to be in every single major UK

:03:05. > :03:08.If you haven't used it before, this is how it works.

:03:09. > :03:11.So you turn your smartphone on, and the first thing you see is

:03:12. > :03:18.And you select where you want to be picked up from,

:03:19. > :03:22.and then it sends it all out to other Uber drivers in the area.

:03:23. > :03:27.One of them can accept that and brings up a photo of

:03:28. > :03:30.the driver, the car, the registration plate and says how long

:03:31. > :03:36.Like I say, in this case, four minutes, and you just go down to the

:03:37. > :03:41.But in this brave new world, not everyone is happy.

:03:42. > :03:44.James Farrar has been an Uber driver for almost a year.

:03:45. > :03:46.Like all the others, he is self-employed.

:03:47. > :03:49.Now he's part of the group taking legal action against the company

:03:50. > :04:01.You know, you can switch on the app and work whenever you want, you can

:04:02. > :04:07.The only problem is that if you're not working, you're not earning.

:04:08. > :04:10.And the earnings are so much lower than I expected, and

:04:11. > :04:17.And you're noticing a change, are you?

:04:18. > :04:20.Is it now more difficult to make money now, in your mind,

:04:21. > :04:27.The effect is that, though, you know, there's a certain amount

:04:28. > :04:30.of money you need to earn each day, and you just had to stay out longer

:04:31. > :04:35.The main problem, says James, is the number of cars on the street.

:04:36. > :04:38.Since last year, the number of British drivers Uber's books has

:04:39. > :04:47.At the same time, Uber has cut the fares that customers pay

:04:48. > :04:50.and next week will increase the commission it takes from new

:04:51. > :04:55.My average net in July was ?5.03 and hour, well below minimum wage.

:04:56. > :05:01.So if you want to cover your costs and keep the family afloat,

:05:02. > :05:07.But, at the end of the day, it's your choice, right?

:05:08. > :05:09.I mean, you don't have to work for Uber.

:05:10. > :05:17.You could work for someone else, get another job.

:05:18. > :05:20.Yeah, it's true, but Uber has still aggressively come

:05:21. > :05:22.into the market, I think those opportunities to work for other

:05:23. > :05:31.James and the other drivers involved in the legal action say the way Uber

:05:32. > :05:33.operates means they're not really self-employed entrepreneurs at all,

:05:34. > :05:35.but working for the company, and so should get

:05:36. > :05:39.Lawyers say more than 100 Uber drivers, backed by the GMB union,

:05:40. > :05:44.are now looking to take similar action, with the first case is

:05:45. > :05:49.What we want to do is make sure that these drivers get workers rights,

:05:50. > :05:51.so it's the rights that anybody who works is entitled to.

:05:52. > :05:54.And were talking about things like minimum wage, the right to

:05:55. > :06:06.A lot of these drivers work 50, 60, 70 hours per week.

:06:07. > :06:11.They should be entitled to paid time off for doing that work.

:06:12. > :06:16.It's great that these new technology companies exist, butt all we're

:06:17. > :06:20.asking is that they treat people who work for them in the same way that

:06:21. > :06:30.At the centre of this row is the relationship between Uber

:06:31. > :06:34.We've been passed copies of the contracts which drivers now have

:06:35. > :06:37.to sign, and what is interesting is if you compare the contracts these

:06:38. > :06:40.days from the earlier ones from a couple of years ago, so

:06:41. > :06:45.Now the new contracts are at pains to point out there is no

:06:46. > :06:47.partnership between both sides and, in fact, rather confusingly, drivers

:06:48. > :06:51.These documents also set out the terms under

:06:52. > :06:55.which a driver can be deactivated from the system, as they put it.

:06:56. > :06:57.So you're no longer sacked under this arrangement,

:06:58. > :07:04.And that includes things like dropping below a certain star

:07:05. > :07:08.rating, as set by the people in the back of your car, and also here

:07:09. > :07:11.if you say anything that may cause harm to Uber's brand, reputation or

:07:12. > :07:13.business, so presumably that means if a driver says anything

:07:14. > :07:16.disparaging about the company, under these terms and conditions they can

:07:17. > :07:26.Being able to log on and log off as I please.

:07:27. > :07:31.It is only a small number taking legal action

:07:32. > :07:34.and there will, of course, be many happy Uber drivers, as company

:07:35. > :07:48.You can't work whenever you want. The money is going directly into my

:07:49. > :07:53.account. At Uber's new headquarters in London skyscraper, the boss says

:07:54. > :07:56.this way of working is about choice. Many of our drivers have moved from

:07:57. > :08:00.traditional jobs where they had to work described shifts and a certain

:08:01. > :08:03.number of hours a week and it was difficult to take time off, they

:08:04. > :08:08.have chosen to work with Uber because about flexibility. The fact

:08:09. > :08:12.you can work literally whenever you want, that is the flexibility they

:08:13. > :08:17.are looking for. But can't you have that and have write like holiday pay

:08:18. > :08:20.and the minimum wage? Looking at what drivers take home is something

:08:21. > :08:26.we look at very carefully. Most of the drivers using the Apple actually

:08:27. > :08:30.take home around ?15 or ?16 an hour. BC their costs vary hugely depending

:08:31. > :08:34.on whether they rent or own and a number of other factors, but the

:08:35. > :08:41.majority are making around ?10 or ?12 an hour after those costs. It is

:08:42. > :08:45.an injustice, and injustice would Uber is doing to you. But this is

:08:46. > :08:49.not the first anger about Uber and the way it works. There have been

:08:50. > :08:53.small-scale demonstrations in the US. Last month there was a strike by

:08:54. > :08:58.drivers that overpay. It would appear the impact was limited.

:08:59. > :09:03.In this country, it is not easy to get a sense of how many drivers are

:09:04. > :09:08.unhappy, but we tried anyway with a small unscientific test. Can I get

:09:09. > :09:12.in the front, is that OK? Over one afternoon, we took five short Uber

:09:13. > :09:17.rides across London as normal passengers. We asked each of the

:09:18. > :09:24.drivers about the company, their job and the money they were taking home.

:09:25. > :09:29.We are not pretending it was scientific, that of the drivers we

:09:30. > :09:34.spoke to, two said they liked the flexibility of Uber and had no real

:09:35. > :09:37.concerns. One said he was very happy with the arrangement, with no

:09:38. > :09:41.downside, really. Another said the only reason his old colleagues are

:09:42. > :09:46.not signing up is because they would have to start paying tax. But two of

:09:47. > :09:49.the drivers we spoke to were worried about income is being squeezed. One

:09:50. > :09:55.said it is harder to make money because there are too many drivers

:09:56. > :09:59.that are. And from another, it is about time Uber took responsibility

:10:00. > :10:02.like a proper empire. Is there a danger that Uber is a

:10:03. > :10:06.company that wants to have its cake and eat it? You want to treat these

:10:07. > :10:11.drivers are self-employed entrepreneurs, that on the other

:10:12. > :10:14.hand tell them exactly what to do. Uber drivers are free to work

:10:15. > :10:19.whenever and wherever they want. So long as they live up to the quality

:10:20. > :10:24.standards on the platform. I don't know of any of the opportunities

:10:25. > :10:30.that are so flexible. So the future of transportation, maybe. But this

:10:31. > :10:33.row is bigger than that. Some people think the way Uber does business

:10:34. > :10:37.could be a model not just for cab companies bid for the rest of the

:10:38. > :10:41.economy. And if this happens, this one firm could change far more than

:10:42. > :10:44.the way we get home on a wet Friday night.

:10:45. > :10:46.You can watch and share Jim Reed's exclusive investigation

:10:47. > :10:50.by going to our programme page - that's at bbc.co.uk/Victoria.

:10:51. > :10:56.Comments coming in from you on this. An anonymous text says, as a

:10:57. > :11:03.taxi driver for 15 years in Leeds, all I have seen is more taxis older

:11:04. > :11:06.than all others. They undercut everyone by offering discounts and

:11:07. > :11:12.subsequently work has gone down overall by nearly 50%, and this for

:11:13. > :11:17.a 20% commission. Nate on Facebook, if they are complaining about

:11:18. > :11:19.conditions, how rubbish their cars? Another person says they have

:11:20. > :11:25.friends in the USA who almost lost everything because of Uber.

:11:26. > :11:29.We'll have the latest on the security crisis at Sharm

:11:30. > :11:32.el-Sheikh Airport where stranded Brits are preparing to fly home.

:11:33. > :11:34.And we'll meet three women hoping to benefit from pioneering womb

:11:35. > :11:42.transplant surgery to give them a chance of having children.

:11:43. > :11:46.More details are emerging about the reasons behind the Government's

:11:47. > :11:48.decision to restrict flights to Sharm el-Sheikh following the

:11:49. > :11:56.It's understood British investigators believe an explosive

:11:57. > :11:59.device was place in the hold of the aircraft some time before take-off.

:12:00. > :12:01.The Government is said to have received new information

:12:02. > :12:03.on Wednesday, based on so-called chatter picked up

:12:04. > :12:08.Thousands of British tourists stranded in Sharm el-Sheikh will be

:12:09. > :12:11.flown home today, two days after flights to and from the resort were

:12:12. > :12:19.Scheduled flights remain suspended but planes are being laid on

:12:20. > :12:22.especially. Passengers will only be allowed to

:12:23. > :12:25.take hand luggage on board, with the Government arranging to

:12:26. > :12:32.take the rest Obviously were faced with a

:12:33. > :12:36.situation where we had serious concerns about the incident as far

:12:37. > :12:39.as the Russian plane last Saturday was concerned. We wanted to put in

:12:40. > :12:44.place to get as many people back as quickly as we could in light with

:12:45. > :12:47.the fact that yesterday was a big changeover day. There should have

:12:48. > :12:53.been around 15 flights yesterday, which were all cancelled. It was a

:12:54. > :12:57.matter of how do we give it in the safest way to reassure ourselves,

:12:58. > :13:00.and for the safety of those passengers, that we put these

:13:01. > :13:06.particular restrictions into operation. There is some confusion,

:13:07. > :13:11.it seems, at Sharm el-Sheikh. We have been speaking to one passenger

:13:12. > :13:17.who is due to be on the easyJet flight to Gatwick from Sharm

:13:18. > :13:20.el-Sheikh, due to leave at 11am local time, nine o'clock our time,

:13:21. > :13:28.should have already left. He has been told he will not get away until

:13:29. > :13:32.7pm local time, 5pm our time, and even that is not certain. He still

:13:33. > :13:36.has his luggage with him. That is one passenger who was due to go on

:13:37. > :13:41.the easyJet flight, due to be the first flight out today. It seems it

:13:42. > :13:46.has been delayed. We are trying to get into it with easyJet and will

:13:47. > :13:47.keep you updated. -- trying to get into virtual is easyJet.

:13:48. > :13:50.Lawyers say that more than 100 British drivers for the high-tech

:13:51. > :13:52.taxi company Uber are looking to take legal action against it.

:13:53. > :13:55.The firm, based in the US, runs a smartphone app

:13:56. > :13:58.which allows users to hail a cab at the touch of the button.

:13:59. > :14:00.The drivers are currently treated as self-employed,

:14:01. > :14:03.but they want full worker status and the rights that go with it.

:14:04. > :14:05.The personal details of more than 150,000 customers and more than

:14:06. > :14:08.15,000 bank details were accessed by hackers in last month's cyber

:14:09. > :14:14.The telecoms company insists the information accessed can't,

:14:15. > :14:20.Universities in England who prove they offer high-quality

:14:21. > :14:22.teaching could be allowed to raise tuition fees above ?9,000

:14:23. > :14:27.Universities Minister Jo Johnson says students should have better

:14:28. > :14:33.Sir Cliff Richard has been interviewed for a second time

:14:34. > :14:37.by police investigating alleged sexual assaults three decades ago.

:14:38. > :14:39.A spokesman for the singer confirmed he has been interviewed voluntarily

:14:40. > :14:46.He was not arrested or charged, and he continues to describe the claims

:14:47. > :14:54.Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh.

:14:55. > :14:59.It's all about the magic of the Cup today, Hugh.

:15:00. > :15:06.Good morning. The magic of the cup this weekend. First round proper. I

:15:07. > :15:10.will be talking to one of written's newest reality TV stars.

:15:11. > :15:13.You may have seen the documentary Class of '92 - Out of their League

:15:14. > :15:16.It chronicles the takeover of Salford City Football Club

:15:17. > :15:19.by former Manchester United stars Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Nicky Butt

:15:20. > :15:23.They've managed to turn the club's fortunes around, and get promotion,

:15:24. > :15:26.as they try to achieve the dream of becoming a Football League Club.

:15:27. > :15:29.And tonight they'll have an historic first ever appearance in the first

:15:30. > :15:33.They have a very tough task playing Notts County who are three

:15:34. > :15:37.But we'll be talking to star striker Gareth Seddon about what it's been

:15:38. > :15:41.like being on the show, the added pressure that comes from all the new

:15:42. > :15:44.media attention and what it's been like to have the Class of '92

:15:45. > :15:46.watching his every move, both on and off the field.

:15:47. > :15:59.Competition for me today! Join us at just after 10am.

:16:00. > :16:01.Thousands of tourists are hoping to come home from Sharm el-Sheikh

:16:02. > :16:04.later today, with airlines expected to run special flights

:16:05. > :16:07.EasyJet says nine flights could operate,

:16:08. > :16:11.The Foreign Office said it hoped the flights would go ahead, but security

:16:12. > :16:18.There is some confusion at Sharm el-Sheikh about what time the

:16:19. > :16:23.flights are likely to take off. Yesterday,

:16:24. > :16:25.the Prime Minister says it's more likely than not that a terrorist

:16:26. > :16:28.bomb brought down a Russian airliner Investigators

:16:29. > :16:31.in Britain's security service suspect someone with access to

:16:32. > :16:36.the aircraft's baggage compartment inserted an explosive device

:16:37. > :16:38.inside or on top of the luggage just That comes from intercepted

:16:39. > :16:51.communications between militants in the Sinai where

:16:52. > :16:53.the plane came down. But Egypt says that's

:16:54. > :16:54.just propaganda. But the British Government has put

:16:55. > :16:57.in place extra safety measures which means British tourists will be

:16:58. > :17:00.flying back with only hand luggage. Larger luggage that would normally

:17:01. > :17:03.be checked into the hold of a plane The Transport Secretary,

:17:04. > :17:05.Patrick McLoughlin, explained why these extra security

:17:06. > :17:17.measures had been imposed. We were faced with a situation where

:17:18. > :17:20.we had serious concerns about the incident as far as the Russian plane

:17:21. > :17:25.last Saturday was concerned and we wanted to put in place to get as

:17:26. > :17:29.many people back as quickly as we could in line with the fact that

:17:30. > :17:33.yesterday was a big changeover day. There should have been around 15

:17:34. > :17:37.flights yesterday which were all cancelled. It was a matter of, how

:17:38. > :17:44.do we do it in the safest way to real -- to reassure ourselves that

:17:45. > :17:47.we put particular restrictions into operation?

:17:48. > :17:48.Other countries share Britain's concerns.

:17:49. > :17:57.We have spent a lot of time making sure our own investigators and

:17:58. > :18:03.intelligence community figures out what is going on before we make any

:18:04. > :18:05.definitive pronouncements. It is certainly possible there was a bomb

:18:06. > :18:11.on board. Alastair Rosenschein is a former

:18:12. > :18:15.British Airways pilot. Thank you for coming in. Is it always obvious to

:18:16. > :18:21.pilots when security is not up to scratch? Yes. The pilots and cabin

:18:22. > :18:26.crew go through the same security checks as the passengers. We go to

:18:27. > :18:30.many airports around the world on a regular basis. You notice when

:18:31. > :18:34.security is not as tight in some places as in another. When you fly

:18:35. > :18:39.to certain destinations where you know there is a history of terrorist

:18:40. > :18:45.attacks or you know there is insurgency and political differences

:18:46. > :18:51.or religious ones, you are a little bit more aware of the security. In

:18:52. > :18:56.this case, Sharm el-Sheikh, it is not that far from a major conflict

:18:57. > :19:01.zone and there have been attacks there before. Ten years previously.

:19:02. > :19:07.Would you feel nervous as a pilot going in and out of airports where

:19:08. > :19:11.security is not up to scratch? No, nervous is not the word I would use,

:19:12. > :19:15.alert is a better description. You look at the people around the

:19:16. > :19:19.aircraft, you look at baggage lying around. We are doing the same as

:19:20. > :19:24.what passengers would do, pay more attention to everything around you

:19:25. > :19:29.from a security point of view. In the end, everyone is in the hands of

:19:30. > :19:33.the people in charge of security? Absolutely. We still employing

:19:34. > :19:39.people in security, not just in this country, around the, on what is

:19:40. > :19:42.effectively a minimum wage. -- around the world. You pay people

:19:43. > :19:47.very little and you will get that standard. I am not saying all

:19:48. > :19:50.security staff of pork, most are very good. But you also have to

:19:51. > :19:58.recognise in some countries where they play considerably more, where

:19:59. > :20:01.they recruit from a higher level of academic background, you get better

:20:02. > :20:08.is curative -- I am not saying all security staff are poor. You get

:20:09. > :20:14.better security. The job has changed a great deal from when I started in

:20:15. > :20:22.the 70s until when I retired in 2005. I was airborne in the 9/11

:20:23. > :20:25.incident, coming back from Tokyo. After that, everything changed

:20:26. > :20:34.dramatically. At that point, security became a really significant

:20:35. > :20:38.part of the job. Not least you can no longer have visitors on the

:20:39. > :20:45.flight deck, we restrict visits to the cabin, the door is locked. It

:20:46. > :20:50.focuses your mind on security. Is it something discussed among the people

:20:51. > :20:57.working on the plane? Yes. In what way? How you might deal with it. In

:20:58. > :21:04.the past, instructions went out to flight crew to always do what a

:21:05. > :21:10.hijacker says, be compliant. After 9/11, everything changed. In the

:21:11. > :21:14.end, there is nothing that a pilot can do if you are feeling concerned

:21:15. > :21:18.when you are going through security and you get on the plane and you

:21:19. > :21:23.have been nervous and you know somewhere has got a record of their

:21:24. > :21:27.being security issues? I cannot say I was ever nervous from a security

:21:28. > :21:33.point of view, as you said. Slightly more alert. If we thought at any

:21:34. > :21:38.time that our aircraft was not fully safe and secure, of course we would

:21:39. > :21:42.do something about it. We are not in a position to make those security

:21:43. > :21:48.judgment calls. It would not be clear to the pilot about what is

:21:49. > :21:53.going on? Not at all. I will tell you a funny story. Shortly after

:21:54. > :21:56.9/11, I was on my way to New York and I boarded the aircraft and as we

:21:57. > :22:01.walked through the upper deck, there were a number of gentlemen wearing

:22:02. > :22:05.the same sort of clothes you might associate with the Taliban in

:22:06. > :22:08.Afghanistan. We got into the flight deck and I turned to my colleague

:22:09. > :22:15.and I said, what do you think the group... ? He said, they look dodgy.

:22:16. > :22:19.I said, I will go back and have a chat with them. I tried to think

:22:20. > :22:25.what I might say to them going back and I came up with something. I

:22:26. > :22:30.said, we are very lucky to have nice seats appear. Are you going on

:22:31. > :22:36.holiday or business? -- up here. In perfect English, we are a group of

:22:37. > :22:40.consultant doctors going to a medical conference. My prejudice is

:22:41. > :22:44.out the window! You are talking about the prejudices that came in

:22:45. > :22:48.and the jitteriness that came in. Would you expect people working on

:22:49. > :22:54.the flights to be more jittery after what has happened now? After any

:22:55. > :22:58.incident, people are more alert. They are more concerned about it.

:22:59. > :23:03.After a little while, a few months go by, they become complacent again.

:23:04. > :23:09.It is dangerous. Both in terms of security staff, airline crews, and

:23:10. > :23:13.the travelling public. We cannot afford in this day and age to be

:23:14. > :23:18.complacent about any security issues. You remind me of what it

:23:19. > :23:26.used to be like in London, it has happened over the years, high alert

:23:27. > :23:31.over abandoned rides. Is that the sort of thing you are talking about?

:23:32. > :23:35.-- bags. Are there things people should not be complacent about? You

:23:36. > :23:40.are right. The sort of thing is the travelling public should look out

:23:41. > :23:44.for our unattended bags, leaving your own bag unattended. You must

:23:45. > :23:52.pack your bag yourself and take it with you and it must be next to you

:23:53. > :23:56.at all times. If it is not with you, there is a security implication.

:23:57. > :24:02.Somebody can get access to it. We know from a previous incident at

:24:03. > :24:06.Heathrow Airport that an Irish woman's boyfriend who in fact was a

:24:07. > :24:12.Middle Eastern terrorist placed a bomb in her bag and she was pregnant

:24:13. > :24:16.as well with his child. The security at Heathrow which is very good

:24:17. > :24:24.spotted this and avoided an absolute catastrophe. Once the baggage goes

:24:25. > :24:27.through the checks, it goes through various procedures and gets on the

:24:28. > :24:32.flight, from what you know of the way it works, can you see an obvious

:24:33. > :24:36.point at which a bomb could be put on and not be detected? There are

:24:37. > :24:41.some focus on the cargo which is more commonly flown on passenger

:24:42. > :24:45.planes than perhaps it used to be. Airlines make money from carrying

:24:46. > :24:50.passengers and bags and also cargo and that makes up a very important

:24:51. > :24:55.part of the revenue stream. But there are certain checks done on

:24:56. > :24:59.cargo and I cannot really go into them. What I know about it is that

:25:00. > :25:06.there security checks done it. The real weak link of the personnel. Who

:25:07. > :25:11.is allowed air side, the other side of security? Our work is going

:25:12. > :25:17.through the same security checks as they come to work as the travelling

:25:18. > :25:21.passengers and flight crew? I can say with absolute certainty that

:25:22. > :25:25.many airfields in the world, this is not happening, they are not taking

:25:26. > :25:29.it seriously with regular staff. What background checks are done on

:25:30. > :25:34.the staff? Airline security is as safe as the weakest airport that it

:25:35. > :25:40.flies to around the world. That is an issue. It is impossible to get

:25:41. > :25:45.complete security. Everybody in the industry knows this. You try to do

:25:46. > :25:49.the best you can. The best you can is not always being done at all

:25:50. > :25:52.destinations. Some of those passengers stranded have been

:25:53. > :25:56.talking about how they are feeling a bit nervous about the prospect of

:25:57. > :26:01.coming back. Would you expect that to translate to everybody on the

:26:02. > :26:05.plane 's? I am sure I would feel nervous if I was in Sharm el-Sheikh

:26:06. > :26:09.right now. The focus now is on security, no bags going on board the

:26:10. > :26:14.aircraft. I can assure you that they are probably safer than any other

:26:15. > :26:18.place that any of the airlines fly to at the moment. Sharm el-Sheikh

:26:19. > :26:24.will be safe right now, no chance will be taken. There will be greater

:26:25. > :26:29.focus. After any incident, everybody becomes more alert, more aware,

:26:30. > :26:33.takes their job more seriously as far as security is concerned. After

:26:34. > :26:36.a period of time is concerned, the complacency comes back. Ten years

:26:37. > :26:43.since the major terrorist incident at Sharm el-Sheikh were several

:26:44. > :26:49.bombs killed quite a few people. Security changes are made, liquids

:26:50. > :26:56.have been banned on flights, since 9/11. That is still in force. It is

:26:57. > :27:03.a dramatic measure to say that passengers cannot take their hold

:27:04. > :27:09.luggage on the plane. If they cannot be sure of security, how long might

:27:10. > :27:13.that situation in Jura? We are talking explosives, they come in

:27:14. > :27:21.different forms, solids, malleable, liquids -- in duration. That is why

:27:22. > :27:26.they have a ban on liquids, only small quantities allowed on board.

:27:27. > :27:31.There were previous incidents or likely to be incidents. We had the

:27:32. > :27:34.shoe bomber, a bomb in his shoe, he was so incompetent that he was

:27:35. > :27:41.unable to detonate it, thank goodness. One has to try and be as

:27:42. > :27:47.secure as possible. And still allow people to continue living normally

:27:48. > :27:52.in an open society which is what we live in, and open society. The

:27:53. > :27:55.enemies of an open society create the problem, people who do not like

:27:56. > :28:00.the way we live, our freedom of speech, way of life, they want to

:28:01. > :28:04.change it. If we increase security to a certain point, we will no

:28:05. > :28:08.longer live in an open society, we will live in a closed one where

:28:09. > :28:12.people no longer have freedom of speech and movement. There is a risk

:28:13. > :28:14.and we take that risk and we accept the risk. Alastair Rosenschein,

:28:15. > :28:25.thank you very much. Coming up... A gay clergyman

:28:26. > :28:26.prevented from coming a hospital chaplain tells us how disappointed

:28:27. > :28:32.he is to lose a discrimination case. More than 500 women say they want to

:28:33. > :28:36.take part in a trial which will see the first ever womb transplants

:28:37. > :28:39.carried out here in the UK. Doctors were given

:28:40. > :28:41.the go-head just over four weeks ago to perform the first ten operations

:28:42. > :28:43.following success in Sweden. In a moment, we'll talk to three

:28:44. > :28:47.women who are all hoping to be the some of the first in

:28:48. > :29:43.the country to have the procedure. Here with us are three women hoping

:29:44. > :29:46.to be some of the first Lauren Fowler and Sophie Lewis were

:29:47. > :29:51.both born without a womb and Rachel Edmonds had a hysterectomy

:29:52. > :29:54.nearly ninA years ago because her It's the first time they've

:29:55. > :30:01.all met each other. Also here is Richard Smith,

:30:02. > :30:03.a consultant gynaecologist at the Queen Charlotte's and Chelsea

:30:04. > :30:19.Hospital in London who has been Thank you all for coming in. Good to

:30:20. > :30:22.have you here. Lauren and Sophie, I said you were born without a womb,

:30:23. > :30:30.tell us when you first knew that that was the case? I was 15, a month

:30:31. > :30:34.off my 16th birthday. I went to the GP surgery and they referred me for

:30:35. > :30:39.investigated surgery, because ultrasounds had shown up nothing

:30:40. > :30:44.conclusive. When I had those procedures they found I had a

:30:45. > :30:49.syndrome which meant I was born without the womb. How did you feel?

:30:50. > :30:56.Devastated. Even though I was 15, it pulled my world apart at the time. I

:30:57. > :31:02.knew what it meant. I knew what the future was going to, basically,

:31:03. > :31:08.holding some shape or form. Sophie? Similar story, I was 16, I didn't

:31:09. > :31:13.have my period, so my mum took me to the doctors. After ultrasounds as

:31:14. > :31:18.well, laparoscopy, it transpired I had no womb. And the same sort of

:31:19. > :31:22.feeling. Obviously at the age of 16 you are not really thinking about a

:31:23. > :31:26.family so much as doing your GCSEs and having fun with your friends,

:31:27. > :31:30.but it is the realisation that it will be difficult to have children

:31:31. > :31:35.in the future. Shock outburst, upset, then you deal with it. As you

:31:36. > :31:39.get older, it is more of a realisation that it will be

:31:40. > :31:44.difficult. Rachel, you are in a slightly different position in that

:31:45. > :31:49.you have no womb as the result of a hysterectomy. What happened? From my

:31:50. > :31:53.very first period I was in excruciating pain, I struggled for

:31:54. > :31:58.all might teenage years, and in my 20s it got so much worse. I had

:31:59. > :32:05.multiple laparoscopy is which bound endometriosis. That was not the main

:32:06. > :32:10.problem, I had multiple fibroids and endometrial cis within the actual

:32:11. > :32:13.body of the womb. I had a real issue with the womb to the point that I

:32:14. > :32:19.could not get out of bed because the pain was so bad, I had a hot water

:32:20. > :32:23.bottle strapped to me every day for years, constant painkillers, it was

:32:24. > :32:28.excruciating. My surgeon worked with me and we try to find everything we

:32:29. > :32:31.possibly could to help you, and nothing worked, so a 206I had to

:32:32. > :32:36.make the heartbreaking decision that I could not live like this any more,

:32:37. > :32:41.I had to have it removed. -- so at the age of 26. Knowing I would never

:32:42. > :32:47.be able to have my own child. But at that point I did not have a life, I

:32:48. > :32:50.could not get out of bed, the pain was so unbearable. Now the pain has

:32:51. > :32:56.gone, you can focus on what it has meant in the long run? It is so hard

:32:57. > :33:02.to remember the pain, I'd like that part of my life out, you don't want

:33:03. > :33:06.to remember pain, so I had days when I think, do they do the right

:33:07. > :33:10.thing? -- I blanked that part of my life out. But friends and family

:33:11. > :33:14.reminds me of how bad it was, so I know I made the right decision, that

:33:15. > :33:18.I have just got married and you think the next logical step is to

:33:19. > :33:23.have the family, that is not an option for me until, maybe, now.

:33:24. > :33:27.Here is the man who might be able to change things for you and other.

:33:28. > :33:33.Richard, you have worked done this for 19 years, and the go-ahead has

:33:34. > :33:38.finally been given. Talk us through? We have a big team of people. A few

:33:39. > :33:42.weeks ago we got ethics committee approval, we need to go through a

:33:43. > :33:46.process of selection now, and we have a separate committee for that.

:33:47. > :33:55.So that we select appropriate patients. The three people here this

:33:56. > :33:58.morning very much epitomise the tragic stories, really, of the

:33:59. > :34:05.bigger group of people who have come to us. How many have come to you? We

:34:06. > :34:09.had over 200 people on our list month ago, since we made the

:34:10. > :34:14.announcement about the ethics committee approval, it is over 500.

:34:15. > :34:20.So lots of women on the list. How many will you take forward? In this

:34:21. > :34:24.first series, we have ethics committee approval to perform ten

:34:25. > :34:30.transplants, we expect to do that over two years, hoping to start next

:34:31. > :34:33.year. Who will you choose? -- how would you choose? Everybody has a

:34:34. > :34:40.heartbreaking story. Absolutely right. Partly because of that... I

:34:41. > :34:44.have met many, many women in my clinic at Charing Cross, and the

:34:45. > :34:49.selection process, it is impossible for somebody like me who meets

:34:50. > :34:53.everybody to be the arbiter. We have actually followed very much the

:34:54. > :34:56.Swedish model that they used, they had a stratification process, and we

:34:57. > :35:04.have a separate committee which has lay members and nursing members, as

:35:05. > :35:09.well as medical, that'll be part of the process. What have you freed in

:35:10. > :35:14.so far in terms of being part of the process, and how much you are aware

:35:15. > :35:19.of what is required? When I first found out I made contact. A

:35:20. > :35:22.gentleman replied asking me questions about my background, that

:35:23. > :35:27.was the first initial process, and more recently there has been a much

:35:28. > :35:30.more in-depth questionnaire, medical questionnaire, that is as far as it

:35:31. > :35:38.has gone at this point in time. Sophie? Miners is a random story. I

:35:39. > :35:44.wanted to run the London Marathon, but I wanted to run for a charity

:35:45. > :35:49.that meant something to me, so I contacted so many adoption,

:35:50. > :35:52.surrogacy, IVF charities and I sort of just stumbled across the

:35:53. > :35:59.hospital. I registered my interest and they said, unfortunately we can

:36:00. > :36:03.provide... Sponsor you, but you could run for hours. At the time

:36:04. > :36:08.they said, do you want to chat about your condition, there is something

:36:09. > :36:12.we want to talk to you about. I put it for quite a few months, I was not

:36:13. > :36:19.sure if I wanted to speak about condition. I plucked up courage,

:36:20. > :36:22.went and had a chat, found out all transplants and I knew instantly

:36:23. > :36:26.this was something I was really, really interested in. Had you

:36:27. > :36:32.previously been contemplating adoption surrogacy? They are your

:36:33. > :36:36.next steps. If you want children, you go down the surrogacy or

:36:37. > :36:39.adoption route. I would still not rule that out. If I don't get picked

:36:40. > :36:44.for the transplant I would go down those avenues. They are worthwhile

:36:45. > :36:49.ways of doing it. It is just that this is more appealing, to be able

:36:50. > :36:55.to carry your own child is a huge gift for a woman. To be able to do

:36:56. > :36:58.that would be incredible. Lauren, when you heard about the womb

:36:59. > :37:03.transplants, what did you think about the possibility of carrying

:37:04. > :37:09.your own child? It was amazing. It felt surreal. I have followed it

:37:10. > :37:13.since I was about 15, I had heard of it, they had been trying it in

:37:14. > :37:17.Turkey, I think. I had followed the once done in Sweden for a long time

:37:18. > :37:23.and seen their failures, and obviously we have seen their great

:37:24. > :37:26.success. So I was very aware. But, like Sophie, I had been following

:37:27. > :37:32.surrogacy and done a lot of research on it. But to know that there is a

:37:33. > :37:35.chance that can child bear ourselves, it overrules every

:37:36. > :37:40.option. It is not an easy option, Richard. Talk us through how this

:37:41. > :37:45.procedure will work and how difficult it will be, not just for

:37:46. > :37:50.the surgeons but the women having the transplant? The process will

:37:51. > :37:55.start, the selected group will be on the list and they will need to be

:37:56. > :38:00.available over a 1 to two year period to be called when appropriate

:38:01. > :38:04.organs become available. So what amount of notice could that be? At

:38:05. > :38:09.the point where it happens will probably be 24 hours. So people will

:38:10. > :38:14.either carry a pager or be available by phone, they will get that call,

:38:15. > :38:18.and at that point they will have 24 hours to get to the place where the

:38:19. > :38:27.plantation will take place. We are intending to retrieve the organs

:38:28. > :38:31.from heart beating, brain dead donors, which is different from the

:38:32. > :38:36.Swedish, for used breathing donors, but the process is the same. They

:38:37. > :38:42.expect to take you know suppressive therapy and be rejected -- and be

:38:43. > :38:46.observed for year for signs of rejection. If everything is going

:38:47. > :38:50.well, and embryo transfer will take place. Everyone will have to have

:38:51. > :38:55.had a minimum number of embryos derived from their own eggs, stored

:38:56. > :38:59.in cold storage before they go through the transplantation process.

:39:00. > :39:03.Then they will have the embryo transfer, and hopefully

:39:04. > :39:08.approximately nine months later a Caesarean section. They'd be

:39:09. > :39:11.delivered. Then six months after that they will have a choice of

:39:12. > :39:16.whether to have one more child oughta have a completion his threat

:39:17. > :39:21.me. The reason for the completion hysterectomy is to minimise the

:39:22. > :39:26.exposer to Unison and therapy. There will be for two to three years, or

:39:27. > :39:33.maybe four or five, rather than other organs, where it is lifelong

:39:34. > :39:36.exposure. It sounds gruelling. Why are you prepared to put yourself

:39:37. > :39:44.through something like that for the ability to be able to carry your own

:39:45. > :39:48.child? How important is it for you? This has given us hope, we never had

:39:49. > :39:53.that before. This is huge. I feel like you become a mum when you start

:39:54. > :39:57.to try to conceive, you do all the right things to make your body

:39:58. > :40:02.prepare for pregnancy and everything, that is when you become

:40:03. > :40:05.a mum. To carry my own child means the world to me. Compared to the

:40:06. > :40:10.surgery I have had already, I am not fazed by this at all. I will do

:40:11. > :40:15.everything to care for that child from in utero, and to be a mum. You

:40:16. > :40:19.have already said how much it would mean to you, Sophie? To feel a child

:40:20. > :40:25.growing inside you, watching your body change shape, that is all part

:40:26. > :40:31.of the pregnancy. Just to create the bond with a child. I don't think

:40:32. > :40:35.words can explain it, it is a huge gift. From being told that the age

:40:36. > :40:42.of 16 that your roots are surrogacy and adoption, two, ten or 15 years

:40:43. > :40:45.down the line, being told there is a possibility you can carry your own

:40:46. > :40:53.child, it is incredible, there are no words. Richard, we have a

:40:54. > :40:58.question from Doctor Gill on Twitter, will female babies from

:40:59. > :41:02.womb transplants be more likely to inherit the same conditions? That is

:41:03. > :41:07.a very good question. There is no evidence for that. Obviously there

:41:08. > :41:12.is a lot updated through surrogacy from women who have had this

:41:13. > :41:20.syndrome, it is not the suggestion at all. What about the unions and

:41:21. > :41:24.drugs and how they might impact? There is a vast experience of

:41:25. > :41:28.immunosuppressant drugs in real and -- renal transplant patients, tens

:41:29. > :41:32.of thousands of women who have had kidney transplants have gone on to

:41:33. > :41:38.have babies, the excess risk to babies is less the 1%, it is very

:41:39. > :41:42.minimal. It is a commonly asked question, there is the perception

:41:43. > :41:46.that it is high risk, but that is untrue, it is only a slight

:41:47. > :41:52.increase. This has been 19 years of your life, how do you feel about it.

:41:53. > :41:54.You are sitting here with Lauren, Sophie and Rachel, three people for

:41:55. > :42:01.whom the work you are doing could change their world. Humbled, I had

:42:02. > :42:05.to say, is how I feel. You guys are all very, very brave to be here this

:42:06. > :42:12.morning. The whole process we are going through, I know, is very

:42:13. > :42:17.fraught, for all of us. Lauren, how do you feel at the start,

:42:18. > :42:21.potentially, of what will be a difficult journey for those

:42:22. > :42:26.embarking on at about what it will entail and whether you really could

:42:27. > :42:31.be up for that? I am excited. This will change not only, possibly, mine

:42:32. > :42:36.and these two lovely ladies' lives, but for many women in the country,

:42:37. > :42:42.hopefully, one day. The hope of the dream coming true, the final stage

:42:43. > :42:47.of it, it outweighs all the negatives and the worry that come

:42:48. > :42:51.along with it. But maybe the blob watching who might be thinking, as

:42:52. > :42:57.we have already discussed, surrogacy and adoption are options. -- maybe

:42:58. > :43:01.people are watching. You would be putting yourself through a very

:43:02. > :43:04.difficult surgery and a very difficult period of time for

:43:05. > :43:09.something that is not a life-threatening condition. What

:43:10. > :43:13.would you say to those people? I don't think they can make a

:43:14. > :43:17.judgment. People make judgments on it, they say, you're putting

:43:18. > :43:22.yourself at risk, but until you have been in our shoes you will never

:43:23. > :43:27.know the need or the want to child by yourself. Surrogacy itself is not

:43:28. > :43:31.easy. It is a long, long path, just like adoption, and it comes at a

:43:32. > :43:34.very high cost. You have got the whole legal side of it and there is

:43:35. > :43:40.a risk that, at the end, the surrogates can keep that child.

:43:41. > :43:46.There is a risk that that moment, the Sara get mum, can actually say,

:43:47. > :43:49.due know what, I want this baby. -- the surrogates mum. Is the desire to

:43:50. > :43:56.carry a child always in your mind, Rachel? Yes, it has been there ever

:43:57. > :44:00.since I made the decision, which I had to make myself, which meant I

:44:01. > :44:04.cannot do that. It was so gut-wrenching. Especially since I

:44:05. > :44:09.got married. I am asked on a daily basis, when would you have kids? I

:44:10. > :44:14.Facebook page started advertising hits' clothes as soon as I changed

:44:15. > :44:18.my status to married. Everyday I am reminded I cannot have a child. How

:44:19. > :44:21.are your families about the situation? There must be

:44:22. > :44:29.difficulties for them and sensitivities? Obviously, for my

:44:30. > :44:34.mum, and probably their mums, it is difficult to see your child has to

:44:35. > :44:40.go through that. There is always the fear, it is a huge operation, will

:44:41. > :44:45.it all be OK? My family, personally, has been amazingly supportive. My

:44:46. > :44:50.fiance has been there for me through the whole process. I think that

:44:51. > :44:54.supports keeps you going. It is amazing. Friends and family, my

:44:55. > :44:59.friends have been overwhelming, the amount of support they have given

:45:00. > :45:06.me. Richard, just tell us when you will know for, and when the people

:45:07. > :45:11.involved will know? Sometime early next year. One of the biggest blocks

:45:12. > :45:16.at the moment is funding, it is important to say that we are not

:45:17. > :45:23.intending in anyway to impact on NHS resource, which likely follows on,

:45:24. > :45:28.which is why we have eight charity, Womb Transplants Uk, which is paying

:45:29. > :45:34.the entirety of the cost of the first ten cases. You're probably

:45:35. > :45:38.talking 2020 by the time that series is finished, hopefully many of those

:45:39. > :45:42.women will have had babies. Beyond that, funding is much harder to

:45:43. > :45:48.ascertain. I have a dream that the charity may end up raising enough

:45:49. > :45:52.money to pay for many, many more, but we do not know. We will be

:45:53. > :45:54.following everything you do, thank you all very much for coming in.

:45:55. > :46:11.Good luck with everything. Some breaking news. Rescue flights

:46:12. > :46:17.for we had heard from one passenger who was due to fly out on the first

:46:18. > :46:22.easyJet flight which was going to leave an hour ago, it was not

:46:23. > :46:25.happening, and now we are hearing flights have been suspended. Stay

:46:26. > :46:30.with us for the very latest updates. We will have the latest from Sharm

:46:31. > :46:36.el-Sheikh with thousands of British tourists still waiting to fly home.

:46:37. > :46:44.Now let us get the very latest weather. Some incredible pictures.

:46:45. > :46:51.Some spectacular clouds spotted over the past 24 hours. In Sydney, we

:46:52. > :47:00.have had huge clouds over the past 24 hours, shelf clouds, produced

:47:01. > :47:04.under powerful storms. The outflow kicks out huge clouds. Spectacular

:47:05. > :47:15.sight. The cloud rolling in. This is as it is? It is speeded up.

:47:16. > :47:22.Making it more dramatic. Some people have described it as a cloud

:47:23. > :47:29.tsunami. Rolling out underneath the huge storm. Very spectacular. How

:47:30. > :47:33.unusual is it? Fairly unusual to see such a spectacular shelf cloud. What

:47:34. > :47:40.is not unusual is very powerful store is in Sydney, late spring,

:47:41. > :47:44.early summer. They are formed by updraughts and downdraughts within

:47:45. > :47:48.the cumulative this clouds and we get big drafts of air coming

:47:49. > :47:53.underneath spilling out and hitting the ground and it scoops up the warm

:47:54. > :47:59.up air and that rises up above the cooler air and condenses quickly. We

:48:00. > :48:04.get the spectacular shelf cloud forming. They can be indicative of

:48:05. > :48:10.powerful winds. Very dangerous as well as spectacular to watch. What

:48:11. > :48:17.is the weather in store for us? Much quieter. A lot of rain on the cards.

:48:18. > :48:22.So bored of that! There is a lot of cloud across the

:48:23. > :48:27.country. Outbreaks of patchy rain working west to east today. Some

:48:28. > :48:31.will be heavy across parts of the South of England and northern

:48:32. > :48:36.Scotland. But some bright intervals. It will not be raining all day. By

:48:37. > :48:41.3pm, we are expecting quite a lot of mist and Merc in the south-west of

:48:42. > :48:49.England and Wales. It will be mild wherever you are. As we cross the

:48:50. > :48:54.Irish Sea, a little bit more in the way of brightness across Northern

:48:55. > :48:59.Ireland. Scotland, we will continue to see the cloud increase this

:49:00. > :49:05.afternoon. Outbreaks of rain. It will be mild and breezy. Feeling

:49:06. > :49:10.blustery at times. Some rain for parts of northern England. Further

:49:11. > :49:15.south, cloudy, continuing with the outbreaks of rain, heavy at times,

:49:16. > :49:20.gusty along the English Channel coasts. This evening, many people

:49:21. > :49:25.will be heading out to firework displays. For most places, clear

:49:26. > :49:28.skies with the rain clearing away. Cloud and rain lingering in southern

:49:29. > :49:35.and south-eastern parts of England for a time. We will see a quieter

:49:36. > :49:39.spell of weather overnight. Saturday, the next batch of rain

:49:40. > :49:45.heads in from the south-west. Quite a wet day, particularly across

:49:46. > :49:48.England and Wales. Blustery too. Still very mild. Light rain for

:49:49. > :49:52.Northern Ireland and southern Scotland. The northern half of

:49:53. > :49:56.Scotland will probably see the best of the dry unsettled weather.

:49:57. > :50:03.Saturday and into Sunday, Remembrance Sunday, the next area of

:50:04. > :50:09.low pressure. -- dry and settled weather. The West bearing the brunt

:50:10. > :50:16.of the wet and windy weather. Still mild in the south and east. The

:50:17. > :50:21.forecast for a member on Sunday, we keep the mild theme but it will be

:50:22. > :50:26.feeling blustery and breezy -- Remembrance Sunday. Rain moving east

:50:27. > :50:34.through the course of the day. Things remaining unsettled. Quite a

:50:35. > :50:38.lot of isobars on the map. Further low pressure piling up in the

:50:39. > :50:42.Atlantic heading our way. The outlook into the new working week,

:50:43. > :50:46.things staying pretty autumnal and unsettled. Mild for the time of

:50:47. > :50:51.year. Brighter spells and outbreaks of rain.

:50:52. > :50:56.Welcome to the programme, if you've just joined us.

:50:57. > :51:00."There's chas and anger at Sharm el-Sheikh" -

:51:01. > :51:03.that's what one passenger hoping to fly home today has told us.

:51:04. > :51:10.All flights from the UK into Sharm el-Sheikh have been suspended by the

:51:11. > :51:11.Egyptian authorities. We will get the latest on the fast moving

:51:12. > :51:14.situation. We exclusively reveal why more than

:51:15. > :51:17.100 British Uber drivers are looking to take legal action

:51:18. > :51:27.against the high-tech taxi company. The only problem is if you are not

:51:28. > :51:31.working, you are not earning and the earnings are so much lower than I

:51:32. > :51:40.expected. It is really starting to bite now. We have been hearing how

:51:41. > :51:43.pioneering surgery is providing hope to women who cannot have children.

:51:44. > :51:49.To know there is a chance that we can better job than ourselves, it

:51:50. > :51:53.mildly overrules every other option. -- that we can bear children

:51:54. > :51:56.ourselves. And we speak to a gay clergyman who

:51:57. > :51:59.lost a discrimination case after his new post as a hospital

:52:00. > :52:22.chaplain was withdrawn when he EasyJet says the Egyptian

:52:23. > :52:26.authorities have stopped UK planes flying into Sharm el-Sheikh but some

:52:27. > :52:31.planes already at the resort will take off later today. It is hoped

:52:32. > :52:35.thousands of tourists could be flown back to the UK later. There is

:52:36. > :52:39.confusion at the airport itself about the details but more

:52:40. > :52:43.information is emerging about the reasons behind the Government's

:52:44. > :52:46.decision to suspend flights to Sharm el-Sheikh following the downing of a

:52:47. > :52:51.Russian passenger jets. It is understood British investigators

:52:52. > :52:56.believe and expose advice was put in the hole before take-off. The

:52:57. > :52:59.Government says it has received new information on Wednesday based on

:53:00. > :53:02.so-called chatter picked up by intelligence agencies. We were faced

:53:03. > :53:09.with a situation where we had serious concerns about the incident

:53:10. > :53:12.as far as the Russian plane last Saturday was concerned and we wanted

:53:13. > :53:16.to put in place to get as many people back as quickly as we could

:53:17. > :53:21.in light of the fact that yesterday was a big changeover day. There

:53:22. > :53:25.should have been around 15 flights yesterday which were all cancelled.

:53:26. > :53:32.It was a matter of, how do we do it in the safest way to reach --

:53:33. > :53:37.reassure ourselves that we put particular restrictions into

:53:38. > :53:40.operation? There is real confusion at Sharm el-Sheikh about what is

:53:41. > :53:46.going to be happening with the British people who were expecting to

:53:47. > :53:50.fly home today. EasyJet has put back one of its flights at least which

:53:51. > :53:56.was going to leave this morning. Let us speak to a man we spoke to

:53:57. > :54:00.yesterday, he is at Sharm el-Sheikh today waiting to find out what is

:54:01. > :54:09.happening. Tell us what is happening today? I am going through to one of

:54:10. > :54:13.the planes now. We found out this morning that six of the planes that

:54:14. > :54:19.were meant to come have not come from London. It is noisy because I

:54:20. > :54:28.am going to my plane right now. One second. Sorry. All right. You are

:54:29. > :54:33.actually getting on a plane which as far as you know is going to leave,

:54:34. > :54:39.is it? At what time? It is supposed to depart now, as soon as the. There

:54:40. > :54:43.were six flights that were meant to fly from London to come here but as

:54:44. > :54:49.far as I could find out from officials that they told us there

:54:50. > :54:52.was so much traffic here that they could not possibly accommodate the

:54:53. > :54:58.ten extra flights coming, the empty flights coming from easyJet and the

:54:59. > :55:04.other airlines. They had to delay them until this evening. It has

:55:05. > :55:08.created quite a lot of chaos and tension, understandably. A lot of

:55:09. > :55:13.shouting and anger and a lot of people have had to go back to their

:55:14. > :55:18.hotels. We have had messages from easyJet informing us that it was a

:55:19. > :55:21.political situation whereby they were still negotiating with the

:55:22. > :55:27.Egyptian government to allow these planes to come here to pick people

:55:28. > :55:33.up. We are still uncertain. I would love you to get on this. There were

:55:34. > :55:37.a couple of extra seats on one of the planes departing now. These

:55:38. > :55:44.planes were here before the incident happened. They are taking off today.

:55:45. > :55:50.We are looking at things in the airport and it is very, very busy,

:55:51. > :55:54.clearly. Talk us through how you managed to get on that flight.

:55:55. > :55:58.Presumably, there are loads of people in exactly the same boat

:55:59. > :56:04.trying to bag a seat. I am travelling by myself. I have no one

:56:05. > :56:08.else with me. I was staying behind because I was trying to talk to

:56:09. > :56:12.someone about where to stay and they said I would not be able to leave

:56:13. > :56:17.Sharm el-Sheikh for a while. Luckily, I was able to talk to one

:56:18. > :56:21.of the attendants at the easyJet desk at the last minute who told me

:56:22. > :56:25.there were an extra couple of seats left over and they put me on one of

:56:26. > :56:30.them. That is the plane I am about to go on. How do you feel about

:56:31. > :56:37.getting on the flight? Nervous at all? I put my full faith in the

:56:38. > :56:46.British system and how they have come here and all of the security

:56:47. > :56:50.measures and you can tell there is bolstered security has been put in

:56:51. > :56:54.place, there is a lot of rigorous checking going on in the airport.

:56:55. > :56:59.The fact that the UK Government has allowed planes to take off today, it

:57:00. > :57:06.indicates they are satisfied with the security, so I am comfortable

:57:07. > :57:10.with the fact I am able to get on the plane. I can feel a little bit

:57:11. > :57:14.more comfortable knowing our government has allowed us to flight

:57:15. > :57:18.and they feel the security measures are adequate. Did you have luggage

:57:19. > :57:22.you would have wanted to check in? What has happened with it? I had a

:57:23. > :57:27.carry on suitcase which they did not allow me to carry on. I was only

:57:28. > :57:32.able to take out my laptop which I have taken onto the plane with me.

:57:33. > :57:38.The rest of your luggage will be transported back separately?

:57:39. > :57:43.Precisely. My laptop, they had to verify it was working, I had to log

:57:44. > :57:49.in with my password and check it was actually a laptop. There is quite a

:57:50. > :57:53.lot of security checking. As we were coming in, every car, everything was

:57:54. > :57:57.being checked by the security officials. There was quite a long

:57:58. > :58:07.queue outside into the airport of vehicles. The bolstered security.

:58:08. > :58:14.How long until you are going to take off? I think it is going to be

:58:15. > :58:19.another half an hour. It should not be that long. We hope it all goes

:58:20. > :58:23.smoothly. Thank you for talking to us again on the programme.

:58:24. > :58:26.Lawyers say that more than 100 British drivers for the high-tech

:58:27. > :58:28.taxi company, Uber, are looking to take legal action against it.

:58:29. > :58:31.The firm, based in the US, runs a smartphone app

:58:32. > :58:34.which allows users to hail a cab at the touch of the button.

:58:35. > :58:36.The drivers are currently treated as self-employed,

:58:37. > :58:41.but they want full worker status and the rights that go with it.

:58:42. > :58:43.The personal details of more than 150,000 customers and more than

:58:44. > :58:46.15,000 bank details were accessed by hackers in last month's cyber

:58:47. > :58:58.Considerably fewer than originally thought.

:58:59. > :59:00.Sir Cliff Richard has been interviewed for a second time

:59:01. > :59:02.by police investigating alleged sexual assaults three decades ago.

:59:03. > :59:05.A spokesman for the singer confirmed he has been interviewed voluntarily

:59:06. > :59:09.He was not arrested or charged and he continues to describe the claims

:59:10. > :59:17.Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh.

:59:18. > :59:22.So, what is it like playing for a football club owned

:59:23. > :59:24.by five European Cup winners, especially when you're playing

:59:25. > :59:27.in the Northern Premier League, six divisions below the top flight?

:59:28. > :59:31.Tonight, Salford City, who are owned by the Neville brothers, Gary and

:59:32. > :59:33.Phil, Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs - all former Manchester

:59:34. > :59:37.United stars - will be playing in their first ever FA cup first-round

:59:38. > :59:41.tie. They've also been the subject of a BBC documentary called the

:59:42. > :59:52.It's fair to say striker and model Gareth Seddon plays a leading role.

:59:53. > :59:55.Welcome to non-league football. 15 players lining up for three cold

:59:56. > :00:16.showers. Welcome to non-league. I came to Salford the same as

:00:17. > :00:21.everyone else, I got sold the dream. You always have to practice the

:00:22. > :00:30.thousand yard stare. The camera is there, you have to look 1000 yards

:00:31. > :00:36.into the distance. The space is that wide. Come inside, turnout, you stay

:00:37. > :00:47.wide. I am thinking, he is like a barman. President of Salford! Here

:00:48. > :00:52.he is, what has it been like taking part in the documentary? Have you

:00:53. > :00:58.had any feedback about the thousand yard stare? It has been amazing. It

:00:59. > :01:02.has all been good, to be fair. I was worried but there have been so many

:01:03. > :01:07.people coming up to me and saying, show us the thousand yard stare. It

:01:08. > :01:17.is all in good fun. I really enjoyed it.

:01:18. > :01:24.What about the owners of the club? Is that added pressure for you? It

:01:25. > :01:30.has been amazing, having them back, but it is added treasure. We want to

:01:31. > :01:34.do well against them, but every single team and player that comes to

:01:35. > :01:38.face us, they have the added pressure to do well in front of them

:01:39. > :01:44.as well. It makes it harder every single game for us. Device have they

:01:45. > :01:51.had much advice for you? Have been brilliant, on and off the pitch.

:01:52. > :01:55.Everything from diet, training and nutrition, to little things like how

:01:56. > :02:01.they should prepare for games and generally looking after us. What is

:02:02. > :02:04.it like, on a personal level, your relationships with them? Do they

:02:05. > :02:10.come into the changing room, do they have a drink with the boys? Gary

:02:11. > :02:13.came in once, I don't think he was too impressed with me! They have

:02:14. > :02:18.really looked after us, they come down to training, obviously,

:02:19. > :02:22.depending on how much weight they have put down over the last few

:02:23. > :02:27.weeks, they will come down and tried to get rid of a few pounds. But to

:02:28. > :02:32.have the likes of Paul Scholes, Gary Neville and Nicky Butt training with

:02:33. > :02:37.you, it has been amazing. You have been doing well on the field, but it

:02:38. > :02:40.is a really tough game against League 2 side Notts County. But you

:02:41. > :02:45.have played in the football league yourself and the FA Cup before? You

:02:46. > :02:50.are injured for tonight. Have you any advice for your team? I am

:02:51. > :02:54.injured, I am gutted I have not played. -- cannot play. I faced

:02:55. > :02:59.Notts County for Kettering once in the second round, I was lucky enough

:03:00. > :03:04.to score the winning goal. People still talk to me about it and it was

:03:05. > :03:08.ten years ago. I hope one of our lads to make can be a hero and in

:03:09. > :03:14.ten or 20 years' time people are still talking about Salford City

:03:15. > :03:21.Reds to you can see that match live on BBC Two from 7:30pm tonight,

:03:22. > :03:25.except in Wales. I will be back with the latest on Sam Burgess and the

:03:26. > :03:29.Roper league goals at around 10:30am. See you then. -- rugby

:03:30. > :03:31.league goals. Hello, thank you

:03:32. > :03:33.for joining us this morning. Welcome to the programme,

:03:34. > :03:35.if you've just joined us. We're on BBC Two and the

:03:36. > :03:37.BBC News Channel until 11am. Your contributions to this programme

:03:38. > :03:40.and your expertise really is key. Texts will be charged

:03:41. > :03:42.at the standard network rate. And of course, you can watch

:03:43. > :03:45.the programme online wherever you are, via the BBC News app or

:03:46. > :03:47.our website, bbc.co.uk/Victoria. And you can also subscribe to all

:03:48. > :03:53.our features on the news app, by going to add topics and

:03:54. > :04:01.searching "Victoria Derbyshire". There is confusion at Sharm

:04:02. > :04:07.el-Sheikh about repatriations flights due to fly today. EasyJet

:04:08. > :04:12.says some have been delayed after it reported earlier that they were now

:04:13. > :04:15.it seems that planes already there will be allowed to take off but new

:04:16. > :04:20.planes being sent to pick up Brits will not be allowed by the Egyptian

:04:21. > :04:23.authorities to land. One passenger has described it as chaos.

:04:24. > :04:25.Yesterday, the Prime Minister says it's more

:04:26. > :04:28.likely than not that a terrorist bomb brought down a Russian airliner

:04:29. > :04:33.Meanwhile, Egypt's prime minister says he is angry flights were halted

:04:34. > :04:36.after security was increased at the resort's airport ten months ago

:04:37. > :04:51.Chris Barrett is an aviation security expert based in Dubai, and

:04:52. > :04:58.we can talk to him via Skype. What are your thoughts on what is going

:04:59. > :05:02.on here? First of all, I think it is important to state that I don't know

:05:03. > :05:08.what information the British Government has, rightly so. What I

:05:09. > :05:12.can say to you is that the statement issued by the Prime Minister, whilst

:05:13. > :05:20.he said very clearly that while this may not be a warm, to actually talk

:05:21. > :05:24.about it in such words was indicating that there is very good

:05:25. > :05:30.information, and the Government no choice but to ask. -- whilst this

:05:31. > :05:35.may not be a bomb. The Egyptian authorities say security was

:05:36. > :05:38.improved after Britain raised concerns a few months ago. How risky

:05:39. > :05:44.was Sharm el-Sheikh perceived to be before all of this? I think that is

:05:45. > :05:50.an unfair assessment. There is a rolling programme where airports

:05:51. > :05:53.around the world are visited by various organisations and

:05:54. > :05:59.governments, including the International Civil Aviation

:06:00. > :06:03.Authority. Recommendations are made. That is not to say that they are

:06:04. > :06:08.particularly whisky, what it does say is there are risks in the system

:06:09. > :06:12.that the Government would have preferred to have seemed closed

:06:13. > :06:18.off. It is not quite as clear-cut it first seems. They have stopped

:06:19. > :06:23.passengers being able to travel with hold luggage, just whatever they can

:06:24. > :06:29.carry is all they are allowed to take. Does that sound sensible to

:06:30. > :06:33.you? In view of the information we have, and I can only go in view of

:06:34. > :06:39.what has been said, it would seem that is sensible at this time. The

:06:40. > :06:42.importance is the safety of the passengers travelling. The

:06:43. > :06:48.Government has sufficient concerns. It is not in Government interest to

:06:49. > :06:52.take these measures, you have seen the anger it causes with the

:06:53. > :06:57.Egyptian Government and the damage caused to the airlines and the tour

:06:58. > :07:01.operators. They obviously have what they believe to be strong

:07:02. > :07:06.information and, therefore, yes, it is a sensible move. Thank you very

:07:07. > :07:18.much indeed for giving us your perspective. Let's talk to Jonathan

:07:19. > :07:23.Marcus, our world affairs reporter. What is the latest? A fair amount of

:07:24. > :07:28.confusion, we expected 29 flights to the UK today, taking those whose

:07:29. > :07:31.holidays had ended and were already booked on cancelled flights and

:07:32. > :07:36.others who might want to return home anyway. In the last few minutes

:07:37. > :07:41.easyJet, one of the operators, has said their flights will not be

:07:42. > :07:45.flying back today. They are urging their customers to return to their

:07:46. > :07:48.hotels. It is not clear yet whether this is just easyJet or whether

:07:49. > :07:55.there are other companies' flights involved. They seem to suggest it is

:07:56. > :07:59.a scheduling problem with the Egyptian aviation authorities. Lots

:08:00. > :08:05.of the additional flights are due to leave today. Certainly not the

:08:06. > :08:10.smooth, well machine that people were hoping for after all the

:08:11. > :08:13.frustrations of the problems associated with the holidays. It has

:08:14. > :08:19.been described as chaos by one passenger. We are getting a bit more

:08:20. > :08:23.clarity with what is going on with easyJet, it seems that the issue is

:08:24. > :08:25.that planes are not being allowed to fly into Sharm el-Sheikh to make up

:08:26. > :08:31.the roster of flight they were hoping. So two out of ten easyJet

:08:32. > :08:35.flight will be able to light -- leave today, carrying British

:08:36. > :08:41.passengers. How long can this go on for? It could clearly taken about

:08:42. > :08:46.days to get over the backlog, and there is no question of new flights

:08:47. > :08:52.going as carrying holiday-makers, if people still want to trouble. There

:08:53. > :08:55.are also the restrictions about hold baggage, people only being allowed

:08:56. > :08:59.to travel with hand baggage, the hold baggage will be going

:09:00. > :09:06.separately. That is another area of complexity. The flights to carry

:09:07. > :09:10.that baggage, it needs to be reconciled with the passengers when

:09:11. > :09:13.they arrive home. It is complex, but one imagines if there are not

:09:14. > :09:18.particular problems to do with the capacity and so on, it is a busy

:09:19. > :09:22.airport but not by any means amongst the world's most busy, we would

:09:23. > :09:26.imagine it would be carried out within a number of days, that

:09:27. > :09:34.depends as much of the Egyptian authorities as anybody else. Thank

:09:35. > :09:39.you very much. We are getting further clarification, as I was just

:09:40. > :09:43.mentioning it is that easyJet have been told that aid flights they were

:09:44. > :09:48.planning to fly from the UK to Sharm el-Sheikh will not be allowed to

:09:49. > :09:53.land, and seven of those were due to return to the UK, one was due to fly

:09:54. > :09:58.to Italy. -- to the UK from Sharm el-Sheikh. Those flights will not be

:09:59. > :10:02.happening, we are hearing that at Sharm el-Sheikh the authorities are

:10:03. > :10:05.saying they simply cannot accommodate all the extra aeroplanes

:10:06. > :10:12.at the airport. Two easyJet flight will go ahead. The first Brits will

:10:13. > :10:14.still be flying back to the UK today, we will keep you updated on

:10:15. > :10:17.what is going on. Earlier this morning, we brought you

:10:18. > :10:19.our exclusive investigation The taxi company is now worth

:10:20. > :10:22.?30billion and operates in ten cities

:10:23. > :10:25.across the UK with more to come. Well, we've been told more than 100

:10:26. > :10:29.are now looking to take legal action against the firm over pay

:10:30. > :10:31.and conditions. In a moment we will hear from Uber

:10:32. > :10:34.users and what black cab drivers But first here's Jim Reed

:10:35. > :10:39.with this exclusive report. It's happening on the ground

:10:40. > :10:45.and around the world every day. Whatever you think of Uber,

:10:46. > :10:48.you can't say it's short of The tech company was founded just

:10:49. > :10:56.six years ago in San Francisco. It's now worth ?30 billion

:10:57. > :11:00.and growing fast. If you haven't used it before,

:11:01. > :11:03.this is how it works. So you turn your smartphone on,

:11:04. > :11:06.and you select where you want to be picked up from,

:11:07. > :11:09.and then it sends it all out to all One of them can accept that

:11:10. > :11:17.and brings up a photo of Like I say, in this case, four

:11:18. > :11:24.minutes, and you just go down to the But in this brave new world,

:11:25. > :11:28.not everyone is happy. James Farrar has been

:11:29. > :11:31.an Uber driver for almost a year. Like all the others,

:11:32. > :11:33.he is self-employed. Now he's part of the group taking

:11:34. > :11:54.legal action against the company The flexibility is great. The

:11:55. > :11:59.incomers too lo, you are at a lot of financial risk. You carry all the

:12:00. > :12:03.business risk, they will take 20%. James and the other drivers involved

:12:04. > :12:07.in the legal action say the way Uber operates needs they are not really

:12:08. > :12:10.self-employed entrepreneurs at all, but working for the company, and so

:12:11. > :12:15.should get the rights that go with it. Lawyers say more than 100 Uber

:12:16. > :12:20.drivers are looking to take some action.

:12:21. > :12:23.What we want to do is make sure that these drivers get workers rights,

:12:24. > :12:26.so it's the rights that anybody who works is entitled to.

:12:27. > :12:29.And we're talking about things like minimum wage, the right to

:12:30. > :12:34.It's great that these new technology companies exist, but all we're

:12:35. > :12:38.asking is that they treat people who work for them in the same way that

:12:39. > :12:54.Adu the's new headquarters, it says it is all about choice. -- at

:12:55. > :12:59.Uber's new headquarters. Many of them had to work prescribed hours.

:13:00. > :13:02.They have chosen to work with us because of the flexibility. It is

:13:03. > :13:07.likely an employment tribunal will hear both sides over the coming

:13:08. > :13:09.months. If Uber losers, it may have to pay compensation and change the

:13:10. > :13:12.way it does business in the future. And to watch

:13:13. > :13:15.and share the full film head to our Let's talk now to Steve Grainger,

:13:16. > :13:19.who's been driving a black cab for over 20 years and Imogen Reid,

:13:20. > :13:29.who uses Uber. Thank you both for coming in. Steve,

:13:30. > :13:33.you have seen Jim's report, do you have sympathy for Uber drivers? It

:13:34. > :13:38.is difficult for me to have sympathy for the opposition. We like to have

:13:39. > :13:43.a friendly, competitive attitude to one another. Essentially, you are a

:13:44. > :13:48.self-employed driver if you are a licensed private hire or black taxi.

:13:49. > :13:53.You are self-employed. You know, I work for a radio circuit and I pay

:13:54. > :14:00.for the privilege of getting jobs from them. We are service partners.

:14:01. > :14:08.I think that if I was to try and get employment status from that

:14:09. > :14:10.company, they would probably throw it out. There is no way I could

:14:11. > :14:19.become employed by that radio service provider, because I am Steve

:14:20. > :14:24.Grainger, taxi driver, not Steve Grainger, driving exclusively for

:14:25. > :14:28.them. Where I would sympathise with Uber drivers as they can only work

:14:29. > :14:33.through Uber, using the app. Perhaps they have an argument to say that we

:14:34. > :14:40.only get our work from you, perhaps how Addison Lee would only work with

:14:41. > :14:47.their liveried vehicles. It is a complex picture, the issue of the

:14:48. > :14:52.implement right is. -- employment rights. In a broader sense, Uber has

:14:53. > :14:59.come about and shaken up the market, has it impacted on you? It has

:15:00. > :15:09.encouraged other apps to up their game. In the same model but Uber

:15:10. > :15:13.work, there are licensed taxi at. But all of these crowding in on the

:15:14. > :15:20.black taxis, lack taxi drivers have been out protesting. Does it have an

:15:21. > :15:25.impact on your pocket? I think so. There is a massive increase in the

:15:26. > :15:31.number of minicabs, licensed private hire, and I think probably because

:15:32. > :15:37.by using the Uber app, it against... It circumvents the rules,

:15:38. > :15:41.if you like, whereby they are effectively applying for hire on an

:15:42. > :15:44.apple. But punter friendly, people know what they are getting, Imogen,

:15:45. > :15:56.why do you use them? It is easy and most of the journey

:15:57. > :16:02.is are cheaper than black cabs. I have sympathy and they are

:16:03. > :16:08.wonderful, black cabs. No one wants them to decline. But as a student,

:16:09. > :16:13.price is a priority. It is easy, I can track it, I can leave a review,

:16:14. > :16:22.it is very consumer friendly. Is that the reason you do not use black

:16:23. > :16:25.cabs, too expensive? Basically, yes. I was talking earlier with imaging,

:16:26. > :16:35.very nice chap, and I was trying to explain there are apps pretty much

:16:36. > :16:40.identical to Uber's. They offer discounts and fixed prices and you

:16:41. > :16:46.do not have to pay anything... You are saying black taxis are not more

:16:47. > :16:51.expensive than Uber? I cannot say for sure but they are categorically

:16:52. > :16:59.the same, our fares. From what I am aware of, Uber have a sliding pay

:17:00. > :17:04.scale. If things get a little bit busier, they are effectively running

:17:05. > :17:08.a metered fare that increases or decreases. That is something that

:17:09. > :17:15.intervene is the regs. You said something earlier about how the apps

:17:16. > :17:21.take a certain percentage of your wage and you take the rest so the

:17:22. > :17:25.firm must be higher than Uber. No, we charge our fair at the same as if

:17:26. > :17:30.you got in on the street, you could stick out your hand, come to the

:17:31. > :17:33.taxi rank, get into my lovely clean taxi with my knowledgeable driving

:17:34. > :17:39.skills and I can take you where you want to go. Anyone can do that with

:17:40. > :17:44.sat nav. Categorically not. I would challenge anybody to get the sat

:17:45. > :17:50.nav... You name two places and I will be there by the time you have

:17:51. > :17:56.figured out which way to hold the sat nav. Anyone stuck under a bridge

:17:57. > :18:01.or stuck next to a tall building and they have seen the sat nav going,

:18:02. > :18:07.hang on, it does not note where you are going. It tells you... I have

:18:08. > :18:14.one and it tells me I can turn right from Hogan viaduct and to Farringdon

:18:15. > :18:20.Road. We have heard lots of stories about people getting in trouble with

:18:21. > :18:26.sat navs! I rest my case. Are you worried the black cab might be a

:18:27. > :18:32.dying breed? Partly, yes, but I think we are moving with the times.

:18:33. > :18:42.I do not want to plug different apps for taxis, but we offer that

:18:43. > :18:46.service and we offer fixed prices and special deals. You can track

:18:47. > :18:49.your taxi, you know when it is arriving. It does not cost you

:18:50. > :18:55.anything other than the metered fare. If I was to say, I will be

:18:56. > :19:02.your service Partner, I will turn up at your house, as I have said, in my

:19:03. > :19:07.knowledgeable clean taxi, the meter will start when you get in. When you

:19:08. > :19:14.get out, that is how much the fair is. The app deducts 10%. I am losing

:19:15. > :19:20.money, you are not, but you are getting a superior service. Thank

:19:21. > :19:23.you very much. Let us know what you think about that as well.

:19:24. > :19:28.We speak to a gay clergyman who lost a discrimination case

:19:29. > :19:31.after his new post as a hospital chaplain was withdrawn when he

:19:32. > :19:35.And we'll bring you the story of the London baby girl who's become the

:19:36. > :19:44.first person in the world to receive a revolutionary genetic treatment.

:19:45. > :19:48.Reports of confusing scenes at Sharm el-Sheikh Airport,

:19:49. > :19:53.as thousands of stranded British tourists wait to fly home.

:19:54. > :19:57.EasyJet say Egyptian authorities have stopped them from flying

:19:58. > :20:00.into the airport, putting some of their rescue flights at risk.

:20:01. > :20:03.It had been hoped that all UK holidaymakers

:20:04. > :20:14.at the Red Sea resort would be repatriated by the end of today.

:20:15. > :20:29.Two flights are believed to have taken off. More information is

:20:30. > :20:31.emerging about the reasons behind the Government's decision to suspend

:20:32. > :20:35.flights. It's understood British

:20:36. > :20:37.investigators believe an explosive device was put in the plane's hold

:20:38. > :20:40.some time before take-off. The Government is said to have

:20:41. > :20:42.received new information on Wednesday based on so-called chatter

:20:43. > :20:45.picked up by intelligence agencies. Lawyers say that more than 100

:20:46. > :20:47.British drivers for the high-tech taxi company, Uber, are looking

:20:48. > :20:50.to take legal action against it. The firm, based in the US,

:20:51. > :20:52.runs a smartphone app which allows users to hail a cab

:20:53. > :20:55.at the touch of the button. The drivers are currently treated

:20:56. > :20:57.as self-employed, but they want full worker status

:20:58. > :21:00.and the rights that go with it. TalkTalk says the bank accounts

:21:01. > :21:03.and sort codes of more than 15,000 people were accessed during last

:21:04. > :21:05.month's cyber attack, considerably The telecoms company believes

:21:06. > :21:08.the personal data of 4% Sir Cliff Richard has been

:21:09. > :21:15.interviewed for a second time by police investigating alleged

:21:16. > :21:18.sexual assaults three decades ago. A spokesman for the singer confirmed

:21:19. > :21:21.he has been interviewed voluntarily He was not arrested or charged and

:21:22. > :21:27.he continues to describe the claims Let's catch up with all

:21:28. > :21:35.the sport now and join Hugh. The road to FA Cup

:21:36. > :21:50.glory starts tonight. Yes, it does. You can watch Salford

:21:51. > :21:53.city against Notts County tonight on BBC Two.

:21:54. > :21:55.Here are the day's main sporting headlines.

:21:56. > :21:57.There were wins for Liverpool and Spurs

:21:58. > :22:01.Liverpool beat Rubin Kazan, while a late screamer from

:22:02. > :22:04.Moussa Dembele gave Tottenham victory over Anderlecht at White

:22:05. > :22:09.They were beaten 2-1 at home by Norwegian side Molde

:22:10. > :22:12.and they are bottom of their group and need to win their remaining two

:22:13. > :22:17.And Bath head coach Mike Ford says he still feels Sam Burgess could

:22:18. > :22:18.have been a great Rugby Union player.

:22:19. > :22:20.The club say they were committed to his development

:22:21. > :22:26.but understand his return to Australia for personal reasons.

:22:27. > :22:33.That is all the sport for this morning. More on BBC News throughout

:22:34. > :22:38.the day. Thank you very much. Let us bring

:22:39. > :22:43.you up to date with what is going on in Sharm el-Sheikh airport. A BA

:22:44. > :22:47.flight leaving Gatwick right now is about to get airborne and they are

:22:48. > :22:52.expecting it to land without problems at Sharm el-Sheikh. They

:22:53. > :22:57.will be picking up the UK passengers and returning as planned tonight.

:22:58. > :23:00.Different from easyJet which says it is not being allowed to take off

:23:01. > :23:05.from the UK to fly to Sharm el-Sheikh. We will continue to keep

:23:06. > :23:09.you updated. The first easyJet flight leaving Sharm el-Sheikh to

:23:10. > :23:12.return to the UK, as far as we know, has taken off.

:23:13. > :23:15.A gay clergyman who was prevented from taking up a post as a hospital

:23:16. > :23:18.chaplain has said he feels sick after an employment tribunal ruled

:23:19. > :23:23.Canon Jeremy Pemberton made history when he became the first British

:23:24. > :23:26.clergyman to marry his same-sex partner.

:23:27. > :23:32.But shortly after, he was told the bishop was withdrawing

:23:33. > :23:37.his licence and a job offer he had received was withdrawn.

:23:38. > :23:40.Despite this, he is still working as a hospital chaplain

:23:41. > :23:45.Now he says he's going to appeal the ruling.

:23:46. > :23:53.We are joined also by Reverend Ian Paul. He works in the same dioceses

:23:54. > :24:00.as Jeremy. Thank you for coming in. I said you felt sick when you heard

:24:01. > :24:04.the ruling, Jeremy. Yes, I was not surprised, to be honest. I was

:24:05. > :24:11.expecting to hear the result we got, but I was very disappointed.

:24:12. > :24:16.Why were you so disappointed? Marriage is a human rights, people

:24:17. > :24:21.have the right to marry or not to marry. In the Church of England, we

:24:22. > :24:24.have an article that says in the rules, priests can marry who they

:24:25. > :24:29.want to marry. You cannot marry people if it is not legal, but it

:24:30. > :24:35.was legal for me to marry. Article 32 says it is up to me who I choose

:24:36. > :24:40.to marry. I think the bishops were wrong to put out guidance saying,

:24:41. > :24:44.you cannot marry people, that is against our rules. I do not think

:24:45. > :24:47.they should have said that. What is your perspective? I think it is

:24:48. > :24:56.worth reflecting carefully on what the tribunal said. I was slightly

:24:57. > :25:00.surprised. Unexpected. Peter Tatchell has claimed the ruling set

:25:01. > :25:04.a precedent, it does not, it has simply clarified the law and the way

:25:05. > :25:09.it applied. The other thing the tribunal did not do is it did not

:25:10. > :25:13.evaluate the church's doctrine. It said, has the church got a clear

:25:14. > :25:17.doctrine? Yes. Has it been communicated? Yes. Have the bishops

:25:18. > :25:23.acted in line with the doctrine as expressed by the Church of end? Yes.

:25:24. > :25:26.Was Jeremy aware of that and the consequences? The communication

:25:27. > :25:32.shows that is the case. The question of what marriage is brings us back

:25:33. > :25:40.to the question of law in the UK. I disagree with all of those yes is,

:25:41. > :25:44.they are no for me. I am saying this is what the tribunal judgment said.

:25:45. > :25:49.That is why you were not surprise. It said I was discredited against

:25:50. > :25:53.also, but it said the Church of England have the right to do so.

:25:54. > :25:58.That is important to recognise that discrimination took place. I think

:25:59. > :26:01.people in this country are sickened by discrimination. They do not

:26:02. > :26:04.understand why getting married is something that should be punished.

:26:05. > :26:11.They think it is just disgusting, really. That is what they tell me.

:26:12. > :26:15.Someone like Jeremy is doing the right thing by committing to

:26:16. > :26:19.somebody else in love, why should the church disagree with that? In

:26:20. > :26:24.law, there are two kinds of discrimination, illegitimate, the

:26:25. > :26:28.kind that people are sickened by, as Jeremy mentioned, and there is

:26:29. > :26:33.legitimate discrimination. It is not legitimate if I am appointing

:26:34. > :26:37.someone to a job if they are Muslim. If someone is a candidate for

:26:38. > :26:40.Christian ministry, I am allowed to discriminate and the tribunal said

:26:41. > :26:44.two important things. They said it was very clear that Jeremy had not

:26:45. > :26:48.been discriminated against simply because he was gay and they used

:26:49. > :26:55.quite a lot of evidence about that. The second thing was the church has

:26:56. > :26:58.in law been granted permission for legitimate discrimination and that

:26:59. > :27:01.is to do with whether or not clergy are actually in line with the

:27:02. > :27:07.teaching of the church and if the... I was worried that if the

:27:08. > :27:14.tribunal had ruled in a different way, I think this is what Jeremy was

:27:15. > :27:18.asking, asking clergy to disregard the teaching of the church, and the

:27:19. > :27:22.tribunal said, they cannot. No, I was doing what I thought the

:27:23. > :27:28.teaching of the church allowed me to do, which in article 32 says, I can

:27:29. > :27:31.marry who I choose. That article was formed before anyone thought of

:27:32. > :27:37.same-sex marriage but the intention was to preserve my right to marry

:27:38. > :27:41.legally who I chose, not the right of bishops to tell me I should not.

:27:42. > :27:46.Now the Church of England says its position is clear. I do not think

:27:47. > :27:51.its position... It says it supports vicars in same-sex partnerships but

:27:52. > :27:58.marriage is between a man and a woman. It has had an amazing change

:27:59. > :28:01.of heart over civil partnerships because it was hotly opposed by

:28:02. > :28:06.bishops in most of its passage through the House of Lords and they

:28:07. > :28:12.have suddenly discovered civil partnerships and they think they are

:28:13. > :28:16.a lovely thing. But the doctrine of the Church of England says this,

:28:17. > :28:21.that marriage is between a man and a woman for life. Interestingly, the

:28:22. > :28:24.Church of England has a number now of divorced and remarried bishops,

:28:25. > :28:29.they have gone against the doctrine of the Church of England and nobody

:28:30. > :28:36.has punished them. Is it hypocritical? Yes, it is. Jeremy and

:28:37. > :28:41.I clearly... There is nothing... Agreement is breaking out. I agree

:28:42. > :28:44.that the way the church has handled civil partnerships has been

:28:45. > :28:48.unhelpful and confusing and I thought what happened was mistaken

:28:49. > :28:51.in the past. Why should it allow one thing, what Jeremy is saying about

:28:52. > :29:00.divorce and remarry in being fine... The church does not say it

:29:01. > :29:04.is fine. If anyone has been involved in divorce and has remarried, they

:29:05. > :29:10.have to go through a pass truly challenging process before they can

:29:11. > :29:14.be admitted to ministry. The church has not changed its teaching. Yes,

:29:15. > :29:19.it has. It has added a clause saying, when it goes wrong, here is

:29:20. > :29:24.a remedy to restore it. Going back to their articles, the doctrine is

:29:25. > :29:29.clear and it is disingenuous of Jeremy to claim that the 39 articles

:29:30. > :29:34.legitimises his approach. The judge in the tribunal was clear in saying

:29:35. > :29:39.that the Church of England has consistently for a long time very

:29:40. > :29:46.articulately and as recently as 2014 in the bishop was no statement said

:29:47. > :29:50.very clearly what the church's teaching on marriage is. In Britain

:29:51. > :29:55.today, we have two laws about marriage, we have the law which is

:29:56. > :29:59.shaped by the 2013 act and we have ecclesiastical law which includes

:30:00. > :30:07.canon law which says clearly that marriage is between one man and one

:30:08. > :30:11.man -- one woman. Bishop said clearly it was the case. At the

:30:12. > :30:15.moment the Church of England has had no discussion about in the

:30:16. > :30:20.appropriate form to decide whether it has a doctrine about same-sex

:30:21. > :30:24.marriage or not. All we have had is pastoral guidance from the bishops.

:30:25. > :30:29.The clue is in the title. It is not doctrine. The Church of England...

:30:30. > :30:36.You are still wearing the dog collar. The church has decided

:30:37. > :30:43.really clearly. We have never discussed it. The all of the

:30:44. > :30:48.documentation is listed in the tribunal ruling. All of the examples

:30:49. > :30:50.in canon law, in the general communication from bishops, in

:30:51. > :30:57.specific indication from the assistant bishop in the dioceses,

:30:58. > :31:02.the acting Bishop, all consistent. It depends... Can I read to you what

:31:03. > :31:06.the bishop broke? He said, you have acted in a way which is inconsistent

:31:07. > :31:10.with your ordination vows and your duty to live in accordance with the

:31:11. > :31:14.teachings of the Church of England. It is unambiguous to me and the

:31:15. > :31:18.judge thought so too. The Bishop gave me a rebuke and I have been

:31:19. > :31:24.treated very differently in two dioceses. I have a dog collar

:31:25. > :31:28.because I am a priest in the good standing of Lincoln. I wake up in

:31:29. > :31:32.Nottinghamshire not a priest because the dioceses has removed all of my

:31:33. > :31:37.capacity to act as a priest. I get in my car and I drive 12 miles up

:31:38. > :31:41.the road to another village and I cross the county boundary and I am a

:31:42. > :31:44.priest. I think that is completely crackers. Most people think so. How

:31:45. > :31:55.do you explain that? In order to function as a priest in

:31:56. > :32:01.the Church of England, you need a licence. I have one. It is the legal

:32:02. > :32:05.way that a bishop allows a priest to operate with licensors and

:32:06. > :32:09.privileges. The base that there is no clarity when he can operate in

:32:10. > :32:13.one place but not another. The reason why Jeremy has a licence in

:32:14. > :32:16.one place and not in the other, is that clergy have such good

:32:17. > :32:20.protection under law about the licence that if there is clear

:32:21. > :32:25.evidence, which there was in this case, not to grant a licence, then

:32:26. > :32:28.the bishop can do so, but if he already has a licence, to remove

:32:29. > :32:34.that the Bishop leads to go through a complex and expensive legal

:32:35. > :32:37.procedure. This is nonsense, and you know it. The clergy discipline

:32:38. > :32:45.measure was meant to be a simple and direct way of dealing with clergy

:32:46. > :32:48.discipline. It has been used in number of times perfectly

:32:49. > :32:54.effectively, as you know. If the Bishop really thought I had done

:32:55. > :33:00.something bad he could have asked as Archdeacon -- his Archdeacon to

:33:01. > :33:05.start action against me they never have. Neither Bishop had any

:33:06. > :33:10.complaints made to them about my marrying, either informal or formal.

:33:11. > :33:16.Nobody complained. It is not a problem. I think to get over it. As

:33:17. > :33:25.things stand, you could carry on in your same position for other, but

:33:26. > :33:30.you can't move elsewhere? If I move, there is a risk. How does this make

:33:31. > :33:36.you feel? Has it made you question staying within the church? Not at

:33:37. > :33:40.all. I have been a member of the Church of England since I was

:33:41. > :33:45.baptised at four month old in King's College Chapel, Cambridge, and I

:33:46. > :33:50.will stay, I will stay forever. This is my church, I belong there. I have

:33:51. > :33:54.given 34 years of ministry, and nobody has ever complained about the

:33:55. > :33:59.ministry I have offered. I am the canon of two cathedrals, but tells

:34:00. > :34:03.you that people think I do good ministry. I was complimented on the

:34:04. > :34:10.House of Commons yesterday on my ministry. I am disgusted, really, by

:34:11. > :34:15.the Church's attitude and behaviour. I am fairly confident and reasonably

:34:16. > :34:18.articulate, but there are a lot of gay and lesbian people out there who

:34:19. > :34:25.feel that the church runs roughshod over them. Ian, does that make you

:34:26. > :34:30.feel sad, he is describing being a second-class citizen? It makes me

:34:31. > :34:35.feel very sad. What he said is not true, it is a complex legal process.

:34:36. > :34:41.The judge interpreted, the church not deploying bat is an act of

:34:42. > :34:44.compassion. I feel much more sympathy for gay clergy that I know

:34:45. > :34:48.who have said they accept the teaching the church, they will not

:34:49. > :34:53.ride roughshod over their vows of canonical obedience, therefore they

:34:54. > :34:57.have remained celibate, or I have about gay clergy friends who have

:34:58. > :35:01.fallen in love and married a woman, I have others who disagree with the

:35:02. > :35:05.teaching of the church, as Jeremy does, but out of respect for the

:35:06. > :35:07.church and for themselves, they say they will not enter same-sex

:35:08. > :35:14.marriage because they know it is against teaching of the church. So

:35:15. > :35:23.they stay as they are, even though they don't like it. I disagree with

:35:24. > :35:25.the notion that I do not respect the teachings of the Church or live

:35:26. > :35:31.within them, I think that is outrageous. We must leave it there.

:35:32. > :35:33.Reverend Paul on Twitter says no religion should have the right to

:35:34. > :35:38.discriminate on any grounds. They should not be a love -- above the

:35:39. > :35:45.law. Jemima says it is dreadful and archaic that the Church can legally

:35:46. > :35:48.discriminate against a gay man for getting married, and rages. --

:35:49. > :35:49.outrageous. A spokesperson for the Diocese

:35:50. > :35:51.of Southwell and Nottingham said they recognise that it has been

:35:52. > :35:54.a long and difficult process "Churches across the diocese

:35:55. > :35:58.continue to offer a generous welcome We remain engaged

:35:59. > :36:01.in the on-going shared conversations across the wider Church of England

:36:02. > :36:03.that are exploring questions The first person in the world to

:36:04. > :36:08.receive a pioneering genetic therapy has had her cancer reversed,

:36:09. > :36:12.say Great Ormond Street doctors. One-year-old Layla Richards had

:36:13. > :36:15.incurable aggressive leukaemia Doctors say it's too soon to know

:36:16. > :36:21.if she has been cured, but her progress already marks

:36:22. > :36:34.a huge moment for the field. When she was three months old, we

:36:35. > :36:39.took her to the doctor 's and told him she just wasn't herself. Her

:36:40. > :36:46.heartbeat was a bit fast, she had a high-pitched cry. She had gone off

:36:47. > :36:50.her milk completely. We took her back to a local hospital and within

:36:51. > :36:54.half an hour we were told she had leukaemia and an ambulance was

:36:55. > :36:57.coming to take is to Great Ormond Street Hospital to start treatment

:36:58. > :37:04.immediately. They said it was very aggressive leukaemia, we are going

:37:05. > :37:09.to tell you information, bit I did. It changed our life dramatically.

:37:10. > :37:13.She had a bone marrow transplant this year. The day we left the

:37:14. > :37:18.transplant unit, seven weeks later we were told she had relapsed and

:37:19. > :37:24.things were not looking good. Everyone was upset. The transplant

:37:25. > :37:29.was not successful. Let me have a little feel of her tummy. Her

:37:30. > :37:34.prognosis was absolutely dismal, having relapsed so early after the

:37:35. > :37:37.transplant, almost always in previous similar circumstances we

:37:38. > :37:44.have said, there is nothing more we can do. They said, go home and make

:37:45. > :37:48.memories. Make memories, palliative care. I don't believe that outlook.

:37:49. > :37:53.I have never been through it before, but I don't believe giving up. We

:37:54. > :38:00.just pushed on and pushed on, we got the go-ahead for this treatment. We

:38:01. > :38:04.have collected white blood cells from a healthy donor, we have

:38:05. > :38:07.modified them in several days. Firstly we have armed themselves a

:38:08. > :38:11.can recognise and kill leukaemia cells when they are back in the

:38:12. > :38:16.body, secondly we have neutered them by taking away their own centres so

:38:17. > :38:21.they can't cause harm by recognising normal tissues. Thirdly we have

:38:22. > :38:24.taken away a molecule on their surface which effectively means they

:38:25. > :38:28.are invisible to one of the very strong drugs were used when we treat

:38:29. > :38:33.patients with leukaemia and get them ready for treatments like

:38:34. > :38:39.transplantation. She was so weak before this treatment. It was just

:38:40. > :38:43.horrible. It is a miracle. This was a huge experiment. We were not

:38:44. > :38:49.expecting the good result but we have seen. Layla is very tough, she

:38:50. > :38:54.has coped with this treatment, other children may not be able to do it in

:38:55. > :38:59.the same way. We are delighted and amaze. There always has to be a

:39:00. > :39:01.first, we beg them to try. How do you know if you never try? Here is

:39:02. > :39:03.the first. We can speak to Dr George Vassiliou,

:39:04. > :39:14.from the Thanks for joining us. What are your

:39:15. > :39:19.thoughts? How much of a breakthrough is this, potentially? It is a

:39:20. > :39:23.landmark, it has the ten sure to change treatment for many patients

:39:24. > :39:29.with leukaemia, turning curable diseases into curable. It has been

:39:30. > :39:36.done in this little girl. It is the first time it has happened. What is

:39:37. > :39:39.the difference between something being done in this way and it

:39:40. > :39:46.rolling out to something that could offer hope to so many? To help your

:39:47. > :39:52.viewers understand what was Julie Dunn, I will start by saying that

:39:53. > :39:56.this treatment is not dissimilar to bone marrow transplantation --

:39:57. > :39:59.understand what was actually done. In a bone marrow transplant you get

:40:00. > :40:05.cells from a donor and give them to a patient, they include T cells.

:40:06. > :40:08.Those cells have the ability to identify leukaemia cells and kill

:40:09. > :40:17.them, and they do in many patients but, in fortunately, not in every

:40:18. > :40:23.patient. Some cancers and particular are resistant. But these cells have

:40:24. > :40:30.first been modified to point them to the leukaemia cells and in order to

:40:31. > :40:34.make them safe for the individual. This type of treatment has been

:40:35. > :40:40.started in the last two years, but up until now the cells had to be

:40:41. > :40:44.taken out of the patient themselves. Modified et cetera, then put back

:40:45. > :40:48.into the patient. That cannot be done for some patients because they

:40:49. > :40:51.do not have enough cells, in their ill state, for them to be

:40:52. > :40:58.manipulated. And it takes a very long time to take cells out, modify

:40:59. > :41:01.them and put them back. The doctors and scientists at Great Ormond

:41:02. > :41:08.Street Hospital in cells from a donor that can be ready to be

:41:09. > :41:13.given, potentially, to a number of people, not all people, but many

:41:14. > :41:16.people, so it can turn something laboratories, difficult and only

:41:17. > :41:19.applicable in some cases into something more broadly applicable,

:41:20. > :41:25.and I can see that extending to other patients with ease in

:41:26. > :41:31.diseases. What sort of timescale are you thinking? The doctor that great

:41:32. > :41:36.all were planning phase one study, these things all had to be done

:41:37. > :41:42.safely. In their agenda is a study of ten to 15 patients next year. If

:41:43. > :41:46.I compare these to the beginnings of bone marrow transplantation, the

:41:47. > :41:51.progress can be quite rapid and it would be looking at treating

:41:52. > :41:56.patients in the context of carefully controlled trials in the UK within

:41:57. > :42:01.next two to three years. It is a much faster progress than that we

:42:02. > :42:05.have seen with medicinal compounds, partly because it is similar to

:42:06. > :42:11.establish techniques like bone marrow transplantation. We know a

:42:12. > :42:16.lot about it and we can introduce safety and checks to make sure it is

:42:17. > :42:21.given safely to patients. Thank you very much for joining us.

:42:22. > :42:28.A conversation between Mullaly use of sire and the actress Emma Watson

:42:29. > :42:33.is being widely shared on social media today. It was filmed at the

:42:34. > :42:42.premiere of a film which has been made about Malala. Feminism is a

:42:43. > :42:47.very tricky word. The first time I heard it, I had negative responses

:42:48. > :42:51.and some positive ones. I hesitated in saying and I are feminist or not?

:42:52. > :42:57.And then after hearing your speech when you said if not now, when? If

:42:58. > :43:01.not me, who? I decided there is no way and there is nothing wrong by

:43:02. > :43:05.calling yourself a feminist, so I am a feminist and you all should be

:43:06. > :43:10.feminist, because feminism is another word for quality. I am so

:43:11. > :43:14.moved to hear that. That is absolutely amazing. I agree with

:43:15. > :43:18.you. It has become this really difficult word, but it is wonderful

:43:19. > :43:24.when people embrace it, because it should be synonymous with equality.

:43:25. > :43:28.Let's bring you a bit more on the situation with Sharm el-Sheikh our

:43:29. > :43:32.port. It is a confusing picture this morning. We have some copy that

:43:33. > :43:37.deems to be definitive, telling us the situation regarding flights

:43:38. > :43:40.getting out to Sharm el-Sheikh to bring back at unjust. Egyptian

:43:41. > :43:44.authorities have granted all UK airlines permission to have eight

:43:45. > :43:51.departures today, eight in total. Eight flights will go from here to

:43:52. > :43:54.Sharm el-Sheikh to bring Brits back, hopefully. I will be back on Monday.

:43:55. > :43:57.Have a lovely weekend. Goodbye.