23/11/2015

:00:00. > :00:09.Hello. It's Monday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling in for

:00:10. > :00:17.Victoria Derbyshire - welcome to the programme.

:00:18. > :00:19.Are British military air strikes against so-called Islamic State

:00:20. > :00:34.Susan Nattrass Bennett and I say that we need to invest in efforts in

:00:35. > :00:40.diplomacy. We know that the war in Afghanistan failed. Let's not go

:00:41. > :00:44.there again. Isil are a threat to our society and we cannot rely on

:00:45. > :00:50.other countries to protect that interest. Emily Thornberry. I am a

:00:51. > :00:54.pragmatist and I want to hear what David Cameron has to say because we

:00:55. > :00:59.need to have a plan. We cannot bomb a country from 30,000ft into a

:01:00. > :01:05.Western-style democracy. Our history in the Middle East shows that. I am

:01:06. > :01:08.Alex Salmond. I am not convinced that adding to the many countries

:01:09. > :01:11.already bombing Syria can help bring about the peace which we need to

:01:12. > :01:12.tackle terrorism. In the last few minutes,

:01:13. > :01:19.David Cameron has been speaking from Paris, where he is meeting the

:01:20. > :01:28.French president Francois Hollande. I firmly support the action which is

:01:29. > :01:30.that Holland has taken and it is my firm conviction that Britain should

:01:31. > :01:36.do so, too. Brussels is still in a state

:01:37. > :01:39.of lockdown, with fear Schools, the metro system

:01:40. > :01:43.and all public buildings remain Residents tell us how

:01:44. > :01:50.they are coping. Plus, we talk to people who have had

:01:51. > :02:04.cancer not just once I just tried to keep dying and keep

:02:05. > :02:08.myself busy all the time. They were only four or five when it happened.

:02:09. > :02:17.But I always use the words. I used the words cancer, tumour. It is

:02:18. > :02:23.talking to the people around you and saying, yes, would you like to come

:02:24. > :02:26.into the surgery because we have a terminal diagnosis...?

:02:27. > :02:33.We are on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:02:34. > :02:37.Throughout the morning we'll keep you up to

:02:38. > :02:41.date with the latest breaking news and developing stories.

:02:42. > :02:43.We'll be live in Paris and Brussels, which remains in lockdown

:02:44. > :02:49.Plus we'll tell you about Nola, one of the last remaining white rhinos

:02:50. > :02:54.It means there are now only three white rhinos left in the world.

:02:55. > :02:56.Do get in touch with us to share your views

:02:57. > :03:04.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:03:05. > :03:08.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever you

:03:09. > :03:10.are via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/Victoria.

:03:11. > :03:13.And you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

:03:14. > :03:15.by going to add topics and searching Victoria Derbyshire.

:03:16. > :03:17.First though - it looks increasingly likely that

:03:18. > :03:20.Britain will take military action against so-called Islamic State

:03:21. > :03:25.David Cameron is in Paris this morning meeting

:03:26. > :03:28.the French President Hollande to discuss the next step in what is now

:03:29. > :03:32.The PM has said he will seek parliamentary approval this week

:03:33. > :03:35.for Britain to launch airstrikes against IS in Syria.

:03:36. > :03:51.The use of chemical weapons by the Assad regime is unacceptable

:03:52. > :04:02.and the world cannot stand by in the face of that.

:04:03. > :04:39.And when we have the unique capabilities

:04:40. > :04:42.to help avert a massacre, then I believe the United States

:04:43. > :04:59.That means that a terrorist attack is highly likely.

:05:00. > :06:34.But there is no intelligence to suggest that an attack is imminent.

:06:35. > :06:37.In the past few minutes, the Prime Minister has been speaking

:06:38. > :06:40.in Paris about his plan for taking on IS in Syria.

:06:41. > :06:42.Standing alongside the French President, Francois Hollande,

:06:43. > :06:45.he said that Britain and France would step up their cooperation

:06:46. > :06:54.on counter-terrorism, including greater intelligence-sharing.

:06:55. > :07:01.We face a shared threat and we must share information and intelligence

:07:02. > :07:05.to better protect ourselves from these brutal terrorists. The UK and

:07:06. > :07:09.France or already doing this but today we have agreed to step up our

:07:10. > :07:12.efforts even further and work even more closely with our European

:07:13. > :07:17.neighbours. In particular we must do more to tackle the threat of

:07:18. > :07:21.returning foreign fighters. This requires a para-European effort. We

:07:22. > :07:25.need a stronger external European order to protect our security more

:07:26. > :07:29.effectively with systematic security checks and greater sharing of data

:07:30. > :07:33.among the member states. We must without further day finally agree

:07:34. > :07:37.the rules which will enable us to share up as in Jenin records. It is

:07:38. > :07:40.frankly ridiculous that we can get more information from countries

:07:41. > :07:45.outside the EU than we can from each other. And we must do more to crack

:07:46. > :07:48.down on the trade in illegal firearms to stop them getting into

:07:49. > :07:52.the hands of terrorists who are determined to wreak such misery.

:07:53. > :07:54.Really keen to get a sense from you this morning if you'd

:07:55. > :07:57.support military action against so-called Islamic State in Syria.

:07:58. > :08:04.Andrew Bridgen, a Conservative MP who voted

:08:05. > :08:06.against military intervention in 2013 but now supports it.

:08:07. > :08:09.Labour MP Emily Thornberry says she is still undecided.

:08:10. > :08:11.Natalie Bennett - she's not an MP, but she leads

:08:12. > :08:13.the Green Party, who are against military intervention.

:08:14. > :08:16.And joining us from Dublin is Alex Salmond MP, the former leader

:08:17. > :08:19.of the SNP, who is now their foreign affairs spokesperson.

:08:20. > :08:22.Last week the party said it was "prepared to listen" to the case for

:08:23. > :08:36.Thank you all for joining us. Andrew Bridgen, you voted against this in

:08:37. > :08:43.2013 and now you are supporting it? I did not vote against it, I voted

:08:44. > :08:49.against strikes on Assad. He was a despicable regime but he was not the

:08:50. > :08:53.worst protagonist in the theatre. And he was never a threat to UK

:08:54. > :09:01.interests. When we have tried regime change across the Middle East, it

:09:02. > :09:04.has had fairly disastrous results. Emily, your party leader is against

:09:05. > :09:09.air strikes but you could be persuaded? I think that we have had

:09:10. > :09:13.such confusion in relation to this. I think you're right, if we had

:09:14. > :09:17.agreed with Cameron at the time, we would have been bombing Assad. Now

:09:18. > :09:22.it seems the proposal is to bomb the other side, perhaps in support of

:09:23. > :09:27.Assad. And so it is not a question of not being decided yet. I want to

:09:28. > :09:32.be open-minded but I want to see a complete plan. I do not think that

:09:33. > :09:36.sound bites about, we have got to stand up for British interests, we

:09:37. > :09:41.have got to start bombing, is enough. We need to have a complete

:09:42. > :09:45.plan. Even if we were to take out Isis, what would happen in relation

:09:46. > :09:52.to the vacuum? What would feel it? Can we even defeat Isis just with

:09:53. > :09:56.bombing from 30,000ft? Do we need ground troops? If so, who will they

:09:57. > :10:03.be? What is the result of this going to be? Are we going to allow the

:10:04. > :10:08.Iranians in, the Russians, to take over part of Syria? What will

:10:09. > :10:14.happen? Does this mean you are minded one way or another? No, it is

:10:15. > :10:19.not fair to say there are lots of MPs who are undecided. There are MPs

:10:20. > :10:24.who are trying to keep an open mind but who are saying to Cameron, you

:10:25. > :10:30.need to persuade us by showing us a complete plan. Everyone agrees that

:10:31. > :10:35.in principle we should try to get rid of Isis. The question is, how do

:10:36. > :10:39.you do it? To say simply you must support bombings or not is not a

:10:40. > :10:42.complete answer. We have so many experiences in the Middle East which

:10:43. > :10:50.show it is not enough to bomb and go. If it is a clear threat to UK

:10:51. > :10:54.interests. Our intelligence services have already thwarted seven plots

:10:55. > :11:01.this year, one in the last four weeks. If you get rid of Isis, where

:11:02. > :11:08.do the Sunnis go next? The Americans have already been bombing. They have

:11:09. > :11:12.had 8000 strikes on 16,000 targets. And over that period the number of

:11:13. > :11:16.Isis fighters has been estimated at 20,000. It has not been reduced. We

:11:17. > :11:23.have actually seen the number of foreign fighters owing to join Isis

:11:24. > :11:27.estimated at 30,000 where it was 15,000. This is a tactic which the

:11:28. > :11:32.Americans have been operating for some time and it has failed. We need

:11:33. > :11:37.to look to how we can find a final peaceful settlement in Syria which

:11:38. > :11:40.does not involve Assad, which gets rid of this hideous organisation

:11:41. > :11:45.Isis. But we need to think what comes next in Syria. That means

:11:46. > :11:51.focusing on diplomacy, the International Syria Support Group,

:11:52. > :11:56.which involves different countries. They have had two meetings. It is a

:11:57. > :12:00.start. And yet Britain, we are cutting back on our diplomatic

:12:01. > :12:03.effort at a time when we should be investing in diplomacy as the only

:12:04. > :12:10.way forward. Alex Salmond, what is the answer for you? I agree with

:12:11. > :12:13.much of what has been said. I will listen to what the Prime Minister

:12:14. > :12:17.has got to say but we are not convinced that adding to the bombing

:12:18. > :12:21.campaign is the answer. There is no shortage of people bombing Syria at

:12:22. > :12:26.the present moment. Everybody and their auntie is humming somebody in

:12:27. > :12:30.Syria. What there is a shortage of is a coherent policy to bring about

:12:31. > :12:34.peace in Syria in a rapid timescale. We have just heard from

:12:35. > :12:40.the Prime Minister in Paris. Not a word did he say about taking the

:12:41. > :12:46.real fight to Isis, countering their propaganda. This is a death cult,

:12:47. > :12:50.and it should be that Western values have more of an influence in the

:12:51. > :12:54.propaganda. There has been not a word about intercepting their

:12:55. > :12:58.websites like the activist groups ANONYMOUS has been doing. Not even a

:12:59. > :13:08.word about intercepting the sources of finance, without which Daesh

:13:09. > :13:12.could not function. All of this Cameron's obsession about bombing is

:13:13. > :13:18.not a strategy, it is a replacement for a strategy about how to take the

:13:19. > :13:21.real battle to Daesh. I think we will have a statement from the Prime

:13:22. > :13:25.Minister in response to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee report. I

:13:26. > :13:28.think that does need to be comprehensive, it needs to be more

:13:29. > :13:33.than just sending a couple of Tornados. I would like to see France

:13:34. > :13:38.invoke an five of the Nato charter. We do need troops on the ground as

:13:39. > :13:44.part of a coordinated response. On a strikes, Howard Britain joining them

:13:45. > :13:47.actually change anything? We have got special forces or so who could

:13:48. > :13:51.be sporting for targets. On the ground? We have got special forces

:13:52. > :13:57.on the ground. At strikes alone will never be enough. The second-largest

:13:58. > :14:02.force in Nato is in fact the Turkish, they are Muslim troops and

:14:03. > :14:07.they are in theatre. That could be a solution. Would you back British

:14:08. > :14:13.forces on the ground beyond special forces? Probably not at this stage

:14:14. > :14:17.but we need to see where it goes the Russians going to bring in troops on

:14:18. > :14:21.the ground? And if they do so, will it be in partnership with the West?

:14:22. > :14:25.And what will the price before that? At the moment we are not supposed to

:14:26. > :14:30.be trading with Russia. Russia is supposed to be a pariah state. Is

:14:31. > :14:34.that going to be part of the deal? Also, of course our priority has to

:14:35. > :14:37.be protecting our own citizens. So why at this time is the Government

:14:38. > :14:48.thinking about cutting back on the police? Bernard Hogan-Howe has said

:14:49. > :14:51.the Met will not be safer. What worries me is that our Prime

:14:52. > :14:56.Minister seems to think that bombing is the solution. And absolutely it

:14:57. > :15:00.is not. It has to be part of a much wider strategy. And we do not have

:15:01. > :15:04.any answers to any of the questions we are answering. Andrew is an

:15:05. > :15:08.honest man and he has outlined that bombing campaign on its own is never

:15:09. > :15:12.enough. You have to have troops on the ground. He is right to say that

:15:13. > :15:17.two years ago of course, David Cameron wanted to bomb the other

:15:18. > :15:24.side in Syria. It gives a clue as to the difficulties when he says, use

:15:25. > :15:27.Turkish troops. When Turkey entered this theatre, they said they were

:15:28. > :15:34.going to bomb Daesh but spent most of their time bombing the Kurds, who

:15:35. > :15:37.are our allies. This gives an insight into the some of the

:15:38. > :15:40.difficulties which Andrew has put his finger on but which the Prime

:15:41. > :15:46.Minister clearly has not thought through. So, what would your

:15:47. > :15:50.instinct be, then, Alex Salmond? Is it to be a good ally, as David

:15:51. > :15:56.Cameron puts it, and support these air strikes?

:15:57. > :16:08.We think the right thing is to bring forward an urgent plan for a

:16:09. > :16:14.ceasefire for non-Daesh forces in Syria. Ringing about peace is the

:16:15. > :16:17.way to tackle both the refugee and the terrorism crisis which is

:16:18. > :16:22.afflicting Europe and elsewhere at the present moment.

:16:23. > :16:26.I think Alex Salmond is right in terms of Turkey is a real issue

:16:27. > :16:30.there. The Kurds have been some of the most effective fighters on the

:16:31. > :16:35.ground against IS, and they have weaned trying to attack them. And I

:16:36. > :16:39.think Emily is right about the issue of police cuts, but there is also

:16:40. > :16:45.the issue of cuts to the Foreign Office and the diplomatic corps.

:16:46. > :16:49.It's spending is already down 30%. In the current Autumn Statement,

:16:50. > :16:56.we're looking at being forced to cut another 25-40%. These are the people

:16:57. > :17:00.who should be working with other diplomatic corps, and yet we are

:17:01. > :17:04.cutting back the investment are just the point when we should be

:17:05. > :17:10.investing and supporting that work. And one element we haven't raised

:17:11. > :17:14.is, where does IS get its money? What are we doing about the banks

:17:15. > :17:19.and the individuals who are funding this organisation? What are we

:17:20. > :17:23.doing, what is happening in relation to Saudi Arabia and their

:17:24. > :17:28.relationship, or the relationship of some individuals there with IS. The

:17:29. > :17:34.answer that David Cameron gave to that very question, both to Jeremy

:17:35. > :17:38.Corbyn and myself, was to say that we are on subcommittee which is

:17:39. > :17:41.looking into it. So why is there so much urgency from David Cameron to

:17:42. > :17:45.join a bombing campaign which everybody knows will make no

:17:46. > :17:49.difference, and so little urgency in interrupting the financial flows

:17:50. > :17:56.which actually could cripple this terrorist organisation. Bombing is

:17:57. > :17:59.so much more dramatic. He can go on television and be a Great War

:18:00. > :18:03.leader, and talks about Churchill and so on, but if we want to be

:18:04. > :18:09.effective, sometimes being effective is not as glamorous, but can work

:18:10. > :18:14.better stop we are bombing IS in Iraq now. That got through the House

:18:15. > :18:18.of Commons. If they are a threat to our country, it is logical we would

:18:19. > :18:21.go and attack them wherever they are, whether in Iraq, Syria or

:18:22. > :18:28.elsewhere. That makes military sense. I am not an enthusiast for

:18:29. > :18:34.bombing campaigns. , but nonetheless, the situation in Iraq

:18:35. > :18:39.is that ground is conceded by Daesh that will then be occupied by the

:18:40. > :18:45.Iraqi government or the Peshmerga Kurdish forces. You know who will

:18:46. > :18:51.fill the vacuum. In Syria, you don't know who will fill that vacuum. And

:18:52. > :18:55.that as indicated earlier is a real difficulty without a reliable ground

:18:56. > :19:00.ally. David Cameron has said that he will be putting forward the case

:19:01. > :19:03.were defeating IS. He has not said he is going to be outlining the

:19:04. > :19:08.wider issues on what happens in Syria. I think the Prime Minister

:19:09. > :19:12.will have to address some of those issues, and he will certainly be

:19:13. > :19:18.questioned on it in the chamber. This week we have got the economic

:19:19. > :19:22.situation to be dealt with. Next week, I think it will come. You

:19:23. > :19:27.think there will be a vote next week? I think there will. So you

:19:28. > :19:33.will all have to decide. You will say yes? Yes. I need to hear a

:19:34. > :19:38.proper plan, I don't want to hear just about air strikes, it needs to

:19:39. > :19:43.be part of a wider plan, we haven't heard the answers to legitimate

:19:44. > :19:47.plans. The Green party will be a no, Caroline Lucas, the Green MP. We are

:19:48. > :19:53.now entering the 15th year of the war on terror, it is 12 years since

:19:54. > :19:57.George W Bush declared it won. The tactics have failed, and we need to

:19:58. > :20:02.take a new approach. Alex Salmond, will you be yes or no?

:20:03. > :20:08.As of now we are not convinced unless we hear something sensible

:20:09. > :20:14.and coherent, we will say no. And should Labour MPs have a free vote?

:20:15. > :20:17.I don't want to saddle of a broken record, but we need to have an

:20:18. > :20:22.understanding of what the Prime Minister is asking us to sign up to

:20:23. > :20:27.before we are in a position to say yes or no. But what is wrong with

:20:28. > :20:30.asking if Labour MPs will have a free vote or not? Hilary Benn has

:20:31. > :20:34.been quite clear that we want to have a coherent plan. What is

:20:35. > :20:38.happening in Vienna is important, but there needs to be a plan for the

:20:39. > :20:46.future of Syria. The bombing campaign in itself is not enough.

:20:47. > :20:52.David Cameron will have to -- Jeremy Corbyn will have to offer his MPs a

:20:53. > :20:57.free vote, he is so far from what the public are thinking on terms of

:20:58. > :21:04.this. It is very sad to ascend into petty party politics on a matter of

:21:05. > :21:07.world security. We need to be able to have a proper discussion and to

:21:08. > :21:12.be able to consider these matters calmly and clearly, and not be

:21:13. > :21:16.sniping at each other. Your leader said that he objected to police

:21:17. > :21:23.shooting a terrorist dead. No, he didn't. This is so much more than

:21:24. > :21:27.party bickering between Labour and Tory. For six months, I have been

:21:28. > :21:34.international affairs spokesperson for the SNP. I have heard both sides

:21:35. > :21:39.trying to convince people to support their campaign, and they have been

:21:40. > :21:43.too busy occupied trying to divide the Labour Party, than trying to

:21:44. > :21:50.produce a coherent plan for peace in Syria. It has to come to an end,

:21:51. > :21:53.Andrew. And when you come to questions of war and peace, it

:21:54. > :21:58.should always be a matter of voting on conscience.

:21:59. > :22:04.You are asking your local MP to make a critical decision affecting lives.

:22:05. > :22:09.That should always be a free vote. Emily, your final thought? The

:22:10. > :22:14.Labour Party stopped the bombing of Assad last time. If we hadn't

:22:15. > :22:23.stopped it, presumably buys this would be even struck the -- Isis

:22:24. > :22:27.would be even stronger. The popular view one Jeremy Corbyn on the Swan,

:22:28. > :22:30.a poll indicates that 17% of voters trust him to keep them and their

:22:31. > :22:37.family safe. Would you be prepared to back him with a No vote on this

:22:38. > :22:41.when it appears public opinion is against that position? I am going to

:22:42. > :22:46.make a decision on the basis of what I think is right for the country,

:22:47. > :22:51.and Jeremy will be doing the same. It is a rich of Alex Salmond accused

:22:52. > :22:56.the Conservatives of divisive politics. Normally in the hazard

:22:57. > :22:59.Commons, the SNP will take a slight against Scotland and disagree on

:23:00. > :23:04.everything. We are talking about serious issues today. Try to rise to

:23:05. > :23:08.the occasion. You did really well two years ago when you voted with

:23:09. > :23:15.your principle. Try to find yourself in a principle to rise to this. When

:23:16. > :23:19.IS have an attack in Edinburgh, will that stir you into action? That is

:23:20. > :23:24.the sort of remark that belittles this. I have tried outline, as have

:23:25. > :23:27.others on this panel, real ways where we could do something useful

:23:28. > :23:36.in Syria to bring about peace, real ways to tackle Daesh as a terrorist

:23:37. > :23:40.death cult, and all you have done in the last few minutes both to the

:23:41. > :23:42.Labour Party and the SNP is ridiculous jibes which have nothing

:23:43. > :23:46.to do with the serious issues that we are going to have to face as

:23:47. > :23:53.members of parliament over the next two weeks. And this highlights the

:23:54. > :23:56.fact that we have a concern over people's trust in politics, and

:23:57. > :24:01.Andrew, you are not helping. That is where we are. Thank you all for

:24:02. > :24:06.sharing your views. Stephen has e-mailed to say, bombing is not

:24:07. > :24:11.enough without boots on the ground. We need foot action and bombs

:24:12. > :24:12.together. Do stay in touch with your thoughts on the discussion and the

:24:13. > :24:19.wider issues there. Three woman who have been diagnosed

:24:20. > :24:24.with cancer several times - in the case of one, ten times -

:24:25. > :24:27.have been talking to Victoria The white rhino faces imminent

:24:28. > :24:31.extinction as one of only four First it's

:24:32. > :24:42.the main news this morning. David Cameron has been holding

:24:43. > :24:44.talks in Paris with The Prime Minister says he will seek

:24:45. > :24:48.parliamentary approval this week for Britain to join US-led air

:24:49. > :24:58.strikes against Islamic State I firmly support the action

:24:59. > :25:02.President Hollande has taken to strike Isil in Syria, and it is my

:25:03. > :25:04.firm conviction that Britain should do so too.

:25:05. > :25:06.More raids across Brussels where police arrested 16 people overnight

:25:07. > :25:09.thought to have links to the Paris gun and bombing attacks.

:25:10. > :25:13.The key suspect, Salah Abdeslam, wasn't among those detained.

:25:14. > :25:15.Schools, universities and the metro system in

:25:16. > :25:18.the Belgian capital are still closed as the Belgian capital remains on

:25:19. > :25:33.two rapid reaction strike brigades and a new fleet of maritime patrol

:25:34. > :25:36.aircraft are some of the measures David Cameron is to

:25:37. > :25:39.announce in the Government's defence and security review later today.

:25:40. > :25:42.The Budget is increasing by ?12 billion.

:25:43. > :25:44.Let's turn to the sport now with Jessica,

:25:45. > :25:47.including the latest news ahead of the Davis Cup final in Belgium.

:25:48. > :25:52.The British team will travel to Belgium this morning after delaying

:25:53. > :25:57.their flight by 24 hours, because as you just mentioned, Brussels is on

:25:58. > :26:02.high alert and on security lockdown. The competition itself is in Ghent,

:26:03. > :26:07.about 35 miles away, and there have been assurances by the organisers

:26:08. > :26:12.and the world governing body the ITF that the competition will go ahead

:26:13. > :26:14.safely as planned on Friday. Our tennis correspondent Russell Fuller

:26:15. > :26:19.will have more on that later in the morning.

:26:20. > :26:22.We will have a fantastic interview with boxer Anthony Crolla. Just 11

:26:23. > :26:28.months ago he was in hospital with a fractured skull. This weekend he

:26:29. > :26:32.became WBA lightweight champion. We will be hearing from him and his

:26:33. > :26:35.remarkable journey to success. And a couple of football lines.

:26:36. > :26:38.Leicester City fans will have a spring in their step this morning.

:26:39. > :26:42.They are top of the Premier League, and Jamie Vardy scoring in ten

:26:43. > :26:49.consecutive Premier League games is a record. It equals rude van

:26:50. > :26:53.Nistelrooy's record. We will have more on that at ten o'clock.

:26:54. > :26:55.Jessica, thank you. Next we meet the people who've had

:26:56. > :26:58.cancer not just once, but three, Cancer charities have told this

:26:59. > :27:02.programme there needs to be more support so those who do face

:27:03. > :27:05.a second cancer can be diagnosed If you've had cancer once,

:27:06. > :27:11.there's only a 5% chance of you getting a different kind

:27:12. > :27:13.of cancer in the future. But when it does happen,

:27:14. > :27:16.how do people deal with what can be Emma Hannigan is currently being

:27:17. > :27:20.treated for cancer for the tenth time -

:27:21. > :27:23.she's had cancer in her breasts, Isobel Bradley has been diagnosed

:27:24. > :27:31.with cancer four times - the first time it was cervical cancer and then

:27:32. > :27:34.she had a tumour of her appendix. And Nicola Jeffrey-Sykes has been

:27:35. > :27:38.diagnosed with cancer twice - each time it spread

:27:39. > :27:40.from breast to lymph nodes, colon, They've been telling

:27:41. > :27:52.their stories to Victoria. Can I start by asking you first

:27:53. > :27:55.of all, when you are first treated for cancer,

:27:56. > :27:58.did you worry about it coming back Certainly for me, I didn't think

:27:59. > :28:08.it was going to come back. I had also had preventative to

:28:09. > :28:10.surgery before I was diagnosed because I

:28:11. > :28:13.carried I carried the BRCA1 gene. So I had preventative surgery

:28:14. > :28:16.thinking I would never get cancer, so I definitely felt that when I had

:28:17. > :28:19.had it once, I had ticked that box I didn't think it was

:28:20. > :28:24.going to come back. I had the surgery,

:28:25. > :28:27.I had the radiotherapy, and then I You just try and forget about it

:28:28. > :28:31.and keep going. I was quite confident that it wasn't

:28:32. > :28:33.going to come back, especially as they had found it had

:28:34. > :28:37.travelled to nearly all of the lymph nodes and I had had to have a second

:28:38. > :28:40.operation quite quickly afterwards. I then found out that it

:28:41. > :28:42.had travelled to the bowel. All that was treated quite quickly,

:28:43. > :28:45.so I thought, yes, See you all pretty much thinking,

:28:46. > :28:49.yes, I can crack Emma, you are still only 43

:28:50. > :28:54.and you have been diagnosed with I suppose it has become part

:28:55. > :29:10.of my life. I always want to stress I am not

:29:11. > :29:13.here to frighten people by saying I have had it ten times

:29:14. > :29:16.and that is to scare people. The way I have always looked

:29:17. > :29:20.at it if I have had it ten times I am having chemotherapy

:29:21. > :29:24.at the moment. I am being treated currently but I

:29:25. > :29:27.feel good. Yes, and over the ten years

:29:28. > :29:32.of cancer treatment, in fact, not only have you raised your two

:29:33. > :29:54.teenage children, but you also have Some people find God

:29:55. > :30:00.when they are sick. I found writing

:30:01. > :30:02.and I've written ten books to date. I hope it is not going to be

:30:03. > :30:06.a book for every cancer diagnosis I have definitely found solace

:30:07. > :30:09.in that. It has been good for spleen

:30:10. > :30:11.venting and it is amazing. My body is going through cancer

:30:12. > :30:14.but my mind actually isn't. Isobel,

:30:15. > :30:18.the third time you were diagnosed At that point you had planned

:30:19. > :30:25.this huge three-month holiday to wonderful places and you decided

:30:26. > :30:28.to continue with that rather than I went for the biopsy the day

:30:29. > :30:37.before I was due to travel to Thailand and Australia and I was

:30:38. > :30:40.just so determined to still go on the holiday, that I said to the

:30:41. > :30:43.gynaecologist, "Whatever you tell me, whatever the results, I am still

:30:44. > :30:46.going on my holiday because I am going to be poorly again,

:30:47. > :30:49.I am going to need this holiday I think it was the right thing to do

:30:50. > :31:11.and ten days after, into the holiday, I got the call from

:31:12. > :31:14.the gynaecologist with the results of the biopsy to say, "I am afraid

:31:15. > :31:17.to say you have squamous cell carcinoma," which was the cancer I

:31:18. > :31:20.had the first time 12 years earlier. It is vaginal cancer that

:31:21. > :31:24.I got six years ago. My partner at the time said

:31:25. > :31:27.we need to fly back home. I am going to need this holiday

:31:28. > :31:42.and it is going to ruin everybody's Christmas and New Year

:31:43. > :31:45.so I am going to keep going." I put it in a box and I carried

:31:46. > :31:49.on on holiday for three months. You have cancer now but you

:31:50. > :31:52.are not having treatment now. Why?

:31:53. > :31:53.I am not. I have stage two cancer

:31:54. > :31:55.in the tissues. Because I am not going for tests or

:31:56. > :31:58.anything and I am not having any treatment, I am just carrying

:31:59. > :32:01.on with my life because I have to. But why are you not

:32:02. > :32:04.having treatment? They said there is

:32:05. > :32:06.nothing they can do. I have had all the radiotherapy I

:32:07. > :32:08.can have. I can't have any more surgery

:32:09. > :32:11.so they just said carry on. It is a matter of time as and

:32:12. > :32:14.when these cells develop. So I am just enjoying my life,

:32:15. > :32:17.living it to the full, literally. I keep myself busy and I think

:32:18. > :32:21.that is how I have coped with it. Just keep yourself busy, make sure

:32:22. > :32:24.you have something in the diary to Whatever it is,

:32:25. > :32:28.even if it is just a coffee with I think, Nicola,

:32:29. > :32:32.you had almost got to the five years since having cancer milestone when

:32:33. > :32:35.you got the news that you had it. It was four years, 11 months

:32:36. > :32:40.and one week, so it was literally So much so they were ready to

:32:41. > :32:44.take me off the oral drugs. I had had chemo, I had had

:32:45. > :32:48.radiotherapy, I had had surgery and they were ready to say you can come

:32:49. > :32:52.back on an annual checkup instead Your breast surgeon says it is

:32:53. > :33:04.not painful but for me it was. So I asked them again

:33:05. > :33:11.and again to please retest and eventually they admitted that yes

:33:12. > :33:14.they had found three more cells. At that point, do you think

:33:15. > :33:16.I can't deal with this? Or are you thinking I have no

:33:17. > :33:20.choice but to deal with this? Yes, it was I have no choice

:33:21. > :33:22.but to deal with this. I run some small businesses

:33:23. > :33:27.and it was just unfortunate that the type of cancer -

:33:28. > :33:32.I have two trigger factors, hormone and HCC - and unfortunately it had

:33:33. > :33:37.run into other parts of the body. As well as having it back

:33:38. > :33:41.in the breast it had gone Despite what has happened to all

:33:42. > :33:49.of you and what is continuing to happen, there is a vibe of

:33:50. > :33:52.positivity coming from each of you. We didn't ask for it

:33:53. > :33:58.so you have just got to get on with I would like to say that many

:33:59. > :34:04.people have said to me, "You are there is no right or wrong way to

:34:05. > :34:22.deal with a cancer diagnosis. If you do feel it is the worst thing

:34:23. > :34:26.that has ever happened, you know, You need to either go to

:34:27. > :34:29.a therapist or I really do think it is important to

:34:30. > :34:35.talk. Absolutely. And not to be frightened to say

:34:36. > :34:37.the C word. People can ask you how you are

:34:38. > :34:40.and about the cancer. I talk about it

:34:41. > :34:42.and I tell everybody. I have a colostomy

:34:43. > :34:45.but I am not ashamed of it. I didn't ask for it.

:34:46. > :34:47.None of us asked for it. In the ten years

:34:48. > :34:49.since I have been diagnosed, the advancement in treatment has

:34:50. > :34:51.been absolutely astonishing. It used to be a full body wash out,

:34:52. > :34:55.no matter what cancer you had. It is designed for each person.

:34:56. > :34:59.The surgery has improved as well. They can chop out little bits

:35:00. > :35:02.and you can still function and carry Can I ask all

:35:03. > :35:07.of you how you told family and friends when you were diagnosed for

:35:08. > :35:11.the second time or the third time? Cancer first came into our lives

:35:12. > :35:27.when I was diagnosed with the BRCA1 gene, which was made famous by

:35:28. > :35:29.Angelina Jolie. So we talked about

:35:30. > :35:31.openly from the beginning. They were only four and five

:35:32. > :35:33.when that happened. I always used the words.

:35:34. > :35:36.I used the word cancer, tumour. With small children it is

:35:37. > :35:39.the same as telling them you have Talk about it and say those words,

:35:40. > :35:45.because they are I made a decision

:35:46. > :35:51.from the very beginning that cancer I can't choose whether or not I get

:35:52. > :35:58.it but I can damn well decide how I am going to deal with

:35:59. > :36:00.the diagnosis in my own head. In terms of adults in your family,

:36:01. > :36:03.how did they react? Of course they were very worried

:36:04. > :36:05.for me. I actually think personally that is

:36:06. > :36:08.the worst part of being diagnosed, particularly multiple times,

:36:09. > :36:15.it is the knock-on effect. There is huge guilt involved

:36:16. > :36:17.with a cancer diagnosis because you know that you are going

:36:18. > :36:20.to upset other people. For me, I have felt a lot

:36:21. > :36:23.of the control can be taken away with the treatment and surgeries

:36:24. > :36:26.and whatnot that you have to have. So, I suppose I gained back

:36:27. > :36:29.the control in my own head It is not something I put on,

:36:30. > :36:34.actually. I have always been

:36:35. > :36:38.a glass half full kind of person. I kind of vowed that it

:36:39. > :36:43.wasn't going to change me. I suppose seeing that

:36:44. > :36:45.my writing career has developed, We still have the same home

:36:46. > :36:51.life that anyone else has. Yes, my teenagers hate me most of

:36:52. > :36:57.the time. My daughter has coped because

:36:58. > :37:04.of my chronic asthma with having to dial 999 at six years old because I

:37:05. > :37:08.had stopped breathing. She has grown up with

:37:09. > :37:11.chronic asthma and cancer. She was nine when I got diagnosed

:37:12. > :37:15.with cancer the first time. But you are right, Emma,

:37:16. > :37:19.it is that telling of the immediate It is telling your partner, telling

:37:20. > :37:29.the person who looks after you, and saying, well, yes, would you like to

:37:30. > :37:32.come into the surgery because we have

:37:33. > :37:34.a terminal diagnosis for you? So come in, bring your partner etc,

:37:35. > :37:38.and we will start to plan from here. You think, gosh, what can I do

:37:39. > :37:41.to make it better for them? What have you got to put in place

:37:42. > :37:50.so quickly? But if you start to panic like that,

:37:51. > :37:53.then I have found that there is a chance that it goes through

:37:54. > :37:56.the body that much quicker. If you take a breath,

:37:57. > :37:58.take a step back, and say, how can we deal with one

:37:59. > :38:02.at a time etc with no consequences? And involve the partner in

:38:03. > :38:08.as much of your treatment as possible and as you say, discuss it,

:38:09. > :38:11.discuss what is happening, but also the after-effects, why you feel so

:38:12. > :38:14.chronically tired, why you feel sick after the drugs, why you can't

:38:15. > :38:17.get up those stairs, and say And just keep active.

:38:18. > :38:24.Absolutely. How did those close to you

:38:25. > :38:28.handle your repeated diagnoses? The third time I was away

:38:29. > :38:31.on holiday for three months so I I had planned exactly what

:38:32. > :38:38.I was going to say. And how did they react?

:38:39. > :38:41.Just really sad. But I was positive about it.

:38:42. > :38:46.It wasn't going to stop me. I just tried to keep going

:38:47. > :38:53.and keep myself busy all the time. If there are people watching now who

:38:54. > :38:55.are being diagnosed for a second time or more,

:38:56. > :38:59.what would you say to them, Emma? The treatments have advanced

:39:00. > :39:08.so incredibly. Secondly, this is pot and kettle

:39:09. > :39:11.here, try not to Google things. It is always

:39:12. > :39:14.the worst case scenario. Every cancer is different

:39:15. > :39:19.with every single person. You may have the same name of cancer

:39:20. > :39:22.as somebody else but it doesn't necessarily mean that your prognosis

:39:23. > :39:26.or your body is going to deal with So talk to your medical team

:39:27. > :39:32.because they are the only ones who know the answers to your questions

:39:33. > :39:36.about your medical diagnosis. But I would certainly urge people

:39:37. > :39:40.to speak or write things down. You can still survive.

:39:41. > :39:45.Look at us. We are still here living normal

:39:46. > :39:50.lives, doing our normal thing. I would say that they do err

:39:51. > :39:54.on the side of caution to maybe set But say no.

:39:55. > :40:00.This isn't going to beat me. I am going to fight this.

:40:01. > :40:02.I want to be here. I love life

:40:03. > :40:06.and I want to do the best that I can for other people who are suffering

:40:07. > :40:08.but also their family and friends I think if you go with that positive

:40:09. > :40:12.attitude, it makes such a difference, it

:40:13. > :40:15.really does, when you say, right, God has put me on this earth

:40:16. > :40:22.not to take me away yet. And Victoria is back presenting the

:40:23. > :40:38.programme tomorrow. You have been getting in touch. This

:40:39. > :40:45.one says, my mother had various kinds of cancer. Over the years. But

:40:46. > :40:49.she lived to 78 years old. You have also been getting in touch about

:40:50. > :40:54.possible action against Islamic State in Syria. This one says, why

:40:55. > :41:01.is there any delay? IS have to be destroyed ASAP. Mark e-mails to

:41:02. > :41:06.say, I think we should eradicate IS but for the future we should event

:41:07. > :41:10.these groups earlier from becoming strong. Prevention is better than

:41:11. > :41:14.cure. This one says, Islamic State claimed responsibility for the

:41:15. > :41:19.attacks in Paris saying it was retaliation for French strikes in

:41:20. > :41:22.Syria. Surely if the UK joins in, we will become a target for a similar

:41:23. > :41:28.attack in the UK. It will make us less safe and more likely that IS

:41:29. > :41:32.will attack the UK in retaliation. This one says, we cannot stand on

:41:33. > :41:38.the sideline. We are all in this war together, even the Russians. It

:41:39. > :41:43.affects us all. This one says, would it not be better to get Iraq cleaned

:41:44. > :41:45.out of Isis so at least they would have nowhere to run and create a

:41:46. > :41:50.safe haven? A decade since laws allowed 24-hour

:41:51. > :42:04.drinking - how much has it shaped Let's get the latest weather update

:42:05. > :42:23.with Louise. A really hard frost in places this

:42:24. > :42:25.morning. We had our first snow across the tops of the higher ground

:42:26. > :42:29.through the Pennines and up into Scotland as well. But some beautiful

:42:30. > :42:39.sunshine to go with it. But it was bitterly cold. The wind was the key

:42:40. > :42:42.feature. It gave as some blue sky but I was on the side of a touchline

:42:43. > :42:53.on Saturday afternoon and it was freezing. I also understand that one

:42:54. > :42:57.of the ski resorts in Cumbria was open this weekend because they had

:42:58. > :43:04.enough snow. You cannot believe it, really. But I am pleased to say that

:43:05. > :43:16.we are starting to see a change. We have had all faces of autumn,

:43:17. > :43:24.really, this November. Over the next few days, although temperatures will

:43:25. > :43:28.yo-yo a little, it will be on average about normal for this type

:43:29. > :43:32.of the year. Today, after that cold start, we will see a good deal of

:43:33. > :43:42.try weather across England and Wales. But change already into the

:43:43. > :43:51.far north-west. Because it is a south-westerly, temperatures will be

:43:52. > :43:54.on the up by the end of the day. Some of it could be quite heavy for

:43:55. > :43:58.a time in Northern Ireland and western Scotland. Further south,

:43:59. > :44:08.weakling onto some hazy sunshine but it will be a cold afternoon. -- we

:44:09. > :44:16.cling on. Moving through the night tonight, not too much in the way of

:44:17. > :44:23.frost as the cloud, wind and rain sinks southwards. Further south, the

:44:24. > :44:33.cloud and rain will linger first thing in the morning. Then we are

:44:34. > :44:36.into a blustery day of sunny spells and scattered showers. Most of the

:44:37. > :44:43.showers tomorrow will be more frequent across the far north and

:44:44. > :44:50.west. But certainly milder. Double digits back down in the south. High

:44:51. > :44:53.pressure very much dominating through the middle of the week out

:44:54. > :44:57.in the Atlantic. The winds swinging round in a clockwise to erections

:44:58. > :45:07.giving us this north-westerly flow on Wednesday. -- in a clockwise

:45:08. > :45:25.direction. Temperatures hovering at around 6-8. By the end of the week

:45:26. > :45:30.we are dragging in this milder air. So, after that frosty start,

:45:31. > :45:37.gradually turning milder. But the winds will certainly play a part.

:45:38. > :45:39.Hello, it's Monday, it's ten o'clock.

:45:40. > :45:42.Welcome to the programme if you've just joined us.

:45:43. > :45:47.As David Cameron says he wants Britain to join forces with France,

:45:48. > :45:49.is UK military action against so-called Islamic State

:45:50. > :46:09.I firmly support the action that President Hollande has taken to

:46:10. > :46:16.strike Isis in Syria, and I firmly believe that Britain should, too. It

:46:17. > :46:20.is 15 years since we started the war on terror, and 12 years since George

:46:21. > :46:22.W Bush declared it won. We need a new approach.

:46:23. > :46:25.We'll ask how likely our involvement is and whether IS can be defeated

:46:26. > :46:29.Brussels is still in lockdown as a series of anti-terror raids

:46:30. > :46:43.I am Christian Fraser live in Brussels at the main station this

:46:44. > :46:46.morning. The metro system and schools remained closed, and people

:46:47. > :46:49.are being urged to stay away from the city centre.

:46:50. > :46:54.And it's ten years since 24 hour drinking laws were introduced.

:46:55. > :47:05.We want to know what you think about 24-hour drinking? Terrible! Ed

:47:06. > :47:09.Snowden, who on earth can include 24 hours a day. -- it is not, who on

:47:10. > :47:15.earth can drink 24 hours a day? David Cameron has been discussing

:47:16. > :47:18.plans to tackle Islamic extremism with French president

:47:19. > :47:21.Francois Hollande in Paris. The Prime Minister says it is

:47:22. > :47:24.his "firm conviction" that the UK should join international air

:47:25. > :47:25.strikes against Islamic State militants in Syria and he would make

:47:26. > :47:30.his case to MPs this week. 16 people were arrested in Brussels

:47:31. > :47:35.overnight as Belgian police carried out raids to find those connected to

:47:36. > :47:38.the Paris gun and bombing attacks. But the key suspect, Salah Abdeslam,

:47:39. > :47:40.wasn't found. The city remains on lockdown with

:47:41. > :47:42.schools, universities Plans for two rapid reaction strike

:47:43. > :47:51.brigades and a new fleet of maritime patrol aircraft -

:47:52. > :47:55.are some of the key measures expected in the Government's defence

:47:56. > :47:58.and security review - which will be Overall the defence equipment budget

:47:59. > :48:20.is increasing by ?12 billion. The IPCC is urging police

:48:21. > :48:26.commissioners to take reports of grooming more seriously. 14-year-old

:48:27. > :48:33.Breck Bednar was killed by a man he met online. It is said that major

:48:34. > :48:39.reforms are needed to prevent a major disaster such as the bowler

:48:40. > :48:49.crisis. -- Ebola crisis. One of the last four white rhinos in

:48:50. > :48:52.the world has had to be put down following a bacterial infection.

:48:53. > :48:54.Nola was 41. Let's catch up with all the sport

:48:55. > :48:58.now with Jessica, and there've been security fears surrounding the

:48:59. > :49:00.Davis Cup final in Belgium. Yes, it is Joanna -

:49:01. > :49:03.the Great Britain team did delay their departure for 24 hours,

:49:04. > :49:06.but they're on their way to Ghent this morning, for the final

:49:07. > :49:08.against Belgium on Friday. The venue is only 35 miles

:49:09. > :49:10.from Brussels, which is still on high alert,

:49:11. > :49:13.due to fears of a terrorist attack. Our tennis correspondent

:49:14. > :49:18.Russell Fuller has the latest. The British team will practice for

:49:19. > :49:23.the first town this afternoon on the clay-court which was laid over the

:49:24. > :49:27.weekend at Flanders Expo arena. All indications are that this tie will

:49:28. > :49:32.go ahead, the final will begin on Friday. On the ITF are gearing up

:49:33. > :49:36.for it, and the chief executive of the tennis Federation in Belgium has

:49:37. > :49:41.told the BBC that they have not had any indication from the Government

:49:42. > :49:45.or security forces that they cannot proceed. Security has been

:49:46. > :49:49.heightened dramatically since the attacks on Paris. It is very

:49:50. > :49:57.unsettling for many people who are making travel plans to get to Ghent,

:49:58. > :50:01.some via Brussels. They will be under tight security as they go from

:50:02. > :50:04.the venue to their hotel, but as things stand, the final will be

:50:05. > :50:07.played over three days in Ghent from Friday until Sunday.

:50:08. > :50:10.Leicester City were bottom of the table in April,

:50:11. > :50:14.but thanks largely to this man, Jamie Vardy, they're now top.

:50:15. > :50:17.A goal in their 3-0 win at Newcastle meant Vardy equalled

:50:18. > :50:20.the record of scoring in ten consecutive Premier League games.

:50:21. > :50:24.And Harry Kane's two goals helped Tottenham thump West Ham 4-1 -

:50:25. > :50:32.that equals the club record of 12 league games unbeaten.

:50:33. > :50:39.Now, you may remember seeing the boxer Anthony Crolla on this

:50:40. > :50:41.programme a few months ago. 11 months ago boxer Anthony Crolla

:50:42. > :50:44.was in a hospital bed suffering from injuries that could have ended

:50:45. > :50:47.his career, after trying to stop At the weekend,

:50:48. > :50:54.he became WBA lightweight champion. With the minimum of fuss, Anthony

:50:55. > :50:57.Crolla became a world champion. But the reaction gives away just how

:50:58. > :51:02.much it has taken him to get to this point. Less than a year ago, he was

:51:03. > :51:07.left with a fractured skull and broken ankle after tackling two

:51:08. > :51:13.burglars at a neighbour's house. Last Christmas I was sat on that

:51:14. > :51:16.couch their with my leg in plaster. I was skin and bones because I had

:51:17. > :51:20.lost so much weight through the medication and stuff like that. It

:51:21. > :51:24.was still up in the air whether I would fight again, and this

:51:25. > :51:27.Christmas I am going to have a belt under the Christmas tree, and a lot

:51:28. > :51:35.to look forward to next year. Victory over Dali is Peres makes him

:51:36. > :51:41.a star, but this star is driven by quiet steel. I made a promise in

:51:42. > :51:44.that hospital bed that I will come back stronger than I have ever done,

:51:45. > :51:50.and I have done that. I came so close to losing it all, and there

:51:51. > :51:58.would be a huge void in my life. I wanted make sure I take advantage, I

:51:59. > :52:01.have been given a second chance. Next year there may be a at Old

:52:02. > :52:11.Trafford, home of his beloved Manchester United, but it will also

:52:12. > :52:16.bring security to his family,. My end coming into boxing was to win a

:52:17. > :52:20.world title, and the other aim financially was to get my hours paid

:52:21. > :52:24.for. But now I have a family of Mayan, you want to support them, and

:52:25. > :52:28.if I can set my kids up for when they are, that is the next step.

:52:29. > :52:35.Before that, Anthony Crolla deserves a rest. It has been a long fight.

:52:36. > :52:42.What an inspirational tale. That is all the sport for now. I will have

:52:43. > :52:45.the headlines at 10:30am. Thank you, Jess.

:52:46. > :52:46.Thank you for joining us this morning.

:52:47. > :52:48.Welcome to the programme if you've just joined us,

:52:49. > :52:55.we're on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:52:56. > :52:59.Throughout the next hour we will bring you the latest rating news and

:53:00. > :53:00.developing stories. Your contributions to this

:53:01. > :53:20.programme and your expertise Lots of you getting in touch about

:53:21. > :53:22.Victoria's interview with the cancer survivors.

:53:23. > :53:24.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:53:25. > :53:26.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever you

:53:27. > :53:29.are - via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria,

:53:30. > :53:34.and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

:53:35. > :53:36.by going to add topics and searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'.

:53:37. > :53:38.Brussels is still in a state of lockdown with fear

:53:39. > :53:42.Schools, the metro system and all public buildings remain

:53:43. > :53:48.Police have arrested 16 people in a series of raids aimed

:53:49. > :53:51.at targeting militants linked to the Paris attacks which killed 130

:53:52. > :53:55.The key suspect in the bombings and shootings - Salah Abdeslam -

:53:56. > :54:06.Our correspondent Christian Fraser is in the Belgian capital.

:54:07. > :54:23.What's the latest? A lot of police action last night

:54:24. > :54:34.around the Grande Lace. -- Grande Place. They raided 22 places around

:54:35. > :54:39.Brussels, 16 arrests, one man was shot in a car that was driven at

:54:40. > :54:43.police in the Molenbeek area, and they tell us the raids will

:54:44. > :54:49.continue. The threat level remains at four in Brussels. Behind us here

:54:50. > :54:55.is the central station. Trains are still running this morning, some

:54:56. > :55:00.leading the lots -- leaving for Luxembourg and Amsterdam. We have a

:55:01. > :55:03.mournful tune outside the station here from a violinist, and this

:55:04. > :55:09.armoured personnel carrier parked in the square and a visible presence of

:55:10. > :55:13.security inside the station. Just up the road, lots of bosses. My

:55:14. > :55:19.impression is because it is a better day, people are getting on with it.

:55:20. > :55:23.Some companies said, don't come into work, but most people are going

:55:24. > :55:28.about their lives as normal. Even though the main suspect in the Paris

:55:29. > :55:33.attacks is still at large, Salah Abdeslam has not been found. Despite

:55:34. > :55:38.those raids around Brussels, police say they are still hunting for him.

:55:39. > :55:41.So the raids will continue. We have heard from his brother Mohammed who

:55:42. > :55:45.was arrested by police the first weekend of the investigation, but

:55:46. > :55:50.was released after it seemed that he was here throughout. He has been

:55:51. > :55:54.talking about his brother, what sort of person he was, and trying to sell

:55:55. > :55:58.the story that at Salah Abdeslam had a change of heart at the last

:55:59. > :56:06.minute. TRANSLATION: It is more than my

:56:07. > :56:12.hope, it is my belief. Salah is a clever man. I think at the last

:56:13. > :56:16.moment he decided to move back. I think he decided not to do the thing

:56:17. > :56:20.he wanted to do. I have to remind you that today, we don't know all

:56:21. > :56:24.the elements of the investigation. We do not know whether he killed

:56:25. > :56:31.people or not. We do not know if he was there on the actual location of

:56:32. > :56:34.the attack. You told him to surrender, and yet as of now, he

:56:35. > :56:39.hasn't done so. What would you like to say to him? I would like to tell

:56:40. > :56:44.him that we are not afraid, and that is why we are talking to the press.

:56:45. > :56:48.We wanted to surrender. What has he got to lose? Why would he

:56:49. > :56:53.surrender? First, he might bring us the answers we are waiting for. For

:56:54. > :56:58.his family and also the victims' families and all others looking to

:56:59. > :57:04.us at the moment. We would rather see him in jail than in a cemetery.

:57:05. > :57:09.The brother of the missing gunmen Salah Abdeslam. He lives about 200

:57:10. > :57:16.metres from the town hall with his family, and he has worked for the

:57:17. > :57:21.local municipality for ten years. Let's speak to the adviser to the

:57:22. > :57:29.mayor. You know Mohammed well. Are you convinced? I hope that what he

:57:30. > :57:36.is saying is the truth. I don't want to give my opinion, it is

:57:37. > :57:41.difficult. We really hope that he respects is conscious and what he is

:57:42. > :57:43.saying is the reality. We heard from the interior minister over the

:57:44. > :57:47.weekend who was under enormous pressure. He wants to know more

:57:48. > :57:51.about the people who live in your district, even if, he says, that

:57:52. > :57:54.means the local authority bangs on every door and demands to know who

:57:55. > :57:59.lives there. He doesn't think you have a grid of it. It is a difficult

:58:00. > :58:06.question because it is not possible in the facts to go and knock on each

:58:07. > :58:16.door and know who is living there. When someone arrives in the minister

:58:17. > :58:19.palatine and moves in -- in the municipality and moves in, it is an

:58:20. > :58:23.illusion to think that somebody can go and knock on their doctor and ask

:58:24. > :58:30.them if there is someone here who shouldn't be here. So we have to be

:58:31. > :58:35.realistic and not say things that are demagogic. Salah Abdeslam has a

:58:36. > :58:39.network of supporters and people who could look after him in Mullen Beek.

:58:40. > :58:47.The brothers run a bar, which you close down two weeks ago. So where

:58:48. > :58:52.could he be hiding? The problem with Molenbeek is in a poor area,

:58:53. > :58:58.everybody knows each other, so people are taking in the fear of

:58:59. > :59:04.what is going to be. They know the brothers, they have been with them

:59:05. > :59:10.at school, so I think the only a to go on is to have confidence, links

:59:11. > :59:15.with the population, that people know where to go, where to speak and

:59:16. > :59:19.be secure when they are going to say something. Are you buying this

:59:20. > :59:22.impression that Muhammad is trying to sell that his brother is an

:59:23. > :59:28.intelligent person? You shut down the bar because they were drug

:59:29. > :59:32.dealing. You told me a story of them kicking in the door of the housing

:59:33. > :59:36.minister. It doesn't sound like a family that was respectful of the

:59:37. > :59:42.local community. It is difficult, because some people who know the

:59:43. > :59:47.family say that they don't understand that the brothers have

:59:48. > :59:52.become as far on the things they have done. But you and the mayor

:59:53. > :59:57.don't believe that, do you? I hope in each family there can be

:59:58. > :00:01.different kinds of people, but I don't want to accuse someone without

:00:02. > :00:08.knowing what effectively was happening. There are something like

:00:09. > :00:11.5000 people who have gone to Syria to train and fight, and it is

:00:12. > :00:15.estimated we don't know about half of them. We also know that some of

:00:16. > :00:21.the suicide bombers from the Stade de France came across with others,

:00:22. > :00:24.so it is perfectly possible in a transient community like Molenbeek

:00:25. > :00:29.that there are people hiding there who you just don't know about? There

:00:30. > :00:40.are in fact from Molenbeek 30 people who went to Syria. In one small

:00:41. > :00:50.community? In 95,000 people. We know that some of them died there. And

:00:51. > :01:02.about six or seven came back. That is the 30 know about. The state

:01:03. > :01:08.security were told that. It is not a matter of the municipality. It is

:01:09. > :01:19.the state security who told us that. So the problem of this place is that

:01:20. > :01:23.people were staying there in this area, people quite poor, people who

:01:24. > :01:30.don't speak our language. There are many people living there, coming

:01:31. > :01:36.year after year, and we have made a quite close community. They are

:01:37. > :01:41.afraid of what is going to happen. I think if you don't know the language

:01:42. > :01:48.of the country where you are, how can you go and say things, where are

:01:49. > :01:51.you going to? And it is that thing that we have to put with the

:01:52. > :01:57.community, not to discriminate everybody, not but everybody in the

:01:58. > :02:05.same, how do you say. The same basket. Thank you very much indeed.

:02:06. > :02:08.That does explain, Joanna, why there is a problem gathering intelligence

:02:09. > :02:16.in the Mullen Beek area, and in several other district around

:02:17. > :02:20.Brussels. -- the Molenbeek area. The terror threat level stays at four,

:02:21. > :02:22.but on the back of the terror level raids we have seen, the Prime

:02:23. > :02:33.Minister will review whether that needs to stay in place later today.

:02:34. > :02:40.David Cameron says Britain and France will step up co-operation,

:02:41. > :02:47.including greater intelligence sharing. We face a shared threat and

:02:48. > :02:48.we must share information and intelligence better to protect

:02:49. > :02:53.ourselves from these brutal terrorists. We are already doing

:02:54. > :02:56.this but today we have agreed to step up our efforts even further and

:02:57. > :02:59.work more closely with our European neighbours. We must do more to

:03:00. > :03:06.tackle the threat of returning foreign fighters. This requires a

:03:07. > :03:11.cross European effort. We need a stronger external European border to

:03:12. > :03:14.perfect security more effectively with systematic security checks

:03:15. > :03:19.greater sharing of data are amongst members take. We must without

:03:20. > :03:22.further delay finally agreed rules which will enable us to share

:03:23. > :03:26.passenger name records. It is frankly ridiculous that we can get

:03:27. > :03:30.more information from countries outside the EU that we can from each

:03:31. > :03:33.other. And we must do more to crack down on the trade in illegal

:03:34. > :03:36.firearms to stop them getting into the hands of terrorists who are

:03:37. > :03:41.determined to wreak such misery. David Cameron has been meeting the

:03:42. > :03:43.French president, Francois Hollande, in Paris to disucss the fight

:03:44. > :03:53.against the Islamic State group. Our Really it was a fleeting visit from

:03:54. > :03:57.the Prime Minister this morning just to show the unity that he wants to

:03:58. > :04:00.present to the world along with Francois Hollande following those

:04:01. > :04:06.attacks last week. But also to come up with a plan to deal with it. It

:04:07. > :04:11.is really a 2 pronged approach. The first, on counter-terrorism

:04:12. > :04:15.measures. Greater data-sharing, greater combating of the arms trade

:04:16. > :04:18.in Europe. He said it was frankly ridiculous that information could

:04:19. > :04:21.not be shared that easily with European allies as easily as it

:04:22. > :04:28.could be shared with non-European allies. But also greater

:04:29. > :04:34.coordination on Syria and Iraq. President Hollande has deployed an

:04:35. > :04:40.aircraft carrier to continue with air strikes inside Syria and the

:04:41. > :04:45.British Prime Minister has given him the use of a British base in the

:04:46. > :04:51.Mediterranean. We know the UK has not sanctioned yet British strikes

:04:52. > :04:53.on Syria, but it is something which David Cameron wants to do and

:04:54. > :05:04.Francois Hollande will be hoping that he does just that.

:05:05. > :05:08.It's ten years since changes to alcohol

:05:09. > :05:18.licencing made 24 hour drinking a reality, or at least a possibility.

:05:19. > :05:21.Plans for two rapid reaction strike brigades and a new fleet

:05:22. > :05:29.of maritime patrol aircraft - are some of the key measures

:05:30. > :05:32.at short notice and an extra ?12 billion of funding for equipment are

:05:33. > :05:35.expected to be announced by David Cameron later today.

:05:36. > :05:38.It is part of the government's review of defence and spending.

:05:39. > :05:40.But with an increased terror threat fear, is it enough?

:05:41. > :05:45.Defence and diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus joins me now.

:05:46. > :05:52.The context is that at the last Strategic Defence Review, a number

:05:53. > :05:56.of risks were taken, if you like. Dominated by the economic climate, a

:05:57. > :06:02.number of cuts had to be made. We lost maritime patrol aircraft, we

:06:03. > :06:05.lost the carriers and the jump jets. Those are now being fulfilled. We

:06:06. > :06:12.are going to have nine of the American maritime patrol aircraft.

:06:13. > :06:16.We are going to be buying the F-35ss for the carriers at a

:06:17. > :06:21.slightly faster rate. Remember, we have already decided to have two

:06:22. > :06:24.carriers operational. There will be about ?12 billion more spent on

:06:25. > :06:29.equipment. We have already heard about improvements for the special

:06:30. > :06:34.forces, improvements for cyber defence, more drones and so on. So,

:06:35. > :06:38.all of the sexy things we are hearing about. What we do not know

:06:39. > :06:45.so much about is the less sexy areas like logistics, the ability to

:06:46. > :06:51.maintain and sustain these new things in the field. Is this about

:06:52. > :06:56.filling in caps which emerged after the last spending review in the cuts

:06:57. > :06:59.or is it a change of strategy? I think it is a recognition that we

:07:00. > :07:07.are now looking at new threats which have emerged. So-called Islamic

:07:08. > :07:14.State are much more bullish -- Islamist state, a much more bullish

:07:15. > :07:18.and difficult Russia. But I think overall, apart from those of two

:07:19. > :07:21.challenges, there is clearly a need to have much more fixable forces,

:07:22. > :07:29.which is where the 2 strike brigades come in. Forces which can be moved

:07:30. > :07:35.to trouble spots quickly. So, within, let's be honest, relatively

:07:36. > :07:41.limited means, money is still tight, we are trying to reconfigure

:07:42. > :07:42.the Armed Forces to give that more flexible capability. Of course it

:07:43. > :07:44.comes at a price. Lieutenant General Sir Simon Mayall

:07:45. > :07:47.was an adviser at the Ministry of Defence until this year,

:07:48. > :07:50.and Jimmy Carroll is a recently retired officer who was commended

:07:51. > :08:03.for bravery whilst seeing active Do you trust the politicians to get

:08:04. > :08:08.it right when it comes to military spending priorities? Yes, I think as

:08:09. > :08:15.we have seen in the last review that cuts had to be made. The Government

:08:16. > :08:19.had to cope with a massive deficit in the budget. However it has had an

:08:20. > :08:23.effect on the troops now. Although we have got this uplift moving

:08:24. > :08:27.forward, it is not until 2023 that we will see a lot of those effects.

:08:28. > :08:33.I think we need to actually discuss the troops on the ground and where

:08:34. > :08:37.the incentive is for them and to keep the talent coming in. Without

:08:38. > :08:45.the talent we will not be able to react capably to what is facing us.

:08:46. > :08:48.I think that is the key part here, really keeping the morale amongst

:08:49. > :08:54.the troops as well and reinforcing the standards that they have. You

:08:55. > :08:57.have relatively recently left - how would you describe the morale? I

:08:58. > :09:03.left two years ago now. Those who are still in, morale is probably

:09:04. > :09:07.waning a little bit. Since the drawdown in Afghanistan, a lot of

:09:08. > :09:11.people have gone and done the job that they were training to do and

:09:12. > :09:18.now they are looking at what is next. But limited resources are

:09:19. > :09:23.there. And actually it is the added benefits really which they hold

:09:24. > :09:29.onto. We can have all the kit and equipment we want but unless you are

:09:30. > :09:34.actually rewarding the troops on the ground, that is where the lack of

:09:35. > :09:40.capability will lie. What is your perspective on this? Yes, I would

:09:41. > :09:46.say credit where it is due. The last defence review was a major blow. We

:09:47. > :09:49.thought we were going to take some cuts to army manpower. They were

:09:50. > :09:56.worse than we expected. I think that had a significant effect on

:09:57. > :10:00.recruiting and retention and I utterly echoed Jimmy's point. We

:10:01. > :10:06.have seen what happens dare I say with the Iraqi army, where you put a

:10:07. > :10:09.lot of money and investment into it, but actually equipment and

:10:10. > :10:13.training does not make for a cohesive force. The backbone of the

:10:14. > :10:19.services is the quality of young men and women who join, and critically,

:10:20. > :10:22.those who stay. We have definitely addressed the number of capability

:10:23. > :10:29.gaps which were left. I think we all agree the 2010 review was done in a

:10:30. > :10:34.huge rush. The background was an appalling financial situation. I

:10:35. > :10:38.think we have been mugged a bit by reality in terms of some of the

:10:39. > :10:43.risks we took on that. I think the Prime Minister and the Government

:10:44. > :10:49.have faced up to that. I do think we have a current fight, which we are

:10:50. > :10:53.very aware of. We have a threat from areas where Russia has been very

:10:54. > :10:56.resurgent and very aggressive. I don't think we should ever forget

:10:57. > :11:00.that while we look at the situation in the Middle east. We clearly have

:11:01. > :11:06.a major threat rising from Islamic extremism in the round. We need to

:11:07. > :11:09.address that as well as make sure that the Iranians and the Russians

:11:10. > :11:14.are not able to take advantage of that. But also every generation has

:11:15. > :11:18.to hold the Armed Forces in trust for the next generation. And I do

:11:19. > :11:24.think that although the headlines will be about excellent, fantastic

:11:25. > :11:27.investment, and I applaud the Government for that, actually making

:11:28. > :11:34.sure that we have the right quality men and women in the Armed Forces,

:11:35. > :11:37.who wants to join and then want to stay because they Ken Sio really

:11:38. > :11:43.productive, long-term career on behalf of the nation. And I really

:11:44. > :11:46.hope we see the Government acknowledging the real importance of

:11:47. > :11:53.the manpower within the Armed Forces. It must not be looked on as

:11:54. > :11:58.overheads. Equipment is not capability unless it is manned with

:11:59. > :12:03.the correctly trained men and women. I think 42,000 members of the Armed

:12:04. > :12:07.Forces have gone over five years and that is ground which is not going to

:12:08. > :12:12.be made up, is it? Not quickly. We have tried to mitigate some of that

:12:13. > :12:16.with reserves. I commend that, I think the reserve army does a

:12:17. > :12:20.fantastic job but inherently they are not as flexible as Wood Hill is.

:12:21. > :12:27.I have always argued for a long-time, for me, for a military

:12:28. > :12:30.our size, with our responsibilities and wealth and leadership role in

:12:31. > :12:37.the UN and Nato and relationships around the world, there was

:12:38. > :12:40.something totemic about 100,000, which I think played to people

:12:41. > :12:44.feeling that they were part of an organisation which was well

:12:45. > :12:50.grounded. Clearly numbers alone are not enough. Money alone is not

:12:51. > :12:57.enough. You can waste money. But I think this human dimension is

:12:58. > :13:04.extremely important. Jimmy has won two gallantry medals in

:13:05. > :13:07.Afghanistan, he has been so close to the quality of people that we have

:13:08. > :13:12.attracted and we must keep them. This is a good start, I want to be

:13:13. > :13:19.clear. I applaud the Government for what they have done. Let's continue

:13:20. > :13:25.to build. We can have this capability uplift and investment in

:13:26. > :13:30.equipment and technology, but from the last review, where we are

:13:31. > :13:39.lacking is this deficit in manpower. You do not create soldiers, sailors

:13:40. > :13:43.and airmen overnight. Therefore you have got to train up these people.

:13:44. > :13:48.The other thing is that last week, the Government spoke about extra

:13:49. > :13:53.funds going to the special forces. I think this is very important. You

:13:54. > :13:59.can buy more kit and equipment for the special forces and they will

:14:00. > :14:03.happily take it on, but you cannot just buy extra special forces

:14:04. > :14:07.soldiers. We have really depleted the pool where we take those

:14:08. > :14:16.soldiers from. When we are a much larger family of 85,000-100,000, we

:14:17. > :14:20.were still finding it hard to fill the special forces. And so if we

:14:21. > :14:25.want to keep the quality of the soldier and to be leading the way in

:14:26. > :14:31.special forces soldier in which Tanya holds itself in, we need to

:14:32. > :14:34.keep that talent pool which and swell it. And so the reduction in

:14:35. > :14:40.manpower which we have been hit with is really affecting that.

:14:41. > :14:44.Afghanistan has had its drawdown on those who wanted to go towards

:14:45. > :14:47.special forces because a lot of regular soldiers were getting far

:14:48. > :14:53.more active service than they ever saw before. And it is addressing

:14:54. > :14:58.that again going forward. You can always look at the now but you have

:14:59. > :15:02.got to look to the future and plan. There are no quick fix solutions,

:15:03. > :15:07.especially to manpower. You cannot buy an off-the-shelf product. It is

:15:08. > :15:13.keeping those soldiers and sailors and airmen in and incentivised

:15:14. > :15:15.because we want them to stay in for the long game because they will be

:15:16. > :15:18.the leaders going forward. Thanks for joining us today -

:15:19. > :15:35.still to come before 11. Has 24-hour drinking made us more

:15:36. > :15:39.likely to abuse alcohol? And one of only four white rhinos in the world

:15:40. > :15:46.has died. We will ask if anything can be done to save the species.

:15:47. > :15:47.An update on the main news this morning.

:15:48. > :15:51.Francois Hollande have held talks together in Paris to discuss

:15:52. > :15:54.tackling Islamic State militants following the attacks in the French

:15:55. > :15:56.capital. The Prime Minister has offered France the use of a British

:15:57. > :15:59.airbase in Cyprus for air strikes against the group in Syria. He'll

:16:00. > :16:06.make his case for British military action to MPs later this week.

:16:07. > :16:13.I firmly support the action resident Hoiland has taken to strike Isil in

:16:14. > :16:15.Syria, and it is my firm conviction that Britain should do so, too.

:16:16. > :16:21.overnight as Belgian police carried out raids to find those connected to

:16:22. > :16:24.the Paris attacks. But the key suspect - Salah Abdeslam - wasn't

:16:25. > :16:27.found. The highest level of terror alert remains in place with schools,

:16:28. > :16:39.universities and the metro system all closed.

:16:40. > :16:41.Plans for two rapid reaction strike brigades and a new fleet

:16:42. > :16:46.of maritime patrol aircraft are some of the key measures

:16:47. > :16:48.expected in the Government's defence and security review which will be

:16:49. > :16:53.Overall the defence equipment budget is increasing by ?12 billion.

:16:54. > :16:55.The Independent Police Complaints Commission is urging police chiefs

:16:56. > :16:57.to tackle reports of grooming more effectively.

:16:58. > :16:59.The recommendation follows the murder of 14-year-old Breck Bednar,

:17:00. > :17:03.who was befriended online through a gaming website by his killer.

:17:04. > :17:06.One of only four northern white rhinos left in the world has died

:17:07. > :17:11.Nola was 41, and had to be put down after she

:17:12. > :17:20.Let's get the sport now with Jessica, and the Davis Cup final in

:17:21. > :17:21.Belgium still scheduled to start

:17:22. > :17:40.The final will go ahead as planned on Friday. The GB team travelled to

:17:41. > :17:43.get this morning, and there will be increased security surrounding

:17:44. > :17:47.players and spectators. Harry Kane scored twice for Tottenham in their

:17:48. > :17:49.4-1 win over West Ham as they extended their unbeaten run to 12

:17:50. > :17:53.games, equalling the club record. But Mike Aberdeen

:17:54. > :17:57.missed the chance to move up to second in the Scottish Premiership.

:17:58. > :18:04.They took an early lead at Hamilton, but then let in a lake -- a late

:18:05. > :18:09.equaliser. And Rory McIlroy said he couldn't wait for next year after

:18:10. > :18:11.finishing the season as Europe's number one golfer and securing the

:18:12. > :18:16.race to divide title for the third time in five years. That is all your

:18:17. > :18:19.sports headlines this morning. Thank you, Jess. See you later.

:18:20. > :18:21.It looks increasingly likely that Britain will take military action

:18:22. > :18:23.against so-called Islamic State in Syria before Christmas.

:18:24. > :18:27.The PM says he will be setting out his plans to Parliament this week

:18:28. > :18:32.Earlier on the programme four politicians gave us their

:18:33. > :18:45.I want to be open-minded, but I want to see a complete plan, and I don't

:18:46. > :18:49.think that sound bites about standing up for British interests is

:18:50. > :18:53.good enough. We need a complete plan. Even if we were to take out

:18:54. > :19:00.eyes is, what would happen in the vacuum? What would fill it? We are

:19:01. > :19:04.bombing IS in Iraq now, that got through the House of Commons. If

:19:05. > :19:07.they are a threat to our country, it surely it is logical we would attack

:19:08. > :19:14.them wherever they are, Iraq, Syria or elsewhere? It makes military

:19:15. > :19:18.sense. What we need to do is look towards how we find a final peaceful

:19:19. > :19:25.settlement in Syria that doesn't involve Assad, that gets rid of ices

:19:26. > :19:28.and this hideous organisation. But we need to think about what comes

:19:29. > :19:32.next in Syria, and that means focusing on diplomacy.

:19:33. > :19:36.We think the right thing is to have a plan for peace in Syria. Building

:19:37. > :19:43.on what was done in Vienna last weekend, and bringing forward and

:19:44. > :19:48.urgent plan for a ceasefire beyond non-Daesh forces in Syria. We also

:19:49. > :19:54.think the right thing to do is to realise that bringing about peace in

:19:55. > :19:58.Syria is the way to tackle both the refugee and terror crisis which is

:19:59. > :20:04.afflicting Europe and elsewhere at the moment.

:20:05. > :20:08.Norman Smith is in Westminster, and asked Frank Gardner for some

:20:09. > :20:11.analysis. What are you expecting in terms of a potential vote? I think

:20:12. > :20:16.if David Cameron went for a vote today, he would rob a blue win it.

:20:17. > :20:28.As it is, he wants to make absolutely sure he wins it. -- he

:20:29. > :20:31.would probably win it. There was a report out opposing military action

:20:32. > :20:34.on Thursday, there will probably written statement at oral statement.

:20:35. > :20:38.Downing Street say they will then leave the issue, in their words, to

:20:39. > :20:47.percolate in a few days. They will see where opinion is, and if they

:20:48. > :20:51.think they can win, they will go for a vote. And then we could be

:20:52. > :20:56.involved in military action within days, because just from where I am

:20:57. > :21:00.sitting, it seems the mood in Parliament now is massively

:21:01. > :21:08.different to what it was back in 2013 when MPs voted against bombing

:21:09. > :21:14.Assad. That vote was almost more cock up and confusion than anything,

:21:15. > :21:25.which is why Mr Cameron lost it. But many MPs are much more aware of the

:21:26. > :21:36.outrages in Tunisia, and of course Paris. And the bombing of the Sinai

:21:37. > :21:39.plane. The Vienna peace process and the putative new Syrian government

:21:40. > :21:45.in 18 months, and last but by minnow means least there is a UN

:21:46. > :21:48.resolution. It doesn't specifically authorise force, but it is still

:21:49. > :21:51.there. When you put that package together, I think a lot of MPs will

:21:52. > :21:58.grasp that and say, that is good enough. So I fully expect Mr Cameron

:21:59. > :22:01.will win this boat. Talking to MPs earlier, they are

:22:02. > :22:05.concerned about the potential ramifications in Syria terms of

:22:06. > :22:09.Bashar al-Assad and potentially the power vacuum. All these issues that

:22:10. > :22:13.you expect David Cameron to address before the vote, or is he likely to

:22:14. > :22:22.try to keep it tightly focused on IS? There were half a dozen

:22:23. > :22:24.questions raised around the legality of any action, the military

:22:25. > :22:30.effectiveness, the diplomatic aces for any action. Post-conflict

:22:31. > :22:34.planning, humanitarian assistance, whole load of questions set out

:22:35. > :22:38.which Mr Cameron will address. Having spoken to be blue around him,

:22:39. > :22:43.it seems to me he has pretty much got answers to all of the bar one,

:22:44. > :22:48.and the one which I don't think he has an answer to is the issue of

:22:49. > :22:50.ground troops, because there is a view expressed in the Foreign

:22:51. > :22:56.Affairs Committee report that bombing from the air is not going to

:22:57. > :23:00.be enough, there needs to be ground troops. Pretty much every nation

:23:01. > :23:05.says, not us. So that leaves the question, who is? And Mr Fallon this

:23:06. > :23:08.morning was floating the idea that there might be some deal done

:23:09. > :23:13.between resident Assad's troops and the Free Syrian Army. Given that

:23:14. > :23:17.they have been trying to blow each other up for years, that is

:23:18. > :23:21.extremely unlikely, so you are then left casting around saying, who is

:23:22. > :23:25.going to do it? Will other Muslim nations offer their troops? May be

:23:26. > :23:30.Jordan Whelan. It is hard to see who will be the ground troops that will

:23:31. > :23:35.actually get on the ground and get rid of IS. And I'm not sure they yet

:23:36. > :23:38.have an answer for that. Frank, air strikes without ground

:23:39. > :23:43.troops. How effective would that be?

:23:44. > :23:47.Exactly as Norman says, if you only have air strikes, all you do is

:23:48. > :23:52.contain it. Very few big wars have been won by air strikes alone. The

:23:53. > :23:56.Israelis made this mistake in 2006 thinking they could go into Lebanon

:23:57. > :24:01.from the air and bomb Hezbollah back into their bunkers, and they had to

:24:02. > :24:04.go in on the ground in the end. Western countries don't want to

:24:05. > :24:10.commit ground forces at all, and the countries of the region don't want

:24:11. > :24:13.them either to do it. As Norman says, it is not that easy to put

:24:14. > :24:18.together a force on the ground, because it is like a patchwork quilt

:24:19. > :24:22.of lots of different interests. There is a fair degree of wishful

:24:23. > :24:27.thinking in Whitehall that there is going to be a future Syrian

:24:28. > :24:32.government with Russian connivance that will quite possibly even invite

:24:33. > :24:37.in a Western Force or a US international force, possibly eight

:24:38. > :24:42.UN force that will eventually tackle ices on the ground. But that is

:24:43. > :24:46.still quite some way off, and exactly as Norman says, the idea

:24:47. > :24:51.that the Free Syrian Army who have been fighting an absolute battle of

:24:52. > :24:55.survival against the barrel bombs of Bashar al-Assad's forces, that they

:24:56. > :25:00.will somehow say, let's forget all of that and be friends, that is not

:25:01. > :25:05.going to happen. They will not do a deal with him. It has to be the

:25:06. > :25:09.Kurds, but they will only want to go into the areas they operated. In

:25:10. > :25:20.Iraq, and don't forget that so-called Islamic State struggles

:25:21. > :25:23.that border, it will need Sunni soldiers under an Iraqi flag to

:25:24. > :25:31.retake areas like muscle. It is no good sending in the effective but

:25:32. > :25:36.unpopular Shia militias, you cannot send them into Sunni areas, you have

:25:37. > :25:42.a sectarian problem there. So the problem is that helped create IS's

:25:43. > :25:50.military victories last year, they are still there. The Syrian civil

:25:51. > :25:54.war and the difficulties in Iraq. So if we do get this vote, and I think

:25:55. > :25:58.we will, and Britain will join France and the US and other

:25:59. > :26:02.countries in carrying out strikes on Syria, that is not go to be the end

:26:03. > :26:07.of IS, and in fact they won't be any noticeable change at all. It will

:26:08. > :26:13.make it a little more difficult here in Britain, but IS are already our

:26:14. > :26:19.enemy. We were already a target. I want to put you an e-mail saying

:26:20. > :26:23.Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attacks in Paris saying it

:26:24. > :26:26.was retaliation for air strikes. Surely if the UK joins, we will

:26:27. > :26:34.become a target for a Syrian attack, so won't Ming Syria make us less

:26:35. > :26:39.safe? In the short term, I think it will, but you can't hide from this.

:26:40. > :26:43.IS in initially said, our beef is not with you in the West, just let

:26:44. > :26:48.us get on and conquer the territory we want in the Middle East, leave us

:26:49. > :26:51.alone to rampage across the least, and so they rampaged across northern

:26:52. > :26:57.Iraq, they are slaves to people and tortured them, they cut heads off,

:26:58. > :27:00.they advanced towards Kurdistan, so America and others said, we can't

:27:01. > :27:06.let this happen. So they intervened with air strikes to push them back,

:27:07. > :27:11.and IS responded by beheading journalists and Western aid

:27:12. > :27:16.workers, so war was essentially declared. Any vote that is held in

:27:17. > :27:21.Parliament over whether or not Britain should join military action

:27:22. > :27:25.is comparing apples and pears. The last time that vote was held two

:27:26. > :27:30.years ago, September 2013, it was over a completely different

:27:31. > :27:38.question, should we start a war with President Assad's forces to punish

:27:39. > :27:40.them for their mass gas attack? And the intelligence case made to

:27:41. > :27:46.Parliament was so weak that MPs said, you have to be kidding, we are

:27:47. > :27:50.not go to do this. And they lost the vote. This is very different.

:27:51. > :27:54.Britain is already at war with so-called Islamic State, and it has

:27:55. > :28:00.vowed the destruction of Western interests and governments which it

:28:01. > :28:08.sees as Apple states in the region. -- apostates in the region. Even a

:28:09. > :28:12.ground attack alone won't deal with it. The phenomena will still be

:28:13. > :28:17.there. You have to go to the root causes as to why so many people are

:28:18. > :28:20.joining this hideous death cult. Lots of questions being asked by

:28:21. > :28:24.those who will be involved in the debate if and when it happens in

:28:25. > :28:29.Parliament. Are you very much of the view that it is most likely that

:28:30. > :28:37.Britain will be involved in air strikes in Syria before Christmas? I

:28:38. > :28:41.am, yes. I think it is very likely. I think the one thing that is

:28:42. > :28:47.holding back a lot of MPs is the shadow of Iraq. We all know, it was

:28:48. > :28:52.probably one of the most profound moments in most of our lives, but it

:28:53. > :28:56.still hangs heavily on many MPs, and there is still this instinctive fear

:28:57. > :29:03.that we risk repeating what happened in Iraq. And I guess you see that

:29:04. > :29:10.most notably I would suggest in the approach of President Obama at the

:29:11. > :29:15.moment who has been so wary of any American commitment of ground troops

:29:16. > :29:21.or anything like that. And that is absolutely because of Iraq. And that

:29:22. > :29:24.is the case in Westminster, too, particularly on the Labour side. So

:29:25. > :29:30.many Labour MPs were seared by that experience that that probably still

:29:31. > :29:38.does hold them back at the moment. In broad terms, I can't see that Mr

:29:39. > :29:43.Cameron is really in danger of losing this vote, because, as I say,

:29:44. > :29:49.things have changed so fundamentally since the last vote. The only other

:29:50. > :29:52.thing which I do know, talking to Mr Fulham this morning, he was warning

:29:53. > :29:56.that this is going to be a long campaign, so we are not talking

:29:57. > :30:01.about dropping bombs for a few weeks and disappearing. So already the

:30:02. > :30:07.ground is being prepared really quite a lengthy commitment, which

:30:08. > :30:12.again may give people pause for concern. But the Prime Minister's

:30:13. > :30:18.argument has always been that this is a generational struggle. We have

:30:19. > :30:24.to be prepared for a really open track to do and prolonged campaign

:30:25. > :30:25.against IS. There is not going to be a quick solution to this.

:30:26. > :30:31.Norman, that Hugh. It is ten years

:30:32. > :30:35.since changes to alcohol licensing made 24-hour drinking a reality,

:30:36. > :30:38.or at least a possibility. Only a small number

:30:39. > :30:42.of venues have ever applied for full round-the-clock drinking,

:30:43. > :30:45.but the policy has been It never did bring a continental

:30:46. > :30:51.cafe culture to British streets. Many claim it brought extra pressure

:30:52. > :30:54.on the emergency services later Even some

:30:55. > :30:56.of the government ministers involved But a decade on,

:30:57. > :31:00.how much has it shaped our relationship with alcohol?

:31:01. > :31:03.Dan Johnson reports. It is Saturday night

:31:04. > :31:08.and absolutely freezing. It must be the coldest night

:31:09. > :31:11.of the year. I think it is fair to say this city

:31:12. > :31:14.has something of a hard drinking reputation and this is Botchergate

:31:15. > :31:17.right at the heart of it. It is a good way

:31:18. > :31:19.of socialising with your friends. It adds to

:31:20. > :31:22.the craic that you have got. If you didn't have a drink,

:31:23. > :31:25.you wouldn't have the same sort Olly, me and you,

:31:26. > :31:31.we have never met each other sober. When it was 11 o'clock finish,

:31:32. > :31:35.everybody was drinking heavily to get as much as they could

:31:36. > :31:38.into them before they went home. You can drink what you want

:31:39. > :31:44.and go home when you want. We all came out of the club,

:31:45. > :31:47.2 o'clock, it was an absolute Was it safe?

:31:48. > :31:53.I don't know. Now, since we've had 24 hour

:31:54. > :32:00.drinking laws, it's different. People are venturing to taxis,

:32:01. > :32:03.they go home at one, maybe at two, So I seriously think

:32:04. > :32:11.that it's better. Choices are good,

:32:12. > :32:16.however for people that are vulnerable, too much choice and not

:32:17. > :32:19.enough support, they fall through. Sometimes if they are walking

:32:20. > :32:25.around without shoes on, We give them bottles of water

:32:26. > :32:30.if they are dehydrated. We clean people up

:32:31. > :32:32.if they have been sick. Kathy is offering help and support.

:32:33. > :32:36.She is a volunteer street pastor. They have been patrolling

:32:37. > :32:38.Botchergate on Saturday evenings You must see some sights?

:32:39. > :32:43.We do. We just try to do what we can

:32:44. > :32:52.for them. It saddens me that we can't have

:32:53. > :32:55.a civilised attitude towards it. The British attitude historically

:32:56. > :32:58.has probably been drink as much as you can

:32:59. > :33:02.in the shortest possible time. They wanted us to have a European

:33:03. > :33:05.attitude of a long, civilised That is not how we roll in Britain,

:33:06. > :33:10.is it? You don't see that?

:33:11. > :33:14.No, we don't. It has been a good change to

:33:15. > :33:18.the industry and a bad, because it has taken custom from pubs

:33:19. > :33:22.and given it more to supermarkets But apart from that,

:33:23. > :33:30.it doesn't really bother me. As long as people behave themselves

:33:31. > :33:35.and enjoy their night out with no Has it made

:33:36. > :33:41.your job easier or harder? It has made our job harder

:33:42. > :33:44.because our shifts are longer. The hard drinking culture

:33:45. > :33:47.here goes back a long way. In fact, a century ago,

:33:48. > :33:50.to try and control the amount that people here were drinking, the

:33:51. > :33:54.Government took the unprecedented step of taking over every brewery

:33:55. > :33:58.and every pub in the area. The Howard Arms was one of the pubs

:33:59. > :34:02.that came under the ownership of the Carlisle state management scheme,

:34:03. > :34:05.effectively run by the Home Office. We have always had a good reputation

:34:06. > :34:12.for drinking because we are We are hard workers

:34:13. > :34:19.and good drinkers. Lloyd George became Prime Minister

:34:20. > :34:23.and he famously said our enemies are the Germans and alcohol -

:34:24. > :34:26.and alcohol is causing more damage than the Germans, which was in

:34:27. > :34:30.the middle of the First World War. So, there was

:34:31. > :34:33.a definite belief that something had to be done and the Government were

:34:34. > :34:38.the only people to do it. The Government thought if it could

:34:39. > :34:42.control drinking, it could improve productivity at the vast munitions

:34:43. > :34:46.factory on the edge of the city. All

:34:47. > :34:52.the managers became civil servants. So they had no incentive

:34:53. > :35:01.whatsoever to sell anything. They were encouraged to put

:35:02. > :35:06.on food in the belief that if you ate while you were drinking,

:35:07. > :35:10.you didn't get as drunk. And there was strict control

:35:11. > :35:14.of drinking hours. They even banned buying rounds

:35:15. > :35:20.and watered down the beer. Incredibly, state control here

:35:21. > :35:22.lasted through both World Wars What do you think of

:35:23. > :35:26.the state-owned pubs in Carlisle? They are very good

:35:27. > :35:28.but I don't drink there. I just drink at home.

:35:29. > :35:31.The beer is as good as anywhere. I wouldn't buy any other beer

:35:32. > :35:35.but I'd like to if I wanted to. I abhor it because we are being

:35:36. > :35:38.controlled here, in spite of 2000 years of time just as the wall that

:35:39. > :35:41.stretches across there was coming We didn't know any other way

:35:42. > :35:45.of living. We didn't know any other way

:35:46. > :35:48.of drinking. The Government regulated

:35:49. > :35:50.when we drank. And there were a lot

:35:51. > :35:55.of people happy about that. Alan is one of the regulars who has

:35:56. > :35:59.fond memories of state management. They loved the beer.

:36:00. > :36:03.It was absolutely fantastic. Is there a case for it coming back?

:36:04. > :36:07.I wish it would. And he is not the only one

:36:08. > :36:09.calling for tighter regulation. In all seriousness,

:36:10. > :36:14.it is spiralling out of control. People are getting diseases,

:36:15. > :36:22.injuries, What do you think that should be?

:36:23. > :36:30.More control over drinking hours? How can I say it?

:36:31. > :36:35.We were civilised. Civilised.

:36:36. > :36:37.You think it is not now? Back out on Botchergate, a lot has

:36:38. > :36:45.changed since the Government gave up When the laws were relaxed in 2005,

:36:46. > :36:52.there was evidence that problems only got worse,

:36:53. > :36:56.but there are now suggestions our relationship with alcohol has

:36:57. > :37:04.been maturing more recently. Statistics say that fewer people

:37:05. > :37:07.are binge-drinking than before. I don't know

:37:08. > :37:10.if we have particularly seen it in Carlisle although we do see

:37:11. > :37:13.a lot fewer people than we used to. In the five and a bit years

:37:14. > :37:16.that we have been doing this. If you look at Botchergate tonight

:37:17. > :37:20.at this time, you can see across the street - five and a half years ago

:37:21. > :37:23.you couldn't at this time of night. I think people are having

:37:24. > :37:26.a different attitude towards how much they drink, where they drink

:37:27. > :37:28.and when they drink. I was involved in the past in

:37:29. > :37:31.the licensing trade, and I can't say I think in the past it was probably

:37:32. > :37:36.worse because people got more and more drunk knowing they had

:37:37. > :37:38.a time limit. Personally I don't

:37:39. > :37:43.think it is any worse. Too much drink.

:37:44. > :37:46.A couple of pints is fine. They don't know what

:37:47. > :37:54.planet they are on. They are only having fun,

:37:55. > :38:02.aren't they? Well, it is fun now,

:38:03. > :38:05.but later on there will be We want to know what you think

:38:06. > :38:09.about 24 hour drinking, when the Government brought that in.

:38:10. > :38:11.Was it a good idea? Love it.

:38:12. > :38:12.Terrible, absolutely terrible. It's not!

:38:13. > :38:14.It is. Who

:38:15. > :38:18.on earth can drink 24 hours a day? A northern white rhino thought to

:38:19. > :38:20.be one of just four left on Earth has

:38:21. > :38:24.died at a zoo in California. Nola, who was 41, had to be put down at

:38:25. > :38:28.the San Diego Zoo Safari Park after developing a bacterial infection.

:38:29. > :38:30.She was described as as an "iconic animal", whose gentle disposition

:38:31. > :38:33.and love of having her back scratched, had endeared her to

:38:34. > :38:42.staff. There are now only three left in the

:38:43. > :38:46.world. Lots of you have been getting in touch with us about this. This

:38:47. > :38:51.one says, this is just devastating. Man should hang its head in shame

:38:52. > :38:54.that this has been allowed to happen.

:38:55. > :38:57.Let's talk now to Richard Vigne, chief executive officer at the Ol

:38:58. > :39:01.Pejeta Conservancy, a wildlife reserve in northern Kenya.

:39:02. > :39:10.This is where the remaining three northern white rhinos are. You met

:39:11. > :39:13.her, didn't you? I did, I happened to be in San Diego last week and she

:39:14. > :39:18.looked reasonably healthy then but obviously things have taken a turn

:39:19. > :39:21.for the worse. How much of a blow is it to the future of northern white

:39:22. > :39:30.rhinos, that one of only four has now died? This species has been on

:39:31. > :39:34.the brink of extinction for an awfully long period of time. If you

:39:35. > :39:38.get to a situation where there is only four animals left, chances of

:39:39. > :39:42.recovering that species are pretty small. It is as a result of demand

:39:43. > :39:46.for their horn and poaching of the species. It is something which

:39:47. > :39:51.affects all rhinos across the planet. The loss of Nola is not

:39:52. > :39:54.great and we are down to three, but to be frank it does not really

:39:55. > :40:00.change dramatically the chances of recovering the species. Is there any

:40:01. > :40:04.hope? You have got the three where you are - is there anything that can

:40:05. > :40:12.be done in terms of breeding? The answer is yes,. But the only way to

:40:13. > :40:15.do it now probably is through scientifically assisted reproductive

:40:16. > :40:19.methods. I will not go into the details of that but we are essential

:40:20. > :40:24.talking in vitro fertilisation, exactly as happens in humans and

:40:25. > :40:29.cattle and horses. The problem is, it has never been done in rhinos.

:40:30. > :40:35.The protocols would have to be developed first. That comes at a

:40:36. > :40:40.huge cost. And it will not work unless we can keep the remaining two

:40:41. > :40:45.females alive because they are the single remaining repository of

:40:46. > :40:50.northern white rhino eggs left in the world. If they die, those eggs

:40:51. > :40:54.will be lost and then we are going to be looking at... Potentially

:40:55. > :41:01.there are other methods of doing it but those animals - huge amounts of

:41:02. > :41:05.expense and science which is right at the cutting edge and is yet to be

:41:06. > :41:11.fully developed. Just explain what those methods potentially could be?

:41:12. > :41:15.In San Diego they have stored cell lines of northern white rhinos, I

:41:16. > :41:20.think about 12-14 different individuals that they have in frozen

:41:21. > :41:24.storage in a place they call their frozen zoo. What they would do is

:41:25. > :41:30.create themselves from those cell lines which then, theoretically, you

:41:31. > :41:36.can take stem cells and sperm cells and combine to create embryos for

:41:37. > :41:41.implantation into surrogate southern white females. So, it is a real long

:41:42. > :41:46.shot because the creation of those stem cells and the subsequent

:41:47. > :41:51.creation of sperm cells and excels I don't think has ever been done. I am

:41:52. > :41:54.not a scientist. But certainly it is science which is a long way from

:41:55. > :42:00.happening and as I said would cost a huge amount of money to make

:42:01. > :42:03.happen. I think there are southern white rhinos left. What is the

:42:04. > :42:10.difference between the northern and southern? To look at them you would

:42:11. > :42:12.not see much difference. There are a few morphological difference. They

:42:13. > :42:16.tend to be slightly more hairy on the fringe of the ear. More

:42:17. > :42:19.importantly they are adapted to living in different habitats. The

:42:20. > :42:24.northern white rhino traditionally existed across north and central

:42:25. > :42:30.Africa. Those areas offer different environmental challenges to rhinos.

:42:31. > :42:33.So, the loss of the genetics which made up the northern white rhino

:42:34. > :42:38.would preclude us from ever introducing rhinos back into those

:42:39. > :42:45.areas in the future. Really that is the importance of it. Thank you very

:42:46. > :42:48.much for talking to us. And we can bring you some of your comments on

:42:49. > :42:53.those three amazing women who Victoria spoke to earlier about

:42:54. > :43:04.their multiple cancer diagnoses. This one says, I had cancer three

:43:05. > :43:14.times... And this one says, five years ago I was treated for breast

:43:15. > :43:19.cancer. I am getting near to the end of my five years on tamoxifen. Then

:43:20. > :43:23.I was diagnosed with lymphoma. Chemotherapy was hard but I have

:43:24. > :43:27.been in remission for three years and I feel fine. There is lots of

:43:28. > :43:32.hope out there for many people who a few years ago would not have been

:43:33. > :43:38.treated. This one says, I am 32 and fighting bowel cancer for the second

:43:39. > :43:42.time. My family has supported me endlessly. I am very positive and

:43:43. > :43:48.will beat this and I encourage everybody to be positive. Another

:43:49. > :43:54.tweet - watching three incredibly brave women - inspiring. Thank you

:43:55. > :43:59.for your company today. Victoria is back tomorrow. I will see you soon.