14/12/2015

:00:07. > :00:09.Hello, it's Monday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria,

:00:10. > :00:15.This morning: in an exclusive in-depth interview the last British

:00:16. > :00:17.resident to be released from Guantanamo Bay describes

:00:18. > :00:20.torture at the US detention facility as "a way of life".

:00:21. > :00:25.Shaker Aamer also tells this programme how he felt being reunited

:00:26. > :00:28.with his wife and family in the UK after 14 years being held

:00:29. > :00:34.I did not neglect, I didn't just let her go.

:00:35. > :00:50.The 48 year old also tells this programme some of his abuse

:00:51. > :00:52.at the hands of American guards was witnessed by British

:00:53. > :00:54.intelligence officers who did nothing to stop it.

:00:55. > :00:58.He was accused by the Americans of being an al-Qaeda terrorist.

:00:59. > :01:04.You were an Al-Qaeda operative they said.

:01:05. > :01:06.Not at all. Prove it.

:01:07. > :01:09.Prove anything that you say is true, prove it.

:01:10. > :01:14.Throughout the programme this morning we'll bring

:01:15. > :01:19.And you can watch the full version on our programme page.

:01:20. > :01:27.Also ahead: A dramatic rise in the number of newborn babies

:01:28. > :01:43.I had everything ready, his cock, his pushchair, his Moses basket,

:01:44. > :01:49.even his bedroom sorted. Then I had to leave hospital with no baby, just

:01:50. > :01:58.Then I had to leave hospital with no baby, just his stuff.

:01:59. > :02:01.Hello, welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC

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:02:17. > :02:21.by going to add topics and searching Victoria Derbyshire.

:02:22. > :02:24.This morning in an exclusive, in-depth interview the last British

:02:25. > :02:26.resident to be held at Guantanamo Bay tells this

:02:27. > :02:30.programme that torture at the US detention facility was a way of life

:02:31. > :02:33.and that some of his abuse at the hands of American guards

:02:34. > :02:37.was witnessed by British intelligence officers who did

:02:38. > :02:44.Shaker Aamer was accused of being an Al Qaeda operative

:02:45. > :02:47.and a close associate of Osama bin Laden.

:02:48. > :02:50.He tells us that all the claims against him are "lies".

:02:51. > :02:53.The 48-year-old was held for nearly 14 years without charge or trial

:02:54. > :02:55.initially at Bagram, a US air base near the Afghanistan

:02:56. > :02:59.capital, he was later transferred to Guantanamo Bay

:03:00. > :03:05.Speaking to Victoria just weeks after he was released from American

:03:06. > :03:08.custody on 30th October he tells us how it felt to be reunited

:03:09. > :03:20.with his family, including a son he had never met before.

:03:21. > :03:23.How a US guard threatened to rape his then five-year-old daughter.

:03:24. > :03:25.How British intelligence officers witnessed his head being slammed

:03:26. > :03:28.repeatedly against a wall whilst he was being held at Kandahar

:03:29. > :03:32.airbase in Aghanistan in a technique called "walling".

:03:33. > :03:35.How he made friends with ants in Gunatanamo Bay to get

:03:36. > :03:38.through his periods in solitary confinement.

:03:39. > :03:42.How he has no idea how he survived but always knew he would be released

:03:43. > :03:45.one day and that he would be prepared to return to Guantanamo Bay

:03:46. > :03:48.if it helped to close the detention facility.

:03:49. > :03:51.We'll play you the first part of our exclusive interview in just

:03:52. > :03:57.a moment, but first our reporter Jim Reed has his story.

:03:58. > :04:01.He was the last British resident left in Guantanamo Bay and one

:04:02. > :04:04.of the most controversial inmates, with so many questions

:04:05. > :04:11.about his case still unanswered 14 years after he was first detained.

:04:12. > :04:20.He was born in Medina in Saudi Arabia in 1966.

:04:21. > :04:23.In his 20s he moved to the United States,

:04:24. > :04:29.even working as a translator for US personnel in the first Gulf War.

:04:30. > :04:33.He came to the UK in 1991, met his British wife,

:04:34. > :04:40.The youngest he has only just met for the first time.

:04:41. > :04:52.In 2001, he took his family to Afghanistan, he claims

:04:53. > :04:56.The US claims he was an Al-Qaeda operative and a close associate

:04:57. > :05:01.In late 2001, he was picked up by bounty hunters looking

:05:02. > :05:03.for foreign fighters and sold to the US.

:05:04. > :05:08.He was taken to Bagram airbase near the Afghan capital Kabul.

:05:09. > :05:12.It was there his story gets even more murky.

:05:13. > :05:14.Shaker Aamer alleges he was tortured, beaten and strung

:05:15. > :05:18.up while being interrogated at Bagram and he says that treatment

:05:19. > :05:23.was witnessed by British intelligence officers.

:05:24. > :05:28.At one point he claims he was held at Bagram with another man

:05:29. > :05:34.No photos exist of the Libyan who is now dead, but it was

:05:35. > :05:37.he who was alleged to have told US investigators that Saddam Hussain

:05:38. > :05:43.That information, which turned out to be false, was used to help

:05:44. > :05:53.between Iraq and Saddam and Al-Qaeda is because there was a relationship

:05:54. > :06:01.At one point in his detention Shaker Aamer claims he made a false

:06:02. > :06:05.confession to end what he says was torture, so on Valentine's day

:06:06. > :06:11.in 2002, the US military flew him to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

:06:12. > :06:14.Through his time there he says he was beaten, subjected to sleep

:06:15. > :06:19.deprivation and held in solitary confinement for long periods.

:06:20. > :06:27.Two years ago, a US news programme was broadcast from inside the camp

:06:28. > :06:36.when he began shouting from his cell.

:06:37. > :06:42.You cannot walk, not even have a meter without being chained.

:06:43. > :06:52.In 2007, he was cleared for release by George W Bush.

:06:53. > :06:56.Despite a formal request by then Foreign Secretary David Miliband

:06:57. > :06:59.American authorities refused to let him go.

:07:00. > :07:03.The same thing happened again in 2009.

:07:04. > :07:09.He was never charged or put on trial.

:07:10. > :07:12.But campaigners worked hard for his release.

:07:13. > :07:16.British politicians spoke up on his behalf and he was flown

:07:17. > :07:20.Guantanamo on this jet and six weeks ago landed back on British soil

:07:21. > :07:26.where he is now being treated as a free man.

:07:27. > :07:28.Throughout the programme we'll play you different parts of Victoria's

:07:29. > :07:30.exclusive interview with Shaker Aamer.

:07:31. > :07:34.There is some graphic description as he talks about his alleged abuse.

:07:35. > :07:36.You can watch the full interview on our programme page,

:07:37. > :07:43.We'll start with Shaker Aamer describing how it felt to arrive

:07:44. > :07:47.back on UK soil for the first time in nearly 14 years.

:07:48. > :07:50.At the very beginning of the interview Mr Aamer recites

:07:51. > :08:10.an Islamic prayer which asks Allah to guide him through the interview.

:08:11. > :08:26.Knowing that I am coming back to my family, it was hard to believe

:08:27. > :08:31.sitting in that aeroplane thinking that definitely I am going back,

:08:32. > :08:37.thinking how I am going to face it, how I am going to be with the kids.

:08:38. > :08:41.And seeing your wife and your children, including your youngest

:08:42. > :08:46.who was born on the day you were transferred to Guantanamo Bay, give

:08:47. > :08:53.us an insight into that moment. I know I was going to fall down and

:08:54. > :09:01.start crying. My wife was going to guide me through it. It I wanted to

:09:02. > :09:08.see her by herself, knowing that she would be comfortable with me. I did

:09:09. > :09:15.not neglect, I wanted to show her, I did not let her go. What were your

:09:16. > :09:22.first words to her? I am back. What were her first words to you? She was

:09:23. > :09:30.just crying. She was crying and then I started crying. And then your

:09:31. > :09:35.children, tell us about that. It was hard, it was really hard. I needed

:09:36. > :09:40.to know who they were, how they think, how they do things, what they

:09:41. > :09:45.feel about me. What was her advice to you before you met your children

:09:46. > :09:48.and saw your youngest son for the first time? The first thing she said

:09:49. > :09:54.is they love you so much, they have been fighting for your release so

:09:55. > :10:05.much. She just told me and I tried to relax. She said just be you. I

:10:06. > :10:08.assure you they will love you. But I am still scared. I am a father who

:10:09. > :10:15.did not practice his fatherhood for 14 years. I left them when they were

:10:16. > :10:20.little, tiny kids, cuddling them all the time. Even though it was a happy

:10:21. > :10:26.moment, it was sad. It was happy that I was seeing my kids again, but

:10:27. > :10:31.it was so sad that the feeling is not that they are my kids. They look

:10:32. > :10:38.at me and they are trying to know who is this person? I feel like they

:10:39. > :10:46.are just looking at the stranger. Did they run to you? No, not at all.

:10:47. > :10:54.Even though it is sad to say that. They are teenagers, they just stood

:10:55. > :11:00.there. I was running to them. You ran to them? Yes, I rented them.

:11:01. > :11:06.Everybody cried. They were just standing there. But thank God now,

:11:07. > :11:10.things have changed. Things have changed a little bit and they have

:11:11. > :11:14.started to realise that their dad loves them so much and he is trying

:11:15. > :11:20.to do everything to comfort them, to be there for them and they are

:11:21. > :11:25.coming along Little by little. How did you introduce yourself to the

:11:26. > :11:32.Sun you have never seen, your youngest? I have been asking myself

:11:33. > :11:41.when I was in Guantanamo Bay every day, how I am going to make him

:11:42. > :11:47.understand that I love him as much as I love the others and it was not

:11:48. > :11:52.my fault. The first time I started talking to them I told them I want

:11:53. > :11:58.you to understand I did not leave you. We were forcibly separated. I

:11:59. > :12:03.do not want you to blame me or your mother for what happened. We were

:12:04. > :12:09.victims of circumstances. I still hope they understand that. What is

:12:10. > :12:20.it you are enjoying most about freedom? Freedom itself. Just to

:12:21. > :12:24.wake up and know that nobody is going to tell you what to do and how

:12:25. > :12:29.to do it and to wake up knowing that you are not going to be shackled for

:12:30. > :12:37.every step you take out of that cell. I lost my freedom for 14

:12:38. > :12:41.years. I want to go back to 2001, if that is OK. You decided to move to

:12:42. > :12:45.Afghanistan with your British wife who was pregnant and your three

:12:46. > :12:54.young children. You move to Kabul. Why? I lived in this place for five

:12:55. > :13:00.years before I went to Afghanistan. Four out of the five years I was

:13:01. > :13:08.homeless. At the same time the way my wife appeared wearing the hijab,

:13:09. > :13:14.the way I was, wearing an Islamic dress and walking around, you can

:13:15. > :13:21.see these guys are practising Muslims. It was hard, it was not

:13:22. > :13:25.easy, it was hard, because people talked and said rubbish things about

:13:26. > :13:31.you and your wife. Eyes were chasing you everywhere you went. Why did you

:13:32. > :13:41.move to Kabul? I wanted to be able to feel free. Under the Taliban?

:13:42. > :13:44.Under the Taliban at that time it was not that horrible. We were led

:13:45. > :13:50.to believe that you move to Afghanistan to work for a charity,

:13:51. > :13:54.is that not accurate? It is not an official charity that was

:13:55. > :14:01.documented. It was our own way of helping that society. Ben 9/11

:14:02. > :14:05.happened. Sometime before Christmas you were captured by the Northern

:14:06. > :14:10.Alliance, a group of fighters who were anti-Taliban and you say they

:14:11. > :14:15.tortured you. Can you tell us about the kind of torture you received at

:14:16. > :14:19.their hands? I was not captured really. I was on the battlefield

:14:20. > :14:25.fighting and somehow they captured me there. But that is not the

:14:26. > :14:30.reality about most of the people in Guantanamo. This is important for

:14:31. > :14:34.you to understand. There was no capturing, there was no fighting

:14:35. > :14:40.with a lot of people. It was a business. We got sold many times.

:14:41. > :14:46.And in the hands of the Northern Alliance what did they do to you?

:14:47. > :14:50.For the whole two weeks all they did was take you outside and beat you

:14:51. > :14:54.with cables and sticks and accuse you of killing their leaders. They

:14:55. > :14:59.did not even ask questions, they did not want to know anything, it was

:15:00. > :15:04.total revenge. You killed our leader and we are going to kill you all. I

:15:05. > :15:09.did not understand, what should I say to them to let them understand?

:15:10. > :15:14.I have only been here two months. But in the end I found out they

:15:15. > :15:22.wanted me to say one thing and they would let me go. What was it? That I

:15:23. > :15:30.worked with Osama Bin Laden and I was with Al-Qaeda. And you said it?

:15:31. > :15:33.I said it, definitely. Why did you say it? Because of the torture. Was

:15:34. > :15:46.it true? Definitely not true. I think initially, you expected the

:15:47. > :15:50.Americans to treat you well. Yes. As soon as you arrived, you say, abuse

:15:51. > :15:55.by US soldiers began, for example you were taken to a concrete room

:15:56. > :16:03.and ordered to remove your clothes. Yes. They ordered me to strip naked

:16:04. > :16:07.in front of a lot of men and women, and soldiers, and, it was shocking

:16:08. > :16:11.for me, it was shocking. But actually they were doing it for if

:16:12. > :16:17.sake of the humiliation, for the sake of breaking me. Alongside hue

:16:18. > :16:21.mission Asian you say there was beating and something called

:16:22. > :16:27.walling. Tell us about that. That is when somebody grabbed me head and

:16:28. > :16:31.smacked it to the wall behind, back-and-forth. And all what I am

:16:32. > :16:38.trying to do is resist, hitting back, but I was in shackle, my head

:16:39. > :16:42.was smacking the wall, back-and-forth, and then, suddenly

:16:43. > :16:47.my head is just down. Ist just my eyes are closed and you know,

:16:48. > :16:53.thinking what is going on? Because you know, all that, my vision I am

:16:54. > :16:57.sure is, I can't even see what is going on, because everything in my

:16:58. > :17:02.mind is running round and as soon as I opened my eyes there is nobody in

:17:03. > :17:08.the room. Everybody is out. But the moment of impact. Just pain, pain

:17:09. > :17:13.after pain, I just, you know. All I am trying to do is protect my head

:17:14. > :17:21.and trying to pull back. It is all back again. It is not like you can

:17:22. > :17:25.even think about it. You know, all what you, I think all what you can

:17:26. > :17:29.think about is how to save your head from blowing up and they sat me

:17:30. > :17:36.down, the wall behind me, and they start talking to me, all of them at

:17:37. > :17:40.the same time. One guy with a Finnish accent. One is an English

:17:41. > :17:47.accent, another with a Russian accent and two guy, the one who have

:17:48. > :17:52.MIR case, the American, he called himself Tony and the other one is

:17:53. > :17:56.John. And some other people sitting and they just, asking questions,

:17:57. > :18:00.they don't even want to wait for the answer. They don't want to know the

:18:01. > :18:01.answer. I was like why are they asking if they don't want to hear

:18:02. > :18:04.the answer. Later in the programme we'll bring

:18:05. > :18:06.you more of that interview including Shaker Aamer's claims that British

:18:07. > :18:08.intelligence officers witnessed alleged abuse at Bagram

:18:09. > :18:11.and his comparison of his time in Guantanamo Bay with Harry

:18:12. > :18:13.Potter's the Prisoner of Azkaban. You can watch the full interview

:18:14. > :18:15.on our programme page On the specific claim that a British

:18:16. > :18:22.intelligence officer witnessed his alleged abuse,

:18:23. > :18:27.both Mi5 Mi6 have a policy The US Dept of Defense say

:18:28. > :19:45.they do not tolerate the abuse Getting in touch from that tweet.

:19:46. > :19:49.Jailed without charge or trial is unacceptable on any occasion. Gerry

:19:50. > :19:53.on Facebook poor guy has been to hell and back and for UK military

:19:54. > :19:58.personnel not to help is beyond contempt and Daniel on Facebook asks

:19:59. > :20:03.what humanitarian work, who did he register with, where is his proof?

:20:04. > :20:07.More on Shaker Aamer later. Thank you for joining us. Still to come.

:20:08. > :20:10.There's been a big rise in the number of newborn babies

:20:11. > :20:12.being taken into care in England - we'll have all the details.

:20:13. > :20:15.We'll be live at Westminster for the latest on whether David Cameron

:20:16. > :20:27.stands any chance curbing in-work benefits for EU migrants in the UK.

:20:28. > :20:31.The last British resident held at Guantanamo Bay,

:20:32. > :20:34.Shaker Aamer, has told this programme he doesn't intend to take

:20:35. > :20:36.legal action against the government over his imprisonment

:20:37. > :20:39.Mr Aamer also says British intelligence officials witnessed

:20:40. > :20:42.some of the abuse he claims was inflicted on him by American

:20:43. > :20:56.interrogators at a prison in Afghanistan in 2002.

:20:57. > :21:03.I have no doubt that I did not do anything wrong to deserve what

:21:04. > :21:10.happened. I know, justice will prevail. Years after years after

:21:11. > :21:13.years, justice will prevail. It took 27 years with Nelson Mandela to get

:21:14. > :21:17.out and to be the President of his country. It took me only 14 years to

:21:18. > :21:19.prove to the world I am the good person and they are the bad.

:21:20. > :21:23.Children's services departments in England, which are judged to be

:21:24. > :21:25.failing vulnerable youngsters, face being taken over

:21:26. > :21:26.by high-performing councils and charities.

:21:27. > :21:28.Experts will be sent in immediately to run child protection services

:21:29. > :21:31.at Sunderland City Council, and departments at other councils,

:21:32. > :21:44.judged inadequate by Ofsted will be taken over unless they improve.

:21:45. > :21:46.One of China's most high-profile human rights lawyers has gone

:21:47. > :21:50.Pu Zhiqiang is facing a lengthy prison sentence for a series

:21:51. > :21:52.of irreverent tweets he posted on social media,

:21:53. > :21:59.questioning the legitimacy of Communist Party rule.

:22:00. > :22:01.There's been a dramatic rise in the number of newborn babies,

:22:02. > :22:04.Researchers from Lancaster University found that about 10%

:22:05. > :22:07.of the babies that are removed at birth will be returned

:22:08. > :22:09.to their mothers at the end of care proceedings.

:22:10. > :22:12.Some may be looked after by other family members, while others may go

:22:13. > :22:19.into foster care or be placed for adoption.

:22:20. > :22:22.The British astronaut Tim Peake is making final preparations ahead

:22:23. > :22:24.of his launch to the International Space Station.

:22:25. > :22:26.He's due to blast into space tomorrow morning from Kazakhstan

:22:27. > :22:29.for a six-month mission, which will see him and his team

:22:30. > :22:36.carry out a variety of experiments and tests for researchers.

:22:37. > :22:39.Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Ore and all eyes

:22:40. > :22:45.on the Champions League draw later this morning.

:22:46. > :22:50.Morning you are right. Everybody loves a football draw, especially

:22:51. > :22:55.after Saturday, when England was drawn to play against Wales at Euro

:22:56. > :22:59.2016 next year around as you say, today is the turn of the Champions

:23:00. > :23:04.League, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester City all representing. It

:23:05. > :23:14.is simple. Two pots, eight teams in each. Group winners will play

:23:15. > :23:21.against runners-up, but it gets less complicated. We will be talking

:23:22. > :23:25.about Test cricket as well, because England start their tour of South

:23:26. > :23:30.Africa later on in about 24 hours' time. Steven Finn has been added to

:23:31. > :23:36.the side after he recovered from a stress fracture in his foot. There

:23:37. > :23:40.is a lot of love for Chris and Gabby Adcock who become the first British

:23:41. > :23:42.pair to win a World Series title as they did it as husband and wife.

:23:43. > :23:47.There's been a huge rise in the number of newborn babies

:23:48. > :23:51.In seven years more than 13,000 babies in England were in effect

:23:52. > :23:54.born into the care system, meaning they were removed

:23:55. > :23:56.from their mothers after they'd been born or shortly after.

:23:57. > :23:58.More than 2,000 newborn babies were taken straight into care

:23:59. > :24:01.One in three were removed from teenage mothers.

:24:02. > :24:04.And almost half of mothers already had other children in care.

:24:05. > :24:06.One mother, Louise - not her real name -

:24:07. > :24:09.neglected her first child and had her second baby taken away

:24:10. > :24:31.I had everything, I had his cot, push chair, hiss Moses basket. I

:24:32. > :24:37.even had his bedroom sorted for him. And then, I had to leave hospital

:24:38. > :24:42.with no baby, just a balloon and my stuff. It tore me apart, crying and

:24:43. > :24:45.crying and crying. Even now, I still cry and it has been nearly two years

:24:46. > :24:48.The Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, who is also

:24:49. > :24:50.Women's Minister, told the BBC that the Government wants to get

:24:51. > :24:52.tougher on social services that fail vulnerable young people

:24:53. > :25:04.But we know sometimes there can be a sort of a cycle of continued

:25:05. > :25:09.failure, somebody who was perhaps abused or didn't have the good

:25:10. > :25:12.parents role model, then they have their own children, they can't do

:25:13. > :25:17.that, they have their children taken away, that is why today we are

:25:18. > :25:21.announcing that those children Social Services departments that are

:25:22. > :25:25.failing, will be taken over, social workers do a difficult job and

:25:26. > :25:28.making decisions about for example taking away very young children and

:25:29. > :25:32.putting them into the care system. But we know there are failings, we

:25:33. > :25:36.know there can be failings of leadership and management, and we

:25:37. > :25:39.know that by bringing outside people in, very experienced, they can raise

:25:40. > :25:44.standards which is the right thing to do for vulnerable children across

:25:45. > :25:47.Joining us from Carlisle is Claire Mason, senior research

:25:48. > :25:49.associate at Lancaster University and co-author of the report.

:25:50. > :25:53.In the studio is Nick Crichton, a family judge who sits on the board

:25:54. > :25:55.of the charity Pause, which works with women whose

:25:56. > :25:59.And Cathy Ashley, chief executive of the Family Rights Group,

:26:00. > :26:00.which supports the families of children in care.

:26:01. > :26:04.Thank you both for coming. You have a huge amount of experience dealing

:26:05. > :26:08.with families like this. Cathy first of all. Tell us what it is is like

:26:09. > :26:16.when you see these women, having baby, that are taken away because

:26:17. > :26:22.they just can't keep them. It is incredibly harrowing hearing their

:26:23. > :26:27.stories about just the process of actually their babies being removed

:26:28. > :26:32.from them. Often these mothers are expected to go to court one days,

:26:33. > :26:39.weeks of actually giving birth, and you can imagine the mental state,

:26:40. > :26:44.and one of our frustrations is that actually, far too little is being

:26:45. > :26:49.done in terms of working with these mothers, in the early stages of

:26:50. > :26:55.pregnancy, but also, after their children are removed, they are just

:26:56. > :27:00.often left adrift, and it is not surprising they then get pregnant

:27:01. > :27:06.again, and in fact, the more children are removed, the shorter

:27:07. > :27:12.the space between them getting pregnant another time, so we are

:27:13. > :27:17.really neglecting children and these often young women by not working

:27:18. > :27:21.with them, both in pregnancy and post removal. You see it from the

:27:22. > :27:27.perspective of sitting in the courts Nick, what is your view when you see

:27:28. > :27:31.these women? I completely endorse what Cathy has said. It is important

:27:32. > :27:39.to remember that the courts function is to consider what is in the best

:27:40. > :27:44.interest of each child. And if, as we frequently have, you have a woman

:27:45. > :27:50.who has serious issues, with the misuse of drugs and alcohol, with

:27:51. > :27:55.mental health issue, living in a domestic violence situation, is that

:27:56. > :28:02.child going to be safe? Frequently, these are mothers who have already

:28:03. > :28:07.had one or two, in one case I had to remove the 14th child from the same

:28:08. > :28:13.mother, because she had been completely unable to connect with

:28:14. > :28:18.services which were designed to help her, but once the child has been

:28:19. > :28:24.removed, there are no services or very few services put in place to

:28:25. > :28:29.help her to understand what has brought about the removal of that

:28:30. > :28:35.child, and help her to get into a better place. The family drug and

:28:36. > :28:39.alcohol court, which has been running for eight year, which an

:28:40. > :28:45.initiative which I was initially able to start, and we are working

:28:46. > :28:51.intensively with parents in these situations, trying to help them to

:28:52. > :28:56.get into a position to provide good enough care for this child, because

:28:57. > :29:02.if we can enable a mother to hold on to this child, the risk that she

:29:03. > :29:06.will go on having another child every year indefinitely is

:29:07. > :29:10.significant reduced. Let us bring in Claire Mason, one of the report's

:29:11. > :29:14.author, your task in compiling the report was to talk to the mothers

:29:15. > :29:19.whose experiences were being drawn upon for the report. That is right.

:29:20. > :29:24.We were hearing there about how often these women are having babies

:29:25. > :29:29.again and again to replace the baby that they lost. Just tell us what

:29:30. > :29:35.these women are like, have been like you have have been talking to? There

:29:36. > :29:40.have been common factors for all of them. Yes I had spoken to 72 women

:29:41. > :29:43.who had been through the sickle you have been describing. It is

:29:44. > :29:45.important to remember they are not all the same. They have a unique

:29:46. > :29:50.story, but certainly we all the same. They have a unique

:29:51. > :29:54.able to see some themes emerging from the data, and from those really

:29:55. > :29:59.important interviews, think as Cathy has outlined, these are vulnerable

:30:00. > :30:03.women, they have had, faced a number of adversities in their own

:30:04. > :30:11.childhood and have problems in their adulthood. Domestic abuse was a

:30:12. > :30:15.common feature as was childhood trauma, sexual abuse, maltreatment,

:30:16. > :30:19.neglect I think at the moment little is being done to support these

:30:20. > :30:23.women, particularly after they have had a child removed. And we are not

:30:24. > :30:30.looking at how we can better help them with those traumatic

:30:31. > :30:33.experience, rather, we are layering another traumatic experience by

:30:34. > :30:36.removing their child and leaving them alone to cope to pick up the

:30:37. > :30:41.pieces. You are all saying the same thing, which is that these

:30:42. > :30:44.pieces. You are all saying the same not getting support, I have, I have

:30:45. > :30:49.read that you have been described previously, Nick as seeing this was

:30:50. > :31:01.a mix of empathy which you have got, but exasperation.

:31:02. > :31:07.Absolutely, we cannot just go on processing people. If we are going

:31:08. > :31:12.to remove a child without doing anything about the core problems, we

:31:13. > :31:19.are condoning more and more children being taken into the care system.

:31:20. > :31:23.Very small children who are adopted can do very well, but the slightly

:31:24. > :31:29.older children do not do well in care. We have to address these

:31:30. > :31:34.problems. The family drug and alcohol cord is doing significantly

:31:35. > :31:40.better in ordinary care proceedings in helping these women. You are

:31:41. > :31:48.saying the help is not always there? Yes. The London Borough of Hackney

:31:49. > :31:57.have identified that of 320 children they have in care, 205, from 49

:31:58. > :32:05.women. Across the country local authorities are beginning to come up

:32:06. > :32:12.with very similar figures. The Pause project is still quite young, so we

:32:13. > :32:18.await the evaluation of that. It is similar in terms of giving extra

:32:19. > :32:23.help? It is the same cohort of women with the same difficulties that

:32:24. > :32:29.Claire is talking about. We do not need small projects trying to deal

:32:30. > :32:33.with these problems. We need to have local and national government

:32:34. > :32:37.beginning to address these issues and provide the support because the

:32:38. > :32:43.emotional cost to these children and their parents is immense, but the

:32:44. > :32:49.financial cost to the taxpayer is immense. We need to understand that

:32:50. > :32:53.and start working in a coordinated way to help this significantly small

:32:54. > :32:59.number of people who are providing a disproportionately large number of

:33:00. > :33:02.children for the care system. One of the interesting findings from

:33:03. > :33:09.Claire's interviews was the large number of care leavers amongst the

:33:10. > :33:15.population of mothers who are having children repeatedly removed. The

:33:16. > :33:22.report that has just come out says there is a significant number

:33:23. > :33:27.teenage mothers. These are hardly children themselves. One of our real

:33:28. > :33:32.concerns is that actually support is going in the opposite direction for

:33:33. > :33:38.many young women in this situation. The welfare reforms are being

:33:39. > :33:42.discussed today by the House of Lords and they will reduce benefits

:33:43. > :33:48.for young parents. The pressures on them are getting harsher rather than

:33:49. > :33:55.us looking at these very bold rubble young people, many of whom is a

:33:56. > :34:01.society we have had responsibility for them in childhood. --

:34:02. > :34:05.Coming up: Getting ready for blast off.

:34:06. > :34:08.We'll have the latest on the final preparations by British astronaut

:34:09. > :34:13.Tim Peake ahead of his launch to the International Space Station.

:34:14. > :34:17.It's a big week for David Cameron and his plans to reform Britain's

:34:18. > :34:18.relationship with the European Union.

:34:19. > :34:21.He's heading to Brussels later this week for his first face-to-face

:34:22. > :34:27.But he's having a rough ride in the press which is casting doubt

:34:28. > :34:30.on his plan to curb benefits for people coming to Britain

:34:31. > :34:33.Joining us from Westminster is our political correspondent

:34:34. > :34:38.Chris, lots of bad headlines for the prime

:34:39. > :34:40.minister with the papers saying he's backtracked on this

:34:41. > :35:02.There is talk of a climb-down and capitulation. The Sun newspaper says

:35:03. > :35:05.he is pathetic and gutless. But when you speak to Downing Street they say

:35:06. > :35:10.nothing has changed and they pointed to a letter that was sent by the

:35:11. > :35:16.Prime Minister to Donald Paskin, the president of the European Council

:35:17. > :35:22.last month, where he set out what he wanted to achieve. On this crucial

:35:23. > :35:28.issue of suspending benefits for four years, in work benefits like

:35:29. > :35:33.tax credits for migrants, they say that this is something he wants to

:35:34. > :35:37.achieve, but he is in listening mode to see what other European leaders

:35:38. > :35:42.are willing to suggest. This is what the Prime Minister said about four

:35:43. > :35:47.weeks ago. We propose that people coming to Britain from the EU must

:35:48. > :35:51.live here and contribute for four years before they qualify for in

:35:52. > :35:57.work benefits or social housing. We should end the practice of sending

:35:58. > :36:00.child benefit overseas. I understand how difficult some of these welfare

:36:01. > :36:06.issues are four other member states and I am open to different ways of

:36:07. > :36:10.dealing with this issue, but we do need to secure arrangements that

:36:11. > :36:14.deliver on the objectives set out in the Conservative Party manifesto to

:36:15. > :36:18.control migration from the European Union. Downing Street say this

:36:19. > :36:23.proposal is still very much on the table and will be on the table in

:36:24. > :36:31.Brussels at this summit on Thursday were all 28 leaders will be around

:36:32. > :36:37.the same table, talking about EU and the British for the first time, all

:36:38. > :36:40.in one room. David Cameron has had lots of one-to-one talks with

:36:41. > :36:45.leaders, but on Thursday they will all be there at the same time. There

:36:46. > :36:50.will not be a resolution then, that will roll on into the New Year, but

:36:51. > :36:57.Downing Street say they hope to make progress. But is there a wisp of

:36:58. > :37:01.compromise in the? Philip Hammond has just been giving an interview

:37:02. > :37:08.and we hope to give you that later on BBC News. He is in Brussels. The

:37:09. > :37:15.hint, the subtext of the interview is again one of compromise. He says

:37:16. > :37:20.that four year wait for in work benefits is the only proposal on the

:37:21. > :37:24.table when it comes to changing access to benefits, but they are

:37:25. > :37:28.willing to listen to other ideas. When the papers say there is

:37:29. > :37:33.capitulation, Downing Street said that is not. But just because it is

:37:34. > :37:40.on the table, it does not mean it will actually happen. Boris Johnson

:37:41. > :37:51.has been saying things about this? Yes, in the Daily Telegraph he says

:37:52. > :37:56.EU is not ready for compromise, but he points to Denmark where they have

:37:57. > :38:00.had an opt out regarding the ability to buy property if you are a

:38:01. > :38:05.foreigner. His argument is if the Danes can do that for property, the

:38:06. > :38:09.UK can do that for benefits. Downing Street say it is not a proposal on

:38:10. > :38:14.but it might end up there before the week is out.

:38:15. > :38:17.Still to come today: Shaker Aamer, the last British resident to be held

:38:18. > :38:19.in Guantanamo Bay, tells this programme some of his abuse

:38:20. > :38:21.at the hands of American guards was witnessed

:38:22. > :38:28.Tomorrow British astronaut Tim Peake will blast into space,

:38:29. > :38:30.propelled by 300 tonnes of rocket fuel, and head

:38:31. > :38:34.He's going up in a Russian spacecraft.

:38:35. > :38:37.He's had to learn Russian because that's the language

:38:38. > :38:42.He'll spend six months on the ISS, on his first ever mission.

:38:43. > :38:44.Tim Peake's parents, Nigel and Angela, are at

:38:45. > :38:47.the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, where the rocket

:38:48. > :38:52.They told the BBC's science correspondent Pallab Gosh how

:38:53. > :39:06.I am not worried, I am very excited. We have had a lot of support from

:39:07. > :39:09.the European Space Agency and they have taken us through every step of

:39:10. > :39:16.the way and I feel confident we know what is happening and very excited.

:39:17. > :39:22.Has Tim said anything to you? He is a fine and he is wearing to go. He

:39:23. > :39:28.is trained, ready, happy. They are altogether and waiting for the big

:39:29. > :39:32.liftoff. You must be very proud? Immensely proud and a bit overawed

:39:33. > :39:38.when you get here and see the scale of this operation. Tim Peake and the

:39:39. > :39:41.other astronauts have been in quarantine in Kazakhstan for a

:39:42. > :39:48.fortnight in the hope they will not get ill in space. He revealed what

:39:49. > :39:53.he is looking forward to. I hope for education and outreach. It is a

:39:54. > :39:58.wonderful opportunity to inspire a new generation of scientists and

:39:59. > :40:02.engineers. We have the most ambitious educational programme with

:40:03. > :40:06.this mission of any European space mission. Some of the experiments

:40:07. > :40:12.will be a lot of fun with the kids. The second part of the question, it

:40:13. > :40:16.really has to be the view of planet Earth and as much as I have spoken

:40:17. > :40:20.to astronauts and as much advice as they have given me, nothing can

:40:21. > :40:25.truly prepare you for that moment and that will occur in the

:40:26. > :40:29.spacecraft once we get injected into orbit and I will be able to look at

:40:30. > :40:30.the window and see that wonderful view of planet Earth.

:40:31. > :40:34.Joining us is Dr Robert Massey who's deputy executive director

:40:35. > :40:47.I wanted to pick your brains about what goes on up there. What happens

:40:48. > :40:51.on the International Space Station? It is not a huge orbital platform

:40:52. > :40:57.that brings together astronauts from many different countries, it is also

:40:58. > :41:00.a place for research. Tim will be doing things like experimenting with

:41:01. > :41:06.alloys, they will be looking at medical experiments regarding the

:41:07. > :41:11.human body and also look at biology. Space is a harsh environment. There

:41:12. > :41:14.are some things that seem to function up there and you can put

:41:15. > :41:19.biological samples outside and see how they fare after months or years

:41:20. > :41:26.of exposure to radiation and incredible temperatures. Can these

:41:27. > :41:33.experiments be simulated on earth? To some extent, but you cannot

:41:34. > :41:41.stimulate -- simulate the no gravity environment. You cannot do it in the

:41:42. > :41:46.way it is done in space. About ten years ago a report was commissioned

:41:47. > :41:50.on the scientific value of human space exploration and people on the

:41:51. > :41:55.panel were sceptical, but they came away concluding it was the right

:41:56. > :42:00.thing to do. These people are very hard-nosed and they were worried

:42:01. > :42:07.about the money. $100 million. The ISS is a very expensive project, but

:42:08. > :42:11.it is a cost spread over many years, two decades, and shared between a

:42:12. > :42:18.large number of nations, including the UK, there are 20 member states,

:42:19. > :42:21.the United States, the Japanese. When you divide that some by the

:42:22. > :42:27.number of countries and the period of time it does not look quite so

:42:28. > :42:33.bad. He has said it is a stepping stone to going to Mars. Is it? How

:42:34. > :42:38.far off is something like that? It is quite a long way off, at least 20

:42:39. > :42:43.years and probably longer, but he is absolutely right in the sense that

:42:44. > :42:51.if you do not understand all the issues around radiation and

:42:52. > :42:55.microgravity, and how people get on board on the space station and the

:42:56. > :42:59.psychology and not being able to communicate directly with people on

:43:00. > :43:03.earth for a long time, all of those things are important. He will

:43:04. > :43:08.simulate controlling a rope from space. It may well be that in the

:43:09. > :43:13.first Mars missions you have people orbiting the planet and controlling

:43:14. > :43:18.a robot on the planet. They will be simulating that. We heard from his

:43:19. > :43:24.parents and his dad has said he is more worried about him driving under

:43:25. > :43:28.27 and going into space. If it was me, I would not be quite that

:43:29. > :43:33.sanguine. The Russians are pretty good at this, but his parents are

:43:34. > :43:37.right in the sense that the Russians have a very good track record on

:43:38. > :43:43.this. They have been running the Soyuz spacecraft for getting on for

:43:44. > :43:49.50 years and it is very resilient. I think this is about as safe as it

:43:50. > :43:55.gets. And when you look at what he will be doing tomorrow he will be

:43:56. > :43:58.travelling for six hours at 17,500 miles an hour to hook up with the

:43:59. > :44:03.International Space Station. It is incredible. What is amazing is it

:44:04. > :44:10.gets from the ground to orbit in about ten minutes. Then the rest of

:44:11. > :44:14.the trip is a few orbit to line up with the space station. That used to

:44:15. > :44:19.take a couple of days, but now you can get there in a few hours. It is

:44:20. > :44:23.like taking a flight across the Atlantic. A bit more dramatic, but

:44:24. > :44:25.it is incredible that you can do it in that short space of time.

:44:26. > :44:31.We'll bring you all the build up to Tim Peake's launch into space

:44:32. > :44:35.Still to come: All the latest news, plus in the sport with Ore.

:44:36. > :44:37.Arsenal, Chelsea, and Manchester City will find out shortly

:44:38. > :44:40.who they will face in the last 16 of the Champions League.

:44:41. > :44:48.The draw will take place later this morning.

:44:49. > :44:57.It is time for a weather update. How are things looking? It has been very

:44:58. > :45:02.mild so far for much of December across much of the country. Many

:45:03. > :45:08.people have had to mow their lawns. But we did have a taste of the

:45:09. > :45:11.winter at the weekend. This picture was taken yesterday in County Durham

:45:12. > :45:17.and you can see the extent of the fresh snowfall. This is not far away

:45:18. > :45:28.from the areas affected by the flooding as well. Similar scenes in

:45:29. > :45:33.Scotland. This is from Moray in Scotland. The final picture is in

:45:34. > :45:38.Aberdeenshire. Beautiful scenes, and our first real taste of winter. It

:45:39. > :45:47.has been pretty mild. Obviously not everywhere. Is it going to be a mild

:45:48. > :45:51.Christmas? Things are looking pretty mild and pretty unsettled right up

:45:52. > :45:53.until Christmas. The odds are fairly low for a white Christmas for many

:45:54. > :46:08.of us. a mix of empathy which you have got,

:46:09. > :46:14.but exasperation. Gl we would have record-breaking

:46:15. > :46:18.mild weather in the week. Any sleet and snow clearing away from

:46:19. > :46:21.Scotland. Our attention turns to this rain in the south-west, Wales,

:46:22. > :46:26.pushing into Northern Ireland as well as we head through the course

:46:27. > :46:28.of the afternoon, but for Scotland's, a slightly improving

:46:29. > :46:32.story. So drying up but staying cold. We have that rain heading in

:46:33. > :46:37.across Northern Ireland, but for much of northern and eastern England

:46:38. > :46:41.things stay cloudy but largely dry, there is that rain affecting Wales

:46:42. > :46:44.around southern land. It won't be particularly heavy and the

:46:45. > :46:47.south-east of England and East Anglia probably set to stay dry into

:46:48. > :46:50.the course of this evening. Reasonably mild out there but we

:46:51. > :46:53.have that milder air sweeping in from the south-west. A breezy

:46:54. > :46:57.picture too, so heading through the course of this evening and

:46:58. > :47:01.overnight, a mild night with all the cloud, breeze round, we will have a

:47:02. > :47:04.lot of hill fog by Tuesday morning and for most of us things are

:47:05. > :47:06.looking frost-free but there could be a touch of frost in the far north

:47:07. > :47:11.of Scotland. So Tuesday dawns on a be a touch of frost in the far north

:47:12. > :47:15.cloudy but mild note, mist and hill fog, drizzle here and there, the

:47:16. > :47:21.next band of rain pushes in from the south-west. That will be heavy, we

:47:22. > :47:25.could see 20-30 millimetre of rain in ex poor and Dartmoor.

:47:26. > :47:29.Temperature-wise, round about 8 to 13 or 14 degree, so very mild for

:47:30. > :47:33.the time of year, particularly the further south you R windy in and

:47:34. > :47:36.round that area of rain, it heads northwards and eastwards through

:47:37. > :47:40.Tuesday, overnight into Wednesday, as well, so we still have enough of

:47:41. > :47:44.a breeze, and cloud round, to see a frost-free morning again, on

:47:45. > :47:47.Wednesday. In fact temperatures barely dropping down overnight. So

:47:48. > :47:51.very mild, on into the middle of the week. This is Wednesday, further

:47:52. > :47:56.showery rain in the east, later in the day, northern and western areas

:47:57. > :47:59.seeing more shower, breezy at times and temperatures between round about

:48:00. > :48:03.10-15 Celsius. So very mild weather throughout the

:48:04. > :48:06.week ahead, things often fairly breezy and there will be further

:48:07. > :48:11.rain on the cards but not looking as wet as we have seen it in the past

:48:12. > :48:15.ten days or so. If you would like to be a part of our weather forecasts

:48:16. > :48:17.you can join our weather watchers club, you can sign up to that, visit

:48:18. > :48:25.the website. Hello, it's Monday, it's 10 o'clock,

:48:26. > :48:27.I'm Joanna Gosling. Welcome to the programme

:48:28. > :48:29.if you've just joined us. In an exclusive in-depth interview

:48:30. > :48:34.the last British resident to be released from Guantanamo Bay

:48:35. > :48:36.describes torture at the US detention facility

:48:37. > :48:48.as "a way of life". He claims some of his abuse at the

:48:49. > :48:51.hands of American guards was witnessed by British intelligence

:48:52. > :48:58.officers who he says did nothing to stop it. Are you adamant there was

:48:59. > :49:04.an English officer, intelligence officer s agent in that room? When

:49:05. > :49:11.your heading with being beaten against that wall? I would say 80,

:49:12. > :49:12.90%. I have no doubt he is an Englishman.

:49:13. > :49:16.He tells this programme that he refused to let his spirit be

:49:17. > :49:25.broken and went to extreme lengths to cope with life in isolation.

:49:26. > :49:34.Animals, insects, all kind of things they do know us, they knew me, as

:49:35. > :49:40.me. Because I used to feed them three times a day, with the food,

:49:41. > :49:44.certain time, and they don't bother me, that is one of the things that

:49:45. > :49:52.kept me going, I had somebody to talk to, I had some people to watch.

:49:53. > :49:57.We will bring you that exclusive interview, you can watch the full

:49:58. > :49:58.version or or programme page. you can watch the full version

:49:59. > :50:00.or or programme page. Also this morning -

:50:01. > :50:03.swiping to save a life. The NHS is teaming up

:50:04. > :50:05.with dating app Tinder, to encourage users to sign

:50:06. > :50:07.up to organ donation The last British resident

:50:08. > :50:17.held at Guantanamo Bay, Shaker Aamer, has told this

:50:18. > :50:20.programme he doesn't intend to take legal action against the Government

:50:21. > :50:21.over his imprisonment Mr Aamer also says British

:50:22. > :50:28.intelligence officials witnessed some of the abuse he claims

:50:29. > :50:31.was inflicted on him by American interrogators at a prison

:50:32. > :50:39.in Afghanistan in 2002. Children's services departments

:50:40. > :50:41.in England, which are judged to be failing vulnerable youngsters,

:50:42. > :50:43.face being taken over by high-performing

:50:44. > :50:44.councils and charities. Experts will be sent in immediately

:50:45. > :50:47.to run child protection services at Sunderland City Council,

:50:48. > :50:49.and departments at other councils, judged inadequate by Ofsted will be

:50:50. > :50:59.taken over unless they improve. China has said police acted

:51:00. > :51:03.within the law after scuffles broke out outside court as one

:51:04. > :51:06.of the country's most high-profile human rights lawyers went

:51:07. > :51:07.on trial in Beijing. Pu Zhiqiang is facing a lengthy

:51:08. > :51:10.prison sentence for a series of irreverent tweets

:51:11. > :51:12.he posted on social media, questioning the legitimacy

:51:13. > :51:20.of Communist Party rule. There's been a dramatic rise

:51:21. > :51:23.in the number of newborn babies, Researchers from Lancaster

:51:24. > :51:26.University found that about 10% of the babies that are removed

:51:27. > :51:29.at birth will be returned to their mothers at the end

:51:30. > :51:31.of care proceedings. Some may be looked after by other

:51:32. > :51:34.family members, while others may go into foster care or be

:51:35. > :51:40.placed for adoption. A British drugs company has been

:51:41. > :51:43.ordered to pull some of its popular Nurofen painkiller brands off

:51:44. > :51:45.the shelves in Australia, after a court ruled it had

:51:46. > :51:52.made misleading claims. The company has admitted

:51:53. > :51:54.to selling identical products marketed to treat specific types

:51:55. > :51:57.of pain, for almost double the price The British astronaut Tim Peake

:51:58. > :52:01.is making final preparations ahead of his launch to the

:52:02. > :52:03.International Space Station. He's due to blast into space

:52:04. > :52:06.tomorrow morning from Kazakhstan for a six-month mission,

:52:07. > :52:08.which will see him and his team carry out a variety of experiments

:52:09. > :52:15.and tests for researchers. Let's catch up with all the sport

:52:16. > :52:19.now and join Ore, and all eyes on the Champions League

:52:20. > :52:29.draw later this morning. Morning, another day, another

:52:30. > :52:33.football draw, you remember how much excitement pulling a few balls out

:52:34. > :52:37.after pot created on Saturday when England and Wales were drawn against

:52:38. > :52:41.each other at the Euro 2016 tournament. Popcorn at the ready.

:52:42. > :52:45.This morning it is the turn of the Champions League last 16 draw.

:52:46. > :52:52.Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea the remaining English sides in the

:52:53. > :52:55.competition. The Gunners will most likely have the trickiest opponents.

:52:56. > :52:58.Top of the Premier League after yesterday's win, they scraped

:52:59. > :53:02.through their group as runners-up so will be picked to play one of the

:53:03. > :53:06.other group's winners. It has been a dreadful season for Chelsea so far

:53:07. > :53:11.in the Premier League. Eight defeats from 15 matches has left them a

:53:12. > :53:17.point off the relegation zone, it has however been a different story

:53:18. > :53:20.in this Champions League. They, like Manchester City qualify as group

:53:21. > :53:26.winners so should be rewarded with a more favourable draw. And it is

:53:27. > :53:30.here, how the 16 club also line up. Group winners in pot one will join

:53:31. > :53:34.pot two there is no danger of the Premier League sides facing each

:53:35. > :53:42.other and no team can play a team from their own grueb. Arsenal could

:53:43. > :53:47.a face Real Madrid or Barcelona while Chelsea and Manchester City

:53:48. > :53:53.will hope to avoid Paris St Germain. The Europa draw follows

:53:54. > :53:59.straightaway. How about this for a happy ending.

:54:00. > :54:03.Husband and wife team Chris and Gabby Adcock who have created

:54:04. > :54:10.badminton history over the weekend. They became the first British pair

:54:11. > :54:17.to win the world superseries, they defeated the South Koreans. They

:54:18. > :54:21.have already next summer's picks in their sights. We are so excited

:54:22. > :54:26.about Rio, every athlete's dream is to be in the Olympics and obviously

:54:27. > :54:30.win a medal, so, yes, we will obviously, there is a lot of

:54:31. > :54:34.tournaments before that, but we will train harder and try and get better,

:54:35. > :54:40.when it comes to it, I am sure we will be excited to get going.

:54:41. > :54:43.And in 24 hours' time England's cricketers will begin their winter

:54:44. > :54:49.tour to South Africa. Steven Finn has been brought into the squad. He

:54:50. > :55:01.missed the Pakistan series because' a bone stress injury to his foot.

:55:02. > :55:07.They will start with a warm-up game. Probably trying to find the best

:55:08. > :55:11.combination of players and people who like now, they have become

:55:12. > :55:13.automatic selection due to wickets they have taken or run or

:55:14. > :55:19.contributions they are making to the side. There is a lot to play for,

:55:20. > :55:23.you know, internally in the next nine, ten days. There will be a lot

:55:24. > :55:27.to play for when the Test series get in the way, England not having

:55:28. > :55:28.beaten South Africa in South Africa for 11 years.

:55:29. > :55:35.Hello, thank you for joining us this morning.

:55:36. > :55:37.Welcome to the programme, if you've just joined us.

:55:38. > :55:40.We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:55:41. > :55:42.You've been talking to us this morning about our interview

:55:43. > :55:46.Tweet from John - Americans should be deeply ashamed of Guantanamo,

:55:47. > :55:50.I really hope the UK was not complicit too.

:55:51. > :55:53.Text from Nigel - "It would help us to make an informed decision

:55:54. > :55:56.about Shaker if he would explain what he was doing in Afghanistan

:55:57. > :55:59.in the middle of a war zone and why he moved his family to the middle

:56:00. > :56:04.An anonymous tweet - "He does not need to

:56:05. > :56:06.prove his innocence - surely the onus is on the Americans

:56:07. > :56:11.to prove is guilt, which obviously they could not do."

:56:12. > :56:14.As ever we're really keen to hear from you this morning.

:56:15. > :56:17.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:56:18. > :56:19.And of course you can watch the programme online

:56:20. > :56:22.wherever you are - via the bbc news app or our website

:56:23. > :56:26.bbc.co.uk/victoria - and you can also subscribe

:56:27. > :56:29.to all our features on the news app, by going to add topics and searching

:56:30. > :56:37.Shaker Aamer was held at Guantananamo Bay for five

:56:38. > :56:39.thousand and eight days without charge or trial.

:56:40. > :56:42.The British resident was accused by the US of being an al-Qaeda

:56:43. > :56:52.He is now a free man having been released just over a month ago.

:56:53. > :56:54.This morning in an exclusive in-depth interview he tells this

:56:55. > :56:57.programme that torture at the US detention facility was a way of life

:56:58. > :57:00.and that some of his abuse at the hands of American guards

:57:01. > :57:03.was witnessed by a British intelligence officer who did nothing

:57:04. > :57:13.Speaking to Victoria he tells us how US guards threatened

:57:14. > :57:16.to rape his then five-year-old daughter.

:57:17. > :57:20.He compares his time at Guantanamo Bay to

:57:21. > :57:23.Harry Potter's The Prisoner of Azkaban, that he had attended

:57:24. > :57:25.talks in London given by the Jordanian Abu Qatada,

:57:26. > :57:27.a radical preacher who, as years went by, became

:57:28. > :57:33.He saw one detainee being taken away from Bagram airbase in Afghanistan

:57:34. > :57:39.This is significant because that detainee is alleged to have given

:57:40. > :57:45.false evidence, under torture, of a link between Saddam Hussein

:57:46. > :57:47.and Al-Qaeda, which led to the Iraq war.

:57:48. > :57:50.He has no plans to take legal action against the British government over

:57:51. > :57:52.the abuse against him intelligence officers allegedly witnessed.

:57:53. > :57:54.You can watch the full interview on our programme page

:57:55. > :58:04.Over the course of the programme we're playing you three parts

:58:05. > :58:06.of that exclusive wide-ranging interview.

:58:07. > :58:08.Some of his descriptions of his alleged treatment are graphic.

:58:09. > :58:11.In the first part Shaker Aamer described how he was initially held

:58:12. > :58:13.at Bagram airbase near the Afghanistan capital Kabul before

:58:14. > :58:16.He described how his head was repeatedly banged

:58:17. > :58:19.against the wall by US guards, he says, in front of a British

:58:20. > :58:43.Are you adamant that there was an English officer, intelligence

:58:44. > :58:48.officer, agent in that room, when your head was being beaten against

:58:49. > :58:51.that wall? I have no doubt he is an Englishman, because the way he

:58:52. > :58:57.spoke, the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting far away,

:58:58. > :59:03.looking at me, you know, and because the day before, I met John who told

:59:04. > :59:10.me I'm with the MI5 intelligence service and I came to ask you a few

:59:11. > :59:16.questions. So I have no doubt he was an Englishman. Did this English

:59:17. > :59:20.intelligence officer take part in the violence against you? No. Did he

:59:21. > :59:26.make any attempt to stop what was happening to you No Could he have

:59:27. > :59:37.done? Yes. Indeed, they can. If what you have said is true, then he was

:59:38. > :59:42.complicit. Or maybe he's unable to do anything. Because I hear it from

:59:43. > :59:46.others, not from him, not from John, himself, but I hear it from others,

:59:47. > :59:50.that listen, this is all totally Americans. But you said he could

:59:51. > :59:55.have intervened. He could. What else would British agents backbench aware

:59:56. > :00:00.of in terms of your treatment at Bagram? Everything. I think they

:00:01. > :00:03.know everybody. So the way you were held, the fact you were in cage, the

:00:04. > :00:07.freezing temperature, the water being thrown on you, the

:00:08. > :00:11.humiliation, the violence. Because one thing about me I have been

:00:12. > :00:15.isolated from the day I arrived. I was by myself in a cage, all the

:00:16. > :00:21.time and most of the time standing up. 18 hours a day. 16, 18 hours a

:00:22. > :00:24.day, every day awake and every day standing up, sometimes with my hands

:00:25. > :00:39.out and you cannot miss me. So British intelligence officers

:00:40. > :00:44.would have seen you? Definitely. So you believe the British Government

:00:45. > :00:50.knew that people like you were being treated like that? I do not want to

:00:51. > :00:51.say the government. I think is the intelligence services, which is

:00:52. > :01:09.different the government. After the walling, you were told to

:01:10. > :01:17.tell the truth or you would die and a gun was left on a table in front

:01:18. > :01:24.of you. Why do you think the gun was there? I was going to grab it and I

:01:25. > :01:32.was going to kill myself, or the guards were told that I would try to

:01:33. > :01:39.harm them. I just had my eyes on the gun and I was thinking, no, I am not

:01:40. > :01:49.going to even touch that gun. I am going to do nothing. Just ignore it.

:01:50. > :01:57.Think it is not there. Even though inside the temptation is great, just

:01:58. > :02:02.end yourself here. This is it. But I resisted that feeling. I resisted

:02:03. > :02:07.that hate. I would never harm anybody. Truly I cannot. Did they

:02:08. > :02:13.say to you tell the truth or you will die? The whole thing is I told

:02:14. > :02:19.them the truth, but it was not the truth they wanted. What did they

:02:20. > :02:25.want you to say? That he is with bin Ladin. I believe that video was

:02:26. > :02:34.being filmed that said I was with bin Ladin. And you sign a statement?

:02:35. > :02:37.No, that is another lie. I never signed anything from the day I was

:02:38. > :02:44.kidnapped until the day I left Guantanamo Bay. I did not sign a

:02:45. > :02:52.single thing. At Bagram Libyan man was held there at the time as you

:02:53. > :02:56.and one of your lawyers says you witnessed him being taken out of

:02:57. > :03:02.Bagram alive in a coffin. Is that correct? Yes, it is correct, but I

:03:03. > :03:11.want you to understand that truly the whole thing about this is very

:03:12. > :03:17.critical at this time and there are a lot of things I cannot talk about

:03:18. > :03:27.yet. I know the effect of what I have seen and what I witnessed is

:03:28. > :03:32.not going to jeopardise my security and my safety in displays, so let's

:03:33. > :03:36.leave it to another time. Would you like to see that then Prime Minister

:03:37. > :03:42.Tony Blair and the then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw held to account

:03:43. > :03:46.for what happened to you? The only thing I would like to happen was for

:03:47. > :03:51.Tony Blair and whoever was in the government at that time to tell the

:03:52. > :03:56.truth. Do you believe Tony Blair knew what was going on at Bagram at

:03:57. > :04:03.that time? Definitely. They know what they were doing. If these guys

:04:04. > :04:10.at the head of state do not know, who is supposed to know? After

:04:11. > :04:17.Bagram you were moved to Kandahar. Did the same treatment continue? It

:04:18. > :04:23.was absolutely worse. In what way? First of all, when I get to Kandahar

:04:24. > :04:32.and they have something called a welcoming party where they really

:04:33. > :04:38.beat you up. US soldiers? Yes, 16 jumping on your back, keeping your

:04:39. > :04:45.head with their boots. Plus I spoke good English which made it horrible

:04:46. > :04:53.for me. There was a guy next to me and they were doing horrible things

:04:54. > :04:56.to him with their M-16. What? They are trying to shove their rifle in

:04:57. > :05:06.his backside and the guy is screaming, I am not a woman. It was

:05:07. > :05:10.so sad, it was so upsetting. Then I had to do something. I started

:05:11. > :05:21.speaking in English. This guy is saying this to me. As soon as they

:05:22. > :05:28.heard me speaking English, they just turned on me and started chatting,

:05:29. > :05:33.he is a traitor. And I had it left and right and they did it for two or

:05:34. > :05:41.three hours. That is one of the times I thought I was not going to

:05:42. > :05:45.survive. I was speaking to my Guardian and pray in, this is my

:05:46. > :05:53.last few minutes. How did you survive? Truly, I do not know. I

:05:54. > :05:58.promise you I do not know. There were threats against your family at

:05:59. > :06:03.that time. One particular interrogator threatened to sexually

:06:04. > :06:11.assault your five-year-old daughter. Yes, that was the hardest thing, the

:06:12. > :06:17.hardest thing I ever heard. What did he say? It was the worst experience

:06:18. > :06:24.I ever had in my life. I was for ten days starving with no water, no

:06:25. > :06:30.nothing and he was so horrible. That is the time he told me, your wife

:06:31. > :06:36.and your daughter is with us and if you do not start talking, we will

:06:37. > :06:47.rape your daughter and you will hear her crying, daddy, daddy. That was

:06:48. > :06:50.completely inhumane. It was worse than the beating, worse than

:06:51. > :07:00.everything, thinking about my daughter. I just sat there silent,

:07:01. > :07:09.completely. For three or four days I did not say a word. And then he came

:07:10. > :07:18.back and he tried to be Mr nice. He started to say, we are trying to

:07:19. > :07:24.help you here. Anything. You do not know whether to hate him or to kill

:07:25. > :07:31.him. I thought those times would never end, I thought I would die.

:07:32. > :07:38.Did you genuinely believe they had your wife and daughter? Yes, I did

:07:39. > :07:44.not know when I separated from my wife if she was safe in that house,

:07:45. > :07:51.she could have been anywhere. She could have been sold to the

:07:52. > :07:59.Americans. I just shut down, I did not speak to anybody after that for

:08:00. > :08:04.four days. Where British officers at Kandahar as well? Yes. What did they

:08:05. > :08:14.witness? I think they know what happened. Did you witness the

:08:15. > :08:22.treatment? He saw me on the floor. He saw how miserable I was living.

:08:23. > :08:31.Did he take part in anything? No. Mistreatment? No, not at all. I

:08:32. > :08:37.would like to make a list of claims that the US Department made against

:08:38. > :08:42.you, in 2007 it concluded you were high risk and were likely to pose a

:08:43. > :08:46.threat to the interests of the US and its allies. None of the

:08:47. > :08:53.allegations are true that they have been saying about me. You were an

:08:54. > :08:59.Al-Qaeda operative? Not at all. Prove anything that you say is true,

:09:00. > :09:07.prove it to the world. You held a senior position in a UK-based

:09:08. > :09:13.Al-Qaeda cell. Allegations. You were a close associate of Osama Bin

:09:14. > :09:17.Laden. Wow, keep going. How? Where is the British intelligence at that

:09:18. > :09:23.time. Five years I have been living in this country, how come and

:09:24. > :09:30.operative for Osama Bin Laden? You never communicated with them? You

:09:31. > :09:35.never met him? No, definitely. If the British say otherwise, why

:09:36. > :09:40.didn't you give it to the Americans to prove I was communicating with

:09:41. > :09:46.him. You were an Al-Qaeda recruiter, Finance and facilitator with a

:09:47. > :09:52.history of dissipating? That is a joke. You indicated your willingness

:09:53. > :09:56.to become a martyr and served as a sub command and in the mountains in

:09:57. > :10:06.Afghanistan. I have never been trained. In Bosnia in the mid-90s

:10:07. > :10:14.you met Baba Ahmed who was later sentenced in the US for supporting

:10:15. > :10:23.terrorism. In fact I was with him last night and I saw him after 15

:10:24. > :10:27.years. We were all doing what everybody was proud at that time,

:10:28. > :10:34.help the Bosnian people. Did you fight in Bosnia? No, I did not. You

:10:35. > :10:39.lived in London with the only terrorist to be convicted for his

:10:40. > :10:48.part in 9/11. I never lived in Brixton. Did you live with him? No,

:10:49. > :10:55.I did not. I knew a lot of people, but it does not make me a bad guy.

:10:56. > :11:04.You had links to well-known British jihad is like Abu Qatada and Abu

:11:05. > :11:09.Hamza. I would be lying if I say I knew him. I know of him because he

:11:10. > :11:14.was in the mosque. Abu Qatada used to break in his place. I used to sit

:11:15. > :11:22.and listen to his speeches and I know he is not a bad guy. He is not

:11:23. > :11:24.somebody horrible as they say he is. Described by Spanish studies as

:11:25. > :11:32.Osama Bin Laden's right-hand man in Europe. According to my own

:11:33. > :11:36.knowledge he had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden and he never

:11:37. > :11:41.preached about him in his circles and he never encouraged anyone to go

:11:42. > :11:46.to Afghanistan. One final one from that department file, you admitted

:11:47. > :11:54.you associated with the shoe bomber Richard Reid. Lies, I do not even

:11:55. > :11:59.know who he is. He attempted to put explosives in tissue and get on a

:12:00. > :12:06.plane. I do not know anything about him, who is he? This file containing

:12:07. > :12:10.these accusations came out in 2007, several months after you had been

:12:11. > :12:17.cleared for release by the Bush administration. What is going on? It

:12:18. > :12:24.is amazing. These allegations came after they cleared me. And yet what

:12:25. > :12:31.did they find out? After they cleared me they found that out? What

:12:32. > :12:35.is going on? Because of the amount of knowledge I have because I am

:12:36. > :12:40.talking. I never keep anything secret, I speak my heart and I am

:12:41. > :12:49.not scared to say I know. The more they knew that I know, the more they

:12:50. > :12:56.got scared. It is scary sometimes. It is scary after 14 years. They can

:12:57. > :13:00.fabricate anything. They can do something to harm me, they can

:13:01. > :13:06.intimidate me. You are talking about the government, you are not talking

:13:07. > :13:09.about individuals. It is scary to think about being back again to jail

:13:10. > :13:13.and being in the horrible situation I was in before.

:13:14. > :13:15.On the specific claim that a British intelligence officer

:13:16. > :13:18.witnessed his alleged abuse, both MI5 and MI6 have a policy

:13:19. > :13:23.A spokesperson for the former British Prime Minister Tony Blair

:13:24. > :13:26.says: Tony Blair has always been opposed to the use of torture,

:13:27. > :13:30.has always said so publicly and privately, has never

:13:31. > :13:33.condoned its use and thinks it is totally unacceptable.

:13:34. > :13:35.The Foreign Office says: The UK government stands firmly

:13:36. > :13:38.against torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading

:13:39. > :14:07.The US Dept of Defense says they do not tolerate the abuse

:14:08. > :14:12.All credible allegations of abuse are thoroughly

:14:13. > :14:14.investigated, and appropriate disciplinary action is taken

:14:15. > :14:36.when those allegations are substantiated.

:14:37. > :14:41.I can't believe governments, secret services etc would spend

:14:42. > :14:44.suspects who they think could be innocent.

:14:45. > :14:48.It's frightening how someone can be imprisoned

:14:49. > :14:50.without a fair trial for fourteen years,

:14:51. > :14:52.Taliban or not, although clearly he was not.

:14:53. > :14:54.Shaker had the right to a fair trial.

:14:55. > :15:00.against the terrorists, other Muslims should take his lead

:15:01. > :15:03.and point the finger at those who would terrorise us.

:15:04. > :15:05.Thank you Shaker, I now feel that there is one

:15:06. > :15:15.You can watch the full interview on our programme page

:15:16. > :15:19.Later in the programme we'll bring you more of that interview

:15:20. > :15:21.including his time at Guantanamo Bay.

:15:22. > :15:24.The 48-year-old tells Victoria how he made friends with ants

:15:25. > :15:30.during his time in solitary confinement.

:15:31. > :15:33.The last British resident held at Guantanamo Bay,

:15:34. > :15:35.Shaker Aamer, has told this programme of the alleged torture

:15:36. > :15:40.Mr Aamer says a British intelligence agent witnessed some of the abuse

:15:41. > :15:43.he claims was inflicted on him by American interrogators

:15:44. > :15:51.Somebody grabbed my head and just smacking it to the wall behind,

:15:52. > :15:55.Just pain, pain after pain, and all I'm trying to do

:15:56. > :15:57.is protect my head you know, trying to pull back.

:15:58. > :16:07.And all I feel is boom back again, you know.

:16:08. > :16:09.There's been a dramatic rise in the number of newborn babies,

:16:10. > :16:12.Researchers from Lancaster University found that about 10%

:16:13. > :16:15.of the babies that are removed at birth will be returned

:16:16. > :16:17.to their mothers at the end of care proceedings.

:16:18. > :16:20.Some may be looked after by other family members, while others may go

:16:21. > :16:22.into foster care or be placed for adoption.

:16:23. > :16:25.The British astronaut Tim Peake is making final preparations ahead

:16:26. > :16:26.of his launch to the International Space Station.

:16:27. > :16:29.He's due to blast into space tomorrow morning from Kazakhstan

:16:30. > :16:31.for a six-month mission, which will see him and his team

:16:32. > :16:42.carry out a variety of experiments and tests for researchers.

:16:43. > :16:48.Draw for the St knock out statements of the Champions League, taking

:16:49. > :16:52.place in the next half an hour in Switzerland. Three English sides

:16:53. > :16:55.will be there, Arsenal, are most likely to have the trickiest

:16:56. > :16:58.opponent, they are top of the Premier League after yesterday's win

:16:59. > :17:03.over Aston Villa but they just scraped through their group as oners

:17:04. > :17:10.up so they will be picked to play one of the other's group's winner.

:17:11. > :17:15.Breaking golf news we know the 2022 Ryder Cup held in Rome. It will be

:17:16. > :17:20.be the third time in the event's history it has been held on mainland

:17:21. > :17:26.Europe, the first was in 97 in Spain, France will host the 2018

:17:27. > :17:29.edition. England's cricketers will begin

:17:30. > :17:32.their winter tour in South Africa tomorrow. They have announced Steven

:17:33. > :17:38.FBI has been added to the test squad. He missed the series against

:17:39. > :17:43.Pakistan because' a bone stress injury to his foot. Husband and wife

:17:44. > :17:52.team Chris and Gabby Adcock have created wad Minton history in Dubai,

:17:53. > :17:59.becoming the first British pair to win the superservices beating the

:18:00. > :18:01.South Koreans two games to nil. Keep your thoughts coming in on our

:18:02. > :18:06.interview with Shaker Aamer. NHS Blood and Transplant

:18:07. > :18:13.is teaming up with Tinder, the dating app, to try to get more

:18:14. > :18:16.young people to sign up There are almost 7,000 people

:18:17. > :18:20.on the UK transplant waiting list. And every day three people die

:18:21. > :18:22.in need of a transplant. The NHS Blood and Transplant

:18:23. > :18:24.campaign is targeting Tinder's 18-35 demographic to

:18:25. > :18:26.educate and inform people of their potential

:18:27. > :18:28.to be life-savers. With me now is Sally Johnson,

:18:29. > :18:30.director of Organ Donation and Transplantation at NHS

:18:31. > :18:32.Blood and Transplant. And in West Sussex we can

:18:33. > :18:34.speak to Dr Simon Howell. He was born with a serious kidney

:18:35. > :18:42.condition and he has been Sally, NHS and tinder, is not an

:18:43. > :18:45.obvious hook up, how has it come about? I may not be an obvious hook

:18:46. > :18:47.up but it's a great opportunity to get our message over to a group of

:18:48. > :18:51.people who perhaps don't watch some of the mainstream media and will

:18:52. > :18:57.interact with tinder and find a match. So it is the key demographic

:18:58. > :19:03.of 18-35. It's a great opportunity to get to that audience. And so how

:19:04. > :19:07.will it work? So basically, if you swipe right on tinder you will find

:19:08. > :19:11.a match, and when your match comes up, if it is is one of the people

:19:12. > :19:15.who are working with us, one of our celebrities, then it will highlight

:19:16. > :19:18.why it is so important to find an organ match, and how long people

:19:19. > :19:23.wait, to encourage people to join the register. Let us talk to Simon,

:19:24. > :19:29.because Simon, I know you have been on the waiting list for a new kidney

:19:30. > :19:34.for six year, what has it been like? It has been a very long wait. You

:19:35. > :19:38.know, normal life has to go on, I have a family, I have young

:19:39. > :19:43.children, and somehow you have to find ways to make things work,

:19:44. > :19:50.despite being very ill. So what do you need a transplant for? Why is it

:19:51. > :19:54.taking so long? I need a new kidney, both failed over ten years ago now,

:19:55. > :20:00.and I had a transplant from my mother, but that only lasted a few

:20:01. > :20:05.years, and I had to go on diagnosis, as you say, five years ago now. So

:20:06. > :20:10.Sally, he has been waiting more than six year, why is it taking so long?

:20:11. > :20:15.When you need a kidney you need one that matches your blood group and

:20:16. > :20:19.tissue type. There are very few people I think realise how small a

:20:20. > :20:25.number people die in circumstances where they can be organ donors every

:20:26. > :20:30.year, so it is only ability 5,000, even potentially able to donate

:20:31. > :20:35.their or gone, you have to die in precise circumstances and about 1300

:20:36. > :20:39.of those will go on to be donors. Out of after that we have to find

:20:40. > :20:44.somebody with the right blood match and tissue type match for Simon. I

:20:45. > :20:49.keep hoping I won't see him appear in programme like this and we will

:20:50. > :20:55.have found a kidney for him. He has been waiting way too long. It is an

:20:56. > :20:59.ongoing issue o are things change something are more people signing

:21:00. > :21:03.up? Yes, more people are signing up, we have got, you know, over a third

:21:04. > :21:07.of the population on the organ donor register, but the difficulty is,

:21:08. > :21:12.that although we have lots of people signed up, you have to, you don't

:21:13. > :21:18.donate immediately, so, you have to wait for someone to die in the right

:21:19. > :21:23.circumstances, to be a donor, so essentially we need everybody to be

:21:24. > :21:26.prepared to donate, when and if they are in a position to do so. And to

:21:27. > :21:31.join the register, and tell their families. Sally and Simon thank you.

:21:32. > :21:33.We hope that something comes through for you soon, Simon. Thank you.

:21:34. > :21:37.This morning's programme has been dominated by our exclusive interview

:21:38. > :21:40.with Shaker Aamer, the last British resident to have left Guantanamo

:21:41. > :21:42.In our wide-ranging interview he tells Victoria

:21:43. > :21:45.what it was like to be held without charge or trial

:21:46. > :21:48.The US claimed he was an Al-Qaeda operative.

:21:49. > :21:50.His lawyers say the case against him came from unreliable allegations

:21:51. > :21:53.extracted during torture, and that his treatment at the US

:21:54. > :21:55.military base in Cuba raises serious questions about the legality

:21:56. > :21:57.and morality of the so-called war on terror.

:21:58. > :21:59.Earlier, you heard the 48-year-old describe alleged brutality

:22:00. > :22:02.against him whilst he was being held at Bagram Airbase in Agfhanistan.

:22:03. > :22:05.Brutality, he says, was witnessed by at least one British intelligence

:22:06. > :22:09.In this final part he tells us about his detention

:22:10. > :22:12.at Guantanamo Bay where he was kept in solitary confinement for long

:22:13. > :22:13.periods and repeatedly went on hunger strike.

:22:14. > :22:17.He also confirms for the first time that he won't be taking legal action

:22:18. > :22:41.There is some graphic description in his answers.

:22:42. > :22:48.On Valentine's Day in 2002 you were transferred to Guantanamo Bay. You

:22:49. > :22:52.didn't know it at the time, it was the day your youngest son was born,

:22:53. > :23:02.did you have any idea what to expect there? I just have a general idea,

:23:03. > :23:06.but I was shocked. Not the first day, the first second I arrived. The

:23:07. > :23:10.first thing they tell you when they drag you, they don't allow you to

:23:11. > :23:15.walk, they drag you on your feet. They drag you, pulling you, and your

:23:16. > :23:18.feet hit the stairs and all that and on the bus, and they said this is

:23:19. > :23:21.the end, this is the end of your life, you will never leave this

:23:22. > :23:25.place again. And then they tie you to the bus and the ground with the

:23:26. > :23:29.chain and your hand, they tie you with your legs and then they start

:23:30. > :23:33.hitting you left and right. Even though it was in that dark time, in

:23:34. > :23:37.that dark moment of getting beaten up, left and right, then I reel

:23:38. > :23:45.realise I realise it is not what they told us back in Kandahar, that

:23:46. > :23:52.Guantanamo will be OK. How would you describe it? You know, the closest

:23:53. > :23:57.thing for my mind is the Harry Potter stories because I read it.

:23:58. > :24:02.They have an island which says Azkaban. Where there is no

:24:03. > :24:07.happiness, they just suck all your feelings out of you. You don't have

:24:08. > :24:12.no feeling any more, and truly, that is how I felt all the time, this is

:24:13. > :24:16.Azkaban, this is not where this world. That is what they tried, you

:24:17. > :24:21.know, they want to make you feelingness, they want to deprive

:24:22. > :24:27.you from everything, anything, even the feeling of belonging to

:24:28. > :24:31.something or you know, this is my self, you can't even say this is

:24:32. > :24:35.myself. They keep making you do inside the cell that is against your

:24:36. > :24:40.will. In terms of the interrogation you received at Guantanamo Bay, can

:24:41. > :24:43.you describe that for us? They are not looking for answers, they just

:24:44. > :24:48.looking to blame you on something regardless, if you are telling the

:24:49. > :24:52.truth or not. How did these interrogations at Guantanamo differ

:24:53. > :24:58.to what happened to you, you say at Bagram and Kandahar? In Guantanamo

:24:59. > :25:04.they were more careful. It is more discreet, it is more, you know, all

:25:05. > :25:09.the method of the torture in Guantanamo is like I told you like a

:25:10. > :25:12.cover up for it so they can practise, all this humiliation,

:25:13. > :25:16.because themselves, they feel like you know, like we are the people who

:25:17. > :25:21.done it, so let us take revenge. Is You said in a statement in 2013,

:25:22. > :25:26.that you were visited three times in Guantanamo Bay by British

:25:27. > :25:29.intelligence officers. Yes. Were they involved while the

:25:30. > :25:32.interrogations were going on? No. What did they see, of the way you

:25:33. > :25:40.were treated? They just know about it, as I told you last time, just,

:25:41. > :25:46.about the guy whose name was John, and Tony, he total me I know what

:25:47. > :25:49.they are doing to you. We know. But I promise you one thing, when you

:25:50. > :25:55.come back to England you will know we are not like them. Which made me

:25:56. > :26:00.feel so good, so happy. And that was the first time, you know, somebody

:26:01. > :26:03.really, I thought was sympathising with me, because the other two time,

:26:04. > :26:11.they were just coming to interrogate me. You have described torture as a

:26:12. > :26:19.way of life, 24/7, a world of mental and physical destruction Indeed.

:26:20. > :26:22.Explain what forced cell extraction involved It has been designed by

:26:23. > :26:26.psychologist, people they know how to manipulate you, how to make you

:26:27. > :26:33.get scared, so the guard come and ask you for very little thing, like

:26:34. > :26:38.a back of salt he didn't find in the meal. Where is the pack of salt, you

:26:39. > :26:42.are not supposed to keep it? Maybe you didn't even have it. I said I

:26:43. > :26:48.don't vet. Like I told you they start coming, there is like six

:26:49. > :26:54.guards, and you will find yourself 15, 17 people coming towards you,

:26:55. > :27:00.while all of these guards from the beginning of the block, marching

:27:01. > :27:03.with big, you know, heavy steps, and ng towards you, while all of these

:27:04. > :27:05.guards from the beginning of the block, marching with big, you know,

:27:06. > :27:08.heavy steps, and you would be waiting "Oh my God" and everybody is

:27:09. > :27:11.shouting they are coming, they come in front of the door and they start

:27:12. > :27:14.shouting go down, put your face on the floor, put your hands behind

:27:15. > :27:18.you, thing like that, because it head has to be in the toilet. You

:27:19. > :27:23.have to stick your head with your own self on the toilet to let them

:27:24. > :27:28.in. You will be say I am sitting on bed. They won't accept it. If you go

:27:29. > :27:32.to the bed, that means you are asking for trouble. That means you

:27:33. > :27:37.are refusing order, most of the time they spray you can gas, with that

:27:38. > :27:39.pepper, pepper spray, for no reason, you are sitting there, just waiting

:27:40. > :27:45.for them to come inside. But they won't. And they won't even accept

:27:46. > :27:50.your hands to be shackled. So they spray you, and your face, and then

:27:51. > :27:54.they come with the shields so fast and they just mash you in your face

:27:55. > :27:59.and they push you down and the other guards they pull you down, throw you

:28:00. > :28:02.on the for a, try to pin you down with your face on the toilet. It is

:28:03. > :28:07.against my will. What can I do? They tie you from the back and they pit

:28:08. > :28:14.your legs and push against your back. Until they shackle you and

:28:15. > :28:19.neckache up you up and they throw you outside on the floor, which is a

:28:20. > :28:22.very dirty floor, and they search you and they keep you in that

:28:23. > :28:26.position for a while. Depends how much they want to put you under a

:28:27. > :28:32.lot of pain. After that they put you request nothing, you can be sleeping

:28:33. > :28:40.with nothing for days and days and days. And over what? Over a pack of

:28:41. > :28:44.salt. Or the stem from an apple? Or the stem from an apple. It is

:28:45. > :28:47.amazing, I want member when they hear the story, you are talking

:28:48. > :28:51.about a stem. Why not give them the stem to avoid that? Because for

:28:52. > :28:54.first of all, because I felt that is what they want, they want me to

:28:55. > :28:59.submit to them, they want me to be broken and that is why as soon as

:29:00. > :29:04.they leave the cell. Take the stem and show it to them. As much as they

:29:05. > :29:12.want me, to be broken, as much as I wan to show them, no, you are not

:29:13. > :29:17.going to break me. In one year, in 2012, more than 300, 370, 380 times

:29:18. > :29:20.in one year, and I am talking about sometimes seven, eight, times in one

:29:21. > :29:25.day. I think at one stage you did make

:29:26. > :29:33.friends with ants in your cell. You know after the suicide, as they call

:29:34. > :29:39.it, a suicide, the three brothers who got killed, they isolated me by

:29:40. > :29:47.myself on Camp Echo, for two years in ten months I never left my cell.

:29:48. > :29:50.Never seen the outside, and I end up making friends with all kind of

:29:51. > :29:54.creature, one of them is the ants because they were beautiful. The way

:29:55. > :29:59.they were doing thing, I never knew how much time I can spend with them.

:30:00. > :30:01.I start watching them. I start learning the different ant, the

:30:02. > :30:06.colour, the different way of doing things and it was beautiful, because

:30:07. > :30:13.I learned so much and they became so friendly with me, that I believe I

:30:14. > :30:18.do believe that animals, insects, all kind of things they do realise

:30:19. > :30:23.us, they do know us, they knew me, as me. Because I used to feed them

:30:24. > :30:28.three times a day, put them the food. Certain time, and they don't

:30:29. > :30:33.bother me. And that is one of the things that kept me going, you know,

:30:34. > :30:38.that I had somebody to talk to, I had some people to watch, some

:30:39. > :30:43.insect to watch, to give me time, to you know... And there was a cat too

:30:44. > :30:47.you looked after. Yes. Princess, there is a reason I call her

:30:48. > :30:51.Princess, because you know, she doesn't just eat anything, and she

:30:52. > :30:55.doesn't even go straight to the food, she goes and smell it, you

:30:56. > :31:00.know and go round and she looks at you like, it is not a big deal, you

:31:01. > :31:06.are not doing something much for me. That is why we call her Princess and

:31:07. > :31:11.she, every time she and the other cats, we had another cat, and we

:31:12. > :31:14.have so many of them. They keep hunting them and killing them,

:31:15. > :31:19.because it brought so much joy to the brothers. We used to accuse sip

:31:20. > :31:24.-- sacrifice so much. A lot of brothers used to hide the food, the

:31:25. > :31:29.meat, the tuna, we used to get punish. If you feed them you get

:31:30. > :31:31.punished so the brothers used to go through a lot from the early days to

:31:32. > :31:45.feed them. And you read some birds as well? The

:31:46. > :31:51.birds is a whole different story because you had to break the food

:31:52. > :31:56.into pieces and mix it with jam. They love sweet stuff, I know it

:31:57. > :32:00.from my younger times, I used to have birds. We used to mix it with

:32:01. > :32:09.jam and honey and sneak it out sometimes. That is bringing some

:32:10. > :32:13.purpose to your daily life. You have to. Especially for somebody like me

:32:14. > :32:17.who has been isolated for all that time. You have to find someone,

:32:18. > :32:24.something to talk to and I used to do that with the animals. You

:32:25. > :32:31.referred to the deaths of three detainees. You said they took their

:32:32. > :32:37.own lives. That is what they said. For me they committed suicide or are

:32:38. > :32:41.they were killed, it is all the blame to the administration. What do

:32:42. > :32:46.you know about what happened that day? I was isolated at that time and

:32:47. > :32:50.I was in my cell and at 11 o'clock they came to me and they tied me to

:32:51. > :32:56.the chair and that is when they started with the torture. They

:32:57. > :32:59.started beating my legs, they started sticking their fingers in my

:33:00. > :33:07.eyes and all the pressure points and I am screaming. The next day I was

:33:08. > :33:15.sleeping and suddenly I see them running to me. For a whole month I

:33:16. > :33:19.was under a lot of pressure. Why would three detainees picked their

:33:20. > :33:24.lives at the same time on the same day? Honestly, I cannot give you a

:33:25. > :33:30.short answer. There is a reason behind a lot of things happening

:33:31. > :33:35.there. I promise you again when the time is right I will tell you the

:33:36. > :33:39.true story about these three boys. You were cleared for release twice

:33:40. > :33:45.when you were inside Guantanamo Bay, once and President Bush in 2007 and

:33:46. > :33:48.was under President Obama in 2009. How did you come to terms with the

:33:49. > :33:59.fact you had been cleared for release but it did not happen? The

:34:00. > :34:03.first time when I got cleared and they came to me to send me to Saudi

:34:04. > :34:10.Arabia, I felt really it was my fault refusing to go back to Saudi

:34:11. > :34:15.Arabia. I felt like it doesn't matter if really I care for my wife

:34:16. > :34:22.and my kids, I want to be with them, I have to sacrifice. I thought it

:34:23. > :34:27.would be like a short time, maybe a few months and then they would say,

:34:28. > :34:32.this guy is not going to Saudi Arabia, let's sent him to Britain. I

:34:33. > :34:39.wanted to be cleared. But then they came back again to me in 2009 and

:34:40. > :34:46.they told me, you are leaving again. I thought this time I am sure they

:34:47. > :34:52.want me to go to Saudi Arabia and I will just tell them I need to go

:34:53. > :34:56.back to my wife and my kids. Again I refused and again I felt like it

:34:57. > :35:00.would not be long because President Obama promised I would leave this

:35:01. > :35:05.place. I thought, it is not going to be long before I will be released.

:35:06. > :35:09.You could have been freed in Saudi Arabia and your wife and children

:35:10. > :35:14.could have joined you there. I never believed it would be easy for them

:35:15. > :35:19.to join me. Especially because my wife waited for me all these years.

:35:20. > :35:25.I felt obliged I was not going to go anywhere except to my wife and my

:35:26. > :35:30.kids. In the 14 years you were there, did they break your spirit?

:35:31. > :35:37.Break my spirit, no. Did I get tired or sick of what I was doing, or did

:35:38. > :35:44.I feel like I needed to stop? Yes. Many times I felt, that is it. Did

:35:45. > :35:48.you think you would get out? Yes, I had no doubt from day one I would

:35:49. > :35:56.get out because I have no doubt I did not do anything wrong to deserve

:35:57. > :36:01.this. I knew justice would prevail, years after years, justice would

:36:02. > :36:05.prevail. It took 27 years for Nelson Mandela to be out and be president

:36:06. > :36:13.of his country. It took me only 14 years to prove to the world I am

:36:14. > :36:21.this person. Will Guantanamo Bay ever close? Yes. When? When will

:36:22. > :36:26.that be? Very soon because that is what we are doing, telling the truth

:36:27. > :36:31.about one-time obey. We are telling the truth that these things are

:36:32. > :36:39.still happening. It is the way the story has to be told. One mode did

:36:40. > :36:46.not change, it went through phases. The more it goes, the more it is

:36:47. > :36:51.enhanced. The more they cover up, they do think secretly so people do

:36:52. > :36:58.not know what is happening. One example, the floodlight generators,

:36:59. > :37:04.running 24/7, which everybody can see because of the noise to the

:37:05. > :37:07.hidden noise, the white noise. You would hear that constant noise

:37:08. > :37:13.sitting in your cell which would drive you crazy. But you did not

:37:14. > :37:19.mind the loud music? Sometimes because they used to hate it when I

:37:20. > :37:27.used to sing to it. And what lyrics from Whitesnake a few consolation?

:37:28. > :37:35.The words made me feel like it was me again. The words are here I go

:37:36. > :37:39.again on my own, going down the only road I have ever known, like a

:37:40. > :37:45.drifter I was born to walk alone because I know what it means to walk

:37:46. > :37:50.alone and on this street of dreams here I go again. It is true because

:37:51. > :37:53.it was just dreams that I would be home one day, dreams that I would be

:37:54. > :37:58.free and dreams that Montana mode they would be closed. What do you

:37:59. > :38:03.say to those critics who even now say you must have been a security

:38:04. > :38:09.risk, that is why the Americans kept you locked up for so long? I am

:38:10. > :38:13.here. Everybody knows me now, everybody sees me walking in the

:38:14. > :38:19.street. I am sure time will prove I am not a risk. How much do you think

:38:20. > :38:24.what happened to you and others at Guantanamo Bay is responsible for

:38:25. > :38:30.the growth of Islamist extremism? I am sure there is a link. There is a

:38:31. > :38:35.reason why these people came about, whoever is doing these acts. We have

:38:36. > :38:40.to understand that is a reason and the great reason all agree on is

:38:41. > :38:43.injustice, so injustice breeds all this anger and anger breeds all

:38:44. > :38:50.these horrible things that happened after. Well part of your pursuit of

:38:51. > :38:54.justice be pursuing legal action against the British Government? No.

:38:55. > :39:03.You are not going to take legal action? No, not at all. Why not?

:39:04. > :39:07.Because I do not believe the court will solve this problem, I do not

:39:08. > :39:11.believe it will bring justice because of what happened in the

:39:12. > :39:17.past. You are not interested in compensation? I cannot talk about it

:39:18. > :39:22.for many reasons and that is beside the point. I do not want to

:39:23. > :39:26.prosecute anybody, I do not want anybody to be asked about what his

:39:27. > :39:33.role in the past was, I'd just want people to tell the truth. I am doing

:39:34. > :39:38.it right now. We can understand what happened and stop it from happening

:39:39. > :39:42.again. Let me tell the world the truth about Guantanamo Bay, let the

:39:43. > :39:46.world know about what is happening because the world has the right

:39:47. > :39:53.understand what is happening at this time. I hope I did something and

:39:54. > :39:57.will carry on doing it and God willing I will close that place, I

:39:58. > :40:03.will do my best to close that place. I am willing to go back. If they

:40:04. > :40:06.need me to go back, to help close that place, I will go back. Thank

:40:07. > :40:09.you very much. You are welcome. You can watch the full interview

:40:10. > :40:12.on our programme page The Foreign Office says: The UK

:40:13. > :40:16.government stands firmly against torture and cruel,

:40:17. > :40:18.inhumane and degrading The US Dept of Defense say

:40:19. > :40:46.they do not tolerate the abuse of detainees and: All credible

:40:47. > :40:48.allegations of abuse are thoroughly investigated, and appropriate

:40:49. > :40:50.disciplinary action is taken when those allegations

:40:51. > :41:17.are substantiated. Lucy has tweeted to say, a harrowing

:41:18. > :41:21.interview. Knowles says the two terrorists were the captors of

:41:22. > :41:27.Shaker Aamer. If there was a case, he should have been tried. E-mail

:41:28. > :41:32.from Bob, none of us know if he is guilty or innocent, but after 14

:41:33. > :41:35.years without charge, he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

:41:36. > :41:37.he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

:41:38. > :41:39.Our Home Affairs correspondent Dominic Casciani has been

:41:40. > :41:48.Will the British Government be worried about these claims that a

:41:49. > :41:54.British intelligence officer witnessed his interrogation? They

:41:55. > :41:59.already knew about these allegations and they had been known about for

:42:00. > :42:04.some time. It is interesting to hear him talking about the details by the

:42:05. > :42:07.first time. Let's go back to the statement from the British

:42:08. > :42:11.Government where it says the UK stands firmly against torture and

:42:12. > :42:15.cruel and inhumane and degrading treatment. The statement does not

:42:16. > :42:22.say whether or not agents of the state in that period after 9/11 got

:42:23. > :42:26.mixed up in the wrongdoing by other parties, liaison partners, their

:42:27. > :42:31.international partners in the fight against terrorism. This is the big

:42:32. > :42:37.unanswered question at the heart of so many detainees are' stories.

:42:38. > :42:42.There is evidence that MI5 or MI6 officers were present or knew about

:42:43. > :42:46.the torture or abuse of detainees and for some reason they were not

:42:47. > :42:51.quite sure what to do when they came across this. It was in 2010 when the

:42:52. > :42:54.government fully published the guidance it gives to intelligence

:42:55. > :43:00.officials about what to do when they come up against torture. What was

:43:01. > :43:05.going on after 9/11 is the big question. Will we get to the bottom

:43:06. > :43:09.of it? We do not quite know. The government tried to launch a

:43:10. > :43:15.detainee inquiry some years ago to look into these grave allegations

:43:16. > :43:21.amongst all the detainees after 9/11. That was abandoned. The

:43:22. > :43:26.security and intelligence committee is supposedly taking that work on

:43:27. > :43:30.and its new chair has said that he personally wants to talk to Shaker

:43:31. > :43:34.Aamer and take his evidence about what happened. But there are a lot

:43:35. > :43:38.of people who are very suspicious about whether that committee can get

:43:39. > :43:41.to the truth and that is why this is such a big issue for the government

:43:42. > :43:49.Thank you for all your contributions this morning.