:00:00. > :00:08.In this interview there is some graphic detail of his alleged abuse.
:00:09. > :00:17.Knowing that I am coming back to my family, it was hard
:00:18. > :00:23.to believe, sitting in that aeroplane, thinking that definitely
:00:24. > :00:34.thinking how I'm going to face it, how I am going to be with the kids.
:00:35. > :00:37.And seeing your wife and your children, including your youngest,
:00:38. > :00:40.who was born on the day you were transferred
:00:41. > :00:48.to Guantanamo Bay, give us an insight into that moment.
:00:49. > :00:51.I knew I was going to fall down and start crying.
:00:52. > :00:54.So I thought, it's best for me just to go with my wife.
:00:55. > :00:56.My wife was going to guide me through it.
:00:57. > :01:00.I thought, let me just see her, by herself.
:01:01. > :01:01.Let her be comfortable again with me,
:01:02. > :01:04.knowing what happened, how it happened.
:01:05. > :01:08.I wanted to assure her I did not neglect her, I did not let her go.
:01:09. > :01:24.She was crying and then I started crying.
:01:25. > :01:27.And then your children, tell us about that.
:01:28. > :01:34.I needed to know who they are, how they think, how they do things,
:01:35. > :01:39.Did they run to you, did they hug you?
:01:40. > :01:50.I was the one that was running to them.
:01:51. > :02:05.Even though it has been a month and a little bit more,
:02:06. > :02:07.but things change a little bit and they
:02:08. > :02:10.start to realise that their dad loves them so much and he's trying
:02:11. > :02:15.to do everything to comfort them, to be there for them.
:02:16. > :02:18.And they are coming along, little by little.
:02:19. > :02:20.What is it you are enjoying most about
:02:21. > :02:33.Just to wake up and know that nobody is going to tell you what to do
:02:34. > :02:37.Just to wake up without knowing you're going to be shackled,
:02:38. > :02:46.I want to go back to 2001, if that's OK.
:02:47. > :02:54.After living in London and marrying a British woman,
:02:55. > :02:55.you decided to move to Afghanistan in 2001.
:02:56. > :02:57.With your wife, who was pregnant I think,
:02:58. > :03:06.I lived in this place for five years before I went to Afghanistan.
:03:07. > :03:11.Four out of the five years I was homeless.
:03:12. > :03:19.At the same time, the way my wife appeared, wearing the full niqab,
:03:20. > :03:28.the way I was, wearing an Islamic dress and walking around,
:03:29. > :03:30.you can see this guy is a very practising Muslim.
:03:31. > :03:34.We were led to believe that you moved to Afghanistan
:03:35. > :03:41.to work for a charity, is that not accurate?
:03:42. > :03:43.It is not an official charity, as documented.
:03:44. > :03:45.It was our own way of helping that society.
:03:46. > :03:49.Sometime before Christmas you were captured by
:03:50. > :03:51.the Northern Alliance, a group of fighters
:03:52. > :03:56.They wanted me to say one thing and they would let me go.
:03:57. > :04:04.That I worked with Osama Bin Laden and I was with Al-Qaeda.
:04:05. > :04:19.You know, I wish I could film that film
:04:20. > :04:22.Two days later, you were in American custody.
:04:23. > :04:24.You were taken to Bagram airfield, and I think,
:04:25. > :04:26.initially, you expected that the Americans would
:04:27. > :04:32.As soon as you arrived, you say abuse by US soldiers began.
:04:33. > :04:36.For example, you were taken to a concrete room and ordered
:04:37. > :04:45.They ordered me to strip naked in front of a lot of men and women,
:04:46. > :04:50.and soldiers, and it was shocking for me, it was shocking.
:04:51. > :04:53.But actually they were doing it for the sake of the humiliation,
:04:54. > :04:58.Alongside humiliation, you say there was beating
:04:59. > :05:06.That is when somebody grabbed my head and smacked it
:05:07. > :05:13.And all what I am trying to do is resist, hitting back,
:05:14. > :05:19.My head was smacking the wall, back-and-forth, and then
:05:20. > :05:28.Just my eyes are closed and, I'm you know, thinking,
:05:29. > :05:35.Because you know, all that, my vision, I am sure is -
:05:36. > :05:39.I can't even see what is going on, because everything in my mind
:05:40. > :05:41.is running around, and as soon as I opened my eyes there
:05:42. > :05:50.Just pain, pain after pain, I just, you know...
:05:51. > :05:53.All I am trying to do is protect my head and trying
:05:54. > :06:04.It is not like you can even think about it.
:06:05. > :06:07.You know, all what you, I think all what you can think
:06:08. > :06:09.about is how to save your head from blowing up.
:06:10. > :06:12.And they sat me down, the wall behind me, and they start
:06:13. > :06:16.talking to me, all of them at the same time.
:06:17. > :06:24.One is an English accent, another with a Russian accent,
:06:25. > :06:28.and two guys, the one who is the American,
:06:29. > :06:32.he called himself Tony, and the other one is John.
:06:33. > :06:35.Are you adamant that there was an English officer,
:06:36. > :06:38.intelligence officer, agent in that room, when your head
:06:39. > :06:47.I have no doubt he is an Englishman, because of the way he spoke,
:06:48. > :06:50.the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting far away,
:06:51. > :06:52.looking at me, you know, and because the day before,
:06:53. > :06:59."I'm with the MI5 intelligence service and I came to ask
:07:00. > :07:08.So I have no doubt he was an Englishman.
:07:09. > :07:11.Did this English intelligence officer take part in
:07:12. > :07:16.Did he make any attempt to stop what was happening to you?
:07:17. > :07:27.If what you have said is true, then he was complicit.
:07:28. > :07:37.Because I hear it from others, not from him, not from John,
:07:38. > :07:40.himself, but I hear it from others, that,
:07:41. > :07:43."Listen, this is all totally Americans."
:07:44. > :07:44.But you said he could have intervened.
:07:45. > :07:56.Do you believe that the then British Government,
:07:57. > :07:57.they knew that people like you were allegedly
:07:58. > :08:01.I do not want to say the Government, here.
:08:02. > :08:04.I don't think it is to do with the Government,
:08:05. > :08:05.as much as the intelligence services.
:08:06. > :08:07.Which is totally, for me, different than Government.
:08:08. > :08:10.Would you like to see the then Prime Minister Tony Blair
:08:11. > :08:12.and the then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw held to account
:08:13. > :08:18.for what you say happened to you at that time?
:08:19. > :08:21.The only thing I would like to happen was for Tony Blair
:08:22. > :08:24.and whoever was in the government at that time to tell the truth.
:08:25. > :08:28.Do you believe Tony Blair knew what was going on at Bagram
:08:29. > :08:40.If these guys at the head of state do not know,
:08:41. > :08:43.After Bagram, you were moved to Kandahar.
:08:44. > :08:59.First of all, when I get to Kandahar and they have something
:09:00. > :09:02.called a welcoming party, where they really beat you up.
:09:03. > :09:07.Yes, beating up, beating up with M16s, jumping on your back,
:09:08. > :09:19.That is one of the times when I felt like I'm
:09:20. > :09:26.not going to live that night, I'm not going to survive that night.
:09:27. > :09:30.Praying, this is my last few minutes.
:09:31. > :09:42.There were threats against your family at that time.
:09:43. > :09:47.One particular interrogator threatened to sexually
:09:48. > :09:53.Yes, that was the hardest thing, the hardest thing I ever heard.
:09:54. > :10:07.It was the worst experience I ever had in my life.
:10:08. > :10:11.That is the time he told me, "Your wife and your daughter
:10:12. > :10:15.is with us, and if you do not start talking, we will rape your daughter
:10:16. > :10:21.and you will hear her crying, Daddy, Daddy".
:10:22. > :10:29.It was worse than the beating, worse than everything,
:10:30. > :10:48.For three or four days I did not say a word.
:10:49. > :10:54.You don't know, you want to hit him, you hate him, but I thought, I will
:10:55. > :10:57.die before it ends. Did you genuinely believe
:10:58. > :11:00.they had your wife and daughter? Yes, I did not know when I separated
:11:01. > :11:04.from my wife if she was safe Were British officers
:11:05. > :11:17.at Kandahar as well? Did he take part
:11:18. > :11:30.in anything? I would like to read a list
:11:31. > :11:43.of claims that the US Department It comes from the official defence
:11:44. > :11:50.file from 2007. In 2007 it concluded you were high
:11:51. > :11:59.risk and were likely to pose None of the allegations are true
:12:00. > :12:05.that they have been saying about me. You were an Al-Qaeda
:12:06. > :12:06.operative, they say? Prove anything that you say is true,
:12:07. > :12:12.prove it to the world. "You held a senior position
:12:13. > :12:14.in a UK-based Al-Qaeda cell." You were a close associate
:12:15. > :12:18.of Osama Bin Laden. Where is the British
:12:19. > :12:29.intelligence at that time? Five years I have been
:12:30. > :12:32.living in this country, how come an operative
:12:33. > :12:37.for Osama Bin Laden? Working in London and they didn't
:12:38. > :12:39.even know about it? If the British say otherwise,
:12:40. > :12:45.why didn't you give it to the Americans to prove
:12:46. > :12:50.I was communicating with him. "You were an Al-Qaeda recruiter,
:12:51. > :12:58.finance and facilitator With a history of participating in
:12:59. > :13:05.jihadist,? You indicated your willingness
:13:06. > :13:09.to become a martyr and served as a sub-command and in
:13:10. > :13:11.the mountains in Afghanistan. In Bosnia in the mid-90s you met
:13:12. > :13:25.Babar Ahmed, who was later sentenced in the US for being behind a website
:13:26. > :13:27.supporting terrorism. In fact I was with him last night,
:13:28. > :13:34.and I saw him after 15 years. We were all doing what everybody
:13:35. > :13:39.was proud at that time, You lived in London with the only
:13:40. > :13:47.terrorist to be convicted I met a lot of people,
:13:48. > :14:04.but it does not make me a bad guy. You had links to well-known British
:14:05. > :14:11.jihadis like Abu Qatada I would be lying
:14:12. > :14:18.if I say I knew him. I know of him because
:14:19. > :14:24.he was in the mosque. Abu Qatada used
:14:25. > :14:26.to pray in his place. I used to sit and listen
:14:27. > :14:29.to his speeches and I know he is not He is not somebody horrible
:14:30. > :14:37.as they say he is. Described by Spanish judge
:14:38. > :14:39.as Osama Bin Laden's right-hand According to my own knowledge,
:14:40. > :14:46.he had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden,
:14:47. > :14:49.and he never preached about him in his circles and he never
:14:50. > :14:51.encouraged anyone to go to One final one from that department
:14:52. > :14:58.file, you admitted you associated He attempted to put explosives
:14:59. > :15:09.in a shoe and get on a plane. I do not know anything
:15:10. > :15:20.about him, who is he? On Valentine's Day, you were
:15:21. > :15:24.transferred to Guantanamo Bay, you didn't know it at the time, but that
:15:25. > :15:30.is when your son was born. Did you have any idea what to expect?
:15:31. > :15:33.I just have a general idea, but I was shocked.
:15:34. > :15:35.Not the first day, the first second I arrived.
:15:36. > :15:37.The first thing they tell you when they
:15:38. > :15:39.drag you, they don't allow you to walk, they drag
:15:40. > :15:43.They drag you, pulling you, and your feet hit the stairs,
:15:44. > :15:46.and all that, and on the bus, and they said "This is the end,
:15:47. > :15:49.this is the end of your life, you will never leave
:15:50. > :15:53.And then they tie you to the bus and the ground with the chain
:15:54. > :15:56.and your hands, they tie you, with your legs, and then
:15:57. > :15:58.they start hitting you, left and right.
:15:59. > :16:06.Even though it was in that dark time, in that dark moment of getting
:16:07. > :16:12.You know, the closest thing for my mind is the Harry
:16:13. > :16:18.They have an island which says Azkaban.
:16:19. > :16:21.Where there is no happiness, they just suck all your
:16:22. > :16:29.You don't have no feeling any more, and truly, that is how I felt
:16:30. > :16:32.all the time, this is Azkaban, this is not where this
:16:33. > :16:39.That is what they tried, you know, they want to make you feelingness,
:16:40. > :16:42.That is what they tried, you know, they want to make you feelingless,
:16:43. > :16:44.they want to deprive you from everything,
:16:45. > :16:49.In terms of the interrogation you received at Guantanamo Bay,
:16:50. > :16:53.They are not looking for answers, they are just
:16:54. > :16:55.looking to blame you on something regardless, if you are telling
:16:56. > :16:59.In Guantanamo they were more careful.
:17:00. > :17:02.It is more discreet, it is more, you know,
:17:03. > :17:09.all the method of the torture in Guantanamo is like I told
:17:10. > :17:15.You said in a statement in 2013 that you were visited three times
:17:16. > :17:16.in Guantanamo Bay by British intelligence officers.
:17:17. > :17:20.Were they involved while the interrogations were going on?
:17:21. > :17:24.What did they see, of the way you were treated?
:17:25. > :17:27.They just know about it, as I told you last time,
:17:28. > :17:32.just, about the guy whose name was John,
:17:33. > :17:35.and Tony, he told me, "I know what they are doing to you.
:17:36. > :17:40.But I promise you one thing, when you
:17:41. > :17:42.come back to England, you will know we are not like them."
:17:43. > :17:46.Which made me feel so good, so happy.
:17:47. > :17:49.And that was the first time, you know, somebody
:17:50. > :17:53.really, I thought was sympathising with me, because the other two
:17:54. > :17:56.times, they were just coming to interrogate me.
:17:57. > :17:59.You have described torture as a way of life, 24/7,
:18:00. > :18:01.a world of mental and physical destruction.
:18:02. > :18:09.Explain what forced cell extraction involved.
:18:10. > :18:13.by psychologists, people, they know how
:18:14. > :18:17.to manipulate you, how to make you get scared,
:18:18. > :18:20.so the guard comes and ask you for a very little thing,
:18:21. > :18:23.like a pack of salt he didn't find in the
:18:24. > :18:36.Like I told you, they start coming, there is like six
:18:37. > :18:41.guards, and you will find yourself 15, 17 people coming towards you,
:18:42. > :18:45.while all of these guards from the beginning of the block,
:18:46. > :18:50.marching with big, you know, heavy steps, and you would be
:18:51. > :19:00.waiting, "Oh my God", and everybody is shouting
:19:01. > :19:03.they come in front of the door and they start
:19:04. > :19:06.shouting "Go down, put your face on the floor, put your hands behind
:19:07. > :19:09.you", things like that, because your head has to be
:19:10. > :19:12.You have to stick your head with your
:19:13. > :19:25.own self in the toilet to let them in.
:19:26. > :19:27.And they won't even accept your hands to be shackled.
:19:28. > :19:29.So they spray you, and your face, and then
:19:30. > :19:33.they come with the shields so fast, and they just mash you in your face,
:19:34. > :19:36.and they push you down, and the other guards they pull
:19:37. > :19:40.throw you on the floor, try to pin you down
:19:41. > :19:45.They tie you from the back and they put
:19:46. > :19:47.your legs and push against your back.
:19:48. > :19:49.Until they shackle you up and they throw
:19:50. > :19:52.you outside on the floor, which is a very dirty floor,
:19:53. > :19:54.and they search you and they keep you in that
:19:55. > :19:58.Depends how much they want to put you under a lot of pain.
:19:59. > :20:02.After that, they put you with nothing, you can be
:20:03. > :20:04.sleeping with nothing for days and days and days.
:20:05. > :20:16.In one year, in 2012, more than 300, 370, 380 times
:20:17. > :20:19.in one year, and I am talking about sometimes seven,
:20:20. > :20:35.I think at one stage you did make friends with ants in your cell.
:20:36. > :20:38.For two years and ten months I never left my cell.
:20:39. > :20:40.Never seen the outside, and I end up making friends
:20:41. > :20:46.One of them is the ants, because they were beautiful.
:20:47. > :20:49.The way they were doing things, I never knew
:20:50. > :20:54.I start learning the different ants, the colours, the different way
:20:55. > :20:56.of doing things and it was beautiful, because
:20:57. > :21:02.I learned so much and they became so friendly with me,
:21:03. > :21:05.And that is one of the things that kept me going, you know,
:21:06. > :21:08.that I had somebody to talk to, I had some people to watch,
:21:09. > :21:10.some insect to watch, to give me time, to
:21:11. > :21:32.Did they ever break your spirit? Spirit? No. Did I ever think, that
:21:33. > :21:37.is it? Yes. Did you think you would get out? I had no doubt, from day
:21:38. > :21:41.one. I will be out. Because I had no doubt that I did nothing wrong to
:21:42. > :21:45.deserve what happened. I knew that justice would prevail. After years
:21:46. > :21:50.and years, justice will prevail. It took 27 years with Nelson Mandela to
:21:51. > :21:54.get out, and to be the President of his country. It took me only 14
:21:55. > :21:59.years to prove to the world that I am a good person and they are the
:22:00. > :22:05.bad people. Will Guantanamo Bay ever close, in your opinion? Yes. When?
:22:06. > :22:12.When the world knows the truth about it. When will that be? Very soon. Is
:22:13. > :22:16.that not what we are doing? Telling the truth, telling the world what is
:22:17. > :22:20.happening in Guantanamo, 12, 13 years ago and still happening? It is
:22:21. > :22:23.still open. It is the way the story has been told. People have to
:22:24. > :22:28.understand that Guantanamo did not change. It just went through phases.
:22:29. > :22:33.The more it goes, it is more enhanced. The more they cover it up,
:22:34. > :22:37.the more they do their thing and secretly, so nobody knows exactly
:22:38. > :22:42.what is happening. What do you say to the critics who, even now, say
:22:43. > :22:49.you must have been a security risk, that is why the Americans kept you
:22:50. > :22:52.locked up for so long? I'm here. Everybody knows me now, everybody
:22:53. > :22:57.sees me walking in the street. I am sure time will prove I am not a
:22:58. > :23:00.risk. How much do you think what happened to you and others in
:23:01. > :23:06.Guantanamo Bay is responsible for the growth of Islamist extremism? I
:23:07. > :23:09.am sure there is a link. We have to understand there is a reason why it
:23:10. > :23:14.happens. There is a reason why these people came about, whoever is doing
:23:15. > :23:18.these acts. We have to understand there is a reason. The great reason
:23:19. > :23:23.we all agree on is injustice. So, injustice breeds all of this anger.
:23:24. > :23:28.The anger breeds all of this horrible things that happen after.
:23:29. > :23:33.Will part of your pursuit of justice be pursuing legal action against the
:23:34. > :23:43.British government? No. You're not going to take legal action? Not at
:23:44. > :23:46.all. Not at all? Why not? Because I don't believe the court will solve
:23:47. > :23:51.this problem. I don't believe it will bring justice, because of what
:23:52. > :23:54.happened in the past. You are not interested in compensation? The
:23:55. > :24:01.compensation issue, really, I can't talk about it for many reasons. That
:24:02. > :24:04.is beside the point, I do not want to prosecute anybody, I do not want
:24:05. > :24:09.anybody to be, you know, asked about what his role was in the past, I
:24:10. > :24:14.just want people to tell the truth. I am doing it right now. So we can
:24:15. > :24:19.really understand what happened and stop it from happening again. I need
:24:20. > :24:22.you to, please, let me tell the world the truth about Guantanamo,
:24:23. > :24:25.let them know exactly what is happening. The world has the right
:24:26. > :24:30.to understand what is happening at this time. I hope that I did
:24:31. > :24:37.something, and I am still going to carry on doing it, until, God
:24:38. > :24:43.willing, I will close that place. I will do my best. If they need me to
:24:44. > :24:50.go back, to help them to close that place, by Allah, I will go back.
:24:51. > :24:55.Thank you very much. You can watch the full interview on our programme
:24:56. > :25:00.page. In response to those allegations, the Foreign Office say
:25:01. > :25:03.the UK Government stands firmly against torture and cruel, inhumane
:25:04. > :25:07.and degrading treatment or punishment. We do not participate
:25:08. > :25:11.in, solicit, encourage or condone the use of torture or cruel,
:25:12. > :25:15.inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment for any purpose, neither
:25:16. > :25:20.does the UK make use of any so-called enhanced interrogation
:25:21. > :25:23.techniques. We have consistently made clear our absolute opposition
:25:24. > :25:29.to such behaviour and our determination to combat it wherever
:25:30. > :25:59.and whenever it occurs. The US Department of defence told us:
:26:00. > :26:04.Has been cold and snowy across the North of Scotland for the last 24
:26:05. > :26:05.hours. The cold weather