17/12/2015

:00:00. > :00:09.Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling,

:00:10. > :00:15.David Cameron goes to Brussels to have his first substantial talks

:00:16. > :00:18.with other European Union leaders about his demands for changes in

:00:19. > :00:25.These talks come ahead of a referendum which will take

:00:26. > :00:28.place at some point next year in which Britain will decide

:00:29. > :00:34.I'm Alan Johnson and I'm fronting the Labour campaign

:00:35. > :00:40.to stay in the EU - business will lose out if we leave

:00:41. > :00:44.I'm Suzanne Evans - the deputy leader of UKIP.

:00:45. > :00:48.I want out of Europe because it is too expensive.

:00:49. > :00:53.We'll debate the issue with Alan, Suzanne and our audience.

:00:54. > :00:57.Why lifestyle, not luck is the biggest cause of cancer -

:00:58. > :01:02.Plus - what happens when you find out your marriage ceremony

:01:03. > :01:22.Calls to make wedding laws less complicated.

:01:23. > :01:29.We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:01:30. > :01:31.As always we'll keep you across the latest breaking

:01:32. > :01:33.and developing stories right across the morning.

:01:34. > :01:35.Your contributions are really welcome throughout the programme.

:01:36. > :01:37.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:01:38. > :01:39.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:01:40. > :01:43.you are - via the BBC news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria -

:01:44. > :01:46.and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

:01:47. > :01:50.by going to add topics and searching "Victoria Derbyshire".

:01:51. > :01:53.David Cameron is in Brussels today, but it's not for some last minute

:01:54. > :01:59.Instead he's over there to persuade other European leaders

:02:00. > :02:02.to back his plan for reforming Britain's relationship

:02:03. > :02:06.with the other 27 European Union countries, ahead of a referendum

:02:07. > :02:11.in which voters in Britain will decide to stay or leave the EU.

:02:12. > :02:14.That vote is expected to happen some time next year.

:02:15. > :02:17.Politicians have been arguing about the benefits of staying

:02:18. > :02:24.We've asked two of them, Ukip's Suzanne Evans

:02:25. > :02:27.and Labour's Alan Johnson, to make us a film setting out either

:02:28. > :02:34.We will bring you those shortly but first lets take a look

:02:35. > :02:43.He says he wants the UK to remain in a reformed EU but "rules nothing

:02:44. > :02:46.out" if his demands are turned down let's take a closer look

:02:47. > :02:50.at what he wants to change: He wants Britain to be able to opt out

:02:51. > :02:55.from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union"

:02:56. > :03:04.That means restricting access to certain work

:03:05. > :03:07.until they've lived here for four years.

:03:08. > :03:15.for national parliaments to block EU legislation.

:03:16. > :03:21.explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the EU -

:03:22. > :03:24.that's to make sure countries like England using the pound -

:03:25. > :03:28.So when will the EU referendum happen and we get to vote

:03:29. > :03:34.The one thing we know for sure is that Prime Minister has said it

:03:35. > :03:39.But why not just hold the referendum now?

:03:40. > :03:42.Well, In a letter this week to all member states -

:03:43. > :03:45.the President of the European Council - Donald Tusk -

:03:46. > :03:49.said the EU is still "far from agreement" on David Cameron's

:03:50. > :03:52.reforms but that there had been "significant

:03:53. > :04:00.He said "During dinner we will discuss the UK issue,

:04:01. > :04:03.to see if we can pave the way for an agreement in February."

:04:04. > :04:06.So all 28 leaders will be meeting for dinner tonight ,

:04:07. > :04:14.This map from - Open Europe, a pro-EU reform think-tank shows how

:04:15. > :04:19.Poland is one country who say they are up for supporting some

:04:20. > :04:23.of the demands - but will not accept withholding migrants' benefits

:04:24. > :04:25.as this would affect hundreds of thousands of Poles living

:04:26. > :04:35.The largest Eurozone countries - Germany, France and Italy -

:04:36. > :04:38.all agree with the principle on euro "outs" but the devil will be

:04:39. > :04:42.And it's thought Denmark and Ireland will be the most helpful countries

:04:43. > :04:45.throughout the renegotiation, as they would be the most negatively

:04:46. > :04:50.At the opposite end, Belgium, Luxembourg and Spain could be among

:04:51. > :04:56.These countries continue to have a particularly strong

:04:57. > :04:59.emotional attachment to European integration.

:05:00. > :05:01.So the first of our politician's films this morning.

:05:02. > :05:05.Labour MP Alan Johnson; he's fronting Labour's campaign to stay

:05:06. > :05:23.Let's take a look at why he thinks it's good for Britain to stay in.

:05:24. > :05:26.Organised crime in this country, because they would be

:05:27. > :05:28.beyond the reach of the European arrest

:05:29. > :05:32.Protection for workers, like right to paid holidays,

:05:33. > :05:36.paternity leave, maternity leave removed.

:05:37. > :05:39.Britain humiliatingly weea at the negotiating table with other

:05:40. > :05:46.Leaving the EU would be a catastrophe.

:05:47. > :05:49.That is why this is the most crucial political

:05:50. > :05:59.I'm Alan Johnson, Labour member of Parliament

:06:00. > :06:04.I'm Leading Labour In For Britain, the Labour Party campaign

:06:05. > :06:07.for Britain to remain in the European Union.

:06:08. > :06:10.I've been fortunate enough to be minister

:06:11. > :06:12.in charge of a lot of different government departments

:06:13. > :06:17.From welfare to education, from jobs to health,

:06:18. > :06:20.from immigration to the security of our country.

:06:21. > :06:25.I dealt with a huge variety of issues in my

:06:26. > :06:30.time as a minister and this will be the battle ground for the debate

:06:31. > :06:45.over whether Britain should be in or out of the European Union.

:06:46. > :06:47.I'm making this film to tell you why I

:06:48. > :06:50.think Britain should remain in the European Union.

:06:51. > :06:56.Firstly because it's my constituency, but,

:06:57. > :07:02.perhaps more importantly, it is Britain's

:07:03. > :07:36.Britain's windy coastlines mean the UK market is the biggest

:07:37. > :07:42.The German company Siemens, they looked at 104 different

:07:43. > :07:46.locations in northern Europe and decided to locate the final

:07:47. > :07:48.assembly of these huge turbines, going out

:07:49. > :07:52.into these three big offshore wind farms in the North Sea,

:07:53. > :07:58.By September of next year, this will be a huge manufacturing

:07:59. > :08:02.1000 jobs, putting Britain and Hull at the heart of the renewable

:08:03. > :08:16.I'm here to talk to Finbarr Dowling, who is the project director

:08:17. > :08:24.What effect does Europe have on your plans here?

:08:25. > :08:28.I guess we can't absolutely say, because nobody knows

:08:29. > :08:32.What we do know is what Europe looks like now.

:08:33. > :08:36.Of course there could be some reforms.

:08:37. > :08:39.But, you know, we know where we stand today.

:08:40. > :08:45.This is the single biggest investment Siemens is making

:08:46. > :08:52.What you want, when you're making an investment that large,

:08:53. > :08:55.?310 million going in here, you want to be able

:08:56. > :08:58.to and understand what is going to happen

:08:59. > :09:03.This isn't something you rock up and do for three or four

:09:04. > :09:13.I've come here to the Inspired Cafe in Hull to meet Joanna,

:09:14. > :09:16.who has come to this country from Poland and who has got

:09:17. > :09:23.You've come to work in Britain from Poland, because Britain

:09:24. > :09:32.Are you settled now for good in Britain?

:09:33. > :09:39.Some of the debate but European Union is about

:09:40. > :09:47.free movement and about people coming here from other countries,

:09:48. > :09:50.and are concerned that they are taking jobs that local

:09:51. > :09:53.Do you ever come across that argument?

:09:54. > :09:59.I think if people really want to find a job, they will find

:10:00. > :10:03.It's not true that immigrants take the jobs.

:10:04. > :10:06.Well, we don't want to lose you from Hull,

:10:07. > :10:17.Our cash might not be affected by Europe, but many things are.

:10:18. > :10:19.The European Union is a market, a huge market.

:10:20. > :10:22.It is a market with rules, rules to govern,

:10:23. > :10:27.for instance, how the pigs that made the sausages are reared,

:10:28. > :10:31.how much meat is actually in these sausages,

:10:32. > :10:34.the seeds, the pesticides used to grow these vegetables.

:10:35. > :10:37.There are standards that every European

:10:38. > :10:47.So, the Inspired Cafe also has a job club.

:10:48. > :10:51.I'm here with Denise, Leigh and Richard.

:10:52. > :10:54.We're debating about the European Union.

:10:55. > :10:57.What about people coming up here from Eastern Europe?

:10:58. > :11:05.At the end of the day, I think we are reading too much

:11:06. > :11:08.into the immigrants which are coming over.

:11:09. > :11:18.Immigrants having coming into this country since the year dot.

:11:19. > :11:21.Because there is a big thing with, maybe, racism, I don't have that,

:11:22. > :11:23.I believe it's nice if they would learn a little here,

:11:24. > :11:25.please and thank you is, just integrate, really.

:11:26. > :11:28.There are 2 million Brits living and working in the European Union.

:11:29. > :11:35.What about you, Leigh, is that an issue for you?

:11:36. > :11:38.People want to come here and where, they can

:11:39. > :11:42.But I think Britain, the UK as a whole, are a bit

:11:43. > :11:47.People come here because it is too easy and they come here

:11:48. > :11:51.It's normally for benefits and housing.

:11:52. > :11:54.They shouldn't be coming here just for benefits?

:11:55. > :11:57.There's not a lot of evidence that many people are,

:11:58. > :12:02.These are the arguments you're going to

:12:03. > :12:06.Because it's going to be your decision and it's one

:12:07. > :12:11.This summer, British police officers were sent to Calais,

:12:12. > :12:13.the most vulnerable entry point to Britain, to help deal

:12:14. > :12:17.with a refugee and migrant crisis by working in a joint command centre

:12:18. > :12:23.It's not just the migrant crisis that police in Europe work

:12:24. > :12:28.I think Britain is safer in Europe because it helps our police forces

:12:29. > :12:30.to work together, sharing information on joint operations.

:12:31. > :12:34.I'm here to meet a police officer in Birmingham who is doing exactly

:12:35. > :12:43.Paul, here we are at the heart of Trivium.

:12:44. > :12:49.What we have here is the operation centre for the whole

:12:50. > :12:53.For the first time, Trivium 5 is a pan-European

:12:54. > :13:02.We are working with colleagues from a different

:13:03. > :13:04.We are working with colleagues from eight different

:13:05. > :13:09.In addition to this setup, we have one with our

:13:10. > :13:11.colleagues from Europol in the Hague.

:13:12. > :13:13.Already, with the first 48 hours of this operation,

:13:14. > :13:15.we have executed 25 European arrest warrants.

:13:16. > :13:18.The European arrest warrant is issued only for serious

:13:19. > :13:22.If they are wanted for a serious offence over there, they can

:13:23. > :13:24.issue a warrant and we can arrest them in the UK,

:13:25. > :13:29.If we were outside of Europe, it's very doubtful whether

:13:30. > :13:37.You have to go through extradition, that takes a lot of time.

:13:38. > :13:39.The whole idea is to speed up the process.

:13:40. > :13:43.Britain in the European Union is a stronger

:13:44. > :13:45.Britain, a safer Britain, a more prosperous Britain.

:13:46. > :13:49.If we rip ourselves away from the European

:13:50. > :13:52.Union, we'll be isolated, on our continent and in the world.

:13:53. > :13:57.Later we'll be hearing from Suzanne Evans, the Deputy Chair

:13:58. > :14:00.of Ukip, who says we should leave the EU.

:14:01. > :14:03.We'll also be joined by a group of people to debate the UK

:14:04. > :14:05.in Europe; that's just after 10 o'clock.

:14:06. > :14:08.And of course you can watch Alan and Suzanne's film on our programme

:14:09. > :14:18.Thanks for joining us today; still to come.

:14:19. > :14:24.Some breaking news from the High Court. Former paratroopers who have

:14:25. > :14:27.been facing questioning over Bloody Sunday have won their High Court

:14:28. > :14:32.battle against being detained and transferred to Northern Ireland for

:14:33. > :14:34.interview by police. The ex-soldiers sought a judicial review against the

:14:35. > :14:37.Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who

:14:38. > :14:41.wanted them brought back to Northern Ireland for an investigation into

:14:42. > :14:46.whether criminal offences may have been committed by soldiers who used

:14:47. > :14:51.Lethal Force on Bloody Sunday in 1972. They were fighting against

:14:52. > :14:56.that, it was a case describe bid the Lord Chief Justice as a matter of

:14:57. > :14:58.great public interest. They have won their High Court battle against

:14:59. > :15:00.being detained and transferred to Northern Ireland over that. We'll

:15:01. > :15:04.hear more later. Thanks for joining us

:15:05. > :15:21.today - still to come: Should the law be changed so that

:15:22. > :15:25.unconventional ceremonies like this are legally binding? We will speak

:15:26. > :15:31.to one woman who's marriage ceremony fell outside the law. And women's

:15:32. > :15:35.participation in sport is still patchy. We will be looking at what

:15:36. > :15:42.the Government plans to do to boost the number of people taking part.

:15:43. > :15:48.First, the main news. European leaders meeting in Brussels are to

:15:49. > :15:51.discuss David Cameron's demands for changes with the relationship with

:15:52. > :15:59.the EU. Many countries are against the Prime Minister's plan to curb in

:16:00. > :16:02.work benefits for EU migrants. New research suggests that cancer is

:16:03. > :16:07.overwhelmingly the result of lifestyle factors. It challenges a

:16:08. > :16:10.previous study that put the majority of cancer types down to bad luck. A

:16:11. > :16:15.new strategy to get more people involved in sport is being launched

:16:16. > :16:19.by the Government. It will concentrate on encouraging children

:16:20. > :16:22.as young as five to be more active. Russian President Vladimir Putin has

:16:23. > :16:26.begun his end of year news conference by fielding questions on

:16:27. > :16:30.the economy, saying it is showing signs of stabilisation. He is also

:16:31. > :16:35.expected to answer questions about Moscow's military action in Syria.

:16:36. > :16:39.Stars and storm troopers gathered in London last night for the European

:16:40. > :16:42.premiere of the new Star Wars film. Thousands of fans turned out in

:16:43. > :16:49.Leicester Square to welcome the seventh film in the franchise. Now

:16:50. > :16:56.the sport. More changes in store for the England rugby union side? Yes,

:16:57. > :17:00.bad news for Chris Robicheaux. He was the man and a Stuart Lancaster,

:17:01. > :17:06.but since he has been replaced as head coach, the pressure has really

:17:07. > :17:14.mounted on Robicheaux. He has been criticised strongly in the

:17:15. > :17:17.decision-making. The man coming in is Dylan Hartley. He has a notable

:17:18. > :17:23.rap sheet. He missed the World Cup after being banned for a head-butt.

:17:24. > :17:27.He has been banned for 54 weeks during his career. But he's one of

:17:28. > :17:32.the most experienced players available for the new coach ahead of

:17:33. > :17:37.the Six Nations. Elsewhere, all smiles for Spurs, as their new home

:17:38. > :17:43.in Harrogate gets approval. They will have a 61,000 seater stadium,

:17:44. > :17:46.more than Arsenal. That will not tarnish the day of another Arsenal

:17:47. > :17:52.fan, AP McCoy. He will be honoured with a well-deserved lifetime

:17:53. > :17:58.achievement award. We will also have more on the new sports strategy.

:17:59. > :18:03.Plenty to come just after ten o'clock.

:18:04. > :18:10.Let's go back to the breaking news that we brought you a few moments

:18:11. > :18:13.ago. There has been a ruling that paratroopers will not have to go to

:18:14. > :18:19.Northern Ireland to face police questioning over Bloody Sunday. 14

:18:20. > :18:24.people died on the 30th of January 1972 and a civil rights march in

:18:25. > :18:30.Londonderry. Andy Martin is at the High Court in London. Tell us more

:18:31. > :18:34.about the ruling. Well, we have just had this ruling handed down in the

:18:35. > :18:39.High Court. There was a judicial review over this. The Police Service

:18:40. > :18:42.of Northern Ireland said they were carrying out a murder investigation

:18:43. > :18:46.and in the course of that they wanted to interview seven

:18:47. > :18:53.paratroopers that were at Bloody Sunday, back in 1972. Against that,

:18:54. > :18:56.the paratroopers said there was no need for them to go to Northern

:18:57. > :18:59.Ireland, their lives could be at risk. Interviews could be carried

:19:00. > :19:04.out here on the mainland, since they were going to answer no comment to

:19:05. > :19:09.all questions asked of them anyway. We have just had this judgment now

:19:10. > :19:13.from the Lord Chief Justice and two other judges. They said they will

:19:14. > :19:15.grant an order prohibiting the Police Service of Northern Ireland

:19:16. > :19:20.from arresting the claimants in order to interview them under

:19:21. > :19:24.caution. So, the Police Service of Northern Ireland will have to come

:19:25. > :19:28.here to the mainland, to England or Wales, and carry out the interviews

:19:29. > :19:33.here in England or Wales. I have not had a chance to look at the full

:19:34. > :19:35.reasoning for the judgment. That, in essence, is the judgment. The

:19:36. > :19:39.paratroopers will be very happy with that. They argued there was no case

:19:40. > :19:43.for them to go to Northern Ireland. They said that the Police Service of

:19:44. > :19:49.Northern Ireland was being aggressive, obstructive, over

:19:50. > :19:53.administrative in insisting they went to Northern Ireland. The police

:19:54. > :19:57.service said it was their duty to investigate events that happened,

:19:58. > :20:01.however many decades ago, and it might be unpleasant for those taking

:20:02. > :20:06.part, but it was in the interests of justice that the paratroopers come

:20:07. > :20:08.to Northern Ireland. Just a bit of background, one paratrooper was

:20:09. > :20:13.arrested in Northern Ireland in November. He was arrested and

:20:14. > :20:14.interviewed, then bailed. The seven others will have to be interviewed

:20:15. > :20:20.here on the mainland. Almost six out of 10 adults play no

:20:21. > :20:23.sport in a typical week and that's So much so they've announced

:20:24. > :20:27.new plans to improve Britain's health and get more of us

:20:28. > :20:29.active and into sports. The focus will be on children

:20:30. > :20:33.as young as five and grassroots sports organisations will get extra

:20:34. > :20:36.cash in a hope it will encourage more of us to improve

:20:37. > :20:46.our general fitness. Earlier, the sports minister said

:20:47. > :20:50.that the Government would be targeting groups of people who are

:20:51. > :20:54.not often interested in sport. We know that we have challenges in

:20:55. > :21:00.certain communities. We know that older people stop participating in

:21:01. > :21:04.sport. We know women also drop off at a certain point. People from

:21:05. > :21:08.lower socioeconomic groups, Asian and ethnic minority groups, these

:21:09. > :21:11.are all areas we are targeting within the new sports strategy.

:21:12. > :21:16.There will be funding available to make sure we target those groups

:21:17. > :21:20.specifically. So, will the new plan work? In the studio is the

:21:21. > :21:29.Conservative MP Andrew Bingham, who sits on the sports committee, Chris

:21:30. > :21:33.Dunn, who runs a school sports team, the chief executive of a sports

:21:34. > :21:39.company, and were also joined by Tanni Grey-Thompson, former

:21:40. > :21:42.Paralympian. Andrew, if the Government wants to reach

:21:43. > :21:46.five-year-olds, why not do it through schools? The various ways we

:21:47. > :21:50.can do it. It is an encouragement we are looking to reach five-year-olds

:21:51. > :21:55.now. It was 14-year-olds previously. By the time people get to 14, we may

:21:56. > :21:58.have lost them. A five-year-olds can get involved in sport and physical

:21:59. > :22:08.activity, it takes so many boxes. Not just about physical activity, it

:22:09. > :22:12.includes social cohesion. Disappoint to a failure of policy and terms of

:22:13. > :22:19.selling off sports fields and also cancelling school sports

:22:20. > :22:24.partnership, which was giving money directly to schools? Don't think it

:22:25. > :22:27.does, it's a question of realigning Government policy, where we see the

:22:28. > :22:31.benefit of sport, how it can benefit. In years gone by, the local

:22:32. > :22:36.council used to look at sport. It is a fantastic medium for getting

:22:37. > :22:41.people involved. Has the Government not appreciated the value of sport

:22:42. > :22:45.in the past, with policies I have mentioned? It is a fair criticism,

:22:46. > :22:49.to a degree. I would not say forgotten, I think it has been

:22:50. > :22:52.underestimated. It's not just about physical activity, its various other

:22:53. > :22:57.parts of life that sport can help benefit. If you get young people

:22:58. > :23:01.playing team sport, it encourages teamwork, working with and for each

:23:02. > :23:06.other. Underestimated might be a fair criticism. Chris, would you

:23:07. > :23:16.agree that the value has been underestimated? I would. I have to

:23:17. > :23:19.say, I agree with most of what Andrew has to say, but I think he is

:23:20. > :23:22.quite wrong when he says in answer to your question that this is not

:23:23. > :23:24.about a realignment in terms of the National strategy. We had a very

:23:25. > :23:28.effective strategy in place after 2002, one of the most important

:23:29. > :23:33.reasons why we won the Olympic Games. When the School Sports

:23:34. > :23:39.Partnership was disbanded in 2010, we lost a very important part of the

:23:40. > :23:44.strategy. Did anything else change with the strategy? Or was it

:23:45. > :23:49.specifically the school partnership? Yes, particularly. But that is the

:23:50. > :23:54.reason why this strategy is so important, the realignment.

:23:55. > :23:59.Effectively, by saying you have to concentrate on five and above, the

:24:00. > :24:04.Government is accepting that. I agree with them, we do need to

:24:05. > :24:09.realign it and bring it away from 14 and down to five. But, again, unless

:24:10. > :24:14.you can engage the schools, you are not going to be able to gain access

:24:15. > :24:20.to the nation's children, the vast majority of children. Many of them

:24:21. > :24:25.are inactive at the early age. The money will be targeted in other

:24:26. > :24:30.ways, Michael De Giorgio, you are involved in the sort of project that

:24:31. > :24:38.is reaching out to people away from schools, through charity sports? It

:24:39. > :24:44.works in and outside schools. Young people go to school, and outside

:24:45. > :24:47.school. This is a fantastic new initiative, fantastic to be able to

:24:48. > :24:54.go to the younger age groups, asking people to be active, before they

:24:55. > :24:58.were funding people only at the age of 14 or above. To go to younger age

:24:59. > :25:04.groups, it is a really good change and we should be positive about it.

:25:05. > :25:14.Will there be extra cash, or does it just meant it is an initiative? It's

:25:15. > :25:18.about making sure that there is cash pub there is more cash in terms of

:25:19. > :25:21.football, the Government have done very well, the Premier League are

:25:22. > :25:25.going to increase it to almost double their money going into

:25:26. > :25:28.grassroots football. As somebody who is a passionate supporter of

:25:29. > :25:36.non-league football, that is great. The Premier League is awash with

:25:37. > :25:42.money, and we are seeing grassroots sports struggling. I am very pleased

:25:43. > :25:49.about that. Tell us your experience of sport. Well, I started off, when

:25:50. > :25:57.I first started, I was in my local park, in Vauxhall. I met a nice man,

:25:58. > :26:03.called Andreas, he was there to do football sessions with young people.

:26:04. > :26:07.He got me involved, we had opportunities, the time I wasn't

:26:08. > :26:11.doing much. I thought I might as well spend my time well. I decided

:26:12. > :26:18.to volunteer. He forwarded me to Street Games. It's been a great

:26:19. > :26:22.organisation. I've only been there for six months and I have achieved

:26:23. > :26:29.so much already. Had you been active in school, in sport? I was, but when

:26:30. > :26:33.I left school, I wasn't interested as much. It is good to find those

:26:34. > :26:39.roots again, being active and fit again. Tanni Grey-Thompson, you are

:26:40. > :26:43.involved in the new initiative. How much of a difference do you think it

:26:44. > :26:47.will make? I think it is really exciting. What we need to be doing

:26:48. > :26:51.is thinking about activity in the broader sense. We talk about sport,

:26:52. > :26:56.but sport is quite a small part of it. You know, competitive sport. If

:26:57. > :26:59.we have more children being active, with a healthier lifestyle, they

:27:00. > :27:06.have better skills, sport will benefit from it in terms of there

:27:07. > :27:10.being more talented children coming in. Obesity costs is ?20 billion

:27:11. > :27:15.each year. Diabetes is costing money. We need to think about

:27:16. > :27:22.activity, as well as prevention, rather than spending a lot of money

:27:23. > :27:25.through the NHS. For me, it's a really positive move that we are

:27:26. > :27:29.able to look at funding at a much younger age. Why do you think the

:27:30. > :27:35.Olympic legacy has not been as great as had been hoped? A huge amount of

:27:36. > :27:40.expectation come I don't think it is fair to expect two weeks of the

:27:41. > :27:43.Olympics and ten days Paralympics to change the world. There has been an

:27:44. > :27:49.evolution in our understanding. We used to think it was hugely

:27:50. > :27:54.inspirational. The games are really inspirational to sporty people. For

:27:55. > :27:58.sporty girls, you look at some of the biggest stars we have. If you

:27:59. > :28:02.are ten or 11, it is hard to look at some of the big names in sport and

:28:03. > :28:11.understand how you take the steps to be there. I was saying boys, even

:28:12. > :28:15.men play football, they pretend to be David Beckham. Girls don't do it

:28:16. > :28:20.in that kind of way. We need to find a different way to inspire people to

:28:21. > :28:26.be active, the fit and healthy, to have fun. Also, sport is great for

:28:27. > :28:31.lots of people, but it is different from when I young. I went and did

:28:32. > :28:34.sports that my parents took me to. Children want more choice, they want

:28:35. > :28:38.to do different things, they don't necessarily want to go to the same

:28:39. > :28:42.sports club at 7:30pm on a Thursday every week. They wanted to pick and

:28:43. > :28:47.choose. We've got to be quite flexible. What would you say is the

:28:48. > :28:56.best way to infuse kids that don't do so much? We have to create

:28:57. > :29:00.long-term sustainable programmes. We need programmes that are running

:29:01. > :29:09.with the same person, the same coach, to work in the long term.

:29:10. > :29:13.This is what is changing. The new policy is allowing us to work with

:29:14. > :29:17.the community, putting local coaches, people that are well

:29:18. > :29:23.trained, that is what we should be trying to do, putting them into work

:29:24. > :29:27.with local people. These coaches that are technically good, able to

:29:28. > :29:36.engage with young people, if we can concentrate on doing that we will

:29:37. > :29:41.make a real difference. We have always try to do things differently.

:29:42. > :29:47.It is a real change, we should be positive about this. When we look at

:29:48. > :29:53.statistics from 2012, 7% of British pupils are educated privately, but

:29:54. > :29:56.half of the 2012 medal winners for Britain were privately educated. It

:29:57. > :30:01.does say something about the fundamentals of what is going on in

:30:02. > :30:05.schools and how to reach these kids growing up? You are right. That is

:30:06. > :30:10.why the sports strategy is so important. It says, within the

:30:11. > :30:17.strategy, it is aimed at a hard to reach group, whether they be women

:30:18. > :30:21.in sport, or as Tanni mentioned, disabled sport, low socioeconomic

:30:22. > :30:25.groups. That is the whole point, we've got to get it out beyond the

:30:26. > :30:29.people you're talking about. Also, touching on the other thing, we are

:30:30. > :30:35.talking about young people. The whole range of ages. We are talking

:30:36. > :30:39.about personal fitness, public health. In my constituency, they

:30:40. > :30:44.have a walk in football programme for men of a senior age, like me,

:30:45. > :30:49.were the football is walking. I have been and done that. Retired blokes,

:30:50. > :30:53.once a week, they play walking football, they get together, have a

:30:54. > :30:59.laugh. It is about a whole range of things. Tanni is absolutely right.

:31:00. > :31:04.We talk about sport, we should re-budget as physical activity. We

:31:05. > :31:07.have this obesity problem, so many problems. Physical activity reaching

:31:08. > :31:14.all parts of society is what it is about. Chris, do you agree with

:31:15. > :31:17.that? Absolutely, and Tanni is absolutely right as well. It is in

:31:18. > :31:25.physical activity in the widest possible sense. It is also about

:31:26. > :31:30.sport and Olympic aspirations. We should be concerned about that as

:31:31. > :31:34.well. Should I correct something that said earlier, it might be true

:31:35. > :31:40.that the percentages from the privately educated, but when you

:31:41. > :31:45.take out really expensive shorts -- sports like a question and shooting,

:31:46. > :31:50.it is not true. What we are doing in a small part of East London, where I

:31:51. > :31:55.chair a sports foundation, we have a number of, in a tiny borough, a

:31:56. > :32:02.number of students in Team GB. They are the future Olympic athletes and

:32:03. > :32:07.Paralympic athletes. Not only happened because we focused on those

:32:08. > :32:13.children from the early ages. One boy, we identified him at the age of

:32:14. > :32:18.six as a potential judo champion. He's now in Team GB. Michael is

:32:19. > :32:20.right. You've got to start young, infuse and inspire young people at

:32:21. > :32:24.the very earliest stages and infuse and inspire young people at

:32:25. > :32:28.with them. He has the same coach now, 12 years later as he did when

:32:29. > :32:34.he started. That's really important. The consistency and continuity. The

:32:35. > :32:37.coaches, sometimes in the most deprived parts of the country, take

:32:38. > :32:42.the place of older brothers and sisters, and parents.

:32:43. > :32:49.Let's bring in some viewers' comments. One says more people would

:32:50. > :32:53.do physical activity if it was cheaper in sports clubs. I live on a

:32:54. > :32:57.main road so nowhere is safe to play. Simon says, I work with a

:32:58. > :33:00.local sports team and there are a lot of examples were the children

:33:01. > :33:03.are willing and the parents not. Eight girls interested in rugby but

:33:04. > :33:07.cannot get to training as the parents don't want to take them.

:33:08. > :33:10.Peter on e-mail, schools don't need money, they and parents need a

:33:11. > :33:14.change of attitude to physical exercise, this is another case of

:33:15. > :33:19.irresponsible and lazy parenting. Answer the last point?

:33:20. > :33:23.Well, not for me to comment on people's parenting. Why not, you are

:33:24. > :33:27.a politician? Politician?. But I'm not a parent, but I think the point

:33:28. > :33:31.is, that's right, there is an element of responsibility. I was

:33:32. > :33:35.always encouraged by my parents to play sport. I wasn't very good but

:33:36. > :33:37.still got the benefits of playing football, cricket, badminton,

:33:38. > :33:42.whatever it was, because I think there's a point in that with we have

:33:43. > :33:48.to encourage families and everybody. That's important that the focus is

:33:49. > :33:52.on the grass roots groups like the projects we have heard about today.

:33:53. > :33:56.They're the people who the children interact with and you are absolutely

:33:57. > :33:59.right about the consistency whereby they know if they want to play

:34:00. > :34:03.whatever sport it is they are interested in, they can do it

:34:04. > :34:07.regularly, they want the familiar face that encourages them. This

:34:08. > :34:10.isn't just about breeding the next generation of world champions and

:34:11. > :34:15.Olympic champions, it's about getting people active, out of their

:34:16. > :34:19.arm chairs, away from saiden tear lives and getting them into sport,

:34:20. > :34:23.whether they be emotional or physical. The important thing to do

:34:24. > :34:28.here, apart from the change of age group is, we are changing this. In

:34:29. > :34:32.the past, success was based on numbers, participation numbers. The

:34:33. > :34:36.more people you had on a programme was success. Now we are realising

:34:37. > :34:41.there are social outcomes. This is going to be judged on social

:34:42. > :34:46.outcomes. Funding should go to projects where you can actually

:34:47. > :34:50.demonstrate your impact. We at Greenhouse spend money trying to

:34:51. > :34:54.prove our impact. If you do that, you deserve the funding in. The

:34:55. > :35:00.past, funding was based on participation numbers, which doesn't

:35:01. > :35:07.make sense. That's flagged up in the strategy, it says "meaningful

:35:08. > :35:12.projects". Thank you all very much. Coming up, an unhealthy lifestyle

:35:13. > :35:14.could be a factor in 90% of cancers according to a new report. We'll

:35:15. > :35:20.bring you the details. Getting married on a beach,

:35:21. > :35:23.in a park or even your own home may At the moment there are strict laws

:35:24. > :35:28.surrounding marriage in England and Wales, so if you do want to tie

:35:29. > :35:31.the knot somewhere unusual it may not be legally binding and some

:35:32. > :35:36.couples have only found Now a review by the Law Commission

:35:37. > :35:44.says reforms are needed to modernise the system, as has already

:35:45. > :35:48.happened in Scotland. I'm joined by Dilveer,

:35:49. > :35:51.who recently got married and opted for a ceremony that fell

:35:52. > :35:55.outside of the law. Anna is a lawyer who's represented

:35:56. > :36:01.women who've found out long after their weddings

:36:02. > :36:17.that they weren't legally binding. Aina, tell us about what you found?

:36:18. > :36:21.It's normally people call me after the marriage has broken down and

:36:22. > :36:25.they find that they have no rights under English law. They thought they

:36:26. > :36:29.were married because they had a ceremony according to their faith.

:36:30. > :36:34.It's usually Muslim women that come to me as I'm head of the Islamic

:36:35. > :36:38.Department of A major UK firm. They usually research this and find there

:36:39. > :36:42.are other women in that position and that perhaps I can actually get them

:36:43. > :36:47.legal redress. You say that they only find out long after. Did

:36:48. > :36:52.anybody know at the time, or is it an area that people simply aren't

:36:53. > :36:57.aware of? Largely everybody is ignorant to law and it's very

:36:58. > :37:02.complex so you can't blame them. The ceremony looks like any marriage, it

:37:03. > :37:06.looks like a marriage, sounds like a marriage, they even sign a

:37:07. > :37:10.certificate which the mosques give them but it has no legal standing at

:37:11. > :37:15.all because they are not recognised as marriages under UK law. The

:37:16. > :37:18.repercussion is that they are classed as girlfriends or cohabitees

:37:19. > :37:24.and there is no such thing as common law marriage, we don't have

:37:25. > :37:26.cohabitation rights in the UK. If these are faith ceremonies,

:37:27. > :37:33.presumably this is widespread. How many are affected by this? On my own

:37:34. > :37:39.evidence of my daily work of getting calls, I feel nearly three million

:37:40. > :37:42.Muslims in the UK, it's at least 100,000 people who're in

:37:43. > :37:47.unregistered religious marriages, maybe a lot more if we were to have

:37:48. > :37:51.the data. So explain the difference. How come all the marriages aren't in

:37:52. > :37:56.the same situation? Traditionally, when you were a British citizen and

:37:57. > :37:59.you wanted to sponsor a spouse from abroad, you married them in your

:38:00. > :38:04.country of origin, that's recognised in the UK as a legal marriage, so if

:38:05. > :38:09.you are married abroad it's legal and everyone assumed that's the case

:38:10. > :38:14.once they settled down, became third generation British, became confident

:38:15. > :38:17.as British Pimarying each other, rather than sponsoring abroad that

:38:18. > :38:25.their marriage must be the same status. They often said to me, my

:38:26. > :38:28.brother had a marriage that was Islamic and that was legal so why

:38:29. > :38:32.wasn't mine - there's a lot of confusion. You opted for a

:38:33. > :38:37.particular sort of wedding which you knew would not be compliant with the

:38:38. > :38:42.law. Tell us about your experience? I did some research when I wanted to

:38:43. > :38:46.get married and my husband and I are both not religious so we had a

:38:47. > :38:52.humanist ceremony because that was the type that most fitted with our

:38:53. > :38:58.desires for the day, so our options were quite limited. We legally could

:38:59. > :39:02.either have a religious ceremony which didn't fit with either of us

:39:03. > :39:07.although I was brought up in a religious tradition, I didn't feel

:39:08. > :39:12.that fitted my beliefs now though, so a civil ceremony didn't really

:39:13. > :39:16.tick the boxes. Were you aware that there was an issue with what you

:39:17. > :39:21.wanted in that the marriage may not be legal? Yes. How did you get

:39:22. > :39:26.around that? We had two separate days of wedding, Al civil ceremony

:39:27. > :39:37.which we didn't feel was our emotional day, then we had a

:39:38. > :39:42.ceremony which was personal, done by someone who shared our beliefs and

:39:43. > :39:49.it had the aspects I wanted which were music, a choir singing, lots of

:39:50. > :39:55.things that actually even in a civil ceremony when I enquired wouldn't be

:39:56. > :40:04.possible. So, Aina from your legal perspective, would it be easy to

:40:05. > :40:11.change the law to change the ceremony? It's a very outmoded law

:40:12. > :40:16.we have now. It goes back to 1949, but in fact, nearly two centuries

:40:17. > :40:21.old if you look at the origin of it. Life's changed dramatically. We have

:40:22. > :40:26.more immigration, multicultural society, so we need dramatic change

:40:27. > :40:30.and an update in law. I think it's not fit for purpose now. It's not

:40:31. > :40:33.going to be difficult to require at least the following to have marriage

:40:34. > :40:39.law say that all faiths should be treated the same. So it's not just

:40:40. > :40:43.Anglican church, Jews and quakers who have to register marriages,

:40:44. > :40:52.everyone else can volunteer to do so - why? Why isn't there clarity so

:40:53. > :40:55.all religions are treated the same? Also humanist and nonreligious

:40:56. > :41:02.marriages, there should be clarity there as well. Perhaps being allowed

:41:03. > :41:05.to marry outside, in the evenings, it's not complex. Thank you both

:41:06. > :41:07.very much. Let us know your thoughts if you have been affected by that.

:41:08. > :41:12.very much. Let us know your thoughts Also still to come, we'll get to the

:41:13. > :41:15.heart of the issues around Britain's relationship with Europe as David

:41:16. > :41:22.Cameron prepares to renegotiate the terms of the UK's EU membership.

:41:23. > :41:24.In the last hour, the European Commission President, Jean-Claude

:41:25. > :41:27.Juncker, has said the talks later will be frank and open, but he's

:41:28. > :41:34.hopeful of a fair deal for all concerned.

:41:35. > :41:48.We'll have a frank and open debate, the first time that it will be a

:41:49. > :41:52.debate looking into the substantial material of the debate. I don't know

:41:53. > :41:59.what the British Prime Minister will explain, although I had him on the

:42:00. > :42:02.phone but, as I'm not a spokesman of the British Government, we'll leave

:42:03. > :42:07.it to his responsibility to make these things clear to the outside

:42:08. > :42:12.world. As far as the commission is concerned, even during the campaign,

:42:13. > :42:21.we have the running for the presidency of the commission. I made

:42:22. > :42:27.it clear that there has to be a fair deal for Britain and the other 27,

:42:28. > :42:32.so we are open-minded. We are engaging in this dialogue which will

:42:33. > :42:36.be a negotiation with Britain in open-minded ways. I don't want the

:42:37. > :42:42.British to leave and I don't want to blame the British. They have their

:42:43. > :42:45.points, we have our points and that's reasonable, as people we'll

:42:46. > :42:52.find a way out of the complicated situation we are in. Time for a

:42:53. > :42:58.weather update with Alex. It's really warm, I'm confused.

:42:59. > :43:02.Plants are confused too, we have daffodils coming out, not very

:43:03. > :43:07.December-like, seeing people walking down the streets carrying bundles of

:43:08. > :43:12.wrapping paper whilst wearing short sleeves. It's not just here, across

:43:13. > :43:20.the other side of the pond they like to do things even bigger in the

:43:21. > :43:26.United States and they have a really warm spell in the States. Normally

:43:27. > :43:31.at this time of the year Buffalo would be covered in snow, but look

:43:32. > :43:36.at the temperatures, 14 degrees above average. It's incredible. Why?

:43:37. > :43:43.They have a warm swathe of air coming up from the south, to do with

:43:44. > :43:48.the direction of the jet stream. The cold air is across the Arctic. There

:43:49. > :43:52.are some intrusions, as we call them, of colder air coming down but

:43:53. > :43:56.this is the middle of the Atlantic nowhere near us, this is what we are

:43:57. > :44:00.seeing across the UK, it's been a very, very mild December, incredibly

:44:01. > :44:04.mild and we are getting the warmth from the south-west, so to do with

:44:05. > :44:11.the position of the jet stream dragging up from the Azore and

:44:12. > :44:15.beyond. These are the December records, the all-time December

:44:16. > :44:18.records, the warmest day back in 1948, probably not going to get to

:44:19. > :44:27.that, but we are not far off. The last couple of days have been warm.

:44:28. > :44:32.15 on Saturday so not far off record-breaking. You all hate

:44:33. > :44:36.looking far too forward, but does this mean we are going to skip

:44:37. > :44:39.winter as we know it? That is difficult to tell. There are signs

:44:40. > :44:44.that later in the winter it might get back to something a bit colder,

:44:45. > :44:49.but for the foreseeable it stays mild into the New Year.

:44:50. > :44:55.It was a really mild start today. These were the temperatures as we

:44:56. > :45:01.began Thursday. It was 16 degrees in Bude in

:45:02. > :45:04.Cornwall this morning. That is why nature is also getting confused. We

:45:05. > :45:10.are being sent pictures of strawberries in December! Need a bit

:45:11. > :45:14.of sunshine toe ripen those, but nevertheless, the flowers and

:45:15. > :45:20.daffodils are out as for north as Ayr as our weather-watchers have

:45:21. > :45:25.been sending in. Temperatures 14, 15 in Kent. Yes it's going to stay mild

:45:26. > :45:31.for the rest of the week and into the weekend.

:45:32. > :45:33.the place of older brothers and sisters, and parents.

:45:34. > :45:40.It's been a soggy start across Northern Ireland. It will fizzle out

:45:41. > :45:46.a little bit, nevertheless it is going to bring some rain across

:45:47. > :45:51.north-west England. Ahead of it, it stays fine and bright. Behind it, it

:45:52. > :45:54.will brighten up quite nicely across Scotland and Northern Ireland,

:45:55. > :46:02.although there will be a few showers across the south-west. This

:46:03. > :46:06.afternoon, it will be a little fresher, still ten or 11 degrees.

:46:07. > :46:10.Northern Ireland also brightening up. It will be much brighter to end

:46:11. > :46:14.the day across north-west England and Wales after some rain this

:46:15. > :46:18.morning. South-west England also brightening up. This line of rain

:46:19. > :46:22.appearing across the Midlands, parts of eastern England. The head of that

:46:23. > :46:29.it is dry until this evening. We will get the rain across East Anglia

:46:30. > :46:33.and the south-east. We are left with showers across western Scotland.

:46:34. > :46:37.Behind the band of rain, a cold front. The air is a little bit

:46:38. > :46:41.colder. It really is only a little bit. These are the overnight

:46:42. > :46:47.temperatures. Not as warm as last night, but still well, well above

:46:48. > :46:51.the average at 10-12dC. Still mild into Friday. Still drawing the air

:46:52. > :46:54.up. A few showers in the West and more persistent rain for Northern

:46:55. > :47:02.Ireland and western Scotland. Many eastern areas stay dry. Low pressure

:47:03. > :47:08.systems dominating for the weekend. Pointing right the way down to the

:47:09. > :47:12.Azores, that is where the air is coming from. The weather front also

:47:13. > :47:15.needs watching. There is potential for heavy rain in Wales and

:47:16. > :47:19.north-west England. The risk of some flooding in these areas. We will

:47:20. > :47:21.keep an eye on that. The main thing is the temperatures, no sign of

:47:22. > :47:25.things cooling off into Christmas week.

:47:26. > :47:40.Thank you for joining us this morning, welcome to the programme

:47:41. > :47:45.As David Cameron tense up the heat on his partners in the EU over the

:47:46. > :47:50.right for migrants to claim benefits, we have two different

:47:51. > :47:56.views on the debate. A Britain in the European Union is a safer and

:47:57. > :47:59.more prosperous union. Today, the EU has its own flag and national

:48:00. > :48:08.anthem, and it is slowly morphing into a dictatorial United States of

:48:09. > :48:13.Europe, one in which our voices will only become ever more insignificant.

:48:14. > :48:17.What is best for Britain? We will be discussing it with our audience of

:48:18. > :48:21.viewers and voters. And a harsh warning on cancer. Poor lifestyle

:48:22. > :48:23.could cause the disease in 90% of cases according to new research. We

:48:24. > :48:41.will have the details. European leaders meeting in Brussels

:48:42. > :48:44.later to discuss David Cameron's demands for EU reform, amid

:48:45. > :48:47.opposition to the Prime Minister's plans on benefit curbs. Earlier, the

:48:48. > :48:52.President of the European Commission said he wanted a fair deal for

:48:53. > :48:57.Britain and the EU. New research suggests that cancer is

:48:58. > :49:03.overwhelmingly a result of environmental and behavioural

:49:04. > :49:07.factors, such as smoking. The High Court has ruled former paratroopers

:49:08. > :49:11.will not be detained and transferred to Northern Ireland to face police

:49:12. > :49:14.questioning over the bloody Sunday killings in 1972. Instead, they will

:49:15. > :49:19.be interviewed at a police station in England or Wales. The Government

:49:20. > :49:25.says it is cutting subsidies for solar panels on people's homes by

:49:26. > :49:29.64%. In the summer, ministers propose a reduction of 87%. Industry

:49:30. > :49:35.figures say the concession does not go far enough.

:49:36. > :49:39.Stars and storm troopers gathered in London last night for the European

:49:40. > :49:42.premiere of the new Star Wars film. Thousands of fans turned out in

:49:43. > :49:50.Leicester Square to welcome the seventh film in the franchise. Let's

:49:51. > :49:53.catch up with the sport. We can get more on that Government strategy to

:49:54. > :49:55.encourage more of us to participate in sport.

:49:56. > :49:58.Children as young as five will be targeted as part of a new Government

:49:59. > :50:00.strategy to involve more people in sport and fitness.

:50:01. > :50:02.Sport England, the agency responsible for grassroots sport,

:50:03. > :50:05.will now share its ?1 billion budget more widely and the Premier League

:50:06. > :50:07.will double its grassroots investment.

:50:08. > :50:11.Sports Minister Tracey Crouch doesn't think the recent drop

:50:12. > :50:16.in participation figures means the 2012 Olympic legacy has failed.

:50:17. > :50:23.I think we have a really strong legacy from 2012. We are seeing more

:50:24. > :50:28.people participating in sport now than when we won the bid in 2005.

:50:29. > :50:33.With more people participating than in 2010. What we are beginning to

:50:34. > :50:37.see is a flat-lining, stagnation of people participating in sports since

:50:38. > :50:43.2012, which is why it is right that we now deliver the new strategy. The

:50:44. > :50:47.past strategy was designed specifically around the Olympics. We

:50:48. > :50:51.need to look at why people are not participating, who the people are,

:50:52. > :50:55.how we can target them and get them more involved. One of the problems

:50:56. > :50:58.we have at the moment is that measurement does not include the

:50:59. > :51:03.many kids that have been inspired as a consequence of the Olympics and

:51:04. > :51:06.Paralympics. We, as in other cases we have seen where we have

:51:07. > :51:14.12-year-old girls in a boxing ring because they are inspired by Nicola

:51:15. > :51:17.Adams, but they are not measured by the participation results. I think

:51:18. > :51:21.that is unfair when we talk about the legacy. Lots of children are

:51:22. > :51:21.involved but are not recognised for that.

:51:22. > :51:25.Now, he's been banned for a total of 54 weeks during his career

:51:26. > :51:28.and was dropped from the World Cup after a suspension for head-butting

:51:29. > :51:30.but Dylan Hartley is now the leading contender to be named England's

:51:31. > :51:34.It's thought new Head Coach Eddie Jones wants a more confrontational

:51:35. > :51:38.character to lead the side and Hartley is the favourite

:51:39. > :51:43.Hartley is one of the experienced players available and he captained

:51:44. > :51:47.Northampton to the Premiership title in 2014.

:51:48. > :51:49.Tottenham Hotspur have had revised plans for a new stadium approved

:51:50. > :51:54.by Haringey Council - spelling the end for

:51:55. > :51:58.White Hart Lane, which was first built in 1899.

:51:59. > :52:01.Spurs hope to move to their new 61,000-seat home in time

:52:02. > :52:07.The planning proposal includes a deal that will see at least two

:52:08. > :52:12.NFL matches at the stadium each season in a 10-year period.

:52:13. > :52:14.The development will take place on land which the current stadium

:52:15. > :52:17.stands on and work is due to start in spring next year.

:52:18. > :52:19.The plans must be formally approved by the London Mayor

:52:20. > :52:24.and Boris Johnson is said to be a fan of the project.

:52:25. > :52:26.AP McCoy will be honoured with the Lifetime Achievement award

:52:27. > :52:29.at this year's BBC Sports Personality of the Year ceremony

:52:30. > :52:32.which takes place in Belfast on Sunday.

:52:33. > :52:36.The 20-time champion jockey, who retired in April,

:52:37. > :52:38.dominated the National Hunt scene, winning virtually every major prize

:52:39. > :52:42.The Ulsterman became the first jockey to be crowned

:52:43. > :52:45.Sports Personality of the Year in 2010 after winning the Grand

:52:46. > :53:00.That is all the sport for now. I will have the headlines at 10:30pm.

:53:01. > :53:04.Thank you for joining us this morning, welcome to the programme

:53:05. > :53:08.if you've just joined us, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC

:53:09. > :53:12.Your contributions to this programme and your expertise

:53:13. > :53:15.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:53:16. > :53:17.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:53:18. > :53:21.you are - via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria -

:53:22. > :53:24.and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

:53:25. > :53:28.by going to add topics and searching "Victoria Derbyshire".

:53:29. > :53:34.This morning we have been talking about Europe and why David Cameron

:53:35. > :53:44.wants to renegotiate the relationship with the European

:53:45. > :53:48.Union. He will try to convince sceptical European leaders to accept

:53:49. > :53:55.his proposals on migrants before the referendum at the end of 2017.

:53:56. > :53:59.Jean-Claude Juncker says he wants to see a fair deal for Britain, but

:54:00. > :54:07.says it must also be fair for other member states. Earlier, you heard

:54:08. > :54:13.from Alan Johnson, making the case for staying in the EU.

:54:14. > :54:15.In a moment we will hear from UKIP's Suzanne Evans.

:54:16. > :54:18.But first, here's Alex Forsyth in Brussels with some of the issues

:54:19. > :54:22.On the outskirts of Brussels, there's a theme park where every

:54:23. > :54:24.country in the European Union is represented.

:54:25. > :54:27.Right now, the UK is trying to work out how it fits in the EU.

:54:28. > :54:30.David Cameron wants to change the terms of its relationship.

:54:31. > :54:32.He's set out four proposed areas of reform.

:54:33. > :54:34.He wants to protect the power of national Members of Parliament,

:54:35. > :54:37.he wants to make the EU more competitive, he wants to make sure

:54:38. > :54:39.countries outside the eurozone aren't affected by decisions

:54:40. > :54:43.of those who do have the euro and he wants to restrict access

:54:44. > :54:48.to benefits for migrant workers to try to reduce immigration.

:54:49. > :54:50.But some countries like Hungary also Romania, Slovakia

:54:51. > :54:53.and the Czech Republic, worry that last measure

:54:54. > :54:59.will discriminate against their citizens who want to work in the UK.

:55:00. > :55:01.They are strongly opposed to the plan and it's proving

:55:02. > :55:08.In Brussels today, all 28 EU leaders will meet to discuss this

:55:09. > :55:13.There won't be a deal, that won't happen until February

:55:14. > :55:16.at the earliest, but they'll be trying to edge towards a solution.

:55:17. > :55:22.The question is, who will compromise and on what?

:55:23. > :55:24.And can David Cameron satisfy European leaders and

:55:25. > :55:41.We have heard from Alan Johnson, who is fronting Labour's campaign to

:55:42. > :55:44.stay in the EU. You can watch his film again

:55:45. > :55:46.on our programme page. Next it's the turn of Suzanne Evans,

:55:47. > :55:49.Ukip's deputy chairman. Here's her film about why

:55:50. > :55:52.we should leave the EU. Britain has given away far too

:55:53. > :55:56.many powers to Brussels. We are wasting billions on our

:55:57. > :55:59.membership of the European Union and migration without limits

:56:00. > :56:01.is putting intense pressure I'm Suzanne Evans, deputy chairman

:56:02. > :56:19.of Ukip and I think we should leave Well, of the 51 countries in Europe,

:56:20. > :56:25.only 28 are members, Because citizenship of one EU member

:56:26. > :56:34.state is a free pass to the rest. The horrific and inhumane

:56:35. > :56:40.consequences of this can be seen day in, day out on or TV screens

:56:41. > :56:44.at the moment as migrants risk life But the number one reason

:56:45. > :56:48.I want to leave is because the EU They have the power to tell us

:56:49. > :56:53.what to do in our own country and right now there's not a lot

:56:54. > :57:00.you or I can do to stop them. There's not much the people

:57:01. > :57:04.in here can do about it either. If you think our MPs run

:57:05. > :57:07.the country, think again. This might be the home

:57:08. > :57:09.of our national Parliament, but it doesn't mean

:57:10. > :57:12.MPs make all the laws. Let's go and talk to Ukip

:57:13. > :57:17.MP Douglas Carswell. Douglas, why can't MPs such

:57:18. > :57:19.as yourself make all the laws Slowly but surely, MPs

:57:20. > :57:25.here in the House of Commons and ministers in Whitehall,

:57:26. > :57:29.have given our powers away. It's one of the reasons why people

:57:30. > :57:32.feel this incredible sense of frustration with the political

:57:33. > :57:34.process because you elect people to sort things out,

:57:35. > :57:37.but actually on many, On bank reforms, that matters

:57:38. > :57:43.enormously to people. We saw the huge bail outs,

:57:44. > :57:46.they want something done about it. I've tried to trigger debate

:57:47. > :57:49.about this in the House of Commons and try to make sure

:57:50. > :57:51.that my constituents' real sense of anger against that sense

:57:52. > :57:55.of entitlement that the bankers have is dealt with, no can do,

:57:56. > :57:58.it's up to Brussels. Brussels has a huge say over laws

:57:59. > :58:01.in Britain on issues like business and employment,

:58:02. > :58:04.energy, trade, farming, fishing, and what's best for Britain

:58:05. > :58:15.simply isn't prioritised. I'm passionate about animal welfare

:58:16. > :58:18.so I get really incensed when I hear British pig farmers are losing out

:58:19. > :58:24.because of cheap imports of pork from other country who don't take

:58:25. > :58:27.the issue as seriously as we do. Even when the European Union does

:58:28. > :58:30.make good rules, it seems Duncan Howie's family have been

:58:31. > :58:57.farming pigs since 1967. How is business in pig

:58:58. > :58:58.farming at the moment? We are always optimistic

:58:59. > :59:03.of the long-term, but bluntly, the industry is in

:59:04. > :59:05.a bit of a crisis. Every pig we produce,

:59:06. > :59:11.we are losing money on. The EU only banned sow

:59:12. > :59:14.stalls three years ago, the UK we banned them in 1999

:59:15. > :59:18.but yet the European Commission tell us there are six countries

:59:19. > :59:20.that are noncompliant No, we have a fair idea,

:59:21. > :59:29.but if I grew pigs to the same welfare standard in this country,

:59:30. > :59:31.I would be locked up. Firstly I wouldn't want

:59:32. > :59:36.to and secondly, they are producing pork at a cost of production much

:59:37. > :59:40.lower than we can here and yesterday they are allowed to sell it

:59:41. > :59:43.on the supermarket shelves alongside our pork products

:59:44. > :59:49.and the key thing is, for consumers, this Christmas when they are buying

:59:50. > :59:51.Christmas gammons, to look for the red tractor,

:59:52. > :00:00.trust it and buy British. The second reason I want to leave

:00:01. > :00:06.the European Union. It costs us ?10 billion a year

:00:07. > :00:11.in membership fees alone. About the same as we spend on GP

:00:12. > :00:14.services for the entire And then of course there's

:00:15. > :00:18.the indirect cost of meeting regulations and directives set

:00:19. > :00:20.by Brussels and the impact of policies such as the free

:00:21. > :00:26.movement of people. While Britain remains

:00:27. > :00:29.in the European Union, we are obliged to let any EU citizen

:00:30. > :00:32.that wants to come here come. And if we can't control how many

:00:33. > :00:38.migrants we get coming into the country, how can we plan

:00:39. > :00:42.for and relieve pressure on Public Services such

:00:43. > :00:44.as our GP surgeries, I also think it's disturbingly

:00:45. > :00:50.unfair, which is my next reason for wanting to leave

:00:51. > :01:18.the European Union. Alex Petronov is a painter

:01:19. > :01:23.and decorator working in London and Iglika Devlitvan is studying

:01:24. > :01:27.accounting and finance Some people in Britain

:01:28. > :01:45.say oh, you only come Most of the people I know,

:01:46. > :02:00.they are grafters. I think the majority of the people

:02:01. > :02:04.that are coming over, they're here to work,

:02:05. > :02:07.pay their way in life Personally, I haven't spoken to any

:02:08. > :02:12.Bulgarians here that came just They came for better

:02:13. > :02:26.Job opportunities. There were 50,000 Romanians

:02:27. > :02:28.and Bulgarians who came to the United Kingdom

:02:29. > :02:31.in the last year. Far more I think than most

:02:32. > :02:33.people anticipated. I don't think that level

:02:34. > :02:37.will continue because my personal opinion is whoever wanted to come

:02:38. > :02:39.in this country from Bulgaria would have taken the

:02:40. > :02:43.opportunity this year. Bulgaria is seven million

:02:44. > :02:50.all together so I can't see Do you think it's fair though that

:02:51. > :02:58.just because you're from an EU country, you have an open door

:02:59. > :03:00.to Britain, whereas highly skilled, highly qualified people from other

:03:01. > :03:03.countries can't get here? I don't think that is actually

:03:04. > :03:08.happening about the good jobs. Most of the Bulgarian and Romanian

:03:09. > :03:13.people here work at I don't think anybody from Britain

:03:14. > :03:19.or anybody who is educated is going to apply for a cleaner,

:03:20. > :03:23.for example, or a car wash 40 years ago, the people of this

:03:24. > :03:34.country voted to stay in what they were told was just

:03:35. > :03:37.a Common Market. Today, the EU has its own flag

:03:38. > :03:45.and its own National Anthem and it's slowly but surely morphing

:03:46. > :03:48.into a dictatorial United States of Europe, one in which our

:03:49. > :03:52.Government and our voices will only And a vote to leave is a vote

:03:53. > :04:00.of confidence in Britain It's a vote that says quite simply,

:04:01. > :04:08.we are more than just a star Watching that with us

:04:09. > :04:19.are Suzanne Evans, deputy chairman of Ukip who made us that film,

:04:20. > :04:23.and Alan Johnson, leader of the "Labour in for Britain"

:04:24. > :04:26.campaign, who made us a film about staying in the EU

:04:27. > :04:28.which we showed earlier And we are joined by a group

:04:29. > :04:34.of people all with strong opinions to share on the UK's

:04:35. > :04:43.future in Europe. We'll bring all our studio guests

:04:44. > :04:48.into the discussion in a moment. First, I want to start off with

:04:49. > :04:52.Suzanne and Alan. Thank you very much for your well-argued films. I

:04:53. > :04:56.want to try to get from each of you, if you can, an overarching view, if

:04:57. > :05:01.there was one single issue you would say to people is the reason to stay

:05:02. > :05:04.in or leave? I think I made it very clear in my report, for me it's

:05:05. > :05:07.about democracy. I believe strongly that the people we have the

:05:08. > :05:10.opportunity to vote for and put into power should be the people that

:05:11. > :05:13.govern us and we should have the ability to vote them out at the

:05:14. > :05:17.ballot box at the next election if they don't do a good job. At the

:05:18. > :05:20.moment it works that we have the European Commission in Brussels who

:05:21. > :05:24.make all the rules, the EU Parliament's a sham. The EU

:05:25. > :05:28.Parliament cannot put legislation on the table or repeal any legislation,

:05:29. > :05:33.it's there for show really. If you believe strongly in democracy, I

:05:34. > :05:37.don't think you can see a future for Britain as an undemocratic nation

:05:38. > :05:42.ruled by another foreign power and you should vote to leave. Alan? It's

:05:43. > :05:47.that huge market of 500 million people as the film showed, that's a

:05:48. > :05:57.bigger market than the USA, than China. That market's crucial in an

:05:58. > :06:01.interdependent rule. It's a market that protects people, people's

:06:02. > :06:06.rights. There are rules to protect consumers and the environment.

:06:07. > :06:09.Actually, in this increasingly interdependent world, Britain off

:06:10. > :06:17.none isolation would still have to find a way to trade with Europe and

:06:18. > :06:20.the signs from Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Lichtenstein, they trade

:06:21. > :06:24.with Europe but they have to accept the rules sowe are in the best

:06:25. > :06:28.possible place and if we left, we'd spend time and treasure to get back

:06:29. > :06:35.to the position we are in now. What about the point in Suzanne's report

:06:36. > :06:38.about pig farmers in particular? Yes, Suzanne's charming and a good

:06:39. > :06:43.friend of mine, but I thought that what she was showing there, there

:06:44. > :06:46.was a rule, that Suzanne said herself even when the EU do

:06:47. > :06:50.something right, that's something that needs to be addressed. The

:06:51. > :06:55.principle of having this rule, Suzanne made the point... It's an

:06:56. > :07:01.irrelevant rule. We had the rule back in 1999 before the European

:07:02. > :07:08.Commission. Workers' rights as well, when did we have the first equal pay

:07:09. > :07:12.act in Britain, 1970, three years before the we joined the European

:07:13. > :07:17.Union. If we leave the EU, workers will not lose their rights. We never

:07:18. > :07:22.had the right to paternity and maternity lead. As far as trade is

:07:23. > :07:24.concerned, there are over 60 countries that trade happily with

:07:25. > :07:29.the European Union and they are not members. Of the top ten countries

:07:30. > :07:34.that are the biggest exporters, six don't even have a trade deal. You

:07:35. > :07:37.know as well as I do that the tenth biggest contributor to the European

:07:38. > :07:42.Union in funds is Norway, they are not members of the European Union.

:07:43. > :07:48.They pay into the European, they accept the European Union and every

:07:49. > :07:53.single measure, including free movement and their part of Schengen.

:07:54. > :07:55.Suzanne can't point to a single European country outside the

:07:56. > :07:59.European Union that has not had to accept their rules because that's

:08:00. > :08:03.the only way to trade. That's absolute nonsense. Can you point to

:08:04. > :08:09.a country? All the other that are not members. Like what, Russia? !

:08:10. > :08:14.Russia of course doesn't have to, are you saying it has to abide by

:08:15. > :08:18.the EU rules, of course not. Only 5% of trade businesses trade with the

:08:19. > :08:23.European Union yet all 100% have to abide by the rules which is

:08:24. > :08:32.enormously difficult for businesses and entrepreneurs. I want to just

:08:33. > :08:36.get your thoughts on a point Alan had in his film, the uncertainty for

:08:37. > :08:40.business and big business saying that they're concerned. What is to

:08:41. > :08:45.stop big business deciding if we leave they'll leave too? It's

:08:46. > :08:50.interesting isn't it. These are the big businesses that were saying we

:08:51. > :08:53.must go into the ERM. That was a big disaster that caused one of the

:08:54. > :08:57.biggest recessions. It's r it was big businesses that said if we don't

:08:58. > :09:04.join the euro we won't be able to trade. Big business can afford to

:09:05. > :09:09.pay big money to Brussels lobbyists. Alan could talk about big business

:09:10. > :09:13.leaders that want to stay in the EU, I could point to just as many...

:09:14. > :09:17.That is true and there are a number of hedge funds for instance,

:09:18. > :09:21.financing the leave campaign, they want Britain as an offshore

:09:22. > :09:26.Singapore, no rules, race to the bottom, anything goes. That's not.

:09:27. > :09:32.We are back to project fear again, aren't we? ! Because you have to

:09:33. > :09:43.explain what Britain would look like. 51st state of the American.

:09:44. > :09:48.You don't know what the EU is going to look like if we stay in. I know

:09:49. > :09:54.one thing, you were too young to vote in 75, I was there in 75. We

:09:55. > :09:57.didn't vote to go into the Common Market but the European Economic

:09:58. > :10:02.Community. Political union was part of that and you said then the

:10:03. > :10:08.outside chance there would be one country called Europe. Everyone

:10:09. > :10:12.wants to have a say and I want to talk quickly about migration before

:10:13. > :10:17.we involve everyone else. Is the only way to control migration in

:10:18. > :10:23.this country getting out of the EU? No, we have a points-based system.

:10:24. > :10:27.Free market is central -- free movement is essential. Britain has

:10:28. > :10:30.more people working in developed countries than any other country in

:10:31. > :10:34.the world. There are two million Brits living and working, you walk

:10:35. > :10:39.into a pub in Brussels, all you hear is English accents, so if this is

:10:40. > :10:43.about jobs, free moofment works two ways, so this issue that we can have

:10:44. > :10:44.free movement to go anywhere else we like in the world but they can't

:10:45. > :10:48.have free movement to come like in the world but they can't

:10:49. > :10:54.afraid you are going to have to abide by those rules if you want to

:10:55. > :10:58.trade with Europe and actually, it's not the most fundamental issue, I

:10:59. > :11:03.don't think, for most people. Alan absolutely makes a good point there.

:11:04. > :11:07.While in the European Union we have to abide by the free movement. If

:11:08. > :11:13.David Cameron thinks he's going to get any leeway on that, he's deeply

:11:14. > :11:16.mistaken. Let's bring in the studio audience, Roddy, you are undecided,

:11:17. > :11:20.has anything you have heard this morning changed your mind? I'm in

:11:21. > :11:24.the difficult position that I agree with both. With Alan very much on

:11:25. > :11:29.the economic side, I run a small business, we do trade in Europe, not

:11:30. > :11:36.a great deal but enough, and the free movement of both people and

:11:37. > :11:41.money is extremely useful. But as Suzanne says, the eating away of the

:11:42. > :11:46.democratic process concerns me. So I'll be waiting to see what Mr

:11:47. > :11:53.Cameron brings back from Brussels before I make a final decision. Mava

:11:54. > :11:56.you are undecided? After hearing the arguments, I'm for staying in, just

:11:57. > :12:00.for the cause of the free movement and being able to work abroad and,

:12:01. > :12:04.as a student, I would love to be able to study abroad. We have people

:12:05. > :12:09.in this country who go and live and work in America, they buy property

:12:10. > :12:12.in America. We haven't had to become the 51st state of the United

:12:13. > :12:21.States... You have to apply for a visa. That takes what, half a day?

:12:22. > :12:26.Introduce yourself? Ainsley and I'm very much on Alan's side of the

:12:27. > :12:31.argument. Ukip are essentially racist. For goodness sake... Can I

:12:32. > :12:35.just... ALL SPEAK AT

:12:36. > :12:41.ONCE Let Suzanne just come back on this. One thing that didn't come

:12:42. > :12:49.across in my report was the point I made, is it really fair we have an

:12:50. > :12:53.open door to white Christian countries, yet the system works

:12:54. > :12:56.against the points-based system that Alan talks about for the rest of the

:12:57. > :13:02.world discriminates against black Indian people. The point is you

:13:03. > :13:07.treat... It prioritises white people. That's racist. That is a

:13:08. > :13:12.nonsense. The free movement of people within a huge block allows

:13:13. > :13:16.people to move wherever they want. The points-based system gives fewer

:13:17. > :13:20.options to fewer people. You made an interesting point about nationalism,

:13:21. > :13:24.the idea there's a governing body that sits above Parliament. I would

:13:25. > :13:28.imagine you are in support in the House of Lords reform and against

:13:29. > :13:32.that reform, I would also imagine their a Monarchist and I would also

:13:33. > :13:40.imagine that you agree with an unelected head of state.

:13:41. > :13:49.Hold on. This isn't about personal things, it's about the... The

:13:50. > :13:53.legislative body that sits above the democratically elected Government,

:13:54. > :14:00.the House of Lord is the same and the monarchy isn't. I'm surprised at

:14:01. > :14:04.the democracy argument because every rule that's made in Brussels has to

:14:05. > :14:08.be approved by the European Parliament Which is elected and by

:14:09. > :14:13.the Council of Ministers that consists of elected politicians. The

:14:14. > :14:19.only reason those issues like trade and customs, like fish conservation,

:14:20. > :14:23.are issues for Brussels, is because we aeed that in the treaty. Britain

:14:24. > :14:30.has agreed that -- agreed in the treaty. We shouldn't have done. More

:14:31. > :14:34.of a democratic deficit in this country as a friend here pointed out

:14:35. > :14:38.in terms of issues like the House of Lords, the voting system we both

:14:39. > :14:43.agree on. That is a democratic deficit. Also, look at the amount of

:14:44. > :14:46.good that's been delivered through that nationalism. If you think about

:14:47. > :14:52.all the member states from Eastern Europe had to sign up to the

:14:53. > :15:00.European Convention on Human Rights, that meant homosexuality had to be

:15:01. > :15:03.decriminalised. This super national... David Cameron is having

:15:04. > :15:08.to negotiate with him, it will be interesting to see. In order to

:15:09. > :15:13.join, they had to sign up to legislation that the local public

:15:14. > :15:18.wouldn't have agreed to. It's delivered progress, prosperity and

:15:19. > :15:20.better human rights. I want to bring in some other guests around the

:15:21. > :15:29.table. No sane person would consider

:15:30. > :15:30.breaking up a union of countries that have been in conflict for

:15:31. > :15:44.hundreds of years,... A EU migrant, born in Belgium, lived

:15:45. > :15:49.in the UK for 21 years. Tell us your perspective. I believe this is about

:15:50. > :15:53.British people deciding what will be the law on the streets of Britain. I

:15:54. > :16:00.believe British people should decide what happens here, what is the rules

:16:01. > :16:06.here. I heard Mr Johnson's argument earlier. In the European Parliament,

:16:07. > :16:11.in the last five years, five out of six proposals, the British MEPs

:16:12. > :16:16.voted against, and were outvoted and the proposals went ahead,

:16:17. > :16:19.regardless, and became law. In the Council of ministers, we are

:16:20. > :16:26.routinely outvoted. There is majority voting and qualified voting

:16:27. > :16:30.on a large number of issues and we are routinely outvoted. It is about

:16:31. > :16:35.self-determination. I came to this country 21 years ago, I integrated,

:16:36. > :16:39.I became British and I now have the view that is what I think is the

:16:40. > :16:43.view of most people in this country, we should be in charge of our own

:16:44. > :16:49.destiny and laws. It should not be decided by a majority in Spain, in

:16:50. > :16:52.Hungary, France... Let me say, as you know, the only specific issue

:16:53. > :16:57.set out in the treaties that are decided in Brussels are those issues

:16:58. > :17:04.on trade, customs, eurozone countries. We agreed to every one of

:17:05. > :17:08.those in the treaty. You are talking as if we debate issues like the

:17:09. > :17:14.voting age in Europe, like our policing system. We don't. We decide

:17:15. > :17:20.all of that in Parliament. You explained the terrible situation in

:17:21. > :17:24.Norway, countries such as Singapore, presumably Switzerland, they are in

:17:25. > :17:29.the same position. What a terrible fate, to be like Norway, Switzerland

:17:30. > :17:36.and Singapore, some of the richest countries in the world. Except in

:17:37. > :17:44.every single European Union rule. -- accepting. They accept order

:17:45. > :17:50.decisions you talk about, they have not a single say in them. Not a

:17:51. > :17:55.single influence. They let us stay in the European Union. Because that

:17:56. > :17:57.is where those countries are. In everything except they have no

:17:58. > :18:17.influence on the laws. Rosa is a EU migrant and you think

:18:18. > :18:23.we should stay? I am originally from Spain, I studied in Spain, the

:18:24. > :18:27.Spanish government paid for my university education. I moved to

:18:28. > :18:31.London 15 years ago, I have been working for 15 years, I have a nice

:18:32. > :18:35.job, I have been paying for my taxes. I was sad to see the video

:18:36. > :18:40.that presents migrants as people coming here looking for benefits. I

:18:41. > :18:46.don't believe that. That is the message I got. I have paid very high

:18:47. > :18:52.taxes for 15 years. I can count on this hand how many times I have used

:18:53. > :19:00.GP services. I contributed to this economy. I pay taxes and I also,

:19:01. > :19:04.politicians like Alan, they have made it possible, for us to be in

:19:05. > :19:11.the European Union. I think it is such a backwards... To such against

:19:12. > :19:14.progress, does not make sense. I am sure you are a better contributed

:19:15. > :19:20.than the English that live on the Costa Del Sol in retirement homes

:19:21. > :19:25.and don't contribute very much. Helen, you want to leave the EU,

:19:26. > :19:28.why? I think it is interesting, what you are saying, talking about

:19:29. > :19:32.business and democracy. One of the biggest problems with the EU is the

:19:33. > :19:35.total lack of transparency in the organisation. They have nothing like

:19:36. > :19:40.what we have with the Freedom of Information Act, one of the most

:19:41. > :19:42.important bastions of our democracy. That means things like research that

:19:43. > :19:49.I have looked at recently, one of the biggest recipients of grants is

:19:50. > :19:52.Coca-Cola. We think that these are going to helping normal people, but

:19:53. > :20:01.it is actually helping big businesses who would be here anyway,

:20:02. > :20:08.they don't need subsidies. Animal welfare, as well, animal welfare. It

:20:09. > :20:16.was one of the most disappointing thing is in my life, that they pay

:20:17. > :20:21.out to Coca-Cola, but students living abroad, took three months for

:20:22. > :20:23.me to get my grant. If you disappointing. It's a fair point on

:20:24. > :20:27.transparency. Nobody is saying there are things that do not need to be

:20:28. > :20:31.reformed in Europe. We have been talking about things that need to be

:20:32. > :20:35.reformed here in this country. There is no perfect institution. Greater

:20:36. > :20:39.transparency would be excellent. It would massively help, especially

:20:40. > :20:41.things like the European Commission, which is a completely unnecessary

:20:42. > :20:44.organisation. In the British Parliament, we don't need

:20:45. > :20:53.bureaucrats sitting around and thinking of new laws. We do, they

:20:54. > :20:59.are all in Whitehall. Jonathan? I think it is a difficult issue. I

:21:00. > :21:03.agree that the EU institutions are very bureaucratic, and there is a

:21:04. > :21:07.lot of waste there. But I think that is something that needs to be

:21:08. > :21:11.reformed. Having a four point policy I want this, this and this all we

:21:12. > :21:16.are out, is not the right way to reform. I just want to touch on some

:21:17. > :21:20.of the vague economic claims that Susannah is making. You touched on

:21:21. > :21:26.entrepreneurs and start-up businesses. I do have a starter

:21:27. > :21:30.business. You say only 5% of British businesses trade with the EU. My

:21:31. > :21:34.business, we do much more trade with the US. However, what you need to

:21:35. > :21:37.build a business, particularly in the early stage, you need people

:21:38. > :21:40.that are willing to take a risk and invest in you with a chance that the

:21:41. > :21:45.money is going to disappear. You also need people to carry out the

:21:46. > :21:49.jobs. As a business, we are not based in London, my business and the

:21:50. > :21:52.majority of my team is based in Newcastle. There is not the same

:21:53. > :21:56.access to private investment in the north-east as there is here,

:21:57. > :22:00.particularly for the earliest stage start-up businesses. What we get

:22:01. > :22:09.from the EU, the European investment bank and the E RDF, funds that allow

:22:10. > :22:16.venture capitalists organisations that impressed with the backing of

:22:17. > :22:21.investment. -- invest. My business and not be here without that fund,

:22:22. > :22:25.it has resulted in matched funding from other individuals. Where you're

:22:26. > :22:28.getting money from is not the EU, you're getting it from European

:22:29. > :22:33.Union member state tax payers. It is not the EU's money, it is tax payer

:22:34. > :22:37.money. One of the interviews I did for the report that was cut from the

:22:38. > :22:41.final report was with the leader of Kent County Council. He gets grants

:22:42. > :22:45.from the EU and he was saying, frankly, sometimes, the conditions

:22:46. > :22:50.put on them, they are so difficult to enforce you might as well not

:22:51. > :22:53.have the money. If we leave the European Union, we could still

:22:54. > :22:56.invest in businesses like your start-up, and we would all be glad

:22:57. > :23:00.to see that happen. But without the red tape, without going through the

:23:01. > :23:03.middleman, without the middleman associated costs and without the

:23:04. > :23:13.kind of restrictions and regulations that the EU, just because it likes

:23:14. > :23:58.to meddle, sticks on them. A quick response? The whole point of this is

:23:59. > :23:58.that we agree, this idea that Europe is something that is something done

:23:59. > :24:53.to Britain. We have agreed that the structural

:24:54. > :25:05.Of course you can't. For goodness sake. The top ten countries export.

:25:06. > :25:17.50% of our exports are to Europe. We can only do that through a trade

:25:18. > :25:21.agreement. Iceland can't, Lichtenstein can't without signing

:25:22. > :25:24.up. Sorry, let me just tell you, everyone's entitled to their own

:25:25. > :25:27.due, no-one's entitled toe their own facts. You... Trade with Europe

:25:28. > :25:33.without a trade agreement. If you pull out. We knew this. You are

:25:34. > :25:37.going to have to renegotiate. Russia, Brazil, China Japan, the USA

:25:38. > :25:42.trade without an agreement. Sorry, we are right out of time. We knew

:25:43. > :25:46.this would be a heated debate. It has been.

:25:47. > :25:49.Thank you all very much. If you want to see the films again

:25:50. > :25:55.or missed either of them, they are on the website.

:25:56. > :26:05.Thank you for joining us today. Still to come: lifestyle over luck.

:26:06. > :26:10.A new report says poor lifestyle is a factor in up to 90% of cancers. We

:26:11. > :26:13.speak to one cancer expert. And the curious Case of a British backpacker

:26:14. > :26:27.lost and found in Thailand. The Prime Minister is expected to

:26:28. > :26:29.beat opposition to his plans to curb benefits for EU migrants at a

:26:30. > :26:33.meeting of European leaders later. It is one of a number of reforms

:26:34. > :26:38.that David Cameron is hoping to secure ahead of a referendum on

:26:39. > :26:40.Britain's's EU membership. Earlier, the President of the European

:26:41. > :26:52.Commission said he wanted a fair deal for Britain and the EU. This

:26:53. > :26:57.dialogue, which will be a negotiation, in an open-minded way,

:26:58. > :27:03.I don't want the British to leave. The British have their points, we

:27:04. > :27:07.have our points. We will find their way out of the complicated situation

:27:08. > :27:12.we are in. A new study in the United States has concluded up to 90% of

:27:13. > :27:15.all cancers are caused by environmental and lifestyle factors

:27:16. > :27:19.such as smoking. The challenge is a report earlier this year that

:27:20. > :27:24.indicated that most cancers were the result of random cell mutation.

:27:25. > :27:28.Seven former paratroopers have won a legal battle to avoid being detained

:27:29. > :27:33.and transferred to Northern Ireland to be questioned about the Bloody

:27:34. > :27:36.Sunday killings in 1972. Lawyers for the ex-soldiers argued that there

:27:37. > :27:40.was a danger their lives were repacked unnecessarily at risk.

:27:41. > :27:44.Instead, there will be interviewed in England or Wales. A British

:27:45. > :27:48.tourist reported missing by his family has been found walking on a

:27:49. > :27:52.beach in southern Thailand. Jordan Jacobs, 21, was due to fly home

:27:53. > :27:56.today. His family launched an appeal after becoming concerned for his

:27:57. > :28:01.safety. The Government says it is cutting subsidies for solar panels

:28:02. > :28:06.on homes by 64%. In the summer, ministers proposed a reduction of

:28:07. > :28:07.87%. Industry figures say the concession does not go far enough.

:28:08. > :28:12.Let's catch up with the sport. The morning's main headlines:

:28:13. > :28:18.Children as young as five will be targeted as part of a new Government

:28:19. > :28:21.strategy to involve more people It means Sport England will now

:28:22. > :28:25.spread its ?1 billion pound more widely and the Premier League

:28:26. > :28:27.will double its BBC Sport understands Dylan Hartley

:28:28. > :28:33.is being lined up as the favourite to replace Chris Robshaw

:28:34. > :28:35.as England's Rugby Union captain. Eddie Jones is said to want

:28:36. > :28:39.a more confrontational leader. Spurs have had planning permission

:28:40. > :28:43.for a new 61,000 seater stadium granted on the site of their current

:28:44. > :28:46.ground, White Hart Lane. The development will include a hotel

:28:47. > :28:49.and medical centre - the club are hopeful it will be

:28:50. > :28:51.complete for the start And AP McCoy will been honoured

:28:52. > :28:56.with a Lifetime Achievement Award at Sunday's BBC Sports Personality

:28:57. > :29:00.of the Year ceremony in Belfast. The 20-time Champion Jockey won

:29:01. > :29:03.the main award in 2010 And that's all the sport for now,

:29:04. > :29:08.but I'll have more on BBC News throughout the day,

:29:09. > :29:23.including a big day Can you prevent yourself getting

:29:24. > :29:26.cancer? A new study suggests that environmental factors and lifestyle

:29:27. > :29:29.choices have a bigger role to play in contracting the disease than

:29:30. > :29:34.previously thought. The research from the United States says up to

:29:35. > :29:38.90% of all cancer is due to external factors such as smoking or drinking

:29:39. > :29:41.too much alcohol. It challenges a report earlier this year that

:29:42. > :29:49.indicated most cancers were down to bad luck and the result of random

:29:50. > :29:55.cell mutation. Carol is a cancer specialist who joins me via webcam.

:29:56. > :30:02.What do you think about this? I think there are two sides to it. The

:30:03. > :30:09.real answer is in the middle. Cancer is a statistical disease. As we

:30:10. > :30:13.live, we accumulate cell damage, which can sometimes turn into

:30:14. > :30:18.abnormal growth which becomes cancerous. So, two things. First,

:30:19. > :30:22.there is the statistical chance, all the time, that we are going to get

:30:23. > :30:25.cancer, however perfect our lifestyle. But we increase the

:30:26. > :30:29.chance of getting cancer if we do certain things such as smoking, not

:30:30. > :30:35.eating fruit and vegetables, getting too fat, not doing enough exercise

:30:36. > :30:38.and so on. We know this. How you do the calculation depends on the

:30:39. > :30:42.results you get. I think 90% is probably a little high. It is

:30:43. > :30:48.probably 70 or 80% caused by lifetime. The older we live, and it

:30:49. > :30:52.is great we have many people living to be 90, the more chance we get

:30:53. > :30:53.cancer. That is why cancer is going up in Britain and all Western

:30:54. > :31:05.countries. Whether you peg the statistic at 90%

:31:06. > :31:08.or between 70 and 80% as you do, how many of those potentially wouldn't

:31:09. > :31:13.get cancer at all? Statistically a third of them wouldn't if we all led

:31:14. > :31:16.a perfect lifestyle and we all know the messages, they are very boring

:31:17. > :31:19.and it's very difficult to convince people because it's not just doing

:31:20. > :31:26.it for a week or a weekend, you've got to do it for 50 or 50 years and

:31:27. > :31:31.the longer, as owe wet older, there is an increased chance there'll be

:31:32. > :31:35.mutation and change in cells -- 40 or 50 years. To try to avoid this,

:31:36. > :31:40.we have to be perfect about our lifestyle. I'm not perfect myself by

:31:41. > :31:44.any means, I know that, but I do try and getting that message over is

:31:45. > :31:49.really important. It's a long-term public health message to get over.

:31:50. > :31:54.Are there many cancers that are purely genetic? There are some

:31:55. > :31:58.inherited cancers. We have absolutely no control of your genes,

:31:59. > :32:02.how you have been passed them down by your mother and father and they

:32:03. > :32:05.have no control on that, so it's like a poker game where you are

:32:06. > :32:09.given a set of cards and there's nothing you can do about that. But

:32:10. > :32:14.even with that, you can reduce the chances, say you come from a family

:32:15. > :32:18.with a very high instance of breast cancer, so - sorry about that - high

:32:19. > :32:23.incidence of breast cancer, it's clear that what you have to do there

:32:24. > :32:28.is look at lifestyle, diet and so on, even more importantly. Thank you

:32:29. > :32:32.very much Professor. The Russian President, Vladimir

:32:33. > :32:35.Putin, says the Syrian people should hold elections to decide who rules

:32:36. > :32:38.them. Speaking at a news conference in Moscow, Vladimir Putin said

:32:39. > :32:43.Russia will continue air strikes in Syria for as long as the Syrian Army

:32:44. > :32:50.continues its own military operations.

:32:51. > :33:00.TRANSLATION: We shall never agree that somebody from the outside

:33:01. > :33:10.wherever would really impose their views on how you should run the

:33:11. > :33:14.country. It's not common-sense and of course I spoke with John Kerry

:33:15. > :33:20.about it and our position is unchanged and our position is a

:33:21. > :33:24.principled position - the Syrian people must decide who will rule

:33:25. > :33:32.them. Let's go to our correspondent who is

:33:33. > :33:37.in Moscow. O what do you make of his comments on Syria, Oleg? They were

:33:38. > :33:41.more peaceful than usual because normally Vladimir Putin stresses the

:33:42. > :33:46.contradictions in approach of the West versus Russia. Here, he was

:33:47. > :33:50.talking rather a lot about the latest American proposals for the

:33:51. > :33:54.United Nations Resolution and he said this is broadly in alliance

:33:55. > :34:00.with the Russian position. He hopes there will be a path to new

:34:01. > :34:04.elections, developing some sort of electoral Meg name which will be

:34:05. > :34:08.transparent by all sides of the Syrian conflict and saying that

:34:09. > :34:13.generally here Russia and America are agreeing, so maybe there is some

:34:14. > :34:17.hope. Is there any suggestion of any real

:34:18. > :34:23.change then in Russian policy? Well, I wouldn't go that far. He says

:34:24. > :34:27.they'll continue to support Syrian Army and, of course, as usual,

:34:28. > :34:32.Vladimir Putin does not accept that somebody can conduct operations in

:34:33. > :34:39.Syria without getting the permission of Syria's authority, so in

:34:40. > :34:43.fundamentals, the position hasn't changed but the diplomacy is the art

:34:44. > :34:48.of negotiating the fundamentals. This is his annual address to the

:34:49. > :34:52.nation. What else has he been talking about?

:34:53. > :34:59.Well, he's back into the economics of Russia, the press conference has

:35:00. > :35:07.started about the talks of crisis, about the toll that the crisis puts

:35:08. > :35:10.on the Russian population. He was asked rather elaborately on the

:35:11. > :35:16.latest corruption scandal and anyone who followed knew this was a scandal

:35:17. > :35:20.involving the Russian family of the Russian Prosecutor General, Mr Putin

:35:21. > :35:23.was asked if it was time to act now. Here his reply was lacklustre, he

:35:24. > :35:29.said, thank you for bringing our attention to it, we are paying

:35:30. > :35:34.attention to it, but essentially no conclusion of a pretty damning

:35:35. > :35:39.report on this. How closely watched will this be in Russia? I doubt

:35:40. > :35:43.anyone of the Russian population stays ghueed to the TV scents for

:35:44. > :35:49.two hours watching this, but it's well promoted. It never normally

:35:50. > :35:54.brings any sensations. This is Vladimir Putin with his art of

:35:55. > :35:59.either showering numbers over the audience explaining the economy or

:36:00. > :36:02.skilfully turning away from the uncomfortable questions or again

:36:03. > :36:06.expressing his views on foreign policy. We haven't heard any big

:36:07. > :36:11.sensation so far, I doubt any will come now. Is this more than speaking

:36:12. > :36:15.to people outside of Russia? This is generally to the people inside of

:36:16. > :36:20.Russia and to compensate Russian and foreign media who're being kept on

:36:21. > :36:23.rather strict diet as far as access to Mr Putin goes, he does speak

:36:24. > :36:26.rarely and so this is their chance to ask questions, not necessarily to

:36:27. > :36:33.get the proper answers. Thank you very much.

:36:34. > :36:36.In the last half hour, it's been confirmed a British backpacker

:36:37. > :36:40.reported missing by family in Thailand has been found safe and

:36:41. > :36:45.well. The incident is a mystery and we don't have the details about what

:36:46. > :36:51.happened. It started when the family of Jordan Jacobs who is 21 issued a

:36:52. > :36:55.desperate plea for help after receiving a distressing phone call

:36:56. > :36:59.from him in which he said he was being held against his will and they

:37:00. > :37:02.would never see him again. Jonathan Head is in Bangkok. This has been

:37:03. > :37:08.quite a turnaround because it was all sounding very dramatic. Tell us

:37:09. > :37:11.what has happened? The message is that Jordan Jacobs' family got from

:37:12. > :37:14.him a phone call and Facebook message where I think to say the

:37:15. > :37:18.least alarming referring to something in his past that had

:37:19. > :37:22.caught up with him, being with a man he described that everything being

:37:23. > :37:28.afraid of this man and the man wouldn't allow him to go and stating

:37:29. > :37:32.that he'd never see them again. Slightly rambling messages as well.

:37:33. > :37:37.It wasn't clear how clear-headed he was when he wrote them. His mother

:37:38. > :37:43.was crying when he rang up. She managed to contact the restaurant

:37:44. > :37:48.where he was phoning from. The Cypriot man who lent the phone

:37:49. > :37:51.described him in a state not having any shoes or possessions when he

:37:52. > :37:55.made the call. Since the weekend, they'd heard nothing from him so

:37:56. > :38:00.they were understandably extremely alarmed. We were set to go down

:38:01. > :38:03.there. Things do happen to tourists here in Thailand, there are a lot of

:38:04. > :38:07.them and mishaps happen. As it happens, the police have been

:38:08. > :38:14.looking for him and found him strolling on the beach in Ko Pi Pi

:38:15. > :38:16.apparently unaware that people were looking for him and relatively

:38:17. > :38:22.unaware about what he must have said to his parents. We have seen the

:38:23. > :38:26.photographs and it's definitely him. At least Liz family will be very

:38:27. > :38:32.relieved now but nobody knows why he was issuing the desperate calls if a

:38:33. > :38:34.few days later he appears to be enjoying his holiday. What is going

:38:35. > :38:45.to happen because I think he was supposed to be flying back to UK

:38:46. > :38:50.today wasn't he? Yes, he's been travelling, typically in a gap year,

:38:51. > :38:57.he was in Australia and he told the Thai police, you know, they said why

:38:58. > :39:01.should you have contacted my family, I'm still enjoying myself so he had

:39:02. > :39:06.decided he was going to stay a bit longer. I imagine his mum might have

:39:07. > :39:12.something to say about keeping in touch with folks at home, but he'll

:39:13. > :39:14.be in touch with his parents. He appears to be in perfect health with

:39:15. > :39:19.no problems. Thank you very much.

:39:20. > :39:22.Let's just bring you some comments on what is happening with Europe

:39:23. > :39:28.after our very lively studio discussion earlier. Handley split up

:39:29. > :39:32.for you in three comments that are pro, three that are against. Forbes

:39:33. > :39:38.on Facebook, we need to stay but with reform and it can't be reformed

:39:39. > :39:43.if we leave it needs something. Stu on Facebook, it would be short

:39:44. > :39:48.sighted to leave the EU when we rely heavily on trade and workforce from

:39:49. > :39:52.the EU. We import more than we export and Mr Cameron is telling

:39:53. > :39:58.lies when he says we can get the same deal with the EU but outside of

:39:59. > :40:02.its jurisdiction, businesses would suffer increased overheads which

:40:03. > :40:07.would be put on consumers making the EU more expensive to live in. If the

:40:08. > :40:11.UK decides to leave, how can those who want to stay in become EU

:40:12. > :40:15.citizens of the world and not a fascist island? And three against,

:40:16. > :40:21.Melanie, I think it's time to leave the EU is far more than its original

:40:22. > :40:27.intentions and continues to take more from member states while not

:40:28. > :40:33.being democratlically elected. The EI wants our money. It costs ?55

:40:34. > :40:38.million a day to stay in the EU, money we need to boost us into the

:40:39. > :40:43.21st century. Graham says the EU is beyond the level of reform needed to

:40:44. > :40:46.stop it turning into a state with increasing membership far from

:40:47. > :40:49.rigorous financial controls and it's doomed to failure.

:40:50. > :40:53.The European Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said EU

:40:54. > :40:57.leaders will find a way out of the complex situation created by David

:40:58. > :40:59.Cameron's demand for changes to Britain's relationship with the

:41:00. > :41:05.union. He was speaking ahead of talks in Brussels.

:41:06. > :41:09.As far as the so-called Brexit question is concerned, we'll have a

:41:10. > :41:21.frank and open debate, the first time that it will be a debate with

:41:22. > :41:26.substantial material of what is called the exit. The British Prime

:41:27. > :41:32.Minister will explain. I'm not a spokesman of the British Government,

:41:33. > :41:38.so we'll leave it to his responsibility to make this clear to

:41:39. > :41:42.the outside world. As far as the Commission is concerned, even during

:41:43. > :41:48.the campaign, we have been both running for the presidency of the

:41:49. > :41:52.commission. I made it clear, as did Martin, that we want this fair deal

:41:53. > :41:58.with Britain and it has to be fair deal for the other 27 too, so we are

:41:59. > :42:03.open-minded and we are engaging in this dialogue which will be a

:42:04. > :42:09.negotiation with Britain in open-minded ways. I don't want the

:42:10. > :42:12.British to leave and I don't want to blame the British. They have their

:42:13. > :42:17.points, we have our points and that's reasonable. We'll find a way

:42:18. > :42:20.out of the complicated situation we are in.

:42:21. > :42:23.More coverage of the talks on BBC News throughout the day and you can

:42:24. > :42:29.watch the films made for us by Labour's Alan Johnson and Ukip's

:42:30. > :42:34.Suzanne Evans on the programme page. Some amazing pictures for you of a

:42:35. > :42:38.diver swimming between two continents. There's only place on

:42:39. > :42:44.the plane ewhere it's possible to do that in Iceland. The space is so

:42:45. > :43:38.narrow that you can touch Europe and North America at once.

:43:39. > :43:52.I'll be back from 9. 15 tomorrow morning here on BBC Two, the BBC

:43:53. > :43:55.News Channel and online. Have a great day, see you tomorrow. Bye.