01/02/2016

:00:07. > :00:09.I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:10. > :00:15.Nearly ?5,000 on clothes, hundreds of pounds on trainers,

:00:16. > :00:19.spas at health resorts and a first class ticket to New York -

:00:20. > :00:22.just some of the stuff individual clients at Kids Company were given,

:00:23. > :00:25.according to a new report by MPs which blames an "extraordinary

:00:26. > :00:29.catalogue of failures" for the collapse of the charity.

:00:30. > :00:35.I'm not sorry I bought the kids nice things.

:00:36. > :00:43.The only thing I'm sorry about is I didn't raise enough money.

:00:44. > :00:47.A second inquest into the death of a teenage army recruit

:00:48. > :00:50.at Deepcut Barracks more than 20 years ago opens today.

:00:51. > :00:52.The father of 18-year-old Private Cheryl James tells us

:00:53. > :01:07.It is the last chance, and that is why I have said that on the appeal

:01:08. > :01:11.full if these people don't have the courage to step up and speak now, I

:01:12. > :01:13.don't think they will have another chance.

:01:14. > :01:15.And we'll meet two young transgender men who've recently returned

:01:16. > :01:18.to their home country of Jamaica to reveal their new identities

:01:19. > :01:34.We're on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:01:35. > :01:36.Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:01:37. > :01:41.And, as always, we want to hear from you on all the stories

:01:42. > :01:47.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:01:48. > :01:49.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:01:50. > :01:55.you are via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:01:56. > :02:01.First this morning, there was an "extraordinary

:02:02. > :02:03.catalogue of failures of governance and control at every level" -

:02:04. > :02:06.that's what a committee of MPs has concluded about the collapse of Kids

:02:07. > :02:09.They blame those running the charity, auditors,

:02:10. > :02:11.regulators and Government ministers and say that Government

:02:12. > :02:16.money was released in an "unjustifiable" way.

:02:17. > :02:20.There are a number of claims in the report about the amount

:02:21. > :02:24.of money that was dished out to some of the kids and young adults that

:02:25. > :02:29.One person was given more than ?4,700 to spend on clothes

:02:30. > :02:35.Someone else was bought shoes which cost ?305.

:02:36. > :02:37.But it wasn't just assistance with the wardrobe.

:02:38. > :02:40.Some who came to Kids Company were given special spa treatments

:02:41. > :02:41.at the luxury health resort Champneys.

:02:42. > :02:46.It was even claimed that they splashed out on first

:02:47. > :02:49.class flight for one client to go see his girlfriend in New York

:02:50. > :02:53.and for somebody else to fly to Ibiza.

:02:54. > :02:55.The former trustees of Kids Company have condemned the report

:02:56. > :03:00.as inaccurate, unbalanced and irresponsible.

:03:01. > :03:04.for an interview this morning, but she's declined.

:03:05. > :03:08.We also approached BBC presenter Alan Yentob,

:03:09. > :03:11.who was the chair of Kids Company trustees,

:03:12. > :03:23.On Wednesday evening you will be able to watch

:03:24. > :03:32.In her own words - in a documentary on bbc one called

:03:33. > :03:33.'Camila's Kids Company: The Inside Story' -

:03:34. > :03:42.It's a good question, who's to blame.

:03:43. > :03:51.That the media, the politicians, engaged in.

:03:52. > :03:56.And I was supposed to be killed off.

:03:57. > :04:13.I'm not sorry I gave the kids money, I'm not sorry I bought them nice

:04:14. > :04:18.things, I'm not sorry I fought for them.

:04:19. > :04:21.The only thing I'm sorry about, I didn't raise enough money.

:04:22. > :04:26.What do you want me to be sorry about?

:04:27. > :05:05.I'm trying every which way to save our staff's jobs.

:05:06. > :05:08.I'm hoping, through a campaign, I can turn redundancy money,

:05:09. > :05:16.that they might give, into money to continue running.

:05:17. > :05:19.Because the amount they're giving, to make the staff redundant,

:05:20. > :05:24.is exactly what I need to be able to continue.

:05:25. > :05:26.You're going to be doing something behind the scenes?

:05:27. > :05:44.Because if you're asking me, the correct law is to take care

:05:45. > :05:55.If the law of the land is not correct, we have

:05:56. > :06:10.It's a chess game, I'm playing chess with psychopaths.

:06:11. > :06:13.Someone might think, you're an equally big nutter!

:06:14. > :06:25.But my nuttiness is in the service of children so it's OK!

:06:26. > :06:28.You can see that programme in full on Wednesday at 9pm.

:06:29. > :06:30.With us here in the studio to discuss this further

:06:31. > :06:32.is Bernard Jenkin, the Conservative MP who chairs

:06:33. > :06:34.the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee

:06:35. > :06:45.Esther Kellen, who was Kids Company director of services

:06:46. > :06:54.And Ka-Hal Morrow, whose son benefited

:06:55. > :07:06.You saw Camila Batmanghelidjh saying she is not sorry forgiving the kids

:07:07. > :07:11.nice things. What you think? She had a fantastic mission. She had great

:07:12. > :07:16.vision. But she must've been very to work with. If you are running a

:07:17. > :07:20.large charity, you have to have some discipline. You have to be able to

:07:21. > :07:25.work with others and accept the discipline of others, and you have

:07:26. > :07:29.to accept that you are not the big deal, the big deal is the reputation

:07:30. > :07:34.of the charity, the security of the finances of the charity and every

:07:35. > :07:40.body has got to work as a team, and I think the trustees gave themselves

:07:41. > :07:45.an impossible job I taking this person on, and there was one trusty

:07:46. > :07:52.that fought and fought to try to bring some financial sense to this,

:07:53. > :07:56.he resigned in March. I think there are many, many lessons the trustees

:07:57. > :08:01.of many charities, because very often, the founder of a charity is a

:08:02. > :08:05.powerful and charismatic Alison, but as the charity grows, particularly

:08:06. > :08:11.if it is taking on responsibility for so many employees in so many

:08:12. > :08:14.vulnerable people, one of the things we were recommending is that Ofsted

:08:15. > :08:19.should inspect all youth charities. Ofsted came into this charity once

:08:20. > :08:23.and was never invited back again because it was probably going to

:08:24. > :08:28.make some uncomfortable truthss available, which people didn't want

:08:29. > :08:34.to hear. When you say it was never invited back again, is it down to

:08:35. > :08:37.charities to invite them? There is no kind of formal inspection, and

:08:38. > :08:42.maybe that should change, particularly if Government is

:08:43. > :08:46.handing out large sums of money to charity is looking after vulnerable

:08:47. > :08:50.people. You talk about an extraordinary catalogue of failures

:08:51. > :08:57.of governance and control at every level, trustees, auditors,

:08:58. > :09:01.regulators, Government. In the end, who should have been putting their

:09:02. > :09:07.hand up and sorting this out? You mentioned there was one trusty but

:09:08. > :09:14.that trusty resigned. It is very hard for the chair of the trustees,

:09:15. > :09:19.but unfortunately, in any organisation, the chair sets the

:09:20. > :09:23.tone, and this was Alan Yentob, and he will feel terribly blamed this

:09:24. > :09:29.morning for this report. It is not about blame, it is about learning.

:09:30. > :09:33.Clearly there was a lack of sufficient understanding on the

:09:34. > :09:39.trustees about what this charity was about. There was no psychotherapist

:09:40. > :09:41.or psychologist on the trustees, and yet this was an organisation the

:09:42. > :09:48.delivered therapy and psychological care. There was no expert from the

:09:49. > :09:51.youth sector on the trustees, and yet this was delivering critical

:09:52. > :09:55.services in the youth sector. These are the sort of lessons that

:09:56. > :09:59.trustees of other charities need to learn, that they need to have the

:10:00. > :10:05.breadth of skills available to them, and they need to be able to have the

:10:06. > :10:07.conversations, there should be an organisation in which employees who

:10:08. > :10:14.feel concerned about things can raise things right up to the trustee

:10:15. > :10:20.level. And the sense we got was that things were not talked about. Before

:10:21. > :10:23.we move on, you said that this shouldn't be about blame but about

:10:24. > :10:28.learning, but you have also said that you don't think these

:10:29. > :10:32.charities, these trustees should be able to be trustees in the future?

:10:33. > :10:37.We are making an issue of support here, that somebody should

:10:38. > :10:42.adjudicate. We have disqualification of company directors in company law,

:10:43. > :10:47.and in fact the charities commission is taking on new powers to be able

:10:48. > :10:52.to disqualify charity trustees in the same way. What we say is we

:10:53. > :10:57.welcome that. We are not making any judgment about any individual

:10:58. > :11:00.trustee in this case, that would not be fast. But you think that what

:11:01. > :11:06.went on here should be enough to prevent these trustees being

:11:07. > :11:13.trustees again? No, we are not saying that. We are not a court. We

:11:14. > :11:16.can't adjudicate on that. What we are pointing out is what should have

:11:17. > :11:20.been known, what should have been learned while the charity was

:11:21. > :11:23.capable of surviving and was not learned, and the learning goes to

:11:24. > :11:26.the Charity Commission, to the firms of advisers. The accountant told us

:11:27. > :11:30.this charity was living on a knife edge. That wasn't really apparent

:11:31. > :11:35.from the audit letters that he produced every year for the charity.

:11:36. > :11:39.That message should have been taken to the charity trustees year after

:11:40. > :11:43.year, you cannot go on like. Why were there no reserves in the

:11:44. > :11:46.charity? Partly because the policy of the charity was to spend the

:11:47. > :11:50.money as soon as it came in, that is why she was always running out of

:11:51. > :11:54.money, because she just spent it and nobody could control what she spent.

:11:55. > :11:59.Very distressing for people working in the charity who were doing so

:12:00. > :12:04.much good work for children and vulnerable young adults, and I think

:12:05. > :12:11.the other thing we have tried not to lose in our report is this charity

:12:12. > :12:14.wasn't just a disaster. It was filling a very important gap, and I

:12:15. > :12:19.think the Government needs to take that on as well and carry on funding

:12:20. > :12:23.charities this sector. We are going to speak to someone who

:12:24. > :12:26.has benefited in just a moment, but just a word on others who you have

:12:27. > :12:32.basically said failed here effectively. Government giving a

:12:33. > :12:43.huge amount of money to Kids Company. ?42 million over ten years.

:12:44. > :12:47.Could you point your finger at? The chief executive had the ability to

:12:48. > :12:52.impress Ministers and finish up on platforms with prime Ministers,

:12:53. > :12:59.attending the Conservative Party conference, and she made her charity

:13:00. > :13:02.very important to successive Government Looe, and that obviously

:13:03. > :13:10.distorted the perception of government. Other charities feel

:13:11. > :13:13.bitterly angry that someone could walk into Downing Street and just

:13:14. > :13:16.pull this money out of the Government when they had to fill in

:13:17. > :13:20.forms and go through the competitive process. I'm afraid the word we use

:13:21. > :13:25.is unethical. What we're recommending is that where a charity

:13:26. > :13:30.executive has formed a close relationship or a political

:13:31. > :13:34.relationship with ministers, those ministers should not be involved in

:13:35. > :13:38.making decisions about funding for such a charity. They should recuse

:13:39. > :13:41.themselves, it is called conflict-of-interest, in the same

:13:42. > :13:47.way that we are not really happy that Alan Yentob's

:13:48. > :13:52.conflict-of-interest were addressed properly by the BBC Trust, but one

:13:53. > :13:58.of my colleagues has described it as absolution by resignation. Somehow,

:13:59. > :14:05.something in the BBC governance has been brushed under the carpet by the

:14:06. > :14:09.departure of Mr Yentob, when really it is a similar situation, a

:14:10. > :14:13.long-standing senior executive, widely respected, nobody wants to

:14:14. > :14:16.challenge him, but how did he finish up in a studio looking over the

:14:17. > :14:20.shoulder of the producer while Camila Batmanghelidjh was being

:14:21. > :14:23.interviewed, and nobody has suggested that really the output of

:14:24. > :14:28.the BBC was distorted by that, but what is the attitude in the senior

:14:29. > :14:32.management of the BBC that allowed that to occur, made it seem all

:14:33. > :14:35.right to him? And that is a matter for the trustees of the BBC. What

:14:36. > :14:46.Matt let's go to somebody who's family

:14:47. > :14:50.did benefit. Case Morrow, your nine-year-old son did benefit from

:14:51. > :14:57.counselling through Kids Company. What is your perspective? I think it

:14:58. > :15:00.is a tragedy that it has closed. I can't comment on the broader

:15:01. > :15:06.picture, but as a parent, what they did was fantastic. About this time

:15:07. > :15:12.last year, my son had basically a nervous breakdown, and Kids Company,

:15:13. > :15:17.we had somebody on site who was just amazing stop she provided

:15:18. > :15:21.unconditional love, therapy, support. The school are brilliant as

:15:22. > :15:26.well, but Kids Company were outside of that, and the kids saw that. This

:15:27. > :15:30.time last year, my son said the only people he trusted were me and his

:15:31. > :15:34.teddy bears, and six month later, he said the only people he trusted were

:15:35. > :15:38.me, his teddy bears and the lady from Kids Company. And is that helps

:15:39. > :15:52.that you couldn't have got from anywhere else? Social services were

:15:53. > :15:57.fabulous. Camhs were involved, they provide mental health services. But

:15:58. > :16:02.the support that she gave was amazing.

:16:03. > :16:10.Esther Kellen, do you think this report is fair? I think it is fair

:16:11. > :16:15.to a large extent. The good work that Kids Company has been doing has

:16:16. > :16:20.been recognised, which was reiterated by that parents just now.

:16:21. > :16:23.We must not forget that. Today is a difficult day for all the young

:16:24. > :16:27.people served by Kids Company and the staff who have lost their jobs

:16:28. > :16:31.as a result of it. I was slightly anxious about the finances a year

:16:32. > :16:37.ago in November when we were paid late and I realised there were no

:16:38. > :16:45.reserves. Asking questions about its just was not the done thing. What do

:16:46. > :16:50.you mean by that? Was that the perception that you had? Did you try

:16:51. > :16:55.and raise it and find out that was the case? Yes, I tried to raise it

:16:56. > :17:02.and I was reassured. Don't worry, I will get the money. Who did you

:17:03. > :17:06.raise it with? I asked Camilla about the money and the director of

:17:07. > :17:11.finance about the late payment of the salaries and the directors of

:17:12. > :17:16.HR. What can we do about this? But we were reassured that Camilla would

:17:17. > :17:23.pull the magic out of the hat and make sure that the money was there.

:17:24. > :17:33.In retrospect, do you wish you had taken those concerns further? Yes, I

:17:34. > :17:37.expect so. Maybe I should have. In Bristol I only ever saw two trustees

:17:38. > :17:42.visiting the organisation in Bristol. We did have 100 staff in

:17:43. > :17:46.Bristol and six sites. I would have liked it if the trustees had taken

:17:47. > :17:50.more interested in what we were doing over here. In a way we were

:17:51. > :18:00.quite separate from the London set up, you know. We ran quite a tight

:18:01. > :18:08.ship, I would say. Explain that. I knew where every penny went. We were

:18:09. > :18:12.not handing out money to young people as has been suggested in

:18:13. > :18:19.media reports. Every penny was accounted for. Were you spending

:18:20. > :18:23.large sums of money on clothing and shoes and first-class tickets? We

:18:24. > :18:28.were not, absolutely not. I felt that was not the right thing to do.

:18:29. > :18:34.What we did do was provide food bags for children and young people on the

:18:35. > :18:37.Friday. If somebody had a hole in their shoes and it was raining

:18:38. > :18:42.outside and there was no other pair of shoes, I might take them to a

:18:43. > :18:46.cheap shoe shop and buy them a pair of shoes, because you and I do not

:18:47. > :18:50.want to walk around with shoes with holes in. I think there is nothing

:18:51. > :18:55.wrong with buying a young person a pair of shoes but it would be a

:18:56. > :19:00.cheap pair from a cheap shot. People getting in touch on this one. This

:19:01. > :19:05.tweet, it disturbing that the Government is more concerned about

:19:06. > :19:10.the finances of Kids Company than the Google accounts. What do you say

:19:11. > :19:14.to that? Well, I show people's concern about the Google accounts. I

:19:15. > :19:18.am struck that the Italians have got more money from Google than we have

:19:19. > :19:23.but that is not the responsibility of my committee. I can understand

:19:24. > :19:27.why people are feeling that. John says I expect she is not sorry for

:19:28. > :19:30.buying things for children but she should be sorry for the way she

:19:31. > :19:36.managed the company with the taxpayers' money she was given. And

:19:37. > :19:40.this tweet, we need to support families. Charities and their

:19:41. > :19:49.founders should not be untouchable. I should say that Camilla

:19:50. > :19:52.Batmanghelidjh said your report was bias and rumour and the only

:19:53. > :19:59.rigorous fact based investigation was with the police. The police need

:20:00. > :20:03.evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. She is referring to the

:20:04. > :20:09.unsubstantiated allegations of sexual misconduct, which were the

:20:10. > :20:13.straw that broke the camel's back at the end of the life of the charity.

:20:14. > :20:16.We do not rely on police investigations for the safeguarding

:20:17. > :20:23.of children in schools or in residential homes. There is proper

:20:24. > :20:26.inspection. That is why one of the lessons here is that there needs to

:20:27. > :20:33.be proper inspection of charities like Kids Company, perhaps by Ofsted

:20:34. > :20:37.or the Care Quality Commission of the NHS, to make sure there is

:20:38. > :20:41.proper safeguarding. The lack of a prosecution is not sufficient

:20:42. > :20:44.assurance that safeguarding was sufficient in this charity. Do you

:20:45. > :20:52.believe that lessons have actually been learned and anything will

:20:53. > :20:58.change as a result? This report into Kids Company and our report last

:20:59. > :21:02.week into fundraising by some charities... I think this has been a

:21:03. > :21:06.very tough year for high profile large charities. It has done a lot

:21:07. > :21:14.of damage to the reputation of charities. These two events. I am

:21:15. > :21:17.sure that charity trustees and the charities commission and the

:21:18. > :21:23.Government are already learning. We are going to have a new fundraising

:21:24. > :21:25.regulator for example. The whole attitude of the Charity commission

:21:26. > :21:31.will be transformed by this. The real message to charity trustees is

:21:32. > :21:36.that you cannot rely on anybody else. There is no substitute for

:21:37. > :21:41.your own judgment as a trustee. And if you depend upon others to mark

:21:42. > :21:45.your homework then you are not a good charity trustee. You should be

:21:46. > :21:48.satisfied in your own heart and conscience that you know what is

:21:49. > :21:52.going on in your charity, that people trust you, there is a

:21:53. > :21:57.trusting atmosphere. You heard just now that there was not an atmosphere

:21:58. > :22:01.of trust in Kids Company. The trustees must have known that. The

:22:02. > :22:09.meetings of trustees must have been stilted and rather on relaxed

:22:10. > :22:13.occasions. -- unrelaxed occasions. If that is happening there must be

:22:14. > :22:17.something deeply wrong. The organisations are therefore trustees

:22:18. > :22:21.to go to them when they need help. To say they are not happy about the

:22:22. > :22:25.way charity is being run and they need help. That should be perfectly

:22:26. > :22:29.legitimate. Maybe the charities commission needs more powers to

:22:30. > :22:33.support trustees in their role. Thank you. And thank you for your

:22:34. > :22:48.comments on that as well. Thank you for joining us today. Still to come:

:22:49. > :22:54.We meet two young transgender men who have recently returned to their

:22:55. > :22:57.home country of Jamaica to reveal their new identities to their

:22:58. > :23:03.families and we will find out how they got on. First, summary of the

:23:04. > :23:07.main news this morning. MPs investigating the charity

:23:08. > :23:09.Kids Company say an extraordinary catalogue of failures led

:23:10. > :23:12.to its collapse last year. Their report blames those

:23:13. > :23:13.running the charity, its trustees, auditors,

:23:14. > :23:18.regulators and ministers. Its former chief executive,

:23:19. > :23:20.Camilla Batmanghelidjh, has called the document

:23:21. > :23:38.a product of bias and rumour. Earlier chair of MPs spoke to us.

:23:39. > :23:42.The policy was to spend the money as soon as it came in and this is why

:23:43. > :23:46.they ran out of money because she just spent it. Nobody could control

:23:47. > :23:50.what they spend. Very distressing for people working in the charity

:23:51. > :23:51.who were doing so much good work for children and vulnerable young

:23:52. > :23:53.adults. David Cameron and European Council

:23:54. > :23:56.President Donald Tusk are set for a day of talks about the UK's

:23:57. > :23:59.renegotiated membership of the EU today, which Mr Tusk has

:24:00. > :24:01.described as crucial. A meeting last night

:24:02. > :24:03.ended without a deal, though a Downing Street source said

:24:04. > :24:05.there had been a breakthrough on restricting benefits

:24:06. > :24:09.for EU migrants. A new inquest will open this

:24:10. > :24:12.afternoon into the death of a teenage soldier

:24:13. > :24:16.at Deepcut Barracks, Private Cheryl James was one of four

:24:17. > :24:21.young recruits to die at the Surrey The inquest will hear

:24:22. > :24:35.evidence from her father. I don't underestimate it and I wish

:24:36. > :24:40.we could just get on with it. I am not in the least fazed by it. It is

:24:41. > :24:43.time the stories were told in a court to be properly addressed.

:24:44. > :24:48.America's presidential hopefuls face their first electoral test

:24:49. > :24:50.tonight with a series of votes in Iowa.

:24:51. > :24:53.The mid-western state will be the first to choose who should be

:24:54. > :24:55.the candidates from both the Republican and Democratic

:24:56. > :25:07.Polls suggest both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton hold narrow

:25:08. > :25:12.The World Health Organisation will hold an emergency meeting today

:25:13. > :25:14.to decide if the outbreak of the Zika virus should be declared

:25:15. > :25:18.The mosquito-borne virus which has been linked to thousands of severe

:25:19. > :25:22.birth defects in Brazil could affect up to 4 million people this year.

:25:23. > :25:25.Books of condolence will be opened for Sir Terry Wogan this morning

:25:26. > :25:29.He died after a short illness yesterday at the age of 77.

:25:30. > :25:32.The mayor said the books would allow people to pay tribute

:25:33. > :25:37.to a true son of Limerick and a broadcasting institution.

:25:38. > :25:47.Now we can catch up with all of the sport. News of John Terry's future

:25:48. > :25:51.at Chelsea? Bring us up to date. Yes, not much of the future because

:25:52. > :25:54.the Chelsea captain has just a few months left in English football, it

:25:55. > :25:58.looks like. He says the club will not renew his contract and he will

:25:59. > :26:02.look to play abroad at the end of the season. But the club says that

:26:03. > :26:06.situation is pretty fluid and it could change. He could be off today

:26:07. > :26:13.of course. Very unlikely but the transfer window is still open until

:26:14. > :26:17.tonight. Premier League spending is set to break ?1 billion in a single

:26:18. > :26:20.season for the first time. It looks like a tug-of-war already today over

:26:21. > :26:25.at Saido Berahino, the West Brom striker. That is an early story on

:26:26. > :26:30.what is always a frantic day at the BBC Sport Centre. Newcastle bid ?21

:26:31. > :26:34.million for the striker yesterday and Stoke could be after him as

:26:35. > :26:38.well. We will see how that develops. Matt Elliott is with me just after

:26:39. > :26:41.ten o'clock, the former Leicester and Scotland defender, to talk all

:26:42. > :26:49.things football and you can talk about Johanna Konta as well if he

:26:50. > :26:53.likes but I doubt it. She had a fantastic run at the Australian Open

:26:54. > :26:59.but she has left the Fed Cup tree in a hole because she has withdrawn

:27:00. > :27:04.from the trip to Israel with an intestinal problem. I will have that

:27:05. > :27:07.and more stories just after ten o'clock. Thank you.

:27:08. > :27:11.Talks between David Cameron and the European Council President,

:27:12. > :27:13.Donald Tusk, about stopping benefits for migrants from the rest

:27:14. > :27:18.of the EU, have ended without agreement.

:27:19. > :27:25.The negotiations resume today and the next 24 hours have been

:27:26. > :27:29.described as crucial. Our political guru Norman Smith is here to tell us

:27:30. > :27:35.the latest. One newspaper said there had been a breakthrough and others

:27:36. > :27:40.are saying no. Maybe in 24 hours so give us clarity. What we can say is

:27:41. > :27:44.we are reaching Showtime in terms of the negotiations. David Cameron

:27:45. > :27:49.clearly wants to get this nailed down quickly. He does not want its

:27:50. > :27:53.dragging on for ever and a day. He would like to have the referendum

:27:54. > :27:57.this year, in part because he does not want his whole second term as

:27:58. > :28:01.Prime Minister to be totally overshadowed by the ongoing European

:28:02. > :28:06.saga. Though he has been meeting a whole load of people over the past

:28:07. > :28:11.24 hours to try and get some kind of deal together. Last night he met

:28:12. > :28:15.this chap here. This is Donald Tusk, former Prime Minister of Poland, now

:28:16. > :28:19.the President of the EU Council, a pivotal figure in the whole process.

:28:20. > :28:23.He is the man who will have to pull the paper together that will contain

:28:24. > :28:27.the deal that David Cameron wants to get. He was not sounding that of

:28:28. > :28:35.sadistic when he left last night. He was saying no deal and the next 24

:28:36. > :28:39.hours are critical. -- he was not sounding optimistic. But team

:28:40. > :28:43.Cameron was feeling more optimistic. They think it is possible that a

:28:44. > :28:48.package could be published tomorrow. They could be on course for that

:28:49. > :28:51.February council meeting with the referendum later in the year in

:28:52. > :28:58.June. So what are the key sticking points? I suppose the big one we all

:28:59. > :29:04.know about its benefits, restricting the access of EU migrants to in work

:29:05. > :29:07.benefits. You will have heard a lot about the emergency brake, the sort

:29:08. > :29:10.of thing you want your son or daughter to have when they are

:29:11. > :29:16.taking driving lessons. But it is not that. It would enable the UK to

:29:17. > :29:19.stop paying in work benefits to new EU migrants for up to four years

:29:20. > :29:24.because the level of immigration to Britain was deemed to be so high.

:29:25. > :29:27.Downing Street say that is a significant breakthrough which they

:29:28. > :29:43.managed to have achieved and they have got the agreement

:29:44. > :29:47.of the EU commission on it. However we have no idea how long it will

:29:48. > :29:50.last for. Four years, five, six, is it is stopgap measure? We don't know

:29:51. > :29:52.how you would trigger the emergency brake when all other countries have

:29:53. > :29:55.got to vote for it and crucially everybody else has got to agree to

:29:56. > :29:57.it. Countries like Poland are decidedly iffy about curbs on

:29:58. > :29:59.benefits. But David Cameron is quite enthusiastic about it and this is

:30:00. > :30:02.what he said before yesterday's dinner. There is no deal done but we

:30:03. > :30:06.have made progress. There is still a long way to go that one instance of

:30:07. > :30:10.progress is that for a long time I have said we have got to have a

:30:11. > :30:26.system where you do not get benefits out of the system until you

:30:27. > :30:30.pay into our system. We want to end the idea of something for nothing.

:30:31. > :30:33.People said that was impossible and there is now a proposal on the

:30:34. > :30:36.table. It is not good enough and it needs more work but we are making

:30:37. > :30:38.progress. What other trouble on the undergrowth is there? Another key

:30:39. > :30:40.area that David Cameron wants to sort out is the whole issue of

:30:41. > :30:43.protecting non-Euro countries. The concern of David Cameron and George

:30:44. > :30:45.Osborne is that the single currency club gang up on stuff up Tour of

:30:46. > :30:50.Britain and other non-Euro countries and push us around. -- poor old

:30:51. > :30:57.Britain. If there was a deal that Britain did not like the look of, we

:30:58. > :31:00.could say hang on, we need a full European Council meeting to decide

:31:01. > :31:03.it. Why that matters is that agreement at council meetings has

:31:04. > :31:10.got to be unanimous, so what that would give for Britain is info

:31:11. > :31:13.effect a veto. Not everybody is thrilled about that, particularly

:31:14. > :31:18.the French, not happy. That will be difficult to get an agreement on.

:31:19. > :31:27.What else? Exempting Britain from ever closer union.

:31:28. > :31:33.We don't want that because we are not interested in a United States of

:31:34. > :31:38.Europe, because Mr Cameron is looking for some sort of language to

:31:39. > :31:42.give us an opt out. Restoring competitiveness in the EU. Who is

:31:43. > :31:48.going to disagree with that? You could probably get a deal there

:31:49. > :31:50.without too much sweat, that is trying to reduce regulation, getting

:31:51. > :31:56.more liberalisation of the internal market in terms of services. You

:31:57. > :31:59.will probably get a deal on that. When you listen to the President of

:32:00. > :32:04.the Council, he is saying good progress is being made. But a

:32:05. > :32:08.warning. A couple of things one has to bear in mind. This is

:32:09. > :32:11.extraordinarily complicated, and just talking to one body in Downing

:32:12. > :32:16.Street last night, he said Steven was coming out of the ears of people

:32:17. > :32:19.trying to pull it is so difficult to get all of this wrapped up and

:32:20. > :32:27.legally watertight, and above all what is legally difficult is getting

:32:28. > :32:32.everyone to agree to a hugely controversial proposal. So, some way

:32:33. > :32:36.to go yet, Joanna. Good stuff, lots of clarity there.

:32:37. > :32:39.Well, let's speak to two Tory MPs with two different view

:32:40. > :32:43.Damian Green wants to stay in the EU - while Anne Marie Trevelyan wants

:32:44. > :32:52.Damian, would you stay what may, or is it predicated on him getting what

:32:53. > :32:57.he wants on those points? There are two stages, that Britain does

:32:58. > :33:00.benefit hugely, we are safer and stronger inside the European Union,

:33:01. > :33:07.but absolutely, the union needs to reform. All the substantial and

:33:08. > :33:11.difficult things that normal was talking about a worthwhile, and it

:33:12. > :33:14.would make it even more worth while Britain's Damian, which is why I'm

:33:15. > :33:20.so pleased they appear to be making aggressor. Even if he gets nowhere?

:33:21. > :33:27.He isn't going to get nowhere, he has already got somewhere. It does

:33:28. > :33:30.seem that those who said this was impossible have been proved wrong,

:33:31. > :33:33.and those who said this wasn't substantial, that he wasn't asking

:33:34. > :33:38.for much are also being proved wrong. These are serious

:33:39. > :33:54.negotiations on serious subjects. Adam Reach rebellion, you want out.

:33:55. > :33:56.-- Annemarie Trevelyan. It was a very limited attempt at a

:33:57. > :34:00.renegotiation. I think the British people really want to be in a wide

:34:01. > :34:04.trading relationship. I was four years old when most people voted

:34:05. > :34:07.last time, but people say they want something that is trading, that is

:34:08. > :34:13.eyed woodworking, that doesn't restrict us. It isn't about more

:34:14. > :34:16.competitiveness within the EU. Written is a global country, and I

:34:17. > :34:21.want us to be free to be to expand how we trade and have relationships

:34:22. > :34:24.across the world, not being sucked into the small part of the only

:34:25. > :34:28.unfailing currency union in the world. We can do better than that,

:34:29. > :34:32.but we need to take control of so many more decisions, and I think the

:34:33. > :34:37.PM hasn't had the opportunity to ask for more. He asked for what he might

:34:38. > :34:42.be able to negotiate, but we are seeing this belligerent behaviour on

:34:43. > :34:45.the migrant edifice issue. If he is an able to persuade the Eurocrats

:34:46. > :34:49.that this is important to the British people, how can we rely on

:34:50. > :34:50.them to bring together the 27 other countries who would need to give us

:34:51. > :34:54.the support to get those countries who would need to give us

:34:55. > :34:59.that we absolutely must have for the British people's future? Damian

:35:00. > :35:04.Green, talks between Donald Tusk and David Cameron at the moment, but

:35:05. > :35:09.other countries need to agree. Absolutely, this is a difficult and

:35:10. > :35:12.serious negotiation. Where she and I disagree is when she says we should

:35:13. > :35:17.stop caring about Europe and care about the rest of the world, but the

:35:18. > :35:21.two are not mutually extensive. You don't make it easier to export to

:35:22. > :35:24.China by making it more difficult export to Germany and France, any

:35:25. > :35:29.company will want to do both, so being of a group of friendly

:35:30. > :35:35.democracies, which is what they all are, and our neighbours, seems

:35:36. > :35:37.perfectly sensible. Pulling out of that, particularly at a time when

:35:38. > :35:40.the world is so dangerous, would send exactly the wrong signal around

:35:41. > :35:46.the world, it would say that Britain was pulling back from its

:35:47. > :35:50.international obligations. It would cheer up Vladimir Putin and those

:35:51. > :35:56.who hate democracy. Western democracies need to stick together.

:35:57. > :36:02.From a security point of view, we are part of Nato and our security is

:36:03. > :36:06.not predicated on our currency union within the EU. That is where the

:36:07. > :36:13.federal direction is going, and if we were to stay within an outer

:36:14. > :36:14.ring, remix the two up. From a security perspective, the

:36:15. > :36:19.internationalisation and the challenges that we have with

:36:20. > :36:22.terrorism, it is global. This isn't about one small EU pocket of the

:36:23. > :36:27.world, and if written could take back control and maintain good

:36:28. > :36:30.trading relationships, I completely disagree with the position that

:36:31. > :36:37.there will somehow be an end to trade. It will be more difficult if

:36:38. > :36:40.we're not part of a single market. There is a huge trade in both

:36:41. > :36:44.directions, nobody will shut those doors, but I don't see why Britain

:36:45. > :36:47.can't be more positive and outward looking if we can't see strong

:36:48. > :36:52.positive messages coming from Europe which say that we understand that

:36:53. > :36:56.Britain is a maritime nation, it is different needs to a different

:36:57. > :37:00.relationship than the one that hasn't been going on in the

:37:01. > :37:06.direction for us. Just to clarify what you mean on that. There is a

:37:07. > :37:11.huge amount of trade. Why hasn't it been working? It is, but even if we

:37:12. > :37:16.vote to leave and take back control of our nation and our borders and

:37:17. > :37:20.taxation and all those issues which are subsumed by the directives that

:37:21. > :37:24.we are all part of the moment, which I think is a drag on Britain and a

:37:25. > :37:27.permanent frustration to so many people I talk to every day, that we

:37:28. > :37:32.can't find a good trading relationship between Great Britain,

:37:33. > :37:39.the European framework in whatever developing road it takes towards a

:37:40. > :37:43.federal Europe, that we can she continued to sell cars to us, we

:37:44. > :37:50.want to sell whiskey to the French, that will continue. You have both

:37:51. > :37:55.focused on trade. Migration, and the changes to benefits, will it make a

:37:56. > :37:58.difference? I think people draw a distinction between people who come

:37:59. > :38:02.here to work and people who come here to claim benefits. And this is

:38:03. > :38:07.precisely what he is try to deal with. The two islet, because

:38:08. > :38:11.countries like Norway that have a relationship with Europe as

:38:12. > :38:17.described by Anne-Marie still have to have free movement of people, so

:38:18. > :38:20.she achieved her way, we would still probably have the same level of

:38:21. > :38:26.migration, so it is a complete smoke screen to say it would solve that

:38:27. > :38:29.problem. The frustration of watching Donald Tusk and the difficulty of

:38:30. > :38:35.his negotiations, this is still this emergency brake, it strikes me as a

:38:36. > :38:40.nothing, because it is still saying that Europeans would decide if we

:38:41. > :38:44.can have it. The message that the British people want to get through

:38:45. > :38:47.to the European leaders is that Britain needs to take control of its

:38:48. > :38:51.borders, that is not saying that we would still want a German nurse Broc

:38:52. > :38:57.Parkes doctor, because we might need those in our NHS what we train our

:38:58. > :39:02.own, but we must be able to determine it for ourselves. Why can

:39:03. > :39:06.we not taking a Sierra Leone doctor who wants to come in Britain Agazzi

:39:07. > :39:09.as family here? We can't because our numbers are so high already that the

:39:10. > :39:17.European movement limits how we determine who comes in, and we need

:39:18. > :39:20.to be to do that. Thank you both very much. We will no doubt get you

:39:21. > :39:34.back in the months ahead. Still to come: We

:39:35. > :39:55.speak to the father of Private Cheryl Jones,

:39:56. > :39:57.who died of a gunshot wound aged 18 He's to give evidence at the second

:39:58. > :40:12.inquest into her death more than 20 Some of your comments coming in,

:40:13. > :40:19.let's not forget the bankers and the regulators, Kids Company trustees

:40:20. > :40:20.should be banned from being trustees of further charities. Now let's have

:40:21. > :40:32.a weather up eight with Carol. It is pretty stormy. This picture

:40:33. > :40:34.was sent in yesterday by one of our weather Watchers, huge waves

:40:35. > :40:40.crashing against the shoreline of Cumbria. Today some of us will see

:40:41. > :40:46.that very scenario, because storm Henry is going to be battering our

:40:47. > :40:49.shores. It is game to be windy right across the British Isles, the

:40:50. > :40:54.strongest winds in the North of England. If we take a look at some

:40:55. > :41:04.of the gusts that you can expect as we go through the course of the day,

:41:05. > :41:09.we are looking at in excess of 40, 50, 60, even 80 mph. It will be a

:41:10. > :41:14.nasty rush-hour across the central lowlands. But it is really with

:41:15. > :41:19.exposure in the West, so the Outer Hebrides, the Western Isles, gusts

:41:20. > :41:28.to 90 mph, and this is where the Met office has an amber be prepared

:41:29. > :41:32.warning. To put it into context, we see gusts of 90 miles an hour at

:41:33. > :41:36.lower levels roughly once a Troisi, and we have already had that on

:41:37. > :41:42.Friday and we are expecting it again later today full of on Friday we had

:41:43. > :41:49.Storm Gertrude, and Shetland saw a gust of wind at 101 mph. With wind

:41:50. > :41:55.speeds up to that level, it will cause structural damage, there will

:41:56. > :42:00.be trees uprooted, branches on the road, and large waves which could

:42:01. > :42:02.lead to some coastal flooding. The wind will continue to strengthen

:42:03. > :42:08.through the day, peaking for some later this afternoon, for others

:42:09. > :42:12.this evening and maintaining a strong feel as we go through the

:42:13. > :42:16.course of the night. Today's forecast, as well as increasing wind

:42:17. > :42:19.strength, we have a lot of cloud and rain around, pushing down towards

:42:20. > :42:26.the size, leaving brighter skies behind. Some of the showers

:42:27. > :42:29.especially across Scotland will be wintry in the mountains, and a lower

:42:30. > :42:35.level we will see a mixture of hail, sleet and snow. As we go through the

:42:36. > :42:41.evening and overnight, the strongest winds prevail. We are looking in

:42:42. > :42:44.Scotland this afternoon at pretty gusty winds, and look at those

:42:45. > :42:50.temperatures, they are coming down as we go through the course of the

:42:51. > :42:52.day rather than up. Continuing to strengthen in Scotland, Northern

:42:53. > :42:55.Ireland and northern England. If you are travelling on some of the higher

:42:56. > :42:59.routes, for example lack Trans Pennine routes, and you are in a

:43:00. > :43:10.high sided or light vehicle, bear that in mind full. Across Wales, the

:43:11. > :43:15.winds will be strong but not as noticeable. Into the evening, these

:43:16. > :43:19.are the kind of wind speed levels we are looking at. Nasty travelling

:43:20. > :43:25.conditions, especially with exposure and in western Scotland where we are

:43:26. > :43:28.looking at gusts of up to 90 mph. Through the evening and overnight,

:43:29. > :43:31.we continue with the strong winds, it will be a colder nights than the

:43:32. > :43:34.one just gone, the rain clearing eventually from the south coast of

:43:35. > :43:38.England but remaining across the Channel Island, and tomorrow morning

:43:39. > :43:43.we will have very strong winds, so do expect some disruption.

:43:44. > :43:46.Disruption likely later today, tonight and tomorrow morning

:43:47. > :43:49.anywhere from North of England northwards, and tomorrow morning

:43:50. > :43:54.will still be blowing a gale across the central lowlands for the

:43:55. > :43:58.rush-hour full up tomorrow is a day of sunshine and showers once again,

:43:59. > :44:00.blustery winds for England and Wales, but the wind is slowly

:44:01. > :44:03.starting to ease in the North through the course of the day, and

:44:04. > :44:10.once again we will be looking at wintry showers.

:44:11. > :44:24.a second inquest into the death of a teenage army recruit 20 years ago

:44:25. > :44:30.opens again today. The father of Private Cheryl Jones tells us he

:44:31. > :44:34.wants answers. It is the last chance, and that is what I have said

:44:35. > :44:39.on the appeal, if these people don't have the courage to step up and

:44:40. > :44:41.speak now, that I don't think they will have another chance.

:44:42. > :44:45.Lots of you have been getting in touch about Kids Company, a new

:44:46. > :44:50.report blames an extraordinary catalogue of failures for the

:44:51. > :44:54.collapse of the charity. The policy of the charity was to spend the

:44:55. > :44:57.money as soon as it came in, that is why she was was running out of money

:44:58. > :45:03.because she just spent it, and nobody could control what she spent.

:45:04. > :45:05.Plus MPs are debating changes to winning's pensioners today which

:45:06. > :45:10.could set up to half a million women working for longer and retiring on

:45:11. > :45:16.less than they were expecting. We will debate the changes with dew MPs

:45:17. > :45:19.shortly. And we will meet two young transgender men who have recently

:45:20. > :45:20.returned home to Jamaica to reveal their new identities to their

:45:21. > :45:31.families. Now a summary of the main news this

:45:32. > :45:34.morning. We start with some breaking news, because just hearing that UK

:45:35. > :45:39.scientists have been given the go-ahead to genetically modify human

:45:40. > :45:44.embryos for the first time. It is hoped the research will help

:45:45. > :45:48.understand the genes human embryos need to develop successfully.

:45:49. > :45:52.Experiments will take place on embryos in the first week after

:45:53. > :45:58.fertilisation, and could help to combat infertility and miscarriages.

:45:59. > :46:01.MPs investigated the charity Kids Company say an extra robbery

:46:02. > :46:04.catalogue of failures led to its collapse last year. The report

:46:05. > :46:10.blames those running the charity, its Trustees, auditors, regulators

:46:11. > :46:12.and ministers. Its former chief executive Camila Batmanghelidjh has

:46:13. > :46:16.called the document a product of bias and rumour. Earlier, the chair

:46:17. > :46:27.of the group of MPs buying the report had this to say: I think she

:46:28. > :46:34.had a fantastic commission, great vision, but she must have been very

:46:35. > :46:39.difficult to work with. If you are running a large charity, you have to

:46:40. > :46:42.work with some discipline. You have to accept others, except the

:46:43. > :46:45.discipline of others, except that you are not the big deal.

:46:46. > :46:48.David Cameron and European Council President Donald Tusk are set

:46:49. > :46:50.for a day of talks about renegotiating the UK's relationship

:46:51. > :46:53.with the EU today, which Mr Tusk has described as crucial.

:46:54. > :46:55.A meeting last night ended without a deal,

:46:56. > :46:57.though a Downing Street source said there had been a breakthrough

:46:58. > :47:08.on restricting benefits for EU migrants.

:47:09. > :47:10.The World Health Organisation will hold an emergency meeting today

:47:11. > :47:13.to decide if the outbreak of the Zika virus should be

:47:14. > :47:16.The mosquito-borne virus, which has been linked to thousands

:47:17. > :47:19.of severe birth defects in Brazil, could affect up to 4 million

:47:20. > :47:23.Books of condolence will be opened for Sir Terry Wogan this morning

:47:24. > :47:27.He died after a short illness yesterday at the age of 77.

:47:28. > :47:31.The mayor said the books would allow people to pay tribute to a true son

:47:32. > :47:36.of Limerick and a broadcasting institution.

:47:37. > :47:45.Now we can catch up with the sport. Olly Foster as the latest on John

:47:46. > :47:50.Terry's future at Chelsea and the transfer window. After spending his

:47:51. > :47:53.whole career at Stamford Bridge, John Terry, the Chelsea captain,

:47:54. > :47:57.announced he would be leaving the club at the end of the season

:47:58. > :48:01.because they will not renew his contract. Let's bring in the former

:48:02. > :48:07.Leicester and Scotland defender Matt Elliot. You played against John

:48:08. > :48:13.Terry at Stamford Bridge. Captain, leader, legend, it says. Comment

:48:14. > :48:17.saying that it would be stupid to let him go. He is a massive name,

:48:18. > :48:22.and everything that is good about Chelsea over the period of his

:48:23. > :48:27.career. The timing of the statement has surprised people as well, in the

:48:28. > :48:31.middle of the transfer window. A lot of Chelsea fans will be disappointed

:48:32. > :48:36.because it seems like an end of an era and John Terry's time at the

:48:37. > :48:40.club seems to be coming to an end. Slightly muddying the waters, the

:48:41. > :48:53.club has released their own statement, saying dialogue is

:48:54. > :48:57.still open and nothing is on the table at the moment but that might

:48:58. > :49:00.change with a new manager coming in in the summer, but I suppose John

:49:01. > :49:02.Terry cannot wait that long if he has a couple of years left in him.

:49:03. > :49:05.Different factors come into play. Another manager coming in, does John

:49:06. > :49:09.Terry want to stay at the club? Is it a negotiation tactic? Does he

:49:10. > :49:12.want to look to the other side of the Atlantic to America? It is a

:49:13. > :49:20.popular place these days. We will hear more about this subject when we

:49:21. > :49:23.get a final result. Transfer deadline day closes at 11 o'clock

:49:24. > :49:29.for the Premier League and midnight in Scotland. Spending in the Premier

:49:30. > :49:35.League this season could exceed ?1 billion for the first time, which is

:49:36. > :49:40.eye-watering. Yes, crazy times, but it is a natural evolution in some

:49:41. > :49:48.ways. The amount of money that is at stake and the rewards are enormous

:49:49. > :49:51.these days. You see that in the fact it is predominantly the bottom

:49:52. > :49:58.clubs, the teams in the lower regions of the league, then

:49:59. > :50:01.Norwichs, Bournemouths and Newcastles are the primary spenders.

:50:02. > :50:08.Arsenal have not really delved. Leicester are having a little dabble

:50:09. > :50:12.and looking to bring someone in. Newcastle are after Saido Berahino

:50:13. > :50:18.from West Brom, digging in their heels, and they have blocked the

:50:19. > :50:24.move to Tottenham Hotspur. Is he worst ?21 million? Debatable but he

:50:25. > :50:28.is a goal-scorer and worth a lot of money. Financial rewards could come

:50:29. > :50:33.in next season for Newcastle and Tottenham. If West Brom want to keep

:50:34. > :50:39.him, they cannot keep him on the terms that he is at the moment. A

:50:40. > :50:47.Catch-22 situation. Thank you your thoughts. 13 hours until we find out

:50:48. > :50:57.which players are going where. Across the BBC there is the transfer

:50:58. > :51:06.deadline special. At 11:15pm and also on BBC five live, and we have

:51:07. > :51:10.just got time to tell you that Johanna Konta has pulled out of the

:51:11. > :51:16.Fed cup team, Judy Murray's team, because of an intestinal problem.

:51:17. > :51:20.She had that great run in the Australian Open, getting to the

:51:21. > :51:24.semifinals, but she has left the team in a hole because they were

:51:25. > :51:26.banking on her to anchor the team in Israel this week. That is a

:51:27. > :51:38.disappointment. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We are on

:51:39. > :51:43.the BBC News Channel and BBC Two and online until 11 o'clock this morning

:51:44. > :51:46.and we will bring you breaking news stories including more information

:51:47. > :51:52.on scientists being given permission to genetically modify and human

:51:53. > :51:57.embryos for the first time in the UK. And more on the collapse of Kids

:51:58. > :52:01.Company and the report blaming a catalogue of errors. I worked for

:52:02. > :52:05.drama therapist for Kids Company going into schools all over London

:52:06. > :52:08.doing workshops for a few years and the administration was absolutely

:52:09. > :52:12.appalling. I would always chase that my invoices and I was paid late

:52:13. > :52:15.every time I work for them. There was a high turnover of staff and I

:52:16. > :52:19.never spoke to the same person twice. It seemed like chaos. I still

:52:20. > :52:37.have an outstanding amount owed to me, which

:52:38. > :52:39.is not insubstantial, especially considering I am a working mother of

:52:40. > :52:42.three, and there are lots of therapists who remain unpaid and we

:52:43. > :52:45.have got to write off the losses because we don't know how to extract

:52:46. > :52:47.the money. And this one, the Charity Commission must have more teeth. And

:52:48. > :52:50.Ian tweets, I hope there are audits of other charities to see exactly

:52:51. > :52:52.where any incoming money goes. Thank you for all of your comments and

:52:53. > :52:56.please keep in touch. Text messages will be charged at the standard

:52:57. > :52:59.network rate. Wherever you are, you can watch the programme online

:53:00. > :53:01.through the BBC News app or the website.

:53:02. > :53:04.A new inquest will open today into the death of a teenage army

:53:05. > :53:06.recruit at Deepcut Barracks 20 years ago.

:53:07. > :53:09.18 year old Private Cheryl James was found with a single bullet wound

:53:10. > :53:19.Four young recruits died there between 1995 and 2002.

:53:20. > :53:23.There was a brief inquest three weeks

:53:24. > :53:26.after Private James' death which recorded an open verdict.

:53:27. > :53:28.In 2002 Surrey Police began an investigation into all four

:53:29. > :53:31.deaths at the base and found no evidence of foul play.

:53:32. > :53:34.In 2014 her parents won the right to a new inquest.

:53:35. > :53:37.Our correspondent June Kelly has been speaking to her father Des

:53:38. > :53:53.Cheryl was very bright from an early age. She quickly picked things up.

:53:54. > :53:59.She did really well in her junior school. She was always bubbly, the

:54:00. > :54:06.centre of attention, a terrible giggler. She was impossible to tell

:54:07. > :54:10.off from a very early age, until she died actually. Whenever I try to put

:54:11. > :54:16.the stern face on and tell her off, she would just giggle. It was so

:54:17. > :54:19.difficult. She couldn't help it. She just carried on doing it and in the

:54:20. > :54:27.end we would all burst out laughing. That is a really good memory. What

:54:28. > :54:32.about the weeks before her death? Again, she spent the majority of

:54:33. > :54:38.their time... She was only at Deepcut Barracks for five weeks. At

:54:39. > :54:42.that time she was coming home and there was nothing noticeable. We

:54:43. > :54:52.certainly didn't detect anything. God knows we have relived those

:54:53. > :54:55.visits. My wife had away. She could tell. If she was worried about

:54:56. > :55:02.something, she would spot it, you know. Then she didn't come home as

:55:03. > :55:07.often from the other barracks because she was settling in and

:55:08. > :55:18.having a good time, we guessed. Then what happened was at the end of her

:55:19. > :55:23.time at Leconfield, when she passed her HGV licence, the last time we

:55:24. > :55:32.saw her was on the 22nd of October that year. She had her 18th birthday

:55:33. > :55:36.and came home for that. Then she went back, so we had not seen over

:55:37. > :55:43.five weeks. She was only back at Deepcut Barracks for ten days before

:55:44. > :55:51.she died. It was a very time before she died. Clearly something went on.

:55:52. > :55:58.Do you think Cheryl could have taken her own life? Yes, of course she

:55:59. > :56:01.could have. I am not disputing that. If the evidence can show me that she

:56:02. > :56:04.took her own life, then of course that is what she did. But there

:56:05. > :56:12.isn't any evidence. That is the point. The army were, in my opinion,

:56:13. > :56:17.very easily convinced it was a suicide and I don't know why. Much

:56:18. > :56:21.more to the point, the police were easily convinced it was a suicide

:56:22. > :56:26.and they didn't even investigate the death. In 2002, Surrey Police began

:56:27. > :56:31.an investigation and they found no evidence of a crime. What did you

:56:32. > :56:39.think of that investigation? I would say within a matter of months the

:56:40. > :56:42.investigation... It opened in July and certainly by September my wife

:56:43. > :56:45.and I had separately come to the opinion that they were just carrying

:56:46. > :56:49.out a cursory review of what they considered to be a suicide. It did

:56:50. > :56:55.not feel like an investigation to us, that is the shore. Coming in to

:56:56. > :56:59.the new inquest with more than 100 witnesses potentially, that is a lot

:57:00. > :57:08.of people coming forward. Yes, it is. My view on that is that in 95

:57:09. > :57:14.there were undoubtedly people afraid, kids, 16, 17, 18-year-olds.

:57:15. > :57:19.At that time, I absolutely believe them. I know there are allegations

:57:20. > :57:23.now, but too many of them have made it clear that they were too afraid

:57:24. > :57:31.to speak out. What you have got to remember is that in 2002, when the

:57:32. > :57:36.BBC got hold of the story, and there was talk of a public inquiry and so

:57:37. > :57:42.on, and Surrey Police began their investigation, I think what you had

:57:43. > :57:50.then was an emboldened view because they were 2425, a bit braver, they

:57:51. > :57:55.had left the forces, and they came. -- 24 or 25. Some of these kids are

:57:56. > :57:58.now 40 and there is hardly any fear at all. They are mature with

:57:59. > :58:02.children of their own and they realise how serious it was. I think

:58:03. > :58:06.there are lots of allegations out there that have got to be heard. The

:58:07. > :58:09.problem is there is no mechanism for them to be heard at the moment

:58:10. > :58:14.because clearly Surrey Police have ignored them. There has been an

:58:15. > :58:22.allegation that the night before she died Cheryl may have been raped.

:58:23. > :58:30.Yes. Or ordered by an officer to have sex with a private the night

:58:31. > :58:36.before she died. Yes. That is obviously very distressing. But it

:58:37. > :58:43.is an allegation. Over the years they have built up this mechanism.

:58:44. > :58:49.It is an allegation and you park it at one side of your head and we wait

:58:50. > :58:53.and see what happens. Every time we raised these allegations to the

:58:54. > :58:56.armed forces minister all those years ago, his response was always

:58:57. > :59:00.that they are only allegations and they have not been investigated and

:59:01. > :59:04.we don't know anything about them. In effect, that is where I am. They

:59:05. > :59:13.are allegations. There are lots of allegations but I think it is very

:59:14. > :59:18.important that we hear them, even just because of the volume of them.

:59:19. > :59:21.There are so many we cannot just dismiss them as fabricating stories,

:59:22. > :59:26.telling lies. There are too many allegations here. What we have also

:59:27. > :59:31.got to remember is that when Nicholas Blake conducted his review,

:59:32. > :59:36.the MoD was saying we will look at these. OK, if you have looked at

:59:37. > :59:39.them and investigated them, let us know what the results are there. How

:59:40. > :59:46.many have been investigated and how many people have been punished and

:59:47. > :59:50.gone to prison? I think it is quite wrong that the MoD can throw out

:59:51. > :59:57.these sound bites like zero tolerance and we have fixed it

:59:58. > :00:00.without having to justify it in any way and make themselves accountable.

:00:01. > :00:05.I don't know if they have fixed it because I don't know what it was

:00:06. > :00:10.they were trying to fix. If you haven't had an investigative process

:00:11. > :00:13.into those allegations collectively, if you haven't had the courage to

:00:14. > :00:19.analyse what went on there, how on earth do you know what you are

:00:20. > :00:24.trying to fix? It is just impossible to define. I haven't seen any

:00:25. > :00:29.evidence that that cultural issue, that cultural problem that was going

:00:30. > :00:33.on at Deepcut Barracks, that it has been addressed and the MoD continued

:00:34. > :00:38.to deny it and that makes it even more difficult. If they deny there

:00:39. > :00:42.was a cultural issues any questions almost beginning under false

:00:43. > :00:46.pretences. That is my point. I think that if indeed it turns out that

:00:47. > :00:53.Cheryl or any of the other three did take their own lives, and there was

:00:54. > :00:57.bullying going on and a bit of alcohol and a bit of a drugs

:00:58. > :01:01.culture, we cannot just let these things go past. We have to

:01:02. > :01:06.understand how that can was being run, what was going on, and what

:01:07. > :01:18.mindset that was creating in the 17 and 18-year-old kids who were

:01:19. > :01:23.clearly vulnerable. That sexual allegation is hard for a father to

:01:24. > :01:35.hear? It is, it is horrific. I would have always protected her, so it is

:01:36. > :01:38.very difficult. That is your worst nightmare, I think I should have

:01:39. > :01:47.been there and I could have sorted it. But what can you do? You just

:01:48. > :01:52.have to wait and see what happened. And the inquest will also hear about

:01:53. > :01:58.ballistic evidence? Yes. Which you and your lawyers were saying was not

:01:59. > :02:03.examined properly at the time. That is going to be very significant? I

:02:04. > :02:12.think it is very significant, and I think it is significant because it

:02:13. > :02:18.has not been done before, and I was told in 2002 in a letter from the

:02:19. > :02:21.MoD that there was no reason to take fingerprints off the weapon because

:02:22. > :02:28.it would have been pointless as it was a pool weapon. Surrey Police and

:02:29. > :02:33.many other experts have told me since that that was nonsense, so why

:02:34. > :02:39.would the MoD sending the letter? Who told them to send that letter to

:02:40. > :02:44.me? How can they send letters like that but I clearly incorrect, on

:02:45. > :02:47.true. It is just cruel. Do you think this is your best hope

:02:48. > :02:55.of finding out what happened? There is no doubt. I do think this can be

:02:56. > :02:59.resurrected again. I think that we will just see where this takes us,

:03:00. > :03:05.and that is why I am so pedantic about the process. I can't keep

:03:06. > :03:13.quiet about the 23,000 documents, we can't just let that slip I've. I

:03:14. > :03:16.think it is the last chance, and that is why I have said that on the

:03:17. > :03:21.appeals. If these people don't have the courage to step up and speak

:03:22. > :03:23.now, then I don't think they will have another chance. The father of

:03:24. > :03:28.drive it Cheryl James. "Our thoughts remain with the family

:03:29. > :03:33.and friends of Private Cheryl James. The inquest will now be a matter

:03:34. > :03:37.for the coroner, but we will of course continue to cooperate

:03:38. > :03:39.with and provide support Still to come before 11: Syria peace

:03:40. > :03:44.talks in Geneva are due to start again today after attempts

:03:45. > :03:46.failed last week. Two former International Development

:03:47. > :03:48.Secretaries have recently visited the region near the

:03:49. > :04:02.Syrian-Turkish border. He says that the communities are

:04:03. > :04:05.guilty of lack of action. We will be talking to him.

:04:06. > :04:07.Next, meet Steffan Zachiyah and Romario Wanliss,

:04:08. > :04:10.two transgender men who live in the UK but have just returned

:04:11. > :04:14.from Jamaica where they came out to their families

:04:15. > :04:15.for an extraordinary Radio 1 Newsbeat documentary.

:04:16. > :04:18.Jamaica is considered to be one of the most homophobic

:04:19. > :04:20.and transphobic countries in the world but despite the risks

:04:21. > :04:22.they both wanted to tell their family why they're

:04:23. > :04:25.in the process of transitioning from female to male.

:04:26. > :04:29.Here's the moment when Steffan met his eldest brother Gilla.

:04:30. > :04:34.Today, I'm going to be revealing my transition

:04:35. > :04:36.for the first time in two years, to my brother.

:04:37. > :04:44.I don't know what the outcome is going to be.

:04:45. > :04:48.I don't want to have any expectations.

:04:49. > :04:55.He is a brother from my father's side but he's been there a lot,

:04:56. > :05:00.when I was living in Jamaica, in 2001.

:05:01. > :05:26.The house I'm going to visit today, it's my parents' house.

:05:27. > :05:28.It's going to remind me of going to school, how I used

:05:29. > :05:31.to dress, over here it was so strict on how males looked

:05:32. > :05:40.We had to wear skirts, knee high, it was a depressing time but I hid

:05:41. > :05:47.it so much because I wanted to blend in.

:05:48. > :06:37.I'm thinking about it and I feel emotional already.

:06:38. > :06:40.The last time I came to Jamaica, I was dressed way more feminine,

:06:41. > :06:47.Even though I was more masculine in the UK,

:06:48. > :06:50.I had to kind of like add some touch of femininity,

:06:51. > :06:55.extensions in my hair, more of a tomboy look.

:06:56. > :06:59.I tried to do it to please everyone around me, especially my mum,

:07:00. > :07:08.But coming here now, who I am today, I feel free,

:07:09. > :07:46.I've changed my name, started medically transitioning.

:07:47. > :07:58.I don't know if you can see the physical changes?

:07:59. > :09:41.I'm now just living my life as myself.

:09:42. > :09:44.And you can watch the full Radio 1 Newsbeat documentary

:09:45. > :09:46.Transgender Back to Jamaica on the Radio 1 Channel

:09:47. > :10:02.We can speak to both Romario and Steffan now.

:10:03. > :10:09.Thank you both for coming in. You were upbeat there. Did you feel

:10:10. > :10:13.nervous? That was someone who had known you as a girl and had no idea

:10:14. > :10:21.until that moment that you are transitioning? I was very nervous,

:10:22. > :10:26.but the suspense of it just made me feel like I am living my life is

:10:27. > :10:30.mean out, what is the point of holding back? If it wasn't the BBC

:10:31. > :10:36.News beat, I would have to come out either way, so I thought, let's get

:10:37. > :10:41.straight to the point. This is me, face it, or never face it at all.

:10:42. > :10:45.Why was it important for you to go there and face it? Your mum is here,

:10:46. > :10:50.you have lived most of your life here, but obviously you do still

:10:51. > :10:56.have family in Jamaica. It was important to me because I feel like

:10:57. > :10:59.I need to affirm my identity, so I want people to be addressing me as

:11:00. > :11:04.the person who I am now rather than the person I was, so for me to go

:11:05. > :11:09.back there to my brother in Jamaica just meant to me that it was closure

:11:10. > :11:17.on Stefanie. Did you get that? He still was calling you she. It can't

:11:18. > :11:24.change overnight. People around me will be transitioning as well as

:11:25. > :11:28.myself. So I have room for that. I can allow them their transition as

:11:29. > :11:30.well as myself. He looked shocked when he first saw you, but then said

:11:31. > :11:35.very nicely, you when he first saw you, but then said

:11:36. > :11:41.as yourself. What was the reaction you had from others? Was everybody

:11:42. > :11:46.as understanding? My family, again, it wasn't shocking for them, some of

:11:47. > :11:52.them, because it was like a build-up anyway, but it was hard for some of

:11:53. > :12:00.them to accept, because it was again something out of the norm. It is not

:12:01. > :12:03.normal in their eyes, but now their minds are changing and they are

:12:04. > :12:08.beginning to come more accepting, and I am happy about that. Romario,

:12:09. > :12:14.you went back to Jamaica as well. Tell us what it was like for you. It

:12:15. > :12:19.was really nerve wracking. It was about a decade before hired actually

:12:20. > :12:22.went to Jamaica, and I was always scared because of my history with my

:12:23. > :12:30.father. Tell us more about your story. You said you were worried

:12:31. > :12:35.about going back because of your father. Tell us the history there. I

:12:36. > :12:40.was born in Jamaica, I grew up there, I came here because my mum

:12:41. > :12:45.asked me to come. By this time I was homeless, and my father and I had

:12:46. > :12:52.fell out. I thought it was due to my sexuality at the time, so he found

:12:53. > :12:56.out that I liked girls, and to me, it felt like emotional abuse,

:12:57. > :13:00.physical abuse, and I couldn't take it any more, so I left the family

:13:01. > :13:05.home, I left my sisters and brothers, I just turned my back on

:13:06. > :13:08.the life in Jamaica. When I came here, I realised I had the

:13:09. > :13:13.opportunity to transition, and that is when I started to medically

:13:14. > :13:16.transition. I was scared about judgment, so I was just really

:13:17. > :13:24.scared. It is the simplest way I could did. So what was it like to go

:13:25. > :13:30.back? It was up and down, because I had my best friend, so there was

:13:31. > :13:33.high moments like we were doing this together, and then low moments where

:13:34. > :13:37.we were about to do it and I didn't even know if my dad would show up.

:13:38. > :13:42.But it was really important for us to share that story. How was your

:13:43. > :13:49.dad? You have to watch the documentary to find out! Deveson

:13:50. > :13:55.clue. Did you get the sense that he knew you had transitioned? In my

:13:56. > :14:02.mind, as far as I know personally, yes. Before coming down, my sister

:14:03. > :14:06.had spoken to him and let him know I was coming and this is who I am now,

:14:07. > :14:12.so much am I believe it was the first time that he actually was

:14:13. > :14:16.like, this is a boy that is coming down, but I know this person to be a

:14:17. > :14:20.girl, I know this person to be my daughter, and I commend him to

:14:21. > :14:25.showing up, and he said that it was difficult for him to show up. My

:14:26. > :14:33.reaction was very surprisingly I was surprised by his reaction to me. And

:14:34. > :14:40.how do you feel now about it? I am happy I did it as I have a sense of

:14:41. > :14:42.closure on that side of my life. We are also pioneering because we are

:14:43. > :14:48.showing people that even though you come from this country, this country

:14:49. > :14:52.that might be deemed very homophobic, there is hope, you can

:14:53. > :15:04.go out there and still represent your culture and still be

:15:05. > :15:11.trans-all-day. -- you can still be trans or you can be gay. Romario and

:15:12. > :15:15.Steffan, thank you for talking to us. But documentary is available on

:15:16. > :15:20.the iPlayer, and to find out more about their story, you can watch the

:15:21. > :15:22.full News beat Kim entry on the radio one channel on the BBC

:15:23. > :15:27.iPlayer. Thank you for joining us today.

:15:28. > :15:32.Still to come before 11: UK scientists have been given

:15:33. > :15:46.the go-ahead to genetically modify We will bring you more of this

:15:47. > :15:49.breaking story. Driving 25,000 miles in two years to

:15:50. > :15:53.see their daughter. One father has to readily make a 300 mile journey

:15:54. > :15:55.to visit his daughter in a psychiatric unit because there are

:15:56. > :16:11.no beds closer to home. Now a summary of the main news this

:16:12. > :16:12.morning. We will bring you more on the breaking news we have just been

:16:13. > :16:14.talking about. UK scientists have been given

:16:15. > :16:25.the go-ahead to genetically modify Fergus Walsh is here to tell us

:16:26. > :16:29.more. What are they going to be able to do? This is a team at the crick

:16:30. > :16:36.institute and they are going to take donated embryos left over from IVF

:16:37. > :16:43.research which our one-day old, frozen, so not put to any other use,

:16:44. > :16:49.and they will use a new system of gene editing that enables them to

:16:50. > :16:55.take out, modify, one gene out of 30,000. I think the best way to

:16:56. > :17:00.describe this is that in every cell of our body we have this code of

:17:01. > :17:06.life, this Genoa, that we often talk about. Imagine it like a big set of

:17:07. > :17:11.encyclopaedias. What this gene editing system can do is take

:17:12. > :17:18.metaphorically one Encyclopaedia of the shelf, look up one page, and

:17:19. > :17:23.take out one word or edit it. It has only been discovered in the last few

:17:24. > :17:29.years, this system, and it is revolutionising medical research.

:17:30. > :17:34.What they are going to be able to do is look at all of the genes that are

:17:35. > :17:38.involved in the most early stages of human development and see what

:17:39. > :17:43.effect it has when they edit them. What is the potential here? This

:17:44. > :17:48.particular team is looking at why some women repeatedly miscarry. They

:17:49. > :17:53.will be looking at the early embryos when they are smaller than a speck

:17:54. > :17:59.of dust, maybe between 20 and 200 cells big. Of those cells, some of

:18:00. > :18:07.them go on to form the placenta and others the foetus. They are trying

:18:08. > :18:14.to understand which of the genes are crucial to the safe and proper

:18:15. > :18:18.development of a baby in the uterus. By doing this research, ultimately

:18:19. > :18:22.they hope it might lead to a better understanding of miscarriage and

:18:23. > :18:30.maybe better treatments and faster, more accurate IVF. Extraordinary

:18:31. > :18:38.what they could be doing. If the UK at the cutting edge of this? It

:18:39. > :18:42.certainly is. This regulator is the first in the world to approve this

:18:43. > :18:45.and many countries do not have regulators. Britain will be the

:18:46. > :18:52.second country after China to permit this. Last year a Chinese team said

:18:53. > :18:57.they had done this gene editing in embryos. In the United States, for a

:18:58. > :19:04.sample, federal funding is not permitted to allow this but private

:19:05. > :19:09.funding is. If we go back to Louise Brown in 1978, the UK has always

:19:10. > :19:15.been at the forefront of embryo and IVF and fertility research, and this

:19:16. > :19:20.is another example of that. Is there much controversy surrounding this

:19:21. > :19:25.and ethical issues? All the main medical research bodies support

:19:26. > :19:30.this. It will make some people instinctively queasy, the idea of

:19:31. > :19:34.editing the book of life. If that's embryo was ever to be implanted, and

:19:35. > :19:38.it won't be in these cases, then you could lead to the slippery slope of

:19:39. > :19:44.designer humans. Emphatically that is against the law. But knowing that

:19:45. > :19:48.something is possible might mean that in some other part of the world

:19:49. > :19:50.it could one day be done. It is something that we need to keep a

:19:51. > :19:56.close ethical eye on. Thank you. MPs investigating the charity,

:19:57. > :19:58.Kids Company, say an extraordinary catalogue of failures led

:19:59. > :20:00.to its collapse last year. Their report blames those

:20:01. > :20:02.running the charity, its trustees, auditors,

:20:03. > :20:03.regulators and ministers. Its former chief executive,

:20:04. > :20:05.Camila Batmanghelidjh, has called the document

:20:06. > :20:08.a product of bias and rumour. Earlier on this programme the chair

:20:09. > :20:11.of the group of MPs behind the report had this to say

:20:12. > :20:24.on Ms Batmanghelidjh. I think she had a fantastic

:20:25. > :20:29.commission, great vision, but you must have been very difficult to

:20:30. > :20:33.work with. If you are running a large charity, you have to have some

:20:34. > :20:37.discipline. You have to be able to work with others and accept the

:20:38. > :20:41.discipline of others. You have to accept you are not the big deal.

:20:42. > :20:44.David Cameron and European Council President Donald Tusk are set

:20:45. > :20:46.for a day of talks about renegotiating the UK's relationship

:20:47. > :20:49.with the EU today, which Mr Tusk has described as crucial.

:20:50. > :20:51.A meeting last night ended without a deal,

:20:52. > :20:54.though a Downing Street source said there had been a breakthrough

:20:55. > :20:58.on restricting benefits for EU migrants.

:20:59. > :21:00.The World Health Organisation will hold an emergency meeting

:21:01. > :21:03.today to decide if the outbreak of the Zika virus should be declared

:21:04. > :21:08.The mosquito-borne virus, which has been linked to thousands

:21:09. > :21:15.could affect up to 4 million people this year.

:21:16. > :21:18.Books of condolence will be opened for Sir Terry Wogan this morning

:21:19. > :21:23.He died after a short illness yesterday at the age of 77.

:21:24. > :21:27.The mayor said the books would allow people to pay tribute to a true son

:21:28. > :21:33.of Limerick and a broadcasting institution.

:21:34. > :21:41.We can now catch up with all the sport on transfer deadline day. It

:21:42. > :21:46.has been a frantic day. The transfer window closes tonight with an air

:21:47. > :21:50.leak spending set to break ?1 billion in a single season for the

:21:51. > :21:54.first time. The biggest signing could be Saido Berahino. Newcastle

:21:55. > :21:57.have bits ?21 million for him but West Brom are digging in their

:21:58. > :22:01.heels. He scored a couple of times at the weekend in the cup. Toss

:22:02. > :22:07.wanted him last summer and Stoke could also be after his signature.

:22:08. > :22:12.-- Tottenham wanted him. You can follow the drama as it unfolds

:22:13. > :22:16.across the BBC today. John Terry, the Chelsea captain, said he will

:22:17. > :22:18.leave the club at the end of this season because he has not been

:22:19. > :22:22.offered a new contract but the club say that could change and dialogue

:22:23. > :22:28.is open. John Terry has spent his entire career at Stamford Bridge and

:22:29. > :22:36.he will keep playing, he said, but not in England. Johanna Konta has

:22:37. > :22:40.broken into the top 30, following a fantastic run in the Australia Open,

:22:41. > :22:44.where she reached the semifinals before losing to the eventual

:22:45. > :22:51.champion Angelique Kerber. She has pulled out of the fed Cup team in

:22:52. > :22:55.Israel because of intestine issues. And Andy Murray is in the air on the

:22:56. > :22:58.way back home after losing in the final to Novak Djokovic. He has made

:22:59. > :23:04.the swift departure to be with his wife who is expecting her first

:23:05. > :23:09.child very soon. She just have to hang on a little bit longer. That is

:23:10. > :23:15.all the sport. We hope she can! Thank you.

:23:16. > :23:17.MPs will debate changes to women's pensions today,

:23:18. > :23:20.which could see up to half a million women retire on less

:23:21. > :23:23.Last week on the programme we heard from Wendy.

:23:24. > :23:26.She was only told two years ago that her retirement age

:23:27. > :23:30.She had been planning to retire next week on her 60th birthday.

:23:31. > :23:32.Now she says she'll have to work for six more years.

:23:33. > :23:45.In June 2013, a letter saying my state based on age is going up from

:23:46. > :23:50.65 to 66. -- state pension age. I did not know it was going up to 65

:23:51. > :23:54.let alone 66. I actually phoned the DWP up because I thought it was a

:23:55. > :23:59.mistake and then I found out that the state pension age had gone up in

:24:00. > :24:04.the pensions act in 1995 but I had not been told about that. This

:24:05. > :24:13.letter comes 18 years after that pensions act in 1995. It took them

:24:14. > :24:18.18 years to let me know about this. Starting work when I was 16, I was

:24:19. > :24:26.always told it would be 60. All my working life I believed it was 60. I

:24:27. > :24:31.was told it was put out on the radio and in the newspapers. I didn't hear

:24:32. > :24:36.about it on the radio and I certainly didn't see it in the

:24:37. > :24:41.newspapers. How am I supposed to think in 1995, oh, I must put the

:24:42. > :24:47.radio on because there might be a report about my retirement. You just

:24:48. > :24:52.don't think ahead like that. In 1995I was 39, working, travelling,

:24:53. > :24:57.doing things with the family, with friends, and I was not thinking

:24:58. > :25:00.about my retirement. I was devastated actually. I thought I

:25:01. > :25:04.could retire at 60 and I was going to do some travelling while I am

:25:05. > :25:09.still fit to go and enjoy life a bit. To find out I cannot retire at

:25:10. > :25:17.60 and have to wait another six years is an awful lot. Now I am

:25:18. > :25:24.Speaking on was Wendy. Speaking on

:25:25. > :25:26.Radio 4's Today programme, the Pensions Minister,

:25:27. > :25:28.Lady Altmann, says the changes will make the state

:25:29. > :25:33.However she's surprised that people are unaware of the changes.

:25:34. > :25:39.the idea that the state pension age which was changed in 1995 from 860

:25:40. > :25:45.is something people don't know about 20 years later in 2015 is really,

:25:46. > :25:52.really exercising to me. The women's state pension age has been rising

:25:53. > :25:56.for nearly six years. It is now 63. It has not been 60 for a long time.

:25:57. > :26:00.Social Care and Carers. Well,

:26:01. > :26:03.She feels this change was brought in too quickly with

:26:04. > :26:06.Conservative MP Craig Mackinlay sits on the House of Commons' Work

:26:07. > :26:12.it is something that needed to happen.

:26:13. > :26:19.thank you both for joining us. Do you agree with Baroness Altman went

:26:20. > :26:27.to says that the idea that people did not know is exercising her? The

:26:28. > :26:30.WASPI women have launched a fantastic campaign on this and I

:26:31. > :26:33.don't think any MP in a land has not heard about this campaign and they

:26:34. > :26:37.have probably had women in their surgeries about this discussing the

:26:38. > :26:41.problems they have had. The legislation started in 1995 and a

:26:42. > :26:48.lot of women are saying they did not receive a personalised letter until

:26:49. > :26:53.a few years ago. That is certainly possible. Before I was an MP, that

:26:54. > :26:58.knowledge was sort of out there that these changes were happening and 60

:26:59. > :27:02.was going to be changing to 65. It has obviously accelerated past that

:27:03. > :27:05.now. I have a feeling it was known about but if there is a lack of

:27:06. > :27:10.communication, I think the Government has learned something and

:27:11. > :27:11.must do better in the future. So what are you saying to women like

:27:12. > :27:28.Wendy who just did not know? In 1995 she was not looking out for

:27:29. > :27:31.something like that. She did not hear about it and got a big shock

:27:32. > :27:34.all those years later and now she has got to work longer than she

:27:35. > :27:36.expected. Are you just saying it is tough? No. The committee is looking

:27:37. > :27:39.at various options and suggestions to see if there is some kind of

:27:40. > :27:41.transitional arrangement that might be acceptable to DWP. Going back to

:27:42. > :27:45.first principles, we have got to accept that we are all living longer

:27:46. > :27:49.and that is something to celebrate. It is not uncommon when you read the

:27:50. > :27:55.local press that you see people in the obituary column living to their

:27:56. > :27:59.late 90s. The thought of 40 years of pensions is something that is just a

:28:00. > :28:04.different world. The reality was that when the pension age was 60,

:28:05. > :28:09.people did not have a huge life expectation and they were lucky to

:28:10. > :28:13.reach 80 and now living until 100 is not uncommon. In terms of equality

:28:14. > :28:19.it was right that we had a change to unequal age is between men and women

:28:20. > :28:22.and I don't think many people would object to that. But this transition

:28:23. > :28:27.from going to the old to the New will always be tough. I will listen

:28:28. > :28:31.hard and I have every sympathy. We have a woman who is younger than her

:28:32. > :28:35.husband, her husband has died and yet she will receive nothing until

:28:36. > :28:41.she is 66. There are tough cases on the edges but it is like anything.

:28:42. > :28:45.If you try and make changes, some people will be happy and something

:28:46. > :28:52.will pop up where you least expect it, like a balloon. What is your

:28:53. > :28:57.opinion on this? Craig Mackinlay has been pretty clear this was a long

:28:58. > :29:00.time coming. It was but few have heard from Wendy that she did not

:29:01. > :29:04.know about it and I have constituents in the same position. I

:29:05. > :29:09.want to take issue with what Craig were saying about life expectancy.

:29:10. > :29:13.The year these changes were brought in, life expectancy fell. Thanet is

:29:14. > :29:17.very different to Salford, where there is some of the worst life

:29:18. > :29:20.expectancy in the country. Some people in my constituency will only

:29:21. > :29:27.be drawing their pension for something like six years after 66

:29:28. > :29:31.and healthy life expectancy stops in the mid 50s. Are you saying the

:29:32. > :29:36.pension age should not have been changed at all? I am not saying that

:29:37. > :29:40.but we have to take account of the fact that not everybody is healthy

:29:41. > :29:46.and not everybody lives until they are 90. But how do you address that?

:29:47. > :29:53.We cannot have a pick and mix situation.

:29:54. > :30:00.A number of these women are suffering real hardship, maybe from

:30:01. > :30:05.health problems, may be they are carers, maybe they have been made

:30:06. > :30:07.redundant. There are no arrangements made at all despite the fact that

:30:08. > :30:13.Iain Duncan Smith promised there would need transitional

:30:14. > :30:17.arrangements. You did mention there may be various options you are

:30:18. > :30:21.looking at. One option that I personally have some favour with is

:30:22. > :30:28.perhaps having a lower amount early, so that overall, the cost of a

:30:29. > :30:34.lifetime of pension will be the same, but it would be discounted

:30:35. > :30:38.amount having earlier. The cost of completely reversing those 1995

:30:39. > :30:42.changes, which was the tail end of the Conservative Government back

:30:43. > :30:45.then, these changes went through the whole Labour government and were

:30:46. > :30:51.enhanced and improved upon, went through Parliament, everybody

:30:52. > :30:57.agreed, and the 2011 change, the one that is causing the most upset. What

:30:58. > :31:00.could be considered is a lower amount of longer, and that would

:31:01. > :31:11.mean that .Mac accurately is looking at what that might be. -- the

:31:12. > :31:15.Government actuaries. That would be a calculation that needed to be had.

:31:16. > :31:20.But I would have some sympathy with that, because it would be cost

:31:21. > :31:25.neutral and would get some women who are stuck between 60 and 66 some

:31:26. > :31:29.money now. It is good that people like Craig are not entirely

:31:30. > :31:33.supported what they Government has done and think there have to be

:31:34. > :31:36.differences made, but we have the lowest state pension payments almost

:31:37. > :31:43.in the world, only Mexico comes in lower than we do. And you are

:31:44. > :31:46.talking about an even lower amount. We need arrangements for people who

:31:47. > :31:50.can't work, who have been made redundant like Wendy in the film. We

:31:51. > :31:57.need arrangements for people who are carers. Why should all the weight of

:31:58. > :32:07.pension equalisation fall on this one decade of women?

:32:08. > :32:14.You have support payments for people. And you have sanctions, you

:32:15. > :32:18.sanction people and leave them with nothing to live on at 62 and 63.

:32:19. > :32:24.This is too harsh for this group of women. Your Government didn't think

:32:25. > :32:32.it through. Barbra, it was your Government as well that started

:32:33. > :32:37.this. In 2011, your government broke a pledge in your manifesto and

:32:38. > :32:41.speeded up these changes. It falls to hard on women, and you know that

:32:42. > :32:45.you need to think this through, do what Iain Duncan Smith promised and

:32:46. > :32:49.bring in transitional arrangements. I have just offered what I think

:32:50. > :32:52.would he a fairly fair arrangement, and in opposition, you're just

:32:53. > :32:57.saying it is all wrong and it should be ripped up. We are just about out

:32:58. > :32:59.of time, but you have said you have put forward that idea. Have you any

:33:00. > :33:05.reason to suspect that the Department for Work and Pensions

:33:06. > :33:08.would supported? The select committee comes up with lots of

:33:09. > :33:11.ideas, and they are well thought through after receiving lots of

:33:12. > :33:17.evidence, and I think that one has some links to it. We should be

:33:18. > :33:20.reported in the next few days, and DWP will look at that and see what

:33:21. > :33:27.they think. Thank you both very much. Let us

:33:28. > :33:29.know what you think, and a Department for Work and Pensions

:33:30. > :33:34.spokesperson has told us that the decision to equalise the state

:33:35. > :33:38.pension for men and women dates back to 1995 and corrects a long-standing

:33:39. > :33:41.inequality was the usual the state pension remains affordable for

:33:42. > :33:45.future generations. Women retiring today can still expect to receive

:33:46. > :33:50.the state pension of 26 years on average, 26 years longer than men.

:33:51. > :33:54.Still to come: A former international development minister

:33:55. > :33:57.who has just returned from Syrian refugees visiting tiles as the

:33:58. > :34:00.international community is guilty of a grotesque lack of action and

:34:01. > :34:03.effectiveness in Syria. We will be talking to him.

:34:04. > :34:05.A family who have driven over 25,000 miles in two years

:34:06. > :34:07.to visit their teenage daughter in a psychiatric unit

:34:08. > :34:10.say it's a national disgrace she couldn't get a bed

:34:11. > :34:20.18-year-old Chloe Hodge has severe anxiety and PTSD.

:34:21. > :34:23.A shortage of beds near her home in Cornwall means she's spent two

:34:24. > :34:25.years in a mental health unit 300 miles away.

:34:26. > :34:28.Last year the Government admitted mental health services for children

:34:29. > :34:31.and young people in England were in need of a complete

:34:32. > :34:34.overhaul and promised to prioritise improved care as close

:34:35. > :34:35.to home as possible for children

:34:36. > :34:40.Chloe Hodge's father says keeping her so far

:34:41. > :34:42.away from her family is a breach

:34:43. > :34:56.Thank you very much for joining us. Tell us why she is so far away? Tell

:34:57. > :35:04.us more about the history of the treatment she has had. The problems

:35:05. > :35:12.happened with Chloe when she hit puberty. Then we discovered that

:35:13. > :35:15.there is no out of hours, out of office care for young people with

:35:16. > :35:23.mental health issues in Cornwall at all. In fact, one night she actually

:35:24. > :35:28.spent in the kitchen of the police station, because the police took her

:35:29. > :35:31.away, the hospital wouldn't accept her, so she spent the night wrapped

:35:32. > :35:39.in a blanket in the kitchen at the local police station, and then the

:35:40. > :35:44.episodes increased and she was taken away to Somerset, put in a

:35:45. > :35:53.residential placement which didn't have any mental health speciality,

:35:54. > :35:58.and she was moved on then to Stevenage, which also didn't have

:35:59. > :36:06.any mental health support in-house. She stopped taking her medication,

:36:07. > :36:12.made herself really ill, and she was moved to Colchester, which is 350

:36:13. > :36:19.miles away from us, and after a period, she was then moved to Kent

:36:20. > :36:30.house. So now at the age of 18 she is in Wales? She is in Wales. What

:36:31. > :36:41.happened,... What has the impact been on her and your family of her

:36:42. > :36:46.being so far away? It has been ongoing. The problems are that she

:36:47. > :36:50.is a youngster, she is poorly, and we have just not been able to

:36:51. > :36:59.support her. She has got no chance of home leave. She has been cut off

:37:00. > :37:04.from her family and her friends. And that has been ongoing. Now we have

:37:05. > :37:11.this other problem where we have this arbitrary decision that when

:37:12. > :37:13.she hits 18 she is just moved on. The people at Kent house did a good

:37:14. > :37:23.job, they were finally getting somewhere with her thanks to the

:37:24. > :37:30.hard work, but she just had to move, so she was shunted off to Wales.

:37:31. > :37:37.There was no choice, no plan B. Every time she moves, there is only

:37:38. > :37:43.one option. So now she is in Pontypridd, which is closer, but it

:37:44. > :37:50.is still a good 200 miles. It is about three and a half hours from

:37:51. > :37:53.us. What would you say to the people making decisions about where

:37:54. > :38:00.resources are? What would you like to be done, what message would you

:38:01. > :38:05.like people to hear? It is not just our family. There are 20 others in

:38:06. > :38:13.Cornwall facing the exact same situation. There is a charitable

:38:14. > :38:19.trust called the Invicta is trust, and they drew up plans to build a

:38:20. > :38:24.unit in Cornwall. Those plans were ready about three years ago, they

:38:25. > :38:32.had Landsdowne naked by Cornwall College, they went out to tender --

:38:33. > :38:35.they had land donated by Cornwall College, it went out to tender, and

:38:36. > :38:45.the so-called care commissioners have suddenly said there isn't a

:38:46. > :38:49.need. Obviously there is a need, so basically, it is probably too late

:38:50. > :38:55.for our daughter, but at any one time, there are 20 families in

:38:56. > :39:02.Cornwall that would really benefit to have this unit built. Paul Hodge,

:39:03. > :39:07.thank you for joining us and talking to us about your situation and your

:39:08. > :39:10.daughter Chloe. We asked Cornwall partnership NHS Foundation Trust

:39:11. > :39:15.with a response, but they were unable to supply us with one. NHS

:39:16. > :39:18.England has issued a statement saying, we appreciate the strain

:39:19. > :39:23.families can phrase when loved ones are far from home. While basement

:39:24. > :39:26.are ideally close by, the specific needs and condition of each

:39:27. > :39:27.individual can sometimes only be catered for at units that are

:39:28. > :39:32.further away. The international community

:39:33. > :39:42.is guilty of a grotesque lack Wightman about is the verdict of the

:39:43. > :39:45.former international development minister Andrew Mitchell who has

:39:46. > :39:51.just returned from visiting refugees on the Turkish Syrian border. He was

:39:52. > :39:52.joined by Labour MP Clare Short, also a former international

:39:53. > :40:00.development minister. I think the Turks have been

:40:01. > :40:08.fantastically generous, they have 2.2 million refugees from Syria

:40:09. > :40:12.here, of which 350,000 are in camps, with everything provided. The rest

:40:13. > :40:17.are out in the community thanks to the generosity of local people. This

:40:18. > :40:23.is a quality of camp that has cost them all together something like $8

:40:24. > :40:27.billion since the crisis started. And they are not getting the

:40:28. > :40:30.recognition. They are providing the bulk of support Syrian refugees, it

:40:31. > :40:33.has cost them a lot of money, and they can't go on doing this unless

:40:34. > :40:39.they get support from the international community. And the EU

:40:40. > :40:44.has promised, but it isn't being delivered. They have done remarkably

:40:45. > :40:47.well in dealing with the crisis. The Syrians would like to stay near

:40:48. > :40:51.Syria, because they would like to go home as soon as possible, but they

:40:52. > :40:56.have to be provided for or they will wander across the world try to find

:40:57. > :40:59.somewhere where they can be safe. And it will be the people who have

:41:00. > :41:03.something to contribute when the awful fighting is over who will be

:41:04. > :41:09.gone. Because they can afford to move. Yes, and that is what the

:41:10. > :41:12.world has got to address at this pledging conference next week, so

:41:13. > :41:18.that the money goes to where it is really needed to ensure that Syria

:41:19. > :41:22.can rebuild and has the resources to do so once it is over. Turkey gets

:41:23. > :41:28.proper support from the enormous contribution. Yes.

:41:29. > :41:37.Andrew Mitchell is here with me now. We saw you there in conversation

:41:38. > :41:41.with Clare Short. This is in part a political, you are both talking

:41:42. > :41:46.there about the importance of focusing resources in the region. If

:41:47. > :41:48.and until the issues of Syria are resolved, these people are living in

:41:49. > :41:52.limbo top whatever resources they are given to help them get through

:41:53. > :41:56.life on a daily basis in refugee camps. It is worse than that,

:41:57. > :41:59.because of course they are not getting the food that they require.

:42:00. > :42:05.The world food programme is running at half the amount of food they need

:42:06. > :42:09.to deliver to the refugees, and that money needs now to be provided by

:42:10. > :42:13.the international community to the world food gram. One of the points

:42:14. > :42:17.that Claire was making, and although we are very different political

:42:18. > :42:21.bedfellows, we agree entirely on this, is that most of the Syrians we

:42:22. > :42:25.match do not want to come to Europe. They want to stay in the region

:42:26. > :42:30.until the fighting is over, and of course, if they stay, some of them

:42:31. > :42:33.in camps, many more of them living in the local community, we must

:42:34. > :42:36.ensure that the children go to school so that there isn't a whole

:42:37. > :42:43.generation that are radicalised by this experience, and also that there

:42:44. > :42:45.is enterprise and livelihoods and training adjacent to the camps where

:42:46. > :42:51.they live so that when the fighting is over they are in a good position

:42:52. > :42:54.to go back and rebuilt Syria. What about giving them a chance of a

:42:55. > :42:58.better life in the meantime? Some of those you are meeting have been

:42:59. > :43:02.there for four years. There has been criticism of UK policy in not taking

:43:03. > :43:07.in more refugees, whether it is from the region from Europe, and just

:43:08. > :43:12.today, a letter signed by a large number of top economist and former

:43:13. > :43:14.Government, UN and World Bank officials has criticised the

:43:15. > :43:19.response here. One of the signatories said it is a travesty to

:43:20. > :43:22.suggest the breast in Britain can do in the midst of the worst refugee

:43:23. > :43:27.crisis since the Second World War is to take in 4000 refugees annually

:43:28. > :43:32.over five years. Do you think the UK should take in more? I think that is

:43:33. > :43:35.an unwise and ill thought through intervention. Britain has done more

:43:36. > :43:39.for the refugees than the entire European Union added together. We

:43:40. > :43:43.have spent over ?1 billion helping refugees. At the conference

:43:44. > :43:47.co-hosted by Kuwait and Norway this week, what they had to do is to get

:43:48. > :43:51.other countries to pull their weight, to step up, and make sure

:43:52. > :43:55.that people living in dreadful circumstances get the money from the

:43:56. > :44:00.international community. Thank you very much. Thank you Fiona company

:44:01. > :44:02.today, I will see you tomorrow. Goodbye.