11/02/2016

:00:00. > :00:08.Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:09. > :00:14.Junior Doctors in England face having new working contracts forced

:00:15. > :00:16.upon them after they reject the Government's 'take it

:00:17. > :00:27.Plus, the most senior police officer in this country says police should

:00:28. > :00:30.change their approach to allegations of rape and sexual abuse and not

:00:31. > :00:39.automatically believe the complainant.

:00:40. > :00:46.There is a grave danger at the moment with the advice around that

:00:47. > :00:49.perhaps there is a tendency to think that we always believe the

:00:50. > :00:50.complainant. That's not good for any officer.

:00:51. > :00:54.We'll get reaction from rape campaigners.

:00:55. > :00:57.Also on the programme, parents whose children have cancer

:00:58. > :01:00.tell us about the devastating impact a delay in diagnosis can have.

:01:01. > :01:07.You lose not just a part of you and them, but their future as well. It's

:01:08. > :01:11.the life that they haven't had. You know, the chances in life that they

:01:12. > :01:16.haven't had. They maybe didn't have the chance to go to school, to have

:01:17. > :01:21.a boyfriend, girlfriend, to get married, to do anything in life.

:01:22. > :01:31.over their controverisal ?130 million tax deal.

:01:32. > :01:41.Hello, welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC

:01:42. > :01:48.Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:01:49. > :01:51.and developing stories and as always we really want to hear from you...do

:01:52. > :02:00.get in touch in the usual ways; texts will be charged

:02:01. > :02:06.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:02:07. > :02:08.you are via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:02:09. > :02:11.When it comes to claims of sexual abuse and rape,

:02:12. > :02:14.should the alleged victim always be believed when they make

:02:15. > :02:16.their initial complaint to their police?

:02:17. > :02:18.After historical sex abuse cases like Jimmy Savile and more recent

:02:19. > :02:21.cases of child sexual grooming where the treatment of victims

:02:22. > :02:23.was widely criticised, the criminal justice system had

:02:24. > :02:31.In 2014 a report for Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary said:

:02:32. > :02:34."The presumption that a victim should always be believed

:02:35. > :02:38.In other words, believing alleged victims should be the norm.

:02:39. > :02:41.Now though Britain's top police officer, the head

:02:42. > :02:44.of the Metropolitan police, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is saying

:02:45. > :02:47.detectives investigating sex crimes should not believe

:02:48. > :02:52.After announcing a review of such cases, he says officers should

:02:53. > :02:58.investigate allegations with an open mind.

:02:59. > :03:04.I think we have really got hung up on this word of belief. It's

:03:05. > :03:09.confused officers. My point would be, we have to be empathetic, we

:03:10. > :03:13.want people to believe we are going to listen to them. We have to be

:03:14. > :03:17.open minded, then we have to listen to what they say, what the suspect

:03:18. > :03:21.tells us. There is a grave Daning we are the advice around that perhaps

:03:22. > :03:25.there is a tendency to think we'll always believe any complaint made

:03:26. > :03:26.and that's not wise for any good investigator.

:03:27. > :03:28.Also, calling for anonymity of public figures accused of sex

:03:29. > :03:31.crimes unless and until they are charged.

:03:32. > :03:34.Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is under increasing criticism over the way

:03:35. > :03:36.he and his force have handled historical sex abuse cases,

:03:37. > :03:40.particularly those of Lord Bramall, the former head of the army

:03:41. > :03:43.and a widely respected war hero, and Lord Brittan, a former Home

:03:44. > :03:51.92-year-old Lord Bramall found out last month he wouldn't face any

:03:52. > :03:54.charges; he says it took detectives ten months before they spoke

:03:55. > :03:57.to witnesses who cast doubt on the allegations.

:03:58. > :03:59.Lord Brittan was being investigated over a rape allegation

:04:00. > :04:02.from the 1960s, died last year without being told the case

:04:03. > :04:08.Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is facing mounting pressure to apologise

:04:09. > :04:12.to Lord Bramall and the Lord Brittan's widow over

:04:13. > :04:14.the way his force handled her husband's case.

:04:15. > :04:17.There are also questions over whether his contract with the Met

:04:18. > :04:20.which is up in September this year should be extended.

:04:21. > :04:26.He told us last year he wanted it to be.

:04:27. > :04:31.Whatever he meant to suggest, the way it's being report suicide that

:04:32. > :04:36.police officers should take a degree of scepticism about what it is that

:04:37. > :04:42.complainants say to them which some might say is an unfortunate message

:04:43. > :04:45.to those who believe they have been victims of serious sexual offences

:04:46. > :04:49.who may be put off reporting as a result of this. Whether he intended

:04:50. > :04:52.that or not. I have to say, I'm slightly baffled by his response

:04:53. > :04:56.because, in a way, what police officers believe or don't believe is

:04:57. > :05:00.completely irrelevant. They are not therapists, judges and juries, they

:05:01. > :05:05.are not expected to be, they are investigators. When we did the CPS

:05:06. > :05:08.report into the failures to prosecute Jimmy Savile back in 2013,

:05:09. > :05:13.the conclusion that I reached in relation to that was that what had

:05:14. > :05:16.gone wrong was that the investigations of serious sexual

:05:17. > :05:21.offences were applying a different standard for sexual offences than

:05:22. > :05:39.those that would apply to other offences. I can give you an analogy.

:05:40. > :05:44.I would not expect the police to get on with things. If I walked into my

:05:45. > :05:48.local police station and said I was burglared 30 years ago, before they

:05:49. > :05:51.went around arresting people, I would expect them to check whether I

:05:52. > :05:56.was living in that house 30 years ago and the point about this is

:05:57. > :06:04.that, although we have an enormous amount of respect for the retired

:06:05. > :06:09.High Court judge. The judge who Sir Bernard is putting in charge of

:06:10. > :06:13.reviewing in particular Operation Midland, an historical sexual case

:06:14. > :06:19.involving establishment figures from decades ago? Quite so. For which Sir

:06:20. > :06:23.Bernard and the force have been roundly criticised? We are in danger

:06:24. > :06:27.of getting into a situation where we are going to have inquiries into

:06:28. > :06:33.inquiries, there are lots running already. How should society approach

:06:34. > :06:35.allegations of serious sexual offences, particularly when it's

:06:36. > :06:39.said they took place a long time ago. We are trying to achieve a

:06:40. > :06:45.balance of fairness, fairness to the complainants because we'd not want

:06:46. > :06:48.to put them off. If people have been Tim Timms of crimes, it should be

:06:49. > :06:51.investigated, also fair tonnes the accused because if they are never

:06:52. > :06:57.going to a court, how can it be right that their reputations and

:06:58. > :07:02.names are put all over the press. And, although, it may be that Sir

:07:03. > :07:05.Richard's inquiry takes evidence and maybe very thorough and rigorous,

:07:06. > :07:09.there are, it seems to me, some practical steps that the police can

:07:10. > :07:14.take that would seek to achieve that balance. The first one is, in these

:07:15. > :07:19.very old allegations, they should make the arrest or the interview or

:07:20. > :07:23.the search of the suspect's home pretty much the last thing they do,

:07:24. > :07:27.rather than the first thing they do. What are they expecting to achieve

:07:28. > :07:30.by interviewing somebody about an allegation about something that

:07:31. > :07:35.happened 30 years ago? Whether that person is guilty or whether they are

:07:36. > :07:40.innocent, all they can say is "I didn't do it. " That doesn't move

:07:41. > :07:45.the investigation forward enough. 20 officers turning up at Lord

:07:46. > :07:49.Bramall's house to investigate it, what did they think they were going

:07:50. > :07:51.to find after 30 years? If they started the other end and

:07:52. > :07:55.investigated the allegation before they got to dealing with the suspect

:07:56. > :07:58.then that might have led them to a different conclusion at an earlier

:07:59. > :08:06.stage that some say might have been fair tore the suspect. But it might

:08:07. > :08:10.not. Yes. Given that these are sensitive cases, as a general rule,

:08:11. > :08:16.you can always depart from it, but as a general rule, it may be that is

:08:17. > :08:19.the fairer way of going about it. Was Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe right? We

:08:20. > :08:24.asked him to come on the programme and he declined, so we are going off

:08:25. > :08:28.his article. In the first instance and he's quoting from a report in

:08:29. > :08:34.2014, in the first instance, is officers should proceed on the basis

:08:35. > :08:37.that the allegation is truthful. I agree and would add that a good

:08:38. > :08:41.investigator would test the accuracy of the allegations and the evidence

:08:42. > :08:45.with an open mind, supporting the complainant through the process.

:08:46. > :08:49.This is a more neutral way to begin than saying we should believe

:08:50. > :08:53.victims and better describes our impartial mindset. On a cold

:08:54. > :08:58.objective reading, that would seem to be perfectly sensible. And it

:08:59. > :09:01.doesn't seem to need saying, it's extraordinary that they ever took a

:09:02. > :09:05.different view. You may be right there and people may agree with you,

:09:06. > :09:09.but the message that might get reported to alleged victims is, we

:09:10. > :09:13.are going to be a bit more sceptical of you in the future. And you are

:09:14. > :09:17.going to have to demonstrate to us that this did happen to you, which

:09:18. > :09:22.is impossible in many cases. One of the reasons that there is a concern

:09:23. > :09:25.about, not putting too high a threshold for sexual offences, is

:09:26. > :09:29.that by the very nature of these things, they tend to happen in

:09:30. > :09:34.private between two people without any witnesses there. They very

:09:35. > :09:37.rarely result in any scientific or medical evidence, so it's going to

:09:38. > :09:40.be one person's word against another's. If you say, we are never

:09:41. > :09:44.going to prosecute in that situation, there are going to be an

:09:45. > :09:49.awful lot of serious offences that go unpunished and that cannot be

:09:50. > :09:53.right. And it can only proceed to charge if they think there's a

:09:54. > :09:58.realistic prospect of conviction? Yes, meaning it's more on an

:09:59. > :10:04.objective evaluation of the evidence it's more likely than not that a

:10:05. > :10:08.jury will convict. Yes. Your point that you made about suspects is also

:10:09. > :10:11.raised by Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe in his article. He's saying, I think

:10:12. > :10:15.for the first time, I believe the time is right for suspects facing

:10:16. > :10:19.allegations of sexual offences to be offered anonymity prior to any

:10:20. > :10:24.charge. I'm not clear whether he's just talking about famous people or

:10:25. > :10:28.all suspects when it comes to sexual offences. You think that's right? I

:10:29. > :10:34.think it's right. Just for public figures or for everybody? For

:10:35. > :10:37.everybody. Even if you are not a well-known person, if you are known

:10:38. > :10:42.in your local community, it can be damaging for you. How do you assess

:10:43. > :10:47.who is a public figure and who isn't. When names are released to

:10:48. > :10:51.the media, that's led to other alleged victims coming forward and

:10:52. > :10:58.cases being taken to Saux Cescful conviction? In some cases and it's a

:10:59. > :11:03.very important point -- taken to a successful conviction. The point

:11:04. > :11:06.about charge is, at that stage, the lawyer has assessed the evidence and

:11:07. > :11:11.said there is sufficient evidence for the case to proceed. That seems

:11:12. > :11:16.to be a reasonable point at which the names can be released. Trying to

:11:17. > :11:19.hold this balance, but there shouldth should always be an

:11:20. > :11:22.exception pre-charge for the police to apply, for example, to a judge to

:11:23. > :11:27.say krks we actually have permission to release the name because we are

:11:28. > :11:30.able to demonstrate that there is a reasonable prospect that, if the

:11:31. > :11:36.name is out in the public domain, that will assist the investigation.

:11:37. > :11:40.What about the media applying to have the name released because they

:11:41. > :11:43.may have been contacted by alleged victims? This is something about

:11:44. > :11:47.which the Government has to legislate. It seems extraordinary

:11:48. > :11:52.that they haven't done so already because, broadly speaking, this very

:11:53. > :11:56.modest proposal has broad support from all sides. I say modest but

:11:57. > :12:00.constitutionally, it's quite important because it's a departure

:12:01. > :12:04.from the normal rule of, if you like, open justice. But it is a

:12:05. > :12:11.matter for the Government because I it needs to be properly debate.

:12:12. > :12:15.Debated. Also Sir Bernard Cannes enforce that across the country.

:12:16. > :12:20.There are 43 police forces, he is only in charge of the Metropolitan

:12:21. > :12:24.Police force. If another police force takes a different view, he

:12:25. > :12:35.can't make it happen, although he is influential.

:12:36. > :12:41.We'll bring you more reaction to what Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has been

:12:42. > :12:45.suggesting. Now some breaking news. Norman Smith is at Westminster. It's

:12:46. > :12:49.to do with the junior doctor's strike and a potential imposition of

:12:50. > :12:54.the contracts from Jeremy Hunt, England's Health Secretary? Yes.

:12:55. > :12:59.Here is the letter sent by Mr Hunt's chief negotiator, Sir David Dalton,

:13:00. > :13:05.to Mr Hunt this morning, saying time to impose the contract, no deal is

:13:06. > :13:06.possible. In other words, end of negotiations, the Government should

:13:07. > :13:13.impose the contract. Now, in the negotiations, the Government should

:13:14. > :13:19.letter, Sir David said he warned the BMA yesterday that if they did not

:13:20. > :13:25.accept the offer by 3pm, he'd assume there was no point in negotiating.

:13:26. > :13:29.He says "everyone's first preference has always been for a negotiated

:13:30. > :13:34.outcome. Unfortunately, this no longer seems possible. On this

:13:35. > :13:38.basis, I therefore advise the Government to do whatever it deems

:13:39. > :13:44.necessary to end uncertainty for the service and to make sure that new

:13:45. > :13:47.contract is in place. " In other words, forget about negotiations,

:13:48. > :13:51.there isn't going to be a deal, you need to impose the contract. Now,

:13:52. > :13:59.the critical question from that is, what on earth do the doctors do now?

:14:00. > :14:02.Do the BMA pack up their bags, two home and accept it's game over, or

:14:03. > :14:06.do they seek to carry on with industrial action and seek to

:14:07. > :14:12.escalate it? Remember, they did have this option of having an all-out

:14:13. > :14:18.strike, on pulling the plug on emergency cover too. They were

:14:19. > :14:21.planning action where which would be no junior doctors at work. Will they

:14:22. > :14:25.return to that given the fact Jeremy Hunt has decided to call their bluff

:14:26. > :14:30.and say forget it, I'm going to impose the deal. Do you know what

:14:31. > :14:37.was in the final offer? Well, I know what was the breaking point and the

:14:38. > :14:41.breaking point was Saturdays. They must be treated as a normal working

:14:42. > :14:46.day because Mr Hunt says that is part of making the NHS a seven-day a

:14:47. > :14:52.week Health Service. He does not want Saturdays to be a special day

:14:53. > :14:56.when junior doctors get paid more. The junior doctors are adamant that

:14:57. > :15:01.Saturday is not part of the normal working week and it was a sort of

:15:02. > :15:04.issue of principle for both sides. Mr Hunt was not prepared to back

:15:05. > :15:09.down, the doctors were not prepared to back down, and on that basis, I

:15:10. > :15:14.think Mr Hunt's decided OK, let's just see what happens if I impose

:15:15. > :15:17.it. I mentioned the reaction of the doctors, the other critical factor

:15:18. > :15:23.is the reaction of the public and, when you look at the opinion polls,

:15:24. > :15:27.so far, they have been overwhelmingly supportive of the

:15:28. > :15:32.doctors, something like two thirds support the doctors' action. I know

:15:33. > :15:36.talking to ministers, they think beneath the figures, actually, the

:15:37. > :15:39.support for the doctors is much less solid because many, many people

:15:40. > :15:43.actually rather like the idea of moving to a seven-day NHS so I think

:15:44. > :15:44.the view in Government is it's not game over when it comes to public

:15:45. > :15:55.opinion. I know you will be back with us if

:15:56. > :16:03.there is any more development. We will bring the any reaction from

:16:04. > :16:07.doctors and the BMA. If you have any appeal on what is happening in the

:16:08. > :16:11.NHS and the fact that we are being told, from Norman, that, having had

:16:12. > :16:15.the final offer rejected, this contract will now be imposed on

:16:16. > :16:19.junior doctors, let us know what you think, get in touch in the usual

:16:20. > :16:22.ways. The public's reaction is crucial, let's hear what you think

:16:23. > :16:25.about the fact that these contracts will be imposed.

:16:26. > :16:33.Let's go back to our conversation about how the police deal with

:16:34. > :16:35.allegations of rape and sexual assault. The boss of the Met today

:16:36. > :16:37.suggesting that the police should change their approach to

:16:38. > :16:40.complainants and not automatically believe them when they make their

:16:41. > :16:45.initial complaint. Comments from you, Matt on Facebook says, the

:16:46. > :16:50.police have a duty to believe anyone who alleges a crime has happened to

:16:51. > :16:52.them. Then they can do their job and investigate to see if those

:16:53. > :16:57.allegations stand up. Mark on Facebook says, no, police

:16:58. > :17:02.should be objective and professional. Some allegations will

:17:03. > :17:05.be true, some false. Andrea on Facebook, the police

:17:06. > :17:07.should treat any complainant with sympathy butchered neither believe

:17:08. > :17:13.nor disbelieve what they are told. They should follow the evidence it

:17:14. > :17:14.is evidence that forms the basis of court proceedings, not police

:17:15. > :17:19.belief. Another on Facebook, it is

:17:20. > :17:22.ridiculous they should believe the accuser or the accused, the evidence

:17:23. > :17:25.is the only thing they should follow.

:17:26. > :17:28.A tweet, the police should work in a professional, timely and unbiased

:17:29. > :17:33.manner. Lisa Long stuff is from the charity

:17:34. > :17:38.Women Against Rape. How do you react to what Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has

:17:39. > :17:40.suggested? Those comments are well-informed and I think Alison

:17:41. > :17:44.Levitt, who spoke earlier, had a good point when she said that if you

:17:45. > :17:50.reported a burglary you would not expect to be to be a liar. I think

:17:51. > :17:55.women and children reporting rape have to assume, in order to come

:17:56. > :17:59.forward, that they will be taken seriously and that their crime is

:18:00. > :18:04.going to be investigated impartially, to see if there is

:18:05. > :18:09.enough evidence to take it to court. That is what Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe

:18:10. > :18:11.is saying, it will be taken seriously, and investigated

:18:12. > :18:16.impartially. He is suggesting they will not all unconditionally be

:18:17. > :18:19.believed, which you could argue the pendulum has swung towards that in

:18:20. > :18:23.recent years after the saddle failures. I don't think the pendulum

:18:24. > :18:27.has swung towards that, I think there is an outcry from the

:18:28. > :18:33.establishment who have not screamed about what happened since Savile,

:18:34. > :18:36.they have now screamed because some of their people have been

:18:37. > :18:40.investigated, like the rest of the population. It is unpleasant to be

:18:41. > :18:44.accused of a crime but you have not heard them shout when 20 officers

:18:45. > :18:47.have dawn raided other people's houses, only when it is high in the

:18:48. > :18:51.establishment. What your viewers don't know if there have been a

:18:52. > :18:56.number of important convictions over the last few years, but the media

:18:57. > :19:01.has only focused on celebrities. But actually there have been heads of

:19:02. > :19:06.children's homes, parents of children, people in care homes who

:19:07. > :19:11.have been convicted of very serious serial rape and sexual assault of

:19:12. > :19:14.young children, and there are now a number of campaigns across the

:19:15. > :19:17.country of survivors who have got together, coming to groups like

:19:18. > :19:24.ours, campaigning for justice, and I think it is time that the pendulum

:19:25. > :19:29.swinging argument was put to bed. Do you think what he is saying today

:19:30. > :19:33.will deter some alleged victims from coming forward? It certainly will

:19:34. > :19:37.have deterred already some victims from coming forward, some people who

:19:38. > :19:40.have not yet come forward who are in touch with us, and there are many

:19:41. > :19:45.more people who have yet to be reported to need to face justice.

:19:46. > :19:48.The NSPCC have released this statement in reaction to what Sir

:19:49. > :19:51.Bernard Hogan-Howe has said: We are deeply disturbed that the proposed

:19:52. > :19:54.change of police approach to sexual abuse victims could be a serious

:19:55. > :20:07.part of them coming forward at a time and

:20:08. > :20:10.people have found the confidence and courage to report these crimes.

:20:11. > :20:12.It would be a tragedy to bring this progress to a juddering cold. You

:20:13. > :20:17.clearly agree with that. Can I ask about his other proposal, I'm not

:20:18. > :20:22.sure whether he means all people with these allegations against them

:20:23. > :20:26.or just high profile ones, but that they should all have anonymity until

:20:27. > :20:32.they are charged? We should see this in the context of war crimes, either

:20:33. > :20:36.all people accused of crimes should be given anonymity until charged, or

:20:37. > :20:39.none of them. There is no reason to make rape a special case because the

:20:40. > :20:50.only thing that implies is that a lot of these women are lying. Why

:20:51. > :20:54.doesn't that apply in other crimes? Thank you very much, Lisa Long stuff

:20:55. > :20:58.from that crow too. Your views welcome, as always.

:20:59. > :21:00.Thanks for joining us today, still to come:

:21:01. > :21:03.We speak to a leading children's charity that says nearly half

:21:04. > :21:05.of parents of kids diagnosed with cancer felt their concerns

:21:06. > :21:07.about their child's health were ignored.

:21:08. > :21:15.Junior doctors across England return to work after a 24-hour walkout,

:21:16. > :21:18.but reject what's been described as a "final offer"

:21:19. > :21:20.from the Government on weekend working.

:21:21. > :21:22.It's expected that ministers will announce they'll impose

:21:23. > :21:28.a new contract on the junior doctors.

:21:29. > :21:32.We are expecting a statement from England's Health Secretary Jeremy

:21:33. > :21:34.Hunt at some point this morning. The head of the Metropolitan Police

:21:35. > :21:36.suggests officers investigating sexual abuse claims should keep

:21:37. > :21:39.an open mind, and not automatically Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has ordered

:21:40. > :21:43.a review into claims of historical Over 40% of parents whose children

:21:44. > :21:50.have cancer feel their concerns about their child's health

:21:51. > :21:53.are ignored by GPs, that's according It's calling for the Government

:21:54. > :21:58.provide better training for the professionals who deal

:21:59. > :22:00.with young people Liverpool football club have dropped

:22:01. > :22:09.plans in increase the price of its most expensive ticket to ?77,

:22:10. > :22:12.and apologised to fans Other top clubs are being urged

:22:13. > :22:30.to rethink their ticket pricing. A large fire has broken out at the

:22:31. > :22:32.tata still planned in Port Talbot. Emergency services are at the scene,

:22:33. > :22:39.there are no reports of casualties. Let's catch up with all

:22:40. > :22:48.the sport now and join Hugh. The Liverpool fans did it?

:22:49. > :22:54.Yes, they will not have to pay the ?77 ticket presses that were looted

:22:55. > :22:58.by the club. The club owner said they did not want to be perceived as

:22:59. > :23:02.greedy, it was quite the opposite. But what about Spain? Less than a

:23:03. > :23:05.third of the stadium in Valencia was for last night after Gary Neville

:23:06. > :23:12.try to salvage some respect after losing the first leg of his final

:23:13. > :23:19.7-0. It has been a torturous time in his first managerial post. Closer to

:23:20. > :23:22.home, it was so close, but so far to Peterborough, they took their

:23:23. > :23:26.fourth-round FA Cup replay to penalties but were beaten by Premier

:23:27. > :23:30.League side West Brom. And the second round of games in the six

:23:31. > :23:34.Nations, we will look ahead at Scotland's team, which will be

:23:35. > :23:38.announced shortly. And news of Alun Watkins, the Olympic rowing champion

:23:39. > :23:42.with Katherine Grainger in 2012, who has given up her hopes of reaching

:23:43. > :23:45.the Rio Olympics later this year after taking a three-year break from

:23:46. > :23:50.the sport to start a family. We will look at those stories just

:23:51. > :23:52.after 10am. We will speak to Liverpool fans

:23:53. > :23:58.later as well, so pleased for you. Really keen to hear from you this

:23:59. > :24:01.morning if your child has experienced a delay

:24:02. > :24:02.in diagnosis of cancer. One charity tells this programme

:24:03. > :24:05.that over 40% of parents whose children have cancer felt

:24:06. > :24:14.their concerns about their child's Not just the first time but also the

:24:15. > :24:21.second visit, and potentially the third and fourth visit.

:24:22. > :24:23.The charity Clic Sargent is now calling for the Government

:24:24. > :24:25.to ensure better training and guidance for the professionals

:24:26. > :24:28.who care for children and young people in this situation.

:24:29. > :24:40.Here are the stories of two people whose lives have been changed

:24:41. > :24:46.All my friends and family were telling me that

:24:47. > :24:55.I was a hypocondriac and joking, and like I'd get a headache

:24:56. > :24:59.and I would be like, "Oh, my God, I've got a brain tumour,"

:25:00. > :25:01.and everyone was taking the mick, basically.

:25:02. > :25:04.I found the lymph nodes, went to the doctor and he told me

:25:05. > :25:20.that it was probably because I had an infection.

:25:21. > :25:23.In all, we actually went to the GP five times,

:25:24. > :25:28.but that was seeing three different doctors.

:25:29. > :25:31.I think it was on the second visit that the doctor referred us

:25:32. > :25:42.We went to the local hospital, had an in-patient stay

:25:43. > :25:44.for a few days, but they again just

:25:45. > :25:47.assumed it was constipation and gave her treatment for that.

:25:48. > :25:55.They didn't do any other tests or scans.

:25:56. > :25:57.The specialist, obviously I don't know what they saw,

:25:58. > :26:00.but was obviously very concerned and booked her in for an MRI

:26:01. > :26:04.I kept going back probably around six or seven months to the same

:26:05. > :26:08.doctor at the same surgery and he kept telling me

:26:09. > :26:10.there was nothing wrong, I was fine, it wasn't cancer

:26:11. > :26:20.and I was being too worried about it.

:26:21. > :26:22.It was sort of a relief more than anything.

:26:23. > :26:25.Obviously I was upset but I knew that something was wrong and now

:26:26. > :26:28.it was getting dealt with so it was more of a relief

:26:29. > :26:35.They took us into a room and basically said that it was

:26:36. > :26:37.a malignant tumour, which just completely floored us.

:26:38. > :26:39.We hadn't even considered cancer as being a possible option.

:26:40. > :26:43.I think I likened it at the time to being hit by a freight train.

:26:44. > :26:50.Just completely out of the blue, hadn't even considered it

:26:51. > :26:53.as an option and it just, your world is just turned upside

:26:54. > :26:57.Your mind is on overdrive, you don't know what to do,

:26:58. > :27:08.The chemotherapy obviously does the trick but it has a massive

:27:09. > :27:14.Not only the tiredness, but problems with her muscles,

:27:15. > :27:19.to the point where she had difficulty walking.

:27:20. > :27:23.Obviously having to go around in a wheelchair,

:27:24. > :27:26.it was very difficult for her, very difficult for any young person

:27:27. > :27:36.She did start to feel better, her hair was growing back

:27:37. > :27:38.so she wasn't having the sort of poorly feelings

:27:39. > :28:03.We thought we were doing really well.

:28:04. > :28:07.That was probably more upsetting this time than it was last time,

:28:08. > :28:10.but I had the feeling that the cancer had come back

:28:11. > :28:15.already so I'd spent a lot of time upset obviously...

:28:16. > :28:32.I'd gone abroad and lived my life and done OK and then coming back

:28:33. > :28:35.to the UK it sort of, like, all the emotions I'd ignored in 2011

:28:36. > :28:46.I think this time it was losing my hair, because it had grown back

:28:47. > :28:49.and I didn't look like I'd ever had cancer.

:28:50. > :28:52.It's always in the back of your mind - relapse.

:28:53. > :28:55.Certainly having been through this journey and having met a lot

:28:56. > :29:00.of other parents of children with cancer, it's one of the things

:29:01. > :29:02.that's always there, always that fear of relapse.

:29:03. > :29:07.So when we found out, it was devastating.

:29:08. > :29:10.I never thought that I would die from cancer or anything like that,

:29:11. > :29:17.It's more the fact that I feel like I'll never get to go abroad

:29:18. > :29:20.again or travel again or it's never going to have an end.

:29:21. > :29:23.She didn't have any hair so she'd always wear a head scarf,

:29:24. > :29:28.she had a selection of different head scarfs, depending on which mood

:29:29. > :29:30.of the day would depend which head scarf she wore.

:29:31. > :29:34.She got pneumonia so she had a five-day stay in QMC in hospital

:29:35. > :29:40.and it was during that time that I think they realised

:29:41. > :29:44.that there was nothing really more that could be done, treatment-wise.

:29:45. > :29:46.They'd tried pretty much everything and she was

:29:47. > :29:51.So on the Friday she was brought home by ambulance

:29:52. > :30:01.We had the community nursing team visit once or twice a day just

:30:02. > :30:03.to make sure her medication was OK and she was comfortable

:30:04. > :30:14.She was with us for another six days.

:30:15. > :30:20.So finally we lost her on 18th September, 2014.

:30:21. > :30:27.And you lose, not just a part of you and them,

:30:28. > :30:35.And it's the life that they haven't had, you know, the chances in life

:30:36. > :30:38.that they haven't had, you know, maybe didn't have the chance to go

:30:39. > :30:40.to school, haven't had the chance to have a boyfriend,

:30:41. > :30:42.girlfriend, haven't had the chance to get married,

:30:43. > :30:50.Now that all the treatment's over and I'm not back for another three

:30:51. > :30:53.months for a scan, I can just like focus on getting my health back

:30:54. > :30:55.on track and just getting back to normality.

:30:56. > :31:02.I think one of the biggest things about childhood cancer is the fact

:31:03. > :31:06.that there's just not enough awareness.

:31:07. > :31:09.I mean, I know I'm guilty of it because before Hannah was diagnosed

:31:10. > :31:16.You occasionally see it in magazines or on the TV or things like that,

:31:17. > :31:19.but you just don't take any notice of it.

:31:20. > :31:24.So yes, you do question yourself sometimes and you think back,

:31:25. > :31:28.maybe if I'd known or been maybe a little bit more aware,

:31:29. > :31:31.if I'd known the sort of symptoms to look for,

:31:32. > :31:36.Looking back on it now, I can understand that you're not

:31:37. > :31:41.meant to know everything, doctors can't possibly know

:31:42. > :31:43.everything and maybe this certain doctor hadn't dealt with any

:31:44. > :31:50.childhood cancers or young adults with cancer so he just thought

:31:51. > :31:52.it was something innocent and wasn't sinister,

:31:53. > :31:56.so I don't look back with hatred or anything,

:31:57. > :32:05.Keep going back and pestering them until you get referred to hospital

:32:06. > :32:08.because the doctors' surgeries don't have the means necessary to diagnose

:32:09. > :32:10.cancer, the hospitals do, so you need to get referred

:32:11. > :32:19.But it's just have that awareness that it could be,

:32:20. > :32:22.you know, might not be but it could be, and if it is,

:32:23. > :32:24.then getting it caught a lot earlier is going to mean

:32:25. > :32:29.22-year-old Gemma Hakner there and Simon Cross,

:32:30. > :32:37.We can speak now to Emily King Dutton, who's 17 and was diagnosed

:32:38. > :32:53.with cancer a year after first going to her GP with symptoms.

:32:54. > :33:01.Kate Lee, from the children's cancer charity Clic Sargent.

:33:02. > :33:04.Also Dr Anthony Cunliffe, a south London GP, who spends a day

:33:05. > :33:10.a week with the cancer charity Macmillan to improve cancer care.

:33:11. > :33:19.You spend more time with Macmillan so you can find out more? One thing

:33:20. > :33:25.we'll talk about today is education. We feel strongly about GP education

:33:26. > :33:29.and that's part of my role. OK. What is it like when you keep going to

:33:30. > :33:32.the GP to say, look, I don't know what it is but there's smog wrong

:33:33. > :33:36.with me and you go back and back and back and still you get nowhere? You

:33:37. > :33:41.feel like they are not listening to you, you feel frustrated that you

:33:42. > :33:45.know there's something wrong but they don't realise it. Not only are

:33:46. > :33:49.you feeling physically ill, is that stressful? Yes, emotionally, you

:33:50. > :33:54.feel like no-one is listening and you want someone to listen to you.

:33:55. > :33:58.Eventually when you got your diagnosis, how did you react? It was

:33:59. > :34:02.a big shock. I never thought it would be cancer but it was nice to

:34:03. > :34:07.know that I knew what I had and it could be dealt with. Did you think

:34:08. > :34:10.about the delay in that diagnosis and what could have been done had

:34:11. > :34:14.you been taken more seriously earlier? Definitely. I thought if

:34:15. > :34:18.I'd been seen earlier, maybe I could have been dealt with earlier and it

:34:19. > :34:24.would have made a big difference. Kate, how typical is Emily's

:34:25. > :34:28.experience or Simon talking about Hannah or Gemma's experience?

:34:29. > :34:34.Luckily, thankfully, childhood cancer in the UK remains incredibly

:34:35. > :34:39.rare so what we know is that in the terms of how common sit, thankfully

:34:40. > :34:45.not that common but when it happens unfortunately the story is all too

:34:46. > :34:49.common, so our Clic Sergeant survey has recently shown 50% of parents

:34:50. > :34:53.and young people who've been to the doctors with a concern have been on

:34:54. > :34:58.average, three, four visits before they are taken seriously. For me,

:34:59. > :35:02.it's the reality of what that means. I've got two young children myself

:35:03. > :35:06.and when I first read the report, I was trying to put myself in the

:35:07. > :35:10.picture of going back to the GP surgery three or four times worried

:35:11. > :35:14.that I was going to be viewed as a neurotic mother but I know my child

:35:15. > :35:21.and I know something is wrong and if the GP isn't listening to me, if the

:35:22. > :35:25.worst happens, what we found is that actually, the reality is when a

:35:26. > :35:30.child is diagnosed with cancer, at a time when the family should be

:35:31. > :35:34.rallying round, supporting the child, the young person, that

:35:35. > :35:37.actually they are feeling angry, they are not trusting doctors, not

:35:38. > :35:41.trusting that they'll be listened to now, you know and they are feeling

:35:42. > :35:45.guilty. And blaming themselves? Yes, really guilty. Exactly as we heard

:35:46. > :35:50.in the story, should I have pushed harder, should I have said earlier,

:35:51. > :35:55.camped out at the surgery until the doctor done the tests. As a GP Dr

:35:56. > :36:00.Cunliffe, what advice would you give to parents. Emily is now 17, you are

:36:01. > :36:06.in remission aren't you thank goodness, that is brilliant to hear.

:36:07. > :36:10.Yes. But say a 16 or 17-year-old who goes to the GP without their

:36:11. > :36:18.parents, what can you do to get them to listen? One thing we feel

:36:19. > :36:22.strongly about, it's imperative that any young person or adult presenting

:36:23. > :36:26.themselveses to the GP, they must feel listened to. Of course they

:36:27. > :36:30.must but it's not always happening? No, but I feel they must be taken

:36:31. > :36:36.seriously and one of the things that this pole has highlighted is that

:36:37. > :36:40.GPs themselves feel they need more education around this subject -- the

:36:41. > :36:43.poll. It's not just around the signs of cancer, but education around

:36:44. > :36:50.being able to communicate and thereon young people effectively and

:36:51. > :36:55.to their parents and very much so listening to the concern of the

:36:56. > :36:58.young person or the parents. Because sometimes an individual is not

:36:59. > :37:03.necessarily going to reveal to the GP straightaway, you know what, I've

:37:04. > :37:07.been constipated for three weeks and a GP has to have that skill to draw

:37:08. > :37:11.that information out? Absolutely, you are 18, living at university for

:37:12. > :37:14.the first time, it's maybe you have been to the GP for the first time

:37:15. > :37:19.without your mum there and you have got to sit there and talk about some

:37:20. > :37:22.personal symptoms. The likelihood is that unless you have a good GP and

:37:23. > :37:26.one in five said they don't feel overly confident in talking to young

:37:27. > :37:30.people in a way that draw out their concerns in our poll, we spoke to

:37:31. > :37:34.over 1,000 GPs, the truth is that they are not getting to the bottom

:37:35. > :37:38.of the problem and it leaves the young person feeling like no-one's

:37:39. > :37:42.really listening, no-one's helping me explain what I'm going through.

:37:43. > :37:45.From your point of view, in your career, you might only diagnose

:37:46. > :37:51.cancer in a child or young person once, maybe twice. It is rare, as

:37:52. > :37:55.Kate said, thankfully, we does make it hard from a GP's point of view?

:37:56. > :37:59.Absolute lift an average GP may be involved in a new diagnosis of

:38:00. > :38:04.cancer in a child or young person maybe once or twice in their career

:38:05. > :38:08.and the other thing to highlight is, childhood cancer isn't a single

:38:09. > :38:12.entity, it can represent multiple different cancers, what that

:38:13. > :38:16.diversity means is that the challenges are quite wide-ranging

:38:17. > :38:19.and more often than not will represent a benign disease and we

:38:20. > :38:23.need to make sure GPs are educated, not only on the signs and symptoms

:38:24. > :38:32.they see regularly but on the importance of listening when it's a

:38:33. > :38:37.small presentation -- real presentation and it's persistent.

:38:38. > :38:40.There is plenty of relatively simple tests GPs can do to rule some things

:38:41. > :38:44.out to show parents that they are listening and trying. We know if a

:38:45. > :38:48.parent feels like their GP has been trying their best, they won't

:38:49. > :38:51.necessarily think their diagnosis was delayed, they won't be as angry

:38:52. > :38:56.because they felt they were listened to. Even if that takes some time.

:38:57. > :39:04.There are relatively simple tests and GPs need access to specialists.

:39:05. > :39:09.They need to be able to pick up the phone, speak to someone and ask, can

:39:10. > :39:13.I talk this through with you. Great to hear that you are in remission.

:39:14. > :39:17.Thank you very much. Thank you all very much. Sean Duffy, the national

:39:18. > :39:20.Thank you very much. Thank you all clinical director for NHS England

:39:21. > :39:22.told us, early diagnosis must be of the highest priority for cancer

:39:23. > :39:40.patients with all ages: Google's bosses will face questions

:39:41. > :39:47.this morning from MPs. We'll bring you some of the answers live. Back

:39:48. > :39:53.to the breaking news. Ministers are expected to impose a contract on

:39:54. > :39:57.junior doctors later. It comes after the Government's chief negotiator,

:39:58. > :40:01.Sir David Dalton, advised the Government to do whatever it seems

:40:02. > :40:04.necessary to end the deadlock. In a letter published in the last hour,

:40:05. > :40:09.he says, everyone's first preference has always been for a negotiated

:40:10. > :40:14.outcome. Unfortunately, this no longer seems possible. I therefore

:40:15. > :40:17.advise the Government to do whatever it deems necessary to end the

:40:18. > :40:23.uncertainty for the service and to make sure that a new contract is in

:40:24. > :40:25.place as close as possible to the final position put forward to the

:40:26. > :40:33.BMA yesterday. Dr Jonathan Barnes in an

:40:34. > :40:39.anaesthetist in London who took part in yesterday's strike and Dr Dagan

:40:40. > :40:43.Lonsdale is a registrar in the intensive care unit of St George's

:40:44. > :40:48.Hospital in South London. Welcome back of you. Dr Lonsdale, what are

:40:49. > :40:51.you going to do now? We need toe wait and see what Jeremy Hunt has to

:40:52. > :40:54.say in the House of Parliaments today. The first thing I would say

:40:55. > :40:59.is that it's quite a shock to me that they have decided to take this

:41:00. > :41:04.stance. I don't understand what the rush is to gets a contract imposed

:41:05. > :41:07.and I think the concept of imposition just shows a complete

:41:08. > :41:10.failure on behalf of the Department of Health to engage with the

:41:11. > :41:15.professionals who look after patients day in day out and forcing

:41:16. > :41:19.a contract on doctors, doctors who have concerns about that contract,

:41:20. > :41:25.is taking a huge gamble, a huge gamble with patients in the NHS

:41:26. > :41:29.because if it leads to dangerous working practises, the only people

:41:30. > :41:35.who'll suffer are patients. Dr Jonathan Barnes, what will you do?

:41:36. > :41:37.From the outset when Jeremy Hunt talked about medicine lacking

:41:38. > :41:42.vocation and professionalism, we knew which way the negotiations were

:41:43. > :41:45.going to go and it's been aggressive and derisory the whole time. It's

:41:46. > :41:49.very sad we have not reached agreement and for a lot of doctors,

:41:50. > :41:52.if the contract is imposed, they'll be in a position where they may be

:41:53. > :41:56.working in unsafe practise, they may not be able to afford their daily

:41:57. > :42:00.cost-of-living and they'll be looking, like I will, whether you

:42:01. > :42:04.need to look at a career outside medicine or, as a massive amount of

:42:05. > :42:08.people are doing now, whether they need to look abroad, which would be

:42:09. > :42:12.terrible for the NHS. Would you consider withdrawing emergency care

:42:13. > :42:16.cover? I think ultimately, what doctors do in terms of industrial

:42:17. > :42:21.action will be dictated by the BMA. If the BMA chose the option of full

:42:22. > :42:24.withdrawal of care on the proviso there was still consultant cover and

:42:25. > :42:30.patients would be safe, I think I like most other doctors would only

:42:31. > :42:37.support Bull it but only on the provie doe that they would be safe.

:42:38. > :42:41.Do you think that would stop Jeremy Hunt imposing this contract on you

:42:42. > :42:45.Dr Lonsdale? Look, I think it's too early to start talking about further

:42:46. > :42:49.industrial action. We need to hear what Jeremy Hunt has to say and we

:42:50. > :42:54.need to hear the response from the BMA. But my view is that the only

:42:55. > :43:01.way we can look after the patients safely within the NHS is if doctors,

:43:02. > :43:05.the people who work looking after patients day-to-day are involved in

:43:06. > :43:09.the discussions about rotas and working terms and conditions. If we

:43:10. > :43:13.are not involved in those discussions, it's simply people who

:43:14. > :43:20.don't know anything about the job taking a huge gamble with people's

:43:21. > :43:25.lives quite frankly. You asked why now, why this rush, well it's

:43:26. > :43:29.because apparently senior NHS officials are advising the

:43:30. > :43:34.Government that they need to start making plans if a new contract is to

:43:35. > :43:38.be brought in this summer in terms of rotas, detailed review of rotas,

:43:39. > :43:44.staffing before contract offices are made in May in time for the August

:43:45. > :43:49.start date? But why do we need a contract for that August start date.

:43:50. > :43:53.Doctors rotate around hospitals on a four or six monthly basis. There is

:43:54. > :43:58.absolutely no practical reason why the contract needs to be in place by

:43:59. > :44:01.August 2016. Perhaps because the conversations, the negotiations have

:44:02. > :44:06.been going on for years now, perhaps that's why? Well, the negotiations

:44:07. > :44:12.have been taking part for some time with the BMA, but the Government

:44:13. > :44:16.position for the negotiations has changed consistently, particularly

:44:17. > :44:20.with this concept of Jeremy Hunt deciding that he wants to stretch

:44:21. > :44:26.the service over seven days which again doctors view as a potentially

:44:27. > :44:30.dangerous thing to do because we can't stretch the service over seven

:44:31. > :44:33.days without either making doctors work longer hours or taking them

:44:34. > :44:38.from working in the weekworking at weekends. Either of those are going

:44:39. > :44:41.to leave gaps and leave situations where doctors are working in unsafe

:44:42. > :44:45.conditions and that's not acceptable. Simply just to say I've

:44:46. > :44:49.had enough of negotiating, we need to get something done let's do it,

:44:50. > :44:54.doesn't seem to me to have much logic and the most sensible thing to

:44:55. > :44:57.me is for a sensible, negotiated settlement. If that takes time, we

:44:58. > :45:06.just have to accept that. Thank you both very much for your time. Thank

:45:07. > :45:10.you. Dr Dagan Lonsdale said he's shocked and Dr Jonathan Barnes says

:45:11. > :45:16.he will consider leaving the profession or moving abroad if the

:45:17. > :45:20.contracts are imposed. It's coming up 2010 o'clock, here is the latest

:45:21. > :45:24.weather with Carol. It's been a particularly cold start

:45:25. > :45:28.to the day. That will be replaced by sunshine and showers as we go

:45:29. > :45:31.through the day. Some of the showers are wintry, particularly so in the

:45:32. > :45:35.north. Through the course of the morning we'll continue to see the

:45:36. > :45:38.cloud break up and the sun will come out where we don't already have it.

:45:39. > :45:42.Showers in the west and the south-west and we have a weak

:45:43. > :45:45.weather front crossing Scotland that's been producing rain, sleet

:45:46. > :45:49.and snow. Through the afternoon, we could see a wee bit of snow coming

:45:50. > :45:54.out of that at lower levels, but nothing significant. In south-west

:45:55. > :45:59.England, more frequent showers through the afternoon intersporesed

:46:00. > :46:02.with sunshine. The same across Wales, sunshine and showers, wintry

:46:03. > :46:04.with height, and for Northern Ireland, again bright spells or

:46:05. > :46:13.sunny skies. Moving into Scotland, still some

:46:14. > :46:19.showers through the afternoon but there will be some sunshine, wintry

:46:20. > :46:24.again. You can see how that front is fizzling out as it heads south.

:46:25. > :46:28.Northern England, sunshine, a few showers and across the Midlands,

:46:29. > :46:31.East Anglia, Kent, down to the Isle of Wight, again back into sunny

:46:32. > :46:35.skies. Through the evening and overnight still a few showers around

:46:36. > :46:39.and then this area of low pressure brings rain across south-west

:46:40. > :46:44.England and the Channel Islands, but through this central and northern

:46:45. > :46:48.suede of the UK it will be cold enough for some frost and of course

:46:49. > :46:51.the risk of ice. We could see some patchy fog first thing in the

:46:52. > :46:55.morning, which will be slow to lift if you get it. Tomorrow is similar

:46:56. > :47:00.to today, bright spells, sunny spells, showers, some of them

:47:01. > :47:04.wintry. The dragon on a cold easterly wind across Scotland,

:47:05. > :47:08.temperatures between five and nine -- being dragged in.

:47:09. > :47:10.Hello, I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme if you've

:47:11. > :47:24.It looks like junior doctors in England will have new working

:47:25. > :47:32.It comes after the Government's cheap adviser said they should do

:47:33. > :47:37.whatever is necessary. The most senior police officer

:47:38. > :47:39.in this country says police should change their approach to allegations

:47:40. > :47:42.of rape and sexual abuse - and not automatically

:47:43. > :47:47.believe the complainant. It is a grave danger at the moment

:47:48. > :47:51.with the advice around that there is a tendency to think we will always

:47:52. > :47:55.believe any complaint made, and that is not good for an investigator.

:47:56. > :47:56.Many people getting in touch about that this morning, I will read some

:47:57. > :47:58.comments in the next hour or so. And bosses at Google face questions

:47:59. > :48:01.from MPs this morning over their controversial

:48:02. > :48:02.?130 million tax deal. And a 22-year-old man

:48:03. > :48:08.will be sentenced today for killing his unborn baby

:48:09. > :48:10.by kicking and stamping We'll speak to another woman

:48:11. > :48:33.who suffered a similar attack. The Government's chief negotiator in

:48:34. > :48:36.the junior doctors dispute has told the Health Secretary there is no

:48:37. > :48:41.realistic prospect of a deal. Doctors leaders have turned down

:48:42. > :48:43.what is described as a final offer from the Government. Ministers are

:48:44. > :48:47.now expected to impose a new contract on them.

:48:48. > :48:49.The head of the Metropolitan Police suggests officers investigating

:48:50. > :48:52.sexual abuse claims should keep an open mind, and not automatically

:48:53. > :48:55.Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has ordered a review into claims of historical

:48:56. > :49:03.Over 40% of parents whose children have cancer feel their concerns

:49:04. > :49:06.about their child's health are ignored by GPs, that's according

:49:07. > :49:11.It's calling for the Government provide better training

:49:12. > :49:13.for the professionals who deal with young people

:49:14. > :49:23.Liverpool FC has dropped plans in increase the price

:49:24. > :49:25.of its most expensive ticket to ?77, and apologised to fans

:49:26. > :49:32.Other top clubs are being urged to rethink their ticket pricing.

:49:33. > :49:40.Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh.

:49:41. > :49:44.Yes, fans staying away due to ticket prices, but how about Gary Neville's

:49:45. > :49:50.Valencia? They played in the Copa

:49:51. > :50:00.Del Rey last night against Barcelona,

:50:01. > :50:04.but only 16,000 fans went to the 55,000-seater

:50:05. > :50:05.stadium to watch. Ticket prices aren't their issue -

:50:06. > :50:07.it's the team itself. They were knocked out

:50:08. > :50:10.of the competition, and haven't won a game in the league since Neville

:50:11. > :50:13.took charge in December. Tough times for the former

:50:14. > :50:15.Manchester United and England defender, in his first

:50:16. > :50:19.attempt at management. I thought, what a football club,

:50:20. > :50:21.what an opportunity, what a challenge. The time has come for me

:50:22. > :50:24.to stand up, if I had turned down this job I could have said goodbye

:50:25. > :50:27.to my credibility. Gary Neville's managerial debut ended in defeat as

:50:28. > :50:34.his side exited the Champions League. Have we got time to ask out

:50:35. > :50:41.Spain is going? It is going well, Valencia is a wonderful city, I'm

:50:42. > :50:47.learning the language, my family settled and now my big brother my

:50:48. > :50:53.boss! A dreadful night for Gary Neville last night as his side were

:50:54. > :51:03.beaten 7-0 by Barcelona. I didn't like what I thought. Valencia fans

:51:04. > :51:07.did not deserve that tonight. I have got for belief in myself,

:51:08. > :51:10.full belief in the players, and, from my point of view, the only

:51:11. > :51:18.thing you can do now to turn this around for the club and the fund is

:51:19. > :51:22.win football matches. -- for the club and the fans.

:51:23. > :51:24.So nervous times for Neville, and West Brom head coach Tony Pulis

:51:25. > :51:27.would have been sweating too last night - his Premier League side

:51:28. > :51:30.were taken to penalties in their FA Cup reply by Peterborough of League

:51:31. > :51:34.The match ended 1-1 after an impressive

:51:35. > :51:36.performance by the home side, but this penalty

:51:37. > :51:38.by Peterborough's Lee Angol was the crucial kick.

:51:39. > :51:40.Saved by Ben Foster, the second one he stopped

:51:41. > :51:44.And West Brom go through, to face Reading in the fifth round.

:51:45. > :51:50.Smaller teams from the lower leagues pushing Premier League clubs to the

:51:51. > :51:55.limit, they did that today. Absolutely fantastic, credit to

:51:56. > :51:59.them, to the league they play in and to British football, to have this

:52:00. > :52:04.sort of game, and to be involved in it, yes, it is nerve wracking. It is

:52:05. > :52:05.brilliant that we have come through but Peterborough should take a lot

:52:06. > :52:08.of credit. The London 2012 Olympic rowing gold

:52:09. > :52:10.medallist Anna Watkins has given up in her bid to qualify for the Rio

:52:11. > :52:13.games later this year. Watkins, who won gold in the double

:52:14. > :52:20.sculls with Katharine Grainger in London, returned to the sport

:52:21. > :52:22.last summer after taking a three-year break

:52:23. > :52:24.to have two children. But after recent training

:52:25. > :52:26.with the GB squad the 32-year-old feels she's not at a high enough

:52:27. > :52:35.level to compete in Brazil. And this Scotland and Wales teams

:52:36. > :52:38.for their six Nations meeting this weekend will be announced later this

:52:39. > :52:40.afternoon. I will be back with the headline at about half an hour. See

:52:41. > :52:41.you then. Hello, thank you for

:52:42. > :52:44.joining us this morning - welcome to the programme

:52:45. > :52:46.if you've just joined us. We're on BBC Two and the BBC News

:52:47. > :52:55.Channel until 11am this morning. Quite a lot of you getting in touch

:52:56. > :52:58.about our conversation about how the police deal with allegations of rape

:52:59. > :53:01.and sexual assault. The boss of the Met has suggested police should

:53:02. > :53:03.change their approach to allegations of sexual abuse and not

:53:04. > :53:10.automatically believe the complainant. This tweet, rather

:53:11. > :53:13.concerning that in a time of apparent increased sexual crimes

:53:14. > :53:18.against women Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is voicing disbelief. Another tweet,

:53:19. > :53:21.it is simple, the police should act as if sexual crime complaints are

:53:22. > :53:23.true whilst keeping an open mind. As easy as that.

:53:24. > :53:25.Do keep those coming in. Texts will be charged

:53:26. > :53:28.at the standard network rate. Wherever you are you can

:53:29. > :53:30.watch our programme online via the BBC News app or our website,

:53:31. > :53:41.bbc.co.uk/victoria. Bosses of Google and senior

:53:42. > :53:43.tax office officials are facing questions from MPs right

:53:44. > :53:46.now over the controversial deal under which Google agreed to pay

:53:47. > :53:48.?130 million to the We'll bring you some of it live,

:53:49. > :54:04.but first here's a reminder of why the amount of tax Google pays has

:54:05. > :54:07.faced criticism from almost everyone Google is one of the biggest

:54:08. > :54:12.companies in the world. Every second, 40,000

:54:13. > :54:13.Google searches are made, which adds up to 3.5 billion

:54:14. > :54:16.searches every single day and 1.2 trillion

:54:17. > :54:17.worldwide every year. The UK is one of Google's

:54:18. > :54:19.biggest markets. It makes most of its UK profits

:54:20. > :54:22.through online advertising, but it

:54:23. > :54:23.has come under increasing criticism In 2013, the value of its sales

:54:24. > :54:27.in Britain was ?3.8 billion. The independent Tax Justice Network

:54:28. > :54:38.estimates Google should in fact be paying ?200 million every

:54:39. > :54:43.year in corporation tax. It is that kind of maths that has

:54:44. > :54:46.led to comments like this They do evil in the sense

:54:47. > :54:51.that they do not pay their fair amount of tax for the common good

:54:52. > :54:54.out of economic activity they undertake here in the UK

:54:55. > :54:56.and the profits they earn I think that is

:54:57. > :55:05.reprehensible and wrong. So how does Google manage to pay

:55:06. > :55:09.the amount of tax it does legally? Essentially it says its European

:55:10. > :55:12.headquarters are in Ireland and that the UK operation,

:55:13. > :55:16.which employs 2300 people, is simply an agency

:55:17. > :55:20.of its Dublin office. It means Google can pay corporation

:55:21. > :55:26.tax in Ireland at the lower rate of 12.5%, compared

:55:27. > :55:30.with 20% in the UK. Last month's agreement

:55:31. > :55:33.between Google and the UK tax authorities to pay ?130 million

:55:34. > :55:38.in back taxes in Britain has been widely criticised,

:55:39. > :55:39.but the search giant insists they have

:55:40. > :55:43.always played fair. We have followed the rules

:55:44. > :55:46.as they were and we are now going to be following the rules

:55:47. > :55:48.of the change. We want to move fast

:55:49. > :55:51.because we want to ensure Really as a company we want to focus

:55:52. > :55:55.on investing and hiring This is a real vindication of this

:55:56. > :55:59.Government's approach. The Chancellor George Osborne

:56:00. > :56:08.described the deal as a victory while Labour's John McDonnell said

:56:09. > :56:10.the sums were trivial. Most people find it unacceptable

:56:11. > :56:13.and I think we need to know why. Meanwhile it is reported some

:56:14. > :56:16.European tax authorities are chasing It is even more important for us

:56:17. > :56:20.as Google to do the hard work. This week we also learned

:56:21. > :56:24.that the tech giant's chief exec Sundar Pichai has been awarded

:56:25. > :56:27.?138 million in shares, 8 million more than it has agreed

:56:28. > :56:30.to pay in tax for the last ten That makes him the highest-paid

:56:31. > :56:51.chief exec in the world. The head of Google, Matt Britton, is

:56:52. > :56:57.being quizzed now let's dip in and have a watch.

:56:58. > :57:02.Further questions on how we were established in 2002 and 2003, which

:57:03. > :57:07.is before I started here so I was unaware. But the information was

:57:08. > :57:12.passed to the HMRC and considered... We will be talking to HMRC shortly,

:57:13. > :57:20.but you are already taxing my patience and the patience of

:57:21. > :57:24.hard-working taxpayers. You were a convincing win is in 2012, but let's

:57:25. > :57:29.remember that the National Audit Office have told us that they were

:57:30. > :57:36.not able to demonstrably prove that the evidence you gave in 2012 wasn't

:57:37. > :57:45.materially inaccurate, and I would draw your attention in particular to

:57:46. > :57:49.evidence that subsequently appeared after the 2012 hearing, which showed

:57:50. > :57:52.that UK staff carried out a substance of work leading to

:57:53. > :57:57.contracts with major UK clients and that there was evidence around

:57:58. > :58:04.payslips showing sales related bonus payments and that is something that

:58:05. > :58:09.you did not admit in the course of a very rigorous and robust questioning

:58:10. > :58:17.in 2012. My point is, you will forgive us if we are slightly less

:58:18. > :58:21.than convinced by the evidence. The HMRC, in their six-year process, we

:58:22. > :58:24.provided for transparency so that they could see details of contracts,

:58:25. > :58:27.interview staff, they could see details of contracts,

:58:28. > :58:31.customers, understand how our systems work and address all those

:58:32. > :58:34.questions that you raise, including the payment of commission and what

:58:35. > :58:42.exactly staff were doing in all aspects of the process. The detail

:58:43. > :58:46.was extremely rigorous and we provided for transparency to them. I

:58:47. > :58:50.should mention at this point in the interest of being fully covered,

:58:51. > :58:52.HMRC asked us for permission to doubles more information than they

:58:53. > :58:55.would normally in respect of the hearing today and we have given that

:58:56. > :59:00.permission. That is the president of Google

:59:01. > :59:13.Europe. Let me introduce our guests, who are sitting here patiently.

:59:14. > :59:15.Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Seema

:59:16. > :59:18.Malhotra, Barney Jones, a former Google employee who handed

:59:19. > :59:20.over tens of thousands of emails to investigators,

:59:21. > :59:22.Mark Littlewood, Director General of the Institute of Economic Affairs,

:59:23. > :59:24.who says Google hasn't done anything wrong,

:59:25. > :59:26.and David Babbs, Executive Director of 38 Degrees, who created

:59:27. > :59:28.a petition calling on the EU Competition Commissioner

:59:29. > :59:29.to investigate the Google-HMRC deal.

:59:30. > :59:33.I just want to play a clip from when Matt Britton was questioned earlier

:59:34. > :59:37.by MPs about his salary. Let's look at this. ?130 million? That's

:59:38. > :59:44.correct. We will get into what that involves later, but we're here for

:59:45. > :59:49.taxpayers in Britain. Do you hear the anger and frustration out there

:59:50. > :59:55.that with those huge figures you settle for a figure of ?130 million?

:59:56. > :00:00.Absolutely, and I worked with the Chancellor to come and talk to you

:00:01. > :00:04.about this. I understand the anger. Do you really understand the anger?

:00:05. > :00:10.What did you get paid? If it is relevant I will happily disclose

:00:11. > :00:17.that the committee. I'm asking what you get paid. I will disclose that

:00:18. > :00:23.if it is relevant. I am asking you, so it is relevant. I do not have the

:00:24. > :00:27.figure... So you don't know what you are paid?

:00:28. > :00:32.Is it relevant what the Google president of Europe gets paid? If we

:00:33. > :00:37.know what the chief exec of Google is getting in share options this

:00:38. > :00:43.week, which is more than Google were paying in the UK the ten years of

:00:44. > :00:48.corporation tax, I think we have a right to have some transparency. He

:00:49. > :00:52.also was talking about how HMRC have finally asked for permission to

:00:53. > :00:56.share some more details about Google's corporation tax details,

:00:57. > :01:01.and said they have given permission. Why not talk about what you are

:01:02. > :01:02.getting? People will want to know. It is an issue of transparency and

:01:03. > :01:11.openness. What Google has been doing is legal.

:01:12. > :01:16.That is the bottom line? We want to know on what legal basis the inquiry

:01:17. > :01:21.took place with HMRC, what was the process by which the conclusion was

:01:22. > :01:26.reached that ?130 million was a fair deal. We believe this is an issue of

:01:27. > :01:28.fairness,' a really important issue, that if Google paid what we

:01:29. > :01:34.understand should have been their tax liability in one year alone, in

:01:35. > :01:41.2014, that would have paid for 4,000 police officers. Sure, but... The

:01:42. > :01:45.Chancellor's not stood up to deal with this. This deal goes back ten

:01:46. > :01:49.years to when Labour was last in power. You had the chance to change

:01:50. > :01:53.the law to make sure Google paid the corporation tax in the UK that other

:01:54. > :01:57.companies paid? I think what's important to also note is that this

:01:58. > :02:02.inquiry... Could you just address that point? It started under the

:02:03. > :02:07.Labour Government, but also that the tax avoidance measures that Labour

:02:08. > :02:10.brought in have been shown recently by independent analysis to be likely

:02:11. > :02:14.to bring in ten times more in tax than the Government... Completely

:02:15. > :02:19.ignoring what I've said to you. You had five years to make Google pay

:02:20. > :02:22.corporation tax. The profits will have been growing as well in the

:02:23. > :02:27.last five or six years. What we are saying is that we need transparency

:02:28. > :02:31.and openness. We need to see country by country reporting. The last

:02:32. > :02:35.Labour Government didn't make them pay the taxes? Look, I think we were

:02:36. > :02:38.bringing in measures, we were recognising the problem and that's

:02:39. > :02:42.why also the investigation was started. But you make a fair point,

:02:43. > :02:47.which is that this is not an issue that Governments have been taking

:02:48. > :02:49.seriously. Companies have also been changing, multinational companies,

:02:50. > :02:52.inter-Nat-based multinational companies particularly have now

:02:53. > :02:56.started calling the shots. It's vital the tax system catches up with

:02:57. > :03:02.that internationally as well. OK, let me bring in... If I can make the

:03:03. > :03:06.last point. We have asked the Chancellor why the Government asked

:03:07. > :03:10.the Tory MEPs to vote against the tax avoidance measures last year and

:03:11. > :03:14.we are still waiting for an answer. You don't think Google have anything

:03:15. > :03:19.to apologise for? No, I don't. The entire tax rule book of the UK is

:03:20. > :03:25.ridiculously complicated. I think about 21,000 pages in length now. By

:03:26. > :03:27.way of comparison, the rules of association football which are

:03:28. > :03:32.controversial in their own right, are about 140 pages in length. It's

:03:33. > :03:36.a point that political parties always make in opposition and say,

:03:37. > :03:39.if we get into Government, we'll simplify it? It's the point George

:03:40. > :03:46.Osborne made and he's added to the tax code. When you get a rule book

:03:47. > :03:49.that complicated you get political arguments about what people feel in

:03:50. > :03:54.their bones is a fair level of cash to pay. I thought that exchange was

:03:55. > :03:58.ridiculous. Whatever you think Google's tax corporation liability

:03:59. > :04:03.is, it has no bearing at all on what they pay their executives. You don't

:04:04. > :04:08.pay corporation tax in a ratio to what you are paying your staff. It's

:04:09. > :04:12.an irrelevant question and it's not reasonable under a country that

:04:13. > :04:15.wants to live under the rule of law that any individual or company

:04:16. > :04:19.should pay becomes a matter of a political debate. You need a clear

:04:20. > :04:29.rule book, people working for the tax authorities with a clear

:04:30. > :04:41.calculator and you need to be able to work out what should be paid.

:04:42. > :04:49.When we look at a company like Google, I think we see a problem

:04:50. > :04:53.both with Google and HMRC. We see a problem with HMRC because we are

:04:54. > :04:57.concerned the deal is being done in secret, that we perceive a lot of

:04:58. > :05:03.cosiness to be happening between the multinational companies and the

:05:04. > :05:07.likes of HMRC. At the same time, we see on Google's side, an aggressive

:05:08. > :05:11.approach to this from a company which operates in the UK if they

:05:12. > :05:16.have a fire in their office they'll expect the Fire Brigade to come and

:05:17. > :05:21.put it out, if staff are ill, they'll go to an NHS hospital, if

:05:22. > :05:26.there is a burglarly the police will come. If everybody did what Google

:05:27. > :05:31.did, this country would be in a mess. Is that a message to the MPs

:05:32. > :05:35.who set the rules or the company? The pressure should be on both to

:05:36. > :05:39.behave themselves, they should be held to account. Barney, you left

:05:40. > :05:42.the company ten years ago, what is the issue for you, how do they

:05:43. > :05:47.manage to avoid tax in the way they do and it's legal? I think it's

:05:48. > :05:50.absolutely incredible, you know, I know a lot of businesses and Google

:05:51. > :05:54.is one of the only businesses I know that spends most of its time trying

:05:55. > :05:59.to belittle the contribution of its British MPs. That quickly came to my

:06:00. > :06:03.attention because I thought, why are they saying things like, we don't

:06:04. > :06:07.sell in the UK, there are no sales staff, and obviously I then realised

:06:08. > :06:12.it's to do with the tax position and how much tax people might perceive

:06:13. > :06:18.they owe. It's like most Google employees. I would like to see more

:06:19. > :06:23.clarity. I would like to see HMRC really spell out which rules they

:06:24. > :06:29.are applying to Google and why is it a company that has 4,000 staff in

:06:30. > :06:34.the UK that's had the staff build some of the major products is such

:06:35. > :06:40.little account to Google that they pay virtually no tax on it. That's a

:06:41. > :06:44.really important point. There's been a debate about whether or not Google

:06:45. > :06:47.has a permanent base in the UK, what economic activity is done here.

:06:48. > :06:51.There is been quite an issue, not just about the law but

:06:52. > :06:54.interpretation of the law. That is why we have been calling. We had our

:06:55. > :06:58.debate in Parliament that Labour led. For the Chancellor to come

:06:59. > :07:02.clean, how much has he been involved, has he asked questions

:07:03. > :07:05.about this as well. He's been at the Super Bowl more than he's been in

:07:06. > :07:09.Parliament talking about this issue over the last ten days so the

:07:10. > :07:12.British people will be wanting answers, we believe it needs much

:07:13. > :07:17.more transparency and it's a big issue of fairness. Doesn't the fact

:07:18. > :07:22.that Google has paid back taxes for the last ten years show something

:07:23. > :07:26.wasn't right? Clearly. They have paid ?130 million in back taxes

:07:27. > :07:30.correct but the problem is that, especially over corporation tax, you

:07:31. > :07:34.get into an area where essentially contestable. How much of Google's

:07:35. > :07:40.work is the number of Brit going to Google, how much is it the brilliant

:07:41. > :07:44.algorithm designed in America, how much is it the brilliant campaign

:07:45. > :07:48.designed somewhere else and we are going to find when companies operate

:07:49. > :07:52.across borders, it will be a matter of opinion where their profits come

:07:53. > :07:56.from. When tax becomes a matter of opinion, you get into this mess an

:07:57. > :07:58.it will apply to lots more companies than Google in the future. Thank you

:07:59. > :08:06.very much all of you. Before 11 we'll bring

:08:07. > :08:09.you more on that story about Liverpool Football Club

:08:10. > :08:42.scrapping plans to put up ticket Kevin Wilson was found guilty of

:08:43. > :08:46.child destruction. It's the crime of killing an unborn but viable foetus

:08:47. > :08:50.and it carries a maximum life sentence in prison. Convictions in

:08:51. > :08:55.England and Wales are rare with around a dozen cases in the last

:08:56. > :08:59.decade. We can talk now to 27-year-old Lauren Oliver, she was

:09:00. > :09:04.stabbed five times in the stomach by her ex-boyfriend when she was seven

:09:05. > :09:08.months pregnant I think weren't you Lauren? Thank you very much for

:09:09. > :09:12.coming on the programme and for talking about this really difficult

:09:13. > :09:17.issue. I do appreciate your time. When you found out you were

:09:18. > :09:22.pregnant, your relationship with your ex-boyfriend was already over.

:09:23. > :09:30.And he told you that you should have an abortion didn't he? Yes, he told

:09:31. > :09:35.me I had to get rid of her, it wasn't negotiable. How did you

:09:36. > :09:39.react? I told him I wouldn't do it. You were absolutely determined? Yes.

:09:40. > :09:45.It was after that that he took a decision to assault you. What

:09:46. > :09:49.happened? On the 11th June, 2014, I arrived back home after taking my

:09:50. > :09:54.other daughter to school and as I got to my door, I noticed he was

:09:55. > :10:00.stood behind me. I felt a blow to my stomach. I thought I'd been punched

:10:01. > :10:05.but it turns out I'd been stabbed. I fell into my door and he kicked my

:10:06. > :10:10.on to my back and stabbed me another four times. It was as blatant and

:10:11. > :10:14.brazen as that? Yes. And you are clear that's because he didn't want

:10:15. > :10:18.you to have this child? Yes, he were adamant I had to get rid of her.

:10:19. > :10:21.When you arrived at the hospital I think I'm right in saying that they

:10:22. > :10:26.couldn't detect a heartbeat. What happened after that? They moved it

:10:27. > :10:29.around for a bit and they managed to pick one up but she was in the

:10:30. > :10:33.breach position, on the opposite side. Did you think they are going

:10:34. > :10:38.to be able to save my daughter at that point? What were you thinking?

:10:39. > :10:43.I'd kind of already convinced myself that she'd died, so to hear that

:10:44. > :10:48.they'd picked a heartbeat up, it were obviously the best feeling. You

:10:49. > :10:54.gave birth to a gorgeous baby girl, she was premature? Yes. In terms of

:10:55. > :11:01.the treatment after that, what were the medical tofessionals able to do?

:11:02. > :11:06.-- medical professionals able to do? She was in the NCU because she

:11:07. > :11:12.couldn't breathe but they were really good. Nicholas is serving at

:11:13. > :11:15.least ten years, could be longer, for attempted child destruction and

:11:16. > :11:22.assault. How did you react to that sentence? He initially got sentenced

:11:23. > :11:28.to 29 years and he got told they'd run concurrent which he had to serve

:11:29. > :11:33.19. He's been told he can apply for parole after ten, so it seems to get

:11:34. > :11:37.less and less. How do you respond to the fact that he can apply for

:11:38. > :11:41.parole after ten years after what he tried to do to you? I'm not happy

:11:42. > :11:45.that he'll be out after ten years because she'll only be ten, she'll

:11:46. > :11:49.only be a child herself but there's nothing I can do about it.

:11:50. > :11:53.You must have thought about this. Will you talk to your daughter about

:11:54. > :11:57.what happened? I will when she gets older, I'm going to have to try to

:11:58. > :12:00.explain it to her but I've kept all the articles from the newspaper and

:12:01. > :12:03.magazines soshe can have a read through them herself to try and

:12:04. > :12:09.understand what happened. And why is it important for you to

:12:10. > :12:13.reveal that to her? She's going to find out and I don't want her to

:12:14. > :12:17.hear it from other people if I haven't told her myself. I would

:12:18. > :12:25.rather be the one to let her know what happened. How old is she now?

:12:26. > :12:29.20 months. What's she like? A madam. She's good though. OK. Well, thank

:12:30. > :12:34.you very much. Thank you. Thank you for talking to us and coming on the

:12:35. > :12:40.programme, we really appreciate it. Thank you. Still to come before 11:

:12:41. > :12:45.That U-turn by look Football Club scrapping plans to put up ticket

:12:46. > :12:49.prices following pressure from fans, it doesn't happen very often but

:12:50. > :12:54.when it does it's a good feeling for football supporters. We'll bring you

:12:55. > :12:59.reaction from the fans and a former FA executive. And Baroness Williams,

:13:00. > :13:03.one of the first MPs to sit in Cabinet, retires, one of the first

:13:04. > :13:05.female MPs I should say. We'll talk to her live about her five decades

:13:06. > :13:17.of political life. The main news so far this morning:

:13:18. > :13:20.The Government's chief negotiator in the junior doctor dispute has told

:13:21. > :13:24.England's Health Secretary there is no realistic prospect of a deal. He

:13:25. > :13:28.said the Government must now do whatever it thinks necessary to end

:13:29. > :13:31.the deadlock after the body representing doctors turned down

:13:32. > :13:36.what's been described as a final offer from the Government.

:13:37. > :13:40.The Metropolitan Police commissioner says detectives should change their

:13:41. > :13:48.approach to sexual abuse and rape claims. Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has

:13:49. > :13:52.ordered a review into this. He says officers shouldn't automatically

:13:53. > :13:56.believe the alleged victim. Over 40% of parents whose children have

:13:57. > :14:01.cancer feel their concerns about their child's health were ignored

:14:02. > :14:06.initially by GPs. That is according to the charity Clic Sergeant, which

:14:07. > :14:08.is calling on the Government to provide better training for

:14:09. > :14:13.professionals who deal with children with cancer. A large fire has broken

:14:14. > :14:16.out at Tata Steel plant in Port Talbot. It's believed to have

:14:17. > :14:20.started in an oven. It's now been contained. Emergency services are at

:14:21. > :14:24.the scene but there are no reports of any casualties. Bosses of Google

:14:25. > :14:28.and senior tax office officials are facing questions from MPs right now

:14:29. > :14:32.over the controversial deal under which Google agreed to pay ?130

:14:33. > :14:36.million to the Government in back taxes.

:14:37. > :14:46.Those are the headlines. Here is all the sport now with Hugh.

:14:47. > :14:50.Only 16,000 Valencia fans attended the 55,000 capacity stadium as Gary

:14:51. > :14:54.Neville's side earned themselves at least a shred of respect with a 1-1

:14:55. > :14:58.cup draw against Barcelona having lost the first leg 7-0. Closer to

:14:59. > :15:03.home, League One side Peterborough came close to an FA Cup shock but

:15:04. > :15:04.were ultimately beaten on penalties as the Premier League's West Brom

:15:05. > :15:08.went through to the fifth round. Athletics' world governing body has

:15:09. > :15:10.lost another commercial partner. This time food and drink giant

:15:11. > :15:12.Nestle have ended their association with the IAAF because of

:15:13. > :15:14.the 'negative publicity' around And Olympic rowing gold medallist

:15:15. > :15:24.Anna Watkins has given up hope of defending her title

:15:25. > :15:26.in Rio later this year, after her return from a three-year

:15:27. > :15:31.break in which she had two children. And that's all for now,

:15:32. > :15:42.but I will be back with more sport Let's go back to Norman Smith more

:15:43. > :15:45.details on the fact that a new contract will be imposed on junior

:15:46. > :15:51.doctors. I guess the key question is, what do

:15:52. > :15:55.the BMA do now, the British Medical Association, how do they respond?

:15:56. > :15:59.They said they will wait and hear exactly what Jeremy Hunt has to say

:16:00. > :16:02.before they come out with a formal response, but talking to people here

:16:03. > :16:06.at Westminster who have conversations with the BMA, they

:16:07. > :16:12.fully expect them to continue with the campaign of industrial action.

:16:13. > :16:15.That raises the question of more operations being shelved and, in the

:16:16. > :16:21.background, the nuclear option, because you remember a fortnight or

:16:22. > :16:25.so ago they cancelled the threat of an all out strike, that is to say

:16:26. > :16:30.not providing any emergency cover at all. That really is the nuclear

:16:31. > :16:35.option, and I guess there will be a lot of tossing and turning within

:16:36. > :16:39.the BMA as to whether they put that back on the table, because that

:16:40. > :16:41.really is a massive, massive step for them to decide, actually, we

:16:42. > :17:02.will withdraw all cover. But certainly Labour and

:17:03. > :17:05.other people I have spoken to take the view that the BMA are not going

:17:06. > :17:08.to back down, they will not just pack up their tent and accept what

:17:09. > :17:10.Jeremy Hunt has done, which means we have the prospect of rolling

:17:11. > :17:12.industrial action in the health service, which I imagine nobody, not

:17:13. > :17:14.patients, not doctors, not politicians, once, but it could be

:17:15. > :17:15.what we now face. Thank you, Norman. More from Norman

:17:16. > :17:21.should there be anything to report. Before 11am we will talk to

:17:22. > :17:24.Liverpool football fans who are really happy that the club has

:17:25. > :17:30.scrapped plans for a big rise in ticket prices after a walk-out last

:17:31. > :17:32.week. Completely changed their minds, that doesn't happen often, we

:17:33. > :17:35.will talk about that before 11am. But first, one of Britain's most

:17:36. > :17:38.colourful politicians is retiring She's Baroness Shirley Williams,

:17:39. > :17:42.she's spent 50 years in British politics and was one of the first

:17:43. > :18:52.female MPs to sit in Cabinet. Now let's talk to

:18:53. > :19:03.Baroness Shirley Williams Bah only 85, White are you

:19:04. > :19:08.retiring?! There are lots of other things I would like to do X back row

:19:09. > :19:11.I want to talk to you about the fact that it looks like this contract

:19:12. > :19:15.will be imposed on junior doctors by Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary.

:19:16. > :19:20.The NHS was your last speech in Parliament, what do you think junior

:19:21. > :19:23.doctors should do now, continue with industrial action, withdraw

:19:24. > :19:30.emergency cover? A nuclear option could blow up the thing that is a

:19:31. > :19:34.threat to it, and there is a danger the NHS might be broken by this. It

:19:35. > :19:38.means two things, on one side the junior doctors have got to be clear

:19:39. > :19:43.about what is their minimum requirement, and let it be known to

:19:44. > :19:47.the public, not just a small groups of conciliators and so forth.

:19:48. > :19:50.Secondly, I think the select Committee in Parliament, which is a

:19:51. > :19:54.joint committee of different parties, has got to think carefully

:19:55. > :19:59.about putting forward a proposal that would lift some of the endless

:20:00. > :20:04.financial pressure on the NHS, because the NHS runs at the lower

:20:05. > :20:08.share of national income than virtually any other country in the

:20:09. > :20:12.world, it is remarkable it has held together. Even though health

:20:13. > :20:18.spending is protected? That just means they don't add more to it. We

:20:19. > :20:22.are pushing people all the time for more productivity, so what we need

:20:23. > :20:27.to do is have more party agreement to some solid additional financing

:20:28. > :20:31.for the NHS, and if it means another 1p on income tax, so be it, we have

:20:32. > :20:35.to get out of the mess we are in now. But you think this stalemate

:20:36. > :20:41.between the Health Secretary and junior doctors could break the NHS?

:20:42. > :20:45.It could break the NHS. According to the BMA, more than half of the young

:20:46. > :20:50.doctors being trained say they want to work abroad. That means we are

:20:51. > :20:53.spending something like ?200,000 on training them, then they go

:20:54. > :20:57.someplace else. It doesn't be exempt. We have got to have a

:20:58. > :21:02.different approach, and what that means is solid expectation that the

:21:03. > :21:18.NHS can look to additional money, not huge amounts, maybe 1%

:21:19. > :21:22.or 2% of taxation, but we needed to give doctors the certainty that they

:21:23. > :21:25.have a career within the NHS. Many think they haven't and many are

:21:26. > :21:27.talking about giving away. Let me read this from the NHS Chief

:21:28. > :21:29.Executive, he has said: Drawn-out industrial action would cause

:21:30. > :21:31.disruption to patients relying on NHS care, and the NHS is right to

:21:32. > :21:34.say a contract should now be implemented for junior doctors.

:21:35. > :21:37.More reaction will keep coming in, I have got so many questions about

:21:38. > :21:45.your career and personal life. When you became an MP it took four goes,

:21:46. > :21:52.ten years? Three. Three goes. But that was not unusual, it was hard to

:21:53. > :21:57.become a female MP. You said that was because you were female and

:21:58. > :22:01.Catholic, is it any easier now? It is, we were regarded them as people

:22:02. > :22:05.who should be patronised, I remember being patronised by all sorts of

:22:06. > :22:12.aldermen in the House of Commons. Silly things, like the toilets were

:22:13. > :22:17.called members only, but when you opened the door they were used

:22:18. > :22:21.rhinos, not female toilets, we were expected not to be there. There were

:22:22. > :22:25.a few exceptional females, Margaret Thatcher and so on, even if I did

:22:26. > :22:28.not agree with her policies, who made people change their opinion on

:22:29. > :22:33.what female MPs could do, but it was a long struggle and it is

:22:34. > :22:37.continuing. You said you were patronised, but for female MPs now

:22:38. > :22:41.the level of abuse they receive from members of the public on social

:22:42. > :22:46.media, whatever, you would not have had that. They get that now on a

:22:47. > :22:53.daily basis. That is social media, and it means the more extraordinary

:22:54. > :23:02.members of the public are using female MPs as a target of their ire.

:23:03. > :23:06.They directed at the MPs as a sort of symbol. I'm very brightened up

:23:07. > :23:10.the social media, I think it is high time that the social media insisted

:23:11. > :23:14.upon people being not anonymous, even if they don't reveal the names,

:23:15. > :23:20.it is important that the servers actually have those names, because

:23:21. > :23:25.at the moment what we are all doing is giving franchise to some of the

:23:26. > :23:29.most horrible, cruel members of society, without them even having to

:23:30. > :23:33.be responsible for what they say. We do it with newspapers, you don't get

:23:34. > :23:36.a letter to the editor of a newspaper unless you supply your

:23:37. > :23:42.name and address. Isn't it about time we did it with social media?

:23:43. > :23:44.Bay in many cases behave in the most irresponsible way and drive many

:23:45. > :23:50.people close to suicide with horror at what is said about them. Do you

:23:51. > :23:54.think that people, whether it is voters all the media, still

:23:55. > :23:58.pigeonhole female politicians when it comes to certain areas of

:23:59. > :24:03.expertise? Yes, they do a bit. I have spent a lot of my life dealing

:24:04. > :24:09.with the issue of nuclear proliferation and I'm on a board in

:24:10. > :24:12.America, I have been on it for ten years, discussing ways in which, for

:24:13. > :24:17.example, if you take the Iranian peace deal, you can actually start

:24:18. > :24:19.pushing people away from developing nuclear weapons and beginning to

:24:20. > :24:24.move towards a more peaceful outcome. It is wonderful that

:24:25. > :24:27.happened, it is the best thing that has happened all year. Having said

:24:28. > :24:31.that, women are not normally expected to be interested in things

:24:32. > :24:34.like nuclear proliferation, but if they want their kids and

:24:35. > :24:40.grandchildren to live, they had better address the issue. People

:24:41. > :24:44.need to see that, but women are often seem to be interested in a

:24:45. > :24:48.small number of women subjects. Can I read the messages from people who

:24:49. > :24:51.are watching this morning? This tweet, you say you don't like social

:24:52. > :24:55.media but you may like these comments! One says, Baroness

:24:56. > :24:59.Williams, thank you for the doors you have opened for the women coming

:25:00. > :25:08.behind you and for your hard work. Very nice! One says, though, Shirley

:25:09. > :25:14.Williams! Not go as in retire, but as in, good for you! Another says,

:25:15. > :25:19.Baroness Williams is an inspiring figure, you do not need to be a Lib

:25:20. > :25:24.Dem to have regard for her. Very sweet of him but we would like to be

:25:25. > :25:30.a Lib Dem as well! But there are fewer and fewer of you! But we have

:25:31. > :25:39.got some more new members. As have Labour. Can I ask you what

:25:40. > :25:42.got some more new members. you would do right now if you were a

:25:43. > :25:49.member of the Labour Party? Would you leave? Let me jump back for a

:25:50. > :25:54.minute, I would begin by taking those babies and youngsters who are

:25:55. > :25:57.abandoned, we should take at least 3000 or four dozen of them because

:25:58. > :26:03.we have a good structure of child care and child concern in this

:26:04. > :26:05.country -- 4000 of them. We are in a good position to help these

:26:06. > :26:10.youngsters who would otherwise be thrown away. I was asking a slightly

:26:11. > :26:15.different question, but actually let's talk about what you did in the

:26:16. > :26:20.70s, you'll support for Ugandan refugees coming to Britain and

:26:21. > :26:26.whether you see some parallels with the Syrian refugee crisis? We agreed

:26:27. > :26:29.to take the people that had opted to live in England, they were being

:26:30. > :26:32.threatened among other things with death and complete removal

:26:33. > :26:39.threatened among other things with property by India mean, the

:26:40. > :26:44.president of Uganda. With promised they would have a vote in Britain if

:26:45. > :26:47.they needed it, and I have to say that we fought for that, I promised

:26:48. > :26:52.I would resign from the Labour Government if we didn't get it. We

:26:53. > :26:56.then had the courageous support of a brave Conservative, who came out and

:26:57. > :27:01.said, we made this promise, we have got to keep it. It was amid screams

:27:02. > :27:05.of anger from his own members and activists but he stuck by the

:27:06. > :27:11.promise that we made. And the public, actually. And the public. We

:27:12. > :27:16.then set up a brief settlement body, found them housing and education.

:27:17. > :27:23.Why don't we do it this time? We did it then and it was one of the most

:27:24. > :27:27.successful immigration into it then and it was one of the most

:27:28. > :27:30.we have ever seen. They have contributed in particular to

:27:31. > :27:38.business and entrepreneurship. There were about 50 4000, 50 8000? You are

:27:39. > :27:45.right. Britain, over five years, will take 20,000 Syrian... Over five

:27:46. > :27:50.years, that was in one year. Is 20,000 over five years not enough?

:27:51. > :27:54.Clearly not enough, something like twice that each year, and I will get

:27:55. > :27:59.in trouble for it but I think Syrian refugees are likely to be a useful

:28:00. > :28:03.group in society, as long as we keep the families. That was understood by

:28:04. > :28:08.the Pope and it is crucial. With a family, you won't get young men

:28:09. > :28:12.pushing off to fight Syria, on their own anything that happened. They

:28:13. > :28:16.could be a very serious group in terms of upsetting society. Why do

:28:17. > :28:22.you say you will get in trouble for saying that? There will be people in

:28:23. > :28:26.Ukip and so on saying I am flooding the country with Syrians, which is

:28:27. > :28:30.silly. Most of them want to go home when they can. But what is happening

:28:31. > :28:34.now, I have to say this one thing, what is happening now is because of

:28:35. > :28:37.the colossal Russian flying activities, Russia is beating the

:28:38. > :28:42.hell out of places like Aleppo at the moment, including lots of

:28:43. > :28:45.civilians, and we are watching it happen and doing nothing much about

:28:46. > :28:49.it. Somebody has got to stop that happening otherwise you will see

:28:50. > :28:52.more and more refugees coming out of Syria, beginning to disturb and

:28:53. > :28:56.upset the whole of Europe as well, and it has got to be something we

:28:57. > :28:59.address, and we have to address it seriously. Back to the question I

:29:00. > :29:06.thought I was asking a few moments ago bug sorry! No, it is fine! You

:29:07. > :29:13.thought it was right when the Labour Party split and joined the SDLP,

:29:14. > :29:18.what would you do if you were a member of the Labour Party today? I

:29:19. > :29:21.think there will be a crisis for Jeremy Corbyn from the International

:29:22. > :29:28.questions of today and whether they face that or not. You mean looking

:29:29. > :29:35.at the EU, Nato? Particularly Nato, I think it is crucial, and I think

:29:36. > :29:39.he seems unwilling to accept that. But if you don't have a country luck

:29:40. > :29:43.Britain, a reasonably stable democracy, supporting some of the

:29:44. > :29:47.work that Nato does, especially given the extreme rise in aggression

:29:48. > :29:50.from Russia at the present time, you really are asking for trouble, and

:29:51. > :29:55.that is the kind of thing which I think Jeremy Corbyn, up to now, has

:29:56. > :30:00.not had to face but he will have to face it soon. If he does not, what

:30:01. > :30:03.do you feel will happen? I think some people will leave the Labour

:30:04. > :30:07.Party, some will come to us, some probably to the Conservatives, but

:30:08. > :30:11.it will be fragmented, so it is a really serious problem. He's a

:30:12. > :30:18.decent man, much more like Michael foot than he is like one of the

:30:19. > :30:21.earlier trots and so forth, but what he has coming in with him to the

:30:22. > :30:26.Labour Party, and I don't think he has asked them to come, are some

:30:27. > :30:29.extreme left-wing ideologues and they are riding piggyback on him and

:30:30. > :30:34.I think it will be a problem for him to get rid of them. Can I ask some

:30:35. > :30:37.personal questions, if I may? You talked about something that happened

:30:38. > :30:42.to you when you were 13 and when I heard it I was taken aback. You and

:30:43. > :30:45.your friend coming back from America after the Second World War on a

:30:46. > :30:48.boat, evacuated for three years, and you had to fight off a group of

:30:49. > :30:54.sailors who effectively burst into your cabin As they were attempting

:30:55. > :30:58.to a salt you? They were, they came in with the excuse that they had a

:30:59. > :31:04.curable seasickness, because we had gone through cyclones, huge storms.

:31:05. > :31:07.About six of them came in, the only people in the cabin were my best

:31:08. > :31:12.friend, a young woman called Rosemary, and me, we were 13. We

:31:13. > :31:16.fought them off, mostly scratching and jabbing their eyes and so on.

:31:17. > :31:20.Managed to get out the door, ran down the corridor, this was a

:31:21. > :31:26.Portuguese ship, by the way, and piled into a gents, and the funny

:31:27. > :31:29.thing was those sailors could not imagine any decent woman would go

:31:30. > :31:33.into a gents for safety so we locked ourselves in one of the stalls and

:31:34. > :31:37.stayed there while they funded by, then spent the rest of the voyage,

:31:38. > :31:42.another four days, believe it or not, in a lifeboat on top, covered

:31:43. > :31:47.with sea water, and just stayed under a tarpaulin and stayed there

:31:48. > :31:52.for the next three days and nights. Goodness me!

:31:53. > :31:58.Did that have a lasting effect on you, or is that 234 a long life just

:31:59. > :32:01.another thing that happened to you? More or less another thing that

:32:02. > :32:05.happened. It was the war. I got locked up for three months in a

:32:06. > :32:08.Portuguese hotel detained because we couldn't get to Britain so we got

:32:09. > :32:13.stuck in Portugal. You got very independent in the war, I was only

:32:14. > :32:17.13 but you learnt to look after yourself and to fight for yourself.

:32:18. > :32:23.Often with other children the same age. So it was a great growing up

:32:24. > :32:27.experience and it didn't leave me with desperate psychological

:32:28. > :32:33.problems. Fair enough. I still like men. OK. I want to ask you about a

:32:34. > :32:37.man you like very much, you married him, he left you sadly for another

:32:38. > :32:41.woman in 1970, you've talked about it before. Again it shows your

:32:42. > :32:47.resilience I think. What did you do to get through that period? Two

:32:48. > :32:51.things really; he was a wonderful, clever brilliant man. The first

:32:52. > :32:55.thing you have to do is to say what did I contribute to this. Why do you

:32:56. > :33:00.have toe say that? Because you mustn't just easily blame the other

:33:01. > :33:04.person. There are always reasons and usually both contribute to it. What

:33:05. > :33:08.I felt was that he was so fed up with people coming up to him saying

:33:09. > :33:14.this is Mr Shirley Williams I presume, he was so fed up as being

:33:15. > :33:17.treatmented as baggage. People are very cruel and much crueller than

:33:18. > :33:21.they are now outside the social media, they were very cruel to you

:33:22. > :33:25.directly. I think he found it, as young aspiring very clever man,

:33:26. > :33:30.quite hard to be treated as an add-on to me. So I didn't blame him

:33:31. > :33:34.for that, I think it's the price of politics, politics has a very high

:33:35. > :33:39.price, particularly for women and it's quite difficult to manage a

:33:40. > :33:43.good marriage and make it work. It's happening more and more I'm pleased

:33:44. > :33:46.to say and people are beginning to accept women at work but don't

:33:47. > :33:50.forget this is 40 years ago and people didn't accept that. You did

:33:51. > :33:56.two things, one was to look at yourself? The other was to work like

:33:57. > :34:01.hell. Work is a great healer in many ways and it compels you to work with

:34:02. > :34:05.other people, men and women alike. I think the culmination of both

:34:06. > :34:08.thinking about myself, what had I got wrong and also thinking about

:34:09. > :34:12.what could I get right which was essentially at that time moving into

:34:13. > :34:20.the professional area to become better at it, these were the two

:34:21. > :34:25.things that made it possible. Then years later, I married into the

:34:26. > :34:29.second marriage which was happy as you could ever make it. You oversaw

:34:30. > :34:34.the move from grammar schools to comprehensive systems. Correct. You

:34:35. > :34:37.faced a lot of the criticism? Yes. In terms of the political

:34:38. > :34:43.significance of your career, where does that rank? Pretty high. The

:34:44. > :34:46.other one would be the nuclear proliferation. I was the only

:34:47. > :34:53.British person on that committee. Going to what you asked me, people

:34:54. > :34:57.forgot two things, possibly only about 12% of youngsters only ever

:34:58. > :35:03.got to grammar school, there was another 88% that didn't go anywhere.

:35:04. > :35:08.Secondary schools, you couldn't take A-levels, you couldn't have a sixth

:35:09. > :35:12.form, you had no prospect of going on to further education which meant

:35:13. > :35:16.that we threw a great deal of talent away. One of the great things for me

:35:17. > :35:20.about the comprehensive school is that it did open the doors to

:35:21. > :35:25.everybody. You got very few transfers from secondary modern to

:35:26. > :35:31.grammar, 1% or 1.5% a year and I got the feeling and had it time and

:35:32. > :35:35.again now that people come up to me saying thanks I'm now the director

:35:36. > :35:39.of whatever it may be or I now work in a small business I'm so grateful

:35:40. > :35:47.that I went to a comprehensive school and was able to take A-levels

:35:48. > :35:52.and O-levels. You put a ceiling on the age of about 13 and 14 and they

:35:53. > :35:55.couldn't climb out of that. It was completely wrong for a country like

:35:56. > :36:00.Britain that needed more and more skilled people. The one weakness

:36:01. > :36:04.that is still there is that we don't treat vocational education seriously

:36:05. > :36:07.and we need far more people who're good at skills and capable of

:36:08. > :36:10.and we need far more people who're their hands to produce outcomes, new

:36:11. > :36:14.products, all the rest of it. I think that's all changed for the

:36:15. > :36:19.better so I have no feeling to apologise on that one at all. No

:36:20. > :36:24.regrets at all about anything? Oh no, no, no, no, just on

:36:25. > :36:29.comprehensive schools. I regret some other things, I suppose some of the

:36:30. > :36:32.main ones are to do with, well to be quite blunt I'm a strong European, I

:36:33. > :36:37.think the future lies with bringing people together to deal with really

:36:38. > :36:45.difficult issues and I think looking back, that we didn't ever take a

:36:46. > :36:49.sufficiently initiative lead in Europe. The result is today that

:36:50. > :36:54.Britain sits half on the outside and half on the inside and therefore

:36:55. > :36:57.reduces the influence and ways in which I think is unnecessary. How do

:36:58. > :37:02.you think which I think is unnecessary. How do

:37:03. > :37:05.you lived through the first one? The first one got through. I don't know,

:37:06. > :37:10.I think it will be close. A couple more comments from viewers who've

:37:11. > :37:12.texted or e-mailed. Emily says, I barely knew anything about Shirley

:37:13. > :37:15.Williams before watching her on your programme this morning but my

:37:16. > :37:20.goodness what a wonderful woman. Thank you very much. And this from a

:37:21. > :37:27.texter who doesn't leave their name, Shirley Williams is the role model

:37:28. > :37:32.everyone should follow, especially politicians, she's honest, doesn't

:37:33. > :37:34.divert from questions and is a wonderful lady who I admire

:37:35. > :37:39.immensely. Thank you very much to everyone. Is it true you have had 12

:37:40. > :37:45.marriage proposals in your life? Yes, about ten of them when I was

:37:46. > :37:49.about20. I thought you were saying #20rks not

:37:50. > :37:55.12! There aren't that many recent ones, I have to say, the charming

:37:56. > :37:59.older man still has to come along! Thank you so much and good luck with

:38:00. > :38:02.your retirement. Pleasure. Thank you very much, nice to see you.

:38:03. > :38:05.Liverpool football club has scrapped plans to put up the price

:38:06. > :38:08.of its most expensive ticket to ?77 and apologised to fans

:38:09. > :38:14.Thousands of supporters walked out in the 77th minute of the club's

:38:15. > :38:16.match against Sunderland last weekend in protest

:38:17. > :38:23.In an open letter explaining the decision, the club's owners

:38:24. > :38:32.Fenway Sports Group said 'message received'.

:38:33. > :38:41.John Gibbons broadcast the podcast and he's in our Merseyside studio.

:38:42. > :38:45.We are joined by a fan and also in the studio the former Chief

:38:46. > :38:49.Executive of the FA, Mark Palios, also chairman and owner of Tranmere.

:38:50. > :38:53.Is that right? Right?! I didn't know that actually. How are you? Good,

:38:54. > :38:57.thank you. Let's talk to our guests in Radio

:38:58. > :39:01.Merseyside first of all. Well, what an amazing turn around, well done!

:39:02. > :39:05.Thank you very much. Well done to all the Liverpool fans, I mean it's

:39:06. > :39:08.a remarkable turn around as you say, quite unprecedented for it to happen

:39:09. > :39:12.and for it to happen so quickly. I expected them to try to buy some

:39:13. > :39:16.time to go away and hope it would blow over and announce a bit of a

:39:17. > :39:20.comedown. What they have done so quickly and to apologise to fans as

:39:21. > :39:25.well and to recognise that they didn't really understand the feeling

:39:26. > :39:27.in Liverpool, it's huge and huge going forward for Liverpool fans to

:39:28. > :39:30.know that they have a stronger voice going forward, also for football

:39:31. > :39:34.fans around the country who can hopefully see they don't have to

:39:35. > :39:39.just sit there and accept the price increases. We all have the power to

:39:40. > :39:44.do something to change it. But it happened so quickly. That's

:39:45. > :39:47.what's taken me aback, to be honest? It did happen quickly. That showed

:39:48. > :39:53.they weren't expecting what happened on Saturday. I'm sure they'd heard

:39:54. > :39:58.there would be a walkout, they were probably expecting 1,000, 2,000

:39:59. > :40:02.people to join in, the fact it was 10,000 to 15,000, depending on the

:40:03. > :40:06.estimates yew go on, I think that really, really surprised them so I'm

:40:07. > :40:09.sure they were working very, very quickly on Saturday night to try to

:40:10. > :40:12.re-Seoul it and probably listening to people within the club who maybe

:40:13. > :40:16.warned them that something like this might happen. Mark Palios, as

:40:17. > :40:21.chairman of Tranmere Rovers, I don't know that you are as wealthy as the

:40:22. > :40:27.Fennelway Sports Group, I'm guessing not, but I might be wrong -- Fenway.

:40:28. > :40:39.This feels unprecedented, foreign owners listening to their fans? Yes.

:40:40. > :40:42.In terms of perspective, if our players walked out, it would be

:40:43. > :40:46.after 17 minutes. It's a different animal. From my days of watching the

:40:47. > :40:50.game, I think you have always felt the fans have had less of a voice in

:40:51. > :40:55.the game than they should have had and people took a ride on the fact

:40:56. > :40:59.that they were fans, as a consequence they have been taken for

:41:00. > :41:01.granted. It's great the owners of Liverpool have listened to their

:41:02. > :41:06.fans, but the thing that's changed here is I think you have got to a

:41:07. > :41:11.point, a tipping point, the figures are so large now. You mean what they

:41:12. > :41:15.are going to earn from the next deal, over ?8 billion for the

:41:16. > :41:19.Premier League? Yes, so if you can bottom the Premier League, the

:41:20. > :41:24.television money alone is about ?100 million and if you have got a gate

:41:25. > :41:28.of about 30,000 and took ?5 off your season ticket prices, you would

:41:29. > :41:32.probably lose something like ?5.7 million. I can bet you, you could

:41:33. > :41:36.probably go into all of the clubs and almost take that out of the cost

:41:37. > :41:39.base which they waste, so you're at the point now where it really stands

:41:40. > :41:44.out and there is really no argument to not look after the fans. James,

:41:45. > :41:52.how do you react? It's such an amazing triumph, I'm just so pleased

:41:53. > :41:56.for you, but it kind of, they have said sorry, they have frozen the

:41:57. > :42:01.ticket prices for a few years, it's trebles all around isn't it? Yes,

:42:02. > :42:04.it's certainly welcome news. We are incredibly pleased that the club

:42:05. > :42:09.have realised they have made a mistake. We sat in meetings. I had

:42:10. > :42:12.the pleasure or displeasure in sitting in 13 months of Liverpool

:42:13. > :42:15.telling them they shouldn't be making more from tickets, telling

:42:16. > :42:19.them they should be making less and they had a perfect opportunity for

:42:20. > :42:23.it and I suppose there would be some disappointment that they didn't

:42:24. > :42:28.listen us to in the first place. Give us some insight then, when you

:42:29. > :42:31.say that in the meetings, how did they respond? They didn't believe us

:42:32. > :42:35.is the reality. The owners came in, half way through the discussions,

:42:36. > :42:39.they didn't meet with us, but they put a revenue target in that would

:42:40. > :42:43.have meant the club would have made ?2 million more from tickets and we

:42:44. > :42:47.said in the current climate that wouldn't be acceptable to supporters

:42:48. > :42:54.and in a way it was almost who blinks first and the club thought

:42:55. > :42:58.they had a proposal that knew it would disappoint supporters.

:42:59. > :43:03.Saturday, as Jon mentioned, it was unprecedented to see the club change

:43:04. > :43:07.their mind four days later is equally unprecedented and apology is

:43:08. > :43:09.probably just that bit on top that supporters weren't expecting but do

:43:10. > :43:12.welcome. This shouldn't have happened in the first place, but the

:43:13. > :43:17.club needs to learn from this and move forward and I think it's a

:43:18. > :43:20.message to Liverpool and to clubs around the country that supporters

:43:21. > :43:24.are important to this product you like to sell on television, they are

:43:25. > :43:28.important in the ground, the atmosphere on 77 minutes, you know,

:43:29. > :43:31.disappeared out the ground when everybody walked out and it's

:43:32. > :43:34.important they realise that listening to supporters properly and

:43:35. > :43:38.understanding their concerns is beneficial to both them and us. Very

:43:39. > :43:41.briefly Mark Palios, do you think other owners will listen to their

:43:42. > :43:45.own fans having looked at what Liverpool have done? I think it's a

:43:46. > :43:50.massive wake-up call for people and it will be interesting to see what

:43:51. > :43:53.the Premier League do in response. There are no-brainers like

:43:54. > :43:57.supporting away fans and things like that which help create the

:43:58. > :44:01.atmosphere in the ground. Thank you all very much.

:44:02. > :44:02.Thank you for your company today, and for all your messages