18/02/2016

:00:00. > :00:07.Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria.

:00:08. > :00:12.Should it become harder to convict someone of murder

:00:13. > :00:14.if they were involved in the crime, perhaps by encouraging friends

:00:15. > :00:18.to kill, but didn't actually harm the victim themselves?

:00:19. > :00:21.We're talking about the controversial joint enterprise

:00:22. > :00:24.law which allows murderers to be convicted as a group.

:00:25. > :00:27.The Supreme Court is due to rule this morning

:00:28. > :00:41.We have been speaking to one woman who was locked up under the rules.

:00:42. > :00:44.It's locking too many innocent people up, hundreds of people locked

:00:45. > :00:47.up under this law, which is so unfair if they had no

:00:48. > :00:50.The person who actually committed the murder should be

:00:51. > :00:53.It's not fair bringing other people down.

:00:54. > :00:55.With models still under pressure to be unhealthily thin,

:00:56. > :00:57.should the UK fashion industry be forced to ban under 18s

:00:58. > :01:01.We have a special report and hear from women about what it's

:01:02. > :01:03.like to be constantly told to lose weight.

:01:04. > :01:06.So I went away and I just dieted really heavily.

:01:07. > :01:11.And I went back to seeing them about four months later,

:01:12. > :01:13.and they said, "You're doing good, you're losing weight.

:01:14. > :01:16.We just want you to get down to the bone..."

:01:17. > :01:18.After the tragic death of two-year-old Faye Burdett

:01:19. > :01:21.from Meninigitis, thousands sign an online petition

:01:22. > :01:24.calling for vaccines to be given to all children,

:01:25. > :01:28.including former England rugby star Matt Dawson,

:01:29. > :01:32.We'll hear from two families affected by this devastating

:01:33. > :01:47.Hello and welcome to the programme, we're on BBC Two and the BBC

:01:48. > :01:50.News Channel until 11:00 this morning.

:01:51. > :01:52.Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:01:53. > :01:55.and developing stories and as always we want to hear

:01:56. > :01:57.from you on all the subjects we're talking about.

:01:58. > :02:01.Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:02:02. > :02:03.And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:02:04. > :02:10.you are - via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:02:11. > :02:13.A ruling due in the next half hour could change the way gang and group

:02:14. > :02:15.crime is prosecuted in cases known as joint enterprise.

:02:16. > :02:19.The prosecution tool, which is used in murder cases

:02:20. > :02:21.involving groups of people, means there is no need to prove

:02:22. > :02:26.a member of the group intended to kill.

:02:27. > :02:30.To be guilty of murder, the prosecution need only show that

:02:31. > :02:32.someone foresaw the person they were with "might" kill

:02:33. > :02:35.It's controversial because many campaigners believe it too easily

:02:36. > :02:38.allows those who play a minor role to be prosecuted for murder.

:02:39. > :02:41.This morning's ruling is around a challenge brought by a man called

:02:42. > :02:43.Ameen Jogee, who was convicted of murder under joint enterprise,

:02:44. > :02:46.because he encouraged a friend to stab a former police officer.

:02:47. > :02:49.His legal team have asked the judges to consider whether possible

:02:50. > :02:51.foresight of harm is a high enough threshold to convict

:02:52. > :02:55.We'll hear from his mother shortly, but first our reporter Jim Reed has

:02:56. > :03:13.been looking at the complex issues around Joint Enterprise.

:03:14. > :03:16.A Met Police video from a couple of years back.

:03:17. > :03:25.The person with the knife, the Dell egging him on,

:03:26. > :03:30.The person with the knife, the girl egging him on,

:03:31. > :03:32.the friend who stood back and let it all happen?

:03:33. > :03:34.The answer, of course, could be all three.

:03:35. > :03:36.Joint enterprise is not a law but a legal principle.

:03:37. > :03:38.To be guilty of murder, you don't have

:03:39. > :03:41.to be the one carrying out the act of killing.

:03:42. > :03:44.The test is whether a member of a group or gang should be

:03:45. > :03:46.able to foresee another member might commit serious bodily harm.

:03:47. > :03:48.The jury has found both Gary Dobson and David

:03:49. > :03:52.Norris guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence...

:03:53. > :03:55.In the case of Stephen Lawrence, the police could never prove

:03:56. > :03:58.who physically stabbed teenager, but after a long wait,

:03:59. > :04:03.his family got some justice when Gary

:04:04. > :04:05.Dobson and Steven Norris were given life sentences,

:04:06. > :04:08.both convicted under joint enterprise.

:04:09. > :04:13.It was first used as a deterrent to stop able getting

:04:14. > :04:16.involved in duelling three centuries ago.

:04:17. > :04:18.This is something police and prosecutors have started to rely

:04:19. > :04:25.on more, especially in complex gang killings.

:04:26. > :04:27.Research out in 2014, found over the past eight years,

:04:28. > :04:30.at least 1800 people were prosecuted under joint enterprise.

:04:31. > :04:38.More than 17% of all murder cases in the UK.

:04:39. > :04:40.Last night, Victoria Station was brought to a standstill

:04:41. > :04:42.after a 15-year-old boy was stabbed to

:04:43. > :04:45.The victim was chased into the station and stabbed

:04:46. > :04:49.12 teenagers have appeared in court in London charged with the murder

:04:50. > :04:52.Take the death of 15-year-old Sofyen Belamouadden

:04:53. > :04:57.The biggest ever prosecution of a gang over a murder.

:04:58. > :05:01.Eight were convicted in total, including a 16-year-old.

:05:02. > :05:03.He was carrying a weapon, but was outside

:05:04. > :05:09.the station at the time the victim was stabbed.

:05:10. > :05:12.Critics say the law is just too blunt and can lead to the wrong

:05:13. > :05:20.It's backers say it is often the only way of getting any form

:05:21. > :05:23.Its backers say it is often the only way of getting any form of justice

:05:24. > :05:29.As I mentioned the judgement centres around a challenge by Ameen Jogee.

:05:30. > :05:31.And earlier, I spoke to his mother Rachel Whitehead -

:05:32. > :05:39.she told me how she was feeling ahead of the ruling.

:05:40. > :05:44.Nervous, anxious, excited, all rolled into one. I couldn't sleep

:05:45. > :05:49.last night because it is a very big day for us all. This ruling will

:05:50. > :05:55.have a massive effect on everyone if successful. If not, the fight

:05:56. > :05:58.continues. It centres on where you draw the line on whether somebody is

:05:59. > :06:03.guilty of murder when they are at the scene of a crime. Your son was

:06:04. > :06:09.at the front door of a house, his friend was inside. He stabbed the

:06:10. > :06:11.former police officer and killed him and subsequently your son was found

:06:12. > :06:17.guilty of murder by joint enterprise. What do you think about

:06:18. > :06:22.where the line should be? I think the second party, if not proving he

:06:23. > :06:26.was encouraging or did not know what was going to go on, you cannot

:06:27. > :06:33.foresee somebody else's actions, what they are capable of doing or

:06:34. > :06:36.knowing what they're going to do. My son was outside the property at the

:06:37. > :06:41.time and the altercation took place inside the house and the weapon was

:06:42. > :06:44.taken inside the house. So he had no idea what was going on inside the

:06:45. > :06:50.property last night. He had gone off and come back, told his co-accused,

:06:51. > :06:56.let's go. Oblivious to what was going on in the house. The person

:06:57. > :07:01.inside, the witness said that my son was egging him on. It wasn't proven

:07:02. > :07:06.in court, because there was no word said that what Ameen had said by the

:07:07. > :07:12.witness. In this case, focusing on your son, it could attention they

:07:13. > :07:21.have a big impact on the law? A very big impact, yes. Are you aware of

:07:22. > :07:27.the impact? Yes, yes. Is that as important to you as to what happens

:07:28. > :07:31.to your son? We are all in this together, whoever is fighting this

:07:32. > :07:37.draw, we are all in it together, standing side-by-side. There are

:07:38. > :07:41.parents whose children have been killed and their killers have been

:07:42. > :07:45.convicted under joint enterprise in a prosecution that might not have

:07:46. > :07:50.been possible. So they are equally concerned about the potential

:07:51. > :07:59.ramifications of this outcome. How do you see that other elements of

:08:00. > :08:03.this? I can understand, having lost someone close to them, and I can

:08:04. > :08:08.understand how they feel with this law. We have also lost somebody.

:08:09. > :08:13.Although we get to go and see them, we have lost somebody to the system

:08:14. > :08:17.for life. It is fair they get justice for their children, every

:08:18. > :08:24.parent would want that. As far as it goes with the law, it is locking too

:08:25. > :08:29.many innocent people up, there are hundreds of people locked up under

:08:30. > :08:32.this law, which is so unfair if they had no part to play. The person who

:08:33. > :08:37.committed the murder should be charged with murder. It is not fair

:08:38. > :08:43.bringing other people down if they haven't done anything. For example,

:08:44. > :08:48.Ameen. He was outside the property, oblivious to what was going on, but

:08:49. > :08:55.he is convicted of murder, serving a life sentence. What do you do after

:08:56. > :09:00.the ruling if it goes against Ameen, what happens next? We continue to

:09:01. > :09:08.fight. We will continue to fight. It will not end here. What are the

:09:09. > :09:09.potential options after today? More campaigning, more research. Just

:09:10. > :09:19.keep on going. That was Rachel Whitehead whose son

:09:20. > :09:24.was given a life sentence after he encouraged a friend to stab up

:09:25. > :09:30.former police officer in 2011. He is challenging the rules on joint

:09:31. > :09:34.enterprise. Listening to that was a man who son was murdered in

:09:35. > :09:38.Sunderland in 2007. Three men were convicted of stabbing him to death

:09:39. > :09:46.under joint enterprise. What happened to your son, Kevin? It was

:09:47. > :09:50.in May 2007. Kevin and his partner had been out for a drink on the

:09:51. > :09:53.Friday night. They had got back home, in the bedroom ready to go to

:09:54. > :10:00.bed and there was a commotion outside. Kevin looked out of the

:10:01. > :10:05.window and saw the three boys. They were gesturing to him to come out,

:10:06. > :10:11.shouting obscenities at him. He did go out to remonstrate with them,

:10:12. > :10:16.tell them to shut up and move on. But a fight ensued and he was

:10:17. > :10:23.stabbed four times. The fourth time was through his heart and that was

:10:24. > :10:28.fatal. His killers were convicted of joint enterprise, how important was

:10:29. > :10:31.joint enterprise to this case? It is very important because neither of

:10:32. > :10:38.them admitted to it, they all pleaded not guilty. So this law can

:10:39. > :10:44.convict them all. I know there was only one that actually stabbed

:10:45. > :10:48.Kevin, but if the evidence shows the other two had a major part in it,

:10:49. > :10:54.rightly so they should all get locked up at the same time. How do

:10:55. > :10:59.you feel about the fact the Supreme Court is looking now at the issue of

:11:00. > :11:05.joint enterprise? I am very disappointed. To meet, joint

:11:06. > :11:08.enterprise is a good tool to have, it has been around for over 300

:11:09. > :11:13.years and it has worked for all of that time. Why tinker with something

:11:14. > :11:18.that isn't broke. They should be looking at ways of stopping the

:11:19. > :11:22.murders, looking at solutions and deterrence, rather than tinkering

:11:23. > :11:28.with the law. Campaigners say they are concerned it is too blunt tool

:11:29. > :11:33.for murder convictions and it has led to people being convicted of

:11:34. > :11:39.murder where they went directly involved. How do you see it? I can

:11:40. > :11:45.only talk about our Kevin's case and the evidence that was put in front

:11:46. > :11:49.of the judge and the jury. It got those three lads convicted. Fair

:11:50. > :11:54.enough, it was only one but stabbed Kevin, but the other two played a

:11:55. > :11:57.part. Without joint enterprise, would a conviction have been

:11:58. > :12:06.possible in this case? I wouldn't have thought so. Thank you very

:12:07. > :12:10.much, John Johnson. We will be live at the court for the judgment at

:12:11. > :12:13.9:45am and we will bring it to you then.

:12:14. > :12:16.Still to come: After the tragic death of two-year-old

:12:17. > :12:18.Faye Burdett from meningitis, thousands sign an online petition

:12:19. > :12:23.calling for vaccines to be given to all children.

:12:24. > :12:25.With models still coming under pressure to lose weight,

:12:26. > :12:27.should the fashion industry be forced to protect the youngest

:12:28. > :12:38.by banning under-18s from the catwalk?

:12:39. > :12:51.Downing Street has said EU leaders are leaning towards doing a deal in

:12:52. > :12:53.the next two days on the UK's relationship with the EU.

:12:54. > :12:56.David Cameron heads to Brussels for a final push on nailing down

:12:57. > :12:59.the details of a proposed deal on Britain's future with the EU.

:13:00. > :13:03.The Prime Minister says he is optimistic despite glitches over

:13:04. > :13:27.migrants and other EU countries. Bobbies are taken off the beat for

:13:28. > :13:32.around half their time on duty. More than 1000 patients have suffered

:13:33. > :13:36.serious medical errors in hospitals in England over the last four years,

:13:37. > :13:39.including the wrong claims being operated on and medical equipment

:13:40. > :13:44.being left inside the body. More than 400 thousand people have

:13:45. > :13:49.signed an online petition calling for all children under the age of 11

:13:50. > :13:54.to be vaccinated against meningitis B after the death of the little girl

:13:55. > :13:56.last weekend. The former England rugby union player, Matt Dawson has

:13:57. > :14:01.urged people to sign the petition. And an Australian town has been

:14:02. > :14:03.consumed by 'hairy panic' - it's the name given

:14:04. > :14:05.to a fast-growing tumbleweed that's And there it is. It looks pretty

:14:06. > :14:15.terrible. Let's catch up with all the sport

:14:16. > :14:41.now and join Jess for the latest Nike have dropped their boxer, money

:14:42. > :14:46.patio but his anti-gay comments. But they have dropped him before in 2012

:14:47. > :14:49.for similar remarks he made, but they re-signed him. He has

:14:50. > :14:55.apologised and says he respects the decision. Elsewhere, Wayne Rooney is

:14:56. > :14:58.out for six weeks with a knee injury. He has been in brilliant

:14:59. > :15:05.form with Manchester United of late. It'll be a big blow to them. They

:15:06. > :15:09.have only one other recognised first-team striker on the box at the

:15:10. > :15:18.moment. We will be looking at how it affects England. And finally, Ronnie

:15:19. > :15:22.O'Sullivan is bored. He has suggested organisers at the Welsh

:15:23. > :15:27.open where he is at the moment, build an adult creche to entertain

:15:28. > :15:31.him in Cardiff. He has been on Twitter talking about it. We will

:15:32. > :15:32.hear about him talking about the not so glamorous life of the snooker

:15:33. > :15:52.player at ten o'clock. Should underwritings be banned from

:15:53. > :15:57.the catwalk? -- under 18s. Some countries have bought in health

:15:58. > :15:59.requirements. At the start of London Fashion Week, our reporter has been

:16:00. > :16:21.looking at the latest calls to change the modelling industry.

:16:22. > :16:25.Or too thin, too young and not real women?

:16:26. > :16:28.I've seen girls who clearly have drug problems and I saw girls eating

:16:29. > :16:30.almost nothing in order to stay a certain weight.

:16:31. > :16:33.This 19-year-old Swedish model went viral last year when she put a video

:16:34. > :16:36.online saying she couldn't get work because she was too big.

:16:37. > :16:44.According to the modelling industry, you cannot look like this.

:16:45. > :16:48.The modelling industry has long been scrutinised and change is happening.

:16:49. > :16:51.In December, France passed a law banning the use of

:16:52. > :16:58.It joined Italy, Spain and Israel in legislating

:16:59. > :17:01.All the girls on my catwalk have different bodies.

:17:02. > :17:05.The breasts, the hips and the tight waists.

:17:06. > :17:23.Rosie Nelson has been modelling for four years.

:17:24. > :17:25.Originally from Australia, she lives in London.

:17:26. > :17:30.A size eight, she says she was told to get enough.

:17:31. > :18:01.I went into an agency in London about a year ago and they said

:18:02. > :18:07.you have done well, we just need you to get skinnier.

:18:08. > :18:09.I went away and I dieted really heavily.

:18:10. > :18:11.I cut out all sugar, exercised crazily

:18:12. > :18:19.At the end of the month of dieting, my ribs were sticking out,

:18:20. > :18:21.my bones were sticking out, I looked really ill.

:18:22. > :18:24.I went back to see them and they said, you look good,

:18:25. > :18:26.you are losing weight, but we want you

:18:27. > :18:29.When they said that, I thought, I can't lose

:18:30. > :18:36.I started a petition on changed at all

:18:37. > :18:40.Hundreds and hundreds of girls messaged me to say they'd had

:18:41. > :18:43.They'd become anorexic or bulimic and there

:18:44. > :18:45.in courage to do lose weight just for the modelling agency.

:18:46. > :18:49.We are told an inquiry will recommend under 18s be banned from

:18:50. > :18:52.the catwalk. Legislation would make sure you were not seeing 16 to

:18:53. > :18:54.18-year-olds with a BMI of 15.16 told to lose weight. On the catwalk

:18:55. > :19:00.especially, under 18 is too young because it does encourage a bullish

:19:01. > :19:04.look, like a boy's body is quite straight, and women have hips, most

:19:05. > :19:10.women have hips, it is how we naturally are. Having a girl that is

:19:11. > :19:18.underdeveloped, when they are modelling womenswear, they are not

:19:19. > :19:23.representing women. It was all true skinny models that made this British

:19:24. > :19:29.designer make their own rules for photo shoots. Our experience of

:19:30. > :19:35.professional models is that they just don't eat. They tell us they

:19:36. > :19:41.are under pressure to lose weight in order to secure more work. They tell

:19:42. > :19:44.us the extremes they go to. As an example, eating tissues to stop

:19:45. > :19:49.their stomachs rumbling, this sort of stuff. We know they are hungry.

:19:50. > :19:54.We had one model who had come in for a test shoot, she was clearly

:19:55. > :19:58.hungry, she wouldn't eat. She became delirious, talking Jibril Ridge, she

:19:59. > :20:02.was clearly weak. She was having to hold onto something, rather than

:20:03. > :20:07.just stand of her own free will, and we had to call it a day and sent her

:20:08. > :20:13.home. They have added a clause to contracts for the models that says

:20:14. > :20:17.they have to eat one on the shoot. It is a bit nannying to tell women

:20:18. > :20:21.what to do? It is, to a degree, but the demand for how the model looks

:20:22. > :20:24.comes from the designers, so what we're saying is, we're not going to

:20:25. > :20:30.be part of that demand. Have you been criticised? It is interesting,

:20:31. > :20:35.the views are polarised, we either get a lot of encouragement or the

:20:36. > :20:38.diametric opposite. What if the women don't want to eat with the?

:20:39. > :20:44.Then they won't sign the contract and they won't come to work with us.

:20:45. > :20:47.Should under 18s be banned from the catwalk? It is positive this is

:20:48. > :20:52.being discussed at a high level, most models start between 13 and 16,

:20:53. > :20:57.the industry is likely to argue they are being discriminated against

:20:58. > :21:02.because under 18s can work in other industries. I think it would be

:21:03. > :21:05.silly because you would be missing a lot of talent unless the same thing

:21:06. > :21:09.was applied to ballerinas, athletes who have to perform at a certain

:21:10. > :21:14.level and be a certain level of fitness, eat certain amount under

:21:15. > :21:19.18. Should they be banned from competing? Where should we stop? Do

:21:20. > :21:24.you see there are girls who make themselves ill and feel undue

:21:25. > :21:28.pressure to be very small? Yes, I was a model very momentarily when I

:21:29. > :21:32.was a student and I saw girls eating almost nothing in order to stay a

:21:33. > :21:36.certain weight. I've seen girls who clearly have drug problems, clearly

:21:37. > :21:43.have had eating disorders, very few and far between. But like any

:21:44. > :21:47.industry anywhere one in 100 people can have a problem. It is the

:21:48. > :21:53.responsibility of the agency or that girl's peer or parents to keep an

:21:54. > :21:56.eye on them. No legislation can take the place of apparent. Does your

:21:57. > :22:01.decision mean you cannot get high end brands? Yes, there are

:22:02. > :22:10.definitely designers that would never book me because of my size.

:22:11. > :22:13.Very thin models concern many in and outside of the industry, because of

:22:14. > :22:18.the health implications for the women and the message they send to

:22:19. > :22:22.those that admire them. A minimum body mass index had been suggested,

:22:23. > :22:28.but Rosie and others don't think that would work. You can stick

:22:29. > :22:32.numbers on anyone but it doesn't represent how tall they are, what

:22:33. > :22:39.their body looks like, it is just a few numbers. I have a very low BMI

:22:40. > :22:44.but I am tall and too big for some jobs, so it doesn't make sense to

:22:45. > :22:53.use a BMI scale because it doesn't represent it. The funny part with

:22:54. > :22:59.this is that my body mass index is 17.5, the body mass index you should

:23:00. > :23:05.have is 19. And they still tell me that I'm too big.

:23:06. > :23:10.What do you think needs to change to make the models on the catwalk and

:23:11. > :23:15.in magazines better represent us, normal women? I think the big thing

:23:16. > :23:24.that needs to change is who the shows are for. In the old days,

:23:25. > :23:28.pre-digital, fashion shows were for the industry. Since the digital age,

:23:29. > :23:32.first of all it was blogs, then Instagram, now you can see a show, I

:23:33. > :23:39.can watch any show I want without having to go near catwalk. So brands

:23:40. > :23:43.have realised this, and Burberry was one of the first. I have a very

:23:44. > :23:48.strong suspicion, when these shows start becoming more commonplace, you

:23:49. > :23:52.and I will not want to see a 17-year-old size six model wearing

:23:53. > :24:00.those clothes. We will want to see a woman like us. I think we are coming

:24:01. > :24:03.to the end of an era. Barbie, the doll, has been bought up to date for

:24:04. > :24:08.the 21st century because millennial 's do not identify with her. If you

:24:09. > :24:12.look at the supermodels of now, the most popular models in the world are

:24:13. > :24:18.the ones with the biggest Instagram accounts, such as Kendall Jenner,

:24:19. > :24:23.and they are, in inverted commas, normal. The inquiry followed the

:24:24. > :24:27.collapse of a voluntary code of conduct introduced a decade ago to

:24:28. > :24:31.keep young teens of the catwalk. It didn't work. Models as young as 14

:24:32. > :24:38.have walked at London Fashion Week. Next time, they may not be allowed.

:24:39. > :24:41.If you want to share that film you can find it

:24:42. > :24:46.on our programme page bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:24:47. > :24:51.In the next hour we will have an interview with a woman who started

:24:52. > :24:52.modelling at the age of 15. Let us know what you think, all the usual

:24:53. > :24:56.ways of getting in touch. Should all children automatically be

:24:57. > :24:59.given the meningitis B vaccine? The former England rugby player

:25:00. > :25:01.Matt Dawson has published what he's called "upsetting" images

:25:02. > :25:03.of his toddler son, Sami, Matt Dawson says Sami is now well,

:25:04. > :25:11.but he is urging people to sign a petition calling for all children

:25:12. > :25:16.to be given the jab. At the moment babies get

:25:17. > :25:18.the vaccine, but parents who want to have older

:25:19. > :25:20.children vaccinated The petition was launched

:25:21. > :25:29.after the death on Valentine's Day of a two-year-old girl from Kent,

:25:30. > :25:31.Faye Burdett, from meningitis. We'll show you the picture her

:25:32. > :25:34.parents released yesterday now. It is distressing, so if you have

:25:35. > :25:37.young children in the room But her parents wanted to release it

:25:38. > :25:43.to raise awareness of meningitis. Her family say they are enduring

:25:44. > :25:48."a pain you cannot describe". Overnight, an online petition

:25:49. > :25:50.calling for all children to be giving the vaccination has passed

:25:51. > :25:58.400,000 signatories. Georgie Hall was just 23 months

:25:59. > :26:05.old when she contracted meningitis Georgie's father Matt Hall joins

:26:06. > :26:09.us from Norwich. Danny Sweatman lost two

:26:10. > :26:11.brothers to meningitis. His brother Joe died

:26:12. > :26:16.from the disease at just seven weeks old, and his 19-year-old brother

:26:17. > :26:19.Ryan died from meningitis B while studying at Sheffield

:26:20. > :26:20.Hallam University. Since then the family

:26:21. > :26:35.has raised over ?80,000 And we are joined by Claire Donovan,

:26:36. > :26:39.the helpline manager at Meningitis Now. Matt, so sorry about the loss

:26:40. > :26:44.of your daughter Georgia. Tell us what happened. Thank you. It is

:26:45. > :26:50.literally coming up to the one-year anniversary now, on Sunday we will

:26:51. > :26:54.be thinking about Georgie again. It was just about this time last year

:26:55. > :27:00.that he went into hospital, on the 18th of February, and she was a fit,

:27:01. > :27:03.healthy, young, bubbly little girl, our little princess, and within

:27:04. > :27:10.three days she lost her battle against meningitis. What were the

:27:11. > :27:14.first signs? I was working away, my wife was at home with her and she

:27:15. > :27:18.woke up crying, she had not long got to bed, two hours later woke up

:27:19. > :27:22.crying, had a temperature, her breathing more than anything was the

:27:23. > :27:26.thing that stood out for my wife, the heavy breathing, different to

:27:27. > :27:29.the way she was normally breathing, just very irregular. She then

:27:30. > :27:33.vomited and the temperature started to rise a little bit more but there

:27:34. > :27:38.was no rash, and that is the key sign that we make clear to people,

:27:39. > :27:42.there was no rash at that stage and it didn't come out until she got to

:27:43. > :27:46.hospital. How long was that after the initial symptoms? About five to

:27:47. > :27:50.six hours after she had suddenly woken up screaming, and then within

:27:51. > :27:54.two to three hours my wife got her to hospital, then it was another

:27:55. > :27:59.three to four hours later that the rash started to develop. When was

:28:00. > :28:03.meningitis first mentioned? I think at that stage, when the rash started

:28:04. > :28:06.to develop, there were a few blotches on the top part of her

:28:07. > :28:10.body, they started to develop and become a little bit bitter, -- a

:28:11. > :28:14.little bit bigger, then more started to develop on the top of her body,

:28:15. > :28:16.and at that point they got meningitis was the reason and

:28:17. > :28:18.started to treat the meningitis at that stage. It obviously took hold

:28:19. > :28:55.very Cal is all about your brother and

:28:56. > :29:04.what happened with my it started in 1991 women lost our brother Joe, he

:29:05. > :29:10.was only seven weeks old, a similar story to what Matt was laying bare

:29:11. > :29:20.with my brother and urging him to hospital, but devastatingly it just

:29:21. > :29:26.took hold of him and we lost him. Since then we have been campaigning

:29:27. > :29:31.for Bebo do understand the signs and symptoms. Unbelievably, 21 years

:29:32. > :29:39.later, my brother Ryan, who was only 19 years old, studying sports

:29:40. > :29:41.coaching at Sheffield Hallam University, had simple flu-like

:29:42. > :29:48.symptoms, took himself to bed and didn't wake up in the morning, and

:29:49. > :29:55.men into Google that the female taken over his body, he passed away

:29:56. > :30:01.the night. For it to happen to us as a family wants is devastating, but

:30:02. > :30:14.to happen again in 21 years after Joe passed away, there are just no

:30:15. > :30:18.words. Your family is so conscious of the potential impact of

:30:19. > :30:24.meningitis, what it is, the symptoms, the fact that it happened

:30:25. > :30:29.to your second brother after the first one that shows how quickly it

:30:30. > :30:33.can take old, because in spite of being aware, obviously it did happen

:30:34. > :30:44.again? Absolutely, I think although we have been promoting the signs and

:30:45. > :30:49.symptoms, through the Meningitis Research Foundation and Meningitis

:30:50. > :30:53.Now, there is some unbelievable material out there, but for both Joe

:30:54. > :31:03.and Ryan it came over to quickly, it was just all far too late and far

:31:04. > :31:06.too quick, and for us the importance of the vaccines, meningitis C is

:31:07. > :31:14.already available, and now this huge push in the last 18 months I suppose

:31:15. > :31:18.for the meningitis B is, for us, just crucial because, yes, we can

:31:19. > :31:23.look out for the signs, but if they have got any chance of stopping

:31:24. > :31:25.there is absolutely horrendous disease, then that is what we are

:31:26. > :31:38.keen to campaign for. There is this campaign, and so many

:31:39. > :31:44.people signing the petition, what is the implication, newborn babies get

:31:45. > :31:48.it, but that is it at the moment? I would like to send our heartfelt

:31:49. > :31:52.sympathies to all families who have been bereaved through this horrible

:31:53. > :31:57.disease. With regards to the new vaccine is the Meningitis B vaccine

:31:58. > :32:01.that people have been talking about. It is one of the strains of

:32:02. > :32:07.miniature cockle meningitis which causes most cases in the UK. It has

:32:08. > :32:13.taken a very long time of research and development to get a vaccine

:32:14. > :32:16.available. The vaccine was introduced to the NHS childhood

:32:17. > :32:21.immunisation programme on the 1st of September last year. It is offered

:32:22. > :32:25.to young babies are two, four years of age and 12 years of age. But it

:32:26. > :32:32.is not being offered to older babies. Obviously, vaccination is

:32:33. > :32:37.one thing and being aware of symptoms if somebody does get

:32:38. > :32:43.meningitis. Another thing, once meningitis takes hold, how difficult

:32:44. > :32:47.is it to actually cure it? Even with vaccinations, there is no vaccines

:32:48. > :32:53.to cover all types of meningitis and not every vaccine is 100% effective.

:32:54. > :32:58.It is important people understand what to look for with meningitis.

:32:59. > :33:00.Part of the problem with the early stages, and some of it you have

:33:01. > :33:09.already heard from the families who have been speaking, the early stages

:33:10. > :33:13.can mimic everyday infections. So vomiting, fever, muscular pains,

:33:14. > :33:17.headaches. Somebody that is developing bacterial meningitis will

:33:18. > :33:23.become ill very quickly and other symptoms will appear. Other symptoms

:33:24. > :33:28.to look out for will be a severe headaches, severe muscular pains,

:33:29. > :33:32.stiff neck, dislike of right lights. In small children they may become

:33:33. > :33:39.very drowsy, lethargic, vomiting, refusing feeds. Very small babies

:33:40. > :33:44.might have a soft spot on the top of their head might be bulging. A

:33:45. > :33:48.temperature. Often with the temperature, the hands and feet will

:33:49. > :33:54.feel cold. These are some of the things to look out for. Somebody

:33:55. > :33:58.mentioned the rush. The rush with meningitis is distinctive, it starts

:33:59. > :34:04.like little pinpricks under the skin and can develop quickly to look like

:34:05. > :34:08.purple bruising. One of the things a member has already said is the rash

:34:09. > :34:15.doesn't appear for everybody. In many cases, when it does appear, it

:34:16. > :34:19.it appears late. So we urge everybody not just to think of a

:34:20. > :34:26.rash with regards to meningitis. If you are concerned of the symptoms

:34:27. > :34:32.from somebody, trust your instincts and get them seen as soon as

:34:33. > :34:37.possible. Matt, would you like to see your kids routinely vaccinated?

:34:38. > :34:40.Without a doubt, it shouldn't come into question. Too many lives have

:34:41. > :34:46.been taken. This vaccine would save so many lives and if Georgie had

:34:47. > :34:50.been lucky enough to get it, she might have been here today. I know

:34:51. > :34:57.you have paid privately to have your child vaccinated? Absolutely,

:34:58. > :35:04.Maxwell, my son is coming up to two years old and as soon as the vaccine

:35:05. > :35:06.became available privately, he missed the immunisation programme,

:35:07. > :35:11.but we took him to a clinic and made sure he had a vaccine. New have

:35:12. > :35:18.mentioned the cost of around ?300. For me, it is such a huge stumbling

:35:19. > :35:29.blocks for many families across the UK, seeing the recent news. People

:35:30. > :35:34.will want to vaccinate their children more, but at that cost it.

:35:35. > :35:38.A lot of people doing it. I have friends and colleagues now who have

:35:39. > :35:43.tried to go privately. There is a waiting list as well. Some of the

:35:44. > :35:48.places are struggling to get hold of the vaccine. Rolling it out across

:35:49. > :35:51.the UK is something we are desperate to push and this petition at the

:35:52. > :35:59.moment is something I am desperately keen to get out to everyone who is

:36:00. > :36:04.watching and listening today. Matt, you are nodding as you are listening

:36:05. > :36:09.to Danny? A lot of people have been to get the vaccine, but we have had

:36:10. > :36:14.some feed that they are struggling to find places who have it in stock.

:36:15. > :36:18.There is a shortage of the vaccine and they cannot pay the large

:36:19. > :36:22.amounts of money to get them vaccinated. It is something that

:36:23. > :36:26.needs to be addressed quickly. Clare, people are talking about this

:36:27. > :36:33.as a result of the sad cases there have been. Do you have much hope the

:36:34. > :36:37.situation with vaccination might change? Obviously it is going to be

:36:38. > :36:41.expensive for the NHS for this vaccine to be made routinely

:36:42. > :36:45.available? As an organisation we would like to see an extension of

:36:46. > :36:49.the vaccine programme to other age groups that are at risk. Somebody

:36:50. > :36:54.has mentioned there is a problem at the moment with private supplies.

:36:55. > :36:59.That is due to global demand as well. It is a difficult situation at

:37:00. > :37:05.the moment. In terms of treatment, is that improving? The main thing

:37:06. > :37:09.with meningitis is getting it recognised early and getting

:37:10. > :37:14.antibiotics into the child or the adult that has the meningitis, as

:37:15. > :37:19.soon as possible. That can be really life-saving. There are cases that

:37:20. > :37:22.when it is diagnosed early, treatment is started right away and

:37:23. > :37:27.it doesn't change the outcome are some people, it can just overwhelm

:37:28. > :37:34.the body so quickly. Thank you all very much for joining us. Let me

:37:35. > :37:38.bring you some of your comments. The possibility of under 18 's been

:37:39. > :37:43.banned from the catwalk. Lots of you getting in touch. One e-mail has

:37:44. > :37:47.said all designers who request skinny models should be named and

:37:48. > :37:50.shamed. Another one says a fascinating

:37:51. > :37:56.feature on size of models. Derek has treated -- tweeted, there

:37:57. > :38:04.should be a weight limit, nobody under eight stone.

:38:05. > :38:08.Graham has treated, accusing model agencies encouraging people to harm

:38:09. > :38:18.themselves of joint enterprise. We can go live to the Supreme Court

:38:19. > :38:27.on the judgments of joint enterprise. Let's listen in to the

:38:28. > :38:31.judgment. This meant that the mental element necessary for a secondary

:38:32. > :38:34.party to be guilty of murder was less than the intent required for

:38:35. > :38:41.the principle to be guilty of murder. To be guilty of murder, the

:38:42. > :38:46.principal had to be proved to have intended to cause death or grievous

:38:47. > :38:51.bodily harm. But, the test for the secondary party was lower. That

:38:52. > :38:57.principle, introduced by the Privy Council, was followed by the house

:38:58. > :39:02.of lords and has been applied in many subsequent cases. In these

:39:03. > :39:05.appeals, the trial judges cannot be criticised for following that

:39:06. > :39:12.principle in their directions to the jury, but the court has been asked

:39:13. > :39:15.to rias -- re-examine the principle. In a unanimous judgment, the court

:39:16. > :39:22.concludes the development was wrong as a matter of law. The cases relied

:39:23. > :39:29.on it do not properly supported. There were others that were against

:39:30. > :39:35.it, but those cases were not fully discussed. It went that normal rule

:39:36. > :39:40.for secondary parties. As to homicide, it effectively redrew the

:39:41. > :39:44.line between murder and manslaughter and in doing so, it has created

:39:45. > :39:51.anomalies and complex at ease which have led to a large number of

:39:52. > :39:56.appeals to the Court of Appeal. The error was to treat the secondary

:39:57. > :40:00.party's foresight that a person who might commit crime be automatically

:40:01. > :40:06.enough for the secondary party to be guilty of assisting or encouraging

:40:07. > :40:09.the principle to commit the crime. The correct position is, the

:40:10. > :40:16.secondary party's foresight on what the principle might do is evidence,

:40:17. > :40:21.from which the jury might infer that the secondary party had intended to

:40:22. > :40:26.assist or encourage the principle to do that. But it is for the jury to

:40:27. > :40:31.decide on the whole of the evidence, whether the secondary party had the

:40:32. > :40:36.necessary intent. This court is always very cautious before

:40:37. > :40:41.departing from a previous decision of the house of lords or the Supreme

:40:42. > :40:45.Court. But in this case, the court is satisfied after an much fuller

:40:46. > :40:51.review of the law than in the earlier cases, that the courts took

:40:52. > :40:56.a wrong turn in 1984. And it is the responsibility of this Court to put

:40:57. > :41:01.the law right. The correction is in line with what Parliament has

:41:02. > :41:07.recently abided in a closely related field, when it created new offences

:41:08. > :41:15.of intentionally encouraging or assisting the commission of a crime

:41:16. > :41:20.in the serious crime act 2007. And it has provided a person is not to

:41:21. > :41:26.be taken to have had such intention, merely because of foreseeability.

:41:27. > :41:30.The effect of the ruling in these two cases is to bring the mental

:41:31. > :41:36.element required of the secondary party back into line with that which

:41:37. > :41:39.is required of the principle. And to bring the law back to the principles

:41:40. > :41:46.which had been established before the law took a wrong turn in 1984.

:41:47. > :41:51.That is the Supreme Court judgment and that is the Supreme Court saying

:41:52. > :41:57.the law on joint enterprise has been wrongly interpreted why criminal

:41:58. > :42:02.trial judges over the past 30 years. Saying the courts took a wrong turn

:42:03. > :42:10.in 1984 and it is the responsibility of this court to put the law right.

:42:11. > :42:17.Let's go live now to our legal eagle Clive Coleman who is live outside

:42:18. > :42:28.Dramatic rulings? It is complicated, let me explain it. This relates to

:42:29. > :42:31.the role of secondary parties involved in murder. A secondary

:42:32. > :42:36.party is the person who doesn't wield the knife, doesn't inflict the

:42:37. > :42:42.fatal blow, but is somehow involved or connected with those who do. The

:42:43. > :42:49.test for prosecuting those people from murder, and if you are

:42:50. > :42:53.prosecuted for murder and convicted, you get a life sentence. The test

:42:54. > :42:58.has been a test of foresight, what you could foresee. Could you foresee

:42:59. > :43:06.another person you are connected with with either, or might either,

:43:07. > :43:11.go on to kill or to inflict serious bodily harm? It wasn't the test of

:43:12. > :43:15.intention, what you intended, if you intended to assist or encourage, it

:43:16. > :43:18.was a test of what you could foresee. Even if you could see a

:43:19. > :43:25.slight possibility that person might go on to pull a knife to stab and to

:43:26. > :43:30.kill. What the Supreme Court has done today is very dramatic, wiped

:43:31. > :43:34.away the test. It has said the test was wrong and judges have been

:43:35. > :43:40.direct and jewellery is incorrectly since the mid-19 80s on that test.

:43:41. > :43:45.What they have said is foresight alone is not alone. It is not alone

:43:46. > :43:52.for you to foresee another person connected with you might either kill

:43:53. > :43:55.or might commit serious harm. Foresight can be evidence of what

:43:56. > :44:03.you intended, whether you intended to actively assist or encourage. If

:44:04. > :44:07.you did intend to actively encourage or cyst, you will be guilty of

:44:08. > :44:12.murder. The judges have been setting the bar too low and have been

:44:13. > :44:16.misdirecting juries for 30 years. What does that mean? It means the

:44:17. > :44:20.two cases appealed here today, the convictions have been set aside

:44:21. > :44:28.because of incorrect directions to the jury. Does it mean those men

:44:29. > :44:34.will walk free? No, it doesn't. In the key UK case they were looking

:44:35. > :44:38.at, a case of a man called Ameen Jogee, who was outside a flat when a

:44:39. > :44:42.co-defendant was inside took out a knife and stabbed a former police

:44:43. > :44:48.officer called Paul Fife, whilst Ameen Jogee was outside the flat and

:44:49. > :44:53.was egging him on. The court said there is enough evidence that he

:44:54. > :44:57.would be guilty of manslaughter and it has asked for submissions as to

:44:58. > :45:00.whether there should be a retrial for murder or whether the

:45:01. > :45:05.prosecution should accept a plea of guilty for manslaughter. That is

:45:06. > :45:10.what it means in that case, Ameen Jogee might not walk free, but there

:45:11. > :45:13.might be a retrial. What about the cases where people have been

:45:14. > :45:19.convicted after the judge has given this now incorrect direction? It

:45:20. > :45:22.doesn't automatically mean they will have their cases appealed, they can

:45:23. > :45:26.go to the Court of Appeal but they will have to argue they have

:45:27. > :45:33.suffered substantial hardship as a result of the misdirection. I think

:45:34. > :45:39.we can expect a line of cases to go to the Court of Appeal saying, I

:45:40. > :45:42.have been banged up from murder based on the wrong direction, had

:45:43. > :45:47.the correct direction being given the jury would not have can be did

:45:48. > :45:52.me and I should be allowed to appeal my conviction. It is a truly,

:45:53. > :46:01.dramatic day here. There has been a lot of pressure, a campaign ran for

:46:02. > :46:05.many years saying this test is too low and that people who perhaps was

:46:06. > :46:13.simply present at the scene of a murder, I stand as if you like, have

:46:14. > :46:15.been swept up in prosecutions and have been imprisoned, convicted of

:46:16. > :46:22.murder and given life sentences. They will be delighted by this

:46:23. > :46:27.ruling and I think we can expect a lot of activity in terms of people

:46:28. > :46:31.who have been commit did under these misdirection is given by judges, to

:46:32. > :46:31.go to the Court of Appeal and seek to have their convictions

:46:32. > :46:41.overturned. What does it mean for joint

:46:42. > :46:44.enterprise in general? Campaigners argue that are cases where

:46:45. > :46:50.prosecutions and convictions have been bored that would not have been

:46:51. > :46:55.possible without joint enterprise? Absolutely. This doesn't change the

:46:56. > :47:00.fact that, in many instances of crimes, let's take murder, if a

:47:01. > :47:03.murder is committed and a group of people were involved, it sometimes

:47:04. > :47:07.isn't possible to say who inflicted the fatal blow. Joint enterprise and

:47:08. > :47:12.allows a group to be prosecuted, but if you are a secondary party then

:47:13. > :47:17.you cannot be prosecuted and convicted simply because you may

:47:18. > :47:20.have foreseen that someone would be killed or seriously harmed.

:47:21. > :47:25.Prosecutions will continue but I think what it will force prosecutors

:47:26. > :47:29.to do is to look very carefully at who the key players were, who are

:47:30. > :47:33.the key movers, the key actors, and who were the people who were on the

:47:34. > :47:42.periphery, the bit part players, if you like, to focus the prosecution

:47:43. > :47:46.for murder on those key individuals. Other people involved could be

:47:47. > :47:50.prosecuted for a variety of crimes, affray, violent disorder if this is

:47:51. > :47:55.a gang incident outside a pub, a fight flares up, and even the

:47:56. > :47:59.manslaughter, but for murder, the most serious crime in the canon, to

:48:00. > :48:04.be prosecuted if you are a secondary party, it is not sufficient that you

:48:05. > :48:08.simply foresaw that another person within the group might either kill

:48:09. > :48:13.or might commit serious harm. If I've got time, let me give you a

:48:14. > :48:16.couple of examples that perhaps bring this home to people. Let's

:48:17. > :48:20.assume a gang of ten youths go out in an evening, one of them had a

:48:21. > :48:24.knife, let's say three of them know that this one person carries a

:48:25. > :48:28.knife, but there are six others. A fight flares up outside a pub, the

:48:29. > :48:32.one concerned get involved in the fight, takes out a knife, stabbed

:48:33. > :48:37.and killed the victim. The other six on the sidelines are shouting,

:48:38. > :48:45.cheering perhaps. Is it right that all of them should be prosecuted for

:48:46. > :48:48.murder? Under this ruling the prosecution would have to look

:48:49. > :48:52.carefully at the key players and who were the secondary parties, and

:48:53. > :49:04.those secondary party is good only be prosecuted if they assisted the

:49:05. > :49:05.murder. Thank you very much. More on that judgment from the Supreme Court

:49:06. > :49:09.coming up. I'm Joanna Gosling

:49:10. > :49:10.in for Victoria, welcome to the programme if

:49:11. > :49:17.you've just joined us. The breaking news in the last few

:49:18. > :49:20.minutes, the way in which judges interpret joint enterprise has been

:49:21. > :49:23.wrong for nearly 30 years. We will bring the reaction to that Supreme

:49:24. > :49:27.Court ruling over the next hour. Also:

:49:28. > :49:29.With models still under pressure to be unhealthily thin,

:49:30. > :49:32.should the UK fashion industry be forced to ban under-18s

:49:33. > :49:36.We hear from women about what it's like to be constantly told

:49:37. > :49:43.I went away and just I did really heavily, cut out all sugar, I

:49:44. > :49:47.exercised like crazy every day and I went back to see them at four months

:49:48. > :49:49.later and they said, you are doing good, losing weight, we just want

:49:50. > :49:51.you to get down to the bone. And we'll hear from a mum who says

:49:52. > :49:54.she is going to do everything to create the best memories possible

:49:55. > :49:56.for her three children who have a rare genetic disease

:49:57. > :50:15.which could kill them before The main news this morning, we have

:50:16. > :50:18.just had that dramatic ruling in the law on joint enterprise that we have

:50:19. > :50:22.been covering this morning, the Supreme Court says criminal trial

:50:23. > :50:26.judges have been wrongly interpreting legislation for the

:50:27. > :50:29.past 30 years. That is the legislation that allows gang members

:50:30. > :50:35.to be convicted even if they have not directly carried out the crime.

:50:36. > :50:39.1000 moving parts but a deal is possible, so says Number Ten as EU

:50:40. > :50:45.leaders and David Cameron prepare to hammer out a final deal on reform.

:50:46. > :50:47.The Prime Minister's headed for a Brussels summit,

:50:48. > :50:50.and if agreement is reached during what's expected to be

:50:51. > :50:52.an intense 48 hours of talks, we could have a referendum

:50:53. > :50:56.More than 400,000 people have now signed an online petition,

:50:57. > :50:59.calling for all children under the age of 11 to be vaccinated

:51:00. > :51:05.against meningitis B after the death of little girl last weekend.

:51:06. > :51:07.British Gas has reported a sharp rise in profits,

:51:08. > :51:17.It insists it has reduced costs for customers as wholesale prices

:51:18. > :51:24.Bobbies are taken off the beat for around half their time on duty,

:51:25. > :51:30.They say neighbourhood policing's at risk because officers are not

:51:31. > :51:33.diverted to other task such as guarding crime scenes.

:51:34. > :51:37.A ban on models under the age of 18 from the catwalk could be

:51:38. > :51:39.recommended by MPs later this month, this programme has been told.

:51:40. > :51:43.Models still faced strong pressure to be exceptionally thin.

:51:44. > :51:46.And an Australian town has been consumed by 'hairy panic' -

:51:47. > :51:48.it's the name given to a fast-growing tumbleweed that's

:51:49. > :51:55.Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Jess for the latest

:51:56. > :51:58.on Nike distancing themselves from boxer Manny Pacquiao.

:51:59. > :52:01.Yes, Nike have ended their sponsorship deal with boxer

:52:02. > :52:04.Manny Pacquiao, for anti-gay comments he made.

:52:05. > :52:11.Pacquiao, running for a seat in the Phillipines parliament,

:52:12. > :52:13.later apologised for saying homosexuals are 'worse

:52:14. > :52:17.This isn't the first time either - Nike dropped him

:52:18. > :52:19.in 2012, after he made similar anti-gay remarks,

:52:20. > :52:22.Earlier this morning Pacquiao tweeted this -

:52:23. > :52:25.No hard feelings it seems, as he's still fully kitted out

:52:26. > :52:34.Pacquiao has said he respects their decision.

:52:35. > :52:44.In a statement, Nike said:

:52:45. > :52:47.Now, in the past, a long-term injury to England captain Wayne Rooney

:52:48. > :52:51.in the months leading up to a major tournament would have been huge news

:52:52. > :52:55.But with the likes of Harry Kane and Jamie Vardy impressing this

:52:56. > :52:57.season, Rooney's six-week lay-off with a knee injury is receiving more

:52:58. > :53:02.The main focus is on his club's plight, Manchester United,

:53:03. > :53:24.The Daily Telegraph focus on the effects on United's success

:53:25. > :53:38.and The Daily Mail say it's a hammer blow for manager Louis van Gaal.

:53:39. > :53:41.And The Sun, a brief mention of England

:53:42. > :53:44.Rooney is expected back from injury in early April,

:53:45. > :53:46.so will miss England's friendly internationals against Germany

:53:47. > :53:50.Snooker now, and it was another dominant performance

:53:51. > :53:52.by Ronnie O'Sullivan at the Welsh Open in

:53:53. > :53:55.He thrashed Jimmy Robertson 4-0 to reach the fourth round.

:53:56. > :53:57.After the match though, he revealed how bored

:53:58. > :54:01.So bored in fact, he suggested organisers put in an adult creche

:54:02. > :54:05.He's Ronnie on the not so glamorous life of a snooker player.

:54:06. > :54:08.I get so bored at these tournaments, maybe stick an adult pressure to

:54:09. > :54:12.entertain us, because honestly as just want to go home now. I've had a

:54:13. > :54:15.haircut, being in a Chinese, went to the cafe for a couple of hours, I

:54:16. > :54:21.have had asleep, bought a bit of grub, what a day. It is certainly

:54:22. > :54:26.not glamorous. Don't get me wrong, I like Cardiff, but it is really long,

:54:27. > :54:27.at Sheffield is 17 days and am already dreading that. That is if

:54:28. > :54:30.you get to the final. He actually got some interesting

:54:31. > :54:33.replies from fans on Twitter. He was invited to Cardiff's

:54:34. > :54:35.indoor climbing centre. One fan offered to take him

:54:36. > :54:44.for a pint and some sushi. Drinking is probably not

:54:45. > :54:48.the best preparation. But that is all the sport by now.

:54:49. > :54:54.He needs something to cheer him up! Hello, thank you for

:54:55. > :54:56.joining us this morning. Welcome to the programme

:54:57. > :54:58.if you've just joined us. We're on BBC Two and the BBC

:54:59. > :55:05.News Channel until 11am. Throughout the programme we will

:55:06. > :55:10.bring more reaction to the breaking ruling on joint enterprise from the

:55:11. > :55:15.Supreme Court. Judges have been told they have wrongly interpreted the

:55:16. > :55:22.law over the last 30 years. Get in touch on all of the stories we are

:55:23. > :55:23.talking about, text charged at the standard network rate.

:55:24. > :55:25.Wherever you are you can watch our programme online

:55:26. > :55:28.via the BBC News app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:55:29. > :55:33.We have got some breaking news from Police Scotland, we are just hearing

:55:34. > :55:40.that a second elderly hill walkers who was among a group of three who

:55:41. > :55:44.went missing near Durisdeer in Dumfries and Galloway has died in

:55:45. > :55:47.hospital, so a second elderly hill walkers among a group of three that

:55:48. > :55:49.went missing has died in hospital. We will bring you more as we get it.

:55:50. > :55:51.Should under-18s be banned from the catwalk?

:55:52. > :55:54.This programme has learnt that a report by MPs out at the end

:55:55. > :55:58.of this month is due to recommend exactly that in a bid to protect

:55:59. > :56:00.them from an industry plagued by problems like eating disorders.

:56:01. > :56:02.Other countries have already brought in health requirements instead.

:56:03. > :56:04.Ahead of the start of London Fashion Week tomorrow,

:56:05. > :56:07.our reporter Catrin Nye has been looking at the latest calls

:56:08. > :56:17.Beautiful, aspirational, glamorous - or too thin, too young,

:56:18. > :56:25.This Swedish model went viral last year.

:56:26. > :56:28.According to the model industry, you cannot look like this.

:56:29. > :56:34.Rosie Nelson has been modelling for four years.

:56:35. > :56:39.Originally from Australia, she lives in London.

:56:40. > :56:42.A size eight, she says she was told to get thinner.

:56:43. > :56:44.So I went away and I just dieted really heavily.

:56:45. > :56:54.And I went back to see them about four months later,

:56:55. > :56:56.and they said, "You're doing good, you're losing weight.

:56:57. > :56:58.We just want you to get down to the bone..."

:56:59. > :57:02.I just sat there thinking, "I can't lose

:57:03. > :57:10.I started a petition on Change.org, just to raise awareness.

:57:11. > :57:12.Hundreds and hundreds of girls messaged me saying the same thing

:57:13. > :57:15.had happened to them, they had been encouraged to become

:57:16. > :57:17.In December Rosie took that petition to

:57:18. > :57:20.Parliament, with Caroline Nokes, the MP.

:57:21. > :57:28.The same MP 's leading Parliamentary inquiry that started in October. At

:57:29. > :57:32.the end of the month, we're told the inquiry will recommend that under

:57:33. > :57:37.18s should be banned from the catwalk. Legislation is what would,

:57:38. > :57:42.at a stroke, make sure you were not seeing 16 to 18-year-olds with a BMI

:57:43. > :57:47.of 15.6 being told to lose weight. Under 18 is young because it does

:57:48. > :57:54.encourage a ball schlock. When they were model womenswear, they do not

:57:55. > :57:59.represent women. It would be silly because you are missing a lot of

:58:00. > :58:03.talent, unless the same would apply to ballerinas, athlete, who have to

:58:04. > :58:06.perform at a certain level and be at a certain level of fitness under 18.

:58:07. > :58:12.Should they be banned from competing? Where do we stop? It is

:58:13. > :58:18.the responsibility of the agencies or that girl's peer or parents to

:58:19. > :58:24.keep an eye on them. No legislation can take the place of a parent. It

:58:25. > :58:28.was ultra-skinny models that made this small British designer make

:58:29. > :58:32.their own rules for photo shoots. Our experience of professional

:58:33. > :58:42.models is that they just really don't eat. They tell a fire under

:58:43. > :58:45.pressure to lose weight. Heidy has added a clause to contracts for her

:58:46. > :58:50.models to say they have to eat when on a shoot. We are saying we are not

:58:51. > :58:54.going to be part of that demand. The inquiry followed the collapse of a

:58:55. > :58:59.voluntary code of conduct introduced a decade ago to keep young teens off

:59:00. > :59:01.the catwalk. It didn't work. Models as young as 14 have walked at London

:59:02. > :59:04.Fashion Week. Israeli model Maayan Keret

:59:05. > :59:12.began her career at just She runs workshops now for young

:59:13. > :59:24.girls about body image and self-esteem. What age were you on

:59:25. > :59:28.the catwalk from? I started at 16, started modelling at 15.5 and was

:59:29. > :59:36.already during the summer road show, Marc Jacobs, whoever, at 16. Do you

:59:37. > :59:39.think that is old enough to be on a catwalk? What did you think about

:59:40. > :59:48.the suggestion that models should have to be 18 and over? I think it

:59:49. > :59:53.is a bit strict, but I think it is true that it is too young. I'm

:59:54. > :00:00.thinking the age of 15 or 16 you should still go to school and hang

:00:01. > :00:05.out with your friends. I think, at the moment, when I was 16, I thought

:00:06. > :00:08.it was the best experience, maybe not the best but I thought it was

:00:09. > :00:13.good experience, but now when I think back, I think it was too early

:00:14. > :00:20.and I was too young and too naive to deal with this kind of business and

:00:21. > :00:25.this kind of pressure. The people may be good people but it is still a

:00:26. > :00:31.business. What was the pressure that you were under? The pressure was a

:00:32. > :00:35.lot of pressure, a physical pressure of working a lot of hours and

:00:36. > :00:40.standing on your feet for many, many hours, and it was a mental pressure

:00:41. > :00:46.of being your best all the time, being successful, as any worker has

:00:47. > :00:51.to be, but at a very young age, and of course to be slim at the age of,

:00:52. > :00:59.when your body is still developing and you still need fact, the need as

:01:00. > :01:06.a model is to be thinner than you are naturally, even if you are thin.

:01:07. > :01:10.Where does that pressure come from? We were hearing from Rosie who said

:01:11. > :01:15.she had to slim down to the bone. Were you told things like that? No,

:01:16. > :01:24.never told to slim down to the bone, nobody told me such hard words, but

:01:25. > :01:30.they did measure me with a measured tape every day, sometimes even a few

:01:31. > :01:38.times a day, depending on the time of the year, and the amount of work

:01:39. > :01:43.I had. I needed to be in certain measures that were not always my

:01:44. > :01:48.natural body, even though I was a thin girl all my life, I was still

:01:49. > :01:54.not the right measure, which is, I don't know what it is today, but it

:01:55. > :01:59.was rough back then. So I needed to be on the right measure, and I never

:02:00. > :02:06.got any explanation of how to get to this measure. So I always needed to

:02:07. > :02:10.find out myself how to get to this impossible measure.

:02:11. > :02:21.You say impossible measures, what did you do to get to them? I didn't

:02:22. > :02:30.eat enough, I was doing extreme diets all the years from 16 to 21.

:02:31. > :02:47.Which was kind of anorexic. I wasn't eating, almost. I was very low

:02:48. > :02:52.weight it and not eating enough, didn't have a lot of things in my

:02:53. > :02:59.body working right at the time because I didn't eat enough. I never

:03:00. > :03:07.got to extreme anorexia, but I was anorexic. Did anybody show any

:03:08. > :03:14.concern about that? Not really, maybe once or twice a client said

:03:15. > :03:21.maybe I am too thin and somebody should take care of it. But nobody

:03:22. > :03:26.did, nobody. Where you markedly thinner than the others or is it

:03:27. > :03:36.just the norm you got used to? I was never thinner than the others. I was

:03:37. > :03:41.the same like all the other girls. I was even heavier, a little bit

:03:42. > :03:48.sometimes. Because my normal body shape is a little heavier. Not

:03:49. > :03:51.heavy, but heavier than a model. Do you think the fashion industry and

:03:52. > :03:56.obviously there are lots of strands to that, that the fashion industry

:03:57. > :04:01.should take responsibility for this? And if so, is it the agencies, is it

:04:02. > :04:07.the designers and what could or should be done? I think everybody

:04:08. > :04:13.should take responsibility for that. The fashion industry and also the

:04:14. > :04:20.other media, or the media should take care of that which models we

:04:21. > :04:29.should see in shows and different TV shows and on the runways, in the

:04:30. > :04:33.fashion industry and I think the agencies, the designers, everybody

:04:34. > :04:38.has to think about it. It is not only about eating disorders.

:04:39. > :04:45.Sometimes eating disorders are actually mental problems. I think it

:04:46. > :04:53.is more about body image and more about women all over the world, but

:04:54. > :04:59.don't feel good with their body. A lot of it is connected to the role

:05:00. > :05:02.models we see in the campaigns, in the advertising and in the

:05:03. > :05:09.magazines, where ever. I think everybody should take responsibility

:05:10. > :05:13.for that. Lots of people getting in touch, Harry on Facebook, I

:05:14. > :05:16.appreciate it is the ambition of thousands of young girls but it is

:05:17. > :05:22.an exploitative and pressured industry. As for models in general,

:05:23. > :05:29.there is nothing attractive about sticking out hipbones and ribs. They

:05:30. > :05:36.might as well hang clothes on E T. Someone else says, a fashion model

:05:37. > :05:44.should be banned if the model is too thin. Is there comparisons in the

:05:45. > :05:48.fashion industry with what looked good and noble people out there? I

:05:49. > :05:58.think there are little changes in the last few months that we see

:05:59. > :06:07.better images in some places and maybe we can be carefully optimistic

:06:08. > :06:12.when received the Pirelli calendar of different women. So yes, I think

:06:13. > :06:29.the fashion industry makes a a few small steps. The image we used

:06:30. > :06:34.to see in the fashion industry, is nothing to do with real life, it is

:06:35. > :06:41.to do with a fantasy world of designers, it has to do with

:06:42. > :06:47.escapism. It is nothing to do with real beauty of real women. I am not

:06:48. > :06:54.saying models are not real women, of course they are, but it is not the

:06:55. > :07:04.beauty we see on the streets and in the different places, which I think

:07:05. > :07:10.we should aim for, try to be or do our best to take care of our health

:07:11. > :07:15.and body to look like. You were 15 when you started modelling, 16 when

:07:16. > :07:23.he went on the catwalk, what impact did those pressures have on your

:07:24. > :07:36.self-esteem? I had a very low self esteem. On one level I had a high

:07:37. > :07:43.self-esteem of people telling me how great I looked, because as a model,

:07:44. > :07:52.I was doing very well. I was very successful. I had high self-esteem

:07:53. > :07:58.for that. With my life, with relationships with having a normal

:07:59. > :08:03.regular live, I didn't have a real dig self-esteem because it was

:08:04. > :08:09.always related to how I look at work, how I look with enough

:08:10. > :08:14.make-up, how I look perfect as a model, but nothing to do with my

:08:15. > :08:20.everyday life. So my self-esteem was very low and I had to work for very

:08:21. > :08:29.many years and very hard to build up that self-esteem. Like, my real

:08:30. > :08:36.self-esteem, not only my persona self-esteem. Do you wish you hadn't

:08:37. > :08:42.gone into that world? No, I don't like regrets, I think it is a waste

:08:43. > :08:47.of time. I am not thinking I shouldn't. I wish I was a little

:08:48. > :08:54.older in this world so I had more tools to deal with the pressure and

:08:55. > :09:02.I was a little bit more mature and self-confident. But I don't regret,

:09:03. > :09:08.because what I do today, I help hundreds, maybe thousands of young

:09:09. > :09:13.girls, it has to do with the journey I went through by myself. If I

:09:14. > :09:19.didn't go through this journey, I could never do what I do. I could

:09:20. > :09:24.never understand. You are helping these girls, are they girls who have

:09:25. > :09:27.had the same experiences and you are coaxing them at it, or are you

:09:28. > :09:35.helping them deal with the world as they are in it? I work with normal

:09:36. > :09:41.girls, I don't work with models, but sometimes I have a model in my

:09:42. > :09:47.workshop. But I work with regular girls. Any girl has the same issues,

:09:48. > :09:56.maybe when you are a model it is just a little deeper and stronger.

:09:57. > :10:00.But it is the same issues. Thank you very much. Thank you, it was a

:10:01. > :10:04.pleasure. If you want to share that

:10:05. > :10:06.film you can find it on our programme page

:10:07. > :10:15.bbc.co.uk/victoria. Mum whose children have a rare

:10:16. > :10:20.genetic disease which means they could die before they reach 17 say

:10:21. > :10:26.she's going to do what she can do to create the best memories they have.

:10:27. > :10:33.They all have micro-conned real disease. She had no idea she was a

:10:34. > :10:38.carrier until the children were given the diagnosis. Little is known

:10:39. > :10:43.about this, but it's thought one in 200 babies in the UK are born with

:10:44. > :10:45.genetic changes that could cause it. It's described as a DNA time bomb

:10:46. > :10:53.and there is no cure. What is mitochondrial disease?

:10:54. > :11:00.Small, strong and full of energy just like the mitochondria that is

:11:01. > :11:05.in every cell in your body. Mitochondria are the life force

:11:06. > :11:09.inside us all. They are the power supply in all ourselves providing

:11:10. > :11:16.energy for them to survive, thrive and make sweet music. Our bodies'

:11:17. > :11:21.organs, brain, heart and liver are high maintenance and require more

:11:22. > :11:24.energy to perform their functions. When someone has mitochondrial

:11:25. > :11:31.disease, the mitochondria have become rundown and the cell's power

:11:32. > :11:41.goes out. They stop performing and start to die. So the body's organs

:11:42. > :11:46.don't have enough energy to work. Mitochondrial disease can affect

:11:47. > :11:49.anyone. Recent research shows about one in 200 babies in the UK are born

:11:50. > :11:55.with genetic changes that can cause it. Faulty micro-conned you have

:11:56. > :12:00.been linked to a number of common diseases. -- mitochondria. Whilst

:12:01. > :12:07.some people don't show symptoms, others develop problems that are

:12:08. > :12:11.undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. There are very few effective treatments

:12:12. > :12:13.and no cure. For children with the disease it can be debilitating and

:12:14. > :12:18.their lives can be cut tragically short.

:12:19. > :12:24.That film was given to us by the Lilly foundation and it helps to

:12:25. > :12:32.explain the effects the illness has on people. We can talk to Lisa, her

:12:33. > :12:36.three children, may seek, Callum and 13-year-old Jack Doyle have

:12:37. > :12:47.mitochondria. Thank you for coming in to talk to us. I have met two of

:12:48. > :12:51.your kids, I've met Callum and Macy, absolutely gorgeous. Up until a few

:12:52. > :12:58.years ago, you thought you had a very healthy family? Yes, everything

:12:59. > :13:10.was fine until Callum just became unwell. Then we got this diagnosis

:13:11. > :13:19.and obviously the whole world just turned upside down. I know you are

:13:20. > :13:25.talking because you want people to be aware because it is something

:13:26. > :13:30.that is very rare? Very rare. You didn't know anything about it until

:13:31. > :13:36.it has such a devastating impact on your family. What for the first

:13:37. > :13:43.signs in Callum? Callum, when he was about ten, the school rang me and

:13:44. > :13:51.said he was struggling throwing and catching a ball, so they asked me

:13:52. > :13:57.would I take him to the doctor and ask if there was anything there.

:13:58. > :14:02.Just to get him checked out. We took him and they said, we'll get him

:14:03. > :14:13.referred just to see if there was a problem. They thought it was

:14:14. > :14:22.dyspraxia, with that it is physio and things like that. And

:14:23. > :14:27.occupational therapy. That went on for about a year and a half and we

:14:28. > :14:34.were getting help with that. What we didn't know at the time was it was

:14:35. > :14:38.the starting signs of mitochondrial disease. It can go unnoticed, it can

:14:39. > :14:46.be misdiagnosed. Mitochondrial disease has been other things. He

:14:47. > :14:50.was actually starting to present with the symptoms then, but

:14:51. > :14:56.obviously we didn't know and nobody else knew it at the time. What with

:14:57. > :15:01.the symptoms and when was it picked up? It wasn't picked up until he was

:15:02. > :15:06.12 when he started high school when things started to become a lot more

:15:07. > :15:14.serious. He actually started collapsing to the floor. He had a

:15:15. > :15:20.serious bang to the head in school, which led to me taking him to the

:15:21. > :15:26.doctor. It led to him going to the hospital for an MRI scan. When you

:15:27. > :15:41.were told about mitochondrial disease, what we are told? They just

:15:42. > :15:51.said... Your child has mitochondrial disease. Which obviously I'd never

:15:52. > :15:58.heard of before. There is no cure, no medication, nothing we can do for

:15:59. > :16:01.him at all. He would have to undergo a muscle and skin biopsy, which was

:16:02. > :16:11.sent off to Newcastle University for further testing. To see what type of

:16:12. > :16:17.micro-conned real disease he had -- mitochondrial disease. To see if

:16:18. > :16:21.other family members had the gene. You carry it, don't you, but you

:16:22. > :16:30.obviously didn't know that? No other family members had been affect it.

:16:31. > :16:37.Everybody was fit and healthy. It is a severely life limiting disease? It

:16:38. > :16:44.is. When you were first told, what were you told? When we were first

:16:45. > :16:48.told it was genetic, obviously I was told that it was me that was the

:16:49. > :17:07.carrier. It was heartbreaking. For me, as a

:17:08. > :17:13.mum, to find out... Which then led to my other two children being

:17:14. > :17:17.tested. Their blood tests came back within about three to four weeks, we

:17:18. > :17:30.then found out that they also had the gene, they all have high

:17:31. > :17:39.affected cells, and the higher your cells are affected, the more you

:17:40. > :17:49.become affected. Our gene is very rare, as well. All my three children

:17:50. > :17:52.present in very different ways, even though they have the same gene, the

:17:53. > :18:01.symptoms are completely different as well, which is very strange to other

:18:02. > :18:05.people, but this is the thing with mitochondrial disease, it is very

:18:06. > :18:14.complex will stop no two people will ever be the same. But you obviously

:18:15. > :18:17.know now, because in retrospect with Callan when you did not know what

:18:18. > :18:22.was going on, presumably you are spotting symptoms in the other two

:18:23. > :18:27.that you would not have picked up? Even my little girl, before she was

:18:28. > :18:34.tested, I will spotting things in her before she was even tested. I

:18:35. > :18:42.knew straightaway, I could see things from when my boys were

:18:43. > :18:48.younger, I was picking up things, I took myself way back to when my boys

:18:49. > :18:51.were little, I could pick things up even going back to when they were

:18:52. > :18:57.younger, they were at school and they would say to me, they are not

:18:58. > :19:00.retaining information in school, they are forgetting things by the

:19:01. > :19:04.time they have gone from the teacher's desk to their own desk

:19:05. > :19:07.they have come back to say, what was that again? They had completely

:19:08. > :19:19.forgotten the information. They cannot retain information. It is

:19:20. > :19:22.just a very, very hard, sad disease. And obviously for you as a mum,

:19:23. > :19:27.wanting to do the best for your kids, wanting to protect them,

:19:28. > :19:30.taking on board all that you were learning about the impact of

:19:31. > :19:36.mitochondrial and the fact that it does mean that they are unlikely to

:19:37. > :19:45.live beyond their teens... I was told that information in a genetics

:19:46. > :19:48.meeting. You obviously did not tell them for some time, they have only

:19:49. > :19:59.recently found out what it does mean for them. How can anyone cope with

:20:00. > :20:09.that, really? I have got three children with the same disease. It

:20:10. > :20:18.is your whole life over, really. You just think you are going to have...

:20:19. > :20:25.You have got these three beautiful children... And you think you have

:20:26. > :20:35.got this whole life mapped out ahead, and then you just... You are

:20:36. > :20:47.flawed with this news is that there is no future, because there is no

:20:48. > :20:59.cure for this disease. There is not enough known about it. There is just

:21:00. > :21:05.not enough funding to be put into it, there is not enough people that

:21:06. > :21:15.know about this disease, and it is not fair, it is just not fair.

:21:16. > :21:19.Everybody will be watching, saying you are an amazing woman to talk

:21:20. > :21:23.about this devastating situation for your family, and you are doing this

:21:24. > :21:28.selflessly because you want to raise awareness. Very much. I've done

:21:29. > :21:35.fundraising in my own town, obviously it has been in the papers

:21:36. > :21:39.over the last couple of days. I just want to get as much awareness out

:21:40. > :21:45.there as possible, because I want people to know what this is doing to

:21:46. > :21:51.families and children, and nobody knows, nobody has ever heard of it

:21:52. > :21:55.before. Even after two years of Callan being diagnosed, I still talk

:21:56. > :21:58.to people and they go, I have never heard of it before. That is how

:21:59. > :22:04.devastating this is, because nobody has heard of it before. All these

:22:05. > :22:13.children are passing away with this disease that nobody has ever heard.

:22:14. > :22:17.I mentioned that I met Maycee and Callum, really lovely kids. You want

:22:18. > :22:21.to make sure every day is special for them, I know they go to school

:22:22. > :22:25.and try to live as normal a life as possible, what else do you do to

:22:26. > :22:33.make things special? Try to take them on holiday, when we can. Days

:22:34. > :22:37.out, just try to do as much as we can for them, make things as fun as

:22:38. > :22:41.possible. Obviously that is not always possible because it depends

:22:42. > :22:47.on how well they are, and if they are able to get out as well, because

:22:48. > :22:52.Callum, Jack and Maycee, they get very tired and it is not always

:22:53. > :22:58.possible, and you have to have money to do these kinds of things as well,

:22:59. > :23:01.my town has been fantastic, the kids' schools have been fantastic,

:23:02. > :23:09.they have raised a lot of money for us to do things, for us to be able

:23:10. > :23:15.to go on holiday and do things. That has helped us in men C, and it helps

:23:16. > :23:19.ease the pain a little because it helps you forget a little when you

:23:20. > :23:26.are away, because when you are in the house, and you are behind closed

:23:27. > :23:33.doors, all you have then it is time to think, and nobody sees that when

:23:34. > :23:38.we closed the front door. We are left with the hurt and pain the

:23:39. > :23:42.whole time, but you see it more in the house. When you go away and see

:23:43. > :23:51.them happy and having fun, it just makes that time a little bit easier.

:23:52. > :23:57.I can't explain it, it just takes it away for a little bit, because other

:23:58. > :24:02.ways -- otherwise you are always at the hospital, this year meetings,

:24:03. > :24:09.constantly there all the time, and it is like a time bomb, that is what

:24:10. > :24:18.it is. Thank you, Lisa, for coming in.

:24:19. > :24:21.We will have a lot more of the news coverage coming up. Let's talk about

:24:22. > :24:26.the EU now. Over the next couple of days

:24:27. > :24:35.David Cameron will be at a summit in Brussels for what his aides

:24:36. > :24:38.are calling 'crunch time' He's hoping to get agreement

:24:39. > :24:41.on changes to our relationship with Europe - including changes

:24:42. > :24:42.on European integration, business competitiveness,

:24:43. > :24:43.benefits restrictions Number Ten says they're optimistic

:24:44. > :24:50.about reaching a deal. Once that deal has been struck,

:24:51. > :24:53.we will be able to have our say in a referendum on whether Britain

:24:54. > :24:57.should stay in or out of the EU The summit, David Cameron's

:24:58. > :24:59.negotiations on Europe and the forthcoming referendum have

:25:00. > :25:02.been dominating most news coverage over the last few weeks and months,

:25:03. > :25:05.but how much of it are any Our reporter James Longman

:25:06. > :25:13.has been to find out. I'm in central London,

:25:14. > :25:14.asking people what they do or don't I'll be asking them a few questions

:25:15. > :25:17.and keeping this very scientific poll -

:25:18. > :25:18.no clue, some idea. Do you know what you

:25:19. > :25:20.referendum will be about? I don't know anything,

:25:21. > :25:26.sorry, about that. The EU referendum is about

:25:27. > :25:44.whether we stay in the European Do you know what David Cameron has

:25:45. > :25:51.managed to negotiate for us God, I was actually

:25:52. > :25:55.listening to LBC yesterday. No, it's not to do

:25:56. > :26:04.with being married? Do I know what he is trying

:26:05. > :26:13.to negotiate in Europe? Oh, no - you've made me

:26:14. > :26:19.feel like a right... If it's any consolation,

:26:20. > :26:23.no one else here knows either. I think the capability

:26:24. > :26:45.of the Government to veto any laws that are made from

:26:46. > :26:49.Brussels directly. And I think he is also trying to get

:26:50. > :26:49.agreement on benefits that are made from

:26:50. > :26:52.Brussels directly. cap, and a migrants' cap,

:26:53. > :26:56.but it is not as far as what maybe Do you know what the emergency brake

:26:57. > :27:16.is? Not on a car?! Not a clue, and I do

:27:17. > :27:24.politics, but the European argument is really confusing me.

:27:25. > :27:38.Not the foggiest, no idea. I think I know that. Oh, I need to remember

:27:39. > :27:43.now! Something about reducing the amount given to defence the two

:27:44. > :27:49.years? Four years? You did well! Well, we have spoken to 60 people,

:27:50. > :27:53.and most of them had some idea about the EU referendum,

:27:54. > :27:55.but very few had any clue about any of the detail

:27:56. > :28:05.of what David Cameron We always try to explain stories

:28:06. > :28:10.clearly on this programme so our political Guru Norman Smith is here

:28:11. > :28:17.to do just that. In a sentence, what is the EU referendum about? The! Put

:28:18. > :28:24.aside all the heat and noise and arguments, it basically comes down

:28:25. > :28:29.to this, do you feel better off in Europe, do you feel comfortable

:28:30. > :28:34.being a European, or do you think, I think I would be all right outside

:28:35. > :28:39.the EU, I think we are big enough to stand on our own two feet and will

:28:40. > :28:45.probably prosper outside the EU? It comes down to the very core question

:28:46. > :28:51.about identity, and where you think we would be better off. That is

:28:52. > :28:58.basically what it is about. A long sentence, but you nailed it! What is

:28:59. > :29:02.the emergency brake? Well, it is Brussels speak for being able to

:29:03. > :29:08.crank up the lever to halt the number of EU migrants coming into

:29:09. > :29:12.Britain by curbing their ability to get benefits, only it hasn't quite

:29:13. > :29:15.turned out like that, it has turned out more like a speed bump and a

:29:16. > :29:18.couple of traffic cones because we will not stop them getting benefits

:29:19. > :29:22.but make sure they get them more slowly, that is what the emergency

:29:23. > :29:33.brake is about. You are right to focus on these kinds of questions.

:29:34. > :29:35.All week we have been trying to look at the facts and fiction because

:29:36. > :29:39.there is a lot of claim and counterclaim in this argument, and

:29:40. > :29:42.we have been running films looking at the facts and fiction around

:29:43. > :29:46.immigration in Europe, the cost of Europe, so today I have been looking

:29:47. > :29:54.at the Euro facts and fictions about how far we are run by Europe.

:29:55. > :30:05.The many, the issue in this referendum is simply this: Brussels

:30:06. > :30:08.means red tape, regulation, bothersome rules and bureaucracy.

:30:09. > :30:14.Far better for Britain to run itself. So, who is running the show?

:30:15. > :30:22.Here are some EU row facts and fictions. Let's start with the bent

:30:23. > :30:27.banana. For many, it symbolises all that is wrong with the EU after it

:30:28. > :30:33.tried to ban them. How daft, how barmy! And yet it is a you wrote

:30:34. > :30:39.fiction, there was no ban, only consumer standards to ensure you and

:30:40. > :30:45.I were not sold damaged bananas, and get the EU does turn out a huge

:30:46. > :30:51.amount of rules and regulations. In the early 1980s this peaked at a

:30:52. > :30:56.staggering 14,000 in a single year. Today in Blighty, 30% of British

:30:57. > :31:00.laws originate in Brussels will stop that doesn't take into account

:31:01. > :31:06.regulations like the banana one, of which there are many more. That is

:31:07. > :31:14.eight Euro fact. But things seem to be getting better. No, not my normal

:31:15. > :31:19.footwear. Take these high heels. If you are a hairdresser, you don't

:31:20. > :31:22.have to worry about Brussels saying you cannot wear them because they

:31:23. > :31:39.are dangerous. They considered that but in the end said no to that in

:31:40. > :31:41.2012, and now a whole load of other overzealous Euro rules have also

:31:42. > :31:47.been cancelled. Last year only 23 new EU laws were proposed compare to

:31:48. > :31:49.an average of around 130 a year. So, red tape is being produced, that is

:31:50. > :32:00.a Euro fact. All fine and dandy, but what about the mass ranks of

:32:01. > :32:06.Eurocrats? There are a whopping 3600 interpreters and the EU says a

:32:07. > :32:11.number of civil service in Brussels working for it is 50 5000. But

:32:12. > :32:19.Birmingham City Council has roughly the same number of people employed

:32:20. > :32:27.-- 50 5000. It is a Euro fact that Russell 's bureaucracy is big, but

:32:28. > :32:30.maybe not that big. But what of business? Many bosses complained

:32:31. > :32:33.that Brussels is costing them a bomb, never mind the time and bother

:32:34. > :32:42.of it all, the cost of complying with EU standards cost British

:32:43. > :32:49.business acumen does ?33 billion a year according to a group calling

:32:50. > :32:52.for EU reform. However, even if we left, British firms would still have

:32:53. > :32:59.to comply with most of these rules to be able to trade in Europe. It is

:33:00. > :33:03.estimated 93 of the costliest regulations would still apply, like

:33:04. > :33:09.those on health and safety, the environment, employment. The total

:33:10. > :33:16.cost, ?31 billion! So it is a Euro Akrotiri that business pays a lot to

:33:17. > :33:27.be in the EU, but it is also a Euro fact that business would pay a lot

:33:28. > :33:45.to be out of the EU. the law what happens today because

:33:46. > :33:54.there was the renegotiation with Donald Tusk, but it is not over? No,

:33:55. > :34:01.David Cameron begins the thought process he is trying to get with the

:34:02. > :34:06.other 27 EU leaders. But there are some big stumbling blocks which he

:34:07. > :34:14.has got to overcome. Stumbling block number one centres on in a fit curbs

:34:15. > :34:21.and Mr Cameron's hopes to limit access to tax credits and child

:34:22. > :34:24.benefit. A lot of Eastern European countries are unhappy saying they

:34:25. > :34:29.don't like it because it would be discriminating against people who

:34:30. > :34:36.are working in Britain. The second stumbling block is around the in,

:34:37. > :34:43.out safeguards, protection for countries like Britain who are

:34:44. > :34:48.outside the euro from being bossed around by the larger euro group. The

:34:49. > :34:52.French aren't happy with that because they think we're looking for

:34:53. > :34:56.special treatment for the City of London the third stumbling block

:34:57. > :35:05.centres on treaty change. Mr Cameron wants some of this deal to be law

:35:06. > :35:09.not to be picked. But some other countries are thinking, we don't

:35:10. > :35:13.want to do that, we don't think it should be incorporated in future

:35:14. > :35:20.treaties, so there are some high stumbling blocks Mr Cameron will

:35:21. > :35:23.have to overcome. Having spoken to Downing Street this morning, I would

:35:24. > :35:29.say they are cautiously optimistic he is going to get a deal. Whatever

:35:30. > :35:33.happens in Brussels, we will all have the opportunity to vote in a

:35:34. > :35:39.referendum before the end of next year, on whether Britain should stay

:35:40. > :35:40.in or get out of the EU. The referendum could be as soon as this

:35:41. > :35:54.June. Let's talk to two gas who have yet

:35:55. > :36:03.to make up their minds. Nathan, why are you undersigned did much to mark

:36:04. > :36:08.people weren't sure personally about the referendum and secondly, they

:36:09. > :36:16.weren't sure what Mr Cameron was negotiating. So you get muddied

:36:17. > :36:22.waters and it is those muddied waters you are not sure you get what

:36:23. > :36:25.used stay or if you leave. There's so much disengagement, we're not

:36:26. > :36:30.sure what we will get and how it will affect our daily lives, so it

:36:31. > :36:36.is impossible to make minds up. What are the key issues for you?

:36:37. > :36:41.Immigration, sovereignty and trade and business and finance, how much

:36:42. > :36:46.we put in and how much we get out. I am looking at what will affect me.

:36:47. > :36:50.Immigration, if it is uncontrolled. When I graduate and go for a job,

:36:51. > :36:55.uncontrolled immigration is a key issue, especially the students.

:36:56. > :37:02.Finance, if written are putting in more than we are getting back, it is

:37:03. > :37:05.an issue. We will prosper more outside of Europe, then we will have

:37:06. > :37:09.to look at it. Have you been looking and listening out for what goes on

:37:10. > :37:17.with the renegotiation? Will it make a difference to you? I was looking

:37:18. > :37:23.at the drafted document, the benefits is the big one he is going

:37:24. > :37:27.for. But so much of it is so hard to take in and understand and make

:37:28. > :37:31.sense of, that I am slowly trying to seek out more information, but

:37:32. > :37:38.becoming so disillusioned with it, I am not sure where to begin. Gavin,

:37:39. > :37:42.why can't you make up your mind? I am waiting to see what Mr Cameron

:37:43. > :37:48.brings back from Brussels. The larger issue is what kind of country

:37:49. > :37:57.we want to see children growing up living in. We let in over a million

:37:58. > :38:02.migrants last year and expect more than half a million to come this

:38:03. > :38:05.year. Once those migrants are processed and given permission to

:38:06. > :38:12.stay, they will all be entitled to come and live in Britain under the

:38:13. > :38:19.EU free movement directive. That is the most important issue, or the

:38:20. > :38:23.vast majority of people living outside of London, the biggest

:38:24. > :38:28.concern for the future. We'll the outcome of what the deal is League 2

:38:29. > :38:34.you making up your mind in terms of whether you think it will have an

:38:35. > :38:42.impact on immigration or not? Yes, I don't hold out too much hope.

:38:43. > :38:55.Basically, Mr Cameron has laid out he wants to remain in Europe and has

:38:56. > :38:58.showed his hand. In which case, the EU has Mr Cameron going with a

:38:59. > :39:03.begging bowl asking for this and that. But the majority of voters in

:39:04. > :39:09.the last election was by him to do something about immigration and not

:39:10. > :39:23.allow it to continue in the hundreds of thousands. Are you glad you will

:39:24. > :39:28.get a chance to vote on this? Absolutely, this is the most

:39:29. > :39:33.important vote, possibly in my lifetime, possibly in many other

:39:34. > :39:37.people's lifetimes. The EU is allowing in hundreds of thousands of

:39:38. > :39:42.young men from a culture that regards women as possessions and

:39:43. > :39:51.Western women as easy prey, as we saw from the events of Cologne on

:39:52. > :39:55.New Year's Eve. Mrs Merkel is not just jeopardising her own country,

:39:56. > :40:26.but possibly ours as well. Thank you both.

:40:27. > :40:35.We can speak to the boxing promoter, Kelly Maloney. What do you think of

:40:36. > :40:39.the comments? They are outrageous, for a person who is a role model to

:40:40. > :40:45.a lot of people, to make comments like that, is very wrong. I don't

:40:46. > :40:50.know why he has said that because he is a man who has travelled, supposed

:40:51. > :40:58.to be a well educated man, running for the Senate in his own country. I

:40:59. > :41:06.know same-sex marriages are illegal in the Philippines. But in the broad

:41:07. > :41:17.sense of things, it is a dangerous and very harmful comment. Nike have

:41:18. > :41:25.ended their association with him, is it the right thing to do? That is up

:41:26. > :41:29.to Nike, he has tried to apologise, but he shouldn't have made those

:41:30. > :41:36.comments in the first place. They are offensive comments to a section

:41:37. > :41:40.of society. Tyson Fury ran into controversy with his comments last

:41:41. > :41:47.year on women and homosexuality. What is it with boxes and comments.

:41:48. > :41:56.OK it is two, but is it indicative of an issue? They open their mouth

:41:57. > :42:00.before their brain goes into gear. They don't think these comments will

:42:01. > :42:04.come back and hope for the rest of their career, no matter what they do

:42:05. > :42:08.what they say. Kelly Maloney, thank you for joining us.

:42:09. > :42:15.A quick congratulations to our reporter who was recognised by the

:42:16. > :42:22.Royal television Society's journalism awards as West young

:42:23. > :42:23.talent. They praised his fresh, provocative and creative work. Work

:42:24. > :42:51.like this. These guys are milking it because

:42:52. > :43:01.they are Islamophobic 's. Islamophobia band. As a consequence,

:43:02. > :43:07.freedom of religion and freedom of speech is banned? There should be no

:43:08. > :43:12.freedom of religion for a religion like that. Do the Muslims in this

:43:13. > :43:23.area want to take over Great Britain? No, they don't. Do they

:43:24. > :43:31.feel British? Yes. Are they indicative of Isis? Absolutely not,

:43:32. > :43:35.no. Congratulations. Victoria is back tomorrow and she will be

:43:36. > :43:40.speaking to a woman who says she is a bit to shoplifting and she will

:43:41. > :43:48.look at this ability. Join Victoria tomorrow. I will see you next week.

:43:49. > :43:52.Have a lovely afternoon. The conversation doesn't end here, you

:43:53. > :43:58.can get in touch via all the usual ways on social media.