25/04/2016

:00:09. > :00:10.Hello, it's Monday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:11. > :00:21.This morning: is freedom of speech at British universities

:00:22. > :00:35.Hi, I'm Tom, a student in London - universities should be

:00:36. > :00:52.Hello, I'm Hannah. Identity we should shy away from debate.

:00:53. > :00:55.And this morning we won't be shying away from any debate.

:00:56. > :00:57.An exclusive survey for this programme suggests that most

:00:58. > :00:59.students support a controversial policy called "no-platforming"

:01:00. > :01:01.which aims to prevent people with views that might be offensive

:01:02. > :01:21.Hello, I am Peter Tatchell. And NUS officer refused to share a platform

:01:22. > :01:25.with me because she said I was transferred big and racist. When I

:01:26. > :01:28.asked for evidence, she could not find any.

:01:29. > :01:31.This morning we're joined by a group of 50 students from universities

:01:32. > :01:33.right around the UK, including members of the NUS,

:01:34. > :01:36.the National Union of Students - and by people who say they've been

:01:37. > :01:38.prevented from speaking at universities by the NUS.

:01:39. > :01:41.If you're a student, were a student once -

:01:42. > :01:44.do get in touch with your own views and we'll feed your experiences

:01:45. > :02:00.You can e-mail us, to eat or use the hashtag Victoria live.

:02:01. > :02:03.Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning.

:02:04. > :02:06.We'll bring you the news in a moment - but our debate this morning -

:02:07. > :02:08.is free speech at British universities under threat?

:02:09. > :02:14.Let's go for a quick unscientific snapshot of views -

:02:15. > :02:17.say yes or no loudly, if you feel worried that too

:02:18. > :02:19.many people are silenced and prevented from speaking

:02:20. > :02:32.OK, we'll delve deeper of course into those views with members

:02:33. > :02:34.of our audience who've joined us on the 7th floor here

:02:35. > :02:37.at the BBC but first a summary of today's news with Joanna.

:02:38. > :02:43.The High Street giant BHS is on the verge of collapse,

:02:44. > :02:47.Efforts to find a buyer for the retailer, which has been

:02:48. > :02:49.struggling with debts and a large pension deficit,

:02:50. > :02:53.BHS could go into administration as early as today -

:02:54. > :02:55.the biggest retail casualty since Woolworths eight years ago.

:02:56. > :03:03.It was once one on the biggest names to light up the High Street.

:03:04. > :03:05.But over the years, many customers have switched

:03:06. > :03:14.And now the future of BHS is in doubt.

:03:15. > :03:17.In a letter to staff obtained by the Mirror, Dominic Chapple,

:03:18. > :03:38.it's not always the strongest that survive, it's the ones that can

:03:39. > :03:41.adapt the quickest and I don't think BHS has adapted quickly enough to

:03:42. > :03:46.British Home Stores opened its first shop in Brixton in London in 1928.

:03:47. > :03:50.In the 1980s it merged with Mothercare

:03:51. > :03:57.And in 2000 Sir Philip Green paid ?200 million for BHS to be part

:03:58. > :04:04.But he wasn't able to turn the country around and sold it

:04:05. > :04:09.for ?1 to a little-known consortium called Retail Acquisitions.

:04:10. > :04:12.A year later the new owners have been unable to

:04:13. > :04:21.The company has debts and a large hole in its pension fund

:04:22. > :04:25.But some of that may be covered by a government-backed scheme.

:04:26. > :04:29.But how do shoppers feel about the once household name?

:04:30. > :04:31.It doesn't necessarily appeal to someone of my age,

:04:32. > :04:36.or even younger ones, it is stuck in a retail no man's land.

:04:37. > :04:42.I would miss it, I would definitely miss it.

:04:43. > :04:44.USDAW, the union that represents shop workers,

:04:45. > :04:47.says it is urging BHS to begin a dialogue

:04:48. > :04:50.with them and BHS staff now fear

:04:51. > :05:01.whether a once bright light on the high street is set to go out.

:05:02. > :05:10.We can go to Catriona Renton on Oxford Street in central London

:05:11. > :05:15.outside the PHS store there today. Is it opened today?

:05:16. > :05:23.The story is not due to open until 9:30am. We have heard that the

:05:24. > :05:29.company will go into administration at some point today. We have heard

:05:30. > :05:33.that Administration tas have been appointed, a company called Duff and

:05:34. > :05:38.Phelps. I have spoken to a number of people on their way into work this

:05:39. > :05:42.morning. Many of them very upset who did not want to speak. We did speak

:05:43. > :05:55.to a woman who has worked here as a shop assistant for 30 years. She

:05:56. > :05:58.said the only thing she has heard about this is what she has seen and

:05:59. > :06:01.read in the media. All of this have come as a shock to workers. 11,000

:06:02. > :06:03.people very anxious now about the future of their jobs. The

:06:04. > :06:08.administrator has been appointed. If they find a buyer, all well and

:06:09. > :06:13.good. If they do not then that could spell the collapse of BHS and it

:06:14. > :06:20.would be the biggest retail collapse since Walworth back in 2008, when

:06:21. > :06:25.30,000 people lost their jobs -- Woolworth. We are expecting a formal

:06:26. > :06:30.statement later to confirm what we have already been told this morning,

:06:31. > :06:38.that the company, British Home Stores, once one of the biggest

:06:39. > :06:41.names on the high Street, is to go into administration. 11,000 workers'

:06:42. > :06:48.jobs are at risk and they will be anxious to find out more. They will

:06:49. > :06:51.have an opportunity to speak to the management later today. Thank you.

:06:52. > :06:54.The government is considering proposals to avert a backbench

:06:55. > :06:55.rebellion over forcing all state schools in England

:06:56. > :06:57.to become academies - by allowing local councils

:06:58. > :07:01.The move comes amid mounting disquiet among some Conservative MPs

:07:02. > :07:04.and councils over plans to force schools to opt out of

:07:05. > :07:07.A group representing 37 largely Conservative local authorities has

:07:08. > :07:10.warned that there is a risk that turning all state schools

:07:11. > :07:15.into academies will fail to raise school standards.

:07:16. > :07:21.Our political guru Norman Smith is in Westminster for us.

:07:22. > :07:28.Is this a potential U-turn? I think it is indicative of the colossal

:07:29. > :07:34.pressure that Nicky Morgan the Education Secretary is now under.

:07:35. > :07:39.Not only from opposition parties but from Tory backbenchers, from

:07:40. > :07:44.Conservative run local councils, from Tory former Education Secretary

:07:45. > :07:47.'s and the Education Select Committee, absolutely huge, huge

:07:48. > :07:52.pressure. She is trying to find a way round this. What seems to be

:07:53. > :07:55.emerging as this compromise plan which would basically allow

:07:56. > :08:09.successful local authorities to say OK, we will become an academy, we do

:08:10. > :08:11.not have to cede control of our schools, we will set ourselves up as

:08:12. > :08:13.academies. The counteraccusations is what it sounds like, you will be

:08:14. > :08:17.rebranding local authorities, they will just call themselves academies.

:08:18. > :08:23.What Nicky Morgan's people say is not quite. This would only be open

:08:24. > :08:28.to the most successful education authorities. Secondly, schools would

:08:29. > :08:32.still have to want to opt in. It is no good school saying will become an

:08:33. > :08:36.Academy chain and no one opting in. The hope is this might avert

:08:37. > :08:46.potential result of Tory backbenchers. What will be critical

:08:47. > :08:50.as whether Nicky Morgan will put this in next month's Queen's Speech.

:08:51. > :08:55.It could be embroiled in a whole Euro row and people deciding to

:08:56. > :08:58.settle scores and vote against the changes. Thank you.

:08:59. > :09:00.The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, has warned that tomorrow's planned

:09:01. > :09:03.walkout by junior doctors in England will put patient safety at risk.

:09:04. > :09:06.If it goes ahead, it will be the first time in the history

:09:07. > :09:09.of the NHS that junior doctors have walked out of accident

:09:10. > :09:10.and emergency units, urgent maternity services

:09:11. > :09:14.13,000 scheduled operations have already been cancelled.

:09:15. > :09:16.The BMA says Mr Hunt should withdraw his threat to impose

:09:17. > :09:20.The Royal College of Surgeons has called for both sides

:09:21. > :09:27.Two thirds of students support certain groups and individuals

:09:28. > :09:30.being banned from speaking at student unions because of

:09:31. > :09:32.the opinions they hold - according to a survey commissioned

:09:33. > :09:36.Over the past few months there's been an increase in the number

:09:37. > :09:39.of people who've been told they can't speak at universities

:09:40. > :09:41.because of their views on topics like sexuality,

:09:42. > :09:54.The survey suggests that many students believe

:09:55. > :09:57.the National Union of Students is right to bar speakers, as part of

:09:58. > :10:07.its so-called "no platforming" policy.

:10:08. > :10:11.Do stay with us for that debate in the next few minutes.

:10:12. > :10:14.We'll be discussing this - and debating freedom of speech -

:10:15. > :10:17.with an audience of 50 students, as well as people who say

:10:18. > :10:21.The case for Britain remaining part of the European Union will be set

:10:22. > :10:24.Theresa May will say membership improves the UK's

:10:25. > :10:29.It comes in spite of previous criticism she has made about

:10:30. > :10:35.The Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, who is part of the Leave campaign,

:10:36. > :10:37.says the UK faces a migration "free-for-all" if it

:10:38. > :10:47.French police are investigating the death of a British man and two

:10:48. > :10:50.of his children in a car accident on a motorway near Dijon.

:10:51. > :10:53.A woman and a third child have been seriously injured.

:10:54. > :10:55.The family's car hit a safety barrier on the A39 motorway

:10:56. > :10:59.The police are looking into the possibility that the man

:11:00. > :11:05.Calls for older children to be routinely given the Meningitis B

:11:06. > :11:07.vaccine will be debated by MPs today.

:11:08. > :11:11.Campaigners want under-11s to be vaccinated

:11:12. > :11:14.as well as newborn babies, who are the most at-risk group.

:11:15. > :11:17.The government says that's not cost-effective.

:11:18. > :11:19.Helena Lee's report contains some images which viewers

:11:20. > :11:28.Faye Burdett, a healthy two-year-old before she contracted meningitis B.

:11:29. > :11:31.She struggled for 11 days with the disease in hospital.

:11:32. > :11:35.Her parents chose to release this photograph of her when she

:11:36. > :11:38.was extremely unwell, to raise awareness.

:11:39. > :11:41.Faye died on Valentine's Day this year.

:11:42. > :11:46.It was that image that helped push the disease into the spotlight

:11:47. > :11:49.and turn an online petition calling for all under 11s to be given

:11:50. > :11:54.the vaccine into the most popular petition in parliamentary history.

:11:55. > :12:01.Meningitis B is a rare virus but it can lead to death

:12:02. > :12:10.At the moment, babies under one are vaccinated against it

:12:11. > :12:18.The UK is the first country in the world to add the jab

:12:19. > :12:21.to its routine childhood vaccination programme.

:12:22. > :12:25.The government says it understands people's concerns but it has no

:12:26. > :12:29.plans to extend the programme to older children.

:12:30. > :12:31.Campaigners, though, hope today's debate will put

:12:32. > :12:37.pressure on MPs to agree that that needs to change.

:12:38. > :13:09.That is the summary of the news. More at 9:30am.

:13:10. > :13:17.On Facebook Keith says people are only allowed to speak if they share

:13:18. > :13:22.the same views. Who are the real fascists? There was a sharp intake

:13:23. > :13:26.of breath there. Another person says hypocrisy of

:13:27. > :13:33.students gagging and no-platforming people.

:13:34. > :13:39.Most students do support the idea of banning people who hold

:13:40. > :13:46.controversial views on subjects like race, rape, transgender issues, the

:13:47. > :13:59.Holocaust and others. Now the sport. I'll start this bulletin as I've

:14:00. > :14:02.started many in recent Now they're just five

:14:03. > :14:08.points from an historic Much was made of them

:14:09. > :14:11.being without their top scorer Jamie Vardy yesterday,

:14:12. > :14:13.who's serving a suspension. But they didn't seem to miss him too

:14:14. > :14:16.much, as they thumped Swansea 4-0. In fact, the man that replaced

:14:17. > :14:19.Vardy, Leo Ulloa, scored two So that puts Leicester eight

:14:20. > :14:23.points clear of Tottenham Also on the scoresheet

:14:24. > :14:28.for Leicester was Riyad Mahrez. The Algerian international has

:14:29. > :14:29.impressed all season, averaging a goal every other game,

:14:30. > :14:33.and last night he won the PFA The prize was presented to him

:14:34. > :14:36.by his boss, Claudio Ranieri. And because the ceremony

:14:37. > :14:39.was in London, just hours after the game, the Leicester

:14:40. > :14:41.players had to travel by helicopter Izzy Christensen of Man City

:14:42. > :14:56.won the women's award. Let's hear from Riyad Mahrez. I am

:14:57. > :15:04.happy. You are the first African player to win the award, that has

:15:05. > :15:10.got to be a great achievement? There were big players in the Premier

:15:11. > :15:16.League, Drogba never won it. It is an honour to be the first African.

:15:17. > :15:20.Not the best, but the first, so I am very happy!

:15:21. > :15:22.Crystal Palace will take on Manchester United in the FA

:15:23. > :15:27.It's a first final appearance in 26 years for Palace,

:15:28. > :15:30.He sealed the 2-1 win against Watford yesterday.

:15:31. > :15:33.The final is on the 21st May at Wembley.

:15:34. > :15:35.In Scotland, Celtic are close to a fifth

:15:36. > :15:43.straight Premiership title, but the fans aren't happy.

:15:44. > :15:48.Fans with banners, protesting against the club's board and the way

:15:49. > :15:52.This was ahead of yesterday's 1-1 draw at home to Ross County.

:15:53. > :15:55.Leigh Griffiths gave Celtic the lead with his 38th goal

:15:56. > :16:00.But just look at all those empty seats in the background.

:16:01. > :16:03.Stewart Murdoch equalised for County.

:16:04. > :16:06.Celtic are now nine points clear at the top, but their players left

:16:07. > :16:11.the field to boos and jeers from their supporters.

:16:12. > :16:13.Leicester's footballers look increasingly likely

:16:14. > :16:16.to win their first Premier League title, but the city's rugby union

:16:17. > :16:20.side failed in their attempt to reach the European Champions Cup

:16:21. > :16:23.final as they were beaten by French side Racing 92 in their semifinal

:16:24. > :16:29.The formidable boot of Dan Carter helped Racing to a 19-16 win

:16:30. > :16:32.and prevented an all-English final in Lyon on May 14th,

:16:33. > :16:42.with Saracens winning the other semifinal against Wasps.

:16:43. > :16:55.This morning - is free speech in British universities under threat?

:16:56. > :16:58.Over the last year or so, an increasing number of people have

:16:59. > :17:00.been told they can't speak at universities because of views

:17:01. > :17:03.they hold on issues like sexuality, transgenderism, race or rape.

:17:04. > :17:05.Officially it's called no-platforming - that's

:17:06. > :17:07.when a person or organisation is banned from speaking

:17:08. > :17:13.But many people and groups say they're being silenced in other ways

:17:14. > :17:16.- simply not being invited to speak, or making it almost impossible

:17:17. > :17:24.Last night, King's College, London withdrew an invitation

:17:25. > :17:26.for Boris Johnson to speak because of suggesting

:17:27. > :17:28.President Obama's "part-Kenyan" ancestry could have

:17:29. > :17:32.Supporters of "no-platforming" say universities should be places

:17:33. > :17:35.where students feel safe, and that the voices

:17:36. > :17:38.of the most vulnerable people should be prioritised.

:17:39. > :17:41.But critics say it's a violation of freedom of speech

:17:42. > :17:46.and is being used to oppress people with sometimes mainstream views.

:17:47. > :17:50.Richard Brooks is the vice-president of the National Union of Students.

:17:51. > :18:03.No, I don't think so at all. The NUS no-platformed policy was born out of

:18:04. > :18:10.the 1970s when fascists and racists came onto campuses. There are

:18:11. > :18:12.organisations on the no-platformed -esque, which is democratically

:18:13. > :18:20.decided at the conference every year, and it's all about making sure

:18:21. > :18:25.students feel safe. It's different to a safe space policy which is

:18:26. > :18:28.essential to the idea that everyone has freedom of speech, but some

:18:29. > :18:32.people have more equal rights than others and we are making sure the

:18:33. > :18:38.marginalised groups get their views heard. Both of those policies are

:18:39. > :18:42.democratically decided. They are progressive and sensible and are not

:18:43. > :18:45.part of the wider debate of censorship and freedom of speech

:18:46. > :18:48.that a lot of people use when their views are not necessarily given the

:18:49. > :18:54.platform they think they deserve. So not everyone does have freedom of

:18:55. > :19:04.speech? I think everyone does have freedom of speech, but the platforms

:19:05. > :19:08.are different. I don't think you could say you have no-platform, and

:19:09. > :19:14.then take out a 2-page spread in the new statesman saying you don't have

:19:15. > :19:21.a platform. We believe free speech is under threat from many

:19:22. > :19:29.directions. Personally I believe the NUS policies have have concrete

:19:30. > :19:39.effects on the no policy where these people cannot be challenged. It is

:19:40. > :19:47.undermining the circumstances, where we don't believe students from the

:19:48. > :19:54.best universities in the country have the ability to expose these

:19:55. > :19:59.views as fascist and on progressive. A quick point of clarity, in US

:20:00. > :20:04.no-platform policies for NUS if events. A lot of the things we might

:20:05. > :20:07.discuss today are decided on a critically but locally within

:20:08. > :20:11.student unions and the students there. The NUS doesn't have carte

:20:12. > :20:14.blanche to go to someone and say, you can't speak, certain campus.

:20:15. > :20:21.That's not our decision and we don't have that power. My name is Chelsea

:20:22. > :20:26.from city University. While student unions should have the ability to

:20:27. > :20:30.determine who they want to speak at their colleges, students should also

:20:31. > :20:37.have the ability to debate with who they want, and that's how you form

:20:38. > :20:40.your opinions about the world. My name is Ahmed, and I'm executive

:20:41. > :20:46.member of the Muslim student council. I think there are groups

:20:47. > :20:50.that promote fascist, racist and intolerant ideologies that would be

:20:51. > :20:55.damaging to student life and society at large. So it's right that some

:20:56. > :21:02.groups should be banned? What would be happen if they would be allowed

:21:03. > :21:09.to speak? I think it would put students at risk. I feel there could

:21:10. > :21:13.be a group that puts me at risk, so if I was running for Islamic Society

:21:14. > :21:20.president. If there was a neo-Nazi group, like National Action Centres

:21:21. > :21:24.Back Which Is No-platformed By The Nus, I Would Feel At That And My

:21:25. > :21:29.Security Is At Threat. As A Student I Would Rather Have The Opportunity

:21:30. > :21:32.To Challenge That Person In Person And Tell Them Why I Disagree With

:21:33. > :21:37.Their Opinions Rather Than Just Assume I Am A Victim, Or I Will Be

:21:38. > :21:45.Made Vulnerable By Their Presence. Applause

:21:46. > :22:03.As It Is, We Already Live In A Society Where A

:22:04. > :22:10.can we talk a bit about this nebulous idea of harm we are talking

:22:11. > :22:16.about? It should be specific. No-platforming in the 1970s was

:22:17. > :22:21.about preventing people coming onto campus who would cause fights and

:22:22. > :22:26.violence. We are now talking about harming a nonspecific way. What do

:22:27. > :22:32.you mean by harm? You say you could potentially be at risk. We have had

:22:33. > :22:38.cases at Kings College, for example a few months ago there were Muslims

:22:39. > :22:46.students who had their hijabs pulled off. That has not been highlighted.

:22:47. > :22:52.Groups with fascist and racist ideologies can cause

:22:53. > :22:57.life-threatening concerns. Students in the University of Birmingham who

:22:58. > :23:00.have National action students, who are not organised, but our

:23:01. > :23:06.spray-painting fascist ideologies across the university that need to

:23:07. > :23:08.be monitored. Over the next hour you could hear views that might be

:23:09. > :23:11.considered offensive. but it's important to hear some

:23:12. > :23:14.of those views in order to debate whether freedom of speech

:23:15. > :23:16.is actually under threat. As always, you can get in touch

:23:17. > :23:19.with us throughout the programme. All texts will be charged

:23:20. > :23:22.at the standard network rate. As you can see, we've got a group

:23:23. > :23:26.of around 50 students or so, as well as some individuals who say

:23:27. > :23:28.they've been silenced in one way or another

:23:29. > :23:30.by university student unions. Whether you're a student

:23:31. > :23:33.or not, this is a debate about the principle

:23:34. > :23:35.of freedom of speech And a Comres survey commissioned

:23:36. > :23:38.for this programme suggests that almost two thirds of students

:23:39. > :23:52.support the no-platform policy. Sarah has been no-platformed,

:23:53. > :23:57.because it means you are out of touch. Because two thirds of

:23:58. > :24:02.students in this survey back this no-platforming policy. I was

:24:03. > :24:08.no-platformed by one group, but I was then invited by another group.

:24:09. > :24:11.But no-platforming is intellectual cowardice, it's refusing to have a

:24:12. > :24:18.discussion. You heard what Ahmed said. There is violence and

:24:19. > :24:23.racialised violence against women, which is horrendous, but he said

:24:24. > :24:26.there was one particular speaker on campus who could have been prevented

:24:27. > :24:34.that would have been preventing that violence. You can't make the debate

:24:35. > :24:39.about preventing some people... You are preventing debate and failing to

:24:40. > :24:42.tackle the violence. I think when you call it intellectual cowardice

:24:43. > :24:46.because you believe in free speech, if you believe in it that much, why

:24:47. > :24:51.are you not in Liverpool demanding you can buy a copy of the Sun of an

:24:52. > :25:00.independent news agent customer that's a form of no-platforming as

:25:01. > :25:04.well. I'm a human rights campaigner. I think the intention behind

:25:05. > :25:08.no-platforming and safe space policies is often honourable and

:25:09. > :25:11.commendable, to protect weak and vulnerable students. That is fine.

:25:12. > :25:18.The way it's being widely interpreted, it has gone too far.

:25:19. > :25:21.Too far for who? Atheist, secular and humanist societies across the

:25:22. > :25:25.country have attempts to close down their meetings because some people

:25:26. > :25:32.find their challenge to organised religion offensive. The head of Hope

:25:33. > :25:37.not hate, the head of the antifascist and anti-racist

:25:38. > :25:42.organisation, a hero of the British left, there was an attempt to ban

:25:43. > :25:49.him from campuses because he was said to be anti-Muslim. He has never

:25:50. > :25:53.been that, but he did not advocate extremists. The fact they try to

:25:54. > :25:57.block him shows how this policy is completely and utterly wrong.

:25:58. > :26:02.Richard Brooks on the NUS is shaking his head. There is a difference, and

:26:03. > :26:07.this is something I would clearly like to say, there is absolutely a

:26:08. > :26:10.difference between no-platform, a democratically decide policy about

:26:11. > :26:15.organisations, and what has happened in a number of examples, including

:26:16. > :26:18.yours and Nick. Essentially there was a house party, you were not

:26:19. > :26:22.invited, and that has nothing to do with no-platforming, that was the

:26:23. > :26:25.fact there was a conversation happening and you were just not

:26:26. > :26:30.invited. It's not the same as no-platforming. But you are saying

:26:31. > :26:35.there is a culture of the silencing being extended. There was an attempt

:26:36. > :26:41.to specifically stop Nick from speaking out of a false Alex

:26:42. > :26:48.allegation that he was anti-Muslim. To treat a progressive left winger

:26:49. > :26:49.in this way from left-wing students is an abomination. It's not

:26:50. > :26:59.left-wing policies, it's McCarthyism. I'm a National student

:27:00. > :27:04.Officer for NUS. I was involved by business in the organising of the

:27:05. > :27:08.Arab conference. It's not true, not a single external organisation was

:27:09. > :27:11.involved in the organisation of the conference. Every singer person

:27:12. > :27:16.there was personally affected by racism or fascism, or was part of

:27:17. > :27:20.the NUS on it elected people stop not a single other person was

:27:21. > :27:25.invited to take part. To take it out of context, that just because an

:27:26. > :27:30.individual was not invited to an event, the NUS doesn't have the

:27:31. > :27:34.problem with them, is ludicrous. Nick is a man of great honour and

:27:35. > :27:42.integrity who has taken incredible personal risks against fascism and

:27:43. > :27:47.racism. I work for Hope not hate. I completely agree with Peter and what

:27:48. > :27:51.he's saying. From what we have understood, there was a discussion

:27:52. > :27:56.about Nick being Islamophobic, and some of the work of Hope not hate

:27:57. > :27:58.being Islamophobic. Everybody in the organisation found that incredibly

:27:59. > :28:04.offensive. There are different Aurtenetze ear. That argued there,

:28:05. > :28:12.if it is true, it is ludicrous and not worth debating, Nick is not

:28:13. > :28:15.Islamophobic. It was a specific antifascist tactic, which was a

:28:16. > :28:17.defence of freedom of speech, shutting down those who were

:28:18. > :28:24.attempting to get tail the freedoms of others. The terms fascism is used

:28:25. > :28:28.very widely, meaning it is used to broadly. It has also been

:28:29. > :28:31.extrapolated out to where we oppose people who are offensive. That was

:28:32. > :28:37.never the point of no-platforming or the antifascist policy. The policy

:28:38. > :28:50.was to defend freedom of speech and delegitimise those people who

:28:51. > :28:55.were... Spiked is an online magazine to campaign for Freedom of speech

:28:56. > :28:58.across University campuses. The idea that the NUS 's Democratic is

:28:59. > :29:03.frankly laughable. The main question I want to come back to,

:29:04. > :29:07.no-platforming being a specific thing and going to far. If you

:29:08. > :29:12.believe of freedom of speech, no-platforming always went too far.

:29:13. > :29:15.It's meant to be an indivisible liberty that is meant for all. To

:29:16. > :29:20.see people like Nick being at the sharp end of it, it's your own way

:29:21. > :29:23.is coming back to. Freedom of speech is for everyone, trusting students

:29:24. > :29:28.to be able to challenge views and take them on. The idea we are

:29:29. > :29:33.hearing today that students are so vulnerable, they are protected from

:29:34. > :29:38.fascists, and also from feminists, racists and sombreros, that is the

:29:39. > :29:43.legacy of the no-platforming... Sombreros? University of Birmingham

:29:44. > :29:48.and University of East Anglia banned them because they are apparently

:29:49. > :29:55.racist. Tom-tom you talked about the idea you are a sensitive flower and

:29:56. > :29:59.need to be protected. That's not what anybody saying. To address the

:30:00. > :30:03.point made about harm at the front. You're concerned about freedom of

:30:04. > :30:08.speech, it's never been an absolute right. Let's not pretend it has

:30:09. > :30:12.because that's frankly patronising. There are people who are incredibly

:30:13. > :30:20.vulnerable who feel very specific types of harm. Tell the family of

:30:21. > :30:23.trans people, the families of queer people who have committed suicide

:30:24. > :30:24.because of the likes of people who invalidate their identities like

:30:25. > :30:40.Julie. None of you have read anything that

:30:41. > :30:46.I have written. How dare you name me personally when you are talking

:30:47. > :30:52.about people committing suicide? How dare you! All I am saying is

:30:53. > :30:59.opinions you have expressed have invalidated the identities of trans

:31:00. > :31:11.women. That is a specific harm, Sarah, that you just dismissed. That

:31:12. > :31:20.is really dangerous to say... Let's pause for one second. Stop! Tom, you

:31:21. > :31:23.finish your sentence. There are people who frankly have fallen

:31:24. > :31:29.behind and unfortunately, despite the fact we are very appreciative of

:31:30. > :31:32.Peter Tatchell, and everything you have worked incredibly hard for, and

:31:33. > :31:37.nobody would deny that, however, that does not mean the you and

:31:38. > :31:41.others like you are removed from criticism.

:31:42. > :31:51.APPLAUSE Let them respond! Do introduce

:31:52. > :31:56.yourself. Nobody should be above criticism. I am Julie Bendall. I

:31:57. > :32:01.read an article 13 years ago in the Guardian for which ever more I have

:32:02. > :32:11.been a monster. I said in the article that it is not all right for

:32:12. > :32:14.a man to decide that he is a woman and go and counsel rape victims at

:32:15. > :32:17.an organisation where the actual service users said they felt

:32:18. > :32:24.uncomfortable with this trans person counselling them when they have been

:32:25. > :32:29.raped. That is beside the point. 13 years ago I wrote an article. I have

:32:30. > :32:34.been a feminist campaigner which has meant that I have avoided for many

:32:35. > :32:42.women real harm, and I am talking about rape and murder, not just the

:32:43. > :32:45.offence they may feel. For 36 years I have done this work. Don't be

:32:46. > :32:50.cross with me, we are going to the news because it is time and I will

:32:51. > :32:54.come back to you after the news and sport. We will hear more from Peter

:32:55. > :32:59.Tatchell, human rights campaigner who says he has potentially been

:33:00. > :33:03.silenced by students, and of course from Julie Bindel. First, Joanna

:33:04. > :33:07.with a summary of the news. The High Street giant BHS

:33:08. > :33:09.is on the verge of collapse, Efforts to find a buyer

:33:10. > :33:13.for the retailer, which has been struggling with debts and a large

:33:14. > :33:15.pension deficit, have BHS will go into

:33:16. > :33:25.administration this morning - the biggest retail casualty

:33:26. > :33:35.since Woolworths eight years ago. Our correspondent Catriona Renton is

:33:36. > :33:41.on Oxford Street. You said the store would be open at 9:30am. What has

:33:42. > :33:47.happened? The store has opened and we have seen a steady stream of

:33:48. > :33:52.people going in and out. We have heard in the last couple of hours

:33:53. > :33:56.that the company is going to go into administration, that the

:33:57. > :34:03.administrators have been appointed. It is a company called Duff and

:34:04. > :34:07.Phelps. We know there were attempts to get potential investors to sort

:34:08. > :34:12.out a financial deal, attempts to get Sports Direct to buy all or part

:34:13. > :34:17.of the company but that has failed. The business is going to go into

:34:18. > :34:22.administration. We will expect a formal announcement later today.

:34:23. > :34:27.That will leave the 11,000 workers across the UK stores feeling very

:34:28. > :34:31.anxious about their jobs. We spoke to some workers this morning. Some

:34:32. > :34:36.were too upset to speak. Others said all they have heard was what was in

:34:37. > :34:40.the media. They are looking for some clarity about what their futures

:34:41. > :34:44.will be. If the administrators fail to find a buyer that will mean the

:34:45. > :34:48.collapse of British Home Stores and that will be the end of trading for

:34:49. > :34:56.a company which has been working for the last 88 years, and it will be

:34:57. > :34:57.the biggest retail collapse since Woolworth in 2008 when 30,000 jobs

:34:58. > :35:13.were lost. Thank you. The government is considering

:35:14. > :35:15.proposals to avert a backbench rebellion over forcing all state

:35:16. > :35:17.schools in England to become academies -

:35:18. > :35:19.by allowing local councils The move comes amid mounting

:35:20. > :35:23.disquiet among some Conservative MPs and councils over plans to force

:35:24. > :35:26.schools to opt out of A group representing 37 largely

:35:27. > :35:29.Conservative local authorities has warned that there is a risk that

:35:30. > :35:31.turning all state schools into academies will fail

:35:32. > :35:39.to raise school standards. The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt,

:35:40. > :35:41.has warned that tomorrow's planned walkout by junior doctors in England

:35:42. > :35:44.will put patient safety at risk. If it goes ahead, it will be

:35:45. > :35:47.the first time in the history of the NHS that junior doctors have

:35:48. > :35:51.walked out of accident and emergency units,

:35:52. > :35:53.urgent maternity services 13,000 scheduled operations have

:35:54. > :35:56.already been cancelled. The BMA says Mr Hunt

:35:57. > :35:58.should withdraw his threat The Royal College of Surgeons has

:35:59. > :36:01.called for both sides Two thirds of students support

:36:02. > :36:13.certain groups and individuals being banned from speaking

:36:14. > :36:15.at student unions because of the opinions they hold -

:36:16. > :36:18.according to a survey commissioned The survey suggests that many

:36:19. > :36:22.students believe the National Union of Students is

:36:23. > :36:25.right to bar speakers, as part of its so-called "no platforming"

:36:26. > :36:33.policy. Yesterday, Kings College London

:36:34. > :36:45.withdrew the right for Boris Johnson to speak after he made about

:36:46. > :36:50.President Obama's Kenyan ancestry. Peter Tatchell has given his view.

:36:51. > :36:56.The way it has been reported, it has gone too far. Some 80 societies have

:36:57. > :37:03.had to close down their meetings because some people find the

:37:04. > :37:08.challenge to organised religion offensive. There are a number of

:37:09. > :37:13.examples where essentially there was a house party, you were not invited.

:37:14. > :37:16.That is nothing to do with no-platform, that is just there was

:37:17. > :37:21.a conversation happening about something and you were not invited

:37:22. > :37:25.to come. It is not the same as they know platform. If I wanted to run

:37:26. > :37:35.for a society president and I felt there was a group which might put me

:37:36. > :37:39.at risk, for example an Islamic society president, I will

:37:40. > :37:44.automatically feel at risk and my security is at threat. I would

:37:45. > :37:48.rather have the opportunity to challenge that person in person and

:37:49. > :37:51.tell them why I disagree with their opinions, rather than to assume I am

:37:52. > :37:56.a victim. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:37:57. > :38:07.News - more at 10:00. Chris has said university is a place

:38:08. > :38:12.to challenge views not shy away from the bait. Another person says safe

:38:13. > :38:15.space policies have gone too far. They have an awful future.

:38:16. > :38:22.More on this to come but first Jess with the sport.

:38:23. > :38:26.Leicester City are five points from an historic,

:38:27. > :38:32.They thrashed Swansea 4-0 yesterday, despite being without

:38:33. > :38:36.They're now eight points clear of Tottenham who play tonight.

:38:37. > :38:38.And the good news keeps coming for Leicester,

:38:39. > :38:41.their striker Riyad Mahrez has won the PFA Football of the Year Award.

:38:42. > :38:43.The Algerian international has impressed all season,

:38:44. > :39:02.He accepted the award from Claudio Ranieri. I am very happy. You are

:39:03. > :39:06.the first African player to win the award, that has got to be a great

:39:07. > :39:15.achievement as well? I did not know that. There were big players in the

:39:16. > :39:22.Premier League. Drogba never won it. Yahya. It is good to be the first

:39:23. > :39:30.African. Not the best, but the first, so I am very happy! Crystal

:39:31. > :39:39.Palace are through to the first FA Cup semifinal in 22 years.

:39:40. > :39:42.Connor Wickham scored the winning goal.

:39:43. > :39:44.Celtic are close to a fifth straight Premiership title.

:39:45. > :39:46.But ahead of their 1-1 draw with Ross County yesterday,

:39:47. > :39:49.the fans held up banners to show their anger at the club's

:39:50. > :39:51.board and how they're running the club.

:39:52. > :39:53.The bravest sporting performance of the weekend surely came

:39:54. > :39:56.from Kenya's Jemima Sumgong in the London Marathon She fell

:39:57. > :39:59.with four miles to go and cracked her head on the road

:40:00. > :40:04.No matter - Sumgong got back up, dusted herself down and came

:40:05. > :40:11.She admitted she was surprised to win.

:40:12. > :40:26.That is all the sport for now. I will be back at ten.

:40:27. > :40:32.Thank you, Jess. We want to discuss issues which various feminist

:40:33. > :40:36.commentators have made about transgender women. You may hear some

:40:37. > :40:40.views you do not agree with and they will be challenged. The point is not

:40:41. > :40:44.to talk about what they have said and the merits of their arguments,

:40:45. > :40:50.it is to debate whether or not they should be silenced for having those

:40:51. > :40:54.views. Julie Bindel was in full flow of defending herself when I rudely

:40:55. > :40:59.interrupted her to go to the news and sport. Do continue. I am a

:41:00. > :41:04.feminist campaigner and have been for 36 years. I speak at many

:41:05. > :41:09.universities in the UK and outside it, it usually always on violence

:41:10. > :41:13.against women and children. 13 years ago I wrote an article which some

:41:14. > :41:18.transgender activists took offence at and since then it has been

:41:19. > :41:24.witchhunt against me. I am no-platform to buy some committees

:41:25. > :41:28.in the NUS and I am constantly described as being like Hitler, I do

:41:29. > :41:35.know why. It is always Hitler and not some mid-range dictator. Are you

:41:36. > :41:40.offended? It is deeply offensive but we do not have the right not to be

:41:41. > :41:46.offended. I don't mind if students don't invite me. I do not get paid

:41:47. > :41:50.for it. Other students get fed up that I am not invited. I get more

:41:51. > :41:55.e-mails from feminist students and others who say we want to hear you

:41:56. > :42:00.express your views on how to end men's violence against women and

:42:01. > :42:06.children. This is in a context where I go to universities if the NUS do

:42:07. > :42:12.not know platform A. If they get out of bed on time, they picket and

:42:13. > :42:17.scream and shout. They have not read my article but they allow

:42:18. > :42:19.pornographers who are deeply misogynist and offensive

:42:20. > :42:23.walk-through, they allow Muslim clerics who believe in stoning women

:42:24. > :42:27.to death and in female genital mutilation and in all kinds of other

:42:28. > :42:34.human rights atrocities. They allow them on campus and I am banned by

:42:35. > :42:37.some of them. Why? We asked a number of trans students to come along

:42:38. > :42:43.today and they would not. They would not be in the same room as you.

:42:44. > :42:51.Payton quid did come along -- Payton Quinn. What would you like to say?

:42:52. > :42:58.Trans-students do feel they were targeted and it is fair to believe

:42:59. > :43:02.that and you accept your views were quite contentious and I understand

:43:03. > :43:08.what the purpose was of the original article goes you are highlighting

:43:09. > :43:14.violence against women and children and feeling unsafe. I assume you do

:43:15. > :43:24.not believe that trans women are equal to other women. You do not

:43:25. > :43:29.know my views. Do you think it is offensive to describe them as men in

:43:30. > :43:36.dresses or having a quick fix sex change? I know it causes offence. I

:43:37. > :43:41.find it offensive when I am likened to Hitler. The vile misogyny I have

:43:42. > :43:47.had levelled against me. There is no such thing as a safe space. What we

:43:48. > :43:50.need to do is talk to each other and find a way where we can progress the

:43:51. > :43:58.arguments. My argument is a feminist one which goes back to the 1960s

:43:59. > :44:02.which is there is no such thing as a female brain or a male brain and it

:44:03. > :44:11.is not the case that you like pink or blue. Can I paraphrase you saying

:44:12. > :44:19.that trans women are not bona fides women? I did not say that at all.

:44:20. > :44:22.Does the nature of the language that Julie Bindel has used over the years

:44:23. > :44:28.make you feel intimidated or threatened? This is where we need to

:44:29. > :44:33.talk about political correctness and bringing it back to the sense that

:44:34. > :44:41.it was first used in modern usage. Do you feel threatened? Personally,

:44:42. > :44:46.I den. I know other trans-people who feel threatened because that sort of

:44:47. > :44:50.language and attitudes are definitely mirrored within their

:44:51. > :44:55.personal lives. Threatened in what way? Their sense of identity. There

:44:56. > :45:00.are people I know who have been physically attacked because using

:45:01. > :45:08.some of the certain slurs against trans people, that they are not who

:45:09. > :45:12.they believe they are stopped but Wembley but they Julie Bindel's

:45:13. > :45:17.opinion is just another opinion? Yes, but it is an opinion that a

:45:18. > :45:24.number of people do not subscribe to and don't want to hear. But that is

:45:25. > :45:27.the nature of opinions. But when you talk about the scope of the debate,

:45:28. > :45:33.what you have to consider is the free market is considered by

:45:34. > :45:37.consumers. If a group of people do not want to hear that opinion they

:45:38. > :45:44.are free to do so. I get e-mails all the time, I do speak at lots of

:45:45. > :45:56.universities, by the way. But I get told all the time, it is when I --

:45:57. > :46:01.when the NUS have a stranglehold. Students are member of the NUS. You

:46:02. > :46:05.have not been no-platform to buy the NUS will stop if so I would not be

:46:06. > :46:11.able to be sat next to you right now.

:46:12. > :46:17.Student unions are collections of students based on values and

:46:18. > :46:20.no-platforming policies and safe space policies are decided

:46:21. > :46:24.democratically by students and student officers. I don't understand

:46:25. > :46:30.how this issue is up for debate around student unions, when it isn't

:46:31. > :46:33.around trade unions, and any other public sector, civil sector

:46:34. > :46:37.societies base, because people think they have the right to speak to

:46:38. > :46:43.students, and you don't. I don't believe that at all. Let me tell you

:46:44. > :46:49.that I think it was 2009, and repeated in 2011, the NUS LGBT

:46:50. > :46:59.caucus voted at their conference to no-platform me, and the motion read,

:47:00. > :47:02.Julie Bendall is vile. Is it a good thing to support the rights of

:47:03. > :47:08.minorities not to feel intimidated and threatened, which is what Caton

:47:09. > :47:12.says, some of her trans friends feel. I was a lesbian born into a

:47:13. > :47:19.working-class committee and I'm a feminist campaigner, so I constantly

:47:20. > :47:24.campaign against very dangerous under very dangerous circumstances.

:47:25. > :47:30.But you don't seem to support the rights of these minorities. Trans

:47:31. > :47:34.students. It's ridiculous, of course I support the rights of trans

:47:35. > :47:38.students not to be threatened, murdered, raped and harassed. It's

:47:39. > :47:43.ludicrous to suggest something I said about gender 13 years ago has

:47:44. > :47:50.resulted in the suicide of trans people, when men who do the

:47:51. > :47:55.attacking, are also attacking trans people. Those of us deemed different

:47:56. > :47:59.in society, such as myself as a lesbian and feminist, and I find it

:48:00. > :48:03.so offensive that you dare to say that I have been anyway provoked the

:48:04. > :48:17.suicide of trans women, and you did say that. It is true! Grow up! I'm

:48:18. > :48:22.the general secretary of the student union of Manchester. We did not

:48:23. > :48:27.no-platform Julie, but we didn't allow her to speak truly safe space

:48:28. > :48:32.policy. What does that mean? It's a policy that says in our building,

:48:33. > :48:35.the four walls we have in the student union, we want to make it

:48:36. > :48:43.acceptable for everyone, and also make sure that all voices, whether

:48:44. > :48:48.they are LGBT, disabled, black, trans, have a voice, because we know

:48:49. > :48:52.in society that they are marginalised and do not have a

:48:53. > :48:58.voice. That's the key thing. We don't live in a false bubble. Are

:48:59. > :49:06.you saying that by effectively silencing Julie, what you are doing

:49:07. > :49:12.is creating more freedom of speech for those minorities who might feel

:49:13. > :49:16.less confident or more vulnerable? Yes, because we stand on the stage

:49:17. > :49:19.and say that we should be there to challenge them, the power to

:49:20. > :49:34.challenge somebody who is a key notes to speaker sat behind the

:49:35. > :49:38.table, who is attacking somebody... We're not taking it out of context.

:49:39. > :49:42.These groups of students live in the real world where they are attacked,

:49:43. > :49:48.abused, on social media and physical abuse. We're not living in a bubble.

:49:49. > :49:51.It annoys me when you have middle-aged people on Twitter saying

:49:52. > :49:58.that we are ridiculous and stupid. That's very insulting. You are

:49:59. > :50:01.saying that this generation who have more progressive views than you are

:50:02. > :50:09.idiots because we don't think the same way. I don't agree with you, so

:50:10. > :50:15.I will use the space that I have and the autonomy our students have given

:50:16. > :50:18.us to govern it the way we want to. You will hear middle-aged people on

:50:19. > :50:21.Twitter say that the zoomable Ewenny get into the real world you will

:50:22. > :50:25.face extreme opinions that you will not like and you have to get on with

:50:26. > :50:30.it. There is not a safe space in the real world. That's ridiculous

:50:31. > :50:40.because we do live in a real world. We are creating what you want in our

:50:41. > :50:43.spaces. Peter Karmis you have campaigned for LGBT rights, and

:50:44. > :50:47.sometimes been beaten up for doing so, and over many years. He has

:50:48. > :50:54.signed a letter calling for greater freedom of speech on campuses. He

:50:55. > :51:02.has been accused of holding racist views. Peyton, as a student you felt

:51:03. > :51:09.the letter was trans-phobic. Can you tell Peter why. I'm not a student,

:51:10. > :51:14.but I can see why people can take that opinion, because there are a

:51:15. > :51:18.lot of people who you were talking about when you talked about

:51:19. > :51:22.no-platforming of certain individuals. There were a lot of

:51:23. > :51:26.people who were no-platformed for what some people believed were very

:51:27. > :51:31.important reasons. Why sign a letter calling for greater freedom of

:51:32. > :51:35.speech, why is that trans-phobic in itself? The problem is, it's looking

:51:36. > :51:40.at it from a wider viewpoint, the idea that you are supporting that

:51:41. > :51:45.students shouldn't be able to criticise or ask for a weight within

:51:46. > :51:50.the University. Whether you agree with that's what you do not, that's

:51:51. > :51:55.how people perceive it. The Observer I signed did not contain a single

:51:56. > :52:02.word of criticism of trans people, did not oppose trans equality, and

:52:03. > :52:11.did not incite harassment of those people. The people I named in those

:52:12. > :52:16.I disagree with on trans issues and disagree with them. I have

:52:17. > :52:27.criticised them. Could somebody read into that that you want activists,

:52:28. > :52:32.speakers, to be given platform that University who do not believe trans

:52:33. > :52:50.women are the... Is there anyone who does see it that

:52:51. > :52:55.way? The problem with some of the views that are put forward, they are

:52:56. > :52:59.very often described as, I'm just putting an idea out there. Usually

:53:00. > :53:03.the reason why people are no-platformed is because of the

:53:04. > :53:06.language they have used and the fact it is dehumanising. To pretend that

:53:07. > :53:13.doesn't happen is to ignore the entire 20th century. I totally agree

:53:14. > :53:18.that there are views of anti-trans activists that are offensive and

:53:19. > :53:22.wrong, and I have criticised them. I debated against Julie on Radio 4.

:53:23. > :53:25.Some people say that I won that debate. That wouldn't have happened

:53:26. > :53:31.if we said that Julie just couldn't speak. On the other point, even

:53:32. > :53:36.though I say that people should have the freedom to speak, I think all

:53:37. > :53:40.baguettes should be protested and challenged. I supported protests

:53:41. > :53:49.against Jermaine Greer and others. But Jermaine Greer is not a bigot.

:53:50. > :53:52.She might have used the views you disagree with but she is not a

:53:53. > :53:58.bigot. She spent her life fighting for equality. I supported a protest

:53:59. > :54:02.against her. I don't think people with offensive views should be given

:54:03. > :54:05.a free pass. They should be protest against an challenged, and the best

:54:06. > :54:11.way to do that is through open debate. If you censor people and ban

:54:12. > :54:14.them, and get suppressed, the ideas are not defeated. Who agrees that if

:54:15. > :54:16.you censor people or ban them, the idea gets suppressed and that is not

:54:17. > :54:33.as a surly a good thing Eastham? One of the things we have moved away

:54:34. > :54:37.from is that this is a university. It's not the real world, but it's

:54:38. > :54:42.the place where you would expect to hear dangerous ideas and not be

:54:43. > :54:46.frightened of them, people would go into thinking you feel vulnerable

:54:47. > :54:50.and you will feel uncomfortable, vulnerable, and everything will be

:54:51. > :54:55.scary. Because ideas that have changed the world historically over

:54:56. > :55:00.many years, have fought racism, got us equality, they were offensive,

:55:01. > :55:05.dangerous and scary to those people who heard them. Somebody said that

:55:06. > :55:10.maybe it's because I'm middle-aged. I actually think that's insulting

:55:11. > :55:13.your generation. There are many young people at universities who are

:55:14. > :55:20.walking round on eggshells because there is a broader climate off, you

:55:21. > :55:24.can't say that. You try to say some thing that goes against the line,

:55:25. > :55:28.it's not just no-platformed, it's a broader sense or is climate where

:55:29. > :55:31.people genuinely think, if I say that, I will be cold trans-phobic,

:55:32. > :55:40.Islamophobic, any number of phobic Coral. That climate in universities

:55:41. > :55:46.is the betrayal of a generation. If you are a victim, calling out saying

:55:47. > :55:50.you can't cope, it's actually positive, you are behaving just like

:55:51. > :55:57.children, and what's worse is that the safety first cult, you got told

:55:58. > :56:01.by teachers to be scared of everything, I'm saying to grow up,

:56:02. > :56:06.the world is scary, but it's much more fun if you go out and have a

:56:07. > :56:11.good time and fight it. Who disagrees with Claire and wants to

:56:12. > :56:16.talk to her about it? You say that ideas that have changed the world in

:56:17. > :56:21.the past and people have been scared of them, isn't no-platforming one of

:56:22. > :56:27.those ideas? The good thing about no-platform is that it simply just

:56:28. > :56:31.stops you hearing things. If you don't want to hear things... I don't

:56:32. > :56:35.know how any of us would make our minds up. I don't know how you would

:56:36. > :56:38.know you don't agree with me, or I would know what I think about

:56:39. > :56:43.no-platform unless I hear the views of it. That's the irony of this

:56:44. > :56:46.conversation. How will we work out what we think about anything? Don't

:56:47. > :56:52.you possibly believe you might change your mind? As an older

:56:53. > :56:56.person... I know that I have changed my mind loads of times. Because

:56:57. > :57:01.somebody had the courage to look me in the eyes and tell me I was all

:57:02. > :57:07.the well wrong. I thought, oh my God, what will I do. I read the odd

:57:08. > :57:10.book, thought about it, felt uncomfortable, and changed my mind,

:57:11. > :57:17.and I'm sure I will do again. That's why you need free speech. Lots of

:57:18. > :57:20.people want to come back to you and we will get to them because we have

:57:21. > :57:25.plenty of time this morning. An e-mail from Michael at Lancaster

:57:26. > :57:28.University, who disagrees with the idea of no-platforming. Regardless

:57:29. > :57:33.of your individual opinions, universities should be a place where

:57:34. > :57:37.opinions are heard and debated in an open forum. Freedom of speech is

:57:38. > :57:42.being undermined and I don't believe the NUS is representative of the

:57:43. > :57:45.vast majority of students. Heather says, these poor delicate flowers

:57:46. > :57:52.will find it difficult to deal with the real world. I suggest students

:57:53. > :58:00.study history to find what hiding 1's head in the sand can do. Vicky

:58:01. > :58:04.says that the idea that trans-women being referred to as men is

:58:05. > :58:12.outdated. Peter says that the debate this morning is I opening. We have

:58:13. > :58:15.achieved something, this morning. Lots more discussion to come. News

:58:16. > :58:21.and sport in a second, but the weather before that.

:58:22. > :58:28.Weather watchers have been doing us proud. The variety of weather across

:58:29. > :58:32.the UK. We have had snow showers across Aberdeenshire. Beautiful

:58:33. > :58:35.start to the day across Cumbria. Wonderful sunrise with showers

:58:36. > :58:40.across Cumbria and Lancashire. A picture from Cornwall with a lot of

:58:41. > :58:47.cloud around but it will thin and break through the day. Where we have

:58:48. > :58:51.had showers this morning in England and Wales, particularly in Central

:58:52. > :58:56.and western areas. Showers across northern Scotland and this line is a

:58:57. > :59:01.weather front. As it comes south the colder air will filter in behind it.

:59:02. > :59:05.It will be rather windy. The proximity of isobars across the

:59:06. > :59:10.Northern Isles. Looking at gusts to gale force coming from the north and

:59:11. > :59:15.accentuate in the cold feel. Through the day the rain will push south.

:59:16. > :59:22.Looking at gusty winds across Scotland. A mixture of rain, sleet

:59:23. > :59:25.and snow at lower levels as well, across the Highlands and Grampians.

:59:26. > :59:30.Across southern Scotland, northern England and Ireland, bright sunny

:59:31. > :59:34.spells but with the odd shower and still windy. The weather front

:59:35. > :59:39.continuing southwards, taking showers with it. But it will dry out

:59:40. > :59:44.across Wales and south-west England and if you stay out of the wind, it

:59:45. > :59:50.will not feel too bad. As we go through the evening and overnight,

:59:51. > :59:51.it's still windy down the north-east coastline and three Scotland.

:59:52. > :59:57.Looking at blizzards in the mountains. Some showers filtering

:59:58. > :00:01.down toward East Anglia but move away from that and you are back to

:00:02. > :00:06.colder conditions and clearer skies. We are looking at some frost. Where

:00:07. > :00:09.you have frost and clearer skies, tomorrow morning is where we will

:00:10. > :00:13.start with sunshine. Still blizzard conditions across the Highlands and

:00:14. > :00:19.Grampians. Wintry showers getting down towards East Anglia and into

:00:20. > :00:24.East Anglia. And it is very gusty, eccentric in the cold feel. Move out

:00:25. > :00:29.towards the west, we look at a mixture of sunshine and showers.

:00:30. > :00:33.Even in areas exposed to northerly or north-westerly wind, we could see

:00:34. > :00:37.a wintry component in those showers. Tomorrow will feel colder than

:00:38. > :00:44.today. As we head into Wednesday, it the eye so bores are starting to

:00:45. > :00:53.swing around so we are looking at something more northerly and

:00:54. > :00:57.westerly. -- the isobars. The impact on the temperature, for the rest of

:00:58. > :01:02.the week it will remain cold. You can tell that by looking at the

:01:03. > :01:06.blue. Heading towards the weekend, something less cold coming our way,

:01:07. > :01:12.but it will not be mild. For the week ahead, it will stay chilly,

:01:13. > :01:14.sunshine with blustery showers, and the risk of frost overnight

:01:15. > :01:18.continues. Hello, it's Monday it's 10,

:01:19. > :01:20.I'm Victoria Derbyshire, This morning: is freedom

:01:21. > :01:43.of speech at Free speech is supposed to be for

:01:44. > :01:50.everyone. That means trusting students, challenging views. But

:01:51. > :01:56.what we have heard that they are so vulnerable, they have to be

:01:57. > :02:01.protected from fascists but also racists and some brow rose. That is

:02:02. > :02:06.not what anyone is saying. You are concerned about your freedom of

:02:07. > :02:11.speech. That has never been an absolute right and let's not pretend

:02:12. > :02:17.it has. That is patronising, frankly. A survey suggests most

:02:18. > :02:27.students support a controversial policy known as no-platform in which

:02:28. > :02:34.-- no-platforming. I find it offensive when I am likened to

:02:35. > :02:39.Hitler. The vile misogyny I have had levelled at me. There is no such

:02:40. > :02:44.thing as a safe space. What we need to do is talk to each other. We have

:02:45. > :02:48.also heard from people who in the past who say they have been

:02:49. > :02:56.silenced. We do live in the real world. We know there is not a safe

:02:57. > :02:59.space. We are trying to create safe places.

:03:00. > :03:02.For the next hour, we're joined by a group of 50 students

:03:03. > :03:03.from universities right around the UK, including members

:03:04. > :03:07.of the NUS, the National Union of Students - and by people who say

:03:08. > :03:09.they've been prevented from speaking at universities by the NUS.

:03:10. > :03:11.If you're a student, were a student once -

:03:12. > :03:15.do get in touch with your own views and we'll feed your experiences

:03:16. > :03:34.Sorry, we played some music over you then but if you want to get in

:03:35. > :03:38.touch, it you can on Twitter. Now it is time for the news with Joanna.

:03:39. > :03:44.The High Street giant BHS is on the verge of collapse,

:03:45. > :03:48.Efforts to find a buyer for the clothing and homeware chain,

:03:49. > :03:50.which has been struggling with debts and a large pension deficit,

:03:51. > :03:53.BHS, which has 164 stores, will go into administration

:03:54. > :03:57.It's the biggest retail casualty since Woolworths eight years ago.

:03:58. > :03:59.Our correspondent Sophie Long is on Oxford Street

:04:00. > :04:17.This BHS is open and you would be forgiven for thinking it is business

:04:18. > :04:21.as usual. We know it is not and the company will go into administration

:04:22. > :04:26.and we are expecting a formal announcement later this morning. The

:04:27. > :04:30.man who owns the BHS said in a letter to his 11,000 staff that he

:04:31. > :04:34.was sincerely sorry and that they would be paid their wages this

:04:35. > :04:39.month. That will come as little compensation for people who work

:04:40. > :04:48.here. With respect to one lady who has worked here for 30 years and she

:04:49. > :04:51.said she was devastated and she said they had had very little

:04:52. > :04:57.communication from management. We know that BHS is likely to go into

:04:58. > :04:59.administration later this morning. Thank you.

:05:00. > :05:01.Plans to allow local councils to form their own academies

:05:02. > :05:03.are being considered by the government.

:05:04. > :05:05.It's to avert a backbench rebellion over forcing all state schools

:05:06. > :05:09.The move comes amid mounting disquiet among some Conservative MPs

:05:10. > :05:12.and councils over plans to force schools to opt out of

:05:13. > :05:16.A group representing 37 largely Conservative local authorities has

:05:17. > :05:19.warned that there is a risk that turning all state schools

:05:20. > :05:23.into academies will fail to raise school standards.

:05:24. > :05:26.And Labour says allowing councils to run their own academy chains

:05:27. > :05:29.would still amount to a 'costly upheaval for thousands

:05:30. > :05:35.Government sources have launched a scathing attack on junior doctors'

:05:36. > :05:37.leaders in England - accusing them of trying to secure

:05:38. > :05:40.the dismissal of health secretary Jeremy Hunt,

:05:41. > :05:42.and staging 'a political strike' tomorrow.

:05:43. > :05:46.If it goes ahead, it will be the first time in the history

:05:47. > :05:50.of the NHS that junior doctors have walked out of accident

:05:51. > :05:53.and emergency units, urgent maternity services

:05:54. > :06:01.13,000 scheduled operations have already been cancelled.

:06:02. > :06:04.The BMA says Mr Hunt should withdraw his threat

:06:05. > :06:07.Nearly two-thirds of university students believe the National Union

:06:08. > :06:10.of Students is right to have a "no platforming" policy, a survey

:06:11. > :06:16.The policy means people or groups on a banned list because of

:06:17. > :06:18.the opinions they hold on topics such as sexuality,

:06:19. > :06:21.transgender issues and race - are not given a platform

:06:22. > :06:24.to speak at student unions across the country.

:06:25. > :06:32.Yesterday, King's College London withdrew its invitation

:06:33. > :06:42.The feminist campaigner Julie Bindel has been no-platform after an

:06:43. > :06:51.article she wrote. She has been likened to Hitler. They allow

:06:52. > :06:56.misogynist Sue walk-through, they allow Muslim clerics who believe in

:06:57. > :07:01.stoning gays to death and female genital mutilation. They allow them

:07:02. > :07:05.on campus and I am banned by some of them. We have to remember that

:07:06. > :07:15.student unions are collectives of students based on values and no safe

:07:16. > :07:18.spaces -- and that safe spaces are decided democratically by students

:07:19. > :07:24.and officers. I don't understand why this debate is up around student

:07:25. > :07:29.unions when it is not around trade unions, just because people think

:07:30. > :07:36.they have the right to speak to students. No, I don't. The way it

:07:37. > :07:40.has been widely interpreted, it has gone too far. Atheist, secular and

:07:41. > :07:45.humanist Society are having attempts to close down their meetings because

:07:46. > :07:52.some people find their challenge to organised religion offensive. There

:07:53. > :07:55.is absolutely a difference between no-platform, Democratic policy and

:07:56. > :07:59.what has happened from a number of examples which have been given which

:08:00. > :08:03.is essentially, there was a house party, you were not invited. That is

:08:04. > :08:07.nothing to do with no-platform, that is that there was a conversation

:08:08. > :08:09.about something happening and you were not invited to come so it is

:08:10. > :08:23.not the same as a no-platform. The case for Britain remaining part

:08:24. > :08:26.of the European Union will be set Theresa May will say

:08:27. > :08:30.membership improves the UK's It comes in spite of previous

:08:31. > :08:33.criticism she has made about The Justice Secretary, Michael Gove,

:08:34. > :08:38.who is part of the Leave campaign, says the UK faces a migration

:08:39. > :08:40."free-for-all" if it Calls for older children to be

:08:41. > :08:44.routinely given the Meningitis B vaccine will be debated

:08:45. > :08:45.by MPs today. Campaigners want under-11s

:08:46. > :08:47.to be vaccinated as well as newborn babies,

:08:48. > :08:49.who are the most at-risk group. The government says that's

:08:50. > :08:51.not cost-effective. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:08:52. > :09:05.News - more at 10.30. Thank you. A comment from Shelley.

:09:06. > :09:09.Lots of National Union of Students leaders sharing a platform with

:09:10. > :09:14.Peter Tatchell and Julie Bindel. What no-platform? Trans people are

:09:15. > :09:20.attacked by people who are quoting Julie Bindel and by black people

:09:21. > :09:25.quoting Enoch Powell. Give neither airtime. A tweet from Clare says

:09:26. > :09:31.Julie Bindel comes across well. Other people have tantrum like

:09:32. > :09:38.views, yes, I am middle-aged. And this comment from Jackie says it

:09:39. > :09:42.is ridiculous to suggest Julie Bindel attacks minorities.

:09:43. > :09:44.More on this to come but first Jess with the sport.

:09:45. > :09:47.It's becoming a familiar story these days, Leicester City have won again.

:09:48. > :09:49.Now, they're just five points from an historic, first

:09:50. > :09:53.Much was made of them being without their top scorer

:09:54. > :09:54.Jamie Vardy yesterday, who's serving a suspension.

:09:55. > :09:57.But they didn't seem to miss him too much,

:09:58. > :10:00.In fact, the man that replaced Vardy, Leo Ulloa

:10:01. > :10:04.So that puts Leicester eight points clear of Tottenham,

:10:05. > :10:10.Also on the scoresheet for Leicester was Riyad Mahrez.

:10:11. > :10:13.The Algerian international has impressed all season,

:10:14. > :10:16.averaging a goal every other game, and last night he won the PFA

:10:17. > :10:21.The prize was presented to him by his boss Claudio Ranieri.

:10:22. > :10:23.And because the ceremony was in London, just hours

:10:24. > :10:26.after the game, the Leicester players had to travel by helicopter

:10:27. > :10:33.Tottenham's Dele Alli was voted the young player of the year -

:10:34. > :10:40.and Izzy Christensen of Man City won the women's award.

:10:41. > :10:51.I am happy. You are the first African player to win the award,

:10:52. > :10:58.that has got to be a great achievement as well? I didn't know

:10:59. > :11:07.that. There were big players in the Premier League, African. Drogba

:11:08. > :11:10.never won it. The IR. -- Yahya will stop I am not the best, but the

:11:11. > :11:12.first, so I am very happy! Crystal Palace are in their first FA

:11:13. > :11:19.Cup Final for 26 years. They beat Watford 2-1 yesterday,

:11:20. > :11:22.thanks to this man Conor Wickham They'll play Manchester United

:11:23. > :11:28.in the final In Scotland, Celtic are close

:11:29. > :11:32.to a fifth straight Premiership Fans protested before their game

:11:33. > :11:36.yesterday, at the way the board This was ahead of their 1-1 draw

:11:37. > :11:41.at home to Ross County. Leigh Griffiths gave Celtic

:11:42. > :11:43.the lead with his 38th goal But just look at all those empty

:11:44. > :11:48.seats in the background. Stewart Murdoch equalised for

:11:49. > :11:50.County. Celtic are now nine points clear

:11:51. > :11:54.at the top, but their players left the field to boos and jeers

:11:55. > :11:57.from their supporters. Britain's Anthony Joshua will make

:11:58. > :12:02.the first defence of his IBF world heavyweight champion

:12:03. > :12:05.against unbeaten American Joshua won the title

:12:06. > :12:08.from another American, Charles Martin last month

:12:09. > :12:11.and will face Brazeel on June 25th Brazeel was beaten in the first

:12:12. > :12:17.round of the London 2012 Olympics. Joshua went on to win

:12:18. > :12:21.the gold medal. The bravest sporting performance

:12:22. > :12:32.of the weekend surely came from Kenya's Jemima Sumgong

:12:33. > :12:34.in the London Marathon. She fell with four miles to go

:12:35. > :12:38.and cracked her head on the road No matter - Sumgong got back up,

:12:39. > :12:42.dusted herself down and came She admitted she was

:12:43. > :12:50.surprised to win. I think a few other people might

:12:51. > :12:52.have been surprised as well! That is all the sport for now.

:12:53. > :12:55.Thank you, Jessica. Good morning and welcome to

:12:56. > :13:00.the programme. This morning, we're asking

:13:01. > :13:04.whether free speech in British universities under

:13:05. > :13:15.threat? I don't think we have got anywhere

:13:16. > :13:19.near answering that question. So far we have heard one students say that

:13:20. > :13:23.potentially their physical safety could be at risk. They could be

:13:24. > :13:28.threatened if offensive speakers are allowed to take a platform at the

:13:29. > :13:32.University. We have also heard from others who say if you cannot hear

:13:33. > :13:40.from challenging, scary views and debate though that University, than

:13:41. > :13:43.where can you? With us is a group of around 50 students and people who

:13:44. > :13:45.say they have been silenced by student unions because they hold

:13:46. > :13:49.views which others they are offensive. Don't we have the right

:13:50. > :13:57.to hold offensive views and the right to be offended by them. Would

:13:58. > :14:01.we agree with that? Tom Scott from the University of Essex. We surveyed

:14:02. > :14:06.a representative sample of the British public on whether to ban

:14:07. > :14:10.them or not ban them from UK campuses. 75% of the UK public

:14:11. > :14:15.wanted to ban at least one speaker. The problem is they all differed on

:14:16. > :14:18.which speaker to ban. Once you go down that road used at getting into

:14:19. > :14:25.fights. We have heard that today, I want to ban the Speaker, I want to

:14:26. > :14:30.ban that speaker. It becomes a ban first rather than an absolute. Your

:14:31. > :14:37.survey was across the British public. Our survey was specifically

:14:38. > :14:43.opt on 2000 British students. Two thirds of them supported the NUS

:14:44. > :14:47.no-platforming policy. We gave ten specific examples and at least 75%

:14:48. > :14:51.wanted to ban one or more of the speakers but they wanted to ban

:14:52. > :14:57.different speakers. Some wanted to ban climate change deniers, others

:14:58. > :15:00.wanted to ban Islamic clerics, others ambassadors. I think part of

:15:01. > :15:11.this is with UK law being very unclear. On one hand you have the

:15:12. > :15:15.education act of night in 86 we have the education act of 1986

:15:16. > :15:20.guaranteeing free speech but then there is another present agenda. It

:15:21. > :15:33.is totally contradictory. The 1986 act enshrined is free

:15:34. > :15:37.speech, the right to freedom of speech, giving universities and

:15:38. > :15:43.obligation. Apologies for butchering that a little bit. But then a number

:15:44. > :15:49.of other legislation is seen to say, wait, not this speaker, wait, you

:15:50. > :15:55.have to do... Prevent is the government programme to take

:15:56. > :16:01.extremists out of society and re-educate them. People who are

:16:02. > :16:05.defined as extremists by the government. That's the crux of the

:16:06. > :16:10.debate, who do we define as extremists? Students say one thing,

:16:11. > :16:14.governments might say another, it's dependent on your point of view who

:16:15. > :16:21.is an extremist. You have to take more of an absolute position. We

:16:22. > :16:24.will talk more about Prevent. We can look at the history of

:16:25. > :16:26.no-platforming at universities which goes back to 1974 when it was first

:16:27. > :16:28.introduced. It was inspired in part

:16:29. > :16:30.by the rise of racist groups like the National Front

:16:31. > :16:33.and by the Conservative MP Enoch Powell who'd given a speech

:16:34. > :16:36.in the late 60s - which became known as the "rivers of blood" speech -

:16:37. > :16:39.which was anti immigration We must be mad -

:16:40. > :18:21.literally mad - as a nation. In total six groups

:18:22. > :18:22.are officially banned. They include the British National

:18:23. > :18:25.Party, the English Defence League, Hizb Ut-Tahir - a radical Islamist

:18:26. > :18:27.group which supports the introduction of a caliphate,

:18:28. > :18:29.an Islamic state, in the Muslim world; and a group called the Muslim

:18:30. > :18:34.Public Affairs Committee - a civil liberties group with a focus

:18:35. > :18:44.on non-violent jihad, or struggle. We wanted to hear from MPAC today

:18:45. > :18:48.and they were willing to join us - but the National Union of Students

:18:49. > :18:50.won't debate with or appear alongside one

:18:51. > :18:52.of the groups they've banned. We asked if they would leave

:18:53. > :18:55.the room whilst we spoke to MPAC but they said they wouldn't appear

:18:56. > :18:58.on the same programme as them. Richard Brooks -

:18:59. > :19:14.vice-president of the NUS When we originally agreed to the

:19:15. > :19:19.debate two months ago, the first time any member of staff at the NUS

:19:20. > :19:27.was aware ten threw would be around was late on Friday. We have

:19:28. > :19:31.democratically decided a policy of no-platforming at the National

:19:32. > :19:35.conference, the names of those six organisations, it says we cannot

:19:36. > :19:39.sure a platform with them, or debate with them because there views are

:19:40. > :19:46.seen as offensive and extremist. That's our policy. What is it about

:19:47. > :19:51.MPAC? I can't remember exactly when they were originally decided to be

:19:52. > :19:57.part of the no-platform policy. It was 2004. I imagine it was because

:19:58. > :20:01.they were seen as threatening or dangerous to a nub of students on

:20:02. > :20:06.campus, probably Jewish students. They have been accused of being

:20:07. > :20:14.anti-Semitic and extremist. They say they reject that absolutely. They

:20:15. > :20:18.say to lump them in with with other extremist groups is totally unfair

:20:19. > :20:22.because they are not extremist at all. They would love the chance to

:20:23. > :20:26.talk to you or anyone else from the NUS to explain why they feel they

:20:27. > :20:30.have been smeared, and that the ban is totally unfair. Nick Griffin

:20:31. > :20:38.doesn't think he's an extremist either. Anyone who you put forward

:20:39. > :20:45.that their views are extreme in some way, they would say they are normal

:20:46. > :20:51.speakers of the ordinary people. Nick Griffin was on question Time. I

:20:52. > :20:58.watched it. Do you know what happened to the BNP vote after that?

:20:59. > :21:02.Before they are at they had about 240,000 votes, and after it went

:21:03. > :21:03.down to about 20 4000. What do you think of that? The fact the support

:21:04. > :21:25.collapsed. -- 20 4000. If -- 24000. I want to defend the NUS policy of

:21:26. > :21:30.no-platform. I specifically think the aim of the policy is to stop

:21:31. > :21:34.organising fascists and racists from being on campus. The reason we have

:21:35. > :21:39.this is because when they came onto campus from the 1970s to the 1990s,

:21:40. > :21:47.they attacked officers and students on campus. Bringing up the point of

:21:48. > :21:52.Nick Griffin, I think specifically for fascist, and although I like the

:21:53. > :21:55.BBC, I think it's a mass campaigning by students and the NUS against

:21:56. > :21:59.making sure people turned out to vote against Nick Griffin, that

:22:00. > :22:06.broke the back of what he did. Also that organisation didn't build. In

:22:07. > :22:13.France, the Front National, the sister organisation of the BNP,

:22:14. > :22:17.there is no no-platforming policy in France, and Marine Le Pen is

:22:18. > :22:22.threatening to become a very powerful person. We should defend

:22:23. > :22:27.the no-platform policy in Britain. Are there people here who believe

:22:28. > :22:32.that no group, irrespective of their views, no group should be banned

:22:33. > :22:39.from speaking at universities. Yes? I'm a student at Kings College. It's

:22:40. > :22:46.interesting the NUS keep saying they are a democratic organisation. They

:22:47. > :22:49.were elected with less than 0.01%... Can I bring you back to the point,

:22:50. > :22:57.why you think no group should be banned. I think their thoughts

:22:58. > :23:00.should be challenged. When you have groups like the NUS who are elected

:23:01. > :23:07.by so few people, who decides what can be said. Who's making those

:23:08. > :23:10.decisions? You would want to see Islamic extremists speak at

:23:11. > :23:15.university? I would like to see them challenged. Maybe don't invite them,

:23:16. > :23:19.but they shouldn't be stopped from coming. If a society wants them,

:23:20. > :23:24.that's fair enough and we should challenge those views. I'm a

:23:25. > :23:31.graduate from the University of Liverpool. Just a couple of comments

:23:32. > :23:35.about the NUS representatives who say it's nothing to do with us, we

:23:36. > :23:40.didn't banned those organisations, it was the individual unions. They

:23:41. > :23:43.support the safe space Wallasey that facilitates the culture around the

:23:44. > :23:50.country on campuses of banning several different speakers,

:23:51. > :23:55.progressive speakers, feminists, and it facilitates that culture. The

:23:56. > :24:02.idea of safe spaces, the idea of campuses being safe spaces... Why in

:24:03. > :24:06.inverted commas? They will never create a safe space everyone, there

:24:07. > :24:11.will always be different opinions, but what it says is that outside

:24:12. > :24:16.campus, the rest of society is unsafe and dangerous. They are views

:24:17. > :24:20.we should not engage with. Ukip, three million-plus votes in a

:24:21. > :24:24.general election. Our student union say that we don't speak to you, you

:24:25. > :24:31.are xenophobes and racist. That will not change things. It will not

:24:32. > :24:38.change wider society, it will be a self-righteous cocoon that will not

:24:39. > :24:43.change a thing. I work for index on censorship, a free expression group.

:24:44. > :24:47.We spend a lot of time during this debate on using words that people

:24:48. > :24:52.seem to have different definitions about, so when we say no-platform or

:24:53. > :24:57.safe space, or even harm, one of the problems is that there has been an

:24:58. > :25:01.ever expanding definition of what is harmful, or what causes threats or

:25:02. > :25:06.is threatening. People who actively inside violence, and where there is

:25:07. > :25:13.a credible and imminent threat, then there is a threat and they should

:25:14. > :25:18.not speak. However, many groups who are offensive, and we talk about

:25:19. > :25:22.Marine Le Pen and national front, and I'm French so I feel I can

:25:23. > :25:27.respond to this, yes, the far right is growing across Europe. If we are

:25:28. > :25:32.not given the opportunity to challenge their views and ideas, if

:25:33. > :25:34.we cannot immediately expose their bigotry and intolerance and

:25:35. > :25:44.prejudice, we cannot win the fight against them. This lady over here.

:25:45. > :25:51.I'm a politics and international Asians student. In response to the

:25:52. > :26:00.comments just made, we're forgetting to address incidents such as... The

:26:01. > :26:04.former commander-in-chief of the Israeli navy who was complicit in

:26:05. > :26:09.torture of Palestinians and has not gone through a just trial. He was

:26:10. > :26:12.invited to Kings College. In this regard I'm for no-platforming

:26:13. > :26:17.because the audience that was allowed to listen to his speech was

:26:18. > :26:22.selected in accordance with the agreement of his speech. How are you

:26:23. > :26:26.supposed to challenge those views in University when you are not allowed

:26:27. > :26:30.to sit in the same room as him? He is not here to defend in South, nor

:26:31. > :26:35.do I know whether that is true about Kings College. -- himself. Should

:26:36. > :26:41.there be any limits on freedom of speech? I think free speech is one

:26:42. > :26:45.of the most important and precious of all human rights. Some of the

:26:46. > :26:50.most important thinkers in history, Galileo, Charles Darwin, Karl Marx,

:26:51. > :26:57.they caused great offence in their time. I think the criteria in

:26:58. > :27:01.restricting free speech has become narrowly defined. If somebody makes

:27:02. > :27:05.false, damaging and harmful allegations against a person, such

:27:06. > :27:12.as they are a rapist or tax fraudster. If they encourage,

:27:13. > :27:17.threaten, abuse or harass, inside violence, that is also a red line.

:27:18. > :27:22.Beyond that, I think we have to listen to points of view, not accept

:27:23. > :27:28.them, but to listen and challenge those points of view. That's the key

:27:29. > :27:34.thing. Bad ideas are best defeated by better ideas, not by censorship.

:27:35. > :27:38.Should there be limits on freedom of speech? My name is Matthew and I'm

:27:39. > :27:42.president of the philosophy and religious studies is IT at Kings

:27:43. > :27:48.College. I was hoping somebody would come onto the topic of human rights.

:27:49. > :27:53.-- religious studies Society. There is a right to freedom of speech and

:27:54. > :27:57.I agree with that. If you bring into that, you have a right to be free

:27:58. > :28:02.from harm or violence, how do we cope with institutional violence

:28:03. > :28:06.towards minority figures, and we have to look in the case of minority

:28:07. > :28:11.groups, it's the minority group themselves who should define what is

:28:12. > :28:14.harmful to them. So if you believe someone is being racist to you,

:28:15. > :28:19.that's enough? If you believe someone is being offensive because

:28:20. > :28:24.of views on trans, that's enough? I wouldn't say that's enough, but I

:28:25. > :28:28.think it's a crucial point of information we need to consider. For

:28:29. > :28:32.example if there were transgender students, or people in the community

:28:33. > :28:36.who felt some comments were transferred, because it's the

:28:37. > :28:40.minority they are involved in, they will have more of an insight as to

:28:41. > :28:46.why it's offensive. The comments made earlier about the sombrero,

:28:47. > :28:50.this is not something that's in our culture, it would be eight minority

:28:51. > :28:55.of, for example, Mexican students in the UK, and it would be their

:28:56. > :29:03.opinion if it was... At Goldsmiths College, the Islamic Society decided

:29:04. > :29:06.that an Iranian commonest and feminist who has a critic of

:29:07. > :29:13.organised religion, particularly of theocracies like Iran and Saudi

:29:14. > :29:19.Arabia, and the way some extremists advocate the killing of female

:29:20. > :29:25.adulterers, gay people, and they tried to stop her is saying that it

:29:26. > :29:30.was violating their safe space because her views were offensive.

:29:31. > :29:38.But she was able to speak? She was invited again. She was allowed to

:29:39. > :29:42.speak, but throughout this, fascists screamed and jabbed in a face and

:29:43. > :29:55.try to is a test she was somehow against the human rights. -- and

:29:56. > :29:59.tried to suggest. Peter Tatchell, some people said you were racist,

:30:00. > :30:04.would you like to respond to that and reference what it was about? I

:30:05. > :30:09.simply say, where is the evidence? There is no evidence for that claim.

:30:10. > :30:14.I have asked my accusers and none of them can provide any evidence. This

:30:15. > :30:18.is what is particularly offensive about some aspects of student

:30:19. > :30:22.politics today. People make false and baseless allegations to try to

:30:23. > :30:28.discredit their opponents without any evidence. Is there anyone here

:30:29. > :30:32.who has evidence Peter Tatchell has held racist views? It mirrors the

:30:33. > :30:37.far right, it's exactly the tactic of the far right to if a man smear

:30:38. > :30:44.and lie about other people. Does anyone here have evidence Peter

:30:45. > :30:50.Tatchell has expressed racist views? I'm Tom and I'm a student in London.

:30:51. > :31:00.I think what was said about Peter Tatchell and how he hasn't really

:31:01. > :31:03.benefited Islamic, Muslim, trans and black people, activists, whatever,

:31:04. > :31:08.it was more about the fact he's very quick to wade into debates about

:31:09. > :31:12.shutting down Islamic speakers, but when it comes to other people, he's

:31:13. > :31:19.fine. As long as you agree with him, you will not shut you down.

:31:20. > :31:25.Nonsense! That's what it comes down to. The reason nobody came back and

:31:26. > :31:31.his accusers didn't come back is because he had silenced them. What

:31:32. > :31:34.happened was a private e-mail was sent and Peter Tatchell smeared

:31:35. > :31:38.himself publicly and ended up outing a member of the NUS. Frankie, for

:31:39. > :31:45.that, he should be ashamed of himself.

:31:46. > :31:55.This is exactly the dirty smear tactics which is so objectionable

:31:56. > :32:00.about student politics today. I did not out Fran. She was the LGBT

:32:01. > :32:07.officer. She had been an LGBT protests. She had been spoken in the

:32:08. > :32:11.press as an out LGBT person. Secondly, on your point about hate

:32:12. > :32:16.preachers and Islamist. I have never argued for the banning of anybody,

:32:17. > :32:22.simply because they express hateful views. It is only when they endorse

:32:23. > :32:27.violence that I have sought to seek to get them banned. That applies to

:32:28. > :32:32.Islamist preachers, Christian preachers, far right experiments and

:32:33. > :32:35.so on. It is not true that I have singled out the Muslim community,

:32:36. > :32:51.and in fact, my organisation, the Peter Tatchell

:32:52. > :32:53.foundation is the only organisation in this country which has an

:32:54. > :32:55.organisation called LGBT Muslim solidarity, to build bridges between

:32:56. > :32:56.the LGBT community and the wider Muslim community, on the basis that

:32:57. > :33:05.we should unite against all hate. After the news and sport we will

:33:06. > :33:10.look at who else potentially should be banned from universities because

:33:11. > :33:12.of their views, Katie Hopkins, Prince Charles, Stephen Fry, the

:33:13. > :33:29.list could go on. Here is Joanna. The High Street giant BHS

:33:30. > :33:31.is on the verge of collapse, Efforts to find a buyer

:33:32. > :33:35.for the clothing and homeware chain, which has been struggling with debts

:33:36. > :33:38.and a large pension deficit, BHS, which has 164 stores,

:33:39. > :33:41.will go into administration It's the biggest retail casualty

:33:42. > :33:45.since Woolworths eight years ago. Plans to allow local councils

:33:46. > :33:47.to form their own academies are being considered

:33:48. > :33:48.by the government. It's to avert a backbench rebellion

:33:49. > :33:51.over forcing all state schools The move comes amid mounting

:33:52. > :33:55.disquiet among some Conservative MPs and councils over plans to force

:33:56. > :33:57.schools to opt out of A group representing 37 largely

:33:58. > :34:01.Conservative local authorities has warned that there is a risk that

:34:02. > :34:03.turning all state schools into academies will fail

:34:04. > :34:05.to raise school standards. And Labour says allowing councils

:34:06. > :34:08.to run their own academy chains would still amount to a "costly

:34:09. > :34:10.upheaval for thousands Government sources have launched

:34:11. > :34:18.a scathing attack on junior doctors' leaders in England -

:34:19. > :34:20.accusing them of trying to secure the dismissal of health

:34:21. > :34:23.secretary Jeremy Hunt, and staging 'a political

:34:24. > :34:26.strike' tomorrow. If it goes ahead, it will be

:34:27. > :34:29.the first time in the history of the NHS that junior doctors have

:34:30. > :34:32.walked out of accident and emergency units,

:34:33. > :34:35.urgent maternity services and mental 13,000 scheduled operations have

:34:36. > :34:41.already been cancelled. The BMA says Mr Hunt should

:34:42. > :34:43.withdraw his threat Nearly two-thirds of university

:34:44. > :35:10.students believe the National Union of Students is right to have a "no

:35:11. > :35:13.platforming" policy, a survey The policy means people or groups

:35:14. > :35:17.on a banned list because of the opinions they hold

:35:18. > :35:19.on topics such as sexuality, transgender issues and race -

:35:20. > :35:21.are not given a platform to speak at student unions

:35:22. > :35:30.across the country. In France, the front National, the

:35:31. > :35:37.sister organisation of the BNP, there is no no-platforming policy.

:35:38. > :35:44.We should defend it. That's a summary of the latest

:35:45. > :35:59.news, join me for Thank you, a couple more messages.

:36:00. > :36:04.David slows this leads to a tiny minority of views. Another person

:36:05. > :36:07.says I am feeling depressed. If your current gathering is representative

:36:08. > :36:17.of students then the future looks weak. If anybody says blue to any of

:36:18. > :36:24.your lot, they will be running home to money for a hug. Another view

:36:25. > :36:32.says they should discuss the subject they are banning. Ryan says Richard

:36:33. > :36:35.Brooks the no-platform policy Democratic is laughable.

:36:36. > :36:48.More on that to come but first Jess with the sport...

:36:49. > :36:51.Now, they're just five points from an historic, first

:36:52. > :36:55.Much was made of them being without their top scorer

:36:56. > :36:57.Jamie Vardy yesterday, who's serving a suspension.

:36:58. > :36:59.But they didn't seem to miss him too much,

:37:00. > :37:03.In fact, the man that replaced Vardy, Leo Ulloa

:37:04. > :37:06.So that puts Leicester eight points clear of Tottenham,

:37:07. > :37:11.Also on the scoresheet for Leicester was Riyad Mahrez.

:37:12. > :37:12.The Algerian international has impressed all season,

:37:13. > :37:15.averaging a goal every other game, and last night he won the PFA

:37:16. > :37:19.The prize was presented to him by his boss Claudio Ranieri.

:37:20. > :37:25.Crystal Palace are in their first FA Cup Final for 26 years.

:37:26. > :37:27.They beat Watford 2-1 yesterday, thanks to Conor Wickham

:37:28. > :37:30.They'll play Manchester United in the final

:37:31. > :37:38.Britain's Anthony Joshua will make the first defence of his IBF world

:37:39. > :37:39.heavyweight champion against unbeaten American

:37:40. > :37:52.Joshua will face Brazeel on June 25th

:37:53. > :38:22.Hello. The election of the National Union of Students new president has

:38:23. > :38:26.been overshadowed. She has called her old University Birmingham

:38:27. > :38:32.something of a Zionist outpost. Some say she should be Ben Thompson for

:38:33. > :38:38.some of her views. As you would expect, we invited her on to our

:38:39. > :38:41.programme today and she said No. Her vice president Richard Brooks is

:38:42. > :38:48.here. How was what she has said in the past less offensive than what

:38:49. > :38:53.some organisations have said. You do not know platform individuals, you

:38:54. > :39:03.know platform organisations. The second thing is we disagree on a

:39:04. > :39:11.number of different things. I supported someone else. She has been

:39:12. > :39:15.elected democratically by the largest student gathering in the

:39:16. > :39:24.world. I think she has been put under an intense amount of scrutiny

:39:25. > :39:28.compared with a white man. There are concerns from Jewish students and

:39:29. > :39:32.she is trying to address those concerns. What I would say to a

:39:33. > :39:38.number of people, there are three months still to go until she starts

:39:39. > :39:43.her presidency. I for one, despite that I did not vote for her, will

:39:44. > :39:50.give her the opportunity to prove that she can be the president she

:39:51. > :39:56.wants to be. Hello. I'm George Harrison, a student at the London

:39:57. > :40:01.School of economics. Do you support the new President? If you were on

:40:02. > :40:10.the outside looking in you would be worried about the future of students

:40:11. > :40:15.but the NUS is a joke. There are only a couple of hundred people who

:40:16. > :40:23.are allowed to vote for the president, it is not a brilliant

:40:24. > :40:31.mandate. I do think we should be worried about the NUS. Who does

:40:32. > :40:37.support the new president? I also did not vote for her but I do trust

:40:38. > :40:40.the democracy of the NUS. There were eight from my union because it is

:40:41. > :40:47.big. It is a representative sample of students from around the UK. 800

:40:48. > :40:54.people is a lot of people. Who does not support them? I am heading up

:40:55. > :41:01.Cambridge's campaign to disaffiliate from the NUS. Why? I think the

:41:02. > :41:06.election of Miley is concerning. She has gone some way to addressing the

:41:07. > :41:19.concerns of Jewish students about anti-Semitic comments, but it is --

:41:20. > :41:26.she was endorsed by somebody from MPAC. She replied on Facebook with

:41:27. > :41:31.thanks and a smiley face. Further to that, we have been talking about how

:41:32. > :41:35.this is not about necessarily it is the right weather and not to be

:41:36. > :41:41.offended, it is about safety. People are talking about safety and harm.

:41:42. > :41:46.At an event that she attended in 2014, she said nonviolent struggle

:41:47. > :41:50.against the State of Israel was not enough. She endorsed violent

:41:51. > :41:56.struggle against the state of Israel. A close friend of mine who

:41:57. > :42:00.is a student at Cambridge University, in his summer holidays a

:42:01. > :42:06.couple of years ago, he was around the corner from a rocket which

:42:07. > :42:16.detonated in Tel Aviv. Watches that was, with mainstream Zionist

:42:17. > :42:23.outlets, resistance is am -- resistance... Any claim to be

:42:24. > :42:27.supporting the NUS' general idea is that safe space is important is

:42:28. > :42:32.rendered laughable by her failure to live up to the standards of her

:42:33. > :42:36.organisation. I want to read you a Facebook post from the union of

:42:37. > :42:42.Jewish students. This is from Russell. He says he has made it

:42:43. > :42:46.clear to her that the anger Jewish students possess after her election

:42:47. > :42:51.result cannot disappear after just a few meetings. She needs to properly

:42:52. > :42:56.distance herself from her past rhetoric, issue sincere apologies

:42:57. > :42:59.and also commit to avoiding any flirtation with anti-Semitic

:43:00. > :43:04.stereotypes in the future. Without these steps, Jewish students will

:43:05. > :43:08.feel they are unable to engage with the NUS under her leadership. I was

:43:09. > :43:13.stopped from speaking on violence against women because I had said,

:43:14. > :43:17.along with many Muslim born feminist colleagues of mine, that the full

:43:18. > :43:26.face veil was a symbol of women's oppression. Which I think is a

:43:27. > :43:29.totally reasonable argument. I wonder what would happen if I said

:43:30. > :43:35.it was a Muslim enclave. As a poet -- as she said Birmingham was a

:43:36. > :43:42.Zionist outpost. Shows the sloppy thinking of these students. Sloppy

:43:43. > :43:46.thinking at the NUS? I want to clarify a couple of important

:43:47. > :43:51.things. Firstly, she did not vote against or condemn a motion

:43:52. > :43:56.condemning Isis. She Major came back to make sure the wording was

:43:57. > :44:04.accurate and did not condemn all Muslims -- she made sure it came

:44:05. > :44:07.back. And secondly, comments around the Zionist them are around the

:44:08. > :44:15.Palestinian and Israeli struggle, they are not around Judaism. I think

:44:16. > :44:20.people who continually deliberately misconstrue her language as

:44:21. > :44:24.anti-Semitic are failing to engage with her and the debates and

:44:25. > :44:29.concerns of many students on campus is that we talked to every day. When

:44:30. > :44:34.she said Birmingham University is something of a Zionist outpost, what

:44:35. > :44:39.are you saying she actually was meaning? I am not here to explain

:44:40. > :44:47.that. The point is that there is a difference between arguing for the

:44:48. > :44:54.freedom of Palestine and arguing or attempting to in anyway offend or

:44:55. > :45:00.limit Jewish students. She has commented since her election and she

:45:01. > :45:03.is trying to set a really high standard and how we can conduct the

:45:04. > :45:08.Israel Palestine debate without falling into these traps which cause

:45:09. > :45:12.further divisions which we constantly try and avoid. It would

:45:13. > :45:19.be good for her to come and we did invite her but she said no. Have

:45:20. > :45:21.some students from Kings. There is a student think tank which has

:45:22. > :45:25.withdrawn an invitation to Boris Johnson to speak in terms of the

:45:26. > :45:30.leaving the EU referendum campaign because of his comments on Friday

:45:31. > :45:34.about President Obama and his part Kenyan ancestry and whether that

:45:35. > :45:36.made him anti-British. What do we think about with the withdrawal of

:45:37. > :45:47.that invitation? Including the debate with Malia, it

:45:48. > :45:52.shows that no-platforming is used to make a political point. We have

:45:53. > :45:55.rules against inciting racial hatred and violence, and it's the law.

:45:56. > :46:01.Everything beyond that is arbitrary. The for banning people like Boris

:46:02. > :46:04.Johnson and Peter Tatchell, is nothing more than a political

:46:05. > :46:10.statement. Boris Johnson hadn't accepted that invitation anyway. I

:46:11. > :46:14.think the best way to prove him wrong would to put him in front of a

:46:15. > :46:19.bright and articulated bunch of students who would do that. I think

:46:20. > :46:24.it comes down to a ridiculous notion. If you're going to withdraw

:46:25. > :46:29.an application from Boris Johnson, do we say that because Boris has

:46:30. > :46:34.offended somebody, there will be no platform for the entire Conservative

:46:35. > :46:38.Party, or if Jeremy Corbyn offends a student, we then ban the entire

:46:39. > :46:51.Labour Party? Who gets to decide what is the offence in University? .

:46:52. > :46:56.Somebody who hasn't spoken... The fact that we even know about these

:46:57. > :47:00.people means they have a platform. The fact student unions have a right

:47:01. > :47:04.and can keep that right to withdraw an invitation at any point they want

:47:05. > :47:08.to, but be clear that the vast majority of external speakers

:47:09. > :47:13.invited are allowed to speak. If a student comes to me, and I'm from

:47:14. > :47:16.the University of Liverpool, if they student comes to me or a group comes

:47:17. > :47:20.to me and say they are concerned about a speaker, we will put

:47:21. > :47:24.measures in place to mitigate any levels of harm. And they will last

:47:25. > :47:30.case scenario we might have to withdraw. What do you mean by

:47:31. > :47:36.potential harm? Violence? That's the individual's decision. What do they

:47:37. > :47:43.say to you when they say, I'm worried about potential harm? A huge

:47:44. > :47:47.variety of things. Like what? They might feel threatened, under

:47:48. > :47:50.pressure, they might have mental health issues meaning they can't

:47:51. > :47:55.partake in the debate. They don't have to come, but we try a number of

:47:56. > :47:59.different measures to make sure they feel like they can't partake in

:48:00. > :48:04.those activities in the same way every other student can do. That's

:48:05. > :48:12.as far as it goes, but if somebody wants to withdraw their invitation,

:48:13. > :48:15.they can do and that's their right. I'm a student at LSE. I think what

:48:16. > :48:22.Boris Johnson said was stupid, personally. Coming back to the point

:48:23. > :48:26.made earlier by Richard, the whole situation being like a house party,

:48:27. > :48:29.getting invited. Universities are not house parties, they are public

:48:30. > :48:34.institutions of learning where you are meant to challenge views. For

:48:35. > :48:39.people to establish walls to protect you from stupidity like Boris

:48:40. > :48:43.Johnson, it's ridiculous. I understand these policies are made

:48:44. > :48:50.to protect people like me, and I'm a gay man with a disability, but I

:48:51. > :48:53.don't want to... Thank you very much, but I don't need your

:48:54. > :49:00.protection. I don't need to be protected from MPAC. It's not just

:49:01. > :49:04.me, people might say, I might say that because that is my live

:49:05. > :49:10.experience. It's not just me saying it. I've talked to black and

:49:11. > :49:15.minority ethnic eagle, trans people, women, other oppressed minorities in

:49:16. > :49:23.my universities, and they say the same thing. -- ethnic minority

:49:24. > :49:27.people. There might be people who are gay men, with a disability, who

:49:28. > :49:34.do not have your confidence, who might feel that by having a speaker

:49:35. > :49:38.who would make them feel potentially threatened, it would further

:49:39. > :49:45.marginalise them. Why not protect them from hearing that? The point of

:49:46. > :49:49.going to university... I've lived my entire life being called defective,

:49:50. > :49:53.all sorts of horrible things on the basis of both my civility and

:49:54. > :49:59.homosexuality. The reason I can say this on my show now, and I'm an

:50:00. > :50:03.actor as well, and that's beside the point! It's because I've had the

:50:04. > :50:06.experience of having to fight against people like that.

:50:07. > :50:10.Unfortunately I've not had a life protected from people who call me

:50:11. > :50:16.defected or a crime against humanity. One priest wanted to

:50:17. > :50:20.exorcise me. I thought it was an extremely detaining situation. The

:50:21. > :50:27.idea we need to be detected from things, I have a problem with that.

:50:28. > :50:32.-- need to be protected. We are coming to the end of the programme.

:50:33. > :50:40.I want to bring in imaging. It was thought you were violating a safe

:50:41. > :50:50.space at Edinburgh. What did you do? This. I raised both hands in the

:50:51. > :50:54.air. What happened? A safe space complaint was made, the only

:50:55. > :50:59.complaint made all year then, and students voted for me to stay. Is

:51:00. > :51:05.that an example of the policy working? Exactly. When somebody made

:51:06. > :51:09.a complaint you were violating safe space by raising both arms, what did

:51:10. > :51:13.you say and think? I thought it was ludicrous but was willing to hear

:51:14. > :51:15.what they had to say. I didn't know what I had done the specifically at

:51:16. > :51:22.that point. The complaint was made anonymously. Even though you were

:51:23. > :51:26.not forced out of the meeting, there was an attempt to eject her simply

:51:27. > :51:32.because she raised her arm. That was deemed to be a violation of the safe

:51:33. > :51:36.space policy. They are entitled to that opinion, but not to eject you

:51:37. > :51:42.from the meeting. But I wasn't ejected. But they tried, some people

:51:43. > :51:49.wanted to try to eject you. But that was their right. For the next few

:51:50. > :51:53.minutes, we are going to put some scenarios to the test and ask you

:51:54. > :51:58.whether the following people should be banned from speaking at

:51:59. > :52:07.universities because of their views. Jeremy Corbyn... You know who he is,

:52:08. > :52:11.the leader of the Labour Party, once described Hamas, the militant

:52:12. > :52:15.Islamic movement, who believe, sexuality should be punished by

:52:16. > :52:24.death, as our friends will stop should Jeremy Corbyn be banned? That

:52:25. > :52:29.was unanimous. No. Katie Hopkins has said various things that people

:52:30. > :52:31.potentially find offensive. She makes a career of it, like comparing

:52:32. > :52:36.migrants to crutches. like comparing migrants

:52:37. > :52:38.to cockroaches, saying "Show me pictures of coffins,

:52:39. > :52:40.show me bodies floating in water, play violins and show me skinny

:52:41. > :52:42.people looking sad. I still don't

:52:43. > :52:54.care." City should she the band, yes or no?

:52:55. > :52:55.Yes, no. This is what happened when she was at Brunel University last

:52:56. > :53:41.year. What do you think about the way the

:53:42. > :53:46.students reacted? APPLAUSE A quick word, turning their backs

:53:47. > :53:51.and walking out? Some imagination but utterly cowardly. I think we

:53:52. > :53:54.have to have the debate. That rate was about welfare. It was a really

:53:55. > :53:59.important discussion. There were lots of views on the table, not just

:54:00. > :54:05.Katie Hopkins. They want a simple black and white and is to how we

:54:06. > :54:08.sort out welfare in this country. That was an opportunity to learn

:54:09. > :54:13.something, listen, not just to people like 80 kids. We can all use

:54:14. > :54:19.stunts like that, but it's not moving politics forward. We will not

:54:20. > :54:28.fight for a better world that way, and we will not be able to develop

:54:29. > :54:33.our own intellect that way. -- people like Katie Hopkins. It is not

:54:34. > :54:40.an NUS emotion, it's not a game, it's not for or against. She called

:54:41. > :54:45.immigrants cockroaches. I can't stand either, but that's not the

:54:46. > :54:49.point. It's a tactic you can deploy. It's not one I advocate. I think it

:54:50. > :55:02.was immature. I'm suggesting a broader climate... This is really

:55:03. > :55:05.serious. We live in a world in which many people from this country,

:55:06. > :55:10.British beeper, young people, they are joining Isis. We live in a world

:55:11. > :55:15.where there is war and all sorts of challenges. I'm suggesting that your

:55:16. > :55:19.generation has a lot on your plate. We live in a climate where freedom

:55:20. > :55:24.is being eroded daily. If you are part of the generation snowflake,

:55:25. > :55:29.get rid of the stuff they can toughen up, because you have to

:55:30. > :55:38.change this world and you can't do it by running out on Katie Hopkins.

:55:39. > :55:40.I think it absolutely makes a statement that the students do not

:55:41. > :55:48.agree with her, and they are exercising their right to spree

:55:49. > :55:52.speech. We have -- free speech. Everybody here has also been given a

:55:53. > :55:58.platform to speak. Katie Hopkins can say whatever she likes. We don't

:55:59. > :56:00.have to give her a space to do it. Next, Stephen Fry.

:56:01. > :56:03.OK, next - Stephen Fry - a national treasure -

:56:04. > :56:05.but he's also said this of abuse victims "your self-pity gets none

:56:06. > :56:08.of my sympathy because self pity is the ugliest emotion in humanity"

:56:09. > :56:15.- clearly those views are offensive to anyone who's been abused -

:56:16. > :56:25.Should he be banned? No. I personally think the whole idea of

:56:26. > :56:32.having no-platform is symbolic. Why shouldn't Stephen Fry be banned for

:56:33. > :56:37.those views? We are again going to the idea of going to a culture of

:56:38. > :56:41.offence. This has resonated in classrooms today. If you say

:56:42. > :56:46.something slightly more nuanced than the propelled vision, there are

:56:47. > :56:48.alarmed bells going off saying you are misogynist or something like

:56:49. > :56:55.that. People don't listen to what you are saying. Why is what Stephen

:56:56. > :57:01.Fry has said anything better than what Julie Bindel hazard in the

:57:02. > :57:05.past, for example? From my own experience, I was sexually abused

:57:06. > :57:08.when I was younger. I think his views on this were quite appalling,

:57:09. > :57:16.the way he talks about this idea that we victimise ourselves. Whether

:57:17. > :57:20.I see myself as a victim or not, it was my rapist to victimise me first

:57:21. > :57:30.and foremost. I personally think if he were to try to have some sort of

:57:31. > :57:35.platform. I e-mailed Mind, is who he is the president off, and I don't

:57:36. > :57:41.think he should be representative of that charity. I don't care if he is

:57:42. > :57:48.banned from universities. But you care about Julie Bindel? Again, I

:57:49. > :57:52.don't really mind, I have seen what you have said about transgender

:57:53. > :57:59.people, and I disagree. That was an article from 13 years ago. It is

:58:00. > :58:02.some strength we could value, it gave people have the strength to

:58:03. > :58:05.submit these views and challenge them, there is strength there.

:58:06. > :58:08.If you go to our programme page bbc.co.uk/victoria you can find

:58:09. > :58:11.an interview with one of the NUS's banned groups - and if you log

:58:12. > :58:14.onto bbc news' Facebook page we'll be hosting a live debate

:58:15. > :58:16.on the issue - do send us your questions.

:58:17. > :58:21.Thank you very much for your company.