22/06/2016

:00:22. > :00:27.Together we can build a stronger economy. Together we can create more

:00:28. > :00:31.jobs. Together we can meet challenges, whether it is climate

:00:32. > :00:36.change or other problems we face in our world. Britain is a great

:00:37. > :00:39.country, but we've always been a country that makes our voice heard

:00:40. > :00:42.and gets things done by working with others. We don't quit and walk away

:00:43. > :00:48.from organisations, we make them work for us. The ideal position for

:00:49. > :00:52.us is to take back control tomorrow of huge amounts of money so we can

:00:53. > :00:55.spend it on our priorities, take back control of our immigration

:00:56. > :00:59.system and take back control of our democracy. That's what this is all

:01:00. > :01:04.about for me, it is about our chance as a nation, once again, to stand on

:01:05. > :01:07.our own two feet and not rely on Brussels, not be told what to do.

:01:08. > :01:09.If you're still yet to make your mind up,

:01:10. > :01:12.we've got our two impartial fact checkers who're here to answer any

:01:13. > :01:22.Also on the programme, in his first TV interview

:01:23. > :01:24.the grandfather of six-year-old Ellie Butler tells this programme

:01:25. > :01:28.she'd still be alive if justice had been done.

:01:29. > :01:31.The girl's father was jailed for life for her murder yesterday.

:01:32. > :01:34.He'd previously been convicted of shaking her

:01:35. > :01:37.when she was just six-weeks-old, but that was later overturned.

:01:38. > :01:41.We'll talk to Ellie's grandad live in the next half hour.

:01:42. > :01:44.And the children's author missing for 11 weeks after reportedly saying

:01:45. > :01:52.Friends tell us they have no idea what's happened to her, but plead

:01:53. > :02:03.Let somebody know. Just let someone know you're safe. Have your space,

:02:04. > :02:08.have your time, just let us know you're OK.

:02:09. > :02:11.In Paris the Northern Ireland fans are still recovering after

:02:12. > :02:14.celebrating one of the greatest nights in their footballing history.

:02:15. > :02:16.They were beaten by Germany, but have made it through to the next

:02:17. > :02:26.round here at the Euros. We're live until 11am

:02:27. > :02:30.every weekday morning. Throughout the programme we'll bring

:02:31. > :02:33.you the latest breaking news and developing stories

:02:34. > :02:45.and as always, we're really In 15 minutes time we will bring you

:02:46. > :02:50.our two independent experts who are here to answer any, well, we say

:02:51. > :02:53.our, because they have been on so many times, they're friends of the

:02:54. > :02:56.programme, to answer any last minute questions you have about the EU

:02:57. > :02:59.referendum because quite a few people have still yet to make up

:03:00. > :03:03.their minds. Please send them in because today is your last chance.

:03:04. > :03:05.Get in touch on the stories we're talking about this morning as well.

:03:06. > :03:09.Use the hashtag Victoria Live and If you text, you will be charged

:03:10. > :03:12.Our top story today, it's the final hectic day

:03:13. > :03:14.of campaigning before you get to decide whether we should stay

:03:15. > :03:18.Both sides of the debate are making their last ditch

:03:19. > :03:22.This morning, directors of companies employing nearly two million people

:03:23. > :03:24.have come out in favour of staying in the EU.

:03:25. > :03:27.They warn in an open letter that leaving will harm

:03:28. > :03:34.But the inventor, Sir James Dyson, says a victory for the remain camp

:03:35. > :03:37.will be what he calls "an act of national self harm."

:03:38. > :03:40.Last night, campaigners for Remain and Leave clashed during a televised

:03:41. > :03:46.debate at Wembley Arena in London as Vicki Young reports.

:03:47. > :03:49.Pop stars, replaced by politicians at Wembley Arena.

:03:50. > :03:55.This was the final showdown of the long campaign

:03:56. > :03:59.with 6,000 watching up close and millions more at home,

:04:00. > :04:02.here was a chance to argue the case one last time

:04:03. > :04:08.Boris Johnson said will there be job losses?

:04:09. > :04:21.All the Remain side have to talk about is Project Fear.

:04:22. > :04:23.We are the fifth biggest economy in the world.

:04:24. > :04:26.We will be able to accomplish free trade once we're free

:04:27. > :04:29.Immigration has played a huge part in this campaign, provoking some

:04:30. > :04:35.The first thing we should do tonight in a discussion about immigration

:04:36. > :04:37.is celebrate immigrants and immigration and everything

:04:38. > :04:44.that they do for our country because I speak entirely personally.

:04:45. > :04:51.My family has benefited massively from immigration.

:04:52. > :04:53.The problem is this - you might start off saying how

:04:54. > :04:56.wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been

:04:57. > :04:58.Project Fear, it has been Project Hate as far

:04:59. > :05:06.But Remain demanded more detail on their opponents'

:05:07. > :05:10.And I think the Leave campaign are selling people a big con

:05:11. > :05:16.You have never promised to reduce numbers.

:05:17. > :05:22.Have the Leave campaign ever promised to reduce numbers?

:05:23. > :05:25.What we said is you take back control and you can decide.

:05:26. > :05:29.Some have accused the Remain side of lacking passion,

:05:30. > :05:43.And if we vote leave and take back control,

:05:44. > :05:46.I believe that this Thursday can be our country's Independence Day.

:05:47. > :05:53.The campaign teams here are assessing how the debate went

:05:54. > :05:57.for them, but both sides seem to agree that this race is extremely

:05:58. > :06:00.close and this could be one of their last chance to say

:06:01. > :06:08.The Leave side stuck to their tried and tested message that Thursday

:06:09. > :06:12.is all about taking back control, but the Remain side say

:06:13. > :06:14.they were the only ones talking about bread and butter issues

:06:15. > :06:21.Today, there will be one final day of frantic campaigning and then

:06:22. > :06:33.Well, let's talk to our political guru Norman Smith who is at

:06:34. > :06:36.Westminster. So what's happening today then Norman? We're going to

:06:37. > :06:41.have to lie down and recover after last night! What a fer show shoulds,

:06:42. > :06:46.angry and acrimonious occasion, but in a warks it is kind of, I think,

:06:47. > :06:50.emblematic of this referendum and just underlines how divisive it has

:06:51. > :06:55.been, how passionate it has been and how close it has been and how also,

:06:56. > :06:58.you know, at the end of the day, we have heard the arguments, we have

:06:59. > :07:01.heard the presentations and the speeches, at the end of the day,

:07:02. > :07:04.basically, to comes down to two things. We know what they are,

:07:05. > :07:08.immigration and the economy. And that is what it all boils down to.

:07:09. > :07:13.Today, it was interesting listening to Mr Cameron, who was about, you

:07:14. > :07:16.know, early doors doing various interviews, again, trying to defend

:07:17. > :07:20.that pledge to get net migration down to the tens of thousands saying

:07:21. > :07:23.on Friday, if he wins, he will seek to reform free movement within the

:07:24. > :07:28.EU, how will other European countries react? I think they will

:07:29. > :07:35.say to him, "No way Jose." He was saying that he was still regard it

:07:36. > :07:38.as not a realistic ambition, so still trying to defend that pledge

:07:39. > :07:42.which proved so damaging to him. He sought to boil his message down into

:07:43. > :07:49.the one thought about being together. I am deeply patriotic

:07:50. > :07:52.person. I love this country that I have the honour to be the Prime

:07:53. > :07:55.Minister of. I really believe after six years in this job I can see that

:07:56. > :07:59.Britain is stronger, Britain is greater, when we work through these

:08:00. > :08:06.institutions like Nato, like the European Union, to fix the things

:08:07. > :08:09.that we need to fix. If I could sum this-up in one wogt, it would be

:08:10. > :08:12.together. Together we can build a stronger economy, together we can

:08:13. > :08:16.create more jobs and together we can meet challenges whether it is

:08:17. > :08:19.climate change or other problems we face in our world. Britain is a

:08:20. > :08:22.great country, but we've always been a country that makes our voice heard

:08:23. > :08:27.and gets things done by working with others. We see don't quit and walk

:08:28. > :08:32.away from organisations, we make them work for us. Boris Johnson was

:08:33. > :08:38.out and about early doors this morning after last night's debate.

:08:39. > :08:43.He was in Billingsgate fish market where he was asked to kiss a fish!

:08:44. > :08:48.He was pressed on I will gration and what was interesting is he is not

:08:49. > :08:51.setting any figure on the number of migrants he thinks would be

:08:52. > :08:55.acceptable. He is not making any pledge that if we leave the EU we

:08:56. > :09:00.would cut levels of immigration even though I suspect many people who

:09:01. > :09:03.have heard the rhetoric of the Leave campaign thinks that's what they

:09:04. > :09:10.would do. They are not setting a target for reducing net migration.

:09:11. > :09:13.Instead Mr Johnson was extolling the virtues of this Australian-points

:09:14. > :09:16.style system. The ideal position for us is to take back control tomorrow

:09:17. > :09:20.of huge amounts of money, so we can spend it on our priorities, take

:09:21. > :09:22.back control of our immigration system, take back control

:09:23. > :09:26.fundamentally of our democracy. That's what this is all about for

:09:27. > :09:31.me. It is about our chance as a nation, once again, to stand on our

:09:32. > :09:35.own two feet and not rely on Brussels, not be told what to do by

:09:36. > :09:40.unelected, unaccountable officials in Brussels. And to speak up for

:09:41. > :09:44.democracy on behalf of literally hundreds of millions of people

:09:45. > :09:52.around Europe who agree with us. The last thing that struck me Vic

:09:53. > :09:58.watching last night's debate was the extraordinarily feisty performance

:09:59. > :10:02.of Ruth Davidson who voters south of the border haven't seen. It was like

:10:03. > :10:07.a re-run, Nicola Sturgeon when she came down and dominated the platform

:10:08. > :10:11.and Ruth Davidson was like a pocket battleship last night blasting away

:10:12. > :10:15.at Boris Johnson and I will finish with this thought. There was a lot

:10:16. > :10:20.of talk about who might succeed David Cameron and it seems to me, we

:10:21. > :10:27.have seen during this referendum a clutch of formidable women emerge in

:10:28. > :10:32.Tory ranks, not just Ruth Davidson, also Amber Rudd and Andrea Led some,

:10:33. > :10:35.you just wonder if the next Tory leader might not be a man, it might

:10:36. > :10:41.be a woman. Well, who would have thought!

:10:42. > :10:44.We will bring you more on the EU Ryder Cup with our two independent

:10:45. > :10:53.experts. If you have got a question, get in touch in the usual way.

:10:54. > :10:55.Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:10:56. > :10:59.A Scottish woman jailed for drugs smuggling has been released

:11:00. > :11:02.from prison in Peru, and is flying back to the UK.

:11:03. > :11:04.22-year-old Melissa Reid, who is seen here at Lima Airport

:11:05. > :11:07.last night, was arrested in 2013, alongside Michaella McCollum

:11:08. > :11:09.from County Tyrone with ?1.5 million worth of cocaine in their luggage.

:11:10. > :11:13.Miss McCollum was freed in March, but remains on parole in Peru.

:11:14. > :11:16.Vigils will be held in cities around the world to remember

:11:17. > :11:19.The grandfather of Ellie Butler is calling for a review

:11:20. > :11:21.of the circumstances that led up to the six-year-old's death.

:11:22. > :11:23.Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found guilty

:11:24. > :11:26.He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter

:11:27. > :11:28.at their home in south-west London, in October 2013.

:11:29. > :11:31.She died less than a year after she was returned

:11:32. > :11:36.to her parents care following a custody battle.

:11:37. > :11:41.Ellie's grandfather, Neil Gray, who looked after her for five years,

:11:42. > :11:43.will give his first TV interview since the verdict to Victoria

:11:44. > :11:49.Sir Cliff Richard has called for a change to the law so that

:11:50. > :11:52.people accused of sexual offences have their identity protected

:11:53. > :11:59.Last week prosecutors said he would face no charges over

:12:00. > :12:02.historical allegations of sexual abuse.

:12:03. > :12:04.But the singer told ITV's Good Morning Britain programme

:12:05. > :12:10.that he feels his reputation has been tarnished by the accusations.

:12:11. > :12:12.Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due

:12:13. > :12:19.Organisers say current wet weather and ground conditions

:12:20. > :12:22.The gates officially opened an hour ago but people have reported queuing

:12:23. > :12:25.for more than five hours to get on to the site.

:12:26. > :12:27.More than 100,000 people are expected to descend

:12:28. > :12:36.on Worthy Farm for the five-day event.

:12:37. > :12:44.MPs could be able to sign themselves off work for up to weeks. Workers

:12:45. > :12:49.need a note if they are off for more than a week. GPs say they should be

:12:50. > :12:53.trusted more in order to reduce unnecessary appointments. The issue

:12:54. > :12:53.will be debated a the British Medical Association's annual

:12:54. > :12:57.conference today. That's a summary of

:12:58. > :12:59.the latest BBC News. Do get in touch with us

:13:00. > :13:12.throughout the morning. If you have got a question for one

:13:13. > :13:15.of our impartial experts, or if you haven't made up your mind in

:13:16. > :13:24.tomorrow's EU referendum vote, ask your question and maybe it will

:13:25. > :13:30.help. If you text, it will be charged at

:13:31. > :13:34.the standard network. Only one place for us to start and

:13:35. > :13:39.that's with the achements of Northern Ireland. Despite losing 1-0

:13:40. > :13:43.to Germany, they have reached the knock-out stages of Euro 2016.

:13:44. > :13:52.They've made it through as one of the best third placed teams. Well,

:13:53. > :13:58.let's speak to Katie Gornell now. Katie really do have their

:13:59. > :14:02.goalkeeper to thank, don't they? Well, they certainly do, Sally. This

:14:03. > :14:07.was a huge game for Northern Ireland here last night and they knew going

:14:08. > :14:10.into it that a draw would see them through to the last 16, but a narrow

:14:11. > :14:13.defeat and their hopes would still be alive. It was going to be a huge

:14:14. > :14:17.ask against the world champions and it looked like the task was going to

:14:18. > :14:22.get harder when Gomes scored for Germany after half an hour. At that

:14:23. > :14:26.stage, the pressure on the Northern Irish defence was relentless. What

:14:27. > :14:29.the Germans didn't count was on was Michael McGovern having the game of

:14:30. > :14:34.his life in the Northern Irish goal. He pulled off a string of fantastic

:14:35. > :14:39.saves to keep the scoreline down, but for him, the score could have

:14:40. > :14:43.been 6, 7, that's no exaggeration and that narrow defeat meant that

:14:44. > :14:48.Northern Ireland had a good goal difference that saw them through in

:14:49. > :14:52.the end to the last 16, after the result against Turkey last night.

:14:53. > :14:56.Now, Michael O'Neill, speaking after the game, but before he knew his

:14:57. > :14:59.side progressed, he was full of praise for Michael McGovern, of

:15:00. > :15:03.course, but he said what an achievement it would be to get out

:15:04. > :15:06.of that group. When you see the quality of the group we're in,

:15:07. > :15:10.Ukraine, Poland and Germany and for us to come out of that group was an

:15:11. > :15:15.immense achievement. A great group of players. They deserve the

:15:16. > :15:18.opportunity to go to round 16. I fear who we may play, but that's

:15:19. > :15:21.what this experience is about. We are taking lads here who play their

:15:22. > :15:24.club football in the Football League and are coming up here and playing

:15:25. > :15:26.against the best players in the world. So as I say, we want the

:15:27. > :15:39.experience to Could it actually be an all home

:15:40. > :15:44.nations are fair in the last 16? Yes, that is a possibility. They

:15:45. > :15:51.will either play Wales in Paris, Northern Ireland, on Saturday, they

:15:52. > :15:55.could play France in Lyon. We will know for certain after tonight bus

:15:56. > :15:59.group games how the permutations worked out. When Mark -- when

:16:00. > :16:04.Michael O'Neill was asked about it, he said he would prefer to play

:16:05. > :16:08.Wales. He feels he has got a better chance against Chris Coleman's side.

:16:09. > :16:12.He is also may be thinking about the fact that Wales are in a slightly

:16:13. > :16:17.easier side of the draw. Maybe he has got one eye on the

:16:18. > :16:23.quarterfinals. With their motto being Dare to dream, you never know.

:16:24. > :16:27.Great stuff. Tonight it is the return -- turn of the Republic of

:16:28. > :16:31.Ireland. They need a win to go through. It is a big ask. Italy are

:16:32. > :16:33.set to rest many other players. Maybe there is a chance for the

:16:34. > :16:37.Republic as well. So, there's just one day left

:16:38. > :16:39.until the UK decides whether to leave or remain

:16:40. > :16:42.in the European Union. One day left of a campaign

:16:43. > :16:45.which has gone on and on and on and on and on -

:16:46. > :16:50.and quite possibly produced more hot air and Punch and Judy

:16:51. > :17:03.politics than anything else. Certainly more acrimonious than the

:17:04. > :17:04.Scottish Independence Referendum, in my experience.

:17:05. > :17:06.Here's some highlights - or perhaps lowlights.

:17:07. > :17:08.It lasts a couple of minutes and features flashing and strobing

:17:09. > :17:25.I will go to Parliament and propose that the British people decide our

:17:26. > :17:34.future in Europe. Through an inn, in-out referendum on Thursday, the

:17:35. > :17:36.23rd of June. The home you live in, your weekly

:17:37. > :17:41.shop, the monthly bills, these things are all at risk. Why are we

:17:42. > :17:46.spending ?10 billion a year net to Brussels, some of which is spent on

:17:47. > :17:52.Spanish bull-fighting? The real sure tonight is not in Brussels but in

:17:53. > :18:06.Westminster. -- show. What matters is... All of which is... Leave.

:18:07. > :18:11.Remain. After a great deal of heartache, I will be abdicating fold

:18:12. > :18:14.leave. If people vote to leave on the basis of immigration, I'm afraid

:18:15. > :18:23.they will find there will be in the same situation. The governor has

:18:24. > :18:27.strayed into a simple personal prediction. The people who want to

:18:28. > :18:31.drag the United Kingdom out of the European Union are now trying to

:18:32. > :18:38.drag the Queen in. Napoleon and Hitler were all trying to create a

:18:39. > :18:44.United States of Europe. I play with a straight bat. We're losing our

:18:45. > :18:50.identity and we're glad to get swallowed up. I am very positive on

:18:51. > :18:56.the EU. UK will be at the back of the queue. The American president is

:18:57. > :19:02.saying rubbish. I am angry at the way the British people are being

:19:03. > :19:10.misled. Not only have we get depressed wages for British

:19:11. > :19:16.people... Scare stories. You are no fishermen's friend! You

:19:17. > :19:20.are on the European Parliament Fishing committee and you attended

:19:21. > :19:26.one out of 43 meetings. You are a fraud, Nigel. What Mr Geldof did was

:19:27. > :19:28.show his absolute contempt for the men and women who have come here

:19:29. > :19:41.today. I am campaigning to remain in the

:19:42. > :19:48.European Union to protect the rights of workers.

:19:49. > :19:55.Immigrants. Immigrants built this city. The

:19:56. > :20:00.people who are going to bring this future forward on the country but

:20:01. > :20:02.you are not worried. Have a leaflet. No.

:20:03. > :20:25.OK. And yet despite -

:20:26. > :21:19.or perhaps because of - the kind of campaigning we've just

:21:20. > :21:22.seen, many of you are Some of you are still switching as

:21:23. > :21:26.well. And it's the undecideds who hold

:21:27. > :21:28.the balance of power when it comes to the outcome

:21:29. > :21:31.in what is undoubtedly the most important political

:21:32. > :21:32.decision of a generation. So if you are one of those

:21:33. > :21:34.undecideds, we've bought back, by popular

:21:35. > :21:37.demand, our two wise men - our objective, impartial

:21:38. > :21:38.and unbiased experts who are here to answer

:21:39. > :21:40.your questions before Hello again to Anand Menon,

:21:41. > :21:44.who is a Professor of European Politics and Foreign Affairs

:21:45. > :21:46.at Kings College, and the Director of 'The EU

:21:47. > :21:49.in a Changing Europe' group. And Will Moy, the Director

:21:50. > :21:51.of Full Fact, an impartial organisation fact checking on issues

:21:52. > :22:04.around the EU Referendum. It is probably worth saying to our

:22:05. > :22:09.audience why you are both neutral and impartial. We are an independent

:22:10. > :22:17.fact checking charity. We have been doing this since 2010 on all sorts

:22:18. > :22:18.of topics. We are made up of academics who report the results of

:22:19. > :22:20.the research they have done. We've also got some undecided voters

:22:21. > :22:22.from right across the UK. Business owner Angelo Cicarelli

:22:23. > :22:35.in Chelmsford and 22-year-old And Mick Dombey, talking to a slide

:22:36. > :22:39.from his butcher's shop in London, where he may have two interrupt our

:22:40. > :22:50.conversation to serve a customer or two. Good morning. Hello. My

:22:51. > :22:58.difficult situation is, I am of Polish descent by self. My

:22:59. > :23:05.grandfather came here after the war. I do feel that the eastern Europeans

:23:06. > :23:09.are often seen as just here to get as much as they can off the welfare

:23:10. > :23:15.state, as much as they can from the government, when from my experience

:23:16. > :23:20.that is certainly not true. Most people come here because of the

:23:21. > :23:26.reputation this country has. A very caring nation. A very warm nation. A

:23:27. > :23:33.country with much empathy. So my difficult situation is, I feel in my

:23:34. > :23:40.heart that I should vote to stay in. But when I see how many people

:23:41. > :23:45.here... It is bit like Wembley Stadium, it can take 90,000. If you

:23:46. > :23:50.have 120,000 people already in the stadium, I feel the pressure on all

:23:51. > :23:56.of the services is very high. And whether they can cope with what is

:23:57. > :24:00.happening. If the government could assure us that there are plans and

:24:01. > :24:05.steps to actually build more schools, more hospitals, more old

:24:06. > :24:10.people's homes, then I think we would all be a lot happier and could

:24:11. > :24:16.make our decision easier. Particularly if they told us where

:24:17. > :24:20.the money is coming from. That is a question for the comment of the day.

:24:21. > :24:22.In terms of EU referendum, your question is about net migration and

:24:23. > :24:32.what it would be if we remain relief? Yes it is. What would happen

:24:33. > :24:35.in the future regarding our infrastructure, the roads, the

:24:36. > :24:43.railways, the services, if immigration continues as it has done

:24:44. > :24:53.over the next ten years? Will we be able to cope? That is my concern.

:24:54. > :24:59.Let's hear what Ayn Rand and will have to say. What happens to net

:25:00. > :25:04.migration in the UK up to 2030 to Two things to say. You are quite

:25:05. > :25:11.right on the economics. People from Europe who come here contributed to

:25:12. > :25:16.our economy more than they take out. What happens when we stay? We have

:25:17. > :25:19.no obvious control over the number of people from other European member

:25:20. > :25:24.states who come here to work. The majority of migrants from non-EU

:25:25. > :25:27.member states now. If we leave, we have the power to control migration

:25:28. > :25:31.from Europe and the rest of the world. Whether a government would

:25:32. > :25:36.want to, would depend on the calculation of how good they think

:25:37. > :25:38.migration is for our economy. It is difficult to tell. There is clear

:25:39. > :25:48.evidence that migration does benefit the economy. The evidence is that

:25:49. > :25:52.there is possibly a small economic benefit to immigration overall, and

:25:53. > :25:56.that EU immigrants are probably better for our public finances than

:25:57. > :26:00.non-EU immigrants. But we know they are affecting things like schools

:26:01. > :26:05.more than things like nursing homes, because they tend to be younger.

:26:06. > :26:08.That is why they affect schools more than hospitals. We also know that we

:26:09. > :26:12.are not building of houses for everyone who needs a house already.

:26:13. > :26:20.That is to do with the government of the day. Half of population changes

:26:21. > :26:33.driven by immigration. Roughly half of immigration is coming from the

:26:34. > :26:38.EU. It is a factor. OK. Mick, I don't know how far that goes to

:26:39. > :26:44.helping you? I think it does go some way. It is more or less what we have

:26:45. > :26:52.been hearing. I just think if the figures were clearer as to where the

:26:53. > :26:57.money is going to come from, if the gum and decided, we will not

:26:58. > :27:02.continue plans with HS2, the money will come from there, that would

:27:03. > :27:10.really help. I would like, finally, just to say that I am so proud of

:27:11. > :27:16.our nation and the way that we have dealt in the past with all of the

:27:17. > :27:20.conflicts and everything else. I just feel that we are very lucky to

:27:21. > :27:25.live in a country where everybody else would like to come and live. It

:27:26. > :27:29.is a great credit to the British people, which I am very proud to be

:27:30. > :27:34.one. There is no other country, as far as I am aware, with the word

:27:35. > :27:42.great in front of it. You do not have great Belgian, great Germany or

:27:43. > :27:46.great America. I hope on Saturday, or probably Friday, I hope on

:27:47. > :27:53.Saturday the nation gets back together as we have done before and

:27:54. > :27:58.we work to join and be as harmonious as we have been in the past. Mick,

:27:59. > :28:04.that is quite a moving and wise sentiment. I thank you for it. Let

:28:05. > :28:10.me bring in Naomi and Angelo. Naomi, what is your question? I was just

:28:11. > :28:18.wondering how leaving or staying in the EU might affect the NHS, really?

:28:19. > :28:22.The short answer is there is no direct effect on the NHS. We run the

:28:23. > :28:29.NHS. What they have expressed concerns about is if leaving the EU

:28:30. > :28:32.is bad for the UK economy, that probably means there will be less

:28:33. > :28:37.money for the Gottman is to spend overall. That probably means there

:28:38. > :28:42.will be less money for the NHS. That is not a given. We had a recession

:28:43. > :28:45.in 2008. There was less money for the government to spend and they

:28:46. > :28:50.choose to continue spending it on the NHS. That means more cuts

:28:51. > :28:56.elsewhere to make that possible. That is the big concern with the

:28:57. > :29:00.NHS. The EU does not run the NHS. It has some role in regulating medicals

:29:01. > :29:05.and things like that, clinical trials, but it does not run the NHS.

:29:06. > :29:11.Those decisions will still be made in London and Scotland etc. Why is

:29:12. > :29:15.that question key for you? I think the NHS is so important to our

:29:16. > :29:20.country. It brings people together. It looks after people who really

:29:21. > :29:25.need it. I think it is really important that remains free at the

:29:26. > :29:29.point of access. And that everybody who needs health care can get it. I

:29:30. > :29:36.wonder if the response to your question helps you at all in

:29:37. > :29:39.reaching a decision? I think you described reassuring in that whether

:29:40. > :29:42.we leave or stay, hopefully the government will continue to fund the

:29:43. > :29:48.NHS. Let's bring in Angelo. How are you?

:29:49. > :29:53.Hello. Thank you for having me and thank you for the opportunity. What

:29:54. > :29:59.do you do for a living? I run a sports company. We work with

:30:00. > :30:04.children in schools and nurseries. We provide a wide range of different

:30:05. > :30:12.sports services. My question is really about business. If we vote

:30:13. > :30:15.Leave, how is it going to affect the business? It is hard and challenging

:30:16. > :30:20.two to the facts to be scaremongering from both sides. How

:30:21. > :30:21.is it going to affect business to how will it affect taxes? Will

:30:22. > :30:32.things increase in price? Well, part of it will depend what

:30:33. > :30:35.sort of business you are. If you are a business that didn't trade

:30:36. > :30:40.externally or doesn't export or import, isn't reliant on firms that

:30:41. > :30:44.import or export, it may not affect you very much indeed. A lot of

:30:45. > :30:47.exporters like Dyson are in favour because they think if the pound

:30:48. > :30:51.falls, it will be good for them. They can export more because the

:30:52. > :30:53.pound will be weaker. If you are a company that trades with the

:30:54. > :30:56.European market on the other hand, the answer is partly I don't know

:30:57. > :30:59.because it depends on the deal we get, but it might become hard tore

:31:00. > :31:04.trade with the European market, so it is different for different

:31:05. > :31:08.businesses I am afraid. Will? About nine out of ten businesses don't

:31:09. > :31:12.export to the EU. But some big businesses do and it is a very

:31:13. > :31:15.important market for quite a number of businesses. There are two

:31:16. > :31:20.fundamental things that will affect every business. One is if we have an

:31:21. > :31:25.economic slowdown as a lot of people predict even on both sides in the

:31:26. > :31:27.short run, an economic slow down and in the longer run it gets more

:31:28. > :31:31.uncertain. Would that be an opportunity for you? Some businesses

:31:32. > :31:34.would think it would be, but a lot of businesses would be nervous about

:31:35. > :31:36.that. The other is the great big decision that happens after the

:31:37. > :31:41.referendum. If we vote to leave. We have to decide do we stay in the

:31:42. > :31:44.single market or not? If we stay in the single market we will probably

:31:45. > :31:49.still have access to sell into the EU and we will probably still accept

:31:50. > :31:52.freedom of movement for us into the EU and for EU citizens into the UK

:31:53. > :31:57.as well. If we leave the single market then all of those I shall

:31:58. > :32:01.easterned who comes here and who can sell here and who can sell to the

:32:02. > :32:06.rest of the EU come up for grabs in the negotiations. What are you going

:32:07. > :32:08.to do between now and tomorrow to actually reach your decision or can

:32:09. > :32:13.you imagine walking into the polling station and just making up your mind

:32:14. > :32:18.on-the-spot? You know what I think a lot of people are going to do that

:32:19. > :32:23.to be honest. And like I say, it is really hard to see the facts through

:32:24. > :32:30.scaremongering from both sides. To be honest I am leaning more towards

:32:31. > :32:35.remain. But you know, we've got a B52 time so, you know, we could be

:32:36. > :32:40.swayed. Naomi, what about you, between now

:32:41. > :32:43.and tomorrow, Naomi, can you envisage walking in there and just

:32:44. > :32:47.making up your mind on-the-spot? Yes, to be honest, I think I

:32:48. > :32:50.probably will end up making my mind up when I get there. Will you go

:32:51. > :32:53.with your gut at the time that you happen to walk into the polling

:32:54. > :33:00.station? I think I'm going to kind of read up a little bit tonight on

:33:01. > :33:03.both sides and I don't know, flip a coin and while it is in the air, you

:33:04. > :33:09.work out which one it is that you want! Oh my gosh! We are talking

:33:10. > :33:14.about flipping a coin, wow, to make a decision that's so significant. If

:33:15. > :33:18.you flip it while it is in the air, you know with your gut which side it

:33:19. > :33:22.is that you want it to land on. Maybe I'll try that tonight. All

:33:23. > :33:27.right. I've got some more questions here from people who are sending

:33:28. > :33:30.them in from across the UK. Darrel e-mailed, "Is the possibility of a

:33:31. > :33:34.second Scottish independence referendum real in the case of a

:33:35. > :33:38.vote to Leave or is it simply an exaggeration?" Well, I think, I

:33:39. > :33:42.would say two things on that. One, it is quite likely that the country

:33:43. > :33:45.will be very divided over the vote. So you can see a situation where we

:33:46. > :33:49.vote to leave, but Scotland has voted strongly to stay. And that's

:33:50. > :33:52.where this comes from, the notion that the Scots have been outvoted by

:33:53. > :33:55.the English. The SNP, I think, will only hold a referendum if they're

:33:56. > :33:58.sure they're going to win it. They don't want to hold a second

:33:59. > :34:02.referendum and lose it. It will depend partly on the polls. I think

:34:03. > :34:04.if the polls start to show a significant lead for the Scottish

:34:05. > :34:11.independence position, then they might be tempted to ask for a second

:34:12. > :34:16.referendum, yes. OK. This tweet from Sarah, "Please explain the free

:34:17. > :34:25.trade zone. The one that already exists from Iceland to the Russian

:34:26. > :34:30.border." OK. You took a really deep breath there, Will. Why? It gets

:34:31. > :34:37.complicated. Try and communicate in plain English! So we've got the EU.

:34:38. > :34:41.28 member states. Every EU country has free movement between all of

:34:42. > :34:46.them, free trade, free movement of goods so on and so forth and then we

:34:47. > :34:50.have got other countries which are hangers on, countries like Norway.

:34:51. > :34:53.Norway is a member of the European Economic Area. It has signed up to

:34:54. > :34:59.free movement. It is signed up to a lot, but not all of the EU law, and

:35:00. > :35:04.it gets a lot less say into what becomes EU law than EU countries do.

:35:05. > :35:08.It pays some money into the rest of the European Union. Then we have got

:35:09. > :35:12.Switzerland which is one stage further removed and it accepts some

:35:13. > :35:16.EU law, but on a different basis. It pays some money on a different basis

:35:17. > :35:21.and it accepts freedom of movement. Then we have got Turkey where there

:35:22. > :35:24.is a Customs agreement and there has been for many years. You have the EU

:35:25. > :35:27.as the core and then you have a whole set of agreements going out

:35:28. > :35:33.there of different levels of integration. So it is fair to say

:35:34. > :35:38.there is free trade going beyond the EU itself, it is also fair to say

:35:39. > :35:42.that there are quid pro quos of that free trade in every case. This on

:35:43. > :35:46.whatsapp from someone who doesn't leave their name, "I have just

:35:47. > :35:50.renewed our family's ten year passports. Will we need to get new

:35:51. > :35:58.passports if we vote to leave?" No. There is no such thing as an EU

:35:59. > :36:05.passport. You won't have to. OK. Right, I'm going to ask you finally

:36:06. > :36:10.to put your money where your mouth is and tell me what will happen. If

:36:11. > :36:16.you don't mind, or will it affect your impartiality. We don't do

:36:17. > :36:23.political punditry. I'm asking you for your opinion? I think it will be

:36:24. > :36:26.very close. OK, that's the politician's answer despite you

:36:27. > :36:30.being an academic. Listen, good luck. I really appreciate your time

:36:31. > :36:34.this morning. Thank you. Cheers, thank you very much.

:36:35. > :36:37.Still to come, we'll be speaking to the grandfather of six year

:36:38. > :36:40.old Ellie Butler who tells this programme in his first TV interview

:36:41. > :36:49.she'd still be alive if justice had been done.

:36:50. > :36:55.We'll talk to the friends of the children's author who went missing

:36:56. > :37:00.11 weeks ago who said she needed time to herself. Police ruled out

:37:01. > :37:04.foul play. Friends tell us what happened to her is a total mystery.

:37:05. > :37:06.Here's Joanna in the newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:37:07. > :37:09.It's the final hectic day of campaigning before you get

:37:10. > :37:14.to decide whether we should stay or leave the European Union.

:37:15. > :37:16.Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch

:37:17. > :37:24.David Cameron said he doesn't believe there are any risks to the

:37:25. > :37:28.UK to stay in the EU. Boris Johnson, who is on a tour of England says it

:37:29. > :37:29.is time for a totally new relationship with our partners

:37:30. > :37:33.across the channel. A Scottish woman jailed for drugs

:37:34. > :37:36.smuggling has been released from prison in Peru,

:37:37. > :37:38.and is flying back to the UK. 22-year-old Melissa Reid,

:37:39. > :37:41.who is seen here at Lima Airport last night, was arrested in 2013,

:37:42. > :37:43.alongside Michaella McCollum from County Tyrone with ?1.5 million

:37:44. > :37:46.worth of cocaine in their luggage. Miss McCollum was freed in March,

:37:47. > :37:53.but remains on parole in Peru. Vigils will be held in cities around

:37:54. > :37:56.the world to remember the life of the Labour MP,

:37:57. > :38:00.Jo Cox, who was killed last week. Today would have been her

:38:01. > :38:02.42nd birthday today. She was killed outside her

:38:03. > :38:05.constituency surgery Her family, friends and former

:38:06. > :38:09.colleagues will gather in locations including Trafalgar Square

:38:10. > :38:11.in London, as well as New York, Sir Cliff Richard is calling

:38:12. > :38:22.for a change to the law so that people accused of sexual offences

:38:23. > :38:24.have their identity protected Last week prosecutors said Sir Cliff

:38:25. > :38:28.will face no charges over historical But the singer told ITV's

:38:29. > :38:34.Good Morning Britain programme that he feels his reputation has

:38:35. > :38:42.been tarnished by the accusations. That's a summary of

:38:43. > :38:53.the latest BBC News. Good morning.

:38:54. > :38:57.It is a beautiful day here in Paris as you can probably see, the sun is

:38:58. > :39:01.shining in the centre of the city, but it is even more special if you

:39:02. > :39:05.are a Northern Ireland fan. Let's just remind ourselves of scenes from

:39:06. > :39:10.last night. It was an incredible game. They are through to the last

:39:11. > :39:14.16, despite a 1-0 defeat to Germany. A heavier defeat would have seen

:39:15. > :39:19.them go out, but their goalkeeper Michael McGovern kept them in the

:39:20. > :39:25.gamement 1-0 was the final score there. Sparking huge scenes of

:39:26. > :39:34.celebration in the ground. England have a rest day today. Lots

:39:35. > :39:39.of the papers this morning talking about unrest within the England

:39:40. > :39:43.camp. Some players unhappy about changes, including captain Wayne

:39:44. > :39:55.Rooney, so far Roy Hodgson hasn't commented. And the fixtures are out

:39:56. > :40:02.today. Newcastle go to Fulham. All the details, of course, on the BBC

:40:03. > :40:06.Sport website. Newcastle, of course, starting life in the Championship.

:40:07. > :40:08.That's all the sports news from Paris. Back to you. Thank you very

:40:09. > :40:12.much, Sally. The head injuries sustained

:40:13. > :40:14.by six-year-Ellie Butler were equivalent to those sustained

:40:15. > :40:17.in a high-speed car accident. Except those head injuries

:40:18. > :40:21.were inflicted her own father, Ben Butler, who was jailed

:40:22. > :40:23.for a minimum of 23 years yesterday Butler was a violent and domineering

:40:24. > :40:37.man who abused and controlled both his partner, Jennifer Gray

:40:38. > :40:40.as well as their daughter. He'd already been found guilty

:40:41. > :40:42.of shaking his daughter But that conviction was quashed

:40:43. > :40:45.and a judge handed care of the little girl back

:40:46. > :40:48.to both Butler and Gray. At the time, Ellie's grandfather

:40:49. > :40:50.warned the judge who made that decision would "have

:40:51. > :40:53.blood on her hands". We'll speak to him live in his first

:40:54. > :40:56.TV interview in a moment. First, this is the case against Ben

:40:57. > :41:08.Butler. This is the family life that Ben

:41:09. > :41:13.Butler fought for. Go on, Ellie. And the life he destroyed in a fit of

:41:14. > :41:17.rage. Six-year-old Ellie was living with a man on a short fuse as an

:41:18. > :41:26.accidentally recorded phone call demonstrated. (BLEEP) off. There

:41:27. > :41:32.were several aggressive text messages which the court heard was a

:41:33. > :41:37.torrent of verbal abuse Butler unleashed on his partner. Butler

:41:38. > :41:42.texted, "I can't cope anymore. Woke up. I am in a rage already. Been in

:41:43. > :41:48.place so many times, my hands are shaking. One more mistake, I'm going

:41:49. > :41:53.to lose it." He texted, "Stay out of my way or you will be hurt. Only

:41:54. > :41:58.drunk I can stand you and your ways. Now go die." Days before Ellie's

:41:59. > :42:03.death, Gray, wrote this, "If you weren't here, I would die. Just so

:42:04. > :42:08.you know, that is truth through and through." Video also shows Ellie

:42:09. > :42:13.with a black eye which Butler claimed was from a fall. Weeks later

:42:14. > :42:16.in October 2013, he battered Ellie to death calling her mother moments

:42:17. > :42:20.later. Jennie Gray worked opposite the old

:42:21. > :42:25.baby, yards from the courtroom where the case has been heard. C TV

:42:26. > :42:28.footage shows her rushing home to Sutton where they tried to stage

:42:29. > :42:33.things to look like an accident. Before sending their younger child

:42:34. > :42:37.to find Ellie and finally calling 999. My daughter is not breathing

:42:38. > :42:47.properly. Jennie Gray is shouting with Ben Butler in the background.

:42:48. > :42:52.She is laying there. OK, OK, darling I'm helping you now. It is a 15

:42:53. > :42:56.minute call in which Jennie Gray is instructed on how to resuscitate

:42:57. > :43:06.Ellie. 30 times you need to pump the chest. Detectives soon worked out

:43:07. > :43:10.Ellie had been dead for sometime. When you realise that at the time

:43:11. > :43:16.the ambulance was called, it is give or take two hours after she first

:43:17. > :43:21.knew, that is a is performance that must have been very difficult.

:43:22. > :43:26.The couple had a history. In 2007 Ben Butler was convicted of shaking

:43:27. > :43:30.six-week old Ellie. That was quashed on a legal technicality and Ellie

:43:31. > :43:34.eventually returned to their care. The couple even went on television

:43:35. > :43:38.to complain of their injustice. If anything, he was trying to be, you

:43:39. > :43:41.know, the perfect dad, he was trying to get everything fine. So you

:43:42. > :43:46.wouldn't have had any warning signs or anything that this man could have

:43:47. > :43:52.the potential to be harmful to your baby? No, none at all. I heard no

:43:53. > :44:00.smoke without fire from certain people. It took to pretty much last

:44:01. > :44:05.month to clear my name completely. Jennie had you ever any doubts about

:44:06. > :44:10.Ben? None, I had seen him with her as a baby. I seen, he wanted to see

:44:11. > :44:14.her every day from the minute she was born and he came to see her,

:44:15. > :44:18.even for a minute, even for ten minutes at the door every day just

:44:19. > :44:23.to give her a kiss. Sir Mark was one of the Appeal Court judges who

:44:24. > :44:27.quashed Ben Butler's 2007 criminal conviction on a legal technicality.

:44:28. > :44:31.He can't talk about that directly, but it was the Family Court that

:44:32. > :44:39.later allowed Ellie home. He has told the BBC that judges there faced

:44:40. > :44:44.the most complex of decisions. They decided in a highly emotive context

:44:45. > :44:47.and decided in a situation where a judge has to make a decision one way

:44:48. > :44:51.or the other. If you get the decision right, fine. If you get it

:44:52. > :44:59.wrong, either way there are serious consequences. But in the Family

:45:00. > :45:03.Court, Mrs Justice Hogg went as far to exonerate Ben Butler. Until then

:45:04. > :45:07.her maternal grandfather looked after her. The court ordered that

:45:08. > :45:10.all files on the family held by the police, health, schools and social

:45:11. > :45:14.workers should clearly say that Ben Butler had been exonerated and the

:45:15. > :45:16.couple, or their solicitor could serve that order on any profession

:45:17. > :45:26.they At Elie's school they found she was

:45:27. > :45:32.often absent. The headteacher said normally there would have involved

:45:33. > :45:36.social workers. There was no local authority involvement because of the

:45:37. > :45:41.family court judgment. All we could do was treat the issue as an

:45:42. > :45:47.attendance issue. The official review into the case concludes the

:45:48. > :45:51.court ruling... Making it difficult for others to protect a little girl

:45:52. > :45:52.described by her teachers as gentle and thoughtful.

:45:53. > :45:54.We can talk now exclusively to Ellie Butler's granddad, Neal Gray,

:45:55. > :46:11.Good morning. Good morning. How do you react to the sentence handed

:46:12. > :46:14.down to Butler yesterday? I am happy they gave him a severe sentence but

:46:15. > :46:18.in my opinion the sentence should have been more severe. He should

:46:19. > :46:26.have had at least 40 years with no remission. And the partner should

:46:27. > :46:30.have had at least 20 years. I think they are both culprits, they caused

:46:31. > :46:35.the death of Elie and they covered it up. It is interesting you say,

:46:36. > :46:42.and so should the partner. That is your daughter. That was my daughter.

:46:43. > :46:48.I have disowned her. You don't think one of your own offspring could be

:46:49. > :47:02.possibly involved in a terrible tragic crime. Unfortunately she was.

:47:03. > :47:11.Do except she was under his control? That he was domineering, abusive,

:47:12. > :47:16.controlling? I understand he was violent and controlling but I thinks

:47:17. > :47:23.-- think she is also capable of being the same with him. I would say

:47:24. > :47:29.it is 50-50. You and your wife, Linda, cared for and nurtured Ellie

:47:30. > :47:41.for five sixths years. Yes. What was she like? Beautiful. Excuse me.

:47:42. > :47:50.Bubbly. A gorgeous little girl. Very brainy. Intelligent. And very

:47:51. > :48:01.loving. She was very clever. She was polite. She liked playing games. She

:48:02. > :48:07.had lots of friends at school. And the story is what Butler and her

:48:08. > :48:10.saying that she was rude and lazy are complete and holds -- order

:48:11. > :48:15.false lies. She was a gorgeous little girl. It is a great

:48:16. > :48:21.privilege, excuse me, to have been a grandparent. And you looked after

:48:22. > :48:27.her, you and Linda looked after her like she was your own daughter. Yes.

:48:28. > :48:33.The reason you had her in your care was because Butler had a conviction

:48:34. > :48:38.for assaulting her, for shaking her when she was six weeks old, which

:48:39. > :48:43.was later quashed, as we know. That is why you were caring for her. Yes.

:48:44. > :48:47.You fought to continue having custody of her when he and her

:48:48. > :48:56.daughter were trying to get custody back, when his conviction was

:48:57. > :49:02.quashed. Yes. From 2007 to 2012, were in court virtually every year

:49:03. > :49:05.at periods of time trying to keep hold of Ellie. Ellie did not want to

:49:06. > :49:13.go back to her parents. Her birth parents. Because she did not know

:49:14. > :49:18.them. At the times they should have got to know Ellie, at the family

:49:19. > :49:25.centre in Sutton, for two and a half years they never turned up to see

:49:26. > :49:30.her. And Butler was very violent. You knew that, did you? You knew

:49:31. > :49:34.what he was like? Yes. He was threatening to my wife and myself

:49:35. > :49:41.and other members of my family. Jenny used to be aggressive and

:49:42. > :49:44.threatening myself and my wife. If we were going to court for something

:49:45. > :49:49.was supposed to have been set, she would talk to my wife and say, if

:49:50. > :49:55.you've got anything to say to your solicitor, you run it through me and

:49:56. > :49:58.Ben before you talk to your solicitor, otherwise you will be

:49:59. > :50:03.looking over your shoulder for the rest of your lives. There were

:50:04. > :50:08.threatening you and trying to control you? Yes. When the judge

:50:09. > :50:14.handed custody back to Butler and your daughter, Jenny Gray, you said

:50:15. > :50:21.you could upload blood on your hands. Why did you say that? I had a

:50:22. > :50:32.premonition that Ellie would not be safe. Mrs Justice Hogg made a big

:50:33. > :50:36.mistake. I don't think she followed proper procedure of the law. She did

:50:37. > :50:42.not give the proper directions for the social workers, who were

:50:43. > :50:46.independent business people. They were independent, work for

:50:47. > :50:53.themselves social workers. Private social workers. They had not read

:50:54. > :50:59.any of the notes. They did not know any history. We have attempted to

:51:00. > :51:03.get a statement from Mrs Justice Hogg. We have not been able to yet.

:51:04. > :51:08.At the time she said Ben Butler was the victim of a miscarriage of

:51:09. > :51:14.justice. She exonerated him. She said he had not assaulted Ellie as a

:51:15. > :51:18.six-week old. Yes, she said that. But I don't think she took any

:51:19. > :51:24.notice of the medical evidence for the social workers, or the local

:51:25. > :51:30.authority children's department. They all knew that Ellie had been

:51:31. > :51:36.assaulted. She also issued this unpublished, onto yesterday, order,

:51:37. > :51:39.this unpublished order that all professional, educational, medical

:51:40. > :51:44.or social care bodies holding any files relating to Ali, must make a

:51:45. > :51:48.prominent reference to the fact that Ben Butler had been exonerated. She

:51:49. > :51:52.also went further than the appeal Court ruling, which had quashed his

:51:53. > :51:58.conviction. She said, look, he is exonerated. That meant it was very

:51:59. > :52:00.hard for you, for the headteacher, for the local authority social

:52:01. > :52:07.workers to try to intervene if you had wanted to? Yes, I did not know

:52:08. > :52:11.that exist until yesterday. How did you react when you found that there

:52:12. > :52:14.was that order? I think it is terrible. I think the laws should be

:52:15. > :52:23.radically changed. And judges should be made accountable either through a

:52:24. > :52:27.proper office -- procedure Ore Home Secretary. After all, they are human

:52:28. > :52:33.beings and they are not above the law. And wonder what you thought

:52:34. > :52:38.when you saw Ben Butler and your daughter on TV, as we saw in that

:52:39. > :52:42.clip, protesting their innocence, saying there had been a victim of a

:52:43. > :52:50.miscarriage of justice? I thought it was a complete and utter joke. After

:52:51. > :52:55.that clip was shown, he got hold of a chap called Max Clifford, a PR

:52:56. > :52:58.guru, who is now also inside. I think their idea was to milk the

:52:59. > :53:10.system for as much money as they could possibly get. It is an utter

:53:11. > :53:19.farce. We know what Butler did on that day that Ellie died. He

:53:20. > :53:22.inflicted awful, awful injuries. In a fit of rage, apparently. And then

:53:23. > :53:29.summoned your daughter home from work to help Ukhov -- her cover

:53:30. > :53:32.things up. Do you believe that your daughter genuinely believed Ellie

:53:33. > :53:40.had died in an accident, which is what his story was? Do I believe

:53:41. > :53:44.that Jenny believes? Yes. I don't believe she did believe she died in

:53:45. > :53:50.an accident. I think she knew what had happened. She knew what he was

:53:51. > :53:56.capable of. Because she had inflicted injuries herself several

:53:57. > :54:02.times through the loss of other children. Why would she cover up the

:54:03. > :54:09.murder of her daughter? I don't know. That is a question I cannot

:54:10. > :54:18.answer. I often sold search myself, and my wife soul searchers, asking

:54:19. > :54:25.why. When you have a child, your number one priority is always the

:54:26. > :54:29.child. Anybody. But it is a father, a mother, grandfather, grandmother,

:54:30. > :54:33.the child is the most important thing in this world, they are

:54:34. > :54:39.precious. It is a privilege to have a child could my eyes. If you have a

:54:40. > :54:44.child, you have got to look after that child completely and utterly.

:54:45. > :54:52.They are the priority of your life. Without it, well, many nasty things

:54:53. > :54:57.could happen, which have happened in the past years. I believe the social

:54:58. > :55:02.services, laws regarding them, have got to be brought into the 21st

:55:03. > :55:05.century. I also believe that the family courts system, as it is

:55:06. > :55:13.today, has got to be changed radically. Brought into the 21st

:55:14. > :55:19.century. You mean less secrecy? Less secrecy, yes. They have opened up a

:55:20. > :55:26.little bit. Open it completely. But on particular cases, keep the

:55:27. > :55:29.child's name anonymous, if that has got to be. The child has got to be

:55:30. > :55:35.protected. That is the most important thing. I don't think the

:55:36. > :55:44.establishment have learned, we have had Baby P, we have had ten murders

:55:45. > :55:48.in the last ten years of children, horrifically gone wrong, so many

:55:49. > :55:52.inadequacies with social services are a family courts. Somebody has

:55:53. > :55:59.got to stand up and make sure that no other child gets hurt like my

:56:00. > :56:07.granddaughter got hurt. And I think that I will make it my goal for the

:56:08. > :56:10.rest of my life to fight for any child to be saved. No child deserves

:56:11. > :56:15.to go through what Ellie went through, or any of the other

:56:16. > :56:20.children that have died. With July to see a public enquiry? Yes I

:56:21. > :56:25.would. Very much. -- would you like to see. Your wife, Linda, died in

:56:26. > :56:31.the first day of the trial. She has not been here to see justice, to see

:56:32. > :56:37.the man punished, to see your daughter punished. And I understand

:56:38. > :56:43.Jenny Gray didn't know that your wife had died, is that right, until

:56:44. > :56:47.yesterday? That is right. My wife, in the last few days, she asked to

:56:48. > :56:56.see the priest at the hospital, the Marsden in Sutton. She asked to

:56:57. > :57:02.speak to a policeman. A very kind police liaison officer. She stated

:57:03. > :57:07.she did not want Jenny to know that she had cancer. And she didn't want

:57:08. > :57:16.to know that she had died. That was her wish, because she said she

:57:17. > :57:19.doesn't deserve to know. We are showing our audiences picture of

:57:20. > :57:24.Linda now. She was clear she did not want her daughter to know? Al are

:57:25. > :57:32.no. She could never forgive her for what he had done to Ali. -- Ellie.

:57:33. > :57:37.If it is all right with you, I want to play a little bit of the 999 call

:57:38. > :57:43.played in court. This is the call that Jenny Gray and Butler made to

:57:44. > :57:44.the emergency services when they were pretending to try to save

:57:45. > :57:58.Ellie's life. Listen to me now, my daughter is not

:57:59. > :58:08.breathing properly. You need to calm down and stop shouting. I cannot

:58:09. > :58:12.hear you. What has happened? I need you to stop shouting because I

:58:13. > :58:21.cannot hear you. Tell me what to do, please! I don't know what is

:58:22. > :58:25.happening, my love. Brilliant. Keep doing that. You are doing a really

:58:26. > :58:30.good job. What do you think of that? I think

:58:31. > :58:38.it was all states. Like a play on a stage. -- all staged. All acted out.

:58:39. > :58:45.You have to be a particular kind of person to be able to act that out,

:58:46. > :58:48.haven't you? Yes, terrible. The judge described Ben Butler as self

:58:49. > :58:55.absorbed, ill tempered, domineering, a man who regarded his child and

:58:56. > :58:59.partner as trophies, having no role other than to fit in with his

:59:00. > :59:04.infantile and sentimentalised view of family life, with him as the

:59:05. > :59:15.patriarch whose every whim had to be catered for. How would you describe

:59:16. > :59:19.Ben Butler? Evil. Pure evil. He can... Just one nasty, horrible

:59:20. > :59:27.person, who is now taken off the streets. And hopefully made an

:59:28. > :59:34.example of. And maybe the police can catch other people who do this kind

:59:35. > :59:37.of thing. I know, finally, you do want to thank the police and all the

:59:38. > :59:49.people who have helped you? Yes. Excuse me. I would like to thank the

:59:50. > :59:55.homicide team who, through this three years, have supported my wife,

:59:56. > :00:03.my family at every stage of their commitment to this order. And I'm

:00:04. > :00:09.very grateful for their help and devotion of duty for what they have

:00:10. > :00:14.done. And most of all, they kept my family and I completely in touch at

:00:15. > :00:19.every stage where they could. I would also like to thank the Victim

:00:20. > :00:25.Support people for their support for my wife, myself, my family. Without

:00:26. > :00:29.either of them, I don't know if I would be here today.

:00:30. > :00:35.We have got some lovely messages from people listening to. Harry

:00:36. > :00:43.Tweets this. This is a moving tribute to Ali. This tweet from

:00:44. > :00:48.Jane, this is devastating. Another says, oh my goodness, it is so sad

:00:49. > :00:52.to hear Ellie Butler's grandfather. And John says, a public enquiry is a

:00:53. > :00:57.good idea and I'm ready sorry for your loss. I'm very grateful for

:00:58. > :01:08.everybody's support. Also my community where I live in

:01:09. > :01:10.Warrington. # raez Sorry. The people in my community have been absolutely

:01:11. > :01:24.fantastic. I cannot thank the police enough and

:01:25. > :01:29.the Victim Support. Some news, this is just reaching us

:01:30. > :01:37.here on the programme. It is to do with Rory McIlroy. Rory McIlroy says

:01:38. > :01:44.he will not be taking part in the Rio Olympics because of concerns

:01:45. > :01:49.over the Zika virus. Rory McIlroy says he won't be going to the Rio

:01:50. > :01:52.Games because of concerns over the Zika virus. It is time for the

:01:53. > :02:01.weather and here is Carol. We have got three zones, showers and

:02:02. > :02:05.sunshine across Northern Ireland and the same across Scotland. This

:02:06. > :02:08.weather front is introducing thicker cloud and rain. Muggy conditions to

:02:09. > :02:12.the south of that and the South East. And drier conditions across

:02:13. > :02:17.Northern England. Again, with bright or sunny skies. As we head through

:02:18. > :02:22.this evening and overnight, we are expecting some torrential thundery

:02:23. > :02:26.downpours. They could lead to localised flooding issues and you

:02:27. > :02:29.can find out more on your local radio station. You can see how they

:02:30. > :02:36.develop moving up the south-eastern quarter of the UK across Essex,

:02:37. > :02:38.Sussex and Kent. Away from that, we have got drier conditions and fewer

:02:39. > :02:42.showers, but it will be a muggy night. That leads us into the start

:02:43. > :02:46.of tomorrow. Once again, all those thunderstorms to start the day

:02:47. > :02:50.pushing away for a time. They will be replaced later on from the south

:02:51. > :02:52.later on as temperatures rise. Still the south-eastern quarter of the

:02:53. > :02:56.country that's likely to be affected. North of that, we are back

:02:57. > :03:00.into bright spells, sunshine and showers. Temperatures in the north

:03:01. > :03:06.up to 20 Celsius in Newcastle, but 24 Celsius in London.

:03:07. > :03:11.I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme

:03:12. > :03:18.It's the final push a day ahead of the crucial decision on the UK's

:03:19. > :03:20.place in Europe - the last arguments are being made

:03:21. > :03:27.The UK will be in the back of the queue. I think the American

:03:28. > :03:30.president is coming out with the same rubbish that David Cameron is

:03:31. > :03:35.coming out. Uncontrolled numbers coming in here, not only depress

:03:36. > :03:37.wages for working people. Nor do you control and address people's

:03:38. > :03:43.concerns about immigration with scare stories.

:03:44. > :03:48.After the vote tomorrow, then what The polls close at 10pm. That's your

:03:49. > :03:54.last chance to vote. The results start coming in at 2am. Final

:03:55. > :03:59.breakfast time. Set your alarm for 7am!

:04:00. > :04:00.Six-year-old Ellie Butler's grandfather tells us,

:04:01. > :04:03.in an exclusive interview, that the justice system

:04:04. > :04:10.failed his grand-daughter and judges need to be held accountable.

:04:11. > :04:17.I will make it my goal for the rest of my life to fight for any child to

:04:18. > :04:20.be saved because no child deserves to go through what Ellie went

:04:21. > :04:27.through or any of the other children that died in the last year.

:04:28. > :04:29.We will bring you more reaction to that interview before 11am.

:04:30. > :04:32.We'll be hearing from Sir Cliff Richard who's calling

:04:33. > :04:35.for a change to the law so that people accused of sexual offences

:04:36. > :04:42.have their identity protected until they are charged.

:04:43. > :04:49.The name never should be out there unless you have been charged and

:04:50. > :04:54.here I am 22 months and week later and no charge. I don't like the idea

:04:55. > :04:58.of being collateral damage and that's what I have been for 22

:04:59. > :05:02.months. Good morning from Paris. Northern

:05:03. > :05:05.Ireland fans are still recovering after their team was beaten last

:05:06. > :05:10.night, but made it through to the next round at the Euros. Coming up

:05:11. > :05:14.in the sport, we will have the latest on Rory McIlroy's decision on

:05:15. > :05:18.not to go to the Olympics because of the Zika virus.

:05:19. > :05:26.Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:05:27. > :05:28.It's the final day of campaigning before we get to decide

:05:29. > :05:32.whether we should stay or leave the European Union.

:05:33. > :05:34.Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch

:05:35. > :05:37.Speaking this morning David Cameron says he doesn't believe

:05:38. > :05:40.there are any risks to the UK to staying in the EU.

:05:41. > :05:42.Meanwhile Leave campaigner Boris Johnson, who's on a whirlwind

:05:43. > :05:44.tour of England, says it's time for a "totally

:05:45. > :05:51.new relationship with our partners across the channel".

:05:52. > :05:53.The grandfather of Ellie Butler has told this programme

:05:54. > :05:56.there should be a public inquiry into the circumstances that led up

:05:57. > :05:59.Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found

:06:00. > :06:07.He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter

:06:08. > :06:09.at their home in south-west London in October 2013.

:06:10. > :06:12.She died less than a year after she was returned

:06:13. > :06:14.to her parents' care following a custody battle.

:06:15. > :06:16.A High Court judge sided with the couple despite objections

:06:17. > :06:28.In his first television interview, Neal Gray,

:06:29. > :06:40.Said he was worried that Ellie was in danger. I think Justice Hogg made

:06:41. > :06:43.Yeah, yeah, that's the name. Mrs Justice Hogg made a big mistake. I

:06:44. > :06:47.don't think she followed proper procedure of the law. She didn't

:06:48. > :06:51.give the proper direction from the social workers who were independent

:06:52. > :06:55.business people, you know, they were independent, they worked for

:06:56. > :06:59.themselves social workers. They were private social workers as opposed to

:07:00. > :07:03.the local authority. They weren't allowed to look at any history less

:07:04. > :07:06.than three months prior to them taking over.

:07:07. > :07:09.Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due

:07:10. > :07:12.Organisers say current wet weather and ground conditions

:07:13. > :07:20.People have reported queuing for more than five hours to get on to

:07:21. > :07:23.the site. More than 100,000 people

:07:24. > :07:25.are expected to descend on Worthy Farm for

:07:26. > :07:31.the five-day event. I had a tweet from a friend who said

:07:32. > :07:37.it was carnage at Glastonbury! Do get in touch with us

:07:38. > :07:39.throughout the morning. Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

:07:40. > :07:46.and If you text, you will be charged You were watching the interview with

:07:47. > :07:52.Neal Gray the grandfather of Ellie Butler. Emma says, "A heartbreaking

:07:53. > :07:59.interview on hashtag Victoria Live now. Ellie Butler's grandfather is a

:08:00. > :08:05.brave man." This viewer says, "What an amazing man on your programme.

:08:06. > :08:09.All the best to him for the future." Emmy says, "Children are precious

:08:10. > :08:15.and should always come first. He is right, it is so true." This tweet

:08:16. > :08:18.from Andy, "I'm in bits. What a brave man Ellie Butler's grandad is.

:08:19. > :08:22.I hope he finds peace." Thank you for those.

:08:23. > :08:31.Thank you, Victoria. Good morning, we're going to bring you up-to-date

:08:32. > :08:37.with the Euros. The breaking news that you mentioned a moment ago,

:08:38. > :08:43.Victoria. The golfer Rory McIlroy announced he will withdraw with the

:08:44. > :08:47.Rishtion io Olympicsment McIlroy was in Paris to watch Northern Ireland

:08:48. > :08:50.play Germany, but he has decided into the to play in the Games

:08:51. > :08:58.because of concerns about the Zika virus. He is one of a number of

:08:59. > :09:03.high-profile golfers to pull out. Adam Scott and Vijay Singh are the

:09:04. > :09:07.others. He says, "After speaking with those closest to me. I have

:09:08. > :09:10.come to realise that my health and my family's health comes before

:09:11. > :09:16.anything else, even though the risk of infection from the Zika virus is

:09:17. > :09:20.low, it is a risk nonetheless and a risk I am unwilling to take. I trust

:09:21. > :09:26.the Irish people will understand my decision." Just to recap, that is

:09:27. > :09:31.Rory McIlroy and the announcement that he won't be going to Rio.

:09:32. > :09:35.Disappointing news for him, but he was probably quite a lot happier in

:09:36. > :09:40.France last night where he watched Northern Ireland play their way into

:09:41. > :09:46.the round of 16. They were beaten 1-0 by the world champions Germany,

:09:47. > :09:49.but a huge performance from their goalkeeper Michael McGovern kept the

:09:50. > :09:54.score more than respectable. After other results last night they are

:09:55. > :09:57.still in the competition! So a happy Northern Ireland camp. Not so for

:09:58. > :10:01.the England team, it seems. Today's back pages are full of stories about

:10:02. > :10:06.possible disquiet about the changes Roy Hodgson made to the team for the

:10:07. > :10:12.final group game. Olly Foster joins us now. Olly, is the backlash

:10:13. > :10:18.beginning, is it all starting to go wrong for Roy? Well, it went wrong a

:10:19. > :10:24.couple of nights ago. Good morning, Sally. A glorious morning here in

:10:25. > :10:29.Chantilly, that backfired the changes. You make six changes and

:10:30. > :10:34.Roy Hodgson was expected to win that match, but there was no discernible

:10:35. > :10:38.change in pattern or pace and tempo and certainly, dropping the captain

:10:39. > :10:44.Wayne Rooney, that was something that raised a lot of eyebrows

:10:45. > :10:48.against Slovakia and Jack Wilshere really didn't fill that hole and

:10:49. > :10:53.when Rooney came on things changed, but not quickly enough. So the

:10:54. > :10:57.permutations now is that England are now in limbo really. Knowing that

:10:58. > :11:02.they're going off to Nice on Monday, but who they face, well, we'll find

:11:03. > :11:06.out later. The players have been given time off today. Some have gone

:11:07. > :11:13.shopping in Paris. Some may attend race day behind me at the fantastic

:11:14. > :11:18.Chantilly racecourse, they are trying to work out what the best 11

:11:19. > :11:22.is. Just like the rest of us! Olly,

:11:23. > :11:28.thank you very much indeed. That's all for now. The breaking story this

:11:29. > :11:35.hour, which is the news that Rory McIlroy, the golfer has withdrawn

:11:36. > :11:40.from the Rio Games because of concerns over the Zika virus.

:11:41. > :11:46.STUDIO: It will be interesting to see if other athletes choose to

:11:47. > :11:47.follow his leadment

:11:48. > :11:59.Both sides i leadment n the EU referendum

:12:00. > :12:02.Both sides in the EU referendum debate are making their final

:12:03. > :12:03.pitches on the last day of campaigning.

:12:04. > :12:06.Putting the case to remain, David Cameron said that by staying

:12:07. > :12:07.in, Britain had the best of both worlds.

:12:08. > :12:16.I will decide our future in Europe through an in-out referendum on

:12:17. > :12:20.Thursday, 23rd June. The home you live in, your weekly

:12:21. > :12:27.shop, your monthly bills, these things are all at risk. Why are we

:12:28. > :12:31.sending ?10 billion a year net to Brussels some of which is spent on

:12:32. > :12:34.Spanish bull fighting. The real show tonight isn't in Brussels, but it is

:12:35. > :12:41.here in Westminster. That's down to... Overregulating. Air fairy.

:12:42. > :12:49.What matters is holiday pay... For the United Kingdom. Remain. Leave.

:12:50. > :12:53.After a great deal of heartache, I don't think there is anything else I

:12:54. > :12:57.can do. I will be advocating vote leave. If people vote to leave on

:12:58. > :13:01.the basis of immigration I'm afraid they'll find they will be in the

:13:02. > :13:06.same situation. What our judgment is, is a risk. The governor strayed

:13:07. > :13:09.now into the expression of what is a simple, personal prediction. I think

:13:10. > :13:14.it is appalling that the people who want to drag the United Kingdom out

:13:15. > :13:23.of the European Union are now trying to drag the Queen in... Louis and

:13:24. > :13:26.Hitler were trying to create a United States of Europe. We're

:13:27. > :13:31.losing our identity and we are suddenly just going to get swallowed

:13:32. > :13:34.up. I'm positive on the EU. The UK is going to be in the back of the

:13:35. > :13:38.queue. I think the American president is coming out with the

:13:39. > :13:42.same rubbish that David Cameron is coming out with. I am angry at the

:13:43. > :13:47.way the British people are being misled. Uncontrolled numbers coming

:13:48. > :13:56.in, not only depress wages for working people. With scare

:13:57. > :14:02.stories... You are no fisherman's friend. You are on the European

:14:03. > :14:09.Parliament fishing committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings.

:14:10. > :14:13.You're a fraud, Nigel. What Mr Geldof did was show his contempt for

:14:14. > :14:17.the men and women that have come here today.

:14:18. > :14:21.# One way or another I'm going to find you, I'm going to get you one

:14:22. > :14:26.way or another. # I'm going to... #

:14:27. > :14:31.I'm campaigning to remain in the European Union.

:14:32. > :14:35.This city wouldn't be what it is without immigrants. The question

:14:36. > :14:39.is... Immigrants built this city. Oh, you don't want to listen, right.

:14:40. > :14:44.People are going to bring this country forward in the future, but

:14:45. > :15:36.you're not. Anyway, have a leaflet. Thanks.

:15:37. > :16:08.So in just 21 hours the polls will be open and you will get to cast

:16:09. > :16:13.your vote. Then what happens? When do we get a result? What could

:16:14. > :16:22.follow in the coming hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades,

:16:23. > :16:26.lifetime? Norman Smith joins me. All of the big broadcasters are setting

:16:27. > :16:33.up their portable makeshift studios for what is going to be a global

:16:34. > :16:38.news story. A massive story not just here in Britain, but frankly, around

:16:39. > :16:44.the world. Let's look at the timetable from tomorrow night. Ten

:16:45. > :16:49.o'clock is when the polls close. If you have not voted by then, my

:16:50. > :16:53.friend, you are out of time. They will not be any exit polls for this

:16:54. > :16:59.referendum because the pollsters say they have nothing to base it on. At

:17:00. > :17:02.two o'clock we will get the result is beginning to come through. They

:17:03. > :17:08.will be announced by local councils first. Those will trick on through

:17:09. > :17:12.the night. At six o'clock, pundits, I think we'll be in a position where

:17:13. > :17:18.they can start to call this result, to suggest which way it may be

:17:19. > :17:23.shifting. You will probably have to wait until about 7:30am for the

:17:24. > :17:27.official result from Manchester town Hall, when we will know whether we

:17:28. > :17:32.have taken the momentous decision to leave the European Union or whether

:17:33. > :17:35.we are going to stay in. I guess one of the questions which is going to

:17:36. > :17:42.crop up straightaway is, what happens to the Prime Minister rock?

:17:43. > :17:45.-- Prime Minister? Both Boris Johnson and David Cameron have been

:17:46. > :17:50.clear he will carry on whatever the result. I will accept the verdict of

:17:51. > :17:53.the British people. If they vote to remain, we will remain in the

:17:54. > :17:56.European Union, the process of reform continues and we wake up on

:17:57. > :18:01.Friday knowing that investment and jobs and the dividend will come to

:18:02. > :18:05.our country. If we vote to leave, I will carry out that instruction from

:18:06. > :18:08.the British people. That is what I said at the general election, that

:18:09. > :18:13.is what was in our manifesto and that is what I will do. Whatever

:18:14. > :18:19.happens at the end of this, and I have said this to the Prime

:18:20. > :18:22.Minister, he has got to stay. The battalions of the argument are

:18:23. > :18:28.unquestionably ranged against people like me. We are per trade as crazy,

:18:29. > :18:33.cracked and the rest of it. I don't mind. I happen to think that I am

:18:34. > :18:39.right. It is a very difficult case to make. I have thought a lot about

:18:40. > :18:46.it for many years. Let's go through the different scenarios, depending

:18:47. > :18:50.what happens tomorrow morning. The first scenario, Mr Cameron bursts

:18:51. > :18:56.through the finishing tape, Remain win, the nation votes to stay in the

:18:57. > :19:00.European Union. What happens? A statement from Mr Cameron on the

:19:01. > :19:04.steps of Downing Street is likely pretty much as soon as we get the

:19:05. > :19:09.result. He will stress how the nation has spoken, the decision has

:19:10. > :19:11.been made, it is a once-in-a-lifetime generation. Then

:19:12. > :19:19.over the next few days and weeks, reshuffle may be. Will Mr Cameron

:19:20. > :19:24.seek a revenge reshuffle? Willingly seek to knife his treacherous

:19:25. > :19:27.cabinet vote will it be a reconciliation reshuffle? Will easy

:19:28. > :19:33.to bring in people like Boris Johnson? The other option runs

:19:34. > :19:37.towards a unity agenda. Will Mr Cameron bring forward policies which

:19:38. > :19:42.his party can rally around in the wake of this divisive contest?

:19:43. > :19:46.Perhaps he will call a controversial vote on Trident, which is party can

:19:47. > :19:51.unite around but it may embarrass Labour. The second scenario, what if

:19:52. > :19:59.Boris Johnson and the Brexiteer 's burst through the finishing tape

:20:00. > :20:03.first. What if we vote to leave? New leader would seem very likely

:20:04. > :20:06.despite Mr Cameron's protestations that he will stay. The most likely

:20:07. > :20:13.candidate, probably one Boris Johnson. But also they would have to

:20:14. > :20:16.be a new deal. We would have to begin negotiations with the rest of

:20:17. > :20:20.Europe because we would not longer be in the single market. We would

:20:21. > :20:25.have to work out what sort of a trading arrangement we are bound to

:20:26. > :20:28.have with the rest of Europe. Finally, new world because other EU

:20:29. > :20:34.countries may also decide, if Britain has left, we want out, too.

:20:35. > :20:39.It could lead to a total reshaping, even collapse of the European Union,

:20:40. > :20:44.a change in the nature of global relations. There is a third

:20:45. > :20:50.scenario. And that is a narrow, squeaky win for Mr Cameron. Both he

:20:51. > :20:58.and Boris Johnson are neck and neck at the finishing tape. What happens

:20:59. > :21:02.then? Plots galore. Expect Tory MPs to be manoeuvring, trying to ease Mr

:21:03. > :21:08.Cameron out, trying to push Boris Johnson into power. There is the

:21:09. > :21:12.danger of a zombie parliament because some of Mr Cameron's critics

:21:13. > :21:17.on the Tory benches may simply refuse to go along with any policy

:21:18. > :21:21.to our legislation he proposes, and parliament could be reduced to a

:21:22. > :21:27.zombie status unable to do anything. That might lead to a general

:21:28. > :21:32.election. Maybe Mr Cameron would decide enough is enough, I cannot go

:21:33. > :21:36.on like this, let's call a snap general election. If Boris 's

:21:37. > :21:40.leader, he may want his own mandate. He could demand a general election.

:21:41. > :21:46.We could see a general election before the end of the year. Tomorrow

:21:47. > :21:50.is obviously a momentous moment. But do not think the political upheaval

:21:51. > :21:53.and turmoil and change is necessarily going to end tomorrow

:21:54. > :22:00.night. Wow! General election by the end of

:22:01. > :22:04.the year. Oh, my word. Tomorrow is not the first time the British

:22:05. > :22:16.public have had the opportunity to decide whether we become -- we're

:22:17. > :22:20.part of the EU. Back then, the UK chose to remain. Throughout this

:22:21. > :22:26.campaign I have said, I think we have all said, that in the community

:22:27. > :22:31.or outside the community, Britain's future depends on our own efforts

:22:32. > :22:37.here, our own inventiveness, our skill, our technology and restraint.

:22:38. > :22:41.As always in the past but now as never before, Britain depends on the

:22:42. > :22:48.efforts we make in our trade and in our industry, and the contribution

:22:49. > :22:52.everyone of us to that effort. How many of those who voted 40 odd years

:22:53. > :22:59.ago would vote the same way this time around? Let's vote to Kevin

:23:00. > :23:03.Mulloy, who voted to stay in the EU. And June Bennett, who voted for

:23:04. > :23:11.Britain to leave in the referendum. Good morning. Kevin, it was Remain

:23:12. > :23:15.for you in 1975. What about now? It was a hard decision this time. I

:23:16. > :23:23.spent several weeks agonising over it. I took into account,

:23:24. > :23:30.sovereignty, EU immigration... I decided to remain. Jean, what about

:23:31. > :23:35.you? Tomorrow I will be voting to leave. When we originally voted, we

:23:36. > :23:42.voted to join, which is different to what it is now. How I felt then was,

:23:43. > :23:45.we were OK, we could do business across the world, there was no

:23:46. > :23:52.problem. Now there seems to be a lot of difficulties for the

:23:53. > :23:54.small-business people who make up to 90% of employers in the private

:23:55. > :24:01.sector, and they have horrendous problems. One instance is some

:24:02. > :24:08.people I know who supply chemicals for swimming pools. The small

:24:09. > :24:18.companies in England who would supply them can no longer afford to

:24:19. > :24:21.because they have two apply under regulations, which will cost them

:24:22. > :24:26.tens of thousands of pounds, which small businesses do not have. So

:24:27. > :24:29.they are either closing down going into insolvency, and there is just

:24:30. > :24:37.one company which now supplies, a large company based in Switzerland.

:24:38. > :24:41.The consequence is that the product is four times more expensive and the

:24:42. > :24:47.end product, the price has quadrupled. That cannot be right and

:24:48. > :24:51.that cannot be the only time this is happening. Kevan, do you think you

:24:52. > :25:00.made the right decision last time when you voted to remain?

:25:01. > :25:07.Definitely. No doubt about it. Since then, the Iron Curtain has come

:25:08. > :25:11.down. Access and into the EU nations has been achieved by Poland and a

:25:12. > :25:15.number of European -- eastern European countries. It is a more

:25:16. > :25:19.complicated situation. You get freedom of movement, which you did

:25:20. > :25:26.not originally have. It was quite an agonising choice. But in the end I

:25:27. > :25:30.looked at both campaigns, and by the way I am not supporting or

:25:31. > :25:37.denigrating either campaign, I looked at it and the final question

:25:38. > :25:41.I asked myself was, from the campaigns, which side, if any, is

:25:42. > :25:45.actually quoting other authorities and other sources? And which side,

:25:46. > :25:51.if any, is just quoting about itself and what it thinks? I came to the

:25:52. > :25:55.conclusion that on the Remain side there are facts and figures that

:25:56. > :26:07.have been put down, some of them are projections, admittedly. On the

:26:08. > :26:10.Remain side... The Leave side were not citing any authorities. There

:26:11. > :26:15.was not really anything that I could pin the tail on the donkey. There

:26:16. > :26:21.was no donkey to put in -- pin the tail on, put it that way. In the end

:26:22. > :26:24.I felt Remain was a safe bet. If we do not leave now, there is nothing

:26:25. > :26:29.to say we could not leave and five or ten years. We could have another

:26:30. > :26:34.referendum. If we do leave now, it is a mistake. There is no way we

:26:35. > :26:40.would get back the rebates, the opt out to that we have been granted.

:26:41. > :26:45.Thank you both very much. June Bennett who will vote tomorrow to

:26:46. > :26:50.leave the European Union, as she did in 1975. And Kevin Mulloy, who has

:26:51. > :26:55.already voted to remain in the EU, like he did in 75.

:26:56. > :26:58.Sir Cliff Richard says he may take legal action against South Yorkshire

:26:59. > :27:01.police and the BBC for the way they pursued and reported

:27:02. > :27:10.unfounded allegations against him of sexual abuse.

:27:11. > :27:15.He believes there must have been illegal collusion between the events

:27:16. > :27:17.which led to a police raid of his home being broadcast on BBC News.

:27:18. > :27:31.This must be an enormous relief? To get the news a couple of days ago

:27:32. > :27:36.telling me that it was good news from the CPS was just fantastic. It

:27:37. > :27:43.is very difficult for me to explain to people what it felt like for me

:27:44. > :27:47.to be an innocent. But having these vile accusations thrown at me. The

:27:48. > :27:53.wording is insufficient evidence to prosecute. The CPS, it is what they

:27:54. > :28:00.do. There are certain terminologies they have two use. In this case if

:28:01. > :28:05.they -- they never say there is no evidence. They just say insufficient

:28:06. > :28:09.evidence. Nothing on which we can prosecute. In a way I still feel

:28:10. > :28:14.tarnished. Insufficient suggests that maybe there is something there.

:28:15. > :28:22.I know there isn't. I have had to to years of traumatic emotional trauma

:28:23. > :28:25.to get over. Do you think the laws should be changed to protect the

:28:26. > :28:32.identity of those who are accused? The Levenson report, that is a

:28:33. > :28:36.guideline Fathi police should behave. It says, except in

:28:37. > :28:42.exceptional circumstances, people should never be named unless they

:28:43. > :28:50.are charged. In the case of people like myself or anybody that is not

:28:51. > :28:54.charged... The name should never be out there, unless you have been

:28:55. > :29:02.charged. And here I am, 22 months and a week later, no charge. I do

:29:03. > :29:07.not like the idea of being collateral damage. And that is what

:29:08. > :29:12.I have been for 22 months. You want to campaign for the Lord to be

:29:13. > :29:18.changed on those who are accused. Do you think those who accuse should

:29:19. > :29:22.have anonymity for life? I can understand protecting children. But

:29:23. > :29:26.my accusers are all men, grown-up men. Probably in their 40s and 50s.

:29:27. > :29:31.I don't see why they should be protected. What about the police and

:29:32. > :29:35.how you were treated? And what about the BBC? There must have been

:29:36. > :29:42.illegal collusion. I have never known, I don't think, investigations

:29:43. > :29:46.take place with lighting and cameras and special angles for the

:29:47. > :29:53.helicopter. It seemed ridiculous. I feel I have every right to sue for

:29:54. > :29:59.the gross invasion of my privacy. Has it changed the way you trust

:30:00. > :30:03.people? To a certain extent, yes. I am cagey having pictures taken with

:30:04. > :30:06.people. I have always had photographs taken with grandparents

:30:07. > :30:11.and their grandchildren. I have had my arms around the grandchildren. I

:30:12. > :30:16.am a family entertainer. That is what I do. That is one thing I'm

:30:17. > :30:21.going to have to try to get rid of. Cliff Richard. Still to come, Ellie

:30:22. > :30:25.Butler's grandfather tells us he will fight so that no other child

:30:26. > :30:28.has to suffer like his granddaughter. In the next 30

:30:29. > :30:34.minutes, we will talk about the control early's murderer, Ben

:30:35. > :30:38.Butler, exerted over his family. And the mystery of the missing

:30:39. > :30:44.children's author. Friends plead for her safe return.

:30:45. > :30:49.With the news, here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom.

:30:50. > :30:54.It's the final day of campaigning before we get to decide

:30:55. > :30:59.whether we should stay in or leave the European Union.

:31:00. > :31:01.Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch

:31:02. > :31:04.Speaking this morning David Cameron says he doesn't believe

:31:05. > :31:07.there are any risks to the UK to staying in the EU.

:31:08. > :31:09.Meanwhile Leave campaigner, Boris Johnson, who's on a whirlwind

:31:10. > :31:11.tour of England, says it's time for a "totally

:31:12. > :31:14.new relationship with our partners across the channel".

:31:15. > :31:16.The grandfather of Ellie Butler has told this programme

:31:17. > :31:19.there should be a public inquiry into the circumstances that led up

:31:20. > :31:22.Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found

:31:23. > :31:29.He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter

:31:30. > :31:32.at their home in south-west London in October 2013.

:31:33. > :31:34.She died less than a year after she was returned

:31:35. > :31:36.to her parents' care following a custody battle.

:31:37. > :31:39.A High Court judge sided with the couple despite objections

:31:40. > :31:46.Ellie's grandfather, Neal Gray, told Victoria he was worried

:31:47. > :32:00.I just had a premonition that Ellie wouldn't be safe. And I think

:32:01. > :32:06.Justice Hogg made... Yeah, yeah, that's the name. I think Mrs Justice

:32:07. > :32:10.Hogg made a big mistake. I don't think she followed proper procedure

:32:11. > :32:12.of the law. She didn't give proper direction from the social workers

:32:13. > :32:15.who were independent business people, you know, they were

:32:16. > :32:19.independent they worked for themselves, social workers. Yeah,

:32:20. > :32:25.they were private social workers as opposed to the local authority. They

:32:26. > :32:31.hadn't read the notes or they weren't allowed to look at any

:32:32. > :32:33.history three months prior to them taking over.

:32:34. > :32:36.Rory McIlroy has pulled out of competing at this summer's

:32:37. > :32:38.Olympic Games in Rio over concerns about the Zika virus.

:32:39. > :32:41.The world number four golfer says although the risk of infection

:32:42. > :32:43.is considered low, it's not one he's prepared to take.

:32:44. > :32:46.In a statement Mcllroy says his and his family's health

:32:47. > :32:49.Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due

:32:50. > :32:52.Organisers said current wet weather and ground

:32:53. > :32:55.People have reported queuing for more than five hours

:32:56. > :33:05.More than 100,000 people are expected to descend on Worthy Farm

:33:06. > :33:13.A local MP tweeted to say he hasn't seen it this bad for years and Mr

:33:14. > :33:15.Write to festival organiser Michael Eavis.

:33:16. > :33:19.Our correspondent Fiona Lamdin has managed to get on site.

:33:20. > :33:24.What's it like? A couple of tents are slowly going up. These are the

:33:25. > :33:30.lucky people who have managed to get in. Yes, as you say, gridlock

:33:31. > :33:34.outside the festival. They have asked people not to travel if they

:33:35. > :33:38.come today and if you are live locally, you have been asked not to

:33:39. > :33:41.travel unless it is urgent. The rain, it is taking hours for people

:33:42. > :33:45.to park and these guys left Sheffield and you say it took you 16

:33:46. > :33:51.hours to get here. Tell us about your trip here. Well, we set off at

:33:52. > :33:57.six o'clock and we got outside festival at 10.30 and we didn't move

:33:58. > :34:06.this morning until 8am and that's how long it took. It was all because

:34:07. > :34:10.of traffic in car park. Yesterday I saw the car parks, they were like

:34:11. > :34:13.lakesment tell me what the car park was like when you got out this

:34:14. > :34:17.morning? It wasn't actually that bad. We were in the camper van

:34:18. > :34:22.fields because our friend who had to have a sleep because he no sleep for

:34:23. > :34:26.16 odd hours. We have come down in the camper van. The camper van

:34:27. > :34:31.fields aren't too badmed we are not sure what the car parks are like,

:34:32. > :34:36.but the camper van fields were bad. The people were bringing the trucks

:34:37. > :34:40.to bring all the cars in. OK, well you are the lucky ones that managed

:34:41. > :34:46.to get here. They may have queued for hours, but they have a fantastic

:34:47. > :34:48.spot of the Pyramid Stage. Well, that's good at least. I hope

:34:49. > :34:49.they have a good time! Join me for BBC

:34:50. > :34:53.Newsroom Live at 11am. Here's some sport now

:34:54. > :35:03.with Sally in Paris. Good morning. It is a beautiful day

:35:04. > :35:08.here in Paris especially if you're a Northern Ireland fan. They made it

:35:09. > :35:12.through to the last 16 last night despite a 1-0 defeat to Germany. A

:35:13. > :35:16.heavier defeat would have seen them go out, but their goalkeeper,

:35:17. > :35:19.Michael McGovern performed heroics to take them through to the

:35:20. > :35:23.knowledge-out stages where they could face Wales. Disharmony in the

:35:24. > :35:28.England camp perhaps. Reports suggest that some weren't happy with

:35:29. > :35:35.the changes manager Roy Hodgson made for the final group game against

:35:36. > :35:41.Slovakia. The Football League fixtures are out. Fulham face a trip

:35:42. > :35:44.to Newcastle. And Andy Murray has been named second seed in the men's

:35:45. > :35:47.draw for this year's Wimbledon tournament which starts on Monday.

:35:48. > :35:53.Novak Djokovic is the number one seed. Britain's Johanna Konta is

:35:54. > :35:56.seeded 17th in the women's draw. That's your sport. More in the next

:35:57. > :36:03.hour. Thank you very much.

:36:04. > :36:07.Nexts the mystery of the missing writer.

:36:08. > :36:10.Helen Bailey is a children's author who wrote the Electra Brown series.

:36:11. > :36:12.The 51-year-old disappeared from her home 11 weeks ago.

:36:13. > :36:14.She'd gone for a walk with her miniature dachshund Boris

:36:15. > :36:19.and had reportedly said she "needed a little time to herself".

:36:20. > :36:21.Police have ruled out foul play, but what happened

:36:22. > :36:29.Our reporter James Longman has been talking to those who knew her.

:36:30. > :36:35.Tell us more Helen Bailey missing since 11th April. People are

:36:36. > :36:38.wondering what happened to her because it peaked their interests

:36:39. > :36:42.because she left this note saying she needed some time to herself. Not

:36:43. > :36:45.just because she is a children's author, but because she left this

:36:46. > :36:48.particular note and people are wondering why she may have left a

:36:49. > :36:55.note and they are pointing to her blog. She blogs on bereavement. Her

:36:56. > :36:59.husband died five years ago and she writes this blog called Planet Grief

:37:00. > :37:03.and she has written about how much his death affected her. Her friends

:37:04. > :37:07.wondered if there was a resurgence of grief. After two and a bit months

:37:08. > :37:11.her friends are saying it is uncharacteristic of her to not have

:37:12. > :37:14.got in touch. The police have put out appeals. They have even asked

:37:15. > :37:20.football fans to get in touch because she was a big Arsenal

:37:21. > :37:24.supporter. She was a season ticket holder at Arsenal and she has been

:37:25. > :37:29.seen with Arsene Wenger she met him in 2012ment her friends put together

:37:30. > :37:33.a Facebook page. It is called Where Is Helen Bailey. Over 80,000 people

:37:34. > :37:35.have looked at that page. There are still a lot of unanswered questions

:37:36. > :37:43.as I've been finding out. It's a mystery that's

:37:44. > :37:45.left everyone baffled. A woman and her dog leave home one

:37:46. > :37:48.day and never come back. This is Royston in Hertfordshire

:37:49. > :37:52.and it's where Helen Bailey lives. She was last seen over two

:37:53. > :37:55.months ago, but she hasn't Helen Bailey is a children's author

:37:56. > :38:02.and blogger and behind On 11th April this year,

:38:03. > :38:10.she left her home , writing a note to her partner saying she needed

:38:11. > :38:12.some time to herself. She left with her dog Boris

:38:13. > :38:15.and headed to the Heath nearby on which she would

:38:16. > :38:17.often go for walks. three walkers report seeing her that

:38:18. > :38:20.morning and there was also a possible sighting the next day

:38:21. > :38:22.of a bedraggled woman walking There's been no activity

:38:23. > :38:35.on her bank accounts, her phone hasn't been used,

:38:36. > :38:37.and she's not contacted Her neighbour, Mavis Drake,

:38:38. > :38:39.is very confused. I would like to think that she has

:38:40. > :38:42.done an Agatha Christie perhaps and is writing

:38:43. > :38:44.a book secretly somewhere I can't believe that she's done

:38:45. > :38:48.anything bad to herself at all, And I'm hoping that

:38:49. > :38:55.Boris and she are OK. So this is the only thing that

:38:56. > :39:09.worries me, she would not do anything to hurt anybody,

:39:10. > :39:11.definitely not, so that's why I think we're all very

:39:12. > :39:14.worried about her. Helen, we send you all our very best

:39:15. > :39:26.love and care. We are longing to see you again

:39:27. > :39:30.and we miss you, Helen, we miss you. Helen kept a blog about bereavement

:39:31. > :39:33.following the death of her husband, He drowned while on holiday

:39:34. > :39:36.with Helen in Barbados. When Bad Things Happen

:39:37. > :39:39.in Good Bikinis. Her final blog post

:39:40. > :39:42.earlier this year marked the five-year

:39:43. > :39:46.anniversary of his death. There's been speculation

:39:47. > :39:48.that her disappearance is the result Her new partner, Ian

:39:49. > :39:52.Stewart, put out an Shelley Whitehead

:39:53. > :40:11.was Helen's coach and They'd come to this

:40:12. > :40:14.north London park for She made a comment on my Facebook

:40:15. > :40:21.page the day she went missing, that morning,

:40:22. > :40:23.at about 10.30am. I post every day and something

:40:24. > :40:28.resonated with her and she made a comment on that

:40:29. > :40:31.and that was the last time. So you posted "Three ways to fail

:40:32. > :40:34.at everything in life". Blame all your problems on others,

:40:35. > :40:36.complain about everything, and not It just doesn't look like a comment

:40:37. > :40:46.from someone who's in a particularly She says Helen has moved

:40:47. > :40:54.on from her sadness and had no idea why her

:40:55. > :40:56.friend had vanished. Do you have any idea what might

:40:57. > :40:59.be going through her I could only wish I knew

:41:00. > :41:02.because this is so uncharacteristic, it doesn't make

:41:03. > :41:05.sense at all for Helen to have So what goes through my head is,

:41:06. > :41:14.where is she? Has she fallen somewhere

:41:15. > :41:15.where If she was watching now,

:41:16. > :41:21.what would you say? Let somebody know, just to let

:41:22. > :41:24.someone know you are safe. Have your space, have

:41:25. > :41:25.your time, just let The police appeal for information

:41:26. > :41:31.went out last month, but they aren't everywhere else

:41:32. > :41:44.are still as confused as ever. The grandfather of Ellie Butler

:41:45. > :41:46.has told this programme there should be a public inquiry

:41:47. > :41:49.into the circumstances that led up Yesterday Ellie's father,

:41:50. > :42:06.Ben Butler, was jailed for at least He inflicted catastrophic head

:42:07. > :42:09.injuries on his daughter in October 2013.

:42:10. > :42:13.She died less than a year after she was returned to her parents' care

:42:14. > :42:17.following a custody battle. A High Court judge sided with the couple

:42:18. > :42:23.despite objections from the police and social services. Ellie's

:42:24. > :42:29.grandfather Neal Gray gave us his reaction to the sentence its handed

:42:30. > :42:36.down by the court in an exclusive TV interview. The sentence should be

:42:37. > :42:41.more severe. He should have had at least 40 years and no reinition and

:42:42. > :42:45.the same as the partner, Jennie Gray should have had at least 20 years

:42:46. > :42:49.because I think they're both culprits. They caused the death of

:42:50. > :42:52.Ellie and they covered it up. It is interesting you say and so

:42:53. > :43:00.should the partner, Jennie Gray, that's your daughter? It was my

:43:01. > :43:07.daughter. . I have disowned her. Through, because you don't think one

:43:08. > :43:12.of your own off spring could be possibly involved in a terrible

:43:13. > :43:22.tragic crime. Unfortunately, she was. And... Do you accept that she

:43:23. > :43:27.was under his control? That he was domineering, violent, abusive, and

:43:28. > :43:33.controlled her? I think yeah, I understand that he was violent and

:43:34. > :43:40.controlling, but I think she is also capable of being the same with him.

:43:41. > :43:46.So I would say it is 50/50. Right. You and your wife, Linda, cared for

:43:47. > :43:50.and nurtured Ellie for five of her six years... Yes. Tell us a little

:43:51. > :44:05.bit about Ellie. What was she like? Beautiful. Excuse me... Bubbly,

:44:06. > :44:13.gorgeous little girl, very brainy and intelligent, and very loving.

:44:14. > :44:21.She was very clever. She was polite. She liked playing games. She had

:44:22. > :44:26.lots of friends at her school. And the stories that Butler and her are

:44:27. > :44:30.saying that she was rude and lazy are complete and utter false lies.

:44:31. > :44:38.She was a gorgeous little girl and it was a great privilege, excuse me,

:44:39. > :44:41.to have been her grandparent. I wonder what you thought Mr Gray

:44:42. > :44:47.when you saw Ben Butler and your daughter on TV as we saw in that

:44:48. > :44:50.clip, protesting their innocence, saying that they had been a victim

:44:51. > :44:58.of a miscarriage of justice? I thought it was a complete and utter

:44:59. > :45:03.joke. Because after that clip was shown, he got hold of a chap called

:45:04. > :45:08.Max Clifford a PR guru who is now also inside and I think their idea

:45:09. > :45:09.was to milk the system for as much money as they could possibly get.

:45:10. > :45:22.Right. It is an utter farce. Do you believe your daughter

:45:23. > :45:29.genuinely believed Ellie had died in an accident, which is what his story

:45:30. > :45:36.was? I don't think she did believe she died in an accident. I think she

:45:37. > :45:41.knew what had happened. She knew what he was capable of. She had

:45:42. > :45:49.inflicted injuries herself several times. Through the loss of other

:45:50. > :45:55.children. Why would she cover up the murder of her daughter by her

:45:56. > :46:02.partner? I don't know. That is a question I cannot answer. I often

:46:03. > :46:08.sold search myself, and my wife used -- my wife used to sold search,

:46:09. > :46:14.asking why. When you have a child your number one priority is always

:46:15. > :46:19.the child. For anybody. Whether it is a father, a mother, grandfather,

:46:20. > :46:24.grandmother, the child is the most important thing in this world. They

:46:25. > :46:33.are precious. It is a privilege to have a child in my eyes. If you have

:46:34. > :46:40.a child you have to look after that child completely and utterly.

:46:41. > :46:45.Without it, many nasty things would happen, which have happened in the

:46:46. > :46:51.past years. I believe the social services laws have got to be brought

:46:52. > :46:55.into the 21st century. I also believe that the family court system

:46:56. > :47:02.as it is today, has got to be changed radically and brought into

:47:03. > :47:10.the 21st century. Less secrecy? Less secrecy, yes. Open it completely.

:47:11. > :47:19.But in particular cases, keep the child's name anonymous, if that has

:47:20. > :47:25.got to be. The child has got to be kept number one. That is the most

:47:26. > :47:29.important thing. I don't think the establishment has learned. We have

:47:30. > :47:37.heard Baby P, we have that victorious Colombia -- Victoria Klim

:47:38. > :47:41.be. So many inadequacies of the social services or the family

:47:42. > :47:48.courts. Somebody has got to stand up and make sure that no other child,

:47:49. > :47:55.possibly, doesn't get hurt like my grand daughter got hurt. Neal Gray.

:47:56. > :48:01.Let me read some of your messages. And says she has just seen the

:48:02. > :48:04.grandfather and what a brave, wonderful person he is. Somebody

:48:05. > :48:09.must be responsible for this terrible tragedy. We must have a

:48:10. > :48:13.public enquiry. The judge should be held in Cannes -- accountable. Kevin

:48:14. > :48:19.is a serving police officer. Seeing the emotions has reduced him to

:48:20. > :48:24.tears, and that is not easily done. Alison found it absolutely

:48:25. > :48:29.heartbreaking. I hope Ellie's grandfather finds peace. There are

:48:30. > :48:32.so many of these. Jules says, Neal Gray, my heart is broken for you.

:48:33. > :48:35.Let's talk to Claire Throssell whose two children were murdered

:48:36. > :48:37.in a house fire started deliberately by her abusive ex-husband.

:48:38. > :48:43.Emma Williamson is an expert in coercive control

:48:44. > :48:56.Peter Gregg is from The Children's Society.

:48:57. > :49:03.The reason we have got you together is to talk particularly about the

:49:04. > :49:15.control that Ben Butler, the father of Ellie, the partner of Jenny Gray,

:49:16. > :49:15.exerted over his family. Emma, I think it would be helpful to

:49:16. > :49:18.describe coercive control. Good morning. Can I just start by

:49:19. > :49:24.offering my condolences to Ellie's family, her grandfather in

:49:25. > :49:28.particular. This is a horrific case. In terms of coercive control, what

:49:29. > :49:34.we know from decades of research is that when we have spoken to victims

:49:35. > :49:38.of domestic violence, women in particular, coercive control those

:49:39. > :49:42.actually cannot see. If you have a physical assault and you have a

:49:43. > :49:48.bruise, other people can see it but -- cannot see it but you can see it

:49:49. > :49:52.yourself. Coercive control is about manipulating everyday situations. It

:49:53. > :49:57.is about controlling her somebody reacts to a given situation. People

:49:58. > :50:00.talk about walking on eggshells. They talk about having to respond

:50:01. > :50:06.and reacted to their partner in order to keep some control, but

:50:07. > :50:10.ultimately their abusive partner always has that control. There were

:50:11. > :50:18.so many horrible texts Butler sent to his partner, and notes. One was,

:50:19. > :50:26.just watch your mouth. Your mouth is the trigger for me. Yes. I think we

:50:27. > :50:29.could give many examples from research we have been doing with the

:50:30. > :50:35.victims of domestic abuse around coercive control. At some points you

:50:36. > :50:41.do not necessarily need to have a direct threat. There is not a direct

:50:42. > :50:45.threat to kill. That individual understands what will happen and

:50:46. > :50:48.that they are abdicating responsibility. The blame is put

:50:49. > :50:54.onto the victim. In terms of the children in particular in this case,

:50:55. > :50:57.there was an expectation that she would actually abused the children

:50:58. > :51:04.on his behalf. That was being manipulated and controlled by him.

:51:05. > :51:07.Cler, you have experienced this kind of control. I wonder if you would

:51:08. > :51:15.feel comfortable in telling our audience? Yes. My ex-husband was

:51:16. > :51:20.very controlling. He would contact me many, many times in a day. Up to

:51:21. > :51:25.16, 17 phone calls a day wanting to know where we were, what we were

:51:26. > :51:29.doing. If I took the children out for the day, he would punish me when

:51:30. > :51:35.he came for home from work. He would put us all down, destroy our

:51:36. > :51:40.self-confidence. In the end you just look in the mirror and you do not

:51:41. > :51:50.recognise yourself any more. It is very hard to break that cycle. The

:51:51. > :51:58.boys showed so much courage to do that. In what way? They used to

:51:59. > :52:02.stick up for me. They used to say, don't speak to my mum like that. And

:52:03. > :52:07.I realised that I had to take them out of that. Children are like

:52:08. > :52:14.rainbows they absorbed the light and reflected back. I did not want my

:52:15. > :52:20.children reflecting that behaviour back to anybody else. They knew it

:52:21. > :52:26.was wrong. Like you say, they walk around on eggshells. They never knew

:52:27. > :52:31.what mood he would be in. Again, I got abusive messages, abusive texts.

:52:32. > :52:37.It was a pattern of behaviour. It never seems to break until you get

:52:38. > :52:41.the courage to do it yourself. Peter, what is the children's

:52:42. > :52:47.Society review of the Ellie Butler case? A tragic and horrific story.

:52:48. > :52:51.Listening to Ellie's grandfather makes it absolutely clear that at

:52:52. > :52:56.the heart of this is Ellie, a young girl who was not being listened to.

:52:57. > :53:01.We work with young people facing neglect, abuse and other things

:53:02. > :53:06.going on in their lives. Too often. Nobody spends the time to ask them

:53:07. > :53:09.questions about what is going on in their lives. The serious case review

:53:10. > :53:13.in this instance has shown that time and time again opportunities were

:53:14. > :53:20.missed to listen to what Ellie would have had to say, and potentially

:53:21. > :53:26.avoided her tragic outcome. But in this particular case, as we now

:53:27. > :53:33.know, Mrs Justice Hogg, a judge at the family court division, had

:53:34. > :53:37.exonerated Ben Butler and effectively said, on all the local

:53:38. > :53:40.authority files, social workers, police, health etc, it should be

:53:41. > :53:48.prominent that Ben Butler had been exonerated. And private social

:53:49. > :53:52.workers were involved. It excluded Local Authority workers from being

:53:53. > :53:58.able to intervene. That is what the serious case review concluded. It

:53:59. > :54:02.does. The many agencies that did want to stand up early, they were

:54:03. > :54:06.not able to have that voice. The other thing the case review makes

:54:07. > :54:10.clear is that time and time again opportunities were missed to listen

:54:11. > :54:14.to Ellie in an independent way, in a Safeway, where parents were not

:54:15. > :54:19.there, where they could talk to her on her own. They were missed by the

:54:20. > :54:24.GP and on other occasions. If we can take anything from this sad case is

:54:25. > :54:28.-- it is that in these instances we have to listen to the voices of

:54:29. > :54:34.children. We have to trust what they are saying and respond. We have to

:54:35. > :54:38.put their welfare first. Emma, if one was being coercively controlled,

:54:39. > :54:44.how would you know at the time? That is Raly difficult. I think

:54:45. > :54:49.absolutely one of the saddest things about this case is that Ellie was

:54:50. > :54:54.not listened to, and neither were her grandparents. That would have

:54:55. > :55:02.made a massive difference in this case. That happens throughout

:55:03. > :55:06.contact cases. I also think front hand foremost in this case is not

:55:07. > :55:11.necessarily Ellie, but a perpetrator who within the domestic violence

:55:12. > :55:14.situation was coercively controlling his partner but also managed to

:55:15. > :55:19.control and manipulate everybody else. This is one case where perhaps

:55:20. > :55:25.the Local Authority got it right. They are often lambast -- lambasted

:55:26. > :55:30.for getting things wrong. But they said this person was not fit to have

:55:31. > :55:34.a child in his care. That caution and control does not stop at the

:55:35. > :55:39.front door. It affects everybody else trying to take action and those

:55:40. > :55:44.are brought into it. They think he is charming, they think he is a good

:55:45. > :55:49.enough bad. What is ready important is that when we get to the contact

:55:50. > :55:53.situation, abusive parents, most likely fathers, are seen as being

:55:54. > :55:59.good enough parents. There is an assumption of a 50-50 split. What we

:56:00. > :56:03.have shown time and time again is that is not appropriate if we want

:56:04. > :56:10.to put the child first. Cler, I wonder when a partner is being

:56:11. > :56:13.physically abusive, emotionally abusive, but they are manipulating

:56:14. > :56:20.the outside world, putting on this charming front, how do you, as the

:56:21. > :56:25.woman in the middle of that, let the world know something is not right?

:56:26. > :56:31.It is very difficult. You are walking a tightrope. You are trying

:56:32. > :56:39.to protect the children. And like they say, he is totally fooled -- he

:56:40. > :56:43.has totally fooled social services. He was difficult, he was aggressive,

:56:44. > :56:47.and I warned them about their behaviour -- his behaviour. He

:56:48. > :56:51.threatened to commit suicide in June. I was not listened to and the

:56:52. > :57:00.boys were not listened to because he presented a fund. But there can only

:57:01. > :57:04.keep it up for so long. And then it goes. But by then it is too late.

:57:05. > :57:13.Thank you all very much for coming on the programme. In the Williamson,

:57:14. > :57:19.Peter Gregg and Clare. -- Ehmer. Some more comments from you. So many

:57:20. > :57:23.regarding the interview with Neal Gray. Karen found heartbreaking to

:57:24. > :57:29.watch. I wonder how the authorities can get it so wrong. I hope Ellie's

:57:30. > :57:34.grandad gets the public enquiry to hold those people accountable. This

:57:35. > :57:38.news from Germany. Investigators in Germany say if former nurse may have

:57:39. > :57:44.killed dozens of patients by injecting them with heart

:57:45. > :57:49.medication. The man was jailed last year from killing two people and

:57:50. > :57:53.attempting to murder two others, but a court has ordered the exhumation

:57:54. > :57:58.of 99 former patients at the hospital where he worked and have

:57:59. > :58:04.found traces of this heart drug in 27 of the bodies. This from Germany.

:58:05. > :58:08.Investigators say a former nurse may have killed dozens of his patients

:58:09. > :58:17.by injecting them with heart medication. This after the court

:58:18. > :58:23.ordered the exclamation of patients. They found traces of the drug in 27

:58:24. > :58:25.of the bodies. More on that coming up at 11. Thank you for your time.

:58:26. > :58:37.Back tomorrow at nine. Goodbye. Britain's best athletes

:58:38. > :58:40.head to Birmingham