10/10/2016

:00:07. > :00:11.I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

:00:12. > :00:14.Our top story today - some of the ugliest exchanges

:00:15. > :00:15.ever seen in an American presidential debate -

:00:16. > :00:20.as Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton trade accusations.

:00:21. > :00:30.I apologised to my family, I apologised to the American people.

:00:31. > :00:35.He has said that the video doesn't represent who he is.

:00:36. > :00:38.But I think it is clear to anyone who heard it that it

:00:39. > :00:45.I was so surprised to see him sign on with the devil.

:00:46. > :00:48.But when you talk about apology, I think the one that you should

:00:49. > :00:51.really be apologising for, the thing that you should be

:00:52. > :00:56.apologising for, are the 33,000 e-mails.

:00:57. > :00:58.Is just awfully good that someone with the temperament

:00:59. > :01:01.of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in this country.

:01:02. > :01:07.More reaction to come throughout the programme.

:01:08. > :01:09.Also this morning - three former heads of

:01:10. > :01:11.the British Army slam a long-running investigation into allegations

:01:12. > :01:30.We began to see, in my time, that it was growing as a many headed Hydra.

:01:31. > :01:35.We need to wind these investigations as soon as possible. It is not good

:01:36. > :01:39.for individuals, not fair on individuals and it is harmful to

:01:40. > :01:44.operational forces. Obviously, I wish to see soldiers that are

:01:45. > :01:46.innocent of any such behaviour, the burden lifted from them.

:01:47. > :01:48.More on that exclusive story to come.

:01:49. > :01:51.Conservative MP and former army captain Johnny Mercer has made

:01:52. > :01:55.a film for this programme on the issue - we'll bring it

:01:56. > :02:05.dog-piling and virtual mobbing, you could be prosecuted.

:02:06. > :02:21.They're all forms of abuse on social media - we'll bring you the details.

:02:22. > :02:38.We will bring you the breaking news and developing stories. Later, we

:02:39. > :02:40.will bring you a interview with Ed Miliband, calling for a Commons vote

:02:41. > :02:41.on Brexit. Do get in touch on all the stories

:02:42. > :02:44.we're talking about this morning - If you text, you will be charged

:02:45. > :02:48.at the standard network rate. Our top story today,

:02:49. > :02:50.Donald Trump has used the second US Presidential debate to dismiss

:02:51. > :02:53.a tape in which he made obscene remarks about women

:02:54. > :03:02.as locker-room talk. Mr Trump accused the former

:03:03. > :03:03.President Bill Clinton He suggested it was wrong to focus

:03:04. > :03:08.on the tape when there were so many Our Washington correspondent

:03:09. > :03:13.Gary O'Donoghue has more. Another night when the stakes

:03:14. > :03:15.for Hillary Clinton were high, Donald Trump again facing questions

:03:16. > :03:20.about his treatment of women and his seeming willingness

:03:21. > :03:24.to force himself upon them. Before even a word was

:03:25. > :03:29.spoken the tone was set. You brag that you have

:03:30. > :03:31.sexually assaulted women. I don't think you

:03:32. > :03:36.understood what was said. I apologised to my family,

:03:37. > :03:42.I apologised to the American people. And he has said that the video

:03:43. > :03:51.doesn't represent who he is. But I think it's clear to anyone

:03:52. > :03:54.who heard it that it represents If you look at Bill

:03:55. > :04:05.Clinton, far worse. What he has done to women,

:04:06. > :04:11.there has never been anyone in the history of politics in this

:04:12. > :04:14.nation that has been Repeatedly, Donald Trump called

:04:15. > :04:19.Hillary Clinton a liar, Their lives have been destroyed

:04:20. > :04:25.for doing one fifth of what you've done and it is a disgrace and you

:04:26. > :04:31.ought be ashamed of yourself. He promised to get a special

:04:32. > :04:35.prosecutor to investigate her e-mails if he won

:04:36. > :04:37.the White House. It is just awfully good that someone

:04:38. > :04:40.with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of

:04:41. > :04:42.the law in our country. At the end, a surreal moment

:04:43. > :04:52.when they were both asked to name His children are incredibly able

:04:53. > :04:59.and devoted and I think that says I will say this about

:05:00. > :05:07.Hillary, she doesn't quit, This was the most petulant

:05:08. > :05:13.and bad-tempered debate there has been since they started

:05:14. > :05:17.doing these 50 years ago. The sheer visceral hatred these two

:05:18. > :05:20.have for one another was plain But despite all his problems,

:05:21. > :05:24.Donald Trump did deliver a better It just might not be enough to erase

:05:25. > :05:39.the damage he has already done. Let's get more now with our

:05:40. > :05:53.Washington Correspondent, Despite those lewd comments, Donald

:05:54. > :05:57.Trump is still in this? Yes, he is, a huge achievement in itself. He

:05:58. > :06:01.came into this debate with a very low bar, he was backed into a corner

:06:02. > :06:06.over this tape, haemorrhaging support from Republican lawmakers

:06:07. > :06:11.and officials. Dozens had to distance themselves from him. He

:06:12. > :06:15.really had to rescue that. He did, he forced himself out of that

:06:16. > :06:21.corner. He did apologise for the tape, at the same time he did not

:06:22. > :06:25.show very much contrition. He tried to divert attention by highlighting

:06:26. > :06:29.the sex scandals of former President Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton's

:06:30. > :06:33.husband. He went on personal attacks, called her a liar, he said

:06:34. > :06:37.she had hatred in her heart, he called her the devil, that he would

:06:38. > :06:45.jail her if he could over her e-mail problems. He went for broke, in the

:06:46. > :06:48.midst of that, he put in a more disciplined and more feisty

:06:49. > :06:53.performance than he had in the first debate, all of which means that he

:06:54. > :07:00.has probably stopped the bleeding in his campaign somewhat. You might not

:07:01. > :07:03.see more defections, at least not immediately, although Republican

:07:04. > :07:06.lawmakers will still be on the watch from day-to-day. It is not clear

:07:07. > :07:10.that he actually managed to deal with the larger issue, which is

:07:11. > :07:13.trying to repair the damage with women voters that has been building,

:07:14. > :07:24.but came to a head with the release of this sex boasting tape. And what

:07:25. > :07:33.did the snap polls say about Hugh They said different things, more of

:07:34. > :07:37.them said Hilary Clinton won and put in a calmer performance. She was

:07:38. > :07:42.better at arguing policy, to be expected, that is her specialty. She

:07:43. > :07:46.had the moral high ground because of this video that shocked not only

:07:47. > :07:49.Democrats and voters in general, but Republicans, very lewd comments

:07:50. > :08:00.about women, suggesting that he could sexually assault them. It was

:08:01. > :08:07.thought she might be able to deliver a knockout blow. Her approach was to

:08:08. > :08:10.say, they go low, you go higher. Answer the questions, present her

:08:11. > :08:16.case and let him hang himself, that is what happened in the previous

:08:17. > :08:20.debate. She was able to bait him on various things and getting to make

:08:21. > :08:23.self damaging acknowledgements and lose his temper. In this case, he

:08:24. > :08:29.came out of the gate fighting and went after her in such a strong way

:08:30. > :08:35.that although she may have won the debate on policy issues, he made a

:08:36. > :08:37.dent and at least appeals to his base, at least made the Republicans

:08:38. > :08:41.say he is still in the race. Joanna Gosling is in the BBC

:08:42. > :08:43.Newsroom with a summary Three former heads of

:08:44. > :08:47.the British Army have criticised the mechanism set up to investigate

:08:48. > :08:50.allegations of historic abuse by UK The Iraq Historic Allegations Team

:08:51. > :08:54.was set-up to examine claims of abuse by British forces in Iraq

:08:55. > :08:59.dating back to 2003. It's been repeatedly criticised

:09:00. > :09:01.for its investigative methods and for pursuing claims

:09:02. > :09:03.against soldiers who've already been And Victoria will have more on that

:09:04. > :09:10.exclusive story at 9.15am. In the past few minutes the RMT

:09:11. > :09:14.union has said that Southern Rail is to take legal action to try

:09:15. > :09:26.and stop a series of strikes The union is planning 14 days of

:09:27. > :09:30.strikes until December. It is in protest at changes to the role of

:09:31. > :09:34.conductors. The Company insists moving them to new posts of on-board

:09:35. > :09:34.supervisor will not affect jobs or safety.

:09:35. > :09:36.People who publish personal information about someone

:09:37. > :09:38.on the internet or encourage online harassment could be

:09:39. > :09:42.The guidelines come into force today in England and Wales.

:09:43. > :09:44.The CPS says it will exercise considerable caution before charging

:09:45. > :09:46.those who post "grossly offensive" material online,

:09:47. > :09:57.Police in Germany say they've captured a Syrian refugee who's

:09:58. > :09:59.suspected of planning an Islamist bomb attack.

:10:00. > :10:01.Jaber Albakr - who's believed to have links with the Islamic State

:10:02. > :10:10.group - was detained in Leipzig after a two-day search

:10:11. > :10:17.That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

:10:18. > :10:24.A couple of comments on the story we are bringing you, three former heads

:10:25. > :10:27.of the British Army criticised the long-running investigation into

:10:28. > :10:34.British soldiers accused of abuse in Iraq. One on Facebook, leave service

:10:35. > :10:38.personnel alone, they just follow orders, go after the colonel in

:10:39. > :10:43.chief who decides where they go. Another, do not punish servicemen

:10:44. > :10:47.and women for doing their duty, did not take the word of the men they

:10:48. > :10:52.were fighting over our men. Another, it is disgusting that Iraqi and

:10:53. > :10:57.Afghanistan bomb makers can claim anything. One day we will wake up

:10:58. > :11:01.and need our own ease Armed Forces, they will say, stuff you, stupid

:11:02. > :11:08.civilians. We need to look after our own.

:11:09. > :11:14.Let's get the sport now with John, we'll start with football and Wales,

:11:15. > :11:21.Why might they not be particularly happy with the performance? They

:11:22. > :11:24.drew 1-1 with Georgia. You might think that Wales, still undefeated

:11:25. > :11:28.in their qualifying campaign, bidding to reach the first World Cup

:11:29. > :11:33.since 1958, that would be a good thing. But they were playing 18 127

:11:34. > :11:37.places below them in the rankings. They made a good start, Gareth Bale

:11:38. > :11:48.opening the scoring. They were pegged back and it finished 1-1 in

:11:49. > :11:50.Cardiff. Yes, they are undefeated with five points, but they are third

:11:51. > :11:52.in their qualifying group. They still have plenty more matches to

:11:53. > :11:55.come, but their failure to beat one of the more lowly nations will be a

:11:56. > :11:59.disappointment to Chris Coleman. If they finished third, it will not be

:12:00. > :12:02.enough to reach the World Cup in Russia.

:12:03. > :12:04.Well, Andy Murray's still building on his successful year,

:12:05. > :12:08.and the world number one position could be in his sights too.

:12:09. > :12:15.Absolutely, a very real possibility that Andy Murray could finish as

:12:16. > :12:19.world number one. How is he going to get there? He won the China open,

:12:20. > :12:24.giving him 500 ranking points and his fifth title this year. More

:12:25. > :12:27.importantly, it sets him up to potentially surpass Novak Djokovic

:12:28. > :12:33.as the world number one, a rather small trophy, as you can see, that

:12:34. > :12:37.he got his hands on. There are still 1000 ranking points available for

:12:38. > :12:41.each Masters title he can win. There are two masters titles available.

:12:42. > :12:52.Here's 3500 points behind Novak Djokovic.

:12:53. > :12:57.The end of season finals are coming and he can win points there as well.

:12:58. > :13:00.Novak Djokovic, it has to be said, needs to drop points as well. But it

:13:01. > :13:03.is feasible for Murray to go on and become world number one. If he

:13:04. > :13:04.doesn't do it this year, there is a strong chance he could do it next

:13:05. > :13:05.year. And finally, England's cricket tour

:13:06. > :13:07.of Bangladesh was controversial before they flew out,

:13:08. > :13:09.and why are the England players unhappy during

:13:10. > :13:17.the one-day series too? I think there were handbags, you

:13:18. > :13:21.could call it. An altercation between the captain at the moment,

:13:22. > :13:26.Jos Buttler, when he was dismissed. I think the reason it got a bit

:13:27. > :13:30.heated, before they went out, there were concerns over security, players

:13:31. > :13:36.but did not travel. The players themselves have placed real

:13:37. > :13:40.importance of winning because of all of the controversy about going out

:13:41. > :13:43.there. Eoin Morgan, the current captain, didn't go. He wants to win

:13:44. > :13:49.and he was disappointed because his wicket was a crucial one. There were

:13:50. > :13:55.staging a fightback. England were 26-4. They only needed to reach 239,

:13:56. > :13:59.a realistic target. I think he knew, when he trudged off, the chances of

:14:00. > :14:03.winning went with his dismissal. Ben Stokes got involved. He said, what I

:14:04. > :14:07.will not stand for is a player going in with a shoulder for handshakes.

:14:08. > :14:11.It seems there were making something of nothing, but I think the players

:14:12. > :14:14.realised it was unimportant travelled to Bangladesh, they want

:14:15. > :14:16.to win, the series is level and it goes down to the final match on

:14:17. > :14:18.Wednesday. Much more reaction to the US

:14:19. > :14:21.Presidential debate to come. But first, three former heads

:14:22. > :14:23.of the British Army have told this programme about their concerns over

:14:24. > :14:25.the way investigations into allegations of abuse by UK

:14:26. > :14:28.troops in the Iraq War The Iraq Historic Allegations Team

:14:29. > :14:35.was set-up in 2010 to examine claims of abuse by British forces in Iraq

:14:36. > :14:42.dating back to 2003. It's been repeatedly criticised

:14:43. > :14:44.for its investigative methods and for pursuing claims

:14:45. > :14:46.against soldiers who've already been acquitted of any crime -

:14:47. > :14:48.claims that have been described Many of those claims have been

:14:49. > :14:59.bought because war zones and battle fields still have to follow rules

:15:00. > :15:02.set out in the European Convention Last week Prime Minister Theresa May

:15:03. > :15:08.announced plans to scrap that for future conflicts -

:15:09. > :15:11.but, crucially, it won't affect past Johnny Mercer is a Conservative MP

:15:12. > :15:17.and former army captain he's been looking into the issue for us

:15:18. > :15:20.in an exclusive film which features the first televised interviews

:15:21. > :15:22.with those facing some My name's Johnny Mercer and I'm

:15:23. > :15:36.a Conservative Member of Parliament I served 13 years in the army,

:15:37. > :15:44.conducting multiple combat operations in Afghanistan

:15:45. > :15:46.at the height of the One of the reasons I came

:15:47. > :16:00.to Parliament is because I'm passionate about this nation's

:16:01. > :16:01.relationship with her military, our obligation towards those

:16:02. > :16:04.who keep us safe, who we send to fight and sometimes to die

:16:05. > :16:10.on our behalf. But I'm worried that in recent years

:16:11. > :16:13.we have breached that obligation and now we are facing one

:16:14. > :16:15.of the most serious injustices I remember thinking this

:16:16. > :16:22.can't be real. The untold cruelties of this process

:16:23. > :16:29.have destroyed my life. It's broken me and the army just

:16:30. > :16:32.do not seem to care. I think we need to wind these

:16:33. > :16:35.investigations up as We also need to think

:16:36. > :16:45.about the victims of the crimes. It was worse than any

:16:46. > :16:54.war I've ever fought. This story concerns allegations

:16:55. > :16:58.of abuse by British troops To date, literally thousands

:16:59. > :17:08.of allegations have been made against our troops and in 2010

:17:09. > :17:10.the Government set up IHAT, the Iraq Historic Allegations Team,

:17:11. > :17:13.to investigate a mountain of alleged More recently, Operation Northmoor

:17:14. > :17:18.has been established to investigate There are currently 1,492 cases

:17:19. > :17:30.of alleged abuse under investigation to date just in Iraq, including 235

:17:31. > :17:36.cases of unlawful killing. There are more than 600 cases under

:17:37. > :17:39.investigation in Afghanistan. If even half of these

:17:40. > :17:42.allegations are true, that would suggest a catastrophic

:17:43. > :17:44.breakdown in law and order Many of us who served find this

:17:45. > :17:52.ridiculous and offensive. I've seen our servicemen

:17:53. > :17:54.being dragged through the courts for years,

:17:55. > :17:58.being cleared of wrongdoing, only to face repeat allegations,

:17:59. > :18:02.endless questioning and harassment, and living under the constant threat

:18:03. > :18:06.of being tried for war crimes. This is not the way

:18:07. > :18:08.the British Army does things. We do not treat our

:18:09. > :18:14.people like this. For me this comes down

:18:15. > :18:18.to two clear issues. Firstly, the fundamental

:18:19. > :18:21.misunderstanding involved in trying to apply European human rights law

:18:22. > :18:25.to war fighting operations and secondly, how we actually look

:18:26. > :18:28.after those who are subject I'm trying to use being a member

:18:29. > :18:33.of this place to expose what's I'm chairing an inquiry looking

:18:34. > :18:36.into how we look after those who are facing allegations

:18:37. > :18:41.of wrongdoing. The Ministry of Defence has refused

:18:42. > :18:44.permission for soldiers to come and talk to my committee

:18:45. > :18:46.about their experiences of going through this process

:18:47. > :18:48.but these people's voices So two soldiers have agreed to speak

:18:49. > :18:55.to me about their ordeal but only Their names have been changed

:18:56. > :18:58.and one of their voices This is John, a soldier who has been

:18:59. > :19:05.repeatedly investigated despite being cleared of wrongdoing

:19:06. > :19:08.by court-martial in 2006. He told me about the original

:19:09. > :19:17.incident that led to the accusation. We were accused of a lad

:19:18. > :19:24.who drowned to death and the other three

:19:25. > :19:26.people who were there, the other three Iraqis,

:19:27. > :19:32.they accused us of beating them It was in the immediate aftermath

:19:33. > :19:37.of the invasion, right? It was chaos.

:19:38. > :19:41.I'm not going to lie. It was something I've

:19:42. > :19:43.never seen in my life. I don't think I could ever

:19:44. > :19:46.contemplate how bad it was going What was the first you heard that it

:19:47. > :19:58.was going to be investigated? I come home, done a tour

:19:59. > :20:02.of Northern Ireland, and then after that a couple

:20:03. > :20:05.of gentlemen came into my room and they said my name and they said,

:20:06. > :20:08."I'm arresting you on suspicion They interrogated me

:20:09. > :20:23.for hours and hours. When I came home that day

:20:24. > :20:27.I thought this can't be real. I used to be gutted every

:20:28. > :20:48.time my eyes opened of a morning. At night I tried

:20:49. > :20:50.to take my own life. That place I went to that

:20:51. > :20:53.time was worse than any It became clear that this harassment

:20:54. > :20:57.going back over ten years has had an incredibly disruptive effect

:20:58. > :21:00.on his life. They took about eight hours

:21:01. > :21:03.deliberating. They came down and

:21:04. > :21:06.found us not guilty. It wasn't until after the trial that

:21:07. > :21:08.I got worse. It was the drinking

:21:09. > :21:10.and the sleepless nights So after 2008, when did you first

:21:11. > :21:21.hear that this was The first time I heard

:21:22. > :21:29.about it was from the press They said how do you feel

:21:30. > :21:34.about being investigated? I remember just sitting

:21:35. > :21:38.on the couch shaking. I just sat there thinking to myself,

:21:39. > :21:54."You're going to go through this and drag it all back up again

:21:55. > :21:57.and you're going to leave me again Chris, not his real name, was

:21:58. > :22:02.accused of a similar crime to John. He has been injured

:22:03. > :22:05.repeatedly in operations. I've been investigated between 2003

:22:06. > :22:15.and 2006 and cleared. I had been named or the case had

:22:16. > :22:18.been named in 2008 in the Aitken Report but again no

:22:19. > :22:21.discipline or charges were ever There was a civil case

:22:22. > :22:28.in 2011 and in 2015, after 12 years, IHAT decided

:22:29. > :22:31.it was then necessary to arrest me on something that had been

:22:32. > :22:34.thoroughly scrutinised in the past. I can accept that in 2004 they had

:22:35. > :22:39.a lawful duty to investigate the allegation however

:22:40. > :22:41.it was investigated for two years and they abandoned the case

:22:42. > :22:43.because they had Right now I'm facing a maximum

:22:44. > :22:51.sentence of life imprisonment. Chris explained some of the bizarre

:22:52. > :22:53.investigative methods They asked my former girlfriend

:22:54. > :22:59.about scars on my body. They asked if I was abusive to her,

:23:00. > :23:03.if I shouted at her, if I was abusive to my soldiers,

:23:04. > :23:06.if I had a temper or anger They asked her if I had

:23:07. > :23:11.an alcohol issue. They asked her if I was a racist

:23:12. > :23:15.or if I held any particularly strong political views

:23:16. > :23:17.and they asked her other things about our relationship which I don't

:23:18. > :23:20.wish to speak about now but obviously had no relation

:23:21. > :23:25.to an event that happened in 2003. I am to understand that they have

:23:26. > :23:28.interviewed people I have never served with in operations and again

:23:29. > :23:31.they are asking "Is he violent? Does he have some sort

:23:32. > :23:36.of little man syndrome?" So when I directly asked

:23:37. > :23:38.the minister in January, I had heard of this case

:23:39. > :23:41.and a number of others, that people were looked

:23:42. > :23:44.after and they were informed and drawn through the

:23:45. > :23:48.process by the army. Nobody was approached

:23:49. > :23:51.by IHAT out of the blue. The untold cruelties of this process

:23:52. > :24:00.have destroyed my life. It has broken me and the army just

:24:01. > :24:09.do not seem to care. I find what these guys had

:24:10. > :24:11.to say heartbreaking. I'm ashamed of how this process

:24:12. > :24:14.is being conducted and those I wanted to understand how we have

:24:15. > :24:23.let this happen so I decided to go right to the top to try and get some

:24:24. > :24:25.answers about what's I was head of the armed forces

:24:26. > :24:31.between 2010 to 2013. Chief Of General Staff from early

:24:32. > :24:43.2003 to the late summer of 2006. Johnny, as you remember,

:24:44. > :24:45.I was Chief Of The General Staff Yes, when I was a very

:24:46. > :24:55.young and inexperienced Well, I am first of all very sorry

:24:56. > :25:02.that actually we didn't identify As I said, to begin with,

:25:03. > :25:08.in 2010-2011, it didn't It was just a thing someone had said

:25:09. > :25:12.they would introduce. It was only subsequently

:25:13. > :25:18.we began to see, in my time, that it was growing as a many-headed

:25:19. > :25:21.Hydra. What is really disappointing is

:25:22. > :25:24.that the authorities, if you like, whether it is the Ministry

:25:25. > :25:27.of Defence or the chain of command, has been so nervous of the negative

:25:28. > :25:30.potential consequences of investigations being carried out

:25:31. > :25:34.and allegations being proven, that they have veered too much

:25:35. > :25:39.on behalf of those who are making the allegations and not

:25:40. > :25:44.supporting the soldier. I think this comes out of this

:25:45. > :25:48.instinct somewhere in Whitehall, within the establishment,

:25:49. > :25:55.that basically soldiers aren't good and freedom fighters,

:25:56. > :26:00.we call them terrorists, who kill 3,000 people in one go,

:26:01. > :26:06.but in the minds of some of these people can be somehow quite good

:26:07. > :26:09.and we are nasty and we have got Nobody has the guts

:26:10. > :26:14.to say that's rubbish. We have come to a pretty pass

:26:15. > :26:16.where this has come about. And we have our absolute standards

:26:17. > :26:26.and they must be pursued. That does not include soldiers

:26:27. > :26:32.who find themselves subject to an investigation on the basis

:26:33. > :26:41.of cooked-up allegations. If I have failed to make these

:26:42. > :26:44.points strongly enough, I can only The idea that we've got

:26:45. > :26:53.hundreds if not thousands Anyone who knows any army,

:26:54. > :26:57.let alone the British Army, So there was a fundamental

:26:58. > :27:02.flaw in its inception. We need to wind these investigations

:27:03. > :27:05.up as quickly as possible. It's not fair on individuals

:27:06. > :27:09.and it's definitely harmful Obviously I would wish to see

:27:10. > :27:16.soldiers who are innocent of any such behaviour,

:27:17. > :27:18.the burden lifted from them Many of the allegations have been

:27:19. > :27:30.brought by one firm representing Iraqis,

:27:31. > :27:32.Public Interest Lawyers run by Phil We are seeing the systematic use

:27:33. > :27:38.of coercive interrogation techniques by British forces in Iraq

:27:39. > :27:40.and apparently nobody But questions have been raised

:27:41. > :27:49.about their practices In fact they've recently been closed

:27:50. > :27:53.after being stripped of public funding after it was ruled

:27:54. > :27:55.they breached their contractual I went to see lawyer

:27:56. > :27:59.Hillary Meredith who represents some of the soldiers who have been

:28:00. > :28:01.accused to get some answers There appears to be two

:28:02. > :28:06.law firms involved. One was called Public

:28:07. > :28:08.Interest Lawyers. They closed their doors

:28:09. > :28:10.in August this year. From what I understand,

:28:11. > :28:16.they had an agent on the ground in Iraq who was looking for families

:28:17. > :28:22.who had suffered either what they said was an unlawful

:28:23. > :28:25.killing or injury at the hands of the British Army

:28:26. > :28:28.and they were taking statements and sending them back to the UK

:28:29. > :28:31.and then the abuse cases Public Interest Lawyers,

:28:32. > :28:38.I understand, had Under a Legal Aid contract

:28:39. > :28:49.you are paid whether you win the case

:28:50. > :28:51.or you lose the case. Have there been any criminal

:28:52. > :28:54.convictions at all? As far as I am aware there have been

:28:55. > :28:57.no criminal convictions Neither Phil Shiner nor

:28:58. > :29:00.Public Interest Lawyers responded to our request for an interview

:29:01. > :29:03.about any of these allegations but in the past they have

:29:04. > :29:05.denied any wrongdoing and say they are the victim

:29:06. > :29:09.of a political witchhunt. I wanted to know how this process

:29:10. > :29:13.could be defended so I went to meet Carla Ferstman at the human

:29:14. > :29:15.rights charity Redress. We also need to think

:29:16. > :29:18.about the victims of the crimes. They deserve to know what happened

:29:19. > :29:21.and they deserve to have some The allegations had not

:29:22. > :29:31.been fully investigated. That was the view that was taken,

:29:32. > :29:35.so it was felt that there was a need to get to the bottom of all these

:29:36. > :29:37.allegations to determine whether individuals could or should

:29:38. > :29:40.face prosecution for them. It's interesting because we spoke

:29:41. > :29:48.to a couple of the soldiers yesterday and they say,

:29:49. > :29:50.yes, somebody died here. And now they are hounded

:29:51. > :30:00.for it 12 years later. Is that in the principles

:30:01. > :30:03.of justice? Ideally you would have had

:30:04. > :30:06.a full and effective The fact that you haven't

:30:07. > :30:13.doesn't mean that there There needs to be one,

:30:14. > :30:20.it is as simple as that. The Iraq Historic Allegations Team

:30:21. > :30:36.told us: But that was far from

:30:37. > :30:39.the experience that John Since I started making this film,

:30:40. > :30:45.there have been some The Prime Minister has announced

:30:46. > :30:49.that there will be better legal protection in future conflicts

:30:50. > :30:56.for those who serve and it looks like the army is beginning

:30:57. > :31:01.to take this seriously. but there remains a serious failure

:31:02. > :31:04.in this country when it comes to looking after those who serve

:31:05. > :31:17.that I'm afraid the The Prime Minister needs

:31:18. > :31:24.to understand that how we look after this Afghan-Iraqi generation

:31:25. > :31:27.of war veterans will define this nation's relationship with its

:31:28. > :31:35.military for the next 50 years. A treaty says soldiers are human,

:31:36. > :31:38.the situations they find themselves in are beyond human imagination and

:31:39. > :31:41.yet they are accountable. Being a soldier in the war zone is not like

:31:42. > :31:44.walking the streets of Britain, you are in a constant state of fear and

:31:45. > :31:48.your mental state becomes one of survival for yourself and your

:31:49. > :31:53.comrades. This will cause a rational behaviour. People who have never

:31:54. > :31:57.been in combat will never understand that. Maria says it is disgusting

:31:58. > :32:02.headhunting soldiers for carrying out orders in a war zone. If anybody

:32:03. > :32:04.is to blame, it is the Government, our boys should not be out there in

:32:05. > :32:05.the first place. We asked to speak to

:32:06. > :32:07.the Ministry of Defence, the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon

:32:08. > :32:09.and someone from the Iraq Historic A spokesperson for the Iraq Historic

:32:10. > :32:14.Allegations Team told us, "We are making significant

:32:15. > :32:16.progress with IHAT. It is likely that the caseload

:32:17. > :32:19.will be around 250 by early January 2017, to less than 100 within a year

:32:20. > :32:23.and that the IHAT will have completed its work

:32:24. > :32:30.by the end of 2019." A Ministry of Defence spokesperson

:32:31. > :32:32.told us, "We understand the strain that being involved in such

:32:33. > :32:35.proceedings can place on service personnel, and we are doing

:32:36. > :32:38.all we can to mitigate that impact to the greatest extent possible,

:32:39. > :32:40.whilst also recognising that legal scrutiny of the actions

:32:41. > :32:43.of the Armed Forces is a crucial part of the democracy and rule

:32:44. > :32:55.of law that they serve to protect." After 10am we'll hear in depth

:32:56. > :32:57.from a soldier who's being investigated over

:32:58. > :33:01.alleged war crimes. Still to come: Hard Brexit

:33:02. > :33:03.or soft Brexit and what do The Former Labour leader Ed Miliband

:33:04. > :33:08.says there should be a vote in the Commons about how

:33:09. > :33:12.we leave the EU. We speak to him about

:33:13. > :33:16.it just after 10am. As of today, internet trolls

:33:17. > :33:18.who post humiliating photoshopped images or harrass people online

:33:19. > :33:21.could face prosecution under We speak to the head

:33:22. > :33:29.of the Crown Prosecution Service Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

:33:30. > :33:41.with a summary of today's news. Bitter words have been exchanged

:33:42. > :33:43.between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump during their second

:33:44. > :33:47.US presidential debate. Mrs Clinton said the Republican

:33:48. > :33:49.candidate's remarks about groping women showed he wasn't

:33:50. > :33:53.fit to be president. Mr Trump repeatedly called his

:33:54. > :33:55.Democratic opponent a liar and accused her husband

:33:56. > :34:01.of abusing women. Three former heads of

:34:02. > :34:03.the British Army have criticised the mechanism set up to investigate

:34:04. > :34:06.allegations of historic abuse by UK The Iraq Historic Allegations Team

:34:07. > :34:12.was set-up to examine claims of abuse by British forces in Iraq

:34:13. > :34:16.dating back to 2003. It's been repeatedly criticised

:34:17. > :34:18.for its investigative methods and for pursuing claims

:34:19. > :34:21.against soldiers who've already been The RMT union says that

:34:22. > :34:29.Southern Rail is to take legal action to try and stop a series

:34:30. > :34:33.of strikes due to start tomorrow. The union is planning 14 days

:34:34. > :34:35.of strikes until December in protest at changes

:34:36. > :34:37.to the role of conductors. The company insists that moving

:34:38. > :34:40.conductors to new posts of on-board supervisor will not

:34:41. > :34:45.affect jobs or safety. Secondary school teachers in England

:34:46. > :34:48.work longer than those in most developed countries,

:34:49. > :34:49.with one in five putting A report by the Education Policy

:34:50. > :34:56.Institute suggests that leaves little time for career development,

:34:57. > :34:59.and is part of the reason many Police in Germany say they've

:35:00. > :35:05.captured a Syrian refugee who's suspected of planning

:35:06. > :35:11.an Islamist bomb attack. Jaber Al Bakr, who is believed

:35:12. > :35:15.to have links with the Islamic State group, was detained in Leipzig

:35:16. > :35:17.after a two-day search. People who publish personal

:35:18. > :35:19.information about someone on the internet or encourage online

:35:20. > :35:21.harassment could be The guidelines come into force today

:35:22. > :35:25.in England and Wales. The CPS says it will exercise

:35:26. > :35:27.considerable caution before charging those who post "grossly

:35:28. > :35:29.offensive" material online, That's a summary of

:35:30. > :35:50.the latest BBC News. Wales drew with Georgia last night

:35:51. > :35:54.in World Cup qualifying. They might remain undefeated, but it will feel

:35:55. > :35:59.like an opportunity missed, as they failed to beat a nation ranked 127

:36:00. > :36:03.places below them in the Fifa rankings. They are third in a group,

:36:04. > :36:07.which would not be enough to see them qualify. Andy Murray won the

:36:08. > :36:10.China open and it means he could finish the year as world number one.

:36:11. > :36:15.He trails Novak Djokovic in the rankings at the moment, but with

:36:16. > :36:18.more points up for grabs with more tournaments to come, showed Novak

:36:19. > :36:23.Djokovic slip-up and fail to defend his title is, Murray could overtake

:36:24. > :36:27.him. Johanna Konta is up to eighth in the women's rankings after

:36:28. > :36:31.finishing runner-up. She is the first British woman into the top ten

:36:32. > :36:36.in over 30 years. She is on course to compete at the season-ending

:36:37. > :36:40.finals. It got heated as England lost to

:36:41. > :36:44.Bangladesh in the second one-day international. Jos Buttler was

:36:45. > :36:48.unhappy at the way the hosts summer ready. Ben Stokes got involved at

:36:49. > :36:51.the end. England's hopes of wrapping up the series went as he trudged

:36:52. > :36:53.off, as they lost the match. It all goes down to the final one-day match

:36:54. > :37:01.on Wednesday. Well, it promised to be heated -

:37:02. > :37:03.and it certainly was. It also threatened to end

:37:04. > :37:06.Donald Trump's hope of being the next US President,

:37:07. > :37:08.and it probably didn't do that. Instead, the Republican billionaire

:37:09. > :37:10.used the second Presidential debate to defend vulgar remarks he made

:37:11. > :37:13.about women and insist alleged abuse of women

:37:14. > :37:15.by Hillary Clinton's husband, the former US President Bill

:37:16. > :37:17.Clinton, was actually far worse If you slept through the debate,

:37:18. > :37:25.here is 90 minutes boiled down Ladies and gentlemen,

:37:26. > :37:30.the Republican nominee for President, Donald J Trump,

:37:31. > :37:33.the Democratic nominee You described kissing women

:37:34. > :37:43.without their consent, You brag that you have

:37:44. > :37:49.sexually assaulted women. I don't think you understood

:37:50. > :37:54.what was said. I apologised to my family,

:37:55. > :38:00.I apologised to the American people. He has said that the video doesn't

:38:01. > :38:09.represent who he is. But I think it is clear to anyone

:38:10. > :38:12.who heard it that it If you look at Bill

:38:13. > :38:19.Clinton, far worse. I'd like to know, why aren't

:38:20. > :38:25.you bringing up the e-mails? The thing you should be apologising

:38:26. > :38:32.for the 33,000 e-mails The two boxes of e-mails and other

:38:33. > :38:43.things last week that were taken I'll tell you what, I didn't

:38:44. > :38:49.think I would say this, but I'm going to say it,

:38:50. > :38:53.and I hate to say it, if I win, I am going to instruct my

:38:54. > :38:56.Attorney General to get a special prosecutor to look into your

:38:57. > :38:58.situation, because there has never been so many lies,

:38:59. > :39:06.so much deception. There has never been

:39:07. > :39:08.anything like it. We are going to have a special

:39:09. > :39:10.prosecutor. When I speak, I go out

:39:11. > :39:13.and speak, the people of this In my opinion, the people that

:39:14. > :39:18.are long-term workers There has never been anything

:39:19. > :39:24.like this, where e-mails, and you get a subpoena,

:39:25. > :39:27.you get a subpoena, and after getting the subpoena,

:39:28. > :39:31.you delete 33,000 e-mails. Then you acid wash them,

:39:32. > :39:43.or bleach them, as you would say. We are going to get a special

:39:44. > :39:46.prosecutor and we are going to look into it. You know what, people have

:39:47. > :39:51.been... Their lives have been destroyed for doing one fifth of

:39:52. > :39:56.what you have done. It is a disgrace. Honestly, you ought to be

:39:57. > :39:59.ashamed of yourself. I take response ability for using a personal e-mail

:40:00. > :40:05.account. Obviously if I were to do it over again, I would not. I'm not

:40:06. > :40:10.making any excuses. It was a mistake and I am very sorry about that. It

:40:11. > :40:14.is just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump

:40:15. > :40:24.is not in charge of the law in our country. Because you'd be in jail.

:40:25. > :40:28.She complains that Donald Trump took advantage of the tax code. Well why

:40:29. > :40:32.didn't you change it when US senator? It is hard sometimes to get

:40:33. > :40:37.Congress to do what you want to do. You have to keep working at it. Yes,

:40:38. > :40:41.President Lincoln was trying to convince some people, he used some

:40:42. > :40:49.arguments, convincing other people, he used other arguments. WikiLeaks,

:40:50. > :40:59.that just came out, she lied. Now she is blaming the lie on the late,

:41:00. > :41:02.great Abraham Lincoln. Honest Abe never lied. That is the difference

:41:03. > :41:10.between Abraham Lincoln and you. A big difference. The United States of

:41:11. > :41:19.America should be prepared to use military force to strike the

:41:20. > :41:24.military targets of the Saddam -- the Assad regime. I disagree, we

:41:25. > :41:29.have two knockout Isis. We have never been an eight situation where

:41:30. > :41:33.an adversary, a foreign power, is working so hard to influence the

:41:34. > :41:38.outcome of the election. Believe me, they are not doing it to get me

:41:39. > :41:42.elected. They are doing it to try to influence the election for Donald

:41:43. > :41:45.Trump. Maybe because he has praised Vladimir Putin, maybe because he

:41:46. > :41:49.says he agrees with a lot of what he wants to do, maybe because he wants

:41:50. > :41:53.to do business in Moscow, I don't know the reasons. But we deserve

:41:54. > :41:59.answers. And we should demand that Donald release all of his tax

:42:00. > :42:02.returns. I don't know Vladimir Putin. I think it would be great if

:42:03. > :42:06.we got along with Russia because we could fight Isis together. But I

:42:07. > :42:10.notice any time anything wrong happens, they like to say the

:42:11. > :42:13.Russians, the Russians, she doesn't know if it is Russians doing the

:42:14. > :42:16.hacking. Maybe there is no hacking. They always blame Russia because

:42:17. > :42:20.they think they are trying to tarnish me with Russia. I know

:42:21. > :42:24.nothing about Russia. I know about Russia, but I know nothing about the

:42:25. > :42:29.inner workings of Russia, I don't deal there, I have no businesses, no

:42:30. > :42:34.loans from Russia. The New York Times published three pages of tax

:42:35. > :42:36.returns, showing you claimed a $930 million loss, meaning you could

:42:37. > :42:43.avoid paying federal income taxes for years. A lot of my right of was

:42:44. > :42:46.depreciation and things that Hillary as a Senator allow. She will always

:42:47. > :42:49.allow it, because the people that give her money wanted. I understand

:42:50. > :42:54.the tax code better than anybody that has run for President. It is

:42:55. > :42:59.extremely complex. Hillary Clinton has friends that want all of these

:43:00. > :43:02.provisions, including the provision which is very important to Wall

:43:03. > :43:06.Street people. Here we go again. I've been in favour of getting rid

:43:07. > :43:10.of carried interest for years. Starting when I was a senator from

:43:11. > :43:15.New York. But that is not the point. Why didn't you do it? Because I was

:43:16. > :43:20.a senator with a Republican President. I will be President. If

:43:21. > :43:27.you were an effective senator, you could have done it. You were not

:43:28. > :43:32.effective. Please allow her to respond, she didn't interrupt you.

:43:33. > :43:36.Under the Constitution, presidents have something called veto power.

:43:37. > :43:41.Take a look at WikiLeaks and see what they said about Bernie Sanders,

:43:42. > :43:47.what Deborah Schulte had in mind. Between super delegates and her, he

:43:48. > :43:51.never had a chance. I was so surprised to see him sign on with

:43:52. > :43:54.the devil. Would either of you name one positive thing that you respect

:43:55. > :44:09.in one another? I respect his children. His children

:44:10. > :44:14.are incredibly able and devoted, and I think that says a lot about

:44:15. > :44:18.Donald. She does fight hard and she does not quit, she does not give up.

:44:19. > :44:24.I consider that to be a very good trait. 90 minutes into seven

:44:25. > :44:26.minutes. If you want to watch more, the BBC News Channel will show it

:44:27. > :44:28.again at 11am. Let's talk now to some political

:44:29. > :44:30.commentators from both the Trump Dr Jan Halper-Hayes

:44:31. > :44:33.is the vice-president Charlie Wolf is a Republican

:44:34. > :44:38.commentator. Ursula Lauriston is a Democrat

:44:39. > :44:41.and editor in chief Quinia Fulton is a Democrat

:44:42. > :45:01.political commentator. Donald Trump is very much still in

:45:02. > :45:09.this despite the furore of the gross comments which came out on Friday.

:45:10. > :45:12.Absolutely. I think las night Hillary Clinton definitely won new

:45:13. > :45:15.votes, but Donald Trump got the spotlight back which is exactly what

:45:16. > :45:20.he wanted. How did he manage to do that? Well, I think he finally stood

:45:21. > :45:23.up for himself. He did the prep he needed to do and he stayed on

:45:24. > :45:29.message, but he did fight back. He was not going to let Hillary pull

:45:30. > :45:32.the same act of rehearsed lines of the sort of condescending smile and

:45:33. > :45:36.the roll of the eyes and I thought that key moment was when he was

:45:37. > :45:39.talking about, you have done this, the 33,000 e-mails, you should be

:45:40. > :45:42.ashamed of yourself and you know, he was on the side of the people, I'm

:45:43. > :45:46.going to get a special prosecutor and I'm going to look into what

:45:47. > :45:50.you've done. You notice he had, I think, of all the applause, the

:45:51. > :45:55.three or four times it happened, I think three out of four were for

:45:56. > :45:58.Donald Trump. How did you think Hillary Clinton did, the woman you

:45:59. > :46:02.support, compared to how Donald Trump did in this second TV debate?

:46:03. > :46:08.I think Hillary Clinton had a very good night. She stuck on message.

:46:09. > :46:12.She had a few hiccups and there, the Lincoln comment was quite confusing

:46:13. > :46:16.to me, but she had a very good night, I think she stuck to her

:46:17. > :46:20.points and I think she tried to keep it a clean debate without it getting

:46:21. > :46:24.too nasty as the US election has been. As far as Donald Trump I think

:46:25. > :46:27.he did what he needed to do for Republicans to stick by his side,

:46:28. > :46:31.considering the controversial that's been going on with the Trump tape

:46:32. > :46:36.recently and the other comments he made about women. I think he still

:46:37. > :46:43.had a decent night. Hillary Clinton didn't really land a

:46:44. > :46:49.blow on him though, did she? I think that it is all about answering

:46:50. > :46:52.actual questions and I always listen to hear Donald Trump answer an

:46:53. > :46:57.actual question and that never ever happens and I don't think it ever,

:46:58. > :47:02.ever will and the last debate that's what he tried to do and that was his

:47:03. > :47:05.down fall and once again he went back to his prior strategy and

:47:06. > :47:10.didn't answer a single question and Hillary Clinton did. Hillary Clinton

:47:11. > :47:14.has shown grace and real leadership, what leadership actually means and

:47:15. > :47:18.that's gact r exactly the blow that was needed for voters that were

:47:19. > :47:24.maybe on the fence. They saw a child and they saw an actual leader who

:47:25. > :47:29.can lead this country into continued greatness and success... Actually

:47:30. > :47:36.last night was the first time we have seen a very good adult Donald.

:47:37. > :47:41.He didn't take the bait. He was very clear on his positions. He had one

:47:42. > :47:48.liners and a little bit of humour and I can tell you that I am very

:47:49. > :47:55.glad he apologised once again because that man has never said I'm

:47:56. > :48:00.sorry and it was 11 years ago and I know the argument is, but he's

:48:01. > :48:04.running for president. Can we give a little consideration to the fact

:48:05. > :48:08.that he knew nothing about running a campaign and look what he has

:48:09. > :48:13.achieved? And can we give a little bit of credit to the fact that he

:48:14. > :48:21.has been dealing with people and might have developed some awareness

:48:22. > :48:25.and really is contrite in some ways. He has been disgusting... You come

:48:26. > :48:29.back The thing about Donald Trump is not childish, he apologised, that's

:48:30. > :48:32.not true. Donald Trump has said things about women. Last night he

:48:33. > :48:40.barely apologised for the things that he said about women on that

:48:41. > :48:44.tape. He is a human being and when he apologises, he apologises as if

:48:45. > :48:51.he doesn't really want to apologise, he is being forced to apologise for

:48:52. > :48:54.talking about touching women in an inappropriate way and calling them

:48:55. > :49:02.fat figures, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton, they have baggage.

:49:03. > :49:07.Funny enough her response on the e-mails and the server reminds me of

:49:08. > :49:12.my 11-year-old. Every time he says, "I'm sorry." "I was wrong with the

:49:13. > :49:15.server and I should have known better and I'm sorry and I

:49:16. > :49:20.apologise." It doesn't work like that. This shows bad judgement to

:49:21. > :49:24.put Government e-mails on a private server and to come up with the

:49:25. > :49:29.excuse well, the machine was never hacked. Isn't it the same when he

:49:30. > :49:37.says, "I'm sorry for making those gross comments. That's not who I

:49:38. > :49:40.am." No, it is actions versus words. Infidelity, he doesn't apologise

:49:41. > :49:46.for, not paying people, that he doesn't apologise for. He had words,

:49:47. > :49:52.he had actions... He has apologised for that. He is not a leader. What

:49:53. > :49:57.sort of a leader was Bill Clinton? Bill Clinton is not running for

:49:58. > :50:02.president. We put a stain on the office of president and she was

:50:03. > :50:05.there as his wife and First Lady and he was be back there if she is

:50:06. > :50:08.elected and will be running the economy in her words and will be

:50:09. > :50:15.advising her. Is that the sort of person we want back in the White

:50:16. > :50:20.House? I wanted to say on his comment about. Polling shows when

:50:21. > :50:25.you have been bring up the sexual harassment of Bill Clinton or the

:50:26. > :50:29.adultery, women don't want to hear that because they don't appreciate

:50:30. > :50:34.Donald Trump and her camp trying to pin that on Hillary Clinton. She is

:50:35. > :50:39.a victim herself with her husband having committed adultery multiple

:50:40. > :50:46.times and that happened in the 1990s and we've exhausted that argument.

:50:47. > :50:53.He was impeached by the House. He wasn't impeached by the Senate.

:50:54. > :50:58.Donald made comments in a private capacity in 11 years ago so that's

:50:59. > :51:02.in the past as well. I think all this women stuff and this was said

:51:03. > :51:05.and everything else, let's look at really important issues. Seven out

:51:06. > :51:11.of ten Americans think we're headed in the wrong direction. Hillary

:51:12. > :51:15.Clinton wants to be the third term of president Obama. Well, why does

:51:16. > :51:18.she want to ride his coat tails and why did she ride Bill's coat tails

:51:19. > :51:23.and she wants Bill to take care of the economy if we have a woman

:51:24. > :51:27.president, I would much prefer to know what legacy she wants to

:51:28. > :51:31.create. You know what, the voters don't really care about some of the

:51:32. > :51:35.stuff we were just quibbling about. They care about jobsment they care

:51:36. > :51:40.about economy. They care about national security. And even though

:51:41. > :51:43.Trump started with immigration, that is the foundation because that, they

:51:44. > :51:47.think, is the source of the problem, that has taken jobs, has hurt our

:51:48. > :51:52.economy, and threatens our national security.

:51:53. > :51:58.Ursula, let's talk about policies? I don't understand how you can say

:51:59. > :52:07.that Hillary Clinton is riding on anyone's coat tails... Policy. She

:52:08. > :52:13.had the policy of raising taxes for the rich. Raising taxes? For the

:52:14. > :52:16.rich to help the middle-class. Because the middle-class was being

:52:17. > :52:23.stifled by the rich always getting everything. All the time. The top

:52:24. > :52:26.12% pay half of all the income taxes in the United States. At least Mr

:52:27. > :52:33.Trump is talking about growing the economy. We have something like $2.5

:52:34. > :52:36.trillion that is off-shore right now, companies won't bring back

:52:37. > :52:39.because it is too expensive. He wants to drop the corporate rate. We

:52:40. > :52:43.have the highest corporate rate in the world. Drop it. Bring the money

:52:44. > :52:51.in and grow the economy and get people into jobs.

:52:52. > :52:55.Mr Trump claims he is all about America, and make America great, but

:52:56. > :52:59.a lot of his jobs are in other countries. How do you explain that?

:53:00. > :53:05.How are we supposed to trust a man who takes advantage of the tax

:53:06. > :53:09.system? You're wrong again. To put losses against future earns or

:53:10. > :53:14.future profits is done constantly - hold on. It is done by everybody. It

:53:15. > :53:20.is ethical. It is common place. I have talked to my accountant and

:53:21. > :53:23.accountants and businessmen in the States, you want entrepreneurs like

:53:24. > :53:27.Dyson or Richard Branson to take risks and when they lose money you

:53:28. > :53:31.want to make it easier for them to still invest. They will always have

:53:32. > :53:38.losses and always mess up until they find the right thing and that's what

:53:39. > :53:45.happened with Trump. ? In 2014, Hillary Clinton used the same law to

:53:46. > :53:53.take $700,000 off her taxes. The New York Times really committed

:53:54. > :53:57.malfeasance in saying 18 years. The law requires you show a profit one

:53:58. > :54:03.out of every five years. They used it when they had pre-tax profits of

:54:04. > :54:07.$29.3 million. They used the tax laws and instead of paying, they got

:54:08. > :54:18.$4 million back from the Government, but then they create this ridiculous

:54:19. > :54:23.misleading 18 years he has not paid. He hasn't paid taxes in 18 years and

:54:24. > :54:29.he bragged about it on the debates, not once, but twice. Ursula? I don't

:54:30. > :54:35.understand how it is OK for a billionaire to do these things and

:54:36. > :54:42.to use these laws, but then someone else can't obey the law... I've used

:54:43. > :54:45.it. I've used it. In criticising Trump because Trump wants to save

:54:46. > :54:49.people money, he doesn't want the Government to cost as much, but I

:54:50. > :54:54.ran a consulting business for 20 years, it is the cost of doing

:54:55. > :54:57.business, it is deappreciation, it is paying salaries, and there are

:54:58. > :55:01.some years you make some money and there are some years that you just

:55:02. > :55:07.might not and you have to tap into your savings.

:55:08. > :55:11.OK, tell that to the middle-classment You can't even

:55:12. > :55:17.stand on anything that he says. You can actually see through from

:55:18. > :55:24.someone who handed in their tax return like every other presidential

:55:25. > :55:30.candidate has done. Can you tell me something good about Hillary? The

:55:31. > :55:34.policy seems to be let's critique Trump. She has given women a

:55:35. > :55:42.platform and negotiated peace treaties wheel she was US senator

:55:43. > :55:47.and as Secretary of State, so she had years and years where she has

:55:48. > :55:50.created policies and been there for working families and when you're in

:55:51. > :55:54.the public eye for so long, you're not perfect, but at the same time,

:55:55. > :56:00.you're creating real change. Doing business... What change? Let's ask

:56:01. > :56:05.the question. Let's ask the question back. What change? When you look

:56:06. > :56:10.what happened especially to black families in America, the increase in

:56:11. > :56:16.food stamps, we have had growth of less than 2% over the last eight

:56:17. > :56:23.years. Final, final word to you Charlie, the qualities of Donald

:56:24. > :56:26.Trump as Ursula talked about He is a businessman. He knows how to get

:56:27. > :56:30.people around a table and use his judgement to make decisions. Hillary

:56:31. > :56:37.Clinton has a lot of experience and have very smooth and has a lot of

:56:38. > :56:41.lines, what she lacks is taking the wisdom in how to present the facts

:56:42. > :56:49.that are presented to her. Thank you.

:56:50. > :56:53.We have got comments from you about the report that Conservative MP

:56:54. > :56:58.Johnny Mercer brought to you this morning. He spoke to three former

:56:59. > :57:02.heads of the British Army who believe that this historic

:57:03. > :57:06.investigation into British soldiers really has gone on for too long and

:57:07. > :57:10.should be wound-up. David, "To the critics of our armed force, if you

:57:11. > :57:14.can't stand behind our armed forces and support them, feel free to stand

:57:15. > :57:19.in front of them." Sally tweets this, "A fair legal process presumes

:57:20. > :57:29.innocence and doesn't violate the rights of the accused to fabricate

:57:30. > :57:34.cases without foundation. End IHAT." Phil says, "Are they mad? Soldiers

:57:35. > :57:39.prosecuted for doing their jobs. It is a national scandal." Ian says, "I

:57:40. > :57:45.am an ex-soldier, I served my Queen and country. I never heard of any

:57:46. > :57:49.abuses." Stewart says, "My brother witnessed the abuse when he was

:57:50. > :57:54.serving in the Prince of Wales regiment in Iraq in 2003. He

:57:55. > :57:58.complained to top brass about the treatment of Iraqi prisoners and the

:57:59. > :58:02.response of the Army was to place him in military jail for two weeks

:58:03. > :58:04.and threaten his family and discharge him. There are many

:58:05. > :58:07.questions that need answering and the top brass of the military should

:58:08. > :58:09.be forced to answer them." Keep them coming in and we will talk

:58:10. > :58:14.more about the issue after 10am. Coming up, should Parliament get

:58:15. > :58:16.a say over the Government's The former Labour leader

:58:17. > :58:19.Ed Miliband thinks so. We'll be talking to him about it

:58:20. > :58:24.just after 10am. Let's get the latest

:58:25. > :58:33.weather update with Carol. Good morning, wasn't it cold this

:58:34. > :58:39.morning, Victoria, did you notice? I didn't. My head was elsewhere!

:58:40. > :58:44.We have had the coldest night of the autumn. Now, what we have as we go

:58:45. > :58:47.through the next couple of days is sunny spells, rather like today,

:58:48. > :58:51.we've got some showers in the east rather like today, but it is going

:58:52. > :58:56.to turn colder. Last week some of us had temperatures up to 20 Celsius.

:58:57. > :59:02.This week, we're not expecting those dizzy heights. We have this great

:59:03. > :59:08.big blocking area of high pressure across across Scandinavia.

:59:09. > :59:12.It is dragging in some showers from the North Sea and that is the case

:59:13. > :59:17.today. We've got the showers coming in. Some of them are heavy. Don't be

:59:18. > :59:21.surprised if there is the odd rumble of thunder. Through the day some of

:59:22. > :59:25.them will move across the Pennines, into the Midlands and the London

:59:26. > :59:28.area, but drift further west and we're under brighter skies and

:59:29. > :59:32.sunshine. So this afternoon, you can see we have a plethora of showers

:59:33. > :59:36.around. In between, there will be some sunny spells or bright spells

:59:37. > :59:39.at worst. That continues into south-west England, heading into

:59:40. > :59:42.Wales, you could catch the odd shower in Wales. We have had showers

:59:43. > :59:46.across north-west England this morning, but most of them will fade

:59:47. > :59:49.and we carry on with a few showers in Eastern Scotland, but a lot of

:59:50. > :59:53.dry weather in Scotland and after showers, and a cloudy start in

:59:54. > :59:56.Northern Ireland, things brightening up and also drying up. Now through

:59:57. > :00:00.the course of this evening and overnight, we will have showers for

:00:01. > :00:04.a time. Most of them fading back to the east and around the channel

:00:05. > :00:09.coastline. Still a breezy night. Some clear skies, so under the clear

:00:10. > :00:11.skies that's where we will have the lowest temperatures, generally in

:00:12. > :00:15.towns and cities between seven and ten Celsius, but in the countryside

:00:16. > :00:18.lower, so again, in prone areas tonight, we are likely to see a

:00:19. > :00:21.touch of frost. So tomorrow morning, we start off

:00:22. > :00:25.with clear skies, meaning a lovely sparkly start to the day with

:00:26. > :00:28.sunshine. But there will be more showers around tomorrow. Some of

:00:29. > :00:32.them could merge and the other thing about tomorrow is, there will be a

:00:33. > :00:36.brisker breeze and it is coming from the cold east to north easterly

:00:37. > :00:40.direction. So despite the fact that we've got temperatures between 11

:00:41. > :00:44.and 16 Celsius, up a touch on today, it will actually feel colder. But

:00:45. > :00:47.once again, if you're out in the west, that's where we're going to

:00:48. > :00:50.see the best of the sunshine, not too bad in southern areas either.

:00:51. > :00:55.For Wednesday, it is more of the same again. Still this keen easterly

:00:56. > :00:58.breeze, blowing in the showers. Brighter skies out towards the west.

:00:59. > :01:02.That's where we'll have the sunshine. And temperature values

:01:03. > :01:05.well in the breeze, feeling cooler, we're looking at 11 Celsius to 15

:01:06. > :01:09.Celsius. Just a quick look ahead, you can see low pressure moving

:01:10. > :01:13.across the Bay of Biscay in across parts of France, high pressure to

:01:14. > :01:14.the north of us, look at that squeeze, that tells you it will turn

:01:15. > :01:18.windier by the end of this week. It's Monday, 10 o'clock,

:01:19. > :01:23.I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Welcome to the programme,

:01:24. > :01:25.if you've just joined us. Donald Trump threatens

:01:26. > :01:27.Hillary Clinton with jail in what's being called the worst-tempered

:01:28. > :01:32.Presidential debate in US history. I apologised to my family,

:01:33. > :01:40.I apologised to the American people. He has said that the video doesn't

:01:41. > :01:45.represent who he is. But I think it is clear to anyone

:01:46. > :01:48.who heard it that it I was so surprised to see him

:01:49. > :01:56.sign on with the devil. But when you talk about apology,

:01:57. > :02:00.I think the one that you should really be apologising for,

:02:01. > :02:02.the thing that you should be apologising for, are

:02:03. > :02:07.the 33,000 e-mails. Is just awfully good that someone

:02:08. > :02:09.with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge

:02:10. > :02:13.of the law in this country. We're facing one of the most

:02:14. > :02:20.serious injustices in British military history -

:02:21. > :02:22.the words of one former soldier, now a Tory MP,

:02:23. > :02:25.who in an investigation for this programme says the way

:02:26. > :02:27.we investigate allegations of abuse by soldiers in Iraq is destroying

:02:28. > :02:44.the lives of some of our I couldn't sleep that night, I was

:02:45. > :02:49.crying. I was sick. Most nights I didn't want to wake up. I would be

:02:50. > :02:55.gutted every time my eyes opened. That night, I tried to take my own

:02:56. > :02:57.life. It was worse than any war I have ever fought.

:02:58. > :03:00.We'll hear more of his story and ask whether the system is broken

:03:01. > :03:05.Also in the programme - why former Labour leader Ed Miliband

:03:06. > :03:07.is trying to force a vote in Parliament over Brexit.

:03:08. > :03:14.We speak to him live in just a moment.

:03:15. > :03:16.Here's Joanna Gosling in the BBC Newsroom

:03:17. > :03:19.Bitter words have been exchanged between Hillary Clinton

:03:20. > :03:23.and Donald Trump during their second US presidential debate.

:03:24. > :03:25.Mrs Clinton said the Republican candidate's remarks about groping

:03:26. > :03:30.women showed he wasn't fit to be president.

:03:31. > :03:32.Mr Trump repeatedly called his Democratic opponent a liar

:03:33. > :03:37.and accused her husband of abusing women.

:03:38. > :03:39.Three former heads of the British Army have criticised

:03:40. > :03:42.the mechanism set up to investigate allegations of historic abuse by UK

:03:43. > :03:48.The Iraq Historic Allegations Team was set-up to examine claims

:03:49. > :03:53.of abuse by British forces in Iraq dating back to 2003.

:03:54. > :03:55.It's been repeatedly criticised for its investigative methods

:03:56. > :03:57.and for pursuing claims against soldiers who've already been

:03:58. > :04:16.In my time, we began to see that it was growing as a many headed Hydra.

:04:17. > :04:17.We need was growing as a many headed Hydra.

:04:18. > :04:17.We need to wind these investigations up as quickly as possible. It's not

:04:18. > :04:19.on, not good for individuals, not fair for individuals and it is

:04:20. > :04:25.definitely harmful for operational effectiveness. Obviously I would

:04:26. > :04:29.like to see soldiers that are innocent of any such behaviour, the

:04:30. > :04:31.burden lifted from them. The RMT union says that

:04:32. > :04:34.Southern Rail is to take legal action to try and stop a series

:04:35. > :04:37.of strikes due to start tomorrow. The union is planning 14 days

:04:38. > :04:40.of strikes until December in protest at changes to the role

:04:41. > :04:43.of conductors. The company insists that moving

:04:44. > :04:46.conductors to new posts of on-board supervisor will not affect

:04:47. > :04:48.jobs or safety. Police in Germany say they've

:04:49. > :04:51.captured a Syrian refugee who's suspected of planning

:04:52. > :04:53.an Islamist bomb attack. Jaber al-Bakr - who's believed

:04:54. > :04:56.to have links with the Islamic State group - was detained in Leipzig

:04:57. > :05:08.after a two-day search. People who publish personal

:05:09. > :05:10.information about someone on the internet or encourage online

:05:11. > :05:12.harassment could be The guidelines come into force today

:05:13. > :05:18.in England and Wales. The CPS says it will exercise

:05:19. > :05:20.considerable caution before charging those who post "grossly

:05:21. > :05:22.offensive" material online, That's a summary of the latest BBC

:05:23. > :05:31.News - more at 10.30. The former Labour leader

:05:32. > :05:34.Ed Milliband is calling for a vote in Parliament on the Government's

:05:35. > :05:47.plans for Brexit. If you're getting in touch, use the

:05:48. > :05:51.hashtag. Time for the sport. There semifinalist at the European

:05:52. > :05:57.Championships, Wales have not hit those heights in the World Cup

:05:58. > :06:00.qualifying. They have an two draws against Lithuania and last night at

:06:01. > :06:04.home to Georgia. Wales were clear favourites against a team over 100

:06:05. > :06:08.places below them in the rankings and opened the scoring through

:06:09. > :06:11.Gareth Bale. The goal came after ten minutes. They lost control of the

:06:12. > :06:19.match in the second half and Georgia were able to equalise, and had

:06:20. > :06:27.chances to win late on. They sit third in the group. Andy Murray is

:06:28. > :06:32.building up to summer. He won his fifth title at the China open and

:06:33. > :06:37.has set his sights on becoming world number one. He won in straight sets

:06:38. > :06:40.to narrow the gap on Novak Djokovic. With high-scoring events in Shanghai

:06:41. > :06:44.and Paris to come, both of which could see a struggling Novak

:06:45. > :06:48.Djokovic dropping points if he fails to defend his titles, Murray is

:06:49. > :06:53.waiting in the wings with a large trophy to capitalise. I never

:06:54. > :06:59.expected to win that many tournaments. When I first came onto,

:07:00. > :07:03.you don't expect to win one. As you get older, and experience winning,

:07:04. > :07:09.you want to continue doing that. I'm glad I managed to get to 40. It has

:07:10. > :07:14.been the best year of my career. The next target is trying to get to 50,

:07:15. > :07:20.which is going to be hard. Johanna Konta is on the rise, despite losing

:07:21. > :07:23.in the women's final in China to Agnieszka Radwanska. She was beaten

:07:24. > :07:29.in straight sets, but the run to the final means she is now in the top

:07:30. > :07:33.ten and also in qualifying session for the lucrative world tour finals,

:07:34. > :07:34.where the best eight players go head-to-head in Singapore at the end

:07:35. > :07:40.of the month. And it all got a little heated

:07:41. > :07:43.as England lost to Bangladesh Stand in captain Jos Butler unhappy

:07:44. > :07:47.at the way the hosts England's hopes of wrapping up

:07:48. > :07:51.the series went as he trudged off. Ben Stokes later tweeted,

:07:52. > :07:53."Congrats to Bangladesh on the win tonight,outplayed us,what

:07:54. > :07:56.I won't stand for is someone putting a shoulder to my teammate

:07:57. > :07:57.at handshakes". Emotions running high after

:07:58. > :07:59.questions about whether the tour should have gone ahead,

:08:00. > :08:02.it all comes down now The former Labour leader

:08:03. > :08:17.Ed Milliband is calling for a vote in Parliament on the Government's

:08:18. > :08:20.plans for Brexit. And Ed Miliband, who voted

:08:21. > :08:31.for the UK to remain in the EU, Good morning. What exactly is it

:08:32. > :08:34.that you want? First thing to say is that I accept the result of this

:08:35. > :08:39.referendum. The British people voted to leave the European Union. We need

:08:40. > :08:42.to honour that vote. This is not about trying to reverse the result

:08:43. > :08:47.through Parliament. But what they did not vote for was a particular

:08:48. > :08:50.type of Brexit. There are lots of decisions to be made about

:08:51. > :08:55.immigration, the economy and the single market. My point is

:08:56. > :08:59.Parliament has got to take a view on that, if like, to give the

:09:00. > :09:03.government a mandate for the negotiations. We now know that

:09:04. > :09:08.Theresa May is going to be triggering Article 50 to start

:09:09. > :09:11.leaving the European Union. The Government can't do these

:09:12. > :09:14.negotiations without getting the consent of Parliament for the way

:09:15. > :09:16.they are going to go about the negotiations and what they are going

:09:17. > :09:19.to be arguing for the British people. Ultimately, that is the

:09:20. > :09:24.point. If this is about sovereignty, the sovereignty of the people, which

:09:25. > :09:29.lots of people that wanted to leave the European Union said it was, then

:09:30. > :09:32.Parliament, representative of the people, they have to take a view and

:09:33. > :09:36.the people have to be consulted. People have to have laid before them

:09:37. > :09:41.the choices on strategy of the government. The British public voted

:09:42. > :09:45.to leave the EU, they did not vote to leave the EU subject to a vote by

:09:46. > :09:50.you and your colleagues in Parliament? Exactly, which is why I

:09:51. > :09:54.am not saying to reverse the result. Some people said it is an advisory

:09:55. > :09:58.referendum, we should not go through with this, I am not saying that. I

:09:59. > :10:01.am saying we are going to believe in European Union, that is what the

:10:02. > :10:05.British people voted for. But we've got to get the negotiations right.

:10:06. > :10:07.Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, said last week that the British people

:10:08. > :10:12.didn't vote to make themselves poorer. He is right about that. What

:10:13. > :10:16.worried me about some of what we heard at the Conservative conference

:10:17. > :10:21.was that I understand the concerns about immigration, I see them in my

:10:22. > :10:25.own constituency, but what I felt was our whole economy was in danger

:10:26. > :10:29.of being thrown off cliff. The biggest trading relationship, in the

:10:30. > :10:33.single market, in a cavalier fashion. The way we have to go about

:10:34. > :10:38.the negotiations is careful, considered and consultative way,

:10:39. > :10:41.with Parliament and the people. The Government has the authority to

:10:42. > :10:45.deliver the will of the people without having to go back to

:10:46. > :10:52.Parliament to check with MPs the terms of Brexit? I think that is an

:10:53. > :10:56.open question. In principle, politically, for the good of the

:10:57. > :11:01.country, I don't really think the Government has a right. If they had

:11:02. > :11:03.begun the negotiations without consulting Parliament, after less

:11:04. > :11:07.than two years they will come to Parliament and say yes or no. I

:11:08. > :11:10.assume they will try to get the final negotiation through

:11:11. > :11:15.Parliament. It will be too late by then. We need to be knowing now what

:11:16. > :11:18.the Government is going to be negotiating for. I believe they need

:11:19. > :11:22.to get the consent of MPs. There is no other mandate here. The

:11:23. > :11:26.Conservative manifesto said the Conservative Party was determined to

:11:27. > :11:37.stay in the single market. It sounded from what Theresa May and

:11:38. > :11:40.some of her ministers were saying that we were going to leave the

:11:41. > :11:42.single market, contrary to the manifesto. There is no mandate for

:11:43. > :11:45.hard Brexit, a huge separation from the single market, I don't believe.

:11:46. > :11:48.That is why I think Parliament has to be consulted. What is the process

:11:49. > :11:51.of how MPs would get a vote? It is for the government EU to think about

:11:52. > :11:53.this, my suggestion would be they put forward a negotiating strategy

:11:54. > :11:58.and a white or green paper, and Parliament votes on that. Why would

:11:59. > :12:02.they show their hand to the EU leaders? The reality is that these

:12:03. > :12:13.negotiations will be pretty public, pretty quickly. Very little secret

:12:14. > :12:16.in today's world. Once they go into these negotiations, it will be

:12:17. > :12:18.pretty clear. It should be done by a series of half briefings and leaks.

:12:19. > :12:20.The Government should set out the opening position. Maybe not it's

:12:21. > :12:24.totally final position, but the opening position come in a white or

:12:25. > :12:29.green paper. But it to Parliament and that will force them to consult

:12:30. > :12:33.MPs of all parties. It is not just Labour MP saying it, Tory MPs, it is

:12:34. > :12:37.not just remainers saying for it, people that voted for Leave. I was

:12:38. > :12:41.talking to Stephen Phillips and he is concerned about this. He is a

:12:42. > :12:45.Conservative MP supporting Leave. It is not about rerunning the

:12:46. > :12:49.referendum, it is about getting the right outcome for the country. If

:12:50. > :12:54.you got that vote and Parliament voted against the Government, would

:12:55. > :12:56.that mean that Britain remained in the European Union? No, it would

:12:57. > :12:59.mean the Government would have to come back with a different

:13:00. > :13:03.negotiating strategy because they would not have got the consent of

:13:04. > :13:07.Parliament. These negotiations don't just matter for two or three years,

:13:08. > :13:10.they will matter for the next 20, 30, 40 years, our place in the

:13:11. > :13:17.world, the economy, jobs and livelihoods. These are too important

:13:18. > :13:19.to be done in closed-door discussions in Government, when

:13:20. > :13:28.there is no mandate for the negotiations the government is

:13:29. > :13:30.involved in. You say it is not about rerunning the referendum, but there

:13:31. > :13:34.will still be people watching you now that will suspect as a remainer,

:13:35. > :13:38.you are trying to deny the outcome of the referendum with a vote in

:13:39. > :13:42.Parliament? I'm not. One of the reasons I am not as my own

:13:43. > :13:47.constituency. Doncaster voted 69% to leave the European Union. I have

:13:48. > :13:50.heard the mandate. But I owe it, as somebody that was elected by my

:13:51. > :13:56.constituents, to seek the best outcome for them, given what they

:13:57. > :13:59.voted for. People did not vote for a particular type of Brexit. That was

:14:00. > :14:04.part of the problem of the campaign, it was not clear what we were voting

:14:05. > :14:08.for. I think a lot of people will be thinking, whether they voted Remain

:14:09. > :14:11.Leave, the right thing to do is to get the best outcome for the

:14:12. > :14:17.country. Of course there has to be parliamentary consent. The sovereign

:14:18. > :14:21.body is Parliament, the people are sovereign, this was supposed to be

:14:22. > :14:28.returning sovereignty. How can you bypass the sovereign body of the

:14:29. > :14:31.people, Parliament? Of the mood music was for soft Brexit, still

:14:32. > :14:36.being a member of the single market with less control on immigration,

:14:37. > :14:40.would you still be arguing for this? If the mood music from government

:14:41. > :14:44.was? I am more alarmed by the hard Brexit position the Government is

:14:45. > :14:48.taking. I will be honest, it is not just me that is alarmed, the CBI is

:14:49. > :14:53.extremely alarmed. I am worried about the direction it is going. But

:14:54. > :15:00.I think the principle is right. The principle of Parliament being

:15:01. > :15:04.consulted is the right one. I want to move on to a couple of other

:15:05. > :15:08.issues. I would like to play a clip of Theresa May's speech from the

:15:09. > :15:15.Conservative Party conference last week, which I am sure you heard bits

:15:16. > :15:27.of. To stand for the week and to stand up to strong. He may be strong

:15:28. > :15:30.standing up to the weak, but he is always weak when it comes to

:15:31. > :15:33.standing up against the strong. Where markets are dysfunctional, we

:15:34. > :15:36.should be prepared to intervene. Some people will blame the

:15:37. > :15:40.companies. Ultimately, I don't think that is where the blame lies. It

:15:41. > :15:44.lies with government. I think it lies with government for not having

:15:45. > :15:46.had the strength to take this on. Not having stood up. Stood up to the

:15:47. > :15:56.powerful interests. Wet within our society today we see

:15:57. > :15:59.division and unfairness all around, between a more prosperous older

:16:00. > :16:03.generation and a struggling younger generation. Between the wealth of

:16:04. > :16:08.London and the rest of the country. But perhaps most of all, between the

:16:09. > :16:12.rich, the successful and the powerful and their fellow citizens.

:16:13. > :16:15.Are you satisfied with the country which shuts out the voices of

:16:16. > :16:20.millions of ordinary people and licence only to the powerful? Are

:16:21. > :16:25.you satisfied with a country standing apart as two nations? Well,

:16:26. > :16:32.I'm not satisfied. We're Britain. We're better than this.

:16:33. > :16:35.Well... Look, it is true. I helped Theresa May write the speech!

:16:36. > :16:41.LAUGHTER When you were watching her, what was

:16:42. > :16:46.your actual reaction? Gosh. It sounds familiar. Look, let me give

:16:47. > :16:49.her a bit of credit for a second because I think what she did

:16:50. > :16:52.recognise in her conference speech and before was that this referendum,

:16:53. > :16:55.this Brexit vote, wasn't just about Europe. Of course, it was about

:16:56. > :16:58.Europe and immigration and so on, but it was about a deeper

:16:59. > :17:03.dissatisfaction with the direction of the countriment now, look, the

:17:04. > :17:06.question for is can she deliver? Can she deliver on the things she is

:17:07. > :17:09.planning, she will cut tax credits which is bad for the people she is

:17:10. > :17:14.talking about. I think hard Brexit will be bad fort people that she's

:17:15. > :17:19.talking about. She was famously I think having dinner with Rupert

:17:20. > :17:23.Murdoch, I don't think he agrees with the policies she is talking

:17:24. > :17:28.about. Where is the policy on non-doms? Let's judge her. I'll

:17:29. > :17:33.judge her on her actions. I want to ask you about the US Presidential

:17:34. > :17:37.debate last night? Yes. A you are a keen follower of US politics? I

:17:38. > :17:40.didn't stay up for it. You followed the news this morning, there is a

:17:41. > :17:43.comparison between Donald Trump and Jeremy Corbyn, but in the fact that

:17:44. > :17:47.they attract those people who are anti-politics, do you think that's

:17:48. > :17:53.fair? I think it is different, but the similarities are these which is

:17:54. > :17:56.that all around the world people are tapping into deep discontent with

:17:57. > :17:58.the way the country is going. I think Jeremy Corbyn has totally

:17:59. > :18:04.different solutions from Donald Trump as I think both of them would

:18:05. > :18:07.say as well. I think it is very troubling the Donald Trump

:18:08. > :18:09.candidacy, whatever the outcome, it is troubling because millions and

:18:10. > :18:15.millions of Americans will vote for him and I think it is a real sign

:18:16. > :18:19.that the sort of capital system, the kind of system that America and

:18:20. > :18:24.indeed Britain is putting forward is in real disrepute with people and if

:18:25. > :18:29.people are willing to ignore that terrible tape, anies racism, it

:18:30. > :18:32.tells you something about how deep the dissatisfaction is. Do you

:18:33. > :18:36.believe Labour can win a general election under Jeremy Corbyn?

:18:37. > :18:41.Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, he got re-elected by our party. We've got

:18:42. > :18:45.more members than I think we've in in 40 or 50 years. He has mobilised

:18:46. > :18:49.party members and people who weren't party members in a way that even I

:18:50. > :18:53.didn't do so. Now the task is for all of us to take this out to the

:18:54. > :18:57.country and convince the country and you know think there has been a

:18:58. > :19:02.change in terms of attitude and will among the Parliamentary party since

:19:03. > :19:05.Jeremy's re-election of the there is an acceptance that he won. An

:19:06. > :19:08.acceptance that people have got to work with him and support him. It

:19:09. > :19:11.doesn't mean there won't be disagreements and there won't be,

:19:12. > :19:15.you know, constant peace, but it does mean there is a sense that

:19:16. > :19:19.we've got to focus on the country and not the party. How will you

:19:20. > :19:22.measure his success as we head towards a general election? What are

:19:23. > :19:28.you looking for in term of the wider electorate? As a former leader, I

:19:29. > :19:31.never liked it when other leaders commentated and marked me out of

:19:32. > :19:35.continue. So I'm not going to mark him out of ten. I think this Brexit

:19:36. > :19:38.thing is really important. It is one of the things I'm concentrating on,

:19:39. > :19:42.but I'm going to support him. The party made its choice and I think we

:19:43. > :19:45.should accept it. His latest top team appointments came last week,

:19:46. > :19:51.were you invited to be a member of it? I wasn't invited formally.

:19:52. > :19:55.Informally? I made clear for sometime that I thought my role was

:19:56. > :19:58.best served on the back benches because I have been on the frontline

:19:59. > :20:04.for a long time. I wanted a break from the frontline. I thought there

:20:05. > :20:07.was other things I wanted to do from the back benches. So that means you

:20:08. > :20:11.wouldn't serve on the frontbench under Jeremy Corbyn? It doesn't mean

:20:12. > :20:15.that, no. At the moment I'm happy doing what I'm doing. OK. A word

:20:16. > :20:19.about the reshuffle. Two Labour whips, whips people responsible for

:20:20. > :20:23.party discipline resigned overnight in protest at the sacking of the

:20:24. > :20:27.Chief Whip Rosie Winterton, do you think that was a brutal sacking?

:20:28. > :20:31.Well, Rosie is a really good friend of mine and I appointed here as

:20:32. > :20:35.Chief Whip. She is a brilliant person and she was always the first

:20:36. > :20:41.name on my team sheet as I would always say to her, but leaders have

:20:42. > :20:46.to make their decisions and like' not going to commentate on his

:20:47. > :20:52.performance or reshuffle. He won the leadership election and he is

:20:53. > :20:55.entitled to do that. Do former Labour leaders comment on former

:20:56. > :20:58.Labour colleagues being on Strictly Come Dancing? He's brilliant. You

:20:59. > :21:02.know, he has got better and better, hasn't he? There he is!

:21:03. > :21:07.Do you think he has got better and better? What are you basing that on?

:21:08. > :21:12.Didn't he do better last week than he did the week before He has thrown

:21:13. > :21:17.himself into it. A national treasure. I'm not going to paint my

:21:18. > :21:18.face green any time soon, but it suits him let me say! Thank you very

:21:19. > :21:23.much for talking to us, Ed Miliband. A Twitter hashtag "not "OK"

:21:24. > :21:34.is being used by women to talk about their personal experiences

:21:35. > :21:36.of sexual assaults after Donald Trump made those remarks

:21:37. > :21:38.about groping women. We'll be talking to two women

:21:39. > :21:39.who have shared their stories. This morning soldiers have been

:21:40. > :21:42.telling this programme their lives are being ruined by investigations

:21:43. > :21:43.into allegations of And three former heads

:21:44. > :21:49.of the British Army have broken rank to tell us about their concerns over

:21:50. > :21:52.the way it's being handled. The Iraq Historic Allegations team

:21:53. > :21:55.was set-up in 2010 to examine claims of abuse by British forces in Iraq

:21:56. > :22:00.dating back to 2003. It's been repeatedly criticised

:22:01. > :22:04.for its investigative methods and for pursuing claims

:22:05. > :22:08.against soldiers who've already been acquitted of any crime,

:22:09. > :22:10.claims that have been described The Conservative MP Johnny Mercer,

:22:11. > :22:20.a former army captain, has been He spoke to "John" -

:22:21. > :22:27.not his real name - who described going through

:22:28. > :22:29.the process of being investigated for alleged abuses whilst

:22:30. > :22:31.on operations, and the affect We were accused, we were accused of

:22:32. > :22:40.a lad who drowned to death. And, you know, the other three

:22:41. > :22:43.people who were there, the other three Iraqis,

:22:44. > :22:45.they accused us of beating So, in the immediate

:22:46. > :22:51.aftermath of Yeah, it was chaos,

:22:52. > :23:00.I'm not going to lie. It was something I'd never seen

:23:01. > :23:03.in my life, and I don't think I could ever contemplate how bad

:23:04. > :23:06.it was going to be before It didn't last long,

:23:07. > :23:11.but it was tough because we lost a couple of colleagues,

:23:12. > :23:14.and two or three others were shot. I remember being in a room,

:23:15. > :23:21.it was pitch black, I remember sitting, thinking

:23:22. > :23:25.to myself, I'm not coming home. What is the first you heard that it

:23:26. > :23:33.was going to be investigated? I'd come home, went on a tour

:23:34. > :23:36.of Northern Ireland. After that, I came in and a couple

:23:37. > :23:39.gentleman came into my They said, I'm arresting

:23:40. > :23:48.you on suspicion of You know, it was the proudest day

:23:49. > :24:00.of my life and I became a soldier. It became my worst

:24:01. > :24:03.mistake overnight. They interrogated me

:24:04. > :24:09.for hours and hours. When I came home that day,

:24:10. > :24:19.I thought, it can't be real, There's no way this

:24:20. > :24:22.has happened to me. I came home from a

:24:23. > :24:26.soldier's life a hero, And most days I didn't

:24:27. > :24:49.even want to wake up. I used to be gutted every

:24:50. > :24:52.time my eyes opened in the morning. Why couldn't I just fall

:24:53. > :24:56.asleep and not wake up? And I shouldn't have

:24:57. > :24:58.had to feel that way. I shouldn't have had to come down

:24:59. > :25:00.that road of... And then that night,

:25:01. > :25:03.I tried to take my own life. And them saying to me,

:25:04. > :25:11."you're not well". I wouldn't take it,

:25:12. > :25:18.I was saying, I'm OK. No one knew how to deal

:25:19. > :25:27.with me, you know? The place that I went to that time,

:25:28. > :25:30.it's worse than anyone It became clear that this

:25:31. > :25:33.harassment, going back over ten years, has had an incredibly

:25:34. > :25:36.destructive effect on his life. What would you say to those

:25:37. > :25:38.who would say to you, the end of the day, this young lad

:25:39. > :25:41.is dead, we want to Do think it is fair

:25:42. > :25:46.to investigate that? Yeah, somebody has died,

:25:47. > :25:49.I understand investigating it. It was a tragic accident and I am

:25:50. > :25:52.truly sorry for the lad If I could save someone's

:25:53. > :26:04.life, I would. I can certainly tell you it didn't

:26:05. > :26:07.happen the way they painted it. So, since then, did

:26:08. > :26:10.the trial collapse? They took about eight

:26:11. > :26:14.hours deliberating. They came down and

:26:15. > :26:16.found us not guilty. To be honest, I had so many tears

:26:17. > :26:25.that just burst out my eyes, It felt like the world

:26:26. > :26:31.was lifted off my shoulders. But it wasn't until after

:26:32. > :26:33.the trial that it got worse. It was the drinking,

:26:34. > :26:35.the sleepless nights, No one came forward and looked

:26:36. > :26:46.after you in that I went into the Army

:26:47. > :26:53.as a man and left broken. So, after 2008, when did you first

:26:54. > :27:00.hear that this was coming The first time I heard

:27:01. > :27:08.about it was from the press. They said, "how do you feel

:27:09. > :27:17.about being investigated?" I said, "I'm sorry, you've

:27:18. > :27:19.got the wrong number." They gave me a number to ring

:27:20. > :27:27.for the investigation team. I rang it up and he said, "yes,

:27:28. > :27:30.sorry, we are investigating it." I remember just sitting

:27:31. > :27:36.on the couch, shaking. When we were found not guilty,

:27:37. > :27:38.it was a massive weight But then to hear that they were

:27:39. > :27:43.reinvestigating me again, I went through all the emotions

:27:44. > :27:49.of sitting there, shaking. And that wasn't even the war,

:27:50. > :27:57.that is just what was done And I just sat there,

:27:58. > :28:06.thinking to myself... You're going to go through this,

:28:07. > :28:09.you're going to drag it all back up again,

:28:10. > :28:11.and you're going to leave me again, So when I started hearing

:28:12. > :28:19.about these things, I asked the minister

:28:20. > :28:21.in Parliament about whether you guys She said to me that everybody

:28:22. > :28:27.was getting looked after, Yeah, there was no

:28:28. > :28:35.one looking after us. Whether we were one of the first,

:28:36. > :28:38.I don't know, but there was no So why is it thought so important

:28:39. > :28:52.to get to the bottom Nicholas Mercer was

:28:53. > :28:55.the British Army's chief legal I spoke to him earlier and asked

:28:56. > :28:59.whether he saw evidence I was the first person to raise

:29:00. > :29:09.the alarm over abuses, having walked into an interrogation

:29:10. > :29:13.centre by accident, as it happened, I was going down to the prisoner of

:29:14. > :29:17.war camp to deal with another issue, and I came across prisoners

:29:18. > :29:19.being subjected to what are called So when people say these

:29:20. > :29:26.allegations are spurious, I think one of the main issues

:29:27. > :29:33.is that British soldiers have been investigated and then cleared,

:29:34. > :29:35.and find themselves, several years later,

:29:36. > :29:37.being rearrested and reinvestigated. I think in answer to that, one

:29:38. > :29:57.of the criticisms of the Baha Moussa trial was that the witnesses

:29:58. > :30:00.closed ranks and the judge expressed his frustration

:30:01. > :30:02.that he was never able to get up the truth

:30:03. > :30:04.because of this rank closing. So, Baha Moussa, we never

:30:05. > :30:06.got to the bottom of It would seem inequitable,

:30:07. > :30:10.indeed it would be wrong, if fresh evidence came to light not

:30:11. > :30:12.to reopen that investigation. It is the closing of ranks,

:30:13. > :30:15.in many cases, that has Baha Moussa, for those that don't

:30:16. > :30:21.know, was beaten to death There were dozens and dozens

:30:22. > :30:27.of injuries found on his body. I take into account the fact

:30:28. > :30:33.that you say apparently It does not get away from the fact

:30:34. > :30:39.that people who have been cleared, soldiers who have been cleared

:30:40. > :30:42.after a three or four year investigation, find themselves,

:30:43. > :30:47.a decade later, investigated for the same offences

:30:48. > :30:54.for which they have been cleared? Well, I hear what you say,

:30:55. > :30:57.but I go back to my original point. Some of these allegations

:30:58. > :31:01.are very serious. In the case of Baha Mousa,

:31:02. > :31:04.it is a murder investigation. In the case of Kareem Ali,

:31:05. > :31:07.who drowned in the Shatt Al Basra Canal, this

:31:08. > :31:14.is a manslaughter investigation. If evidence didn't come

:31:15. > :31:16.out or was suppressed, it would be inequitable not

:31:17. > :31:19.to reopen those cases. But we don't know that

:31:20. > :31:21.evidence didn't come Well, we do, because we know

:31:22. > :31:28.from the Baha Moussa trial, by way of example, that the judge

:31:29. > :31:30.expressed his frustration that he could not get

:31:31. > :31:35.the evidence from the soldiers. So, why does that make you think

:31:36. > :31:38.that evidence would be more Well, I think in time people might

:31:39. > :31:47.break, people might say something, further evidence might

:31:48. > :31:49.come to light. It's very hard to generalise because

:31:50. > :31:54.each case turns on its own facts. You would have to be quite heavily

:31:55. > :31:57.involved in each case to make All I can say is a case

:31:58. > :32:04.in which I have been involved, in which I followed closely,

:32:05. > :32:06.because I was a witness, that has been criticism

:32:07. > :32:08.from the judge. In those circumstances,

:32:09. > :32:19.it is entirely reasonable, indeed you would not

:32:20. > :32:20.want to be otherwise. I want to give you another example,

:32:21. > :32:23.a British soldier investigated over Last he was investigated again

:32:24. > :32:27.by the Iraq Historic They have since questioned

:32:28. > :32:29.his ex-girlfriend about whether he was racist or abusive,

:32:30. > :32:32.or was a drinker. They have questioned

:32:33. > :32:34.people who he never served That just doesn't seem

:32:35. > :32:42.logical or right. I think you're straying into very

:32:43. > :32:48.dangerous territory here. You are not a policeman,

:32:49. > :32:55.you are not an investigator. I was a military prosecutor

:32:56. > :32:57.for 20-odd years and the police make inquiries, there can be all sorts

:32:58. > :33:00.of evidential lines of inquiry It is very dangerous for the public

:33:01. > :33:04.now to be stepping in and telling They do this all the time,

:33:05. > :33:18.they have done it all their lives. Nicholas Mercer, the chief legal

:33:19. > :33:21.adviser for the British Army in Iraq in 2003.

:33:22. > :33:24.We can speak now to Johnny Mercer, the Conservative MP and former

:33:25. > :33:26.soldier who presented that film for us earlier and Carla Ferstman

:33:27. > :33:30.who is a director of the human rights charity Redress.

:33:31. > :33:35.Hello to both of you. First, let's put the point is that Nicholas

:33:36. > :33:38.Mercer made, a fresh evidence emerges or there is a chance to get

:33:39. > :33:44.to the bottom of a murder or manslaughter case, why would you not

:33:45. > :33:47.want to do that? Absolutely, I agree with that. It's really important to

:33:48. > :33:51.say that where there is evidence, clear evidence that something has

:33:52. > :33:54.broken the law, not uphold the standards we worked so hard to

:33:55. > :33:58.uphold operations, they should feel the full force of the law. But that

:33:59. > :34:02.evidence has not been forthcoming. The quality of this new evidence

:34:03. > :34:05.going on, the very concept of doing an operation and then going around

:34:06. > :34:08.in that country six or seven years later and saying, has anybody got

:34:09. > :34:13.any problems, maybe we can get you some money, that is a flawed

:34:14. > :34:17.process. Any evidence that comes out of that process is... I don't

:34:18. > :34:22.understand how it will hold up in court and neither do the judges. Do

:34:23. > :34:27.you accept that? I do think that we have to take as a starting point the

:34:28. > :34:32.seriousness of the allegations. Can you answer the question, is that

:34:33. > :34:39.flawed as a way of getting fresh evidence? To offer money? The

:34:40. > :34:43.criminal investigations, the team is not about money, it is about

:34:44. > :34:51.criminal investigations. I think it is really important to focus on the

:34:52. > :34:56.job of the IHAT investigators, finding out the truth about what

:34:57. > :34:59.happened, not about financial gain. With respect to the investigations

:35:00. > :35:03.themselves, it is very difficult to stop in the middle of them and say

:35:04. > :35:08.there is not any evidence that has come out, if an investigation is

:35:09. > :35:13.taken from beginning to end and there is no evidence which emerges

:35:14. > :35:15.after that investigation has been conclusively finished, then

:35:16. > :35:21.certainly, nothing should come out of it. That is where we are at. We

:35:22. > :35:27.are in the middle of ongoing investigations. We clearly disagree

:35:28. > :35:30.on this. I think once you have have that investigation, these people

:35:31. > :35:33.have been brought through trials and they are found not guilty, by a

:35:34. > :35:37.judge who knows what he's doing, assessing the quality of the

:35:38. > :35:40.evidence, I do not think the principle of them being able to

:35:41. > :35:46.throw mud for the rest of their lives in hope that some and Nicholas

:35:47. > :35:50.Mercer made the point, maybe someday we'll break, but we don't treat

:35:51. > :35:53.people like that. We present the evidence, they are guilty or not

:35:54. > :35:58.guilty. If they are not, you move on. People are misunderstanding the

:35:59. > :36:03.characteristics. If somebody invaded Plymouth and then a lawyer came six

:36:04. > :36:06.years later and said as anything happened you are not happy with, I

:36:07. > :36:15.will be at the front of the queue. It does not work like that. We are

:36:16. > :36:20.hanging people out to dry. Not a single prosecution. With any

:36:21. > :36:25.criminal investigation, domestic or otherwise, if new evidence comes to

:36:26. > :36:29.light, it is common practice to restart the investigation.

:36:30. > :36:31.Certainly, in some of the IHAT investigations, new evidence has

:36:32. > :36:35.come to light. It is a question about where they are in that

:36:36. > :36:40.investigation. Certainly, one would hope that those investigations can

:36:41. > :36:47.be concluded as soon as possible. Nobody wants this hanging over

:36:48. > :36:52.soldiers, if the evidence is not there. The job of the IHAT is to

:36:53. > :36:56.carry out an infective investigation and to determine one way or another

:36:57. > :37:04.whether these matters should go to trial or not. I respectfully

:37:05. > :37:07.suggest, this was established in 2010, it cost ?22 million, 270

:37:08. > :37:15.people working every day on this. At the evidence was there, it would

:37:16. > :37:17.probably have come out by now. 240 allegations of unlawful killing

:37:18. > :37:21.represents a complete breakdown of law and order in the British Army in

:37:22. > :37:26.Iraq. Do you really think that happened? It is for investigators to

:37:27. > :37:31.determine whether there is any credible evidence associated with

:37:32. > :37:37.that. We know that there has been torture, we know that Baha Mousa

:37:38. > :37:42.died after time in British custody, as a result of 93 injuries on his

:37:43. > :37:47.body. Those are not spurious allegations. They have been dealt

:37:48. > :37:53.with. It is important that we separate the truth from fiction and

:37:54. > :38:02.focus on the investigations which merit criminal prosecution. I agree

:38:03. > :38:06.with that. But this is not about that, it is about a process that has

:38:07. > :38:10.systematically destroyed soldier was Mark lives without a single

:38:11. > :38:23.prosecution. A single one. Baha Moussa, the whole of that,

:38:24. > :38:29.absolutely indefensible, but this is about judicial process, it is not

:38:30. > :38:38.difficult to do and it is not the way we treat people who go out to

:38:39. > :38:42.keep us safe. Let me read some comments from people watching around

:38:43. > :38:46.the country. An e-mail from Stewart, please excuse my anger, but as an

:38:47. > :38:50.ex-serviceman myself these are cowards who send our men into

:38:51. > :38:53.entirely impossible situations without a thought of the

:38:54. > :38:59.consequences. Maria, disgraceful we are putting brave soldiers through

:39:00. > :39:02.this. Terry says it is completely disgusting that soldiers find out

:39:03. > :39:08.about a serious investigation against them from the media. Nigel,

:39:09. > :39:15.as the founder of Uk Veterans One Voice we have been putting pressure

:39:16. > :39:19.on the Government to stop IHAT, to prosecute troops now is madness. Do

:39:20. > :39:25.you get any sense from the MOD or higher that what IHAT is doing is

:39:26. > :39:29.going to be wound up early, or will they be allowed to continue looking

:39:30. > :39:33.at the hundreds of cases they are looking at? I have run a campaign

:39:34. > :39:36.over the last two three weeks and we have seen an increase pressure and

:39:37. > :39:43.have seen statements from the Prime Minister. That is about future

:39:44. > :39:49.conflicts? You are right, the pressure is building. Hopefully will

:39:50. > :39:52.get into a stage where we are looking after these people. There is

:39:53. > :39:54.a fundamental problem in this country between the political

:39:55. > :39:59.masters of the military the military. Nothing crystallised at

:40:00. > :40:03.more than trying to apply the European human rights laws to the

:40:04. > :40:09.battlefield. I think we are in a really important time. How do we

:40:10. > :40:13.look after this Afghanistan and Iraq generation. How we do it now really

:40:14. > :40:17.matters. It will define the relationship with the military for

:40:18. > :40:20.the next 50 years. I want to see us getting that right. We are a proud

:40:21. > :40:24.military nation, we look after our people, not getting it right. The

:40:25. > :40:28.military covenant has not addressed that. We need to look at it again.

:40:29. > :40:33.It is not a choice, it is not a fiscal policy, something we do if we

:40:34. > :40:36.have got time, it is a duty to these people we have asked to look after

:40:37. > :40:40.us and fight wars that we often don't want to know about. The least

:40:41. > :40:46.we do when they come home is look after them. Thank you both. If you

:40:47. > :40:52.want to watch or share the full film you can find it on the website.

:40:53. > :40:54.We asked to speak to the Ministry of Defence,

:40:55. > :40:57.the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon and someone from the Iraq

:40:58. > :41:14.A spokesperson for the Iraq Historic Allegations Team told us:

:41:15. > :41:51.A Ministry of Defence spokesperson told us:

:41:52. > :41:56.Donald Trump has defended his lewd comments against women and suggested

:41:57. > :41:59.that Bill Clinton's behaviour was worse.

:42:00. > :42:01.You described kissing women without their consent,

:42:02. > :42:05.You brag that you have sexually assaulted women.

:42:06. > :42:10.I don't think you understood what was said.

:42:11. > :42:15.I apologised to my family, I apologised to the American people.

:42:16. > :42:49.He has said that the video doesn't represent who he is.

:42:50. > :42:52.But I think it is clear to anyone who heard it that it

:42:53. > :43:00.Since Donald Trump's lewd comments were made public,

:43:01. > :43:02.millions of women have been sharing their personal

:43:03. > :43:09.It all started when a Canadian author, Kelly Oxford,

:43:10. > :43:13.shared her own account of five different sexual assaults and asked

:43:14. > :43:19.others to talk about their own under the hashtag #notOK.

:43:20. > :43:22.We can hear from two women now who've been sexually assaulted

:43:23. > :43:24.on multiple occasions and shared their stories

:43:25. > :43:27.Amanda Junay, who lives in New Jersey.

:43:28. > :43:35.They've waived their right to anonymity to talk to us.

:43:36. > :43:41.Thank you very much for speaking to our British audience. Nicole, you

:43:42. > :43:45.tweeted about a number of sexual assaults. I know you are comfortable

:43:46. > :43:52.in talking to the audience a bit about them? Yes. The first assault I

:43:53. > :43:55.can remember, the most chilling thing about this hashtag and

:43:56. > :44:01.responding to it is that a lot of women, me included, had to really

:44:02. > :44:05.think about how many there were and list them out. There wasn't just one

:44:06. > :44:08.incident. There have been multiple over the course of my life. The

:44:09. > :44:13.first several took place when I was only about eight at the bus stop,

:44:14. > :44:20.where there was a boy who thought it was funny to chase me around, grab

:44:21. > :44:23.my breasts, my chest area, I mean, I was only eight, grabbed my crotch

:44:24. > :44:27.and laugh every time he would catch me, laugh with his friends. I never

:44:28. > :44:35.told anyone because I just assumed that people would think it was my

:44:36. > :44:40.fault, that I was gross or dirty and that is why he was doing it. That

:44:41. > :44:45.was the first of several for me. When I was 14, a friend, well, not a

:44:46. > :44:49.friend, a friend's boyfriend that I went to school with, offered to

:44:50. > :44:56.drive me home. He drove me down a dark road and attacked me, put my

:44:57. > :45:05.hand on his crotch and tries to kiss me. I managed to find -- send him

:45:06. > :45:12.off, I assumed people would blame me for it. There was a lot of shame and

:45:13. > :45:19.embarrassment attached to the incidents. Amanda, you have spoken

:45:20. > :45:23.about an incident that happened with a man in a cab and you have not

:45:24. > :45:36.spoken about it before? No, I have not. Do you want me to

:45:37. > :45:41.explain what happened? This happened four years ago. I was commuting home

:45:42. > :45:45.from a job in Manhattan and we had train trouble. It was at 11pm at

:45:46. > :45:49.night. I had no money for a cab and this older gentleman, he was

:45:50. > :45:55.probably 65. He said he was drunk and he said he would pay for my cab

:45:56. > :45:58.would I like to share a ride? Sure. Another passenger jumped in because

:45:59. > :46:04.he was going to the same train station so now you have the driver,

:46:05. > :46:07.a male passenger, the older gentleman passenger and myself and

:46:08. > :46:13.I'm in the back with the older man and for the ten tire 45 MinION taxi

:46:14. > :46:19.drive this man just, his greedy hands are going all over me and I'm

:46:20. > :46:23.very vocal about stop touching me. I'm engaged. Do you have a wife? Do

:46:24. > :46:29.you have children? And he's telling me about his daughters and his wife

:46:30. > :46:33.while he's grabbing me and touching me, the passenger and the driver

:46:34. > :46:38.aren't doing anything about this. Nothing.

:46:39. > :46:42.They just let it go on for 45 MinIONs and when I get to my car I

:46:43. > :46:47.just exit the taxi and get to my car. I got home and I didn't even

:46:48. > :46:50.tell my fiancee it happened until yesterday morning and he was

:46:51. > :46:59.shocked. I'm not surprised. Talking about it now, what difference has

:47:00. > :47:05.that made to you? You see, I had just finished graduate school and I

:47:06. > :47:09.was getting my degree in creative writing nonfiction and I was working

:47:10. > :47:13.on a memoir on me being raped and the sexual assault that I lived

:47:14. > :47:18.through and just giving women a voice to speak about this because

:47:19. > :47:24.there is so much shame attached and there shouldn't be and our culture

:47:25. > :47:27.exactly how Donald Trump said it, that this is locker-room banter.

:47:28. > :47:33.That's what our culture says it is. Like we have to feel shame because

:47:34. > :47:42.men excuse this behaviour every single day. OK. Nicole, let me ask

:47:43. > :47:47.you what you made of the explanation slash justification of Donald Trump

:47:48. > :47:51.saying, "Look, it is just locker-room banter." There is a rape

:47:52. > :47:57.culture throughout the world. I think that video is a perfect

:47:58. > :48:03.example of it and not just Trump's disgusting vile talk, but also, you

:48:04. > :48:07.know, giggling and laughing in response to the gross things that

:48:08. > :48:11.Trump was saying about women and the things he does to women routinely

:48:12. > :48:17.because he's rich and he is a man with power. And I think that the

:48:18. > :48:20.silence is one of the thing that perpetuates the rape culture and I

:48:21. > :48:26.understand why so many victims don't say anything. I mean, I didn't say

:48:27. > :48:30.anything for a really long time and because there is so much shame

:48:31. > :48:34.attached to it, but silence is one of the things that perpetuates this

:48:35. > :48:40.and allows it to continue and the more women who speak out about it,

:48:41. > :48:44.the more men speak out about it, hopefully we can shine a light into

:48:45. > :48:48.that dark corner and go a long way towards eliminating that. Friends of

:48:49. > :48:52.mine have contacted me since I posted about this and four of them

:48:53. > :48:56.have girls and they say, "We need to talk to our girls." You need to talk

:48:57. > :49:00.to your boys too. It is not just up to women to avoid being victims of

:49:01. > :49:04.sexual assault, it is up to men to not be perpetrators of sexual

:49:05. > :49:09.assault. I'm really grateful that you have

:49:10. > :49:13.spoken to our audience. Thank you very much for coming on the

:49:14. > :49:18.programme. I really appreciate it. People who post derogatory hashtags

:49:19. > :49:20.or humiliating photoshopped images could be prosecuted under new legal

:49:21. > :49:23.guidance which aims to tackle practises known as doxxing,

:49:24. > :49:41."dog-piling" and "virtual mobbing": There are going to be new guidelines

:49:42. > :49:44.about what you can or can't It is an attempt to clampdown

:49:45. > :49:47.further on the offensive and potentially illegal things that

:49:48. > :49:50.people do on social media to stop So what behaviour

:49:51. > :50:03.are we talking about? That's when users publish private

:50:04. > :50:06.information about others For example, if someone posts

:50:07. > :50:09.something that you don't like and you find out their home

:50:10. > :50:12.address and publish it online, that could now

:50:13. > :50:14.lead to a prosecution. It is when you see a post you don't

:50:15. > :50:20.like and then encourage others to send that user abuse or encourage

:50:21. > :50:22.others to harass them. If you use an offensive hashtag

:50:23. > :50:32.or you repost a message where someone else has used

:50:33. > :50:34.an offensive hashtag that There will be new guidelines to look

:50:35. > :50:39.at baiting or flaming. That's when you send abuse it

:50:40. > :50:41.other people online. The guide will be widened

:50:42. > :50:44.so if you post fake pictures of your victim, you could also

:50:45. > :50:46.face the law. If there is someone you don't

:50:47. > :50:49.like and you cut and paste their head on to a porn image

:50:50. > :50:51.and share it, that And finally, there will be more

:50:52. > :50:59.guidance on sectioning. And finally, there will be more

:51:00. > :51:01.guidance on sexting. That's when you send sexually

:51:02. > :51:04.explicit messages to someone else. The now guidelines will focus

:51:05. > :51:06.on sectioning between people If people say they're

:51:07. > :51:09.in a relationship and do it and they're under 18,

:51:10. > :51:12.that may now be OK. However, if one person is older

:51:13. > :51:21.when secxting occurs, that may now be considered grooming

:51:22. > :51:33.and sexually eploitative. They say the rules are to clamp down

:51:34. > :51:37.on abuse. If you wouldn't do it or say it in real life, you probably

:51:38. > :51:44.shouldn't do it or say it on the internet.

:51:45. > :51:50.Alison Saunders explained what online trolls need to do, if they

:51:51. > :51:54.won't z don't want to be prosecuted? Stop committing offences online.

:51:55. > :52:00.People may not think they are committing offences online, but they

:52:01. > :52:04.are so. For example, harassing somebody online, doing, being

:52:05. > :52:10.abusive and ainsulting online, you can't do, as long as it is grossly

:52:11. > :52:14.offensive. Coercive controlling behaviour online, anything that is

:52:15. > :52:19.an offence, you can't do it online. I think sometimes people think it is

:52:20. > :52:23.a bit of anonymous space and somehow it is a free space, but it is not.

:52:24. > :52:27.The guidelines make it very clear that online offending will be

:52:28. > :52:29.prosecuted if we have the evidence and it is in the public interest to

:52:30. > :52:34.do so. I'm not sure it is that clear, you

:52:35. > :52:40.know. Are you allowed to be generally abusive or offensive in

:52:41. > :52:43.your tweets for example? If you have an opinion about an X Factor

:52:44. > :52:48.contestant or a particular politician? Are you allowed to tweet

:52:49. > :52:53.those kind of offensive comments about an individual? Yes, I mean,

:52:54. > :52:56.we're not about stifling free speech and it is very important that people

:52:57. > :53:01.are allowed to express their opinions. If you commit an offence

:53:02. > :53:04.because you're harassing someone that's very different. If you send

:53:05. > :53:08.that tweet to that individual for example, that might be considered as

:53:09. > :53:15.offence? We would have to really consider carefully what it was. So

:53:16. > :53:20.just saying, "I don't like you." Or being offensive, "You can't sing."

:53:21. > :53:25.Isn't going to be an offence. If you're grossly offensive, so if it

:53:26. > :53:28.is a high level, if you're grossly offensive we maybe able to prosecute

:53:29. > :53:32.you under the malicious communications Act. You can't be

:53:33. > :53:38.mean, you know, be mean or be nasty is fine in the same way as being

:53:39. > :53:42.mean and nasty in off line is, but it is being grossly offensive or if

:53:43. > :53:48.it gets into a harassment type situation.

:53:49. > :53:53.What about inciting people online to get in touch with someone who sent

:53:54. > :54:01.you an offensive tweet? Well, if the tweet is grossly offensive and he

:54:02. > :54:09.encourage people to retweet it then you maybe guilty of on offence of

:54:10. > :54:12.encouraging or assisting, if want to publish an indecent photograph or

:54:13. > :54:16.something like that and you encourage others to do so that may

:54:17. > :54:22.well be an offence of encouraging and assisting. If the same way if

:54:23. > :54:25.you were off line and you encouraged people to commit burglary or

:54:26. > :54:29.assault, you would be guilty of an offence. There are a number of

:54:30. > :54:34.female politicians, a number of high-profile people in the media,

:54:35. > :54:38.who quote tweet or republish an offensive tweet they've received to

:54:39. > :54:42.their followers to let them know the kind of abuse they're getting

:54:43. > :54:45.online? I think that's where the context comes in and it is very

:54:46. > :54:50.important that we consider the context and what it is about. So

:54:51. > :54:57.Looking at why are people actually asking others to retweet or to adopt

:54:58. > :54:59.an offensive hashtag for example and that's the important thing that the

:55:00. > :55:03.guidance makes clear which is looking at the context of the

:55:04. > :55:07.offending and looking perhaps if you're looking at indecent images,

:55:08. > :55:12.looking at the age of the offenders of the so if you're under 18, your

:55:13. > :55:16.children and you're of a similar age we would look at things very

:55:17. > :55:24.differently to an adult doing that to a child. I want to ask you about

:55:25. > :55:31.what might be considered an offence when it comes to offensive hashtags.

:55:32. > :55:36.Hashtag if my daughter brings home a black man. Would that be something

:55:37. > :55:41.that you would consider prosecuting? I think that maybe. Again, it

:55:42. > :55:44.depends very much. Just of itself you wouldn't necessarily think that

:55:45. > :55:51.is, but some people, you know, again if it is directed at an individual,

:55:52. > :55:57.it maybe that that's a hate crime. So inciting sort of, looking at

:55:58. > :56:00.whether or not it is an aggravated offence because of the racial

:56:01. > :56:05.element to it, but again, it is very much looking at, we would need to

:56:06. > :56:09.know far more about the context of the offending and who it has gone to

:56:10. > :56:13.and how widely it has gone? And that's the difficulty with the

:56:14. > :56:17.internet, it goes out so quickly and to so many more people. Exactly. So

:56:18. > :56:21.would you be looking at prosecuting thousands of people or the

:56:22. > :56:26.originator of the hashtag? It would be very much looking at the major

:56:27. > :56:30.harm which is around the originator of the hashtag and the person who

:56:31. > :56:33.encouraged and assisted and obviously it would be a matter for

:56:34. > :56:37.the police to investigate, but that's where the harm will be as

:56:38. > :56:40.opposed to all those who retweet, but again, it would depend on the

:56:41. > :56:43.circumstances. Alison Saunders who is the Director

:56:44. > :56:46.of Public Prosecutions. Let's talk now to Kevin Healey

:56:47. > :56:49.who has who has suffered at the hands of online

:56:50. > :56:51.abusers for five years around autism awareness,

:56:52. > :57:01.and not one of the perpetrators has What do you think? On paper it looks

:57:02. > :57:04.good. I have had five years of abuse and not one troll has been

:57:05. > :57:09.prosecuted or jailed. Even though you made complaints? Even though I

:57:10. > :57:13.made complaints, made complaints to Twitter and made complaints to the

:57:14. > :57:18.police, CID, and not even one troll has been jailed. I just find it

:57:19. > :57:21.unbelievable really. OK, I wonder what else the

:57:22. > :57:29.authorities, people like Alison Saunders could do then? Well, I

:57:30. > :57:32.don't know, you know, around the legislation around social media it

:57:33. > :57:38.is quite big and it is quite vast. Also, you know, with the laws in the

:57:39. > :57:42.UK, if somebody is trolling you from outside, my last batch of trolls

:57:43. > :57:46.were from the US, the police said, "Kevin, we can't do anything because

:57:47. > :57:50.the trolls reside in the UK." Not only does the legislation need to

:57:51. > :57:53.change in the UK, it needs to change internationally. There needs to be

:57:54. > :57:59.international laws around social media. OK.

:58:00. > :58:04.Very briefly, Kevin, the impact on you of this kind of online abuse? It

:58:05. > :58:10.has been a nightmare. It has been horrific. It affected me. It has

:58:11. > :58:15.just been horrendous. And you know, it doesn't go away with you, it

:58:16. > :58:19.stays with you 24/#, there is no escape interest it. Kevin, thank you

:58:20. > :58:25.for coming on the programme. Thank you. Thank you for your company

:58:26. > :58:31.today. We're back tomorrow at 9am. See you then. Have a good day.