06/12/2016

:00:00. > :00:10.I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

:00:11. > :00:12.This morning, more damning allegations over abuse in football,

:00:13. > :00:15.including claims of more cover-ups and that people still

:00:16. > :00:22.involved in the game have been involved in abuse.

:00:23. > :00:29.I have not seen the absolute proof of it, but victims have come forward

:00:30. > :00:35.to us indicating that such clauses have been used elsewhere. How many

:00:36. > :00:41.clubs? I cannot the specific, but I know of several. Who have signed

:00:42. > :00:43.similar... ? Victims who say they have been the subject of similar

:00:44. > :00:45.confidentiality provisions. We'll get reaction to that from one

:00:46. > :00:48.man who says he was abused Former Southampton youth player

:00:49. > :00:52.and ex-professional Billy Seymour will be talking to us

:00:53. > :00:55.in his first live interview. Also on the programme, we'll talk

:00:56. > :00:58.to one of the Conservative MPs who say they'll vote

:00:59. > :01:01.against Theresa May in a bid to force the Government

:01:02. > :01:03.to reveal its plans for leaving And, this man has been named

:01:04. > :01:09.as a non-violent extremist for holding views like this,

:01:10. > :01:22.which the Government says Those things which people engage in,

:01:23. > :01:26.those actions which people do that are against some people's religious

:01:27. > :01:31.views, whilst they have the right legally to do those things, we still

:01:32. > :01:33.have a right to at least teach our children and our communities that

:01:34. > :01:36.this is a sin. But do such views make

:01:37. > :01:38.someone extremist? We'll meet the man

:01:39. > :01:50.at the centre of it. Hello, welcome to the programme,

:01:51. > :01:52.we're live until 11am. At around 10:30am we'll cross live

:01:53. > :01:55.to the Supreme Court in London, where arguments are continuing

:01:56. > :01:58.to take place over whether the Government or MPs in Parliament

:01:59. > :02:01.should have the final say Do get in touch on all the stories

:02:02. > :02:06.we're talking about this morning. If you text, you will be charged

:02:07. > :02:20.at the standard network rate. The FA has just published its full

:02:21. > :02:24.terms of reference for its review into football abuse. It has also

:02:25. > :02:28.announced it has changed the person leading the review, it says it had

:02:29. > :02:31.originally intended that the QC would lead it, but in the light of

:02:32. > :02:38.the increased scope since it was announced, and with respect to her,

:02:39. > :02:40.other -- the decision was taken to appoint another QC instead. More to

:02:41. > :02:43.come in a couple of minutes. A study suggests that the regular

:02:44. > :02:46.use of caesarean sections is having Scientists at the University

:02:47. > :02:50.of Vienna say women with a narrow pelvis, who would historically have

:02:51. > :02:53.died during childbirth, are now surviving, to pass

:02:54. > :02:56.on the genes of their skeletal A little earlier I spoke

:02:57. > :03:09.to our reporter Jane-Frances Academics have looked at data from

:03:10. > :03:13.the World Health Organisation and other large studies and they

:03:14. > :03:21.estimate looking at the stickers that 30 women in 1000 in the 1950s

:03:22. > :03:27.and 60s had a Caesarean section because of a narrow birth canal.

:03:28. > :03:34.This has gone up to 36 in 1000 now. This is because women historically

:03:35. > :03:37.would have died in childbirth, but they are passing on the

:03:38. > :03:42.characteristic to their daughter, and those daughters are then passing

:03:43. > :03:48.it on to their daughters. Passing on the narrow pelvis? Yes. They are

:03:49. > :03:57.also saying that babies are getting bigger, healthier but they have

:03:58. > :04:03.bigger heads. They say it is not going to... Sorry, can I do it

:04:04. > :04:10.again? I am just tired. We will go from the top. Tell us what the

:04:11. > :04:13.researchers are saying. Academics have looked at data from the World

:04:14. > :04:21.Health Organisation and other large birth surveys. They have estimated,

:04:22. > :04:25.looking at these figures, that during the 1950s and 60s 30 women in

:04:26. > :04:31.1000 had a Caesarean section because of the narrow birth canal, because

:04:32. > :04:37.of a narrow pelvis, and they say now that 36 in 1000... Historically,

:04:38. > :04:40.these women would have died in childbirth, but they are passing on

:04:41. > :04:44.this characteristic to their daughter, and it has been passed on

:04:45. > :04:50.through the generations. The numbers are still tiny, but now we know that

:04:51. > :04:54.Caesarean sections are having an impact on evolution, might that

:04:55. > :04:59.impact on the number of Caesarean sections in the future? They say it

:05:00. > :05:03.will continue to go up, but it will be slow and slight. It is a small

:05:04. > :05:11.number of women, and babies' heads cannot grow indefinitely. Yes, there

:05:12. > :05:16.will be an increase, but there are many reasons why women have

:05:17. > :05:22.Caesarean sections, so it will have some impact, but not a large impact.

:05:23. > :05:28.You got an insight into what it is like having worked an overnight

:05:29. > :05:30.shift and stained later in order to do that report for us, so thank you

:05:31. > :05:31.to Jane. Annita is in the BBC

:05:32. > :05:33.Newsroom with a summary Lawyers from the Offside Trust,

:05:34. > :05:37.launched yesterday to support football players who are victims

:05:38. > :05:40.of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse

:05:41. > :05:44.cover-ups in football. They claim that "a number of clubs"

:05:45. > :05:47.have used gagging orders on players And they say big football figures

:05:48. > :05:52.still in the game are named In what's being called the biggest

:05:53. > :05:59.shakeup of the railways in 20 years, the Government is to make

:06:00. > :06:02.Network Rail share control of track maintenance in England with private

:06:03. > :06:06.train-operating companies. The Transport Secretary Chris

:06:07. > :06:09.Grayling says Network Rail and the train operators should be

:06:10. > :06:12.able to work together With fares going up again

:06:13. > :06:20.and punctuality well below target, passengers are often unhappy

:06:21. > :06:23.with their train service. There's only one train every hour

:06:24. > :06:28.from here to Manchester. My train in the morning is always

:06:29. > :06:32.late but it is not late by too much. Now the Government says it has

:06:33. > :06:35.a plan to cut delays. At the moment, Network Rail runs

:06:36. > :06:38.the track and private The problem is, when things need

:06:39. > :06:43.repairing, both sides often disagree about who is responsible and how

:06:44. > :06:48.to fix it, which creates delays. Now the Government says it wants

:06:49. > :06:50.Network Rail and the train firms to form local teams,

:06:51. > :06:53.working together, not At the moment we've got a situation

:06:54. > :06:57.where we've got different companies, often talking different languages,

:06:58. > :07:00.doing different things, not speaking to each other properly,

:07:01. > :07:03.throwing contracts around It's about evolving into a teamwork

:07:04. > :07:10.structure into the frontline of our railways so that the train

:07:11. > :07:14.operators, the infrastructure teams, work hand in glove to deliver

:07:15. > :07:18.a better outcome for passengers. In a unique experiment,

:07:19. > :07:21.the Government also wants a private company, not Network Rail,

:07:22. > :07:24.to control everything on a proposed new line

:07:25. > :07:27.between Oxford and Cambridge. If it is successful,

:07:28. > :07:30.ministers have not ruled out trying something similar on other lines,

:07:31. > :07:33.although it would be much harder Unions say it is an attempt

:07:34. > :07:39.to privatise track repairs and argue A key part of the Government's

:07:40. > :07:48.counter-terrorism strategy, Prevent, is challenged in the High Court

:07:49. > :07:51.for the first time this week. The Home Office says

:07:52. > :07:54.the strategy plays a key role in the fight against terrorism,

:07:55. > :07:58.but a British Muslim activist, who was named as a non-violent

:07:59. > :08:01.extremist by the Government, will argue that the strategy

:08:02. > :08:06.breaches his right to free speech. Some of the world's biggest tech

:08:07. > :08:08.companies are teaming up to prevent extremist material

:08:09. > :08:11.being shared online. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube

:08:12. > :08:15.and Microsoft will share details of images and videos they remove

:08:16. > :08:18.from their own sites to stop Lawyers representing the team

:08:19. > :08:24.leading the legal fight against the Prime Minister's Brexit

:08:25. > :08:27.strategy will begin The landmark Supreme Court hearing

:08:28. > :08:32.begins hearing a second day Yesterday, Government lawyers said

:08:33. > :08:37.the ministers had the power The High Court ruled

:08:38. > :08:42.against the Government in November and said Parliament should

:08:43. > :08:55.be consulted first. You can get hourly updates on the

:08:56. > :08:59.BBC News channel all morning and full coverage live this afternoon of

:09:00. > :09:04.the arguments being put forward by lawyers for those who brought the

:09:05. > :09:05.case. You can also catch all of the proceedings live online, with

:09:06. > :09:11.rolling text updates and analysis. Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:09:12. > :09:13.has been shortlisted by the US magazine Time

:09:14. > :09:16.for its Person Of The Year award. The magazine says his role

:09:17. > :09:19.in helping bring about Brexit started what it calls "a global

:09:20. > :09:22.populist wave against Others on the shortlist of people

:09:23. > :09:28.deemed to have most influenced the news in 2016 include

:09:29. > :09:31.Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Turkey's President

:09:32. > :09:38.Erdogan and Beyonce. The Brazilian football club

:09:39. > :09:40.Chapecoense, which lost 19 of its players in last week's plane

:09:41. > :09:43.crash in Colombia, has been awarded the Copa Sudamericana title

:09:44. > :09:46.by the governing body The team was on its way to take part

:09:47. > :09:51.in the final of the competition when the plane they were travelling

:09:52. > :09:54.on crashed near That's a summary of

:09:55. > :10:09.the latest BBC News. A couple of comments on the

:10:10. > :10:15.Government's strategy to deal radical as people. She says, Prevent

:10:16. > :10:20.does more harm than good and build a relationship of distrust in targeted

:10:21. > :10:27.communities. It is used as a judgment tool by those who are not

:10:28. > :10:31.experienced enough to judge. It has shown it does not work and that

:10:32. > :10:35.pushes them deeper into isolation and extremist thoughts. Anthony

:10:36. > :10:42.says, there is a fine line between free speech and extremism. He has

:10:43. > :10:51.been seen as supporting an organisation which could be

:10:52. > :10:53.interpreted as hate speech. Do get in touch with us

:10:54. > :10:56.throughout the morning. If you text, you will be charged

:10:57. > :11:00.at the standard network rate. Let's get some sport

:11:01. > :11:01.now with John Watson. John, it seems that Alastair Cook

:11:02. > :11:04.will continue as England captain at least until the next

:11:05. > :11:14.Ashes series? He surprised people when he said he

:11:15. > :11:19.was not sure if he would continue. He said it could be two months or

:11:20. > :11:27.two years. That shocked some people in the England Test cricket camp,

:11:28. > :11:31.they were surprised by his comment. But Trevor Bayliss, the head coach,

:11:32. > :11:35.has qualified the comments, he said they have been taken out of

:11:36. > :11:38.proportion, and he expects Alastair Cook to be in the role for the next

:11:39. > :11:45.Ashes Series in Australia next winter. Alastair Cook is hugely

:11:46. > :11:49.experienced, the most capped test player Tom Moore Test cricket runs

:11:50. > :11:53.than anybody else. When he steps down, there is no suggestion that he

:11:54. > :11:56.will not continue to open the batting, but Trevor Bayliss says he

:11:57. > :11:58.is up for the fight and he expects him to be in the role as captain for

:11:59. > :12:00.the Ashes Series. Manchester City and Chelsea have

:12:01. > :12:03.been charged by the FA for failing to control their players

:12:04. > :12:12.at the weekend? Some ugly scenes at the end of the

:12:13. > :12:18.match, Chelsea won 3-1, it was sparked by a tackle by Sergio Aguero

:12:19. > :12:22.on Dafydd Louise, he has been banned for four matches, but there were

:12:23. > :12:27.ugly scenes, a melee, the player is fronting up to each other, the worst

:12:28. > :12:29.moment was when Cesc Fabregas was bottled round the neck by

:12:30. > :12:35.Fernandinho, who has been banned for three matches. It was ugly. Both

:12:36. > :12:41.teams have been charged, they have until 6pm on Thursday to respond.

:12:42. > :12:42.Ugly scenes at the end of that match, as seems likely to face the

:12:43. > :12:43.consequences. And finally, John, the most

:12:44. > :12:53.tweeted-about sporting moments Remember when England were element

:12:54. > :12:59.edited by Iceland in the year rose? Everybody was talking about it. It

:13:00. > :13:09.was the most tweeted moment on social media, sporting moment.

:13:10. > :13:14.128,000 tweets per minute, 21,000 more than when Leicester City won

:13:15. > :13:18.the title. The bad news proving the most interesting talking point on

:13:19. > :13:21.social media, as opposed to what was a fantastic moment when Leicester

:13:22. > :13:24.City won the title. It got people talking. Great news for Iceland

:13:25. > :13:26.fans. This morning, claims of more

:13:27. > :13:28.cover-ups in football over the sex-abuse scandal which has

:13:29. > :13:31.dominated the news since this programme first interviewed

:13:32. > :13:34.Andy Woodward about his abuse. Lawyers for a support group

:13:35. > :13:36.called the Offside Trust, set up by the four players who spoke

:13:37. > :13:39.with such dignity here on our sofa two weeks ago,

:13:40. > :13:42.say gagging orders on players sexually abused by coaches have been

:13:43. > :13:48.used by "a number" of clubs. They also claim that big football

:13:49. > :13:51.names still working in the game have been named by alleged

:13:52. > :13:54.victims as abusers. Our sports news correspondent

:13:55. > :14:09.Richard Conway is here. The lawyer representing the trust

:14:10. > :14:12.that announced itself to the world yesterday, started by Andy Woodward

:14:13. > :14:17.and some of the other players who have been telling their stories of

:14:18. > :14:21.abuse over the past few weeks, he is concerned because he feels that

:14:22. > :14:24.people involved in abuse could still be working within football.

:14:25. > :14:25.We've had complaints which are relatively recent.

:14:26. > :14:28.We've had an awful lot of complaints which are historical.

:14:29. > :14:32.My overview was that it was probably worse in the old days,

:14:33. > :14:37.So there could still be people within football and other sports

:14:38. > :14:40.perhaps who are either complicit or actually engaging

:14:41. > :14:44.Yes, I would stress that we are not making any specific allegations

:14:45. > :14:51.What we're calling for is an independent investigation.

:14:52. > :14:57.Is it a series of complaints that is certainly enough to give

:14:58. > :15:01.a reasonable suspicion to justify a thorough and independent

:15:02. > :15:16.The other issue is the confidential at the agreements, Chelsea put one

:15:17. > :15:20.in place against a former player Tom and he is concerned about that, the

:15:21. > :15:26.FA have said any club trying to silence victims would be morally

:15:27. > :15:27.repugnant, but he is concerned that a number of clubs have got these

:15:28. > :15:30.agreements in place. Well, first of all, I have not acted

:15:31. > :15:33.in the Chelsea case so I can't I think it's commonly the case that

:15:34. > :15:37.confidentiality provisions are used in things like employment disputes,

:15:38. > :15:39.for example civil But when you've got something

:15:40. > :15:47.as fundamental and important as abuse of children,

:15:48. > :15:48.it seems entirely inappropriate for such clauses to be used

:15:49. > :15:52.when the priority should be on other And the cancer being cut out

:15:53. > :16:01.of the organisation. To be fair to Chelsea,

:16:02. > :16:03.I thought their statement And indeed they have had the wisdom

:16:04. > :16:06.to admits themselves that they believe the use

:16:07. > :16:08.of the clause was inappropriate. I've not seen the absolute proof

:16:09. > :16:18.of it at this stage, but certainly victims have come

:16:19. > :16:20.forward to us indicating that such How many clubs, from

:16:21. > :16:25.what you've been told? I can't be specific at this stage,

:16:26. > :16:28.but I know of several. Who have signed similar

:16:29. > :16:31.confidential...? Victims who've come forward who say

:16:32. > :16:34.that they have been the subject of But I want to stress that I'm

:16:35. > :16:41.not making any specific I can only tell you what victims

:16:42. > :16:48.have been told, yeah. But you wouldn't accept that,

:16:49. > :16:51.if you were working for a client who claims to have

:16:52. > :16:53.been sexually abused? You would never advise them

:16:54. > :17:07.to accept a gagging order like that? There are over 20 police forces

:17:08. > :17:15.looking into allegations and claims which have been made. We are talking

:17:16. > :17:19.about 55 clubs being involved at all levels, and over 350 survivors of

:17:20. > :17:24.child abuse reported their claims to the authorities. Those are figures

:17:25. > :17:30.that are days out. Days old. We are awaiting updates. We don't know the

:17:31. > :17:34.true scale of it. The FA published their terms of reference for their

:17:35. > :17:38.big review. Yes, this is an internal review which will look at what the

:17:39. > :17:42.FA knew and when. The terms of reference we have been waiting for.

:17:43. > :17:46.They have been published. They go into depth to consider what lessons

:17:47. > :17:52.wb learnt, what they knew at the time and they say they will review

:17:53. > :17:55.the 70s, the 80s and the 90s up to 2005 and the a QC, she was

:17:56. > :18:00.originally supposed to be leading this inquiry for them, but she has

:18:01. > :18:04.been replaced by the FA because they say there has been a widening of

:18:05. > :18:07.this investigation, but the FA say they want to look and consider any

:18:08. > :18:12.failings at the time and in particular, whether it failed to act

:18:13. > :18:16.appropriately and if anyone raised child sexual abuse to them, and what

:18:17. > :18:20.came to light at the time? That review will be on going now and the

:18:21. > :18:24.terms of reference could still change, they say, if they feel it

:18:25. > :18:28.necessary. Crucially, they say they are committed to full disclosure of

:18:29. > :18:34.the review's findings, not quite a we will publish, but it is near a

:18:35. > :18:38.publication than a few weeks ago? Greg Clarke told us a few weeks ago

:18:39. > :18:40.that he was concerned about protecting the anonymity and the

:18:41. > :18:46.rights of survivors of child abuse, but there is a commitment to get as

:18:47. > :18:51.much out as they can. Harry Redknapp criticised the FA. Yes, the former

:18:52. > :18:56.manager of Southampton. The BBC named Bob Higgins the former

:18:57. > :18:59.Southampton youth coach as someone, six players have come forward to

:19:00. > :19:03.make allegations against him. Harry Redknapp said he knew Bob Higgins

:19:04. > :19:06.and he was aware of rumours around him and didn't know of any

:19:07. > :19:10.wrongdoing because this was after Bob Higgins left the club, but he

:19:11. > :19:13.believes the FA could have done more to stop Bob Higgins working within

:19:14. > :19:16.the game despite warning letters being sent out by local authorities,

:19:17. > :19:29.but police and by the Football League.

:19:30. > :19:31.For a long time he was probably the leading

:19:32. > :19:38.youth development guy in the

:19:39. > :19:43.country when he worked at Southampton, he signed the likes

:19:44. > :19:45.of Shearer and the Wallace brothers and lots of outstanding England

:19:46. > :19:47.footballers, but then obviously the rumours

:19:48. > :19:48.were going on even at that

:19:49. > :19:50.time and then it was a programme I watched

:19:51. > :19:52.where one of the lads who

:19:53. > :19:54.played at Southampton, the fantastic young guy, he came out.

:19:55. > :19:56.This young guy had spoke about Bob Higgins and

:19:57. > :20:00.the type of stuff he was doing with kids at Southampton and I thought

:20:01. > :20:03.that would be the end of him, but then suddenly I see his name pop

:20:04. > :20:08.he has still been involved in football since that day, I thought

:20:09. > :20:09.that would have been the finish of him.

:20:10. > :20:13.Beyond that television programme, was there anything else you as

:20:14. > :20:15.someone operating in the region knew about him or did you hear rumours,

:20:16. > :20:17.but without much substance? There was always rumours going around

:20:18. > :20:20.about him, I think, certainly at that time and after that time, there

:20:21. > :20:22.was always talk. When people now say, I mean, and Southampton,

:20:23. > :20:29.obviously, he left there, they got rid of him, but to pop up in

:20:30. > :20:33.football, I heard people say, "I'm surprised." They must have seen that

:20:34. > :20:35.programme. Anyone associated with Southampton would have seen that

:20:36. > :20:39.programme and I thought that would have been the finish of him in

:20:40. > :20:44.football, but he has been working. Was there a letter in 1977 from

:20:45. > :20:51.police and social services saying, "That he posed a risk to children?

:20:52. > :20:55.If I got a letter as a manager of a football club and someone gave me a

:20:56. > :20:59.letter saying he was a risk to children, I certainly wouldn't

:21:00. > :21:01.behaving him anywhere near a football club or anything I would

:21:02. > :21:04.have been associated with, he wouldn't have been near it.

:21:05. > :21:09.Southampton is a great football club and it is run by fantastic people

:21:10. > :21:13.there now. They had a great manager. If he suspected anything, I'm sure

:21:14. > :21:20.he would have been the first one to have, he would have put his boot, he

:21:21. > :21:25.would have booted him out. There were strong characters there. If

:21:26. > :21:28.they had real suspicions I'm sure he would have been gone long before,

:21:29. > :21:32.but until you can prove something or there is a bit of evidence, it is

:21:33. > :21:35.difficult, I think the FA could have done a bit more to monitor him and

:21:36. > :21:46.make sure that he wasn't allowed back into football.

:21:47. > :21:53.The BBC attempted to put the allegations to Bob Higgins on

:21:54. > :21:58.numerous occasions, but we haven't had a response from him. For

:21:59. > :22:04.response from Southampton. A letter was sent in 1989 from the then

:22:05. > :22:07.secretary David Dent warning clubs about Bob Higgins saying that if he

:22:08. > :22:10.tried to get in contact with the clubs, he was at the time starting

:22:11. > :22:14.an academy, that they wanted to know. We don't know the nature of

:22:15. > :22:17.the risk that the Football League were aware of or what they were

:22:18. > :22:20.trying to say, the letter was certainly there and we know about

:22:21. > :22:22.future warnings too. Thank you very much, Richard Conway.

:22:23. > :22:27.He is our sports news correspondent. In 1991 Bob Higgins was charged

:22:28. > :22:30.with six counts of indecent assault against young boys

:22:31. > :22:32.he had been coaching. But he was acquitted

:22:33. > :22:34.on the direction of the judge when the prosecution

:22:35. > :22:38.offered no evidence. He later set up his own school

:22:39. > :22:41.of excellence, called The BBC has repeatedly tried to put

:22:42. > :22:48.those allegations of abuse to Bob Higgins but have not been

:22:49. > :22:51.able to reach him. We can speak now to Billy Seymour,

:22:52. > :22:53.a former Southampton youth player who went on to play for Coventry

:22:54. > :22:56.and Millwall, who says he was groomed and abused

:22:57. > :22:59.by Bob Higgins between the ages He's waived his right

:23:00. > :23:10.to anonymity to speak to us We are going to talk about sexual

:23:11. > :23:14.abuse. If you have got young children around you might not want

:23:15. > :23:22.them to listen in. Thank you very much, Billy. I want to ask you about

:23:23. > :23:24.first of all the claims from the lawyer representing the Off-side

:23:25. > :23:29.Trust who believes that senior figures still working in the game,

:23:30. > :23:41.who have been named as abusers, what do you think about that? Well,

:23:42. > :23:45.astonished really that this can be still happening, you know, I'm just

:23:46. > :23:51.astonished how this could be still going on really. What about claims

:23:52. > :23:56.that other clubs, aside from Chelsea, have paid money so that

:23:57. > :24:05.alleged victims keep quiet? That's, it is sickening really. As

:24:06. > :24:09.you can imagine this is all quite, it has had a snowball effect and I'm

:24:10. > :24:13.thinking about so many things at the minute because it is still pretty

:24:14. > :24:19.raw, I'm just trying to get my head around everything, but I'm sickened.

:24:20. > :24:23.I can't comprehend how they could be doing that.

:24:24. > :24:31.What about this letter that the Football League sent out in 1989, a

:24:32. > :24:37.warning to clubs, about Bob Higgins saying don't, you know, do not get

:24:38. > :24:41.yourselves involved with the Bob Higgins Soccer Academy. Why do you

:24:42. > :24:45.think that wasn't heeded? It is still the same things, the emotions

:24:46. > :24:50.are going around in my mind at the moment that how all these people in

:24:51. > :24:55.these, you know, people of authority, can be doing this and

:24:56. > :25:01.getting away with it really, brushing it under the carpet. I wond

:25:02. > :25:04.whaer it has been like for you for so many decades keeping what

:25:05. > :25:12.happened to you as a boy hidden? Yeah. My life has been chaos really.

:25:13. > :25:19.Over the last 20 years and it has sort of pops its ugly head up and I

:25:20. > :25:27.mean, the drink and the drugs that I've sort of self medicated, been to

:25:28. > :25:34.prison three times for my anger issues, not helping obviously by my

:25:35. > :25:41.drink and drug abuse. Yes, it has just been chaos for everyone

:25:42. > :25:48.involved with me, relationships, my family, sort of in disbelief of the

:25:49. > :25:55.demise of myself really. I've got a real supportive family and loving

:25:56. > :25:58.family, but I went off the rails. Is it clear to you that that is

:25:59. > :26:03.directly led to what you say happened to you as a boy? I think

:26:04. > :26:08.so, yeah. I don't want to make excuses and as I say the drink and

:26:09. > :26:15.drugs have just made it ten times worse, you know, because I've gone

:26:16. > :26:20.along my life and it has been chaos really. I'm just hoping now I can

:26:21. > :26:29.start opening up and start living really. In terms of what happened to

:26:30. > :26:34.you, you were 12 when this began... Yes. Can you tell our audience a

:26:35. > :26:42.little bit of what Bob Higgins did to you? It started really with

:26:43. > :26:49.grooming and preferential treatment, coming round and picking me up and

:26:50. > :26:55.taking me to scouting missions, gifts, tracksuits, after shave, he

:26:56. > :26:59.bought me the same aftershave as him, the journeys to the different

:27:00. > :27:03.centre of excellences around the country. He would make a point of

:27:04. > :27:09.coming to pick me up, it would be late at night. I would be coming

:27:10. > :27:16.back from Harlow and other places. He would put Whitney Houston The

:27:17. > :27:20.Greatest Love Of All and because I was tired because I had to be back

:27:21. > :27:28.for school, lay your head in my lap and he would be stroking my head and

:27:29. > :27:34.I would, that was just when I started things, that was odd to me.

:27:35. > :27:38.This was happening. And he would want me to in the school holidays,

:27:39. > :27:45.football clubs would want you to go and sort of train with them down, he

:27:46. > :27:51.used to live in Southampton, I was living in Reading, he would want me

:27:52. > :27:57.to stay over at his house. Started off really when the first time I was

:27:58. > :28:00.there, I was sat watching TV of an evening after training. There was

:28:01. > :28:05.two older lads staying there. They were from a different part of the

:28:06. > :28:10.country and they were just in shorts, casually and just watched

:28:11. > :28:15.the TV. I was sat on the floor in the armchair watching the TV and all

:28:16. > :28:20.of a sudden the Bob would have the two lads laying cuddling each other

:28:21. > :28:25.and I was just thinking what is going on? Knowing that these two

:28:26. > :28:31.lads would be going back the next day and I was there for four days

:28:32. > :28:39.and I just thought, "Oh my god, this is going to be me." Then when the

:28:40. > :28:45.lads would go their own ways the next day and over the course of the

:28:46. > :28:52.week he would come into the box room where I was staying and sit on the

:28:53. > :28:56.bed. He would walk in late at night and he would come and sit down on

:28:57. > :29:00.the bed stroking my hair and then he would tell me to move up and he

:29:01. > :29:07.would lay on top of the covers and his hands would be going under the

:29:08. > :29:14.covers and touching my groin area and I could see his dressing gown

:29:15. > :29:21.was open and I could see everything and he was touching himself

:29:22. > :29:27.basically. And then other occasions he would call me in in the morning,

:29:28. > :29:31.for some reason his Mrs Would never be around. He this a young boy as

:29:32. > :29:43.well, he would call me into his bedroom and ask me to get into bed

:29:44. > :29:50.and obviously naked. I could feel him behind me. Again touching my

:29:51. > :29:59.groin area. So, yeah, this happened on a number of occasions. On a trip,

:30:00. > :30:03.we went on a trip to Gothenburg. We had to go from Harwich, I stayed

:30:04. > :30:07.overnight, but luckily that was two other lads with me, and nothing

:30:08. > :30:12.happened that night, but there were two teams the A and the B team, the

:30:13. > :30:17.Southampton Youth and everyone was wondering what team you would be in,

:30:18. > :30:22.the older lads the A team obviously and I was summoned to his room, no

:30:23. > :30:27.one knew who was going to be in what squad, everyone was buzzing and he

:30:28. > :30:31.called me into his room and he said Billy, I know you're a couple of

:30:32. > :30:37.years younger, but you're going to be in my A Team with the older lads.

:30:38. > :30:44.You're a special player. I can do real good things for you at this

:30:45. > :30:51.club, the same thing, he just had a shower and he wanted me to sit on

:30:52. > :30:55.his lap. And he would, I was just in my tracksuit and he would be putting

:30:56. > :31:02.his hands down inside my tracksuit. Was there a time when you thought

:31:03. > :31:22.about telling your parents? I nearly did come out with it. On

:31:23. > :31:28.another occasion in his bedroom, I ran out and grabbed my clothes, my

:31:29. > :31:32.tracksuit, and I ran out bare-chested, no shoes on or

:31:33. > :31:39.anything. I remember the red phone box near his house, he said, where

:31:40. > :31:47.are you going? I did not have any money, because I had rushed out. I

:31:48. > :31:55.made a reverse phone call. To my mum and dad. I was crying will stop they

:31:56. > :31:59.said, what's the matter? I said, I am homesick, I just want to come

:32:00. > :32:09.back, I am not feeling good. That is the closest I got. When did you

:32:10. > :32:21.finally tell them what you say happened to you as a boy? I served

:32:22. > :32:27.quite a long prison sentence. Disbelief what was happening and

:32:28. > :32:32.they put it down to me being's drinking to excess and taking drugs.

:32:33. > :32:39.I started to come at them, because it was coming to a head, I was

:32:40. > :32:41.getting into some dangerous situations, so I needed to start

:32:42. > :32:52.off-loading, and that is when it began, in 2011. How did they react?

:32:53. > :33:05.They were in bits, I could tell. Bob used to ridicule my father. That

:33:06. > :33:13.hurt me mentally. In the end he would ridicule him, driving a wedge

:33:14. > :33:20.between me and him, and I was allowing myself to agree with him.

:33:21. > :33:27.Not just the physical stuff, it is the mental stuff, the psychological

:33:28. > :33:35.problems I have had. I have put my family through them as well, I have

:33:36. > :33:44.not given my daughter the emotional support that she needs. It has been

:33:45. > :33:51.horrific. Life has been chaos, and I hope now that I can let it all out

:33:52. > :33:59.and begin living, because I have been living in my own dangerous

:34:00. > :34:05.bubble. I wonder if you feel that as a result of what you say happened to

:34:06. > :34:13.you at that age you have effectively had a ghost of a life? Yes. My mum

:34:14. > :34:20.said that, you are just ghosting through life. Seeing Steve and the

:34:21. > :34:28.other lads come out, it has given me a bit of strength. I know it is a

:34:29. > :34:34.process, but I am ready to fight back now. I want to read some

:34:35. > :34:40.comments from people who are watching. Danny says, this is a

:34:41. > :34:44.really touching interview. Matthew says, incredibly brave, these former

:34:45. > :34:49.footballers to appear on your programme. A snowball effect of

:34:50. > :34:59.alleged abuse through life is shocking. You were a talented young

:35:00. > :35:04.player, you were in the Southampton youth setup, you were selected to go

:35:05. > :35:11.to Lilleshall. Did Bob begins try to stop you from going? Yes. He did not

:35:12. > :35:20.want me to go out all. He was on his knees. At the training ground, it

:35:21. > :35:25.was somewhere where the youth team trained, he was on his knees,

:35:26. > :35:34.crying. Please don't go, this is not good for you. You should stay with

:35:35. > :35:40.me,... Getting their was the start of me, I managed to get released.

:35:41. > :35:43.Once you sign associate schoolboy forms, you are tied to that club,

:35:44. > :35:48.because of the clubs sniff around for stop but going there, it was the

:35:49. > :35:55.best thing that ever happened to me, because my century. -- it was my

:35:56. > :36:02.sanctuary. There was the homesickness, but it was the best

:36:03. > :36:09.place, I felt safe. It so happened Steve was in the same intake. It is

:36:10. > :36:18.funny how things have turned out, we are drawing strength from each

:36:19. > :36:27.other. We go back. Do you think you can start to live now? I am hoping

:36:28. > :36:37.to. My family are so supportive. I feel I am in safe hands now. With

:36:38. > :36:41.the support of your family? Yes. Thank you for talking to us, I

:36:42. > :36:46.really appreciated. I can see how difficult it is for you.

:36:47. > :36:49.And, of course, we've tried to put the allegations to Bob Higgins

:36:50. > :36:54.In 1991 Bob Higgins was acquitted after he'd been charged with six

:36:55. > :36:56.counts of indecent assault against young boys

:36:57. > :36:58.In a statement yesterday Southampton Football Club

:36:59. > :37:00.said they're working with Hampshire Police to investigate

:37:01. > :37:02.any historical allegations that may be brought to light

:37:03. > :37:16.If you have been affected, you can find a list of helplines on our

:37:17. > :37:18.website. Still to come, free

:37:19. > :37:20.speech or extremism? One British Muslim activist

:37:21. > :37:22.is taking the Government to court over its counter-terrorism programme

:37:23. > :37:25.after his views on homosexuality And this is a spit hood -

:37:26. > :37:38.otherwise known as a spit guard - a mesh fabric hood which are legally

:37:39. > :37:42.used by police to protect them from potentially

:37:43. > :37:45.being spat at or bitten. A children's charity says the number

:37:46. > :37:49.of under 17s having it put on their heads in England has

:37:50. > :37:52.tripled in the last year. Annita is in the BBC Newsroom

:37:53. > :38:13.with a summary of the news. The FA has published the terms of

:38:14. > :38:17.reference for its review into allegations of sexual abuse within

:38:18. > :38:19.the game. It said it will fully disclose the review's findings of.

:38:20. > :38:22.Lawyers from the Offside Trust, launched yesterday to support

:38:23. > :38:24.football players who are victims of abuse, say they have

:38:25. > :38:26.evidence of more sex-abuse cover-ups in football.

:38:27. > :38:29.They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players

:38:30. > :38:34.And they say big football figures still in the game are named

:38:35. > :38:42.A study suggests that the regular use of Caesarean sections is having

:38:43. > :38:47.Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow

:38:48. > :38:51.pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth,

:38:52. > :38:53.are now surviving to pass on the genes of their skeletal

:38:54. > :38:59.The Government is to make Network Rail share control of track

:39:00. > :39:02.maintenance in England with the private train-operating

:39:03. > :39:06.companies, in what's being seen as the biggest shake-up of the rail

:39:07. > :39:10.The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling says that Network Rail

:39:11. > :39:14.and the train operators should be able to work together to resolve

:39:15. > :39:16.problems more effectively, but unions have warned that safety

:39:17. > :39:27.Lawyers representing the team leading the legal fight

:39:28. > :39:29.against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy will begin

:39:30. > :39:33.The landmark Supreme Court hearing begins hearing a second day

:39:34. > :39:36.Yesterday, Government lawyers said the ministers had the power

:39:37. > :39:39.The High Court ruled against the Government in November

:39:40. > :39:47.and said Parliament should be consulted first.

:39:48. > :39:50.You can get hourly updates on the BBC News channel all morning

:39:51. > :39:53.and full coverage live this afternoon of the arguments being put

:39:54. > :39:55.forward by lawyers for those who brought the case.

:39:56. > :39:58.You can also catch all of the proceedings live

:39:59. > :40:07.online, with rolling text updates and analysis.

:40:08. > :40:12.That's a summary of the latest BBC News, more at 10am.

:40:13. > :40:20.Thank you for your comments about what Billy Seymour has been

:40:21. > :40:25.describing. Jill says, the poor man reliving the abuse he suffered, he

:40:26. > :40:29.is very brave. Carmen says, I am so sorry this happened. Please tell him

:40:30. > :40:34.he is brave to expose what happened, it is not his fault. Karen, it must

:40:35. > :40:39.be so harrowing to recall the nightmare of what happened, Billy.

:40:40. > :40:46.This week, so brave speaking out, I identify as an abused child with all

:40:47. > :40:50.of those feelings. One person says, brave, a lovely man, I am so glad he

:40:51. > :40:55.realises it was not his fault, I hope people to this behind him, with

:40:56. > :40:58.justice done. If you want to get in touch, you are very welcome.

:40:59. > :41:02.The England coach says Alastair Cook is "up for the fight" and will lead

:41:03. > :41:06.Last month, Cook hinted that he may step down

:41:07. > :41:09.after the current tour of India, but Bayliss says he was surprised

:41:10. > :41:12.by that and the pair are already working

:41:13. > :41:18.Reports in America suggest that Thomas Bjorn will be named

:41:19. > :41:23.Europe have lifted the trophy on the three occasions that

:41:24. > :41:28.He's also been an assistant captain four times.

:41:29. > :41:30.Hull City remain in the Premier League's bottom

:41:31. > :41:32.three after they lost 1-0 at Middlesbrough last night.

:41:33. > :41:35.Gaston Ramirez scored the only goal of the game just

:41:36. > :41:44.And, Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales'

:41:45. > :41:50.Jones won gold in Rio this summer, becoming the first Welsh woman

:41:51. > :41:52.to successfully defend an Olympic title.

:41:53. > :41:55.She also won the European crown earlier in the year.

:41:56. > :42:02.It's the second time she's been given the honour.

:42:03. > :42:07.A key part of the Government's counter-terrorism strategy Prevent

:42:08. > :42:09.is facing a legal challenge for the first time in

:42:10. > :42:14.A British Muslim activist whose controversial views on homosexuality

:42:15. > :42:18.saw him named as a non-violent extremist by the Government.

:42:19. > :42:24.But Salman Butt says that breaches his right to free speech.

:42:25. > :42:26.Our reporter Divya Talwar has been exclusively speaking to him

:42:27. > :42:32.and finding out more about this landmark court challenge.

:42:33. > :43:01.Last year, Dr Salman Butt was named in a government press

:43:02. > :43:03.release about tackling extremism in universities.

:43:04. > :43:07.He was listed as one of six speakers who gave talks on campuses

:43:08. > :43:10.and were known to have views which violate British values -

:43:11. > :43:15.democracy, free speech, equality and the rule of law.

:43:16. > :43:17.That's the Government's own definition of a

:43:18. > :43:25.At first, I thought there must be some other Dr Salman Butt.

:43:26. > :43:28.As the day went on, different newspapers

:43:29. > :43:34.started running the story, one of them had my picture.

:43:35. > :43:39.So, I thought, this is serious, this must be me then.

:43:40. > :43:42.A few weeks later, a Parliamentary question to the Home Office revealed

:43:43. > :43:47.The Home Office said, Dr Salman Butt, who is a chief

:43:48. > :43:51.editor of the web discussion forum Islam In The 21st Century,

:43:52. > :43:54.had used the site to host material violating British values

:43:55. > :43:59.and that he had himself expressed views on the site in social media.

:44:00. > :44:03.Things like appearing to compare homosexuality to paedophilia,

:44:04. > :44:09.He was also accused of speaking alongside the campaign group Cage,

:44:10. > :44:11.and supporting its views on Jihadi John, who the group

:44:12. > :44:17.described as once a kind, beautiful young man.

:44:18. > :44:18.They mentioned a few different accusations.

:44:19. > :44:21.All of them were false except for one, which was,

:44:22. > :44:25.this person shared a platform with Cage one time, a few years ago.

:44:26. > :44:30.Which I don't think is any sign of extremism

:44:31. > :44:45.They said, "He appears to compare homosexuality to paedophilia

:44:46. > :44:48."He appears to support FGM," or something ridiculous,

:44:49. > :44:53.They just used those links, a few articles I had

:44:54. > :44:58.written for Islam 21C, apparently not having read them.

:44:59. > :45:01.Because I don't see how anyone who read them could have come

:45:02. > :45:09.It's something forbidden, you know, to harm someone,

:45:10. > :45:18.What are your views on homosexuality?

:45:19. > :45:20.Marriage is between a man and a woman.

:45:21. > :45:25.So those things which people engage in, those actions people do

:45:26. > :45:30.which are against some people's religious views, whilst

:45:31. > :45:38.they have the right legally to do those things, we still have a right

:45:39. > :45:41.to at least teach our children and our communities that XYZ is a sin.

:45:42. > :45:45.So you believe that homosexuality is a sin?

:45:46. > :45:48.Can you see how vocalising that could potentially

:45:49. > :45:54.encourage or inspire others to hatred or violence?

:45:55. > :45:57.I mean, anything anyone can say could be used by somebody

:45:58. > :46:02.But I think it would be deeply fallacious to blame the person

:46:03. > :46:05.actually making the view in the first.

:46:06. > :46:09.My view is, if somebody wants to go down that line of argument,

:46:10. > :46:16.then apply it across all faiths and races and ethnicities.

:46:17. > :46:18.So if being against, for example, campaigning against same-sex

:46:19. > :46:20.marriage is some kind of sign of extremism or being un-British,

:46:21. > :46:26.the first people this applies to would be half the people

:46:27. > :46:37.in parliament who voted against, half the Tory party,

:46:38. > :46:42.who voted against the Same-sex Marriage Bill, for example.

:46:43. > :46:44.Dr Salman Butt was a regular speaker at universities,

:46:45. > :46:47.although he says he hasn't had any invitations since he was named

:46:48. > :46:48.a nonviolent extremist by the government.

:46:49. > :46:51.He wants to know why, so he's taking the Home Secretary

:46:52. > :46:54.He is also challenging the Government's controversial Prevent

:46:55. > :46:58.strand of the counterterrorism strategy for the first time.

:46:59. > :47:01.It aims to stop people becoming or supporting terrorists,

:47:02. > :47:05.but Doctor Butt's lawyers argue the Prevent duty is unlawful.

:47:06. > :47:09.Specifically how it has to be implemented in universities.

:47:10. > :47:16.Since last September, UK schools and universities

:47:17. > :47:18.have a new legal duty to engage with the Prevent strategy

:47:19. > :47:20.and try and stop people being drawn into terrorism.

:47:21. > :47:24.The National Union of Students says it creates suspicion

:47:25. > :47:30.London's Brunel University is one of dozens against it.

:47:31. > :47:34.The student union has completely boycotted the Prevent strategy.

:47:35. > :47:37.It refuses to engage with it, and in fact, protests and campaigns

:47:38. > :47:49.There is a real sense of fear and suspicion.

:47:50. > :47:51.And sort of questioning of where the academic freedoms come in,

:47:52. > :47:56.So on campuses, we've got people self-censoring in classrooms.

:47:57. > :47:58.We've got students worried about what websites they can go

:47:59. > :48:00.on, students worried about what they can study.

:48:01. > :48:02.Cutting things out of their dissertations,

:48:03. > :48:08.It's really curtailing the freedom of someone who wants to come

:48:09. > :48:16.There have been occasions where I have been afraid

:48:17. > :48:19.to put my head above the parapet and, sort of, give my opinion

:48:20. > :48:22.on certain things at the risk of being treated as an outcast.

:48:23. > :48:24.Treated as someone that may be suspected of being

:48:25. > :48:31.I mean, when I've been searching for certain things,

:48:32. > :48:35.my friends have been saying to me, be careful, be incognito,

:48:36. > :48:38.because if the university monitor what you're doing,

:48:39. > :48:43.that puts you in a very sort of precarious and vulnerable

:48:44. > :48:49.position where your freedoms may be curtailed.

:48:50. > :48:53.Do you think there's a sense of paranoia

:48:54. > :49:01.I don't think there is a paranoia or oversensitivity,

:49:02. > :49:04.because I personally know of people who have been referred to Prevent

:49:05. > :49:06.over a simple aspect of their own debate,

:49:07. > :49:18.And this was organised by their sixth form debating society.

:49:19. > :49:20.Because they have their own religious beliefs,

:49:21. > :49:23.which I personally believe I share similar practices of Islam to them.

:49:24. > :49:25.For them to be referred to the Prevent officer and get

:49:26. > :49:27.searched, the whole house, his computer, his phones,

:49:28. > :49:33.everything, I don't think there's oversensitivity.

:49:34. > :49:35.I should be cautious, because this happened to my friend.

:49:36. > :49:43.The students I met at Brunel were all familiar with this man's

:49:44. > :49:46.story and used it as an example of why they were on edge

:49:47. > :49:52.Until last year, he was studying a Masters at Staffordshire

:49:53. > :49:58.He was reading this book on terrorism studies

:49:59. > :50:01.in the campus library, part of the course reading list,

:50:02. > :50:03.when he was questioned by a member of staff.

:50:04. > :50:13.Do you think that the three girls who left Bethnal Green

:50:14. > :50:16.in order to join Isis, what do you think of them?

:50:17. > :50:17.The questions became progressively intrusive.

:50:18. > :50:21.I was reading this very page in the book...

:50:22. > :50:23.The staff member was concerned after the conversation and,

:50:24. > :50:26.under the Prevent duty, wanted to flag it up.

:50:27. > :50:29.Security on campus were asked for Mohammed's details.

:50:30. > :50:32.Once he found out what was going on, he launched his own complaint

:50:33. > :50:38.against the university and hired a lawyer.

:50:39. > :50:41.Do you think there was anything that you said that gave the member

:50:42. > :50:44.of staff reason for concern and, rightly so, she then went

:50:45. > :50:47.There was no, "I think, I believe..."

:50:48. > :50:50.It was purely "So and so said" or "It's been said and

:50:51. > :50:53.I followed the academic code to the exact level.

:50:54. > :50:57.But unfortunately that did me no favours.

:50:58. > :50:59.Mohammed's studies were put on hold while the university

:51:00. > :51:06.They apologised but he's decided not to go back.

:51:07. > :51:08.The concerns on the impact of free speech in universities

:51:09. > :51:11.because of the Prevent duty is one of the key things Dr Salman Butt's

:51:12. > :51:18.One of the arguments is that the Prevent

:51:19. > :51:23.It's too broad in the way it defines extremism.

:51:24. > :51:25.And that it's open to subjective interpretation

:51:26. > :51:32.And that it conflicts with the legal duty on universities

:51:33. > :51:45.So there's a direct conflict between the Prevent strategy

:51:46. > :51:47.and the Education Act, which requires universities

:51:48. > :51:50.The Prevent strategy is controversial.

:51:51. > :51:55.There is support for it, though, even among British Muslims.

:51:56. > :51:58.So many will be waiting to see the outcome of this legal challenge.

:51:59. > :52:00.The Home Office said it would be inappropriate to comment

:52:01. > :52:08.What happens if you lose this legal challenge and the courts say, well,

:52:09. > :52:10.actually you are an extremist, a nonviolent extremist?

:52:11. > :52:15.If, at the end of this, somebody like me turns out to be

:52:16. > :52:17.legally defined as an extremist, then what I would campaign

:52:18. > :52:20.for is everyone who holds the same views as myself to likewise be

:52:21. > :52:28.labelled as such, to show how absurd this is.

:52:29. > :52:30.We asked the Home Office for a response.

:52:31. > :52:33.They said it would not be appropriate to comment until legal

:52:34. > :52:45.I have got one comment I want to read on that actually.

:52:46. > :52:49.It is from Gary who says, "I attended Prevent training at work

:52:50. > :52:54.and I found it very useful. It changed my view on what extremists

:52:55. > :53:01.behaviour is. People think this strategy is anti-Islamic. It is not.

:53:02. > :53:02.The training package I went to was about right-wingism and football

:53:03. > :53:07.hooliganism." It's been claimed that up to 40

:53:08. > :53:10.Conservative MPs could vote against the Prime Minister Theresa May

:53:11. > :53:12.in any Commons debate on whether or not the government

:53:13. > :53:19.should be forced to reveal its plans Let's talk to Norman. Explain what

:53:20. > :53:25.the Labour-led motion is calling for? The top line is Theresa May

:53:26. > :53:31.could be facing her first Commons defeat on Brexit. It would be her

:53:32. > :53:37.first defeat since she became Prime Minister. There is a sense of when

:53:38. > :53:43.the cat is away, the mice will play because Mrs May is in the Gulf. We

:53:44. > :53:47.have got pictures of her talking to British service personnel out in

:53:48. > :53:51.Bahrain, actually wishing them a merry Christmas. It looks sunny, and

:53:52. > :53:56.not a very Christmassy scene. However, when she is away, Labour

:53:57. > :54:01.have tabled a motion saying that she should publish a document setting

:54:02. > :54:05.out a Brexit plans, in other words, telling everyone what it is she is

:54:06. > :54:09.trying to do, not giving the nitty-gritty of her negotiating

:54:10. > :54:14.strategy, but the big picture, what she is going to do about the single

:54:15. > :54:18.market and what she is going to do about freedom of movement, there

:54:19. > :54:23.could be 20 and maybe up to 40, it is claimed, Tory MPs, who might

:54:24. > :54:27.support Labour. Now, if that happened, Mrs May, tomorrow would be

:54:28. > :54:34.heading as I say for her first Commons defeat and what's added a

:54:35. > :54:40.little twist to it, there are signs even some Brexiteers might want Mrs

:54:41. > :54:44.May want to publish her plans. They have been getting edgy because she

:54:45. > :54:52.has been suggesting we might keep paying in to make sure we stay in

:54:53. > :54:55.the single market. Listen to Philip Hammond.

:54:56. > :54:58.What we've said is we want to keep as many options open as possible

:54:59. > :55:00.so we go into these negotiation with as much flexibility

:55:01. > :55:02.as possible recognising that they will be complex,

:55:03. > :55:05.they will be lengthy and we want to be able to negotiate

:55:06. > :55:09.in good faith with our European partners to see if we can find a way

:55:10. > :55:16.of working together in the future that benefits both sides.

:55:17. > :55:23.So, will Mrs May come up with some sort of compromise to get round this

:55:24. > :55:28.possible defeat? Will there be some sort of plan published? I think not

:55:29. > :55:32.because she made very clear that if she does that, she fears she might

:55:33. > :55:36.show her negotiating hand to other EU leaders. More than that, she made

:55:37. > :55:42.it almost part of her leadership that she is not going to be pushed

:55:43. > :55:47.around by Parliament or the media or judges when it comes to Brexit. Her

:55:48. > :55:52.view is the people have spoken, she will deliver, but what that means is

:55:53. > :55:56.she could, as I say, be facing her first defeat tomorrow and it would

:55:57. > :55:59.be not just embarrassing because it is about Brexit, it would also

:56:00. > :56:05.underline the tensions in her own party and it would be personal as I

:56:06. > :56:09.say, because she made such a thing of not giving ground to anyone else

:56:10. > :56:22.when it comes to Brexit. Cheers Norman, thank you.

:56:23. > :56:25.It is Supreme Court

:56:26. > :56:32.It is day two of the Supreme Court hearing.

:56:33. > :56:34.James Corden has had everyone from Beyonce,

:56:35. > :56:37.Adele and One director to the first lady Michelle Obama in his car,

:56:38. > :56:46.but now it's time for the best selling female artist of all time.

:56:47. > :56:54.Thank you so much for showing me around the city. I don't know New

:56:55. > :57:00.York that well. Do you mind if we listen to some

:57:01. > :57:02.music? Would that be OK? Snide don't like riding around in a car unless

:57:03. > :57:21.there is music. What was a night out with Michael

:57:22. > :57:32.Jackson or a night in? So you want me to kiss and tell? Did you kiss?

:57:33. > :57:37.We will bring you more when it goes live.

:57:38. > :57:42.Let's get the latest weather update with Carol.

:57:43. > :57:47.This morning it was cold at 5am, there was a 20 Celsius temperature

:57:48. > :57:51.difference between the north and south of the country. We had frost

:57:52. > :57:55.and minus nine Celsius in Aviemore and we had cloud and we had a

:57:56. > :58:00.temperature of 11 Celsius in Plymouth. Now, the fog that we've

:58:01. > :58:02.had is still very much with us, particularly across England,

:58:03. > :58:06.particularly around Gloucestershire for example, the Midlands, into East

:58:07. > :58:10.Anglia, Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Some of that is still dense, but

:58:11. > :58:14.slowly today, it will lift up into low cloud. You can see from the

:58:15. > :58:17.spacing on the isobars, there is not much wind to clear it away. We have

:58:18. > :58:20.got a set of weather fronts coming in from the west. They are

:58:21. > :58:24.introducing rain and strengthening winds and the rain has been pushing

:58:25. > :58:28.across Northern Ireland and in through parts of Western Scotland.

:58:29. > :58:33.But for the rest of the UK, it is mostly dry. So as we go through the

:58:34. > :58:37.morning, the wind will strengthen in the west, the rain will continue to

:58:38. > :58:41.advance and the fog will lift into low cloud. There will be some breaks

:58:42. > :58:44.the we have got frost around where temperatures are low and that's

:58:45. > :58:48.where we are looking at sunny spells. But even in the sunshine, it

:58:49. > :58:52.will feel cold. So here is the rain this afternoon across Northern

:58:53. > :58:55.Ireland, it will be windy as well. The rain continuing across northern

:58:56. > :58:59.and Western Scotland accompanied by the wind. Some brighter skies across

:59:00. > :59:05.north-east Scotland, but look at the temperature in abdaornings only six

:59:06. > :59:10.SS. Four Celsius in Edinburgh, five in Glasgow. As we push south across

:59:11. > :59:14.England, there will be a lot of cloud. There will be one or two

:59:15. > :59:21.sunnier breaks. Wherever you are, it will feel cold. Come into the south

:59:22. > :59:25.and the south-west, here temperatures are already 11 Celsius.

:59:26. > :59:30.It is a similar story for Wales. Cloudy afternoon. Temperatures up to

:59:31. > :59:33.11 Celsius. As we go through the day and the rain advances eastwards, the

:59:34. > :59:40.temperatures will rise and they will rise by night as well. So a wet

:59:41. > :59:43.night across Scotland and for a time Northern Ireland. We are looking at

:59:44. > :59:47.a high today of five Celsius in Glasgow and tonight it will be 12

:59:48. > :59:50.Celsius. We have got more fog reforming across the South East. We

:59:51. > :59:54.don't expect it to be as widespread or as dense as the fog we saw this

:59:55. > :59:58.morning. Tomorrow, it will be frost-free across the UK. The first

:59:59. > :00:03.time we have seen seen that since 15th November. Our weather front

:00:04. > :00:07.will push to push across western parts of Wales and the south-west.

:00:08. > :00:12.But equally there will be sunshine. Temperatures could hit 16 Celsius

:00:13. > :00:12.around the Moray Firth and north-east England and north-east

:00:13. > :00:18.Wales. Hello, it's Tuesday, just

:00:19. > :00:20.after 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. This morning, more damning

:00:21. > :00:22.allegations over abuse in football, including claims of more cover-ups

:00:23. > :00:24.and that people still involved in the game have

:00:25. > :00:34.been involved in abuse. It was probably worse in the old

:00:35. > :00:39.days, but the problems still persist. There could still be people

:00:40. > :00:41.within football and other sports who were either complicit or were

:00:42. > :00:50.engaging in this activity? Yes. We heard from a former Southampton

:00:51. > :00:53.youth player who said he was abused by his former coach for two years as

:00:54. > :01:00.a boy. It has been horrific. Life has been

:01:01. > :01:07.chaos, and I am hoping now that I can let it all out and begin living,

:01:08. > :01:12.because I have just been living in my own dangerous bubble.

:01:13. > :01:18.You can watch the full interview again on our programme page.

:01:19. > :01:19.Later, we will speak to family members about the impact the

:01:20. > :01:23.revelations have had on them. A children's charity says

:01:24. > :01:25.spit hoods, otherwise known as spit guards,

:01:26. > :01:27.are being increasingly used They say the numbers in England have

:01:28. > :01:38.tripled over the last year. We will hear from charity and from

:01:39. > :01:39.the police, who say such guards are vital.

:01:40. > :01:41.Could the routine use of caesarean section be having

:01:42. > :01:45.Scientists claim the surgery is enabling women with a narrow

:01:46. > :01:47.pelvic opening to survive childbirth and pass their genes

:01:48. > :02:02.Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:02:03. > :02:04.In the last hour, the Football Association has

:02:05. > :02:07.published the terms of reference for its review into allegations

:02:08. > :02:09.of sexual abuse within the game, and said it will fully disclose

:02:10. > :02:12.Meanwhile, lawyers from the Offside Trust,

:02:13. > :02:14.launched yesterday to support football players who are victims

:02:15. > :02:18.of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse

:02:19. > :02:26.They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players

:02:27. > :02:30.And they say big football figures still in the game are named

:02:31. > :02:43.Our correspondent gave Victoria and update.

:02:44. > :02:49.The scale is clear, there are over 20 police force is looking into

:02:50. > :02:56.allegations that have been made, 55 clubs are involved, at all levels,

:02:57. > :03:00.from very senior through to non-league. Over 350 survivors have

:03:01. > :03:05.reported their claims to the authorities over the past week. But

:03:06. > :03:09.those of figures that are days old, we are waiting for updates, people

:03:10. > :03:11.are still finding the courage to come forward and tell their stories.

:03:12. > :03:14.A study suggests that the regular use of caesarean sections is having

:03:15. > :03:19.Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow

:03:20. > :03:22.pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth,

:03:23. > :03:24.are now surviving, to pass on the genes of their skeletal

:03:25. > :03:41.A key part of the Government's counterterrorism strategy Prevent is

:03:42. > :03:47.challenged in the High Court. The Home Office says it plays a key

:03:48. > :03:49.role, but a British Muslim activist named as a non-violent extremists

:03:50. > :03:56.will argue that the strategy breaches his right to free speech.

:03:57. > :03:58.Some of the world's biggest tech companies are teaming up to prevent

:03:59. > :04:04.extremist material being shared online. They will share details of

:04:05. > :04:10.images and videos they remove from their sites to stop the material

:04:11. > :04:15.cropping up elsewhere. Lawyers representing the team

:04:16. > :04:19.leading the legal fight against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy

:04:20. > :04:24.begin making their case later. The hearing begins hearing a second day

:04:25. > :04:27.of evidence this morning. Yesterday Government lawyers said ministers

:04:28. > :04:30.had the power to trigger article 50. The High Court ruled against the

:04:31. > :04:32.Government in November and said Parliament should be consulted

:04:33. > :04:37.first. You can get hourly updates on the

:04:38. > :04:40.BBC News Channel all morning and full coverage live from inside the

:04:41. > :04:44.Supreme Court this afternoon of the arguments being put forward by

:04:45. > :04:48.lawyers for those who brought the case. You can catch the proceedings

:04:49. > :04:57.live online with rolling text updates and analysis.

:04:58. > :05:02.Nigel Farage has been short listed by Time magazine for its Person of

:05:03. > :05:06.the year award. The magazine says his role in helping bring about

:05:07. > :05:10.Brexit started a global populist wave against the political

:05:11. > :05:14.establishment. Others on the short list of people deemed to have most

:05:15. > :05:17.influenced the news include Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Turkey's

:05:18. > :05:22.president began and Beyonce. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:05:23. > :05:31.News, more at 10:30am. Thank you for your comments about

:05:32. > :05:35.Billy Seymour, on the programme earlier, he played for Coventry and

:05:36. > :05:40.Millwall, he was talking about the abuse he experienced as a young boy

:05:41. > :05:49.between the ages of 12 and 14. Steve Walters, who we spoke to, sweet, so

:05:50. > :05:53.proud of you, we will catch up soon. Terry says, the interview with Billy

:05:54. > :05:59.Seymour reduced me to tears and triggered memories and the enduring

:06:00. > :06:04.pain and shame. One person says, very painful to watch, but a serious

:06:05. > :06:12.eye opener. Ian says, a tough but compelling watch. A courageous man,

:06:13. > :06:17.courageous men, all of them. Victor says, easier to understand the

:06:18. > :06:23.horrific effects of sexual abuse. Angela says, heartbreaking, watching

:06:24. > :06:26.the interviews, mentally and physically destroying these young

:06:27. > :06:32.boys is awful beyond words. One more for now, the interview today shows

:06:33. > :06:36.the long-term impact of sexual abuse so clearly. Thank you for those.

:06:37. > :06:38.Do get in touch with us throughout the morning.

:06:39. > :06:42.If you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

:06:43. > :06:52.Alastair Cook had suggested the series in India could be his last as

:06:53. > :06:53.captain. The England coach says Alastair Cook

:06:54. > :06:56.is "up for the fight" and will lead Last month, Cook hinted

:06:57. > :07:00.that he may step down after the current tour of India,

:07:01. > :07:03.but Bayliss says he was surprised by that and the pair

:07:04. > :07:14.are already working Sometimes little comments are made

:07:15. > :07:21.and they get blown out of proportion. He is up for the fight.

:07:22. > :07:26.Like everybody else, he is disappointed with the results over

:07:27. > :07:30.here. In the end, national players want to win, they are professional

:07:31. > :07:37.players. A bit of disappointment there. But we are heading in the

:07:38. > :07:38.right direction. Reports in America suggest that

:07:39. > :07:41.Thomas Bjorn is to be named the European Ryder Cup

:07:42. > :07:43.captain for 2018. Europe won the cup in all three

:07:44. > :07:45.contests where Bjorn He's also been an assistant

:07:46. > :07:53.captain four times. Hull City remain in

:07:54. > :07:55.the Premier League's bottom three after they lost 1-0

:07:56. > :07:58.at Middlesbrough last night. Gaston Ramirez scored the only

:07:59. > :08:00.goal of the game just Manchester City and Chelsea

:08:01. > :08:10.have been charged by the Football Association for failing

:08:11. > :08:13.to control their players during There was a mass brawl at the end

:08:14. > :08:18.of the match at the Etihad, Sergio Aguero has already

:08:19. > :08:22.been banned for four matches for his part in it,

:08:23. > :08:25.although he's available Brazilian club Chapecoense have been

:08:26. > :08:33.awarded the Copa Sudamericana, following the plane crash that

:08:34. > :08:39.killed 19 of their players. They were on their way

:08:40. > :08:42.to the first leg of the final against Atletico Nacional

:08:43. > :08:44.when their plane went down. Nacional asked for Chapecoense

:08:45. > :08:48.to be given the title, and they've received a fair-play

:08:49. > :08:56.award to acknowledge the gesture. Olympic taekwondo champion

:08:57. > :08:59.Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales' Jones won gold in Rio this summer,

:09:00. > :09:04.becoming the first Welsh woman to successfully defend

:09:05. > :09:07.an Olympic title. She also won the European crown

:09:08. > :09:11.earlier in the year. It's the second time she's

:09:12. > :09:15.been given the honour. And, remember England going out

:09:16. > :09:19.to Iceland at the Euros? It seemed everyone

:09:20. > :09:21.was talking about it. It was the most tweeted-about

:09:22. > :09:25.sporting moment on 128,000 tweets per minute,

:09:26. > :09:35.21,000 more than when Embarrassment for England gets

:09:36. > :09:53.people talking. You wondered why he had

:09:54. > :09:59.these problems, and now "He couldn't even

:10:00. > :10:02.look me in the eye. The words of family members of some

:10:03. > :10:08.of the footballers we've spoken to on this programme over

:10:09. > :10:11.the last few weeks. The impact of years of abuse

:10:12. > :10:15.on those young footballers has been evident in many of the interviews

:10:16. > :10:17.you've seen on the programme But how does that abuse

:10:18. > :10:21.affect family members, mothers, partners, siblings,

:10:22. > :10:27.who also live with the legacy? Billy Seymour says he was abused

:10:28. > :10:31.by his coach at Southampton. He told us in the last hour how

:10:32. > :10:49.it had affected them. I served quite a long prison

:10:50. > :10:53.sentence. Disbelief at what was happening, they put it down to be

:10:54. > :11:01.being... Drinking to excess and taking drugs. I started to come at

:11:02. > :11:06.them, because it was coming to a head, I was getting into some

:11:07. > :11:07.dangerous situations, so I needed to start off-loading. That is when it

:11:08. > :11:26.began, in 2011. How did they react? They were in bits. I could tell. Bob

:11:27. > :11:33.used to ridicule my father, that hurt me mentally. In the end, he

:11:34. > :11:39.would ridicule him, driving a wedge between me and my father. In a way,

:11:40. > :11:46.the mental stuff, I was allowing myself to agree with him. It is not

:11:47. > :11:52.just the physical stuff, it is the mental stuff, the psychological

:11:53. > :12:01.problems I have had. I have put my family through them as well. My

:12:02. > :12:08.daughter, I have not given her the emotional support that she needs. It

:12:09. > :12:15.has been horrific. Life has been chaos, and I am hoping now that I

:12:16. > :12:17.can let it all out and begin living, because I have been living in my own

:12:18. > :12:20.bubble, dangerous bubble. This morning we can speak to two

:12:21. > :12:22.relatives who're talking for the first time about the impact

:12:23. > :12:25.it's had on them. Matt Monaghan was signed

:12:26. > :12:26.to Manchester United under Alex Ferguson,

:12:27. > :12:29.but years earlier he says he was abused whilst at another

:12:30. > :12:32.club, which we're not naming And you may remember we spoke

:12:33. > :12:40.to David Eatock last week. He says he was groomed

:12:41. > :12:44.by George Ormond whilst His twin brother

:12:45. > :13:11.Paul is with us now. David, I introduce you to Denise,

:13:12. > :13:24.and Denise to David. What did you think about what David told you?

:13:25. > :13:26.Shock. He told me loosely, but I discovered the extent of the abuse,

:13:27. > :13:34.which was difficult reading, last week. And being on your show. He

:13:35. > :13:40.told you just that their details a couple of years ago? Yes, very

:13:41. > :13:48.loosely. He was more open to his wife, who has been very supportive.

:13:49. > :13:57.I had found out the majority of the abuse in further detail from your

:13:58. > :14:00.show. How far would you into your relationship with Matthew when he

:14:01. > :14:10.decided to tell you? It was about six months in. How did it come out?

:14:11. > :14:17.He woke me up in the middle of the night. He was heartbroken. He said,

:14:18. > :14:21.I have got something to tell you. He said, when you get up in the morning

:14:22. > :14:26.comedy will not see me again. He could not look me in the eye. He was

:14:27. > :14:33.really upset, he told me what had happened. Not in great detail, but

:14:34. > :14:43.he said, this is why I act the way I do. He was broken. I wonder what

:14:44. > :14:48.prompted him then. He should have been coming to mind in November for

:14:49. > :14:53.a bonfire night, and he could not turn up, I could not get hold of him

:14:54. > :14:59.for three or four nights, and when I did, I said, I cannot deal with

:15:00. > :15:06.this, I am not cut out with this. He was like, I will bring you tomorrow.

:15:07. > :15:11.He went to speak to his mum, she said, you are going to have to tell

:15:12. > :15:17.her. She does not realise why you are acting in this way. That is why

:15:18. > :15:23.he stays in the pub sometimes and he does a lot of betting.

:15:24. > :15:28.I wonder if there were behaviours of Dave's over the years which were

:15:29. > :15:36.different to the way you behaved? Yes, definitely. When Dave was

:15:37. > :15:39.released from Newcastle by Kenny Dalglish in 1998, subsequently the

:15:40. > :15:48.last 28 years of his life, he was a shell of the person what I knew when

:15:49. > :15:53.he went there suffering from agoraphobia, depression, OCD, it is

:15:54. > :15:57.easier to accept the way he has behaved now that everything has come

:15:58. > :16:01.to light and we can understand off other people's experiences that he

:16:02. > :16:06.is not on his own and there is a lot of people out there who has gone

:16:07. > :16:11.through a similar kind of abuse and the subsequent emotions. So things,

:16:12. > :16:17.things sort of make more sense now that you know? Yeah, definitely.

:16:18. > :16:22.Definitely. Denise, you're nodding in agreement. Does that ring a bell

:16:23. > :16:27.with you? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You know now why Matthew behaves the

:16:28. > :16:33.way he does sometimes. You've got more time for it really. What is the

:16:34. > :16:40.impact on you then, Denise as his partner? Well, some days he doesn't

:16:41. > :16:45.want to get out of bed. Some days he just wants to go to the pub and

:16:46. > :16:49.forget about everybody. It is really hard. It is hard watching him, you

:16:50. > :16:55.know, the way he is, it is a shame because he just can't get on with

:16:56. > :16:59.his life and you know he also says, "I feel really sorry for you. You

:17:00. > :17:03.shouldn't be going through this. You suffer too." He has bad days and I

:17:04. > :17:06.have bad days over it, but it is just being there for support with

:17:07. > :17:10.him and that's all you can do really.

:17:11. > :17:17.And what about you Paul, the impact on you and the wider family? They

:17:18. > :17:20.have missed some family events. Daughter's birthdays and things like

:17:21. > :17:24.that where he has not been able to either leave the house or feel

:17:25. > :17:30.comfortable enough to attend such events. I think now that this has

:17:31. > :17:34.come out, we can obviously, like Denise said, you're there for them

:17:35. > :17:37.anyway and you can show support, now you can actually show the full

:17:38. > :17:42.support because you can appreciate exactly what he has been through

:17:43. > :17:47.which is, it is pretty horrific. You don't intend to see your brother

:17:48. > :17:54.achieve his life long ambition of being a professional at Newcastle

:17:55. > :17:58.United and three years of subsequent abuse and returning him back to our

:17:59. > :18:05.family a shell of the person he went as. When you think about the future,

:18:06. > :18:08.Denise, you and Matthew in your relationship together and you've got

:18:09. > :18:13.children from previous relationships, how do you view it?

:18:14. > :18:19.Yeah, all the children live with us and it is difficult for them too.

:18:20. > :18:23.Matthew has off days and you know, he doesn't turn up to things like

:18:24. > :18:32.some funerals he hasn't turned up to. Restaurants where he just has to

:18:33. > :18:38.get up and go and sit on the pavement outside. Yes, so it affects

:18:39. > :18:42.all of us and you know the children, you've only just found out since it

:18:43. > :18:50.come to light last week really with the children. So they have been very

:18:51. > :18:58.supportive. How proud are you Paul, of your brother? Yes, extremely

:18:59. > :19:02.proud. Not just of David, Andy Woodward, set off the trend if you

:19:03. > :19:07.like, he was unbelievable, watching that. I played in the same team as

:19:08. > :19:10.David with Andy Woodward so when it's something you can connect with

:19:11. > :19:14.and another individual who you know, you know, it gives you the strength

:19:15. > :19:21.and the courage to come forward and the truth is we've, we were living

:19:22. > :19:29.the after marks of this, we're the victims, but we should be walking

:19:30. > :19:34.around with our heads held high and you know the abusers should be the

:19:35. > :19:39.ones who is hiding away and not having the courage to come out.

:19:40. > :19:43.Denise, how proud are you of Matthew? Oh, really proud. Really

:19:44. > :19:47.proud, yeah and the kids are too. You know, as they say, there is no

:19:48. > :19:52.shame in it. Hold your head up high and you know this is, I think, this

:19:53. > :19:57.is Matthew's therapy now and you know, so you can deal with it a lot

:19:58. > :20:01.more. He held this, you know, on his shoulders for many, many years on

:20:02. > :20:04.his own now. Well, he has got all his family and his friends behind

:20:05. > :20:09.him so this is the way forward for Matthew now. An e-mail from Elaine

:20:10. > :20:16.saying, "It is good to hear the views of the families of the victims

:20:17. > :20:21.of abuse. Both my children were abused in the 80s, but no one ever

:20:22. > :20:26.considers how the parents feel. Thank you for talking about this

:20:27. > :20:31.because we all suffer." Yes. Would you echo that Denise? Definitely.

:20:32. > :20:36.You send your children to, you know, football clubs and you know dance

:20:37. > :20:41.classes and you expect them to be safe and you know, you can beat

:20:42. > :20:46.yourself up over it, but we weren't to know, you know, that monster was

:20:47. > :20:55.out there. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Denise,

:20:56. > :21:05.thank you. Denise and Paul, I called you David, sorry. You'll forgive me,

:21:06. > :21:11.won't you? Yeah. News from the QPR website and it is regarding

:21:12. > :21:15.historical algags of sexual abuse. QPR have been made aware of the

:21:16. > :21:19.historical allegations made against a former club employee relate to go

:21:20. > :21:22.child abuse in football. The club takes the allegation seriously and

:21:23. > :21:26.will co-operate fully in any forthcoming investigation. Any form

:21:27. > :21:39.of abuse has no place in football or society. QPR go on, "QPR has robust

:21:40. > :21:42.recruitment procedures. We employ a full-time designated safeguarding

:21:43. > :21:49.manager who works across all areas of the club. In line with the FA,

:21:50. > :21:53.Premier League and Football League guidelines we have had someone

:21:54. > :21:57.responsible for safeguarding in place since 2011." If you have been

:21:58. > :22:02.affected by anything we have been discussing this morning, you can

:22:03. > :22:12.find a list of helplines at the BBC Actionline.

:22:13. > :22:18.If you want to watch live coverage of the four-day Supreme Court case

:22:19. > :22:26.over the Government's approach to triggering Brexit, you can watch

:22:27. > :22:32.it on the BBC News website, by going to: bbc.co.uk/Brexit

:22:33. > :22:36.This is a spit hood, otherwise known as a spit guard,

:22:37. > :22:40.described by civil liberties groups as "a primitive, cruel

:22:41. > :22:48.and degrading tool that inspires fear and anguish".

:22:49. > :22:51.The mesh fabric hoods are legally used by police and placed over

:22:52. > :22:54.the heads of suspects to protect police officers from potentially

:22:55. > :22:57.Now a children's charity says the number of under-17s having it

:22:58. > :23:00.put on their heads in England has tripled in the last

:23:01. > :23:04.Though they say the true number could be even higher.

:23:05. > :23:07.This is one mother's short account of how her daughter, then aged 11,

:23:08. > :23:21.They had her under each arm and she had a spit hood

:23:22. > :23:24.over her head and leg and ankle restraints on and her

:23:25. > :23:30.And she had no, like, fight left in her anymore

:23:31. > :23:32.and they were literally dragging her with no shoes on.

:23:33. > :23:36.That must have been very upsetting to see?

:23:37. > :23:43.Here's an example of a spit hood being used

:23:44. > :24:18.Let's talk to Shamik Daunt who is a lawyer that works

:24:19. > :24:21.with the Charity Inquest and Che Donald who is from

:24:22. > :24:23.the Police Federation and is a serving police officer.

:24:24. > :24:28.Tell us why you're against the use of spit hoods, spit guards? I think

:24:29. > :24:33.we need to be clear that the use of these implements is both barbaric

:24:34. > :24:39.and it is unnecessary. Why? It is barbaric because of the real risk it

:24:40. > :24:42.places to a child in particular, physical health and their mental

:24:43. > :24:46.health and also the fact that it places that child in unacceptable

:24:47. > :24:50.risk of serious injury or loss of life. It is unnecessary because

:24:51. > :24:53.there are many other forms of restraint that are available to a

:24:54. > :24:56.police officer and it is probably for that reason that the vast

:24:57. > :25:00.majority or the majority of police forces in England and Wales don't

:25:01. > :25:07.use these devices. How does a spit guard lead to a loss of life? The

:25:08. > :25:10.main problem that I can see is that these devices are used in

:25:11. > :25:16.conjunction with other forms of restraint. Certain force policies

:25:17. > :25:20.say they can only be used once somebody is handcuffed. If somebody

:25:21. > :25:24.is handcuffed and held face down there is a risk of asphyxia. When

:25:25. > :25:29.that happens, it is difficult for a police officer to quickly respond

:25:30. > :25:32.and to identify that the individual being restrained is suffering that

:25:33. > :25:36.risk if there is a spit hood over their head. There are numerous

:25:37. > :25:43.examples around the world. OK, do you accept that? No. Ironically. It

:25:44. > :25:46.does seem to make logical sense, if your arms are behind your back and

:25:47. > :25:51.you're face down and you've got a spit hood on, there is a chance of

:25:52. > :25:56.positional asphyxia? I would say that application of a spit guard

:25:57. > :26:00.reduces that risk because if the spit guard isn't there, you're

:26:01. > :26:04.having to physically manhandle someone to prevent their face coming

:26:05. > :26:09.into your clear direction or that of your colleagues to prevent the

:26:10. > :26:12.spitting from taking place. If they are restrained in a horizontal

:26:13. > :26:17.position on the ground with the guard on, there is no pressure to

:26:18. > :26:20.them, the positional asphyxia risk is significantly reduced and it

:26:21. > :26:23.looks after the welfare of not only the person on the floor, but also

:26:24. > :26:27.the officers that are having to deal with that person. The other thing

:26:28. > :26:32.that I would also mention is, we spoke about children. We're talking

:26:33. > :26:39.about lack of a spit guard will mean physical force on a child to direct

:26:40. > :26:45.and push their head away from coming into contact. You don't have one. I

:26:46. > :26:49.do. Let's have a look. Snoot guard I've got here is identical to the

:26:50. > :26:55.guard you had in the video. A lot of the concern is that the guard is,

:26:56. > :26:58.you can't see what's happening to the person's face when they are in.

:26:59. > :27:04.And I'm happy to put this on. Please. You can have a look and see

:27:05. > :27:09.exactly where my face is. I'm talking. I'm not restricted. My

:27:10. > :27:13.breathing isn't laboured. I've worn this in training. It doesn't labour

:27:14. > :27:18.your breathing. The other models that are available, don't have the

:27:19. > :27:22.plastic sheeting in front, it is the meshing, but what happens within the

:27:23. > :27:25.media. Can I take this off? I'm happy to continue doing the

:27:26. > :27:30.interview with it on to be honest, it doesn't bother me. Keep it on for

:27:31. > :27:34.a second. Sure. If you were lying face down and struggling with a

:27:35. > :27:38.until of officers who were trying to arrest you and you were having

:27:39. > :27:42.handcuffs on the back, there is limited capability for you to move

:27:43. > :27:45.your head, isn't there? Without a doubt, but it depends how violently

:27:46. > :27:49.that person is struggling. We have got to remember in order to get that

:27:50. > :27:55.person from the ground to the floor, and transport them, we are going to

:27:56. > :28:00.be going near to their face, pucking them up, sitting with a suspect in a

:28:01. > :28:05.vehicle, we are going to be observing them at all times and be

:28:06. > :28:09.in close proximity to their face. You can clearly see that you can

:28:10. > :28:13.breathe through that. Breathing is not necessarily the issue. The issue

:28:14. > :28:18.is that it is very different putting on one of these hoods in the

:28:19. > :28:22.relative serenity of a television studio as compared to as you say...

:28:23. > :28:30.If breathe something not the I shall urks what is it then? Breathing is

:28:31. > :28:36.an issue. Asphyxia is suffocating? Yes. That would happen without a

:28:37. > :28:39.spit guard? It would, but it would be more difficult to see that

:28:40. > :28:45.happening and to respond quickly enough with a spit hood being put

:28:46. > :28:50.on. But if the individual was in trouble, they would be speaking, you

:28:51. > :28:53.would hear it? Well, no, because you're suffocating. Do you accept

:28:54. > :28:59.that? It is more difficult to see your face when that is on? Part of

:29:00. > :29:04.the training that officers receive in the use of spit guards is that

:29:05. > :29:08.they are taught to observe the person at all times. Of course, but

:29:09. > :29:11.it is harder to see when that's on your face. I appreciate that, but

:29:12. > :29:15.officers are monitoring someone when they are wearing one or not wearing

:29:16. > :29:20.one as closely as possible and officers are acutely aware of

:29:21. > :29:25.positional asphyxia, particularly around the positioning of limbs on

:29:26. > :29:30.people who have been detained to prevent this specific purpose and we

:29:31. > :29:36.try where possible to keep people on the ground for the least amount of

:29:37. > :29:38.time to prevent this. There are lots of caveats, if possible, we're

:29:39. > :29:41.trained to observe as much as possible. You can see how something

:29:42. > :29:46.might go wrong? I appreciate that. But we've got to remember as well,

:29:47. > :29:53.officers are out there, trying to restrain someone... But... Who is

:29:54. > :29:57.violently struggling. No. No, I accept that and everybody knows

:29:58. > :30:01.that, but it is whether it is morally right to use it on someone

:30:02. > :30:05.who is under 17? I wouldn't have a problem using it on someone under

:30:06. > :30:09.17. Throughout my service, I have been spat at probably five times and

:30:10. > :30:16.four of those times were people under 17 and one of those times was

:30:17. > :30:20.a female. So, the risk facing me of being assaulted and let's not

:30:21. > :30:24.forget, spitting is an assault and we are spitting at police officers

:30:25. > :30:30.and that makes it an assault on society as far as I'm concerned.

:30:31. > :30:33.Officers don't come into work to be treated in that way, I'm sure you

:30:34. > :30:38.wouldn't want to be spat in your face. The idea behind the guard, on

:30:39. > :30:43.the majority of cases they are only applied once the person has spat.

:30:44. > :30:56.Not all of them. Why not? I gave an example. I had a suspect in a van

:30:57. > :31:01.with me and the suspect said, as soon as I get out, I will spit in

:31:02. > :31:04.your face, and I said, I have now been made aware of his intentions,

:31:05. > :31:11.and he started clearing the throat so he was able to get enough phlegm

:31:12. > :31:15.in his mouth to do that. I will show the clip again of the person who had

:31:16. > :31:21.a spit God put on them, it looks like it is on the Underground. It's

:31:22. > :31:28.a different atmosphere, have a look at this.

:31:29. > :31:36.He is my boyfriend, 18 years old. Keep moving, please.

:31:37. > :31:46.Please, please, please. What the hell are you doing? Stop that. Stop

:31:47. > :31:55.it. Does that look barbaric? No. Having

:31:56. > :31:58.dealt with a number of incidents myself, it is easy to watch five

:31:59. > :32:05.seconds of footage and make a judgment. We need to know more about

:32:06. > :32:11.the situation, what information the officers were given, why they were

:32:12. > :32:18.responding, what the threat was perceived, and there are a number of

:32:19. > :32:22.questions. That case is live, subject to an investigation, so it

:32:23. > :32:27.would be improper for me to comment. What would you suggest instead of

:32:28. > :32:32.one of these herbs to protect officers from being spat at? There

:32:33. > :32:38.are other restraints that officers have. Forms of Holt, holding

:32:39. > :32:43.somebody in a way that is safe. It does not stop them spitting. It

:32:44. > :32:49.stops them suffering the spit, because of where they are standing.

:32:50. > :32:52.Let's take this. There is a risk that a suspect may head-butt

:32:53. > :32:57.somebody, but nobody suggests they should have neck braces. It is the

:32:58. > :33:00.same thing, there are restraints available, they can use reasonable

:33:01. > :33:04.force Intel defence or defence of others. These codes are not

:33:05. > :33:11.reasonable. It is not reasonable on a child. The police officer will be

:33:12. > :33:19.well built, fully trained in self defence, a child is not. That

:33:20. > :33:23.disparity in size is concerning. Even if we are not talking about

:33:24. > :33:27.children, police officers have a range of options available to them,

:33:28. > :33:33.and that is why the majority of forces do not roll these out. They

:33:34. > :33:38.are dangerous, barbaric and cruel. I disagree entirely. The assumption

:33:39. > :33:43.that police officers are big and burly draws the same assumption that

:33:44. > :33:48.all surgeons are men. 28% of the police force is female, the majority

:33:49. > :33:55.of the time it will be females having to deal with a burly

:33:56. > :33:59.17-year-old male. We so have a number of officers involved in a

:34:00. > :34:04.restrained. We are employing more physical restraint. We are talking

:34:05. > :34:08.about ensuring somebody is safely transported from the point of arrest

:34:09. > :34:11.to the point of custody. No police officer was the death of a child on

:34:12. > :34:17.their hands. No child deserves to be treated... I don't understand why

:34:18. > :34:21.the Police Federation is lobbying for something that places its

:34:22. > :34:27.members at that risk. We don't think that is the case. What places

:34:28. > :34:34.members at risk is going to work and being assaulted. In the Metropolitan

:34:35. > :34:39.last year, 900 officers were spat at. That is a hell of a lot. If we

:34:40. > :34:42.extrapolate those numbers nationally, we are looking at seven

:34:43. > :34:49.officers being assaulted by spitting a day, 40 why any other means. We

:34:50. > :34:52.are out there to protect our officers, if we don't, we will not

:34:53. > :34:59.have people looking after the members of the public. Let me read

:35:00. > :35:02.some messages. Johnny says, I am a serving police Sergeant, whilst I

:35:03. > :35:07.don't know the figures, there has been a big increase in the number of

:35:08. > :35:11.all ages spitting at and into the faces of police officers. The only

:35:12. > :35:15.other option is a physical hold and restraint on the head of the person

:35:16. > :35:19.who is spitting, which can cause injury to the detainee and the

:35:20. > :35:23.officers. The hood is the best way of stopping individuals spitting at

:35:24. > :35:30.those trying to protect the community. Essentially, the hold

:35:31. > :35:37.will be used anyway. There is no dispute about that. These hoods are

:35:38. > :35:44.used in conjunction. Other forms of restraint or proportionate, the

:35:45. > :35:49.juice of a hood in addition places that Persian at unacceptable risk of

:35:50. > :35:53.death or serious injury. Another one, as a former officer, I was

:35:54. > :35:58.handcuffed to the prison for several hours, the prisoners spat at me

:35:59. > :36:01.repeatedly. I wish in that case I had had a hood. Ian said, who knew

:36:02. > :36:12.the officers were experts in asphyxiation? The police should not

:36:13. > :36:16.have to put up with this. Anna says, hoods barbaric and unnecessary.

:36:17. > :36:20.Gordon says, spitting is the most reports of thing for somebody to do,

:36:21. > :36:21.it seems to be on the increase, we need to ensure we do not tolerated.

:36:22. > :36:29.Thank you. Still to come, could the routine use

:36:30. > :36:32.of caesarean section be having Scientists claim the surgery

:36:33. > :36:36.is enabling women with a narrow pelvic opening to survive childbirth

:36:37. > :36:38.and pass their genes Lady Gaga has revealed she suffers

:36:39. > :36:41.from post-traumatic stress disorder We'll be speaking to our

:36:42. > :36:51.entertainment reporter. With the news, here's Annita

:36:52. > :37:03.in the BBC Newsroom. Another football club has confirmed

:37:04. > :37:07.it is looking into child abuse claims about one of its employees.

:37:08. > :37:11.QPR will cooperate in any investigation.

:37:12. > :37:12.Meanwhile, lawyers from the Offside Trust,

:37:13. > :37:14.launched yesterday to support football players who are victims

:37:15. > :37:17.of abuse, say they have evidence of more sex-abuse

:37:18. > :37:21.They claim that "a number of clubs" have used gagging orders on players

:37:22. > :37:25.And they say big football figures still in the game are named

:37:26. > :37:31.A study suggests that the regular use of caesarean sections is having

:37:32. > :37:36.Scientists at the University of Vienna say women with a narrow

:37:37. > :37:39.pelvis, who would historically have died during childbirth,

:37:40. > :37:42.are now surviving to pass on the genes of their skeletal

:37:43. > :37:48.The Government is to make Network Rail share control of track

:37:49. > :37:51.maintenance in England with the private train-operating

:37:52. > :37:54.companies, in what's being seen as the biggest shakeup of the rail

:37:55. > :37:57.The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling says that Network Rail

:37:58. > :38:00.and the train operators should be able to work together to resolve

:38:01. > :38:03.problems more effectively, but unions have warned that safety

:38:04. > :38:11.Lawyers representing the team leading the legal fight

:38:12. > :38:13.against the Prime Minister's Brexit strategy will begin

:38:14. > :38:16.The landmark Supreme Court hearing begins hearing a second day

:38:17. > :38:22.Yesterday, Government lawyers said the ministers had the power

:38:23. > :38:27.The High Court ruled against the Government in November

:38:28. > :38:36.and said Parliament should be consulted first.

:38:37. > :38:40.The England coach Trevor Bayliss says Alastair Cook is "up

:38:41. > :38:43.for the fight" and will continue to lead England as Test captain

:38:44. > :38:47.Last month, Cook hinted that he may step down after the current tour

:38:48. > :38:50.of India but Bayliss says he was surprised by that

:38:51. > :38:55.and the pair are already working towards the trip to Australia.

:38:56. > :38:57.Reports in America suggest that Thomas Bjorn will be named

:38:58. > :39:01.Europe have lifted the trophy on the three occasions that

:39:02. > :39:06.He's also been an assistant captain four times.

:39:07. > :39:08.Hull City remain in the Premier League's bottom

:39:09. > :39:11.three after they lost 1-0 at Middlesbrough last night.

:39:12. > :39:13.Gaston Ramirez scored the only goal of the game just

:39:14. > :39:21.And, Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones has been voted BBC Wales'

:39:22. > :39:26.Jones won gold in Rio this summer, becoming the first Welsh woman

:39:27. > :39:29.to successfully defend an Olympic title.

:39:30. > :39:31.She also won the European crown earlier in the year.

:39:32. > :39:39.It's the second time she's been given the honour.

:39:40. > :39:42.The most important constitutional case in decades is being debated

:39:43. > :39:48.The Government wants the right to launch the process of leaving

:39:49. > :39:52.the European Union and triggering Brexit without a parliamentary vote.

:39:53. > :39:55.Today is the second of four days of debate, with the decision

:39:56. > :40:00.It's been described by one leading Breixteer, Iain Duncan Smith,

:40:01. > :40:12.as "like watching paint dry", but let's watch a little of it.

:40:13. > :40:17.Parliament's choice as to how to give its permission and the extent

:40:18. > :40:20.to which it wants to get involved. If you do the contrast in terms of

:40:21. > :40:30.symmetry between then and now, it might be thought that the giving of

:40:31. > :40:39.article 50 was by primary legislation, the 2015 act. We submit

:40:40. > :40:47.there is real symmetry there. Does that not beg the question as to

:40:48. > :40:50.whether the 2015 act expected Parliamentary consideration of the

:40:51. > :40:58.position in the light of the results of the referendum? On any view, the

:40:59. > :41:03.2015 act... My case is the 2015 act involved Parliament deciding to put

:41:04. > :41:09.the final decision to the people, the in/ out question, and we submit

:41:10. > :41:14.that whether it said things or did not say things, it still carries

:41:15. > :41:18.real constitutional significance as having been passed at a point in

:41:19. > :41:25.time when they knew full well that the only way of achieving one of the

:41:26. > :41:29.things, one of the possibilities on the binary question, was to give

:41:30. > :41:33.article 50 notice. That was the only way in which withdrawal could be

:41:34. > :41:37.affected. You had to take a step on the international plane. You would

:41:38. > :41:41.have to give article 50 notice, that is the mandated process. The

:41:42. > :41:47.referendum does not say anything about when the notice should be

:41:48. > :41:52.given. No, and it might be thought not to do so deliberately, that is

:41:53. > :41:56.one of the paragon of decisions which would involve the exercise of

:41:57. > :42:00.expert and experienced judgment from those who would thereafter have the

:42:01. > :42:03.courage of the negotiations. That is the political debate that has been

:42:04. > :42:11.raging for the last few weeks and months. Is it realistic to regard an

:42:12. > :42:21.Article 50 notice as an entirely limited notification that the UK is

:42:22. > :42:27.going to withdraw? Because the scheme of Article 50 contemplates

:42:28. > :42:32.that that will lead to the very least a framework agreement as to

:42:33. > :42:41.the future. Is it realistic to suppose that the notice will give no

:42:42. > :42:44.clue as to what the nature of the direction intended is, what the

:42:45. > :42:50.nature of the agreement wished for his? It will not delve into what the

:42:51. > :42:54.possible agreement might look like, it won't delve into how the

:42:55. > :43:02.Government might choose to negotiate. All parties are

:43:03. > :43:10.proceeding... It will just comply with article 50. And everything else

:43:11. > :43:16.occurs subsequently? Yes. That flows into the point that is made on the

:43:17. > :43:21.other side, which is to accept that if the supreme court decides against

:43:22. > :43:23.it, the solution is a one line act. If you want to continue

:43:24. > :43:25.watching that, switch to the BBC News channel,

:43:26. > :43:38.or you can find it The chief Brexit negotiator is

:43:39. > :43:42.speaking live in Brussels, he has already said the work will be

:43:43. > :43:50.legally compensated and politically sensitive.

:43:51. > :44:00.TRANSLATION: The ECB, the European investment bank, Europol and the

:44:01. > :44:05.European Court of Justice. I will be meeting those in charge of the

:44:06. > :44:09.committee of the regions and the European economic and social

:44:10. > :44:22.committee in the next few weeks. For all of these reasons, I am sure that

:44:23. > :44:31.when the European union receives notification from the UK, it will be

:44:32. > :44:36.ready. Time will be short. It is clear that a period for actual

:44:37. > :44:45.negotiations will be shorter than two years. At the beginning, the two

:44:46. > :44:51.years includes time for the European Council to set guidelines. For the

:44:52. > :45:00.Council to authorise negotiations based on the recommendation of the

:45:01. > :45:07.commission of what article 50 says. At the end, the agreement must be

:45:08. > :45:13.approved by the Council and European Parliament, finally the UK will have

:45:14. > :45:20.to approve the agreement. All within the two-year period.

:45:21. > :45:22.He is the European Commission's chief Brexit negotiator.

:45:23. > :45:24.We speak to Fiona De Londras, Professor of global legal studies

:45:25. > :45:27.at Birmingham Law School and an expert in constitutional

:45:28. > :45:29.and European law, and Chantal-Aimee Doerries QC,

:45:30. > :45:32.chairman of the Bar Council, head of all barristers

:45:33. > :45:50.What are they debating? The central case that the Government is arguing

:45:51. > :45:57.that it is entitled to trigger Article 50 to take the UK out of the

:45:58. > :45:59.European Union and various citizens, two citizens, started proceedings

:46:00. > :46:03.arguing that this is a matter for Parliament. In other words

:46:04. > :46:08.Parliament has to decide whether or not to trigger Article 50. The real

:46:09. > :46:11.issue around this is the scope of the royal prerogative which is

:46:12. > :46:17.normally an issue that deals with Foreign Affairs and so the question

:46:18. > :46:20.here is, where we're looking at a treaty, Article 50 arises in

:46:21. > :46:24.relation to a treaty, is there something the executive or the Prime

:46:25. > :46:28.Minister can act on or does she in fact need Parliament to have a

:46:29. > :46:37.debate and an Act to allow her to do that? Domestic rights came in

:46:38. > :46:40.through the European Communities Act. Why is that relevant and why

:46:41. > :46:45.might it be a problem for the Government? Well, the relevance

:46:46. > :46:50.according to the people who are trying to ensure there would be

:46:51. > :46:54.Parliamentary consent is to say that the European Union is not just any

:46:55. > :46:58.international organisation, the treaties here are not just any other

:46:59. > :47:03.set of treaties because of their domestic effect, it would be

:47:04. > :47:08.necessary for Parliament to be the entity that would consent to

:47:09. > :47:11.beginning this process which it is said will inevitably lead to the

:47:12. > :47:14.loss of these rights which are properly seen as domestic as well as

:47:15. > :47:21.international. OK. I mean, under our constitution

:47:22. > :47:25.Parliament is the one that's sovereign and has to pass

:47:26. > :47:30.legislation, but it is the Government that's in charge with the

:47:31. > :47:32.foreign treaties, isn't leaving the EU a foreign treaty? That's the

:47:33. > :47:36.issue for the Supreme Court. If we listen to yesterday's sub mirks made

:47:37. > :47:41.to the court, the central question is whether the rights are that the

:47:42. > :47:46.citizens benefit, whether they were implemented through the treaties or

:47:47. > :47:49.whether the Act which Parliament passed provided or gave people those

:47:50. > :47:51.rights and it is not a straightforward question as we can

:47:52. > :47:57.see from the four days that have been set aside to look at this.

:47:58. > :48:00.Fiona, in terms of the process, the court is looking at two things,

:48:01. > :48:04.whether the process to start leaving the European Union needs to be

:48:05. > :48:09.passed by MPs and also if the devolved Parliament should have a

:48:10. > :48:12.say. Yes, so if the court decides that Parliament should consent

:48:13. > :48:16.before Article 50 can be triggered then a second and extremely

:48:17. > :48:20.complicated set of questions arises as to whether or not the devolved

:48:21. > :48:27.Parliaments and perhaps particularly the Scottish Parliament would have

:48:28. > :48:31.to consent to Westminster passing legislation that would allow for

:48:32. > :48:37.Article 50 to be triggered. So there is a second and very complicated set

:48:38. > :48:41.of issues around Scotland and also a further set of issues arising around

:48:42. > :48:45.Northern Ireland which are slightly dimp, but also complicated. OK,

:48:46. > :48:49.well, let's talk about devolution, what happens if the Supreme Court

:48:50. > :48:52.decides Scottish Parliament should have a say in Article 50 and

:48:53. > :48:55.Northern Ireland as well as Westminster?

:48:56. > :49:00.Well, that's the very tricky question, isn't it? It is one that's

:49:01. > :49:04.really arisen at this level at the Supreme Court. At its most extreme

:49:05. > :49:08.if the Supreme Court were to conclude that, then one would

:49:09. > :49:14.imagine that we would have to have debates in those various devolved

:49:15. > :49:17.parliaments on this issue before Westminster were able, itself, to

:49:18. > :49:21.pass an Act. I have to say that would be quite an extreme position

:49:22. > :49:24.and perhaps really flags or highlights some of the challenges

:49:25. > :49:26.around devolution that perhaps haven't historically really been

:49:27. > :49:31.discussed and what's interesting about this case, it is one of the

:49:32. > :49:36.first where the Supreme Court really has had to look at these issues and

:49:37. > :49:39.detail. Can I ask you about the independence of the judiciary, it

:49:40. > :49:46.has been questioned in the run up to this. How do the judges ensure that

:49:47. > :49:50.this is simply about the legalities, the legal side of this and not about

:49:51. > :49:56.their own personal views or politics or opinions leaking through? Well,

:49:57. > :49:59.their training is such, that's how they have been trained to work...

:50:00. > :50:04.But they are human beings? They are, indeed. If you are looking at the

:50:05. > :50:07.underlying course and we saw in the divisional court and the Supreme

:50:08. > :50:10.Court, the judges have been at pains to make clear that this is not a

:50:11. > :50:14.political decision. It is one that will affect all of us and it will

:50:15. > :50:17.affect what Parliament or the Government is able to do, but at the

:50:18. > :50:22.end of the day, the question they're being asked to determine is a very

:50:23. > :50:25.narrow one and actually the independence of our judiciary is

:50:26. > :50:29.right at the heart of our justice system. It is important not only for

:50:30. > :50:32.these difficult constitutional questions about citizens,

:50:33. > :50:36.Government, Government and the executive, but it is also important

:50:37. > :50:39.in every day life, where you may have disputes between family members

:50:40. > :50:42.and ensuring that we are able to respect our judiciary and that we

:50:43. > :50:47.have faith in them in being able to do this job. I've travelled around

:50:48. > :50:51.the world in the job that I have this year and one of the things

:50:52. > :50:55.that's been really striking is that our judiciary is particularly

:50:56. > :50:59.respected overseas for their ability to be independent. So to remove

:51:00. > :51:03.themselves from any personal concerns they may have and to rule

:51:04. > :51:03.as it is said without fear or favour.

:51:04. > :51:08.Thank you very much. Thank you. And a reminder, if you want

:51:09. > :51:11.to continue watching live coverage of the Supreme Court case,

:51:12. > :51:14.you can watch it on the BBC News website, by going

:51:15. > :51:17.to bbc.co.uk/Brexit. Still to come, Lady Gaga has

:51:18. > :51:19.revealed she suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder

:51:20. > :51:22.since being raped at the age of 19. We're getting all the details

:51:23. > :51:27.from our correspondent. Could the routine use

:51:28. > :51:29.of caesarean section be having A study says that women

:51:30. > :51:33.with a narrow pelvis, who would historically have died

:51:34. > :51:36.giving birth, will nowadays survive and pass those skeletal genes

:51:37. > :51:41.on to their daughters. Let's get a bit more insight

:51:42. > :51:47.into this research assistant professor Philipp Mitteroecker

:51:48. > :51:49.was a part of the research team In London, we're joined

:51:50. > :51:54.by Dr Daghni Rajasingam, a spokesperson for the Royal College

:51:55. > :51:57.of Obstetricians and a consultant obstetrician

:51:58. > :52:08.at St Thomas Hospital in London. Thank you very much for talking to

:52:09. > :52:17.us. Professor first of all, tell us more about the research. We

:52:18. > :52:21.developed a mathematical model that shows how Caesarean sections

:52:22. > :52:28.influenced evolution in our modern society now a days. And the

:52:29. > :52:32.intuition around that is around for a while so that's not maybe not a

:52:33. > :52:41.big surprise, but we are the first one to actually model that and to

:52:42. > :52:46.predict figures how this effect was and we predicted that Caesarean

:52:47. > :52:53.sections had left an increase of 10% to 20% in the initial rate of foetal

:52:54. > :52:59.pelvic mismatch which means the baby doesn't fit through the maternal

:53:00. > :53:03.birth canal. D I wonder how you react to this research? Good

:53:04. > :53:08.morning. You mentioned the routine use of Caesarean sections, we don't

:53:09. > :53:12.routinely do Caesarean sections. The important thing to remember, there

:53:13. > :53:16.are a variety of reasons why we may choose to do a Caesarean section in

:53:17. > :53:21.consultation with the woman and some of these are occasionally

:53:22. > :53:27.life-saving. Either for the mother or for the baby so the routine use

:53:28. > :53:31.of Caesarean Serks sections is something not used in the UK and we

:53:32. > :53:35.can talk about the reasons why women need Caesarean sections and an

:53:36. > :53:38.important issue of why Caesarean section rates are increasing

:53:39. > :53:42.globally and certainly increasing faster in certain countries.

:53:43. > :53:46.We will talk about that in a second. I wonder professor what you think

:53:47. > :53:52.the implications of your research are? I would like it mention that

:53:53. > :53:57.our study was not meant to be critical about C-sections of or

:53:58. > :54:01.modern medicine in general. My own children had to be delivered by

:54:02. > :54:05.Caesarean section and I was happy that this opportunity was there.

:54:06. > :54:11.Second, our predictions are about the actual rates of foetal pelvic

:54:12. > :54:16.disproportion, not about Caesarean section rates. The rate of Caesarean

:54:17. > :54:22.sections have increased many more times that the proportion rates for

:54:23. > :54:28.other than medical reasons and it is also that the Caesarean sections are

:54:29. > :54:33.those that save the life of the mother and the baby. Those other

:54:34. > :54:36.Caesarean sections did not affect evolution because those babies most

:54:37. > :54:41.likely would have been born anyway. Right. I understand your point about

:54:42. > :54:46.you don't want people to see this as criticism of C-sections. Are you

:54:47. > :54:52.hoping the research might inform debate and discussion around birth

:54:53. > :54:55.methods? Yes. I mean, so, our study doesn't really see anything about

:54:56. > :55:01.whether one should do C-section or not. It shows that this practise,

:55:02. > :55:05.which of course is life-saving fortunately, has been effect on the

:55:06. > :55:12.evolution and it shows also that, I mean, the large discussion about

:55:13. > :55:17.C-sections and the increase in C-sections often this literature

:55:18. > :55:20.assumes that the foetal pelvic proportion stayed constant, but we

:55:21. > :55:24.showed that it didn't. It did evolve in fact. I detect from you doctor

:55:25. > :55:29.that you are worried that this is going to be seen as a criticism and

:55:30. > :55:33.that you feel you have to adopt a defensive position? No, I don't

:55:34. > :55:38.think we have to be defensive because I think most obstetricians

:55:39. > :55:40.and most units do Caesarean sections when they are required and when they

:55:41. > :55:44.are appropriate. What is important to take into the evolution that we

:55:45. > :55:51.have been discussing is that things like diabetes are much, much more

:55:52. > :55:54.common at yawninger age. We see many more women of reproductive age that

:55:55. > :56:00.have diabetes. That has consequences as to whether or not they may need

:56:01. > :56:04.an Caesarean section. Rates of obesity is increasing. More and more

:56:05. > :56:07.women have a higher Body Mass Index and this has an impact on the

:56:08. > :56:10.Caesarean section rates. It is really usele to talk about Caesarean

:56:11. > :56:15.sections. It is really useful to talk about the mode of delivery for

:56:16. > :56:20.populations, but I think that the very important fact is that women

:56:21. > :56:26.can try and reduce the risk of Caesarean section, increase the

:56:27. > :56:30.chances of a really good pregnancy outcome by prepregnancy planning,

:56:31. > :56:34.being as fit as you can be, being as close to your ideal body weight, if

:56:35. > :56:37.you have medical conditions talking to your doctors or healthcare

:56:38. > :56:40.professionals about it, all of those are really important things. Thank

:56:41. > :56:43.you very much. Thank you both of you.

:56:44. > :56:46.The pop star, Lady Gaga, has revealed that she has suffered

:56:47. > :56:48.from post-traumatic stress disorder, since she was raped

:56:49. > :56:50.Our reporter Chi Chi Izundu can tell us more.

:56:51. > :56:56.Well, she revealed this yesterday whilst she was visiting some LGBT

:56:57. > :57:00.young people, homeless people at a shelter in the States. She actually

:57:01. > :57:06.talked about it and said it is the first time she has ever revealed

:57:07. > :57:07.that she suffers from PDST in an interview with the Today programme

:57:08. > :57:13.on NBC. I've never told anyone that

:57:14. > :57:16.before so here we are. But the kindness that's been

:57:17. > :57:19.shown to me by doctors as well as my family and my friends,

:57:20. > :57:26.it has really saved my life. This is the first time she talked

:57:27. > :57:31.about it. Like you said, she talked about rape that she was raped when

:57:32. > :57:34.she was 19 years of age. She says it was a man 20 years her senior. She

:57:35. > :57:43.only revealed that information two years ago and she was nominated for

:57:44. > :57:47.an Oscar this year, for her song Til It Happens to you which was about

:57:48. > :57:50.campus rates. She is coming out about the issues which are important

:57:51. > :57:55.and will help young people talk about stuff. Thank you very much.

:57:56. > :58:03.Some messages on the subject of spit hoods or spit guards. We were

:58:04. > :58:09.discussing those earlier. The number of under 17s having spit guards

:58:10. > :58:12.placed on their heads has increased. "I can understand that restraining

:58:13. > :58:17.officers being concerned about being spat at because I have experienced

:58:18. > :58:19.it a number of times. I support their use." That's from Jan. Thank

:58:20. > :58:24.you. Tomorrow, more on abuse in football

:58:25. > :58:27.and we follow the former boxing promoter Kelly Malonie as she takes

:58:28. > :58:29.some of her old clothes I went up to her

:58:30. > :58:34.at the end of the class - she said, "Where did you copy

:58:35. > :58:37.this essay?" Because she couldn't believe

:58:38. > :58:40.that a little chubby black girl with her pebble lenses

:58:41. > :58:44.could write an essay like that.