24/01/2017

:00:07. > :00:07.Hello, it's Tuesday, it's nine o'clock.

:00:08. > :00:10.I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

:00:11. > :00:14.In exactly half an hour's time, the highest court in the land

:00:15. > :00:17.will rule on whether Parliament or the PM is in control of the UK's

:00:18. > :00:31.I will be reporting live problem the Supreme Court, we will bring you the

:00:32. > :00:33.decision as it happens, and all the reaction from the court.

:00:34. > :00:35.We'll bring you that decision live as it happens,

:00:36. > :00:38.and throughout the programme we'll bring you plenty of reaction

:00:39. > :00:46.I am a professor of public law, I am going to explain the meaning of the

:00:47. > :00:47.judgment, not about whether we leave, about how we leave the

:00:48. > :00:49.European Union. Plus, we'll bring you reaction

:00:50. > :00:51.from senior politicians, and our audience of voters

:00:52. > :00:59.are here to give their Judges are not hell-bent on

:01:00. > :01:03.dismissing the views of British people, they just want to ensure it

:01:04. > :01:08.is carried out with the correct mandate. It is correct that judges

:01:09. > :01:13.clarify the detail of the law, citizens have a right to clarify

:01:14. > :01:17.important questions. The judges have no right to interfere with the

:01:18. > :01:20.democratic wishes of the electorate, let's stop wasting time and get on

:01:21. > :01:22.to repealing the European Community act.

:01:23. > :01:25.As always, really keen to hear from you - do get in touch

:01:26. > :01:46.Hello, welcome to the programme. We're live until 11.

:01:47. > :01:48.As you'd expect, the programme will be dominated by reaction

:01:49. > :01:50.to that Supreme Court ruling, due in just under

:01:51. > :01:54.As always, do get in touch- use #VictoriaLIVE,

:01:55. > :01:57.and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

:01:58. > :02:00.Our top story today - in half an hour's time,

:02:01. > :02:02.the Supreme Court will deliver its ruling on whether the Prime

:02:03. > :02:06.before she can start the process of leaving the EU.

:02:07. > :02:08.The long-awaited judgment will decide how the EU's Article 50

:02:09. > :02:16.The Government argues that ministers have the power to do that,

:02:17. > :02:17.but opponents say they need Parliament's approval,

:02:18. > :02:26.The European Union ignites strong passions.

:02:27. > :02:31.Almost seven weeks ago, protesters gathered outside

:02:32. > :02:34.the Supreme Court as the 11 most senior judges in the

:02:35. > :02:41.Hour after hour of dense legal argument

:02:42. > :02:43.followed on the biggest question in politics -

:02:44. > :02:49.Is it behind the door here in Downing Street?

:02:50. > :03:00.The Prime Minister says she can start the UK's divorce from the EU

:03:01. > :03:03.herself, but campaigners led by the businesswoman Gina Miller,

:03:04. > :03:07.says MPs and peers have to have a say first.

:03:08. > :03:10.This morning, we will find out who has won.

:03:11. > :03:12.If the Government loses, they will also lose complete control

:03:13. > :03:14.of the timetable for starting the process

:03:15. > :03:18.It will have to rush its plan through Parliament

:03:19. > :03:25.Today is not about whether Brexit should or will happen

:03:26. > :03:32.That is why it matters, and that is why there

:03:33. > :03:40.was a lot of interest here in what the judges had to say.

:03:41. > :03:47.Our correspondent Ben Brown is at the Supreme Court.

:03:48. > :03:53.morning, Ben! Good morning, Victoria, this

:03:54. > :03:57.judgment, whichever way it goes at night column 30, is going to make

:03:58. > :04:03.legal, constitutional and political history. -- at 9:30. It will have

:04:04. > :04:08.huge obligations for the way the Brexit processes implement, is it

:04:09. > :04:12.Parliament that triggers Article 50, or is it the Government through its

:04:13. > :04:17.prerogative powers? Let's just tell you that we can see Gina Miller, the

:04:18. > :04:21.businesswoman who brought this case originally, Gina Miller, the

:04:22. > :04:28.investment fund manager who brought the case. And the Government

:04:29. > :04:33.appealed against her victory in the High Court in November and brought

:04:34. > :04:38.it here to the Supreme Court. Gina Miller says she has had death

:04:39. > :04:43.threats, threats to her business interests, threats to boycott her

:04:44. > :04:51.business as well, because of this case that she has brought. And she

:04:52. > :04:55.will be hoping that the 11 Supreme Court Justices will rule in her

:04:56. > :05:00.favour and against the Government, and will say that it is Parliament

:05:01. > :05:04.that is sovereign, and it is Parliament that has to trigger

:05:05. > :05:09.Article 50. Let's talk to Clive Coleman, our legal affairs

:05:10. > :05:12.correspondent, the 11 Supreme Court justices have been deliberating over

:05:13. > :05:18.Christmas and the New Year, and we are going to hear their judgment at

:05:19. > :05:22.half past nine. Let's not underplay this, this is quite simply the

:05:23. > :05:25.biggest case about where power lies in our constitution as between

:05:26. > :05:29.ministers on the one hand and Parliament on the other, this is a

:05:30. > :05:35.case that will define the limits of executive power of the government,

:05:36. > :05:38.which wants to trigger Article 50 using these ancient powers, these

:05:39. > :05:41.prerogative powers, they say they can do that because, effectively,

:05:42. > :05:45.they are working with an international treaty that is an area

:05:46. > :05:50.where the prerogative can legitimately be used. Gina Miller

:05:51. > :05:54.says, no, what is at stake here is rights enjoyed by you and I,

:05:55. > :05:59.citizens of the UK that are enshrined in an act of Parliament,

:06:00. > :06:03.the 1972 European Communities Act, and you cannot reach in with the

:06:04. > :06:07.prerogative and rip those out. So this case is, as you say,

:06:08. > :06:12.constitutionally of enormous significance, we are going to hear

:06:13. > :06:15.the ruling, it will come through the president of the court, Lord

:06:16. > :06:19.Neuberger, who will come into court with the other justices, and they

:06:20. > :06:24.will take about five minutes to give a summary of the ruling. We will get

:06:25. > :06:28.a full judgment to pick over later in the day. 11 Supreme Court

:06:29. > :06:34.justices, it is a bit like a jury, they could be a majority verdict, it

:06:35. > :06:41.could be something like 7-4. Absolutely, and Lord Neuberger will

:06:42. > :06:46.tell us any dissenting judgments are from, but it is historic - 11

:06:47. > :06:50.justices have never sat before, and not just since the Supreme Court was

:06:51. > :06:54.established in 2009. Its predecessor, the judicial committee

:06:55. > :07:04.of the House of Lords, which used to sit in Parliament, going back to the

:07:05. > :07:09.19 -- 19th century, they never sat in that number, so this is really

:07:10. > :07:12.huge. Clive, thank you very much indeed. We will get their judgment

:07:13. > :07:16.at half past nine. The Prime Minister, Theresa May, just up the

:07:17. > :07:21.road in Downing Street, will be getting a sneak preview. We gather

:07:22. > :07:23.she will hear the judgment at 9:15. That is it from me for now.

:07:24. > :07:32.So a few minutes for the Prime Minister to find out, 23 minutes for

:07:33. > :07:34.the rest of us, we will bring you the ruling live on BBC News. Joanna

:07:35. > :07:38.has the rest of the morning's news. President Trump has signed an order

:07:39. > :07:40.to formally withdraw America fulfilling one of

:07:41. > :07:43.his campaign pledges. The trade deal involving

:07:44. > :07:45.a dozen countries President Trump has also cut funding

:07:46. > :07:48.for international groups and has frozen the hiring

:07:49. > :07:54.of some federal workers. Motorists caught driving

:07:55. > :07:56.well above the speed limit will face bigger fines

:07:57. > :07:58.after a review of the sentencing guidelines

:07:59. > :08:00.for courts in England and Wales. to impose much tougher

:08:01. > :08:04.penalties on drivers, and are intended to make sure

:08:05. > :08:07.the punishment for speeding is a lot higher

:08:08. > :08:21.for the worst offenders. after a 15-year-old boy was

:08:22. > :08:25.stabbed in north-west London. He was attacked on a street

:08:26. > :08:27.in Willesden yesterday. Ambulance crews treated

:08:28. > :08:29.the boy at the scene and took him to hospital,

:08:30. > :08:31.where he was later pronounced dead. Detectives have yet

:08:32. > :08:33.to release his name, Heathrow Airport says 100 flights

:08:34. > :08:37.have been cancelled because freezing fog in south-east England

:08:38. > :08:41.has again reduced visibility. The airport has apologised to those

:08:42. > :08:44.affected and has advised passengers to check the status of their flight

:08:45. > :08:52.before travelling to the airport. Flood management in England

:08:53. > :08:54.and Wales is still fragmented, inefficient and ineffective,

:08:55. > :08:57.according to a group of MPs. Members of the Commons Environment

:08:58. > :09:00.Committee have criticised two months after

:09:01. > :09:05.they recommended major reform. The Government says its plans

:09:06. > :09:10.will help protect 300,000 homes. The citizens of this country

:09:11. > :09:12.want to see the Government We've asked them questions.

:09:13. > :09:16.We've made some recommendations. It's the Government's

:09:17. > :09:19.responsibility to protect its citizens, and as far

:09:20. > :09:23.as we're concerned, and explaining how best

:09:24. > :09:30.it's going to do it. The nominations for

:09:31. > :09:31.this year's Academy Awards Critics have tipped

:09:32. > :09:35.the modern musical romance It's expected to face

:09:36. > :09:40.stiff competition from the domestic drama

:09:41. > :09:42.Manchester By The Sea a coming of age drama

:09:43. > :09:54.set in drug-torn Miami. That is a summary of the latest

:09:55. > :09:58.news, more at 9:30. We have voters from all over the UK

:09:59. > :10:02.here this morning, they will give their reaction to the Supreme Court

:10:03. > :10:09.ruling at 9:30. Wherever you are, get in touch, what do you think of

:10:10. > :10:13.the fact that 11 justices will make this decision as to whether it is

:10:14. > :10:17.the Prime Minister or Parliament who has the final say on triggering the

:10:18. > :10:28.process of leaving the European Union? Do get in touch in the usual

:10:29. > :10:32.ways. Reshmin has the sports news. Bernie Ecclestone, in charge of

:10:33. > :10:37.Formula One for nearly 40 years, has been removed from his post. He makes

:10:38. > :10:42.way following a ?6.4 billion takeover by US giant Liberty Media.

:10:43. > :10:46.Chase Carey, the new chief executive, has appointed the former

:10:47. > :10:50.supremo as a chairman and merit is, and honorary chairman and adviser to

:10:51. > :10:57.the board, but Bernie Ecclestone says he has no idea what the title

:10:58. > :11:01.means and insists he was forced out. Some of the tennis old guard

:11:02. > :11:04.enjoying a renaissance at the Australian Open.

:11:05. > :11:09.Yes, Venus Williams has booked a place in the semifinals, for the

:11:10. > :11:15.first time in 14 years, remarkable, rolling back the years. She beat

:11:16. > :11:20.Anastasia Pavlyuchenkova in straight sets. Venus has never won a title in

:11:21. > :11:28.Melbourne before, next up for her is Coco Vandeweghe. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga

:11:29. > :11:32.was beaten by Stan Wawrinka in straight sets. Roger Federer is in

:11:33. > :11:40.quarterfinal action today, up against the man who knocked out Andy

:11:41. > :11:44.Murray, Misha Zverev. Murray is likely not to play in Great

:11:45. > :11:48.Britain's Davis Cup tie next week against Canada, that news just in

:11:49. > :11:53.this morning. The Six Nations cakes off next month, a big name missing

:11:54. > :11:58.from the England team. Flanker James Haskell has not travelled with the

:11:59. > :12:02.squad to Portugal, he could miss the opener against France in February.

:12:03. > :12:06.He has spent the last six months on the sidelines with an injury, but

:12:07. > :12:18.despite returning to action for wasps, Wasps on Sunday, he will not

:12:19. > :12:25.train with the England squad, so still a lot of waiting to do. And

:12:26. > :12:29.Ryan Mason has responded well to surgery, what is the latest on his

:12:30. > :12:36.condition? That is absolutely right, he has responded well to surgery,

:12:37. > :12:39.the Hull City midfielder whose family have thanked well-wishers for

:12:40. > :12:43.their support after age attic 24 hours. He underwent surgery on

:12:44. > :12:48.Sunday after picking up a fractured skull at Stamford Bridge. He was

:12:49. > :12:51.injured in a clash of heads with defender Gary Cahill during the

:12:52. > :12:56.Premier League fixture. He was described as conscious, talking and

:12:57. > :13:00.in a stable condition yesterday, but he will be monitored in hospital

:13:01. > :13:05.over the coming days, so really positive news for Ryan Mason. Back

:13:06. > :13:12.with more sport in the next hour. Cheers, Reshmin, thank you. Viv

:13:13. > :13:19.says, Parliament has voted, what is the point in all of this today?!

:13:20. > :13:24.Another says, this is the democratic process, it is really simple to

:13:25. > :13:29.non-idiots. Roy says, and elected judges should not interfere. So who

:13:30. > :13:32.decides? That is the question, Prime Minister and Parliament?

:13:33. > :13:34.What is at stake is who controls the divorce

:13:35. > :13:36.proceedings with the EU - the triggering of what's

:13:37. > :13:47.known as Article 50, which begins the formal process

:13:48. > :13:54.The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out.

:13:55. > :13:59.has asked me to form a new government,

:14:00. > :14:34.and we're going to make a success of it.

:14:35. > :14:58.It's about our United Kingdom and all our futures.

:14:59. > :15:01.What I am proposing cannot mean membership of

:15:02. > :15:48.OK, so what could happen in the next 15 minutes?

:15:49. > :15:51.We can speak now to Professor Alison Young from Oxford University,

:15:52. > :15:54.Plus, a group of politicians from various parties.

:15:55. > :15:56.Theresa Villiers for the Conservatives,

:15:57. > :15:59.Labour's Owen Smith, who voted to remain.

:16:00. > :16:01.Ukip's Suzanne Evans, who voted Leave.

:16:02. > :16:07.Tom Brake for the Lib Dems, who voted Remain.

:16:08. > :16:14.And we've got an audience of voters from right across the UK.

:16:15. > :16:20.Alison Young, what do you expect to happen? That's the ten million

:16:21. > :16:25.dollar question. A chance to prove myself wrong in 15 minutes! My guess

:16:26. > :16:29.would be probably you need an Act of Parliament, but I don't think they

:16:30. > :16:33.will say that legally you have to consult the devolved governments as

:16:34. > :16:41.well. That would be my guess. So MPs will get a vote? Yes. It may not be

:16:42. > :16:44.11, but a majority. Exactly. Owen Smith it the Government loses and

:16:45. > :16:48.you and your colleagues get a vote, will you vote against triggering

:16:49. > :16:52.Article 50? Possibly. I'm going to try and amend the Bill because I

:16:53. > :16:56.think we will have a Bill. I think that's right in order to make sure

:16:57. > :16:59.that we've got a decent opportunity on behalf of the people we represent

:17:00. > :17:02.to scrutinise that Bill and crucially, in order to give us an

:17:03. > :17:07.opportunity at the end of that process in two or three years time

:17:08. > :17:13.when we've concluded negotiations to determine whether it is going to be

:17:14. > :17:18.good for Britain or bad. If your amendments fail and sources suggest

:17:19. > :17:24.the word of the Bill will be so tight that there won't be a chance

:17:25. > :17:29.for critics to amend it. If it is a Bill, it must be amendable. There

:17:30. > :17:37.can be new clauses tabled to any Bill even if it is a one clause

:17:38. > :17:42.Bill. Even if the Tories try and truncate scrutiny. They wanted to

:17:43. > :17:46.simply enact it for party political purposes, but if we get to that

:17:47. > :17:50.point, I will table amendments and others will table amendments and the

:17:51. > :17:52.liberals and the Labour frontbench will table amendments, we will try

:17:53. > :17:56.and hold the Government to account and make sure we can get the best

:17:57. > :18:00.for the British people. I don't feel if we are unable to get those

:18:01. > :18:06.amendments through in all conscience I can vote to trigger Article 50.

:18:07. > :18:13.What do you think of that, Suzanne Evans? In there has to be an Act of

:18:14. > :18:18.Parliament, that's fine. If either House decides to vote against the

:18:19. > :18:22.will of the people, it will probably trigger a general election and we

:18:23. > :18:28.will have a new House of Commons. Do you think really think that's a

:18:29. > :18:30.realistic possibility? I think they will be signing their own death

:18:31. > :18:36.warrant. Public confidence in the House of Lords is low as it is. If

:18:37. > :18:39.they try and frustrate the referendum outcome, I think they're

:18:40. > :18:43.in trouble. You will vote against it as a Lib Dem? The thing we will

:18:44. > :18:47.press for is the idea there should be a second vote on the terments of

:18:48. > :18:51.the deal so people voted for departure and voted to leave the EU,

:18:52. > :18:56.but did not vote for what the shape of our are you nip with the EU was

:18:57. > :18:59.going to be like. If we don't get that, we will vote against. Is that

:19:00. > :19:01.not unacceptable because you would be voting against the will of the

:19:02. > :19:04.majority of people in this country? We would be saying in fact the

:19:05. > :19:14.people should have their say. So actually I think it is

:19:15. > :19:19.reinforcing... People had their say? Very they voted to leave the EU. The

:19:20. > :19:24.polling suggests that people whether they voted for Brexit or for Remain

:19:25. > :19:29.are in favour of us staying in the single market. How do you respond to

:19:30. > :19:33.the Lib Dems argument Theresa Villiers? The Lib Dems want to

:19:34. > :19:37.frustrate, implementation of the result of the referendum. That's not

:19:38. > :19:42.what he said? The reality is referendums are not best out of

:19:43. > :19:46.three. We had a vote. The turn-out was high. More people voted Leave in

:19:47. > :19:51.this country that had ever voted for anything else in the history of

:19:52. > :19:58.British democracy. As the elected House, we need to obey the will of

:19:59. > :20:05.the people and vote to trigger Article 50. Do you want to respond?

:20:06. > :20:11.The difficulty for Theresa, she knows that what the EU is going to

:20:12. > :20:14.look like is different from the views articulated by many members of

:20:15. > :20:17.the Leave campaign. So there was no consistent view of what our

:20:18. > :20:20.relationship was going to be like of the that's why we think people

:20:21. > :20:24.should have their chance in saying either we like what the Government

:20:25. > :20:27.are proposing in terms of the deal, or alternatively, actually, we think

:20:28. > :20:31.that the current arrangement is preferable. I have to disagree. The

:20:32. > :20:35.Leave campaign made it very clear what leaving the EU was going to

:20:36. > :20:41.look like. It meant taking back control of our borders and taking

:20:42. > :20:44.back control of our money and sovereignty of the British

:20:45. > :20:50.Parliament. It was made also clear Tom, as you know, time and time

:20:51. > :20:55.again the Remain campaign said we'll have to leave the single market. The

:20:56. > :21:00.Remain campaign used that as a scare tactic. We have to leave the single

:21:01. > :21:05.market and then we have to in order to get the control back. Can I pick

:21:06. > :21:08.up on that point? We were promised by the vote Leave campaign by

:21:09. > :21:11.Michael Gove that Scotland would get powers over immigration if we voted

:21:12. > :21:14.to leave. I asked the Home Secretary about that yesterday and we were

:21:15. > :21:17.told we're not getting it, a broken promise. Just as we were told that

:21:18. > :21:21.if we voted no to independence we would be able to stay in the

:21:22. > :21:26.European Union, another broken promise. So vote Leave does not have

:21:27. > :21:29.a great record. You can't pawn on a blank page and you didn't tell us,

:21:30. > :21:35.and the little we have been told has been broken. Depending what the

:21:36. > :21:39.Supreme Court justices say in eight minutes time, potentially, you, the

:21:40. > :21:42.Scottish Parliament, could block Brexit or at least have a greater

:21:43. > :21:47.say over the process. What will you do? Well, it is up to the Scottish

:21:48. > :21:51.Parliamentarians, I'm not a Scottish Parliamentarian, but the people

:21:52. > :21:55.sitting except Ukip are represented in the Scottish Parliament. Now, the

:21:56. > :21:59.UK Parliament have never legislated for something that is a

:22:00. > :22:01.responsibility of the Scottish Parliament without getting the

:22:02. > :22:05.Scottish Parliament's permission to do so-so I think that's appropriate

:22:06. > :22:08.that given any moves to leave the European Union will have a

:22:09. > :22:11.significant impact on each and every citizen in every part of the United

:22:12. > :22:14.Kingdom. We will have to see what they say. They may or may not

:22:15. > :22:19.spesify how the Government should consult Parliament. If indeed, they

:22:20. > :22:24.decide that is the way to go. A general question about judges having

:22:25. > :22:27.a say at this point. Suzanne Evans, you talked in December, you were

:22:28. > :22:33.really cross with the High Court ruling, you talked about in December

:22:34. > :22:36.judges should come under some form of democratic control and scrutiny

:22:37. > :22:41.of Select Committees, do you stand by that? What I was trying to say

:22:42. > :22:47.that judges should be subject to some kind of democratic scrutiny...

:22:48. > :22:53.With independence comes accountability. And I think Ukip is

:22:54. > :22:57.looking at possibly talking about how the judicial Appointments

:22:58. > :23:03.Commission works and say shouldn't the chair of the justice Select

:23:04. > :23:06.Committee have some say in the appointment of judges. Because of

:23:07. > :23:09.the High Court ruling? No, because it is a general principle of

:23:10. > :23:18.democracy. The situation we have a the moment... Why are you smaolg?

:23:19. > :23:27.Judges are appointed by a quango or a self appointing oligarchy. That's

:23:28. > :23:31.wrong. You're undermining it if any of the controls you were talking

:23:32. > :23:35.about were put in place. Scrutiny, not controls. The other thing to

:23:36. > :23:38.remember here is this is a point of law that the judges are deciding on.

:23:39. > :23:43.It is not a political decision. They're deciding whether it is right

:23:44. > :23:46.for ministers and the Prime Minister to simply decree that we are moving

:23:47. > :23:51.Article 50 as opposed to asking Parliament. What I never understood

:23:52. > :23:57.is why Ukip and the other people who campaigned so hard to bring back law

:23:58. > :24:00.making powers to the UK and to Parliament then get annoyed about

:24:01. > :24:08.the prospect of the Parliament exercising its rights. It is a

:24:09. > :24:12.nonsense argument. What do you think about democratic accountability

:24:13. > :24:17.slash control? I don't think that works with regards to the way the

:24:18. > :24:22.judiciary works. The judiciary is there, its independence is important

:24:23. > :24:25.so it can give you an independent point of what the case law says.

:24:26. > :24:28.There is that element of independence. There is

:24:29. > :24:33.accountability. You are distinguishing between how you

:24:34. > :24:35.appoint them so we can discuss separately whether the appointment

:24:36. > :24:39.process is independent. I don't think you should make them

:24:40. > :24:45.democratically appointed. That's not the way to go. The justices

:24:46. > :24:50.considering this point of law. Is it the right? Are you cross about it?

:24:51. > :24:54.Anthony, what about you? It is one of the key parts of the separation

:24:55. > :24:57.power and it's absolutely important that they have their say because the

:24:58. > :25:03.decision to leave the European Union will affect every citizen in this

:25:04. > :25:07.country. The terms that were put to the nation, were spurious at best.

:25:08. > :25:11.We're still waiting on the ?350 million to the NHS. We're still

:25:12. > :25:21.waiting on World War three as well. Let's hope that doesn't happen. The

:25:22. > :25:27.Remain campaign told all sorts of lies. Judges should have a say. It

:25:28. > :25:31.is a long-standing democracy and long may that continue. You think

:25:32. > :25:36.this is interference in the democratic process. Explain why.

:25:37. > :25:40.Because I think it's all very good, yes, we won the independence of the

:25:41. > :25:45.judiciary, however, we have had a referendum and the people have

:25:46. > :25:49.spoken. So, every time we don't like a result of an election or a

:25:50. > :25:54.referendum, we go back and try to undermine it. So what's the

:25:55. > :25:56.difference between our democracy and a dictatorship? So when the

:25:57. > :26:01.president of the Supreme Court said this is not about overturning the

:26:02. > :26:05.referendum, it is about the process by which we leave the European

:26:06. > :26:10.Union. Did you not believe him? No, I do not believe him and I just want

:26:11. > :26:15.to talk about Tom Brake because his constituency in London, most of his

:26:16. > :26:19.electorate voted to leave and here he's coming and saying that he wants

:26:20. > :26:24.to stay and he wants to fight against it. Aren't you undermining

:26:25. > :26:26.democracy? Members of Parliament are elected to represent their

:26:27. > :26:32.constituents, but we are also entitled to hold our own view. I'm

:26:33. > :26:35.against the death pen aland if the majority of my constituents favour

:26:36. > :26:40.the death penalty, that doesn't mean I will support the death penalty.

:26:41. > :26:44.Nobody is going to chop your head off to leave the EU. Most voters,

:26:45. > :26:47.they will have known for sometime that voting for a Liberal Democrat,

:26:48. > :26:51.you're going to get someone who is pro-European. So it was a very small

:26:52. > :26:57.margin, but I think in relation to judges, there are many countries

:26:58. > :27:03.around the world where they exert democratic control... Are you

:27:04. > :27:10.suggesting I'm saying that, come off it, Tom. Come off it. The first

:27:11. > :27:15.point I want to respond to is the ?350 million. You have to be quick

:27:16. > :27:20.because we're going live any second. It wasn't a promise made by the

:27:21. > :27:25.campaigns... Apart from the bus advert. It wasn't a promise. The

:27:26. > :27:28.point I want to make I believe that judges should have the power to

:27:29. > :27:32.decide on this point of law, but there is an argument to be made

:27:33. > :27:36.though the fact that Parliament was ignored for 40 years when British

:27:37. > :27:41.people didn't get a chance to lobby their MPs to have a vote on whether

:27:42. > :27:44.the issue would be part of the European Union or not. That is an

:27:45. > :27:47.important point and that might be one of the reasons why people

:27:48. > :27:50.decided that OK, well, this is the first chance I'm going to be heard,

:27:51. > :27:57.then I might as well just stick it to the guys that didn't give me the

:27:58. > :28:02.chance. All those treaties we signed handing over power to the European

:28:03. > :28:10.Parliament that you did nothing about.

:28:11. > :28:14.Kenneth says, "The ruling is a tactic to obstruct and achieve

:28:15. > :28:22.nothing. It's quite frustrating. What do they hope to adhef?" Marie

:28:23. > :28:26.says, "The real story is the rip and but we areful can't accept our

:28:27. > :28:32.decision to leave the EU." Glen says, "The courts must decide. Or we

:28:33. > :28:36.have a dictatorship." Robert says, "How much has Gina Miller and her

:28:37. > :28:40.banker backers cost the public purse? This money could have been

:28:41. > :28:46.spent on the NHS, rather than defending the tantrums of the 1%."

:28:47. > :28:49.Let's go live to the Supreme Court as we await the judgement. Ben Brown

:28:50. > :28:56.is there. Ben, what's going to happen in the next few minutes?

:28:57. > :29:01.Yes, Victoria, at 9.30am we will hear from Lord Neuberger who is the

:29:02. > :29:06.president of the Supreme Court. And he will deliver the judgement of the

:29:07. > :29:10.11 Supreme Court justices. They sat for four days last month to hear

:29:11. > :29:14.this case and essentially they have to decide whether it is Parliament

:29:15. > :29:19.that must trigger Article 50 to begin the process of the UK leaving

:29:20. > :29:23.the EU or whether the Government can do that with its prerogative powers.

:29:24. > :29:28.The Prime Minister already knows the judgement. Theresa May was told

:29:29. > :29:32.about it at 9.15am, the top lawyers involved in this case already know

:29:33. > :29:38.as well. They have had advance sight of this judgement. We will get it at

:29:39. > :29:41.9.30am in a minute's time, a five minute summary of the judgement and

:29:42. > :29:48.then well' get the full judgement online. Let's talk to our legal

:29:49. > :29:53.affairs expert Clive Coleman, in a nutshell, what have they got to

:29:54. > :29:57.decide? Well, it comes down to a simple issue, can ministers alone

:29:58. > :30:04.trigger Article 50 this process by which the UK leaves the EU? Can they

:30:05. > :30:09.do that using prerogative powers, executive powers or do they need the

:30:10. > :30:14.authority of an Act of Parliament to empower them to do that? That's the

:30:15. > :30:18.single issue that the court has to decide. There is a question about

:30:19. > :30:20.whether if there is Parliamentary legislation on this, Scotland and

:30:21. > :30:27.Wales and Northern Ireland should have a say in it?

:30:28. > :30:32.Absolutely, some say this is more than a political as you, because it

:30:33. > :30:37.is only a convention that says the devolved assemblies or Parliament

:30:38. > :30:41.have to give their consent. It is convention, it doesn't have legal

:30:42. > :30:46.force, but it will be interesting to hear what they have to say on that.

:30:47. > :30:49.Also interesting, the pressure on these 11 Supreme Court justices,

:30:50. > :30:53.because with the High Court decision, there was a lot of talk in

:30:54. > :30:58.the press, one headline was that they were enemies of the people. So

:30:59. > :31:02.there is political pressure on them. There is, they have got pretty tough

:31:03. > :31:08.hides, they will not be susceptible to that kind of pressure, we have an

:31:09. > :31:12.independent judiciary in this country, this is a critical part of

:31:13. > :31:16.our constitutional arrangement, and this demonstrates something very

:31:17. > :31:20.important - that nobody is above the law, including the Government. What

:31:21. > :31:25.is being argued by Gina Miller is that ministers are seeking to do

:31:26. > :31:30.something that is unlawful under our constitution, and the judicial

:31:31. > :31:34.review was triggered by two ordinary citizens, to have the right to go to

:31:35. > :31:39.court and ask the court to scrutinise whether the actions of

:31:40. > :31:48.ministers were lawful or not. Many people regard that as a pretty

:31:49. > :31:53.democratic part of our country. The 11 Supreme Court justices could be

:31:54. > :31:57.split on this, it could be a majority decision, say 7-4 something

:31:58. > :32:00.like that, and that will be explained. Lord Neuberger will let

:32:01. > :32:05.others know whether there are dissenting judgments, who they come

:32:06. > :32:08.from, they may be descending on a specific point, we will get the full

:32:09. > :32:13.picture from Lord Neuberger within minutes. We are just waiting for

:32:14. > :32:19.those 11 Supreme Court justices to come to the bench. And if it is

:32:20. > :32:23.against the government, and if it is for Gina miller, that means the

:32:24. > :32:27.Government pretty quickly have to push some legislation through

:32:28. > :32:32.Parliament. There is only one option if they lose, they will have to put

:32:33. > :32:35.a bill through parliament, and that means that the Government loses

:32:36. > :32:40.control of the process. It is a bit embarrassing. They didn't want to do

:32:41. > :32:44.it that way, but once a bill is put into Parliament, the Government

:32:45. > :32:49.ministers lose a little power, and Parliament gains power, so

:32:50. > :32:54.Parliament could decide to lay down amendments. I do not think there is

:32:55. > :32:57.any appetite for Parliament to block this process, they are not going to

:32:58. > :33:02.stand in a way of the Democratic juggernaut that was the referendum

:33:03. > :33:06.vote, but it becomes more difficult, somewhat embarrassing for the

:33:07. > :33:09.Government, and it may mess with the timetable that Theresa May has set

:33:10. > :33:15.herself to trigger by the end of March. So it becomes a messier, more

:33:16. > :33:19.difficult process. Lord Neuberger did say, before they went off to

:33:20. > :33:23.retire and consider their judgment, this is not about what we think

:33:24. > :33:28.about membership of the European Union, this is not about trying to

:33:29. > :33:31.rerun the referendum. Of course it isn't, some people have advertised

:33:32. > :33:39.it as bad, but the referendum results determined that we would

:33:40. > :33:43.leave the EU. This is about what the lawful mechanism is under our

:33:44. > :33:47.constitution, applying the rule of law, for that process to be

:33:48. > :33:51.triggered. You know, is it something that can be done at the stroke of a

:33:52. > :33:56.minister's pen, or is it something that needs the authority of

:33:57. > :34:00.Parliament in order to trigger it? And that is a legal question, and

:34:01. > :34:04.you need judges to determine that legal question. Well, we were

:34:05. > :34:11.expecting this judgment at half past, so it has been slightly

:34:12. > :34:16.delayed. We do not know whether they are still working out their

:34:17. > :34:21.judgment, still arguing! I doubt it! Do they just sit in a room and argue

:34:22. > :34:25.it out? About a week after the hearing ended, they meet together as

:34:26. > :34:29.a group of 11, they give their views, starting with the most junior

:34:30. > :34:35.justice, and after that I am sure there is some lively debate. Here we

:34:36. > :34:40.go! Here we go, they are now coming to the bench in the Supreme Court,

:34:41. > :34:44.the 11 Supreme Court Justices, and we will hear from Lord Neuberger arm

:34:45. > :35:03.of the president of the Supreme Court with this historic judgment.

:35:04. > :35:07.Judgment in the appeal between Miller and another and the Northern

:35:08. > :35:12.Ireland references. On the 1st of January 1973, the United Kingdom

:35:13. > :35:18.joined the European Economic Community, now the European Union,

:35:19. > :35:24.the EU. This was achieved by government ministers signing a

:35:25. > :35:31.treaty of accession and Parliament enacting the European Communities

:35:32. > :35:35.Act 1972. Over the next 40 years, developments in the EU resulted from

:35:36. > :35:40.further treaties, many of which were adopted in subsequent acts of

:35:41. > :35:46.parliament, and some of those acts curbed the exercise of the powers of

:35:47. > :35:52.UK ministers in EU institutions. One of those acts of Parliament was in

:35:53. > :35:58.2008, and it approved the inclusion of Article 50 into the EU treaties.

:35:59. > :36:04.In broad terms, Article 50 provides that a country wishing to leave the

:36:05. > :36:09.EU must give a notice in accordance with its own constitutional

:36:10. > :36:16.requirements, and that the EU treaties shall cease to apply to

:36:17. > :36:21.that country within two years. On the 23rd of June 2016, a UK wide

:36:22. > :36:26.referendum reduced a majority in favour of leaving the EU, and the

:36:27. > :36:34.Government then announced its intention to trigger Article 50. The

:36:35. > :36:39.issue in these proceedings have nothing to do with whether the UK

:36:40. > :36:45.should exit from the EU or the terms or timetable for that exit. The main

:36:46. > :36:52.issue is whether the Government can trigger Article 50 without the prior

:36:53. > :36:56.authority of an act of Parliament. The other issues concern the

:36:57. > :37:04.obligations of the UK Government and the devolution legislation before

:37:05. > :37:07.triggering Article 50, and in particular whether legislatures in

:37:08. > :37:14.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland must be consulted. So far as the

:37:15. > :37:18.main issue was concerned, as a general rule, the Government has a

:37:19. > :37:24.prerogative power to withdraw from international treaties as it sees

:37:25. > :37:28.fit. However, the Government cannot exercise that power if it would

:37:29. > :37:34.thereby change UK laws unless it is authorised to do so by Parliament.

:37:35. > :37:40.The claimants argue that, as a result of leaving the EU, UK law

:37:41. > :37:45.will change and legal rights enjoyed by UK residents will be lost.

:37:46. > :37:52.Accordingly, they say, the Government cannot trigger Article 50

:37:53. > :37:57.unless authorised by Parliament. In reply, the Government argues that

:37:58. > :38:03.the 1972 act does not exclude the power for ministers to withdraw from

:38:04. > :38:09.the EU treaties, and that section two of the 1972 act actually caters

:38:10. > :38:16.for the exercise of such a power. Today, by a majority of 8-3, the

:38:17. > :38:19.Supreme Court rules that the Government cannot trigger Article 50

:38:20. > :38:26.without an act of Parliament authorising it to do so. Put

:38:27. > :38:31.briefly, the reasons given in a judgment written by all eight

:38:32. > :38:37.justices in the majority are as follows - section two of the 1972

:38:38. > :38:44.act provides that, whenever EU institutions make new laws, those

:38:45. > :38:51.new laws become part of UK law. The 1972 act therefore makes EU law an

:38:52. > :38:55.independent source of EU law until Parliament decides otherwise.

:38:56. > :39:02.Therefore, when the UK withdraws from the EU treaties, a source of UK

:39:03. > :39:09.law will be cut off. Further, certain rights enjoyed by UK

:39:10. > :39:11.citizens will be changed. Therefore, the Government cannot trigger

:39:12. > :39:18.Article 50 without Parliament authorising that course. We reject

:39:19. > :39:21.the Government's argument that section two caters for the

:39:22. > :39:25.possibility of the Government withdrawing from EU treaties. There

:39:26. > :39:32.is a vital difference between changes in UK law resulting from

:39:33. > :39:36.changes in EU law, and those are authorised by section two, and

:39:37. > :39:42.changes in UK law resulting from withdrawal from the EU treaties.

:39:43. > :39:49.Withdrawal affects a fundamental change by cutting off be source of

:39:50. > :39:54.EU law, as well as changing legal rights. The UK's constitutional

:39:55. > :39:57.arrangements requires such changes to be clearly authorised by

:39:58. > :40:08.Parliament, and the 1972 act does not do that. Indeed, it has the

:40:09. > :40:11.opposite effect. The referendum is of great little significance, but

:40:12. > :40:14.the act of Parliament which established it did not say what

:40:15. > :40:19.should happen as a result, so any change in the law to give effect to

:40:20. > :40:22.the referendum must be made in the only way permitted by the UK

:40:23. > :40:28.constitution, namely by an act of Parliament. To proceed otherwise

:40:29. > :40:37.would be a breach of settled constitutional principles stretching

:40:38. > :40:40.back many centuries. The dissenting justices consider the Government can

:40:41. > :40:46.trigger Article 50 without an authorising act of Parliament. Their

:40:47. > :40:51.view is that the 1972 act, taken with the 2008 act, renders the

:40:52. > :40:57.domestic effect of EU law conditional on the EU treaties

:40:58. > :41:00.applying to the UK. In their view, Parliament has not imposed any

:41:01. > :41:05.limitation on the Government's prerogative power to withdraw from

:41:06. > :41:11.the treaties, and if Article 50 is triggered, EU law will cease to have

:41:12. > :41:17.effect in UK law in accordance with the 1972 and 2008 acts. On the

:41:18. > :41:24.devolution issues, the court unanimously rules that UK ministers

:41:25. > :41:28.are not legally compelled to consult the devolved legislatures before

:41:29. > :41:31.triggering Article 50. The devolution statutes were enacted on

:41:32. > :41:37.the assumption that the UK would be a member of the EU, but they do not

:41:38. > :41:44.require it. Relations with the EU are a matter for the UK Government.

:41:45. > :41:48.The convention plays an important part in the operation of the UK

:41:49. > :41:54.constitution, but the policing of its scope and its operation is not a

:41:55. > :41:57.matter for the courts. We thank all those who have played a part in

:41:58. > :42:02.helping us determine these important legal questions. Copies of the full

:42:03. > :42:15.judgment and of the summary version are now available on the Supreme

:42:16. > :42:21.Court website. The court is now adjourned.

:42:22. > :42:24.So that is Lord Neuberger, president of the Supreme Court, delivering

:42:25. > :42:30.that judgment, which makes legal, constitutional and political

:42:31. > :42:35.history, and as many people had speculated, the Government have lost

:42:36. > :42:40.this case, 8-3 was the decision. There were 11 Supreme Court Justices

:42:41. > :42:47.hearing it. Initially, some people said that the law on this was pretty

:42:48. > :42:52.clear, but it might even be an 11-0 result against the Government, but

:42:53. > :42:58.it is a split judgment, 8-3. Lord Neuberger was making it clear that

:42:59. > :43:06.he believes that, because the British Parliament enshrined EU law

:43:07. > :43:08.into British law and gave British citizens rights, then only

:43:09. > :43:14.Parliament can take away those rights that it has conferred. And he

:43:15. > :43:19.said, to proceed otherwise, in other words for Parliament not to be the

:43:20. > :43:22.one that triggers Article 50, would be a breach of settled

:43:23. > :43:27.constitutional principles stretching back many centuries. So that

:43:28. > :43:30.judgment was very clear. Let's get some thoughts on it from our legal

:43:31. > :43:34.affairs correspondent Clive Coleman, who has a copy of the full judgment,

:43:35. > :43:38.which I know you will be ploughing through later on! But we have just

:43:39. > :43:42.got the five minute summary there, and it was pretty much as we

:43:43. > :43:48.expected, the Government all along were not really expected to win

:43:49. > :43:52.here. No, the Government face a major problem in this case,

:43:53. > :43:56.essentially arguing against Parliamentary sovereignty. We don't

:43:57. > :44:00.have a written constitution in this country, but the founding principle

:44:01. > :44:03.of our constitutional arrangement is that Parliament is sovereign,

:44:04. > :44:06.Parliament creates the laws, and only Parliament camera move those

:44:07. > :44:13.laws, and that was the real problem for the off. Some thought that I

:44:14. > :44:20.come and very ingenious, arguing that effectively the rights

:44:21. > :44:27.enshrined were not nailed down statutory rights. -- some thought

:44:28. > :44:30.that the Government had a very ingenious argument. A treaty is

:44:31. > :44:35.something where the royal prerogative can be used, it can be

:44:36. > :44:39.used to reach in and remove those rights. The Supreme Court has this

:44:40. > :44:47.morning, by a majority of 8-3, said that is not the case, these are

:44:48. > :44:53.rights enshrined in UK law... And here is the Attorney General for the

:44:54. > :44:56.Government. I want to thank the Supreme Court

:44:57. > :45:00.for the careful consideration they have given to this matter. It is a

:45:01. > :45:06.case that it was wholly appropriate for the highest court in the land to

:45:07. > :45:11.decide. Of course, the Government is disappointed with the outcome. But

:45:12. > :45:16.we had the good fortune to live in a country where everyone, every

:45:17. > :45:20.individual, every organisation, even government, is subject to the rule

:45:21. > :45:24.of law. So the Government will comply with the judgment of the

:45:25. > :45:28.court and do all that is necessary to implement it.

:45:29. > :45:33.The court has been very clear throughout the hearing of this case

:45:34. > :45:39.that it has not been deciding whether the United Kingdom should or

:45:40. > :45:46.should not leave the European Union. The people of the United Kingdom

:45:47. > :45:50.have already made that decision. And now enacting that decision will be a

:45:51. > :45:56.political matter and not a legal matter. And so, the Secretary of

:45:57. > :46:00.State for Exiting the European Union will make a further statement in

:46:01. > :46:11.Parliament later today. Thank you very much indeed. So that's Jeremy

:46:12. > :46:15.Wright, the Attorney-General, speaking there on behalf of the

:46:16. > :46:21.Government with immediate reaction to that decision, that judgement

:46:22. > :46:26.from the Supreme Court that, eight to three judgement by the 11 Supreme

:46:27. > :46:30.Court justices that it is Parliament that has to trigger Article 50. The

:46:31. > :46:34.Government cannot do it alone through its prerogative powers as it

:46:35. > :46:37.wanted to. Jeremy Wright, the Attorney-General saying it was

:46:38. > :46:41.wholly appropriate for the highest court in the land to hear this and

:46:42. > :46:46.in That the Government will comply and do that is needed now to trigger

:46:47. > :46:51.Article 50. We gather that the Government already have several

:46:52. > :46:55.pieces of draft legislation that they're planning to put to

:46:56. > :46:59.Parliament. They will chose which Draft Bill they put to Parliament,

:47:00. > :47:02.depending on the exact wording of the judgement when they've had a

:47:03. > :47:06.chance to read all the details of the judgement itself. The Prime

:47:07. > :47:13.Minister, Theresa May, we gather was given a copy of the judgement at

:47:14. > :47:17.9.15am so she knew ahead of Lord Neuberger telling us, she knew that

:47:18. > :47:24.decision. So that's the latest from the Supreme Court, Victoria, 8-3 is

:47:25. > :47:31.the decision. Let's just have a another listen in. This is the

:47:32. > :47:37.solicitor for another of the complainedants, David Greene.

:47:38. > :47:41.-- complainants, David Greene. The rightful process as well as the role

:47:42. > :47:47.that the law plays in ensuring a lawful political process. This has

:47:48. > :47:53.been a unique and difficult fight where the legal issues were often

:47:54. > :47:59.clouded by a polarized and politically charged backdrop. Yet,

:48:00. > :48:04.as has been made clear by the Supreme Court and the divisional

:48:05. > :48:07.court, this is a case not about whether we should withdraw from the

:48:08. > :48:10.European Union, but about the constitution of the UK and the

:48:11. > :48:15.relationship between Parliament and Government. The result is a

:48:16. > :48:20.reassertion, by the court, that we live this a Parliamentary democracy

:48:21. > :48:24.in which having been elected, our MPs in Parliament have the sovereign

:48:25. > :48:29.power to grant rights and remove them. A power only constricted by

:48:30. > :48:36.consideration of Human Rights and the rule of law. These rights affect

:48:37. > :48:41.people's lives, family lives, where they live, where they work, their

:48:42. > :48:47.very right-to-work in this country, they are vital rights in day-to-day

:48:48. > :48:50.life. The court has decided that the rights attaching to our membership

:48:51. > :48:55.of the European Union, were given by Parliament and can only be taken

:48:56. > :49:02.away by Parliament. This is a victory for democracy and the rule

:49:03. > :49:04.of law. We should all welcome it. Some have asked what is point of

:49:05. > :49:10.this judgement now that the Prime Minister has said she will give

:49:11. > :49:14.Parliament a vote on the Brexit deal after negotiations? We can speculate

:49:15. > :49:21.that she may not have done so had not the cases of my client and Gina

:49:22. > :49:25.Miller been brought to the court. Is Mrs May's recent concession

:49:26. > :49:30.sufficient? The answer is no. Having served the Article 50 notice we will

:49:31. > :49:34.withdraw from the union on the second anniversary whether a deal is

:49:35. > :49:39.done or not and whether Parliament approves it or not. Parliament may

:49:40. > :49:44.then be left with a choice - vote yes for the deal put to them or we

:49:45. > :49:49.leave with no deal at all. The time for the vote then is now. On the

:49:50. > :49:53.principle of withdrawal and the inevitable removal of citizens'

:49:54. > :49:57.rights that will follow both for citizens here and indeed, UK

:49:58. > :50:03.citizens in the European Union. In considering an Article 50 statute,

:50:04. > :50:09.we are sure that MPs will have those rights in mind. Finally, this is

:50:10. > :50:16.also a victory for our judicial process, both my client and his co

:50:17. > :50:23.claimant Gina Miller has received hate mail of a vile and threatening

:50:24. > :50:28.nature, and yet have had their case heard and were treated by the courts

:50:29. > :50:32.with the greatest respect. Judges were subject to intense media

:50:33. > :50:36.scrutiny and indim tation. A determination has been made based

:50:37. > :50:41.purely on the legal issues which is as it should be. The judges are not

:50:42. > :50:47.the enemies of the people. They are for the people to stop arbitrary

:50:48. > :50:51.action by a Government. The Government and the lorge chancellor

:50:52. > :50:54.should today confirm its unquestioning supporting for the

:50:55. > :50:58.rights of the claimants in this case and their respect for the court's

:50:59. > :51:02.decision this. Is a victory for Parliamentary democracy and the rule

:51:03. > :51:07.of law and whatever changes we are about to face, as a result of

:51:08. > :51:10.Brexit, it is reassuring that the sacred principles have today been

:51:11. > :51:19.reaffirmed and will hopefully endure. Thank you.

:51:20. > :51:23.So that's David Greene who is a solicitor for one of the claimants,

:51:24. > :51:27.a hairdresser, along with Gina Miller, the businesswoman who

:51:28. > :51:31.originally brought this case saying that Parliament should decide on

:51:32. > :51:37.this. He said it was a victory for democracy and the rule of law. Let's

:51:38. > :51:42.listen in. We've got another of the participants in the case. Involved

:51:43. > :51:46.in this historic case since the outset representing the two million

:51:47. > :51:50.or so British citizens who live in other parts of Europe. We are

:51:51. > :51:56.delighted and relieved by the decision of the Supreme Court today.

:51:57. > :52:01.There can now be proper, control by the MPs, the British people elect

:52:02. > :52:07.over the process of the UK leaving the EU. Together with three million

:52:08. > :52:11.nationals of other European countries who live here, we are the

:52:12. > :52:18.people who will be most profoundly affected by all of this. Everything

:52:19. > :52:23.people in Britain take for granted in their daily lives rests for us,

:52:24. > :52:27.on our being EU citizens. From being able to work, to accessing vital

:52:28. > :52:33.healthcare and our children's education. Let me give you an

:52:34. > :52:38.example. Healthcare is absolutely key. Many UK pensioners are entitled

:52:39. > :52:45.to join the healthcare systems of the countries in which they live.

:52:46. > :52:48.These rights would be lost and thousands of UK expatriates unable

:52:49. > :52:54.to continue to receive the healthcare to which they are

:52:55. > :52:59.entitled. My friend Paul from the village we live in, sadly now

:53:00. > :53:06.deceased, lived in Exeter four-and-a-half years because the

:53:07. > :53:12.French healthcare system was able to provide him with treatment that our

:53:13. > :53:17.wonderful NHS was not able to do. I have cancer for the third time and

:53:18. > :53:21.yet treatment in France. So it is a matter of life or death. Despite

:53:22. > :53:27.this, a large number of us would not permit me to vote in the referendum

:53:28. > :53:32.at all. Many of us now face losing our basic citizenship rights without

:53:33. > :53:36.ever having a say so. The rights of these millions of people went

:53:37. > :53:42.largely overlooked in the referendum. Proper Parliamentary

:53:43. > :53:45.scrut nigh now offers the best chance for our circumstances to be

:53:46. > :53:51.considered in the lead up to the Brexit negotiations. This is the

:53:52. > :53:56.human side of Brexit. We would urge the Government not to use us as

:53:57. > :54:01.bargaining chips. We will be calling on the Government and the European

:54:02. > :54:07.Commission to ensure hard guarantees are put in place about what the

:54:08. > :54:14.future holds for such a large number of ordinary people. We ask that

:54:15. > :54:20.governments across the EU do the same. I would like to thank our

:54:21. > :54:27.excellent legal team and the 11 Supreme Court justices. That's John

:54:28. > :54:32.Shaw. He is from an organisation called Fair Deal For Ex-pats. You

:54:33. > :54:36.have been watching history being made by 8-3, the Supreme Court

:54:37. > :54:41.zwrisz ruled that the Government cannot trigger Article 50, that's

:54:42. > :54:46.the process of leaving the EU, without an Act of Parliament. Let's

:54:47. > :54:52.go to Norman, our political guru, reaction from the Labour leader,

:54:53. > :54:58.Jeremy Corbyn. Hi Vic. So Jeremy Corbyn has put out a statement. The

:54:59. > :55:01.significant thing as expected. He says Labour will not frustrate the

:55:02. > :55:06.process for invoking Article 50 Article 50. So Labour will not vote

:55:07. > :55:11.against Article 50. However, here is the but. Let's cross back. Gina

:55:12. > :55:16.Miller is probably just talking now. In November, in a case that went to

:55:17. > :55:21.the very heart of our constitution and how we are governed. Only

:55:22. > :55:27.Parliament can grant rights to the British people and only Parliament

:55:28. > :55:32.can take them away. No Prime Minister, no Government, can expect

:55:33. > :55:39.to be unanswerable or unchallenged. Parliament alone is sovereign. This

:55:40. > :55:45.ruling today means that MPs, we have elected, will rightfully have the

:55:46. > :55:49.opportunity to bring their invaluable experience and expertise

:55:50. > :55:54.to bear in helping the Government select the best course if in the

:55:55. > :56:00.forthcoming Brexit negotiations. Negotiations that will frame our

:56:01. > :56:07.place in the world and all our destinies to come. There is no doubt

:56:08. > :56:13.that Brexit is the most decisive, divisive issue of a generation. But

:56:14. > :56:19.this case was about the legal process, not politics. Today's

:56:20. > :56:24.decision has created legal certainty based on our democratic process and

:56:25. > :56:29.provides the legal foundations for the Government to trigger Article

:56:30. > :56:40.50. I want to express my gratitude to the Supreme Court, my team, Lord

:56:41. > :56:44.Pannick and my other counsel for being to conduct themselves with

:56:45. > :56:51.such integrity and thoughtfulness in the face of extraordinary and

:56:52. > :56:57.unwarranted criticism. In Britain, we are lucky, we are fortunate to

:56:58. > :57:02.have the ability to voice legitimate concerns and views as part of a

:57:03. > :57:07.shared society. I have therefore been shocked by the levels of

:57:08. > :57:16.personal abuse that I have received from many quarters over the last

:57:17. > :57:21.seven months for simply bringing and asking a legitimate question. I

:57:22. > :57:27.sincerely hope that going forwards people who stand in positions of

:57:28. > :57:32.power and profile are much quicker in condemning those who cross the

:57:33. > :57:37.lines of common decency and mutual respect. Lastly, I would like to

:57:38. > :57:42.wholeheartedly thank those who have sent me the most heart warming

:57:43. > :57:46.messages of support. They have truly helped to bolster me in this most

:57:47. > :57:55.arduous process. Let's go back to Norman. You were

:57:56. > :57:58.explaining how Labour are going to approach this historic ruling,

:57:59. > :58:01.Norman. Yeah. Yeah. The key thing to understand is that Labour are not

:58:02. > :58:07.going to oppose triggering Article 50. But Jeremy Corbyn has set out a

:58:08. > :58:11.range of amendments which he is going to table. Let me run you

:58:12. > :58:16.through them. There are three key amendments. Amendment one is he will

:58:17. > :58:21.press for tariff-free access to the single market. Amendment two is a

:58:22. > :58:24.guarantee of workers rights. Both those can probably be agreed by

:58:25. > :58:27.Theresa May. The killer amendment will be around what he calls a

:58:28. > :58:31.meaningful vote. What does that mean? It means that Theresa May has

:58:32. > :58:36.promised there will be a vote at the end of the whole Brexit process on

:58:37. > :58:40.the deal she negotiates. Now, the view in Team Corbyn, that's not good

:58:41. > :58:45.enough because basically, it will be a take it or leave it deal. What

:58:46. > :58:50.Labour will try and press for is a vote, before Mrs May signs on the

:58:51. > :58:53.dotted line. So MPs will get a chance, before Mrs May as it were,

:58:54. > :58:58.takes us out of the European Union, to say, "Hang on. That deal is not

:58:59. > :59:03.good enough. Go back and get a better deal." That's the critical

:59:04. > :59:09.amendment which Labour are going to table if it is expected we get this

:59:10. > :59:13.Government Bill. The short Bill. The other reaction is from the Liberal

:59:14. > :59:18.Democrats. Tim Farron. The Liberal Democrats are clear we demand a vote

:59:19. > :59:24.of the people on the final deal. So reiterating that he will press for a

:59:25. > :59:28.second referendum to approve the final deal done by Mrs May. So we

:59:29. > :59:34.are getting a sense of the likely battles ahead. Yes, Article 50, MPs

:59:35. > :59:39.will probably, probably, approve that, but they are going to try and

:59:40. > :59:42.insert in that all sorts of conditions. Labour to try and get

:59:43. > :59:45.what they call a meaningful vote. And the Liberal Democrats, to try

:59:46. > :59:49.and ensure there is a second referendum before we leave the EU.

:59:50. > :59:54.So we're getting a sense of the battle lines ahead. So there will be

:59:55. > :59:58.some wrangling then in the Commons. How could that impact on Theresa

:59:59. > :00:02.May's timetable for triggering this whole thing by the end of March?

:00:03. > :00:06.Well, I think the truth is, Theresa May is going to be able to trigger

:00:07. > :00:14.Article 50 and yes, she is going to be able to do it by March because

:00:15. > :00:18.although there are plenty of MPs who want to frame the way she goes about

:00:19. > :00:21.this negotiations, there are amendments that are going to be

:00:22. > :00:26.tabled. No MP, well there are a few, but not many MPs want to be seen to

:00:27. > :00:31.be publicly seen, to be blocking Article 50. Because frankly it will

:00:32. > :00:34.look as if they are defying the will of the people, that they are

:00:35. > :00:40.spitting in the face of the referendum result. They don't want

:00:41. > :00:44.that. Not many are going to vote against triggering Article 50. The

:00:45. > :00:48.real political tussle is over the terms of any deal that Mrs May

:00:49. > :00:52.eventually strikes with the EU. OK, thank you, Norman. I know you'll be

:00:53. > :00:59.back with us, bringing more reaction.

:01:00. > :01:10.By girl says elite judges voting in favour of the elite, this is

:01:11. > :01:14.disgusting. -- Might. Brigid says, a sensible verdict, now it is up to

:01:15. > :01:22.MPs to stop Brexit, they brave enough? Yes! There is not an

:01:23. > :01:28.overview to stop Brexit, let's be realistic. I think that is probably

:01:29. > :01:32.right, because the majority of MPs will vote in favour of Article 50,

:01:33. > :01:36.Jeremy Corbyn is right to be tabling amendments, we will not have a

:01:37. > :01:41.meaningful vote, but now we know there will be the hardest of hard

:01:42. > :01:46.Brexits, they are prepared for us not to be in the single market, or

:01:47. > :01:50.the customs union, for us to tumble out of the EU into a fantasy world

:01:51. > :01:55.where they imagine we will strike global trade deals. We always have

:01:56. > :01:58.been a global trading nation, we have to get some reality back into

:01:59. > :02:02.this process, so at the end of it, if we get to a point where we have

:02:03. > :02:06.the worst set of outcomes, which is where I feel we may end up, the

:02:07. > :02:12.right thing to do then is to allow the British people, one small in an

:02:13. > :02:16.ultra-democratic moment, to confirm whether they really want the hard

:02:17. > :02:19.Brexit that they are likely to get, including the expats and

:02:20. > :02:25.16-year-olds who did not get a vote last time. I want the reaction of

:02:26. > :02:29.voters to the ruling from the Supreme Court this morning, then I

:02:30. > :02:34.will ask you, if you were to vote before Britain leaves the EU, on the

:02:35. > :02:39.deal that Theresa May has come up with. Your reaction first of all? I

:02:40. > :02:43.am happy with the ruling, Parliament do need to have a vote on what

:02:44. > :02:44.happens, it is Parliamentary sovereignty, that is what we voted

:02:45. > :03:03.to leave the EU four. Tomasz Dominic team-mate pre-empted this by saying

:03:04. > :03:08.she would give a vote to Parliament. -- Theresa May. The solicitor for

:03:09. > :03:14.the Dos Santos made an interesting point, it is pretty clear that for

:03:15. > :03:19.the Remain as, they regard this as a rearguard aim to stop Brexit, it is

:03:20. > :03:26.somehow about stopping Brexit in them mines. What you think?

:03:27. > :03:28.Absolutely the right decision, we are here because the Government

:03:29. > :03:33.failed to plan adequately for what would happen in the event of Brexit.

:03:34. > :03:36.They said they wouldn't use public money, but they used public money to

:03:37. > :03:40.argue for one side, and they did not allow the civil service to plan

:03:41. > :03:46.adequately for what happened if we left. I expected this from the

:03:47. > :03:51.judges, so I am not wholly disappointed, but this is another

:03:52. > :03:55.example of frustrating the will of the people. I just want it to carry

:03:56. > :04:00.on. I will come back to you in a second, Norman, you have reaction

:04:01. > :04:08.from the SNP. From the SNP, they say they are going to table 50 serious

:04:09. > :04:11.and substantive amendments to Article 50. They are also calling

:04:12. > :04:16.for the publication of a government white paper on its plans for Brexit,

:04:17. > :04:20.something the Government has said they are not going to do. But 50

:04:21. > :04:24.serious and substantive amendments. That is an awful lot of amendments,

:04:25. > :04:32.I have to say, I suspect most of those will not be ruled in order by

:04:33. > :04:35.these Speaker of the House of Commons, but the SNP signalling that

:04:36. > :04:39.they want to lead the charge against the triggering of Article 50. We

:04:40. > :04:42.know Nicola Sturgeon has already drawn up a fairly firm battle line,

:04:43. > :04:48.warning that if Theresa May goes down the line of hard Brexit, it

:04:49. > :04:51.makes another independence referendum more likely. But a signal

:04:52. > :04:56.from the SNP that they are going to go toe to toe with the Government

:04:57. > :05:03.over Article 50. Thank you very much, Owen Smith said the SNP just

:05:04. > :05:07.showing off. 50? Really 50 substantive amendments? The EU has a

:05:08. > :05:12.significant impact on jobs, I think about university jobs, the food and

:05:13. > :05:16.tricks sector, the single market. These are threatened by this. If the

:05:17. > :05:21.Government was confident in what it was doing, it would not be afraid of

:05:22. > :05:24.Parliamentary scrutiny, so I am not sure why the Government was afraid

:05:25. > :05:28.of Parliamentary scrutiny over actions that will have an impact on

:05:29. > :05:33.each and every one of us in every part of the UK. What does it mean

:05:34. > :05:36.for the devolved assemblies, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh

:05:37. > :05:40.Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly? There will be some

:05:41. > :05:44.annoyance, certainly in the Scottish Government, they would hoping the

:05:45. > :05:47.Scottish Government would get a vote, so MSPs could express their

:05:48. > :05:55.views on Brexit and Article 50, and we know the majority of them were

:05:56. > :05:58.opposed. Now the Supreme Court is saying, no, legally, you don't have

:05:59. > :06:01.to do that. I have not spoken to Nicola Sturgeon's people, but the

:06:02. > :06:05.question for her is whether she decides to hold a symbolic vote

:06:06. > :06:09.anyway, just to underscore opinion in Scotland, is that a way of

:06:10. > :06:14.building momentum for her argument that if Theresa May is going for

:06:15. > :06:17.hard Brexit, it will increase momentum for an independence

:06:18. > :06:22.referendum? I mean, we don't know. I suspect she is sitting down now with

:06:23. > :06:27.advisers and trying to work out, OK, how do we play this now that the

:06:28. > :06:31.Supreme Court is saying we don't automatically get a vote? Let's talk

:06:32. > :06:36.more to Hywel Williams from the Welsh party Plaid Cymru, Wales voted

:06:37. > :06:42.to leave the EU, but his party wanted to remain. Gavin Robinson is

:06:43. > :06:47.from the DUP, Northern Ireland voted to remain, his party wanted to

:06:48. > :06:52.leave. I am aware I have not got reaction from half of the voters, we

:06:53. > :06:56.will be with you, do not worry. Hywel Williams, first of all, UK

:06:57. > :07:00.ministers, according to the Supreme Court Justices, do not legally have

:07:01. > :07:04.to consult the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern

:07:05. > :07:13.Ireland December - your reaction. I am disappointed, clearly the needs

:07:14. > :07:16.of people in Wales have been overruled by central London, I think

:07:17. > :07:21.we should all be properly consulted, and that is the unified view, by the

:07:22. > :07:25.way, of both the governments and the official opposition in Wales, as we

:07:26. > :07:29.showed yesterday when we published the white paper. Gavin? Today is the

:07:30. > :07:34.last day of the Northern Ireland executive, we have a political

:07:35. > :07:37.crisis at home, so even if there had been a requirement, we would not

:07:38. > :07:42.have had an executive to respond to that. But it is not a surprising

:07:43. > :07:47.outcome at all. The UK is not a federal state, we are a union, our

:07:48. > :07:53.Attorney General was very clear back in November and December that there

:07:54. > :07:57.was not one question which suggested that the devolved institutions would

:07:58. > :08:01.have a veto on this process. My constituency voted to leave, our

:08:02. > :08:05.country voted to leave, and the Government will seek can secure the

:08:06. > :08:09.approval of Parliament to enact Article 50. Hywel Williams, what are

:08:10. > :08:15.you going to do, if anything? We will be putting our own amendments

:08:16. > :08:20.down. How many? I don't think it will be 50, but we will be

:08:21. > :08:22.supporting our friends in the SNP and possibly also the Liberal

:08:23. > :08:28.Democrats and the Labour Party. There will be enough MPs to vote to

:08:29. > :08:33.trigger... It is a Parliamentary process, a matter of debate. You

:08:34. > :08:37.cannot say nothing will change, who knows? Of course, it is a process,

:08:38. > :08:42.not an event. People should realise this is going to go on for years,

:08:43. > :08:48.and we will be having debates like this and stating a very consistent

:08:49. > :08:55.standpoint. Back to Norman, we heard from the Government's lawyer not so

:08:56. > :08:59.long ago that they were disappointed to lose this case, reaction from

:09:00. > :09:04.Number Ten, Norman. We have got words now from Number Ten, a defiant

:09:05. > :09:08.message despite losing today, and a determined message to press ahead

:09:09. > :09:13.with legislation to trigger Article 50 by the end of March, as Mrs May

:09:14. > :09:17.said. Let me read you the e-mail they have sent me, the British

:09:18. > :09:20.people voted to leave the EU, and the Government will deliver on the

:09:21. > :09:26.verdict, triggering Article 50 by the end of March. In other words, no

:09:27. > :09:30.change, and it goes on to say, today's ruling does nothing to

:09:31. > :09:36.change that. In effect, OK, the judges have spoken, we will proceed

:09:37. > :09:41.with Plan A. We suspect? Respect the Supreme Court's decision and will

:09:42. > :09:48.set out our next steps to Parliament shortly, which will probably be this

:09:49. > :09:52.afternoon, when we will hear from David Davis, who was presumably

:09:53. > :09:55.going to say, right, we are now going to introduce legislation as

:09:56. > :09:59.the Supreme Court said. The key thing for many of us is to see the

:10:00. > :10:07.bill, and all the indications are it is going to be an extraordinarily

:10:08. > :10:10.short bill, two clauses, and the reason the Government have stripped

:10:11. > :10:14.it back to this very minimal as piece of legislation is the less

:10:15. > :10:18.words there are, the less Frasers, the less scope there is for MPs to

:10:19. > :10:24.table amendments, and their hope is that it will prove very difficult

:10:25. > :10:27.for opposition MPs to successfully get amendments tabled to this bill,

:10:28. > :10:32.and that they will be ruled out of order by the clerk of the House of

:10:33. > :10:35.Commons. That said, do not doubt how ingenious, there are loads of

:10:36. > :10:38.lawyers in Parliament, they will find ways to table amendments, but

:10:39. > :10:43.as far as possible the Government wants to minimise that. Watch out

:10:44. > :10:47.for the timetable from David Davis, house with does the government

:10:48. > :10:57.Matchroom. They have aids week stops to do that. -- how swift does the

:10:58. > :11:00.Government move? There is a big EU jamboree in March, and they want to

:11:01. > :11:04.get it done before that, or it will be a bit embarrassing. They have

:11:05. > :11:08.really got seven weeks, they lose about a week for Parliamentary

:11:09. > :11:17.recess, down to six weeks. I think what we will see is the Government

:11:18. > :11:20.will probably clear out, -- will probably clear at House of Commons

:11:21. > :11:25.business, leaving them acres of time to deal with the House of Lords, who

:11:26. > :11:29.could be much more problematic. But that detail is what we would expect

:11:30. > :11:32.or hope to get from David Davis this afternoon. But an interesting

:11:33. > :11:38.message of defiance, I would suggest, from Number Ten. And you

:11:39. > :11:39.will hear David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, live on BBC News, of

:11:40. > :11:45.course. In the last hour, the UK

:11:46. > :11:49.Supreme Court has ruled that Parliament must give authorisation

:11:50. > :11:51.to the Government before Prime Minister Theresa May can

:11:52. > :12:06.trigger Article 50 to formally Let's get reaction from our

:12:07. > :12:11.politicians here and our voters from around the UK, from the SNP, Stephen

:12:12. > :12:15.Gethins, your reaction? Well, obviously, it is good that

:12:16. > :12:18.Parliament will have a say, disappointed that the devolved

:12:19. > :12:22.administrations will not. Critically, the judge did say that

:12:23. > :12:26.was a political decision. Are we a partnership of equals, do the

:12:27. > :12:30.devolved administration still count? That is a decision for the

:12:31. > :12:35.Government. Theresa Villiers, your government has lost, how do you

:12:36. > :12:39.react? Lord Neuberger is right that this is about process, so the

:12:40. > :12:43.important thing is for Parliament to get on and table Article 50

:12:44. > :12:46.according to the timetable set by the Government, and that is how to

:12:47. > :12:50.respect the result of the referendum. If the Government had

:12:51. > :12:55.not appealed, you could be cracking on. I think we can still stick with

:12:56. > :12:59.the timetable, the good news is the confirmation that this is not a

:13:00. > :13:05.matter for the devolved assemblies. If the Supreme Court had ruled in a

:13:06. > :13:12.different way... As a devolved parliament, you have to keep up with

:13:13. > :13:16.the devolution set up. Critically, the UK Parliament has never

:13:17. > :13:19.legislated for an area that is a responsibility of the Scottish

:13:20. > :13:23.Parliament without the Scottish Parliament's consent. Do you think

:13:24. > :13:27.we should give our consent to the areas under with the Scottish

:13:28. > :13:31.Parliament's responsibility? It is clear that European Union matters

:13:32. > :13:34.are reserved, that is clear in the settlement, and it would have been a

:13:35. > :13:38.radical change to our constitution if the Supreme Court had said

:13:39. > :13:44.something else. Our behalf of the Lib Dems, Tom Brake. This is a very

:13:45. > :13:46.embarrassing result for the Government, because the Supreme

:13:47. > :13:49.Court have said that if Theresa May had progressed in the way she had

:13:50. > :13:58.wanted to, it would have been illegal. So no planning was actually

:13:59. > :14:01.done in respect of this. What the Supreme Court has said, Parliament

:14:02. > :14:06.is sovereign, if the Government are going to come forward with a one

:14:07. > :14:09.line bill, I am not sure that sort of truly reflects what the Supreme

:14:10. > :14:13.Court has said about Parliament being sovereign. So I hope that we

:14:14. > :14:17.will not see the Government attempting to truncate the process,

:14:18. > :14:21.to abandon all the Parliamentary conventions that exist around the

:14:22. > :14:26.timetabling of bills, the time that is allowed to debate them, and I

:14:27. > :14:31.think there is the potential, perhaps around the meaningful vote

:14:32. > :14:35.that Jeremy Corbyn is talking about, to get Labour, the Liberal

:14:36. > :14:40.Democrats, the SNP and indeed some Conservatives on board to really

:14:41. > :14:46.challenge the Government on how they are intending to proceed. Suzanne

:14:47. > :14:49.Evans, Ukip. I am disappointed to hear people continuing with their

:14:50. > :14:53.threats to frustrate this process. The ball is in Parliament's court,

:14:54. > :14:56.it is up to them to respect the will of the people and not keep

:14:57. > :15:02.frustrating this. Please, do what the people wanted you to do, let's

:15:03. > :15:06.get out of the EU as soon as possible. Reaction from you as a

:15:07. > :15:12.voter, good morning. I think the crucial thing to recognise is that

:15:13. > :15:17.this Government does not like scrutiny, we found that yesterday

:15:18. > :15:21.with the Trident misfire. It doesn't like questions, and it doesn't like

:15:22. > :15:27.looking at amendments. It is crucial that Parliament have that ability to

:15:28. > :15:30.proposed amendments to bills. If it is a one line bill, the Government

:15:31. > :15:39.is being pretty much and democratic as anything. -- undemocratic.

:15:40. > :15:46.What about yourself? I'm pleased with the judgement. It is the common

:15:47. > :15:50.sense thing to do, but the work will come after and accept that we have

:15:51. > :15:54.got to trigger Article 50, but that's the process. That's when the

:15:55. > :15:58.work starts. We need to get as much into this Bill that's coming out

:15:59. > :16:03.that enables us to fight. To fight what? Well, I don't particularly

:16:04. > :16:09.want to live in our British kay men islands. I want it to be a country

:16:10. > :16:14.that has industry, that we can people have rights, workers rights,

:16:15. > :16:24.all the things that we got under the European Union. You voted Leave. How

:16:25. > :16:30.do you react to the ruling today? I come from an area what's been

:16:31. > :16:36.blighted, blighted by EU rules. It lost out considerably and a lot of

:16:37. > :16:40.people I know have voted Brexit and supported Ukip purely because for

:16:41. > :16:48.them Labour hasn't represented them. OK. In terms of the ruling today...

:16:49. > :16:52.I will bring it back to that. I think technically, the Government

:16:53. > :17:01.has the ruling, the Government has won because it is still going to

:17:02. > :17:05.happen. It's only a few lead weights along the way. You can place as many

:17:06. > :17:11.clauses as you wish. The Government is determined that it will be no

:17:12. > :17:17.more than two inserted. She wants complete clarity upon this because

:17:18. > :17:21.people in general within the country as a whole, we're tired of the

:17:22. > :17:27.jargon. What's best for us? We know what's best for us. We're sick of

:17:28. > :17:31.the nanny state and we just want to hopefully go along with the correct

:17:32. > :17:35.procedure. I'm quite supportive of what the Government is trying to do

:17:36. > :17:42.because I think they're trying to be honest with people in the only way

:17:43. > :17:50.she can be, Theresa May, I don't think she is a bad Prime Minister. I

:17:51. > :17:53.supported Remain. I think the fact that the unelected House of Lords

:17:54. > :17:57.will have a vote and the Assemblies and the Scottish Parliament won't is

:17:58. > :18:03.a disgrace. Personally very disappointed to hear that from

:18:04. > :18:06.Teresa Villiers who was our Secretary of State for Northern

:18:07. > :18:11.Ireland, who knows the hard Brexit is against our interests and I think

:18:12. > :18:14.it is another example of the disdain that this Tory Government and the

:18:15. > :18:19.last one has shown for Northern Ireland in particular and the

:18:20. > :18:25.devolved regions. I'm going to say thank you to our

:18:26. > :18:28.guests. Thank you for time and your patience. We watched history being

:18:29. > :18:33.made. Let's go back to the Supreme Court and Ben Brown.

:18:34. > :18:39.Yes, Victoria, I've got two of the key lawyers with me here from this

:18:40. > :18:45.case. The lawyers representing the two claimants, Gina Miller the

:18:46. > :18:50.business come and the hairdresser. James, represents Gina Miller,

:18:51. > :18:54.solicitor for Gina Miller and David Greene is a solicitor. You must be

:18:55. > :19:00.delighted, an 8-3 majority? Very, very pleased. Right decision, but

:19:01. > :19:05.very pleased. You can never predict anything, but relieved as well. What

:19:06. > :19:09.about you David, 8-3, were you maybe hoping for a unanimous decision from

:19:10. > :19:12.the justices? From a law of point of view, it doesn't matter whether it

:19:13. > :19:17.is majority or not, that's the decision is majority. That judges

:19:18. > :19:23.are willing and do express their views is a great part of the

:19:24. > :19:27.process. We had an e-mail into the Victoria Derbyshire programme from a

:19:28. > :19:31.viewer saying, "Why do I bother to vote when you have all this legal

:19:32. > :19:35.process?" People think they voted in a referendum for a result and it has

:19:36. > :19:39.been challenged in the courts? We made it clear and the courts made it

:19:40. > :19:44.clear, this is not about shall we withdraw or stay in? It is not about

:19:45. > :19:48.the Brexit or the remain argument. It is purely a point of law and this

:19:49. > :19:54.is about people's rights. I think the message we should get from this,

:19:55. > :19:59.it is about people's rights. For instance, citizens living in France,

:20:00. > :20:03.what are their rights? UK citizens living in France, what does the

:20:04. > :20:08.future hold for them? What about EU citizens living here. It is about

:20:09. > :20:11.family life and education and all those things that affect, this is

:20:12. > :20:16.about rights and individual rights. As I have said previously, I think

:20:17. > :20:21.what the Parliament should be doing is looking at those rights when they

:20:22. > :20:25.consider these issues. It may not be re-running the referendum, James,

:20:26. > :20:27.but it might delay the implementation, the triggering of

:20:28. > :20:34.Article 50 and that will anger some people? Well, it won't delay the

:20:35. > :20:39.triggering at all. The courts made it clear they could accommodate

:20:40. > :20:43.their timetable to the Government's timetable. The Government said they

:20:44. > :20:46.wanted to trigger Article 50 by the end of 2016 and the court said they

:20:47. > :20:50.will have our process done by then. The Government said they want to do

:20:51. > :20:54.it by March and the courts have made sure that their judgement is

:20:55. > :20:58.received in plenty of time to allow president Government to do what it

:20:59. > :21:02.wishes to do. There has been huge pressure on the judges. Enemies of

:21:03. > :21:05.the people was what they were called after the High Court decision and

:21:06. > :21:12.your client Gina Miller, had death threats. A lot of pressure? Yes, and

:21:13. > :21:15.regrettable. As we heard Gina say just now, very regrettable, very

:21:16. > :21:18.upsetting. We should be celebrating this process. It is part of our

:21:19. > :21:23.constitution, the separation of powers is part of the constitution.

:21:24. > :21:27.We all cherish and all citizens in this country cherish and we should

:21:28. > :21:31.be celebrating this process rather than again grating it. You must be

:21:32. > :21:38.glad and your clients must be glad, not only that they've won, but that

:21:39. > :21:42.it's over. Indeed. It's over, but obviously delighted with the result,

:21:43. > :21:46.but even if the result had gone the other way, it is all about the

:21:47. > :21:49.process and what we have had here is a properly regulated process to get

:21:50. > :21:53.to an answer. And that's what matters. As I said, it is not about

:21:54. > :21:57.going in or out, it is about the process and the rule of law. And

:21:58. > :22:00.that's what we've achieved. All right, very good to talk to you

:22:01. > :22:06.both. Congratulations from your point of view on the result.

:22:07. > :22:11.Two of the key solicitors in this case and celebrating that 8-3

:22:12. > :22:18.judgement which they will see as a victory.

:22:19. > :22:25.It is 10.22am. Reaction coming in thick and fast. Let's talk to Keir

:22:26. > :22:32.Starmer. Good morning to you Sir Keir Starmer. We hear Labour will

:22:33. > :22:36.table three amendments, the most tricky a meaningful vote at end of

:22:37. > :22:40.the negotiations. Can you explain to our audience in lay man's terms what

:22:41. > :22:42.that means, please? Firstly, we welcome the judgement. It is really

:22:43. > :22:46.important that Parliament has a proper role. If it is going to have

:22:47. > :22:52.a proper role we need a white paper that sets out the objectives. I know

:22:53. > :22:55.we had a speech, but we need a formal document setting out what the

:22:56. > :22:59.Government is seeking to achieve. We need an ability to hold the

:23:00. > :23:02.Government to account during the two years and Parliament needs a say on

:23:03. > :23:05.the outcome because that's meaningful involvement. The Prime

:23:06. > :23:10.Minister said in her speech that she will offer a vote to Parliament on

:23:11. > :23:14.the final deal. We need to make sure that's a meaningful vote and there

:23:15. > :23:19.is an anxiety if it is a vote between the deal on the table and no

:23:20. > :23:24.deal that wouldn't be meaningful. Meaningful. This is about making

:23:25. > :23:27.sure now it is established that Parliament should have a proper

:23:28. > :23:32.role, that it is a role that means something. OK. I'm sorry to be

:23:33. > :23:38.stupid, but what do you mean by meaningful? We have got to have a

:23:39. > :23:41.vote at a point in which beck still influence the outcome. Not simply,

:23:42. > :23:46.I'm concerned that the Prime Minister might say here is the deal,

:23:47. > :23:50.take it or leave it. It has got to be an appropriate point to make sure

:23:51. > :23:54.there is a degree of influence over the outcome. So you can say this

:23:55. > :23:59.deal is not good enough Mrs May, go back and get a better one? I hope

:24:00. > :24:04.that the Government will seek the best deal for Britain and be able to

:24:05. > :24:09.bring it back to Parliament in a form that is supportable across the

:24:10. > :24:12.House in the best interests and in the national interest. That's what

:24:13. > :24:16.we hull should all ed aiming for, but given that we have got the

:24:17. > :24:19.objectives, we need to test whether the Prime Minister has achieved what

:24:20. > :24:24.she set out it achieve and take a decision then, but what we can't

:24:25. > :24:27.have is very important ruling today, constitutional ruling, telling us

:24:28. > :24:30.that Parliament must have a proper role and then attempt by the

:24:31. > :24:34.Government to minimise the role of Parliament. It has got to be a full

:24:35. > :24:38.and meaningful role. In the end, is your leader going to tell your

:24:39. > :24:44.colleagues, you and your colleagues, to vote to trigger Article 50 at the

:24:45. > :24:49.end of March? Many of my colleagues and I campaigned passionately to

:24:50. > :24:54.stay in the EU. But we accept and respect the outcome and that means

:24:55. > :24:59.that we will not seek to frustrate the process. OK. So those Labour MPs

:25:00. > :25:02.and we've spoken to some already who are going to vote against. Those

:25:03. > :25:07.Labour MPs who rebel, what will happen to them? Well, we haven't

:25:08. > :25:11.made decision about precise voting. We haven't decided how many

:25:12. > :25:15.amendments we will put down. We're having discussions with colleagues.

:25:16. > :25:19.I would just say this - this is a difficult set of decisions for many

:25:20. > :25:25.colleagues who feel very strongly about these issues. And we're

:25:26. > :25:28.handling it cold lej atly and talking about it in the Labour

:25:29. > :25:31.Party. What do you say to voters who voted to leave the European Union,

:25:32. > :25:38.who are watching this ruling this morning and still saying, "Just get

:25:39. > :25:43.on with it." Well, frankly, the Prime Minister could have got on

:25:44. > :25:46.with it 82 days ago. We had the High Court ruling 82 days ago. The Prime

:25:47. > :25:50.Minister could have said that ruling has gone against me, I must involve

:25:51. > :25:54.Parliament, let's just get on with it. We've delayed to this point

:25:55. > :25:58.purely because the Prime Minister wanted to have an appeal to try and

:25:59. > :26:04.stop Parliament having a vote. And so... It sounds like you want to

:26:05. > :26:06.delay it more? If it lies anywhere, it lies with the Prime Minister

:26:07. > :26:16.because we could have been having this Bill in Parliament 82 days ago.

:26:17. > :26:19.Trying to lay any sense of the delay at the floor of the Labour Party

:26:20. > :26:23.when it is the Prime Minister who has taken 82 days to delay by having

:26:24. > :26:28.this appeal at taxpayers cost I might add, it is a little bit

:26:29. > :26:32.unfair. We simply say that Parliament should have a proper role

:26:33. > :26:35.and meaningful role and that's what the Supreme Court ruled and get on

:26:36. > :26:41.with it. Let's have that meaningful role. What adjectives would you use

:26:42. > :26:44.to describe the way Jeremy Corbyn has been handling Brexit in the last

:26:45. > :26:47.weeks and months? Well, we have been clear that we accept the result. We

:26:48. > :26:52.have been clear that the priority for us is jobs and the economy. And

:26:53. > :26:54.because that's so important to working people, to businesses across

:26:55. > :26:58.the country, I have been across the whole of the UK talking to

:26:59. > :27:02.businesses, they're concerned about things like tariffs, about making

:27:03. > :27:09.sure that trade isn't anymore difficult in the few fewer than it

:27:10. > :27:12.is now and we have been been standing up and making the case for

:27:13. > :27:15.them and trade unions, if you look at the messages and the position, it

:27:16. > :27:18.is to respect the outcome, but make sure, make sure that the new

:27:19. > :27:23.relationship between the UK and the EU is the right relationship and it

:27:24. > :27:26.actually works for businesses, for communities, and for working people

:27:27. > :27:31.up and down the country. Has your boss handled it well? Well, I think

:27:32. > :27:34.we have handled it well, but I'm not pretending, I'm not pretending that

:27:35. > :27:39.this is easy for colleagues across the Labour Party. We were a party

:27:40. > :27:43.that campaigned to remain in the EU. I campaigned to remain in. We're

:27:44. > :27:46.accepting the result. We have two-thirds of our MPs in

:27:47. > :27:50.constituencies that voted to leave the EU and one-third in

:27:51. > :27:54.constituencies that voted to remain. Of course, that means there are

:27:55. > :27:57.strongly held views and I'm not pretending they aren't there, but I

:27:58. > :28:00.do think they have to be seen in their context. This isn't a

:28:01. > :28:03.political split in any traditional sense, it is a party working through

:28:04. > :28:07.a series of difficult situations with its MPs.

:28:08. > :28:14.OK, thank you very much for your time, we appreciate it. That was Sir

:28:15. > :28:19.Keir Starmer. We have some Labour voters and some ex-Labour voters.

:28:20. > :28:24.Let me ask you how you think Jeremy Corbyn handled Brexit in the last

:28:25. > :28:30.few weeks and months. I think that he is in a very difficult situation.

:28:31. > :28:40.I think that half the Labour voters voted in and half voted out. He got

:28:41. > :28:42.63% of Labour voters voted in. But I think in Labour heartlands it is

:28:43. > :28:48.very difficult for him and I think that he's just trying to work his

:28:49. > :28:54.way through it. I think he accepts that we have to trigger Article 50.

:28:55. > :29:02.But it is then what happens from that point onwards that we have to

:29:03. > :29:05.worry about, you know. He is leader of her majesty's sop circumstances.

:29:06. > :29:09.It is all well and good, he has to work things out, but we have to deal

:29:10. > :29:15.with the issues here and now. I disagree. I feel like we don't want

:29:16. > :29:19.people who voted Leave to block the process. What Jeremy Corbyn is doing

:29:20. > :29:22.is correct, it is to go through. He is trying toen sure it is done

:29:23. > :29:25.properly. The ruling today was, I was happy with the ruling and I feel

:29:26. > :29:29.it is unfair to say this whole ruling is delaying the process and

:29:30. > :29:34.upsetting leave voters when at the end of the day Leave voters were

:29:35. > :29:37.coerced into voting for something that the Government couldn't legally

:29:38. > :29:44.provide. Whose fault is that? The leave campaigners or the people who

:29:45. > :29:48.wanted to Remain? You voted Ukip at the last election? Corbyn is trying

:29:49. > :29:54.to hold together a party. Part of the party wanted to vote in. Part of

:29:55. > :29:59.it wanted to vote out. Whether it was 2-1, whatever. He's trying to

:30:00. > :30:07.hold together a party to keep that strong opposition. But eventually if

:30:08. > :30:11.it does come to a 2020 election, they will have to vote with their

:30:12. > :30:17.feet whether they like it or not. They will be swayed to vote one way

:30:18. > :30:22.or the other. If their constituents voted out and they are an in person,

:30:23. > :30:25.that's unfortunate because under the Old Labour system, they were given

:30:26. > :30:30.lists of people who they could vote for to represent them in their

:30:31. > :30:36.constituency and now that's backfiring on them. Now, he can't

:30:37. > :30:44.get the people he wants, who he has and what he has as his values.

:30:45. > :30:50.45 minutes ago, the news that the Government lost its historic battle

:30:51. > :30:58.in the Supreme Court, Parliament will have to give consent of the

:30:59. > :31:02.tree -- triggering of Article 50. It will not overturn the referendum

:31:03. > :31:07.result, which saw the UK vote to leave the EU, but it determines

:31:08. > :31:12.which course is lawful. We can talk to John Whittingdale, former Culture

:31:13. > :31:18.Secretary, Conservative MP, a high profile leave campaigner. Iain

:31:19. > :31:23.Duncan Smith is a former Conservative leader and former Work

:31:24. > :31:26.and Pensions Secretary, he has just finished it done like playing a

:31:27. > :31:35.five-a-side football match, it says here! Were you not watching the

:31:36. > :31:44.historic ruling? I watched a replay of it! I have got so more people to

:31:45. > :31:52.introduce, not just MPs, peers will get a vote, so Lord Young boat and

:31:53. > :32:02.Leave, and Baroness Kramer voted remain. -- voted. We have heard that

:32:03. > :32:06.this is damaging, what do you say? I am very relaxed about the decision,

:32:07. > :32:10.there is a frustration amongst people who voted leave that we have

:32:11. > :32:14.not made much progress towards it, but I am pleased that the Government

:32:15. > :32:17.has made clear we will be triggering Article 50, I hope they bill will be

:32:18. > :32:21.passed as quickly as possible, and the one thing which would have

:32:22. > :32:25.potentially held up the process would have been if the Supreme Court

:32:26. > :32:30.had ruled that we had to consult all the devolved administrations, the

:32:31. > :32:35.nations and regions, but they have said that is not necessary. So I

:32:36. > :32:40.think the timetable can be achieved. Iain Duncan Smith, your reaction to

:32:41. > :32:45.the ruling. Well, this is in two parts, you have to understand that

:32:46. > :32:50.there is the European issue, but also the issue about who is supreme,

:32:51. > :32:55.Parliament or the court. This is the easy right now, so I was intrigued

:32:56. > :32:57.that it was a split judgment. I am disappointed that they have told

:32:58. > :33:02.parliament how to run their business, after all there was a vote

:33:03. > :33:06.overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50, so they have stepped into New

:33:07. > :33:13.Territories whereby they are telling Parliament what to do. -- into new

:33:14. > :33:16.territory. That leads to further constitutional questions. The second

:33:17. > :33:30.element, in terms of the European side of it, they were ruling on two

:33:31. > :33:34.issues, they have upheld the English High Court ruling that Parliament

:33:35. > :33:37.should have a vote, and they have gone slightly further. I am

:33:38. > :33:42.disappointed they have taken the step because there are wider

:33:43. > :33:46.constitutional implications. As John said, I expect the Government to

:33:47. > :33:51.bring forward a very simple bill, and to get it through both Houses of

:33:52. > :33:55.Parliament. The Lords should not try and frustrate the vote that was in

:33:56. > :33:59.the House of Commons late last year, and I think we will trigger Article

:34:00. > :34:06.50 in time, the end of March deadline. Ken Clarke is here as

:34:07. > :34:12.well, you must be delighted, but from what I am hearing from your

:34:13. > :34:15.colleagues, it changes nothing. Well, it does restore Parliamentary

:34:16. > :34:22.democracy, wholly predictable, I don't know why the Government

:34:23. > :34:25.bothered to resist it. What they were trying to do was minimise

:34:26. > :34:29.discussion, as we have heard, they will try to have a bill of two lines

:34:30. > :34:33.so that you don't talk about it. Are we going to have new tariffs?

:34:34. > :34:40.Regulatory barriers? Fisheries policies? What is the position of

:34:41. > :34:44.continental students? No, the public have decided, no two Cabinet

:34:45. > :34:48.ministers agree about any of those things, but now Parliament is not

:34:49. > :34:55.allowed to talk about it. It won't last, and once Parliament gets under

:34:56. > :34:59.way, if the Government actually eliminates discussion on the Act of

:35:00. > :35:05.Parliament in order to rush on with it, Parliament, I trust, will start

:35:06. > :35:09.holding the Government to account - the policies, the objectives it is

:35:10. > :35:14.pursuing, and we have got here is to go. The idea that Parliament is

:35:15. > :35:19.suspended for two and a half years, and when the Government has done a

:35:20. > :35:25.deal, then Parliament can vote, that is about the strangest proposal I

:35:26. > :35:32.have heard. Ian Duncan Smith is tied to come back. Kent knows very well

:35:33. > :35:35.we are bringing forward the repeal of the 1972 European Communities

:35:36. > :35:39.Act, covering every single element of our relationship with the

:35:40. > :35:42.European Union, so I don't quite understand, going forward, there

:35:43. > :35:47.will be a vast amount of the date in both Houses of Parliament beyond

:35:48. > :35:51.whatever this very simple bill may be, this is only about triggering

:35:52. > :35:55.Article 50. We will have more than ample discussion about elements that

:35:56. > :35:59.the Government may be engaged in, what Parliament think they should or

:36:00. > :36:03.should not do, that will all be there, as he knows, and I know,

:36:04. > :36:09.having both been involved in Maastricht, the public will be sick

:36:10. > :36:13.and tired of debating it. You and I have debated these things very

:36:14. > :36:16.often, as you say! The Great Repeal Bill, apparently we are not go to

:36:17. > :36:20.change any of the rules, we are getting rid of the European rules,

:36:21. > :36:25.but we can't think of one we want to change at the moment, so we're

:36:26. > :36:29.making them all British rules. We will take a long time debating

:36:30. > :36:32.whether they should be British or European rules. I hope it gives the

:36:33. > :36:38.opportunity not just for discussion, but normally you and I have been in

:36:39. > :36:41.government together for four years, we were in government because we

:36:42. > :36:47.could command a majority in parliament for the policies we are

:36:48. > :36:52.pursuing. Where the Great Repeal Bill will give us the opportunity to

:36:53. > :37:00.make the Government and Strobel for the policy it is pursuing an

:37:01. > :37:05.environmental issues. -- answerable. Well, it will. It won't, in the way

:37:06. > :37:09.it was described, it was a very good slogan at the party conference. Why

:37:10. > :37:14.don't we have ordinary Parliamentary democracy? When you were opposing

:37:15. > :37:18.Maastricht, you took up weeks and weeks and weeks of Parliamentary

:37:19. > :37:23.time trying to defeat the Government on its policy. You are saying I am

:37:24. > :37:28.ordered to abandon my lifelong convictions and not challenge the

:37:29. > :37:32.Government. If you have lost this referendum, you would be behaving in

:37:33. > :37:40.the way you did up to Maastricht. Well, Ken, I fully agree with you!

:37:41. > :37:43.If we had won in Maastricht, nothing would have happened, because we

:37:44. > :37:49.could not have gone back to the EU and said, sorry, we don't agree any

:37:50. > :37:54.more, that deal was done. You could have stopped it. But Ken, you know

:37:55. > :37:57.very well, in a way Parliament works, the repeal of the 1972

:37:58. > :38:04.European Communities Act will allow you to debate and amend anything you

:38:05. > :38:08.like on every element of this, so you and I both know there will be ad

:38:09. > :38:12.nauseam debate about this, and we will both be, I'm sure, in studios

:38:13. > :38:17.discussing how Parliament voted the night before more than we want to

:38:18. > :38:21.be! Let me bring in the voters from around the UK, listening to former

:38:22. > :38:24.Conservative colleagues debating this. When you hear Iain Duncan

:38:25. > :38:28.Smith and Ken Clarke talking about this in these terms, what are you

:38:29. > :38:33.thinking? That epitomises the problem with the referendum debate

:38:34. > :38:37.as a whole. It became about personalities. Now, the British

:38:38. > :38:40.public made their decision, and I think what is important now is that

:38:41. > :38:45.there is enough scrutiny in the process to make sure that the

:38:46. > :38:49.decision is not one that is of self harm to the country. I think the

:38:50. > :38:55.decision today shows that. There is no political agenda from the judges,

:38:56. > :38:58.they are not self appointed, that is very dangerous language, and you

:38:59. > :39:06.start to play with fire when you get into this territory. We need to make

:39:07. > :39:13.sure the decision is respected. Carl, sorry, Carl, go ahead. I think

:39:14. > :39:18.that just any issue of debate about delaying it or trying to get in a

:39:19. > :39:21.way of it, I don't think that is particularly relevant. I don't think

:39:22. > :39:27.any politician worth their salt is really wanting to stop it, well,

:39:28. > :39:32.there are a few, sorry. You will vote against it, Ken Clarke. I

:39:33. > :39:37.always go with my best judgment in the national interest, I will vote

:39:38. > :39:40.against, but I will be a tiny minority of eccentrics! Look at the

:39:41. > :39:45.Daily Mail, the modern politicians, they look at opinion polls, they are

:39:46. > :39:48.ordered to vote. Once we have got past that process, as somebody has

:39:49. > :39:55.just said, the devil is in the detail. The referendum was the

:39:56. > :40:05.Borazon Dave show, we didn't discuss fisheries policies. -- Boris and

:40:06. > :40:09.Dave. The result of the referendum was to leave, I believe in

:40:10. > :40:12.democracy, the decision was to leave, and my view is that we have

:40:13. > :40:18.to back the result of the referendum. Baroness Kramer, for

:40:19. > :40:23.give me, but some of our audience will be thinking, what has it got to

:40:24. > :40:27.do with you two? We worked together in the mid 1980s, and our views have

:40:28. > :40:31.not changed one whit, we had the same argument back then. It has a

:40:32. > :40:38.great deal to do with me and Baroness Kramer, we are citizens of

:40:39. > :40:49.the UK. I voted, 40 years ago, to enter a free-trade area. Nobody ever

:40:50. > :40:52.asked me, from that day until this, whether I wanted to be part even of

:40:53. > :40:55.the EU. What are you going to do when this gets to the Lords? I am

:40:56. > :40:58.going to vote for leave, I will do, and if the Lords as a whole do not

:40:59. > :41:01.vote in that way, they will be bringing on Lords reform much

:41:02. > :41:05.quicker. The vote that will come to the Lords will not be yes or no, but

:41:06. > :41:10.whether or not we scrutinise this, and whether we try to introduce

:41:11. > :41:14.amendments. I will be strongly voting to amend, because you only

:41:15. > :41:17.have to listen, almost everybody who voted for Brexit had a different

:41:18. > :41:21.view of what it was going to deliver, and I think the British

:41:22. > :41:27.people need to see the deal at the end, and the British people that

:41:28. > :41:32.need to make a final decision. You are agreeing with Baroness Kramer.

:41:33. > :41:36.We are elected to parliament to have a debate and hold the Government to

:41:37. > :41:40.account, about important decisions. That is not to say that we should

:41:41. > :41:43.thwart the referendum, we must uphold the referendum result. The

:41:44. > :41:48.other thing we should be aware of is that once Article 50 is triggered,

:41:49. > :41:52.this is a one-way process. There is not a stop or handbrake, we are

:41:53. > :41:57.going to be leaving from that point, so it is important that everyone

:41:58. > :42:04.involved recognises that, and we have the opportunity to investigate

:42:05. > :42:06.the process in the interests of constituents. Now until the end of

:42:07. > :42:10.March, is that enough time? It is the key window to have a debate, but

:42:11. > :42:15.there will be two more years after that to hold the Government to

:42:16. > :42:22.account. These sectors that are affected... The Lords are an

:42:23. > :42:26.amending body, we are not elected, we are appointed. This is a yes or

:42:27. > :42:29.no decision, and when legislation goes through, there is time to

:42:30. > :42:36.amend, but this is not the right time for the Lords to start saying

:42:37. > :42:40.no. Baroness Kramer? It is a key thing to amend, and we will be

:42:41. > :42:46.looking to amend. He is saying it is the wrong time. Entirely the wrong

:42:47. > :42:51.time! There will be some who take that view, many others in the Lords

:42:52. > :42:56.are very active and they say that it is absolutely our role, our job, the

:42:57. > :43:01.reason we are there is to scrutinise and improve. Are you prepared for

:43:02. > :43:08.the criticism which will undoubtedly come, where opponents will say you

:43:09. > :43:11.are unelected, trying to thwart the will of the people? I have taken an

:43:12. > :43:20.oath to scrutinise and to improve, and others will take that view.

:43:21. > :43:25.These are the words - scrutinise and improve, not to change, but this is

:43:26. > :43:29.yes or no. Improvement is amending, and whether we succeed or not is an

:43:30. > :43:35.entirely different issue, but what is important is this is that it is a

:43:36. > :43:39.bigger message to the Government today, which is that it has to

:43:40. > :43:42.recognise the importance of Parliamentary democracy, and we have

:43:43. > :43:44.seen this government before trying to get around Parliamentary

:43:45. > :43:48.democracy, trying to sideline Parliament, and it will be crucial.

:43:49. > :43:51.We talked about the Great Repeal Bill, there will be a lot of

:43:52. > :43:56.discussions about whether it has clauses that let the Government do

:43:57. > :44:02.exactly what it wants. It is the wrong title, it is not going to

:44:03. > :44:05.repeal anything, is it? It is just going to subsume things into British

:44:06. > :44:10.law. John Whittingdale... All kinds of things, this is a clear message,

:44:11. > :44:14.we live in a Parliamentary democracy, Parliament has that

:44:15. > :44:19.responsibility. Democracy is the word. The idea that Parliament is

:44:20. > :44:23.not talking about the EU and how we leave is ridiculous, we debated

:44:24. > :44:28.every week. I sit on the Brexit select committee in Parliament which

:44:29. > :44:33.is scrutinising the Government's process for negotiating exit. Now,

:44:34. > :44:36.the House of Commons is an elected chamber, and the House of Lords has

:44:37. > :44:40.to accept the will of the House of Commons. In this case it goes

:44:41. > :44:44.further, both houses have to accept the will of the British people as

:44:45. > :44:48.clearly expressed, and I have to say that I agree with David Young, if

:44:49. > :44:51.the House of Lords tries to frustrate the will of people

:44:52. > :44:56.expressed in the referendum, than I think the House of Lords is not

:44:57. > :45:02.going to survive. Iain Duncan Smith. I agree completely with that, the

:45:03. > :45:05.point here is that I am all for debate, we will have lots of debate,

:45:06. > :45:10.we will have time for that, but what I think would be unacceptable is if

:45:11. > :45:14.the Lords then decide to block this, because it was the decision of the

:45:15. > :45:18.British public. Take the Lib Dem position, Baroness Kramer, they have

:45:19. > :45:22.a handful of MPs in the House of Commons, but over a hundred peers in

:45:23. > :45:26.the House of Lords, so they are disproportionately represented in

:45:27. > :45:29.the Lords, and they shouldn't use that is proportionate representation

:45:30. > :45:33.to thwart the will of the House of Commons ultimately. By all means

:45:34. > :45:37.debated, but be very careful that the disproportion and position that

:45:38. > :45:40.they have got should not be wheeled in deliberately to try and block the

:45:41. > :45:44.will of the House of Commons and ultimately of the British people.

:45:45. > :45:55.Try and use that power to amend and that's key. A final word. No one is

:45:56. > :45:58.going to block in the House of Commons. I'm sure there will be lots

:45:59. > :46:02.of general debate. The Government are trying to provide lots of

:46:03. > :46:05.debate, the question is in the end the Government has to get

:46:06. > :46:10.Parliament's approval for the policies it is pursuing, not the

:46:11. > :46:15.details of the negotiations, but the objectives it's going to seek. It

:46:16. > :46:25.hasn't decided, they haven't agreed amongst themselves what their

:46:26. > :46:31.objectives are. Stop there. Stop there. Thank you very much and thank

:46:32. > :46:36.you for your patience as well. So we've heard the view of various

:46:37. > :46:40.Conservatives. Plus, of course, a Lib Dem peer, what about Labour?

:46:41. > :46:43.Norman is at Westminster. Just recap their position, please, Norman?

:46:44. > :46:48.Well, Jeremy Corbyn's position is that Labour MPs will not seek to

:46:49. > :46:54.frustrate Article 50, but he does want to table serial key amendments.

:46:55. > :46:58.One guaranteeing access to the single market, two ensuring workers

:46:59. > :47:01.rights are protected and Labour are after what they call a meaningful

:47:02. > :47:05.vote. What does that mean? The Government said OK, you can have a

:47:06. > :47:08.vote at the end of the whole process when Theresa May has done a deal,

:47:09. > :47:14.she will come back to the Commons and say, "Here it is, what do you

:47:15. > :47:19.think?" MPs with vote for that or reject it and if they reject it, we

:47:20. > :47:24.are walking away from the European Union with no deal. Labour wants to

:47:25. > :47:28.have an opportunity to grab Mrs May by the collar at the last minute and

:47:29. > :47:32.say, "Hang on, that's not good enough. You've got to go back to

:47:33. > :47:37.Brussels and do better." But let's be honest, Labour are

:47:38. > :47:41.profoundly divided over Brexit. I mean, you had Keir Starmer on saying

:47:42. > :47:44.it is a very difficult issue for my colleagues. Oh boy, it is a really

:47:45. > :47:47.difficult issue because the party is divided from the very top to the

:47:48. > :47:50.bottom, through the Shadow Cabinet, through the Parliamentary party,

:47:51. > :47:55.through ordinary parties, amongst Labour voters. Basically between

:47:56. > :48:02.traditional working class Labour voters who are pro-Brexit,

:48:03. > :48:06.protighter controls on I will immigration and the middle-class

:48:07. > :48:10.supporters who by and large are pro the EU and Labour is trying to sort

:48:11. > :48:16.of face both ways and you get a sense, I have been sent some e-mails

:48:17. > :48:19.by some of the Labour Leave MPs who are signalling a warning to those

:48:20. > :48:25.Labour MPs who might be tempted to vote against Article 50. Kate Howey

:48:26. > :48:29.says, "If Labour MPs are seen to be frustrating the will of the people

:48:30. > :48:35.by opposing Article 50 then they will lose their seats Q says Kate

:48:36. > :48:39.Howey. Another MP says, "My colleagues in the House of Commons

:48:40. > :48:43.need to realise if they are seen to frustrate the will of the British

:48:44. > :48:51.people, Labour could find themselves in a position where they will never

:48:52. > :49:01.form a Government again." Let's talk to four Labour MPs.

:49:02. > :49:07.Mr Gapes and Mr Stringer voted to leave the EU. So, I mean when it

:49:08. > :49:10.comes to you voting in the Commons, Graham Stringer, yes, to Article 50

:49:11. > :49:15.or no to Article 50 Article 50? Obviously yes. I campaigned to come

:49:16. > :49:18.out. We won the debate. The British people have decided, in all the

:49:19. > :49:21.previous debates in the Commons, there was never a question that it

:49:22. > :49:25.wasn't being handed over to the British people. Obviously Parliament

:49:26. > :49:29.has to implement that. I'm pleased with the decision today. I

:49:30. > :49:32.campaigned for this country to become a sof governing country and a

:49:33. > :49:39.democracy again. So that means that Parliament should have a vote. OK.

:49:40. > :49:43.Rushanara Ali? I'm going to make my decision based on what's in our

:49:44. > :49:50.national economic interests. What is that? I represent a seat which

:49:51. > :49:53.borders on Canary Wharf and the City of London, some 47,000 jobs in the

:49:54. > :49:59.financial services are at risk. Thousands of jobs have an announced

:50:00. > :50:02.by some of those sectors to leave our country. Now, in the end my

:50:03. > :50:07.judgement will be based on whether we have access to the single market,

:50:08. > :50:13.whether our rights are protected, we cannot have a race to the bottom.

:50:14. > :50:18.Workers rights will be protected. Well, we will see about that. Those

:50:19. > :50:23.would be the tests because people won't thank us whether they voted

:50:24. > :50:27.for or against if we damage our economy and our prosperity going

:50:28. > :50:31.forward. OK. Well, the referendum said we would leave the European

:50:32. > :50:34.Union. It didn't say we would leave the customs union and leave the

:50:35. > :50:40.single market. I think that we are going to be put on an escalator by

:50:41. > :50:43.this process by the speech of Theresa May which basically

:50:44. > :50:47.Parliament won't be able to stop and we will either be faced with a

:50:48. > :50:51.position which is very bad for our economy and our national interests

:50:52. > :50:56.or an even worse one of no deal at all. Does that mean you're going to

:50:57. > :51:01.vote against triggering Article 50? I am going to vote against because

:51:02. > :51:05.we have got no White Paper and no plan and once we are on the

:51:06. > :51:10.escalator we can't stop it. It is a no from me. I replaced a Lib Dem in

:51:11. > :51:13.Bermondsey and Southwark. I made a simple pledge to my constituents I

:51:14. > :51:18.won't vote for anything I believe with harm their interests and we are

:51:19. > :51:21.seeing the harm in my constituency from manufacturers and importers and

:51:22. > :51:25.from the financial sector of the referendum result alone. What harm

:51:26. > :51:29.are you seeing? Jobs will be moved to Frankfurt and Paris from my

:51:30. > :51:33.constituency. I met with importers of Greek, Polish and Spanish

:51:34. > :51:36.produce, they have already seen a 15% increase in their prices to

:51:37. > :51:40.import goods as a result of the pound crashing since the referendum.

:51:41. > :51:43.This is before we even get into the worst deal that Theresa May has

:51:44. > :51:47.indicated she wants from the negotiations. What do you say to

:51:48. > :51:52.your colleagues, Graham Stringer who will vote against the will of the

:51:53. > :51:57.people? They didn't make those arguments. I have had the second

:51:58. > :52:01.reading debate and those arguments were not made when we decided to

:52:02. > :52:04.give the people the choice, it was all about the people having the

:52:05. > :52:08.right to choose and the Labour Party recommended them to vote to stay and

:52:09. > :52:12.they rejected that. The country is against all the predictions of those

:52:13. > :52:18.people who wanted to remain. The economy has done very well since we

:52:19. > :52:23.decided to leave partly because, no, but the preDibs was on the 24th June

:52:24. > :52:29.the economy would go down to the tubes. We have been told repeatedly

:52:30. > :52:32.that it is about the economy, it will be bad for the economy. All

:52:33. > :52:37.predictions have been wrong. Reducing the value of the pound is

:52:38. > :52:40.actually creating jobs. You're ignoring the evidence from this

:52:41. > :52:44.gentleman's constituency. There will be pluses and minuses. They just

:52:45. > :52:47.have to suck it up. There have been always been pluses and minuses in

:52:48. > :52:51.the EU because jobs have been destroyed by the EU because of

:52:52. > :52:55.regulations of different types. What I would like to say to all four of

:52:56. > :52:58.you. Labour has this reputation of being spineless. The three of you,

:52:59. > :53:02.thank you for taking a stand for the people in your constituencies. I

:53:03. > :53:05.think Jeremy Corbyn is doing a very sensible thing in stating that

:53:06. > :53:10.Labour MPs, you know, he might put the whip out, we don't know about

:53:11. > :53:14.that yet, but it is his right as a party leader of a party that is

:53:15. > :53:17.divided by this to let the people and the MPs vote according to their

:53:18. > :53:22.consciences and their constituents. It is not a question of stopping the

:53:23. > :53:25.EU, us leaving the EU, that will go through anyway, we know that, enough

:53:26. > :53:30.of the Tories are going to vote that way anyway, so thank you to you

:53:31. > :53:33.three for taking a stand. Without a coherent position of the Opposition

:53:34. > :53:37.how can the Government be held to account? It is not going to happen

:53:38. > :53:41.so you have got parties like the SNP or the Liberal Democrats providing

:53:42. > :53:44.the opposition in place of Labour. This isn't a question of opposition

:53:45. > :53:47.or Government for me, it's a question of the future of our

:53:48. > :53:51.country in regards to what we get at the end of this deal. It's not a

:53:52. > :53:54.question of just disagreeing with the Government for the sake of the

:53:55. > :53:59.Government. I want to bring in another guest if I may? The case

:54:00. > :54:05.against the Government has been led by an investment banger and

:54:06. > :54:08.philanthropist, Gina Miller. They challenged the Government's

:54:09. > :54:14.presumption that it had the right to trigger Article 50. One of the

:54:15. > :54:19.supporters is Charlie mullens, the head of Pimlico Plumbers. He helped

:54:20. > :54:23.fund the case. Hello Mr Mullens. Good morning. So even with MPs

:54:24. > :54:27.getting a vote, ministers don't expect anything to change, the UK

:54:28. > :54:33.will begin the process of leaving the EU, triggered at the end of

:54:34. > :54:41.March, what was the point of it all? Whether they were legally entitled

:54:42. > :54:45.to trigger Article 50. With Parliament involved hopefully we can

:54:46. > :54:49.get a softer Brexit. That's your motivation. Do you think that's

:54:50. > :54:55.realistic? Given what Mrs May has said? Well, yeah. I mean, of course,

:54:56. > :55:01.it's realistic, I mean Theresa May and the Government can't just get on

:55:02. > :55:05.with it now and do what they want and form an hard Brexit. We need to

:55:06. > :55:09.do the best what's for the UK and for everybody in Britain and I

:55:10. > :55:12.believe now that Parliament being involved that's what is going to

:55:13. > :55:18.happen. A softer Brexit to you, means what? Well, ideally still

:55:19. > :55:25.trade with the single market and still have free movement and still

:55:26. > :55:32.trade with the customs unionment we don't cut ourselves off completely

:55:33. > :55:36.from the EU. It would be madness to come away, 500 million customers,

:55:37. > :55:40.now we can have a soft Brexit which would be better for everybody in

:55:41. > :55:47.Britain. Remind us how you voted in the referendum? I'm a Remainor. Bev,

:55:48. > :55:52.you want to talk to him. I think Graham Stringer is right, the

:55:53. > :55:55.economy is doing fine, thank you. But don't loose sight of the fact

:55:56. > :56:01.that we're paying down a deficit. You just said that imports have

:56:02. > :56:08.reduced great because the pound has gone weaker. OK, twhaes we want. No,

:56:09. > :56:12.no, I didn't say that. No, I said importing is costing more. It is not

:56:13. > :56:23.that people are using... Fine and it costs more, we bring less in. You

:56:24. > :56:36.cannot make chorizo in the UK. It is a Spanish produce. But this is an

:56:37. > :56:43.English country. Go ahead. I'm from Redcar. In October 2015 we lost our

:56:44. > :56:47.steelworks. Thousands of jobs. That was because the EU state aid rules

:56:48. > :56:50.stopped our Government from saving the steelworks, your Government

:56:51. > :56:55.didn't save your steelworks in 2009. What do you say to those people that

:56:56. > :56:58.was the year that stopped them? If you think that outside of the

:56:59. > :57:01.European Union we're going to be able to compete with Chinese imports

:57:02. > :57:05.into the European Union then sadly, we're very much mistaken. There was

:57:06. > :57:09.a risk that, you know, at the moment we haven't left. We have got two

:57:10. > :57:13.years negotiations to come out of the European Union. We have got

:57:14. > :57:16.another five years, manufacturing jobs in particular and steel are

:57:17. > :57:22.lost whilst we even negotiate the new terms of any agreement. If we

:57:23. > :57:28.stay in the EU, you will re-open Redcar steelworks? My position I

:57:29. > :57:33.will be opposing triggering Article 50 but we're not in Government. You

:57:34. > :57:41.never will be. I hope, I very much hope I will be.

:57:42. > :57:45.The European Union actually put tariffs on Chinese steel that the

:57:46. > :57:49.British Conservative Government, the British Conservative Government were

:57:50. > :57:54.not in favour of that and the fact is, it's our national Government

:57:55. > :57:59.that sold out Redcar. A final word. Hang on, a final word from Charlie

:58:00. > :58:03.mullens. Sorry, it is a really bad line, what did you say? I was asking

:58:04. > :58:08.you for your final word on funding this case. Final word is, the result

:58:09. > :58:12.we got today was always going to be that way. We now need to move on and

:58:13. > :58:16.get the best Brexit we can for the UK by getting Parliament involved

:58:17. > :58:19.and now we just need to move on and Brexit. OK. Thank you very much.

:58:20. > :58:23.Thank you. Thank you for coming on the programme. Thank you for your

:58:24. > :58:31.patience and time this morning. Plenty more reaction to today's

:58:32. > :58:33.Supreme Court result on today's BBC News. I'm back tomorrow. Have

:58:34. > :58:45.It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:58:46. > :58:48.it feels much more violent, dark and exciting.