25/01/2017

:00:00. > :00:14.This morning, in an exclusive interview a mum who was at high risk

:00:15. > :00:16.of being murdered by her abusive ex-husband tells this programme

:00:17. > :00:18.a social worker disclosed the location of her secret

:00:19. > :00:27.The woman was subjected to violent revenge attacks as a result.

:00:28. > :00:36.He said it was impossible to safeguard us and keep our address

:00:37. > :00:38.safe and he said losing your life is not worth seeking justice and he

:00:39. > :00:41.said ultimately that's going to happen.

:00:42. > :00:42.We'll bring you that full interview at 9.15am.

:00:43. > :00:45.Also on the programme, "I swear to tell the post truth,

:00:46. > :00:48.the alternative truth and nothing like the truth" - that's how

:00:49. > :00:50.satirical magazine Private Eye mocks Donald Trump's

:00:51. > :00:53.Overnight there have been more clashes between Trump's spokesman

:00:54. > :01:05.Look Jeff, I've asked and answered this question twice. He believes

:01:06. > :01:08.what he believes based on the information he has provided.

:01:09. > :01:12.REPORTER: What does that mean for democracy. If he does believe that,

:01:13. > :01:15.what does it mean for democracy? I've answered your question.

:01:16. > :01:18.So how will the media and Democrats carry on trying

:01:19. > :01:21.And a North Korean diplomat who defected last year

:01:22. > :01:26.from its London embassy claims its leader Kim Jong-un

:01:27. > :01:28.would be prepared to attack Los Angeles with nuclear weapons

:01:29. > :01:35.if his survival in power depended on it.

:01:36. > :01:51.Kim Jong-un, I think, will press the button of this dangerous, you know,

:01:52. > :01:56.the weapons when he thinks that his rule and his time is threatened.

:01:57. > :02:12.As always we'll bring you the latest breaking news and developing stories

:02:13. > :02:23.Later we'll be covering a story which the govt has been accused

:02:24. > :02:39.Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

:02:40. > :02:43.Our top story today, President Trump says he has a "big

:02:44. > :02:45.day" planned on national security today which will include

:02:46. > :02:49.an announcement on building a wall on the US border with Mexico.

:02:50. > :02:51.Our correspondent in Washington, David Willis, has more.

:02:52. > :02:53.We're going to have our borders nice and strong.

:02:54. > :03:01.It was the soundtrack to Donald Trump's unorthodox

:03:02. > :03:03.campaign for president, a call to build a wall

:03:04. > :03:08.along America's southern border with Mexico.

:03:09. > :03:11.Now he seems set to press ahead with measures he believes are vital

:03:12. > :03:13.to stemming the illegal flow of immigrants into

:03:14. > :03:19.The president, on his Twitter account, said simply,

:03:20. > :03:22."Big day planned on national security tomorrow.

:03:23. > :03:25.Among many other things, we will build the wall."

:03:26. > :03:27.He's about to make Mexico pay for it, what's more,

:03:28. > :03:31.although the Mexican government has refused to do so.

:03:32. > :03:34.Later in the week, to round off a busy start to his presidency,

:03:35. > :03:38.Mr Trump is expected to sign executive orders closing America's

:03:39. > :03:41.borders to refugees, and limiting access to citizens

:03:42. > :03:44.from seven African and Middle Eastern countries -

:03:45. > :03:46.countries the administration believes export terrorism.

:03:47. > :03:49.They are mainly Muslim countries, but the mantra of the Trump

:03:50. > :03:57.A country that traditionally has opened its doors

:03:58. > :04:00.to immigrants is about to head in the opposite direction.

:04:01. > :04:06.President Trump has also re-ignited a major environmental dispute

:04:07. > :04:15.He's used executive orders to sign into action moves to re-launch

:04:16. > :04:17.projects to build controversial oil pipelines in North

:04:18. > :04:23.Protests against the plans have already begun with demonstrations

:04:24. > :04:32.The President has also reportedly banned staff at America's

:04:33. > :04:35.Environmental Protection Agency from posting on social media.

:04:36. > :04:38.While a series of tweets on climate change from the twitter account

:04:39. > :04:41.of the Badlands National Park in South Dakota have been deleted.

:04:42. > :04:44.Meanwhile, the new administration's war of words with the US media shows

:04:45. > :05:01.The relationship is not getting any better? We have seen the spats

:05:02. > :05:04.overnight in the White House briefing room. President Trump has

:05:05. > :05:09.been accused of spending a lot of time on issues which are non core

:05:10. > :05:13.issues. We had the row with the alternative facts about the size of

:05:14. > :05:17.the inauguration. Now he's repeating the claims that he would have won

:05:18. > :05:23.the popular vote if it wasn't for three to five million illegal votes

:05:24. > :05:28.that he said were placed. The media says there is no basis for this, but

:05:29. > :05:32.he said that this is a, his spokesperson says this is a belief

:05:33. > :05:35.he maintains. Now, obviously Trump won with the electoral college

:05:36. > :05:40.votes, but Hillary Clinton got almost three million more votes than

:05:41. > :05:45.he did. Now, he is saying the reason she got the extra votes was because

:05:46. > :05:48.three and five million people voted illegally. The New York Times is

:05:49. > :05:53.never a friend of Donald Trump said this is a lie. He's saying this is

:05:54. > :05:56.really bothering the president because he feels there is all the

:05:57. > :06:00.stories that are undermining his presidency. OK, thank you. We're

:06:01. > :06:01.speaking to a representative of the New York Times after 10am. Thank you

:06:02. > :06:04.very much, Keith. Joanna is in the BBC

:06:05. > :06:06.Newsroom with a summary MPs have increased pressure

:06:07. > :06:12.on Theresa May to set out her negotiating position

:06:13. > :06:15.on Brexit in a White Paper to be It follow yesterday's

:06:16. > :06:20.Supreme Court judgment which ruled that the Prime Minister

:06:21. > :06:23.must give parliament a vote before triggering Article 50, the formal

:06:24. > :06:29.process for leaving the EU. It's thought a Brexit Bill could be

:06:30. > :06:36.introduced as early as tomorrow. Here's our political

:06:37. > :06:37.correspondent Tom Bateman. After the judges ruled only

:06:38. > :06:40.Parliament can start Brexit, today a warning for MPs -

:06:41. > :06:43.don't try to derail the plan. The Supreme Court judgement means

:06:44. > :06:46.a Bill on triggering Article 50, the start of Britain's exit process,

:06:47. > :06:50.must be put before MPs and Lords. The Government says legislation

:06:51. > :06:54.paving the way for Brexit That'll be voted on by both

:06:55. > :07:00.Houses of Parliament. Theresa May wants Article 50

:07:01. > :07:02.triggered by the end of March. Then Britain has two

:07:03. > :07:04.years to leave the EU. The point of no return was passed

:07:05. > :07:11.on 23rd June last year. Labour say they won't block Article

:07:12. > :07:15.50, but want to amend the Bill to give MPs more control

:07:16. > :07:19.of the process. If necessary, there will be

:07:20. > :07:21.hand-to-hand combat on this. We need to make sure that we get

:07:22. > :07:25.the best deal on behalf of the whole country and she can't say she acts

:07:26. > :07:29.on behalf of the whole country. Theresa May also faces opposition

:07:30. > :07:32.from some of her own MPs who want a formal exit document to be

:07:33. > :07:35.debated, but for now at least, ministers believe they are on track

:07:36. > :07:38.to get Brexit triggered A mother of two on the run

:07:39. > :07:53.from her violent ex-husband has told this programme how a social worker

:07:54. > :07:55.disclosed the location of her safe house twice,

:07:56. > :07:58.leading to a vicious revenge attack Ivy, which is not her real name,

:07:59. > :08:03.was considered by police to be She told Victoria she was let down

:08:04. > :08:07.by nearly every agency supposed In the end police advised her

:08:08. > :08:13.to drop the investigation into her ex as they couldn't

:08:14. > :08:18.guarantee her safety. You can hear Victoria's interview at

:08:19. > :08:24.9.15am. Grammar school headteachers

:08:25. > :08:27.in England have warned that they may ask parents for hundreds of pounds

:08:28. > :08:30.a year to cope with funding cuts. The Grammar School Heads Association

:08:31. > :08:32.says proposed changes to school funding will see a majority

:08:33. > :08:34.of them lose money. A number of Conservative MPs

:08:35. > :08:37.are urging the government But the Department for Education

:08:38. > :08:40.said it was ending a postcode Women who have had a third child due

:08:41. > :08:47.to being raped will now have to prove what happened to avoid

:08:48. > :08:50.losing money through new tax From April, tax credits will be

:08:51. > :08:53.limited to a family's The Government published

:08:54. > :08:59.a new so-called "rape clause" on Friday exempting women whose

:09:00. > :09:02.third or subsequent child was born The move has been

:09:03. > :09:05.described by campaigners The Government says it was

:09:06. > :09:10."important to have an exception Women are experiencing widespread

:09:11. > :09:15.discrimination when it comes to dress codes at work,

:09:16. > :09:18.according to a parliamentary report. MPs heard from hundreds of women

:09:19. > :09:20.who reported that the codes They began an inquiry

:09:21. > :09:24.after a receptionist was sent home A delayed upgrade to the radio

:09:25. > :09:35.system, used by the emergency services in England,

:09:36. > :09:39.Scotland and Wales, may end up costing taxpayers

:09:40. > :09:41.?475 million a year. MPs on the Public Accounts Committee

:09:42. > :09:44.say the planned new system isn't used by any other country and needs

:09:45. > :09:47.to be properly tested. The service, which will use 4G

:09:48. > :09:50.and EE, was supposed to be ready last year but won't be

:09:51. > :09:53.available until 2019. At the moment, at the time

:09:54. > :09:56.we had our hearing, there was no deal struck,

:09:57. > :09:58.and there still is not with Transport for London

:09:59. > :10:00.about the London Underground, and there are still question marks

:10:01. > :10:02.about other undergrounds If it doesn't work underground,

:10:03. > :10:06.then it's a real risk to both people and our emergency services

:10:07. > :10:09.who really need to contact each other in real time in case

:10:10. > :10:15.of emergencies such as 7/7. An RNLI lifeboat station

:10:16. > :10:17.in Yorkshire has found itself with an unexpected new crew member -

:10:18. > :10:21.a fox named Basil. Basil befriended the RNLI team

:10:22. > :10:23.after becoming a regular They say he's not yet been on any

:10:24. > :10:30.actual rescues but as you can see, he could well be handling

:10:31. > :10:33.the station's media inquiries given his obvious fondness

:10:34. > :10:36.for the TV cameras! That's a summary of

:10:37. > :10:38.the latest BBC News. Do get in touch with us

:10:39. > :10:45.throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria LIVE,

:10:46. > :10:48.and if you text, you will be charged Let's get some sport with Reshmin

:10:49. > :11:00.at the BBC Sport Centre. The British Number One is out

:11:01. > :11:10.of the Australian Open. She was the only Brit

:11:11. > :11:12.left in the competition, but Konta was simply outplayed

:11:13. > :11:15.in her quarter final match. With the six-time

:11:16. > :11:16.champion Serena Williams. Konta had been on a nine-match

:11:17. > :11:19.winning streak but came up short in her first meeting

:11:20. > :11:21.with the 22-time She lost it in straight

:11:22. > :11:24.sets 6-2, 6-3. They were out on court

:11:25. > :11:26.for just over an hour. So Williams is now on the hunt

:11:27. > :11:30.for a 23rd title and what would be Tough for Konta, of course,

:11:31. > :11:38.but she has plenty to be proud of. She hadn't even dropped

:11:39. > :11:42.a set all tournament. Who thinks the future at Manchester

:11:43. > :11:47.United looks bright? When Sir Alex Ferguson speaks,

:11:48. > :11:51.the footballing world stands to attention

:11:52. > :11:53.and the former manager and United legend has given

:11:54. > :11:58.Jose Mourinho the thumbs up. The Portuguese has been in charge

:11:59. > :12:01.at United for eight months, but the club currently trail leaders

:12:02. > :12:03.Chelsea by 14 points Sir Alex though, believes his

:12:04. > :12:07.old club are unlucky They haven't lost in the League

:12:08. > :12:13.for three months and the key to that, thinks the Scotsman,

:12:14. > :12:15.is Mourinho keeping And England's women were in action

:12:16. > :12:24.in Spain last night. The Lionesses played

:12:25. > :12:26.the second of their two Norway ended their ten match

:12:27. > :12:36.unbeaten run on Sunday and they were held to a nil-nil draw

:12:37. > :12:39.with Sweden last night in Murcia. And this is who they have

:12:40. > :12:42.to thank for the scoreline - goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain,

:12:43. > :12:44.who saved a second half penalty. The next step in England's

:12:45. > :12:46.preparation for the European Championship this summer

:12:47. > :12:55.is the She Believes Cup, History has been made in the snow?

:12:56. > :12:57.Sweden. Yes.

:12:58. > :13:05.History indeed - the first successful double

:13:06. > :13:09.The Double Backflip has earned a reputation as the Holy Grail -

:13:10. > :13:13.and Sweden's Daniel Bodin is the one who pulled it off.

:13:14. > :13:16.He's been working on this for two years and all his hard

:13:17. > :13:27.Wow, that's impressive. That's it from me. I will have more later on.

:13:28. > :13:30.Good morning. Welcome to the programme.

:13:31. > :13:33.A mum of two on the run from her violent ex-husband has told

:13:34. > :13:35.this programme how a social worker disclosed the location

:13:36. > :13:38.of her safe house - twice - leading to vicious revenge attacks

:13:39. > :13:44.Ivy, which is not her real name, was considered by police to be

:13:45. > :13:49.She was placed in secret, emergency accommodation with her children.

:13:50. > :13:52.In our exclusive interview, she tells us she was let down

:13:53. > :13:54.by nearly every agency supposed to be protecting her when she fled

:13:55. > :14:05.Eventually she and her children were relocated to a different

:14:06. > :14:08.part of the UK, given new identities and forced to cut off all ties

:14:09. > :14:13.In the end, police advised her to drop the investigation into her ex,

:14:14. > :14:15.because they couldn't guarantee her safety,

:14:16. > :14:16.saying "neither her life, nor her children's lives,

:14:17. > :14:21.were worth losing in the pursuit of justice".

:14:22. > :14:24.This interview is the first time Ivy has ever talked publicly

:14:25. > :14:29.Just to let you know, some of the details she describes

:14:30. > :14:32.are distressing, so if you have children around, you may not

:14:33. > :14:39.Ivy begins by describing how the physical and sexual abuse

:14:40. > :14:41.perpetrated by her husband, and other men he introduced

:14:42. > :14:51.It started off with sexual violence, so raping, and then progressed

:14:52. > :14:54.from there to physical violence, which started out as

:14:55. > :15:01.And then slowly progressed from there.

:15:02. > :15:04.There were weapons involved, in terms of a knife.

:15:05. > :15:13.Sticking my head under water until I was unconscious.

:15:14. > :15:18.And then, later on, he involved other men,

:15:19. > :15:21.which obviously included raping by other men.

:15:22. > :15:24.So he allowed other men to rape you as well?

:15:25. > :15:38.Do you have any idea how many times you were raped

:15:39. > :15:46.It was on a weekly basis, and sometimes multiple

:15:47. > :15:51.times during the week, so I have really no idea.

:15:52. > :15:57.What threats did he make to you to stop you going to the police?

:15:58. > :15:59.Well, once we had children, it was threats against the children,

:16:00. > :16:03.where he said he would harm the children if I wasn't complicit

:16:04. > :16:08.And that was particularly when he involved the other men.

:16:09. > :16:14.He constantly told me that nobody would believe me.

:16:15. > :16:18.And he also threatened that if I did go, that I would be the one

:16:19. > :16:26.You know, when you've been told that for so many years,

:16:27. > :16:32.What impact did all this have on you?

:16:33. > :16:36.I now suffer with complex post-traumatic stress disorder.

:16:37. > :16:45.I find it very hard to trust anybody.

:16:46. > :16:49.Eventually you did go to the police after encouragement from others.

:16:50. > :16:53.You spent an hour or so initially talking to an officer,

:16:54. > :16:56.a police officer, describing what you had endured

:16:57. > :17:03.After I had finished giving him my report,

:17:04. > :17:06.he sat back in his chair and said to me very bluntly that

:17:07. > :17:11.His words were, things like this don't happen in our green,

:17:12. > :17:13.leafy area, and anyway, you've derived sexual gratification

:17:14. > :17:29.I left feeling completely degraded and humiliated,

:17:30. > :17:31.and regretted having followed the advice to go

:17:32. > :17:38.Eventually, the authorities realised you were at risk

:17:39. > :17:41.of very serious harm, and your children, and they moved

:17:42. > :17:45.you to emergency accommodation, so-called safe accommodation.

:17:46. > :17:51.But the social worker involved made a monumental error.

:17:52. > :17:56.She disclosed our address to my ex-husband.

:17:57. > :17:58.She claimed it was his parental right to know where his

:17:59. > :18:03.And what was the result of the social worker

:18:04. > :18:10.He found us at that address, and I was assaulted again by him.

:18:11. > :18:13.And, astonishingly, this happened a second time with the same social

:18:14. > :18:18.worker after you'd been moved again to safe accommodation.

:18:19. > :18:21.Yeah, yeah, she just did exactly the same as soon as we'd been

:18:22. > :18:27.She disclosed where we'd been living.

:18:28. > :18:29.By that time, we'd also changed all our mobile numbers.

:18:30. > :18:35.She gave him our new numbers, and for the same reasoning.

:18:36. > :18:37.Even though she knew he'd carried out this revenge attack on you?

:18:38. > :18:41.Yeah, she said it was his parental right to know

:18:42. > :18:46.Do you know if that social worker has been disciplined or even

:18:47. > :18:52.Obviously, when the case had finalised, an internal review

:18:53. > :18:55.was carried out and social services acknowledged the

:18:56. > :18:59.We were told we would not find out what happened

:19:00. > :19:01.to the social worker, as that breached her

:19:02. > :19:04.confidentiality, her privacy rights, so I don't know

:19:05. > :19:07.Even though she'd breached your privacy rights?

:19:08. > :19:14.I think they did give you a written apology and a small

:19:15. > :19:16.amount of compensation, is that right?

:19:17. > :19:20.Yes, they obviously wrote and confirmed all the failings

:19:21. > :19:23.in the case, and voluntarily offered us a small financial settlement

:19:24. > :19:26.as a way of acknowledging their failings in the case.

:19:27. > :19:30.What do you think about what she did?

:19:31. > :19:33.When you report something like this and agencies become involved,

:19:34. > :19:40.You trust them to know they are doing the right thing,

:19:41. > :19:44.and that they are going to be there to protect you, as the victim,

:19:45. > :19:48.which is what they all advertise they are going to do.

:19:49. > :19:50.And meanwhile, this is somebody we put our trust in,

:19:51. > :19:52.and yet she completely breached our trust, which doesn't

:19:53. > :19:56.help when you're working with other agencies,

:19:57. > :19:58.because you just lose trust in everybody.

:19:59. > :20:00.It's not just the social worker you lose trust in,

:20:01. > :20:06.All the professionals who are working with you.

:20:07. > :20:12.In the meantime, over a period of months in 2014,

:20:13. > :20:17.you were dealt with by 18 different police officers.

:20:18. > :20:20.Can you give us a little bit of insight into why it was so many

:20:21. > :20:23.and what effect that had on your case.

:20:24. > :20:26.So, when the investigation started progressing after I had

:20:27. > :20:29.reported one of the rapes, that's when they discovered,

:20:30. > :20:32.obviously, my husband had involved other men.

:20:33. > :20:35.And unfortunately, instead of giving it to one specialised unit to take

:20:36. > :20:41.management of the case and investigate it, it was given

:20:42. > :20:44.to my local police station, to the original detective who had

:20:45. > :20:48.And he felt it was just impossible for him.

:20:49. > :20:52.He didn't have the resources to investigate all the incidents.

:20:53. > :20:56.So he decided he would only investigate the incidents that had

:20:57. > :20:59.occurred within the geographical area that he covered, and the rest

:21:00. > :21:03.of the incidents he farmed out to all the other areas.

:21:04. > :21:07.And so it ended up that there were 18 different officers

:21:08. > :21:11.And in practical terms, what effect does that have on you?

:21:12. > :21:14.It was horrendous, because I then had to undergo 18

:21:15. > :21:17.I had these officers constantly phoning me

:21:18. > :21:26.I had asked just to have one specific person,

:21:27. > :21:29.one person appointed as a specific point of contact,

:21:30. > :21:36.I asked if I could have one person doing all the video interviews,

:21:37. > :21:44.I couldn't cope with having to go over the story

:21:45. > :21:47.as a whole, because as much as they were investigating their own

:21:48. > :21:52.individual incidents, I still had to give the overall

:21:53. > :21:56.picture, and having to do that 18 times was just horrendous.

:21:57. > :21:59.It just became incredibly distressing.

:22:00. > :22:02.And it was so overwhelming, I think, that it led to you trying

:22:03. > :22:07.I ultimately ended up standing on a motorway bridge just

:22:08. > :22:11.wanting to put an end to it all because I couldn't cope.

:22:12. > :22:16.Four times in three months you ended up being moved,

:22:17. > :22:19.and your ex-husband was still trying to find you.

:22:20. > :22:22.But the police had stopped investigating him.

:22:23. > :22:28.When we moved into the new area, the inspector who was in charge

:22:29. > :22:31.of our safeguarding was not happy with the way in which the case was

:22:32. > :22:34.being managed in the previous force with the 18 different officers.

:22:35. > :22:38.He felt it was a safeguarding risk, so he had requested that the case be

:22:39. > :22:41.given to one specific unit and managed that way.

:22:42. > :22:47.But they refused that, and as such he put a temporary stop

:22:48. > :22:49.to all the investigations, because he said it was just

:22:50. > :22:55.At that point, they had asked us to change names.

:22:56. > :23:00.And he just felt that information would not be safe,

:23:01. > :23:03.having to disclose it to so many different police officers.

:23:04. > :23:09.He said it was impossible to safeguard us and keep our address

:23:10. > :23:14.safe, and he said, losing your life is not worth seeking justice.

:23:15. > :23:18.And he said, ultimately, that's going to happen.

:23:19. > :23:21.That was a devastating decision to have to make.

:23:22. > :23:25.Guilt that it allowed my ex-husband and the other offenders to go free,

:23:26. > :23:29.therefore allowing them to potentially go on

:23:30. > :23:36.And guilt, I suppose, from my own perspective.

:23:37. > :23:39.It felt like I was saying, it's OK that you did what you did to me.

:23:40. > :23:49.No, from the day our names changed, we were not allowed to make

:23:50. > :23:53.any reference at all to our previous names.

:23:54. > :23:59.I think if we did that, it would just be too easy to slip up.

:24:00. > :24:03.So it took quite an adjustment, a couple of weeks, for us all to get

:24:04. > :24:07.The children don't like to discuss it much with their friends.

:24:08. > :24:09.When they started school they just said they transferred

:24:10. > :24:15.What's the impact on your children on having new identities

:24:16. > :24:21.It's been incredibly difficult for them.

:24:22. > :24:24.We live in an age where all children are on social media.

:24:25. > :24:28.They are not allowed to have social media accounts.

:24:29. > :24:31.When they are with friends at school they have to be on constant alert

:24:32. > :24:34.in case somebody is taking a photo to put it on Instagram

:24:35. > :24:45.Even on themselves, the youngest walked into school one day last year

:24:46. > :24:51.and said they didn't want to be alive any more.

:24:52. > :24:54.So one of them has been suicidal, turned to self harming.

:24:55. > :25:03.Even just being able to trust a teacher, being able

:25:04. > :25:06.to trust a social worker, a police officer, incredibly

:25:07. > :25:12.How do you know he's still looking for you?

:25:13. > :25:15.The police have got intelligence that he's still looking for us.

:25:16. > :25:25.You are constantly looking over your shoulder.

:25:26. > :25:27.As much as we might feel safe in our new area,

:25:28. > :25:30.when you go out of that area you are constantly searching

:25:31. > :25:32.the crowds, worried, is he going to be there?

:25:33. > :25:38.It's constantly hanging over your head.

:25:39. > :25:42.I don't think you ever really escape that.

:25:43. > :25:44.What about your family, what about your friends,

:25:45. > :25:51.We had to cut off all contact with them.

:25:52. > :25:54.So from the day that our names were changed,

:25:55. > :26:00.So no family members, no friends, and that was very difficult,

:26:01. > :26:06.because we didn't get to phone them and say goodbye.

:26:07. > :26:09.And we didn't get to phone and say, this is why it's happening.

:26:10. > :26:11.It was just, one day you're talking to them,

:26:12. > :26:14.and the next, there's no further contact ever again.

:26:15. > :26:16.So they have no idea what's happened to you?

:26:17. > :26:19.That you've effectively disappeared off the face of the Earth?

:26:20. > :26:27.There is a chance that your ex-husband might see this interview.

:26:28. > :26:38.It's always a concern, but I think you reach a point

:26:39. > :26:42.where he has controlled so much of my life, and to still allow him

:26:43. > :26:44.to have control over what I do in the future,

:26:45. > :26:50.you get to a point where you kind of say no.

:26:51. > :26:52.I'm going to take back control over my life,

:26:53. > :26:55.and not allow you to dictate what I can and can't do.

:26:56. > :26:59.What do you hope to achieve by telling people what

:27:00. > :27:04.It's mainly in support of the campaign that

:27:05. > :27:07.Voice For Victims is running, which is trying to get

:27:08. > :27:10.the government to agree to a victim's law.

:27:11. > :27:13.At the moment, the government are happy that there

:27:14. > :27:18.And they seem to believe that's working, which it's not.

:27:19. > :27:21.There are plenty of cases like mine, where victims have been

:27:22. > :27:27.failed when they enter into the criminal justice system.

:27:28. > :27:29.So it's trying to raise awareness, highlight the failings,

:27:30. > :27:33.and try to get something concrete put down.

:27:34. > :27:35.So if failings like this happen, we can legally challenge them.

:27:36. > :27:40.Almost everything that could have gone wrong

:27:41. > :27:46.You have been failed multiple times by the criminal justice system.

:27:47. > :27:50.Yeah, there were failings across all agencies.

:27:51. > :27:56.It's awful to say that somebody can't seek justice,

:27:57. > :28:00.and we're not talking about 20 or 30 years ago, we are talking about now.

:28:01. > :28:05.And not to be able to seek justice because the criminal justice

:28:06. > :28:09.system can't protect you, or provide adequate safeguarding,

:28:10. > :28:12.is not acceptable in today's day and age, and it just

:28:13. > :28:24.That was Ivy speaking exclusively to us.

:28:25. > :28:26.Due to her anonymity and risk to her life

:28:27. > :28:28.from identifying any details, we have been unable to independently

:28:29. > :28:35.Social services in Ivy's case have acknowledged that they "fell well

:28:36. > :28:40.short of the expected standard", and she has received an apology

:28:41. > :28:46.The British Association of Social Workers also told

:28:47. > :28:49.us incidents like this "should never happen".

:28:50. > :28:54.Ivy is now involved in police training programmes,

:28:55. > :28:56.and later in the programme we'll hear from some people who've

:28:57. > :29:12.MSAs, this is a heartbreaking story. What an amazing woman. -- Ehmer

:29:13. > :29:16.says. Samantha says the story is disgusting. The authorities behind

:29:17. > :29:20.it should be ashamed. Another tweet says, social workers are leaving the

:29:21. > :29:27.profession in droves. This will add to it. Sally says, this is shocking.

:29:28. > :29:31.I thought we had come further than this. I would be interested to hear

:29:32. > :29:38.from you, if you have been in a safe location, at a safe address, and

:29:39. > :29:42.inadvertently or otherwise your address has been disclosed to

:29:43. > :29:46.somebody who was threatening you. Because on Twitter somebody has

:29:47. > :29:48.said, this happens regularly. Do let me know if you have got personal

:29:49. > :29:49.experience of this. Still to come, we've an exclusive

:29:50. > :29:51.interview with a North Korean diplomat who defected last year

:29:52. > :29:54.from its London embassy - he thinks its leader Kim Jong-un

:29:55. > :29:56.would be prepared to attack Los Angeles with nuclear

:29:57. > :29:58.weapons, if his survival And it's traditionally been thought

:29:59. > :30:04.that dogs are more intelligent than cats but new research calls

:30:05. > :30:20.that into question. This is very controversial research

:30:21. > :30:23.and you are responding. Samantha says, everyone who owns a cat

:30:24. > :30:28.already thinks they are more intelligent than dogs. I have six

:30:29. > :30:31.and they are out to do the dog every time. Stewart says cats are more

:30:32. > :30:37.intelligent than some people. Trevor agrees cats are some asthma more

:30:38. > :30:44.intelligent. Their independence prevents us from exploiting the

:30:45. > :30:48.fact. The dogs are more fun. We will talk to the researchers behind the

:30:49. > :30:50.tests which suggest cats are as good as dogs when it comes to memory

:30:51. > :30:54.tests. Here's Joanna in the BBC newsroom

:30:55. > :31:08.with a summary of today's news. President Trump is expected to sign

:31:09. > :31:12.several executive orders relating to immigration and security over the

:31:13. > :31:16.next few days. It comes as senior Republicans call on Mr Trump to drop

:31:17. > :31:20.his claim that millions of illegal immigrants voted in the presidential

:31:21. > :31:23.election. Helping rival Hillary Clinton win the popular vote.

:31:24. > :31:28.Pressure is growing on Theresa May to set out her negotiating position

:31:29. > :31:31.on Brexit in a formal document known as a White Paper which would be put

:31:32. > :31:37.It follow yesterday's Supreme Court judgment,

:31:38. > :31:40.which ruled that the Prime Minister must give Parliament a vote before

:31:41. > :31:43.triggering Article 50, the formal process for leaving the EU.

:31:44. > :31:47.It's thought a Brexit Bill could be introduced as early as tomorrow.

:31:48. > :31:49.Grammar school headteachers in England have warned that they may

:31:50. > :31:52.ask parents for hundreds of pounds a year to cope with funding cuts.

:31:53. > :31:55.The Grammar School Heads Association says proposed changes to school

:31:56. > :31:58.funding will see a majority of them lose money.

:31:59. > :32:00.A number of Conservative MPs are urging the Government

:32:01. > :32:04.But the Department for Education says it's ending a postcode

:32:05. > :32:11.Women who have a third child after being raped will now have

:32:12. > :32:13.to prove what happened to avoid losing money through new tax

:32:14. > :32:17.From April, tax credits will be limited to a family's

:32:18. > :32:20.The Government published a new so-called "rape clause"

:32:21. > :32:22.on Friday exempting women whose third or subsequent child was born

:32:23. > :32:28.The move has been described by campaigners

:32:29. > :32:35.The Government says it was "important to have an exception

:32:36. > :32:43.Women are experiencing discrimination when it comes

:32:44. > :32:45.to dress codes at work, according to a parliamentary report.

:32:46. > :32:48.MPs heard from hundreds of women who reported that the codes

:32:49. > :32:52.They began an inquiry after a receptionist was sent home

:32:53. > :33:04.A mother of two on the run from her violent ex-husband told this

:33:05. > :33:08.programme how a social worker disclosed the location of her safe

:33:09. > :33:16.house twice resulting in two vicious revenge attacks. Ivy, not her real

:33:17. > :33:21.name, was considered by police to be at high risk of being murdered. In

:33:22. > :33:24.the end the police advised her to drop the investigation into her

:33:25. > :33:31.husband as they couldn't guarantee her safety.

:33:32. > :33:36.Crystal says, "I couldn't get a restraining order against my abusive

:33:37. > :33:43.ex because my solicitor said it would give my husband the right to

:33:44. > :33:46.see our children unsupervised." . This viewer says, "This case is a

:33:47. > :33:49.disgrace." The British number one Johanna Konta

:33:50. > :33:58.is out of the Australian Open, after losing her quarter final match

:33:59. > :34:00.with the six-time Konta had been on a nine-match

:34:01. > :34:04.winning streak, but came up short in her first meeting

:34:05. > :34:05.with the 22-time She lost it in straight sets 6-2,

:34:06. > :34:09.6-3 after just over Joe Root has been declared fit

:34:10. > :34:13.to play in England's first Twenty20 He sat out England's five-run win

:34:14. > :34:20.in the final one-day But bowler David Willey has been

:34:21. > :34:27.ruled out with a shoulder injury. Sir Alex Ferguson has given

:34:28. > :34:29.the Manchester United manager Despite being sixth in the table,

:34:30. > :34:33.United are on a three-match unbeaten run in the League

:34:34. > :34:35.and Ferguson believes that's all down to the Portuguese keeping

:34:36. > :34:39.control of his emotions. England's women were held

:34:40. > :34:42.to a goalless draw with Sweden last Goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain

:34:43. > :34:50.gets the credit. Next up for Mark Sampson's team

:34:51. > :34:55.is the She Believes Cup in the USA. There are growing calls

:34:56. > :35:00.from MPs for the Government to publish its plan for Brexit

:35:01. > :35:15.in a formal policy document. So is the Prime Minister going to

:35:16. > :35:20.have to climb down? I think she may Vic, here we are the day after that

:35:21. > :35:25.big Supreme Court ruling and yes, Mrs May maybe facing defeat on part

:35:26. > :35:29.of her Brexit game plan. Just to be clear, what MPs are pressing for and

:35:30. > :35:32.we're talking not just about opposition MPs, we're talking about

:35:33. > :35:37.a handful of Conservative rebels too. They're pressing for what's

:35:38. > :35:42.called a White Paper. Now, what that basically means the Government would

:35:43. > :35:46.have to produce a formal document setting out what Mrs May's

:35:47. > :35:51.objectives and approaches to the Brexit negotiations now. Team May

:35:52. > :35:56.are saying we don't want to publish that because they think it's just a

:35:57. > :36:00.sort of wheeze, it is another demand by MPs. They say first of all, MPs

:36:01. > :36:03.demanded Mrs May set out her objectives and she did that in a

:36:04. > :36:06.speech last week and then they wanted a vote. They're getting a

:36:07. > :36:10.vote and now they're wanting a White Paper, in other words they keep

:36:11. > :36:14.asking for more and more so they are saying enough is enough. And there

:36:15. > :36:18.is another reason too, their fear is if Mrs May has to put down in black

:36:19. > :36:23.and white her game plan then that will reveal more than she wants to

:36:24. > :36:26.other EU leaders. In other words it could damage how she handle the

:36:27. > :36:30.negotiations and certainly that was the view of the former Tory leader

:36:31. > :36:33.Michael Howard when he was asked about the idea of a White Paper this

:36:34. > :36:37.morning. The risk is they set out our

:36:38. > :36:42.negotiating position and that plays into the hands of the people they're

:36:43. > :36:47.negotiating with. If you set out for example your priorities, the people

:36:48. > :36:53.you're negotiating with say, "Right, well, we can forget about the things

:36:54. > :36:57.which you say are a lesser prior because you're not really interested

:36:58. > :37:02.in them." That would be a foolish thing to do. The MPs pressing for

:37:03. > :37:05.the White Paper say, "Calm down. Calm down. There is nothing

:37:06. > :37:10.particularly dramatic about asking for a White Paper. Pretty much every

:37:11. > :37:14.Government when they've gone into EU negotiations before over other EU

:37:15. > :37:17.treaties, has always produced a White Paper so that MPs know what it

:37:18. > :37:23.is the Government is trying to achieve. And so, the Shadow

:37:24. > :37:28.Attorney-General, when she was asked this morning said that you know,

:37:29. > :37:33.Parliament has to be kept informed about the Brexit process.

:37:34. > :37:38.It's very important that Parliament is now given the role that the court

:37:39. > :37:43.said they must have. Whether you voted to Remain or to Leave the

:37:44. > :37:47.European Union, one thing is clear - you believe in Parliamentary

:37:48. > :37:49.sovereignty because that's the over Arching principle of democracy in

:37:50. > :37:53.the UK and the Government must respect that now. What happens now

:37:54. > :37:58.then, Norman? Has the court judgement changed anything really?

:37:59. > :38:02.Well, it's changed something quite fundamental if that there will now

:38:03. > :38:06.have to be a legislation to trigger this Article 50 beginning the

:38:07. > :38:10.process that takes us out of the EU and the expectation is we will get

:38:11. > :38:13.that Bill tomorrow. So the Government will show us the

:38:14. > :38:18.legislation which we are expecting it to be a very paired down

:38:19. > :38:23.minimalist Bill, just a couple of clauses which could restrict the

:38:24. > :38:26.scope for MPs to table critical amendments so it is published

:38:27. > :38:31.tomorrow. MPs probably begin to debate and vote on it next week.

:38:32. > :38:35.That will, I expect, go on for around a fortnight, by which time

:38:36. > :38:38.the Government will hope to have got the Bill through the House of

:38:39. > :38:43.Commons. There is then a sort of half term week recess so everyone

:38:44. > :38:47.goes away for a week. Then, the Government will try and get it

:38:48. > :38:51.through the House of Lords. Now that's the much more problematic

:38:52. > :38:55.business because getting legislation through the House of Lords, I mean,

:38:56. > :38:59.the House of Lords are like unruly spaniels, they pretty much do what

:39:00. > :39:04.they want when it comes to legislation, they can decide what

:39:05. > :39:08.amendments they want to take. They can decide how long they're going to

:39:09. > :39:11.talk for. They can go on forever and a day and the crucially the

:39:12. > :39:15.Government doesn't have a majority in the House of Lords so it is much

:39:16. > :39:16.more vulnerable to things going pear-shaped in the House of Lords.

:39:17. > :39:30.Thank you very much, Norman. We will have more on the war of

:39:31. > :39:39.words developing between the American press and TV networks and

:39:40. > :39:43.Donald Trump. If a woman has a third child

:39:44. > :39:46.conceived after she was raped, she will have to prove she was raped in

:39:47. > :39:54.order to claim tax credits for that child. The plan has been described

:39:55. > :39:57.as inhumane and degrading. From this April, child tax credits will be

:39:58. > :40:06.limited to family's first two children.

:40:07. > :40:09.However, they say the woman will need to provide evidence

:40:10. > :40:13.Let's get reaction to this from Alice Irving, who was raped

:40:14. > :40:19.when she was at university and now campaigns to raise awareness.

:40:20. > :40:22.She has waived her right to anonymity to talk to us this

:40:23. > :40:26.morning. And also with us is Debbie Abrahams,

:40:27. > :40:29.a Labour MP and the party's spokesperson on welfare

:40:30. > :40:37.and benefits. Alice, what do you think of this? It

:40:38. > :40:40.is appalling. I can't easily put into words how difficult it is to

:40:41. > :40:45.make the decision to disclose and to describe to somebody what's happened

:40:46. > :40:49.to you. I would say that many women choose never to disclose. There is a

:40:50. > :40:54.huge amount of shame, guilt, you know that you're unlikely to be

:40:55. > :40:58.believed and I mean, the average rape victim gets that response on a

:40:59. > :41:02.daily basis. Let alone if you're somebody who is trying to claim

:41:03. > :41:09.welfare and we know that these people are disbelieved as well. The

:41:10. > :41:13.disclosure I made was met with a poor response including to GPs which

:41:14. > :41:17.are some of the people who are being proposed to assess the credibility

:41:18. > :41:20.claims. When you are making a report in a official capacity, you're not

:41:21. > :41:25.just saying I was raped which is hard enough to get out, to establish

:41:26. > :41:28.your credibility, you are having to give them enough detail of what

:41:29. > :41:31.happened for them to believe you and to go through that process and to

:41:32. > :41:35.have those pointed questions asked is to relive that trauma. I was

:41:36. > :41:40.raped once. The woman that are going to be dealt with under this policy

:41:41. > :41:44.often will be as you've heard from, Ivy this morning, victims of

:41:45. > :41:49.systematic rape over many years and just the thought of having to be

:41:50. > :41:52.forced to choose between funding for your child and reliving that

:41:53. > :41:56.experience with somebody you wouldn't trust if I were in their

:41:57. > :42:02.position, is just, it is disgusting frankly. Debbie, can we just talk

:42:03. > :42:08.through how this might work in practical terms. After consultation

:42:09. > :42:12.between the Department for Work and Pensions and HMRC, they concluded

:42:13. > :42:18.last Friday that they would press ahead with, "A third party evidence

:42:19. > :42:25.model offering the most promising approach." So as the woman, you

:42:26. > :42:31.would have to... The burden of proof would be with you. The burden of

:42:32. > :42:38.proof would be on you, either a GP or a police officer or someone else.

:42:39. > :42:45.Who would then assess that That's my concern, really. Someone in the DWP,

:42:46. > :42:51.in a Jobcentre or health centre? Well, precisely. We don't have the

:42:52. > :42:58.details of that. We absolutely oppose this proposal which is part

:42:59. > :43:02.of the work, Welfare Reform and work Act, it is punishing rape victims

:43:03. > :43:06.and it is punishing their children and we see it in the context of a

:43:07. > :43:11.Social Security which is punitive, it is one that's based on not

:43:12. > :43:15.believing you, you have to provide the evidence and even if we compare

:43:16. > :43:20.for example the work capability assessment, evidence from GPs, and

:43:21. > :43:25.consultants often isn't believed. So this is again, as Alice has said, it

:43:26. > :43:31.is adding to the trauma and I really have concerns in terms of the

:43:32. > :43:40.competence and sensitivity in which it will be handled. As I say, we see

:43:41. > :43:44.similar sort of systems with DWP, they haven't worked well. After I

:43:45. > :43:48.have been here I'm going to the vigil of somebody who was fit for

:43:49. > :43:52.work and died after going to the Jobcentre. I mean, this is happening

:43:53. > :43:58.unfortunately too often. And this, as I say, will add to the trauma of

:43:59. > :44:03.rape victims. Further punishing children who will be driven into

:44:04. > :44:06.poverty with all the effects, not just while they're children, but for

:44:07. > :44:11.the rest of their lives. What are you going to do about it? Well, we

:44:12. > :44:15.are strongly opposing it. One of the things we have coming up is a

:44:16. > :44:21.campaign around child poverty and life chances. Dan Jarvis for example

:44:22. > :44:25.has a Bill around that to raise the public's awareness of what's

:44:26. > :44:32.happening. So this is in the context of three out of the four million

:44:33. > :44:36.children who are living in poverty are in working families so the

:44:37. > :44:41.Government's mantra has been about making work pay and so on and it's

:44:42. > :44:47.not happening for these children and as I say, in terms of the

:44:48. > :44:49.sensitivity of what's happening around rape victims, it is beyond

:44:50. > :45:03.the pail. You gave us some insight into the

:45:04. > :45:07.difficulties of what had happened to you with those in authority. What

:45:08. > :45:12.made you want to speak out publicly and wave your right to anonymity? I

:45:13. > :45:15.think the only way this is going to change is if people make the point

:45:16. > :45:21.of saying this is not being dealt with well. I was scoffed at when I

:45:22. > :45:29.tried to access emergency health care. If somebody doesn't say this

:45:30. > :45:36.is happening, it's going to keep happening. I'm in a position which I

:45:37. > :45:40.got fantastic support. I've had access to private therapy, all the

:45:41. > :45:45.support I could need to make the choice to speak out. But the point

:45:46. > :45:51.is, it is a choice. If I find it too hard, I can always stop. There is no

:45:52. > :45:58.support for these women. They are not going to have, there is nothing

:45:59. > :46:06.to say that they will have mental health support. And they are being

:46:07. > :46:09.forced, effectively, to choose between possibly child poverty for

:46:10. > :46:16.their children, or to go through this trauma. This is the context of

:46:17. > :46:22.the mental health crisis, not just the NHS crisis. The government has

:46:23. > :46:26.decided that after two children, child tax credits will be cut off.

:46:27. > :46:31.What about the principle that they are trying to find a way for women

:46:32. > :46:34.to receive a child after rape to be able to get tax credits for that

:46:35. > :46:42.child, Bud Pierce, they are also asking per evidence? It has to be

:46:43. > :46:48.looked at in the context of the real trauma that these women have been

:46:49. > :46:51.through. There is no way of describing it other than as an

:46:52. > :46:58.inhumane policy. Is this really a society that we want? We certainly

:46:59. > :47:05.will be campaigning with crisis macro and other organisations. --

:47:06. > :47:13.crisis. This is what is happening. This is a government policy. Can I

:47:14. > :47:17.add something? Even if you can prove coercion, control, rape, you cannot

:47:18. > :47:20.claim that tax credit if you are still with the perpetrator under the

:47:21. > :47:25.current policy because they don't want him to bed -- benefit. The

:47:26. > :47:30.story we heard from Ivy talked about how hard it is to leave someone like

:47:31. > :47:33.that, and how one safe it is. Not only now is in the case that we are

:47:34. > :47:37.expecting somebody who wants to access funding to help raise their

:47:38. > :47:39.child to prove rape, but also to put themselves in a very dangerous

:47:40. > :47:45.position of going through the process of leaving an abusive

:47:46. > :47:48.partner. I have some messages from our audience saying they cannot

:47:49. > :47:56.believe that this is actually going to happen. One says, hard to believe

:47:57. > :48:02.women have to prove they have been raved -- raped. Glenn says,

:48:03. > :48:06.unbelievable. What kind of sick individual would think that is

:48:07. > :48:12.acceptable? Another says, what is to stop people just saying, I was

:48:13. > :48:18.raped, to claim child tax credits? This is classic. You have two

:48:19. > :48:23.categories of people who I never believed. Rape complainants and

:48:24. > :48:27.welfare recipients. The system is rigged against these people. You

:48:28. > :48:32.would never buy choice come forward. The broad point is the whole policy

:48:33. > :48:34.itself is so questionable. If a policy requires an exception like

:48:35. > :48:43.this to even slightly function potentially humanely, you have to

:48:44. > :48:56.really question having this childcare. Spot-on. Another says,

:48:57. > :48:57.this is victimising all over again. Absolutely. Thank you both very

:48:58. > :49:00.much. Coming up, we have an exclusive

:49:01. > :49:02.interview with a North Korean diplomat who defected last year

:49:03. > :49:08.from its London embassy. He thinks its leader Kim Jong-un

:49:09. > :49:13.would be prepared to attack Los Angeles with nuclear weapons,

:49:14. > :49:29.if his survival in Chip -- Kim Jong Un, I think, will

:49:30. > :49:42.press the button of this dangerous weapons when he thinks that he is

:49:43. > :49:47.through and his dynasty is threatened to be collapsed, yes. He

:49:48. > :49:48.would destroy Los Angeles, even though the retaliation would kill

:49:49. > :49:52.him? Yes. Now, the idea that dogs are more

:49:53. > :49:55.intelligent than cats has been Japanese scientists say

:49:56. > :50:00.cats are as good as dogs at certain memory tests,

:50:01. > :50:02.suggesting they may We can speak to Dr John Bradshaw

:50:03. > :50:18.from the University Veterinary Science and presenter

:50:19. > :50:21.of the television programme, And David Kornhause

:50:22. > :50:39.from Kyoto University in Japan. John, hello. No, it's David. Hello.

:50:40. > :50:46.Tell us a little bit about this study? Yes. Well actually, I'm not

:50:47. > :50:50.the researcher, I'm the communications director for the

:50:51. > :50:53.University. The research team has been working with many different

:50:54. > :51:01.kinds of animals over the years, including dogs and cats. And what

:51:02. > :51:05.they are especially wanting to show with this new work is that cats are

:51:06. > :51:11.probably a lot more intelligent than we had imagined. There has been a

:51:12. > :51:18.sense that maybe dogs, because their reactions to dog owners are more

:51:19. > :51:25.obvious or Mortier, are some are more intelligent as a result. But

:51:26. > :51:30.actually, when the experiments are done carefully, cats are being shown

:51:31. > :51:37.to have the same kind of memory that dogs have. OK. It is quite a small

:51:38. > :51:47.study. It is 49 domestic cats. Can you tell us a little bit about the

:51:48. > :51:52.tests they went through? The tests themselves are in specific memory

:51:53. > :51:58.related to how food is being eaten by the cats. We are just showing

:51:59. > :52:04.pictures of a cat falling in a bath, which doesn't show they are

:52:05. > :52:08.particularly intelligent. It is about the bowls the eight from?

:52:09. > :52:15.Exactly. It was shown they were able to recall specific memories on their

:52:16. > :52:22.own. Not necessarily in reaction to something else. But as a fond

:52:23. > :52:28.memory. OK. And that was not expected, that was surprising? Well

:52:29. > :52:35.actually, over the years, re-searchers have been finding that

:52:36. > :52:41.it seems that many animals that we see in a domestic context have

:52:42. > :52:46.fairly similar kinds of memory and intelligence. But the way they show

:52:47. > :52:48.them and the different kinds of strengths and weaknesses they have,

:52:49. > :52:59.sometimes mask their actually ability. Let me bring in Doctor John

:53:00. > :53:05.Bradshaw. What do you think of this, John? I think that the idea that

:53:06. > :53:11.cats are as intelligent as dogs is a perfectly sensible one. We know they

:53:12. > :53:15.both have very similar brains. They are much more similar to each other

:53:16. > :53:18.than they are to humans. We would expect to find similar levels of

:53:19. > :53:22.intelligence. But as your previous speedo was saying, maybe they

:53:23. > :53:30.demonstrated differently because of the different ways they have been

:53:31. > :53:37.domesticated. OK. You observe cats. What did you discover about them?

:53:38. > :53:41.Cats are very tuned into places, places where they go, places where

:53:42. > :53:46.they can find things they want. This new research essentially confirms

:53:47. > :53:50.that in relation to food. Cats are hunters. We have kept them as

:53:51. > :53:54.hunters for most of their history while they have been domesticated.

:53:55. > :54:00.It is only recently we don't like it any more. Their minds are very much

:54:01. > :54:04.tuned in to find in their next meal. And in particular, where did they

:54:05. > :54:08.last catch a mouse? Where did they last smell a mouse that they didn't

:54:09. > :54:12.catch? That maybe the right place to go back to. That is the kind of

:54:13. > :54:18.thing that has been shown in this research. What do we do with this

:54:19. > :54:23.research, how should we... What do we do with it? I think we respect

:54:24. > :54:27.the difference. Dogs, we don't want to say cats are brighter than dogs,

:54:28. > :54:37.because they can remember which bowl used to have food in. The way dogs

:54:38. > :54:42.react, particularly, is to look at their owners, keep their eye on

:54:43. > :54:45.their owners all the time and react to that, whereas cats are more

:54:46. > :54:50.interested in the places they are in and a bit less interested in the

:54:51. > :54:54.honour. Thank you both very much. Doctor John Bradshaw. And David from

:54:55. > :54:56.Kyoto University. The daughter of Michael Jackson says

:54:57. > :54:58.she believes her father was murdered, and says he'd often

:54:59. > :55:01."drop hints" that people Radio 1 Newsbeat's Sinead Garvan

:55:02. > :55:14.can tell us more. This is her first ever in-depth

:55:15. > :55:17.interview, which she gave to Rolling Stone magazine? She did indeed. It

:55:18. > :55:21.is the start of her wanting to launch a career as a model and

:55:22. > :55:25.aspiring actress. The whole point of it was, I will say this once and as

:55:26. > :55:31.I go about my life, the information is out there. Very revealing

:55:32. > :55:34.interview, very sad, quite dark at times. The biggest allegation she

:55:35. > :55:40.makes is that her dad was indeed murdered. Obviously what we know is

:55:41. > :55:44.he died of cardiac arrest because of an overdose of prescription drugs.

:55:45. > :55:50.And then his personal physician, Doctor Conrad Murray, served two

:55:51. > :55:54.years in jail for involuntary manslaughter. What she says is that

:55:55. > :55:59.it is obvious, all arrows point to the fact he was murdered. It sounds

:56:00. > :56:03.like a total conspiracy theory, but what -- but real fans and everybody

:56:04. > :56:08.in the family know it was a real setup. She said a lot of -ish --

:56:09. > :56:12.people had issues with Michael Jackson. She said there were times

:56:13. > :56:15.when her dad would say that there were serious people out there who

:56:16. > :56:21.wanted to get him. She said at one point they would kill him. She then

:56:22. > :56:29.goes into how this affected her mental health. And very severely, it

:56:30. > :56:33.would seem, she says she tried to kill herself three times. It is

:56:34. > :56:37.about self-hatred, low self-esteem. She then ended a up in a therapeutic

:56:38. > :56:42.high school for most of her education. This was a place where

:56:43. > :56:46.she would have her classes but also intensive therapy to deal with

:56:47. > :56:52.everything that happened. She also talked about some of the happier

:56:53. > :56:56.moments of her extraordinary life with her dad, who was Michael

:56:57. > :56:59.Jackson? Exactly. We get a lovely insight into him. She was

:57:00. > :57:04.home-schooled with her brother, Prince. That was show she would

:57:05. > :57:10.spend more time with dad. -- that was so. She said, when you are at

:57:11. > :57:14.home, dad would come in the middle of class and say, no more class for

:57:15. > :57:23.the rest of the day. She also talks about how he taught her how to cook.

:57:24. > :57:27.His speciality was fried chicken and sweet potato pie. She now lives in

:57:28. > :57:33.the studio where Michael Jackson demoed eat it. It has been turned

:57:34. > :57:38.into apartments on the Michael Jackson compound. You can imagine

:57:39. > :57:43.how much that would be worth if it was put up for auction. She tweeted

:57:44. > :57:49.last night, after the interview was published, that she wouldn't be

:57:50. > :57:54.talking about anything else. If you have questions, read it. That is her

:57:55. > :58:02.basically saying, I've said it all now. She also talked about how the

:58:03. > :58:07.allegations she made are being looked into. It is a complicate

:58:08. > :58:12.chess puzzle. Thank you very much. Thank you for your comments on save

:58:13. > :58:15.address is being disclosed to the authorities, putting you at risk. I

:58:16. > :58:20.will read some of those in the next hour. They are quite incredible. We

:58:21. > :58:24.will bring you the latest news and sport in a moment.

:58:25. > :58:28.First, the weather. Good morning. It has been a foggy start for some. In

:58:29. > :58:34.fact, we still have some of that fog around. It wasn't for the absolutely

:58:35. > :58:39.everywhere. Some of us got off to a fine start. Weather Watchers doing

:58:40. > :58:44.is proud once again this morning. As we move into Scotland, a fine start.

:58:45. > :58:50.Looking further south, it was frosty in Bristol. Not a bad start

:58:51. > :58:57.nonetheless. Then we ran into the fog. We had fog this morning in

:58:58. > :59:01.Surrey. We still have some fog around. Part of the Midlands, the

:59:02. > :59:06.South coast, north-east England as well. A lot of that will lift

:59:07. > :59:10.through the course of the morning. That is because we start pulling in

:59:11. > :59:16.some cloud from the near continent, and that will lift the fog. It will

:59:17. > :59:20.feel cold. As we drift towards the south-west, already we have got some

:59:21. > :59:25.clear skies. It is milder. Sunshine this morning across Wales. Breezy

:59:26. > :59:29.towards the West. And when the fog lifts from the Vale of York, we

:59:30. > :59:32.should see some sunshine as we should across Southern part of

:59:33. > :59:39.northern England. For Northern England and Scotland, Cloud. A mild

:59:40. > :59:45.start. Temperatures in the north-west Highlands at the moment,

:59:46. > :59:50.13 Celsius. In the north-west, severe gales. Later we will see the

:59:51. > :59:55.arrival of some rain. In the south, that fog continues to lift into low

:59:56. > :59:58.cloud. Feeling quite cold. I've towards the West we have got higher

:59:59. > :00:02.values. It is also going to be rather windy. Through this evening

:00:03. > :00:06.and overnight, not so much of a problem with fog. There will be more

:00:07. > :00:10.wind around. The wind is strongest in the West. We are looking at a

:00:11. > :00:15.widespread frost. Some of us will see snow flurry -- snow flurries or

:00:16. > :00:19.drizzle. Watch out if you're travelling early on. As we go

:00:20. > :00:23.through the course of tomorrow, again we are looking at a fine day.

:00:24. > :00:31.Some snow flurries, not enough to build a snowman. Are going to be

:00:32. > :00:38.subjected to a wind from France. That will have an ad -- an adverse

:00:39. > :00:45.effect on the cabbages. It will feel more like minus five degrees. On

:00:46. > :00:49.Friday, we still have a keen south-easterly wind. Despite the

:00:50. > :00:53.temperatures, it will feel cold. Towards the West, and Atlantic

:00:54. > :00:54.weather front is coming our way, that will introduce rain. It will

:00:55. > :00:59.bring milder conditions. This morning, a victim

:01:00. > :01:12.of domestic abuse on the run from her abusive ex-husband tells

:01:13. > :01:15.this programme a social worker disclosed the location

:01:16. > :01:23.of her secret safe house twice. She just did exactly the same as

:01:24. > :01:27.soon as we'd been move the second time. She disclosed where we had

:01:28. > :01:31.been living. By that time we had also changed all our mobile numbers.

:01:32. > :01:34.She gave him our new numbers and for the same reasoning.

:01:35. > :01:39.We will bring you reaction shortly. Also on the programme,

:01:40. > :01:41."I swear to tell the post truth, the alternative truth and nothing

:01:42. > :01:44.like the truth" - that's how satirical magazine Private Eye

:01:45. > :01:46.mocks Donald Trump's Overnight there have been more

:01:47. > :01:58.clashes between Trump's spokesman Exactly what evidence? Speaker Ryan

:01:59. > :02:01.said there is no evidence. The national secretaries of State say

:02:02. > :02:04.they don't agree with the president's assessment. What

:02:05. > :02:06.evidence do you have? The president believed that for a while and based

:02:07. > :02:10.on studies and information he has. A North Korean diplomat who defected

:02:11. > :02:13.claims Kim Jong-un would be prepared to attack Los Angeles

:02:14. > :02:15.with nuclear weapons. We've an exclusive

:02:16. > :02:29.interview with him. Kim Jong-un, I think, will press the

:02:30. > :02:30.button. He would destroy Los Angeles even though the retaliation would

:02:31. > :02:35.kill him? Yes. Yes. Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

:02:36. > :02:41.with a summary of today's news. President Trump says he's planning

:02:42. > :02:43.what he calls a "big day" on national security,

:02:44. > :02:45.including an announcement on his pledge to build a wall along

:02:46. > :02:48.the US border with Mexico. He's expected to sign several

:02:49. > :02:51.executive orders relating to immigration and security over

:02:52. > :02:54.the next few days. It comes as senior Republicans call

:02:55. > :02:57.on Mr Trump to drop his claim that millions of illegal immigrants voted

:02:58. > :02:59.in the presidential election, helping rival Hillary Clinton

:03:00. > :03:08.win the popular vote. MPs have increased pressure

:03:09. > :03:12.on Theresa May to set out her negotiating position

:03:13. > :03:15.on Brexit in a White Paper to be It follow yesterday's

:03:16. > :03:21.Supreme Court judgment, which ruled that the Prime Minister

:03:22. > :03:23.must give Parliament a vote before triggering Article 50, the formal

:03:24. > :03:26.process for leaving the EU. It's thought legislation could be

:03:27. > :03:29.introduced as early as tomorrow. At least six people have been killed

:03:30. > :03:33.in a terror attack on a hotel in the capital of Somalia,

:03:34. > :03:41.Mogadishu. The attackers rammed

:03:42. > :03:44.the gates of the Dayah Hotel with a car full of explosives,

:03:45. > :03:47.before gunmen entered the hotel The hotel is popular with Somali

:03:48. > :03:50.politicians and foreign dignitaries. The terrorist group Al-Shabaab says

:03:51. > :03:57.it carried out the attack. A mother of two on the run

:03:58. > :04:01.from her violent ex-husband has told this programme how a social worker

:04:02. > :04:04.disclosed the location of her safe house twice, resulting in two

:04:05. > :04:07.vicious revenge attacks. Ivy, which is not her real name,

:04:08. > :04:10.was considered by police to be She told Victoria she was let down

:04:11. > :04:19.by nearly every agency supposed In the end police advised her

:04:20. > :04:23.to drop the investigation into her ex-husband as they couldn't

:04:24. > :04:37.guarantee her safety. This is somebody we put our trust in

:04:38. > :04:40.and yet she breached our trust. It's not just the social worker you lose

:04:41. > :04:42.trust in. You lose trust in everybody. All the professionals who

:04:43. > :04:46.are working with you. Three bodies have been

:04:47. > :04:50.discovered after a house fire The bodies of a man,

:04:51. > :04:53.woman and child were found in the ruins of a farm cottage

:04:54. > :04:57.following a fire which is believed A delayed upgrade to the radio

:04:58. > :05:00.system, used by the emergency services in England,

:05:01. > :05:02.Scotland and Wales, may end up costing taxpayers

:05:03. > :05:04.?475 million a year. MPs on the Public Accounts Committee

:05:05. > :05:08.say the planned new system isn't used by any other country,

:05:09. > :05:10.and needs to be properly tested. The service, which will use 4G

:05:11. > :05:13.and EE, was supposed to be ready last year but won't be

:05:14. > :05:27.available until 2019. That's a summary of

:05:28. > :05:43.the latest BBC News. Simon says, "My granddaughter was

:05:44. > :05:48.abused and put into a safe house. Last week she was chased for a debt

:05:49. > :05:55.which her former abuser had run up. She has two children and everything

:05:56. > :05:56.is weighted towards the abuse. He seems to be untouchable and gets

:05:57. > :05:59.away with everything." Do get in touch with us

:06:00. > :06:07.throughout the morning. We appreciate these messages from

:06:08. > :06:08.you with experience of the kind of issues that we're experiencing

:06:09. > :06:11.today. The British number one Johanna Konta

:06:12. > :06:16.is out of the Australian Open. She was the only Brit

:06:17. > :06:18.left in the competition, but was simply outplayed

:06:19. > :06:20.in her quarter final match with the six-time

:06:21. > :06:23.champion Serena Williams. Konta had been on a nine-match

:06:24. > :06:26.winning streak but came up short in her first meeting

:06:27. > :06:27.with the 22-time She lost it in straight

:06:28. > :06:31.sets 6-2, 6-3. They were on court

:06:32. > :06:34.for just over an hour. So Williams is now on the hunt

:06:35. > :06:38.for a 23rd title and what would be Tough for Konta of course,

:06:39. > :06:46.but she has plenty to be proud of. She hadn't even dropped

:06:47. > :06:55.a set all tournament. Well, I think overall she played at

:06:56. > :07:00.a higher level than I did today. I think she showed why she is,

:07:01. > :07:05.arguably the one of the best of all times. I think I really enjoyed my

:07:06. > :07:10.time out there on court against her. I was able to, well, I hope I will

:07:11. > :07:14.be able to bring a lot away from it and things that I will be able to

:07:15. > :07:16.reuse and hopefully I'll get a chance to play her again in other

:07:17. > :07:20.matches as well. Liverpool forward Philippe Coutinho

:07:21. > :07:22.has signed a new five-year The deal is worth about ?150,000

:07:23. > :07:26.a week and makes him the highest The Brazilian international has been

:07:27. > :07:30.hugely influential this season and his seven weeks on the sidelines

:07:31. > :07:33.with ankle ligament damage coincided with Liverpool's worst run

:07:34. > :07:38.of form this season. Manager Jurgen Klopp has described

:07:39. > :07:43.his play-maker as "world class". Joe Root has been declared fit

:07:44. > :07:46.to play in England's first Twenty20 He sat out England's five-run win

:07:47. > :07:50.in the final one-day But bowler David Willey has been

:07:51. > :08:05.ruled out with a shoulder injury. Sir Alex Ferguson says that Jose

:08:06. > :08:12.Mourinho is doing a great job at Manchester United.

:08:13. > :08:15.The Portuguese has been in charge at United for eight months,

:08:16. > :08:17.but the club currently trail leaders Chelsea by 14 points

:08:18. > :08:21.Sir Alex though, believes his old club are unlucky

:08:22. > :08:25.They haven't lost in the league for three months and the key

:08:26. > :08:26.to that, thinks the Scotsman, is Mourinho keeping

:08:27. > :08:32.I think that Jose is finding solutions now. There was a period

:08:33. > :08:36.earlier in the season when he wasn't making decisions and his emotioning

:08:37. > :08:43.boiled over. He is an emotional guy and now you see him now, he's calm

:08:44. > :08:54.and he's in control. That's the obvious observation I am making of

:08:55. > :08:57.the team now. The team is playing with great energy, determination,

:08:58. > :08:59.will to win, which I think is really important.

:09:00. > :09:01.England's women played the second of their two

:09:02. > :09:06.Norway ended their ten-match unbeaten on Sunday and they were

:09:07. > :09:09.held to a 0-0 draw with Sweden last night in Murcia.

:09:10. > :09:13.Goalkeeper, Siobhan Chamberlain, kept them in it after saving

:09:14. > :09:19.The next step in England's preparation for the European

:09:20. > :09:22.Championship this summer is the She Believes Cup,

:09:23. > :09:30.And that's all the sport. Thank you, Victoria.

:09:31. > :09:32.This morning we've bought you Ivy's story.

:09:33. > :09:38.She's a mum of two who was in hiding and on the run from her violent

:09:39. > :09:40.ex-husband when a social worker twice disclosed the details

:09:41. > :09:45.of her safe house, leading to vicious attacks.

:09:46. > :09:49.Ivy, which is not her real name, was considered by police to be

:09:50. > :09:58.We have had many comments from you which suggests this is not an

:09:59. > :10:03.isolated case. This e-mail says, "I was in a woman's aid refuge with my

:10:04. > :10:08.two children aged five and eight. And a Family Court judge ordered the

:10:09. > :10:12.refuge manager to divulge the address of the house or she, the

:10:13. > :10:16.manager, would be held in contempt of court. The same judge then

:10:17. > :10:21.ordered that I let the children return to the home. So I felt I had

:10:22. > :10:26.no choice, but to return with them. The judge was later criticised by a

:10:27. > :10:29.High Court judge. This was 18 years ago. But from your story this

:10:30. > :10:34.morning, there is still so much work to do to keep victims of domestic

:10:35. > :10:38.violence safe." Sue e-mails to say, "I would like to say that this is

:10:39. > :10:42.shocking, but unfortunately I don't think it is so unusual for agencies

:10:43. > :10:48.to fail victims. I'm not sure if it's because the law is not victim

:10:49. > :10:51.focussed or whether it's because of individual personalities working

:10:52. > :10:54.within agencies making personal judgements instead of following

:10:55. > :11:01.proper procedures and using due diligence. Shame on those who failed

:11:02. > :11:06.Ivy's family in a spectacular way." This e-mailer says, "It makes my

:11:07. > :11:09.blood run cold as my daughter is going through something similar.

:11:10. > :11:13.Having survived two strangulation attempts and beatings and knife

:11:14. > :11:18.threats and an explosion in her home and much more including harm to

:11:19. > :11:24.their son and friend's two boys, she finally got him out of their rented

:11:25. > :11:27.accommodation in early December." Well, social services have

:11:28. > :11:32.apologised for failings in Ivy's case. We played you her full

:11:33. > :11:35.interview earlier. Here is an extract. It is distressing and there

:11:36. > :11:42.are some details that you might not want children to hear.

:11:43. > :11:45.It started off with sexual violence, so raping, and then progressed

:11:46. > :11:47.from there to physical violence, which started out as

:11:48. > :11:53.And then slowly progressed from there.

:11:54. > :11:55.There were weapons involved, in terms of a knife.

:11:56. > :11:59.Strangling me until I was unconscious.

:12:00. > :12:01.And then, later on, he involved other men,

:12:02. > :12:05.which obviously included raping by other men.

:12:06. > :12:07.What impact did all this have on you?

:12:08. > :12:10.I now suffer with complex post-traumatic stress disorder.

:12:11. > :12:22.I find it very hard to trust anybody.

:12:23. > :12:25.Eventually, the authorities realised you were at risk

:12:26. > :12:28.of very serious harm, and your children, and they moved

:12:29. > :12:35.But the social worker involved made a monumental error.

:12:36. > :12:37.She disclosed our address to my ex-husband.

:12:38. > :12:40.She claimed it was his parental right to know where his

:12:41. > :12:45.And what was the result of the social worker

:12:46. > :12:53.He found us at that address, and I was assaulted again by him.

:12:54. > :12:57.And, astonishingly, this happened a second time with the same social

:12:58. > :13:00.worker after you'd been moved again to safe accommodation.

:13:01. > :13:03.Yeah, yeah, she just did exactly the same as soon as we'd been

:13:04. > :13:10.You were dealt with by 18 different police officers.

:13:11. > :13:15.The original detective who had taken over the case,

:13:16. > :13:18.he decided he would only investigate the incidents that had occurred

:13:19. > :13:20.within the geographical area that he covered,

:13:21. > :13:23.and the rest of the incidents he farmed out to all the other areas.

:13:24. > :13:27.And so it ended up that there were 18 different officers

:13:28. > :13:32.I ultimately ended up standing on a motorway bridge just

:13:33. > :13:37.wanting to put an end to it all because I couldn't cope.

:13:38. > :13:39.Your ex-husband was still trying to find you.

:13:40. > :13:42.But the police had stopped investigating him.

:13:43. > :13:48.When we moved into the new area, the inspector who was in charge

:13:49. > :13:50.of our safeguarding, he said it was just impossible

:13:51. > :13:56.And he said, losing your life is not worth seeking justice.

:13:57. > :14:00.They are not allowed to have social media accounts.

:14:01. > :14:04.When they are with friends at school they have to be on constant alert

:14:05. > :14:10.One of them has been suicidal, turned to self harming.

:14:11. > :14:17.What do you hope to achieve by telling people what

:14:18. > :14:24.At the moment, the Government are happy that there

:14:25. > :14:27.And they seem to believe that's working, which it's not.

:14:28. > :14:30.It's awful to say that somebody can't seek justice,

:14:31. > :14:39.And Ivy's words were spoken for her then.

:14:40. > :14:43.Due to her levels of anonymity and the risk to her life

:14:44. > :14:45.from identifying any details, we have been unable to independently

:14:46. > :14:51.Watching that with us was Claire Waxman, a victim

:14:52. > :14:54.of stalking for 12 years and founder of Voice 4 Victims, which gives

:14:55. > :14:59.support to victims who are going through the criminal justice system.

:15:00. > :15:04.And Baroness Sal Brinton, who met Ivy as part

:15:05. > :15:07.She's trying to make amendments to the Victims Code

:15:08. > :15:15.in the House of Lords, to make it a statutory obligation.

:15:16. > :15:22.To make sure the relevant agencies do their job. Can we just talk about

:15:23. > :15:27.the social worker who twice disclosed the safe address to the

:15:28. > :15:31.violent ex-husband? I cannot get into the head of that social worker.

:15:32. > :15:39.You are telling me this is not an isolated case. Sadly not. Obviously,

:15:40. > :15:45.Ivy's cases extreme and harrowing. But I'm hearing daily from victims

:15:46. > :15:49.of all crime types who come to us, where their rights have been

:15:50. > :15:53.breached, where you have multiple agencies, not just social workers,

:15:54. > :15:56.people within the police, the courts, disclosing sensitive and

:15:57. > :16:03.personal information that rebuilds their identity or save addresses,

:16:04. > :16:09.that is quite common, sadly. In this particular case, it is so obvious

:16:10. > :16:13.that if the former husband comes and beats her up because he has now got

:16:14. > :16:18.her address, once, if he gets the second address, he will Dudi Sela

:16:19. > :16:26.thing. The social worker, and I'm only speculating, they don't see the

:16:27. > :16:30.point of view of the victim. They don't seem to get it. It is

:16:31. > :16:36.entrenched within the system. It is geared towards the abuser's rides.

:16:37. > :16:43.They seem to be manipulated by them. They seem to push more towards their

:16:44. > :16:50.side. With the victims law we want to make the system fair for

:16:51. > :16:58.everybody. Sal Brinton, what did you make of what Ivy has experienced? It

:16:59. > :17:03.was extreme but not unusual. There are plenty of victims I've talked to

:17:04. > :17:08.who have had some of the experiences that Ivy had. Ivy's story is

:17:09. > :17:12.particularly horrific. Everything seems to have gone wrong at every

:17:13. > :17:16.particular stage. But for one woman, for one thing to go wrong company as

:17:17. > :17:20.bad as the incident itself that actually brought her perpetrator

:17:21. > :17:24.into the criminal justice system. And that is the problem. Ministers

:17:25. > :17:30.keep saying the victim 's code is fine, it is there, victims have an

:17:31. > :17:37.entitlement. For example, to one police contact, one number.

:17:38. > :17:44.Repeatedly it doesn't happen. The real problem is there is no duty on

:17:45. > :17:52.the agencies to fulfil the victims' code. That is why we have been

:17:53. > :17:58.asking for a victims' law. Of course there is a duty to safeguard

:17:59. > :18:03.victims. It is their job. Some of them are. Unfortunately, it is

:18:04. > :18:07.patchy. That is because there is no duty on, for example, police, to

:18:08. > :18:09.provide proper training at all levels for everyone who comes into

:18:10. > :18:17.contact with the victims. Because it is not law. We haven't got the

:18:18. > :18:21.fundamental to right. The system is flawed and disjointed. There are

:18:22. > :18:25.lots of gaps. What we are pushing for it is a case companion who would

:18:26. > :18:30.bridge those gaps from agency to agency on behalf of the victim. In

:18:31. > :18:34.Ivy's case that would have helped to alert the issues. Make sure there is

:18:35. > :18:38.one point of contact for police interviews. There are enhanced

:18:39. > :18:44.entitlements for a victim such as Ivy, a vulnerable victim of sexual

:18:45. > :18:47.violence. She should have had the same sex officer, she should have

:18:48. > :18:52.that one officer. They should have limited it but they failed. But that

:18:53. > :18:55.is just one fairing of lots of feelings because the agencies are

:18:56. > :19:01.not adhering to the code. They don't understand what is within the code.

:19:02. > :19:05.That is the fundamental problem. And the notion that in the end she was

:19:06. > :19:09.advised to drop the case because the detective who did care and who was

:19:10. > :19:13.trying to do his job properly, couldn't guarantee that all of the

:19:14. > :19:18.other officers who would be involved might inadvertently disclose her

:19:19. > :19:27.location again? Absolutely. We have heard evidence from the families of

:19:28. > :19:33.people who have been murdered. Alice, who was on early, would not

:19:34. > :19:36.be covered by the victims' code because it excludes the Department

:19:37. > :19:44.for Work and Pensions and the National health service. There are

:19:45. > :19:48.holes in the victim's code. In terms of your campaign, which you have

:19:49. > :19:57.been running for three years, where are you up to in terms of trying to

:19:58. > :20:01.make the victims' code law? Last week we got a concession. We met

:20:02. > :20:07.with the ministers. The ministers were firm. They said to us that the

:20:08. > :20:10.code works. We said it didn't. You are not seeing the evidence. We are

:20:11. > :20:16.giving report after report. We giving you case studies. We can't

:20:17. > :20:19.show of how much this code is failing. They have made a concession

:20:20. > :20:27.to a 12 month time frame where they can review the code, look at making

:20:28. > :20:31.agencies accountable, so that we, the victims, will continue to hold

:20:32. > :20:35.the government to account on that. We have got a statement. We asked

:20:36. > :20:38.for an interview with someone from the Department of Justice and they

:20:39. > :20:43.gave us a statement. They recognise more needs to be done which is why

:20:44. > :20:46.they have committed to strengthening victims' rights. They will set out

:20:47. > :20:51.their strategy in due course. What does that mean? Nothing at the

:20:52. > :20:55.moment because that is what they have been saying for the last couple

:20:56. > :20:58.of years. That is less strong than the ministers said to me in the

:20:59. > :21:01.chamber last week, where she said specifically they would bring

:21:02. > :21:06.forward legislation to make sure the agencies fulfilled their duties if

:21:07. > :21:11.the review showed that is not happening. I will hold them to

:21:12. > :21:14.account. They are not seeing this as a priority. They are being told by

:21:15. > :21:20.officers that that code is working fine. We have heard all of the

:21:21. > :21:27.victims' agencies of terrible failings. Putting victims at high

:21:28. > :21:31.risk and creating more trauma. They need to take action now. We have to

:21:32. > :21:37.keep pushing them. Thank you for coming in. Claire Waxman and

:21:38. > :21:40.Baroness Sal Brinton. We will continue to follow their progress.

:21:41. > :21:42.It's not even been a week since President Donald Trump's

:21:43. > :21:44.inauguration, and there's a war of words developing with

:21:45. > :21:48.A man at the heart of the row is President Trump's press

:21:49. > :21:52.He's repeatedly accused the mainstream media of lying

:21:53. > :21:57.about how many people had turned out for Friday's inauguration,

:21:58. > :22:01.despite images which seemed to show otherwise.

:22:02. > :22:03.This gave rise to the phrase "alternative facts", as one

:22:04. > :22:07.of his colleagues, KellyAnne Conway, defended him.

:22:08. > :22:11.It's a phrase we're going to be hearing a lot

:22:12. > :22:15.The White House Chief of Staff, Reince Priebus, went further,

:22:16. > :22:17.accusing parts of the American media of trying to "de-legitimise"

:22:18. > :22:24.So will the world of alternative facts harm his presidency,

:22:25. > :22:26.or will the traditional media be the losers,

:22:27. > :22:29.as Trump continues his direct connection with his voters

:22:30. > :22:33.Here's some of what happened in a press conference last night

:22:34. > :22:41.Does the president believe that millions voted illegally in this

:22:42. > :22:44.election and what evidence do you have of widespread voter fraud

:22:45. > :22:52.I think he stated his concerns voter fraud and people voting illegally

:22:53. > :22:55.during the campaign and he continues to maintain that belief based

:22:56. > :22:58.on studies and evidence that people presented to him.

:22:59. > :23:03.Speaker Ryan said there is no evidence.

:23:04. > :23:05.The National Association of Secretaries of State say

:23:06. > :23:07.that they don't agree with the president's assessment.

:23:08. > :23:11.As I said, I think the president has believed that for

:23:12. > :23:16.He again asserted that he would have won the popular vote

:23:17. > :23:19.if it weren't for three to five million illegal votes.

:23:20. > :23:21.Did you feel the need to correct him?

:23:22. > :23:24.Does it trouble you that he continues to hold a belief like this

:23:25. > :23:27.Look, I've already commented on that.

:23:28. > :23:30.I have seen no evidence to that effect and I've made

:23:31. > :23:36.The president of the United States is claiming that 3.5 million

:23:37. > :23:39.people voted illegally, that shakes confidence

:23:40. > :23:45.He needs to disclose why he believes that are.

:23:46. > :23:48.It is most inappropriate thing for the president

:23:49. > :23:57.Photographs of the inaugural proceedings were intentionally

:23:58. > :24:01.framed in a way in one particular tweet to minimise the enormous

:24:02. > :24:05.support that it gathered on the national mall.

:24:06. > :24:08.We know that 420,000 people used the DC Metro Public Transit

:24:09. > :24:13.yesterday which is actually compares to 317,000 that used it for

:24:14. > :24:21.This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration

:24:22. > :24:24.period both in person and around the globe.

:24:25. > :24:26.You're saying it is a falsehood and they're giving shaken Spicer,

:24:27. > :24:28.our press secretary gave alternatives facts to that,

:24:29. > :24:40.Alternative facts for the five facts he uttered.

:24:41. > :24:43.Look alternative facts are not facts.

:24:44. > :24:47.Chuck, do you think it's a fact or not that millions of people have

:24:48. > :24:50.lost their plans or health insurance and their doctors

:24:51. > :24:54.Do you think it is a fact that everything we heard from these women

:24:55. > :24:56.yesterday happeneded on the watch of Barack Obama?

:24:57. > :25:00.Donald Trump has been here more about eight hours.

:25:01. > :25:06.Is it your intention to always tell the truth from that podium

:25:07. > :25:09.and will you pledge to never glowingingly say that's not factual?

:25:10. > :25:14.It is an honour to do this and yes, I believe that we have to be honest

:25:15. > :25:18.I think sometimes we can disagree with the facts.

:25:19. > :25:20.Let's talk now to Thomas Friedman, New York Times columnist.

:25:21. > :25:24.He says President Trump's distortion of the truth makes him

:25:25. > :25:35.President Trump paid his company $94 million to run his digital campaign

:25:36. > :25:38.Journalist Steve Gruber runs a Conservative talk show.

:25:39. > :25:40.He's in Michigan, voted for Donald Trump and

:25:41. > :25:43.he says Mr Trump will easily win a second term in 2020

:25:44. > :25:45.if the press continue to attack him unnecessarily.

:25:46. > :25:47.We're also joined by Jena Friedman, a Democrat and stand-up

:25:48. > :25:54.comedian who has worked on the The Daily Show.

:25:55. > :25:58.Thomas Friedman, we heard Sean Spicer sing the New York Times had

:25:59. > :26:07.got it wrong. How are you responding? The facts are the facts.

:26:08. > :26:11.We have photos, we have the numbers. How many people turned out for

:26:12. > :26:17.Obama's first inauguration, how many turned out for this. You can't say

:26:18. > :26:21.the Earth revolves around the sun and you think the sun revolves

:26:22. > :26:28.around the earth. Maths is maths. Two plus two never adds up to five.

:26:29. > :26:31.This administration seems to have a certain proclivity for a making of

:26:32. > :26:36.their own map. Eventually it will completely undermine them because

:26:37. > :26:40.I've just written a new book, which is about the moment that we are in

:26:41. > :26:45.right now. We are in a moment of incredible acceleration, where small

:26:46. > :26:50.areas of navigation can have huge consequences. On one of the problems

:26:51. > :26:56.Trump will have is, sometime in the next few months, North Korea, for

:26:57. > :26:58.example, the CAA will tell the president they have developed a

:26:59. > :27:06.long-range missile that can hit Los Angeles. -- the CIA. Maybe something

:27:07. > :27:10.bad will go wrong. He will have to come to the American people and say,

:27:11. > :27:16.look, these were the facts. And people will say, are those like the

:27:17. > :27:21.fact that two plus two added up to five at the inauguration? He is

:27:22. > :27:24.setting himself up to completely undermine his leadership. Steve

:27:25. > :27:33.Gruber, you are shaking your head in disagreement. Let's start with this.

:27:34. > :27:37.Three electoral votes to two of the Win32. Hillary Clinton's turnout for

:27:38. > :27:40.his inauguration was zero. The fact that the matter is Donald Trump was

:27:41. > :27:46.doing exactly what the people elected him to do, to deal with TPP,

:27:47. > :27:49.the keystone pipeline, jobs and immigration. The distraction of

:27:50. > :27:57.crowd size and illegal voting is all fine and well... You may be right

:27:58. > :28:02.using the word distraction. But why is Sean Spicer disputing facts? I

:28:03. > :28:07.was there and it looked like a million people to me. What matters

:28:08. > :28:13.honestly, seriously, this is what matters in people in Michigan where

:28:14. > :28:24.I am, Donald Trump will carry Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania.

:28:25. > :28:28.Can you imagine leaders who had endorsed Hillary Clinton are now on

:28:29. > :28:32.board the Donald Trump bandwagon. If Madonna, Ashley Judd, if the media,

:28:33. > :28:37.if everybody across America continue to attack Donald Trump in this way,

:28:38. > :28:41.the silent majority that arose up in the middle of America, in the middle

:28:42. > :28:44.class working families and home, will return Donald Trump to the

:28:45. > :28:48.White House once again. I say put Michael Moore on tour. We would like

:28:49. > :28:55.to see him every day and hear what he has to say. It helps Donald

:28:56. > :29:01.Trump's calls every day. You not answering the question. The question

:29:02. > :29:05.was, it was a lie. I think it's interesting with pundits how you

:29:06. > :29:15.talk so quickly that you can kind of avoid Victoria's question. I didn't

:29:16. > :29:20.avoid any questions. You chose to talk about the oil pipeline and the

:29:21. > :29:26.workers. Absolutely, that is a huge issue. That is what he was elected

:29:27. > :29:34.to do. Absolutely but we are talking about the facts that Sean Spicer has

:29:35. > :29:37.disputed at the weekend. It was suggested they are putting forward

:29:38. > :29:45.alternative facts, which we know our lives. What is your question? Why

:29:46. > :29:49.are you doing that? Are you saying illegal aliens didn't vote? Of

:29:50. > :29:53.course they voted. We should do an investigation of illegal voting in

:29:54. > :30:04.this country. Donald Trump likes to win and run the table at everything

:30:05. > :30:10.he does. Talk about alternative facts. Voter suppression where?

:30:11. > :30:15.Demonstrate something. You cannot. North Carolina. Site Mac --. You

:30:16. > :30:19.have no proof. That isn't the outrageous. You have no proof. Is

:30:20. > :30:27.the Trump administration making claims that are false? I don't think

:30:28. > :30:29.so. I was at the inauguration. It was considerably. I think all of

:30:30. > :30:41.this stuff is BS. If I look at my photo, I took one of

:30:42. > :30:46.the very last photos, there are no blank spots. That photo was taken an

:30:47. > :30:56.hour-and-a-half before the end. I happen to agree with that. I was

:30:57. > :31:01.live at the inauguration myself. Do you know what the good news is?

:31:02. > :31:07.We don't have Article 50 in America and we will continue on with our

:31:08. > :31:14.president Donald Trump who was elected with 57% of the electoral

:31:15. > :31:19.college. What people are disputing is the fact that he is president. I

:31:20. > :31:22.would like him to succeed, OK. Shut shut up for a second! I would like

:31:23. > :31:26.to see him succeed because unfortunately we're all in the same

:31:27. > :31:31.boat with him, but he's not going to succeed if we get into a crisis

:31:32. > :31:37.where the facts are on his side, but he is so repeatedly lied that we are

:31:38. > :31:41.going to not believe him when we actually need to. No one is

:31:42. > :31:49.disputing his election. That's not the issue here. Clearly, you

:31:50. > :31:56.supported. What does that have to do with anything? You said you'd

:31:57. > :32:02.support him in a crisis. Let me bring in Brad because Brad worked...

:32:03. > :32:08.My impression was that the sun was revolving around the Earth. We got

:32:09. > :32:16.that point! Brad, you worked on Brand Trump. Is that the right thing

:32:17. > :32:28.to do? Is it the right thing to do? There is a lot going on. I think the

:32:29. > :32:31.press continues to try and push doubt and delegitimise who Donald

:32:32. > :32:36.Trump is and it is important to make sure you hold the press accountable

:32:37. > :32:42.and those pictures and images that were put up is false. The time

:32:43. > :32:46.stamps were different. He did lose the popular vote, you guys. There is

:32:47. > :32:49.still something to debate about the fact that it wasn't like a mandate.

:32:50. > :32:56.He doesn't have a mandate. Just saying. As we continue to talk about

:32:57. > :33:00.size, if size matters... For the Liberal Democrats is the media. If I

:33:01. > :33:05.had enough money to compete against all of them as well, we probably

:33:06. > :33:09.would have won the popular vote. Donald Trump has been successful for

:33:10. > :33:12.18 months taking shots at the media. It worked for him. In America the

:33:13. > :33:18.institutions that are least trusted or Congress and the media comes in

:33:19. > :33:25.behind Congress. They are not respected and not trusted. A final

:33:26. > :33:28.word from Thomas, the New York Times columnist, how are you going to play

:33:29. > :33:34.this through Donald Trump's presidency? All we can do is what we

:33:35. > :33:40.do and try to report the news accurately without fear or favour.

:33:41. > :33:45.Do you it day in and day out and if we make mistakes, which we do, you

:33:46. > :33:49.correct them. That's all you can ask of the press, but that's all you can

:33:50. > :33:53.ask of a president. If people get the feeling that this is a man who

:33:54. > :33:57.just makes stuff up, we will reach a crisis point where that's really

:33:58. > :34:00.going to matter because we're going to do something big and hard and he

:34:01. > :34:06.will need the American people to believe him. And we don't. Thank

:34:07. > :34:13.you. Thank you very much all of you. Thank you for your time. Steve voted

:34:14. > :34:17.for Donald Trump, Brad was working for President Trump on the

:34:18. > :34:24.presidential campaign, on the Trump presidential campaign running the

:34:25. > :34:26.digital side of things. Jenna who voted Democrat and Thomas, from the

:34:27. > :34:43.New York Times. A young Syrian girl has written an

:34:44. > :34:45.open letter to Donald Trump. She was tweeting about her life in the

:34:46. > :34:50.besieged part of the city. One of her first tweets says:

:34:51. > :34:52.She's in East Aleppo, and it's her last moment to either

:34:53. > :34:56.live or die. She goes on to say,

:34:57. > :34:58."My dad is injured now. In another, she tells her growing

:34:59. > :35:07.number of followers she's happy She shared a lot of pictures

:35:08. > :35:13.of other children in Aleppo before she was evacuated in December,

:35:14. > :35:33.hoping to return home one day. Bana's mother has been criticised.

:35:34. > :35:37.Some Here is the little girl's letter to Mr Trump.

:35:38. > :35:40."Dear Donald Trump, my name is Bana Alabed and I am a seven

:35:41. > :35:46.I lived in Syria my whole life before I left from besieged

:35:47. > :35:54.I am part of the Syrian children who suffered from the Syrian war.

:35:55. > :35:58.But right now, I am having a peace in my new home of Turkey.

:35:59. > :36:01.In Aleppo, I was in school, but soon it was destroyed

:36:02. > :36:07.I'm very sad about them and wish they were with me

:36:08. > :36:09.because we would play together by right now.

:36:10. > :36:12.I couldn't play in Aleppo, it was the city of death.

:36:13. > :36:14.Right now in Turkey, I can go out and enjoy.

:36:15. > :36:18.I can go to school although I didn't yet.

:36:19. > :36:24.That is why peace is important for everyone including you.

:36:25. > :36:27.However, millions of Syrian children are not like me right now

:36:28. > :36:30.and suffering in different parts of Syria.

:36:31. > :36:34.They're suffering because of adult people.

:36:35. > :36:38.I know you will be the president of America, so can you please save

:36:39. > :36:43.You must do something for the children of Syria

:36:44. > :36:46.because they're like your children and deserve peace like you.

:36:47. > :36:49.If you promise me you will do something for the children of Syria,

:36:50. > :37:02.I'm looking forward to what you will do for the children of Syria."

:37:03. > :37:11.This news just in from the Metropolitan Police. A man has been

:37:12. > :37:14.arrested of suspicion of rationally aggravated malicious communications.

:37:15. > :37:19.Tom Symonds is here. Fill us in. Well, we understand this is related

:37:20. > :37:24.to the case of Gina Miller, the named party as the lawyers would

:37:25. > :37:29.call her in the Supreme Court case relating to Brexit and now in is an

:37:30. > :37:33.arrest of a 50-year-old man in Knightsbridge, related to as you say

:37:34. > :37:36.the malicious communications. Malicious communications made, the

:37:37. > :37:41.Met says on 6th November. That's three days after the Appeal Court

:37:42. > :37:45.judgement in the Brexit case, so that's the first lower court that

:37:46. > :37:50.considered this. And we understand also that it is linked to unrelated

:37:51. > :37:56.comments made by the same suspect in August 2016 and also at the same

:37:57. > :38:00.investigation which is a team from something called Operation Falcon

:38:01. > :38:04.which specialises in tracing people online and talking to social media

:38:05. > :38:07.companies that they in a similar investigation arrest add 55-year-old

:38:08. > :38:13.man in Swindon in early December. Now, we know that was connected to

:38:14. > :38:17.complaints made by Gina Miller. So, clearly, an investigation going on

:38:18. > :38:20.into concerns about what is said about her online. Thank you. Tom

:38:21. > :38:28.Symonds. A North Korean diplomat who defected

:38:29. > :38:31.last year from its London embassy has told the BBC

:38:32. > :38:33.he thinks its leader Kim Jong-un would be prepared to attack

:38:34. > :38:36.Los Angeles with nuclear weapons, if his survival in

:38:37. > :38:38.power depended on it. The high-ranking defector,

:38:39. > :38:40.Thae Yong-ho, says the North Korean leader doesn't yet have

:38:41. > :38:42.the capability, but is getting closer to an effective

:38:43. > :38:45.nuclear arsenal. I'm sure that my relatives,

:38:46. > :38:57.and my brother and sister's families by now are all sent to either remote

:38:58. > :39:00.closed areas, or prison camps, you know, so that

:39:01. > :39:09.really breaks my heart. If you could imagine your brother

:39:10. > :39:16.shouting at you, "why Oh, that is really, you know,

:39:17. > :39:35.a question which I do not like even to think about,

:39:36. > :39:40.yes, but that's why I'm very much now determined to do everything

:39:41. > :39:45.possible to pull down the North Korean regime,

:39:46. > :39:48.to save not only my family members but the whole North Korean

:39:49. > :39:56.people from slavery. Do you think you'll ever

:39:57. > :39:58.see your brother again? I'm absolutely sure,

:39:59. > :40:02.and this is my dream, If, when Kim Jong-un

:40:03. > :40:12.gets the bomb properly, and missiles to deliver,

:40:13. > :40:14.is he capable of pressing that Oh, Kim Jong-un knows quite well

:40:15. > :40:22.that a nuclear weapon is the only guarantee for his rule,

:40:23. > :40:29.and Kim Jong-un, I think, will press the button of this

:40:30. > :40:43.dangerous, you know, the weapons, when he thinks

:40:44. > :40:49.that his rule and his dynasty is threatened, you know,

:40:50. > :41:03.to be collapsed. He would destroy Los

:41:04. > :41:06.Angeles, even though Yes, yes, because he knew that

:41:07. > :41:15.if he loses the power, then it is his last day,

:41:16. > :41:24.so he may do anything, you know, even to attack

:41:25. > :41:33.Los Angeles, because, you know, once the people know that

:41:34. > :41:41.in any way you will be killed, That is the human

:41:42. > :41:51.being's normal reaction. How do you think Kim Jong-un

:41:52. > :41:54.will end his days? Is he going to die

:41:55. > :41:56.peacefully in his own bed? I'm sure that the Kim Jong-un regime

:41:57. > :42:05.will one day collapse That was Thae Yong-ho,

:42:06. > :42:17.a North Korean diplomat who defected He said had been persuaded

:42:18. > :42:27.to defect by his younger son who kept asking about the true

:42:28. > :42:30.nature of life inside North Korea. So how does the secretive

:42:31. > :45:39.state function? We can talk now to Jihyun Park,

:45:40. > :45:44.who defected twice from North Korea. She's now living here in Britain

:45:45. > :45:47.and campaigns for Human Rights She's been here watching

:45:48. > :46:00.that interview with us. Good morning. You have seen what the

:46:01. > :46:06.diplomat has revealed about North Korea. What do you think about what

:46:07. > :46:22.he said? Firstly I would like to say to him congratulations. I totally

:46:23. > :46:28.agreed with him. He said that North Korea is not a democratic country.

:46:29. > :46:45.It is a slavery country. I totally agree with him. He said that he

:46:46. > :46:46.watched South Korea's shows and drama and listened to South Korea

:46:47. > :47:09.radio. Him and the media... Is that how you

:47:10. > :47:17.would describe how you felt when you are living there, you were

:47:18. > :47:31.brainwashed? Yes. I lived in North Korea. We always learned about the

:47:32. > :47:38.Kim families, their histories. We always respected to him. We always

:47:39. > :47:42.showed happiness to them. Even when you are experiencing salmon. You

:47:43. > :47:50.witnessed members of your own family dying of starvation, but you had to

:47:51. > :47:57.respect that family? Yes, I saw my family die in front of me. I just

:47:58. > :48:06.hated Americans and South Korea. They did something to us. We hadn't

:48:07. > :48:10.got any proof. I hated them. You eventually got out. But you ended up

:48:11. > :48:15.been the victim of traffickers and were sold to someone in China. The

:48:16. > :48:22.police caught you and to give back to North Korea. What was that like?

:48:23. > :48:35.Many North Korean refugees escaped North Korea. In the 1990s there was

:48:36. > :48:45.famine in North Korea. People only want to survive, so they escaped and

:48:46. > :48:50.went to China. But the Chinese Godman never accepted the refugees.

:48:51. > :48:59.The Chinese government abandoned us. -- government. I went to the Labour

:49:00. > :49:06.camp for six months. What is it like working in a labour camp? When I

:49:07. > :49:15.went there for the first time, we had no clothes. Are you saying you

:49:16. > :49:29.were naked, or might they gave used off to where? Yes. They searched our

:49:30. > :49:48.bodies. Many people hide money. You are strip-searched? Yes. They search

:49:49. > :49:55.everywhere. I was very ashamed. Not only once. It happened several

:49:56. > :50:04.times. After I went to the Labour camp... We hadn't got anything with

:50:05. > :50:10.us. Only hands and our bare feet. What work or you do in there? Farm

:50:11. > :50:22.work. -- what work were you doing there? Also, another problem is

:50:23. > :50:37.there is no toilet in the Labour camp.

:50:38. > :50:49.Other women worked with me. One woman was three months pregnant. The

:50:50. > :51:01.North Korean government wouldn't accept this baby.

:51:02. > :51:11.This man put some sand in his sock and rain to the mountain. And after,

:51:12. > :51:17.she miscarried the baby. So she had to put a heavy bag on and run up and

:51:18. > :51:33.down the mountain to miscarry the baby? Yes.

:51:34. > :51:42.We used to run. Not what. Thank you so much for giving us and insight. I

:51:43. > :51:44.know you've found some of that very difficult. I really appreciate what

:51:45. > :51:54.you have told us today. Thank you. Next, plans which force women

:51:55. > :51:57.to prove that a third child has been born as a result of rape,

:51:58. > :52:00.in order to claim tax credits, have been described

:52:01. > :52:07.as "inhumane" and "degrading". From April, Child Tax Credit will be

:52:08. > :52:11.limited to a family's first two children -

:52:12. > :52:13.but the government announced an exception to that for women whose

:52:14. > :52:16.third or subsequent child was born However, they say the woman

:52:17. > :52:20.will need to provide evidence Earlier this morning,

:52:21. > :52:37.two women who have been raped, One woman who has been raped, spoke

:52:38. > :52:44.earlier. They scoffed at me when I told them.

:52:45. > :52:48.The first police officer I spoke to said it was sex without regrets. If

:52:49. > :52:53.somebody doesn't say this is happening, it will keep happening.

:52:54. > :52:57.I'm in a position which I've got fantastic support. I've had access

:52:58. > :53:00.to private therapy, all the support I could possibly need to make the

:53:01. > :53:07.choice to speak about this. But the point is it is a choice. If I find

:53:08. > :53:12.it too hard, I can stop. If you ask me a question, I could say no. There

:53:13. > :53:17.is no support for these women. There is nothing to say go through this

:53:18. > :53:20.traumatising experience and we will ensure you have mental health

:53:21. > :53:26.support. None of that at all. They are being forced effectively to

:53:27. > :53:27.choose between possibly child poverty for their children or to go

:53:28. > :53:29.through this drama. We wanted to speak to the Department

:53:30. > :53:32.for Work and Pensions about this, but they turned down our request

:53:33. > :53:35.for an interview, telling us it will be "delivered in the most

:53:36. > :53:38.effective, compassionate way", and that they've "consulted

:53:39. > :53:40.to ensure the right exceptions We can speak now to Alison Thewliss,

:53:41. > :53:46.the SNP MP for Glasgow Central. She has been campaigning

:53:47. > :53:50.against the so-called rape clause. Rebecca Hitchen is from

:53:51. > :53:55.Rape Crisis South London. And Richard Graham is

:53:56. > :53:57.Conservative MP for Gloucester and a member of the Work

:53:58. > :54:09.and Pensions select committee. Mr Graham, do you back this? I think

:54:10. > :54:14.the response to the consultation which I've read does allow for a

:54:15. > :54:19.whole series of exceptions to the changes to child tax credit. The one

:54:20. > :54:24.on people who have been raped is incredibly sensitive,

:54:25. > :54:31.understandably. Members of my own family have been raped. So I know

:54:32. > :54:36.this. So you do back it? I back the fact that the government is allowing

:54:37. > :54:41.for rapes proved in court, but in cursive relationships in family

:54:42. > :54:44.relationships as well. The difficulty is where you effectively

:54:45. > :54:47.have a process to recognise where that has happened and it has less to

:54:48. > :54:53.the birth of a third or subsequent child. What the government is trying

:54:54. > :54:56.to do is try to find a way of doing this as sensitively as possible

:54:57. > :54:59.through health care professionals, social workers or specialist

:55:00. > :55:03.charities. And if there are other groups that others think could play

:55:04. > :55:07.an important part in this, I think the government is still open to

:55:08. > :55:12.listening. You must be talking about saving pennies, really? It's about

:55:13. > :55:16.really trying to be fair to everyone, to those who are not going

:55:17. > :55:19.to get tax credits if they have more than two children in the future and

:55:20. > :55:25.to those paying for the system as well. So it doesn't just become an

:55:26. > :55:30.easy option to say, I didn't want to have this child but my partner

:55:31. > :55:35.forced me to. It's just simply a way of finding the most sensitive way of

:55:36. > :55:41.recognising it. An easy option? What is the easy option? Tell me what you

:55:42. > :55:45.think the easy option is? I think that is the best way for Dhekelia.

:55:46. > :55:52.Otherwise you have a system where anybody might say that I was raped.

:55:53. > :55:58.Do you really believe someone would say that? I don't think it is about

:55:59. > :56:02.questioning people's will to do that. It is about just saying we

:56:03. > :56:11.have got to have a sensitive system that is fair. Allyson Felix, is this

:56:12. > :56:15.a sensitive -- sensible system? It is not sensible or fair. It is

:56:16. > :56:20.traumatising women who have already gone through considerable trauma in

:56:21. > :56:22.the first place. They will not be cross-examined, they will not be

:56:23. > :56:28.assessed, they will simply have to bring a letter from a social worker,

:56:29. > :56:32.GP or police officer? There will still have to tell that person in

:56:33. > :56:36.the first place. Say you don't have a social worker, and you feel that

:56:37. > :56:40.to do that would put you at risk, you will not tell a social worker

:56:41. > :56:44.that your husband is raping you. Rebecca Hitchen, what is your

:56:45. > :56:49.concern? I have many concerns. One of them has just been echoed. The

:56:50. > :56:53.idea that women lie about rape. That is not the case. And the reality for

:56:54. > :56:58.women of what this will mean is going to be incredibly difficult.

:56:59. > :57:02.There will be a high risk of them being traumatised again. You

:57:03. > :57:06.mentioned there will not be any assessment. From my reading their

:57:07. > :57:10.Wildie. It will be that doctors or social workers have two assessed the

:57:11. > :57:13.circumstances of the woman to determine whether they believe it is

:57:14. > :57:20.commensurate with someone who has been raped. We have heard today

:57:21. > :57:23.about personal judgments and failure of agencies that occurred time and

:57:24. > :57:33.time again. That is likely to occur in these scenarios as well. What are

:57:34. > :57:37.you going to do about this? The government as its -- it will, going

:57:38. > :57:41.to force in April. I hope there will be an opportunity to challenge it in

:57:42. > :57:47.Parliament then. The government has not done enough to speak to civil

:57:48. > :57:52.service unions. To DWP staff who have to implement this, they still

:57:53. > :57:55.don't know what they are expected to do as well, which is worrying if

:57:56. > :58:00.you're dealing with someone sensitive circumstances. We have had

:58:01. > :58:05.a number of comments from our viewers. This is appalling. I'm

:58:06. > :58:10.embarrassed by this country. Whoever came up with this insensitive ruling

:58:11. > :58:14.should be fired. I think that's slightly wrong. What the government

:58:15. > :58:18.has done is respond to people who wrote into the government's on

:58:19. > :58:23.consultation asking for ideas as to how best to implement this,

:58:24. > :58:28.recognising that it was such a sensitive area, and taking it beyond

:58:29. > :58:31.statutory rape and criminal cases, and recognising there are situations

:58:32. > :58:34.where coerces or controlling behaviour in an intimate

:58:35. > :58:40.relationship could lead to this sort of situation. I think the select

:58:41. > :58:44.committee will look at this and decided we want to take further

:58:45. > :58:46.evidence and look again the issue. I think it is a more sensitive

:58:47. > :58:52.response than people are giving it credit for. The government are not

:58:53. > :58:57.listening. They have ignored the concerns of women organisations.

:58:58. > :59:00.Thank you. Thanks for coming on the programme. We are back tomorrow. Had

:59:01. > :59:03.We know you understand the risks associated with your pregnancy.

:59:04. > :59:07.Because I'm smaller, people think my hopes are not so great.