26/04/2017

:00:10. > :00:11.Hello. It's Wednesday.

:00:12. > :00:12.It's 9am. I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

:00:13. > :00:19.With a general election six weeks away, voter apathy remains high.

:00:20. > :00:22.We took two women who don't like politics to spend

:00:23. > :00:29.I wasn't too sure why the Speaker speaks in that weird voice

:00:30. > :00:34.And then it made it hard to understand what he was saying.

:00:35. > :00:42.Right, my name is Kiara and it was like Ki-ar-ra.

:00:43. > :00:48.We'll bring you that full report in around 15 minutes time.

:00:49. > :00:50.The puppy farm murders - Surrey Police have been criticised

:00:51. > :00:53.for returning a collection of shotguns to a man

:00:54. > :00:55.who went on to kill his partner and her daughter.

:00:56. > :01:01.We found systematic failings from the local force and also we feel

:01:02. > :01:07.that there are lessons to be learnt nationally.

:01:08. > :01:10.And teachers say they're regularly receiving abuse from parents -

:01:11. > :01:12.and it's driving them away from the profession.

:01:13. > :01:14.We'll hear from teachers who say parents have

:01:15. > :01:28.Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:01:29. > :01:30.and developing stories and, as always, keen

:01:31. > :01:37.Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning.

:01:38. > :01:42.Labour has promised to increase pay for NHS staff and scrap tuition fees

:01:43. > :01:43.for student nurses if it wins the general election.

:01:44. > :01:47.The party says it will abolish the current cap for staff in England

:01:48. > :01:51.Labour said the policies would help address staffing shortages

:01:52. > :01:52.in England that had become a "threat to patients".

:01:53. > :02:00.Our Political Guru Norman Smith is in Westminster for us now.

:02:01. > :02:06.Hi Norman, good morning. So, how much will this pay rise be for NHS

:02:07. > :02:10.staff? Well, Labour are saying they want people in the NHS to get a pay

:02:11. > :02:13.rise in line with the cost of living. So that means going up, I

:02:14. > :02:18.guess, in line with inflation which at the moment is around 2.5% and

:02:19. > :02:22.that, of course, follows years of pay caps and pay freezes. I think it

:02:23. > :02:28.is seven years of caps and freezes. So, pay in the NHS has gone down

:02:29. > :02:32.really for a long time. Labour say you have got to reverse that because

:02:33. > :02:39.people are leaving the NHS. It is undermining staff morale and they're

:02:40. > :02:43.putting that together with money to ensure that staffing on wards is at

:02:44. > :02:48.a safe level. They want to set-up a review to decide what is the safe

:02:49. > :02:52.level for staffing and then to legislate to ensure that wards have

:02:53. > :03:00.adequate numbers of nurses there. So that too will cost money and they're

:03:01. > :03:04.suggesting they want to reintroduce student bursaries for people who

:03:05. > :03:08.want to become nurses. It is a big package, but it is an expensive

:03:09. > :03:14.package probably runs into billions of pounds. They said that would

:03:15. > :03:17.address staff shortages. 24,000 nursing vacancies in England. How do

:03:18. > :03:21.they say they would pay for this then? Well, there we are in foggy

:03:22. > :03:25.terrain shall we say? At the moment Labour say we can get the money from

:03:26. > :03:28.reversing some of the tax changes introduced by the Tories

:03:29. > :03:33.particularly the cut in corporation tax. Now, they say if you reversed

:03:34. > :03:37.those tax cuts including inheritance tax and lowering the top rate of tax

:03:38. > :03:40.you could get ?70 billion. There is a big question mark about that

:03:41. > :03:45.because this money seems to have been spent quite a few times because

:03:46. > :03:49.we know Labour have committed to reverse tuition fees, renationalise

:03:50. > :03:55.the railways and reverse various benefit cuts. A load of spending

:03:56. > :03:58.commitments so the details have to be gone through meticulously, but

:03:59. > :04:04.Labour are saying when they produce their manifesto it will be fully

:04:05. > :04:07.funded, but be in no doubt Vic we will be getting our calculators out

:04:08. > :04:12.and going through the sums to see if they actually add up. Thank you very

:04:13. > :04:15.much, Norman. More from Norman through the rest of the year and

:04:16. > :04:18.through the rest of your lives, hopefully.

:04:19. > :04:20.Annita is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:04:21. > :04:24.Surrey Police have been strongly criticised for returning

:04:25. > :04:29.a collection of shotguns to a man who went on to kill his partner

:04:30. > :04:33.Christine and Lucy Lee were shot by 82-year-old John Lowe in 2014.

:04:34. > :04:36.A report by the Independent Police Complaints Commission has

:04:37. > :04:38.highlighted serious failings by the force as our correspondent

:04:39. > :04:44.This was the moment police arrived at John Lowe's puppy farm

:04:45. > :04:50.near Farnham to find he'd murdered two women.

:04:51. > :04:54.He had shot his partner Christine Lee and her daughter Lucy

:04:55. > :05:00.And nobody would have got near him...

:05:01. > :05:03.Lowe, who was 82 at the time, was later jailed for life

:05:04. > :05:08.with the judge's recommendation that he serve at least 25 years.

:05:09. > :05:10.It emerged that a year before the murders.

:05:11. > :05:12.Lowe had a number of shotguns seized by Surrey Police,

:05:13. > :05:18.but the weapons had then been returned to him.

:05:19. > :05:20.They included the shotgun he used on the two women.

:05:21. > :05:23.Today, that decision by Surrey Police to hand the guns back

:05:24. > :05:28.by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

:05:29. > :05:32.We found systematic failings for the local force and also we feel

:05:33. > :05:37.that there are lessons to be learned nationally by police forces

:05:38. > :05:41.to ensure that their firearms licensing teams are up to the job.

:05:42. > :05:44.Surrey Police have apologised to the family of Christine

:05:45. > :05:47.and Lucy Lee, saying that the decision to hand

:05:48. > :05:52.back the shotguns to John Lowe was flawed.

:05:53. > :05:54.It said one firearms licensing officer had been sacked

:05:55. > :05:59.Today's report said the death of Christine and Lucy Lee

:06:00. > :06:04.And that whilst these incidents were rare,

:06:05. > :06:16.all forces had to check carefully anyone who wanted a gun.

:06:17. > :06:19.Before 10am, Victoria will be talking to the deputy commissioner

:06:20. > :06:24.of Surrey Police about that case. Detectives investigating

:06:25. > :06:25.the disappearance of Madeleine McCann say

:06:26. > :06:27.they are still pursuing what they describe as "critical

:06:28. > :06:36.leads" in the case. Next week will mark ten years

:06:37. > :06:38.since the three-year-old disappeared while on holiday

:06:39. > :06:40.with her parents in Portugal. Our Home Affairs Correspondent

:06:41. > :06:42.Tom Symonds reports. A desperate search with the media

:06:43. > :06:45.following every step. What happened here?

:06:46. > :06:48.Where is Madeleine McCann? This is still a missing

:06:49. > :06:52.persons inquiry. Despite 2014's extensive police

:06:53. > :06:58.searches in Portugal, there is no definitive

:06:59. > :07:03.evidence she is dead. For six years, with government

:07:04. > :07:05.money, the Metropolitan Police have been reviewing

:07:06. > :07:07.everything from scratch. We have a significant line

:07:08. > :07:13.of inquiry which is worth pursuing and because it's worth pursuing it

:07:14. > :07:19.could provide an answer but until we've gone through it,

:07:20. > :07:21.I won't know whether we're And that's all the

:07:22. > :07:24.police are saying. This investigation was once pursued

:07:25. > :07:27.by up to 30 officers. Now, there are just four on the case

:07:28. > :07:31.and a handful of leads. But while there is still something

:07:32. > :07:35.to investigate, there is still hope. Madeleine's parents have described

:07:36. > :07:38.the ten year anniversary They've released a statement

:07:39. > :07:45.promising never to give up. There have been many challenges

:07:46. > :07:48.and low points along the way, they said, but the warmth,

:07:49. > :07:52.encouragement and positivity we've experienced from the quiet majority

:07:53. > :07:54.has undoubtedly sustained us and maintained our faith

:07:55. > :07:57.in human goodness. This is how Madeleine might have

:07:58. > :08:00.looked as she has grown up. Her 14th birthday is

:08:01. > :08:08.the week after next. A former Health Secretary has said

:08:09. > :08:11.a "criminal cover-up on an industrial scale" took place

:08:12. > :08:14.over the use of NHS contaminated blood products

:08:15. > :08:20.in the 1970s and 1980s. More than 2,000 deaths have been

:08:21. > :08:26.linked to the scandal in which haemophiliacs and others

:08:27. > :08:28.were infected with Hepatitis C Speaking in the Commons last night,

:08:29. > :08:35.Andy Burnham said the victims New research in the United States

:08:36. > :08:45.has found that cases The term is used to describe

:08:46. > :08:49.when a man removes a condom during sex, despite agreeing

:08:50. > :08:51.to wear one. The study by Alexandra Brodsky said

:08:52. > :08:54.it was common practice amongst young But victims' charities have

:08:55. > :08:57.expressed concern and say it must A husband has been charged

:08:58. > :09:04.with killing his wife after police said data from her wearable fitness

:09:05. > :09:06.tracker contradicted Richard Dabate claimed to have

:09:07. > :09:13.seen his wife Connie shot dead by intruders in the US state

:09:14. > :09:15.of Connecticut more than an hour before her Fitbit device

:09:16. > :09:17.recorded her last movements. He will stand trial

:09:18. > :09:22.for murder later this month. United Airlines is investigating

:09:23. > :09:25.the death of a giant rabbit, which was being transported on one

:09:26. > :09:29.of its planes. The 90cm-long bunny called Simon,

:09:30. > :09:31.similar to this one, was found dead in the cargo hold

:09:32. > :09:37.when the flight arrived at Chicago's O'Hare Airport

:09:38. > :09:39.from London Heathrow. United said it was "saddened"

:09:40. > :09:43.by Simon's death. New research has found that

:09:44. > :09:47.copying your boss into emails can make everyone else

:09:48. > :09:50.in the office distrust you. Research undertaken

:09:51. > :09:52.by Cambridge University traffic found that while it could seem

:09:53. > :09:56.like a way to increase transparency, the "cc effect" fed a culture

:09:57. > :09:58.of fear amongst colleagues and many employees saw it

:09:59. > :10:03.as a potentially threatening move. That's a summary of

:10:04. > :10:05.the latest BBC News. Do get in touch with us

:10:06. > :10:19.throughout the morning - Particularly if you're one of those

:10:20. > :10:28.people who ccs the boss in. And we're heading for the end

:10:29. > :10:32.of the Premier League season, Chelsea still out in front,

:10:33. > :10:40.are they stoppable? 4-2 the score. It was while they

:10:41. > :10:45.were going into half-time, but in injury time, the skipper Gary Cahill

:10:46. > :10:52.headed Chelsea ahead to ease a few nerves after they lost to Manchester

:10:53. > :10:57.United ten days ago. A couple of goals from Costa made sure of that

:10:58. > :11:03.victory. He has been in great form. Cahill, the win was a massive step

:11:04. > :11:10.towards the title. His team-mate tweeted, "One step closer. Come on,

:11:11. > :11:15.the Blues." Gary Lineker doesn't think Chelsea are close. He thinks

:11:16. > :11:18.they are already there. Saying, "Huge win for Chelsea in that march

:11:19. > :11:23.towards the title." Here is what their manager had to say last night.

:11:24. > :11:33.You must be ready for this mental effort. Not only physical effort,

:11:34. > :11:39.but also mental effort, but yeah, it is not easy, but we are fighting and

:11:40. > :11:42.we are ready to fight from now until the end.

:11:43. > :11:44.So Tim, Tottenham seven points behind again,

:11:45. > :11:46.they take on Crystal Palace tonight and that won't be

:11:47. > :11:54.It won't at all, Vic. It will be really hard for them. Palace are in

:11:55. > :11:58.the best form of their season. Trying to survive in the Premier

:11:59. > :12:01.League, they've beaten, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool. They won at

:12:02. > :12:04.Anfield at the weekend and two of the games were away from home that

:12:05. > :12:10.they won, including Chelsea as well. Spurs have the likes of Harry Kane

:12:11. > :12:15.and Dele Alli. They will hope the two stars can deliver at Selhurst

:12:16. > :12:19.Park and reduce the deficit with five games remaining.

:12:20. > :12:22.Now Tim, I believe there was a rather proud parent

:12:23. > :12:22.watching our programme yesterday, tell us more.

:12:23. > :12:30.Just a bit, Victoria. This was an unexpected surprise. As much as we

:12:31. > :12:34.love Sir Rod Stewart, this want about Sir Rod, it was about a dad

:12:35. > :12:39.being very proud of his son. After we reported that Liam Stewart scored

:12:40. > :12:40.for Great Britain's ice hockey team yesterday morning, we didn't expect

:12:41. > :12:44.this to surface. PRESENTER: Great Britain's ice

:12:45. > :12:46.hockey players won their second game in their World Championship group

:12:47. > :12:49.beating Estonia 5-1 in Belfast last night when Liam Stewart,

:12:50. > :12:51.the son of music legend Sir Rod Stewart and son of former

:12:52. > :12:54.model Rachel Hunter, Britain join Japan and

:12:55. > :12:57.Lithuania at the top I love it. Can we play it again? Can

:12:58. > :13:16.we play it again, please? PRESENTER: Great Britain's ice

:13:17. > :13:18.hockey players won their second game in their World Championship group

:13:19. > :13:21.beating Estonia 5-1 in Belfast last night when Liam Stewart,

:13:22. > :13:23.the son of music legend Sir Rod Stewart and son of former

:13:24. > :13:25.model Rachel Hunter, Britain join Japan and

:13:26. > :13:28.Lithuania at the top OK, so with a general election

:13:29. > :13:49.in six weeks time you're going to be hearing quite a bit about election

:13:50. > :13:51.issues that matter to you like the NHS, like Brexit,

:13:52. > :13:53.like education, immigration, Yet new research out today

:13:54. > :13:56.suggests that voter apathy Most of us aren't all that

:13:57. > :14:00.engaged in politics, just a third of us are satisfied

:14:01. > :14:03.with the system we have for governing the country

:14:04. > :14:06.and the vast majority think we have So we took two people,

:14:07. > :14:12.who're not really bothered by politics, don't think it

:14:13. > :14:16.represents them, and between them have only voted once,

:14:17. > :14:19.bear in mind one is aged 26 and one is 36,

:14:20. > :14:22.to spend a day in parliament. It's where our 650 elected MPs

:14:23. > :14:38.and our 805 unelected Lords come to debate and eventually legislate

:14:39. > :14:45.how our country is run. So if you could spend a day here

:14:46. > :14:59.and walk in their shoes, could you? My name's Latifa, I'm 26 years old,

:15:00. > :15:02.I'm a graduate and I run My name's Kiara, I'm married, I have

:15:03. > :15:08.to children, a boy and a girl, My name's Kiara, I'm married, I have

:15:09. > :15:12.two children, a boy and a girl, When you look at the building

:15:13. > :15:15.opposite us, what do you think? I feel that politicians make

:15:16. > :15:18.decisions for people they don't Because a lot of the lives

:15:19. > :15:27.people live are nothing They're the ones making

:15:28. > :15:33.all the decisions for all these people and it kind of grinds my

:15:34. > :15:35.gears a bit. I'm sure they work very hard,

:15:36. > :15:38.but I don't think it's probably worth what they earn, because I

:15:39. > :15:41.think if they had to live a year on an average person's wage,

:15:42. > :15:47.I'm not sure they would be able I would like to know more

:15:48. > :15:53.about Parliament, so I can start to vote because I currently don't

:15:54. > :15:56.vote because I don't understand what I'm voting for,

:15:57. > :15:59.so I don't vote. I hope I will have more

:16:00. > :16:03.of an understanding of what MPs do because I do think they are slated

:16:04. > :16:07.a lot in the press, so it would be nice to have my own opinion

:16:08. > :16:14.of what they do and what happens. Their first stop is the Commons

:16:15. > :16:17.chamber with former Work and Pensions Secretary,

:16:18. > :16:23.Conservative MP Iain Duncan Smith. Here you are actually,

:16:24. > :16:31.literally in a bearpit, when it's very noisy and when people

:16:32. > :16:33.are angry and you disagree Sometimes you might see

:16:34. > :16:44.from television pictures people standing up and sitting down

:16:45. > :16:49.and standing up and sitting down. That's because when someone finishes

:16:50. > :16:53.speaking, those who want to speak stand up and the Speaker can see

:16:54. > :16:56.them and he'll decide You really are a very

:16:57. > :17:03.over-excitable individual! You need to write out a thousand

:17:04. > :17:06.times, "I will behave myself It's called the Speaker

:17:07. > :17:12.because his original title, If there's an announcement to be

:17:13. > :17:17.made by the Commons, or in the old days when the monarchy

:17:18. > :17:21.was much stronger and they basically were the government and Parliament

:17:22. > :17:24.was just Parliament, the Speaker was the one who used

:17:25. > :17:27.to have to have the difficult Particularly if the parliament

:17:28. > :17:31.decided they didn't The Speaker was the one who actually

:17:32. > :17:36.had to go and tell them. And if the monarch didn't like it,

:17:37. > :17:39.they normally took it out on the Speaker, so lots of Speakers

:17:40. > :17:41.have lost their heads! This is where the Prime

:17:42. > :17:45.Minister will stand Or I was a Secretary of State

:17:46. > :17:54.until I resigned a year and a bit ago now, and I would have stood

:17:55. > :17:57.here when I was Secretary of State Let me just say to the honourable

:17:58. > :18:01.gentleman, perhaps he would like to keep quiet and listen

:18:02. > :18:04.for once to somebody who knows If it's a full front bench,

:18:05. > :18:16.it will be the Prime Minister sitting here and they will

:18:17. > :18:18.then have next to them and the Home Secretary,

:18:19. > :18:22.some of the more senior members of government will be here and then

:18:23. > :18:25.the bench fills out. And the rest is all backbenchers

:18:26. > :18:27.who support the government. We have a peculiar way

:18:28. > :18:29.of speaking to each other Which is I don't refer to you,

:18:30. > :18:33.I refer to the honourable or right honourable lady,

:18:34. > :18:36.that would be you, or member. And the reason for that is I speak

:18:37. > :18:40.to you in the third person because is very difficult to be

:18:41. > :18:44.personally abusive, although some people can manage it quite well,

:18:45. > :18:47.in the third person. That bench over there is where

:18:48. > :18:52.the official opposition sits, that's where the opposition shadow

:18:53. > :18:54.ministers or the Leader I was Leader of the Opposition

:18:55. > :19:00.once, a long time ago. It's actually the most difficult job

:19:01. > :19:02.ever, because you have none of the support that the government

:19:03. > :19:04.gets from civil servants And the man with the hardest

:19:05. > :19:12.job ever, according is Leader of the Opposition,

:19:13. > :19:17.Labour's Jeremy Corbyn. Do you feel Parliament

:19:18. > :19:21.represents you or do you feel I suppose no, we don't really feel

:19:22. > :19:25.it does represent us because we don't understand

:19:26. > :19:30.how it works. No, that's the thing, you don't

:19:31. > :19:36.learn about politics at school. And I personally think maybe

:19:37. > :19:39.people should be educated Yeah, because it's effecting your

:19:40. > :19:48.life and then you grow up and you're told to vote, but a lot of people

:19:49. > :19:51.don't even really know Can I ask you, so, as the Leader

:19:52. > :19:58.of the Opposition, if you wanted to bring a policy in place

:19:59. > :20:01.and obviously your party is not in power at the moment,

:20:02. > :20:04.so something like the raising of the minimum wage,

:20:05. > :20:07.is it something you can take to the Houses of Parliament and say,

:20:08. > :20:10.I want to enforce this, Or is that something that can't

:20:11. > :20:16.happen, unless you are in power? We would try to introduce it

:20:17. > :20:19.through amendments to the budget or amendments to minimum

:20:20. > :20:21.wage legislation so we The chances of winning in Parliament

:20:22. > :20:26.are obviously reduced when there's a Conservative

:20:27. > :20:41.majority, but we would use every When I left me I was basically told

:20:42. > :20:43.that if I'm not pregnant or Eamonn or eight drug addict or basically

:20:44. > :20:49.there's something wrong with me, they can't help me with housing. I

:20:50. > :20:55.can see why the council would tell you that. They have huge pressure on

:20:56. > :21:03.them. They have to deliver priorities and say, the priority is

:21:04. > :21:10.this. But it's wrong. We've really got to move the debate on. Are you

:21:11. > :21:14.enjoying your visit? Yeah, I am, but, literally, I'm oblivious to...

:21:15. > :21:21.Politics, and stuff, so that's why I don't have as much questions as

:21:22. > :21:25.Kiara. Politics affects lives. You had a housing issue, you're quite

:21:26. > :21:28.right, that a political decision. A medical decision to build council

:21:29. > :21:35.housing or not, political decision to regulate and rents or not, that's

:21:36. > :21:39.politics. Politics matters. Yeah, it does. More people need to be

:21:40. > :21:43.educated on it. I agree. I think we will agree on that. We agree on lots

:21:44. > :21:47.of things, I'm sure but on that, I absolutely get that. Educate young

:21:48. > :21:53.people. The kids are the next generation. Just as we were

:21:54. > :21:54.finishing with Jeremy Corbyn, a storm had started to brew of

:21:55. > :22:00.Westminster. We are live in Downing Street

:22:01. > :22:03.where the Prime Minister is due to make a significant announcement

:22:04. > :22:05.in the next 15 minutes. One unconfirmed source tells

:22:06. > :22:13.the BBC, Theresa May is poised to announce a snap general election

:22:14. > :22:15.on June 8th. I have just chaired a meeting

:22:16. > :22:18.of the Cabinet, where we agreed that the government should call

:22:19. > :22:20.a general election to be At this moment of enormous

:22:21. > :22:25.national significance, there should be unity

:22:26. > :22:27.here in Westminster The shock announcement

:22:28. > :22:34.was made just an hour ago. Britain will go to the

:22:35. > :22:38.polls in seven weeks. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

:22:39. > :22:40.has welcomed the move, saying it gives the British people

:22:41. > :22:43.the chance to vote for a government that will put the interests

:22:44. > :22:47.of the majority first. My name's Clive, Clive Lewis,

:22:48. > :22:52.I'm the Labour MP for Norwich South. I mean, it is history in the making,

:22:53. > :23:02.you are here from history with me as the general election,

:23:03. > :23:07.this is live breaking news. This is a big story because now,

:23:08. > :23:10.Parliament will be dissolved at some point and the general election

:23:11. > :23:14.will begin to take place. I hope you both voted and if you're

:23:15. > :23:17.not, you're going to be, because this is going to determine

:23:18. > :23:20.your lives, your futures, that of your children,

:23:21. > :23:26.your family and your community. It;s a very, very big vote

:23:27. > :23:30.and I think one of the reasons it is probably happening is,

:23:31. > :23:32.as you said, Brexit. I think also many MPs,

:23:33. > :23:35.myself included, I think we are keen to have a new mandate

:23:36. > :23:37.from our constituents because so much has happened

:23:38. > :23:39.since the last election, since the referendum was voted for,

:23:40. > :23:43.voted on, and the result. And taking us out of the EU,

:23:44. > :23:46.possibly not getting a trade deal, all of the things that come

:23:47. > :23:53.with that, these are massive constitutional changes in a way,

:23:54. > :23:58.constitutional level changes. A lot of people find it difficult

:23:59. > :24:03.to decide who to vote for and you said Theresa May said

:24:04. > :24:06.she wasn't going to raise the Isn't that, like, can't people

:24:07. > :24:10.question her integrity because she said she wasn't

:24:11. > :24:12.going to do something I think some people, yeah,

:24:13. > :24:16.some people will question Theresa May's integrity,

:24:17. > :24:18.because she said she wouldn't call a general election but I haven't

:24:19. > :24:21.seen the statement she has made, but I imagine she is saying that

:24:22. > :24:24.so much has happened I say to the members opposite,

:24:25. > :24:30.if they do not respect the democratic will of the Scottish

:24:31. > :24:33.people to remain in the EU, it will be the beginning of the end

:24:34. > :24:38.of this disunited kingdom. Hannah Bardell is one

:24:39. > :24:41.of Westminster's newest MPs. She joined the Commons in 2015

:24:42. > :24:44.along with 55 others They are meeting in Portcullis

:24:45. > :24:52.House, a modern annexe So becoming a new MP,

:24:53. > :24:58.how was it like when you first came in, on your first day

:24:59. > :25:00.and stuff like that? It was quite intimidating,

:25:01. > :25:03.quite emotional. What's it like, the first time

:25:04. > :25:07.you sit in the House of Commons? I think everybody says,

:25:08. > :25:10.when they go in, it's a lot And I can remember the first

:25:11. > :25:19.Prime Minister's Questions I sat in on, you don't feel that

:25:20. > :25:22.on television, you don't hear the noise, but the unbelievable

:25:23. > :25:24.wall of noise that comes at you from the opposition benches,

:25:25. > :25:27.just the volume was so huge. This place is designed

:25:28. > :25:30.to intimidate you and I think a lot of us just felt,

:25:31. > :25:33.no, we're not going to be intimidated, we're here to do a job,

:25:34. > :25:36.we're going to get on with it I mean, obviously, you want

:25:37. > :25:40.to separate your country from ours, so do you have different issues,

:25:41. > :25:44.when you come into Westminster? My party believes in independence

:25:45. > :25:47.for Scotland, we believe that decisions about Scotland

:25:48. > :25:49.and Scottish people are best made So if the SNP are trying

:25:50. > :25:56.to become independent, is it essentially having your own

:25:57. > :25:59.Prime Minister as well? We have a First Minister

:26:00. > :26:02.at the moment but yes, essentially. So, would you still have

:26:03. > :26:06.seats in Westminster? So I'm working to put

:26:07. > :26:12.myself out of the job! Right at the heart of this place

:26:13. > :26:16.is the debate in the Commons. It's where MPs get to hold

:26:17. > :26:22.ministers to account. But today, debate is dominated

:26:23. > :26:25.by the election and Leader of the Commons David Livingstone

:26:26. > :26:27.takes the helm. On Wednesday the 19th of April,

:26:28. > :26:32.the House will be asked to approve a motion that allows my right

:26:33. > :26:34.honourable friend the Prime Minister to seek an early parliamentary

:26:35. > :26:37.general election under the Fixed Mr Speaker, I'm also concerned

:26:38. > :26:45.the Prime Minister chose to make her statement outside number

:26:46. > :26:49.ten rather than come to the House. The leader of the house has given us

:26:50. > :26:52.an image of the Prime Minister being dragged kicking and screaming

:26:53. > :26:54.into calling a general election Mr Speaker, this is quite one

:26:55. > :27:02.of the most extraordinary U-turns It is absolutely right

:27:03. > :27:05.that the statement was first made to the British people,

:27:06. > :27:08.not to this House, because it is they who are being asked

:27:09. > :27:21.to use their sovereign A lot of people were talking about

:27:22. > :27:30.the general election, did you follow that? A little bit, we figured out

:27:31. > :27:37.it was on the 8th of June. Midnight on the 2nd of May, one minute past

:27:38. > :27:41.on the 2nd of May, into the 3rd of May... That's when parliament will

:27:42. > :27:46.be dissolved. I wasn't too sure why this speaker speaks in that weird

:27:47. > :27:48.voice. Yeah. When he calls up people's names. It made it hard to

:27:49. > :27:54.understand what he was saying. Sometimes it was really deep

:27:55. > :28:00.and I was like, why? It just looks like a lot

:28:01. > :28:03.of infighting in amongst the people that are supposed to be

:28:04. > :28:06.running our country. The Select Committee is a place

:28:07. > :28:09.where MPs and Lords examine the work of government departments,

:28:10. > :28:11.take evidence and write reports. Today they are talking fashion

:28:12. > :28:14.and how Brexit will effect this Are you confident that

:28:15. > :28:21.London's in a robust place? Conservative MP Damian Collins

:28:22. > :28:24.is the chair and Caroline Rush from the British Fashion Council

:28:25. > :28:26.is one of three experts We are seen as the global capital

:28:27. > :28:34.of Europe if you like and it's very important for us as a country

:28:35. > :28:37.and an industry that we Our job is to hold the government

:28:38. > :28:41.to account but holding a particular So in our case, the Department

:28:42. > :28:50.for Culture, Media and Sport. We can run enquiries or hold

:28:51. > :28:52.hearings on any issue that is related to the work

:28:53. > :28:56.of that government department. What we try and do is look

:28:57. > :28:59.at the issues and decide as the group what we think

:29:00. > :29:01.is the right thing to do. We then produce reports,

:29:02. > :29:03.which get sent to the government and the government has to respond

:29:04. > :29:06.to the reports. So the three people who were sitting

:29:07. > :29:08.opposite you today, So they are witnesses who were

:29:09. > :29:16.called to give evidence to us. Today's hearing was an enquiry

:29:17. > :29:18.on the impact of Brexit We have had sessions talking

:29:19. > :29:25.to the film industry, people in television,

:29:26. > :29:27.and today on that panel we were talking to people

:29:28. > :29:33.from the fashion industry. It's quite reassuring to know that

:29:34. > :29:38.you actually use outside evidence, not just kind of assuming how

:29:39. > :29:40.it is and making That's right and it's

:29:41. > :29:43.really important. Now I understand that if they need

:29:44. > :29:46.to gather more information, they are talking to people

:29:47. > :29:48.who are directly being affected by these things, people

:29:49. > :29:50.who are in the fashion industry and getting a greater understanding

:29:51. > :29:53.of exactly what the issues are and how they

:29:54. > :29:54.consult those issues. Which I assume they then

:29:55. > :29:57.take that information to go into the House of Commons

:29:58. > :29:59.and argue there or to bring in legislation or bills

:30:00. > :30:06.and how to change things. How did the reality of today differ

:30:07. > :30:09.from your expectations? It was better than I

:30:10. > :30:16.thought it would be. It was much more eye-opening

:30:17. > :30:18.than I thought it would be, It was massively different

:30:19. > :30:29.than I expected it to be, I have come away now feeling

:30:30. > :30:34.I've got a good grasp of how politics works,

:30:35. > :30:36.But it is complex. You both found everything today very

:30:37. > :30:41.easy and comfortable and understandable except

:30:42. > :30:43.the Commons, that's the bit you both still really

:30:44. > :30:45.struggled with, that debate. It's just really hard to follow,

:30:46. > :30:49.all the language and the traditions It didn't really make much sense

:30:50. > :30:54.so it was hard to understand Even though we've been

:30:55. > :30:57.here for a whole day, you can't really understand it

:30:58. > :31:01.in a whole day, you still need more. You said that by the end of the day

:31:02. > :31:04.you wanted to know who to vote You didn't know that an election

:31:05. > :31:12.would be called today! But you said you wanted to know

:31:13. > :31:16.by the end of the day who you would Do you now know who

:31:17. > :31:19.you would vote for? Yes, I do know who I would vote

:31:20. > :31:22.for and I can say that being here today, I now can say that

:31:23. > :31:33.I will confidently vote I have a greater understanding of a

:31:34. > :31:37.machine app's job entails. It doesn't sound much fun. I don't

:31:38. > :31:41.think they get much thanks for it. They must have to be passionate

:31:42. > :31:45.about what they're doing in order to want to do that as a job. Also I've

:31:46. > :31:48.learnt as well, it is a two-way street. It is not just about the

:31:49. > :31:53.politician and what happens in Parliament. It's what the public and

:31:54. > :32:00.the people do on their part as well. If we don't challenge them, they

:32:01. > :32:02.can't make changes on our behalf. So you feel empowered basically? I

:32:03. > :32:23.do, yes. Christine on Facebook says, "Please

:32:24. > :32:28.use your vote." Helen says, "Well done, hopefully more will see this

:32:29. > :32:32.film and become actively engaged in who makes the decisions affecting

:32:33. > :32:35.them." Jane says, "Please use your vote. So many countries around the

:32:36. > :32:42.world don't have this luxury. This is the only way we can put forward

:32:43. > :32:46.our views and change things. Last year proved that when many went to

:32:47. > :32:51.vote in the referendum who had never voted before." Linda on Facebook,

:32:52. > :32:55."I'm playing that many people who haven't voted before, will do so at

:32:56. > :32:59.this election. Their votes could change things for our country. You

:33:00. > :33:03.have got six weeks to find out which party has the policies to make our

:33:04. > :33:10.country better." Pete says, "Vote for who? Give us someone that's

:33:11. > :33:17.worthy. Corbyn is an idiot. The Tories are too elitist. Ukip with

:33:18. > :33:20.Nuttall is taking it the wrong way. I have to vote Conservative because

:33:21. > :33:23.the rest will try to crush democracy."

:33:24. > :33:28.Your views are very welcome. We'll be talking live

:33:29. > :33:30.to Latifah Atkinson and Kiara Stone If you want to watch that film

:33:31. > :33:34.again you can find it The next six weeks on this programme

:33:35. > :33:39.during the general election are - actually like every other week

:33:40. > :33:42.of the year - but even more so during the general

:33:43. > :33:43.election campaign - all about you and the things that

:33:44. > :33:46.matter to you as you go If you have stories or issues that

:33:47. > :33:52.you feel aren't being reported, if you want to take part in TV

:33:53. > :33:55.discussions and have the chance to talk directly to politicians

:33:56. > :33:57.about their policies or maybe you think you might not vote

:33:58. > :34:07.because politicians "are all you think you might not vote

:34:08. > :34:10.because politicians "they are all Let me know and we'll

:34:11. > :34:14.see what we can do. E-mail Victoria@bbc.co.uk

:34:15. > :34:16.with your contact details and ideas for stories and the things

:34:17. > :34:25.you want us to cover. Teachers say it is not just pupils

:34:26. > :34:28.they are getting abuse from, but parents too. For some, it means they

:34:29. > :34:31.are walking away from the profession.

:34:32. > :34:35.And the scandal of tainted blood that caused the deaths

:34:36. > :34:43.We've reported on this before, now there's a call

:34:44. > :34:52.Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:34:53. > :34:59.Labour has promised to increase pay for NHS staff and scrap tuition fees

:35:00. > :35:01.for student nurses if it wins the general election.

:35:02. > :35:05.The party says it will abolish the current cap for staff in England

:35:06. > :35:09.Labour said the policies would help address staffing shortages

:35:10. > :35:14.in England that had become a "threat to patients".

:35:15. > :35:16.Surrey Police have been strongly criticised for returning

:35:17. > :35:19.a collection of shotguns to a man who went on to kill his

:35:20. > :35:23.Christine and Lucy Lee were shot by 82-year-old John Lowe in 2014.

:35:24. > :35:25.A report by the Independent Police Complaints Commission has

:35:26. > :35:27.highlighted serious failings by the force and said the way

:35:28. > :35:29.firearms are licensed across the country needs

:35:30. > :35:38.Detectives investigating the disappearance of

:35:39. > :35:41.Madeleine McCann say they are still pursuing

:35:42. > :35:44.what they describe as "critical leads" in the case.

:35:45. > :35:46.Next week will mark ten years since the three-year-old

:35:47. > :35:49.disappeared while on holiday with her parents in Portugal.

:35:50. > :35:51.Officers have confirmed that four people considered as possible

:35:52. > :35:58.suspects in 2013 have been ruled out.

:35:59. > :36:02.A former Health Secretary has said a "criminal cover-up

:36:03. > :36:04.on an industrial scale" took place over the use of NHS

:36:05. > :36:07.contaminated blood products in the 1970s and 1980s.

:36:08. > :36:09.More than 2,000 deaths have been linked to the scandal

:36:10. > :36:12.in which haemophiliacs and others were infected with Hepatitis C

:36:13. > :36:17.Speaking in the Commons last night, Andy Burnham said the victims

:36:18. > :36:26.New research in the United States has found that cases

:36:27. > :36:30.The term is used to describe when a man removes a condom

:36:31. > :36:32.during sex, despite agreeing to wear one.

:36:33. > :36:35.The study by Alexandra Brodsky said it was common practice amongst young

:36:36. > :36:41.But victims' charities have expressed concern and say it

:36:42. > :36:50.A husband has been charged with killing his wife after police

:36:51. > :36:53.said data from her wearable fitness tracker contradicted

:36:54. > :36:58.Richard Dabate claimed to have seen his wife Connie shot dead

:36:59. > :37:00.by intruders in the US state of Connecticut more than an hour

:37:01. > :37:02.before her Fitbit device recorded her last movements.

:37:03. > :37:11.Dabate is currently on bail pending a trial.

:37:12. > :37:15.That's a summary of the latest BBC News, more at 10.00am.

:37:16. > :37:28.Thank you very much. A tweet from Good on your last film.

:37:29. > :37:33.Good says, "Voters need to know how voting affects the country. Not the

:37:34. > :37:37.workings of the Commons where oldies shout at each other." We will talk

:37:38. > :37:40.to some youngies after 10am. Chelsea beat Southampton to move

:37:41. > :37:45.seven-points clear at the top Diego Costa scored twice in a 4-2

:37:46. > :37:53.victory and captain Gary Cahill says But second places Spurs are aiming

:37:54. > :37:58.to close the gap tonight. They're away to a Crystal Palace

:37:59. > :38:04.who've already beaten Arsenal, Maria Sharapova is back playing

:38:05. > :38:10.tennis today after her 15 month The former Wimbledon champion

:38:11. > :38:14.is a controversial wild card Ronnie O'Sullivan spent a lot

:38:15. > :38:22.of time sitting down during his world snooker

:38:23. > :38:25.quarter-final against Ding Junhui, who took a 10-6 lead,

:38:26. > :38:27.but The Rocket did come back with a century break in the last

:38:28. > :38:30.frame of the session. They resume at 2.30pm,

:38:31. > :38:32.and it'll be live on BBC Two. We know that some teachers have

:38:33. > :38:39.to deal with abusive, or even at times violent, pupils,

:38:40. > :38:41.but new research suggests that three in ten teachers have

:38:42. > :38:44.experienced abuse at the hands That's according to a survey

:38:45. > :38:51.of nearly 10,000 teachers led by Bath Spa University,

:38:52. > :38:54.which found a quarter of primary teachers and a fifth of secondary

:38:55. > :38:56.teachers experience some kind Abuse ranged from online

:38:57. > :38:59.messages to confrontation We can speak to three teachers

:39:00. > :39:05.who have experienced Charlotte, not her real name,

:39:06. > :39:09.is a reception teacher That's teaching the youngest

:39:10. > :39:14.class in primary school. She was forced to take

:39:15. > :39:16.four months off work after experiencing harassment

:39:17. > :39:18.from a parent. She's asked to remain anonymous

:39:19. > :39:21.because she's worried about possible She's asked us to change her

:39:22. > :39:28.name, also because of Ian Fenn is a headteacher

:39:29. > :39:32.at Burnage Academy Also with us is Dr Jermaine

:39:33. > :39:37.Ravalier, senior Lecturer in psychology at Bath Spa University,

:39:38. > :39:47.who conducted the research. Welcome all of you. Charlotte. Let

:39:48. > :39:51.me begin with you. You experienced in your very first teaching job

:39:52. > :39:57.serial harassment and abuse from one parent. Give our audience an insight

:39:58. > :40:02.into what was going on? Well, it started off just like little things

:40:03. > :40:08.like every few days there would be something that was the matter with

:40:09. > :40:12.something that was going on at school, her child was experiencing

:40:13. > :40:17.and things like that and it built up over the months to daily, every

:40:18. > :40:21.morning, it would be first thing that I'd hear when I'd open up the

:40:22. > :40:24.school gates. There would be a huge big problem and it would amount from

:40:25. > :40:31.the smallest of things that maybe, it was a passing comment maybe to

:40:32. > :40:36.her child as a joke. You tend to do that with four-year-olds and it

:40:37. > :40:40.would cause a big catastrophe that would take me between 15 minutes to

:40:41. > :40:44.the first 45 minutes just to sort it out. So far, not necessarily

:40:45. > :40:49.harassment though. Not so far. Inconvenient. Yeah, it does start to

:40:50. > :40:54.affect like the children and the working day when that's the first 45

:40:55. > :41:00.minutes of your working day that's been taken up and then it led to

:41:01. > :41:07.comments on social media being made. Like what? Like Facebook statuses

:41:08. > :41:10.about potential things that the school had done that she didn't

:41:11. > :41:15.agree with, but instead of coming to the school, it was just plastered

:41:16. > :41:18.all over Facebook. And that was brought to our attention by numerous

:41:19. > :41:24.other parents who had taken a picture of it and sent it in. Was it

:41:25. > :41:31.abusive or not? It was. It was directed at maybe like comments I'd

:41:32. > :41:34.made which, were not negative or anything particularly... You felt

:41:35. > :41:40.like you were being continually picked on? Yes, it was just chipping

:41:41. > :41:43.away and then it got to a point where I would be having just a

:41:44. > :41:48.conversation with another parent at the end of the day and this

:41:49. > :41:52.particular parent would stand behind me and would loudly comment that she

:41:53. > :41:59.was waiting for me to talk to me about something very serious indeed.

:42:00. > :42:06.Then it got to a point where she followed another member of staff out

:42:07. > :42:09.of the school and directly asked her questions about the classroom and

:42:10. > :42:13.the environment and me as a teacher and the support staff. So taken in

:42:14. > :42:17.isolation, none of that is the end of the world, but the effect had an

:42:18. > :42:22.impact on you, professionally and personally. Quickly describe that?

:42:23. > :42:26.So, it chipped away at me for four months. At the start of my career,

:42:27. > :42:30.I've put everything I can into this career and you get to a point where

:42:31. > :42:33.actually at the end of that first-term, you feel that there was

:42:34. > :42:40.nothing that you could do and nothing I could say that was ever

:42:41. > :42:43.good enough for this parent and it affected my health hugely. It

:42:44. > :42:48.started off with just general worrying about kind of doing the

:42:49. > :42:51.best and it turned quickly into anxiety, and the stress. There is a

:42:52. > :42:56.lot of pressures in the profession anyway on top of having a parent

:42:57. > :43:00.that you know starts off making comments and then kind of, puts it

:43:01. > :43:03.all on social media and you worry about other parents and what they

:43:04. > :43:10.would say and other staff members might say and think. Thank you,

:43:11. > :43:16.Charlotte. Let me bring in Ian Fenn. You say both verbal and physical

:43:17. > :43:20.abuse is a fact of life on an almost weekly basis. Tell us the worst

:43:21. > :43:28.incident you've come across as a head? Well, I mean, I think in many

:43:29. > :43:34.schools you will have situations where a parent will come on the

:43:35. > :43:40.premises. They will pose a risk to students because they're seeking

:43:41. > :43:44.some sort of confrontation with a child who might have had an argument

:43:45. > :43:52.with their child. This happened to me quite recently. I brought that

:43:53. > :43:58.person to the front of the school. I attended and this gentleman, who

:43:59. > :44:04.just come out of prison, was extremely threatening and abusive.

:44:05. > :44:08.Fortunately, I had staff with me. We're trained to deescalate these

:44:09. > :44:12.situations and before the police came, clearly the gentleman, you

:44:13. > :44:19.know, was gauging how long he could be abusive for. He disappeared. How

:44:20. > :44:22.long have you been in teaching? Well, I have been teaching since

:44:23. > :44:26.1978 and I have been the head of this school for 17 years. Do you

:44:27. > :44:31.think this behaviour from parents is getting worse and if you do, why?

:44:32. > :44:41.Oh, it is certainly getting worse. It tends to go in cycles and in my

:44:42. > :44:45.experience here, it is linked to the state of society. In 2001 when I

:44:46. > :44:49.first came here, until Manchester there was significant gang problems,

:44:50. > :44:53.the streets weren't as safe as they later became and that was reflected

:44:54. > :44:57.in relationships with parents and other relatives. Not just parents.

:44:58. > :45:05.It can be cousins, brothers, you know, a range of people. And it

:45:06. > :45:09.improved as society became more cohesive. The gangs were broken up

:45:10. > :45:16.and employment was better. Then after the crash and the cuts in the

:45:17. > :45:21.public services, there has been to me, a connected cause of between the

:45:22. > :45:28.kind of confrontation and abuse that we get from a small minority, but

:45:29. > :45:33.nevertheless frequent situation with parents and that relates with the

:45:34. > :45:35.way in which Manchester generally seems to be less safe and less

:45:36. > :45:43.cohesive and with more problems. That's an interesting take on I

:45:44. > :45:46.suspect Greater Manchester Police must challenge you on that. They are

:45:47. > :45:55.not he and I cannot speak for them. That is your view. I will ask you,

:45:56. > :46:01.Jermaine about your research and his view, the headteacher, but it might

:46:02. > :46:07.somehow be linked to cuts in public services. Job security, that sort of

:46:08. > :46:13.thing, that's his view. I think it's hard for me from the research I've

:46:14. > :46:16.done, to contribute it to the cuts in the public services and that kind

:46:17. > :46:21.of thing, that is not what we looked at. We looked at other causes of

:46:22. > :46:28.stress amongst teachers, why does this happen? The headteacher may be

:46:29. > :46:31.right, it could be down to austerity and that kind of thing but that's

:46:32. > :46:36.not something we looked at, it is not something I can comment on. It

:46:37. > :46:40.is a wide scale problem. It is. We found about one third of teachers

:46:41. > :46:44.are exposed to these negative behaviours either online or school

:46:45. > :46:49.premises. What parents playing at? It is not all parents, it is a

:46:50. > :46:53.minority. It is not all parents, of course, but the ones who are doing

:46:54. > :46:59.it... Of course. It is unacceptable. As we would all agree. Nora, what's

:47:00. > :47:02.your view, you are in a supply teacher you experience different

:47:03. > :47:06.kind of schools, why is this more of a problem, why is this problem with

:47:07. > :47:12.parents growing when it comes to confrontation and abuse to teachers?

:47:13. > :47:16.I think it's more so in primary than in secondary, I've taught in both.

:47:17. > :47:21.With primary, there is more access to the morning and afternoon. I

:47:22. > :47:24.think it's because there's no real policies of making appointments with

:47:25. > :47:30.the class teacher that is in force. It is like a free for all a lot of

:47:31. > :47:36.the time. I've had physical... Someone physically push me aside. He

:47:37. > :47:40.was quite a big guy. So he could get into the classroom to get a

:47:41. > :47:44.worksheet. In most schools, the policy is that a parent cannot go

:47:45. > :47:47.unaccompanied into the classroom back into the school. Physically,

:47:48. > :47:53.someone witnessed it, there was nothing I could do. I was left

:47:54. > :47:58.humiliated in front of the whole of the playground. You've got all the

:47:59. > :48:03.parents, all the children, so one. In some places, it can be very

:48:04. > :48:06.worrying -- so on. I was teaching and I would get towards the end of

:48:07. > :48:09.the day and I would start worrying about the end of the day because

:48:10. > :48:13.then I would go out. That could be an anxious time, going out to meet

:48:14. > :48:15.the parents and a lot of the time you don't know what you are meeting,

:48:16. > :48:20.what will happen, what they will come out with. You are completely

:48:21. > :48:24.unprepared. It is that expectation that is anxious. At the end of the

:48:25. > :48:28.day I would wait ten minutes and then I would go to the toilet, where

:48:29. > :48:34.there were senior management. I would sit down and almost shake for

:48:35. > :48:36.5-10 minutes, hoping all the parents had left the whole building said

:48:37. > :48:41.they aren't looking for you. Some people will be watching saying,

:48:42. > :48:45.brutal as it sounds, you might not be tough enough to be teachers. What

:48:46. > :48:49.would you say to that? There are times when something can be put in

:48:50. > :48:53.place and should be followed. These are the parents who know the rules,

:48:54. > :48:56.they don't follow them. They might be required to make an appointment

:48:57. > :49:00.and you know what it's about, you and they can come prepared, there

:49:01. > :49:05.can be another person there, a headteacher or another member of

:49:06. > :49:09.teaching staff and you can have... Civilised. What would you say,

:49:10. > :49:15.Charlotte? I would probably add on, from my point of view, teachers are

:49:16. > :49:21.human beings too. Most teachers, anyone who works with people, always

:49:22. > :49:25.going to be very empathetic people. You do care, especially, for me, I

:49:26. > :49:30.work with four and five-year-old children, I am a caring person and I

:49:31. > :49:33.take my job extremely seriously. At the end of the day, like Laura said,

:49:34. > :49:39.there is a lot of access to teachers. I don't think it's OK. I

:49:40. > :49:44.had an incident where a parent came into my classroom and pointed at

:49:45. > :49:47.another child, who at this point, is four years old and declares, this

:49:48. > :49:53.child is bullying her four-year-olds. That was completely

:49:54. > :49:58.inappropriate. If that is dealt with in another matter, that would have

:49:59. > :50:00.been better. OK. Thank you very much, thank you for coming on the

:50:01. > :50:05.programme. Have a good day. Surrey Police have been strongly

:50:06. > :50:07.criticised for returning a collection of shotguns to a man

:50:08. > :50:10.who went on to kill his Christine and Lucy Lee were shot

:50:11. > :50:16.by 82-year-old John Lowe in 2014. A report by the Independent Police

:50:17. > :50:18.Complaints Commission has highlighted serious failings

:50:19. > :50:20.by the force and made recommendations to improve firearms

:50:21. > :50:28.licensing across the country. Surrey says one officer has been

:50:29. > :50:33.sacked, and another has retired. Lucy made this 999 call just moments

:50:34. > :50:38.before she was killed and just a warning, you may find

:50:39. > :50:47.the audio distressing. If you don't want children to hear,

:50:48. > :50:49.now is the time to turn the volume down. This call lasts for about just

:50:50. > :51:15.under 20 seconds. Earlier I spoke to Detective Chief

:51:16. > :51:23.Constable Gavin Stevens from Surrey Police. He told us about his regret

:51:24. > :51:26.in not stopping John Lowe. One police staff member was dismissed

:51:27. > :51:31.following a gross misconduct hearing. Another police staff member

:51:32. > :51:35.retired before the investigation and report concluded. Mike at the

:51:36. > :51:40.beginning of this, I to say that this is clearly a very tragic case

:51:41. > :51:44.and our thoughts remain with the family and friends of Christine and

:51:45. > :51:51.Lucy Lee. You sacked one staff member, were they a police officer?

:51:52. > :51:55.No, the individuals involved in the decision in this case were police

:51:56. > :51:57.staff members. The Independent Police Complaints Commission of

:51:58. > :52:03.course would look at everybody involved in this case, without fear

:52:04. > :52:06.or favour. And reach their findings independently. Two to staff members

:52:07. > :52:10.were criticised by the Independent report. You sacked one of them, one

:52:11. > :52:16.was allowed to retire, have you been able to call back their pension at

:52:17. > :52:21.all? That is not clearly a decision for the force and normal employment

:52:22. > :52:26.rules apply. With any other profession. Members. Do you accept

:52:27. > :52:32.they managed to escape sanction by retiring? No. That's a matter for

:52:33. > :52:34.legislators, for Parliament to decide, those rules. But what

:52:35. > :52:41.-- what is your opinion? Did this staff member escape punishment

:52:42. > :52:44.effectively by retiring? In policing, become to work each day to

:52:45. > :52:50.save life and protect them from rubble. In this case, we clearly

:52:51. > :52:57.failed in that duty. -- protect the vulnerable. That causes deep regret

:52:58. > :53:01.to what has happened here. In March 2013, following concerns raise to

:53:02. > :53:04.us, we seized these shotguns and there was a three-month

:53:05. > :53:08.investigation, the end of which a decision was taken to return them.

:53:09. > :53:12.It was clearly the wrong decision. There wasn't a thorough risk

:53:13. > :53:15.assessments done. The information gathered from medical practitioners

:53:16. > :53:19.and systems was thoroughly assessed and a wrong decision was taken at

:53:20. > :53:23.seven months later it lets do this completely horrific double murder.

:53:24. > :53:26.For which John Lowe is now serving life sentences and will no doubt die

:53:27. > :53:31.in prison. A risk assessment was not carried out before John Lowe had his

:53:32. > :53:37.firearms returned to him. Are you saying you have now added that or

:53:38. > :53:41.was that in place but ignored? Assessments were carried out. They

:53:42. > :53:44.weren't a thorough enough and they led to the wrong conclusion. The

:53:45. > :53:47.national guidelines that were in place at the time, the Home Office

:53:48. > :53:52.guidelines from 2002, were not properly adhered to. Stacey Banna

:53:53. > :53:56.warned that the firearms should not be returned because John Lowe it is

:53:57. > :54:02.dangerous. She reported concerns to us. We seized those firearms that

:54:03. > :54:06.same day. There was a three-month investigation at the conclusion of

:54:07. > :54:13.which a wrong decision was taken. It is clear and it is described in the

:54:14. > :54:17.significant detail in the report. We can't change that. We can't turn

:54:18. > :54:21.back the clock as much as we would like to. As I say, we come to work

:54:22. > :54:25.to save life and protect the vulnerable. We failed

:54:26. > :54:28.catastrophically in this occasion. It is important that we responsibly

:54:29. > :54:33.to that and I have described how we did that. It is important that a

:54:34. > :54:37.number of years on, as we are, now, with the IP CC report finally

:54:38. > :54:40.published, that we look again and re-examine our procedures and talk

:54:41. > :54:46.to colleagues nationally about practices and procedures in all

:54:47. > :54:49.firearms units to make sure that the lessons of this case, which is very

:54:50. > :54:53.rare and extremely tragic our land for everybody when these tough

:54:54. > :54:58.decisions are made. It might be several years on for you but I am

:54:59. > :55:01.sure it is not for the that many of Christine and Lucy Lees. Do you

:55:02. > :55:05.think your apology to the family and the fact that you have put in place

:55:06. > :55:10.better training is going to be any consolation to them?

:55:11. > :55:17.The tragedy of this case affects them every day. They have to live

:55:18. > :55:21.with what has happened. I don't think there's anything that I could

:55:22. > :55:25.really say to them that will change their circumstances. But, of course,

:55:26. > :55:29.we have a wider duty in all of the cases that we deal with, to make

:55:30. > :55:33.sure that we respond to things. It is not just additional training. For

:55:34. > :55:38.example, we reviewed all of the decisions we made on firearms

:55:39. > :55:41.returned to the previous three years to this case. We've changed the

:55:42. > :55:46.levels of decision-making and authority. There is now a national

:55:47. > :55:52.practice that followed in 2014 and additional inspections have been

:55:53. > :55:55.done. I've talked in detail to our police and crime commission and

:55:56. > :56:00.there will be additional scrutiny on this particular area of policing.

:56:01. > :56:02.Which can have very tragic consequences when incorrect

:56:03. > :56:05.decisions are taken. Can you guarantee that Surrey Police won't

:56:06. > :56:10.give guns back to people who have said they will use them? We can

:56:11. > :56:15.guarantee that every decision we face like this in future we will err

:56:16. > :56:21.on the side of caution and do proper assessments. Sorry, which would

:56:22. > :56:24.suggest, to be absolutely clear, which would suggest you are not

:56:25. > :56:29.going to give guns back to people who said they will use them, is that

:56:30. > :56:32.what you are saying? Absolutely. At the end of that investigation that

:56:33. > :56:35.we conduct into these matters, in this case it is clear that it should

:56:36. > :56:41.not have been returned. We should not do that in future. These are

:56:42. > :56:45.decisions made by human beings that were assessing often complex and

:56:46. > :56:50.sometimes conflicting information. But at the end of that, we should

:56:51. > :56:54.err on the side of caution. On the ballots are probably too, if we

:56:55. > :56:57.think we should not return them, we should not return them. Particularly

:56:58. > :57:03.if someone says they are going to use them. Of course. So why did it

:57:04. > :57:10.happen in this case? Because a wrong decision was made. The details, as I

:57:11. > :57:13.have described, very thoroughly, the Independent Police Complaints

:57:14. > :57:15.Commission report. The information was incorrectly assessed, there will

:57:16. > :57:20.not enough enquirer is done in order to reach the right decision. If, for

:57:21. > :57:25.a moment, those involved in this decision thought that two people

:57:26. > :57:28.would lose their lives over this, clearly, they would not have done

:57:29. > :57:35.it. Of course. Of course. My goodness. We can't foresee, seven

:57:36. > :57:39.months into the future, when we make these decisions. You can't, no one

:57:40. > :57:44.is expecting you to read the future. Absolutely. But what can absolutely

:57:45. > :57:47.be expected is that risk assessments that are done are thorough and take

:57:48. > :57:52.into consideration all available information. And they are checked

:57:53. > :57:58.and double checked. That didn't happen in this case. That is a

:57:59. > :58:01.matter of deep, deep regret. And, of course, has led to significant pain

:58:02. > :58:05.and suffering and loss for many people.

:58:06. > :58:11.If you are watching on BBC Two, coverage of the snooker.

:58:12. > :58:13.To continue watching our programme turn over

:58:14. > :58:15.to the BBC News Channel - where coming up in

:58:16. > :58:20.How do you get people caring about politics?

:58:21. > :58:26.We took two women who have very little interest in politics to spend

:58:27. > :58:30.a day in Parliament. They tell us how they got on.

:58:31. > :58:33.As tensions continue to rise between the US and North korea -

:58:34. > :58:39.we bring together a supporter of the North Korean regime

:58:40. > :59:33.The tax authorities in Britain have arrested several men working within

:59:34. > :59:37.football for a suspected tax and national insurance fraud.

:59:38. > :59:43.The latest news and sport at 10am, let's bring you the weather.

:59:44. > :59:48.It has been a cold start of the day before many of us, it has also been

:59:49. > :59:54.a beautiful one. We have seen some sunshine. This is a weather

:59:55. > :59:57.watcher's picture from Wales. Other parts of the UK has seen this

:59:58. > :00:02.sunshine as well. Some showers across the North and also the east.

:00:03. > :00:07.Some of those through the day will be heavy and thundery, some with

:00:08. > :00:11.hail mixed in. Cloud arriving across west of Scotland and Northern

:00:12. > :00:15.Ireland will bring some showery outbreaks of rain, more persistent

:00:16. > :00:17.in the Northern Isles as it sinks south overnight. It will turn weaker

:00:18. > :00:24.in nature and definitely more showery. It will be cold enough for

:00:25. > :00:30.some frost in the countryside. And some patchy fog. We will start off

:00:31. > :00:32.with some sunshine tomorrow morning. Our band of cloud continues to sink

:00:33. > :00:39.South with showery outbreaks of rain. Some brighter skies behind.

:00:40. > :00:43.Some showers moving across western Scotland and northern England.

:00:44. > :00:47.Eventually into Northern Ireland. It will not feel as cold tomorrow as

:00:48. > :00:57.today. Our temperature range from 8-12.

:00:58. > :00:59.Hello. It's Wednesday.

:01:00. > :01:00.It's 10am. I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

:01:01. > :01:02.Who cares about the general election?

:01:03. > :01:05.It's six weeks away and voter apathy remains high.

:01:06. > :01:07.We took two people to parliament to speak to politicians.

:01:08. > :01:13.Could it convince them to vote this time?

:01:14. > :01:19.A lot of lives people live is not the lives politicians life. They are

:01:20. > :01:24.the ones making the decisions. I think if they had to live a year on

:01:25. > :01:25.an average person's wage I'm not sure they would be able to manage

:01:26. > :01:29.that. We'll put that, and several other

:01:30. > :01:32.questions to a group of MPs Are North Korea and the US playing

:01:33. > :01:36.a terrifying game of chicken? And how dangerous is it

:01:37. > :01:39.for the rest of us? We're talking to a North Korean

:01:40. > :01:41.defector and a supporter The puppy farm murders -

:01:42. > :01:48.Surrey Police have been criticised for returning a collection

:01:49. > :01:51.of shotguns to a man who went on to kill his partner

:01:52. > :01:59.and her daughter. Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

:02:00. > :02:03.with a summary of today's news. Labour has promised to increase pay

:02:04. > :02:06.for NHS staff and scrap tuition fees for student nurses if it wins

:02:07. > :02:09.the general election. The party says it will

:02:10. > :02:11.abolish the current cap for staff in England which limits

:02:12. > :02:14.pay increases to 1%. Labour said the policies would help

:02:15. > :02:16.address staffing shortages in England that had become

:02:17. > :02:21.a "threat to patients". Surrey Police have been strongly

:02:22. > :02:26.criticised for returning a collection of shotguns to a man

:02:27. > :02:29.who went on to kill his Christine and Lucy Lee

:02:30. > :02:32.were shot by 82-year-old A report by the Independent Police

:02:33. > :02:37.Complaints Commission has highlighted serious failings

:02:38. > :02:39.by the force and said the way firearms are licensed

:02:40. > :02:41.across the country needs Detectives investigating

:02:42. > :02:47.the disappearance of Madeleine McCann say

:02:48. > :02:49.they are still pursuing what they describe as "critical

:02:50. > :02:52.leads" in the case. Next week will mark ten years

:02:53. > :02:54.since the three-year-old disappeared while on holiday

:02:55. > :02:57.with her parents in Portugal. Officers have confirmed that four

:02:58. > :02:59.people considered as possible suspects in 2013 have

:03:00. > :03:05.been ruled out. A former Health Secretary has said

:03:06. > :03:07.a "criminal cover-up on an industrial scale" took

:03:08. > :03:10.place over the use of NHS contaminated blood products

:03:11. > :03:11.in the 1970s and 1980s. More than 2,000 deaths have been

:03:12. > :03:16.linked to the scandal in which haemophiliacs and others

:03:17. > :03:19.were infected with Hepatitis C Speaking in the Commons last night,

:03:20. > :03:26.Andy Burnham said the victims New research in the US

:03:27. > :03:35.has found that cases New research has found that

:03:36. > :03:38.copying your boss into emails can make everyone else

:03:39. > :03:40.in the office distrust you. The study undertaken

:03:41. > :03:42.by Cambridge University found that while it could seem like a way

:03:43. > :03:44.to increase transparency, the "cc effect" fed a culture

:03:45. > :03:47.of fear amongst colleagues and many employees saw it as a potentially

:03:48. > :03:52.threatening move. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:03:53. > :04:03.News - more at 10.30am. More information on this HMRC

:04:04. > :04:11.information into tax fraud within sport. Our sports editor say that 50

:04:12. > :04:17.tax officials raided West Ham's stadium. They remain on site.

:04:18. > :04:22.Documents have been seized. HMRC officials have been at West Ham's

:04:23. > :04:26.ground from 8am this morning. They are still there. Documents have been

:04:27. > :04:28.seized. More details to come. As soon as we get them, we'll bring

:04:29. > :04:30.them to you. Do get in touch with us

:04:31. > :04:32.throughout the morning - use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

:04:33. > :04:36.and If you text, you will be charged Chelsea are seven points clear again

:04:37. > :04:41.at the top of the Premier League, thanks to a 4-2 win over Southampton

:04:42. > :04:44.at Stamford Bridge last night. Captain Gary Cahill

:04:45. > :04:46.was back in the starting line-up after illness

:04:47. > :04:49.and he gave his side a 2-1 lead Diego Costa hadn't scored

:04:50. > :04:58.in seven games for Chelsea, but got two last night to make

:04:59. > :05:10.sure of the victory. You must be ready for this mental

:05:11. > :05:18.effort also, not only a physical effort, but also a mental effort,

:05:19. > :05:22.but yeah, it is not easy but we are fighting and we are ready to fight

:05:23. > :05:26.from now until the end. Tottenham are Chelsea's nearest

:05:27. > :05:28.rivals and will try to narrow They travel to Selhurst Park to play

:05:29. > :05:32.a Crystal Palace side who have already beaten Arsenal, Liverpool,

:05:33. > :05:34.and Chelsea this month and Spurs will need to bounce back

:05:35. > :05:49.from losing to Chelsea in the FA Cup When you are competing at that

:05:50. > :05:57.level. It is so difficult. There is no time to regret. There is to time

:05:58. > :05:59.to complain. You have to be ready and to look at the game we have and

:06:00. > :06:03.to try and give your best. World number one Andy Murray

:06:04. > :06:06.is in action at the Barcelona Open today where he takes

:06:07. > :06:08.on Bernard Tomic. Maria Sharapova makes her return

:06:09. > :06:11.to tennis, following a 15 month The former Wimbledon

:06:12. > :06:14.champion is a wild card at the Stuttgart Open

:06:15. > :06:16.and that doesn't sit well with her opponent,

:06:17. > :06:33.Italy's Roberta Vinci. She said, of course, a great player

:06:34. > :06:43.and I have nothing against her, but she paid for her mistakes, but she

:06:44. > :06:52.paid and I think she can return to play, but without any wild card.

:06:53. > :06:55.Play is getting under way at the World Snooker Championship.

:06:56. > :06:58.Ronnie O'Sullivan has spent a lot of time sitting down,

:06:59. > :07:02.during his world snooker quarter-final against Ding Junhui.

:07:03. > :07:09.O'Sullivan won the last, but trails 10-6. The first to 13 frames wins,

:07:10. > :07:12.remember. They resume at 2.30pm and it's live on BBC Two.

:07:13. > :07:18.That's it for now, Victoria. So with a general election in six

:07:19. > :07:21.weeks time you're going to be New research out today suggests that

:07:22. > :07:25.most of us aren't all that Just a third of us are satisfied

:07:26. > :07:31.with the system we have for governing the country

:07:32. > :07:34.and the vast majority think we have So we took two people

:07:35. > :07:41.who are not really bothered by politics, don't think it

:07:42. > :07:44.represents them, and between them have only voted once to spend

:07:45. > :07:47.a day in Parliament. I feel that politicians

:07:48. > :07:55.make decisions for people they don't

:07:56. > :07:56.know anything about, because a lot of the lives people

:07:57. > :08:01.live are nothing like Here you are literally

:08:02. > :08:37.in a bear pit. It was quite intimidating.

:08:38. > :08:42.Emotional. Massively different than I expected it to be. I've come away

:08:43. > :08:50.feeling like I've got a good grasp of how politics works. I would

:08:51. > :08:55.confidently vote for the first time in 27 years. The majority of those

:08:56. > :09:00.that we met today would seem they are for the people, but I think

:09:01. > :09:03.people don't appreciate how much they actually have to do.

:09:04. > :09:11.Let's talk to Kiara Stone and Latifah Atkinson

:09:12. > :09:14.who you just saw in that film, Labour MP Dawn Butler,

:09:15. > :09:16.who is also Latifah's constinuency MP in Brent,

:09:17. > :09:18.she's also a former minister for youth engagement,

:09:19. > :09:20.Conservative MP for Bristol North West Charlotte

:09:21. > :09:22.Leslie, and Tasmina Ahmed Sheik SNP, MP for Ochil and Perthshire.

:09:23. > :09:30.Welcome all of you. The main issue for you was you thought politicians

:09:31. > :09:34.lived totally different lives to you, and therefore, how could they

:09:35. > :09:40.represent you? Do you feel differently or do you still not know

:09:41. > :09:42.the answer to that? I feel that, obviously, they still do live

:09:43. > :09:47.different lives, but I appreciate what they do much more now seeing

:09:48. > :09:52.first hand what they're doing and how the job, speaking to Dawn, and

:09:53. > :09:55.knowing what goes into their day-to-day life as an MP. So you

:09:56. > :10:01.have a better understanding of their jobs. Again, knowing more now, do

:10:02. > :10:05.you think, oh yeah, these are people that can represent me and do know

:10:06. > :10:08.the kind of life I lead? Yeah, I think it was really interesting,

:10:09. > :10:13.when in the House of Commons watching the MPs discussing what

:10:14. > :10:17.their constituents had come to them for help with, so that was really

:10:18. > :10:20.interesting. That made me realise yes, they are representing the

:10:21. > :10:24.people and they are taking these issues forward and talking about

:10:25. > :10:29.them in the House of Commons. And they do work hard which... Breaking

:10:30. > :10:36.news! MPs very do work hard!

:10:37. > :10:38.LAUGHTER Charlotte, the proportion of people

:10:39. > :10:42.feeling they have influence over national decision making is on the

:10:43. > :10:47.rise. The bad news, it has risen to 16%. That's not good, is it? It's

:10:48. > :10:50.not good and we have a lot more work to do. I think people look at

:10:51. > :10:53.Westminster and the Commons and see it as very different and

:10:54. > :10:56.out-of-touch and it is a constant mission as an MP to keep yourself in

:10:57. > :11:00.touch, but the fact that we have constituents... Is it hard it keep

:11:01. > :11:06.in touch? You go into this extraordinary place that's like

:11:07. > :11:10.Hogwarts. People start talking you mam and you sit-in green chairs. You

:11:11. > :11:14.have to meet constituents every week in your surgery. That's the most

:11:15. > :11:17.important bitment if you stay in Westminster the whole time, it is

:11:18. > :11:20.hard to keep it real. You come back home to the constituency, and you

:11:21. > :11:23.get such a privileged access to talk to people, make friends from

:11:24. > :11:27.constituents and see parts of, you know, your own community, you

:11:28. > :11:31.probably wouldn't see, that's, I call my constituency me reality,

:11:32. > :11:36.library, if you really want to find out what's going on in the world,

:11:37. > :11:40.talk to people in your constituency and going to the pub helps. You go

:11:41. > :11:47.to the pub with your constituents? I do, yes. Do you pay? I can't buy a

:11:48. > :11:53.drink during the election campaign because it's called bribery so happy

:11:54. > :11:57.days! Dawn, you are a constituency MP. I suspect there are a number of

:11:58. > :12:04.people who just think that politics is not for them. How do you engage

:12:05. > :12:10.people? Well, I have a programme of engaging specifically with young

:12:11. > :12:14.people so I ensure I go to schools and I conduct assemblies and I

:12:15. > :12:18.invite all the schools to Parliament so they can come and do a tour and I

:12:19. > :12:22.meet them afterwards and they can come and do a Q and A with me. Do

:12:23. > :12:28.you think you know about the lives they lead? Yeah, of course. I live

:12:29. > :12:33.the lives that they live. I live into my constituency, by I hold

:12:34. > :12:37.surgeries, I have an office based on the high street so people get to pop

:12:38. > :12:42.in. Whenever there is a change in universal credits for instance, I

:12:43. > :12:47.see my mailbag starting getting bigger in a particular area. So, you

:12:48. > :12:52.get to see every day what comes into your inbox and what comes into your

:12:53. > :12:55.mailbag. Do you think that this short run-up to the general

:12:56. > :12:59.election, for some people, six weeks is still too long, but compared to

:13:00. > :13:03.2015, for example, it is a very short run-up. That's going to have

:13:04. > :13:06.an impact on people engaging? Well, first of all, it will have an impact

:13:07. > :13:10.on those who are registered to vote. There has to be a long enough run in

:13:11. > :13:13.for people to be involved in the process and feel their vote is worth

:13:14. > :13:16.it and unfortunately, we've got a short run in to get people to

:13:17. > :13:19.register to vote and that's a problem and I think it's a shame

:13:20. > :13:22.that we're in this situation. Then we have to talk about how we

:13:23. > :13:25.continue to engage those who are registered to vote. In the

:13:26. > :13:29.independence referendum in 2014, giving the vote to 16 and

:13:30. > :13:42.17-year-olds was hugely advantageous... Was there 100%

:13:43. > :13:47.turn-out? We had 90% registered to vote and turn-out was good. How do

:13:48. > :13:51.we engage people in politics? Yes, we get to see their constituents

:13:52. > :13:54.which is a great privilege to be able to help people, but that's not

:13:55. > :13:56.everybody. Not everybody comes to see us and not everybody comes to

:13:57. > :14:00.see us in Parliament and not everybody reads newspapers. That's

:14:01. > :14:03.why in this election, when we have got a short run in, leaders debates

:14:04. > :14:09.are hugely important, you know, if you believe in the prospectus you

:14:10. > :14:13.are awe putting to the people, you should stand beside that prospectus

:14:14. > :14:18.and allow people become engaged in that debate. If it is one thing

:14:19. > :14:21.people see is a leaders debate. Do you want to see leaders debates

:14:22. > :14:31.involving the main party leaders? Did you watch it in 2015? No. No. I

:14:32. > :14:36.was disengaged with politics. You didn't watch any of the leaders

:14:37. > :14:41.debates? No. Any of the Question Times? No. Theresa May called an

:14:42. > :14:44.election at very short notice and so she should put her policies to the

:14:45. > :14:47.people so they can hear and so it can be debated. Prime Minister's

:14:48. > :14:50.Questions is not a political debate. It's a half an hour of theatre every

:14:51. > :14:58.Wednesday. OK. I'm going to play for our

:14:59. > :15:01.audience, they may have seen it on social media, something you did

:15:02. > :15:05.recently and I want to ask you if you think this is a way of bring

:15:06. > :15:07.interesting more people in politics and being a bit more inclusive.

:15:08. > :15:29.Let's look at this. # I stood there nothing

:15:30. > :15:33.# So I felt that everything # You held me down but I got up

:15:34. > :15:40.# Already brushing off the dust # that a way of getting more people

:15:41. > :15:53.involved? In 2003 a Labour government

:15:54. > :15:58.recognised British sign language but it hasn't got full status. I am

:15:59. > :16:01.running this campaign to get British sign language to the next step that

:16:02. > :16:06.it is a way of breaking down barriers and it is breaking down

:16:07. > :16:08.another set of barriers. One in six people have hearing difficulties.

:16:09. > :16:14.There's a whole group of people that need to be engaged. If signing

:16:15. > :16:27.helps, that's fantastic. We have to leave it there. Thank you very much.

:16:28. > :16:31.Thanks for going to Parliament. The next six weeks are all about it. If

:16:32. > :16:35.you have stories that aren't being reported, the worst to take part in

:16:36. > :16:38.TV discussions like we have today at talk directly to politicians about

:16:39. > :16:45.their policies, do get in touch. You can e-mail me.

:16:46. > :16:50.More on the news that Surrey Police have been severely criticised for

:16:51. > :16:57.its decision to return firearms to a man who went on to shoot dead his

:16:58. > :17:01.partner and her daughter. John Lowe murdered Christine and Lucy Lee at a

:17:02. > :17:09.puppy farm in 2014 shortly after police returned his guns. Despite

:17:10. > :17:13.Mrs Lee's other daughter said he had threatened her with them. She was

:17:14. > :17:15.later arrested. Something the Independent Police Complaints

:17:16. > :17:17.Commission says should not have happened. Three police officers and

:17:18. > :17:46.two staff have cases to answer. We need to take into account all

:17:47. > :17:49.available information, they are checked and double checked. That

:17:50. > :17:54.didn't happen and that is a matter of deep regret. It has led to

:17:55. > :17:59.significant pain and suffering and loss for many people.

:18:00. > :18:10.Not least Stacey Banner the sister of Lucy Lee. Good morning to you,

:18:11. > :18:11.thank you for talking to us. I gather you watch the interview and

:18:12. > :18:22.what would you like to say about it? There are still a lot of questions

:18:23. > :18:23.that need answering. I want to know what Rafferty knows when my sister

:18:24. > :18:33.made the 999 call. He's quite strong in saying we are

:18:34. > :18:37.going to make changes. And this won't happen again.

:18:38. > :18:50.You told the police seven months before the guns were returned that

:18:51. > :18:58.they shouldn't. What did you say to them? I told the police had

:18:59. > :19:06.dangerous he was. I told the police that he would kill and he did. He

:19:07. > :19:08.killed my mum and my sister. Ultimately, I have no other family

:19:09. > :19:16.other than my husband and my children. When he is saying with all

:19:17. > :19:20.the family that are... You know... Concerned in terms of... I am the

:19:21. > :19:37.only family. Of my mum and sister. No mother, I have no system now,

:19:38. > :19:39.thanks to Surrey Police. They knew he had criminal associates, then

:19:40. > :19:50.knew how dangerous he was but they took no notice of me. Why do you

:19:51. > :19:53.think that was? There is another report that is due to come out and

:19:54. > :19:59.ultimately a lot more questions will be answered in that.

:20:00. > :20:06.When that happens, I feel I might get some answers. You know,

:20:07. > :20:12.realistically, Surrey Police have tortured me. They've made my life

:20:13. > :20:17.absolute hell. They arrested me. You know, they held me in a cell for 22

:20:18. > :20:23.hours. When I was choosing coffins for my mum and sister. They have

:20:24. > :20:28.been on a hate campaign, a smear campaign, to blacken my name.

:20:29. > :20:38.Because, obviously, I know the truth. The truth is, they were fully

:20:39. > :20:43.aware of what John Lowe was capable of. They knew for years. Can I ask

:20:44. > :20:51.you what threats he'd made to you, previously, John Lowe. Yeah. He

:20:52. > :20:56.threatened to shoot me. Growing up he was an incredibly

:20:57. > :21:11.dangerous man. You know, there were numerous

:21:12. > :21:15.threats. To me. What do you intend to do now, Stacy Banner?

:21:16. > :21:20.threats. To me. What do you intend to do now, Stacy I intend to get

:21:21. > :21:25.justice. It means that every police officer involved in this is to face

:21:26. > :21:30.justice. The firearms officers, for example, I can't change what has

:21:31. > :21:35.happened there. Ultimately, you said quite a valid point in terms of, do

:21:36. > :21:41.they still get their pensions? Well, of course they do.

:21:42. > :21:47.The guy that retired, you know, ultimately, he's happy. He's going

:21:48. > :21:52.to have a great life. I'm living in a rented house, still fighting for

:21:53. > :21:58.justice. The fact of the matter is... I have to keep going with

:21:59. > :22:07.this. Because they knew how dangerous he was. So you're going to

:22:08. > :22:12.sue Surrey Police? Yes. Because you want further sanctions for those you

:22:13. > :22:17.say were involved? Or because you want compensation? Well, obviously,

:22:18. > :22:21.there's no amount of money that can make this better.

:22:22. > :22:28.There isn't a price for my mum and sister. There is no price for my mum

:22:29. > :22:34.and my sister to be here. I saw them in the morgue. There is no price for

:22:35. > :22:38.what I've had to go through in terms of Surrey Police. If there is, I

:22:39. > :22:48.would like someone to name it. How do you try to deal with the loss

:22:49. > :22:51.of your mum and sister at the hands of your stepfather?

:22:52. > :23:01.It doesn't ever go away. This doesn't go away. This doesn't get

:23:02. > :23:05.better, this doesn't get easier. Realistically, the worst pain is

:23:06. > :23:13.that I've had to... I've read that report months ago. When I read it,

:23:14. > :23:19.there was no shock, there was no surprise, because everything that

:23:20. > :23:26.was in it is true. It's incredibly scary that anyone would hand him as

:23:27. > :23:32.much as a catapult, let alone guns. When you hear Surrey Police and

:23:33. > :23:35.regenerate their apology to you... They have never... I need to

:23:36. > :23:43.emphasise this point, Surrey Police have never ever apologised to me.

:23:44. > :23:50.Really? Never apologised to me. Ever. They've apologised to the

:23:51. > :24:00.family that I haven't seen for 26 years. They have never apologised to

:24:01. > :24:04.me. Or my children. Or my husband. They didn't apologise to me when

:24:05. > :24:11.they were putting me in a cell for 22 hours. When I couldn't eat or

:24:12. > :24:19.drink. They've never apologised... It infuriates me that he is saying,

:24:20. > :24:22."We apologise to the family". What exactly are you apologising for? Are

:24:23. > :24:29.you apologising for the fact that you handed back a psychopath, a

:24:30. > :24:35.known psychopath, guns? Or are you actually apologising for what hell

:24:36. > :24:43.and torture you have put me through? What are they apologising for?

:24:44. > :24:50.Because sorry is a great word but I've seen absolutely no truth at all

:24:51. > :24:55.from Surrey Police. Stacy, thank you for talking to us this morning.

:24:56. > :25:00.Stacy Banner, the sister of Lucy Lee, the daughter of Christine Lee,

:25:01. > :25:04.both of whom were murdered by her stepfather, John Lowe several months

:25:05. > :25:09.after police gave his collection of shotguns back to him. Stacy Banner

:25:10. > :25:13.telling us exclusively she is going to sue Surrey Police.

:25:14. > :25:15.Still to come, a report by politicians in scotland says

:25:16. > :25:17.children may be at risk, because the system designed

:25:18. > :25:21.to prevent abuse in football is not working properly.

:25:22. > :25:32.The American military has begun installing parts of an advanced

:25:33. > :25:35.missile defence system at a site in South Korea.

:25:36. > :25:37.Tension is high over North Korea's missile

:25:38. > :25:42.Hundreds of local residents protested, as a convoy of vehicles

:25:43. > :25:46.carried equipment to a former golf course.

:25:47. > :25:48.We can talk now to two people with very different

:25:49. > :25:57.Dermot Hudson is the chairman of the UK-Korean Friendship Association,

:25:58. > :26:03.the biggest community of North Korea supporters in the UK.

:26:04. > :26:06.And Lord David Alton, is the chairman of the All-Party

:26:07. > :26:09.Parliamentary Group on North Korea and a campaigner on human rights.

:26:10. > :26:16.Good morning to you. Dermot, North Korea is run by an erratic dictator,

:26:17. > :26:23.when he gets angry, he has members of his own family killed and puts

:26:24. > :26:28.many of his own people in prison camps, labour camps for cells. He

:26:29. > :26:33.makes sure his keyboard are kept hungry. Do you disagree? Total

:26:34. > :26:38.rubbish. -- he makes sure his people are kept hungry. I was just back

:26:39. > :26:44.from the DPRK. I was just there. I came back on Sunday morning. I spent

:26:45. > :26:49.two weeks in the DPRK. I visited it 13 times. It is absolute rubbish.

:26:50. > :27:03.Some of the reports about executions have been proved to be untrue. For

:27:04. > :27:08.example, it was said that General Ri Yong-gil, the chief of staff was

:27:09. > :27:15.executed but he later turned up. He has just been promoted again. Was it

:27:16. > :27:22.not true that he puts his own people inside Labour camps? No. It's not

:27:23. > :27:30.true? I've never seen one. So they don't exist because you haven't seen

:27:31. > :27:34.one in one of your 13 visits? ! It is claimed by South Korea, it is

:27:35. > :27:40.claimed by the west. It is claimed by the person to the left of me that

:27:41. > :27:44.there are huge labour camps, as big as towns.

:27:45. > :27:53.Surely, I would have seen one by now. Because, I mean, in London...

:27:54. > :27:58.Does that sound sensible to you? No. Surely Dermot would have seen one,

:27:59. > :28:01.he's been there 13 times. He has been escorted, he would have seen

:28:02. > :28:04.what they would allow him to see. One of the reasons he won't appear

:28:05. > :28:07.on a programme with someone who has escaped from North Korea is because

:28:08. > :28:10.some of them have escaped from these camps that he says are a figment of

:28:11. > :28:15.the imagination. It doesn't matter what he or I think, the United

:28:16. > :28:18.Nations commissioned an enquiry three years ago headed up by Mr

:28:19. > :28:24.Justice Kirby published a report that set up to 200,000 people are in

:28:25. > :28:27.these imaginary camps. He said it is a state without parallel anywhere in

:28:28. > :28:30.the world, that every one of the study article of the universal

:28:31. > :28:36.declaration of human rights are being violated in that country. 2

:28:37. > :28:40.million people starved to death in the 1990s while it spends one quart

:28:41. > :28:43.of its gross domestic product on military weapons and armaments. It

:28:44. > :28:47.is now trying to blackmail and bully the rest of the world by the

:28:48. > :28:53.development of nuclear capability. This is a state without parallel. It

:28:54. > :28:57.is outrageous, it beggars belief to me that anybody would be here

:28:58. > :29:06.apologising or trying to speak up for that regime. I mean, again, this

:29:07. > :29:11.is all... Full of... Falsehood. Members of the United Nations are

:29:12. > :29:15.making it up, are they? Lying? They are acting on behalf of the US.

:29:16. > :29:20.George Kirby is a man with strong US connections. What would be the

:29:21. > :29:24.motivation for making all that up? -- judge Kirby. To demonise the

:29:25. > :29:28.DPRK, to turn the west against it. When you hear it from defectors,

:29:29. > :29:32.what do you think, they are making it up as well? Yes. I have chaired

:29:33. > :29:36.hearings in the House of Lords which has been addressed by escapees. They

:29:37. > :29:43.would leave you in tears, when you are about the things that has

:29:44. > :29:45.happened to them. A catalogue of executions, torture, rape. Massive

:29:46. > :29:48.violations of human rights occur in North Korea. It must change. Anyone

:29:49. > :29:51.who loves the people of North Korea would be working for change.

:29:52. > :29:58.Instead, we are on the brink of a war. The Sarajevo moment, if it were

:29:59. > :30:01.to occur, the law unintended consequences, we could see another

:30:02. > :30:05.one the Korean peninsular. Last time, 3 million people died on a war

:30:06. > :30:10.in the Korean peninsula including 1000 British servicemen. More than

:30:11. > :30:13.in the Falklands, Afghanistan and Iraq combined. That is the danger

:30:14. > :30:21.the world faces at the moment. As Churchill said, we need less war and

:30:22. > :30:24.more George Orr. It is good China is playing that role, trying to bring

:30:25. > :30:29.about reform. It is good the BBC are helping to break the information

:30:30. > :30:34.blockade around North Korea by instigating BBC world broadcast

:30:35. > :30:37.services to the country. It is why we must press at the United Nations

:30:38. > :30:40.Security Council during meetings this week for the North Korean

:30:41. > :30:43.regime to be brought before the International criminal court, so

:30:44. > :30:49.that these allegations can be tested. Including the use of toxic

:30:50. > :30:55.nerve agents to kill people who are opponents of reform inside North

:30:56. > :31:00.Korea. In international airports. Forgive me, you snorted at the term

:31:01. > :31:11.toxic nerve agents. You don't believe that either? At a nonsense.

:31:12. > :31:17.They wouldn't be able to use the airport for years and years. Can I

:31:18. > :31:20.go on record here Briefly. I don't appear on programmes with defectors

:31:21. > :31:28.because of the risk toe personal safety. A lot of these people are

:31:29. > :31:32.criminals. They are dangerous. Listen, a young man came to see me

:31:33. > :31:37.who had escaped twice from North Korea and who was tortured in North

:31:38. > :31:39.Korea and he is the first person to have gone through a British

:31:40. > :31:44.university and achieved a degree in this country. You can't sit with

:31:45. > :31:48.someone like that and listen to their personal story and what about

:31:49. > :31:54.the woman who came and addressed us in Parliament? It is like the

:31:55. > :31:59.defensive Stalin in the 1930s... I knew quite well one defector, the

:32:00. > :32:03.one who was at the embassy in London. This is the number two in

:32:04. > :32:09.the embassy in London. He wasn't a defector. Yeah, he was a number two

:32:10. > :32:16.the embassy and he turned the spotlight on North Korea by telling

:32:17. > :32:19.it as it isment this is like the 1930s and the defence of Stalin by

:32:20. > :32:22.the communists by the whole of the West and we're going through the

:32:23. > :32:25.same nonsense all over again. We must tell the truth of what is

:32:26. > :32:33.happening in North Korea and do something about it. Thank you.

:32:34. > :32:37.Labour has promised to increase pay for NHS staff and scrap tuition fees

:32:38. > :32:39.for student nurses if it wins the general election.

:32:40. > :32:41.for student nurses and midwives - that's what the Labour Party

:32:42. > :32:55.is promising, if it wins the general election.

:32:56. > :32:57.Several men from the professional football industry have been arrested

:32:58. > :32:59.over suspected income tax and national insurance fraud.

:33:00. > :33:02.The BBC understands HMRC officials raided West Ham's offices

:33:03. > :33:04.at the London Stadium this morning and seized documents.

:33:05. > :33:06.Officers have also been deployed in the north east

:33:07. > :33:09.Surrey Police have been strongly criticised for returning

:33:10. > :33:12.a collection of shotguns to a man who went on to kill his

:33:13. > :33:19.Christine and Lucy Lee were shot by 82-year-old John Lowe in 2014.

:33:20. > :33:21.A report by the Independent Police Complaints Commission has

:33:22. > :33:23.highlighted serious failings by the force and said the way

:33:24. > :33:25.firearms are licensed across the country needs

:33:26. > :33:37.We have been told by the daughter of Chris teen Lee that she will be

:33:38. > :33:40.suing Surrey Police. Detectives investigating

:33:41. > :33:42.the disappearance of Madeleine McCann say

:33:43. > :33:43.they are still pursuing what they describe as "critical

:33:44. > :33:46.leads" in the case. Next week will mark ten years

:33:47. > :33:48.since the three-year-old disappeared while on holiday

:33:49. > :33:50.with her parents in Portugal. Officers have confirmed that four

:33:51. > :33:52.people considered as possible suspects in 2013 have

:33:53. > :34:00.been ruled out. Sunderland manager David Moyes has

:34:01. > :34:12.been charged by the FA after telling BBC reporter Vicki Sparks she might

:34:13. > :34:15."get a slap". He was caught on camera making

:34:16. > :34:18.the remarks following his team's draw against Burnley last month,

:34:19. > :34:20.and has until 3rd May Chelsea beat Southampton last night

:34:21. > :34:25.to move seven points clear Diego Costa scored twice in a 4-2

:34:26. > :34:33.victory and captain Gary Cahill says it's a "massive step"

:34:34. > :34:37.Maria Sharapova is back playing tennis today, after her 15 month

:34:38. > :34:39.suspension for doping. The former Wimbledon champion

:34:40. > :34:41.is a controversial wild card Ronnie O'Sullivan

:34:42. > :34:47.is in real trouble at He won the last frame against

:34:48. > :34:52.China's Ding Junhui but trails 10-6 The match resumes at

:34:53. > :34:57.2.30pm, live on BBC Two. I'll have more sport

:34:58. > :35:07.on the News Channel Thank you very much. Hopefully you

:35:08. > :35:17.will be wearing a suit because for some reason you have to change!

:35:18. > :35:19.The UK tax authorities have announced the arrest

:35:20. > :35:21.of several men working within the professional football

:35:22. > :35:23.industry for suspected income tax and National insurance fraud.

:35:24. > :35:25.Our Sports News correspondent Richard Conway joins me now.

:35:26. > :35:31.Big developments this morning, Victoria. There have been raids by

:35:32. > :35:35.Her Majesty's revenues and Customs Officers at Newcastle United stadium

:35:36. > :35:39.and at the London Stadium which is the home now of West Ham United. 180

:35:40. > :35:44.officers deployed in total we're told. Several arrests have been

:35:45. > :35:46.made. There have been business records and financial records and

:35:47. > :35:51.computers and mobile phones have been seized, that's what the HMRC

:35:52. > :35:54.confirmed to us in addition to that, authorities in France are said to be

:35:55. > :35:58.assisting HMRC in this investigation. There have been

:35:59. > :36:02.locations searched there as well. There seems to be a major

:36:03. > :36:08.investigation in total and it all started this morning. Again, you may

:36:09. > :36:13.not know this, do we know if it is players that's been targeted,

:36:14. > :36:18.managers, if it's chairmen, agents? We don't know the details. HMRC are

:36:19. > :36:22.keeping their cards close to their chest. They say this criminal

:36:23. > :36:25.investigation sends a message whoever you are, if you commit tax

:36:26. > :36:29.fraud you can expect to face the consequences. They say it is an on

:36:30. > :36:34.going investigation and they can't provide more detail at this time,

:36:35. > :36:37.but we know that football is a complex and international business.

:36:38. > :36:40.There has been a lot of player transfers between English clubs and

:36:41. > :36:44.French clubs in recent years. We don't know the exact detail, but we

:36:45. > :36:49.will have to await that detail, but this looks like it is a major

:36:50. > :36:51.investigation given the number of officers involved, premises raided

:36:52. > :36:56.and arrests made. Thank you very much.

:36:57. > :37:01.Richard Conway, our sports news correspondent. More on BBC News.

:37:02. > :37:06.The Scottish Football Association is "asleep on the job" over child

:37:07. > :37:13.protection in sport, a new report by MSPs claims.

:37:14. > :37:15.The Scottish Parliament's Health and Sport Committee found that

:37:16. > :37:17.children may yet be at risk because the system designed

:37:18. > :37:24.to prevent abuse in sport is not working properly.

:37:25. > :37:26.Joining us now from outside the Scottish Parliament

:37:27. > :37:29.is Neil Findlay, who is the Labour MSP for Lothian and is

:37:30. > :37:31.the committee's convener, the person in charge of the report.

:37:32. > :37:39.Tell our audience what you have discovered? Good morning, Victoria.

:37:40. > :37:44.The committee was not investigating the historic abuse of children. What

:37:45. > :37:47.we were looking at was the protecting vulnerable groups scheme

:37:48. > :37:53.that operates here in Scotland and whether that was robust enough to do

:37:54. > :37:56.all it could to protect children who are involved in sporting activity.

:37:57. > :38:01.That's what the committee was looking at. We've come to the

:38:02. > :38:05.conclusion that we are not confident that that scheme is operating in

:38:06. > :38:11.such a way that it provides the maximum protection. What's going

:38:12. > :38:16.wrong then? Well, there is a variation in the way in which the

:38:17. > :38:20.scheme is applied. It can mean that some people are working with

:38:21. > :38:24.children without having fully been through this scheme and the scheme

:38:25. > :38:28.is not mandatory and we think the scheme should be mandatory and there

:38:29. > :38:33.are changes that should be made to the PVG scheme that would try to

:38:34. > :38:40.ensure that children are protected as much as they possibly can. Right,

:38:41. > :38:43.OK. So, because it's an optional scheme you don't know who is working

:38:44. > :38:50.with young children in sport, really? That's a part of it, but

:38:51. > :38:57.another issue is that some sports bodies allow adults to do some work

:38:58. > :39:00.with children prior to the PVG process being complete. Now, that's

:39:01. > :39:05.supposed to be supervised work. They're not supposed to be left

:39:06. > :39:10.alone with children, but there is a clear variation in how that is

:39:11. > :39:15.applied and we're not confident that the scheme is operating to the

:39:16. > :39:19.maximum and has the maximum protection. OK, so what needs to

:39:20. > :39:23.change then for it to have the maximum protection? What does that

:39:24. > :39:26.involve? The Government has agreed, the Scottish Government agreed to

:39:27. > :39:30.review the scheme, but that review won't report for a year. Therefore,

:39:31. > :39:35.we think that action needs to be taken now and we think that within

:39:36. > :39:39.the way in which the scheme operates there are some changes that could be

:39:40. > :39:44.made now and we think the Government should look at the operation of the

:39:45. > :39:49.scheme in that interim period, but there is responsibilities on sports

:39:50. > :39:53.governing bodies because they award grants to sports Scotland awards

:39:54. > :39:59.grants to sports governing bodies who then award money on to clubs and

:40:00. > :40:03.organisations. As part of the deal between Sport Scotland and the

:40:04. > :40:08.sports governing bodies we think they should be making high demands

:40:09. > :40:14.of those governing bodies to comply with the PVG scheme in a mandatory

:40:15. > :40:18.way, but also ensure that they have the maximum policies in place for

:40:19. > :40:22.child protection. You pointed out, you say that the Scottish Youth

:40:23. > :40:26.Football Association has misled Government officials and your

:40:27. > :40:31.committee in relation to the levels of backlog being experienced when it

:40:32. > :40:33.comes to checking on coaches and officials working with young

:40:34. > :40:38.footballers. How have they misled you? Well, we had to recall both the

:40:39. > :40:42.Scottish Football Association and the Youth Football Association to

:40:43. > :40:47.committee to give evidence because the evidence that we received on the

:40:48. > :40:53.backlog was inconsistent, the numbers they provided to the

:40:54. > :40:56.committee and to Government and then repeatedly provided, repeated again

:40:57. > :40:59.when they came back to the committee were frankly all over the place.

:41:00. > :41:03.Where they deliberately trying to mislead you or was it human error,

:41:04. > :41:09.what do you think? I cannot tell that. But the numbers were

:41:10. > :41:13.inconsistent and we felt that they were, the committee was misled.

:41:14. > :41:18.Right, so were they saying the backlog wasn't as bad as it is?

:41:19. > :41:22.Well, the numbers were inconsistent. So some numbers were given saying

:41:23. > :41:28.that there was a large backlog. The BBC did some very good work on this

:41:29. > :41:32.issue and investigating coaches in football who were not completely PVG

:41:33. > :41:37.cleared and then the numbers changed as we went through the process and

:41:38. > :41:43.they were inconsistent. However, we have criticism of the Scottish

:41:44. > :41:49.Football Association because they are the parent body of they are an

:41:50. > :41:54.affiliated organisation the SFYA and the SFA appeared to have, as the

:41:55. > :41:57.committee report, says to have been asleep on at the wheel on such an

:41:58. > :42:02.important issue. Thank you very much for talking to us. That's the member

:42:03. > :42:04.of the Scottish Parliament for Lothian and he is the committee's

:42:05. > :42:09.chairman or convenor. NHS staff will get higher pay

:42:10. > :42:13.and there will be no tuition fees for student nurses and midwives,

:42:14. > :42:15.that's what the Labour Party is promising, if it wins

:42:16. > :42:17.the general election. It says the policies would help

:42:18. > :42:19.address staffing shortages in England that had become

:42:20. > :42:21.a "threat to patients". Our Political Guru,

:42:22. > :42:29.Norman Smith is at Westminster. Fill us in Norman. Hi, Vic, what do

:42:30. > :42:33.you do if you're having a sticky election? You try and change the

:42:34. > :42:38.agenda. You move it on which is what Labour are hoping to do today, to

:42:39. > :42:44.get it off Brexit and questions about Mr Corbyn's leadership to much

:42:45. > :42:47.more favourable terrain, the NHS which Labour think Mrs May is

:42:48. > :42:54.vulnerable. We have had pressures on A and waiting times going in the

:42:55. > :42:59.wrong direction and the junior doctors strike. Let's take a look at

:43:00. > :43:04.it. Top priority is a pay rise for everyone who works in the NHS

:43:05. > :43:07.because the pay is capped at the moment at 1%. That cap is going to

:43:08. > :43:11.stay until 2020. Labour are saying there should be a pay rise to match

:43:12. > :43:16.the course of living. That would mean pay increases of 2.5%, 3%.

:43:17. > :43:19.Point number two, they are talking about increasing staffing levels.

:43:20. > :43:24.They're suggesting that there should be a rerue view of what is a safe --

:43:25. > :43:28.review of what is a safe staffing level to have on wards and hospitals

:43:29. > :43:31.would be obliged to make sure the right number of nurses and others

:43:32. > :43:36.were on the wards. That too, of course, would cost money. And the

:43:37. > :43:40.last thing they're talking about is bringing back bursaries for student

:43:41. > :43:44.nurses which were scrapped by the Conservatives and we have seen in

:43:45. > :43:47.the past year something like a 25% drop in the number of students

:43:48. > :43:53.applying to become nurses. Labour say they would reverse that. That is

:43:54. > :43:57.going to cost quite a bit of money. Labour say they can find the

:43:58. > :44:01.billions that would be needed for all that from reversing solicitor of

:44:02. > :44:07.the Conservatives changes to corp -- some of the changes to corporation

:44:08. > :44:10.tax as wealth taxes and the Shadow Health Secretary, John Ashworth said

:44:11. > :44:13.it is not about money. The money is there, it is about Mrs May's

:44:14. > :44:16.ideology. Have a listen. Let's be absolutely clear,

:44:17. > :44:19.when you can find billions for corporation tax cuts,

:44:20. > :44:21.you can find a billion for inheritance tax cuts,

:44:22. > :44:25.when you can find millions for new grammar schools

:44:26. > :44:27.and other pet projects, when it comes to the NHS,

:44:28. > :44:29.what prevents this Prime It's not the financial

:44:30. > :44:32.constraints of the economy, but the dogmatic constraints

:44:33. > :44:46.of her ideology. What dot Conservatives say? They say

:44:47. > :44:51.the sums don't add up. The money from corporation tax and inheritance

:44:52. > :44:54.tax and reversing the bank levy changes, that's been spent by

:44:55. > :44:58.Labour, who have spent the money on plans to nationalise the railways,

:44:59. > :45:02.to provide support for British Steel, to reverse various benefit

:45:03. > :45:03.changes. The sums don't add up. Say the Tories. This was the Health

:45:04. > :45:07.Secretary up-to-date this morning. The fact is that we all want to give

:45:08. > :45:11.more money to nurses and doctors on the front-line,

:45:12. > :45:13.who do a brilliant job. But how are you going to get more

:45:14. > :45:17.money into the NHS to do that? Whoever is Prime Minister of this

:45:18. > :45:20.country after the election will be lined up against 27 other European

:45:21. > :45:23.countries who may not have Britain's Getting the best Brexit deal

:45:24. > :45:27.to support the British economy, British jobs, will mean more money

:45:28. > :45:31.for the NHS and the choice people have is, do they want a strong

:45:32. > :45:34.Theresa May to do that job or Jeremy Corbyn, propped up by

:45:35. > :45:46.a ragtag of other political parties? So, the health service is obviously

:45:47. > :45:50.going to be one of the big election stories and the other one is about

:45:51. > :45:56.tactical voting. We have had Jean Miller, the woman who forced the

:45:57. > :46:03.government by going to court -- Gina Millar. She got the vote to

:46:04. > :46:07.Parliament. She studied a tactical voting campaign and has raised

:46:08. > :46:11.something like ?300,000 from crowdfunding. -- she's started a

:46:12. > :46:16.tactical voting campaign. To provide cash for those candidate she says

:46:17. > :46:20.who will stand up to hard Brexit and will look at all the different

:46:21. > :46:26.options when it comes to Brexit. But she said she is still getting an

:46:27. > :46:28.awful lot of grief for her stance on social media for her stance and

:46:29. > :46:28.elsewhere. The abuse hasn't died

:46:29. > :46:30.down and I have ended up people have tried to

:46:31. > :46:36.destroy me in every way. But at the same time, I have a huge

:46:37. > :46:48.sense of responsibility. Gena Miller only one of a number of

:46:49. > :46:50.different people in groups trying to encourage tactical voting in this

:46:51. > :46:56.election on the issue of Brexit. -- Gina Miller. A good deal of

:46:57. > :47:00.scepticism about how much impact that will actually have. At the end

:47:01. > :47:03.of the day, do people listen to those urging them to vote

:47:04. > :47:08.tactically? Or two people make up their own minds? There is a sense

:47:09. > :47:09.that maybe it won't have that much impact despite the intervention of

:47:10. > :47:12.people like Gina Miller. Thank you. Next, we're going to talk

:47:13. > :47:14.about "stealthing". I'll explain what it

:47:15. > :47:16.is in just a second, but the nature of our conversation

:47:17. > :47:18.means inevitably we're going to go into some detail,

:47:19. > :47:21.so you may not want children It's the deliberate

:47:22. > :47:27.and non-consensual removal It's not just distressing

:47:28. > :47:33.for someone who'd only consented to sex if protection was used,

:47:34. > :47:37.it's potentially rape. It's been trending on social media,

:47:38. > :47:39.after one woman's research Alexandra Brodsky has spoken to many

:47:40. > :47:50.people who have been "stealthed" Sandra Paul is a solicitor

:47:51. > :48:00.who specialises in sexual offences, and Miriam,

:48:01. > :48:03.who is a teacher in Oslo, Norway, she only wishes

:48:04. > :48:06.to use her first name - she's waived her right to anonymity

:48:07. > :48:15.to speak to us today. We are very grateful for your time,

:48:16. > :48:22.Miriam thank you for talking to us. You were stealthed in 2014, tell us

:48:23. > :48:27.what happened. The thing is with stealthing, it starts like every

:48:28. > :48:34.other ordinary night. You go out with friends, you maybe go dancing

:48:35. > :48:39.and in my case I had met a guy who seemed very nice. We danced and we

:48:40. > :48:45.talked and exchanged phone numbers. We decided to go home together. On

:48:46. > :48:50.the way home, we walked by some corner shops. I asked him if I

:48:51. > :48:55.should stop and buy condoms, because, safety. He said he had

:48:56. > :49:02.plenty at home so it wasn't necessary for me to buy some. Then

:49:03. > :49:05.I'd proceeded as it usually does. -- then the night proceeded. It seems

:49:06. > :49:09.like a regular sexual encounter until the middle I noticed he wasn't

:49:10. > :49:15.wearing a condom so I told him to stop. Again, I was concerned for

:49:16. > :49:22.safety. Being that he was stronger than me, he forced the issue. It is

:49:23. > :49:26.very different from regular sex. You think you can send to something and

:49:27. > :49:31.suddenly the terms of the sexual encounter changes. What you have

:49:32. > :49:38.just described, to me, is very clearly rape. You told him to stop

:49:39. > :49:43.and he continued. Yes. Let me bring in Alexandra. Thank you for being so

:49:44. > :49:51.honest and open about that because that's really important. Alexandra,

:49:52. > :49:55.was that stealthing or rape that Miriam just described? It sounds

:49:56. > :50:00.like it has aspects of both. Miriam, thank you for sharing your story and

:50:01. > :50:04.I agree that it is both a problem that he wasn't honest about his

:50:05. > :50:08.condom use but also if someone says that they want to stop sex for any

:50:09. > :50:14.reason, their partner has to respect that. Tell us more about the kind of

:50:15. > :50:22.women you have spoken to who have experienced this. Sure. I've spoken

:50:23. > :50:26.to a number of people in the course of my research and I've also heard

:50:27. > :50:32.from many more, both men and women, since the article came out. Everyone

:50:33. > :50:37.has different experiences. People react differently to nonconsensual

:50:38. > :50:40.condom removal. One thing I kept hearing is that in addition to a

:50:41. > :50:46.fear of sexually transmitted infections or pregnancy, victims all

:50:47. > :50:49.felt that their partner had really betrayed their trust, had really

:50:50. > :50:54.denied their choice and their will and their autonomy. In that way,

:50:55. > :51:00.it's important that we see nonconsensual condom removal as of a

:51:01. > :51:06.kind as other forms of gender based violence. OK, you are describing it

:51:07. > :51:12.happening between people who are going out with each other as well?

:51:13. > :51:17.Sure. Often, we overlook forms of violence within relationships. It is

:51:18. > :51:21.absolutely true that nonconsensual condom removal doesn't care what

:51:22. > :51:26.your relationship status is. Miriam, can I ask you how violated you felt

:51:27. > :51:33.after that? It was very difficult, at first, to

:51:34. > :51:38.even admit that something violent had happened.

:51:39. > :51:46.I had consented to sex, voluntarily I had removed my clothes and gone

:51:47. > :51:51.home with him. When I told people about this later they say it wasn't,

:51:52. > :51:56.you know, assault, was it, because after all you had consented to sex.

:51:57. > :52:02.You had consented to sex with a condom. Using a condom. Exactly. It

:52:03. > :52:04.took me a while to realise or to admit to myself that what had

:52:05. > :52:11.happened was actually a form of assault. You become so uncertain

:52:12. > :52:16.because you started out yourself. Especially because our society tells

:52:17. > :52:19.women that they... If they start something with a man, we are held to

:52:20. > :52:26.the expectations that we have to finish it. Right. It took a long

:52:27. > :52:31.time for me to, you know, find the words to describe what this was. But

:52:32. > :52:36.the worst part was that I was immediately concerned about my

:52:37. > :52:41.physical safety. I didn't know this man prior to this. He could have had

:52:42. > :52:49.disease. He could have got me pregnant. I had to wait for the

:52:50. > :52:56.worst disease, HIV, you have to wait six months to get your test results

:52:57. > :53:03.back. That was six months of uncertainty and fear, not knowing

:53:04. > :53:06.what might happen later. It is in addition to the uncertainty when you

:53:07. > :53:10.don't have the words to describe what has been done to you, you get

:53:11. > :53:13.the nagging feeling that you might actually... There might be lifelong

:53:14. > :53:17.consequences that you have no control over. Of course. Sandra, you

:53:18. > :53:24.are a solicitor specialising in sexual offences. Is it rape? I think

:53:25. > :53:27.absolutely it is. What Miriam has described is a mixture, I agree. But

:53:28. > :53:31.if we're thinking about the nonconsensual removal of a condom,

:53:32. > :53:35.yes, that is because the central issue is, when it comes to rape is

:53:36. > :53:39.about consent. If you've made your consent conditional on wearing a

:53:40. > :53:45.condom, to remove that without the other person's knowledge means that

:53:46. > :53:49.you've negated the consent that you have originally given. Therefore the

:53:50. > :53:58.continuing penetration is one that is unlawful. Can you imagine trying

:53:59. > :54:00.to prosecute a man who was able to say, truthfully, this woman

:54:01. > :54:05.consented to sex and we were wearing a condom and you know what, it just

:54:06. > :54:09.came off, you know how it does? That comes down to the issue of the

:54:10. > :54:12.quality of the evidence. This part of the law isn't concerned with

:54:13. > :54:16.accidents, accidents have always happened and they continued to

:54:17. > :54:21.happen. If he is saying it is an accident. She is saying he took the

:54:22. > :54:25.condom off, we started having sex, it was on, I wanted it to stay on

:54:26. > :54:29.but he took it off when he's said it comes off, that's what happens. The

:54:30. > :54:34.evidence is going to be difficult, as it always is in cases of rape.

:54:35. > :54:36.Yeah. But the quality of the information brought to the Crown

:54:37. > :54:41.Prosecution Service, they will way that up to see what they can

:54:42. > :54:44.possibly prosecute on. The judicial wind, when you look at those limited

:54:45. > :54:47.occasions where the court has discussed this matter is that the

:54:48. > :54:53.court would consider this something that should go in front of a jury.

:54:54. > :54:57.Alexandra, do you think the term stealthing is helpful or a hindrance

:54:58. > :55:03.to campaigners against violence against women? I'll be honest, I

:55:04. > :55:08.don't like it. It is the worst that is used by the people who encourage

:55:09. > :55:11.others to remove condom is without their partner's permission. I can't

:55:12. > :55:16.believe that that is a category of people. But there are whole online

:55:17. > :55:21.communities that promotes this practice. I don't want to give them

:55:22. > :55:26.control. Absolutely. To make this easier. What is the thrill from

:55:27. > :55:32.removing the condom, what is it about? I think it varies but one

:55:33. > :55:39.consistent thread that I saw was that the perpetrators, all of whom,

:55:40. > :55:44.were men, would talk about their natural male right to have sex

:55:45. > :55:46.without a condom. They talked about spreading their seed, about

:55:47. > :55:53.breeding, even when their partners were other men. What do you think of

:55:54. > :56:00.that, Miriam? Like she said, you can't even

:56:01. > :56:08.believe it is a group of people that exists. It is easier to dismiss them

:56:09. > :56:11.as thick, disturbed people. But when you see the threads discussing

:56:12. > :56:17.stealthing, especially on Twitter when I was discussing it with others

:56:18. > :56:20.is that there are all these apologists. A lot of men, always

:56:21. > :56:28.men, who come into these discussions to defend the stealthers. At first

:56:29. > :56:31.you just think these are sick, disturbed people but then you find a

:56:32. > :56:38.lot of other men defending their right to do so or trying to minimise

:56:39. > :56:42.the damages, saying it wasn't actually rape, you can't really call

:56:43. > :56:46.it that, so I think when it comes down to read, it's about a group of

:56:47. > :56:52.men who just feel they have the right to a woman's body. To do with

:56:53. > :56:57.as they wish. In my mind, they are the same people who don't consider

:56:58. > :57:01.it rape if a woman is unconscious or they are the same group of people

:57:02. > :57:05.who don't really consider women to be autonomous people but bodies for

:57:06. > :57:11.their consumption. OK. You talked about getting a test for HIV,

:57:12. > :57:13.presumably you had to wait for other STI results, did you consider going

:57:14. > :57:21.to the police? I did. The man who did this to me, we had

:57:22. > :57:27.exchanged phone numbers earlier in the evening. When he seemed like a

:57:28. > :57:31.nice guy. He kept calling me for weeks after this happened and wanted

:57:32. > :57:36.to meet again. To him, this had just been a nice evening out.

:57:37. > :57:46.With a track record of rape cases in Norway, just this last year, a man

:57:47. > :57:52.was more or less cleared of rape in a Norwegian court because the woman

:57:53. > :57:57.he had raped was a prostitute. So, the court believed he had the

:57:58. > :58:00.rights... He had the right to expect sexual intercourse so when he raped

:58:01. > :58:08.her because he refused to pay and then he raped her, he was acquitted.

:58:09. > :58:16.Knowing what awaits a victim when she reports, there would not be

:58:17. > :58:20.point. Thank you so much, Miriam waived her right to anonymity to

:58:21. > :58:23.talk to us today. Alexandra and Sandra, thank you. Thank you for

:58:24. > :58:28.your company today. On the programme tomorrow,

:58:29. > :58:30.we'll look at claims across university campuses

:58:31. > :58:44.in the UK. Good morning. Another cold day

:58:45. > :58:45.today, northerly