06/06/2017

:00:07. > :00:11.It's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

:00:12. > :00:20.Police defend their decision to downgrade and enquire into one of

:00:21. > :00:24.the three London Bridge terrorists who killed seven people.

:00:25. > :00:27.And as details start to emerge about the victims of the attack,

:00:28. > :00:29.the sister of 32-year-old Londoner James McMullan says

:00:30. > :00:32.she is struggling to come to terms with the fact that her brother may

:00:33. > :00:35.be one of those killed, after his bank card was found

:00:36. > :00:42.While our pain will never diminish, it is important to carry on with our

:00:43. > :00:44.lives, in direct opposition to those that would try to destroy us.

:00:45. > :00:47.With the election just two days away we'll ask what each

:00:48. > :00:52.of the main parties will do to prevent further attacks.

:00:53. > :00:55.With the election campaign back in full swing we have the latest

:00:56. > :00:56.in our series of Election Blind Dates.

:00:57. > :01:00.This time it's the turn of Gina Miller - the woman who took

:01:01. > :01:02.the government to court over Article 50 - and Godfrey Bloom,

:01:03. > :01:04.a former Ukip politician known for his outspoken views.

:01:05. > :01:07.They met over smoked salmon sandwiches to talk Brexit,

:01:08. > :01:17.I don't understand going to these negotiations... Why are we

:01:18. > :01:18.negotiating? Why don't we just leave?

:01:19. > :01:22.So far all our couples have got on but will politics get in the way?

:01:23. > :01:24.We'll bring you the full story just after 09:30.

:01:25. > :01:27.It is now less than 48 hours till voting begins.

:01:28. > :01:29.We've been to the valleys of south Wales - traditionally

:01:30. > :01:32.a Labour stronghold - to find out how Jeremy Corbyn

:01:33. > :01:33.is going down there, or whether other parties

:01:34. > :01:47.are about to cause a political upset.

:01:48. > :01:53.Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning.

:01:54. > :01:56.Also coming up later in the programme, as part of our van

:01:57. > :01:58.share series I take a spin with senior Tory politician

:01:59. > :02:01.He reveals his favourite Coldplay track and how he got

:02:02. > :02:07.Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

:02:08. > :02:10.use the hashtag #VictoriaLIVE and if you text, you will be charged

:02:11. > :02:13.Our top story today, Scotland Yard is facing questions

:02:14. > :02:16.over a decision to downgrade a previous inquiry into one

:02:17. > :02:19.of the three men behind the London Bridge attack.

:02:20. > :02:21.It's been revealed that one of the attackers,

:02:22. > :02:23.Khuram Butt, was investigated by counter-terrorism officers

:02:24. > :02:29.Seven people were killed and dozens injured in

:02:30. > :02:39.As the investigation into Saturday night's attack

:02:40. > :02:42.continues at a fast pace, seven women and five men arrested

:02:43. > :02:44.in Barking on Sunday have been released by police without charge,

:02:45. > :02:50.leaving the focus firmly on the three attackers.

:02:51. > :02:57.27-year-old Khuram Butt was well-known to the police

:02:58. > :02:59.and MI5 as an extremist, though they insist there was nothing

:03:00. > :03:02.to suggest he was planning an attack and downgraded their inquiry

:03:03. > :03:10.The group display the black flag of Islam...

:03:11. > :03:13.He featured in a Channel 4 documentary last year about radical

:03:14. > :03:17.Twice, people in his Barking neighbourhood reported

:03:18. > :03:21.the Pakistani-born father of two to the authorities.

:03:22. > :03:24.In recent years he worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken

:03:25. > :03:28.and was a customer services advisor at Transport for London.

:03:29. > :03:30.Less is known about the second attacker, 30-year-old

:03:31. > :03:32.Rachid Redouane, also from Barking and claimed to be of

:03:33. > :03:43.Police are yet to confirm the identity of the third attacker.

:03:44. > :03:45.Yesterday evening, a vigil took place as Londoners came together

:03:46. > :03:55.Among the victims, 30-year-old Christine Archibald,

:03:56. > :03:58.who had moved to Europe from Canada to be with her fiance.

:03:59. > :04:03.James McMullan's family are struggling to come to terms

:04:04. > :04:06.with the news his bank card was found on a body outside

:04:07. > :04:14.While our pain will never diminish, it is important for us

:04:15. > :04:17.to all carry on with our lives, in direct opposition to those who

:04:18. > :04:25.A minute's silence will be held at 11 o'clock this morning as the UK

:04:26. > :04:31.reflects on a third terror attack in less than three months.

:04:32. > :04:33.In a moment we can speak to our correspondent Tim Muffett

:04:34. > :04:37.But first Nick Quraishi is at the Metropolitan Police Headquarters

:04:38. > :04:45.at New Scotland Yard in Central London.

:04:46. > :04:53.Good morning. Overnight, a property has been raided in Alford, east

:04:54. > :05:01.London, in connection with Saturday's attacks. Nobody has been

:05:02. > :05:04.detained, but we are getting more of these as police get tip-offs of

:05:05. > :05:11.places to search. We understand that Scotland Yard will today named the

:05:12. > :05:16.third attacker involved in these atrocities. We know two them, but

:05:17. > :05:19.the third one will be identified after investigations conclude

:05:20. > :05:32.overseas. The third person, along with the other person named, Rashid

:05:33. > :05:36.Rashid redo an is not known to the authorities, the only one that is is

:05:37. > :05:45.Khuram Butt. It is known he had links to al-Muhajiroun and Anjem

:05:46. > :05:50.Choudary. Concerns were raised about him to an anti-terror hotline, from

:05:51. > :05:58.a mother in Barking concerned that he was radicalising her children.

:05:59. > :06:02.You would think because he was being watched by MI5 and police that he

:06:03. > :06:08.was under automatic surveillance. Scotland Yard are saying that with

:06:09. > :06:17.3000 British jihadi is an 500 live terror plots under investigation, in

:06:18. > :06:22.the Force's words commonly move to the lower echelons of the inquiry.

:06:23. > :06:28.Investigations will focus on how they met. They both lived in

:06:29. > :06:32.Barking. There will also look into whether anybody else was involved.

:06:33. > :06:39.Lets talk to Tim Muffett at London Bridge. There, as elsewhere in the

:06:40. > :06:45.country, we are preparing for a minute's silence to be held this

:06:46. > :06:49.morning? That is right. 11am, a minutes silence at London Bridge.

:06:50. > :06:54.The station is now open on this torrential morning, as you can see.

:06:55. > :06:58.Commuters making their way across the bridge. As you can see, the

:06:59. > :07:04.police cordon is in place. The blue tarpaulin, that is where the van

:07:05. > :07:07.came to an end after it careered across the bridge on Saturday night

:07:08. > :07:13.with deadly effect. Investigation still going on there. Evidence still

:07:14. > :07:24.being gathered. As I say, a sense of normality returning. This group of

:07:25. > :07:29.flowers has grown over the morning. More people coming to pay their

:07:30. > :07:33.respects to those that died on Saturday night. A book of condolence

:07:34. > :07:39.has been opened which will be taken to Southwark Cathedral when that is

:07:40. > :07:46.accessible after the cordon has lifted. Thank you very much. We are

:07:47. > :07:49.going to talk about security and how you stop people from becoming

:07:50. > :07:53.radicalised with representatives of some of the main parties at about

:07:54. > :07:57.9.15. It will be interesting to hear from you, 48 hours before we go to

:07:58. > :08:05.the polls. His security now the number one issue. If not, let me

:08:06. > :08:10.know what is. Send me an e-mail or use the hashtag.

:08:11. > :08:12.Australian police say they're treating a siege at an apartment

:08:13. > :08:15.in the Australian city of Melbourne as a terrorist incident.

:08:16. > :08:18.Police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman

:08:19. > :08:22.Another man was found dead in the foyer.

:08:23. > :08:24.So-called Islamic State has claimed responsibility but authorities say

:08:25. > :08:27.there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a

:08:28. > :08:35.Wounded in the crossfire when the armed police ended a siege

:08:36. > :08:40.carried out in the name of Islamic extremism.

:08:41. > :08:43.29-year-old Yacqub Khayre had a long criminal history.

:08:44. > :08:45.In 2009 he was accused of planning to attack an Australian

:08:46. > :08:53.He'd since been in prison for violent crimes.

:08:54. > :08:55.Last night, he came to this apartment block

:08:56. > :08:59.On the way in, he shot a male apartment worker before

:09:00. > :09:04.He made a call to a local TV station claiming to act for both

:09:05. > :09:11.Islamic state and Al-Qaeda, two rival organisations.

:09:12. > :09:18.The Islamic State's since claimed he was acting for them.

:09:19. > :09:20.We are aware of one line, them having claimed responsibility,

:09:21. > :09:23.but then they always tend to jump up and claim responsibility every

:09:24. > :09:33.The siege ended after Khayre started shooting at the police, who returned

:09:34. > :09:37.Australia's Prime Minister says the attack is part of a growing

:09:38. > :09:40.threat but he also questioned why Khayre had been released

:09:41. > :09:56.He had been charged with a terrorist offence some years ago

:09:57. > :10:06.He was known to have connections, at least in the past,

:10:07. > :10:19.The siege brings back painful memories of 2014's Sydney attack

:10:20. > :10:21.in which two people died after being taken

:10:22. > :10:30.He was on bail and was known to have extremist views.

:10:31. > :10:34.In Melbourne, the police are still trying to piece together

:10:35. > :10:37.how much planning went into this attack and whether there were any

:10:38. > :10:39.warning signs that meant it could have been prevented.

:10:40. > :10:50.The boss of British Airways' parent company says that human error caused

:10:51. > :10:52.last week's IT meltdown that led to travel chaos for

:10:53. > :10:57.Willie Walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply,

:10:58. > :11:00.with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected.

:11:01. > :11:02.He's promised to make the findings of an independent

:11:03. > :11:08.The brother of the Manchester suicide bomber Salman Abedi

:11:09. > :11:11.has been released without charge by police.

:11:12. > :11:14.Ismail Abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day

:11:15. > :11:16.after the attack on the Manchester Arena.

:11:17. > :11:19.18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation.

:11:20. > :11:29.Sales of spirits brought more money into the Treasury than beer

:11:30. > :11:34.Sales of gin - which have surged 12% - helped spirits overtake beer,

:11:35. > :11:36.according to the Wine and Spirit Trade Association.

:11:37. > :11:39.Wine remains at the top of the table bringing in more than four billion

:11:40. > :11:49.That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

:11:50. > :11:53.And tragic news from China and the death of Cheick Tiote.

:11:54. > :11:59.How much do we know about what happened?

:12:00. > :12:06.Good morning. We are still awaiting exact details. What we do know is

:12:07. > :12:09.what has been confirmed by his spokesperson, that he collapsed

:12:10. > :12:14.during training, where he plays for a Chinese team called ageing

:12:15. > :12:19.Enterprise. He was rushed to hospital, where he later died. He

:12:20. > :12:23.was just 30. He moved to the Chinese club in February after seven years

:12:24. > :12:26.at Newcastle United. Premier League fans will be well aware of his

:12:27. > :12:30.strength, his tenacity, his attacking prowess. He will be

:12:31. > :12:34.particularly remembered for this amazing goal he scored against

:12:35. > :12:44.Arsenal in 2011. An extraordinary match, where Newcastle came from 4-

:12:45. > :12:50.zero down and Tiote got the equaliser. That is what he offered.

:12:51. > :12:56.He played in two World Cups with the Ivory Coast. In a statement, Beijing

:12:57. > :12:58.Enterprises praised his outstanding contribution to the club and his

:12:59. > :13:01.huge skills and professionalism. And there's been a huge

:13:02. > :13:10.reaction, hasn't there? He enjoyed some of the best years of

:13:11. > :13:12.his career at his former club, Newcastle. They have led the

:13:13. > :13:19.tributes on social media. Alan Shearer described it as devastating

:13:20. > :13:24.news. Another former Newcastle player, Shay Given, said he was

:13:25. > :13:27.shocked and saddened. Way too young, he said. And his former team-mate

:13:28. > :13:33.and Manchester City player Yaya Toure described him as my brother, I

:13:34. > :13:36.cannot believe you are gone, I will never forget you. Former Newcastle

:13:37. > :13:42.manager Steve McClaren has also paid tribute.

:13:43. > :13:46.Cheick was competitive, he was a warrior and could play.

:13:47. > :13:49.The tempo and intensity of his game and the game that he wanted to play

:13:50. > :13:51.would be ideal for the Premier League

:13:52. > :13:56.That is the kind of player that everybody wants.

:13:57. > :14:12.What is becoming clear how much he was respected and loved on and off

:14:13. > :14:18.the pitch. Security has been stepped up

:14:19. > :14:20.everywhere, following the recent terror attacks, including

:14:21. > :14:22.at sporting venues and Andy Murray was mindful of the fact

:14:23. > :14:28.at the French Open in Paris. He acknowledged the recent attacks

:14:29. > :14:31.in London and Manchester, and the recent terror attacks in Paris. He

:14:32. > :14:39.thanked the crowd for still coming out to support. This is something

:14:40. > :14:45.that has affected a large part of Europe and all over the world.

:14:46. > :14:48.Obviously we want things to keep getting better, and obviously

:14:49. > :14:52.appreciate everybody still coming out to support the tennis, creating

:14:53. > :14:57.a fantastic atmosphere. I am grateful I can come out and perform

:14:58. > :15:08.in front of you. Next in the quarterfinals will be Kei Nishikori.

:15:09. > :15:13.Is security the number one issue for you at this general election? Let me

:15:14. > :15:19.know throughout the morning. 48 hours until you can vote

:15:20. > :15:23.in Britain's general election, and after three men killed seven

:15:24. > :15:25.people on London Bridge and Borough Market

:15:26. > :15:29.on Saturday night, Britain's response to Islamist terrorism has

:15:30. > :15:32.been thrust to the centre We'll talk about this

:15:33. > :15:37.with representatives of various First, here's where Labour

:15:38. > :15:43.and the Conservatives Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn say

:15:44. > :15:50.they are best placed So what is their track record

:15:51. > :15:53.and what would they do? The Conservatives have flagged up

:15:54. > :15:56.Jeremy Corbyn's history of voting Labour have suggested

:15:57. > :16:00.Theresa May has herself voted against anti-terror legislation

:16:01. > :16:05.in the past. Jeremy Corbyn says Theresa May

:16:06. > :16:15.presided over a 19,000 fall in police numbers as Home Secretary,

:16:16. > :16:17.prompting them to back calls for her to resign in the wake

:16:18. > :16:20.of the London Bridge attacks. Mrs May says she has protected

:16:21. > :16:22.counterterror police numbers and that Jeremy Corbyn

:16:23. > :16:25.opposes shoot-to-kill powers. A BBC News Reality Check

:16:26. > :16:30.investigation found police numbers have fallen by around

:16:31. > :16:34.19,000 since 2010. On your watch, the number

:16:35. > :16:38.of armed police officers fell, it is still lower

:16:39. > :16:41.than it was in 2010, the number of officers fell by 20,000,

:16:42. > :16:43.and control orders that monitor Would it not be leadership to say

:16:44. > :16:53.you would reverse those cuts? We have enhanced the powers

:16:54. > :16:56.for the police, we have ensured that the security and intelligence

:16:57. > :16:59.agencies have the powers they need, but it is not just about resource,

:17:00. > :17:03.it is about the powers people have. In a BBC interview in November

:17:04. > :17:06.2015 Jeremy Corbyn said He now says he supports

:17:07. > :17:10.the use of proportionate "I am not happy with shoot-to-kill

:17:11. > :17:23.policy, it is dangerous and can In a defensive position,

:17:24. > :17:31.where security of individuals is at stake, what happened

:17:32. > :17:33.in Westminster, over the weekend, I back a police force

:17:34. > :17:51.that is adequately prepared and able to deal with a terrorist attack such

:17:52. > :17:55.as what we had on Saturday, where they are able to take

:17:56. > :17:57.the necessary action. Here is how their record

:17:58. > :17:59.stacks up on other issues. The Terrorism Act of 2000,

:18:00. > :18:03.introduced by the last Labour Government, was a law that

:18:04. > :18:06.gave a broad definition of terrorism for the first time and gave

:18:07. > :18:09.the police power to detain terrorist Theresa May was absent

:18:10. > :18:12.on the final vote, A measure to allow police up to 14

:18:13. > :18:20.days to question terror suspects. Theresa May voted against it,

:18:21. > :18:25.Jeremy Corbyn voted against it. On ID cards, Theresa May voted

:18:26. > :18:27.against them, Jeremy Corbyn On control orders, which were a form

:18:28. > :18:36.of house arrest for suspects, Theresa May voted against them,

:18:37. > :18:43.Jeremy Corbyn voted against them. In 2011 Theresa May

:18:44. > :18:44.introduced TPims. Mrs May said they would better

:18:45. > :18:50.focused than control orders. She voted for them,

:18:51. > :18:52.Jeremy Corbyn voted against them. Then on the law that allows

:18:53. > :18:58.communications to be intercepted, Theresa May voted for it,

:18:59. > :19:01.Jeremy Corbyn was With three terror attacks in three

:19:02. > :19:04.months, security is suddenly at the top of the election agenda,

:19:05. > :19:07.with both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn accusing each

:19:08. > :19:23.other of being soft on security. Paul says, "Security is just one of

:19:24. > :19:29.my concerns. All our public services have been cut to the core. They all

:19:30. > :19:32.need more money." John says security is essential, but don't lose sight

:19:33. > :19:39.of the state of the country under Tory rule. Don't trust them. Louise

:19:40. > :19:44.says, "The biggest issue is the last chance to safe the NHS." Adam says,

:19:45. > :19:47."Security is important, but social cohesion is important and depends on

:19:48. > :19:51.investment in public services and especially education." Jonathan

:19:52. > :19:54.says, "My concern is that of climate change and protecting the

:19:55. > :19:58.environment. It is alarming that no party other than the Greens have

:19:59. > :20:02.given any mention of this. I'm interested to hear from you. Is

:20:03. > :20:04.security now the number one issue for you ahadded of the election? If

:20:05. > :20:08.it is not, let me know what it is. Let's talk now to Oliver Dowden,

:20:09. > :20:11.who was Deputy Chief of Staff to David Cameron when he was Prime

:20:12. > :20:13.Minister. He's the Conservative

:20:14. > :20:14.candidate for Hertsmere. Richard Burgon's been

:20:15. > :20:17.Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary. Lord Brian Paddick speaks

:20:18. > :20:21.for the Lib Dems on security He's a former Deputy

:20:22. > :20:23.Assistant Commissioner David Kurten is from Ukip he's

:20:24. > :20:27.a candidate for Castle Point. And Drew Hendry is standing

:20:28. > :20:46.for the SNP in Inverness, Nairn, We can talk about prison sentences

:20:47. > :20:49.or the vile videos you can access on YouTube or more anti-terror

:20:50. > :20:53.legislation or police numbers, none of those areas addresses this, that

:20:54. > :20:57.already young men living in Britain who are prepared to kill others and

:20:58. > :21:00.then themselves. How would you stop people like that from becoming

:21:01. > :21:06.radicalised. I will start with you David? This is the case. How would

:21:07. > :21:10.you do it? Well, you say the police numbers is a non issue. It is an

:21:11. > :21:14.issue. 20,000 police have been cut. We know where we're going to get the

:21:15. > :21:19.money from to reput the 20,000 police in place. How would that stop

:21:20. > :21:23.young men from being radicalised. Community policing is where you

:21:24. > :21:25.gather intelligence and you build relationships with people in

:21:26. > :21:30.communities where this is happening. 20,000 have been cut. The police has

:21:31. > :21:35.become very, very good at rapid response, at reacting to crisis and

:21:36. > :21:39.we saw the heroism this weekend, but when there is no community policing

:21:40. > :21:42.or that's been cut then there is a gap in building relationships with

:21:43. > :21:50.these communities and trying to stop things at the grass-roots so we need

:21:51. > :21:56.to make that happen as well. OK. We had more police officers before 7/7

:21:57. > :22:00.and three men were radicalised? This time there has been three terrorist

:22:01. > :22:05.attacks in three months and have got through the net. Before we had ten

:22:06. > :22:08.years without one. That's after there were cuts in community

:22:09. > :22:13.policing. What would the Leles do? We need to review and replace the

:22:14. > :22:18.current Prevent programme. A lot of people in the Muslim community are

:22:19. > :22:24.suspicious of it. We need a much more community based approach where

:22:25. > :22:27.mainstream Muslims can put out a counter narrative to this poisonous,

:22:28. > :22:32.what is a political ideology. It is not, it is a vited lnt political

:22:33. > :22:35.ideology, it is not a religion. There is a powerful counter

:22:36. > :22:39.narrative that can be put out there and we need to make sure we support

:22:40. > :22:43.those communities. In terms of numbers, we know that security

:22:44. > :22:49.officials are looking at 3,000 persons of interest. There are at

:22:50. > :22:54.any one moment, 500 live investigations and there are 23,000

:22:55. > :22:58.potential Jihadis so replacing Prevent would stop those people from

:22:59. > :23:01.becoming radicalised It's one piece of the jigsaw. Obviously community

:23:02. > :23:05.policing is another very important idea. We heard an interview with one

:23:06. > :23:09.of the neighbours of one of the people involved at the weekend where

:23:10. > :23:13.he said, you know, this guy, he was being over friendly to me during the

:23:14. > :23:17.day on Saturday. If there is better community policing, where there is

:23:18. > :23:21.somebody that that person trusts, pass that information immediately

:23:22. > :23:25.and that's why Liberal Democrats are pledging 60% more cash than Labour

:23:26. > :23:32.in terms of it boosted community policing. OK. Oliver, a Conservative

:23:33. > :23:35.candidate, I have not yet met a Conservative representative who

:23:36. > :23:40.acknowledges that a cut of 20,000 police officers has an impact on

:23:41. > :23:44.neighbourhood policing and that has an impact on building trust in

:23:45. > :23:50.communities and therefore, local intelligence gathering. Are you

:23:51. > :23:53.going to acknowledge that link? If you look at what Lord Carlile said,

:23:54. > :23:57.a former reviewer of counter-terrorism, he said that

:23:58. > :24:02.police resources is not an issue in relation to counter-terrorism. And

:24:03. > :24:07.what about... I agree with that. What about police officers

:24:08. > :24:11.themselves? The Police Federation? Her imagine steed's Inspectorate of

:24:12. > :24:14.Constabulary who have all expressed concern about neighbourhood

:24:15. > :24:18.policing? Well, actually if you look at the record now, we are protecting

:24:19. > :24:25.the police budget going forward... No. No. We are cre cuting more armed

:24:26. > :24:30.police officers. So you're not going to acknowledge the link that others

:24:31. > :24:34.say are relevant. Lord Carlile said it is not a relevant consideration

:24:35. > :24:38.in relation to tackling terrorism. Now, there is a debate about police

:24:39. > :24:42.numbers and community policing, but in terms of its impact on attacks

:24:43. > :24:49.like this, he is saying this is not an issue. Let's bring in Labour's

:24:50. > :24:53.candidate. Are you saying that if we had the same numbers of police

:24:54. > :24:57.officers that we had in 2010 Richard, that Manchester or London

:24:58. > :25:02.wouldn't have happened? Well, first of all, I'd say that the

:25:03. > :25:05.responsibility for those atrocities lies with the terrorist murderers

:25:06. > :25:09.who carried them out. In terms of the question you're asking, the

:25:10. > :25:13.chain of causation isn't so simple to say if this hadn't of happened,

:25:14. > :25:19.then these atrocities wouldn't have happened. But when we look at it on

:25:20. > :25:22.a common sense basis as Sadiq Khan said on the television today cuts in

:25:23. > :25:26.police of 20,000, including while Theresa May was Home Secretary

:25:27. > :25:29.doesn't make us more safe, it makes us less safe from everything from

:25:30. > :25:35.low level anti-social behaviour through to acts of extreme violence.

:25:36. > :25:40.OK. Drew from the SNP, how would you stop young men living in Britain

:25:41. > :25:46.from becomingks tremists, Jihadis and wanting to blow up their fellow

:25:47. > :25:49.citizens Well, these events in Manchester and London are shocking

:25:50. > :25:53.brutal acts of krill national terror and I think it's very important that

:25:54. > :25:57.we remember those people and victim who have been affected by this and

:25:58. > :26:03.their families just now. But this is a time to respond rather than react

:26:04. > :26:06.to the events. We have to make sure that we're looking carefully at what

:26:07. > :26:11.has caused this and how we take things forward. So I think knee-jerk

:26:12. > :26:18.reactions are not the way to go. I'm not asking for knee-jerk reactions.

:26:19. > :26:22.I'm wondering if there has been any intellectual thinking from within

:26:23. > :26:30.the SNP as to how to stop young men being radicalised in Great Britain?

:26:31. > :26:33.Nobody has any answers. One of the ways we can help to prevent the

:26:34. > :26:36.insidious message of those people who want to radicalise young people

:26:37. > :26:40.getting through is to create stronger communities. And make sure

:26:41. > :26:44.that those communities are actually more resistant to the messages that

:26:45. > :26:48.these people like to perpetrate. And that happens by working with young

:26:49. > :26:54.people, by making sure that there is early intervention as there is in

:26:55. > :26:56.Scotland, in schools, we have been discussing this through the

:26:57. > :27:00.Curriculum for Excellence and opening up people's minds to enable

:27:01. > :27:05.them to challenge some of the dogma that actually comes through from the

:27:06. > :27:13.radical organisations. And is that working? Tile will tell. Obviously,

:27:14. > :27:17.as I said, nobody has all the answers, the most effective way to

:27:18. > :27:21.combat the aim of terrorism which to interrupt the rights of people, our

:27:22. > :27:25.civil liberties and of course, the right of law, is actually to show

:27:26. > :27:30.that their message isn't working and those fantastic images in Manchester

:27:31. > :27:33.of the police dancing, you know, with the revellers there, I think

:27:34. > :27:39.are images that actually show that the community response is often most

:27:40. > :27:45.effective. Let me ask all of you about Khuram Butt, one of the three

:27:46. > :27:48.London Bridge attackers. Reaction to the fact that MI5 investigated him

:27:49. > :27:52.two years ago and found there was no evidence of preparing a plot,

:27:53. > :27:56.planning a plot, no evidence of conspiracy to commit acts of

:27:57. > :28:00.terrorism. So therefore, they downgraded their scrutiny of hill.

:28:01. > :28:04.What would you do with someone like that who is clearly a radical

:28:05. > :28:09.because we all saw him on TV a year ago, what do we do with someone like

:28:10. > :28:16.that when there is no evidence? Our leader Paul Nuttall said that

:28:17. > :28:21.Islamism is a cabser. It -- cancer. It has got so bigment we're told

:28:22. > :28:26.there is 23,000 potential Jihadis. What would you do? We have got to

:28:27. > :28:31.have a multi-facetted approach. We have got to stop Jihadis coming into

:28:32. > :28:35.the country who have been abroad and fighting for Islamic State. This guy

:28:36. > :28:38.is a British citizen. He has been given British citizenship. So you

:28:39. > :28:48.wouldn't have had him in the country in the first place? Someone like

:28:49. > :28:51.that who has dual citizenship. Let's deal with the fact that he was

:28:52. > :28:56.investigated and there was no evidence. What would you do then? We

:28:57. > :29:01.need to look at funding of mosques and anyone who is connected... What

:29:02. > :29:05.would you do? With someone like him who has dual citizenship, he has

:29:06. > :29:09.citizenship in Pakistan as well, you can strip people of their

:29:10. > :29:16.citizenship if they have dual citizenship, if they are connected.

:29:17. > :29:20.We need to do that. Oliver, with that individual in particular, what

:29:21. > :29:26.in the future, what should we do with someone like that? From my time

:29:27. > :29:30.working in Downing Street I know the challenges facing MI5. They can't be

:29:31. > :29:35.surveying every single person. But they did look at him. There was no

:29:36. > :29:41.evidence so they downgrade their scrutiny of him. Is that the right

:29:42. > :29:45.thing to do? It has to be based on the intelligence they have. You

:29:46. > :29:51.wouldn't put him under curfew with an electronic tag? In terms of the

:29:52. > :29:54.top category, those are people who are being actively being followed

:29:55. > :29:57.all the time. You need to look at the powers the Security Services and

:29:58. > :30:02.the courts have to deal with these people. Now, you mentioned TPims,

:30:03. > :30:08.that's one way. It is important that we look at the legislative base to

:30:09. > :30:11.see if there are other measures to control the movement, to control

:30:12. > :30:16.their ability to for example get access to vehicles, you know, look

:30:17. > :30:21.at how they plan this and see if there are other powers we need to

:30:22. > :30:23.control their movement, short of active constant surveillance and

:30:24. > :30:26.putting them in prison and that's what the Home Secretary and the

:30:27. > :30:33.Prime Minister have been talking about. Brian, what would you...

:30:34. > :30:40.You mentioned TPIMs, you can put them under curfew, electronically

:30:41. > :30:48.tag them, you can move them away from where they are at the moment.

:30:49. > :30:53.Isis was a proscribed organisation when Butt was filmed with an Isis

:30:54. > :30:57.flag. There was evidence to arrest him for a criminal offence at that

:30:58. > :31:01.time. We are saying that the legislation is there, the powers are

:31:02. > :31:05.there. We have to look very carefully at why they are not being

:31:06. > :31:09.used more effectively. There was some suggestion it was not on Isis

:31:10. > :31:17.flag. But to any sensible person, who was clearly a radical. Carry any

:31:18. > :31:22.article in public that arouses reasonable suspicion that an

:31:23. > :31:24.individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation.

:31:25. > :31:27.Anybody looking at that but it would think they were a supporter of Isis

:31:28. > :31:31.and should have been arrested. Richard, what would you have done

:31:32. > :31:37.with that man? First of all, I would like to start by saying that the

:31:38. > :31:40.security services need to need to be congratulated all of the terrorist

:31:41. > :31:48.plots they have foiled. No security can guarantee that every plot by a

:31:49. > :31:53.terrorist murderous lunatic can be stopped. But it is disturbing to

:31:54. > :31:59.hear that this individual, this murderer, was so far on the path to

:32:00. > :32:03.radicalisation. What would Labour have done? We need to look into the

:32:04. > :32:06.specifics of what happened, what the security services knew, what the

:32:07. > :32:12.police knew and what could have been done. The wider point I would make,

:32:13. > :32:15.in relation to the murderer from Manchester, is that it very much

:32:16. > :32:21.disturbs me that it appears that the murderer from Manchester, the

:32:22. > :32:28.terrorist and Manchester, had been to Libya to fight against the regime

:32:29. > :32:31.there, seemingly welcomed back, given the green light to come back.

:32:32. > :32:35.I think we have to be very careful that we did not have a government

:32:36. > :32:39.that pursues the doctrine that our enemy's enemy is our friend. If we

:32:40. > :32:42.do, there can be unintended, dangerous consequences for the

:32:43. > :32:46.British people. He would have stopped him coming back, even though

:32:47. > :32:51.he was fighting Colonel Gadaffi, which was British policy at the

:32:52. > :32:57.time? I think the pursuit of the policy, just because some people are

:32:58. > :33:02.enemies of the enemy of our government, that we should not look

:33:03. > :33:06.into them properly or presume that they are not extremist, is very

:33:07. > :33:13.dangerous. Drew Hendry, what would you do with the individual Khuram

:33:14. > :33:20.Butt? We saw in London that when the pleas have resources we are able to

:33:21. > :33:24.respond in a... We are talking about stopping them in the first place? I

:33:25. > :33:27.am going on to make a point. If you know about somebody and the police

:33:28. > :33:31.and security services have the resources to look into that

:33:32. > :33:36.individual and make sure they are monitored, that'll be affected.

:33:37. > :33:38.Playtime when police numbers have been going down dramatically in

:33:39. > :33:45.England and Scotland, they have been rising over same period. It is vital

:33:46. > :33:49.that those people are given the resources to do the job, to make

:33:50. > :33:54.sure that these people are watched and they can respond when required.

:33:55. > :34:00.OK, thank you all very much. Here is an e-mail, saying we need new

:34:01. > :34:06.approaches, much greater engagement with Muslim communities. A programme

:34:07. > :34:15.of the radicalisation of medium to long-term relation, closing down of

:34:16. > :34:20.Muslim TV channels in foreign languages, deportation to be looked

:34:21. > :34:26.at. Security has been a issue for me for some time. Do keep those coming

:34:27. > :34:29.in, where ever you are. Thank you for your time and your

:34:30. > :34:30.contributions. If you want to get in touch, you are very welcome. You can

:34:31. > :34:34.e-mail or message on the hashtag. And don't miss the final

:34:35. > :34:36.debate of the election Tina Daheley hosts the Newsbeat

:34:37. > :34:40.youth debate with an audience of 18-to-25-year-olds in Manchester,

:34:41. > :34:41.featuring senior politicians It starts at 8.30 pm on Radio 1,

:34:42. > :34:49.the Asian Network and BBC News Channel and then at

:34:50. > :35:04.10.40pm on BBC One. Gina Miller, the woman who took on

:35:05. > :35:10.the Government over Article 50 and won, will she meets her match when

:35:11. > :35:12.she meets Ukip politician Godfrey Bloom on an election Blind date?

:35:13. > :35:15.It is now less than two days until voting begins.

:35:16. > :35:18.In the latest in our series of election films from across the UK,

:35:19. > :35:21.we take you to the valleys of South Wales to find out

:35:22. > :35:25.Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:35:26. > :35:27.The Metropolitan Police is facing questions over a decision

:35:28. > :35:30.to downgrade a previous inquiry into one of the three men behind

:35:31. > :35:33.It has been revealed that one of the attackers,

:35:34. > :35:35.Khuram Butt, was investigated by counter-terrorism officers

:35:36. > :35:40.Seven people were killed and dozens injured in

:35:41. > :35:46.Australian police say they're treating a siege at an apartment

:35:47. > :35:49.in the Australian city of Melbourne as a "terrorist incident".

:35:50. > :35:52.Police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman

:35:53. > :35:58.Another man was found dead in the foyer.

:35:59. > :36:00.So-called Islamic State has claimed responsibility but authorities say

:36:01. > :36:03.there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a

:36:04. > :36:08.The boss of British Airways' parent company says that human error caused

:36:09. > :36:10.last week's IT meltdown that led to travel chaos for

:36:11. > :36:15.Willie Walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply,

:36:16. > :36:18.with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected.

:36:19. > :36:20.He's promised to make the findings of an independent

:36:21. > :36:29.The brother of the Manchester suicide bomber Salman Abedi

:36:30. > :36:32.has been released without charge by police.

:36:33. > :36:34.Ismail Abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day

:36:35. > :36:36.after the attack on the Manchester Arena.

:36:37. > :36:39.18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation.

:36:40. > :36:54.The former Newcastle manager Steve McClaren leads

:36:55. > :36:57.tributes to Cheick Tiote, who's died at the age of just 30,

:36:58. > :37:03.McClaren said he was tough - but also had the most

:37:04. > :37:11.Andy Murray thanks the French Open crowd for continuing to turn out,

:37:12. > :37:13.despite the recent terror attacks - he's through to the quarter-finals,

:37:14. > :37:19.British Cycling's board of directors are set to be replaced

:37:20. > :37:21.after the governing body called an emergency meeting next

:37:22. > :37:24.A long awaited report into British Cycling's culture

:37:25. > :37:32.And Sir Ben Ainslie's America's Cup challenge has faltered.

:37:33. > :37:34.He and his crew are 2-0 down against New Zealand

:37:35. > :37:45.That is all the sport for now, I will be back at ten o'clock.

:37:46. > :37:47.The attack on Saturday caused a temporary pause

:37:48. > :37:50.in the election campaign, but the campaign is back on and so

:37:51. > :37:56.This time it's the turn of Gina Miller - the woman who took

:37:57. > :37:58.the Government to court over Article 50 and won -

:37:59. > :38:02.a former Ukip politician known for making controversial remarks -

:38:03. > :38:06.Two weeks ago, before the events in London and Manchester,

:38:07. > :38:08.they met over smoked salmon sandwiches to talk Brexit,

:38:09. > :38:24.There is an election on and people are talking politics.

:38:25. > :38:27.So what happens when you send two people with opposing

:38:28. > :38:35.I'm like, oh, my God, this has been so long, literally.

:38:36. > :38:40.You see people that are sat there that can go and work

:38:41. > :38:42.and choose not to, they choose to go and sign on.

:38:43. > :38:48.You look gloriously distinguished and slightly hunky.

:38:49. > :39:01.When people stand at the despatch box and tell me there's

:39:02. > :39:03.more money in education, I look around and wonder where it's

:39:04. > :39:08.gone because it's not in my children's school.

:39:09. > :39:24.I think if anybody were going on a date

:39:25. > :39:27.with me and I was the host, I and my guests don't

:39:28. > :39:29.get to the dining room because we never leave the bar.

:39:30. > :39:37.I'm Godfrey Bloom, I was a founder member of Ukip but it isn't for me.

:39:38. > :39:40.Every time I see Mrs May on the television, my pen hesitates

:39:41. > :39:48.She's a rather typical vicar's daughter.

:39:49. > :39:50.I'm sure she's very good at running church fetes

:39:51. > :39:53.but as to running a country, I rather suspect it's

:39:54. > :39:58.The sort of date I would hope this is not is somebody who really has

:39:59. > :40:02.I'm Gina Miller, I took the Government to court.

:40:03. > :40:05.My voting history's been for Labour because it's all about Brexit.

:40:06. > :40:11.Being on a date with me is normally a roller coaster because I'm a very

:40:12. > :40:14.unpredictable, risk-taking sort of person.

:40:15. > :40:17.No guesses who I'm about to meet, that was kept very quiet from me.

:40:18. > :40:20.There isn't a single politician I agree with so it

:40:21. > :40:56.Do you think that we've given already this early

:40:57. > :41:00.in the Brexit negotiations, more away than we should have done?

:41:01. > :41:02.I don't understand the inflexible way we are going

:41:03. > :41:15.Why negotiate something, why don't we just leave?

:41:16. > :41:20.When I left my club, my London club, I wrote a very nice letter and said

:41:21. > :41:23.it was marvellous goodbye and they said oh dear,

:41:24. > :41:29.The question I asked was, when we leave, what happens next?

:41:30. > :41:30.What happens next is that we just trade.

:41:31. > :41:32.It's not that simple though, they've already said

:41:33. > :41:39.Let's go through the list you've just said because EU membership

:41:40. > :41:42.is more than what you can get out, it's more about

:41:43. > :41:49.It's a political project, isn't it, let's be clear, which has been

:41:50. > :41:59.They just voted for it, they don't want it.

:42:00. > :42:01.Well, do people know what they voted for?

:42:02. > :42:04.Is this the next thing we are rolling out, people

:42:05. > :42:07.are stupid and don't understand what they voted for,

:42:08. > :42:12.I've been hearing a lot of this, we are all a bit stupid.

:42:13. > :42:15.If it's so stupid, why was the biggest search on Google

:42:16. > :42:23.That was the biggest search by millions above anything

:42:24. > :42:31.Ask the people, did you know what you voted for, did

:42:32. > :42:34.They said no, we thought we voted because we could

:42:35. > :42:49.There are some opinions saying there isn't a bill to pay.

:42:50. > :42:56.What happens in the limbo interim if we just leave?

:42:57. > :42:58.Look, what's going to happen with these people and,

:42:59. > :43:00.believe me I've had a lot of experience with these people,

:43:01. > :43:06.they'll string out the negotiations, fudge it and come up with Brexit

:43:07. > :43:09.lite which isn't what the people voted for.

:43:10. > :43:11.People across political parties voted to leave and leave we must

:43:12. > :43:26.I was on the trail the October before the actual vote and I went

:43:27. > :43:34.There was huge anger against the EU and there was shouting,

:43:35. > :43:37.when we leave there won't be any immigration and none of you will be

:43:38. > :43:41.And I said, but it's EU immigration that's

:43:42. > :43:46.going to stop when we leave the EU, not immigration.

:43:47. > :43:49.I think the point that people didn't understand and I'm

:43:50. > :43:51.totally with you on this, more than 50% of immigration is not

:43:52. > :43:54.coming from the EU anyway and Theresa May had plenty of time

:43:55. > :44:00.to deal with the when she was at the Home Office and she didn't.

:44:01. > :44:03.Our control at the borders is not great.

:44:04. > :44:10.We know that immigration is good in parts, like the curates say,

:44:11. > :44:20.But we don't need some people who are coming,

:44:21. > :44:22.camping in the parks, you know, pooing in the bushes,

:44:23. > :44:27.One of the reasons I got slightly disenchanted with Ukip in the past

:44:28. > :44:30.is this inability to make this distinction between good immigration

:44:31. > :44:45.Well, one of the reasons I left Ukip and sat as an independent

:44:46. > :44:48.They had a lot of very loyal foot soldiers,

:44:49. > :44:51.deeply patriotic, very nice people, but they had no strategy.

:44:52. > :44:53.Post-Brexit what have we got in the shop window,

:44:54. > :44:57.I used to say, after Brexit, win or lose.

:44:58. > :45:03.Or is the party going to disappear in a puff of smoke?

:45:04. > :45:15.Everybody's now saying Paul Nuttall isn't a good leader

:45:16. > :45:19.You can't fatten the pig on market day, as we say.

:45:20. > :45:25.You can't fatten the pig on market day.

:45:26. > :45:29.This whole Brexit thing and the experience I've been

:45:30. > :45:33.through has brought up the idea, you know, was racism always

:45:34. > :45:36.here or have we entered a different place in society in Britain now?

:45:37. > :45:38.But social media has created a platform where there's

:45:39. > :45:56.I think people need to be much quicker in reacting.

:45:57. > :46:00.For better or for worse, I'm very new to the social media thing.

:46:01. > :46:04.If it's noisy, it's the lavatory wall very often,

:46:05. > :46:08.but generally speaking, it isn't particularly reflective.

:46:09. > :46:12.If someone can take out for example, a Facebook page, which says

:46:13. > :46:16.Gina Miller is a traitor, should be beheaded, I'm offering

:46:17. > :46:19.?5,000 for someone to do that and then I've got hundreds

:46:20. > :46:21.of thousands of people signing up or following or retweeting that

:46:22. > :46:27.individual, that's taking us to a different place.

:46:28. > :46:33.When I went into politics, all of a sudden, no form of abuse

:46:34. > :46:40.Fascist, misogynist, bigot, I've been called the lot.

:46:41. > :46:43.As soon as I've put my head above the parapet, you've

:46:44. > :46:46.put your head above the parapet, welcome to my world I've been

:46:47. > :46:49.You can't normalise these behaviours.

:46:50. > :46:53.You're in a dodgy position if you don't mind me suggesting it

:46:54. > :46:58.because you are heavily involved in this process of Brexit

:46:59. > :47:16.Wherever you live, go wherever you live and say vote for me.

:47:17. > :47:18.I never knew that politics wasn't the business of everyone.

:47:19. > :47:21.I thought we all had a responsibility to speak up and had

:47:22. > :47:26.Politics is not something that happens to me, politics is something

:47:27. > :47:28.that affects every single part of my life, my children's life

:47:29. > :47:33.So I have every right to stand up and say what I believe.

:47:34. > :47:35.I didn't say you had the right to do it.

:47:36. > :47:37.No, no, no, I don't have to be a politician.

:47:38. > :47:40.As a an individual citizen, I have a civic duty

:47:41. > :47:43.You would lose some of the stick I think

:47:44. > :47:53.What I found in the last 18 months and I knew it was in the City

:47:54. > :47:56.but it's much more widespread than I thought, is this idea that,

:47:57. > :48:00.as a woman, I can't be clever enough to have thought of this case or come

:48:01. > :48:03.up with this case on my own, it must be lots of very

:48:04. > :48:07.influential rich men behind me pulling my strings and I find this

:48:08. > :48:15.whole idea that I'm now being painted as a feminist quite

:48:16. > :48:16.an interesting one because I'm actually an equalist.

:48:17. > :48:19.I don't believe there should be one above the other.

:48:20. > :48:21.Diversity is about all sorts of things, not just gender.

:48:22. > :48:24.Well, it's a label because it saves anybody doing any research.

:48:25. > :48:27.When I said no small businessman would employ a woman

:48:28. > :48:30.of child-bearing age, on the end of it, I said under

:48:31. > :48:33.the Draconian regulations, employment legislation that we now

:48:34. > :48:36.have, the number of business women that wrote to me about that and said

:48:37. > :48:43.you're absolutely right, I will not employ a woman

:48:44. > :48:48.I can't afford in a four or five-man business to lose a woman

:48:49. > :48:51.for a year on maternity leave, I don't believe in quotas,

:48:52. > :48:53.I believe if a free society, we can come to an arrangement

:48:54. > :48:58.Not quotas, quotas are a disaster, they always have been.

:48:59. > :49:04.We won't go there with the Prime Minister but...

:49:05. > :49:21.Oh, my gosh, I'm so disappointed to hear that.

:49:22. > :49:25.I won't be voting Labour because I actually think the two

:49:26. > :49:27.leaders we have are not fit for purpose.

:49:28. > :49:41.Just for this election, vote local, not national.

:49:42. > :49:44.It's a bit like, don't take any notice of the Rosette,

:49:45. > :49:49.take notice of the candidate, what have they got to say.

:49:50. > :49:55.I think it's only fair that we split the bill.

:49:56. > :49:58.Look, I'm an old age pensioner, you're a London investment banker,

:49:59. > :50:01.there's only one person here that should be paying the bill.

:50:02. > :50:03.The retired people have got everything these days,

:50:04. > :50:05.so I think it's you that should be paying!

:50:06. > :50:11.Well, it's always the same when you meet the foe

:50:12. > :50:14.There's so much more common ground than you ever imagined

:50:15. > :50:21.What's really positive is that we can disagree and agree,

:50:22. > :50:30.What did you make of each other before you met?

:50:31. > :50:37.I thought Gina was a nosey Parker because Brexit is my personal domain

:50:38. > :50:45.and nobody else is allowed to poke their nose in,

:50:46. > :50:48.but she's won me round to a fairly, don't agree with her, but she's

:50:49. > :50:51.Again, I understand the caretakers, if you like, of Brexit

:50:52. > :50:54.and the passions have been there for very many years even

:50:55. > :50:57.before I came to the UK, but I just think it's healthy

:50:58. > :51:02.that we move on together and talk about where we go to next.

:51:03. > :51:06.And possibly ruin the entire programme.

:51:07. > :51:20.You can catch up on the whole election blind date series

:51:21. > :51:26.And tomorrow, in our last edition, the SNP's Tommy Sheppard,

:51:27. > :51:33.who founded The Stand comedy club, meets Ayesha Hazarika,

:51:34. > :51:35.former political advisor to Ed Miliband, who has since become

:51:36. > :51:38.When the conversation turned to the question

:51:39. > :51:41.of Scottish independence, neither of them were laughing!

:51:42. > :51:49.I think the plea from people is just can we just move off the obsession

:51:50. > :51:53.about the referendum for a while? You're obsessed. Nicola Sturgeon is

:51:54. > :51:56.like the Beyonce of Scottish politics. She is a woman obsessed

:51:57. > :52:01.with her independence. That's tomorrow.

:52:02. > :52:04.We've been bringing you a series of films from across the UK over

:52:05. > :52:11.The constituency of Torfaen in South Wales

:52:12. > :52:13.has been solidly Labour for the last 99 years.

:52:14. > :52:15.It also voted decisively to leave the European Union

:52:16. > :52:19.So how is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party going down

:52:20. > :52:21.in the Welsh valleys ahead of the vote on Thursday?

:52:22. > :52:25.Our reporter Jim Reed has has been finding out.

:52:26. > :52:28.There are loads of food banks everywhere.

:52:29. > :52:31.Seven years I ain't bothered because I don't

:52:32. > :52:38.But this year I was borderline but I'm Labour again now.

:52:39. > :52:46.I voted Theresa May, Conservative all the way.

:52:47. > :52:55.Large tangerines now, come and get 'em...

:52:56. > :52:58.So this is Pontypool in South Wales, there are two reasons

:52:59. > :53:01.The first is it's market day so there's plenty

:53:02. > :53:09.The second is this is heartland Labour territory.

:53:10. > :53:11.This constituency's been Labour for 99 years.

:53:12. > :53:14.We want to see how that core vote is holding up just days

:53:15. > :53:17.Two punnets of blueberries and blackberries all for ?3...

:53:18. > :53:22.It will take you 30 seconds, we are from BBC News,

:53:23. > :53:24.doing some filming ahead of the election.

:53:25. > :53:26.I think Theresa May is not good at all.

:53:27. > :53:36.I think Labour is going to win this year.

:53:37. > :53:42.Why do you think Theresa May's not done well, how does she come across?

:53:43. > :53:44.I think a lot of people don't trust her.

:53:45. > :53:53.Over the decades though, that old Labour vote here has been

:53:54. > :53:56.chipped away by the Tories, but Ukip, by the Welsh

:53:57. > :54:03.I voted who I always vote for and it will never change over the years.

:54:04. > :54:09.Who for, if you don't mind me asking?

:54:10. > :54:13.Well, I think the Welsh government can do more

:54:14. > :54:16.for the Welsh than the English have been doing for us,

:54:17. > :54:20.It's not fair, it's always Labour or Conservative.

:54:21. > :54:23.Why can't we have Plaid Cymru or somebody else in there?

:54:24. > :54:34.Exactly, let somebody else have a chance to screw it up.

:54:35. > :54:36.It's lunch time at the Conservative Club in the town centre.

:54:37. > :54:42.Not much love for Jeremy Corbyn here.

:54:43. > :54:45.Is it fair to say you are not big fans of Jeremy Corbyn?

:54:46. > :54:59.Labour until a couple of year ago, she voted to leave the EU and is now

:55:00. > :55:02.That's not gone down well with her son Jason,

:55:03. > :55:07.If you were going to try to convince your mum to vote Labour,

:55:08. > :55:16.Well, if you look at the manifesto and stuff like that,

:55:17. > :55:19.it is built for working class people.

:55:20. > :55:24.They say that but they don't deliver.

:55:25. > :55:30.They still don't help the working class people, Jas.

:55:31. > :55:32.Now you've got Jeremy Corbyn who wants to start nationalising

:55:33. > :55:39.You know, the voters and everybody are going to lose out again

:55:40. > :55:42.because he wants to go back to that and the cost is going

:55:43. > :55:56.But I reckon in the long run, not the long run but the short-term,

:55:57. > :56:00.I can remember the Conservatives coming in, oh, donkeys years ago,

:56:01. > :56:02.and everybody was really sceptical but they done well.

:56:03. > :56:06.Except for the coal mining strike and stuff like that which was bad

:56:07. > :56:08.because my brother was one, that's why he's going

:56:09. > :56:13.They're both going to kill me, but then again everybody's got

:56:14. > :56:21.A short drive up the valley is Glynarthen, once home to 20,000

:56:22. > :56:26.The pit here is now a museum and the town a World Heritage Site.

:56:27. > :56:31.Why isn't anybody behind him pushing him up...

:56:32. > :56:33.Nothing says Labour like the town's new Mayor.

:56:34. > :56:36.Phyllis Roberts was elected last month at the age of 93 after three

:56:37. > :56:43.Have you ever thought about voting for anyone else?

:56:44. > :56:48.No, I couldn't. I wouldn't.

:56:49. > :56:52.Because I've never found that the Conservative Party have

:56:53. > :56:58.ever given any consideration to miners and the mining valleys.

:56:59. > :57:03.That's why nearly all mining valleys are loyal to the Labour Party.

:57:04. > :57:08.Maybe it's creeping in a little bit now, I wouldn't say there's 100%

:57:09. > :57:13.loyalty no like there used to be years ago.

:57:14. > :57:21.Phyllis was a strong supporter of Tony Blair and wasn't convinced

:57:22. > :57:23.by Jeremy Corbyn when he became Labour Leader, but says

:57:24. > :57:28.this election campaign has brought her round.

:57:29. > :57:32.I was hoping in the beginning that he'd have enough gumption to resign

:57:33. > :57:34.before it got too close to the election.

:57:35. > :57:46.But now when I hear his speeches now, I'm more than happy with him.

:57:47. > :57:48.Perhaps he didn't have all the confidence to put it

:57:49. > :58:02.In the very south of the constituency is Cwmbran,

:58:03. > :58:06.built in 1949, as part of the post-war new towns projects.

:58:07. > :58:09.It's now a bustling place full of chain stores

:58:10. > :58:17.We've had to put an extra office there...

:58:18. > :58:22.On one of the industrial estates on the edge of town,

:58:23. > :58:24.we are shown around by Geoff Nicholas.

:58:25. > :58:28.A life long Labour voter until he joined Ukip.

:58:29. > :58:31.He worked on the production line here making alarm systems.

:58:32. > :58:35.Is Brexit the most important issue for you still?

:58:36. > :58:39.We can move on to other policies, other demographic issues,

:58:40. > :58:51.And do you trust the Government to get that right?

:58:52. > :58:55.I'm more in favour of Theresa May than Jeremy Corbyn, but I'm

:58:56. > :58:59.So the whole strong and stable mantra?

:59:00. > :59:03.I don't buy it. I don't buy it.

:59:04. > :59:05.And I don't think a lot of other people buy it,

:59:06. > :59:07.thing's why she's slipping in the polls.

:59:08. > :59:10.60% in this constituency voted to leave the EU last year.

:59:11. > :59:19.gloomy about the possible benefits of Brexit.

:59:20. > :59:22.To your mind, leaving the EU doesn't necessarily lead to the catastrophic

:59:23. > :59:29.Absolutely not. I'm optimistic.

:59:30. > :59:32.There was a time about four years ago when I could have lost my job

:59:33. > :59:43.We passed that barrier, and then we had the Brexit vote

:59:44. > :59:45.and now the order book has gone through the roof.

:59:46. > :59:48.Speak to workers outside the factories here though and it's

:59:49. > :59:50.clear many come not from the Welsh valleys, but countries

:59:51. > :59:53.Is there lots of people from Lithuania?

:59:54. > :59:57.I think so. I'm the only Lithuanian.

:59:58. > :59:58.A lot of Hungary people working here.

:59:59. > :00:09.Back where we started at the indoor market in Pontypool,

:00:10. > :00:13.there's a sense this election is far from decided.

:00:14. > :00:17.With days to go, some still haven't made up their minds.

:00:18. > :00:20.Which way do you think then? You just don't know?

:00:21. > :00:27.Others after much thought are turning back to what they know best.

:00:28. > :00:30.Seven years I haven't bothered because I don't agree with none

:00:31. > :00:36.But this year I was borderline, but I'm Labour again now.

:00:37. > :00:41.Would it be the first time that you two are thinking about a vote

:00:42. > :00:44.for the Conservatives and Theresa May?

:00:45. > :00:51.How would your dad feel about you considering a Conservative vote?

:00:52. > :01:13.Jerame Reid reporting. He is ever so polite. Latest news and sport on the

:01:14. > :01:18.way, let's bring you the weather first.

:01:19. > :01:24.Rain is very much a feature of the weather. You can see the brighter

:01:25. > :01:28.colours, where persistent rain has been going from Scotland, down the

:01:29. > :01:32.spine of the country. It is pushing eastwards. It will take its time to

:01:33. > :01:35.push from the east coast. Behind it, sunshine and showers blowing through

:01:36. > :01:42.quickly on the strong wind, to Tringale for some places. A cool

:01:43. > :01:45.feeling day, particularly in the wind and rain. Temperature is not

:01:46. > :01:50.much higher than 15 or 16 Celsius. Through this evening, showers

:01:51. > :01:53.rattling through, the rain becoming more confined to north-east England

:01:54. > :01:57.and eastern parts of Scotland. Elsewhere, showers will fade and it

:01:58. > :02:00.will become Adryan night. Still windy at times, temperatures

:02:01. > :02:04.typically between nine and 11 Celsius. A better day for many

:02:05. > :02:08.tomorrow. Still rain lingering across Scotland. Eventually it will

:02:09. > :02:12.pull away. Much of the country dry, with spells of sunshine for a good

:02:13. > :02:14.chunk of the day. With lighter wind and a bit more sunshine tomorrow, it

:02:15. > :02:21.should feel a touch warmer. Hello, it's Tuesday it's ten

:02:22. > :02:23.o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. As the Met Police is forced

:02:24. > :02:26.to defend a decision to downgrade an inquiry into one of the men

:02:27. > :02:29.who carried out Saturday night's terror attack,

:02:30. > :02:39.politicians tell us how We need to look into the specifics

:02:40. > :02:43.of what happened, what the security services knew, what the police knew

:02:44. > :02:48.and what could have been done. It's important that we look at the

:02:49. > :02:51.legislative base to see if there are the measures to control the movement

:02:52. > :02:52.of people like this, to control their ability to get access to

:02:53. > :02:56.vehicles. We'll have the latest

:02:57. > :03:03.on the investigation. People across the country are

:03:04. > :03:06.preparing to remember the victims with a minute's silence at 11am.

:03:07. > :03:11.Andrew Mitchell gets a ride with me in an electric white van.

:03:12. > :03:13.He talks drugs, how he got the nickname Thrasher

:03:14. > :03:28.Well... I'm not good on names. Producing it? I am certainly not

:03:29. > :03:30.going to do that. -- could you seeing it.

:03:31. > :03:32.Our latest election date pitched Brexit remainer Gina Miller

:03:33. > :03:36.against leave campaigner Godfrey Bloom.

:03:37. > :03:41.I don't understand the inflexible way we are going towards the

:03:42. > :03:42.negotiations. Why are we negotiating? Why don't we just

:03:43. > :03:44.leave? and the others in our

:03:45. > :03:54.series on bbc.co.uk/victoria. Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom

:03:55. > :03:57.with a summary of today's news. The Metropolitan Police is facing

:03:58. > :03:59.questions over a decision to downgrade a previous inquiry

:04:00. > :04:02.into one of the three men behind Its been revealed that

:04:03. > :04:05.one of the attackers, Khuram Butt, was investigated

:04:06. > :04:07.by counter-terrorism officers Seven people were killed and dozens

:04:08. > :04:11.injured in the incident Australian police say they're

:04:12. > :04:22.treating a siege at an apartment in the Australian city of Melbourne

:04:23. > :04:28.as a "terrorist incident". Police shot and killed a lone gunman

:04:29. > :04:31.who had been holding a woman Another man was found

:04:32. > :04:34.dead in the foyer. So-called Islamic State has claimed

:04:35. > :04:36.responsibility but authorities say there's no evidence so far

:04:37. > :04:39.to suggest it was a The boss of British Airways' parent

:04:40. > :04:44.company says that human error caused last week's IT meltdown that led

:04:45. > :04:47.to travel chaos for Willie Walsh said an engineer

:04:48. > :04:51.disconnected a power supply, with the major damage caused

:04:52. > :04:54.by a surge when it was reconnected. He's promised to make

:04:55. > :04:56.the findings of an independent The brother of the Manchester

:04:57. > :05:05.suicide bomber Salman Abedi has been released without

:05:06. > :05:06.charge by police. Ismail Abedi, who's 23,

:05:07. > :05:09.was detained in the city the day after the attack on the Manchester

:05:10. > :05:14.Arena. 18 people have so far been detained

:05:15. > :05:17.as part of the investigation. West Midlands Police

:05:18. > :05:21.are exhuming several graves in a cemetery in Dudley

:05:22. > :05:23.as part of an investigation into the disappearance of a teenager

:05:24. > :05:27.14 years ago. Natalie Putt was 17 and had an 11

:05:28. > :05:31.month old son when she went missing. The decision to exhume the graves

:05:32. > :05:34.follows a new review of the case. An 18-year-old man was arrested

:05:35. > :05:37.on suspicion of murder in 2004 A bright light, believed to be

:05:38. > :05:45.a fireball or meteor, The footage was recorded by a beach

:05:46. > :05:51.camera in Dawlish on Friday night. Dr Robert Massey, from

:05:52. > :05:53.the Royal Astronomical Society, said it was almost certainly

:05:54. > :05:55.a fireball, which is a very bright meteor burning up

:05:56. > :06:01.in the Earth's atmosphere. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:06:02. > :06:04.News - more at 10.30am The cause of death of former

:06:05. > :06:10.Newcastle player Cheick Tiote, is still being investigated,

:06:11. > :06:12.according to Chinese Tiote collapsed in training

:06:13. > :06:19.with his new team, He enjoyed some of the best years

:06:20. > :06:25.of his career at Newcastle, where he played for seven years,

:06:26. > :06:28.only moving to China in February. His former manager Steve McLaren

:06:29. > :06:31.has led the tributes, saying he was the toughest player

:06:32. > :06:47.he'd ever seen. He was combative, he was just a

:06:48. > :06:50.warrior and he could play. The tempo, the intensity of his game and

:06:51. > :06:54.the game that he wanted to play, I said it would be ideal for the

:06:55. > :06:57.Premier League, and so it proved. That is the kind of player that

:06:58. > :07:01.everybody wants in their team. He was a winner all the way through.

:07:02. > :07:03.Andy Murray thanked the crowd for turning out to watch

:07:04. > :07:06.the action at the French Open, in spite of the recent

:07:07. > :07:09.Murray reached the quarter-finals with a straight-sets win over

:07:10. > :07:13.He'll play Kei Nishikori next - but his thoughts were

:07:14. > :07:28.This is something that has affected large parts of Europe and all over

:07:29. > :07:32.the world. Obviously we want things to keep getting better and obviously

:07:33. > :07:36.appreciate everybody still coming out to support the tennis, creating

:07:37. > :07:42.a fantastic atmosphere. I'm grateful I can come out and perform in front

:07:43. > :07:45.of you. England have been put into bat by New Zealand in their

:07:46. > :07:46.Champions Trophy match in Cardiff victory would give them a place in

:07:47. > :07:48.the semifinals. England captain Eoin Morgan

:07:49. > :07:50.says his players are confident of making it through,

:07:51. > :07:59.against a side he thinks They have brought a huge amount of

:08:00. > :08:04.entertainment and excitement to the 50 over game. That has probably been

:08:05. > :08:07.lacking for a long time. In 2015, during the World Cup, they really

:08:08. > :08:11.captured the imagination of the New Zealand public. It is fantastic to

:08:12. > :08:18.see. They are strong contenders in this competition. They played very

:08:19. > :08:19.good cricket. Certainly, they are a side that will contend in this

:08:20. > :08:20.tournament. British Cycling have called

:08:21. > :08:22.an emergency meeting next month to vote on reforms -

:08:23. > :08:24.and the entire board of directors All the current members will have

:08:25. > :08:28.to reapply for their jobs, with a report due next week

:08:29. > :08:30.on the investigation into the culture at British Cycling,

:08:31. > :08:32.following accusations Chris Froome is just over a minute

:08:33. > :08:40.off the lead after two stages of the Criterium du

:08:41. > :08:42.Dauphine in France. He finished safely in the peleton

:08:43. > :08:45.on what was a day for the sprinters into Arlanc,

:08:46. > :08:47.with Frenchman Arnaud Demare Froome should make his move later

:08:48. > :08:53.in the week, in the climbing Sir Ben Ainslie's Land Rover

:08:54. > :08:59.BAR team are struggling in the America's Cup challenger

:09:00. > :09:04.semi-finals in Bermuda. They're 2-0 down to New Zealand

:09:05. > :09:07.after damaging a wing in the first race and being forced

:09:08. > :09:09.to forfeit the second. That is all the sport for now. Back

:09:10. > :09:27.to you now. I have been asking you this morning

:09:28. > :09:30.if security is the number one issue for you in the general election

:09:31. > :09:34.campaign with 48 hours to go until the polls opened. This e-mail from

:09:35. > :09:38.Andrew, it is not about security, that would be dealt with by any

:09:39. > :09:41.residing government. It is still about Brexit and who is best

:09:42. > :09:44.positioned to fight for the UK's future. The hollow and worthless

:09:45. > :09:51.manifesto promises should be ignored. This Tweet says security is

:09:52. > :09:56.major, but we should focus on the impact of inadequate social cohesion

:09:57. > :10:07.due to the disempowerment of parents and teachers. Debra said you ask if

:10:08. > :10:13.the number one issue is security, I say yes, and I voted for Bracks is

:10:14. > :10:16.on the issue of security alone. It is the priority to allow freedom and

:10:17. > :10:21.democracy in our country. Stephen says he does not think security

:10:22. > :10:26.should be the reason to choose. All the parties will do the best they

:10:27. > :10:30.can. I struggled to decide between the two main ones, probably because

:10:31. > :10:34.of a lack of trust. I've decided I cannot vote for a Prime Minister in

:10:35. > :10:38.favour of fox hunting. I am not yet decided whether to vote Labour or

:10:39. > :10:42.green. It is a shame we have first past the post in this country. Keep

:10:43. > :10:46.them coming in. Let's bring you the very latest on the London attacks.

:10:47. > :10:49.Criticism of the Metropolitan Police, for their decision to

:10:50. > :10:55.downgrade the inquiry into one of the men that carried out the

:10:56. > :11:01.attacks. In a moment, we will speak to Norman Smith in Westminster.

:11:02. > :11:05.First, let's talk to Daniel Sandford outside New Scotland Yard in central

:11:06. > :11:09.London. What is the latest? A very wet New Scotland Yard this morning.

:11:10. > :11:16.There was an extra raid overnight in Ilford, in the early hours of this

:11:17. > :11:18.morning. Nobody arrested there. That was a search, essentially,

:11:19. > :11:27.overnight. Also overnight, all of the remaining ten people that were

:11:28. > :11:31.arrested have been released. We are back to a situation where the only

:11:32. > :11:34.three suspects concern any attacks on Saturday night in which seven

:11:35. > :11:39.people were killed are the three men that were shot dead on the spot by

:11:40. > :11:42.armed officers. There may be further arrests down the line, but at this

:11:43. > :11:48.stage nobody is in custody being questioned by police in relation to

:11:49. > :11:51.those attacks. Big, big questions this morning for the police and

:11:52. > :12:02.security service, MI5. They had investigated Khuram Butt in 2015,

:12:03. > :12:06.and he was still a subject of interest for them at that point.

:12:07. > :12:09.Because there was no evidence of any attack planning, he had been

:12:10. > :12:13.downgraded in terms of the amount of resources that had been put into

:12:14. > :12:17.that investigation. And, of course, it turned out he was planning an

:12:18. > :12:21.attack, however short term the planning was, and that is a

:12:22. > :12:22.difficult problem for the security service and the Metropolitan Police

:12:23. > :12:31.in terms of their reputation. Thank you very much. Let's talk to

:12:32. > :12:34.Norman in Westminster. This row about police cuts, the number of

:12:35. > :12:40.police officers we have in this country is not going away, is it?

:12:41. > :12:44.It's not. That some discomfort to Theresa May. Clearly, she wants to

:12:45. > :12:48.try to the political agenda in the last days of this campaign back on

:12:49. > :12:53.to Brexit. She sort of snagged on this issue of police numbers. I

:12:54. > :12:56.think that is in part because it is a very simple, easy thought for

:12:57. > :13:01.people to get their heads around. That police numbers have been

:13:02. > :13:05.significantly cut between 2010 and 2015. It is not accommodated issue

:13:06. > :13:09.like an Kvitova social care. Also, it is one that is personal to

:13:10. > :13:13.Theresa May. She was Home Secretary, she was the person that presided

:13:14. > :13:17.over the cuts in police numbers. The other thing that struck me in the

:13:18. > :13:24.response that we have heard from Theresa May and senior ministers,

:13:25. > :13:26.there is a reluctance to even concede that the numbers were cut

:13:27. > :13:30.over those five years. I think that many voters probably feel a bit

:13:31. > :13:34.exasperated, annoyed about that refusal to concede. For journalists,

:13:35. > :13:38.it means we keep picking away and picking away. It is not going away

:13:39. > :13:45.because, never mind the criticism from Jeremy Corbyn, this morning we

:13:46. > :13:48.had the Labour Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, really raising the

:13:49. > :13:52.stakes and saying policing in London had not just been cut over the past

:13:53. > :13:57.five years, it was set to continue to be cut over the next four years,

:13:58. > :14:04.suggesting something that between 3000 and 12,000 police officers may

:14:05. > :14:09.have to go. That would be between ten to back a 10% and 40% of the

:14:10. > :14:12.total force. That is a huge number. He says, inevitably, that will make

:14:13. > :14:20.it harder to guard against future terror acts. Listen to him. Under a

:14:21. > :14:23.renewed Theresa May government, as a consequence to the cuts to the

:14:24. > :14:27.policing budget, we will have fewer police officers. All of the experts

:14:28. > :14:30.tell me that one of the ways we counter terrorism is by fantastic

:14:31. > :14:35.police in the community. Members of the community, of all backgrounds,

:14:36. > :14:39.report intelligence to police officers in the community. They pass

:14:40. > :14:43.it on. It helps keep us safe. There is no doubt that fewer police

:14:44. > :14:50.officers means we are in more danger. A fairly stark warning from

:14:51. > :14:54.the Mayor. Boris Johnson this morning disputing that. Boris

:14:55. > :14:59.Johnson, Sadiq Khan's predecessor, saying if he wanted to have more

:15:00. > :15:02.police officers he could raise the money himself. Also saying that the

:15:03. > :15:07.police budget has actually been protected, they say, and that there

:15:08. > :15:10.are more armoured police now and that the counterterrorism budget has

:15:11. > :15:16.been increased. This is what Mr Johnson said. We think about

:15:17. > :15:22.policing, we don't take the focus of responsibility from the people that

:15:23. > :15:26.did it, from the terrorists. When Jeremy Corbyn says it is all a

:15:27. > :15:30.function of police numbers, I have to say I think that is wrong. Police

:15:31. > :15:40.numbers in London have remained high. Secondly, we protected police

:15:41. > :15:44.budgets in 2015 and the Labour Party, as I recall, wanted to cut

:15:45. > :15:48.them by 10%. But all that argument detracts from the responsibility of

:15:49. > :15:50.these scumbags, what they have done, and we should not allow that to

:15:51. > :15:58.happen. Many of us at Westminster were

:15:59. > :16:02.expecting this argument over police numbers to kick off this morning

:16:03. > :16:06.when Home Secretary Amber Rudd was going to be up against Diane Abbott

:16:07. > :16:11.and that was shed how old to get underway at 9am. We were told Diane

:16:12. > :16:14.Abbott wouldn't be turning up. Now, apparently she is not feeling too

:16:15. > :16:18.well. Emily Thornbury was sent in her place. It is not the first time

:16:19. > :16:21.that Diane Abbott was not been feeling well at key moments. You

:16:22. > :16:24.remember there was that Brexit vote in the Commons and she couldn't take

:16:25. > :16:29.part because she wasn't feeling well. Cynics suspect that maybe some

:16:30. > :16:30.in Labour circles thought Emily Thornbury would be a safer pair of

:16:31. > :16:37.hands. Thank you very much, Norman. The latest we have on those

:16:38. > :16:39.who were injured - and this comes from NHS England -

:16:40. > :16:42.36 injured remain in hospital and 18 of these are still

:16:43. > :16:46.in a critical condition. One of the people still missing

:16:47. > :16:49.after the attack at London Bridge Her aunt Tara spoke to reporters

:16:50. > :17:07.outside the family home in Brisbane. My name is Tara. I'm Sara's aunt joy

:17:08. > :17:14.and joy's sister. I just wanted to say that we are obviously very upset

:17:15. > :17:21.and emotionally distraught at this time. The family is trying to keep

:17:22. > :17:26.it together, but bracing for the worst obviously. At this stage we

:17:27. > :17:31.have been advised that if you want any further information you need to

:17:32. > :17:38.go to the appropriate representatives to get any further

:17:39. > :17:42.information, but we're just, we're just literally bracing for the worst

:17:43. > :17:47.at this this stage and we really appreciate if everybody is able to

:17:48. > :17:53.respect the family's, Sara is absolutely beautiful. She is the

:17:54. > :17:57.girl next door. She is a very special, kind dread spirit. She is

:17:58. > :18:00.one of those people that don't drink, doesn't do drugs and doesn't

:18:01. > :18:06.do anything wrong. She is amazing and she is 21 years of age.

:18:07. > :18:11.So upsetting. With two terrorist attacks

:18:12. > :18:14.in the space of two weeks and the threat level

:18:15. > :18:18.still at severe, there's a feeling With so many people having

:18:19. > :18:23.witnessed or been affected by the atrocities in some way,

:18:24. > :18:26.how prepared is the NHS when it comes to helping people

:18:27. > :18:27.experiencing trauma? Mental health services

:18:28. > :18:29.are already under strain, with waiting lists of months

:18:30. > :18:31.for talking therapies Experts say many survivors

:18:32. > :18:34.and eyewitnesses of terror may only start to see symptoms

:18:35. > :18:36.of their trauma in weeks Let's talk to Mark Castle,

:18:37. > :18:41.the Chief Executive of Victim Action, the support

:18:42. > :18:44.service being recommended to survivors of the London Bridge

:18:45. > :18:47.and Manchester attacks. Victim Action have said in the past

:18:48. > :18:50.that witnesses of terror attacks can "fall through the gaps

:18:51. > :18:53.in the support system". Dr Steve Mowle is from the Royal

:18:54. > :18:55.College of General Practioners He's expecting to see

:18:56. > :18:59.some of the survivors from the London Bridge attack

:19:00. > :19:01.in the coming months. He swam out to sea to escape bullets

:19:02. > :19:11.in the Tunisia attack in 2015. He and wife Chris are on their first

:19:12. > :19:16.holiday since it happened. Colin says the UK "isn't ready"

:19:17. > :19:19.for the trauma support needed Shanie Ryan was in the second

:19:20. > :19:27.carriage away when Germaine Lindsay detonated his bomb in the 7th July

:19:28. > :19:38.bombings in 2005. The president of the Royal College

:19:39. > :19:41.of Psychiatrists is here. Thank you all of you for coming on the

:19:42. > :19:44.programme. We will have a big conversation about how prepared we

:19:45. > :19:48.are for the kind of help people need when they've experienced a terror

:19:49. > :19:53.attack. Colin, tell us, first of all, thank you for talking to us

:19:54. > :19:56.since your first holiday. Tell us why you think the British healthcare

:19:57. > :20:00.system is so unprepared for the aftermath of what happened in London

:20:01. > :20:06.at the weekend and Manchester two weeks ago. Well, firstly I'd like to

:20:07. > :20:10.say anybody that's been involved in any terrorist incident and if they

:20:11. > :20:13.hear or see anything on the news, it brings them back to the moment. It

:20:14. > :20:18.just brings everybody back from their time of anxiety and stress. It

:20:19. > :20:22.just brings it all back and I must just point out to everybody, you

:20:23. > :20:25.know, even though we're coming up to the two year anniversary, you know,

:20:26. > :20:28.there is still people suffering out there and we did find that

:20:29. > :20:33.unfortunately it was lacking in services for the survivors. But I

:20:34. > :20:36.think, I'm right in saying, Colin, when you first got back from

:20:37. > :20:42.Tunisia, you thought you would be OK, didn't you? Well, I did. I will

:20:43. > :20:48.be honest with you. It is just probably a man thing you think you

:20:49. > :20:51.will get on with it. I stopped smoking for seven years and straight

:20:52. > :20:55.after the incident I picked up another cigarette. I have been back

:20:56. > :20:58.for a couple of weeks and I have been seeing a counsellor and I

:20:59. > :21:03.mentioned about tightness in my chest. I thought it was about

:21:04. > :21:12.smoking and I didn't think it was anything related and he explained to

:21:13. > :21:17.me it was anxiety. Right. Shany, the support provided to you after 7/7,

:21:18. > :21:24.was it good enough? It was entirely absent. It took the, you know, real

:21:25. > :21:28.attention of my family to say there is a problem here, you know, I was

:21:29. > :21:32.obsessed with the thus. I was very depressed. I didn't have a talking

:21:33. > :21:37.volume, everything was shouting and snapping at people. And it was my

:21:38. > :21:42.mum that eventually was right, I'm taking you to the doctor's, you're

:21:43. > :21:47.not yourself. She put a media ban on my house for a month to kind of

:21:48. > :21:52.break the cycle of being updated on what the latest was news wise and

:21:53. > :21:57.when I did go to my GP, my GP was fantastic. However, she did as much

:21:58. > :22:01.as she could. After that, it's a waiting list and gu on a waiting

:22:02. > :22:04.list with everyone else that has any kind of potential mental health

:22:05. > :22:09.problems and that waiting list can be six months long and then when you

:22:10. > :22:16.do get help, it's not somebody that is specialist in dealing with

:22:17. > :22:19.post-traumatic stress disorder. You could get any form of standard

:22:20. > :22:23.counselling, it may not be specific to the needs of somebody that's

:22:24. > :22:27.experienced what us survivors have experienced. So, in my instance my

:22:28. > :22:33.counsellor was the wrong person for me. She was a lot, lot older. I was

:22:34. > :22:38.only 20 at the time. She was using references like the war which was

:22:39. > :22:42.kind of untangible to me at that age and you know, comparing me to a

:22:43. > :22:46.soldier that had experienced certain things and at the time, you know, I

:22:47. > :22:51.didn't quite recognise what that had to do with me. OK, now, in hindsight

:22:52. > :22:56.probably the closest people to survivors would be, you know, our

:22:57. > :23:00.armed forces that have been to Afghanistan they may have been and

:23:01. > :23:04.come back experiencing PDST, but that didn't make any sense to me and

:23:05. > :23:07.I left after three sessions because I kept leaving my sessions more

:23:08. > :23:13.frustrated than I did going in. Sure. As a GP, Steve, you will

:23:14. > :23:16.undoubtedly be seeing, not just survivors necessarily of what

:23:17. > :23:22.happened at London Bridge and Borough Market at the weekend, but

:23:23. > :23:26.relativesks people who were in the vicinity, people who weren't caught

:23:27. > :23:31.up in the immediate violence, but who feel they managed to escape. I

:23:32. > :23:35.mean, the ripple effect is wide, is it not? It is and it could affect

:23:36. > :23:39.hundreds of people. One single event and certainly this was in a very

:23:40. > :23:44.public area. Many hundreds of people were there. I think a very important

:23:45. > :23:47.point you made was that actually, it can take weeks or months before you

:23:48. > :23:52.have any symptoms at all as well and it's really about not being fearful

:23:53. > :23:56.of approving your GP, sounding out your GP what's going on and for them

:23:57. > :24:01.to McAn assessment really of what sort of help they need. Even if they

:24:02. > :24:05.come up with the correct assessment, the help won't be available

:24:06. > :24:10.immediately? That's difficult in some parts of the country and the

:24:11. > :24:16.provision of specialist post-traumatic stress disorder

:24:17. > :24:18.support can be patchy in places, but generally speaking psychological

:24:19. > :24:21.therapy services have improved greatly over the years and I think

:24:22. > :24:24.if we can prioritise and help make sure that our patients get to the

:24:25. > :24:28.right place, then we'll certainly be doing our part and then the

:24:29. > :24:34.secondary services need to pick up there. Simon, will most people be

:24:35. > :24:37.OK? Well, it depends whatter with' talking about, most people. If we're

:24:38. > :24:41.talking about most people in the city, the aeb is yes. Most people

:24:42. > :24:46.are feeling anxious and concerned, but when we studied the populations

:24:47. > :24:50.involved in the London bombs and all sorts, there haven't about a few

:24:51. > :24:55.now, most people get better using their own resources, 90% of people

:24:56. > :24:59.talk to friends and colleagues, they don't talk to people like me. Those

:25:00. > :25:04.that are directly involved, obviously are a much higher risk

:25:05. > :25:08.clearly and even then we do know also still most people will get

:25:09. > :25:11.better. Some of the early interventions we've done in the past

:25:12. > :25:15.have not helped at all, but I think that things are different since 2005

:25:16. > :25:20.and I know that doesn't help you in the slightest, but there has been a

:25:21. > :25:23.big, big investment in improving access to psychological therapies.

:25:24. > :25:27.But there are still waiting lists. There are still waiting lists. There

:25:28. > :25:31.has been a huge investment and it is something we've done well in this

:25:32. > :25:38.country and I do think people now would be seen much quicker than you

:25:39. > :25:45.were Shaney. We both ran into the studio together. So we're

:25:46. > :25:50.breathless. Can I ask about those who weren't directly, who aren't

:25:51. > :25:54.directly affected, who aren't Shaney and who aren't Colin, they might

:25:55. > :25:59.find they are anxious or hyper vigilant or super sensitive. Is that

:26:00. > :26:05.a problem? Do we need to worry less about them? We find that, we're here

:26:06. > :26:12.for anyone at any time who has been a victim of trifle and we would ask

:26:13. > :26:16.them if they feel any symptoms at all, anxiety, hyper vigilance to

:26:17. > :26:21.call our support line number. What we will do at our support line is we

:26:22. > :26:24.will either offer them emotional trauma support, we have trauma

:26:25. > :26:30.trained counsellors who are there, give them information about what

:26:31. > :26:33.they might need to move on to, what they might be suffering at the

:26:34. > :26:38.moment or just practical support. The sort of things we have been

:26:39. > :26:43.doing for Manchester victims now, accommodation or about transport or

:26:44. > :26:46.so on. What I would say is, anyone who is experiencing anything should

:26:47. > :26:49.feel that they can get in touch and the important thing is this idea of

:26:50. > :26:52.having a single point of contact because once they're there and

:26:53. > :26:57.they've contacted that point, we can then help them on that journey

:26:58. > :27:03.because the pathway can be long for some people. Colin talked about the

:27:04. > :27:06.idea of something triggering and it suddenly coming back and Shaney

:27:07. > :27:09.talked about the same thing, so the idea that you can come back at that

:27:10. > :27:13.point is really important. That didn't happen with me. I came back

:27:14. > :27:19.for counselling after eight years when I then felt ready in myself and

:27:20. > :27:23.I then recognised I still had PDST symptoms. I have very bad memory now

:27:24. > :27:27.which I now understand comes from the fact when you have experienced

:27:28. > :27:30.trauma you can actually experience memory loss to take away what you

:27:31. > :27:35.went through, but that can also wipe out a tonne of other memories before

:27:36. > :27:37.that occasion and it was only when I started recognising other symptoms

:27:38. > :27:40.coming forward that I went back and again I went to the back of the

:27:41. > :27:45.waiting listment I waited again before I got seen. I had 12 sessions

:27:46. > :27:48.and when my councillor suggested another 12 because he was no longer

:27:49. > :27:51.going to be working in that area, he was moving, he said to be honest, I

:27:52. > :27:57.think you're going to end up back again at the beginning. That's not

:27:58. > :28:01.good enough. Colin is nodding in agreement with much of what you're

:28:02. > :28:04.saying Shaney. Colin, from your experience, what would you like to

:28:05. > :28:07.see happen by those affected by the London Bridge and Manchester

:28:08. > :28:12.attacks? Definitely the response to be quicker. It was mentioned earlier

:28:13. > :28:16.on when I first, my wife first visited someone that they thought it

:28:17. > :28:19.was probably a year to 18 months that MDST, the signs would come

:28:20. > :28:24.through. I would disagree with that. I would say anyone that's showing

:28:25. > :28:28.any signs of being anxious, to just get on the net and try and find some

:28:29. > :28:31.support groups, people that have been through it just to pick up and

:28:32. > :28:35.speak to people that have been through it. Unfortunately, the

:28:36. > :28:39.medical assistance is lacking. There is no doubt about it. I'm not

:28:40. > :28:45.blaming anybody at all. The NHS is at full stretch, but there will be,

:28:46. > :28:52.the fall-out, you know, with the group, the survivors I'm with and

:28:53. > :28:56.with the 7/7 guys and with the other previous victims, there is no

:28:57. > :29:00.central location and we have Victim Support and a few other support

:29:01. > :29:03.groups that are self funded, they need to get more funding and with us

:29:04. > :29:11.leaving the EU a lot of the funding does come from the EU.

:29:12. > :29:17.It is natural to feel anxious and hyper vigilant after these events

:29:18. > :29:20.and actually, down the line if it becomes abnormal, pathological,

:29:21. > :29:23.that's when you need to come and see a GP. Can I just encourage people

:29:24. > :29:28.who have been affected by Manchester or London Bridge to phone our

:29:29. > :29:31.support line. We do need to remember, we are talking about

:29:32. > :29:36.victims and Shaney and Colin, there are six million people in the city.

:29:37. > :29:40.Most are not victims. Most do not need people like me, professional

:29:41. > :29:44.support, people are more resilient than we give them credit for and we

:29:45. > :29:48.mead to concentrate our resources on the people we have been talking to

:29:49. > :29:59.today and do better to be quicker where we have things to to do help.

:30:00. > :30:05.Do you have the number? 08081689111. Thank you. Shany, thank you for

:30:06. > :30:16.talking to us. Shaney, we appreciate your time. And Mark Castle.

:30:17. > :30:20.Anyone from Manchester, the young girls in particular, if they would

:30:21. > :30:23.like my personal help, I would love to be there for you. I know exactly

:30:24. > :30:27.what you are going through, and I think that is really important. That

:30:28. > :30:33.current survivors help future survivors. Are you on Twitter? Yes,

:30:34. > :30:40.please reach out if you need me, I am here.

:30:41. > :30:51.Still to come, Conservative MP Andrew Mitchell talks drugs, how he

:30:52. > :30:52.got the nickname Thrasher and his favourite Coldplay track.

:30:53. > :30:56.Also this hour, politicians have been calling for measures

:30:57. > :30:58.to regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremist material.

:30:59. > :31:01.We'll be speaking to an Internet Safety Expert to find

:31:02. > :31:05.out how people become radicalised online.

:31:06. > :31:10.Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:31:11. > :31:12.The Metropolitan Police is facing questions over a decision

:31:13. > :31:14.to downgrade a previous inquiry into one of the three men behind

:31:15. > :31:18.It's been revealed that one of the attackers,

:31:19. > :31:20.Khuram Butt, was investigated by counter-terrorism officers

:31:21. > :31:26.Seven people were killed and dozens injured in the incident

:31:27. > :31:32.Australian police say they're treating a siege at an apartment

:31:33. > :31:34.in the Australian city of Melbourne as a "terrorist incident".

:31:35. > :31:37.Police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman

:31:38. > :31:41.Another man was found dead in the foyer.

:31:42. > :31:43.So-called Islamic State has claimed responsibility but authorities say

:31:44. > :31:46.there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a

:31:47. > :31:54.The boss of British Airways' parent company says that human error caused

:31:55. > :31:57.last week's IT meltdown that led to travel chaos for

:31:58. > :32:00.Willie Walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply,

:32:01. > :32:03.with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected.

:32:04. > :32:05.He's promised to make the findings of an independent

:32:06. > :32:18.The brother of the Manchester suicide bomber Salman Abedi

:32:19. > :32:19.has been released without charge by police.

:32:20. > :32:22.Ismail Abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day

:32:23. > :32:24.after the attack on the Manchester Arena.

:32:25. > :32:27.18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation.

:32:28. > :32:40.That's the latest news, join me for BBC newsroom live from 11.

:32:41. > :32:44.Play is just getting under way in England's Champions Trophy match

:32:45. > :32:49.England have been put into bat - and victory would give them a place

:32:50. > :32:52.The cause of death of former Newcastle midfielder Cheick Tiote

:32:53. > :32:55.is still being investigated by his new club in Beijing.

:32:56. > :32:57.He collapsed during training and died later in hospital.

:32:58. > :33:10.Andy Murray thanked the French Open crowd for continuing to turn out,

:33:11. > :33:13.despite the recent terror attacks - he's through to the quarter-finals,

:33:14. > :33:16.British Cycling's board of directors are set to be replaced

:33:17. > :33:18.after the governing body called an emergency meeting next

:33:19. > :33:22.A long awaited report into British Cycling's culture

:33:23. > :33:31.And Sir Ben Ainslie's America's Cup challenge has faltered -

:33:32. > :33:33.he and his crew are 2-0 down against New Zealand

:33:34. > :33:35.in the semi-final series - first to five wins it.

:33:36. > :33:40.A former Conservative cabinet minister has told this programme

:33:41. > :33:43.he wants to return to a top job and believes Britain should

:33:44. > :33:48.Andrew Mitchell - who resigned from the government after swearing

:33:49. > :33:51.at Downing Street police officers when they refused to let him out

:33:52. > :33:54.via the main gates - was speaking to me as part

:33:55. > :33:55.of our Vic's Van Share interviews, recorded

:33:56. > :34:00.In it he reveals how he got the nickname Thrasher,

:34:01. > :34:03.his brush with drugs at university and his favourite Coldplay song.

:34:04. > :34:34.Let's begin with your Government's record.

:34:35. > :34:37.What is the national debt at the moment?

:34:38. > :34:42.I cannot give you the figures, but I can tell you what the deficit is.

:34:43. > :34:45.I don't want to know what the deficit is yet.

:34:46. > :34:47.The national debt is very high, about 1.5 trillion,

:34:48. > :34:57.What was was it when the Conservatives came in in 2010?

:34:58. > :35:06.But that shows how difficult it is to bring down the debt.

:35:07. > :35:09.You have a Conservative Party which is committed to fiscal

:35:10. > :35:11.responsibility, and getting the deficit down and getting

:35:12. > :35:13.the debt down, and even with the very heavy restraints,

:35:14. > :35:15.the austerity that many people complain about,

:35:16. > :35:17.we have still seen debt rising and the deficit coming

:35:18. > :35:24.Are you shocked that a Conservative Government

:35:25. > :35:28.has added ?700 billion to the country's debt pile?

:35:29. > :35:36.Do you think if it was another party would be really shocked

:35:37. > :35:43.It would be much worse today if it was another party.

:35:44. > :35:45.What reassures the markets that the Conservatives have got

:35:46. > :35:48.a grip on this is that the deficit is coming down, but the fact

:35:49. > :35:52.that the level of debt has gone up by so much shows you how very

:35:53. > :35:55.difficult it is to constrain public expenditure.

:35:56. > :35:59.Hang on a minute, your previous Conservative Chancellor said by now

:36:00. > :36:05.the deficit would have been paid off, by a couple of years ago,

:36:06. > :36:08.he would have been able to bring the debt down.

:36:09. > :36:11.I don't know how many times George Osborne

:36:12. > :36:13.as Chancellor promised that, three, four, five times?

:36:14. > :36:17.Your Government has failed to do that.

:36:18. > :36:20.And the debt is projected to rise again next year.

:36:21. > :36:23.I don't agree with your analysis, because there is a difference

:36:24. > :36:29.You cannot bring the debt down until you have cleared the deficit,

:36:30. > :36:34.which you promised to do on three, four, five occasions.

:36:35. > :36:40.We have brought the deficit down, you are right we have not cleared

:36:41. > :36:46.it, we are still intent on clearing it as soon as we feasibly can.

:36:47. > :36:49.Do you know how many council homes were built last year?

:36:50. > :36:53.I have not got the figure on my fingertips.

:36:54. > :37:00.Do you know how any people are on the housing waiting list?

:37:01. > :37:04.The determination of the Government is to build more homes.

:37:05. > :37:07.Do you know how many people are on the housing waiting list?

:37:08. > :37:16.We made it clear we will build more homes.

:37:17. > :37:18.You have been in power for seven years.

:37:19. > :37:21.We have tried to ensure we will build more homes,

:37:22. > :37:24.we are deeply conscious of the need to do so, also for

:37:25. > :37:30.As we have seen in our manifesto, there is a commitment to make

:37:31. > :37:33.progress, and I am certain that we will.

:37:34. > :37:40.I live in my constituency and I also have a house in London.

:37:41. > :37:48.But I live in my constituency and London...

:37:49. > :37:54.The IFS has analysed your already-announced tax

:37:55. > :38:00.Working families on tax credits with children,

:38:01. > :38:03.3 million of those households will be ?2,500 a year worse off.

:38:04. > :38:07.How is that helping the just about managing?

:38:08. > :38:12.Your first question and this question underline the difficulties

:38:13. > :38:21.It is a priority to bring down the deficit and the debt,

:38:22. > :38:24.and then you point to areas where we are doing that

:38:25. > :38:26.and the difficulties that are imposed on families.

:38:27. > :38:28.That is the point about being in Government,

:38:29. > :38:35.We live in a country where we have seen the lowest

:38:36. > :38:42.unemployment figures, the highest employment figures

:38:43. > :38:44.for many years, since the 1960s, which is a tremendous achievement.

:38:45. > :38:47.Theresa May has promised on behalf of the Conservatives that she will

:38:48. > :38:55.We are very committed to helping the just about managing.

:38:56. > :39:02.As a result of the policies that we have unveiled,

:39:03. > :39:05.we hope to continue the tremendous success we have seen over the last

:39:06. > :39:12.3 million working families with children on tax credit will be

:39:13. > :39:15.?2,500 a year worse off, how is that a tremendous success?

:39:16. > :39:22.The tremendous success we have had is in running the economy in a way

:39:23. > :39:25.that has produced more jobs, more growth than was ever expected

:39:26. > :39:27.when we came to power in 2010 and inherited the desperate

:39:28. > :39:30.situation that was then prevailing as a result of the work

:39:31. > :39:41.Theresa May has promised not to put VAT up.

:39:42. > :39:44.She is conspicuously failing to promise that she will not put

:39:45. > :39:51.If you had to pick between them, which will it be that will go up

:39:52. > :39:57.We have made these things very clear in our manifesto,

:39:58. > :39:59.it is extremely important, because of the constraints

:40:00. > :40:01.on public expenditure, that we are clear, and we have been

:40:02. > :40:09.If you had to guess which one will go up, national

:40:10. > :40:13.I cannot tell you, we will have to wait and see

:40:14. > :40:17.He has the information, he will know what is best to do

:40:18. > :40:20.to meet our objectives on the public finances and continue to deliver

:40:21. > :40:22.growth in the many economic benefits we have seen recently.

:40:23. > :40:26.You accept that one or other will go up?

:40:27. > :40:29.No, I am saying that the Chancellor is in the best position

:40:30. > :40:35.to make these judgments and that he will do so.

:40:36. > :40:50.I did what I promised my constituents at the last election.

:40:51. > :40:53.No, I think we should have stayed, but I accept

:40:54. > :41:02.we are leaving and we have to get the best-possible deal.

:41:03. > :41:06."It is difficult to see, with the best will in the world,

:41:07. > :41:08.how a non-Brexiteer can lead the Conservative Party

:41:09. > :41:18.Now we have a Remainer leading the party and the country.

:41:19. > :41:30.I assumed that the referendum would be won by David Cameron,

:41:31. > :41:33.and so there would be resistance to that by the Tory Party and it

:41:34. > :41:36.would be difficult thereafter to see how a non-Brexiteer

:41:37. > :41:43.But the reverse happened, and it is probably a great advantage

:41:44. > :41:45.that we have somebody who was a reluctant

:41:46. > :41:53.Very ambitious for my constituents and the Royal Town

:41:54. > :41:55.of Sutton Coldfield, very ambitious for my country,

:41:56. > :42:05.If you could pick a job in the Cabinet, if the Conservatives

:42:06. > :42:11.I would not pick a job in the Cabinet.

:42:12. > :42:15.But if I said to you, you can have any job in the Cabinet,

:42:16. > :42:19.I would not even contemplate it under the bed clothes late at night.

:42:20. > :42:26.Of course you would, you said you were ambitious!

:42:27. > :42:32.I would not presume even to contemplate such a thing.

:42:33. > :42:37.But you would like another job, yes or no?

:42:38. > :42:39.Yes, I have always made it clear I am hoping

:42:40. > :42:42.to resume my ministerial career, but it is not a matter for me,

:42:43. > :42:48.Let's talk about foreign aid, because as former international

:42:49. > :42:52.development secretary you committed to paying foreign aid

:42:53. > :42:54.to countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria and so on.

:42:55. > :42:56.Some Conservative supporters and supporters of other parties

:42:57. > :43:12.No, the important thing it is well used.

:43:13. > :43:22.But we have to make sure that we do the right thing by British taxpayers

:43:23. > :43:25.and ensure that every pound of their hard-earned taxes

:43:26. > :43:28.that we spend in this way, we really get 100 pence delivery

:43:29. > :43:34.The budget for the Ministry of Justice last year,

:43:35. > :43:36.when the prisons were in crisis, was 6 billion, less than half

:43:37. > :43:46.We gave a very firm, strong promise, all political parties did,

:43:47. > :43:49.that we would allocate 0.7% of our budget to help

:43:50. > :43:54.the most-wretched and poorest people in the world.

:43:55. > :43:58.I am incredibly proud that at a time of great austerity my own party

:43:59. > :44:01.stood by that promise and did not seek to balance the books

:44:02. > :44:16.on the backs of the poorest people in the world.

:44:17. > :44:21.How did you get the nickname Thrasher?

:44:22. > :44:25.It is too good a story to debunk in a way, but it was not true.

:44:26. > :44:29.It was said in Private Eye in 1987 when I became an MP,

:44:30. > :44:33.it was an article on the new boys, of which I was one, and it referred

:44:34. > :44:36.to Hitler Hurd and Thrasher Mitchell from their days as head

:44:37. > :44:45.In the context of the times, not particularly.

:44:46. > :44:47.Your favourite Strictly Come Dancing judge?

:44:48. > :44:58.When I was at university it was almost impossible not to go

:44:59. > :45:00.through your university career without coming into

:45:01. > :45:12.The problem with political jokes, they sometimes get elected.

:45:13. > :45:29.That is quite funny, sorry for being slow!

:45:30. > :45:54.There must be people in your constituency

:45:55. > :46:21.All music, really, from Coldplay to classical music to opera.

:46:22. > :46:24.What is your favourite Coldplay track?

:46:25. > :46:30.I am not awfully good names, but Viva La Vida is a good one.

:46:31. > :46:42.Who said this on their first day when they were elected

:46:43. > :46:44.about the House of Commons, "It has appalling facilities,

:46:45. > :46:47.I think I might get the corner of a corridor"?

:46:48. > :46:54.You were in Parliament with your father.

:46:55. > :47:04.For him it must have been a proud time.

:47:05. > :47:06.Well, we treated each other as colleagues

:47:07. > :47:08.in the House of Commons, we were there together

:47:09. > :47:11.Thank you very much for answering my questions.

:47:12. > :47:27.Conservative candidate Andrew Mitchell.

:47:28. > :47:39.Tomorrow Labour's spokesman on health, Jonathan Ashworth.

:47:40. > :47:47.A woman says Rachid Redouane would show her photographs including

:47:48. > :47:51.making cakes. She describes her shock that a man who lived in the

:47:52. > :47:57.same block of flats could have killed so many peoplement her words

:47:58. > :48:03.are spoken by a BBC producer. I just went in and had a coffee and talked

:48:04. > :48:06.about the day. He showed me pictures of cakes and just talked about

:48:07. > :48:10.normal, normal stuff. Nothing, I never left and thought oh, that was

:48:11. > :48:14.a bit weird or I never got that from him at all. I just thought that he

:48:15. > :48:19.was a genuine normal person who spoke about his day and showed me

:48:20. > :48:25.photos of his hobbies that he does. And just a general human, general

:48:26. > :48:28.man. I know you realise what he did on Saturday night, how does that

:48:29. > :48:31.make you feel? It's quite worrying to know that you can live in the

:48:32. > :48:36.same building as somebody and think that they are a genuine person and

:48:37. > :48:40.then to find out that a few months down the line that they're going

:48:41. > :48:44.round stabbing people and harming other people. I never thought he was

:48:45. > :48:48.that kind of person that would have done that to anybody. I never heard

:48:49. > :48:51.of him ever being violent towards anybodiment so to find out that they

:48:52. > :48:56.actually went into London and killed loads of people for no reason, it's

:48:57. > :49:00.just, it's quite worrying really. The London Bridge attack has this

:49:01. > :49:05.morning put the spotlight on tech companies and their

:49:06. > :49:11.encrypted services. The Prime Minister

:49:12. > :49:13.has accused technology firms of not doing enough

:49:14. > :49:15.to remove jihadist propaganda. Theresa May called for international

:49:16. > :49:17.agreements to regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread

:49:18. > :49:22.of extremist material. Lord Ricketts, a cross-bench peer

:49:23. > :49:25.who was National Security Advisor to David Cameron between 2010

:49:26. > :49:30.and 2012, has told this programme a new wave of terrorism is getting

:49:31. > :49:34.past the authorities. Constantly, the authorities

:49:35. > :49:36.are having to do this prioritising. They are having to look

:49:37. > :49:39.through thousands and thousands of reports of people who may be

:49:40. > :49:41.saying crazy things or expressing radical views to sort out those

:49:42. > :49:44.who are the most dangerous And they have been good at that

:49:45. > :49:52.over the last ten years Now, there seems to be a new wave

:49:53. > :49:56.of terrorism that is getting past So the police and the authorities

:49:57. > :50:01.have got to look at that. Are they following up the right

:50:02. > :50:03.leads from the helplines? Are they picking up calls

:50:04. > :50:05.from members of the public, Can they put it together

:50:06. > :50:09.in a different way? Do they need more tools to get

:50:10. > :50:13.access to the internet? I think the internet

:50:14. > :50:14.is the new frontier, really. People being radicalised

:50:15. > :50:24.through the internet. They are using encrypted apps

:50:25. > :50:26.to talk to each other and the authorities need

:50:27. > :50:29.all the access they can get to that. It's a mixture of those

:50:30. > :50:31.things, I think. You asking for help

:50:32. > :50:33.from tech companies, then? They have a role to play,

:50:34. > :50:36.they have responsibility? A lot of the incitement to carry out

:50:37. > :50:40.these acts is coming from the Middle East,

:50:41. > :50:42.coming from Isis and people, as far as I understand it,

:50:43. > :50:45.through YouTube and other channels. Then people are watching that

:50:46. > :50:47.in this country and are perhaps moving from being sympathetic

:50:48. > :50:49.to the extremist cause Yes, I'm sure we need more help

:50:50. > :50:53.from these tech giants. The responsibility, of course,

:50:54. > :50:56.is with the terrorists. But as part of the jigsaw of things

:50:57. > :50:59.that the authorities need, I think maximum help

:51:00. > :51:01.from the Amazons, the Facebooks She's an Internet Safety Expert

:51:02. > :51:26.and used to be the Chief Security Officer for social

:51:27. > :51:27.networking site Bebo. David Emm - he's principal security

:51:28. > :51:38.researcher at the computer security Can we talk about encryption,

:51:39. > :51:42.encryption ie no one can work out what the message is sent between the

:51:43. > :51:47.sender and the receiver, but is there a way for Security Services to

:51:48. > :51:51.be able to access the content of that message and no one else? No.

:51:52. > :51:55.Because if you create a back door you break the encryption and then

:51:56. > :52:01.you cannot ever make that back door secure. So it is just the Security

:52:02. > :52:06.Services that can access it. So it's very problematic to propose this

:52:07. > :52:10.because we need encryption so we can buy stuff online and our

:52:11. > :52:17.transactions are going to be secure. Jim, what's your view on that? Is

:52:18. > :52:20.there a way of by-passing encryption Well, there is one simple thing that

:52:21. > :52:25.the authorities can do which is they can break into people's equipment

:52:26. > :52:29.and they have powers do that because the material is not encrypted when

:52:30. > :52:34.it's at rest on your phone, the messages can be read on your phone

:52:35. > :52:38.as you do when you look at them on your screen and if the Security

:52:39. > :52:41.Services want to take over somebody's device, they can do that.

:52:42. > :52:45.There is always that method. I think what we have to remember here is

:52:46. > :52:48.that there is so much information now and yes, these people are

:52:49. > :52:54.communicating on the internet, but the result of that is they are more

:52:55. > :52:57.vulnerable and more visible and whether it is the communication in

:52:58. > :53:01.data that you can get from Facebook by asking for it or whether it is

:53:02. > :53:05.the content of these messages which you can get by breaking into

:53:06. > :53:09.individual phones. The fact is communications and plotting is more

:53:10. > :53:13.accessible to the authorities today than it ever was before. I'm really

:53:14. > :53:17.interested in that. So Security Services could hack a phone at any

:53:18. > :53:20.time and read an encrypted message you're telling me as the message

:53:21. > :53:24.rests on your phone? When they have the phone. If you had my phone, you

:53:25. > :53:31.can see the messages on there, but you cannot do it when it's

:53:32. > :53:34.transiting a message to Jim as it is in transit in flight, but if I'm

:53:35. > :53:40.investigating, if I am he a police officer and I'm investigating you, I

:53:41. > :53:44.can take your devices and if you look at my phone you can see all of

:53:45. > :53:48.my whatsapp messages. I don't know why politicians are raising this as

:53:49. > :53:53.an issue? They think that sometimes they won't get access to the phones

:53:54. > :53:57.or they want easier access. So, they want to be able to go to the company

:53:58. > :54:00.and just say, "Give me all the messages without having to go to the

:54:01. > :54:04.trouble of targeting an individual person. Understood. OK. I've learnt

:54:05. > :54:13.something, thank you. Yeah, that's really interesting. But let's be

:54:14. > :54:17.clear, if they have this ease of access then we get less security and

:54:18. > :54:21.also because the terrorists know that these platforms are less secure

:54:22. > :54:25.then they stop using them and go else where are. I do think this is a

:54:26. > :54:28.very strange argument in a way because if the Government gets its

:54:29. > :54:31.way, it could end up with less intelligence and I think we need to

:54:32. > :54:36.explore that. We need to think about this very carefully and not just

:54:37. > :54:39.assume that more powers and more commanding of companies to do things

:54:40. > :54:43.results in the outcomes that Government claims that it wants.

:54:44. > :54:48.Right, OK. I totally understand the argument if Security Services can

:54:49. > :54:51.hack a phone and read the messages, more easily then terrorists will use

:54:52. > :54:56.the next messaging platform will come along and so on and so forth,

:54:57. > :55:01.but when you say Jim we get less security, we, they are not

:55:02. > :55:06.interested in us. Well, the thing, as Rachel was saying, if you make

:55:07. > :55:10.the products less secure then that's you and me have to worry more about

:55:11. > :55:14.ordinary criminals getting into this data or other governments. We have

:55:15. > :55:17.to worry about what happens if as a journalist we visit a foreign

:55:18. > :55:20.country and you know our messages can be hacked by the Iranian

:55:21. > :55:26.Government or the Russian Government. We have to remember that

:55:27. > :55:29.these impacts are not just on the extremists and the terrorists,

:55:30. > :55:34.they're on literally everybody and so we all pay a price if the

:55:35. > :55:39.Government goes down this road. Do you agree, Rachel? I 100% agree

:55:40. > :55:44.with that and one of the big challenges for the technology

:55:45. > :55:49.companies is that the extremism videos and things that glorify

:55:50. > :55:54.terrorism and that's an issue for the industry. Google and Facebook

:55:55. > :55:58.are saying we're trying and we're putting money in and of course there

:55:59. > :56:03.is a freedom of speech issue, the BBC, Ofcom, will receive complaints

:56:04. > :56:05.about the content of if somebody is behaving in a bad way in a

:56:06. > :56:09.programme, the same with the newspapers, there is some degree of

:56:10. > :56:13.oversight. There is some standards that are put together editorial

:56:14. > :56:17.standards in relation to what sort of content can be shown and when and

:56:18. > :56:20.where and in what circumstances. You're arguing that Google and

:56:21. > :56:23.Facebook, they are publishers like a newspaper or like the BBC or

:56:24. > :56:30.whatever. Jim, do you agree with that, there could be a role for a

:56:31. > :56:34.global Ofcom? Well, I have no idea whether that would or wouldn't work,

:56:35. > :56:38.but what we have to remember is when newspaper sites or the BBC allow

:56:39. > :56:42.comments on their websites, they are in the same position as Facebook.

:56:43. > :56:47.They don't have a direct relationship with these individuals

:56:48. > :56:51.and people can post things which are illegal, defamatory and inaccurate

:56:52. > :56:55.and while the BBC is one of those examples where they have the money

:56:56. > :57:00.to moderate the comments, that doesn't apply to most sites and I

:57:01. > :57:02.don't think anyone really wants Facebook to be premoderating and

:57:03. > :57:06.checking every comment before it gets up. So the question then is if

:57:07. > :57:09.they are not going to moderate everything how do they identify the

:57:10. > :57:12.things that are bad? And that's the kind of thing you have got to go

:57:13. > :57:19.looking for them and what the Government appears to be doing is

:57:20. > :57:23.saying, "Well, we want you to use algar risms and have computers

:57:24. > :57:28.checking for bad things and employ more staff to do checking." If they

:57:29. > :57:38.get it wrong and content is left up, we're going to fine you. If you do

:57:39. > :57:44.that, you create a massive incentre sieve to censor lots of content.

:57:45. > :57:48.Rachel, we have got less than a minute. Your response to what Jim is

:57:49. > :57:54.saying there? Companies are already doing this. They already use

:57:55. > :57:57.technical means and algar risms. But there is not enough? There is no

:57:58. > :58:01.oversight to give them the guidance that they need and that's because

:58:02. > :58:04.and they are not going to invest more necessarily until there is a

:58:05. > :58:07.consequence because if you are a public policy person within one of

:58:08. > :58:09.these companies you have to make a business case and the senior

:58:10. > :58:14.management team will say, "Is there a requirement to do this?" If not,

:58:15. > :58:16.we're not going to do it. Carry on making the profits. Thank you very

:58:17. > :58:27.much. In a few minutes, people right

:58:28. > :58:35.across the country will pause Let's cross over to Jane Hill at