29/06/2017

:00:09. > :00:09.Hello, it's Thursday, it's 9 o'clock.

:00:10. > :00:16.A retired judge - Sir Martin Moore-Bick -

:00:17. > :00:18.will lead the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster.

:00:19. > :00:21.We'll ask if his appointment will lead to survivors getting

:00:22. > :00:29.the answers they need about the tragedy.

:00:30. > :00:35.There are moves already being made. The public enquiry has already

:00:36. > :00:39.started, but we haven't been given the opportunity to come together as

:00:40. > :00:43.one. We need and demand to be part of every single decision made in

:00:44. > :00:47.that public enquiry. We will bring you some facts about the man who

:00:48. > :00:48.will lead the investigation, and why he is described by one newspaper

:00:49. > :01:00.today as controversial. The parents of a man who became

:01:01. > :01:08.known as jihadi Jack talk about their efforts to bring him home from

:01:09. > :01:12.Syria. I remember screaming in screaming at him on the phone, how

:01:13. > :01:17.could he be so stupid? The line went dead and he did not contact us

:01:18. > :01:24.again. Not for another three weeks. We will have an interview with the

:01:25. > :01:27.parents about the last time they spoke to their son. Will the

:01:28. > :01:31.Government stand firm on its spending plans when their

:01:32. > :01:46.legislative programme is debated in the Commons again today?

:01:47. > :01:54.We are live until 11, as we are each weekday morning. The question today:

:01:55. > :01:57.Is it time to relax their pay cap on firefighters, teachers, nurses and

:01:58. > :02:00.everyone else who works in the public sector? If you're affected by

:02:01. > :02:06.the pay cap which was debated in the Commons last night, and there was a

:02:07. > :02:09.movement to try to get that lifted but it was defeated, if you want to

:02:10. > :02:22.see that happen, do let me know how you think it should be paid for.

:02:23. > :02:31.It is expected that the retired appeal court judge, Sir Martin Moore

:02:32. > :02:32.Bick, will be appointed to lead the public enquiry into the Grenfell

:02:33. > :02:36.Tower fire. The Government says it is determined

:02:37. > :02:39.to get to the truth of what happened at Grenfell Tower, and this

:02:40. > :02:43.is the man set to be given that task - a retired Court of Appeal judge,

:02:44. > :02:45.Sir Martin Moore-Bick. He specialised in commercial law

:02:46. > :02:47.in a career spanning With the clamour for answers,

:02:48. > :02:53.he will be expected to produce his The police say they may not be able

:02:54. > :03:02.to confirm how many people died until the end of the

:03:03. > :03:04.year at the earliest. They estimate so far

:03:05. > :03:07.that the death toll stands at 80, but stress that is not

:03:08. > :03:09.the final picture. Some victims may

:03:10. > :03:10.never be identified. As the investigation continues,

:03:11. > :03:13.the National Housing Federation is calling on the Government

:03:14. > :03:16.to stop its testing of cladding, and instead focus on removing it

:03:17. > :03:19.to make people safe. Having had 120 different tests,

:03:20. > :03:23.from different samples, from different buildings,

:03:24. > :03:28.in different parts of the country, I think we can now say that

:03:29. > :03:31.according to the tests that the Government is carrying out,

:03:32. > :03:35.this cladding is not We don't need to test

:03:36. > :03:38.any more of it. Today, another victim of the fire

:03:39. > :03:40.will be laid to rest, His family say they are devastated,

:03:41. > :03:45.and will miss him terribly. The sad reality is there will be

:03:46. > :03:59.many funerals to follow. Let's talk to our legal eagle, Clive

:04:00. > :04:05.Coleman. Tell us more about this retired judge. He has a kind of

:04:06. > :04:09.classic CV of a successful court of appeal judge. He was called to the

:04:10. > :04:16.bar in 1986, served as a deputy High Court judge, and was then a High

:04:17. > :04:17.Court judge, serving mainly in the commercial Court, dealing with

:04:18. > :04:21.technical, engineering type evidence, in many cases, which of

:04:22. > :04:30.course is a qualification for Grenfell. He retired last year, and

:04:31. > :04:34.for the last two years, he was vice president of the Court of Appeal's

:04:35. > :04:38.civil division. He is married with children. He is an establishment

:04:39. > :04:44.figure, and his brother is a retired general. Why is he described as

:04:45. > :04:50.controversial by the papers today? He left the Court of Appeal last

:04:51. > :04:54.year, after serving 11 years or so. This morning, in the papers, one of

:04:55. > :05:00.his decisions has been picked up, and it is a case in 2014 where he

:05:01. > :05:04.oversaw a case and ruled that a London tenant, a woman who lived in

:05:05. > :05:11.Westminster, a single mother with five children, and she was re-housed

:05:12. > :05:14.some 50 miles away by Westminster Council, in Bletchley, near Milton

:05:15. > :05:18.Keynes. She disputed that decision, said it was unlawful, took a

:05:19. > :05:22.judicial review will stop when it got to the Court of Appeal, he had

:05:23. > :05:29.to scrutinise whether decision taken by the Council... And councils are

:05:30. > :05:38.allowed to rehouse people out of area in certain circumstances. He

:05:39. > :05:42.decided it was not unlawful. Some people are nodding at that as

:05:43. > :05:46.perhaps a perceived bias against vulnerable families. Everyone I have

:05:47. > :05:49.spoken to has said, look at his entire career. This was one decision

:05:50. > :05:59.and he was applying the law. After the case, the solicitor said, the

:06:00. > :06:02.judgment could have dire consequences for vulnerable families

:06:03. > :06:07.across the country. He said, it gives the green light for councils

:06:08. > :06:11.to engage in social cleansing of the poor on a mass scale. When you have

:06:12. > :06:16.comments like that, you could see why some people would think that is

:06:17. > :06:21.a controversial judge for this enquiry. What about the terms of

:06:22. > :06:26.reference, who decides that? That will be decided by the Government.

:06:27. > :06:33.Let me say why I think they have picked this particular judge. First,

:06:34. > :06:37.he has been in the commercial court. As a barrister, he was involved in

:06:38. > :06:41.shipping cases and would have had to deal with complex engineering

:06:42. > :06:48.matters - why a ship sank, for instance. You need are judge you can

:06:49. > :06:53.get their head around the technical details. You also need a judge who

:06:54. > :06:58.is going to be good in communicating with the families, empathetic.

:06:59. > :07:20.Heather Hallett got a lot of plaudits for the way she handled the

:07:21. > :07:27.77 case -- the 7/7 case. A friend of Martin Moore Bic has said that he

:07:28. > :07:30.can be persuaded and can change his position.

:07:31. > :07:32.Annita McVeigh is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:07:33. > :07:37.There'll be another big test for Theresa May in the Commons today

:07:38. > :07:39.as she faces a key vote on the Queen's Speech.

:07:40. > :07:41.With the support of the Democratic Unionists,

:07:42. > :07:44.the Government is expected to pass its plans for the next

:07:45. > :07:46.Parliament, after narrowly surviving a vote last night on changes

:07:47. > :07:53.Our Political Correspondent Leila Nathoo has the details.

:07:54. > :07:58.The first vote of this parliament on a Labour amendment

:07:59. > :08:01.to the Queen's Speech proposing to end the cap on public sector pay

:08:02. > :08:07.This was the first test of Theresa May's deal with the DUP,

:08:08. > :08:10.made to boost the numbers on her side in the Commons.

:08:11. > :08:20.with the Conservatives to help see off the opposition's challenge.

:08:21. > :08:23.Today ahead of the final vote on the Queen's Speech which sets out

:08:24. > :08:27.the government's policy programme, Labour will try their luck again.

:08:28. > :08:30.We're putting forward fundamentally what was in the manifesto

:08:31. > :08:34.in the election, a Brexit which guarantees trade relations

:08:35. > :08:45.with Europe, a government that ends the public sector pay gap

:08:46. > :08:48.-- with Europe, a government that ends the public sector pay cap

:08:49. > :08:50.and a government that invests in the educational future

:08:51. > :08:52.of all our children, from nursery through to university.

:08:53. > :08:55.Labour thinks it's on the front foot with its calls to end austerity.

:08:56. > :08:58.Many Conservatives admit the cuts didn't go down well on the doorstep

:08:59. > :09:01.But after signals from senior Cabinet members and Downing Street

:09:02. > :09:03.sources that the pay cap would be reviewed,

:09:04. > :09:06.there was not yet any change in policy.

:09:07. > :09:09.We will not make our decision on public sector pay

:09:10. > :09:11.until the Pay Review Body has reported.

:09:12. > :09:15.And we will listen to what they say, and we will listen to what people

:09:16. > :09:17.in this House have said before making a final decision.

:09:18. > :09:21.Theresa May is expected to win the vote on the Queen's Speech today

:09:22. > :09:23.with the support of the DUP and her backbenchers

:09:24. > :09:27.But her majority is slim, her authority is still fragile.

:09:28. > :09:38.Police in Australia have charged one of the most senior

:09:39. > :09:40.Roman Catholic Cardinals, George Pell, with sexually

:09:41. > :09:44.Cardinal Pell is in charge of the Vatican's finances

:09:45. > :09:47.and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church.

:09:48. > :09:50.He is accused of multiple offences dating back to the 1970s-

:09:51. > :10:09.I am looking forward finally to having my day in court. I am

:10:10. > :10:16.innocent of these charges. They are false. The whole idea of sexual

:10:17. > :10:27.abuse is abhorrent to me. Talks over resuming power-sharing

:10:28. > :10:31.Stormont have stalled with only eight hours to go until the

:10:32. > :10:33.deadline. Northern Ireland faces the prospect of direct rule from London

:10:34. > :10:42.if an agreement cannot be reached. Culture and media secretary Karen

:10:43. > :10:47.Bradley will make an announcement today about whether 20th Century

:10:48. > :10:52.Fox, owned by Rupert Murdoch, is allowed to take over sky. It would

:10:53. > :10:57.give Mr Murdoch total control of the broadcaster of which he already owns

:10:58. > :10:58.39%. Opponents say that any deal will give him too much power over

:10:59. > :11:05.the UK media. A mother has described the distress

:11:06. > :11:08.of discovering her baby son had been The woman, from Nottingham,

:11:09. > :11:11.said she has been trying for four years to get the authorities to take

:11:12. > :11:15.action, after she opened her son's The boy was circumcised in 2013

:11:16. > :11:19.when he was apparently staying Three people have now been arrested

:11:20. > :11:22.on suspicion of grievous The National Crime Agency says it's

:11:23. > :11:26.increasingly concerned about the influence criminals

:11:27. > :11:28.from the Balkans - particularly violent

:11:29. > :11:29.gangs from Albania - have over the UK drug

:11:30. > :11:35.trafficking market. It says corrupt workers at ports

:11:36. > :11:38.and airports make it easier Here's our Home Affairs

:11:39. > :12:07.Correspondent, Danny Shaw. To get in touch with this today.

:12:08. > :12:12.Details on screen. Now, let's get some sport. The big news from New

:12:13. > :12:16.Zealand in the last few hours is that Warren Gatland has named his

:12:17. > :12:22.lions team for the second Test. You wait four years for a lions tour

:12:23. > :12:26.and you just hope it won't be an anti-climax, but it may be going

:12:27. > :12:28.that way this time around. The pressure is building for Warren

:12:29. > :12:33.Gatland and his players, stuck between a rock and a hard place at

:12:34. > :12:36.the moment. We knew it would be tough against world champions New

:12:37. > :12:38.Zealand. They go into the second test in Wellington knowing that

:12:39. > :12:42.anything other than victory means they cannot win the series. Warren

:12:43. > :12:50.Gatland has made several changes, Sam Warburton replacing Peter

:12:51. > :12:53.O'Mahoney in the back row. George Cruise drops out of the match day

:12:54. > :12:58.squad altogether. Courtney Lawes will Beer substitute. Ben Te'o moves

:12:59. > :13:03.to the bench. Owen Farrell is given a start at inside centre, meaning

:13:04. > :13:11.Jonny Sexton will take up that pivotal spot. Warren Gatland gave

:13:12. > :13:14.his views on that Farrell and Sexton combination. They haven't started

:13:15. > :13:26.together but they have had quite a bit of time together. It has given

:13:27. > :13:36.us two ballplayers, two kicking options on the right foot. We also

:13:37. > :13:43.have left foot options. We are happy with the mix. That partnership could

:13:44. > :13:47.be key to the lions unlocking success this weekend. Is not their

:13:48. > :13:52.side. The only time they have lost the opening test in comeback to win

:13:53. > :13:56.was in was in Australia in 1989. According to the incoming chair of

:13:57. > :14:00.UK sport, there are huge concerns about the welfare of athletes.

:14:01. > :14:09.Tell us more. Dame Katherine Grainger, Olympic gold medallist,

:14:10. > :14:15.will be the new chair of UK Sport from July. She has given her first

:14:16. > :14:19.interview and says she has huge concerns over athlete welfare, and

:14:20. > :14:22.given the recent bullying accusations in several sports, she

:14:23. > :14:26.feels there is a real need for improvement. She has little

:14:27. > :14:30.experience in sports administration, so it was a surprise appointment at

:14:31. > :14:35.a critical time. Despite her amazing achievements, in her interview with

:14:36. > :14:43.our sports editor, she says she's very serious about this new role.

:14:44. > :14:49.There I huge concerns about welfare, without a doubt. I think we have to

:14:50. > :14:53.address it. Everyone is under pressure, so athletes want to

:14:54. > :14:56.deliver, coaches want to get results, performance directors,

:14:57. > :15:01.chief executives. There is a situation of, how good can we be and

:15:02. > :15:05.how many medals can we deliver? And the future of our sport is dependent

:15:06. > :15:10.on this. Sports are complaining about the funding they have been

:15:11. > :15:14.receiving, and she says there will be a tough financial future ahead,

:15:15. > :15:18.which will be a challenge for all disciplines going forward. A bit of

:15:19. > :15:21.that expectation for Tokyo and beyond may have to be curtailed a

:15:22. > :15:24.little bit. Thank you. More throughout the morning.

:15:25. > :15:27.Labour will ask MPs to support elements of its general election

:15:28. > :15:29.manifesto today aimed at increasing public spending.

:15:30. > :15:32.They're doing it by putting forward what's called an amendment

:15:33. > :15:34.to the government's programme for the next few years known

:15:35. > :15:39.It will get voted down though because even Conservative

:15:40. > :15:42.politicians who support an easing of austerity won't bring

:15:43. > :15:50.down their own government by voting against the Queen's Speech.

:15:51. > :15:53.A previous Labour amendment, on lifting the public sector

:15:54. > :15:56.pay cap, was defeated in the Commons last night.

:15:57. > :15:58.But some senior Conservatives appear to have signalled that,

:15:59. > :16:02.after seven years, austerity could be coming to an end.

:16:03. > :16:07.A quick reminder of the last Chancellor,

:16:08. > :16:09.George Osborne, last year spelling out his approach

:16:10. > :16:13.to the public finances in the years he was in charge of the purse

:16:14. > :16:21.This is the first time this government has announced the

:16:22. > :16:27.And that is why the government is asking the

:16:28. > :16:29.public sector to accept a two-year pay freeze.

:16:30. > :16:32.There are big underlying problems we have to fix in our

:16:33. > :16:35.More repairs, more cuts, more difficult decisions.

:16:36. > :16:37.So we may need to undertake further reductions

:16:38. > :16:40.in spending because this country can only afford what it can afford.

:16:41. > :16:43.Now contrast that with senior Conservative MPs

:16:44. > :16:46.and cabinet ministers who - in a series of interviews

:16:47. > :16:49.yesterday - left no doubt as to the Government's new approach.

:16:50. > :16:52.We've had to take some tough decisions and in the wake

:16:53. > :16:54.of the general election, we're going to have

:16:55. > :16:56.to think through what we do come the next budget.

:16:57. > :16:59.I think in due course, not immediately but in due course,

:17:00. > :17:01.we will need to consider the question of the

:17:02. > :17:07.This is obviously something we have to consider,

:17:08. > :17:12.not just for the Army but right across the public sector as a whole.

:17:13. > :17:14.Our political guru Norman Smith is in Westminster.

:17:15. > :17:20.Is this the end of austerity, Norman? It may not be the end of

:17:21. > :17:24.austerity, but I think we are seeing a fundamental change now in the wake

:17:25. > :17:31.of the election, although the government will probably win

:17:32. > :17:36.tonight's Queen's speech debate, and they won the vote last night on the

:17:37. > :17:40.paid cap, things have changed pretty fundamentally. What is striking when

:17:41. > :17:43.you listened it for example to yesterday's debate was the number of

:17:44. > :17:51.Conservative MPs getting up and basically saying this pay cap is

:17:52. > :18:00.unfair, it demoralises staff in the NHS, makes it harder to retain and

:18:01. > :18:04.recruit staff. There is a broader sense among the Tories that they

:18:05. > :18:09.cannot carry on with it. We have had pay freezes for seven years now. If

:18:10. > :18:12.you think back to Margaret Thatcher when she was Prime Minister she

:18:13. > :18:16.attempted austerity about two or three years and we have now had

:18:17. > :18:20.seven years. This has never been done before. When you listen to

:18:21. > :18:25.George Osborne, under his plans we would be carrying on with austerity

:18:26. > :18:30.potentially for another seven years up to the middle 2020s. There is

:18:31. > :18:33.just a recognition that the great British public are weary, they are

:18:34. > :18:37.tired and do not have the stomach for going on with this. And also the

:18:38. > :18:41.sense that the easier cuts in public services have been made. You are now

:18:42. > :18:48.having to make very difficult decisions about how you save money

:18:49. > :18:50.in schools and hospitals, and that austerity, which originally might

:18:51. > :18:55.have been confined to the public sector, or people on benefits, now

:18:56. > :18:59.pretty much every section of society is feeling the squeeze. So I think

:19:00. > :19:03.we will see in the Autumn Statement the foot taken off the gas of the

:19:04. > :19:07.paid cap and you may see further retreats in other areas of austerity

:19:08. > :19:11.too. Austerity is not over but there is no doubt that Hammond the

:19:12. > :19:15.Chancellor will take his foot off the gas.

:19:16. > :19:21.Diane has tweeted I am an NHS band to work and I get ?8 42 per hour and

:19:22. > :19:26.I'm the victim of many assaults at work. Imagine how I feel when MPs

:19:27. > :19:29.cheer at keeping the cap while giving the DUP ?1 billion and the

:19:30. > :19:34.Queen and 8% rise. Matt Jones on Facebook: it is

:19:35. > :19:37.rubbish police and teachers are poorly paid. The nonteaching head of

:19:38. > :19:44.my local comprehensive gets ?145,000 a year. Sarah James is a council

:19:45. > :19:48.employee and had her pay frozen for the last seven years. Tony Babb runs

:19:49. > :19:52.his own recruitment company and is concerned about the potential end of

:19:53. > :19:58.austerity. Thorrun Govind is a community pharmacist and says she is

:19:59. > :20:02.happy to pay more in tax. In Great Yarmouth is Matt Smith, a former

:20:03. > :20:06.Ukip councillor who runs his own small business and wants more or

:20:07. > :20:11.continuing austerity. Welcome. A quick answer from all of you, Sarah,

:20:12. > :20:13.is it time for the 1% pay cap on council employees, nurses, teachers,

:20:14. > :20:21.soldiers, firefighters and the police to end? Yes. Yes. Of course

:20:22. > :20:27.the pay cap shouldn't end. Absolutely. Sarah, you have had this

:20:28. > :20:35.pay freeze for the last seven years. Why is it time for it to stop now?

:20:36. > :20:44.Seven years we have had since 2010, a pay freeze of 0%. 2012, 1%. It's

:20:45. > :20:48.less than inflation, 2.5% on average per year so we are actually having a

:20:49. > :20:52.pay cut. It is getting to the point that it's not right that our nurses

:20:53. > :20:58.and public sector staff I having to rely on food parcels and the lady

:20:59. > :21:02.who tweeted in who said you are getting MPs getting their own pay

:21:03. > :21:07.rises, the Queen getting a pay rise, public sector workers are the

:21:08. > :21:11.backbone of society. Theresa May standing on the door of No 10 saying

:21:12. > :21:16.we value their service, especially in the last few weeks, they do a

:21:17. > :21:19.great job, but that doesn't put food in people's stomachs, doesn't put

:21:20. > :21:22.clothes on people's backs and is about time we get decent pay for a

:21:23. > :21:26.decent job. Matt Smith, you have clearly said

:21:27. > :21:30.no, it's not time to end the pay freeze. Sarah James is a council

:21:31. > :21:35.employee, tell her why it isn't the right time. The problem is what you

:21:36. > :21:39.are looking at which is that if you spend more than you earn eventually

:21:40. > :21:44.you will go broke so we have not seen austerity in this country. We

:21:45. > :21:47.have seen a minor reduction of the deficit, the debt is not going down,

:21:48. > :21:53.there are so many more important things that we need to pay for. Like

:21:54. > :21:57.what? The Institute for Fiscal Studies said public sector workers

:21:58. > :22:01.earn more than their counterparts in the private sector. We have

:22:02. > :22:06.executives on more pay than the Prime Minister, locally in Norfolk

:22:07. > :22:09.recently we had an executive get a ?250,000 payoff, that is where we

:22:10. > :22:14.should be cutting. I don't think public sector pay will rise because

:22:15. > :22:22.people in the private sector are not seeing it, certainly not in Great

:22:23. > :22:25.Yarmouth where I am. Like Matt, Tony, you run your own private

:22:26. > :22:31.company, you say the public sector pay freeze should be relaxed. Why?

:22:32. > :22:34.It's a difficult situation we find ourselves in, I'm not wanting to

:22:35. > :22:37.massively sit on the fence but there has to be something done, enough is

:22:38. > :22:46.enough and we have seen that from the general election. People in the

:22:47. > :22:49.public sector, ... I agree there are inefficiencies in the public sector

:22:50. > :22:55.and the easiest thing to say is freeze the lowest paid workers'

:22:56. > :22:59.increases is simplistic and unfair. That said, I need an answer as to

:23:00. > :23:04.where it comes from because I don't want to plunge back into the

:23:05. > :23:07.economic dark ages. So you do not want more borrowing to fund this

:23:08. > :23:12.which the Institute for Fiscal Studies said if it was relaxed would

:23:13. > :23:17.cost over ?4 billion extra per year by 2019. That means raising taxes. I

:23:18. > :23:26.see no other real way of doing it. Is that a great idea in itself? Do

:23:27. > :23:30.we want to see small and medium businesses crushed and leaving the

:23:31. > :23:33.country? With Brexit on everyone's mind and high owners and business

:23:34. > :23:37.owners leaving the country because it's not economically viable for

:23:38. > :23:43.them to stay, that has a knock-on effect as well. You said

:23:44. > :23:49.emphatically you would like to see the paid cap relaxed. Tell us about

:23:50. > :23:53.your relationship with the Conservative Party and how it has

:23:54. > :23:59.changed because of austerity, use a. Yes, I was a Conservative voter, but

:24:00. > :24:02.unfortunately I feel as a community pharmacist that the Conservatives

:24:03. > :24:08.were not looking after the public. We have had the nurse who spoke to

:24:09. > :24:13.Theresa May during the campaign, and Theresa May said there is no magic

:24:14. > :24:17.money tree. Well, the Conservative logo is a money tree and it has gone

:24:18. > :24:21.straight to the DUP and I'm absolutely appalled at how there has

:24:22. > :24:27.been cuts in the funding to community pharmacy and the NHS, and

:24:28. > :24:31.it's all trickling down to affect the workers. Let me pause you there,

:24:32. > :24:37.Thorrun. As you the Conservative logo is a magic money tree and has

:24:38. > :24:41.gone to the DUP. Matt Smith in Great Yarmouth raised his eyebrows and

:24:42. > :24:46.shook his head in disagreement. Talk to Thorrun about that. You are

:24:47. > :24:49.suspending disbelief at the moment. We have not reduced the debt, we

:24:50. > :24:57.have not worked out what we are going to do in the future. Veneto

:24:58. > :25:04.Thorrun's point was if ?1 billion can be traced, whether it's from

:25:05. > :25:10.borrowing or not... The truth is you don't have the money for either of

:25:11. > :25:13.those things. We can't just keep spending money willy-nilly,

:25:14. > :25:17.eventually it will run out, we are increasing the debt. Remember in

:25:18. > :25:21.2010, the secretary to the Treasury said we have run out of money. It

:25:22. > :25:24.has been seven years since then, we still don't have any money and we

:25:25. > :25:30.have not paid off the debt will stop what will happen? Many politicians

:25:31. > :25:35.are saying we have to take serious action. We have not seen austerity.

:25:36. > :25:42.Let me point something out here. With ?1 spent in community pharmacy

:25:43. > :25:46.we save the NHS between ?21 and ?26. Sometimes you have to spend a little

:25:47. > :25:51.money to spend a lot of money. That's just in one instance. I can't

:25:52. > :25:54.say I know your job inside out, I really don't but there is so much

:25:55. > :26:00.spending going on in government and we don't know where it is going. It

:26:01. > :26:03.is being spent on expenses, so much spent on MP expenses, MP pay rises,

:26:04. > :26:08.not to the people helping to make a difference in this country, the

:26:09. > :26:11.firefighters who ran into the Grenfell fire, we must respect these

:26:12. > :26:16.people and make sure they are looked after. 600 odd MPs getting a pay

:26:17. > :26:19.rise is in no way equivalent to the amount of money would cost to give a

:26:20. > :26:23.pay rise to every single firefighter, nurse, health worker,

:26:24. > :26:27.anything, you name it. What about the people who work in the private

:26:28. > :26:31.sector that might work in Boots, or in a shop somewhere else, they are

:26:32. > :26:36.not seen their wages go up particularly because inflation is

:26:37. > :26:40.going up so much. I just think fundamentally we need to think about

:26:41. > :26:43.the people who are looking after the vulnerable in this country. Nurses

:26:44. > :26:56.should not be going to food banks. Nurses should not be walking into a

:26:57. > :26:59.pharmacy... That is a lie, somebody sipping champagne in New York is not

:27:00. > :27:04.the sort of woman who needs to user feedback. Let me bring Sarah back in

:27:05. > :27:08.who is a council employee. Have to ask the question, where the money

:27:09. > :27:13.comes from. There are all sorts of choice is the government could make

:27:14. > :27:14.raising income tax, National Insurance, raising VAT, although

:27:15. > :27:18.Theresa May promised before the election she would not raise the 80

:27:19. > :27:22.but I do not know where they stand now. They have a deal with the DUP.

:27:23. > :27:27.It could be reducing the foreign a budget. It could be not spending

:27:28. > :27:34.money on a chest to. They're all sorts of things. Could be borrowing.

:27:35. > :27:39.-- HS2. Where would you like the money to come from to fund a pay

:27:40. > :27:48.rise for public sector workers? It must be costed. There are luxuries

:27:49. > :27:54.that for me is frivolous spending. We don't need it. If you lived in

:27:55. > :27:59.Manchester or Birmingham, you could say we need that, it is economically

:28:00. > :28:04.important. That is why we select our MPs to sit in Parliament to make

:28:05. > :28:08.those decisions on our behalf. I work with people coming in asking

:28:09. > :28:14.for help with their rent and council tax costs, so I totally disagree

:28:15. > :28:18.with what Matt said about people not relying on food banks and not

:28:19. > :28:23.relying on local welfare provision. I see it day in and day out. I

:28:24. > :28:28.didn't say generally ordinary people, the nurse didn't need that.

:28:29. > :28:31.In terms of that I see it on a daily basis. I'm passionate that we need a

:28:32. > :28:36.pay rise. It is good for the economy. More money in, spending

:28:37. > :28:38.more money, will lower the benefit bill because people will not have to

:28:39. > :28:45.rely on benefits to have housing costs pay for a council tax paid

:28:46. > :28:50.for. That is why I'm passionate about getting the pay rise in place.

:28:51. > :28:56.Public sector workers are the backbone of this country. So small

:28:57. > :28:59.businesses. You run and so does Matt. You touched on earlier that if

:29:00. > :29:06.taxes were raised that could act as a brake on economic growth. Is that

:29:07. > :29:09.a worry for you, particularly with Brexit negotiations? We have never

:29:10. > :29:16.had a more divisive time Van recently in terms of every decision

:29:17. > :29:21.as a yen and Yang to it. What has happened over the last seven years

:29:22. > :29:25.is a strengthening in the British economy. We have moved forward in

:29:26. > :29:30.terms of jobs and unemployment, moved forward in terms of growth

:29:31. > :29:33.generally over that period. To jeopardise that is a dangerous

:29:34. > :29:36.affair. Businesses do feel the pinch with this sort of thing and we've

:29:37. > :29:42.got to be careful to stimulate growth. A couple more e-mails

:29:43. > :29:44.watching you talk about this around the country.

:29:45. > :29:48.Antonia says I am a nurse working in the NHS for the last 13 years and I

:29:49. > :29:51.am disillusioned with the government. I foolishly voted for

:29:52. > :29:56.Theresa May in June. I could kick myself, I struggle every month as my

:29:57. > :30:00.salary shrinks year-on-year. It makes a difference to my salary

:30:01. > :30:04.which is eaten up with more National Insurance, tax and pension. I have

:30:05. > :30:07.signed up with a nursing baby Dummett agency to top of my wages

:30:08. > :30:13.paying an extra ?10 and now more than I received with the NHS. Paul

:30:14. > :30:17.says I believe the good way to put money into the health service would

:30:18. > :30:20.be to charge ?10 for a doctor's visit. I have to pay to see the

:30:21. > :30:25.dentist and optician. Would it be fair to visit the doctor and paid?

:30:26. > :30:29.Thank you for one of those? Thank you for joining us. I appreciate

:30:30. > :30:33.your time. Your views are welcome, particularly if you work in the

:30:34. > :30:35.public sector, or not. What you think about whether, as Norman was

:30:36. > :30:39.saying, there are moves within government to perhaps relax it when

:30:40. > :30:46.it comes to the autumn Budget Statement? Still to come: we will

:30:47. > :30:50.hear from the parents of the 21-year-old man who became known as

:30:51. > :30:53.jihadis jack after travelling to Syria, about the last time they

:30:54. > :30:57.spoke to their son and their efforts to get him back to the UK. And we

:30:58. > :31:00.have the latest developments as the government is to rule this morning

:31:01. > :31:01.on whether to give the green light to Rupert Murdoch's proposed

:31:02. > :31:27.takeover of Sky. A retired Court of Appeal judge has

:31:28. > :31:35.been appointed to lead the enquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire. Police

:31:36. > :31:38.say that at least 80 people are now known to have died, but the final

:31:39. > :31:41.death toll will not be known until at least the end of the year.

:31:42. > :31:44.Theresa May will face a major test of whether she has enough authority

:31:45. > :31:47.to stay in power as MPs vote on the Queen's Speech later today.

:31:48. > :31:49.With the support of the Democratic Unionists the government is expected

:31:50. > :31:52.to pass its plans for the next Parliament, after narrowly surviving

:31:53. > :31:54.a vote last night on changes to public sector pay.

:31:55. > :31:57.Jeremy Corbyn is calling on MPs to support his plans

:31:58. > :32:07.Police in Australia have charged one of the most senior

:32:08. > :32:09.Roman Catholic Cardinals, George Pell, with sexually

:32:10. > :32:12.Cardinal Pell is in charge of the Vatican's finances

:32:13. > :32:15.and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church.

:32:16. > :32:19.He is accused of multiple offences dating back

:32:20. > :32:21.to the 1970s - charges he's strenuously denied.

:32:22. > :32:23.Talks over resuming power-sharing at Stormont remain stalled ,

:32:24. > :32:27.with only hours to go until the deadline.

:32:28. > :32:29.If no deal is reached to restore the devolved government

:32:30. > :32:31.by four this afternoon, Northern Ireland faces the prospect

:32:32. > :32:38.The Culture and Media Secretary, Karen Bradley, will announce today

:32:39. > :32:43.whether 21st Century Fox, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch,

:32:44. > :32:47.The deal, which has been cleared by European Commisision

:32:48. > :32:50.competition authorities, would give Mr Murdoch total control

:32:51. > :32:53.of the broadcaster - he already owns 39% of the company.

:32:54. > :32:58.Opponents say any deal will give him too much power in the UK media.

:32:59. > :33:06.That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

:33:07. > :33:11.Hugh's back now with the sports headlines.

:33:12. > :33:20.Warren Gatland has made some tough calls in terms of the line-up for

:33:21. > :33:27.the starting 15 against New Zealand. Campbell -- Sam Warburton comes into

:33:28. > :33:30.the pack. Owen Farrell will start at inside centre, and Jonny Sexton has

:33:31. > :33:35.been named as fly-half. Jade Jones remains on course to

:33:36. > :33:39.complete a career grand slam of major tae kwon do titles as she

:33:40. > :33:50.reached the semifinals in South Korea. She is guaranteed at least a

:33:51. > :33:55.world bronze. Dame Katherine Grainger is the incoming chair of UK

:33:56. > :34:00.Sport, and she says she has concerns about the welfare of athletes given

:34:01. > :34:11.the number of sport bodies facing bullying accusations.

:34:12. > :34:14.That's all for now. We'll be back just after 10am.

:34:15. > :34:17.A 21-year-old man from Oxford, who travelled to the so-called

:34:18. > :34:21.Islamic State-controlled area of Syria in 2014, says he's now

:34:22. > :34:24.being held by Kurdish forces fighting the group.

:34:25. > :34:29.Jack Letts, dubbed "Jihadi Jack", is suspected of going to Syria

:34:30. > :34:32.to fight for so-called Islamic State - he claims he is opposed

:34:33. > :34:38.His parents - who have pleaded not guilty to charges of funding

:34:39. > :34:41.terrorism after being accused of sending cash to their son -

:34:42. > :34:43.are calling on the British authorities to do "whatever

:34:44. > :34:47.We spoke to Sally and John Letts recently and they told me

:34:48. > :34:51.about the last time they spoke to Jack Letts.

:34:52. > :34:56.Up until that point, we'd been having reasonably

:34:57. > :35:04.About every other day, we were speaking to him

:35:05. > :35:10.And then, as of last Thursday, all contact stopped.

:35:11. > :35:12.So we're not, we don't know what's going on now.

:35:13. > :35:20.Erm, he's in protective custody in, erm, the Kurdish controlled

:35:21. > :35:29.So, he's been able to tell us where he is and who he is with,

:35:30. > :35:33.And, erm, we've been trying to contact the Foreign Office

:35:34. > :35:40.to help us, you know, get him out, really.

:35:41. > :35:42.Protective custody, does that mean jail?

:35:43. > :35:48.He's been, he was being held in a prison but he said he hadn't

:35:49. > :35:50.actually been arrested and they were doing it to protect

:35:51. > :35:58.This is this group of fighters who oppose Isis,

:35:59. > :36:04.They had told him they were very impressed that he had,

:36:05. > :36:06.one, managed to escape, that they had looked

:36:07. > :36:11.into him and they were going to take good care of him.

:36:12. > :36:13.They said he could stay in the Kurdish region but that,

:36:14. > :36:19.I mean, Isis is still operating in the area and presumably others.

:36:20. > :36:22.So, but where he actually is right now, since we haven't heard in two

:36:23. > :36:29.So that is what is worrying us hugely.

:36:30. > :36:31.When you were having those long phone conversations from this,

:36:32. > :36:37.from wherever he is in northern Syria, what was he saying to you?

:36:38. > :36:41.Erm, he was, he was wondering what was going to happen to him next

:36:42. > :36:44.because it was very difficult for him to escape from where he was.

:36:45. > :36:47.He was in a very dangerous part of Syria.

:36:48. > :36:50.And we thought that now he had finally made it out

:36:51. > :36:56.of Isis-controlled territory that that would be it, that he would be

:36:57. > :37:05.Erm, and we have been told by the British authorities that

:37:06. > :37:07.as soon as he makes it out of Isis controlled territory,

:37:08. > :37:13.But, erm, no help has been forthcoming so far,

:37:14. > :37:15.even though we've known where he is since, well,

:37:16. > :37:20.You will know that your son told Channel 4 News he opposes

:37:21. > :37:28.Well, you know, he definitely is Muslim.

:37:29. > :37:38.And he, I think he was taken by, as many were that went out,

:37:39. > :37:42.by the idea of creating this utopian Muslim society.

:37:43. > :37:45.I do think he probably believed that and probably still believes that.

:37:46. > :37:48.There's a big difference from being Muslim, as everybody knows,

:37:49. > :37:52.and being an extremist, violent, who wants to impose it.

:37:53. > :37:56.He said he didn't agree with a lot of what Islamic State follow.

:37:57. > :38:04.Well, I think it would be great to have him back here to answer

:38:05. > :38:08.I think he should be sitting here and talking

:38:09. > :38:13.I can't account for all of Jack's movements for three years.

:38:14. > :38:15.I mean, we had no idea he was going there,

:38:16. > :38:21.I mean, I made a lot of stupid mistakes when I was 18.

:38:22. > :38:24.It is kind of like a rather extensive gap year.

:38:25. > :38:34.When he went out there initially, it was all about Assad.

:38:35. > :38:37.It was, it was, a part of the uprising against Assad,

:38:38. > :38:40.you know, the civil war then, it was part of the Arab Spring.

:38:41. > :38:43.Jack went out to the region in May 2014.

:38:44. > :38:54.Yeah, and before he went, he was very upset about

:38:55. > :38:58.I mean, it was known at 11,000 people had been

:38:59. > :39:04.We never for a minute thought that he would go

:39:05. > :39:08.We tried to get him out with official permission.

:39:09. > :39:15.I fully understand how difficult it is for the police in this

:39:16. > :39:22.I want to walk the streets safely when my relatives

:39:23. > :39:25.I've been here for a long, long time.

:39:26. > :39:27.You know, we all want to walk the streets safely.

:39:28. > :39:31.But he has questions to answer, that's absolutely fine.

:39:32. > :39:35.If he's back, we've always said, you know, hand yourself over

:39:36. > :39:38.to the British once you get out and I'd be the first

:39:39. > :39:47.But, you know, you are, I thought, innocent until proven guilty.

:39:48. > :39:50.And, and, I think if he is questioned, he can

:39:51. > :39:52.talk about it but how would my going to find

:39:53. > :39:59.And what he tells me I assess and I think that everything makes

:40:00. > :40:03.sense from what he has been telling us for two and a half years.

:40:04. > :40:06.When you got the call, I think it was you, Sally,

:40:07. > :40:10.from Jack, saying he was in Syria, this was 2014.

:40:11. > :40:16.What, what did you say to each other?

:40:17. > :40:21.What was going through your head when you realised where he was?

:40:22. > :40:25.I mean, I was screaming at him on the phone,

:40:26. > :40:33.And then, and then the line went dead.

:40:34. > :40:39.So, erm, and then he did not contact us again for another three weeks.

:40:40. > :40:42.And in those three weeks, erm, we spent every single minute trying

:40:43. > :40:48.to contact whoever we could, trying to get help.

:40:49. > :40:55.So everybody from journalists, to charities, to Prevent,

:40:56. > :41:00.organisations, youth workers who work with Prevent

:41:01. > :41:03.and then we did a lot of our own reading about who,

:41:04. > :41:15.You tried to send ?1700 or something?

:41:16. > :41:18.Well, we tried to send money and it got blocked,

:41:19. > :41:22.So the total sum we tried to send is that amount.

:41:23. > :41:26.And then we were, we were actually charged with the offences.

:41:27. > :41:29.And then you were arrested on the grounds that the money

:41:30. > :41:31.you were transferring, trying to transfer, may have been

:41:32. > :41:37.What happened to you both after being arrested?

:41:38. > :41:41.Erm, there was a period before they, the CPS decided

:41:42. > :41:50.We were refused bail at the Magistrates' Court and put

:41:51. > :41:58.on remand for five days but that got, that got overturned on appeal.

:41:59. > :42:00.But since the arrest, what has been the impact

:42:01. > :42:04.Clearly, five days in jail is not what you would have

:42:05. > :42:09.After we were arrested, the first thing was,

:42:10. > :42:12.we had to sign in at the police station every day.

:42:13. > :42:14.And then we had a curfew between midnight and 6am.

:42:15. > :42:16.Every time the doorbell rings, it is the police,

:42:17. > :42:22.It's been really difficult, very stressful.

:42:23. > :42:26.And how has your son reacted to the...

:42:27. > :42:30.Because of his actions, what has happened to you in the meantime?

:42:31. > :42:33.We haven't really been able to talk too much to him about it.

:42:34. > :42:35.I mean, we really want to see him face-to-face.

:42:36. > :42:44.Well, when he was inside, he couldn't really speak very openly.

:42:45. > :42:48.Yeah, we've had a little chat and I think he thinks that's

:42:49. > :42:51.horrible, that the system should not be doing this to us.

:42:52. > :42:56.What about what he's done and the impact it had both of you?

:42:57. > :42:58.Yeah, it's been horrible and extremely upsetting.

:42:59. > :43:05.Well, I think I'd like him to sit here and you can ask him that

:43:06. > :43:07.himself but I'm sure he does to a degree.

:43:08. > :43:12.You don't sound very convinced, if you don't mind me saying.

:43:13. > :43:15.Well, I don't know how to answer that because I haven't had that

:43:16. > :43:19."Jack, do you feel really upset at what that has caused to us?"

:43:20. > :43:22.Yeah, I think he is upset by that but he's also motivated

:43:23. > :43:24.by his own internal things and what can I do?

:43:25. > :43:27.He's a 21-year-old, quite confident, arrogant, you know, pig-headed lad.

:43:28. > :43:31.And on a phone call, on a crackly line, it is really hard

:43:32. > :43:33.to have an in-depth conversation about how upset his

:43:34. > :43:39.How did you feel when you read the statement your son had given

:43:40. > :43:42.where he said he hated you, his parents, for the sake of Allah,

:43:43. > :43:45.hated you his parents, for the sake of Allah

:43:46. > :43:48.because you are non-believers and called on you to convert to Islam?

:43:49. > :43:56.I, I haven't tackled him directly about it.

:43:57. > :43:59.A lot of those strange things that Jack has said in interviews

:44:00. > :44:03.or sometimes on Facebook, sometimes, we've wondered,

:44:04. > :44:05.is it, is he being forced to say these things?

:44:06. > :44:08.Is he in a situation where people are overhearing

:44:09. > :44:12.what he is saying and he has to, in order to kind of save his

:44:13. > :44:14.life, he has to sort of say certain things?

:44:15. > :44:24.Sometimes he would write messages that he wouldn't say out loud.

:44:25. > :44:27.So he would say certain things out loud that sounded strange.

:44:28. > :44:29.And I thought, he's in an Internet cafe, he's being overheard,

:44:30. > :44:32.he's having to say these things, and then what he really thought,

:44:33. > :44:36.he would send in a text message, during the same conversation.

:44:37. > :44:41.A lot of the religious things he said would be said out loud.

:44:42. > :44:43.He narrowly survived an air strike with just a scratch.

:44:44. > :44:48.Everyone is going to die on their day, whether it

:44:49. > :44:50.is by a drone strike, a Muslim understands that

:44:51. > :44:54.that his life is between the hands of Allah so if they want to bomb me,

:44:55. > :44:58.Yeah, I've heard a lot of Christians say that same message.

:44:59. > :45:01.But what do you think about the fact he was almost killed?

:45:02. > :45:04.We've been living with this for three years, every day.

:45:05. > :45:07.You're waiting for a phone call saying your son's been killed.

:45:08. > :45:11.Our home affairs correspondent has been in touch with

:45:12. > :45:15.He reports that it appears Jack has little desire

:45:16. > :45:29.Well, he wants to get out of where he is.

:45:30. > :45:34.We would like him to come back to the UK but, erm,

:45:35. > :45:37.I don't think he would be, I don't think he

:45:38. > :45:44.I think he wants to live in an Islamic country.

:45:45. > :45:48.He has been told where he is being held at the moment that he would be

:45:49. > :45:51.released to the British so I think he's resigned himself to the fact

:45:52. > :45:53.that he will come back here for questioning.

:45:54. > :45:56.And I think ideally, that would happen.

:45:57. > :46:00.He would be able to tell his side of the story.

:46:01. > :46:04.He wouldn't be on the run for the rest of his life and then,

:46:05. > :46:11.once he's cleared his name, then he can live his life

:46:12. > :46:14.as he chooses, probably, in his mind, in an Islamic country.

:46:15. > :46:16.In your heart of hearts, do you think you will

:46:17. > :46:26.Well, up until then, we thought, we didn't know

:46:27. > :46:35.The odds against him surviving were probably quite slim.

:46:36. > :46:38.Whereas now, we think, yeah, he is alive, he has

:46:39. > :46:40.survived, miraculously, and we will see him again.

:46:41. > :46:52.It's pretty hard to let go of that idea but there were many times

:46:53. > :46:56.when I reached the point where I thought, no, that's it.

:46:57. > :46:59.And you know, he was such a funny boy and such a nice kid, really,

:47:00. > :47:02.he would bend over backwards to help people all the time.

:47:03. > :47:04.You must have had conversations about, what could we

:47:05. > :47:08.Was it something to do with the way we brought him up?

:47:09. > :47:11.For three years, you're constantly looking out,

:47:12. > :47:17.Did I not spend enough time with him?"

:47:18. > :47:20.I spent a lot of time with him and there was nothing there that

:47:21. > :47:23.made me think that the media stereotype of him, you know,

:47:24. > :47:26.And I don't believe that media stereotype.

:47:27. > :47:34.Whatever discipline you can do, yeah, we were really strict on him.

:47:35. > :47:36.But strict in terms of behaviour, like, respect of women,

:47:37. > :47:40.That is how I was raised, in a very multicultural

:47:41. > :47:42.society, where we had a lot of tolerance for people.

:47:43. > :47:45.You know, I think the values I was raised with as a Canadian

:47:46. > :47:51.The Queen is on our bills so I share the same British values.

:47:52. > :47:53.And he was raised with those values and I think

:47:54. > :48:01.Thank you both very much for talking to us.

:48:02. > :48:04.The Foreign Office says: "The UK advises against all travel

:48:05. > :48:16.As all UK consular services are suspended in Syria

:48:17. > :48:18.and greatly limited in Iraq, it is extremely difficult to confirm

:48:19. > :48:20.the whereabouts and status of British nationals in

:48:21. > :48:27.Still to come before ten o'clock. Been credible account of the British

:48:28. > :48:30.Transport Police offers a faced all three of the London Bridge

:48:31. > :48:37.terrorists during their rampage and tells the BBC how the Condon printed

:48:38. > :48:42.-- confronted them armed only with a baton.

:48:43. > :48:46.The Government is to rule later this morning on whether to give the green

:48:47. > :48:54.light to Rupert Murdoch's proposed takeover of Sky.

:48:55. > :49:01.Opponents say it will give him too much power in the media.

:49:02. > :49:04.We can speak now to Rachel Cunliffe, who is comment and features editor

:49:05. > :49:06.at City AM, a business newspaper 'with personality' it says

:49:07. > :49:09.on its website; and Dr Evan Harris, joint chief executive

:49:10. > :49:11.of the campaign group Hacked Off, an organisation that campaigns

:49:12. > :49:14.for what it calls a 'free and accountable press'.

:49:15. > :49:21.Rachel, what's going on? This is mostly about Rupert Murdoch trying

:49:22. > :49:27.to grow his media empire and obtain full control over Sky. This is a

:49:28. > :49:32.little bit confusing because Rupert Murdoch owns Fox, the company tried

:49:33. > :49:36.to take over Sky but Sky is very much associated with the murder can

:49:37. > :49:41.buy so he is very much on both sides. Fox owns 39% over Sky at the

:49:42. > :49:47.moment and they are trying to obtain the other 61% of shares in a deal

:49:48. > :49:52.worth ?11.7 billion. This has made a lot of people very upset. And here

:49:53. > :49:57.is one of them. There are rules in this country that say broadcast

:49:58. > :50:02.media is very sensitive because it reaches into people's houses and

:50:03. > :50:05.therefore it not only ought to be able to reality, a range of views,

:50:06. > :50:10.they must not be political control in this country like there is in the

:50:11. > :50:15.United States. So we need to have that plurality, but share of

:50:16. > :50:19.ownership. Many voices, in other words. BBC, ITV and the Sky,

:50:20. > :50:23.separate from newspapers. Which we would still have if 21st-century Fox

:50:24. > :50:27.took over the whole of Sky. The worry is if Sky News had the same

:50:28. > :50:33.editorial line influenced indirectly by Rupert Murdoch, the owner of the

:50:34. > :50:35.Sun newspaper, the Sunday Times and the Times, it's too much for

:50:36. > :50:43.somebody who gets to meet Prime Minister whenever he wants.

:50:44. > :50:46.Newspaper circulation is falling. It is growing online. The overall share

:50:47. > :50:49.for those newspapers are still the highest and very high. That is your

:50:50. > :50:55.main worry? That is not the main worry. I thought you might have

:50:56. > :50:59.started with the main worry. The order in which Rachel raised it. The

:51:00. > :51:05.main worry is whether James Murdoch is a fit and proper person for

:51:06. > :51:10.corporate governance. Rupert Murdoch's son? Yes, he would be the

:51:11. > :51:13.chairman of Sky and the 100% owner of Sky because he's the chief

:51:14. > :51:16.executive of 21st-century Fox which would be the owning, holding

:51:17. > :51:19.companies and he would be running it. Whether it is appropriate in

:51:20. > :51:23.terms of corporate governance for somebody like him who is alleged to

:51:24. > :51:28.have been involved in covering up extensive criminal wrongdoing at the

:51:29. > :51:35.News of the World. Alleged. It is alleged. Innocent until proven

:51:36. > :51:38.otherwise. Yes, we want the truth. You may remember and your viewers

:51:39. > :51:42.will, the Leveson Inquiry was set up to look at this, one part was going

:51:43. > :51:46.to get the truth, had to be delayed until after criminal trials, which

:51:47. > :51:50.is right, you do not want it public and to make those trials unfair.

:51:51. > :51:53.This Secretary of State sitting in judgment on this bid has delayed the

:51:54. > :51:57.second part of that inquiry and has announced an intention to stop it

:51:58. > :52:04.looking at whether there was a cover-up and whether it was police

:52:05. > :52:08.corruption. It is astonishing that Secretary of State would on one side

:52:09. > :52:12.of the bid... It feels like we have had dozens of inquiries... I don't

:52:13. > :52:14.want to go over old ground. In terms of the Culture Secretary today,

:52:15. > :52:20.Karen Bradley, the decision she makes is whether to give the

:52:21. > :52:25.go-ahead to Rupert Murdoch and his takeover of the whole of Sky, or to

:52:26. > :52:28.push it on for further investigation. Things she can do if

:52:29. > :52:33.she decides not to wave it ahead. One of them as she can move it on to

:52:34. > :52:36.the Competition and Markets Authority which will do an in-depth

:52:37. > :52:39.investigation over six months, really looking into in particular

:52:40. > :52:43.the media plurality issues and whether giving too much broadcasting

:52:44. > :52:47.and media power to one company had one family is against the public

:52:48. > :52:52.interest. The other thing that she could do which is less extreme than

:52:53. > :52:56.that is say, yes, but with certain caveats, and those would include

:52:57. > :53:00.things like spinning off Sky News and making sure that that keeps its

:53:01. > :53:04.editorial integrity, which I think is very much an issue for British

:53:05. > :53:07.viewers who don't want to see our broadcasters going down the route of

:53:08. > :53:13.something like Fox News, which I think is very unpopular in Britain.

:53:14. > :53:18.What does Hacked Off want? I think it's likely if Ofcom say there are

:53:19. > :53:21.issues that she will say I am willing to accept undertakings,

:53:22. > :53:25.promises from the Murdochs but I don't think they are worth the

:53:26. > :53:28.tabloid newsprint they are written on. We cannot find a single example

:53:29. > :53:34.of the Murdochs keeping to the promises they made. They promised

:53:35. > :53:37.that the Times editor would be independent. We know that successive

:53:38. > :53:42.editors have been sacked. They could be sanctions in place. They do not

:53:43. > :53:45.appear to be. Rupert Murdoch has the ability to see a Prime Minister like

:53:46. > :53:50.Theresa May whenever he wants in secret meetings. The Fox people have

:53:51. > :53:54.met the Chancellor or Prime Minister ten times in just a short 15 month

:53:55. > :54:01.period, more than any other private company. People can make up their

:54:02. > :54:05.own minds. I'm not sure that is right. Had there not been this camp

:54:06. > :54:08.done continuous campaign of support for this government by this

:54:09. > :54:11.newspaper who knows what the result would have been. The concern is it

:54:12. > :54:13.must be done properly and he seemed to be done properly and we need the

:54:14. > :54:17.truth before these people are allowed more power. Thank you for

:54:18. > :54:24.joining us. We will get the decision today. There you are. We will bring

:54:25. > :54:27.you the statement on the news channel and we expect at 11:30am.

:54:28. > :54:30.The first police officer to face all three London Bridge attackers

:54:31. > :54:33.during their rampage has been speaking out.

:54:34. > :54:37.PC Wayne Marques describes confronting them armed only

:54:38. > :54:40.with a baton and how he tried to leave his last messages

:54:41. > :54:44.This guy is on the floor, pleading for his life.

:54:45. > :54:46.The first attacker, without any mercy, stands over him

:54:47. > :55:00.I take my baton with my right hand, I rack it, full extension,

:55:01. > :55:07.I take a deep breath, and I charge him.

:55:08. > :55:12.I try to take the first one out in one go.

:55:13. > :55:14.I swung as hard as I can, everything behind it.

:55:15. > :55:18.I'm aiming straight for his head, and I'm swinging like that,

:55:19. > :55:24.in horizontal motion, straight for his head.

:55:25. > :55:28.Then, while I am fighting the first one, I get a massive whack

:55:29. > :55:33.I thought maybe it was a metal pole or bar at first.

:55:34. > :55:36.Afterwards, I realised it was a knife that the

:55:37. > :55:43.As soon as I get the whack on the side of my head,

:55:44. > :55:48.my right eye goes dark, vision goes completely out of it.

:55:49. > :55:51.And I am staring at them with one eye, the baton in my hand,

:55:52. > :55:54.and the three of them are staring at me.

:55:55. > :55:58.And we are in like some kind of like Mexican stand-off,

:55:59. > :56:05.it's almost like a surreal cowboy movie, getting ready to draw.

:56:06. > :56:10.And I'm just getting ready for them to rush me.

:56:11. > :56:15.We were staring at each other for anywhere between ten and 30 seconds.

:56:16. > :56:22.I couldn't tell you why we were staring at each other.

:56:23. > :56:26.Maybe they were waiting for me to go down or to bleed out.

:56:27. > :56:29.But all I know is I was staring at them, I was going towards them

:56:30. > :56:42.But for some reason, they didn't come to rush me.

:56:43. > :56:47.The officer that's holding my hand, I call his name two, three times,

:56:48. > :56:49.and he lowers the radio and comes in close.

:56:50. > :56:56.I remember spitting it out, so I could get my message out.

:56:57. > :57:00.I started giving him my last messages to my family, my partner.

:57:01. > :57:07.He's like, "No, mate, you are going to do it yourself".

:57:08. > :57:10.I said his name one more time and said, "Listen,

:57:11. > :57:14.just do it, just do it, just give it".

:57:15. > :57:17.And as I was saying that, the last little bit of light went,

:57:18. > :57:24.But I still think about the eight people that I wasn't able to help.

:57:25. > :57:28.Had I got there sooner, I don't know.

:57:29. > :57:44.But I would just like to think that I did what I did to keep the people

:57:45. > :57:50.that I saw being attacked and being hurt, keep them

:57:51. > :57:57.alive, keep them out of danger as best I could.

:57:58. > :58:05.PC Wayne Marques. Still to come in the next hour, we

:58:06. > :58:07.get the reaction to the expected appointment of a retired Court of

:58:08. > :58:12.Appeal judge to leave the public inquiry into the Grenfell fire. In a

:58:13. > :58:17.few minutes the latest news and sport but the weather is next with

:58:18. > :58:22.Sarah Keith-Lucas. We have lots of rain in the forecast

:58:23. > :58:25.in the next 24 hours, we can have a break from watering the garden is in

:58:26. > :58:30.the next couple of days as things look unsettled. We have some heavy

:58:31. > :58:34.rain across parts of Scotland. This is the scene in Kingspan in Fife

:58:35. > :58:37.coming in from one of our weather Watchers. We have persistent rain

:58:38. > :58:40.and this radar picture shows the rain across Scotland and northern

:58:41. > :58:44.England. It's not raining everywhere, we have some glimmers of

:58:45. > :58:48.sunshine breaking through the cloud in Felixstowe in Suffolk will stop

:58:49. > :58:52.here is how it is looking there. Some blue sky, a little sunshine but

:58:53. > :58:57.across many parts of the country it's cloudy and pretty damp. Heavy

:58:58. > :59:00.rain across the north-east of England into south-east Scotland,

:59:01. > :59:06.difficult driving conditions with a lot of water and spray on the roads.

:59:07. > :59:09.That rain will edge into northern Ireland with drizzling rain for

:59:10. > :59:14.parts of Wales and south-west England. This is 4pm, mostly July,

:59:15. > :59:19.still through parts of the Midlands, the south-east of England and East

:59:20. > :59:23.Anglia. 19 or 20 degrees where you see brightness breaking through the

:59:24. > :59:29.cloud, not much brightness further north, drizzling rain continuing for

:59:30. > :59:35.Northern England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, not just the rain causing

:59:36. > :59:40.problems but brisk winds from the north-east. With the wind and rain

:59:41. > :59:42.it feels cool, just 13 or 14 degrees. Moving through into the

:59:43. > :59:47.evening and overnight we will keep the rain over parts of Scotland,

:59:48. > :59:50.northern England, Northern Ireland, Wales and south-west and it will

:59:51. > :59:54.ease in intensity. The rain not as heavy overnight temperatures in

:59:55. > :59:58.Glasgow, 13 degrees, not different from the daytime maximum

:59:59. > :00:02.temperature. Through the day tomorrow a similar day, again quite

:00:03. > :00:07.cloudy, drizzling rain across North and western parts of the country,

:00:08. > :00:10.the format as heavy but we could see scattered showers developing towards

:00:11. > :00:13.the south-east and perhaps the odd rumble of thunder. It looks like an

:00:14. > :00:18.improving picture heading towards the weekend. We will start to see

:00:19. > :00:22.this weather front moving south-east and a rich of high-pressure moving

:00:23. > :00:25.in behind which will quieten things down. Perhaps some rain in the far

:00:26. > :00:29.south-east at first on Saturday and a little rain in the far north-west

:00:30. > :00:33.but for much of the country, not a bad day, temperatures up to 23

:00:34. > :00:38.degrees where the sunnier spells and lighter winds during the weekend

:00:39. > :00:42.too, that theme continuing into Sunday. Another largely dry day with

:00:43. > :00:44.high-pressure, a few showers in the north-west, feeling pleasant,

:00:45. > :00:47.temperatures around where they should be this time of year, 23

:00:48. > :00:55.degrees. Hello, good morning. I'm Victoria

:00:56. > :00:56.Derbyshire. Welcome to the programme.

:00:57. > :00:58.A retired judge, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, will lead the inquiry

:00:59. > :01:02.We'll ask if his appointment will lead to the survivors

:01:03. > :01:05.and residents of North Kensington getting the answers they need.

:01:06. > :01:07.When we're talking about this public inquiry, there's

:01:08. > :01:11.This public inquiry has already started but we haven't even been

:01:12. > :01:13.given the opportunity to come together as one yet.

:01:14. > :01:16.We need and demand to be part of every single decision made

:01:17. > :01:29.We've heard exclusively from the parents of a 21-year-old -

:01:30. > :01:32.who became known as Jihadi Jack after travelling to Syria -

:01:33. > :01:35.about their efforts to bring him home.

:01:36. > :01:38.We thought now he'd finally made it out of ISIS-controlled territory

:01:39. > :01:47.You can see the full version of the interview our programme page

:01:48. > :02:01.And a baby boy was circumcised without his mother's consent -

:02:02. > :02:04.She spent four years trying to get the authorities to take action, and

:02:05. > :02:07.we will bring you her story. Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

:02:08. > :02:18.with a summary of today's news. A retired Court of Appeal judge is

:02:19. > :02:24.today expected to be appointed to lead the public enquiry into the

:02:25. > :02:28.Grenfell Tower disaster. Sir Martin Moore Bic spent more than 20 years

:02:29. > :02:30.as a commercial judge and that the Court of Appeal until his retirement

:02:31. > :02:35.last year. The news came after police said at least 80 people were

:02:36. > :02:40.now believed to have died in the top... Fire, but the final death

:02:41. > :02:41.toll is not expected to be known until the end of the year.

:02:42. > :02:45.Theresa May will face a major test of whether she has enough authority

:02:46. > :02:48.to stay in power as MPs vote on the Queen's Speech later today.

:02:49. > :02:49.With the support of the Democratic Unionists,

:02:50. > :02:52.the Government is expected to pass its plans for the next

:02:53. > :02:54.Parliament, after narrowly surviving a vote last night on changes

:02:55. > :02:58.Jeremy Corbyn is calling on MPs to support his plans

:02:59. > :03:04.Police in Australia have charged one of the most senior

:03:05. > :03:06.Roman Catholic Cardinals, George Pell, with sexually

:03:07. > :03:11.Cardinal Pell is in charge of the Vatican's finances

:03:12. > :03:15.and is considered to rank third in the hierarchy of the church.

:03:16. > :03:18.He is accused of multiple offences dating back

:03:19. > :03:22.to the 1970s - charges he's strenuously denied.

:03:23. > :03:26.I am looking forward finally to having my day in court.

:03:27. > :03:42.The whole idea of sexual abuse is abhorrent to me.

:03:43. > :03:44.Talks over resuming power-sharing at Stormont remain stalled,

:03:45. > :03:47.with only hours to go until the deadline.

:03:48. > :03:50.If no deal is reached to restore the devolved government

:03:51. > :03:52.by 4pm this afternoon, Northern Ireland faces the prospect

:03:53. > :04:17.It will be announced today whether 21st in the Fox, owned by Rupert

:04:18. > :04:21.Murdoch, can be taken -- can take over Sky. Opponents say any deal

:04:22. > :04:24.will give him too much power in the UK media.

:04:25. > :04:34.A mother has described the distress of finding out her baby son had been

:04:35. > :04:39.circumcised without her consent. She has tried to get the authorities to

:04:40. > :04:42.take action for four years. The boy was circumcised in 2013 when he was

:04:43. > :04:47.apparently staying with his paternal grandparents. Three people have been

:04:48. > :04:56.arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm with intent. More on

:04:57. > :05:02.this story shortly. Victoria will speak to a representative from the

:05:03. > :05:14.campaign group Men Do Complain. . I'll be back at half past ten.

:05:15. > :05:23.Let's get more from Hugh Woozencroft now at the BBC Sport Centre.

:05:24. > :05:29.Warren Gatland has made several changes to his team ahead of the

:05:30. > :05:32.second Test against New Zealand in Wellington on Saturday. He knows

:05:33. > :05:36.that anything other than a win means they won't win this series. Sam

:05:37. > :05:45.Warburton replaces Peter O'Mahoney in the back row. George Cruise drops

:05:46. > :05:53.out altogether. Courtney Lawes is on the bench. Owen Farrell has a start

:05:54. > :05:57.at inside centre, linking up with Jonny Sexton, who will start at

:05:58. > :06:02.fly-half. They haven't started together, but they have had quite a

:06:03. > :06:06.bit of time together. Their combination against the Crusaders

:06:07. > :06:12.was good, and they had a bit of time together last week as well. It gives

:06:13. > :06:18.us two more kicking options on the right foot. And we have left foot

:06:19. > :06:21.options with Jonathan Davies and Elliot Daly as well. We are happy

:06:22. > :06:27.with the mix. Dame Katherine Grainger will

:06:28. > :06:33.officially become the new chair of UK Sport in July, but in her first

:06:34. > :06:42.interview, she has told the BBC she has huge concerns over athlete

:06:43. > :06:45.welfare, given the recent bullying accusations in several sports. There

:06:46. > :06:48.are concerns, without a doubt. I don't think anyone is pretending

:06:49. > :06:53.that aren't. I think we have to address it. Everyone is under

:06:54. > :06:58.pressure, so athletes want to deliver, coaches are under pressure,

:06:59. > :07:01.performance executives and chief executives. There is a situation of,

:07:02. > :07:04.how good can we be and how many medals can we deliver? And the

:07:05. > :07:09.future of our sport is dependent on this.

:07:10. > :07:15.Jade Jones is on course to win an impressive career grand slam of

:07:16. > :07:22.titles in tae kwon do. She got into the semifinals in South Korea. That

:07:23. > :07:29.guarantees are at least a bronze. She has never won a gold before in

:07:30. > :07:33.the competition. Her team-mates, Bradley Sinden, is also guaranteed

:07:34. > :07:37.at least bronze. I am buzzing with my performance. It was a real mental

:07:38. > :07:42.battle today. I think people don't realise how hard it is, being on the

:07:43. > :07:49.top, and then people say, you always go out in the quarters. It is hard,

:07:50. > :07:52.being expected to be performed, and I am just happy that it shows that

:07:53. > :07:57.when my mind is on it I can be mentally strong.

:07:58. > :08:01.Leading jockey Michelle Payne has been banned for four weeks for

:08:02. > :08:04.taking a banned substance. She is the only female jockey to win the

:08:05. > :08:13.prestigious Melbourne cup, and she took a weight suppressant. She

:08:14. > :08:16.pleaded guilty at her enquiry and said she took full responsibility

:08:17. > :08:18.for her actions. That is all for now, more later in the hour.

:08:19. > :08:22.A retired high court judge has been appointed to lead the inquiry

:08:23. > :08:25.into the Grenfell Tower fire - and he's making the headlines

:08:26. > :08:27.already because of what the Times calls his controversial record

:08:28. > :08:33.We'll bring you some facts about him in a moment.

:08:34. > :08:36.Yesterday in our programme back in North Kensington some

:08:37. > :08:38.Grenfell Tower survivors and residents talked

:08:39. > :08:44.about their faith in the forthcoming inquiry.

:08:45. > :08:51.And what needed to be change when it came to listening to their views.

:08:52. > :08:55.You talk about trust and trying to rebuild trust, and the importance of

:08:56. > :09:00.that. These people wrote to the Prime Minister the day before

:09:01. > :09:03.yesterday to ask and make requests about the public enquiry. The Prime

:09:04. > :09:08.Minister didn't reply to that letter. The Prime Minister went to

:09:09. > :09:12.the daily Telegraph and told them she wasn't going to uphold one of

:09:13. > :09:19.the requests in that letter, so how can you talk about trust being

:09:20. > :09:24.rebuilt? Were talking about written, a powerful country, here. We're

:09:25. > :09:28.talking about the law. That has to be changed right now. Procedure has

:09:29. > :09:34.to be changed right now. This is not going to take a few shows or

:09:35. > :09:41.meetings, this is years of work. This is years of work. I'm told the

:09:42. > :09:46.housing minister is here, and he has agreed to be with us today after

:09:47. > :09:54.pressure from residents, so I know you have questions for him. Hello.

:09:55. > :10:02.Hi, I'm Victoria. Take a seat. Thank you very much for giving us your

:10:03. > :10:06.time. Please, stop hiding from us. It is international now. Stop

:10:07. > :10:12.hiding. I want everything in the table, black and white. -- on the

:10:13. > :10:17.table. There are moves already being made, public all right -- the public

:10:18. > :10:20.enquiry has already started, and we need and demand to be part of every

:10:21. > :10:26.single decision made in that public enquiry.

:10:27. > :10:31.It is worth letting you know that the housing minister who was sent to

:10:32. > :10:36.our programme after an earlier decision that no one would be

:10:37. > :10:38.available, he spent many hours talking to residents in private

:10:39. > :10:39.after our programme came off air. So what do we know about the retired

:10:40. > :10:43.appeal court judge who's been chosen to lead the public inquiry

:10:44. > :10:51.into the Grenfell disaster? Sir Martin Moore-Bick,

:10:52. > :10:53.who's 70, was born in Wales He specialised in commercial law

:10:54. > :10:57.before spending more than twenty years as a judge at the high court

:10:58. > :11:05.and the court of appeal. to rehouse a single mother of five,

:11:06. > :11:11.living with HIV and diabetes, some At the time her lawyer described

:11:12. > :11:14.the decision as "social The ruling was later overturned

:11:15. > :11:20.by the Supreme Court. He also ruled that a Chinese-born

:11:21. > :11:25.man who tied up and robbed two women in their home could be deported,

:11:26. > :11:27.even though he had Married with four children,

:11:28. > :11:35.his brother is retired Army Who's Who lists his

:11:36. > :11:51.interests as "early music, Clive Coleman explained the

:11:52. > :11:56.significance of the appointment. He has a classic CV of a successful

:11:57. > :12:01.Court of Appeal judge. He was called to the bar in 1986, served as a

:12:02. > :12:05.deputy High Court judge and was then a High Court judge, serving mainly

:12:06. > :12:09.in the commercial Court, meaning he dealt with technical engineering

:12:10. > :12:13.evidence in many cases, which is a qualification for Grenfell. He was

:12:14. > :12:17.appointed to the Court of Appeal in 2005 and retired last year. For the

:12:18. > :12:21.last two years of that period he was vice president of the Court of

:12:22. > :12:24.Appeal's civil division. He is married with children and is an

:12:25. > :12:29.establishment figure, and his brother is a retired general. Why is

:12:30. > :12:35.he described in one newspaper today as controversial? He went to the

:12:36. > :12:39.Court of Appeal in 2005, and he left last year, so he was there for 11

:12:40. > :12:44.years or so. This morning in the newspapers, one of his cases has

:12:45. > :12:52.been picked up, a case in 2014 where he oversaw a ruling where a woman

:12:53. > :12:56.who lived in Westminster, a single mother with five children, was

:12:57. > :13:02.rehoused by the council some 50 miles away, in Bletchley near Milton

:13:03. > :13:08.Keynes. She disputed that decision, said it was a new -- unlawful. When

:13:09. > :13:13.it got to the Court of Appeal, he had to scrutinise whether the

:13:14. > :13:17.decision taken by Westminster Council, and councils can rehouse

:13:18. > :13:20.people out of area in certain circumstances, was lawful, and he

:13:21. > :13:27.decided it was. The reason the case is being looked at is an

:13:28. > :13:31.illustration or perhaps some controversy. Some people are nodding

:13:32. > :13:34.at that as perhaps a perceived bias against vulnerable families.

:13:35. > :13:37.Everyone I have spoken to has said, look at the entire career. This was

:13:38. > :13:46.one decision where he was applying the law. After the case, the

:13:47. > :13:49.solicitor said: The judgment could have dire consequences for

:13:50. > :13:53.vulnerable families across the country. He said, it gives the green

:13:54. > :13:57.light for councils to engage in social cleansing of the poor on a

:13:58. > :14:01.mass scale. When you have comments like that, you can see why some

:14:02. > :14:05.people would think that is a controversial judge in relation to

:14:06. > :14:10.this particular enquiry. What about the terms of reference of the

:14:11. > :14:17.enquiry - who decides that? It will be decided by the Government. Let me

:14:18. > :14:19.say why I think they have picked this particular judge. First, he has

:14:20. > :14:23.been in the commercial court. As a barrister, he was involved in

:14:24. > :14:28.shipping cases where he would have had to deal with complex engineering

:14:29. > :14:31.matters - wire ship sank, for instance. Although they are

:14:32. > :14:38.different in nature, they are similar in terms of complexity, and

:14:39. > :14:45.you need a judge you can get their head around that. You also need a

:14:46. > :14:48.judge who will be good in communicating with the families,

:14:49. > :14:53.empathetic. Heather Hallett got a lot of plaudits for how she handled

:14:54. > :14:56.the 7/7 enquiry because of her emotional intelligence, if you like,

:14:57. > :15:00.and how she dealt sensitively with the issues and the families, and you

:15:01. > :15:06.need that as well. I have spoken to friends, lawyers who know Martin

:15:07. > :15:11.Moore Bick, and they say he is a person of unfailing courtesy, and

:15:12. > :15:15.one who will listen, and he will change his mind if he finds evidence

:15:16. > :15:16.that the decision he has taken is the wrong one.

:15:17. > :15:19.We can speak to Jo Maugham QC, a barrister and director

:15:20. > :15:21.of the Good Law Project, who has been providing free

:15:22. > :15:27.legal support for victims of the fire since last week.

:15:28. > :15:34.Hello to you. Have you heard of Sir Martin Moore pick, and if you

:15:35. > :15:41.haven't, does it matter? It doesn't matter. The Government is fishing in

:15:42. > :15:48.a very shallow pool of candidates. They are all white and come from

:15:49. > :15:50.privileged backgrounds. Judicial diversity is fundamentally

:15:51. > :15:54.nonexistent, so the Government in circumstances like this has to

:15:55. > :15:58.communicate to victims at Grenfell why it has chosen this particular

:15:59. > :16:04.person. If you are a victim, you want to hear from the Government

:16:05. > :16:10.what question they have asked that has Sir Martin as the answer. You

:16:11. > :16:15.can't take too much from focusing on particular decisions that a judge

:16:16. > :16:21.has made, looked at in isolation. We don't know about other cases where

:16:22. > :16:25.Sir Martin may have decided and they were favourable to those who would

:16:26. > :16:32.seek rehousing. I am distracted, there is a fire alarm. I can hear

:16:33. > :16:42.that. Where are you? I am in a studio at Millbank. If you want to

:16:43. > :16:50.leave, please do. I think it has stopped. On our programme yesterday,

:16:51. > :16:53.we heard a lot about trust, this trust and a lack of faith in the

:16:54. > :16:59.establishment, from politicians right through. Some kind of

:17:00. > :17:02.Government statement, then, which is what you have suggested, would seem

:17:03. > :17:06.to be the least that should be done here to explain this decision.

:17:07. > :17:14.I think that's right. I think what people want is to be heard, your

:17:15. > :17:17.viewers will have heard that from the clips played just before I came

:17:18. > :17:22.on air. People will want to feel they are involved in the process. Is

:17:23. > :17:27.there going to be discussion on the Grenfell community leaders about the

:17:28. > :17:29.nature of reference, are the residents of Grenfell Tower, family

:17:30. > :17:33.members of the victims of the disaster going to be consulted on

:17:34. > :17:36.the choice of barrister who represents families and victims in

:17:37. > :17:43.the inquiry? Is government really going to think about the

:17:44. > :17:47.difficulties that families of Grenfell face in trusting an

:17:48. > :17:51.establishment that we know has let them down? That is fundamentally the

:17:52. > :17:54.problem. What you've got a hope is the government really focuses on

:17:55. > :17:59.that. These inquiries that have the capacity to heal also have the

:18:00. > :18:06.capacity to exacerbate harm and distrust. I desperately hope that is

:18:07. > :18:09.not what happens here. Briefly, tell us about some of the com obviously

:18:10. > :18:14.without giving private details, but some of the areas you are helping

:18:15. > :18:18.local people with. The particular issue I have been focused on is

:18:19. > :18:23.helping in particular Muslim families recover the bodies of

:18:24. > :18:31.family members who died in the tragedy. The police have been

:18:32. > :18:34.conducting, quite properly, a very careful and methodical exercise in

:18:35. > :18:43.trying to establish exactly what happened. But particularly if you

:18:44. > :18:47.are a Muslim family or a Jewish family, it's important to get the

:18:48. > :18:52.remains backwardly. I'm not always convinced the police have been

:18:53. > :18:57.holding those two issues in proper balance. So, certainly over the

:18:58. > :18:59.weekend I threatened the Metropolitan Police with court

:19:00. > :19:04.proceedings and that caused the police to release a body that they

:19:05. > :19:07.had previously said was not available on the Monday and I am now

:19:08. > :19:12.working with another family in relation to a very similar case. So

:19:13. > :19:16.that threat of court proceedings led to the outcome that your family

:19:17. > :19:18.needed? That's certainly what the family

:19:19. > :19:25.think and for what it's worth it's what I think is well. Thank you very

:19:26. > :19:30.much. Jo Maugham, QC, who is a barrister and director of The Good

:19:31. > :19:35.Law Project. I think it has just been confirmed,

:19:36. > :19:42.bear with me, I am just getting on my tablet, that Sir Martin

:19:43. > :19:50.Moore-Bick is going to lead this public inquiry. Theresa May Justin

:19:51. > :19:55.-- just confirmed it, it will be led by Martin Moore-Bick. Adding, we

:19:56. > :19:58.must get to the truth of what happened, no stone will be left

:19:59. > :20:02.unturned by this inquiry. Theresa May says we must get to the truth of

:20:03. > :20:08.what happened, no stone will be left unturned by this inquiry Hachette

:20:09. > :20:11.confirms the employment of the retired judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick

:20:12. > :20:21.to lead the investigation. Mother talks of the dramatic moment

:20:22. > :20:22.she discovered her baby son had been circumcised without her consent. We

:20:23. > :20:25.will bring you this story. A court ruling is due

:20:26. > :20:27.in Northern Ireland this morning Unlike the rest of the UK abortion

:20:28. > :20:31.is illegal in almost all circumstance in Northern

:20:32. > :20:33.Ireland. Campaigners hope the ruling will be

:20:34. > :20:36.a step towards changing the law so women can have abortions in cases

:20:37. > :20:38.of rape, incest or fatal What's the law in Northern

:20:39. > :20:51.Ireland at the moment? Like you said, the law in Northern

:20:52. > :20:56.Ireland is completely different from the rest of the UK, much stricter,

:20:57. > :21:00.abortion is illegal in all most all circumstances the only time it is

:21:01. > :21:05.possible this when a woman's life is at risk or there is a serious or

:21:06. > :21:09.permanent risk to her mental or physical health. That means every

:21:10. > :21:13.year hundreds of women travel from Northern Ireland over to other parts

:21:14. > :21:17.of the UK to access abortion services. That costs them money,

:21:18. > :21:22.they have to pay to travel and pay for the abortion services.

:21:23. > :21:26.Campaigners argue that means that the very poorest women in Northern

:21:27. > :21:31.Ireland can't get abortions. Someone women risked prosecution by taking

:21:32. > :21:36.abortion pills. Just last week a cross-party group of MPs called on

:21:37. > :21:37.the UK Government to allow women from Northern Ireland to access

:21:38. > :21:46.abortion care in England and Wales. Faces an Appeal Court case, an

:21:47. > :21:50.Appeal Court judgment that we are waiting for, and it concerns

:21:51. > :21:57.abortions in circumstances of incest, rape and fatal foetal

:21:58. > :22:00.abnormality, where a baby will not survive outside pregnancy. This is

:22:01. > :22:03.an Appeal Court judgment because in 2015 the High Court ruled that

:22:04. > :22:11.abortion laws in Northern Ireland do breach women's human rights, and the

:22:12. > :22:13.judge said they should be allowed in the circumstances. But that was

:22:14. > :22:17.appealed and today we are waiting for the Appeal Court judgment. I've

:22:18. > :22:23.been in Belfast and met a woman at the centre of the case. She is

:22:24. > :22:25.called Sarah and it was the circumstances of her pregnancy that

:22:26. > :22:32.meant she became involved in this court case.

:22:33. > :22:45.I'm Catrin. Nice to meet you.

:22:46. > :22:51.It was just a few weeks after Sarah Ewart's wedding

:22:52. > :22:55.It was all planned and she was delighted.

:22:56. > :22:58.Everybody had talked about the 3D scans and we thought, we want to see

:22:59. > :23:02.It was private, it wasn't at our hospital.

:23:03. > :23:07.The sonographer had put the baby on the

:23:08. > :23:10.screen, she had started on the feet, legs, oh, you're having a wee

:23:11. > :23:13.girl, then she went up the body and when she got

:23:14. > :23:16.there was nothing from above the baby's eyes, basically.

:23:17. > :23:23.There was no skull or brain formation.

:23:24. > :23:25.Sarah's baby had anencephaly which occurs in about six

:23:26. > :23:32.There is no treatment and babies with it die

:23:33. > :23:35.before they're born or shortly after birth.

:23:36. > :23:40.The skull wasn't formed. There was nothing above that.

:23:41. > :23:44.So the baby wasn't going to be able to survive.

:23:45. > :23:48.As soon as it was cut from me, when the umbilical cord was cut,

:23:49. > :23:52.that's when baby would have passed away.

:23:53. > :23:54.When I realised the baby wasn't going to survive and how

:23:55. > :23:56.bad the condition was, I thought that I couldn't

:23:57. > :23:59.continue on for nine months, people asking me, when are

:24:00. > :24:17.To not have a baby at the end of it, I just felt like I couldn't go

:24:18. > :24:21.We didn't call it an abortion, we said we wanted a medical

:24:22. > :24:25.And they said, sorry, we can't help you.

:24:26. > :24:30.We were like, what do you mean you can't help?

:24:31. > :24:32.They said, sorry, with the law here, we

:24:33. > :24:39.You'd have to go abroad, you know, go across the water.

:24:40. > :24:42.Unlike the rest of the UK, abortion is illegal here in

:24:43. > :24:46.Northern Ireland in almost all circumstances.

:24:47. > :24:48.That meant that at 21 weeks pregnant, Sarah had to travel

:24:49. > :24:52.It's that experience that means she's

:24:53. > :24:57.What was the experience like, making that

:24:58. > :25:04.I should have been at home with my family around me, my friends

:25:05. > :25:13.What do you want to see from this court case?

:25:14. > :25:20.Well, politicians failed to help us and women like me,

:25:21. > :25:22.so we're hoping that we'll get the help

:25:23. > :25:27.Earlier I spoke to Grainne Teggart from Amnesty Northern Ireland,

:25:28. > :25:44.We want the court today to find that our abortion laws in Northern

:25:45. > :25:46.It's unfortunate and deeply regrettable,

:25:47. > :25:49.and also unacceptable that our politicians have failed

:25:50. > :25:50.to grapple with this issue and legislate for

:25:51. > :25:59.much and long overdue reform of our abortion laws.

:26:00. > :26:02.The court today, we're hoping, will agree that our laws

:26:03. > :26:04.breach women's rights, and then we will be

:26:05. > :26:05.calling on our government to

:26:06. > :26:08.urgently reform our laws and bring them in line with international

:26:09. > :26:15.But if the public really want a change in

:26:16. > :26:16.But if the public really wanted change,

:26:17. > :26:18.Northern Ireland politicians would have delivered that

:26:19. > :26:21.Successive opinion polls have clearly demonstrated that

:26:22. > :26:23.overwhelmingly the Northern Ireland public is behind reform of our

:26:24. > :26:26.Our politicians now need to reflect their constituents'

:26:27. > :26:28.views on this matter and bring our abortion laws

:26:29. > :26:32.Many people who believe what you are arguing in court today

:26:33. > :26:34.is wrong think that if the court agrees to

:26:35. > :26:36.abortion in the particular circumstances that

:26:37. > :26:39.then that will lead you to continue with

:26:40. > :26:41.abortion laws further in Northern Ireland.

:26:42. > :26:52.Abortion is a health care and human rights issue.

:26:53. > :26:56.Our laws need to respect and promote women's

:26:57. > :26:57.rights and also ensure that they

:26:58. > :26:59.have timely, free, safe and legal access to abortions when

:27:00. > :27:03.So that sounds like if you are successful today, then your campaign

:27:04. > :27:05.to get the law changed further continues.

:27:06. > :27:08.Amnesty is campaigning for abortion to be

:27:09. > :27:16.Abortion is a health care and human rights issue.

:27:17. > :27:18.It should not be dealt with through the criminal justice

:27:19. > :27:20.system the way our laws currently are.

:27:21. > :27:22.What is the punishment in Northern Ireland for an

:27:23. > :27:28.Abortion in Northern Ireland is illegal in almost every

:27:29. > :27:30.circumstance, and also carries the harshest criminal

:27:31. > :27:36.It means that for a woman seeking an abortion in circumstances

:27:37. > :27:39.outside of where her life or long-term physical and

:27:40. > :27:41.mental health are at risk, it carries a sentence of life

:27:42. > :27:48.Amnesty is working on this case today, but we're also

:27:49. > :27:51.working with a mother who procured abortion

:27:52. > :27:52.pills for her daughter and

:27:53. > :27:57.of the Public Prosecution Service to challenge the decision

:27:58. > :28:14.Grainne Teggart from Amnesty Northern Ireland. We will bring you

:28:15. > :28:19.the decision when it comes through. I want to bring some comments on the

:28:20. > :28:22.British Transport Police officer who confronted the terrorists at London

:28:23. > :28:28.Bridge. David texted to say colon when you see this movie interview

:28:29. > :28:31.with PC Wayne Marques who put his life on the line to save members of

:28:32. > :28:36.the public, he not only deserves a pay rise but in my view should also

:28:37. > :28:39.be awarded the Victoria Cross. Lynn says praise the public services to

:28:40. > :28:44.the hilt but don't give them a decent pay rise after seven years?

:28:45. > :28:49.It is beyond belief. Sonia said: so proud of this British Transport

:28:50. > :28:52.Police officer. Does he not deserve a pay rise? Thank you for those,

:28:53. > :28:56.keep them coming in. Still to come as the Defence

:28:57. > :29:00.Secretary says IS could be facing the endgame in the battle for Mosul,

:29:01. > :29:03.we will talk about what the result means for the future of what has

:29:04. > :29:06.been called the evil death cult. We will find out what the National

:29:07. > :29:10.crime agencies worried about the influence that island gangs from

:29:11. > :29:18.Albania have over the UK drugs trafficking market.

:29:19. > :29:24.It is nearly 10:30am. The latest news headlines.

:29:25. > :29:29.A retired Court of Appeal judge is today expected to be appointed

:29:30. > :29:31.to lead the public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster.

:29:32. > :29:34.Sir Martin Moore-Bick spent more than 20 years as a judge

:29:35. > :29:36.of the Commercial Court and Court of Appeal until his

:29:37. > :29:40.At least 80 people are now believed to have died in the fire,

:29:41. > :29:44.but police say the final number of dead won't be known until the end

:29:45. > :29:52.Theresa May will face a major test of whether she has enough authority

:29:53. > :29:56.to stay in power as MPs vote on the Queen's speech later today. With the

:29:57. > :30:00.support of the Democratic Unionists the government is expected to pass

:30:01. > :30:04.its plans for the next parliament after narrowly surviving a vote last

:30:05. > :30:07.night on changes to public sector pay. Jeremy Corbyn is calling on MPs

:30:08. > :30:10.to support his plans for the economy and on Brexit.

:30:11. > :30:18.Police in Australia have charged one of the most senior Roman Catholic

:30:19. > :30:23.cardinals George Pell with sexually abusing children. Cardinal Pell is

:30:24. > :30:27.in charge of the Vatican's finances and is considered to rank third in

:30:28. > :30:31.the hierarchy of the Church. He is accused of multiple offences dating

:30:32. > :30:37.back to the 1970s. Charges he strenuously denies. Talks over

:30:38. > :30:41.resuming power-sharing at Stormont remain stalled with only hours to go

:30:42. > :30:45.until the deadline. If no deal is reached to restore the devolved

:30:46. > :30:50.government by 4pm this afternoon Northern Ireland faces the prospect

:30:51. > :30:52.of direct rule from London. The National Crime Agency says it is

:30:53. > :30:57.increasingly concerned about the influence criminals from the

:30:58. > :30:58.Balkans, particularly violent gangs from Albania, have over the UK drug

:30:59. > :31:02.trafficking market. In its annual assessment

:31:03. > :31:04.on organised crime, the NCA says corrupt workers at ports

:31:05. > :31:06.and airports make it easier It also warns about the threat

:31:07. > :31:10.of cyber-crime from Join me for BBC Newsroom

:31:11. > :31:31.Live at 11 o'clock. Hugh is here with the sport.

:31:32. > :31:34.Warren Gatland has said he has had to make tough calls. They are

:31:35. > :31:45.looking for a lifeline against New Zealand, trailing the series. Owen

:31:46. > :31:50.Farrell starts at inside centre, meaning he will team up with Johnny

:31:51. > :31:52.Sexton, who has been named as fly half.

:31:53. > :32:01.Michelle Payne, the only female jockey to win the Melbourne cup, has

:32:02. > :32:04.been banned after testing positive for a banned substance.

:32:05. > :32:14.Jade Jones reach the world tae kwon do semifinals in Korea. That

:32:15. > :32:19.guarantees her at least a bronze. Dame Katherine Grainger, the

:32:20. > :32:22.incoming chair of UK Sport says she has huge concerns about athlete

:32:23. > :32:25.welfare, given the number of sporting bodies under the cloud of

:32:26. > :32:31.bullying allegations. That is all the sport for this morning,

:32:32. > :32:33.Victoria. More during newsroom live after 11am.

:32:34. > :32:35.Violent Albanian criminal gangs now have "considerable control" over

:32:36. > :32:37.UK drug trafficking, the National Crime Agency says.

:32:38. > :32:40.It's increasingly worried at the Albanians' high-profile

:32:41. > :32:52.It is a group that is small in number but big an impact. We have

:32:53. > :32:55.seen the emergence of violence, particularly around enforcing the

:32:56. > :32:59.drug trade in this group, and hence, we have a specific response with

:33:00. > :33:05.partners where we try the best we can to disrupt that. We have cases

:33:06. > :33:07.going through the courts, but it was the rise in violence that caused the

:33:08. > :33:17.most concern. Our home affairs correspondent

:33:18. > :33:26.Danny Shaw is here. Substantial profits can still be

:33:27. > :33:29.made by the groups who are marketing, selling and producing

:33:30. > :33:34.drugs. What the National Crime Agency I think is concerned about is

:33:35. > :33:37.this rise of Albanian gangsters into the scene, who are having a

:33:38. > :33:42.significant impact on the UK market. There are not great numbers of them,

:33:43. > :33:45.but they are having a disproportionate effect because of

:33:46. > :33:50.the propensity to use violence, guns and knives, to exert a grip on their

:33:51. > :33:57.part of the market. We have seen other groups as well, traditionally

:33:58. > :34:01.Turkish and Serbian groups controlling the heroin market, and

:34:02. > :34:05.also Lithuanian gangsters in terms of organised crime as well, but I

:34:06. > :34:09.think it is the Albanians that the NCA wants to focus on. Are they

:34:10. > :34:17.warning us to watch out? Who is the warning for? Or just let us know

:34:18. > :34:21.they have a really hard job? It is part of the annual assessment of the

:34:22. > :34:26.picture of organised crime, and it is one of the things that they are

:34:27. > :34:28.flagging up. It is not for us to tackle Albanian gangsters, but it is

:34:29. > :34:32.something that law enforcement should be aware of, and it tells us

:34:33. > :34:36.about the overall picture, the fact that you have disparate groups

:34:37. > :34:41.coming in wrestling for control of the drugs market is one of the parts

:34:42. > :34:45.of that picture, if you like. What else does the report talk about? It

:34:46. > :34:51.covers everything from firearms to fraud, but one thing that stands out

:34:52. > :34:56.from me -- for me is the threat of corruption at the border by corrupt

:34:57. > :35:00.border staff, ferry workers, people working in courier companies. If you

:35:01. > :35:07.have people on the inside who are helping to facilitate the supply of

:35:08. > :35:10.drugs and also people smugglers, that creates huge problems for the

:35:11. > :35:15.authorities because it makes it easy for the gangsters to get stuff in,

:35:16. > :35:16.and that has been flagged by the NCA in this report. Thank you very much,

:35:17. > :35:29.Danny. A young man from Britain who

:35:30. > :35:37.travelled to Syria in 2014 says he is being held by Syrian forces. Jack

:35:38. > :35:42.Letts, dubbed jihadis Jack, has now left that area, he says. His

:35:43. > :35:46.parents, who had pleaded not guilty to charges of funding terrorism

:35:47. > :35:48.after trying to send cash to their son, have called on the British

:35:49. > :35:52.authorities to do what they can to help. We spoke to them recently, and

:35:53. > :35:56.they told us about the last time they spoke to their son. I was

:35:57. > :36:03.screaming at him on the phone, how could he be so utterly stupid? The

:36:04. > :36:12.line went dead, and then he didn't contact us again for another three

:36:13. > :36:16.weeks. And in those three weeks, we spent every single minute trying to

:36:17. > :36:27.contact whoever we could, trying to get help. So, everybody from

:36:28. > :36:31.journalists to charities, to Prevent organisations, youth workers who

:36:32. > :36:35.work with Prevent, and we did our own reading about who he could

:36:36. > :36:43.possibly be with. At some point, you sent him money. We tried to. But it

:36:44. > :36:47.was blocked by the police. You try to send ?1700 or something? We tried

:36:48. > :36:54.to send money, Edgar blocked, tried again and it got blocked, so the

:36:55. > :37:02.total sum we tried to sent was that. And then we were charged with the

:37:03. > :37:09.offence. -- it got blocked. What happens to you both after being

:37:10. > :37:16.arrested? There was a period before the CPS decided whether wood with --

:37:17. > :37:22.whether we would be charged or not. We were refused bail at the

:37:23. > :37:28.magistrates court and sent on remand for five days, but that got

:37:29. > :37:33.overturned on appeal. Since the arrest, what has been the impact on

:37:34. > :37:38.your lives? Clearly, five days in jail is not what you would have

:37:39. > :37:42.wanted, necessarily. What was that like? After we were arrested, we had

:37:43. > :37:46.to sign in at a police station every day, then we had a curfew from

:37:47. > :37:51.midnight till 6am. Every time the doorbell rings, it is the police, a

:37:52. > :37:57.journalist or somebody. That has been really difficult, very

:37:58. > :38:01.stressful. And how has your son reacted too, because of his actions,

:38:02. > :38:05.what has happened to you in the meantime? We haven't been able to

:38:06. > :38:09.talk to him too much about that. We would need to see him face-to-face.

:38:10. > :38:14.I think he doesn't like the idea. The idea of what? When he was inside

:38:15. > :38:19.he could not speak openly. But he has been out for a while. I think he

:38:20. > :38:23.thinks that horrible in the system shouldn't be doing that to us. The

:38:24. > :38:29.system? What about what he has done and its impact on both of you? It

:38:30. > :38:34.has been horrible. Is he sad about that? Has he shown remorse? I think

:38:35. > :38:40.I would like him to sit here and you can ask in himself, but I'm sure he

:38:41. > :38:47.does, to a degree. I don't know how to answer because I haven't had that

:38:48. > :38:52.extended discussion. I think he is upset by that, but he is motivated

:38:53. > :38:56.by his own internal things. He's a 21-year-old, you know, quite

:38:57. > :39:01.confident, aggregate, pig-headed lad, of which there are many. And on

:39:02. > :39:04.a phone call on a crackly line, it is difficult to have an in-depth

:39:05. > :39:13.conversation about how upset his parents are. -- arrogant. How did

:39:14. > :39:17.you feel when he said he hated you, his parents, for the sake of Allah,

:39:18. > :39:23.because you were non-believers, and called on you to convert to Islam?

:39:24. > :39:29.Yes, I thought about that. I haven't tackled him directly about it. A lot

:39:30. > :39:33.of the strange thing is that Jack has said in interviews or sometimes

:39:34. > :39:41.on Facebook, sometimes we have wondered, is he being forced to say

:39:42. > :39:44.these things? Is he in a situation where people are overhearing what

:39:45. > :39:49.he's saying and he has to, in order to kind of save his life, he has to

:39:50. > :39:53.sort of say certain things? And you could... Sometimes he would write

:39:54. > :39:58.messages that he wouldn't say out loud. He would say certain things

:39:59. > :40:02.out loud that sounded strange. He is an internet cafe, being of a head,

:40:03. > :40:06.and he has to say these things. And what he really thought he would send

:40:07. > :40:09.in a text message during the same conversation. A lot of the religious

:40:10. > :40:16.things he said would be said out loud. He narrowly survived an air

:40:17. > :40:20.strike, with just a scratch. EZ, I am not scared or worried. Everyone

:40:21. > :40:25.will die on their day. A Muslim understands that his life is between

:40:26. > :40:30.the hands of Allah, so if they want to bomb me, they will bomb me.

:40:31. > :40:35.Christians have said this a message. What you think about the fact he was

:40:36. > :40:38.nearly killed? It is terrifying. You're waiting for a phone call

:40:39. > :40:42.every day to say that your son has been killed. Our home affairs

:40:43. > :40:47.correspondent has been in touch with your son and reports that it appears

:40:48. > :40:59.Jack has little desire to come back to the UK. Yes. And he has said all

:41:00. > :41:02.along that he wants to get out of where he is, we want to get into a

:41:03. > :41:09.safe place. We would like him to come back to the UK, but I don't

:41:10. > :41:14.think he would be happy here. I think he wants to live in an Islamic

:41:15. > :41:18.country. He has been told where he is being held at the moment that he

:41:19. > :41:22.would be released to the British, so I think he has resigned himself to

:41:23. > :41:27.the fact that he will come back here for questioning. And I think ideally

:41:28. > :41:31.that would happen, he would be able to tell his side of the story. He

:41:32. > :41:36.wouldn't be on the run for the rest of his life. And then, once he has

:41:37. > :41:46.cleared his name, then he can live his life as he chooses, probably in

:41:47. > :41:51.his mind in an Islamic country. Sally and John Letts. The foreign

:41:52. > :41:53.office says the UK advises against all travel to Syria and parts of

:41:54. > :41:53.Iraq. So-called Islamic State,

:41:54. > :41:55.also known as Daesh, once controlled an area of territory

:41:56. > :41:57.as big as the United Kingdom Since their emergence in 2014,

:41:58. > :42:00.Islamic State's brutality has outraged the world,

:42:01. > :42:03.and concerted attempts have been made by the US, British,

:42:04. > :42:06.Russian and Iraqi militaries amongst As a result, their territory has

:42:07. > :42:14.shrunk dramatically. Now, three years to the day since

:42:15. > :42:17.the 'caliphate' was first declared, one of the largest cities held

:42:18. > :42:20.by IS - Mosul in Iraq - might be about to finally fall

:42:21. > :42:29.to the Iraqi security forces. Although I do feel like we have been

:42:30. > :42:34.saying that for a few weeks now. What could this mean for the future

:42:35. > :42:44.of the so called Islamic State? Karen von Hippel is the head of the

:42:45. > :42:56.think tank the Royal United services Institute. Patrick has written

:42:57. > :43:00.extensively on the caliphate. And in Baghdad, we have Bruno, the UNHCR

:43:01. > :43:07.representative in Iraq. Welcome to all of you. Why have Islamic State

:43:08. > :43:13.been so successful, Patrick, in holding territory in recent years?

:43:14. > :43:17.Well, they are monsters of cruelty. They are extremely fanatical, but

:43:18. > :43:21.they are also, unfortunately, militarily pretty expert and

:43:22. > :43:29.experienced. So, they fight very hard. And they have fought very hard

:43:30. > :43:33.for Mosul. This siege has gone on for 254 days. And they are still

:43:34. > :43:37.fighting there. But they will ultimately lose it. It will be a

:43:38. > :43:41.very serious defeat for them, but it won't entirely put them out of

:43:42. > :43:48.business. That is my next question, to you, Karen, strategically, if/

:43:49. > :43:53.when they lose Mosul, what does that mean for them across the region?

:43:54. > :43:59.They would be fully defeated in Iraq for some time. They have pocket in

:44:00. > :44:06.Iraq. Once they are squeezed out, they will go wander down -- Babel go

:44:07. > :44:10.underground. They will disperse to different parts of the welcome and

:44:11. > :44:15.that is the concern - what does the next version of Isis looked like and

:44:16. > :44:24.how do we disrupt that? What do we think it looks like? Yellow may --

:44:25. > :44:28.terrorism has been more of an integral part of how Isis fight a

:44:29. > :44:32.war than almost any other organisation in history. So what is

:44:33. > :44:35.likely to happen, and may already have happened in Manchester and

:44:36. > :44:40.London, is that they try to counterbalance defeat on the

:44:41. > :44:43.battlefield in Iraq and Syria by carrying out very high-profile

:44:44. > :44:46.atrocities in Western Europe, somewhere where they know it will

:44:47. > :44:51.attract a lot of attention. That has been their track record in the past

:44:52. > :44:56.and his record to be -- is likely to be their record in the future. Is

:44:57. > :45:00.there at direct parallel with their territory shrinking and attacks

:45:01. > :45:05.around the world growing and becoming more horrific? It was

:45:06. > :45:08.predicted that as they were militarily squeeze, they would lash

:45:09. > :45:12.out at the periphery to demonstrate they are still a force to be

:45:13. > :45:15.reckoned with, to continue to attract new recruits. They have the

:45:16. > :45:19.full might of the West pounding them and they can still cause damage

:45:20. > :45:26.elsewhere. I will come back to the question of how the West and others

:45:27. > :45:28.will combat that. Let me bring in Bruno in Baghdad. Tell us about the

:45:29. > :45:39.humanitarian situation, Bruno. There are thousands of civilians

:45:40. > :45:44.still in the old city being used as human shields. They know that if

:45:45. > :45:48.they try to flee they will be targeted by snipers. If they stay

:45:49. > :46:01.they may starve to death. The people we receive in our camps these days

:46:02. > :46:06.are in a state of shock, the deepest trauma, showing the signs. The

:46:07. > :46:10.longer the city remains in the state of battle the more dramatic could be

:46:11. > :46:17.the condition of the city and those people able to flee. There are still

:46:18. > :46:23.tens of thousands of people being held as human shields there. How are

:46:24. > :46:29.you able to help those people? As soon as they reach us they are

:46:30. > :46:33.transported to our camps, receive food, water and shelter. We have a

:46:34. > :46:40.policy of whatever the number arriving in a day which may vary

:46:41. > :46:44.from 5000-18,000 per day, within 24 hours they must have their own tent

:46:45. > :46:53.and receive a hot meal as soon as they arrive. The biggest problem of

:46:54. > :46:58.course is the trauma. We provide psychological first aid after we

:46:59. > :47:01.have identified their immediate needs. We have a referral system to

:47:02. > :47:10.have a deeper kind of psychosocial counselling. Patrick Cockburn and

:47:11. > :47:15.Karin von Hippel, how do governments combat the terror and ideology of

:47:16. > :47:20.IS? It is quite a step forward having eliminated the caliphate.

:47:21. > :47:23.That has been one of the most important things and perhaps

:47:24. > :47:28.underestimated that makes IS terrorism different from others, but

:47:29. > :47:33.it has a centre. I know people say the so-called Islamic state, but it

:47:34. > :47:36.was until recently with Dummigan reel seat with a powerful army,

:47:37. > :47:41.administration, administration and taxation. It could organise and

:47:42. > :47:50.inspire attacks in Britain or in France or in Belgium. That is an

:47:51. > :47:56.improvement since it has been destroyed. These attacks that

:47:57. > :48:00.require no expertise directed at civilians, not everyone can be

:48:01. > :48:06.protected. The basic thing is to try to restore peace to the area. IS is

:48:07. > :48:10.really the child of war, and Al-Qaeda as well, they come of war

:48:11. > :48:14.and chaos. If we have continuing war and chaos we will have the same sort

:48:15. > :48:19.of thing is continuing. Maybe it would be IS, it will be some clone

:48:20. > :48:22.of IS, just like IS was a clone of Al-Qaeda and it will go on and on as

:48:23. > :48:26.long as the war goes on. Unfortunately I think the genie is

:48:27. > :48:31.out of the bottle. Even if you bring peace to Iraq and Syria overnight

:48:32. > :48:34.this will not be the end of Isil. They will be a more distributed

:48:35. > :48:38.threat, find pockets in weak states in many parts of the world and

:48:39. > :48:44.continue their activities online, they are very successful online as

:48:45. > :48:47.well. Thank you very much. Patrick Cockburn from the Independent

:48:48. > :48:50.foreign correspondent for the Independent and Karin von Hippel

:48:51. > :48:55.from the defence think tank Royal united this is Institute and Bruno

:48:56. > :49:10.Geddo in Baghdad, the UNHCR's representative in Iraq. Thank you. A

:49:11. > :49:15.mother has revealed her horror at finding her child had been

:49:16. > :49:20.circumcised without her consent. She opened his nappy to find it covered

:49:21. > :49:23.in blood. She has been urging the authorities to take action from four

:49:24. > :49:24.years. Three people have been arrested

:49:25. > :49:27.after a baby boy was circumcised A 61-year-old man, thought to be

:49:28. > :49:36.a doctor, is suspected of causing The boy was circumcised when he was

:49:37. > :49:40.three years old while staying with his parental grandparents who are

:49:41. > :49:41.Muslim. Well we can't talk about the details

:49:42. > :49:44.of this story because it's But joining me now is

:49:45. > :49:53.Richard Duncker from the campaign Hello. What is your own personal

:49:54. > :50:02.experience, if that's OK to ask. I am a victim turned activist, in that

:50:03. > :50:06.I was circumcised as a child. I've had psychological problems

:50:07. > :50:13.throughout my life. As a result of the circumcision? I believe so. Of

:50:14. > :50:17.course, I am just an anecdote and there isn't a Richard out there who

:50:18. > :50:21.has not been circumcised so we have no possible control. But that's my

:50:22. > :50:28.story. I have sought psychological help along the way. Until I met the

:50:29. > :50:35.charity 15 Square I thought I was probably mad and alone, had fallen

:50:36. > :50:38.off the therapy treadmill in that I had done I just didn't believe what

:50:39. > :50:42.I was hearing, that this can't possibly a problem from inside my

:50:43. > :50:49.own head, I knew it was a problem. Can I ask how old you were when you

:50:50. > :50:57.were circumcised? I believe I was a week old. I started the group Men Do

:50:58. > :51:01.Complain because it's a very difficult thing for a man to

:51:02. > :51:05.complain about, in that you have to first admit there is something wrong

:51:06. > :51:09.with your genitals. You then have to challenge your parents and their

:51:10. > :51:13.decisions. And if you come from one of the cutting cultures you have to

:51:14. > :51:19.go immediately against the dogma of that culture and question those in

:51:20. > :51:22.authority in your community. So that's three very high bars that a

:51:23. > :51:28.man has to get over to complain about this. But I think we need to

:51:29. > :51:35.turn around and look at this from the child's perspective. In society

:51:36. > :51:41.we set a very low bar for child protection. You only have to take a

:51:42. > :51:47.look at the tattooing of Minors act where we don't tolerate a mark on a

:51:48. > :51:54.child made by ink and a pen. The irony is if you were to tattoo a

:51:55. > :51:59.child's Venus you would be in court but if you cut a bit off, have a cup

:52:00. > :52:06.of tea, well done, go home. It is actually a nonsense. Bahamas not

:52:07. > :52:13.always obvious when the child is young. The problems that can develop

:52:14. > :52:23.-- the harm is not always obvious. They can have distorted he needs --

:52:24. > :52:27.genitalia. Male circumcision is legal in this country if both

:52:28. > :52:33.parents consent, is that right? I don't think it is. I would dispute

:52:34. > :52:36.that. If it is a healthy child that is cut, any cut through the full

:52:37. > :52:42.thickness of the skin is a wounding under the offences against the

:52:43. > :52:46.Person act. If there is no disease and we're all agreed that these are

:52:47. > :52:50.healthy children there is no medical defence, it is completely

:52:51. > :52:56.inappropriate treatment. Sorry to interrupt. Should be viewed then, in

:52:57. > :53:02.the same way as we view female genital mutilation? I think that is

:53:03. > :53:07.a very valid point of view in that the French have had a successful

:53:08. > :53:13.prosecutions for FGM, quite a few of them, they have used their civil

:53:14. > :53:18.code, they're perfectly ordinary law, they have not felt the need to

:53:19. > :53:22.resort to constructing a new law for it. In the UK it was a matter of

:53:23. > :53:25.strategy, that if they could separate FGM they might make further

:53:26. > :53:29.progress, but to bundle the whole thing together would be too

:53:30. > :53:33.complicated to make any progress. Thank you for talking to us. Richard

:53:34. > :53:35.Duncker from Men Do Complain. Thank you for your time.

:53:36. > :53:37.We were talking earlier about the appointment

:53:38. > :53:40.of retired high court judge Sir Martin Moore-Bike

:53:41. > :53:42.of retired high court judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick

:53:43. > :53:48.to lead the public inquiry into the Grenfell disaster.

:53:49. > :53:52.He has promised vigorous inquiry Becketts to the truth and that he

:53:53. > :54:02.understands the desire of local people for justice. We can get

:54:03. > :54:08.reaction now from somebody who lived on the 14th floor of the tower.

:54:09. > :54:13.Thank you for talking to us. Finally a judge has been appointed, what do

:54:14. > :54:16.you think about this? This is another way of the government is

:54:17. > :54:22.trying to cover up everything that is wrong. Getting somebody who is

:54:23. > :54:29.retired, been retired for five years, why would you get somebody

:54:30. > :54:33.like that to come back? We're not happy with this, we need a criminal

:54:34. > :54:41.judge, he is not a criminal judge. This is the same person that sent

:54:42. > :54:48.the woman, from Westminster council all the way to Milton Keynes. That's

:54:49. > :54:54.not right. This is not right. Winnie justice and this man will not give

:54:55. > :55:02.us any justice. We should have an influence over whoever conducts this

:55:03. > :55:05.process. This is not right. Even though he promises a vigorous

:55:06. > :55:08.inquiry by guest of the truth? We don't believe him, this is not my

:55:09. > :55:13.opinion, I am speaking to the people of Grenfell Tower. We're not happy

:55:14. > :55:19.about this and we need influence over who will be the judge of this

:55:20. > :55:22.case. This is not right. So you and others, other survivors from

:55:23. > :55:31.Grenfell Tower want to be consulted on who should be leading this public

:55:32. > :55:34.inquiry? Yes, exactly. Exactly. This is not just my opinion, everyone

:55:35. > :55:42.from Grenfell Tower, we all feel the same. The government has appointed

:55:43. > :55:48.this man. Are you saying to them now, stand him down? Why do you have

:55:49. > :55:51.to to bring somebody who was retired five years ago? There are lots of

:55:52. > :55:56.judges who could pick up this case, why does it have to be somebody who

:55:57. > :56:04.retired five years ago? They know that this means the case will go in

:56:05. > :56:08.there favour. You see this man as a member of the establishment? Yes,

:56:09. > :56:14.why do they have to bring him? There are many other judges who could do

:56:15. > :56:17.this? Why do they need a judge who retired five years ago? We need a

:56:18. > :56:25.criminal judge. They can make their promises. This is not fair. We're

:56:26. > :56:32.not going to get justice, we are not going to get true justice. He has

:56:33. > :56:36.said he understands... He doesn't understand anything, sorry to keep

:56:37. > :56:39.cutting you off, Victoria. This man does not understand nothing. This is

:56:40. > :56:47.the same man who sent a woman and her kid all the way to Milton Keynes

:56:48. > :56:51.and the Supreme Court had to turn his decision over. This man doesn't

:56:52. > :56:54.care about us. He said he understands the desire of local

:56:55. > :57:03.people for justice. He doesn't know nothing. He doesn't understand how

:57:04. > :57:08.we feel. Know he doesn't. Sorry to interrupt. Out of his background is

:57:09. > :57:14.that he is, I am told, reported over complex shipping cases, why a ship

:57:15. > :57:20.has sunk. This is a criminal case. He is not a criminal judge. We need

:57:21. > :57:27.a criminal judge. This is murder. OK. All right, so you want your say,

:57:28. > :57:34.you want to influence... I don't want my say, we want our say. We

:57:35. > :57:40.want our say, we are Grenfell Tower and we want our say, the families

:57:41. > :57:45.want their say. This is not me speaking, I'm speaking for Grenfell

:57:46. > :57:53.Tower now. We want our say. Thank you very much.

:57:54. > :57:56.That is Oluwaseun Talabi. A couple of things to mention before the end

:57:57. > :57:59.of the programme. Neil Findlay, member of the Scottish Parliament,

:58:00. > :58:02.Labour member, tabled a motion at the Scottish Parliament praising our

:58:03. > :58:09.programme for coverage of the surgical mesh issue. And this just

:58:10. > :58:12.in as well. The speaker has selected three amendments to the big debate

:58:13. > :58:17.in the Commons this evening to be voted on tonight. They are quite

:58:18. > :58:22.long so I don't think I have time to read them to now but I'm sure you

:58:23. > :58:27.will get the information in BBC newsroom live coming up next. Thank

:58:28. > :58:29.you for your company, have a good day. Back tomorrow at 9am.