25/07/2017

:00:00. > :00:07.Hello, it's Tuesday, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:08. > :00:13.Charlie Gard's parents are spending their last precious

:00:14. > :00:16.moments with their terminally-ill son after ending their legal fight

:00:17. > :00:29.The Charlie, we say, mummy and daddy love you so much, we always have and

:00:30. > :00:35.we always will and we are so sorry we couldn't save you. Charlie is

:00:36. > :00:39.expected to die within days. We will get reaction from some of those who

:00:40. > :00:45.have supported his parents. An NHS report into the use of joiner or

:00:46. > :00:55.mesh in England has been branded a whitewash -- vaginal. Campaigners

:00:56. > :01:01.have been calling for the use of the mesh to be suspended. I want the

:01:02. > :01:05.procedure and material banned. It is a device of torture, please stop.

:01:06. > :01:07.It's a story we first exposed in April.

:01:08. > :01:10.We'll bring you the details and hear from campaigners who are

:01:11. > :01:14.Plus, in an exclusive interview, the parents of an autistic man

:01:15. > :01:17.pinned to the floor and to his bed for up to 11 hours by nine members

:01:18. > :01:20.of staff at a private hospital in Birmingham tell us

:01:21. > :01:22.the treatment their son experienced means he now has

:01:23. > :01:39.Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning.

:01:40. > :01:44.Plenty of developing stories to keep across this morning -

:01:45. > :01:48.a little later, we'll tell you how the Government is looking

:01:49. > :01:51.at banning leaseholds on new houses in England.

:01:52. > :01:53.It's after we revealed some of the practises ripping off

:01:54. > :02:03.Keen to hear your experiences on this.

:02:04. > :02:06.And a little later in the programme, we'll hear from former Jehovah's

:02:07. > :02:09.witnesses about their experience of leaving the religion and being

:02:10. > :02:13.Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

:02:14. > :02:16.use the hashtag #VictoriaLive, and if you text, you will be charged

:02:17. > :02:21.Charlie God's parents say they are preparing to spend their last

:02:22. > :02:27.precious moments with their son. They ended their legal battle to

:02:28. > :02:29.take him to the US for treatment. In a statement, Great Ormond Street

:02:30. > :02:33.Hospital where Charlie is on life support said they recognised the

:02:34. > :02:35.agony, desolation and bravery of their decision. Caroline Rigby

:02:36. > :02:37.reports. This photograph of Charlie Gard

:02:38. > :02:40.was released by his parents last night, just hours after they told

:02:41. > :02:43.the courts they now accepted Their fight to send Charlie

:02:44. > :02:47.to the US for experimental Our son is an absolute warrior,

:02:48. > :02:53.and we could not be prouder of him, His body, heart and soul may soon be

:02:54. > :03:02.gone, but his spirit will live on for eternity,

:03:03. > :03:07.and he will make a difference Charlie has been in intensive

:03:08. > :03:12.care since October. He has a rare inherited condition -

:03:13. > :03:18.mitochondrial depletion syndrome. It means he cannot move,

:03:19. > :03:20.feed or breathe unaided. Charlie's parents had wanted

:03:21. > :03:23.to send him for therapy in America, but judges ruled he should be

:03:24. > :03:27.allowed to die after Great Ormond Street Hospital argued

:03:28. > :03:31.the treatment was futile. The case came back to court

:03:32. > :03:33.when this American neurologist, Michio Hirano, claimed new evidence

:03:34. > :03:40.that his treatment could help. But that doctor has now told them

:03:41. > :03:43.it's too late to treat Charlie. We are now in July, and our poor boy

:03:44. > :03:50.has been left to just lie Great Ormond Street insist earlier

:03:51. > :03:56.treatment would not have saved him. The hospital have praised

:03:57. > :03:58.the courage of his parents, saying the agony, desolation

:03:59. > :04:02.and bravery of their decision has His parents will now spend Charlie's

:04:03. > :04:25.last few days by his side. Let us talk to Lisa. When is Charlie

:04:26. > :04:29.Garde likely to come off his ventilator? The parents want to

:04:30. > :04:33.spend as much time as they can with Charlie, who they are calling their

:04:34. > :04:38.warrior. It will probably be a few days. It is unlikely to ventilator

:04:39. > :04:42.will be taken straightaway, but nobody knows, they want to spend

:04:43. > :04:46.time with him and the hospital will know the procedure, to get them used

:04:47. > :04:49.to the idea it will happen. We have heard in the past they wanted to

:04:50. > :04:56.take him home and the hospital said it was not possible. May try to get

:04:57. > :05:02.that to happen again. But they have now realised that it is the end for

:05:03. > :05:09.Charlie and we will probably find out in the next week or so that the

:05:10. > :05:14.ventilator has been switched off. Great Ormond Street Hospital have

:05:15. > :05:18.made comments about the US doctor, the American neurologist, who

:05:19. > :05:24.offered some hope to Charlie. Yes, Great Ormond Street Hospital gave

:05:25. > :05:28.statements last night. They wanted to say it in court, but it did not

:05:29. > :05:33.happen. They accused him of giving the parents false hope, they say

:05:34. > :05:39.Michio Hirano gave evidence at the initial court hearing, I was there,

:05:40. > :05:51.it took three days, and he was giving evidence by Skype saying he

:05:52. > :05:56.could help. But he did not examine Charlie and the last week. He had

:05:57. > :06:00.not looked at the brain scans, the contemporaneous medical notes and he

:06:01. > :06:03.had not read the judge's statement and he had not looked at the second

:06:04. > :06:09.opinions from other world-renowned experts that Great Ormond Street

:06:10. > :06:13.Hospital had gone to and they had examined Charlie. They say they are

:06:14. > :06:21.concerned to hear that the professor stated in the witness box he retains

:06:22. > :06:26.financial interest in some of the treatment compounds he proposed to

:06:27. > :06:30.give Charlie. On July the 13th, when we had an MRI scan, the parents

:06:31. > :06:38.realised the scans showed Charlie really was beyond help at that

:06:39. > :06:44.point. The hospital says it gave no cause for optimism, it confirms that

:06:45. > :06:48.while the treatment way -- the treatment may assist others in the

:06:49. > :06:53.future, it cannot assist Charlie. The hospital are saying, we do not

:06:54. > :06:58.know, about time. The American doctor is saying that had Charlie

:06:59. > :07:02.been able to have the experimental therapy never tested on humans, he

:07:03. > :07:07.may have got better. But he was never going to survive, but he may

:07:08. > :07:10.have improved. But I think the hospital is saying, we will never

:07:11. > :07:15.know that. That not clear. They say there is hope that those like the

:07:16. > :07:20.professor who have provided opinions that have so sustained Charlie's

:07:21. > :07:24.parents, their hopes, and thus, this protracted litigation with its many

:07:25. > :07:29.consequences, will also find much upon which to reflect. I must say,

:07:30. > :07:33.before I finished, we have not had a response yet from Michio Hirano.

:07:34. > :07:35.Ben Brown is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:07:36. > :07:43.Builders could be banned from selling new houses as leasehold

:07:44. > :07:46.properties in England under proposals put forward by the

:07:47. > :07:50.Government today. It comes after it emerged some housing developers have

:07:51. > :07:54.been selling the leasehold on to investment firms without always

:07:55. > :07:58.telling homeowners, leading the extra costs or rising charges.

:07:59. > :08:11.An official report into the use of joiner -- vaginal mesh for organ

:08:12. > :08:16.prolapse. It has been screwed the tee described as a whitewash. The

:08:17. > :08:22.report by NHS England has called for better reporting of problems and

:08:23. > :08:23.increased knowledge sharing, but it has not recommended discontinuing

:08:24. > :08:29.use of the mesh. described as a whitewash. The

:08:30. > :08:38.Government says there has been a big rise in the number of people falling

:08:39. > :08:41.victim to scams in recruitment. Some have demanded people use premium

:08:42. > :08:46.rate phone lines. The joint industry and law enforcement organisation

:08:47. > :08:48.reports that in the last two years, there has been a 300%

:08:49. > :08:54.rise in recruitment related fraud and misconduct. UK animal worthwhile

:08:55. > :08:58.standards could be threatened if farmers have to compete against

:08:59. > :09:03.cheaper, less regulated rivals from outside the EU after Brexit. -- UK

:09:04. > :09:06.animal welfare standards. That's the warning from a House

:09:07. > :09:08.of Lords committee. It's urging the government to insist

:09:09. > :09:11.on similar standards in any free trade agreements to avoid

:09:12. > :09:20.what it calls a race to the A young man with autism has been

:09:21. > :09:24.played around ?45,000 in damages by a private hospital and the police

:09:25. > :09:29.after the way they treated him. He was pinned to the floor and to his

:09:30. > :09:33.bed for 11 hours by nine members of staff at a private hospital in

:09:34. > :09:38.Birmingham. He was sometimes so heavily medicated that he could

:09:39. > :09:41.hardly speak or stand. A local authority investigation found there

:09:42. > :09:47.had been serious and multiple failings in his care.

:09:48. > :09:50.Justin Bieber says he is cancelling the rest of his world tour "due

:09:51. > :09:56.He's been touring for the past 18 months, playing more

:09:57. > :09:59.The final 15 performances were scheduled to be

:10:00. > :10:04.That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

:10:05. > :10:11.Thank you very much. We will bring you the sport in just a moment. If

:10:12. > :10:16.you are getting in touch, you are very welcome. Rugby Football League

:10:17. > :10:20.union have made a controversial decision concerning the women's

:10:21. > :10:24.game. Yes, they have. They have taken a decision which has raised a

:10:25. > :10:27.lot of eyebrows. England will defend the World Cup title later next

:10:28. > :10:32.month, but many of the squad will be left without contracts because the

:10:33. > :10:35.RFU wants to switch attention from 15 aside the seventh with the

:10:36. > :10:39.Commonwealth Games next year. That has led one MP to call it a kick in

:10:40. > :10:43.the teeth that highlights the massive inequality in Britain. We

:10:44. > :10:48.know on the mend's side, England players are well rewarded in both

:10:49. > :10:53.15s and sevens. But RFU is the first union to award full or part-time

:10:54. > :10:58.contracts, lots of criticism, especially the record revenues of

:10:59. > :11:03.more than ?400 million last year, the RFU claim that change reflects

:11:04. > :11:07.the cyclical nature of women's rugby, but does the money go far

:11:08. > :11:11.enough? Those who are involved in 15s at the moment, at the elite end,

:11:12. > :11:19.they will potentially have to look for further employment, so that is

:11:20. > :11:22.where frustrations are coming. What is positive is there is funding and

:11:23. > :11:25.support but it is not enough and going forward there needs to be

:11:26. > :11:30.further investment, not just in rugby, but other sports, as we have

:11:31. > :11:34.seen with England cricket. The changes are likely to make a

:11:35. > :11:38.difference. England won the Six Nations seven years before they

:11:39. > :11:42.focused on seventh ahead of Rio, that meant they went four years

:11:43. > :11:47.without winning it. Since the money has been aimed at 15th, England won

:11:48. > :11:53.the Six Nations this year. It seems to have a direct effect. Another

:11:54. > :11:55.great day for swimmers in the World Championship Saint Budapest. The

:11:56. > :12:00.world aquatics championships, they have given Great Britain fans much

:12:01. > :12:04.to cheer over the weekend. We know all about Adam Peaty's qualities in

:12:05. > :12:08.the 100 metres breast row, Olympic champion of course. He successfully

:12:09. > :12:11.defended his world title in Budapest, narrowly missing out on

:12:12. > :12:14.breaking his own world record. I can tell you he has done even better

:12:15. > :12:20.this morning, broken the world record in the heats of the 50 metres

:12:21. > :12:22.breaststroke, as he began the defence of his world title.

:12:23. > :12:28.Fantastic moment for another swimmer. He called his gold medal

:12:29. > :12:36.dream come true. He qualified fourth fastest. He managed to tape a

:12:37. > :12:41.victory by just four hundredths of a second. Hopefully more British

:12:42. > :12:45.success with several swimmers in action in finals later on. Which

:12:46. > :12:49.former Formula 1 driver is making a comeback? He is hoping for a

:12:50. > :12:55.comeback, it would be a fantastic story. Six, seven years ago, he was

:12:56. > :12:59.regarded as one of the best driving talents in Formula 1, many predicted

:13:00. > :13:04.he would be a future world champion, I was a big fan. 2011, it all

:13:05. > :13:10.changed, life changing injuries in a rally driving accident. Despite

:13:11. > :13:14.intensive treatment, he only regained limited movement of his arm

:13:15. > :13:19.and he has not been in a Formula 1 race since, but that could change.

:13:20. > :13:26.He will drive for Renault this year in a test in Hungary next week. His

:13:27. > :13:32.former team have described it as a new phase. It would be a fairy tale

:13:33. > :13:35.return for someone whose career ended so abruptly. He is said to be

:13:36. > :13:39.confident he can perform with the new car on the tracks. We could see

:13:40. > :13:46.him coming back to Formula 1 very soon. It would be an amazing

:13:47. > :13:50.comeback. Thank you very much. This e-mail from a former Jehovah's

:13:51. > :13:53.Witness, we will be talking to three people who used to be part of the

:13:54. > :13:56.religion and when they left, they were effectively shunned by family

:13:57. > :14:01.and friends. I am so pleased that the practice of this fellowship is

:14:02. > :14:04.being aired on your programme because the full extent of the

:14:05. > :14:10.shining needs to be exposed. I'm 60, I have just left. I have left

:14:11. > :14:16.gradually. I followed advice from former X friends who have managed to

:14:17. > :14:19.do the same. Many of my friends have distanced themselves and I have lost

:14:20. > :14:25.the entirety of my deceased husband's family. I'm going to

:14:26. > :14:29.meetings. When someone does it, they are completely shunned. You do not

:14:30. > :14:33.have to wait, if a view is expressed that is not party line, people start

:14:34. > :14:37.distancing themselves. You are viewed as a bad associate. The

:14:38. > :14:41.controller is unbelievable. The practice has become too much part of

:14:42. > :14:45.the culture that members do not realise what they are doing. This

:14:46. > :14:51.sort of radicalisation. The Scriptures are twisted. I could go

:14:52. > :14:52.on but I have to go to work! We will hear from three former Jehovah's

:14:53. > :14:59.Witnesses after 10am this morning. Next this morning, a report

:15:00. > :15:01.into the use of vaginal mesh implants out this morning,

:15:02. > :15:04.has been described as a "whitewash", a "waste of time" and not worth

:15:05. > :15:07.the paper it's written on. Mesh implants are designed

:15:08. > :15:09.to help deal with bladder incontinence and pelvic organ

:15:10. > :15:11.prolapse, often resulting In some cases the mesh erodes

:15:12. > :15:19.or cuts through the vagina. Earlier this year we exclusively

:15:20. > :15:22.revealed that up to 800 women are taking legal action

:15:23. > :15:24.against the NHS and manufacturers of mesh after the simple procedure

:15:25. > :15:27.left them with devastating problems - some are now registered disabled,

:15:28. > :15:29.can't walk unaided, are wholly incontinent,

:15:30. > :15:48.unable to have sex, unable to work Over the last five years, I've had

:15:49. > :15:53.over 53 admissions. Because you're in pain. Because of pain. My husband

:15:54. > :15:58.has turned into my career and he is so less of my husband. We can't have

:15:59. > :16:02.sex. Wet haven't had sex for four-and-a-half years. It is a

:16:03. > :16:08.divisive torture, please stop. I want the procedure banned. I want

:16:09. > :16:13.the material banned. It has totally changed my life. I'm registered

:16:14. > :16:23.disabled and I have no control over my bowel or my bladder. I have nerve

:16:24. > :16:33.damage. I'm double incontinent. That's bowel and bladder. I have got

:16:34. > :16:35.depression and never thought having a 40 minutes procedure twice would

:16:36. > :16:40.be this devastating. I just didn't. Since our story in April we have

:16:41. > :16:48.consistently requested interviews with the NHS,

:16:49. > :16:50.Department of Health, and regulatory body

:16:51. > :16:52.the MHRA and they have This morning, NHS England have

:16:53. > :16:55.released a long awaited report They've turned down our

:16:56. > :16:59.request for an interview. That report recommends

:17:00. > :17:05.improving patient-doctor consultation before surgery,

:17:06. > :17:13.getting women to specialist units if they experience poor outcomes

:17:14. > :17:15.and improving the recording of surgery that goes

:17:16. > :17:17.wrong by surgeons. Mesh safety campaigners say it's

:17:18. > :17:20.a whitewash because it didn't look at whether mesh implants are safe

:17:21. > :17:23.to be used in the first place. One campaigner says,

:17:24. > :17:25."They might as well park an ambulance at the bottom

:17:26. > :17:27.of a cliff and wait They should have looked at product

:17:28. > :17:32.safety, not at ways to fix women Despite this report coming from NHS

:17:33. > :17:41.England, the report's author, Professor Keith Willett

:17:42. > :17:43.turned down our request to Let's get reaction to it

:17:44. > :17:49.from from Tracy Porton and Julie Gilsenan who have both

:17:50. > :17:52.suffered severe complications and realised they weren't alone

:17:53. > :17:55.after watching coverage of the issue Dr Sohier Elneil,

:17:56. > :18:13.a consultant urogynecologist I'm going to ask you Tracey for your

:18:14. > :18:19.reaction to the NHS England report? They're nice. They're very nice that

:18:20. > :18:22.they want to deal with this, but why aren't they looking at the product?

:18:23. > :18:27.They need to look at the product. My view of the mesh is that it's

:18:28. > :18:32.dangerous. Every single story I've read and my own story isn't about

:18:33. > :18:36.the surgery. The surgeon, the treatment, the after care or the

:18:37. > :18:40.information. It's about the product. The product has caused injury and it

:18:41. > :18:45.has been injuring people for more than ten years. It's known. We will

:18:46. > :18:49.come back to your story in a moment. Let me get reaction from Julie. Hi,

:18:50. > :18:54.Julie, what are your thoughts on the recommendations from this report

:18:55. > :18:59.today? Well, again, like Tracey said there has been no looking into the

:19:00. > :19:05.safety of the mesh. No product investigation and they are making

:19:06. > :19:08.recommendations about surgeons reporting, but less than 40% of

:19:09. > :19:15.surgeons report problems regarding the mesh. As someone who spends a

:19:16. > :19:20.lot of time trying to remove mesh implants from women, how do you

:19:21. > :19:25.react to this report? I don't think it's gone far enough. I think it

:19:26. > :19:30.sort of touched a little bit on the surface. It has not touched on the

:19:31. > :19:36.very start of this whole process. I mean the whole point of meshes was

:19:37. > :19:41.to really the goal was to try and prevent recurrence of prolapse or

:19:42. > :19:45.incontinentance. It hasn't achieved that and many women have got

:19:46. > :19:53.problems with it, but also, there is so many aspects of it, not just in

:19:54. > :19:57.prolapse and incontinence, but in other arenas in hernia, dental and

:19:58. > :20:01.so on. The report is has glimpsed over some areas. It is true we are

:20:02. > :20:05.lacking data. We are lacking information, but you know, it hasn't

:20:06. > :20:09.really gone far enough and I think the integration of the women in the

:20:10. > :20:13.report fully particularly the women who have suffered with these

:20:14. > :20:20.problems isn't taken into account and that needs to be taken into

:20:21. > :20:28.account. But know that, for most women, this procedure works and the

:20:29. > :20:31.regulatory body has told us in common with other med device

:20:32. > :20:35.regulators, we are not aware of a robust body of evidence which would

:20:36. > :20:43.lead to the conclusion these devices are unsafe, if used as intended?

:20:44. > :20:47.That's true, but equally the quoted problem or risk is supposed to be

:20:48. > :20:54.between one and 2%. We know it exceeds that. And conservative

:20:55. > :20:59.measures, consider it to be 15% and there are others who think it's even

:21:00. > :21:05.higher than that. Yes, collecting data will be helpful to give us the

:21:06. > :21:09.real picture, but in the end it is still a prosthetic material that is

:21:10. > :21:14.being inserted into organs or tissues which are supposed to have

:21:15. > :21:18.some degree of mobility and this product doesn't do that. It doesn't

:21:19. > :21:21.allow mobility, although some people might argue that we are trying to

:21:22. > :21:25.stop mobility altogether because that's the cause of the problem, but

:21:26. > :21:28.equally, there are other measures you can use and there are other

:21:29. > :21:35.surgical operations you can use and that needs to be considered. So, as

:21:36. > :21:38.is surgeon you have a number of techniques and you need to be able

:21:39. > :21:43.to offer those option to say every woman and actually explain the pros

:21:44. > :21:46.and cons. NHS England say the report was never commissioned to look at

:21:47. > :21:57.mesh as a product and whether it should be banned. It was only to

:21:58. > :22:00.find better practise. Tracey, you contacted us. You had no idea that

:22:01. > :22:05.there were other women who were suffering in the way you were, did

:22:06. > :22:11.you? No, I had six lots of surgery. The last surgery was major surgery.

:22:12. > :22:16.So I've had three different surgeons operate on me, not once have I ever

:22:17. > :22:22.been told of complications. Or warned. So when you saw our coverage

:22:23. > :22:25.how did you react? I cried more about two hours. My son told me it

:22:26. > :22:34.was going to be on. And I watched it. And I cried and cried and cried.

:22:35. > :22:39.And then I read horrific Tories, horrific stories. I'm lucky. I'm in

:22:40. > :22:44.pain. I'm sat here in pain. Every day I'm in pain. I have mesh still

:22:45. > :22:49.attached to my spine, but there is women that can't walk. There is

:22:50. > :22:53.women that had their bowels removed and their pladers removed because

:22:54. > :22:56.the mesh, the product has damaged them. That's what happened to me.

:22:57. > :23:02.The product and part of the product is still in me. Because they could

:23:03. > :23:07.only do a partial removal. Once it's in you, your tissue grows around it.

:23:08. > :23:12.It shrinks and tears. I had two holes torn in my vagina, separate

:23:13. > :23:16.operations to repair those. The last surgery saved my life because the

:23:17. > :23:22.mesh started cutting into the wall of my bowel. So I had a bowel

:23:23. > :23:27.surgeon on stand-by in case and actually they did find it was

:23:28. > :23:30.cutting through the wall of my bowel, if I hadn't gone back to

:23:31. > :23:34.hospital, I could have died like a lot of women and a lot of women

:23:35. > :23:40.still don't know. I spoke to the taxi driver on the way here. His

:23:41. > :23:46.mother had mesh. And she is in agony and what a small world. I could have

:23:47. > :23:53.had any taxi driver and he went, "Oh my god, that's what my mum is going

:23:54. > :23:56.through." ." How do you react and the evidence shows this that for

:23:57. > :24:01.most women it works? I do not believe it. I am one person and I

:24:02. > :24:04.found out in April from your show how many women didn't watch your

:24:05. > :24:10.show? How many women haven't seen it in the media? How many women had

:24:11. > :24:14.this procedure? The increase on the sling the mesh Facebook site, the

:24:15. > :24:19.increase in membership just doubled overnight. And it will continue and

:24:20. > :24:24.there will be more and more cases coming forward. More and more women

:24:25. > :24:28.injured. This is an e-mail from Jill. She was one of the

:24:29. > :24:32.representatives with the working group that are behind the report out

:24:33. > :24:35.today from NHS England. Jill says, "I was one of several mesh injured

:24:36. > :24:40.patient representatives with the working group. We called for

:24:41. > :24:44.suspension of mesh three years ago and for a thorough investigation of

:24:45. > :24:48.the mesh material and the blind way in which it is implanted. All this

:24:49. > :24:56.fell on deaf ears and was ignored. Why? Why won't they look at the

:24:57. > :25:03.product itself? It is scandalous. I and other patient reps resigned in

:25:04. > :25:08.disgust." I'm not sure if that's the Scotland working group or the group

:25:09. > :25:12.behind the NHS England report, it might be the Scotland one. Julie

:25:13. > :25:16.tell our audience what happened to you? I had a mesh implant in

:25:17. > :25:20.February this year. I was told it was going to be a simple fix

:25:21. > :25:25.operation for a mild stress incontinence. I was told I would

:25:26. > :25:34.just be a day case in and out and I was back to work within six weeks.

:25:35. > :25:42.As a result of this surgery, my bladder was perforated during

:25:43. > :25:45.surgery. I have to self Katherise. I have not nerve damage down my leg

:25:46. > :25:49.and my surgeon is still saying this could be down to bruising through

:25:50. > :25:58.the surgery. This is down to product safety. Your bladder was perforated

:25:59. > :26:03.during the procedure by the person who was implanting the mesh, not the

:26:04. > :26:07.mesh itself, is that correct? Yes. It was actually the trainee, there

:26:08. > :26:12.was a certainlyingon's trainee who first did my surgery and he

:26:13. > :26:18.perforated my bladder with the hooks. And the hooks are used to

:26:19. > :26:23.bring the mesh into place. That is not the mesh product's fault then,

:26:24. > :26:28.is it, would you agree? No, that's not the mesh product's fault. That

:26:29. > :26:32.was down to my surgeon allowing a trainee possibly to perform my

:26:33. > :26:37.surgery, but now that's resolved. I have still got all these issues with

:26:38. > :26:42.this mesh and the mesh is causing these problems and I'm 100% certain

:26:43. > :26:46.it is mesh and it is down to product safety and we need to get this

:26:47. > :26:50.stopped, to stop anymore women suffering like I am, like trace

:26:51. > :26:57.crisis is, like the thousands of women in our group are suffering.

:26:58. > :27:05.Doctor, your experience of being involved in the group. So, I was, it

:27:06. > :27:08.was really at the patients insistence that they asked me to

:27:09. > :27:13.sit-in on the NHS England group which I was very happy to do. I sat

:27:14. > :27:20.on the NICE procedures advisory committee. So I came in with that

:27:21. > :27:23.hat as well and we were happy to participate, but I hadn't been in

:27:24. > :27:27.touch with the group or haven't been part of the group, I think, for at

:27:28. > :27:31.least 18 months because I haven't received any contact from them and I

:27:32. > :27:35.think you are aware that some of the, in fact most of the patients on

:27:36. > :27:42.that group were in a similar position. So, we haven't really been

:27:43. > :27:46.part of the report at the end. We were not part of the discussion

:27:47. > :27:54.before its release. And there are, I mean, as you've just heard from the

:27:55. > :27:59.other two ladies, there are a lot of aspects, not just about the safety

:28:00. > :28:06.concerns of the product, but also it is other impacts that is not always

:28:07. > :28:09.dumbed such as the ought owe immune toxicity and so on. There are a lot

:28:10. > :28:12.of issues with this product, not only with the way it is inserted and

:28:13. > :28:16.put in, but what happens to the product once it is in the body

:28:17. > :28:20.long-term. And certainly some of the women I looked after had those

:28:21. > :28:24.problems. This message from Lisa on Facebook, "A 20 minute operation

:28:25. > :28:28.referred to as the gold standard in procedures that is causing

:28:29. > :28:34.debilitating consequences. I have had two mesh implants. TVT and

:28:35. > :28:39.hernia. The hernia has given me consistent pain for 12 years. I have

:28:40. > :28:49.been advised to have a full hysterectomy as the pain would then

:28:50. > :28:54.be cured. It wasn't. I then had incontinence. At no point was it

:28:55. > :28:59.called mesh. Now, I have two lots of this barbaric stuff inside me

:29:00. > :29:04.causing me pain. Stop using it." Says Lisa. What do you want to

:29:05. > :29:08.happen now, Tracey? I want the product investigated further. I am

:29:09. > :29:13.aware that it's global. I know that. When I went to America a few months

:29:14. > :29:18.ago, there were adverts by law firms saying have you been injured by

:29:19. > :29:23.mesh? This problem is global. In the UK, they need to stop using the

:29:24. > :29:29.mesh. They need to stop straightaway and look at alternative methods and

:29:30. > :29:43.offer further investigation. Just, they are doing this procedure on a

:29:44. > :29:47.basis. I was told I mightn't have had prolapse. Ten years ago, the

:29:48. > :29:52.surgery may never needed to have happened. I could have had

:29:53. > :30:02.physiotherapy to help with my minor prolapse. The only other thing I'd

:30:03. > :30:06.like to say is an analogy and Kath and I were talking last night. I

:30:07. > :30:09.said if you have a car with an electrical fire, the car

:30:10. > :30:15.manufacturer will remove the product or recall the product. The

:30:16. > :30:19.pharmaceutical companies that make this product have known for over ten

:30:20. > :30:20.years that it causes complications and they haven't removed the

:30:21. > :30:29.product. Thank you all very much for coming

:30:30. > :30:30.on the programme. Your views are of course welcome and your own

:30:31. > :30:32.experiences. In an exclusive interview,

:30:33. > :30:37.the parents of an autistic man who was restrained by as many

:30:38. > :30:40.as nine members of staff for 11 hours at a private hospital

:30:41. > :30:43.in Birmingham tell us their son has They want an apology

:30:44. > :30:46.from the hospital. Not just a victory in

:30:47. > :30:50.cricket, but a momentous That's the verdict of some

:30:51. > :31:16.of England's women's cricket team The parents of Charlie Gard say they

:31:17. > :31:19.are preparing to spend their last precious moments with their

:31:20. > :31:27.terminally ill son after deciding to end their legal battle to take the

:31:28. > :31:30.US. Great Ormond Street Hospital said they recognised the agony,

:31:31. > :31:34.desolation and bravery of the decision. They added, they would be

:31:35. > :31:38.giving careful thought to what could be learnt from the case.

:31:39. > :31:41.Builders could be banned from selling new houses as leasehold

:31:42. > :31:43.properties in England - under proposals put forward

:31:44. > :31:46.It comes after it emerged some housing developers have been selling

:31:47. > :31:49.the leasehold on to investment firms - without always telling homeowners,

:31:50. > :31:54.leading to extra costs or rising charges for them.

:31:55. > :31:57.An official report into the use of vaginal mesh implants to treat

:31:58. > :31:59.incontinence and organ prolapse has been described as a

:32:00. > :32:06.Earlier this year, this programme revealed that hundreds of women

:32:07. > :32:11.are living with chronic pain and complications after

:32:12. > :32:16.The report by NHS England has called for better reporting of problems

:32:17. > :32:18.and increased knowledge sharing, but has not recommended

:32:19. > :32:30.The Government says there's been a big rise in the number of people

:32:31. > :32:32.falling victim to scams linked to job recruitment.

:32:33. > :32:34.Some fake recruiters ask for cash for non-existent security checks,

:32:35. > :32:37.while others demand that people use premium rate phone lines.

:32:38. > :32:39.Latest figures suggest that in the last two years there has been

:32:40. > :32:47.a 300% rise in recruitment related fraud and misconduct.

:32:48. > :32:56.That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

:32:57. > :33:03.Thank you. And thank you for your e-mails, people who used to be

:33:04. > :33:11.Jehovah's Witnesses. However, I left two and a half years ago. As a

:33:12. > :33:15.result, my brother, mother, my own daughter, they shun me. It is the

:33:16. > :33:20.cruellest practice. I am glad it is being exposed. I had to have

:33:21. > :33:25.counselling to try to come to terms with losing my family. This e-mail

:33:26. > :33:28.from someone who does not wish to leave their name, a former Jehovah's

:33:29. > :33:36.Witness, I have no issue whatsoever, they have never shunned me. You get

:33:37. > :33:47.disfellowship by doing suddenly against the religion. It is

:33:48. > :33:57.ridiculous how people are making a bad name for them. Jackie says, my

:33:58. > :34:01.mother was a Jehovah witness. It caused havoc, no Christmas, no

:34:02. > :34:06.Easter. My father was a normal parent who intuit my mother's

:34:07. > :34:10.horrendous ways. Myself and my two brothers find it very difficult at

:34:11. > :34:15.Christmas and on our birthdays. It is a horrible so-called religion. We

:34:16. > :34:21.will talk to three former Jehovah witnesses about being shunned after

:34:22. > :34:23.ten. Now the sport. Good morning again.

:34:24. > :34:26.It was a great evening in the pool on day two

:34:27. > :34:29.of the World Aquatics Championships for Great Britain who won two golds.

:34:30. > :34:31.Olympic champion Adam Peaty successfully defended his world 100m

:34:32. > :34:33.breaststroke title in a new championship record.

:34:34. > :34:39.He finished over a second ahead of his nearest rival.

:34:40. > :34:42.GB's second gold was a bit more of a surprise but no less deserved

:34:43. > :34:47.as Ben Proud took the 50m butterfly title.

:34:48. > :34:49.He's already the Commonwealth champion over this distance,

:34:50. > :34:50.but his best event, the 50m freestyle,

:34:51. > :34:54.He competes in that at the end of the week.

:34:55. > :34:59.The Rugby Football Union has been criticised after deciding not

:35:00. > :35:03.to renew contracts for the England women's 15-aside team.

:35:04. > :35:07.The Six Nations champions defend their world title

:35:08. > :35:11.in Ireland next month, but the RFU has said

:35:12. > :35:13.after the tournament, the focus will be shifted

:35:14. > :35:15.to the sevens squad ahead of next year's Commonwealth Games.

:35:16. > :35:17.And Manchester City have broken the world transfer record

:35:18. > :35:20.for a defender by signing Monaco full back Benjamin Mendy

:35:21. > :35:27.The France international has signed a five-year deal.

:35:28. > :35:32.We will be back with more sport just after 10am. Thank you.

:35:33. > :35:35.A young man with autism has been paid around 45 thousand pounds

:35:36. > :35:38.in damages by a private hospital and the police after the way

:35:39. > :35:40.they treated him while in their care led to him suffering

:35:41. > :35:50.As a teenager, Adam Nasralla - who's now 23 - was pinned

:35:51. > :35:53.to the floor and to his bed for 11 hours by nine members

:35:54. > :35:55.of staff at Wast Hills, a private hospital in Birmingham

:35:56. > :35:59.He was sometimes so heavily medicated that he could

:36:00. > :36:06.After being arrested for assaulting staff, he was handcuffed,

:36:07. > :36:09.restrained by a belt and forced to wear a spit hood whilst

:36:10. > :36:16.Adam Nasralla's family fought for justice and an investigation

:36:17. > :36:18.by the local authority found there had been serious

:36:19. > :36:21.He's now living independently as he rebuilds his life

:36:22. > :36:23.but his family are speaking to us exclusively in their

:36:24. > :36:31.I started by asking Jill and Lawrence, Adam's mum and dad,

:36:32. > :36:33.by asking them to explain how their son was treated -

:36:34. > :36:36.firstly, at an NHS facility near their home, and later,

:36:37. > :36:53.My son had never been restrained in his life. He was introduced to

:36:54. > :37:00.restraint and seclusion. It was a facility that did not specialise in

:37:01. > :37:05.autism. They used restrictive practices which he objected to. The

:37:06. > :37:11.more they restricted him, the more he reacted, the more he challenged

:37:12. > :37:16.them, they're more they restricted, a cycle. He went there for 28 days,

:37:17. > :37:23.and was there for 15 months. When you talk about restraint, what do

:37:24. > :37:30.you mean? Basically, having a boy like my son, six foot four, pinned

:37:31. > :37:38.to the floor by nine, ten people. And that could last not minutes, the

:37:39. > :37:45.day he was arrested, that lasted, if I recall correctly, 11 hours. And

:37:46. > :37:50.that was actually at a different hospital, a private hospital in

:37:51. > :37:54.Birmingham. 100 miles away. Where you transferred your son because

:37:55. > :38:00.that was a place that specialised in looking after autistic people. That

:38:01. > :38:05.is right. It was our belief, a naive belief, but it was our belief that,

:38:06. > :38:09.for example, his medication would be reduced in the private hospital

:38:10. > :38:13.because they had the specialism, alternative therapies to use. We

:38:14. > :38:20.have since found out that after he left the hospital, actually, the

:38:21. > :38:24.anti-psychotics medication had been tripled, it has the nickname of the

:38:25. > :38:28.chemical straitjacket. It has horrific side-effects that are

:38:29. > :38:34.long-lasting. For instance, it severely affected his speech. He has

:38:35. > :38:39.to go like this when he eats now and he drags his leg behind him when he

:38:40. > :38:44.walks. What do you think about the fact they tripled the medication for

:38:45. > :38:48.your son? I was horrified. I only found out afterwards, I was not

:38:49. > :38:52.consulted, it is something I felt very strongly about because of the

:38:53. > :38:56.negative impact. I could see the negative impact, I could see his

:38:57. > :39:00.speech dramatically deteriorate. When someone with autism has already

:39:01. > :39:07.a communication disorder, for them not to be able to speak. My son had

:39:08. > :39:11.wonderful handwriting, like a fine writer, he lost his ability to use

:39:12. > :39:16.his fine motor skills. His communication was hindered, not

:39:17. > :39:21.helped. You referred to the day your son was arrested, this is when

:39:22. > :39:27.things dramatically escalated. Before his arrest, what happened

:39:28. > :39:40.with his autistic diagnosis? They removed it. What does that mean? The

:39:41. > :39:47.psychiatrist in this sort facility -- this facility said he was not

:39:48. > :39:51.autistic. On that basis -- on what basis, we do not know. We think the

:39:52. > :39:59.reason was so he could be arrested by the police and then he would be

:40:00. > :40:03.responsible for his actions. The Serious Case Review found that

:40:04. > :40:10.finding, referred the psychiatrist to the GMC... The General Medical

:40:11. > :40:20.Council. We thought we would be consulted by the GMC, give our

:40:21. > :40:23.thoughts, but we found three, four months later, that Doctor had no

:40:24. > :40:29.case to answer. Bearing in mind that Doctor had removed somebody asked's

:40:30. > :40:33.diagnosis. I want to bring in your lawyer at this point. From a legal

:40:34. > :40:39.perspective, give me your view on the psychiatrist removing someone's

:40:40. > :40:45.diagnosis and later on the same day them being arrested by the police.

:40:46. > :40:51.The first thing to say, I am not a doctor, but I do think it is at best

:40:52. > :40:55.questionable the decision to remove a long-standing diagnosis of autism

:40:56. > :40:59.and it seems to me that is something that should be done very carefully

:41:00. > :41:07.and through careful consultation, perhaps with the family. So, I think

:41:08. > :41:12.it gives rise to very serious concerns and Adam's arrest was

:41:13. > :41:17.absolutely horrific experience and one that anybody would find

:41:18. > :41:23.extremely upsetting, let alone a man with so many complex needs that in

:41:24. > :41:27.fact could be met and have been met since his discharge from hospital.

:41:28. > :41:33.But the decision to arrest him in the circumstances was extraordinary.

:41:34. > :41:37.I want to ask you about the arrest. If our audience a little insight

:41:38. > :41:47.into what happened that day. We have since found out he was handcuffed,

:41:48. > :41:50.spit hooded, placed in a restraint belt, both around his legs and

:41:51. > :41:59.around his middle, was that right, Nancy? He was obviously taken in the

:42:00. > :42:04.police van alone. For us, as his parents, to think he was in a police

:42:05. > :42:09.cell, miles from our family home and we could do nothing about it, it was

:42:10. > :42:13.horrific. We tried our best, made numerous phone calls... We are

:42:14. > :42:17.showing our audience a demonstration of a spit hooded being put on

:42:18. > :42:23.somebody, it is not Adam, just so the audience understand. He also was

:42:24. > :42:30.physically restrained by the police. It must have been absolutely... We

:42:31. > :42:32.cannot even begin to imagine how terrifying it was for him. We were

:42:33. > :42:38.completely helpless. Nothing we could do. In fairness to the police,

:42:39. > :42:46.they quickly assessed that Adam should not be detained, but because

:42:47. > :42:51.his diagnosis had been removed, both of learning difficulties and of

:42:52. > :42:53.autism, they struggled to find an alternative placement, so he ended

:42:54. > :43:00.up in the police cell for eight hours before being returned back to

:43:01. > :43:05.Wast Hills Hospital. I want to go back to the restraint that you

:43:06. > :43:09.referred to earlier, up to nine people, holding your son down on the

:43:10. > :43:15.floor for up to 11 hours on one occasion. Can you describe what that

:43:16. > :43:23.would look like? I couldn't even think about it, Victoria. I

:43:24. > :43:36.couldn't, honestly, bring myself to think in this 6-foot four lad, a big

:43:37. > :43:42.lad, to be held for that length of time or anybody... Even though at

:43:43. > :43:48.some points his behaviour had been challenging towards staff? Our

:43:49. > :43:51.argument is, he never needed restraining in 18 years before he

:43:52. > :43:58.went into mental health institutions. Since he has left that

:43:59. > :44:04.particular provision, he has not needed restraint in three and a half

:44:05. > :44:08.years. Why was it necessary then? What is your theory? My theory was

:44:09. > :44:12.he was not treated properly, they had no understanding of his autism

:44:13. > :44:16.and no understanding of how to manage the behaviour. Which is

:44:17. > :44:20.astonishing because Wast Hills Hospital is a specialist autistic

:44:21. > :44:26.facility. So they call themselves. So they say. Your son has since been

:44:27. > :44:31.diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of some of the

:44:32. > :44:36.treatment he received. Yes, he has. We were very fortunate in that we

:44:37. > :44:42.had employed an independent social worker who was monitoring the

:44:43. > :44:46.placement at Wast Hills Hospital. Incidentally, he was banned after

:44:47. > :44:51.visiting Adam every two weeks for six months when he raised concerns

:44:52. > :44:58.with the local authorities about lengthy floor restraint and he

:44:59. > :45:04.actually sourced this new placement, Recovery First, and he arrived by

:45:05. > :45:07.secure ambulance without his comfort items. He loves Thomas the Tank

:45:08. > :45:12.Engine and nursery rhymes, they make him feel safe. He arrived there

:45:13. > :45:18.without those items which for somebody with autism is a horrific

:45:19. > :45:23.experience. He was taken on to the ward by up to seven security staff

:45:24. > :45:27.wearing a spit hooded and the ward staff on that day wept that a fellow

:45:28. > :45:32.human being would be treated in such a way. But within three weeks of him

:45:33. > :45:39.being there, his medication had been reduced by two thirds. He was

:45:40. > :45:43.starting to flourish again. There was no special formula, they just

:45:44. > :45:47.understood autism, understood the trauma, worked with the family, and

:45:48. > :45:53.occasionally, they were humble enough to ask themselves, how must

:45:54. > :45:59.it feel for him? And things got better. We had a wonderful

:46:00. > :46:06.psychiatrist who reinstated his diagnosis placing him on the severe

:46:07. > :46:11.end of the spectrum, no at all. And gradually, things got better. He

:46:12. > :46:16.started to be out and about. Community access. Swimming in the

:46:17. > :46:22.sea. Going to the airport. All of the things he loves, his special

:46:23. > :46:26.interests were indulged. It can be done? It can be done. We had lots of

:46:27. > :46:31.home leave and gradually things got better.

:46:32. > :46:37.There was a Serious Case Review. That yes. That recognised there were

:46:38. > :46:41.a number of failings across a number of agencies. You have received

:46:42. > :46:49.around ?45,000 in damages which is paid now to people to look after

:46:50. > :46:55.Adam. Do you want an apology? That's the thing that I most definitely

:46:56. > :47:00.want. The hospital's position has been from the beginning to defend

:47:01. > :47:07.the indefendable and remains that to this day. If I had of had an apology

:47:08. > :47:10.from the beginning I wouldn't have fought for the Serious Case Review.

:47:11. > :47:16.It's the injustice that you can't live with. How can we, we are always

:47:17. > :47:19.told lessons have been learnt. How can we accept that lessons have been

:47:20. > :47:23.learnt when there is no acknowledgement that they have

:47:24. > :47:24.happened in the first place? I have got a statement from West Mercia

:47:25. > :47:27.Police. "West Mercia Police has made a full

:47:28. > :47:31.and final settlement in relation to an incident that took

:47:32. > :47:34.place on 3rd March 2014 Every day our officers and staff

:47:35. > :47:38.have to make quick time decisions in difficult and challenging

:47:39. > :47:40.circumstances in order to protect "The health of welfare of both

:47:41. > :47:53.the people we support and our staff We co-operated in an open

:47:54. > :47:56.and transparent way with the serious case review

:47:57. > :47:58.and all its recommendations This was acknowledged

:47:59. > :48:03.by the Care Quality Commission in its latest inspection report

:48:04. > :48:09.which gave the hospital an "outstanding" rating we are very

:48:10. > :48:12.proud of and is a true reflection of the hard work,

:48:13. > :48:20.commitment and quality You can read more about the Tory on

:48:21. > :48:34.the BBC News site on the BBC website right now.

:48:35. > :48:41.Charlie Gard's parents are spending the final few days with their son.

:48:42. > :48:45.Lawyers say the couple want to spend the maximum amount of time they have

:48:46. > :48:51.left with Charlie. Yesterday he thenneded the case after a US doctor

:48:52. > :48:56.told them it was too late to treat Charlie's rare genetic condition.

:48:57. > :49:00.All we wanted to do with take Charlie from one really renowned

:49:01. > :49:05.hospital to another well renowned in the attempt to save his life and to

:49:06. > :49:08.be treated by the world leader in mitochondrial disease. We have to

:49:09. > :49:15.live with the what ifs which will haunt us for the rest of our lives.

:49:16. > :49:21.Despite the way our beautiful son has been spoken about sometimes as

:49:22. > :49:28.if he is not worthy of the chance of livment our son is a warrior and we

:49:29. > :49:34.will miss him terribly. His body and heart and soul may soon be gone, but

:49:35. > :49:37.his spirit will live on for eternity and he will make a difference to

:49:38. > :49:42.people's lives for years to come, we will make sure of that. We will

:49:43. > :49:50.spend our last precious moments with our son Charlie who unfortunately

:49:51. > :50:02.won't make his first birthday in just under two weeks' time. To

:50:03. > :50:06.Charlie, mummy and daddy love you so much. We always have and we always

:50:07. > :50:11.will and we are so sorry that we couldn't save you. Sweet dreams,

:50:12. > :50:19.baby. Sleep tight, our beautiful little boy, we love you. Great

:50:20. > :50:25.Ormond Street Hospital haven't said when his life support will end. He

:50:26. > :50:31.is not expected to reach his first birthday on 1st August. His parents

:50:32. > :50:38.have battled for months and have had Donald Trump and the Pope intervene.

:50:39. > :50:42.We have spoken to Charlie Gard's parents several times on the

:50:43. > :50:47.programme. We want to do this for Charlie, obviously. He always has

:50:48. > :50:55.been and always will be our number one priority. If anyone in the

:50:56. > :51:00.future is born with this disease we want something that can help this.

:51:01. > :51:04.We want to find a treatment and a cure for mitochondrial disease. We

:51:05. > :51:08.want parents taken into the side room and said we have got something

:51:09. > :51:09.for you. We don't want the devastating news of, "There is

:51:10. > :51:13.nothing wk do." Let's talk to

:51:14. > :51:15.Catherine Glenn Foster. She's director of American's United

:51:16. > :51:17.for Life who have campaigned for Charlie to have experimental

:51:18. > :51:20.treatment. She has been in touch with Connie

:51:21. > :51:23.and Chris since they decided Also Professor Rob George,

:51:24. > :51:31.Medical Director at St Christopher's Hospice

:51:32. > :51:34.in South London and a professor of palliative care at

:51:35. > :51:38.King's College London. And Emma Nottingham,

:51:39. > :51:40.a lecturer in child law at the University of Winchester

:51:41. > :51:51.and a member of the Institute of Welcome all of you. Catherine, what

:51:52. > :51:55.have the parents said to you? What have you said to the parents? Well,

:51:56. > :52:02.as you can imagine they are just devastated at the loss of their son.

:52:03. > :52:04.They have been given information that had he received treatment

:52:05. > :52:10.several months ago then he might have had a chance, but that in these

:52:11. > :52:14.intervening months his muscle tissue has got to the point where this

:52:15. > :52:20.cutting edge treatment can do no good. It would be ineffective

:52:21. > :52:25.apparently. And so, and so we do know that they're doing everything

:52:26. > :52:33.they can for their son. Spending the last precious moments with them, but

:52:34. > :52:38.they're heartbroken. I wonder Emma and professor Rob George what your

:52:39. > :52:41.view is of the parents' belief that had things been done a little

:52:42. > :52:50.earlier then this experimental treatment may have had some impact

:52:51. > :53:00.on Charlie? Well, I think that from my point of view my impression is

:53:01. > :53:04.that Emma and, that Charlie's parents believe that somehow he

:53:05. > :53:08.could have been restored to full health and it seems to me that the

:53:09. > :53:13.evidence is that whatever treatment is available would have had a

:53:14. > :53:17.marginal benefit and I think that is extremely distressing for them to

:53:18. > :53:22.have to face the prospect there is no treatment available, but us on

:53:23. > :53:25.the on the other hand, from medicine's point of view, trying to

:53:26. > :53:30.balance the inevitable con qens of treatments that may not work, with

:53:31. > :53:37.the marginal benefits that they may offer. Emma Nottingham? It's very

:53:38. > :53:43.difficult in these types of cases because you've got to weigh up the

:53:44. > :53:46.benefits against the burdens on the child so, it's going to go to be

:53:47. > :53:51.very difficult for parents to come to terms with the fact that there

:53:52. > :53:54.might have been some marginal benefit and that would have been

:53:55. > :53:59.worth pursuing, but in these types of cases you have to weigh that up

:54:00. > :54:05.against the burdens and if it's going to be a very heavy burden on

:54:06. > :54:10.the child then it is less likely that's going to be allowed to

:54:11. > :54:17.happen. Catherine, how do you react to what we heard in the Supreme

:54:18. > :54:20.Court yesterday? Evidence from the Great Ormond street Hospital that

:54:21. > :54:24.the American doctor had a financial interest and was effectively

:54:25. > :54:26.offering the parents false hope in a damning statement, but

:54:27. > :54:33.diplomatically worded. The hospital said that the doctor who provided

:54:34. > :54:39.the opinions that have sustained Charlie's hopes, and this protracted

:54:40. > :54:45.litigation will find much upon which to reflect? It was not only the

:54:46. > :54:49.doctor, but a team of specialists who advocated for the cutting edge

:54:50. > :54:55.treatment. None of whom had examined Charlie or looked at scans or his

:54:56. > :55:00.medical notes despite an invitation back in January from Great Ormond

:55:01. > :55:03.street Hospital? Well, Connie and Chris did request the transfer. They

:55:04. > :55:08.didn't want to pursue the treatment there. They wanted Charlie to be

:55:09. > :55:13.transferred to New York and in the meantime the doctor has personally

:55:14. > :55:16.examined Charlie, has examined his full medical records and this

:55:17. > :55:21.treatment is an oral treatment that would have been given through milk,

:55:22. > :55:25.it's medically shown that there would be no significant side-effects

:55:26. > :55:30.or risk of causing pain or suffering with this treatment. It is a three

:55:31. > :55:34.month regiment in the course of these court actions could have been

:55:35. > :55:40.completed more than twice over. Professor Rob George, how do you

:55:41. > :55:44.react to that? Well, I think, my principle concern is what Emma was

:55:45. > :55:49.raising and that is the relative burdens and benefits of treatments.

:55:50. > :55:54.As far as I understand it and I don't have the technical details, is

:55:55. > :55:57.that were there any chance of benefit to be accrued from a

:55:58. > :56:01.treatment such as this, there is no doubt in my mind that it would have

:56:02. > :56:04.been offered by Great Ormond street and every step would have been taken

:56:05. > :56:11.to make that possible. But it is very clear, it seems to me, that the

:56:12. > :56:15.likelihood of any benefit, it was so marginal and the burden on Charlie

:56:16. > :56:19.of continuing to be supported in the way that he has, and the potential

:56:20. > :56:23.harms that come from the treatments, made that something that was not

:56:24. > :56:30.really defenceable from medicine's point of view and we have to

:56:31. > :56:34.remember that those of us in medicine have a duty to our patients

:56:35. > :56:40.not to cause harm and that's our over arching priority. Now, various

:56:41. > :56:45.people would say, "Aye, yes, but the harm is that he never got the

:56:46. > :56:47.treatment." But where this treatment feasible and viable, it would have

:56:48. > :56:51.been offered to him. It would have been given to him by Great Ormond

:56:52. > :56:56.Street, of that, I have no doubt. Emma, a final thought from you.

:56:57. > :57:01.Great Ormond street say they will reflect on the words of the judge

:57:02. > :57:06.where he expressed that were his view heeded mediation would be

:57:07. > :57:09.compulsionry. So to avoid future court battles, parents and hospitals

:57:10. > :57:16.in any similar dispute in the future should not end up in court? Yes,

:57:17. > :57:21.this case has given us an opportunity to now reflect on how

:57:22. > :57:25.these types of cases are dealt with and whether it's possible that we

:57:26. > :57:32.can do better or improve the process for all involved. So, one idea is

:57:33. > :57:37.that that this is done through mediation to try and have more

:57:38. > :57:42.communication and improve maybe some of the things that didn't go well in

:57:43. > :57:49.the Charlie Gard case. It's difficult to know whether that will

:57:50. > :57:54.be beneficial because ultimately we are going to sometimes have these

:57:55. > :58:01.cases where the parents and the doctors just can't decide and I

:58:02. > :58:05.think with Charlie Gard's parents and Great Ormond street Hospital,

:58:06. > :58:08.even if they had mediated and debated this extensively, it was

:58:09. > :58:14.very clear that they weren't going to reach an agreement. So, if we

:58:15. > :58:20.have some kind of mediation process, we might still inevitably need the

:58:21. > :58:24.courts because if cases do get that tough then we still need a judge to

:58:25. > :58:27.make that final decision where we can't make an agreement. Thank you

:58:28. > :58:32.all. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Thank you. The

:58:33. > :58:34.latest news and sport shortly. Before that, the weather and here is

:58:35. > :58:42.Carol. Good morning. Temperatures picking

:58:43. > :58:45.up nicely in the sunshine and we certainly do have sunshine. This

:58:46. > :58:49.lovely picture sent in by one of our Weather Watchers earlier of the Isle

:58:50. > :58:55.of Wight. But we also started on a grey note across the east again. An

:58:56. > :58:59.earlier picture from Twickenham. The cloud in the east is starting to

:59:00. > :59:02.break. You can see in the satellite picture where we have got the cloud.

:59:03. > :59:06.Where the holes are and also where we have got the sunshine.

:59:07. > :59:09.Temperatures already 19 Celsius across parts of Wales, south-west

:59:10. > :59:12.England, heading over towards swannage and Bournemouth and this is

:59:13. > :59:15.where we are likely to see the highest temperatures through the

:59:16. > :59:20.day. Through the day we lose any drizzle from the cloud. The cloud

:59:21. > :59:24.breaks up and the sun comes out and it won't feel as cool alongside the

:59:25. > :59:27.North Sea Coast line as it did yesterday because the wind is not

:59:28. > :59:31.strong. We will see showers which could be sharp across the Highlands,

:59:32. > :59:34.but most of Scotland dry. Northern England again largely dry with

:59:35. > :59:38.sunshine. The Midlands dry with sunny spells. The same for East

:59:39. > :59:43.Anglia and Essex and Kent and temperatures 22 and maybe 23 or 24

:59:44. > :59:46.around the London area. Across Hampshire into Dorset, a lot of dry

:59:47. > :59:49.weather. Across south-west England, although there will be a lot of dry

:59:50. > :59:53.and sunny weather around, you could catch a shower as indeed you could

:59:54. > :59:57.across Wales. If you do, they could be sharp, but once again, they will

:59:58. > :00:01.be hit and miss and many of them will miss them. We have had low

:00:02. > :00:04.cloud around this morning over Northern Ireland. That's breaking

:00:05. > :00:07.and again, we are looking at sunny skies coming through. Through the

:00:08. > :00:13.evening and overnight, many of the showers will fade. It's going to be

:00:14. > :00:17.dry more for most of us, but we have got this line of rain and wind

:00:18. > :00:20.coming in from the west. Temperatures not too dissimilar to

:00:21. > :00:24.the night just gone. That's courtesy of this area of low pressure with

:00:25. > :00:28.its fronts bringing the rain from the west to the east. As you can

:00:29. > :00:33.tell by the squeeze on the isobars, it will be a windy day. So heavy

:00:34. > :00:37.rain to start with across Northern Ireland and northern England and the

:00:38. > :00:43.north-west and Scotlandment further south, the rain will be with us and

:00:44. > :00:47.it won't be as heavy, but it will be a blustery day, and as the rain

:00:48. > :00:50.pushes off into the North Sea, behind it it will brighten up with

:00:51. > :00:55.sunshine and showers, but we will hang on to more cloud across most of

:00:56. > :00:58.England and again there will be patchy light rain coming out of

:00:59. > :01:03.that. Highs tomorrow up to 21 Celsius. Through the evening though,

:01:04. > :01:07.we lose the set of fronts. They push off to the near continent, dragging

:01:08. > :01:10.the low pressure to the centre of the south-west. It will brood deuce

:01:11. > :01:14.rain and again, some windy conditions in the north-west. So to

:01:15. > :01:17.put pictures on that, a lot of dry weather to start the day. Then we

:01:18. > :01:22.have got the rain across parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland.

:01:23. > :01:24.Showers across England and Wales and fairly blustery with highs up to 20

:01:25. > :01:29.or 22 Celsius. Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10

:01:30. > :01:31.o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire. The parents of terminally-ill

:01:32. > :01:33.Charlie Gard are spending their last precious

:01:34. > :01:35.moments with their son. They have ended their legal fight

:01:36. > :01:38.to take him to the US for treatment after a US doctor told them

:01:39. > :01:51.it is too late to treat To Charlie, we say, mummy and daddy,

:01:52. > :01:53.we love you so much. We always have and we always will and we are so

:01:54. > :01:55.sorry we couldn't save you. We'll hear from some former

:01:56. > :01:58.Jehovah's Witnesses who say leaving their faith has left

:01:59. > :02:00.them isolated, shunned by friends and family

:02:01. > :02:09.and even feeling suicidal. It is very sad. I have got several

:02:10. > :02:15.brothers and sisters, for instance, who I was quite close to. From the

:02:16. > :02:16.day of my leaving, I have not spoke to them at all.

:02:17. > :02:18.You can hear that full interview shortly.

:02:19. > :02:20.Not just a victory in cricket, but a momentous

:02:21. > :02:23.That's the verdict of some of the England's women's cricket

:02:24. > :02:25.team who won the World Cup on Sunday.

:02:26. > :02:41.Now to the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:02:42. > :02:46.The parents of Charlie Gard so they are preparing to spend their last

:02:47. > :02:49.precious moments with their son after deciding to end their legal

:02:50. > :02:54.battle to take in the US for treatment. Great Ormond Street

:02:55. > :02:58.Hospital where Charlie is on life support said they recognised the

:02:59. > :03:01.agony, desolation and bravery of the decision. The hospital added, they

:03:02. > :03:05.would be giving careful thought to what could be learned from the case.

:03:06. > :03:07.Builders could be banned from selling new homes as leasehold

:03:08. > :03:09.properties in England under proposals put forward

:03:10. > :03:13.It comes after it emerged some housing developers have been selling

:03:14. > :03:15.the leasehold on to investment firms without always telling

:03:16. > :03:17.homeowners, leading to extra costs or rising charges.

:03:18. > :03:19.And Victoria will be speaking to campaigners and representatives

:03:20. > :03:29.from the building industry a little later in this programme.

:03:30. > :03:33.An official report into the use of vaginal mesh implants to treat

:03:34. > :03:37.incontinence and organ prolapse has been described as a

:03:38. > :03:41.Earlier this year, this programme revealed that hundreds of women

:03:42. > :03:46.are living with chronic pain and complications after

:03:47. > :03:52.The report by NHS England has called for better reporting of problems

:03:53. > :03:55.and increased knowledge sharing, but it has not recommended

:03:56. > :04:05.Some breaking news. The number of fatal police shooting fund that's

:04:06. > :04:10.after police pursuits in England and Wales rose significantly last year

:04:11. > :04:17.according to the latest figures. The IPCC found there were six fatal

:04:18. > :04:23.police shooting in 2016-17, the highest for 12 years. 32 people died

:04:24. > :04:25.after police road incidents, the highest total for eight years, 28 of

:04:26. > :04:38.which were from pursuits. A young man with autism has been

:04:39. > :04:41.paid around ?45,000 in damages Adam Nasralla was pinned

:04:42. > :04:47.to the floor and to his bed for 11 hours by nine members of staff

:04:48. > :04:50.at a private hospital in Birmingham. He was sometimes so heavily

:04:51. > :04:52.medicated that he could A local authority investigation

:04:53. > :04:56.found there had been serious That's a summary of the latest BBC

:04:57. > :05:11.News - more at 10.30. We will bring you an interview with

:05:12. > :05:18.Jehovah's Witnesses soon. Luke says, I am writing some of the things I

:05:19. > :05:22.have heard regarding your section on disfellowships. I am a former

:05:23. > :05:26.Jehovah's Witness who left when I was 18 as I no longer believed in

:05:27. > :05:29.the main elements of the religion. I was not baptised, I was not

:05:30. > :05:35.disfellowshipped. I have never been shunned. I feel sometimes Jehovah's

:05:36. > :05:40.Witnesses get bashed in the media because it is a religion people do

:05:41. > :05:44.not understand and they only know as the people who knock on doors and do

:05:45. > :05:48.not celebrate Christmas and birthdays. There are some aspects I

:05:49. > :05:53.do not agree with, but it is no worse than other religions. It is

:05:54. > :05:58.nice to see people talking about Jehovah's Witnesses, but it seems it

:05:59. > :06:03.is only talked about in a bad light. Chris, I am an ex-Jehovah witness, I

:06:04. > :06:09.used to see my son a couple of years ago until they released a talk any

:06:10. > :06:16.association outside of the religion was to be stopped immediately. My

:06:17. > :06:20.son took his GCSEs this year, I will never know what his grades were.

:06:21. > :06:23.This is an evil practice from a hypocritical organisation. That

:06:24. > :06:31.interview to come after the sport. It was a great evening in the pool

:06:32. > :06:34.for Great Britain on day two of the World Aquatics Championships

:06:35. > :06:36.in Hungary, as they As expected, Olympic champion

:06:37. > :06:43.Adam Peaty successfully defended his 100m breaststroke

:06:44. > :06:45.title, just missing out He now holds the top ten times

:06:46. > :06:50.in the world for this distance, finishing over a second ahead

:06:51. > :06:54.of his nearest rival. And in the last hour, Peaty has

:06:55. > :06:59.sliced more than three-tenths of a second off his own

:07:00. > :07:01.50m breaststroke world He'll go in the semifinals

:07:02. > :07:08.later on this evening. GB's second gold went

:07:09. > :07:15.to Commonwealth champion Ben Proud This isn't even his favoured event -

:07:16. > :07:20.that's the 50 metres freestyle - which he competes in at the end

:07:21. > :07:23.of the week. The gold medal was a bit

:07:24. > :07:32.of a surprise...and for no one Winning has not been on my mind and

:07:33. > :07:37.that is really help. Maybe getting a medal would be nice, but... Left

:07:38. > :07:47.speechless. There's been criticism of the RFU's

:07:48. > :07:49.decision not to renew contracts for the England

:07:50. > :07:51.women's fifteen-a-side team. The world champions defend

:07:52. > :07:53.their title in Ireland next month, but afterwards the RFU will shift

:07:54. > :07:56.focus to the sevens squad ahead The RFU say several players will be

:07:57. > :08:03.offered sevens contracts. Those involved in 15 's rugby at the

:08:04. > :08:06.moment, at the elite end, they will potentially have to look for further

:08:07. > :08:10.employment could sustain their ability to be an athlete, said that

:08:11. > :08:13.is where the frustrations are coming from. What is positive there is

:08:14. > :08:18.funding and support but it is not enough. Going forward, there needs

:08:19. > :08:20.to be further investment, not just in rugby, but in other sports, as we

:08:21. > :08:25.have seen with England cricket. Manchester City have broken

:08:26. > :08:27.the world transfer record for a defender by signing Monaco

:08:28. > :08:31.full back Benjamin Mendy The France international has

:08:32. > :08:35.signed a five-year deal. After the signings of Kyle Walker

:08:36. > :08:40.and Daneelo, City have spent almost ?130 million

:08:41. > :08:42.on fullbacks this summer. And former Manchester United forward

:08:43. > :08:48.Javier Hernandez has signed for West Ham from Bayer

:08:49. > :08:50.Leverkhusen for ?16 million. He's Mexico's leading goalscorer

:08:51. > :08:52.and becomes the fourth signing Six years after partially

:08:53. > :09:02.severing his arm in a rally crash, Robert Kubica's hopes of returning

:09:03. > :09:05.to Formula 1 will move a step closer next week when he tests

:09:06. > :09:08.a current Renault car in Hungary. He has already done two tests

:09:09. > :09:11.in a 2012 car and claims his physical limitations don't

:09:12. > :09:12.affect his driving. The official two-day test will allow

:09:13. > :09:15.Renault to compare his performance That is all the sport for now. Back

:09:16. > :09:22.with more later on. Good morning. Next this morning, former

:09:23. > :09:24.Jehovah's Witnesses tell this programme how leaving their faith

:09:25. > :09:26.has left them isolated, shunned from friends and family

:09:27. > :09:29.and even feeling suicidal. Jehovah's Witnesses are members

:09:30. > :09:31.of a Christian-based There are about 6.9 million active

:09:32. > :09:35.Witnesses in the world Members reject the sinful values

:09:36. > :09:45.of the secular world and try to maintain a degree

:09:46. > :09:47.of separation from non-believers. They don't celebrate

:09:48. > :09:49.Christmas or Easter, discourage university

:09:50. > :09:51.education and don't vote. A viewer emailed us to say her son

:09:52. > :09:56.has refused to speak to her or let her see her grandchildren

:09:57. > :09:58.since she decided to stop being She asked us to look

:09:59. > :10:04.into the practice of shunning whereby people are ignored

:10:05. > :10:07.by their family and people in their former congregation

:10:08. > :10:12.when they choose to leave the faith. Speaking publicly for

:10:13. > :10:15.the first time together, three former Jehovah's Witnesses

:10:16. > :10:17.have given us a rare insight into what happens when you stop

:10:18. > :10:20.believing in the religion. One of them is Terri O'Sullivan

:10:21. > :10:23.who stopped being a Jehovah's Sarah and John left much

:10:24. > :10:32.more recently and we've These are not their real

:10:33. > :10:35.names and John's words Give us a little bit of an insight

:10:36. > :10:40.into what it was like growing up as a Jehovah's Witness,

:10:41. > :10:42.Sarah. I was what was classed

:10:43. > :10:45.as a third-generation Jehovah's Witness, so my

:10:46. > :10:48.grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses, my parents

:10:49. > :10:49.were Jehovah's Witnesses, I was limited in my social groups,

:10:50. > :10:57.I wasn't allowed to associate Even then, as I got older,

:10:58. > :11:07.be it living under my parents' roof or with my husband,

:11:08. > :11:10.I wasn't allowed to associate with work friends

:11:11. > :11:12.outside of work, either. Right, so anyone who wasn't

:11:13. > :11:14.a Jehovah's Witness, effectively, you weren't supposed to be friends

:11:15. > :11:17.with or associate with? They believed that

:11:18. > :11:22.bad associations... Well, the scripture they use is, bad

:11:23. > :11:27.associations spoil useful habits. So, anybody outside

:11:28. > :11:29.of the Jehovah's Witness religion That is, friends and even family

:11:30. > :11:36.that aren't Jehovah's Witnesses that have maybe perhaps not converted

:11:37. > :11:39.at the same time, you're not supposed to have anything

:11:40. > :11:44.to do with them, either. What insight would you give

:11:45. > :11:48.our audience in terms of living your life as a Jehovah's

:11:49. > :11:50.Witness? What could you do and

:11:51. > :11:53.what couldn't you do? Well, there was nothing

:11:54. > :11:55.like birthdays or Christmasses, any of that kind of normal

:11:56. > :11:57.celebrations that They were strictly taboo,

:11:58. > :12:02.and that kind of subjected you to a fair bit of jeering

:12:03. > :12:06.and laughing at school. And then the kids would

:12:07. > :12:09.always say things like, what are you waiting for -

:12:10. > :12:11.Christmas? Like Sarah, I didn't

:12:12. > :12:18.have many friends. I did have a couple

:12:19. > :12:21.of friends within school, but association with them was very

:12:22. > :12:25.limited, certainly outside. So, most of my friends

:12:26. > :12:28.were Jehovah's Witnesses, which kind of makes you grow up

:12:29. > :12:33.in a very insular environment, where the only thing you are ever

:12:34. > :12:38.subjected to is other Witnesses and other kind of

:12:39. > :12:41.Witnesses' beliefs. And in terms of going to school,

:12:42. > :12:44.obviously, you went to school. What about higher education -

:12:45. > :12:46.A-levels, university, etc? I got really good GCSE

:12:47. > :12:50.results at school. I had the opportunity

:12:51. > :12:54.to go to university. They encourage you

:12:55. > :12:59.to live a simple... So, a higher qualification

:13:00. > :13:11.is classed as being materialistic. I was encouraged at 16 to get

:13:12. > :13:19.an admin job and pioneer, which is doing a set amount of hours

:13:20. > :13:22.for the Witnesses, I was really discouraged from doing

:13:23. > :13:30.anything, even my A-levels. It was something that I felt very

:13:31. > :13:40.frustrated about, because... Actually, my dad was quite

:13:41. > :13:42.progressive in that he did encourage me to get an education,

:13:43. > :13:44.but the cultural environment of the Witnesses was

:13:45. > :13:49.stronger than he was. I went to school

:13:50. > :13:54.till I was 16, yeah. And then, as a lot of young

:13:55. > :13:58.Witnesses do, I had to start window cleaning, and did that

:13:59. > :14:00.for seven years. So, I missed out on the opportunity

:14:01. > :14:02.to go to university, What insight would you give, Terry,

:14:03. > :14:11.in terms of being brought up Yeah, so, it's a very busy life

:14:12. > :14:20.being a Jehovah's Witness. Certainly when I was a witness,

:14:21. > :14:29.there were three meetings a week. John, you'd been having doubts

:14:30. > :14:31.about being a Jehovah's Witness for many years -

:14:32. > :14:34.what sort of doubts? They were very creeping

:14:35. > :14:35.doubts, little things. I had a lot of questions about some

:14:36. > :14:41.of the teachings that Witnesses believe in,

:14:42. > :14:43.such as their belief Yeah, the Witnesses believe that

:14:44. > :14:53.only a very small amount of people will go to heaven,

:14:54. > :14:56.and the rest of people that survive through Armageddon will go

:14:57. > :14:58.on to live on earth for ever, and they take a scripture

:14:59. > :15:01.from Revelations to believe that the number that will go

:15:02. > :15:03.to heaven will be limited But my own personal

:15:04. > :15:12.reading of the Bible, I... And also, a lot of the Scriptures I

:15:13. > :15:17.would read would kind of indicate that that heavenly life

:15:18. > :15:20.wasn't for everybody. And did you voice those

:15:21. > :15:24.doubts to other members? Not massively.

:15:25. > :15:27.A little bit. I would talk, mostly

:15:28. > :15:29.to my wife about it, Progressively, I would do more

:15:30. > :15:34.and more Bible-reading myself, They tend to read a scripture

:15:35. > :15:40.and marry it up with another scripture, but I would read

:15:41. > :15:44.the whole chapter, or several chapters, and think, actually,

:15:45. > :15:47.this doesn't seem to be saying What did you fear would happen

:15:48. > :15:51.if you stopped being Well, I didn't really

:15:52. > :15:56.know what else to go to. It's quite a frightening thought

:15:57. > :15:59.to believe that what you've been brought up with from a kid,

:16:00. > :16:01.and you completely believe, might not be true, so you tend

:16:02. > :16:07.to kind of mentally block it out. A friend of yours, I think,

:16:08. > :16:10.John, who was also How did that influence how you felt

:16:11. > :16:14.about your religion? By that time, I was already more

:16:15. > :16:20.convinced that what the Witnesses taught wasn't true, or not

:16:21. > :16:24.all of it, anyway. And then he needed a blood

:16:25. > :16:27.transfusion, and he got very ill. It took him a couple

:16:28. > :16:29.of weeks and he died, And then your religion, just

:16:30. > :16:42.to explain, your religion says that Yes, they use a scripture in Acts

:16:43. > :16:48.chapter 15 which says to keep Again, reading through the chapter,

:16:49. > :16:51.I couldn't see any particularly good reason why that should mean someone

:16:52. > :16:57.should have to lay their life down. Again, on that subject,

:16:58. > :17:04.Jehovah's Witnesses in Britain told us, "When we have health problems,

:17:05. > :17:07.we go to doctors who have skill in providing medical

:17:08. > :17:09.and surgical care without blood. Surgeons regularly perform

:17:10. > :17:10.such complex procedures as heart operations,

:17:11. > :17:15.orthopaedic surgery and organ transplants without the use

:17:16. > :17:22.of blood transfusions". You were disfellowshipped -

:17:23. > :17:23.explain what that means. Previously, they would come around

:17:24. > :17:28.to my house and they would say, Why don't you like going

:17:29. > :17:35.to the meetings any more? We would discuss it in points,

:17:36. > :17:41.but then I had a call one day, and they asked me to come

:17:42. > :17:44.to the hall where they worship to have what they call

:17:45. > :17:46.a judicial committee, which is essentially three elders

:17:47. > :17:49.and at least two witnesses to your alleged crime,

:17:50. > :17:52.and they said it was to discuss Well, by that time, I was pretty

:17:53. > :17:57.much convinced that the Witnesses weren't the right religion

:17:58. > :17:59.to inform me, so I said, I really don't recognise your

:18:00. > :18:05.authority, and so they went ahead and had this judicial committee

:18:06. > :18:08.in my absence, and I had a phone call to say that I had been

:18:09. > :18:11.disfellowshipped and I had one It essentially means everybody

:18:12. > :18:19.you know within the Witness organisation, all your friends,

:18:20. > :18:21.or your family, from that point onwards, they make an announcement

:18:22. > :18:23.in the Kingdom Hall, is from that point not allowed

:18:24. > :18:28.to speak to you at all. That has happened, yeah.

:18:29. > :18:35.I mean, it's very sad, you know. I've got several brothers

:18:36. > :18:40.and sisters, for instance, whom I was quite close to,

:18:41. > :18:43.and from the day of my disfellowship, I haven't

:18:44. > :18:45.spoken to them at all. Sometimes I send them a message

:18:46. > :19:02.saying, I love you, thinking of you, I did actually get a message

:19:03. > :19:08.from my brother saying, yeah, I love you too,

:19:09. > :19:14.but that's the strength of it. And Sarah, this has

:19:15. > :19:17.happened to you, too. Much like John, I will try

:19:18. > :19:41.and send the occasional I actually get married

:19:42. > :20:06.in a couple of years' time, and having to plan a wedding

:20:07. > :20:13.where your parents won't attend, where I will actually have no family

:20:14. > :20:18.on my side as I walk down the aisle because of a religious belief,

:20:19. > :20:24.because I left the religion on the basis of my own safety,

:20:25. > :20:27.but because they classed it as being wrong in the Bible,

:20:28. > :20:30.I would class myself as an orphan, Teri, how do your experiences of 17

:20:31. > :20:39.years ago compare to what John and Sarah have described more

:20:40. > :20:47.recently, of being shunned? I mean I wasn't actually

:20:48. > :20:50.disfellowshipped like they were, so I managed to leave

:20:51. > :20:55.without getting, er... As far as they were aware,

:20:56. > :20:59.breaking any of their rules so I didn't have a judicial

:21:00. > :21:05.committee and I moved away as well. But the thing is, they still shun

:21:06. > :21:09.you anyway so officially they don't So what would happen

:21:10. > :21:20.if I was in the town where I grew up and I saw a Witness,

:21:21. > :21:22.they would cross the street. This is people you grew up

:21:23. > :21:26.with as a child, you've been on holiday with them,

:21:27. > :21:28.these were your best friends. Like I said, we didn't have friends

:21:29. > :21:32.outside the religion so you would be seeing them every week and spend

:21:33. > :21:34.time around their house, they would be at your house,

:21:35. > :21:39.that sort of thing. I'm sure you guys have had that

:21:40. > :21:51.experience plenty of times as well. It's just a very common

:21:52. > :21:53.experience for ex-Witnesses. Yes, so obviously, like,

:21:54. > :22:01.one of my sisters who is still in the religion,

:22:02. > :22:03.I have no contact with her and she has two children who,

:22:04. > :22:06.one's just leaving school and one I guess is at high school now,

:22:07. > :22:11.and I don't know them. I also don't know my sister

:22:12. > :22:13.because she was disfellowshipped And for five years,

:22:14. > :22:20.when she was trying to get reinstated she would sit at the back

:22:21. > :22:23.of the Kingdom Hall. So when they want to come back

:22:24. > :22:26.to the religion they have to sit at the back of the Kingdom

:22:27. > :22:28.Hall for each meeting, And that went on for

:22:29. > :22:36.sort of five years. And yes, so that was

:22:37. > :22:39.all of my childhood, and then when she got

:22:40. > :22:42.reinstated I left, so I don't I don't know what kind

:22:43. > :22:50.of food she likes. I don't know

:22:51. > :22:52.what she does at the weekend, you know, I don't know

:22:53. > :22:55.what she does for fun. It's knowing that you have a sister

:22:56. > :22:57.that you don't know Sarah, did you know that

:22:58. > :23:03.you would be shunned, effectively, if you didn't submit

:23:04. > :23:06.to the way your husband Yes, but you have a hope, I suppose,

:23:07. > :23:13.that your family would still love That was a driving point that

:23:14. > :23:29.made me stay probably because I was terrified

:23:30. > :23:35.I had no support network And I knew if I left,

:23:36. > :23:48.I would have nobody. So it was what was the

:23:49. > :23:53.lesser of two evils. And when you did leave,

:23:54. > :23:55.when you were shunned, I went from bed to bed at friends'

:23:56. > :24:05.houses from work that I had not known two minutes,

:24:06. > :24:11.and these people rally round me, these people that I'd been told

:24:12. > :24:14.were awful and a bad association and God was going to smite

:24:15. > :24:17.them all at Armageddon. And yet these people

:24:18. > :24:21.opened up their homes. All of my colleagues

:24:22. > :24:27.in my office at the time, I stayed there and everybody made

:24:28. > :24:31.sure I was all right and I was safe. Because you wouldn't have friends

:24:32. > :24:34.or a support network outside the religion

:24:35. > :24:36.either, would you? I mean, immediately

:24:37. > :24:44.after the disfellowshipping, I was still within my family

:24:45. > :24:53.home for, er... It turned out that my wife was one

:24:54. > :24:56.of the Witnesses in the judicial committee, that put a huge

:24:57. > :24:58.strain on our relationship For a while I lived in a tent

:24:59. > :25:09.and then I lived in a caravan. It was kind of on my own doing

:25:10. > :25:15.because I chose to leave but I just felt I couldn't stay in that

:25:16. > :25:17.environment any more. That summer was probably

:25:18. > :25:22.the hardest time of my life. I didn't have anybody at all.

:25:23. > :25:25.I felt quite suicidal to be honest. I have a fantastic support network

:25:26. > :25:34.of people that really care about me and really give me everything

:25:35. > :25:36.I need. How do you reflect, Sarah,

:25:37. > :25:42.on your life as a Jehovah's I won't sit here and say

:25:43. > :25:50.it was all bad because you find good people and bad people everywhere,

:25:51. > :25:57.and there are good people in the religion that genuinely think

:25:58. > :26:01.that they are saving people's life and that they are doing

:26:02. > :26:05.the right thing. But I look back and I think,

:26:06. > :26:08.who could have I been? Where could I have gone if I had had

:26:09. > :26:12.the opportunities that What type of person

:26:13. > :26:21.would I have been? I mean I'm more than trying to make

:26:22. > :26:25.up for it now with Christmas and birthdays and things like that,

:26:26. > :26:29.but I look back with some happy memories because they were the last

:26:30. > :26:32.memories I had with my family But then I do have to look back

:26:33. > :26:39.and feel a lot of heartbreak that I'm never going to really ever be

:26:40. > :26:45.able to sit down for a Sunday meal with them again, or when they die

:26:46. > :26:48.I probably won't be invited They are decent people and this

:26:49. > :26:58.was one of the things that made it so hard to distance myself from them

:26:59. > :27:03.because, you know, they're moral, they are

:27:04. > :27:05.generally very moral people. They have high standards,

:27:06. > :27:07.and if the whole world was Jehovah's Witnesses

:27:08. > :27:09.there would probably be But it comes at a big cost

:27:10. > :27:22.of personal freedom. We'd like to add that those

:27:23. > :27:25.allegations against Sarah's former In a statement, the religious group

:27:26. > :27:29.told us, "If a baptised Witness makes a practice of breaking

:27:30. > :27:32.the Bible's moral code, and does not give evidence

:27:33. > :27:34.of stopping the practice, he or she will be shunned

:27:35. > :27:36.or disfellowshipped. When it comes to shunning,

:27:37. > :27:38.Witnesses take their instructions from the Bible and on this subject

:27:39. > :27:46.the Bible clearly states, "Remove the wicked man

:27:47. > :27:58.from amongst yourselves". Myles says Joe hoe vas witnesses

:27:59. > :28:01.don't disfellowship for someone not attending a memorial service. They

:28:02. > :28:05.provide support for one that is need help. Separation is a personal

:28:06. > :28:09.choice and attending the memorial is a personal choice. Please check your

:28:10. > :28:12.facts before publishing lies. Can I suggest a full apology and an

:28:13. > :28:21.article which shows how loving and valuable to the community this group

:28:22. > :28:26.is? You can find plenty of material on JW dot org. Another viewer says,

:28:27. > :28:31."We grew up scared. Scared of doing normal things like having friends

:28:32. > :28:34.and listening to music, dancing, having boyfriends and going to

:28:35. > :28:40.university, in case God joined us and would murder us at the end of

:28:41. > :28:45.the world. My parents actively shunned my disfellowship sister. My

:28:46. > :28:48.sister nearly died as a child as she was refused a blood transfusion when

:28:49. > :28:52.very ill. We have suffered the grief of losing our parents whilst they

:28:53. > :28:55.are still alive. We have struggled in adulthood to find careers and

:28:56. > :28:58.friendships as all of these things were considered worldly. It took

:28:59. > :29:02.years of counselling and bravery to come out of the cult and make a

:29:03. > :29:07.normal life. I'm so glad someone is talking about this." One more for

:29:08. > :29:10.now and there have been many. Sue says, "I'm glad you're discussing

:29:11. > :29:15.this. I was brought up in the faith and it is the most ostracising

:29:16. > :29:21.religion. I would never go into Assembly all my school life. I would

:29:22. > :29:27.have to stand outside the hall. Aprart in the new No Christmas,

:29:28. > :29:32.birthday and harvest festival, none of which I could join in. I would

:29:33. > :29:35.lie to other children. I tried to explain to my mum how it affected

:29:36. > :29:38.me. She really does not understand or maybe doesn't want to as she

:29:39. > :29:50.still believes in this faith. By the way, we decided to look into

:29:51. > :29:53.this issue after the viewer e-mailed us.

:29:54. > :29:56.If you've got a story you'd like us to look at,

:29:57. > :30:01.The Equal Pay Act came into force in 1970.

:30:02. > :30:03.But nearly five decades on, we're still talking

:30:04. > :30:06.In her first speech as Prime Minister a year

:30:07. > :30:09.ago, Theresa May spoke of the burning injustice that

:30:10. > :30:11.if you're a woman, you will earn less than a man.

:30:12. > :30:14.The debate was reignited last week when the BBC published the salaries

:30:15. > :30:16.of on-air men and women earning more than ?150,000.

:30:17. > :30:19.It showed in some cases there was a pay gap between what men

:30:20. > :30:23.Meanwhile, under new laws, all businesses with more than 250

:30:24. > :30:27.employees have until next April to publish the salaries

:30:28. > :30:33.So, let's speak to some women affected by the gender pay gap.

:30:34. > :30:40.We can speak now to Lynn Knapp, a primary school head teacher.

:30:41. > :30:42.Among leaders of educational institutions, there

:30:43. > :30:51.Bridgett Bartlett is a senior female figure in the construction sector,

:30:52. > :30:53.and a Chartered Institute of Building Department

:30:54. > :30:56.The construction industry has the biggest pay gap

:30:57. > :30:58.of all sectors, according the Office for National Statistics.

:30:59. > :31:01.There is a 45% pay gap among construction and building

:31:02. > :31:04.Gudrun Ravetz, works day to day as a vet,

:31:05. > :31:06.and is also president of the British Vetinery Association.

:31:07. > :31:09.The veterinary profession is one of the few

:31:10. > :31:11.where women are on average paid 8% more than men.

:31:12. > :31:13.And Kiran Dhurka, who is an employment law specialist

:31:14. > :31:17.She's fought numerous cases where women have been paid less

:31:18. > :31:31.Bridgett starting with the construction sector, massive

:31:32. > :31:35.disparity, 45%, why? It is a really serious issue, five decades on, we

:31:36. > :31:41.should not be here. It depends where you are in the construction

:31:42. > :31:49.industry. As a chartered professional, there will be 2%...

:31:50. > :31:53.Should you be grateful? We deserve equal pay and we have done for the

:31:54. > :31:58.last five decades. I was coming at age in the 70s, I thought,

:31:59. > :32:03.everything is going to be all right. Now nearing retirement, the same

:32:04. > :32:06.discriminate who practices exist. However, it is cleared the

:32:07. > :32:10.construction industry is gradually improving, particularly in the last

:32:11. > :32:15.ten years, average pay has increased from 24,000 to just under 40,000.

:32:16. > :32:22.Women are seeing a 6% pay increase year on year. But it is not good

:32:23. > :32:26.enough. Men are often the first to get promotion. Women complain about

:32:27. > :32:31.being overlooked. It is a serious issue. Is it meant hiring people who

:32:32. > :32:36.look like them and giving them better salaries? Is it as simple as

:32:37. > :32:40.that? Not quite as simple. The industry appreciates it has a huge

:32:41. > :32:45.skills problem, it needs to recruit more women. It is predicted that by

:32:46. > :32:54.2020, to fill the gaps, we will need to have 12 to 5% of the industry --

:32:55. > :32:59.25% of the industry being women. It does not explain the plain clap. But

:33:00. > :33:03.it does make it easier to fix. It is encouraging that companies with more

:33:04. > :33:07.than 250 staff have to publish, but our industry is fragmented, lots of

:33:08. > :33:11.subcontractors with a small number of employees. I would encourage the

:33:12. > :33:16.Government to get people in our industry particularly anywhere where

:33:17. > :33:20.there is more than a 10% gender pay gap to actually publish because only

:33:21. > :33:25.by having better transparency, as we have had last week courtesy of the

:33:26. > :33:29.BBC's revelations, will we actually address this issue and I have been

:33:30. > :33:36.waiting for it to be addressed for 40 years. I do not want to wait any

:33:37. > :33:39.longer. Lynn, in terms of senior professionals in education,

:33:40. > :33:44.headteachers like yourself, 61% of the workforce is female, but men in

:33:45. > :33:49.the top roles get on average 20% more pay than someone like yourself.

:33:50. > :33:53.Why? I think men get promoted more quickly, particularly in primary

:33:54. > :33:57.schools, men are quite rare. People like to have a man in school,

:33:58. > :34:01.particularly when it is a primary school. Governors appoint teachers

:34:02. > :34:05.and headteachers and I think you will often hear in school, wouldn't

:34:06. > :34:10.it be great to have a man on the staff? It does not explain why they

:34:11. > :34:13.get paid more. Because the way the system works, you can choose where

:34:14. > :34:19.their headteacher goes on the pay scale. If you have a pay scale in

:34:20. > :34:23.the school and a man is put at a higher grade than a female member of

:34:24. > :34:29.staff, you start to get the disparity. They become like gold

:34:30. > :34:34.dust. It is supply and demand. It is, particularly in primary schools.

:34:35. > :34:38.But it does not justify it. No, we do the same role. I know

:34:39. > :34:42.headteachers managing smaller schools getting paid more because

:34:43. > :34:48.they are a male in a primary profession where they are clearly

:34:49. > :34:53.like gold dust. Let us talk about the veterinary profession because it

:34:54. > :34:58.is unusual in that women on average are paid about 8% more than men.

:34:59. > :35:01.That is also unfair. It is a really interesting figure because when we

:35:02. > :35:07.look at the benchmark surveys for the profession, pulled from a

:35:08. > :35:10.similar number as for the Office for National Statistics, it shows a

:35:11. > :35:17.different figure. A contrary view. What does your research show? Her

:35:18. > :35:21.our women are paid 16% less than men, it is true for full-time

:35:22. > :35:27.figures as well. The reason it is coming through is there are many

:35:28. > :35:31.more men in senior positions, as we have heard, in headteachers, and

:35:32. > :35:35.although we have a great number of women in the profession, a lot more

:35:36. > :35:38.men in senior positions, often business owners, directors, they

:35:39. > :35:41.would not come into these figures because they would not be coming

:35:42. > :35:48.through the PAYE and they are earning more and we know male

:35:49. > :35:51.graduates often earn more sooner after qualification than female

:35:52. > :35:54.graduates in the veterinary profession. The figure shows an

:35:55. > :35:59.indifferent, probably similar to what you have been saying. What has

:36:00. > :36:03.to be addressed in your particular profession to make sure there is

:36:04. > :36:08.equal pay for doing the same job? Listening to everybody, it is

:36:09. > :36:12.society. We have not got the silver bullet. As a profession, we are

:36:13. > :36:15.running a project that is looking into this area of why it is

:36:16. > :36:20.happening, what is happening with the graduates and white are their

:36:21. > :36:25.pay disparities. We do not have as many men in the profession as women

:36:26. > :36:29.and they are doing an incredibly valuable job, the same job, as

:36:30. > :36:33.highly qualified. But having the answer, there are theories and we

:36:34. > :36:36.need to see if they applied to the veterinary profession. We know women

:36:37. > :36:41.are not reaching the senior levels in the same way so that is

:36:42. > :36:45.increasing the pay disparity, but we do not know why it is happening and

:36:46. > :36:52.that is why we are looking into this. In terms of you acting on

:36:53. > :36:57.behalf of women who have discovered they are doing the same work as men

:36:58. > :37:01.but being paid less, Kiran, you will have heard the argument, no one does

:37:02. > :37:07.exactly the same job. Is it possible to prove you do? Yeah, women prove

:37:08. > :37:12.it every day and get findings in employment tribunal 's and

:37:13. > :37:16.grievances... But people will say, their experience is different, what

:37:17. > :37:20.they bring to it is different. This is a really difficult area because

:37:21. > :37:23.employers are so defensive. They often do not understand how

:37:24. > :37:31.subjective their reasoning is over pay justification. Actually, we need

:37:32. > :37:34.a much clearer system as to why women and men are paid in certain

:37:35. > :37:42.ways. They need to think through, is it really... Five years experience,

:37:43. > :37:45.does it matter? How much more does ten years experience at? Market

:37:46. > :37:51.value, what market are you looking at? I do not think there is real

:37:52. > :37:56.transparency or discussion over the criteria of pay. Finally, from all

:37:57. > :38:00.of you, let us be specific, you have research going on in your industry

:38:01. > :38:05.to see the reasons, what are your theories about why this still

:38:06. > :38:08.happens in Britain in 2017? Traditionally, it has happened, and

:38:09. > :38:13.I do not think we have confronted it, we have said there are problems,

:38:14. > :38:17.but we have not said, why is this happening? There are theories that

:38:18. > :38:21.perhaps women are not asking, but I'm not convinced. It is a knock on

:38:22. > :38:24.that if it is an employer, they think, we will not offer it. We do

:38:25. > :38:38.not know. We are getting to the point because

:38:39. > :38:39.it has become so prominent, we are actively thinking. Within the

:38:40. > :38:42.veterinary profession, I do not think employers go out to go, I want

:38:43. > :38:45.to give a male employee more. It is subconscious. It is creeping and

:38:46. > :38:48.seeping and we have to stand up and say, it is not right, looking at how

:38:49. > :38:53.we sought pay structures, looking at how you pay people, rather than

:38:54. > :38:57.doing the traditional, if I ask, I may get. It really is based on

:38:58. > :39:00.maternity and there is this preconception that women are not

:39:01. > :39:05.committed, they will leave the workforce, they do not progress.

:39:06. > :39:08.Once they return, there are all sorts of stereotypes around women at

:39:09. > :39:14.a particular age. Also, there are too few women around the boardroom

:39:15. > :39:17.tables. In our industry, there are only a handful of us considered to

:39:18. > :39:22.be senior in the industry. We bump into each other all the time because

:39:23. > :39:25.we are so few. You need women around the boardroom table because they

:39:26. > :39:32.will start looking at those practices and challenging them. Not

:39:33. > :39:35.always. One would hope they would. OK, thank you. We will see what

:39:36. > :39:43.happens. Thank you for coming on the programme, all of you.

:39:44. > :39:45.England's women cricketers stunned fans at Lord's on Sunday

:39:46. > :39:48.when they fought back against India to win the World Cup.

:39:49. > :39:50.But it wasn't just a victory for England -

:39:51. > :39:54.One of the team's bowlers has described it as a watershed moment

:39:55. > :39:59.The players say they set out to inspire girls to play cricket

:40:00. > :40:01.and the way they have played has most certainly done that.

:40:02. > :40:03.Following their victory, former England all-rounder,

:40:04. > :40:06.I've been trying for years and today, finally, my daughters

:40:07. > :40:08.Thank you @englandcricket women, inspirational.

:40:09. > :40:11.Let's take you back now to Lord's to relive that momentous win.

:40:12. > :40:15.On strike. Six wickets for Anya Shrubsole, England's hair! England

:40:16. > :40:18.win the World Cup in front of a packed house at Lords who go nuts in

:40:19. > :40:24.the crowd. APPLAUSE

:40:25. > :40:30.England in a huddle. Listen to that noise, for an England women's team

:40:31. > :40:35.winning the World Cup on home soil in 2017. England have done it by

:40:36. > :40:38.just nine runs at Lords. But it wasn't just

:40:39. > :40:40.a victory for England - One of the team's bowlers has

:40:41. > :40:49.described it as a watershed moment I have said that! Let us introduce

:40:50. > :40:55.two of the team, Tammy Beaumont and Alex Hartley. I have just seen the

:40:56. > :41:04.World Cup, how heavy is it? Really heavy! Lift it. It looks really

:41:05. > :41:09.liked! Congratulations, both of you. As it sunk in? No, not yet. We keep

:41:10. > :41:14.having to pinch ourselves, having the trophy today, incredible, to be

:41:15. > :41:20.in front of a packed house at Lords, the cherry on top. What about you,

:41:21. > :41:24.Alex? It has not sunk in yet, but absolutely a dream come true. The

:41:25. > :41:33.trophy next to us, everything I have drained of as a young child. --

:41:34. > :41:41.dreams of. I was there on Sunday with mums and dads and kids, all of

:41:42. > :41:45.them boys. You know what, India were cruising to victory, chasing a

:41:46. > :41:51.fairly modest 229 to win. What happened at the end? So tense! Anya

:41:52. > :41:54.Shrubsole is what happened! An absolute hero, she bowled

:41:55. > :41:59.fantastically. It was an unbelievable win in the end. In

:42:00. > :42:03.terms of her story, just for those who do not know, she first visited

:42:04. > :42:09.Lourdes in 2001 when her dad was playing for Bath and she tweeted she

:42:10. > :42:14.would love to play in a final one day at Lord's for England -- she

:42:15. > :42:21.visited Lourdes. It was incredible she got the opportunity. She dreamt

:42:22. > :42:27.of it as a young child. Tammy, real inspiration for anyone who wants to

:42:28. > :42:30.play in a final, buy or girl, do you agree? Definitely. We saw so many

:42:31. > :42:34.young girls and boys around the pitch after the game, just

:42:35. > :42:37.incredible, no better time to be playing women and girls cricket in

:42:38. > :42:42.this country. Hopefully the start of something brilliant for the sport.

:42:43. > :42:46.Tammy, you have spoken about how you used to have doubts that you were

:42:47. > :42:53.good enough. Tell us a bit about that, give us more insight. Yeah,

:42:54. > :42:57.pretty tricky start to my career, in and out of the team. Two years ago,

:42:58. > :43:01.I thought I had played my last game for England. The coach came in,

:43:02. > :43:05.massive second chance for me. I have taken it with both hands and now we

:43:06. > :43:09.are here as world champions and it feels incredible, all the tears back

:43:10. > :43:13.in the day have been worth it. What did you do to turn things around for

:43:14. > :43:18.yourself? Loads of people watching will either have experienced it

:43:19. > :43:22.themselves or through their kids, one minute you are in the team, the

:43:23. > :43:26.next, you are not. It was just a case of going back to why I started

:43:27. > :43:29.playing the game, I have always loved playing cricket, it got to the

:43:30. > :43:34.point where I worked out exactly what I wanted to do and how I needed

:43:35. > :43:39.to get there and I decided I wanted to try and become one of the best

:43:40. > :43:51.opening batters in the world, I am not there yet, but it started a

:43:52. > :43:53.journey for me. To get a second chance and Rob Owen, not looking

:43:54. > :43:56.back, always believing in myself, listening to the people that count,

:43:57. > :43:58.the coach, my mum and dad, some of my closest friends, that was all

:43:59. > :44:01.that mattered. Clearly you put the hard work in. Alex, give us an

:44:02. > :44:07.insight into the kind of routine you have in order to become a world

:44:08. > :44:16.champion. For me, I moved from Lancashire down the Middlesex when I

:44:17. > :44:21.was four -- four years ago. At Loughborough, three days a week.

:44:22. > :44:26.Just seen an awful photo of me on the screen! Three days a week,

:44:27. > :44:32.Loughborough training. Dream come true. Fantastic. I know you know

:44:33. > :44:35.about Paul Collingwood's tweaked, former England player, saying,

:44:36. > :44:42.finally, because of your achievement, his daughters will get

:44:43. > :44:47.into cricket. Let us have a look at that. That is quite... Do you feel

:44:48. > :44:54.that is a responsibility or does it make you happy? That is one of them

:44:55. > :44:57.tweets that touched me quite a lot. It is amazing to see we have

:44:58. > :45:01.inspired some young girls to play cricket and hopefully that will

:45:02. > :45:05.continue and it just shows how exciting the tournament has been and

:45:06. > :45:09.how much the crowd have got involved and the British public have been

:45:10. > :45:13.amazing. What are the conversations you have had with young girls about

:45:14. > :45:26.them getting into cricket? When we first started a lot of us

:45:27. > :45:30.are role models. We were in the men's game and for girls to be

:45:31. > :45:35.cheering you on and really excited to get an autograph or a picture, it

:45:36. > :45:39.brings a smile to my face and I'm sure the other girls feel the same.

:45:40. > :45:43.I can't really believe that we are role models. We're normal people

:45:44. > :45:48.really. To be seen like that and try and influence the future of women's

:45:49. > :45:54.cricket is amazing. Well, thank you both of you. In terms of your hopes

:45:55. > :46:00.for women's cricket, how much is this going to change things and what

:46:01. > :46:05.do you hope for? Yeah, it will massively change things. What we did

:46:06. > :46:11.on Sunday has never been achieved before. We sold out Lords and

:46:12. > :46:13.hopefully we can inspire the next generation of young cricketers.

:46:14. > :46:16.Thank you very much. Thank you. Congratulations again to you and the

:46:17. > :46:17.rest of the team. We really appreciate you talking to us.

:46:18. > :46:23.Cheers. Thank you very much. Next this morning, unfair charges

:46:24. > :46:28.levied on buyers of new-build houses could be banned in England under

:46:29. > :46:30.a proposed crackdown. Leaseholds on new homes would be

:46:31. > :46:33.outlawed, while ground rents could be dramatically reduced,

:46:34. > :46:35.under government plans which are Earlier this year, this programme

:46:36. > :46:41.revealed how ground rents can double every decade,

:46:42. > :46:42.crippling home owners and in some cases making

:46:43. > :46:44.a property impossible to sell. The Communities Secretary,

:46:45. > :46:47.Sajid Javid, says that the situation If you take parts of Cheshire

:46:48. > :47:05.and Greater Manchester and there are some developments

:47:06. > :47:07.there that are almost entirely leasehold houses

:47:08. > :47:10.and when you explore this and you look at it in detail,

:47:11. > :47:13.there is no good reason and then what makes it worse is that often

:47:14. > :47:18.those come attached with ground rent clauses that see an ever

:47:19. > :47:26.escalating rent increase. In many cases, I have seen,

:47:27. > :47:28.they can go up from, so they start at something that

:47:29. > :47:31.sounds reasonable a couple of hundred of pounds a year and then

:47:32. > :47:34.within 30 to 40 years Well, in February of this

:47:35. > :47:38.year our reporter, James Longman, exposed what had been taking place

:47:39. > :47:40.on new build developments It sells that house

:47:41. > :47:45.to Mr and Mrs Smith. But what is sold is

:47:46. > :47:50.the lease to that house. They haven't sold

:47:51. > :47:53.the ground it's on. That's the freehold

:47:54. > :47:55.and they keep that. This is the crucial bit -

:47:56. > :47:58.a couple of years later, the developer is then able to sell

:47:59. > :48:01.the freehold, that's the ground that It's a way of making money

:48:02. > :48:08.on the same house twice. And here is the other catch -

:48:09. > :48:12.because it's a house and not a flat, the law says that the developer does

:48:13. > :48:16.not have to warn Mr and Mrs Smith that they're going to do any of this

:48:17. > :48:19.and this whole business is worth hundreds of millions of pounds every

:48:20. > :48:24.year to the developers. This is Ellesmere Port

:48:25. > :48:28.near Liverpool. It's a development like thousands

:48:29. > :48:31.of others across the UK. The developers keep the freehold

:48:32. > :48:41.in order to sell them separately. So people living here

:48:42. > :48:43.are essentially living on ground which has been sold

:48:44. > :48:45.from underneath their feet I had no idea that my home would be

:48:46. > :48:50.used as an endless income stream for an investor or somebody else's

:48:51. > :48:52.pension pot because Katie Kendrick bought her home

:48:53. > :48:59.from Bellway developers. She was never told her

:49:00. > :49:05.freehold would be sold off. Now, she wants to buy it, the price

:49:06. > :49:08.has gone from ?4,000 to ?13,000. I've asked the company

:49:09. > :49:14.for a breakdown of how The methodology to the valuation

:49:15. > :49:20.to which they have failed They've said that I can either go

:49:21. > :49:29.with it or if I challenge it, then I have to take on their legal

:49:30. > :49:32.fees to do so. They have said that I can come back

:49:33. > :49:35.with a counter offer, but without all of the information

:49:36. > :49:38.on how they calculate the freehold, how can I make an informed decision

:49:39. > :49:41.how to counteract their offer? So at the moment I just feel

:49:42. > :49:45.completely blind and in a corner. Since then Katie Kendrick's campaign

:49:46. > :49:48.on Facebook has gone national and over 5,000 people who've fallen

:49:49. > :49:51.foul of the leasehold rule are Lisa Chapple says her life

:49:52. > :50:02.is being ruined by the hike in leasehold fees

:50:03. > :50:05.she now has to pay. He represents the

:50:06. > :50:08.Housebuilders Association. And Clive Betts chairs

:50:09. > :50:20.the Communities and Local OK. So, Katie, in terms of what the

:50:21. > :50:23.Communities Secretary has said today, what are you thinking? Well,

:50:24. > :50:27.obviously this is really welcome news and this is a massive step in

:50:28. > :50:31.the right direction. But, you know, let's not forget that thousands of

:50:32. > :50:36.people are already stuck. This, as I said, it is a step in the right

:50:37. > :50:40.direction, but it is still a far way from fixing what is already broken.

:50:41. > :50:45.OK. What in your view specifically needs to change tomorrow? Well,

:50:46. > :50:50.there needs to be an outright ban on leasehold moving forward, but we

:50:51. > :50:53.need to address how we're going to get people back into owning their

:50:54. > :51:01.own homes which is what we thought we were going to do. So we want our

:51:02. > :51:04.freeholds. Right, so you want retrospective action effectively?

:51:05. > :51:07.Absolutely. That's the only way that it is going to be resolved for all

:51:08. > :51:12.of the thousands that are already stuck with these unsellable houses.

:51:13. > :51:15.We have got a statement from the house building company Taylor

:51:16. > :51:17.Wimpey. They say this in response to the Government's planned

:51:18. > :51:22.consultation, "We are working hard with the freeholders to convert our

:51:23. > :51:32.customers doubling leases at our expense. Taylor Wimpey set aside

:51:33. > :51:39.?130 million on converting the leases on our customers behalf." Is

:51:40. > :51:45.that helpful? Our view is this is no more than a sticking plaster on a

:51:46. > :51:49.weeping sore. This is not going to allow leaseholders to purchase their

:51:50. > :51:53.freeholds. This is only going to revert them to RPI lease which is

:51:54. > :51:58.not what we want. We want people to own their freeholds. It is the only

:51:59. > :52:01.way out. The Taylor wumpy offer is not as good as it seems. It is just

:52:02. > :52:06.skimming over a really bad situation that they have created. OK. Lisa,

:52:07. > :52:10.hello. Thank you for coming on the programme. Tell our audience about

:52:11. > :52:16.how your ground rent is due to double? . We bought our property in

:52:17. > :52:20.December of 2009. We did know we were buying a leasehold property and

:52:21. > :52:23.we knew it was going to be ?250 a year, but we were never told it was

:52:24. > :52:28.going to increase, never mind double. With they found out in

:52:29. > :52:34.January this year that our's is due to double in January of 2018 which

:52:35. > :52:40.is at the ten year mark, even though we have not gun in our property ten

:52:41. > :52:46.years, but it is based on when the land was bought and sold. That will

:52:47. > :52:51.be what? We will double to ?500 in January 2018. And when did you

:52:52. > :52:55.realise that? Clearly not early enough beforehand? No, we found out

:52:56. > :53:00.in January of this year. So January 2017 and that's when we started to

:53:01. > :53:05.campaign from then. We were never informed of this at all, even by the

:53:06. > :53:13.solicitors or Taylor Wimpey who was our house-builder. OK. So let me

:53:14. > :53:16.bring in Rico from the House Builders' Association who do you

:53:17. > :53:20.represent? Small and medium sized house builders and constructors. We

:53:21. > :53:24.are the house building division of the National Federation of Builders.

:53:25. > :53:28.So what is the justification for building new homes with leaseholds?

:53:29. > :53:32.Well, I mean it really depends. If perhaps you are local authority or a

:53:33. > :53:39.council trying to build property on land you already own and perhaps you

:53:40. > :53:44.want a lease of 150 or 200 years or perhaps you have a National Trust...

:53:45. > :53:48.Let's talk about normal people like Lisa or Katie of the what's the

:53:49. > :53:52.justification? Well, from our point of view and none of our members

:53:53. > :53:57.provide that business model. When I spoke to a member, taking Lisa's

:53:58. > :54:04.point in ten years, she will see an increase of ?500, that would take

:54:05. > :54:10.150 years which doubles from ?100 and it goes to ?100 every 30 years.

:54:11. > :54:16.So 60 years, ?2-90 years, ?300. That's fairer. Especially when you

:54:17. > :54:21.are consider the cost perhaps of sustainable drainage or the lighting

:54:22. > :54:26.on a site. I can see Lisa shaking her head in disagreement. Sorry, I

:54:27. > :54:30.disagree with that because we were never told it was ever to double.

:54:31. > :54:34.How can we ever make an informed decision? We thought we were buying

:54:35. > :54:38.our property and also actually our lease is capped at 50 years, but it

:54:39. > :54:43.doubles every ten years which we have only found out about. So in

:54:44. > :54:48.2058 which sounds a very long time away, we will be paying ?8,000 a

:54:49. > :54:53.year in ground rent alone and actually I will be paying long-term

:54:54. > :55:00.about ?182,000 just on leasehold alone, never mind my mortgage or

:55:01. > :55:06.what my house is worth. Let me bring in Clive Betts Labour MP. Is this

:55:07. > :55:12.simply financial exploitation by the big house builders? Well, I can't

:55:13. > :55:15.see any justification at all why houses, we are not talking about

:55:16. > :55:19.flats here, we talking about houses, which are built on their own piece

:55:20. > :55:24.of land that the land shouldn't be sold with the house on a freehold

:55:25. > :55:27.basis. I can't see any justification apart from either the house-builder

:55:28. > :55:31.or an investment company thinking they can make profit at the house

:55:32. > :55:35.owner's expense. I think the Government is right to talk about

:55:36. > :55:39.ending this practise for the future, but just listening there to the

:55:40. > :55:44.conversation, it's also right that we have to think what we can do to

:55:45. > :55:48.help those people who are in the situation where they can be

:55:49. > :55:54.exploited with unreasonable increases in leasehold charges in

:55:55. > :55:57.the future. Clive and Lisa are talking about two different things.

:55:58. > :56:04.Ours is a very fair and proportionate approach. I would

:56:05. > :56:06.disagree with homeowners having their tenancy, effectively their

:56:07. > :56:10.tenancy put in jeopardy. It shouldn't be put in jeopardy. If you

:56:11. > :56:17.worked to the models that I explained our members work. 249 year

:56:18. > :56:20.lease, ?100 every ten years. It would, sorry every 30 years it would

:56:21. > :56:26.increase. Actually, if you look at inflation and you can also buy the

:56:27. > :56:29.freehold and it is called freehold reversion. But the point is people

:56:30. > :56:35.think they are buying the freehold when they buy the house? I cannot

:56:36. > :56:41.speak for the model of this organisation. Can I just say this

:56:42. > :56:44.issue isn't about how much you pay in a year for ground rent? This is

:56:45. > :56:48.about the extra permission fees that they add on. Permission to build an

:56:49. > :56:51.extension or a conservatory that doesn't need planning per murks,

:56:52. > :56:57.gone up to ?2600. That is ridiculous. That's permission to do

:56:58. > :57:03.nothing, but just to say yes. Clive Betts, are you going to push in this

:57:04. > :57:07.consultation for retrospective help for people like Lisa and Katie? We

:57:08. > :57:11.have got to. Katie right at the beginning of this piece put her

:57:12. > :57:15.finger on it, when she said it is OK for the future and we ought to act

:57:16. > :57:17.for the future for every so-called reasonable leasehold arrangement

:57:18. > :57:22.others can bring in unreasonable ones. Let's stop the whole practise

:57:23. > :57:26.because it is not necessary. There is no justification. But we have the

:57:27. > :57:29.people who are caught in the unreasonable arrangements which they

:57:30. > :57:33.have already signed up to when investment companies can come in and

:57:34. > :57:37.then as Katie just explained not merely the ground rent increases,

:57:38. > :57:42.but you want to put a small extension on your house, a loft

:57:43. > :57:46.conversion, you pay an arm and a leg for T that's not fair. I'm going to

:57:47. > :57:51.pause you there. I want to bring viewers this news. It is to do with

:57:52. > :57:59.an incident in Shaw in Oldham. Police are continuing to respond to

:58:00. > :58:03.an on going incident at a property on Pemberton way. Police responded

:58:04. > :58:06.to reports that a man had locked himself inside. The police are

:58:07. > :58:10.continuing to engage with the man and attempt to bring the situation

:58:11. > :58:12.to a safe resolution. More on BBC News throughout the

:58:13. > :58:21.morning. Thank you very much for your company

:58:22. > :58:23.today. We're back tomorrow at 9am. Have a good day.