26/07/2017

:00:07. > :00:13.Our top story today: This programme has seen evidence that Kensington

:00:14. > :00:15.and Chelsea Council was warned as early as 2010 that building

:00:16. > :00:18.a new school at the base of Grenfell Tower could block access

:00:19. > :00:26.to fire trucks and other emergency vehicles.

:00:27. > :00:29.The fire brigades union has told us that some fire engines had huge

:00:30. > :00:31.difficulties getting to the tower that night.

:00:32. > :00:33.It now wants those access problems looked at as part

:00:34. > :00:41.Also on the programme: Is the culture of abuse towards MPs

:00:42. > :00:44.MPs from all parties have been telling us about the kind

:00:45. > :00:49.of intimidating and bullying messages they receive.

:00:50. > :00:51.Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

:00:52. > :01:05.Eat EXPLETIVE in hell, you Tory witch.

:01:06. > :01:07.Get out of my country, you ugly, racist EXPLETIVE!

:01:08. > :01:17.We'll ask whether this kind of regular abuse MPs receive

:01:18. > :01:23.will end up driving some of them out of politics altogether.

:01:24. > :01:26.Plus, up to 60 reports of murder and thoughts of killing associated

:01:27. > :01:28.with antidepressants have been received by the UK

:01:29. > :01:32.medicines regulator in the last three decades.

:01:33. > :01:35.I believe if he hadn't taken the Sertraline he wouldn't

:01:36. > :01:56.Throughout the programme, we'll bring you the latest breaking

:01:57. > :02:00.A little later, we'll hear claims that sperm is declining at such

:02:01. > :02:04.a dramatic rate the human species could eventually become extinct.

:02:05. > :02:12.Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

:02:13. > :02:18.And if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

:02:19. > :02:20.Our top story today: New diesel and petrol cars

:02:21. > :02:23.are to be banned from 2040, as part of efforts to

:02:24. > :02:26.The move will be announced by the Government this morning,

:02:27. > :02:29.heralding a shift to all-electric vehicles, which now account for only

:02:30. > :02:33.There'll also be a fund of ?255 million to help local

:02:34. > :02:36.councils speed up efforts to combat emissions from diesel vehicles.

:02:37. > :02:49.ARCHIVE: He drives up in a 1908 Model T.

:02:50. > :02:52.We've come a long way in terms of design, but for 100 years we've

:02:53. > :02:55.been relying on vehicles with an internal combustion engine

:02:56. > :03:02.burning petrol or diesel, but is that about to change?

:03:03. > :03:07.Several major car-makers including BMW, Volkswagen and Volvo have

:03:08. > :03:16.already announced ambitious plans for electric cars, seen as a key way

:03:17. > :03:18.of tackling air pollution, and now the Government

:03:19. > :03:23.of petrol and diesel engines in the UK with a ban on sales by 2040.

:03:24. > :03:26.It's part of a ?3 billion air quality strategy that also includes

:03:27. > :03:30.?255 million to help local authorities cut pollution.

:03:31. > :03:33.It will mean a ban on sales and production of new petrol

:03:34. > :03:37.or diesel vehicles in the UK as well as a consultation

:03:38. > :03:42.The move follows a similar pledge earlier this month

:03:43. > :03:45.by President Macron of France where the ban will also

:03:46. > :03:56.Campaigners are likely to complain that the Government hasn't gone far

:03:57. > :03:58.enough or fast enough, while Labour is saying

:03:59. > :04:02.are living in areas with illegal levels of air pollution and action

:04:03. > :04:07.is needed now and not in 23 years time.

:04:08. > :04:10.The Environment Minister, Michael Gove, speaking on the Today

:04:11. > :04:13.programme, was asked whether more was needed to be done to tackle

:04:14. > :04:24.I think it's important that we all gear up for a significant change,

:04:25. > :04:27.which deals not just with the problems to health caused by

:04:28. > :04:32.emissions but the broader problems caused in terms of accelerating

:04:33. > :04:36.climate change. But I do accept the premise, which is that we also need

:04:37. > :04:40.to take action now to deal with some specific health concerns which are

:04:41. > :04:42.raised by particular types of emission, and which are

:04:43. > :04:44.predominantly but not exclusively from diesel cars and other diesel

:04:45. > :04:45.vehicles. Michael Gove, the environment

:04:46. > :04:46.Secretary. Ben Brown is in the BBC

:04:47. > :04:49.Newsroom with a summary The High Court judge overseeing

:04:50. > :04:54.the case of the terminally ill baby Charlie Gard will decide today

:04:55. > :04:56.whether the child's parents can Doctors at Great Ormond

:04:57. > :04:59.Street Hospital say that, in the interest of his care,

:05:00. > :05:03.he should stay where he is or be His parents have appealed

:05:04. > :05:06.for a specialist doctor to come forward so he can spend his final

:05:07. > :05:17.hours at home. The judge leading the inquiry

:05:18. > :05:19.into the Grenfell Tower fire has told survivors he would "get

:05:20. > :05:22.to the bottom" of the tragedy Shouting broke out as residents

:05:23. > :05:26.expressed their anger ahead of the final consultation

:05:27. > :05:27.on what the investigation We're not here to fight

:05:28. > :05:35.each other, brother. And more than once, the inquiry

:05:36. > :05:38.chair, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, We are not going to get anywhere

:05:39. > :05:45.if you all talk at once. Well, this meeting has broken up now

:05:46. > :05:48.after almost three hours of talking. It has been fractious

:05:49. > :05:53.at times, emotional too. I think what the inquiry panel can't

:05:54. > :05:56.have failed to take away is the frustration and anger that

:05:57. > :05:59.still exists here and the fact that some people don't have faith

:06:00. > :06:01.in their ability to do You know, quite honestly,

:06:02. > :06:10.I don't know why we have an inquiry that the so-called chair,

:06:11. > :06:14.who's a judge, cannot compel We need to see that they

:06:15. > :06:20.are representative, that they are going to understand

:06:21. > :06:24.the pain, the humanitarian issues, because they're all very

:06:25. > :06:27.relevant in this as well. The main reason people

:06:28. > :06:29.are angry is because they're Now whether that was the right forum

:06:30. > :06:35.to get those answers is questionable, but the fact

:06:36. > :06:38.is that people are There is a lot of emotion

:06:39. > :06:42.and I entirely understand We're going to continue to work

:06:43. > :06:47.with them and hope that by careful preparation and discussion,

:06:48. > :06:49.and so on, we can make them realise that we can give them

:06:50. > :06:51.justice by finding out Today, there's another meeting,

:06:52. > :06:57.when residents can question But six weeks after this fire,

:06:58. > :07:04.there's little sign of things Two men have been targeted

:07:05. > :07:12.in a suspected acid The Met Police said the men,

:07:13. > :07:16.thought to be in their late teens, flagged down officers

:07:17. > :07:18.in Bethnal Green early Police said it was still not known

:07:19. > :07:24.what liquid was thrown at them. MPs from all parties say

:07:25. > :07:32.they experience regular trolling They say they're targeted

:07:33. > :07:40.for their sexuality, religious beliefs and social

:07:41. > :07:44.background by people who were intent on "driving them out

:07:45. > :07:47.of politics altogether". An inquiry into the issue

:07:48. > :07:50.was announced by the standards watchdog earlier in July,

:07:51. > :07:52.and began its We'll be speaking to some MPs

:07:53. > :07:55.about their experiences The US House of Representatives has

:07:56. > :08:01.voted to impose fresh sanctions on Russia,

:08:02. > :08:04.despite President Donald Trump Senior officials will be targeted

:08:05. > :08:15.in retaliation for alleged Russian interference in the 2016

:08:16. > :08:16.American election. The measures will also

:08:17. > :08:18.see fresh sanctions against North Korea and Iran over

:08:19. > :08:22.ballistic missile tests. The Supreme Court is to rule

:08:23. > :08:25.on a challenge to the increase The legal battle is a challenge

:08:26. > :08:32.to the fees brought in June 2013 in tribunals, which range

:08:33. > :08:35.from ?390 to ?1600. The cost of the fees has resulted

:08:36. > :08:39.in a huge reduction of cases. The Supreme Court is expected

:08:40. > :08:41.to make their judgement Humans could become extinct if sperm

:08:42. > :08:52.counts in men continue to fall at current rates,

:08:53. > :08:54.a doctor has warned. Researchers assessing the results

:08:55. > :08:56.of nearly 200 studies say sperm counts among men from North America,

:08:57. > :08:59.Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, seem to have halved

:09:00. > :09:01.in less than 40 years. They point to exposure to chemicals

:09:02. > :09:19.as a possible cause. At least 10,000 people, including

:09:20. > :09:23.British holiday-makers, were moved to safety in the south of France

:09:24. > :09:30.during the night to escape rapidly spreading fires. A new blaze has

:09:31. > :09:36.broken out West of St Tropez. A number of campsites on the coast

:09:37. > :09:40.have been evacuated. Princess Diana's brother says he was

:09:41. > :09:44.lied to about Prince William and Prince Harry wanting to walk behind

:09:45. > :09:48.their mother's coffin. In an interview with the Today programme,

:09:49. > :09:54.he said it was a bizarre and cruel thing for the Princes to do. The

:09:55. > :10:00.funeral procession was, he said, the most horrifying half an hour of his

:10:01. > :10:01.life. He was speaking as the 20th anniversary of her death approaches

:10:02. > :10:02.in August. The number of people over 90

:10:03. > :10:05.who hold a driving license in Great Britain has topped 100,000

:10:06. > :10:07.for the first time. That's according to data

:10:08. > :10:09.revealed by the DVLA. Currently drivers aged 70 and over

:10:10. > :10:11.are required to fill in a self-assessment form

:10:12. > :10:13.every three years. They must declare that

:10:14. > :10:15.their eyesight meets the minimum standard,

:10:16. > :10:17.but some think the law should be changed and they

:10:18. > :10:49.should be re-tested. On abuse RMP is, one viewer says:

:10:50. > :10:53.These people should be punished and should be behind bars. Anthony says:

:10:54. > :10:59.We have to remember that MPs are human, sort of! And another viewer

:11:00. > :11:05.says: They need to get over themselves. Paul says, on Briton

:11:06. > :11:15.they might consider not screaming at each other like three-year-olds

:11:16. > :11:16.during PMQs. Hughes is with us with this poor, and Adam Peaty is on

:11:17. > :11:18.fire! Well, he's an incredible athlete -

:11:19. > :11:21.already, at the age of 22, we are talking about Adam Peaty

:11:22. > :11:24.as if he could well become Britain's He's already won a gold medal

:11:25. > :11:28.at the World Aquatics Championships Yesterday morning we mentioned

:11:29. > :11:32.a new world record in the 50 metres breastroke heats

:11:33. > :11:33.and last night he only Another world record

:11:34. > :11:37.in his semifinal last night, and with it, the defending champion

:11:38. > :11:40.became the first person to go If he wins this afternoon's final,

:11:41. > :11:44.he'll repeat his double world title And you wouldn't bet

:11:45. > :11:47.against him doing it, especially as yesterday he said

:11:48. > :11:54.he was actually lacking in energy. This morning I went 26.1

:11:55. > :12:01.and I thought it was going to be Coming out there tonight I was a bit

:12:02. > :12:05.down because it's been such an emotional few days but I thought,

:12:06. > :12:09.right, get up for it and do what I do and Mel said don't waste

:12:10. > :12:12.an opportunity because you don't know when is going to be your last

:12:13. > :12:15.so I just went out and did And that is the fourth time he's

:12:16. > :12:20.broken the world record for the 50 metres breast stroke,

:12:21. > :12:23.so fingers crossed things go perfectly for him in Budapest

:12:24. > :12:33.a little later on. It is not just about medals, he is

:12:34. > :12:41.now trying to take the sport as far as he can.

:12:42. > :12:47.Football transfer fees have been huge for years and they are

:12:48. > :12:48.continuing to go up what? Yes, everyone is hoping to improve their

:12:49. > :12:55.team, but at what cost? The figures being spoken

:12:56. > :12:57.about for transfers this We've seen Manchester United spend

:12:58. > :13:01.?75 million for striker Manchester City have

:13:02. > :13:03.spent over ?200 million already this summer,

:13:04. > :13:05.including 45 million on England defender Kyle Walker from Spurs,

:13:06. > :13:08.and it's already become acceptable it seems, to see prices of 50,

:13:09. > :13:11.60 or 70 million routinely discussed when it comes

:13:12. > :13:12.to Premier League football. According Tottenham's chariman,

:13:13. > :13:20.Daniel Levy, it just isn't. He's well known for his smart

:13:21. > :13:23.business sense and he says the overspending of some

:13:24. > :13:25.clubs will "eventually Last summer, Jose Mourinho made

:13:26. > :13:29.the world record transfer to bring Paul Pogba to Old Trafford

:13:30. > :13:32.for ?89 million. Despite his level of spending,

:13:33. > :13:47.he takes a similar view to Levy. We spent a lot of money on the

:13:48. > :13:51.striker, and if we don't do that, we have no striker. That is obvious

:13:52. > :13:55.nowadays, especially for the strikers, the amount of money is

:13:56. > :14:00.amazing. Every club is getting players, investing a lot. Some

:14:01. > :14:04.clubs, obviously, they are paying too much, and by doing that, they

:14:05. > :14:07.create a very strange and out-of-control market, but this is a

:14:08. > :14:09.reality now. And Mourinho went on to say

:14:10. > :14:11.it was the smaller clubs who faced the real problem,

:14:12. > :14:13.rather than the likes of Manchester United who could find

:14:14. > :14:16.themselves in financial trouble. For now at least, it seems that

:14:17. > :14:26.trend is set to continue. More from Hugh throughout the

:14:27. > :14:31.morning. Is our political culture getting

:14:32. > :14:34.steadily more and more abusive? MPs from all parties say

:14:35. > :14:36.they experience regular trolling They say they're targeted

:14:37. > :14:38.for their sexuality, religious beliefs and social

:14:39. > :14:41.background by people who were intent on "driving them out

:14:42. > :14:44.of politics altogether". An inquiry into the issue

:14:45. > :14:47.was announced by the standards watchdog earlier in July,

:14:48. > :14:49.and began its This programme has been speaking

:14:50. > :14:54.to MPs about their experiences of campaigning and holding office,

:14:55. > :14:57.to get a sense of how Caroline Ansell is as bad

:14:58. > :15:05.as Isis, and Hitler. Get out of my country,

:15:06. > :15:23.you ugly, racist...! Want to see your head

:15:24. > :15:30.swinging from Tower Bridge. Simon Hart, you're a...,

:15:31. > :15:33.go get in the bin, I hope You...Muslim, fascist...,

:15:34. > :15:38.we voted Brexit, and Article 50 Over the past few years,

:15:39. > :15:48.the UK's been caught up Every week seems to bring

:15:49. > :16:01.a new twist in the plot of a sometimes thrilling,

:16:02. > :16:03.sometimes chaotic political drama. But here at Westminster,

:16:04. > :16:06.a lot of people are afraid that in the recent turbulence,

:16:07. > :16:08.the very nature of our political conversation may have

:16:09. > :16:10.changed for the worse. This was the most abusive

:16:11. > :16:12.and vindictive election campaign most of us have ever

:16:13. > :16:16.been involved with. MPs have told this programme

:16:17. > :16:20.about an emerging culture of abuse It should never be part of the job

:16:21. > :16:32.to receive this level of abuse. I've had death threats,

:16:33. > :16:34.I've had people tweeting that I should be hung,

:16:35. > :16:36.I've had rape threats, described as a pathetic,

:16:37. > :16:44.useless, fat, black... And, as well as the interviews

:16:45. > :16:47.you'll see in this film, we've spoken to a lot of MPs

:16:48. > :16:49.off the record. Almost all of them told us

:16:50. > :16:51.that they'd received at least some abuse online,

:16:52. > :16:53.ranging from the quite trivial But the question is how

:16:54. > :16:57.serious is this problem? Is what we're seeing just

:16:58. > :16:59.predictable part of passionate debate in fractious times,

:17:00. > :17:02.or is it something new and different that could even represent a threat

:17:03. > :17:05.to the very fabric of our democracy? There's an awful lot at stake

:17:06. > :17:07.here in the maintenance This is about sweeping opposition

:17:08. > :17:17.out of politics altogether. And the day that we've come to,

:17:18. > :17:20.you know, that we've don't feel that they can say

:17:21. > :17:24.what they think, that's actually Conservative MP Simon Hart has

:17:25. > :17:27.been trying to shine a light on this problem,

:17:28. > :17:30.and he, at least, is convinced that in the last couple of years, things

:17:31. > :17:33.have become dramatically worse. Because I've been involved

:17:34. > :17:35.in elections of one sort or another for ten or 15 years,

:17:36. > :17:38.and this one was very different. Different where I live, different

:17:39. > :17:41.for colleagues all over the UK, and a real difference

:17:42. > :17:43.between 2015 and 2017. This was not an ordinary election,

:17:44. > :17:48.it was vitriolic, dishonest, unpleasant, not for politicians

:17:49. > :17:51.necessarily, we're meant to be used to that kind of thing,

:17:52. > :17:55.but for everybody around us. To your mind, is this something that

:17:56. > :17:58.affects politicians on the right of politics more than those

:17:59. > :18:10.on the left, or is it From my own personal experiences,

:18:11. > :18:14.and the ones I was picking up from colleagues, I think

:18:15. > :18:16.there is a more active, there is more evidence of activity

:18:17. > :18:19.in this election orchestrated from the left than from the right,

:18:20. > :18:22.but I emphasise it was not And so do you think, then,

:18:23. > :18:26.there's been a change in the character of left-wing

:18:27. > :18:28.activism in the last few years that you would say is responsible

:18:29. > :18:31.for the rise in this Well, that would be how it appears

:18:32. > :18:35.to me, yes, and, you know, one of my bugbears in all of this

:18:36. > :18:38.too is political leadership, and that's left and right, but also

:18:39. > :18:44.leadership of political movements. Organisations like Momentum,

:18:45. > :18:46.or like the trade unions, although they occasionally say

:18:47. > :18:51.that they condemn these activities, there isn't a lot of evidence

:18:52. > :18:54.that they really mean One of the big differences

:18:55. > :18:58.between Conservative and Labour, I observe, is that my party sees

:18:59. > :19:02.Labour as the opposition. Isn't it right to say that

:19:03. > :19:10.Jeremy Corbyn in particular has consistently condemned any kind

:19:11. > :19:12.of abusive or personalised attacks Well, I would say yes, he has,

:19:13. > :19:17.he is on the record as saying this is not how he wishes to,

:19:18. > :19:23.you know, what he wishes My question, though,

:19:24. > :19:26.is a bit more than that, it's OK, what have you done,

:19:27. > :19:28.Jeremy, apart from sending out the odd tweet, what have

:19:29. > :19:31.you done to stop this? Has there been a single member

:19:32. > :19:34.of the Labour Party or Momentum or trade unions who's actually been

:19:35. > :19:38.reprimanded, sanctioned, kicked out for this kind of thing,

:19:39. > :19:43.where it's been provable? Now, the fact is there has been no

:19:44. > :19:50.answer to that question, so actually if they want to be

:19:51. > :19:53.serious about this, they've got to do more than just

:19:54. > :19:56.pay lip service to it. They've got to do

:19:57. > :20:00.something about it. We don't want to stifle free speech,

:20:01. > :20:04.we don't want to stifle debate, we actually want to bring this back

:20:05. > :20:07.to an acceptable level, which means people can

:20:08. > :20:08.challenge us properly... It's clear Simon Hart,

:20:09. > :20:10.like other Conservative MPs we've spoken to,

:20:11. > :20:12.holds left-wing activists primarily responsible for the recent rise

:20:13. > :20:14.in abusive language directed But on the other end

:20:15. > :20:17.of the political spectrum, Labour's Cat Smith, a member

:20:18. > :20:19.of the Shadow Cabinet, and a close ally of Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:20. > :20:24.has quite a different story to tell. The abuse that I receive

:20:25. > :20:26.personally tends to come Sometimes they're organised,

:20:27. > :20:31.sometimes they're not. The organised groups tend to be

:20:32. > :20:33.groups like Britain First, the EDL, and Combat 18,

:20:34. > :20:38.who are very threatening. And you mention that women tend

:20:39. > :20:41.to get it worse than men, do you think that there

:20:42. > :20:44.is a misogynistic element to a lot of the abuse of tweets

:20:45. > :20:48.and things that you get? There's absolutely no doubt that

:20:49. > :20:51.women MPs are receiving far more abuse than their male counterparts,

:20:52. > :20:57.and of the women MPs, I'd say they're MPs who are black,

:20:58. > :21:00.ethnic minority or Jewish tend to get far more abuse

:21:01. > :21:04.than white women MPs, and I'm very aware that by doing

:21:05. > :21:07.this interview I'm probably lining up quite a few trolls to come

:21:08. > :21:10.and greet me on social media over Really, so you have a sense that

:21:11. > :21:19.just from doing this and speaking out about this kind of abuse,

:21:20. > :21:21.you're likely to attract Absolutely, I don't doubt that women

:21:22. > :21:25.MPs who then start to speak out about their abuse suddenly become

:21:26. > :21:28.a target for more trolls, but the point is that some

:21:29. > :21:31.of us have to speak out. Cat agrees with Simon Hart

:21:32. > :21:35.that the 2017 campaign But she has a very different idea

:21:36. > :21:40.of who was responsible. What we saw from the Conservative

:21:41. > :21:43.Party during the election was the singling out of,

:21:44. > :21:46.let's be honest, Diane Abbott, and some of the very personal

:21:47. > :21:52.attacks I think bordered on the racist during

:21:53. > :21:57.the Conservative Party's official campaign, and this is in line

:21:58. > :22:00.with what happened in the London mayoral election,

:22:01. > :22:03.where Zac Goldsmith's official campaign, I think, was bordering

:22:04. > :22:09.on the racist against Sadiq Khan. So are you saying that

:22:10. > :22:13.the Conservative Party has officially sanctioned racist

:22:14. > :22:18.campaigning against people I think when the Conservative Party

:22:19. > :22:22.campaign, official campaign, is using the wolf whistle politics

:22:23. > :22:25.that they did use, it almost gives permission for people

:22:26. > :22:31.who are racists online to take that a step further and use the kind

:22:32. > :22:34.of threatening language which we've seen directed at Sadiq Khan

:22:35. > :22:37.and Diane Abbott. Conservative Caroline Ansell

:22:38. > :22:40.lost her seat in the ultra-marginal constituency of Eastbourne,

:22:41. > :22:43.after a hard-fought campaign She is particularly worried that

:22:44. > :22:48.certain political perspectives are being suffocated by abusive

:22:49. > :23:04.and threatening language online. Give us a sense of how frequently

:23:05. > :23:07.you would receive comments online, or messages that you would consider

:23:08. > :23:09.to be abusive. You know, you post a comment

:23:10. > :23:13.and then it can create a feeding frenzy of people who seem to be just

:23:14. > :23:17.waiting for you to have the temerity to talk about a success that you've

:23:18. > :23:19.managed to come through, or someone that you've championed,

:23:20. > :23:24.just that sort of instant backlash. And that can be all the way

:23:25. > :23:27.through from just trying to sort of demoralise or diminish

:23:28. > :23:31.or discredit, all the way through to, you know,

:23:32. > :23:33.very hostile comments And as a campaigning politician

:23:34. > :23:38.on the right of politics, do you ever feel hesitant to express

:23:39. > :23:41.opinions online, because of a fear I guess I have had a moment,

:23:42. > :23:48.if you moments where I've, you know, paused over posts,

:23:49. > :23:50.because I know what But, actually, the experience I've

:23:51. > :23:54.had has made me more determined to step out,

:23:55. > :23:59.more determined to speak up, and I think that's, you know,

:24:00. > :24:04.really and truly the only forward. You cannot be dismayed by it,

:24:05. > :24:08.you need to fight them for something that's really important,

:24:09. > :24:11.and that's freedom of speech. But Caroline has experience

:24:12. > :24:13.of something more serious One man used Facebook

:24:14. > :24:19.to issue a sinister threat. Yeah, a local man, essentially

:24:20. > :24:23.he said he'd kill me. He said he knew where I lived,

:24:24. > :24:26.he said he had a knife, and he was very angry about a vote

:24:27. > :24:30.in parliament, and if I persisted, He was arrested and tried and

:24:31. > :24:37.convicted, and spent time in prison. Do you think there's something

:24:38. > :24:40.about the tone of political debate at the moment that made that guy

:24:41. > :24:43.think it was somehow OK to issue The man was subsequently released,

:24:44. > :24:51.but on the day of our interview, Caroline said that the same man

:24:52. > :24:54.was once again posting abusive Back at Westminster,

:24:55. > :25:00.Labour MP Rupa Huq told us about an incident at the 2015

:25:01. > :25:03.election where campaigning got physical, but she also explained how

:25:04. > :25:06.certain hot button issues can Abortion, that kind of thing,

:25:07. > :25:11.is one of them, that it I mean, it seems a long way

:25:12. > :25:18.from Ealing and Acton Jewish MPs also have been

:25:19. > :25:25.subject to awful abuse, and I think, you know,

:25:26. > :25:27.probably Muslim women Rupa rejects any suggestion

:25:28. > :25:35.that the rise in the abuse is exclusively down to activists

:25:36. > :25:37.on the left. I mean, I think that this is a sort

:25:38. > :25:41.of smear campaign against us, really, because, you know,

:25:42. > :25:46.the things on social media, I think any kid going to look

:25:47. > :25:50.at a pop video on YouTube would have seen stuff about Jeremy Corbyn

:25:51. > :25:52.being a terrorist sympathiser, all these things they were trying

:25:53. > :25:56.to pin on him, which was not true. The government has recently asked

:25:57. > :25:58.the Committee for Standards in Public Life to interrogate this

:25:59. > :26:01.issue, and to make recommendations We have a mood surrounding a normal

:26:02. > :26:10.operation of Parliamentary democracy, which is not the normal

:26:11. > :26:15.British mood. There are different interpretations,

:26:16. > :26:25.or what the balance is, or who is suffering the most,

:26:26. > :26:28.and so on, but the really interesting thing is across

:26:29. > :26:29.the parties in Westminster, nobody is actually saying this

:26:30. > :26:32.is an imaginary, got up thing. It's slightly reminds me,

:26:33. > :26:34.I'm old enough to remember the period before the Troubles

:26:35. > :26:37.began, and actually the tone of some of those things

:26:38. > :26:39.is actually quite similar, eerily significant to some

:26:40. > :26:41.of the things that we've been talking about in the press

:26:42. > :26:44.in recent weeks. So you've said that we might be

:26:45. > :26:46.approaching a tipping Can you say a bit about

:26:47. > :26:51.what you meant by that? Well, I mean, when I talk

:26:52. > :26:53.about a tipping point, I mean that it becomes commonplace,

:26:54. > :27:01.and we accept that this, I hope, temporary spike upwards in recent

:27:02. > :27:03.times of abuse and intimidatory rhetoric and practice towards people

:27:04. > :27:05.seeking public office, that we come to accept this

:27:06. > :27:08.as the norm. And one of the issues

:27:09. > :27:13.here is the possibility that the volume of abuse is not

:27:14. > :27:15.neutral in its effects, that it is actually tending

:27:16. > :27:18.to intimidate certain types of people and reduce

:27:19. > :27:23.diversity in our public life. But the thing I think

:27:24. > :27:25.above all I want to say is that we do accept that

:27:26. > :27:28.a characteristic of British political debate is its vigour,

:27:29. > :27:32.and it's sometimes very strident. Strident and vigorous political

:27:33. > :27:35.debate is not something We have a strong understanding

:27:36. > :27:41.of the fact that the vitality of the British political debate

:27:42. > :27:43.is something that we When you discuss this issue

:27:44. > :27:49.with politicians on the right, it usually isn't long before

:27:50. > :27:51.the left-wing campaign group I think across politics there has

:27:52. > :27:59.been a rise in abusive language, and it's a serious issue,

:28:00. > :28:02.and I think as an organisation, Momentum sees that all political

:28:03. > :28:05.organisations need to work together When we talk to politicians

:28:06. > :28:09.on the right, particularly Conservative MPs, very often

:28:10. > :28:12.when they're talking about abusive language being used online,

:28:13. > :28:16.they mention Momentum. Why do you think it

:28:17. > :28:19.is that they do that? I mean, they may mention it,

:28:20. > :28:22.but none of these politicians have made any complaints to us

:28:23. > :28:25.as an organisation, they haven't We have a very, very

:28:26. > :28:29.clear code of ethics, which sets out the rules

:28:30. > :28:32.for all Momentum members, and they sign that when they become

:28:33. > :28:36.members, and if any of them break that, we have procedures

:28:37. > :28:38.to deal with that. So, you know, if there

:28:39. > :28:40.is evidence of Momentum members being involved in such activity,

:28:41. > :28:44.we take that very seriously. And what action do you take

:28:45. > :28:47.when it's proven to be the case that a Momentum member has engaged

:28:48. > :28:50.in abusive language online? We have very, very,

:28:51. > :28:52.very few cases of this, but we have a procedure we follow

:28:53. > :28:55.to ensure that, if a member does that, then they will be suspended

:28:56. > :29:00.or expelled from the organisation. It's hard to know for sure

:29:01. > :29:02.what's going on here. One recent study found that fully

:29:03. > :29:07.50% of all abusive tweets directed at politicians were targeted

:29:08. > :29:10.at a small group of very high profile individuals,

:29:11. > :29:12.with Jeremy Corbyn himself receiving The same study also found that male

:29:13. > :29:20.Conservatives were the group most likely to receive abusive tweets,

:29:21. > :29:24.although, importantly, those with a high profile

:29:25. > :29:29.attract more abuse, and there are significantly

:29:30. > :29:30.more high-profile men in politics than women,

:29:31. > :29:32.so we shouldn't read Most people we've spoken

:29:33. > :29:38.to ultimately acknowledge that this is a problem that affects all parts

:29:39. > :29:41.of the political spectrum. But the choice now facing our

:29:42. > :29:44.elected representatives is whether they allow this to become

:29:45. > :29:48.yet another party political squabble, or whether in very divided

:29:49. > :29:51.times, enough unity can be found All main political parties say

:29:52. > :30:01.there is no place for intimidation, Later in the programme,

:30:02. > :30:08.we'll speak to some newly elected MPs about their experiences over

:30:09. > :30:29.the last month. Is one viewer says: I feel despised

:30:30. > :30:40.and hated by MPs. Fiona: Threats and violence have no place. Another

:30:41. > :30:44.viewer says: The if you don't believe me then you are an enemy

:30:45. > :30:49.type of politics is fuelling it. John says: It is hard to empathise

:30:50. > :30:54.or offer sympathy to MPs when they are renowned for being a litres, and

:30:55. > :31:08.once elected, quietly ignoring the will of the people.

:31:09. > :31:19.Later, we will talk to the newly elected MPs about their experiences.

:31:20. > :31:24.Kensington and Chelsea town were warned in 2010 that is building a

:31:25. > :31:32.school next to the tower could block access for fire service vehicles.

:31:33. > :31:39.And: Reports that an antidepressant could have played a role in one of

:31:40. > :31:43.America's worst shootings. Now, the news headlines with Ben.

:31:44. > :31:47.New diesel and petrol cars are to be banned from 2040, as part of efforts

:31:48. > :31:50.The move will be announced by the Government this morning,

:31:51. > :31:53.heralding a shift to all-electric vehicles, which now account for only

:31:54. > :31:58.There'll also be a fund of ?255 million to help local

:31:59. > :32:00.councils speed up efforts to combat emissions from diesel vehicles.

:32:01. > :32:02.Environment Secretary Michael Gove said the change is needed

:32:03. > :32:18.We have to get rid of petrol and diesel cars from the roads to make

:32:19. > :32:23.sure that we deal not only with their health problems that air

:32:24. > :32:31.pollution causes, but to meet climate change targets. Volvo and

:32:32. > :32:33.Mini are moving in this way. It is critically important that we provide

:32:34. > :32:36.the encouragement from Government to help the car industry do the right

:32:37. > :32:40.The High Court judge overseeing the case of the terminally ill baby

:32:41. > :32:42.Charlie Gard will decide today whether the child's parents can

:32:43. > :32:45.Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital say that,

:32:46. > :32:49.in the interest of his care, he should stay where he is or be

:32:50. > :32:52.His parents have appealed for a specialist doctor to come

:32:53. > :32:56.forward so he can spend his final hours at home.

:32:57. > :32:59.The judge leading the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has

:33:00. > :33:01.told survivors he would "get to the bottom" of the tragedy

:33:02. > :33:04.during a second public meeting Shouting broke out as residents

:33:05. > :33:06.expressed their anger ahead of the final consultation on what

:33:07. > :33:15.Also this programme has learned that Kensington and Chelsea Council

:33:16. > :33:18.were warned as early as 2010 that a new secondary school at the base

:33:19. > :33:32.of the Tower could block access to emergency vehicles.

:33:33. > :33:41.At least 10,000 people, including British holiday-makers, were moved

:33:42. > :33:45.to save 30 -- moved to safety last night to escape rapidly spreading

:33:46. > :33:55.forest fires. The fires have broken up west of St Tropez, and campsites

:33:56. > :34:01.have been evacuated. Princess Diana's brother has said he was lied

:34:02. > :34:05.to about Prince William and Prince Harry saying they wanted to walk

:34:06. > :34:09.behind their mother's coffin. The funeral procession, he said, was the

:34:10. > :34:13.most horrifying half an hour of his life. He was speaking as the 20th

:34:14. > :34:15.anniversary of her death approaches in August.

:34:16. > :34:19.That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00.

:34:20. > :34:26.Some more messages from you about the kind of abuse that politicians

:34:27. > :34:31.received. This one says: The rise in abuse at the tax goes hand-in-hand

:34:32. > :34:35.with unfulfilled expectations and a great sense of entitlement.

:34:36. > :34:41.Politicians need to realise that things are as they are, so get a

:34:42. > :34:45.grip on tempers and calm down. Jane says: I would like to point out it

:34:46. > :34:53.is not just MPs who suffer abuse. Their staff usually pick up the

:34:54. > :34:58.messages and have to deal with the often vile comments. Ian says: I

:34:59. > :35:05.don't condone any racist nonviolent comments against anyone, but the

:35:06. > :35:13.recent issue about MPs' pay causes legitimate concerns about their

:35:14. > :35:15.professionalism. -- racist and violent.

:35:16. > :35:19.Adam Peaty continues to push the boundaries in a swimming pool.

:35:20. > :35:22.The Olympic champion beat his own world record in the

:35:23. > :35:24.50-metre breaststroke twice in one day, breaking the 26-second

:35:25. > :35:33.He goes in the final today looking to set an even faster time.

:35:34. > :35:35.Former Olympic long jump champion Greg Rutherford says he's devastated

:35:36. > :35:37.that he'll miss next week's World Championships in London

:35:38. > :35:43.There's been more criticism of the Rugby Football Union's

:35:44. > :35:46.decision not to renew the contracts for all of England's

:35:47. > :35:50.The Shadow Sports Minister, Dr Rosena Allin-Khan,

:35:51. > :35:55.executive Ian Ritchie expressing her "deep concern".

:35:56. > :35:57.And Chelsea's record signing Alvaro Morata made his debut

:35:58. > :36:02.He set up this goal, but couldn't stop them going down

:36:03. > :36:10.3-2 in a preseason match against Bayern Munich.

:36:11. > :36:18.That is all the sport for now. I will be back just after 10am.

:36:19. > :36:26.The economy grew by 0.3% during the second quarter of this year,

:36:27. > :36:29.according to the office for National statistics. That just in.

:36:30. > :36:31.Kensington and Chelsea Council was warned as early as 2010 that

:36:32. > :36:34.building a new school at the base of Grenfell Tower could block

:36:35. > :36:36.access to fire trucks and other emergency vehicles.

:36:37. > :36:38.That's according to documents seen exclusively by this programme.

:36:39. > :36:40.Fire fighters have said that during the blaze "access

:36:41. > :36:42.was an issue" with "huge difficulties" getting

:36:43. > :36:48.Our reporter Jim Reed has this story.

:36:49. > :37:04.This goes back almost a decade, to 2008, and plans to build this school

:37:05. > :37:11.here. This is Kensington Academy, right at the foot of Grenfell Tower

:37:12. > :37:16.itself. It has a capacity of 1000. We want to show you satellite photos

:37:17. > :37:20.that give you an idea of how a building that school change the

:37:21. > :37:26.area. It takes a while to take in, but this is a top- down view of the

:37:27. > :37:31.site. This is the roof of Grenfell Tower before the fire. This large

:37:32. > :37:35.building here is the Academy. This is a leisure centre that was also

:37:36. > :37:38.rebuilt as part of these plans, and this would have been one of the

:37:39. > :37:43.access routes for firefighters that day, you would have thought. Let's

:37:44. > :37:48.look back to see how this area changed. In 2013, you can see, this

:37:49. > :37:53.is when the building work was taking place. It was a large development, a

:37:54. > :37:58.lot of money going into it. If we look back further at how the whole

:37:59. > :38:00.area would have looked before in 2010, this gives you an idea of why

:38:01. > :38:09.residents were upset about this. This car park was demolished to make

:38:10. > :38:13.way for the Academy. First, this could have prevented emergency

:38:14. > :38:17.vehicles getting to the site more directly. And by losing these

:38:18. > :38:21.parking spaces, they said a lot of cars were pushed into the

:38:22. > :38:24.surrounding roads, and that could have also made it more difficult for

:38:25. > :38:31.emergency vehicles to get through. We know the Academy was built

:38:32. > :38:37.anyway, wasn't it? That's right. It opened in 2014. A lot of resistance

:38:38. > :38:41.to this Academy. 318 letters, we understand, opposing the

:38:42. > :38:45.construction, and just two in support. Lots of the residents we

:38:46. > :38:48.spoke to felt that the whole area was congested anyway, and they were

:38:49. > :38:53.going to lose green space as well as that car park as part of these

:38:54. > :38:58.plans, and it could potentially stop emergency vehicles reaching the site

:38:59. > :39:02.easily. We have been passed a letter written to the council in 2010 by

:39:03. > :39:05.someone on the Grenfell Action Group, the residents' committee

:39:06. > :39:35.which looks after the error. It says: -- that looks after the area.

:39:36. > :39:41.Clearly, there were concerns ahead of the construction of the Academy

:39:42. > :39:48.building. On the night of the blaze itself? We know it was busy,

:39:49. > :39:52.chaotic. 45 engines attended at one point, 200 firefighters, and then

:39:53. > :39:55.the other emergency vehicles on top of that. People we have spoken to

:39:56. > :40:02.are saying, look, access was a particular issue on the night. We

:40:03. > :40:06.spoke to Lucy Masoud, a senior official at the Fire Brigades Union,

:40:07. > :40:10.and she spoke to us about the huge difficulties, as she puts it, faced

:40:11. > :40:16.by some firefighters trying to get to the tower that night. The streets

:40:17. > :40:21.around here are quite narrow. Add to that is that there were cars parked,

:40:22. > :40:25.it certainly was an issue for us. At the start of the incident, when our

:40:26. > :40:29.fire engines arrived, we needed access to the dry riser, which is

:40:30. > :40:36.where we set in and produce water for the building. We know that we

:40:37. > :40:41.had access problems there. What sort of problems? Cars and bar lives?

:40:42. > :40:46.Absolutely. One of the main issues was getting past the parked cars.

:40:47. > :40:49.The roads are quite narrow around here, and then there are cars

:40:50. > :40:54.parked, getting our five engines is close to the building as they need

:40:55. > :40:57.to be to access water and get our firefighters into the building as

:40:58. > :41:03.quickly as possible, whenever is an access issue, it has a huge impact

:41:04. > :41:10.on our ability to fight the fire. Our firefighters were having to go

:41:11. > :41:15.into the building is six or seven times, when legally we are only

:41:16. > :41:18.allowed to go into my fire twice the cause of the impact on our bodies,

:41:19. > :41:27.so we were giving in half a dozen time because of the resources.

:41:28. > :41:32.Bollards were supposed to be able to retract, but they weren't, they were

:41:33. > :41:37.permanent. That would have given us more room to get closer to the

:41:38. > :41:41.building. The green spaces have been built over with various buildings,

:41:42. > :41:46.and that affected our ability to get our fire engines here. Lucy Masoud

:41:47. > :41:54.from the Fire Brigades Union. The union now say it once access

:41:55. > :41:56.included in the enquiry. Eyewitnesses were critical, because

:41:57. > :42:02.of what they saw one the night. Interestingly similar accounts from

:42:03. > :42:03.eyewitnesses to the account you just heard from Lucy. Just after the

:42:04. > :42:26.fire, we both spoke to Lucy we both spoke to Mahad, a resident

:42:27. > :42:33.and an eyewitness. We were the first few people, and we saw the fire

:42:34. > :42:35.brigade and emergency services. We thought it could be tackled, that

:42:36. > :42:47.half the building wouldn't be affected. Though what bollards that

:42:48. > :42:55.were blocking -- vert there where pollard is blocking the access. That

:42:56. > :43:01.account came a few hours after the fire, so Mahad would not have been

:43:02. > :43:05.able to read newspapers or watch TV news reports. Other eyewitnesses we

:43:06. > :43:10.spoke to had similar accounts. Yesterday, we spoke to a Reverend in

:43:11. > :43:14.one of the churches near the site of the fire, and he said he saw at

:43:15. > :43:19.least one car that had to be dragged away by the fire brigade to allow

:43:20. > :43:24.them access to the site, so more indications that access was some

:43:25. > :43:28.sort of issue that night. And what do the council and the fire service

:43:29. > :43:33.say? We asked the council to come on the programme, but they said, we

:43:34. > :43:36.don't think it is right to make comments until the issue has been

:43:37. > :43:40.discussed with the police and the enquiry. The London Fire Brigade,

:43:41. > :43:43.distinct from the union, have said, it is inevitable and not all

:43:44. > :43:47.resources will be able to park next to the scene of a fire, so we have

:43:48. > :43:52.procedures to make sure that cruise can be rotated in and out as quickly

:43:53. > :43:57.as possible. Breaking news: The communities secretary has announced

:43:58. > :44:01.more details of the independent Grenfell recovery task force. This

:44:02. > :44:05.is the group that will look at the long-term recovery of the area, so

:44:06. > :44:12.what happens to the site itself. Are the right procedures in place for

:44:13. > :44:16.people who live in the local area? Javed Khan, the chief executive of

:44:17. > :44:23.Barnardo's has been appointed, Jim Scott, the leader of Wiltshire

:44:24. > :44:26.Council. The leader of the West Midlands police advisory group,

:44:27. > :44:29.people like that. They will meet in the next few weeks, and the

:44:30. > :44:31.communities secretary wants a first report by October this year. Thank

:44:32. > :44:35.you very much, Jim. We can speak now to Tony Morris

:44:36. > :44:46.who's a retired fire fighter Over 30 years, I think, as a

:44:47. > :44:51.firefighter. 15 years as the senior emergency planning officer. In your

:44:52. > :44:55.view, what impact it restricted access have on firefighters' ability

:44:56. > :45:03.to tackle the blaze? I think it would have been significant.

:45:04. > :45:06.Clearly, time is, in attacking the fire and rescue people, is critical.

:45:07. > :45:14.Any delay really hampers the efforts, and it increases the energy

:45:15. > :45:18.expended by firefighters having to return longer distances to collect

:45:19. > :45:24.equipment from vehicles and so on. I wonder if you think perhaps the

:45:25. > :45:28.public enquiry should be widened in order to look at changes to the

:45:29. > :45:29.Grenfell site over the years and how that affected the response on the

:45:30. > :45:40.night. Definitely. I responded to the

:45:41. > :45:42.consultation on the terms of reference and are included in that

:45:43. > :45:47.the need to look at everything from the original building construction

:45:48. > :45:53.through to what has happened since, what changes have been made, both to

:45:54. > :45:59.the building and around the building, because changes do tend to

:46:00. > :46:04.get made that don't take full account of Fire Service access.

:46:05. > :46:05.Thank you very much, Tony Morris, who was a retired firefighter and

:46:06. > :46:12.emergency planner. Still to come... We'll be live at the supreme court

:46:13. > :46:19.as the public service union Unison finds out if it's won its legal

:46:20. > :46:22.challenge against the increase in fees for those bringing

:46:23. > :46:27.employment tribunals and appeals. ?1200 costs at the moment and they

:46:28. > :46:30.say it is way too much. We will bring you that news live as it

:46:31. > :46:32.happens. A BBC Panorama investigation has

:46:33. > :46:35.found 60 reports of murder or thoughts of murder associated

:46:36. > :46:37.with antidepressants have been received by the UK medicines

:46:38. > :46:41.regulator in the last three decades. The Medicines and Healthcare

:46:42. > :46:43.Products Regulatory Agency says the reports don't necessarily mean

:46:44. > :46:49.the drugs caused the events. The investigation has also found

:46:50. > :46:51.evidence that suggests an antidepressant may have played

:46:52. > :46:53.a role in one of America's worst mass shootings,

:46:54. > :46:56.when a 24-year-old man with no history of violence shot dead

:46:57. > :46:58.12 people at a cinema screening of Batman in the US

:46:59. > :47:06.state of Colorado. Now a year-long investigation

:47:07. > :47:13.by the BBC is claiming there may be a link between James Holmes' actions

:47:14. > :47:30.and the anti-depressants Panorama has learned that in

:47:31. > :47:36.preparation for the trial two years ago, the defence brought a UK based

:47:37. > :47:43.psychiatrist to evaluate the evidence and meet Holm is in prison.

:47:44. > :47:45.Became too controversial in conclusion. I believe if he hadn't

:47:46. > :47:50.taken the sertraline, he wouldn't have murdered anyone. But his

:47:51. > :47:54.evidence was never tested in court it up Panorama has scrutinised what

:47:55. > :47:59.happened after James holds took the drug. And no book he wrote provide

:48:00. > :48:07.some clues. Holds wrote in his notebook how his obsession with

:48:08. > :48:11.killing default. It tends -- intense aversion of people, cause unknown,

:48:12. > :48:16.it began, suppressed by greater fear of others. And after he started

:48:17. > :48:19.taking sertraline, no more fear, hatred and checked, starts small, by

:48:20. > :48:39.a stun gun and knife. By handgun. Simon is a psychiatrist. The

:48:40. > :48:43.antidepressant James Hanson is taking at the time of the attack has

:48:44. > :48:46.held many and there was no evidence linking into homicide.

:48:47. > :48:47.Over 40 million prescriptions for SSRI anti-depressants

:48:48. > :48:50.were handed out by doctors last year in the UK.

:48:51. > :48:52.A freedom of information request has revealed the UK medicines regulator

:48:53. > :48:55.received 60 reports claiming there was a link between

:48:56. > :48:59.antidepressants and cases of murder and murderous thoughts over

:49:00. > :49:06.One of Britain's leading psychiatrists is calling for more

:49:07. > :49:08.research into the extreme side effects of the medication,

:49:09. > :49:14.But other leading medical professionals say there is no good

:49:15. > :49:17.evidence that antidepressants increase the risk of violent

:49:18. > :49:24.behaviour, and extremely rare cases could be explained by chance.

:49:25. > :49:28.Her son Shane killed his ex-girlfriend's boyfriend

:49:29. > :49:34.She blames the antidepressants he was on at the time,

:49:35. > :49:37.though there is no evidence that that is the case.

:49:38. > :49:39.Kirk Brandon claims he experienced murderous thoughts

:49:40. > :49:43.while he was on antidepressants in the 1990s.

:49:44. > :49:46.Ryan James has been taking medication for more than a decade.

:49:47. > :49:53.Also here is the immediate past President of the Royal College

:49:54. > :49:58.of Psychiatrists, Professor Simon Wessely.

:49:59. > :50:06.Welcome to all of you. I'm going to start with Leone. Tell us what shame

:50:07. > :50:13.was like before you started taking antidepressants. Shane was 22 and

:50:14. > :50:17.was going into his final year in college. He was happy,

:50:18. > :50:21.good-humoured, handsome. He had everything going for him. He was

:50:22. > :50:28.very kind, he loved his younger brothers and sister. Shane was no

:50:29. > :50:35.different than anybody else. His lecturers knew him as the Irish word

:50:36. > :50:40.for the big heart to talk that explains what he was like before he

:50:41. > :50:46.died. Tell us what Tell us what happened after he started taking

:50:47. > :50:50.antidepressants. 17 days after taking the antidepressant, he had

:50:51. > :51:00.split up with his girlfriend so he had gone to wear his ex-girlfriend

:51:01. > :51:07.of. She stabbed her new boyfriend and he died, and then he injured his

:51:08. > :51:12.ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend's brother and then he went

:51:13. > :51:16.out into the back garden and stabbed himself 19 times and he died. That

:51:17. > :51:23.was 17 days after starting the antidepressant. And you believe,

:51:24. > :51:27.clearly, there is a big link? I have no doubt there was a link. I have no

:51:28. > :51:30.doubt if Shane hadn't been on the antidepressant, he wouldn't be dead

:51:31. > :51:36.now and either with the other young man. Let me bring in Kirk. You an

:51:37. > :51:40.antidepressants for just under a year, I think? Ten months. Can you

:51:41. > :51:47.relate to some of what Leonie has described with Shane? Yes, I can.

:51:48. > :51:51.Out of nowhere... I was only on it for ten months but you get

:51:52. > :51:55.incredible feelings of rage that just turn up out of the blue, just

:51:56. > :52:01.sitting watching the TV or whatever you are doing, and I'm not really a

:52:02. > :52:07.violent guy. I knew that this was coming from somewhere really

:52:08. > :52:12.strange, and I put it principally and totally down to the drug, so

:52:13. > :52:16.rocks at. It is my belief that it is a very dangerous drug and although

:52:17. > :52:21.many tens of millions take it, there are many thousands where it goes

:52:22. > :52:28.wrong and they will either do violence to themselves or kill

:52:29. > :52:34.themselves. I think the medical authorities should really seriously

:52:35. > :52:38.look again at SSRIs, in particular the one I took that they should look

:52:39. > :52:45.at these things again. As you rightly say, millions of people take

:52:46. > :52:50.that particular antidepressants. There are various brands that if we

:52:51. > :52:54.described them as SSRIs. And Ryan, you have a very different

:52:55. > :53:00.experience. Yeah, it is horrible to hear about the other stories but my

:53:01. > :53:04.experience can only be described as positive and that's since I was 14,

:53:05. > :53:12.15, when I was first prescribed them and I was on citalopram. Positive in

:53:13. > :53:16.what way? The general effect, I really noticed the difference in how

:53:17. > :53:21.it changed how I was feeling about myself and my situation. I know

:53:22. > :53:27.there were conversations with parents and doctors before I was put

:53:28. > :53:34.on anything because I was quite young and I know even day today now,

:53:35. > :53:40.they I do believe help me get out of bed in the morning. Kirk, what is

:53:41. > :53:49.your recollection of the worst point in that 10-month period when you

:53:50. > :53:56.were on it? Once I started taking it, I entered another reality and it

:53:57. > :54:02.wasn't a very pleasant one. The rage, really ugly stuff. Probably

:54:03. > :54:06.the hardest bit was, my sister is a psychiatric nurse and she said, it

:54:07. > :54:12.is most probably the drug, because they have a lot of trouble with it

:54:13. > :54:19.in the psych wards. I said I would go cold turkey on it, which is what

:54:20. > :54:24.I did, and I realised I was seriously addicted. This stuff was

:54:25. > :54:28.incredibly addictive and that was harrowing, to tell you the truth. It

:54:29. > :54:36.was harrowing. I wouldn't wish that anyone. That was the hardest bit,

:54:37. > :54:41.coming off it. That's interesting. Let me read to messages from people

:54:42. > :54:46.who are watching you around the country. Dan says antidepressants

:54:47. > :54:50.interfere with your humanity, no surprise they can make your

:54:51. > :54:56.aggressive. Italy says, antidepressants don't make you

:54:57. > :55:04.violent. Playmate suppressed anxiety about already being a psychopath but

:55:05. > :55:09.they don't make them. And I was abroad, grandad was put on one SSRI

:55:10. > :55:12.and he turned wild and then to grabbing man around the throat. As a

:55:13. > :55:18.psychiatrist, professors and Westley, what is the view of the

:55:19. > :55:28.link between murder or murderous thoughts and violence,? People do do

:55:29. > :55:31.research in this area. Antidepressants have been around for

:55:32. > :55:34.40 years. Billions of people in this country and war around the world

:55:35. > :55:41.have been taking them so we have a good idea what the side effects are.

:55:42. > :55:48.It is difficult because I have been meeting with people who have been

:55:49. > :55:51.affected by suicide or homicide and I don't think you ever get over it

:55:52. > :55:54.died of a guy can talk about individual cases. Last time I was on

:55:55. > :55:57.this programme was to talk about the rise to the present prescribing,

:55:58. > :56:03.which has been going up very steadily for 25 years. Last year 66

:56:04. > :56:08.million work prescribed in England and Wales. At the same time, suicide

:56:09. > :56:12.rates over the same period have been gradually decreasing, except in

:56:13. > :56:15.times of austerity and depression. If there was a link at an individual

:56:16. > :56:19.level with that amount of prescribing going up, you would see

:56:20. > :56:24.different suicide rates, so I think people will probably understand that

:56:25. > :56:28.even a fairly small link, given about 11 cents of the population on

:56:29. > :56:33.these drugs, you would have seen an increase in suicide as well. So I

:56:34. > :56:37.think overall professional opinion is that the benefits of

:56:38. > :56:41.antidepressants outweigh the risks. And bearing that in mind, taking

:56:42. > :56:46.that time accepting that, of course that does not discount these

:56:47. > :56:50.individual examples. It certainly doesn't. Kirk has pointed out one of

:56:51. > :56:55.the problems of the antidepressants is that if you do go cold turkey,

:56:56. > :56:58.that's not a good idea. Anyone who is going to watch this programme

:56:59. > :57:02.tonight or is watching Stanley was thinking as a result of this that

:57:03. > :57:05.you should just come off antidepressants, that is really not

:57:06. > :57:14.a good idea and you can get unpleasant symptoms. You can do it

:57:15. > :57:19.slowly. Can I say one thing? Seroxat is made by a company called

:57:20. > :57:26.GlaxoSmithKline. On the packet, it said, this drug is not addictive. I

:57:27. > :57:31.would beg to differ. Obviously, the drugs company are not here to give

:57:32. > :57:34.their own side of the story. I think it is more withdrawal symptoms that

:57:35. > :57:40.people get and some people find them very difficult and have great

:57:41. > :57:42.problems coming off drugs so people who are thinking of stopping

:57:43. > :57:46.antidepressants, they should remember, first of all, don't do it

:57:47. > :57:51.abruptly and second, there is a genuine risk of relapse and

:57:52. > :57:53.depressive illness and that is incontrovertible and potentially

:57:54. > :58:00.serious so you really should think very carefully if you watch this

:58:01. > :58:04.programme tonight, which sounds a little difficult, before you do

:58:05. > :58:07.that. Those are absolute certainties. You can get withdrawal

:58:08. > :58:12.symptoms and you can have a relapse of your illness. Of the rest, I have

:58:13. > :58:18.to say most professionals are not particularly convinced. Thank you

:58:19. > :58:26.very much. Thank you all for coming in on the programme. The programme

:58:27. > :58:29.tonight is on BBC One at 9pm, BBC Panorama, and the drugs companies

:58:30. > :58:33.say millions and millions of people across the world have been helped by

:58:34. > :58:37.SSRIs. Let me bring you this breaking news

:58:38. > :58:42.to do with the challenge that Unison brought against what they said were

:58:43. > :58:47.expensive fees for workers to take a case for an employment tribunal. The

:58:48. > :58:54.Supreme Court has agreed to adopt Unison has won has challenged those

:58:55. > :58:57.fees, 1200 quid to take a case to an employment tribunal. The court found

:58:58. > :59:01.that the fees order, which introduced fees in 2013 for

:59:02. > :59:05.claimants bringing claims, is unlawful in both domestic and EU law

:59:06. > :59:13.because it has the effect of preventing access to justice. So the

:59:14. > :59:18.Supreme Court says that Unison's challenge to these fees means that

:59:19. > :59:22.the fees will have to go because it is unlawful. Much more reaction to

:59:23. > :59:24.that to come in the next half hour of the programme. The latest news

:59:25. > :59:29.and sport in a second but before that, the weather.

:59:30. > :59:34.Heavy rain has been moving steadily towards the east as we've gone

:59:35. > :59:37.through the course of this morning. Some lovely Weather Watchers

:59:38. > :59:42.pictures. It was a dumb start in Devon with a lot of cloud but as we

:59:43. > :59:47.push further east, it was drier but now the cloud is building and these

:59:48. > :59:51.pictures are courtesy of our Weather Watchers. You can see the amount of

:59:52. > :59:56.rainfall we have had. It has moved out of Northern Ireland, continuing

:59:57. > :59:59.across Scotland and north-west England, extending through Wales,

:00:00. > :00:03.down towards the Isle of Wight, and that is going to be pushing steadily

:00:04. > :00:08.eastwards through day, eventually clearing off into the North Sea, so

:00:09. > :00:13.behind it across northern England, a mixture of sunshine and showers but

:00:14. > :00:16.from the Washed through East Anglia, Kent, the Midlands down towards the

:00:17. > :00:21.Isle of Wight, still rain about it any more patchy in nature. In the

:00:22. > :00:25.south-west of England, it will dry up after this morning's rain, the

:00:26. > :00:30.same for Wales. Still some rain around at the moment, that clears

:00:31. > :00:33.eastwards and the sun will come out brightening up already across

:00:34. > :00:37.Northern Ireland but there are still a few showers dotted around. Behind

:00:38. > :00:42.the rain in Scotland, bright spells, sunshine and showers. By 4pm the

:00:43. > :00:46.ring will be and is constantly northern isles. Through the evening

:00:47. > :00:49.and overnight, the rain moves away from Orkney and Shetland. There will

:00:50. > :00:56.be a lot of dry weather but we also looking at a lot of showers across

:00:57. > :00:59.western Scotland and Northern Ireland, north-west England, Wales

:01:00. > :01:03.on the south-west and it is not going to be particularly cold, towns

:01:04. > :01:06.and cities staying in double figures. The reason for all the

:01:07. > :01:09.showers of this area of low pressure edging closer towards the

:01:10. > :01:13.north-west. You can see from the squeeze on the isobars it is also

:01:14. > :01:19.going to be windy. Touching gale force with exposure around the

:01:20. > :01:21.coasts, north-west Scotland, and the coastal Northern Ireland, quite

:01:22. > :01:25.possible. The showers merging to give longer spells of rain. You

:01:26. > :01:30.could hear the odd clap of thunder and see the odd hailstone but for

:01:31. > :01:33.the rest of the British Isles, a day of bright spells, sunshine and

:01:34. > :01:38.showers and you know the drill with showers, not all of us will catch

:01:39. > :01:43.one. 15 in the north to highs of 20 in the South. As we head through the

:01:44. > :01:46.rest of Thursday and into Friday, if anything the low pressure is dragged

:01:47. > :01:51.a bit further north westwards but still the squeeze on that isobars

:01:52. > :01:54.denote that it is going to be a breezy day, particularly close to

:01:55. > :02:00.the centre of low pressure, where the squeeze is the tightest. Again,

:02:01. > :02:03.showers squeezing across Scotland, some across northern England to talk

:02:04. > :02:09.a lot of dry weather across the course of the day to talk if you

:02:10. > :02:11.have outdoor plans, this may change. That has been oscillating this

:02:12. > :02:15.morning northwards and southwards so we think it is coming across parts

:02:16. > :02:20.of the south and south-west, possibly parts of south Wales,

:02:21. > :02:25.temperature is up to 20 wanted up by Friday and into Saturday, we have

:02:26. > :02:27.that rain scooting across southern counties as a showery future and we

:02:28. > :02:42.are back into sunshine and showers. Is the culture of abuse towards MPs

:02:43. > :02:47.completely out of control? MPs from all parties have been telling us

:02:48. > :02:48.about the type of intimidating and bullying messages they receive.

:02:49. > :02:50.Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

:02:51. > :02:55.Eat EXPLETIVE in hell, you Tory witch.

:02:56. > :02:58.Get out of my country, you ugly, racist EXPLETIVE!

:02:59. > :03:20.We will talk to one newly elected MP who said the 2017 general election

:03:21. > :03:22.was the most abusive and vindictive campaign he has ever been involved

:03:23. > :03:25.in. Sperm count has halved

:03:26. > :03:43.in the last 40 years. Of the linked to reduced sperm

:03:44. > :03:50.count. Smoking has an effect. And like of physical activity, stress,

:03:51. > :03:53.all of these factors that are also associated with poor health are

:03:54. > :04:02.factors that affect sperm production. And should the law be

:04:03. > :04:06.changed to make elderly drivers retake their test? We are asking

:04:07. > :04:09.because the number of people over 90 who hold a driving licence has

:04:10. > :04:14.reached the 100,000 mark for the first time. We will ask drivers what

:04:15. > :04:20.they think. Here's Ben Brown in the BBC Newsroom

:04:21. > :04:30.with a summary of today's news. New diesel and petrol cars are to be

:04:31. > :04:36.banned from 2040, as part of efforts to tackle air pollution. It heralds

:04:37. > :04:42.a move to all electric vehicles which currently only account for 1%

:04:43. > :04:49.of the market. There will also be a fund 's of over ?200 million to

:04:50. > :04:53.help. Michael Gove said the ban is needed to tackle climate change. We

:04:54. > :04:58.have to get rid of petrol and diesel cars off our roads of we want to

:04:59. > :05:00.make sure that we want to deal with their health problems that ebb

:05:01. > :05:04.pollution causes and to meet our climate change targets. The good

:05:05. > :05:11.news is that the car industry is already moving in this direction.

:05:12. > :05:16.Volvo and Many are both moving in this direction, and we have to as a

:05:17. > :05:18.Government help the car industry do the right thing.

:05:19. > :05:20.The Supreme Court is to rule on a challenge to the increase

:05:21. > :05:25.The legal battle is a challenge to the fees brought in June 2013

:05:26. > :05:42.in tribunals, which range from ?390 to ?1600.

:05:43. > :05:50.The office of National statistics said the economy grew by 0.3% in the

:05:51. > :05:53.last quarter. The increase is credited to the services sector.

:05:54. > :05:56.The High Court judge overseeing the case of the terminally ill baby

:05:57. > :05:59.Charlie Gard will decide today whether the child's parents can

:06:00. > :06:02.Doctors at Great Ormond Street Hospital say that,

:06:03. > :06:05.in the interest of his care, he should stay where he is or be

:06:06. > :06:09.His parents have appealed for a specialist doctor to come

:06:10. > :06:14.forward so he can spend his final hours at home.

:06:15. > :06:17.The judge leading the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has

:06:18. > :06:19.told survivors he would "get to the bottom" of the tragedy

:06:20. > :06:23.Shouting broke out as residents expressed their anger ahead

:06:24. > :06:25.of the final consultation on what the investigation

:06:26. > :06:38.A final meeting will be held tonight on the scope of the investigation.

:06:39. > :06:45.At least 80 people were killed in the blaze.

:06:46. > :06:47.Princess Diana's brother says he was like two about Prince William and

:06:48. > :06:51.Prince Harry wanting to walk behind their mother's coffin. In an

:06:52. > :06:57.interview with the Today programme, he said it was a bizarre and cruel

:06:58. > :07:00.thing for the Princes to do. He also said the funeral procession was the

:07:01. > :07:05.most horrifying half an hour of his life. He was speaking as the 20th

:07:06. > :07:09.anniversary of her death approaches in August. I really wasn't thinking

:07:10. > :07:14.about the outside world, but it was impossible not to connect with the

:07:15. > :07:25.emotion coming from the crowd. It was so powerful. Pulsing through us,

:07:26. > :07:29.I think. It was so bizarre, the sort of crunching of our procession with

:07:30. > :07:36.the horses and carriage, and our footsteps, and then the incredible,

:07:37. > :07:37.crashing emotion coming in from every side. It was really

:07:38. > :07:40.horrifying. At least 10,000 people, including

:07:41. > :07:42.British holiday-makers, were moved to safety in the south of France

:07:43. > :07:46.during the night to escape rapidly A new blaze has broken

:07:47. > :07:52.out west of St Tropez. A number of campsites on the coast

:07:53. > :08:10.have been evacuated. More from mere 10:30am.

:08:11. > :08:13.Thanks for your comments. We will talk to newly elected MPs who have

:08:14. > :08:16.only been in the job for a month about the abuse they have

:08:17. > :08:24.experienced during the election campaign. One was elected this year

:08:25. > :08:28.and one was elected in 2015. Andy on Facebook: Sadly, MPs only have

:08:29. > :08:33.themselves to blame. It is hypocritical when they attack each

:08:34. > :08:36.other in the press. Their behaviour PMQs is disgusting. Also, in light

:08:37. > :08:42.of current events, you have to question their competence.

:08:43. > :08:45.Charming! Tim says: Perhaps if MPs behaved with more respect and

:08:46. > :08:56.civility in the House of Commons they might be treated with the same.

:08:57. > :09:07.Ian says: Ian says... I read this one earlier. If you are getting in

:09:08. > :09:12.touch, use the hashtag Victoria life. Now, sport.

:09:13. > :09:16.Adam Peaty, what a week it has been for himself. He was left stunned by

:09:17. > :09:19.his own performances as he continues to set the standard not just the

:09:20. > :09:23.Great Britain but for the whole world in the swimming pool. The

:09:24. > :09:28.Olympic champion beat his own world record twice in a single day, and he

:09:29. > :09:37.broke the 26-2nd mark for the first time. He goes into the final today

:09:38. > :09:41.looking to set an even faster time. This morning, I went 26.1, and I

:09:42. > :09:49.thought it would be hard to beat that. Tonight, I was like, get

:09:50. > :09:53.yourself up for it, do what you do. I will not waste an opportunity

:09:54. > :09:54.because I do not know if it will be my last. I

:09:55. > :10:01.just went out there and did what I do.

:10:02. > :10:03.James Guy couldn't defend his world title

:10:04. > :10:07.He finished in fifth, just behind fellow Briton Duncan Scott.

:10:08. > :10:10.Today there are seven Brits in individual final action,

:10:11. > :10:12.including Scott who goes again in the 100-metre freestyle

:10:13. > :10:16.Manchester United manager Jose Mourinho says that some clubs

:10:17. > :10:18.are paying far too much for players this summer.

:10:19. > :10:20.His team, of course, spent 75 million on Romelu Lukaku

:10:21. > :10:24.Last summer, they spent 89 million on Paul Pogba but the United

:10:25. > :10:28.boss believes smaller clubs are overspending.

:10:29. > :10:32.We spent a lot of money on the striker, and if we don't do

:10:33. > :10:39.That is obvious nowadays, especially for the strikers,

:10:40. > :10:45.Every club is getting players, investing a lot.

:10:46. > :10:48.Some clubs, obviously, they are paying too much,

:10:49. > :10:52.and by doing that, they create a very strange and out-of-control

:10:53. > :11:07.England's cricketers will look to regain the series lead

:11:08. > :11:10.when they face South Africa in the third test at the Oval

:11:11. > :11:13.They'll have debutant Tom Westley in the side,

:11:14. > :11:15.who comes in to replace the injured Gary Ballance.

:11:16. > :11:18.The Essex batsman will be making his England debut at the age of 28.

:11:19. > :11:26.It has probably started to sink in now. It has been a surreal few days.

:11:27. > :11:29.It is just the build-up, really. Come Thursday, I will be nervous, as

:11:30. > :11:33.expected, but I think the challenge for me is to replicate what I have

:11:34. > :11:39.been doing for Essex, and hopefully do that for England.

:11:40. > :11:40.British Cycling has influenced nearly three

:11:41. > :11:43.quarters of a million women, who weren't cycling previously,

:11:44. > :11:47.The sport's governing body says it's well on it's way to reaching it's

:11:48. > :11:50.target to get 1 million more women cycling by 2020, but two times

:11:51. > :11:53.Olympic gold medallist Joanna Rowsell Shand says some women

:11:54. > :12:03.Road safety - that comes up all the time. Fear of riding in a group

:12:04. > :12:07.comes up quite a lot, so some people feel that they are OK by themselves,

:12:08. > :12:11.but in a group, what if they can't keep up, there are a bit wobbly,

:12:12. > :12:16.things like that? Bike mechanics comes up all the time, that fear of,

:12:17. > :12:20.what if I get a puncture or something happens on my bike? How do

:12:21. > :12:22.I deal with that? If you are in a group, what if the group has to wait

:12:23. > :12:24.for me, if I'm too slow... And a quick reminder -

:12:25. > :12:27.if you do fancy picking up cycling or any other sport,

:12:28. > :12:30.go to the Get Inspired page MPs from all parties have been

:12:31. > :12:48.shedding light on the scale Many say that in last month's

:12:49. > :12:49.general election, it was off the scale.

:12:50. > :12:51.An inquiry into the issue was announced by the standards

:12:52. > :12:53.watchdog earlier in July, and began its

:12:54. > :12:56.Our reporter John Own has been investigating the type

:12:57. > :12:59.of abuse they receive - we bought you his full

:13:00. > :13:01.report earlier - here's a short extract clip.

:13:02. > :13:03.Caroline Ansell is as bad as Isis and Hitler.

:13:04. > :13:24.Here at Westminster, a lot of people are afraid that in the recent

:13:25. > :13:27.turbulence, the nature of the political conversation may have

:13:28. > :13:30.changed for the worse. MPs have told this programme about an emerging

:13:31. > :13:34.culture of abuse and intimidation in public life. This was the most

:13:35. > :13:38.abusive and vindictive campaign most of us have been involved with. It

:13:39. > :13:43.should never be part of the job to receive this level of abuse. All of

:13:44. > :13:48.them told us they had received some abuse online, ranging from the quite

:13:49. > :13:53.trivial to the very X Screen -- the very extreme. They all agree that in

:13:54. > :14:00.the last few years things have become worse. Simon Hart has been

:14:01. > :14:02.trying to further light on this problem, and he mainly blames

:14:03. > :14:08.activists on the left for the deterioration in the quality of

:14:09. > :14:12.debate. They are more active, there is more evidence of activity, in

:14:13. > :14:16.this election orchestrated from the than left from the right. It was not

:14:17. > :14:20.exclusively like that, I emphasise. Do you think there has been a change

:14:21. > :14:24.in the character of left-wing activism in the last few years that

:14:25. > :14:28.you would say is responsible for the rise in this type of language? That

:14:29. > :14:32.would be how it appears to me. On the other end of the spectrum,

:14:33. > :14:38.Labour's Kat Smith, a member of the Shadow Cabinet and a close ally of

:14:39. > :14:42.Jeremy Corbyn, has a different story to tell. What we saw from the Tory

:14:43. > :14:47.Party during the election was the singling out of, let's be honest,

:14:48. > :14:55.Diane Abbott, and some of the very personal attacks, I think, bordered

:14:56. > :14:59.on the racist. Are you saying the Conservative party has officially

:15:00. > :15:05.sanctioned race is campaigning against people like Sadiq Khan and

:15:06. > :15:08.Diane Abbott? I think when they campaign -- I think when the

:15:09. > :15:12.official campaign is using the wolf whistle politics that they did use,

:15:13. > :15:17.it almost gives permission for people who are racist online to take

:15:18. > :15:21.a step further and use the kind of threatening language we have seen

:15:22. > :15:27.directed at Sadiq Khan and Diane Abbott. Conservative Caroline Ansell

:15:28. > :15:30.lost her seat in the ultra-marginal consistency of -- constituency of

:15:31. > :15:34.Eastbourne after a hard-fought campaign in the election. You post a

:15:35. > :15:44.comment, and it can create a feeding frenzy for people who seem to be

:15:45. > :15:47.just waiting for you to have the temerity to talk about a success

:15:48. > :15:49.that you have managed to come through. Do you feel hesitant to

:15:50. > :15:57.express opinions because of a fear of a backlash you might get?

:15:58. > :16:00.I guess I have had a moment, if you moments where I've,

:16:01. > :16:02.you know, paused over posts, because I know what

:16:03. > :16:09.The government has recently asked the Committee for Standards

:16:10. > :16:12.in Public Life to interrogate this issue, and to make recommendations

:16:13. > :16:18.There are different interpretations, or what the balance is,

:16:19. > :16:22.or who is suffering the most, and so on, but the really

:16:23. > :16:23.interesting thing is across the parties in Westminster,

:16:24. > :16:40.nobody is actually saying this is an imaginary, got up thing.

:16:41. > :16:46.We're going to talk to three MPs in the moment but first we're going to

:16:47. > :16:50.the Supreme Court to to Clive Coleman. Unison has won its case

:16:51. > :16:53.against the fees you have to pay to take a case to tribunal.

:16:54. > :16:58.This is an absolutely huge judgment not just for Unison but for anyone

:16:59. > :17:04.who has taken an employment tribunal claim within the last... Since July

:17:05. > :17:08.2013 when these fees came in and they are pretty hefty fees, so in a

:17:09. > :17:13.simple case they will amount to something like ?390, in a more

:17:14. > :17:17.complex case 1200, if you want to appeal a further ?1600 and today the

:17:18. > :17:21.Supreme Court has unanimously ruled that these fees are unlawful because

:17:22. > :17:25.they have the effect of preventing access to justice and, in addition

:17:26. > :17:30.to that, they have also ruled unanimously that they are indirectly

:17:31. > :17:32.discriminatory in that, for instance, they discredit against

:17:33. > :17:39.women because a higher proportion of women bring the more complex type of

:17:40. > :17:43.claims. This is huge. It also means that the Government, who have given

:17:44. > :17:46.an undertaking to pay back all of these fees, we think something of a

:17:47. > :17:50.region of ?32 million worth of these, should they be found to have

:17:51. > :17:56.acted unlawfully, they have to now repay that money. With me as Dave

:17:57. > :18:00.Prentis, general secretary of union would Unison, which brought this

:18:01. > :18:04.claim. Pumas be thrilled. We really are to take thiss' work. We knew

:18:05. > :18:10.that these fees were unlawful from the beginning because these take

:18:11. > :18:15.low-paid, vulnerable workers and prevent them on having access to

:18:16. > :18:19.justice. In doing that, this Government has acted according to

:18:20. > :18:24.the Supreme Court, not only broken common law but the constitutional

:18:25. > :18:30.law of the United Kingdom. It is even broken the 1215 Magna Carta as

:18:31. > :18:33.well as European Union law. This is an absolutely tremendous victory,

:18:34. > :18:38.probably the biggest victory of a court in the whole history of

:18:39. > :18:40.employment rights in this country. And, of course, it means that the

:18:41. > :18:44.people who have made claims will get their money back but, of course,

:18:45. > :18:49.many people would have been put off bringing claims at all. This is the

:18:50. > :18:53.terrible part of it because we knew from day one that this was not just

:18:54. > :18:58.unlawful but immoral, that low-paid workers could be put in this

:18:59. > :19:01.position and be denied access to justice. Small amount involved but

:19:02. > :19:05.it may include racial discrimination, sex discrimination,

:19:06. > :19:08.fair pay, it may be unfair deductions from wages, it may be not

:19:09. > :19:13.having rest breaks, but vulnerable workers were having to pay ?1200

:19:14. > :19:18.just to get their case heard. They couldn't afford it, they couldn't go

:19:19. > :19:22.and there have been over those former careers many thousands of

:19:23. > :19:28.workers who may have been affected by this unlawful act. Thank you very

:19:29. > :19:32.much indeed. There you have it, Victoria. This is a very significant

:19:33. > :19:37.ruling and workers now across the country will know that they can

:19:38. > :19:42.bring a claim at an employment tribunal and it will not cost them

:19:43. > :19:49.any money. At the moment, those fees have been quashed. Thank you, Clive

:19:50. > :19:53.Coleman, live from the Supreme Court and we will bring new reaction in

:19:54. > :19:56.the next few minutes. Let's continue our conversation about MPs and the

:19:57. > :19:59.kind of abuse they have been receiving.

:20:00. > :20:01.Perhaps one woman who receives more abuse than any other politician

:20:02. > :20:03.is Labour's Home Affairs Spokesperson Diane Abbot.

:20:04. > :20:05.Speaking in Parliament recently she described the torrent

:20:06. > :20:07.of "mindless" racist and sexist abuse, including death

:20:08. > :20:21.We are not talking here about robust debate, however robust it is. We are

:20:22. > :20:28.talking about mindless abuse and, in my case, the mindless abuse has been

:20:29. > :20:36.characteristically racist and sexist. And just outline, I've had

:20:37. > :20:42.death threats, I've had people tweeting that I should be hung if,

:20:43. > :20:47.quit, they could find a tree big enough to take the fat... Waits.

:20:48. > :20:53.There was an EDL affiliated Twitter account, Bernd Diane Abbott, I have

:20:54. > :21:00.had rain threats, described as an ugly, fat black... And over again,

:21:01. > :21:04.one of staff said that when people ask her, what is the most surprising

:21:05. > :21:10.thing about coming to work for me, the most surprising thing for her is

:21:11. > :21:14.how often she has to read the word... And this comes in through

:21:15. > :21:20.e-mails, through Twitter, through Facebook. But where I disagree with

:21:21. > :21:24.the honourable gentleman - he seems to suggest that this is all a

:21:25. > :21:28.relatively recent thing around the time of the selection. That is not

:21:29. > :21:34.my experience, that really is not my experience. It is certainly true

:21:35. > :21:38.that the online abuse that I experience and others experience has

:21:39. > :21:44.got worse in recent years, and it does get worse at election time, but

:21:45. > :21:51.I don't put it down to a particular election. I think the rise in the

:21:52. > :21:56.use of online has turbo-charged abuse because 30 years ago when I

:21:57. > :22:02.first became an MP, if you wanted to attack an MP, you had to write a

:22:03. > :22:05.letter, usually in green ink, you had to put it in an envelope, you

:22:06. > :22:10.had to put a stamp on it and you had to walk to the post box. Now they

:22:11. > :22:13.press a button and you read file abuse which 30 years ago people

:22:14. > :22:20.would have been frightened to even write down. So I accept that male

:22:21. > :22:25.politicians get abuse, too, but I hope the one thing we can bring in

:22:26. > :22:30.this chamber is that it is much worse for women and I think as well

:22:31. > :22:39.as the rise of online, anonymity is the thing. People would not come up

:22:40. > :22:43.to B and attack me for being a... In public. They will do it online and I

:22:44. > :22:48.am telling you, this is not once a week, this is not Jeremy election,

:22:49. > :22:52.this is every day. My stuff switch on a computer, go go on to Twitter

:22:53. > :22:56.and see this stuff. We can talk now to two new MPs

:22:57. > :22:59.and one relatively new MP - Simon Clarke was elected

:23:00. > :23:01.as the Conservative MP for Middlesbrough South

:23:02. > :23:03.and East Cleveland last month. Christine Jardine, who was also

:23:04. > :23:06.elected this summer as the Lib Dem as the Labour MP for

:23:07. > :23:21.Birmingham Yardley back in 2015 Thank you very much for coming on

:23:22. > :23:29.the programme. Simon, I'm going to read you a couple of messages that

:23:30. > :23:32.you have received. Simon, F off, use sycophantic parasite. And another

:23:33. > :23:38.one, at what point in your childhood did you decide to be evil? What

:23:39. > :23:42.impact does that have on you? Well, they are certainly not the nicest

:23:43. > :23:47.things to receive and it is part of a litany of similar messages that I

:23:48. > :23:51.think MPs of all parties have received during the course of this

:23:52. > :23:55.campaign but there is no question, as Diane Abbott was pointed out,

:23:56. > :24:00.this is not something which stops when the election goes away. It is,

:24:01. > :24:04.I'm afraid, part and parcel of modern politics and it is not

:24:05. > :24:07.something we should accept, it is something we must challenge, and

:24:08. > :24:13.those organisations which are stoking it need to be pulled to

:24:14. > :24:17.account it And by that, you mean...? By that, I principally mean

:24:18. > :24:22.Momentum. They are the grassroots group that support Jeremy Corbyn.

:24:23. > :24:26.And you accept there are loads of groups, including groups on the

:24:27. > :24:35.right, as well, who target MPs? That is certainly the case. No group has

:24:36. > :24:39.a monopoly on hatred and the bigotry and the intolerance and the vile

:24:40. > :24:46.abuse which MPs of all parties have suffered is not something which any

:24:47. > :24:50.one group is solely responsible for, but I do believe that the way in

:24:51. > :24:55.which, if you like, the extraparliamentary left in British

:24:56. > :24:59.politics has been operating has dramatically worsened the tone of

:25:00. > :25:06.the debate and that's not just online. Is also the fact that... I

:25:07. > :25:11.mean, all but a handful of my post is a general election campaign were

:25:12. > :25:19.defaced or destroyed and I know that some of my colleagues had swastikas

:25:20. > :25:24.or faces carved out. I did not see that happening to my Labour

:25:25. > :25:31.opponents. Labour do have particular questions to answer on this

:25:32. > :25:42.question. Adam Taggart is for this party to a countertop Jess Phillips,

:25:43. > :25:48.you have had abuse from some Labour supporters, essentially from

:25:49. > :25:53.Momentum. I wouldn't say that it was specifically from Momentum, as

:25:54. > :25:57.momentum organise, it is from members of the public who perhaps

:25:58. > :26:02.identify themselves as Momentum all members of the Labour Party. I have

:26:03. > :26:07.no way of checking who is a member of which organisation. But I have

:26:08. > :26:15.received abuse from the left as much as I have from the right. I have

:26:16. > :26:25.also received abuse from the centre, so this goes all over and this has

:26:26. > :26:28.activists running into my election campaign of his shrieking at me,

:26:29. > :26:33.saying very sexist lines that are often use against me by right wing

:26:34. > :26:37.commentators, so I think that to say that it is any one group is not

:26:38. > :26:41.right to talk I'm just going to read a couple of messages that have been

:26:42. > :26:46.sent to you, and then I want you to tell our audience how it affects you

:26:47. > :26:50.and your family, because some people think, it is just words on Twitter,

:26:51. > :26:58.who cares? These are some of the things. I wouldn't even rain you,

:26:59. > :27:01.Jess Phillips. And another one, Zionist filth like Jess Phillips

:27:02. > :27:06.have caused more damage in this world than Anjem Choudary and should

:27:07. > :27:11.be imprisoned. That's nice, isn't it? The way that that makes me feel

:27:12. > :27:18.is tired, actually, is the reality. It makes me wonder why we bother

:27:19. > :27:22.doing all of the things that we do, and this is just like, aren't MPs

:27:23. > :27:27.absolutely amazing? But I work incredibly long hours, I'm away from

:27:28. > :27:32.my children and it just makes you feel like, what is it all for when

:27:33. > :27:38.all people can see - and sometimes it feels like all you get is abuse.

:27:39. > :27:42.It can be very demoralising. And my son goes on YouTube, like all

:27:43. > :27:46.children go on YouTube, and the kids in his class will look me up because

:27:47. > :27:50.they are interested in fact that I am an MP and what they see as a load

:27:51. > :27:56.of people talking about how they would or would not rape me. That

:27:57. > :28:00.makes feel pretty rough. Christine, you are a brand-new MP and have been

:28:01. > :28:06.the job just over a month and already get abuse? Yeah, but I agree

:28:07. > :28:11.with Diane Abbott. That is actually not new. One of the worst periods,

:28:12. > :28:14.certainly in Scottish politics, was during the independence referendum,

:28:15. > :28:17.when some of the abuse and intimidation that people were

:28:18. > :28:23.getting was as bad as anything we've seen. I think I've been lucky. I've

:28:24. > :28:31.had abuse, I've had nasty things said about me. You get false it up

:28:32. > :28:36.about you, but I haven't had to suffer anything like the scale of

:28:37. > :28:41.abuse that Diane Abbott has had... Does what you've received, sorry to

:28:42. > :28:45.interrupt, have an effect on your confidence or your ability to do

:28:46. > :28:51.your job? I think it could have an affect on your confidence. I've been

:28:52. > :28:55.lucky in that after a particular incident, where it was extremely

:28:56. > :29:03.upsetting, I got support from members of all political parties.

:29:04. > :29:05.What was that incident? Er, well, I like to think it started from the

:29:06. > :29:12.misunderstanding during the suspension of campaigning after the

:29:13. > :29:16.Manchester bombing, and an activist said on Twitter that I had been out

:29:17. > :29:22.campaigning when, in fact, I have been my husband's funeral. That kind

:29:23. > :29:27.of grew arms and legs and it is the sort of thing that I think you can

:29:28. > :29:31.get on Twitter because you have no means of regulating its. I'm not a

:29:32. > :29:36.great fan of regulation but if you were in a radio, TV, newspaper

:29:37. > :29:40.newsroom and you want to say something like that about somebody,

:29:41. > :29:44.you would have to check it out and the lawyers would say, you can't say

:29:45. > :29:49.that in case it is not true. But on Twitter, the point Diana was making,

:29:50. > :29:53.people just go online and they think it is easy and I think they get

:29:54. > :29:56.pulled into thinking that they are anonymous, nobody is going to see it

:29:57. > :30:00.and they don't think about the impact it has on the person, on

:30:01. > :30:04.their confidence, on their family - it is very upsetting for their

:30:05. > :30:08.family - and I think all political parties have got to take

:30:09. > :30:12.responsibility for it. There was no one party responsible. You can all

:30:13. > :30:15.take responsibility, US politicians can be more civil to opponents and

:30:16. > :30:17.colleagues in the House of Commons and outside. What else is needed,

:30:18. > :30:27.Simon? Undoubtedly, we have a role to play.

:30:28. > :30:38.I think it is incumbent upon people to look into their own hearts and

:30:39. > :30:50.think about what they are doing. I campaigned with my colleague in

:30:51. > :30:58.Redcar, and her speech was drowned out by Jeremy Corbyn supporters

:30:59. > :31:02.screaming Corbyn, Corbyn, over the top of her speech because she was

:31:03. > :31:05.seen to be disloyal. I think those people need to take a long, hard

:31:06. > :31:12.look at themselves, what they're doing, and whether they think that

:31:13. > :31:16.is remotely acceptable. Jess, what do you suggest? I look forward to

:31:17. > :31:23.taking part in the enquiry. I think the leaders of political parties

:31:24. > :31:35.need to call out specifically their allies who do this. When Theresa May

:31:36. > :31:40.gets a bump because the papers print things about her opponents, instead

:31:41. > :31:44.of saying, that is not the tone of debate we should be having and I

:31:45. > :31:47.don't care if it helps me, and they shouldn't be perpetrating it. She

:31:48. > :31:51.should call that out. Jeremy Corbyn should round up those people

:31:52. > :31:54.specifically and publicly who shouted and say, pack it in, this is

:31:55. > :32:01.not how we behave. The other thing we need to do is to reactivate love

:32:02. > :32:07.that only comes when politicians die. When Jo died, across the House,

:32:08. > :32:11.no matter the party, everyone was saying what a great and brilliant

:32:12. > :32:15.woman she was, and that is right, but why do we only hear those things

:32:16. > :32:19.when someone's dead? We have to learn to be civil and show respect

:32:20. > :32:25.to the other side, but openly show respect. We have enough that divides

:32:26. > :32:28.us. There is a chasm between us, so we don't need to be hoping that

:32:29. > :32:34.people get abuse. A final thought from you, Christine? There is a

:32:35. > :32:39.general culture that the parties need to be aware of, and we do need

:32:40. > :32:44.to also think about the way that quotes are used in the media, and

:32:45. > :32:48.just support one another. It is a good point about saying, we only

:32:49. > :32:53.seem to say nice things about people when they are no longer with us. I

:32:54. > :32:56.don't think that would do any harm, but we have to take responsibility

:32:57. > :33:01.for what is happening online and make it clear that we don't support

:33:02. > :33:11.it. We don't want it from our own activists. Finally, would it ever

:33:12. > :33:14.get to the point where the type of bullying, intimidation and abuse

:33:15. > :33:29.that you receive would be enough for you not to stand for election again?

:33:30. > :33:36.To be honest, it does affect me and makes me feel sad. You know, it

:33:37. > :33:40.gives me a power. It makes me realise we all have to make the

:33:41. > :33:46.world better, and it makes me stronger. Simon? I completely agree.

:33:47. > :33:52.We won't give in, but it is depressing. That's the word I would

:33:53. > :33:55.use - profoundly depressing. It will put good people off coming into

:33:56. > :34:02.Parliament, and that is hugely regrettable. It won't stop me.

:34:03. > :34:09.Christine? Know, in many ways, it makes you more determined not to let

:34:10. > :34:14.those people win. I worry that it will put good people off getting

:34:15. > :34:33.involved in politics. OK, thank you all, very much.

:34:34. > :34:38.As the number of drivers over the age of 90 tops 100,000 for the first

:34:39. > :34:45.time, there have been calls for them to be forced to retake the test. We

:34:46. > :35:02.will get the views of an experienced driver and a new driver.

:35:03. > :35:08.Our medical correspondent Fergus Walsh is here with more news about

:35:09. > :35:13.the Charlie Gard case. I think the judges moving to a decision that is

:35:14. > :35:18.probably that Charlie should go to a hospice. The parents absolutely

:35:19. > :35:24.don't want Charlie to die in the intensive care unit where he has

:35:25. > :35:28.been since October. The hospital has known for some time that they wanted

:35:29. > :35:32.about a week at home with him. Great Ormond asked around the country, is

:35:33. > :35:39.their rate paediatric intensive specialist who would be available to

:35:40. > :35:43.oversee that care? And they haven't found anybody. The reason for that

:35:44. > :35:51.is that Charlie's needs are rather complex. He can't breathe, he can't

:35:52. > :35:54.move, he is fed by a tube, and were simple issues like whether the

:35:55. > :36:01.ventilator would fit through the front door. The parents' lawyers in

:36:02. > :36:05.court yesterday said that when Charlie is having things done to

:36:06. > :36:12.him, they can manually give him oxygen for a few minutes, so that

:36:13. > :36:16.problem could be overcome. Great Ormond says he needs to be treated

:36:17. > :36:22.in a specialist centre, and they are worried that something could happen

:36:23. > :36:26.to him. The compromise of a hospice, I think, is likely to be the way

:36:27. > :36:32.ahead, although the judge said yesterday that he was really

:36:33. > :36:36.pleading with both sides, can you please reach a decision amongst

:36:37. > :36:41.yourselves? I don't want to give an order. I think it will be an order

:36:42. > :36:46.that Charlie is moved to a hospice. Then we get the question of how long

:36:47. > :36:56.he is in there before his ventilation is removed. Thank you,

:36:57. > :37:03.Fergus. We will talk about the UK- US trade deal next, and the big

:37:04. > :37:07.issue of whether chlorine washed chickens would be allowed to enter

:37:08. > :37:09.the UK under such a deal. One minister says yes, and another says

:37:10. > :37:12.no. We can speak now to our political

:37:13. > :37:23.guru Norman Smith, who can explain It seems a bit bizarre talking about

:37:24. > :37:27.chickens as the new front line in the battle over Brexit, but it has

:37:28. > :37:31.become a test case for the kind of deals we may or may not be able to

:37:32. > :37:37.do once we leave the EU. No deal bigger than that we hope to strike

:37:38. > :37:44.with the US, and that is where the chickens come in. Obviously, the

:37:45. > :37:49.Americans want access for their food and farming sector in any trade

:37:50. > :37:55.deal, but their chickens are cleaned after they are slaughtered in

:37:56. > :37:58.chlorine. That is to get all the germs and gunk off them. The

:37:59. > :38:03.difference is that in Britain and the EU, we say, no thanks. If you

:38:04. > :38:07.have to do that to chickens, what kind of conditions are you keeping

:38:08. > :38:12.them in? So we have banned chlorinated chicken. Those in favour

:38:13. > :38:16.of a trade deal here say we have to relax. The Americans eat chicken,

:38:17. > :38:21.they are fine, and in fact, their chickens are about 20% cheaper, it

:38:22. > :38:25.is just you row, namby-pamby nonsense. It is a bigger issue than

:38:26. > :38:31.just chickens, because, the argument goes, if we give on chlorinated

:38:32. > :38:37.chickens, we will probably give on things like GM crops, which ROK in

:38:38. > :38:41.the US but not OK in Europe, on hormone injected beef, which is OK

:38:42. > :38:46.in the US and not OK here. Interestingly, today, the new

:38:47. > :38:52.environment Secretary, Michael Gove, said very clearly that we won't do a

:38:53. > :38:58.deal with the Americans. We will just waved goodbye to any big

:38:59. > :39:03.crucial trade deal if it means giving ground on the chickens. Have

:39:04. > :39:05.a listen to what he said when he was asked by Nick Robinson on the today

:39:06. > :39:08.programme about this. Chlorinated chicken - should it be

:39:09. > :39:13.allowed? You're the man who ultimately,

:39:14. > :39:15.if you're still agriculture secretary when the deal is done,

:39:16. > :39:19.the man who will have to decide. We don't need to waste time on this

:39:20. > :39:22.- yes to chlorinated chickens or no? I made it perfectly clear -

:39:23. > :39:27.and, indeed, this is something which all members of the government

:39:28. > :39:33.agreed - that we're not going to dilute our high animal

:39:34. > :39:35.welfare standards or our high environmental standards

:39:36. > :39:37.in pursuit of any trade deal. So if the Americans say,

:39:38. > :39:40."This super great deal," whatever Donald Trump's deal language

:39:41. > :39:42.is for it, "we've got to have access to our farmers,"

:39:43. > :39:44.Michael Gove says, "Well, Mr Trump, sorry, you can kiss

:39:45. > :39:47.goodbye to your trade deal"? Critically, we need

:39:48. > :39:57.to ensure that we do not That is a big statement by Michael

:39:58. > :40:02.Gove, because he is saying that no matter how big the deal, we just

:40:03. > :40:05.won't do it if it involves compromising of the chickens. What

:40:06. > :40:10.makes it more interesting is that is not the sort of music we are hearing

:40:11. > :40:13.from Liam Fox, the Cabinet minister who is supposed to be negotiating

:40:14. > :40:15.trade deals, because when he was asked on Newsnight last night about

:40:16. > :40:19.this, he was much more cautious. We don't need that regulation

:40:20. > :40:22.that the EU currently has. We will be prepared to accept

:40:23. > :40:25.whatever the chicken is washed in because we believe

:40:26. > :40:27.that is the right way to go, it makes food cheaper

:40:28. > :40:30.and it is a deal with the US? We will want to ensure

:40:31. > :40:32.that the scientific advice that we have ensures proper

:40:33. > :40:34.protection for British consumers, Well, it doesn't

:40:35. > :40:39.at the moment, right? The EU has a preventative strategy,

:40:40. > :40:42.so doesn't believe that chlorine washed chicken is the right thing

:40:43. > :40:46.to have in the EU. Will that change under

:40:47. > :40:48.Liam Fox's trade deal? Well, I can rule out that we will be

:40:49. > :40:54.dropping our standards and consumer protection or environmental

:40:55. > :40:56.protection or on animal welfare. These are all perfectly reasonable

:40:57. > :41:18.things for people to look at. Think on this: Next time you have a

:41:19. > :41:21.chicken burger, that is a signifier of all the difficulties we face in

:41:22. > :41:24.trying to negotiate new trade deals once we leave the EU.

:41:25. > :41:31.More on the news from the Supreme Court that the fees for taking a

:41:32. > :41:36.case to an employment tribunal, ?1200 and more in some cases, are

:41:37. > :41:37.unlawful and restrict access to justice, according to the Supreme

:41:38. > :41:49.Court. Let's get reaction. Now we can speak to Clara Mason,

:41:50. > :41:52.a teaching assistant and Unison branch official who is bringing

:41:53. > :41:54.an employment tribunal claim a member of the Independent Workers'

:41:55. > :42:05.Union who is taking his courier Your reaction? I think it is

:42:06. > :42:12.fantastic news. We had seen a 70% decrease in people taking tribunal

:42:13. > :42:16.action since it was included. People like me would never be able to go to

:42:17. > :42:20.court and stand up for what they believe if there were not changes

:42:21. > :42:25.like this. I welcome the changes and what the tribunal has said. You were

:42:26. > :42:29.taking your company to a tribunal anyway, despite the charges? If it

:42:30. > :42:34.were not for the help of the unions, I would never be able to afford

:42:35. > :42:41.that. Understood. How do you respond as an employment lawyer? It is a

:42:42. > :42:45.monumental day. I had to compose myself in the waiting room because I

:42:46. > :42:49.wanted to do a handstand. I don't know an employment lawyer who didn't

:42:50. > :42:54.think it was wrong to have fees. We all felt that it was morally the

:42:55. > :42:56.wrong thing to do, as a barrier to justice, but it didn't necessarily

:42:57. > :43:01.mean that the Supreme Court would hold that it was unlawful, so I am

:43:02. > :43:06.still reeling from the decision, and I can't wait to read the judgment.

:43:07. > :43:11.It is welcome news for people across the board, and hopefully it might

:43:12. > :43:16.help change some attitudes from employers as well. In what respect?

:43:17. > :43:21.In my experience, when the fees came in, I noticed that some employers

:43:22. > :43:25.were less willing to negotiate. Often, in a dispute, there is a

:43:26. > :43:31.resolution to be found. Because of the threat of a tribunal, so it is

:43:32. > :43:36.worth having mediation? Absolutely. We always try first to because it is

:43:37. > :43:41.better for both parties. When tribunal fees came in, there was

:43:42. > :43:47.this from employers which was, show me you really mean it - pay your

:43:48. > :43:49.fees. So it became harder. Cases which historically would have

:43:50. > :43:54.settled quite easily and quickly were running on for weeks and

:43:55. > :43:57.months. It definitely had an impact on attitudes from employers, and

:43:58. > :44:02.hopefully we will see that reversed. You say you can't wait to read the

:44:03. > :44:07.judgment. I can tell you, according to the Supreme Court judges, it was

:44:08. > :44:11.unanimous that it was unlawful in both domestic and EU law, and also

:44:12. > :44:15.indirectly discriminatory against women, because women apparently

:44:16. > :44:23.bring more complex cases. Is that correct? Yes. The fees ran into my

:44:24. > :44:29.extremes. The first type cost ?390 to run under the old regime, and the

:44:30. > :44:34.second, discrimination claims, ?1200, so significantly more

:44:35. > :44:38.expensive. There was evidence to support the fact that people

:44:39. > :44:41.bringing maternity and pregnancy discrimination claims, for example,

:44:42. > :44:44.sex discrimination claims, they couldn't even get off the ground

:44:45. > :44:51.with that level of fees. OK, thank you both for coming in. ?32 million

:44:52. > :44:55.in fees that had been paid already will have to be paid back, according

:44:56. > :45:02.to our correspondent. Let me bring you this news: Mark Dixie, who was

:45:03. > :45:10.serving a life sentence for the 2005 rape and murder of the teenage model

:45:11. > :45:15.Sally Anne Bowman, has pleaded guilty at Southwark Crown Court to

:45:16. > :45:17.rape, indecent assault and GBH charges relating to to make other

:45:18. > :45:28.women. serving a life sentence for the 2005

:45:29. > :45:34.rape and murder of the teenage model Sally Anne Bowman, has pleaded

:45:35. > :45:37.guilty at Southwark Crown Court to rape, indecent assault and GBH

:45:38. > :45:39.charges relating to to make other Your sperm count is declining

:45:40. > :45:50.and there are warnings that if it carries on at its current rate,

:45:51. > :45:53.humans could end up extinct. We are quite a long way away from

:45:54. > :45:57.that at the moment. Falling sperm count has been linked

:45:58. > :45:59.with exposure to chemicals used in pesticides and plastics,

:46:00. > :46:01.obesity, smoking, stress, diet, New research suggests that sperm

:46:02. > :46:05.count has dropped by more than 50% Earlier we spoke to Dr

:46:06. > :46:09.Hagai Levine, the leader researcher of the report,

:46:10. > :46:11.Professor Allan Pacey, Former Chair of the British Fertility Society,

:46:12. > :46:13.and Richard Clothier, who has been trying to conceive

:46:14. > :46:16.with his wife for over two years. Dr Levine told us what

:46:17. > :46:20.the study had uncovered. We found a dramatic, over 50%

:46:21. > :46:24.decline of two measures of sperm count, the sperm concentration

:46:25. > :46:30.and the total sperm count, a 50% decline over 40 years

:46:31. > :46:38.from 1973 to 2011, among men from Western

:46:39. > :46:42.countries and selected Furthermore, when we restricted

:46:43. > :46:52.the analysis to studies after 1995, to identify current

:46:53. > :46:55.trends, we found that the decline did not level off and

:46:56. > :47:00.even became steeper. OK, so the steepest

:47:01. > :47:03.climb is in the West. Is that partly because more studies

:47:04. > :47:07.are done in the West? We don't have enough data

:47:08. > :47:12.regarding the trends in And what are the other

:47:13. > :47:20.reasons for this steep decline in sperm concentration

:47:21. > :47:31.and sperm count? We know that the causes

:47:32. > :47:33.increase over time. First of all, exposure

:47:34. > :47:38.to man-made chemicals that harm male reproductive systems, both

:47:39. > :47:40.during development, in the foetal For example, chemicals

:47:41. > :47:50.like pesticides. This is, you know, an important

:47:51. > :47:52.suspect, especially as, obviously, genetics have

:47:53. > :48:00.not changed over time. We know that there is

:48:01. > :48:03.an obesity epidemic and we know that obesity

:48:04. > :48:04.is Smoking, especially smoking

:48:05. > :48:15.during the pregnancy, harms the development of the male

:48:16. > :48:17.foetus but also later on in life, and lack

:48:18. > :48:19.of physical activity, stress, all these things that are also

:48:20. > :48:22.associated with your health are factors that affect our

:48:23. > :48:24.sperm production, and men reproduce sperm every day by millions, so this

:48:25. > :48:29.is a good measure of the general More than that, recent studies

:48:30. > :48:37.that sperm count is a predictor of future

:48:38. > :48:42.mobility and mortality. Briefly, before I bring in our other

:48:43. > :48:44.guests, are you really suggesting that at some

:48:45. > :48:46.point in the future, human beings could be extinct

:48:47. > :48:49.as a result of the decline Frankly, that's

:48:50. > :48:54.a misquote of the media. I'm warning that we

:48:55. > :49:02.have now a problem, a clear problem, that

:49:03. > :49:04.was neglected so far. We have a problem of male fertility

:49:05. > :49:06.that is neglected, and this problem reflects

:49:07. > :49:23.a problem with men's health. OK. It needs to be started. Let me

:49:24. > :49:30.bring in Professor Allan pacey from Sheffield University. Is the logical

:49:31. > :49:36.conclusion from this study that if sperm keeps declining, then in the

:49:37. > :49:40.end human beings will be extinct? I guess at a very simplistic level

:49:41. > :49:47.that yes, if the decline is real and it continues to the same slope, then

:49:48. > :49:53.maybe one day men will run out of sperm. But I think that's a big leap

:49:54. > :49:56.at the moment and whilst I congratulate the doctor on this

:49:57. > :50:00.study, because I think it is really good, I think we need to be cautious

:50:01. > :50:05.about how we interpret it and what health messages we give out about

:50:06. > :50:09.adult men and pregnant women. How do you interpret it and what message do

:50:10. > :50:20.you want to give out? I've always been very sceptical about this. This

:50:21. > :50:24.study addresses many of my concerns about flaws in a previous study and

:50:25. > :50:29.some interest is piqued in whether or not we are actually seeing a real

:50:30. > :50:33.effect. If you were going to devise a study to answer the question as to

:50:34. > :50:38.whether sperm counts were declining, you wouldn't do it this way and it

:50:39. > :50:41.is, in fact, quite shameful that governments and research windows

:50:42. > :50:46.haven't put the money in to answer the question once and for all. They

:50:47. > :50:51.did in Denmark and the genera prospected study looking at every

:50:52. > :50:56.new 18-year-old military recruit over 15 to 20 years and they did not

:50:57. > :51:00.see a decline when they did that kind of prospective studies. Had we

:51:01. > :51:07.done that in many countries 20 years ago we would now know the answer for

:51:08. > :51:10.sure. So I think we still have to be cautious. I think men should not be

:51:11. > :51:14.alarmed this morning but I think it is a wake-up call. I think we need

:51:15. > :51:23.to invest more research effort into this question and really to get to

:51:24. > :51:27.the bottom of this. Let me bring in Richard, and he and his partner are

:51:28. > :51:32.going through IVF. Richard has been told he has a low sperm count. Good

:51:33. > :51:36.morning. How do you react to this study? I'm no medical professional

:51:37. > :51:40.but I'm not overly surprised, perhaps because I keep my ear to the

:51:41. > :51:44.ground for anything related to fertility issues, particularly male

:51:45. > :51:49.fertility issues, but I put a lot of work and effort into getting myself

:51:50. > :51:51.into is healthy position as possible, not because I'd seen

:51:52. > :51:56.categoric evidence being healthy was going to help my sperm but because

:51:57. > :52:01.of the more common sense that the healthier the position you are in,

:52:02. > :52:06.the more chance you are going to have of mitigating problems and, of

:52:07. > :52:10.course, if IVF treatment works, which it did for a second time

:52:11. > :52:17.around, it will not do the health of the baby any harm. And from low

:52:18. > :52:22.sperm count to older drivers! We have, outside the BBC. There is a

:52:23. > :52:26.story out today that suggests there are loads and loads and loads of

:52:27. > :52:32.drivers on Britain's roads over the age of 90. The figure has topped

:52:33. > :52:36.100,000 for the first time in this country, so obviously we are outside

:52:37. > :52:43.to talk to an older driver and he is called Colin Bradbury. He is 65 and

:52:44. > :52:51.is in this amazing car, which does not belong to us, despite the

:52:52. > :52:56.stickers on the side. He's on... He is a car with Jac Davies. I'm going

:52:57. > :53:02.to climb in. Hello, both of you. It is so nice to be here. My mother

:53:03. > :53:10.loves you! These convertibles are a bit tight. I love you, I think you

:53:11. > :53:17.are amazing. Shush! Hello, Colin. How are you? I am very well. You

:53:18. > :53:22.passed your test in 1952. Is that correct? Jack, you passed your test

:53:23. > :53:30.three weeks ago. Congratulations. So, the first of all, Colin, in that

:53:31. > :53:35.time, since 1952, any speeding fines, any misdemeanours? Yes, yes,

:53:36. > :53:41.yes, I've had three speeding convictions but the most recent one

:53:42. > :53:45.sent me on a speed awareness course, which led me to take an advanced

:53:46. > :53:50.driving test, so it has been a good thing. OK, let's talk a bit more

:53:51. > :53:56.about that. Also, I need to correct something. You've been driving for

:53:57. > :54:01.65 years, you are actually 84. I underestimated your age, but that's

:54:02. > :54:07.because you look so much younger! So, how did you find... Had you end

:54:08. > :54:16.up speeding a bit in that 50 mph zone? I just did. I hadn't noticed.

:54:17. > :54:19.I wasn't aware and I was not speeding badly, I was speeding and

:54:20. > :54:27.58, which is enough to get me convicted or sent on the speed

:54:28. > :54:31.awareness course. Which was useful? Very useful indeed. Colin, you've

:54:32. > :54:34.got all these decades' experience, including some things where it has

:54:35. > :54:39.gone wrong, which you have learned from. What would you say to Jack,

:54:40. > :54:43.who passed only three recent go? Well, I would say, firstly, you are

:54:44. > :54:47.at the beginning of a long road. I must sound like a boring old far but

:54:48. > :54:55.experience does count for quite a lot. But if you can do earlier run

:54:56. > :55:02.what I did more recently, and that is take driving more seriously, and

:55:03. > :55:09.I am talking... O, who has put the radio on? Oh, my gosh! The radio

:55:10. > :55:18.just came on automatically in this amazing convertible car! What was

:55:19. > :55:21.the question? Oh, don't worry about it! Jack, although you passed only

:55:22. > :55:26.three recent go, you have not been in a car yet, have you? Not yet. I

:55:27. > :55:30.wanted to have a look around first and see which was the right car and

:55:31. > :55:37.insurers for me, so I'm just having a look right now. Are you nervous,

:55:38. > :55:41.though? Er... A bit, in certain different ways, because I am new to

:55:42. > :55:44.all this, even though I have passed my test, everything is quite new to

:55:45. > :55:47.me, and there are different roads, because I learned in one specific

:55:48. > :55:51.Place, there are different roads that I will have to go down but I am

:55:52. > :55:56.all up for challenges and pushing myself to learn new things. What you

:55:57. > :56:01.think about the fact that there are now 100,000 people over 90 with a

:56:02. > :56:04.British driving licence? That is demographics, isn't it? I'm much

:56:05. > :56:11.more concerned about the fact that sometimes people think that age of

:56:12. > :56:16.itself makes one a worse driver. It can be, but it doesn't necessarily.

:56:17. > :56:23.In fact, the biggest danger on the road are really people in the age of

:56:24. > :56:26.17 to 24, as I was myself at that age. Sorry to interrupt it up you

:56:27. > :56:30.will know the people say, once you get over a certain age you should

:56:31. > :56:35.have to retake your driving test. I've done myself because I joined

:56:36. > :56:37.the Institute of Advanced Motorists and volunteered to take an advanced

:56:38. > :56:42.driving test it up Volunteering is one thing but people say it should

:56:43. > :56:48.be compulsory once you get over 65 or 70. I'm not sure about that. I

:56:49. > :56:57.would to take a loss of time to think about it. You are a young man.

:56:58. > :57:00.Sometimes young men when they pass their driving test don't have a

:57:01. > :57:05.great reputation when it comes to driving. Are you going to take it

:57:06. > :57:09.seriously? Yeah, definitely, because when you're driving, anything can

:57:10. > :57:16.happen and I kind of... Because a lot of 17 to 20-year-olds lose their

:57:17. > :57:19.lives because they are not reasonable on the roads, so I will

:57:20. > :57:24.definitely take it seriously. You've got to because you are going into

:57:25. > :57:29.the adult world so you need to take responsibility. OK. What do you

:57:30. > :57:34.think about petrol and Gisela cars being banned by 2040? I have seen

:57:35. > :57:43.that this morning. It won't concern me, of course! You never know, it is

:57:44. > :57:46.only 20 years awaited top It is hypothetical at the moment.

:57:47. > :57:53.Basically, it is a good idea. It is more likely to affect you, Jack.

:57:54. > :57:56.What do you think? Ooh! Exactly what you said, it depends on how it

:57:57. > :58:01.develops in the next few years so it might be good, it might be bad. You

:58:02. > :58:06.will end up, at one point, presumably, driving an electric car.

:58:07. > :58:12.It is good for the environment so I don't see why not. It will be good,

:58:13. > :58:16.definitely. Thank you both. Thank you, Colin. Sorry for getting your

:58:17. > :58:21.age from. Jack, lovely to meet you. Say hi to your mum, won't you?

:58:22. > :58:34.Have a good day. Back tomorrow at 9am.

:58:35. > :58:38.Madonna has launched her own range of booted orphans.