01/11/2017

0:00:06 > 0:00:09Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 9am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

0:00:09 > 0:00:12welcome to the programme.

0:00:12 > 0:00:16This morning, sexual harassment at work and how to stop it.

0:00:16 > 0:00:19Today we've brought together a group of women and men -

0:00:19 > 0:00:24most of whom have experienced sexual harassment at some

0:00:24 > 0:00:28point in their lives - and in some cases, repeatedly.

0:00:28 > 0:00:31Together we're going to talk about why and what needs to change.

0:00:31 > 0:00:36I'm Sarah Jane. I'm a TV presenter and actress and I think I've been

0:00:36 > 0:00:41sexually harassed up to 20 times. I'm Michelle. I'm a nurse. I have

0:00:41 > 0:00:44been a nurse for 30 years. I have been off work for two years

0:00:44 > 0:00:49following a sexual assault by a colleague.I'm Rebecca and when I

0:00:49 > 0:00:54worked as a waitress I was sexually harassed by my boss.I was sexually

0:00:54 > 0:00:58harassed by a high powered producer.

0:00:58 > 0:01:01Also on the programme, in an exclusive interview we hear

0:01:01 > 0:01:03a second claim that Kevin Spacey made sexual advance on another

0:01:03 > 0:01:06teenage boy in the 1980s.

0:01:06 > 0:01:09Kevin Spacey's representatives have yet to comment on the allegation.

0:01:09 > 0:01:13We'll bring you that full exclusive interview in around 15 minutes time.

0:01:13 > 0:01:15And, in New York, a man is in police custody

0:01:15 > 0:01:17after a terror attack killed eight people and injured

0:01:17 > 0:01:22about a dozen others.

0:01:22 > 0:01:30This was an act of terror. And a particularly cowardly act of terror

0:01:30 > 0:01:34aimed at innocent civilians, aimed at people going about their lives,

0:01:34 > 0:01:38with no idea what was about to hit them.

0:01:38 > 0:01:40We'll bring you the story throughout the programme.

0:02:00 > 0:02:02Hello, welcome to the programme. We're live until 11am.

0:02:02 > 0:02:04Plenty to come from this audience throughout the programme.

0:02:04 > 0:02:08And wherever you are in the UK, you can get in touch too

0:02:08 > 0:02:10with your experience of sexual harassment at work, and how

0:02:10 > 0:02:14you think it can be dealt with.

0:02:14 > 0:02:16Do get in touch - use the hashtag Victoria live.

0:02:16 > 0:02:21And if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

0:02:21 > 0:02:26You can message me on Facebook and send an e-mail as well.

0:02:26 > 0:02:27Our top story today.

0:02:27 > 0:02:30At least eight people have been killed and 11 seriously

0:02:30 > 0:02:32hurt in New York City, in what officials have

0:02:32 > 0:02:33described as a terror attack.

0:02:33 > 0:02:36Eyewitnesses saw a white pick-up truck driving at speed down a cycle

0:02:36 > 0:02:38path in Lower Manhattan, before it hit a number

0:02:38 > 0:02:44cyclists and pedestrians.

0:02:44 > 0:02:49The vehicle, continued for 20 blocks before it smashed into a school bus.

0:02:49 > 0:02:51A 29-year-old man was shot by police before being arrested

0:02:51 > 0:02:53and taken to hospital.

0:02:53 > 0:03:00Our New York reporter, Nada Tawfik, has more.

0:03:00 > 0:03:03This was the scene of the deadliest attack on New York since 9/11.

0:03:03 > 0:03:06Cyclists enjoying a beautiful autumn day, struck down by a white pick-up

0:03:06 > 0:03:08truck travelling at high-speed, leaving bodies and bicycles

0:03:08 > 0:03:10scattered in its wake.

0:03:10 > 0:03:13The driver's journey ends only when he smashes into a school bus

0:03:13 > 0:03:19and passers-by had to call for help for some of the injured.

0:03:19 > 0:03:22He can be seen here leaving the vehicle and brandishing

0:03:22 > 0:03:24a paintball ball and pellet gun before being shot by police.

0:03:24 > 0:03:26Eyewitnesses describe the panicked moments when they realise

0:03:26 > 0:03:33something was terribly wrong.

0:03:33 > 0:03:39He was running around like with a gun and so police came

0:03:39 > 0:03:42out and then people called the cops and so they were coming

0:03:42 > 0:03:45in and the guy fired a couple of shots before and then

0:03:45 > 0:03:48there was like a shoot-out scene like the police and the guy

0:03:48 > 0:03:50and that's when they started to close down everything

0:03:50 > 0:03:51and we had to go.

0:03:51 > 0:03:52He was screaming in the street.

0:03:52 > 0:03:55He looked frustrated, panicked and confused.

0:03:55 > 0:03:58From there, a whole bunch of customers started running

0:03:58 > 0:04:01past me, a whole bunch of people came running past my way

0:04:01 > 0:04:03yelling, "He's got a gun. He's got a gun."

0:04:03 > 0:04:05The full force of New York's emergency responders

0:04:05 > 0:04:06swarmed the area.

0:04:06 > 0:04:12ANNOUNCEMENT:Be advised, we have multiple people on the ground.

0:04:12 > 0:04:15There is multiple people on the ground.

0:04:15 > 0:04:21We need buses.

0:04:21 > 0:04:23Authorities believe this was an act of terror aimed

0:04:23 > 0:04:24at innocent civilians.

0:04:24 > 0:04:26They say a note in the suspect's vehicle referenced

0:04:26 > 0:04:30the so-called Islamic State.

0:04:30 > 0:04:37It's a very painful day in our city.

0:04:37 > 0:04:39A horrible tragedy on Westside.

0:04:39 > 0:04:42Let me be clear that based on the information that we have

0:04:42 > 0:04:44at this moment this was an act of terror and a particularly

0:04:44 > 0:04:45cowardly act of terror.

0:04:45 > 0:04:47The suspect has been identified as 29-year-old

0:04:47 > 0:04:51Sayfullo Saipov who came to the United States in 2010.

0:04:51 > 0:04:54He's said to have travelled to the East Coast from Florida

0:04:54 > 0:05:03and to have worked for the company Uber as a driver.

0:05:03 > 0:05:06President Trump has been briefed and in a series of tweets,

0:05:06 > 0:05:08he promised to crackdown further on those entering the country.

0:05:08 > 0:05:11Every day thousands of New Yorkers make their way down this bike path

0:05:11 > 0:05:14on their way to work and school and just blocks from the site

0:05:14 > 0:05:17of the World Trade Center, this attack in Lower Manhattan

0:05:17 > 0:05:19is a stark reminder that the city remains a target.

0:05:19 > 0:05:21This attack happened on one of the most festive

0:05:21 > 0:05:24days in the Big Apple, just as children prepare to go trick

0:05:24 > 0:05:27or treating and New Yorkers carried on with that tradition as normal

0:05:27 > 0:05:37with the annual Hallowe'en parade in a show of defiance and resilience.

0:05:41 > 0:05:47We will bring you more from man then later in the programme.

0:05:47 > 0:05:49Rachel is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

0:05:49 > 0:05:51of the rest of the day's news.

0:05:51 > 0:05:54The Prime Minister has referred the First Secretary of State,

0:05:54 > 0:05:56Damian Green, to the country's most senior civil servant,

0:05:56 > 0:05:59after he was accused of making sexual advances towards a female

0:05:59 > 0:06:00Conservative activist.

0:06:00 > 0:06:01The Prime Minister's deputy has strongly denied

0:06:01 > 0:06:03the allegation made by the writer, Kate Maltby, saying

0:06:03 > 0:06:05it was "deeply hurtful".

0:06:05 > 0:06:07The complaint is the latest in a string of sexual allegations

0:06:07 > 0:06:15concerning Westminster.

0:06:15 > 0:06:17This programme has exclusively been told of another sexual harassment

0:06:17 > 0:06:19claim against the actor Kevin Spacey.

0:06:19 > 0:06:22John - not his real name - claims that he rebutted sexual

0:06:22 > 0:06:24advances from Mr Spacey after meeting him at

0:06:24 > 0:06:28a summer theatre school when he was 17 in the 1980s.

0:06:28 > 0:06:34Earlier this week, Spacey apologised after being accused of making

0:06:34 > 0:06:38a sexual advance towards child actor Anthony Rapp, who was 14.

0:06:38 > 0:06:40We have approached Kevin Spacey's representatives for a comment,

0:06:40 > 0:06:43but have not yet received a response.

0:06:43 > 0:06:46Labour will try to force the Government to disclose

0:06:46 > 0:06:52the likely impact of Brexit on different sectors of the economy.

0:06:52 > 0:06:54The Government has confirmed that 58 reports looking at different sectors

0:06:54 > 0:06:55of the economy have been prepared.

0:06:55 > 0:06:58But it is resisting calls to publish them, saying to do

0:06:58 > 0:07:00so would undermine the UK's negotiating position

0:07:00 > 0:07:05in Brexit talks.

0:07:05 > 0:07:07A government commissioned report will be published today,

0:07:07 > 0:07:10which aims to identify what lessons can be learnt from the

0:07:10 > 0:07:13experiences of families of the Hillsborough disaster.

0:07:13 > 0:07:17It will include the conduct of past police investigations and look at

0:07:17 > 0:07:21the families engagement with public authorities over the last 28 years.

0:07:21 > 0:07:26Written by the former Bishop of Liverpool, James Jones, it is intend

0:07:26 > 0:07:31to help the authorities respond to future disasters.

0:07:31 > 0:07:33The restored Hastings Pier in Sussex, which was devastated

0:07:33 > 0:07:36by fire seven years ago, has won Britain's most

0:07:36 > 0:07:40prestigious architecture award, the Stirling Prize.

0:07:40 > 0:07:42The judges said it was a "phoenix risen from the ashes".

0:07:42 > 0:07:45The new structure uses timber reclaimed from the original

0:07:45 > 0:07:49Victorian pier and scorched wood cladding on its visitors centre.

0:07:51 > 0:07:53Now, if you're a fan of the Great British Bake Off

0:07:53 > 0:07:56but haven't yet seen the final, you might want to look

0:07:56 > 0:07:59away for a minute.

0:07:59 > 0:08:03Last night saw the three finalists do battle with a fiendishly

0:08:03 > 0:08:05complicated set of tasks before Sophie Faldo, a former Army officer,

0:08:05 > 0:08:06emerged as the winner.

0:08:06 > 0:08:12It was meant to be one of television's most closely guarded

0:08:12 > 0:08:15secrets, but new judge Prue Leith, mistakenly tweeted the result

0:08:15 > 0:08:20earlier in the day after mixing up her times zones while travelling.

0:08:21 > 0:08:26That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am.

0:08:26 > 0:08:32Thank you very much. In the next few minutes we are going

0:08:32 > 0:08:35to talk to a group of people that we have brought together from all walks

0:08:35 > 0:08:40of life, from the NHS, the education sector, the entertainment world,

0:08:40 > 0:08:44from politics, to talk about one of the big issues that is making the

0:08:44 > 0:08:49headlines on a daily basis, sexual harassment and in particular at work

0:08:49 > 0:08:53and we appreciate there is a huge spectrum when it comes to sexual

0:08:53 > 0:08:58harassment from hands on a knee, at one end, to being discouraged from

0:08:58 > 0:09:02reporting a rape at the other end. We're going to talk about people's

0:09:02 > 0:09:05individual experiences. We're going to talk about what should be done

0:09:05 > 0:09:09and we're going to talk about whether some feel there is now a

0:09:09 > 0:09:13witch-hunt against certain sectors. Your own experiences are welcome. As

0:09:13 > 0:09:18you know on this programme, wherever you are in the country, send us your

0:09:18 > 0:09:22own thoughts and your own pertinent experiences and we will feed them in

0:09:22 > 0:09:28through the conversation through this morning's programme.

0:09:28 > 0:09:31Let's get some sport now with Holly and Chelsea have become the first

0:09:31 > 0:09:33English side to lose a Champions League match this season

0:09:33 > 0:09:36- manager Antonio Conte isn't too happy is he?

0:09:36 > 0:09:39They are not happy. It was more of a fright night for Chelsea and

0:09:39 > 0:09:45probably not the home coming that Antonio Conte envisaged last night,

0:09:45 > 0:09:50losing 3-0 to Roma in what can only be described as a shambolic

0:09:50 > 0:09:54defensive performance. They went behind in less than 40 seconds after

0:09:54 > 0:09:58this stunning strike. After that, Victoria, it just went from bad to

0:09:58 > 0:10:04worse. Afterwards Conte had strong words for his players. He said they

0:10:04 > 0:10:07need to find the hunger from last season and dig deep and he just

0:10:07 > 0:10:11seemed to be at a loss as to what went wrong particularly in the

0:10:11 > 0:10:15second half which was particularly poor for Chelsea in what was their

0:10:15 > 0:10:18worst defeat in more than a year. Here is what the manager had to say

0:10:18 > 0:10:29afterwards.There is a great disappointment because it was really

0:10:29 > 0:10:43bad. Really bad for a team like us. I know last season we showed a great

0:10:43 > 0:10:47hunger, a great will to do something of importance.

0:10:47 > 0:10:50There was a better result for Manchester United. They're edging

0:10:50 > 0:10:55closer to remaining in the last 16 with their win last night. 2-1 at

0:10:55 > 0:10:58Old Trafford against Benfica. Celtic, it is over for them. They

0:10:58 > 0:11:02lost 2-1 to Bayern Munich, but more to come this evening. Tottenham and

0:11:02 > 0:11:07Liverpool both in action later on. We were talking on the programme

0:11:07 > 0:11:13about the Parliamentary hearing into classification in Paralympic sport

0:11:13 > 0:11:17and Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson had some strong words?That's right. She

0:11:17 > 0:11:20told the Parliamentary committee that athletes were told they would

0:11:20 > 0:11:25be kicked off teams and stripped of funding this they complained about

0:11:25 > 0:11:28this ongoing classification issue and she is calling for an

0:11:28 > 0:11:32independent review into this system after saying the culture was

0:11:32 > 0:11:35somewhere between control and bullying and those are pretty harsh

0:11:35 > 0:11:42words. Let's hear from her.Great Britain should be the gold standard

0:11:42 > 0:11:46of integrity and independence and we should have an open discussion about

0:11:46 > 0:11:50IM and about misclassification, but actually, where we are now, in the

0:11:50 > 0:11:55Paralympic movement, it's medals, it's money, it's sponsorship and

0:11:55 > 0:12:00it's media coverage, it's, as Liz was talking about doping in Olympic

0:12:00 > 0:12:05sport, it would be the same reason. So you think it is the equivalent?

0:12:05 > 0:12:09Not quite, but there are similarities in terms of what it can

0:12:09 > 0:12:13give you. Harsh words. Yesterday, we also

0:12:13 > 0:12:17heard from Mike ale Breen. He is the father of the two-time world

0:12:17 > 0:12:20champion Olivia braOvenlt he said he didn't hold back, athletes were

0:12:20 > 0:12:24actually frightened and they had been intame dated over many years

0:12:24 > 0:12:29and suggested that Sophie, a Gold Medallist will been allowed to

0:12:29 > 0:12:32allowed to compete in the wrong category. Her management responded

0:12:32 > 0:12:36and rejected the claims and she said she would welcome the opportunity to

0:12:36 > 0:12:39give evidence to the committee at any point. But I think Victoria,

0:12:39 > 0:12:43this is an issue that's going to continue. Certainly, over the next

0:12:43 > 0:12:51week, maybe perhaps even months, as the issue of classification in para

0:12:51 > 0:12:55disability sport continues.Thank you, Holly.

0:12:55 > 0:12:57This morning, sexual harassment in Hollywood,

0:12:57 > 0:13:02in politics, in banks, in the Armed Forces,

0:13:02 > 0:13:04in hospitals, in offices, in restaurants, in journalism,

0:13:04 > 0:13:07in your place of work.

0:13:07 > 0:13:11No walk of life is unaffected by it and this morning, we're joined

0:13:11 > 0:13:14by a group of men and women who are here to talk

0:13:14 > 0:13:20about its impact and ultimately how it can be stopped.

0:13:20 > 0:13:23Pretty much everyone here in the audience say they have

0:13:23 > 0:13:32been sexually harassed at work.

0:13:32 > 0:13:37We will discuss good practise to stop it happen. I'm going to start

0:13:37 > 0:13:40with Becca. Thank you very much for talking to us today. Tell us what

0:13:40 > 0:13:44happened to you when you used to work as a waitress?I was working as

0:13:44 > 0:13:50a waitress and bartender. It was zero hours contract job, minimum

0:13:50 > 0:13:54wage and over a period of months I was kind of sexually harassed by one

0:13:54 > 0:14:01of my manager's...What is that like?Calling me sexually derogatory

0:14:01 > 0:14:05name, slapping my bum. It culminated at one point where he took me into a

0:14:05 > 0:14:09private room where the managers did their admin work and said, "This is

0:14:09 > 0:14:15the room where we have sex with our employees."Wow.And the whole

0:14:15 > 0:14:20thing, the whole kind of experience had this tone of like, it's a joke

0:14:20 > 0:14:27until it's not. It was done in this kind of jovial way. I, after that,

0:14:27 > 0:14:31incident in that room, I threatened to report him for sexual harassment

0:14:31 > 0:14:36and it was after this point that he turned really sour with me and then

0:14:36 > 0:14:41was kind of like nit-picking everything I did wrong and fired me

0:14:41 > 0:14:44for something which I don't think my colleagues would have been fired

0:14:44 > 0:14:46for. And what do you think about what

0:14:46 > 0:14:51happened to you?I mean I think it was wrong. I was quite young at the

0:14:51 > 0:14:56time as well. I was 18, 19 years old and I was really unsure about what

0:14:56 > 0:15:00steps I could take. I made that threat of I'm going to report you,

0:15:00 > 0:15:06but I didn't actually know...No, you knew it was sexual harassment?I

0:15:06 > 0:15:10knew it was sexual harassment and I knew that the mechanism for

0:15:10 > 0:15:14reporting this existed, but I didn't know how. I wasn't part of a union.

0:15:14 > 0:15:17I was talking to co-workers about it, but it was seen as something

0:15:17 > 0:15:24that was normal, like that's just him. That's how he is.Wow.And I

0:15:24 > 0:15:29guess, I think like, looking back on the experience now, I think, as you

0:15:29 > 0:15:35said earlier, that it's just something which is so horrifically

0:15:35 > 0:15:38mundane and common that you find it in all kinds of industries and as

0:15:38 > 0:15:42much it was an upsetting experience, particularly then kind of being

0:15:42 > 0:15:46hounded and fired as a result of trying to stand up for myself, I do

0:15:46 > 0:15:50think it is something which is so incredibly upsettingly common.And

0:15:50 > 0:15:56grim.

0:15:56 > 0:16:00You said at the beginning of our problem that over your career as a

0:16:00 > 0:16:06TV children's presenter and actress you have been harassed at least 20

0:16:06 > 0:16:15times?At least 20 times, yes. Different degrees. As a performer

0:16:15 > 0:16:19you accept it. You find a way of coping it. I would find humour in

0:16:19 > 0:16:25it. I did a blog last year about one incident where I made a comedy tale,

0:16:25 > 0:16:30even though the producer lost his trousers in the Hotel room, somehow!

0:16:30 > 0:16:36He wanted me to cover him in water. I kind of made light of it. Some of

0:16:36 > 0:16:43the incidents, one of -- one in particular was quite scary. A

0:16:43 > 0:16:50well-known and powerful TV personality said he would help me.

0:16:50 > 0:16:57With your career?Yes. He would help me to jump from kids' TV to

0:16:57 > 0:17:03presenting, which was what I wanted to do. I said, great. He said, let's

0:17:03 > 0:17:07meet up. He said, in a hotel. I said, no thank you, I've already

0:17:07 > 0:17:11seen somebody lose their trousers in a Hotel. He said, how dare you

0:17:11 > 0:17:20suggest that I would do that! Then I thought, how dare I indeed? I'm

0:17:20 > 0:17:25really naughty to presume that somebody... To presume that somebody

0:17:25 > 0:17:32would want to make sexual advances to me. I'm fourth at 11, I look like

0:17:32 > 0:17:36a chipmunk, who might? He eventually persuaded me to meet him in a hotel.

0:17:36 > 0:17:41I said I wanted to talk in the four. He said, people are looking at us,

0:17:41 > 0:17:47let's go to the room. I had a partner the time. Not my husband

0:17:47 > 0:17:52now, somebody else. I said, I don't want any funny business. I'll sit on

0:17:52 > 0:17:56a chair, I don't want you near me. And if we talk about anything else

0:17:56 > 0:18:01other than my career, I'm leaving. Went in the room, we chatted, he

0:18:01 > 0:18:06seemed nice, he was helpful. I was like, oh my goodness, this is

0:18:06 > 0:18:11perhaps the first time... I have been on 50 dinner date with people

0:18:11 > 0:18:17and it has never culminated in a job. And I thought, this person is

0:18:17 > 0:18:22genuine. I said, I have to go. Thank you so much. It's been lovely to

0:18:22 > 0:18:28meet you. Stood up. He said to me, you are really small. I was like, I

0:18:28 > 0:18:33know, I'm fourth at 11. He said, how much do you wait? He said, six

0:18:33 > 0:18:40double 11. He didn't believe me. With that he picked me up. Lots of

0:18:40 > 0:18:48people take me up because I'm small. That is rather dispiriting.Lots of

0:18:48 > 0:18:52people do. He picked me up. I thought, here we go. He was very

0:18:52 > 0:18:58tall. Not only did he pick me up he rammed me into the wall and kissed

0:18:58 > 0:19:05me very passionately. Now, I am working class and I was a gymnast.

0:19:05 > 0:19:14I'm feisty. I pushed him off me and jumped down. I said, if you touch me

0:19:14 > 0:19:18again I will scream and scream and scream. He literally just laughed in

0:19:18 > 0:19:34my face and said, something has grown between ice -- us. I left.

0:19:34 > 0:19:39They need textured me and I said, I don't want to meet you again, thank

0:19:39 > 0:19:47you. I got a barrage of abuse. He was never going to help me. But I do

0:19:47 > 0:19:51think sometimes, would I have had a better career if I had been not such

0:19:51 > 0:19:58a square girl in the bedroom? I'm sure I wouldn't. But I think in show

0:19:58 > 0:20:02business you can't help but think that. That is not just the girls, it

0:20:02 > 0:20:06is men as well.As a performer you are groomed to expect that. That is

0:20:06 > 0:20:13orderly dispiriting. Aaron, you come from the modelling world. You

0:20:13 > 0:20:21haven't experienced a share.I was with a casting director. He invited

0:20:21 > 0:20:26me to a location for a pirate shoot. -- pilot should. He didn't tell me

0:20:26 > 0:20:31it was his house. I ended up going to his house. He put all this glue

0:20:31 > 0:20:43on me. Took my tough off. -- top. He said, it looks like his semen. At

0:20:43 > 0:20:46that was a bit weird. But I'm a strong character. It doesn't bother

0:20:46 > 0:20:53me much. I saw that went to get a shower at his. I came out after and

0:20:53 > 0:20:57he said, there was a camera in there. You can touch yourself if you

0:20:57 > 0:21:06want. You can go back in there and touch yourself. I was like, no. At

0:21:06 > 0:21:13events and stuff, I've had my Bohm slapped. I'm a big man. I could

0:21:13 > 0:21:19easily just... But I'm not going to do that. Because you can't do that.

0:21:19 > 0:21:27It happens quite often. Obviously now he has realised. It's mainly

0:21:27 > 0:21:31when he's drunk. He thinks because I am a model and he is a casting

0:21:31 > 0:21:38director... Certain jobs I feel I can't get because of that. Obviously

0:21:38 > 0:21:42he doesn't want me to do that. I won't do that. Certain jobs I

0:21:42 > 0:21:46haven't got because of that. It's kind of a shame but I will always do

0:21:46 > 0:21:55the right thing.Thank you. Rebecca, good morning. Tell me about your

0:21:55 > 0:22:03experience in the RAF?When I was 20 I was attached -- detached to the

0:22:03 > 0:22:07Falkland Islands as an aerospace systems operator. I was a senior

0:22:07 > 0:22:11aircraft woman at the time. As part of the detachment I had to go to a

0:22:11 > 0:22:18mountainside where I was the only woman among 28 mixed servicemen. I

0:22:18 > 0:22:25flew in by helicopter. There were 28 guys mooning me in on the helipad.

0:22:25 > 0:22:32And it kind of went downhill from there. That kind of set the tone.

0:22:32 > 0:22:38The first night I was subjected to an initiation ceremony. My camera

0:22:38 > 0:22:42was on the bar at the time and somebody took photographs. When I

0:22:42 > 0:22:46came home from the detachment and printed my photographs, I actually

0:22:46 > 0:22:53have those pictures.Can I ask what they showed?The guys were naked

0:22:53 > 0:22:58wearing nothing but rubber gloves on their genitals. I was fully closed.

0:22:58 > 0:23:03This is kind of a regular thing that I had heard about. And in advance of

0:23:03 > 0:23:07the detachment I had kind of expressed my resistance to going up

0:23:07 > 0:23:12there. I think that we should be able to, whatever gender you are,

0:23:12 > 0:23:18you should be able to work wherever. But I didn't feel confident that

0:23:18 > 0:23:21there were structures in place to enable that to happen. I felt very

0:23:21 > 0:23:29vulnerable. I made a complaint to an officer.About what?About my

0:23:29 > 0:23:34vulnerability, about the initiation ceremony, but the fact that every

0:23:34 > 0:23:36single night there were guys knocking on the door trying to come

0:23:36 > 0:23:42into my bedroom. Just continual harassment. I knew there was

0:23:42 > 0:23:48something wrong but I wasn't able to articulate it. And they flew the

0:23:48 > 0:23:56officer to the mountain site and he had a meeting with me in my bedroom.

0:23:56 > 0:24:07And he silenced me by offering me a flight on a tornado.My gosh.Yeah.

0:24:07 > 0:24:15How did you react?I took the flight. And to be kind to my younger

0:24:15 > 0:24:22self, it's taken me 15 years to talk about this... I think everyone that

0:24:22 > 0:24:26is here, well done. It takes a lot to speak about anything that has

0:24:26 > 0:24:32happened to you, any form of violation. At the time I just want

0:24:32 > 0:24:38to come home.I have a statement from the RAF. The RAF doesn't

0:24:38 > 0:24:44tolerate any form of abuse. Appropriate disciplinary action will

0:24:44 > 0:24:49be taken. There have been significant enhancements to the

0:24:49 > 0:24:52complaints process in the 15 years since these alleged incidents,

0:24:52 > 0:24:56including the appointment of the first independent service complaints

0:24:56 > 0:25:00ombudsman who took office in January of last year.

0:25:00 > 0:25:03The point that Rebecca raised, it takes a lot to speak out about these

0:25:03 > 0:25:11kind of incidents. Do people agree? Is it hard? If it is, why?I

0:25:11 > 0:25:14personally think I will never work again after today. I don't work that

0:25:14 > 0:25:21much any way. You look like a troublemaker.Player, do introduce

0:25:21 > 0:25:28yourself.I'm the director of the Institute of ideas. I wanted to put

0:25:28 > 0:25:36a different impression on this. I could list all of the abuse of

0:25:36 > 0:25:41things that happened to me. But I actually feel it's a real tyranny. I

0:25:41 > 0:25:49feel as if society has turned into a Jeremy Kyle show. I actually think

0:25:49 > 0:25:56it's actually hard to argue against the me, two phenomena. And to

0:25:56 > 0:25:58suggest that we need rather than summoning testimonies, we need a

0:25:58 > 0:26:04rational call standing back from this issue. I know that when I have

0:26:04 > 0:26:11said this before, I have been accused of victim blaming,

0:26:11 > 0:26:18condemning people... Obviously people have terrible stories. But to

0:26:18 > 0:26:23understand the phenomenon, sometimes getting people to tell their stories

0:26:23 > 0:26:27is not the best way to approach something politically or as a way of

0:26:27 > 0:26:31coming up with the right policies. It is a genuine, ironically, there

0:26:31 > 0:26:37is a genuine bullying atmosphere to join in the feeding frenzy. And I

0:26:37 > 0:26:45get nervous about that.OK. Sarah Champion, hello.I'm Sarah Champion,

0:26:45 > 0:26:48a member of Parliament for Rotherham. I am listening to this. I

0:26:48 > 0:26:54know that sex sells. The country is titillated by this. But listening to

0:26:54 > 0:26:59these stories, this isn't about sex, this is about power. It is about

0:26:59 > 0:27:02people in positions of power who can degrade other people. Yes, they do

0:27:02 > 0:27:09it through sex. But I agree with what you are saying, we need to look

0:27:09 > 0:27:11at the bigger picture and how we get away from a culture where these

0:27:11 > 0:27:20people can act without any repercussions. Both SJ and you were

0:27:20 > 0:27:25almost apologising for how it is going to affect your career.What do

0:27:25 > 0:27:30you think about Claire's specific point about a feeding frenzy, but

0:27:30 > 0:27:34people being incited to tell their story and that the tracks from

0:27:34 > 0:27:38having a rational conversation?One of the things I'm particularly

0:27:38 > 0:27:42uncomfortable about at the moment with Westminster is there seems to

0:27:42 > 0:27:47be the emphasis that it is the victim's responsibility to come

0:27:47 > 0:27:52forward. It is not. They are the victims. We should be creating a

0:27:52 > 0:27:56culture, stepping back, change the systems we have in place. Let's try

0:27:56 > 0:28:01as a country to grow up a bid and stopping obsessed with what is in

0:28:01 > 0:28:08people's pants and what to do with it.And let's look at duty of care

0:28:08 > 0:28:15in institutions. I Amanda Whelan, the assistant ODIs

0:28:15 > 0:28:23of Spike. What worries me about this, and I share the concerns

0:28:23 > 0:28:28Claire has, with the greatest respect to people and their

0:28:28 > 0:28:31experiences, what we are in danger of in creating a feeding frenzy, you

0:28:31 > 0:28:36get a kind of moral authority when you present your anecdotal

0:28:36 > 0:28:44experiences. This campaign is doing that. We are in danger of

0:28:44 > 0:28:49denigrating women's power. You say the victims don't need to give their

0:28:49 > 0:28:53story. I'm afraid you do need to give your story, if you are going to

0:28:53 > 0:28:57make an accusation, because that is how justice works. Innocent until

0:28:57 > 0:29:02proven guilty. We are in danger of forgetting that. In forgetting that

0:29:02 > 0:29:06and calling mainly women victims is creating a victim culture and taking

0:29:06 > 0:29:11away women's power. That really worries me.There are many different

0:29:11 > 0:29:17forms of abuse. It is quite rare that women want justice in the form

0:29:17 > 0:29:21of someone going to jail, someone losing their job. What they want is

0:29:21 > 0:29:25a change in the culture and to be recognised. You don't need to name

0:29:25 > 0:29:29yourself in public to do that. You need a situation where there is an

0:29:29 > 0:29:35independent body that will listen to you.OK. What we are talking about

0:29:35 > 0:29:37here is the difference between sexual harassment and sexual

0:29:37 > 0:29:43assault. And sexual violence, which is serious, a crime. And

0:29:43 > 0:29:47inappropriate behaviour, which whilst it can be extremely negative,

0:29:47 > 0:29:50it is something for people to work themselves without involvement of

0:29:50 > 0:29:56criminalisation.On Facebook Holderness says, let -- can we be

0:29:56 > 0:30:02clear that not all unwanted attention is harassment. Dog is

0:30:02 > 0:30:05confused. A proposition accepted is fine, but a proposition rejected as

0:30:05 > 0:30:13harassment.That really highlighted. We are in danger of denigrating

0:30:13 > 0:30:21human interaction. It is not not sensible to say that lots of

0:30:21 > 0:30:26relationships start with a risk. That is not saying that every woman

0:30:26 > 0:30:29and man knows when a line has been crossed. When it is sexual

0:30:29 > 0:30:41harassment is more serious.I work in the hospitality industry. The

0:30:41 > 0:30:43hospitality industry is similar to the creative industries in that it

0:30:43 > 0:30:48has similar conditions, the same level of precariousness, zero hours

0:30:48 > 0:31:07contracts.

0:31:07 > 0:31:11I think we really need to focus on and think about the culture that

0:31:11 > 0:31:16exists and all the mechanisms that actually prevent women from speaking

0:31:16 > 0:31:23up and for when women do speak up, for any grievance to not actually be

0:31:23 > 0:31:29upheld and I think, you know, I think things like zero hour

0:31:29 > 0:31:34contracts, things like freelance work, and things like, power, right.

0:31:34 > 0:31:38So not having any, just being desperate to advance your career,

0:31:38 > 0:31:43having to...And the precarious nature of some work and some jobs in

0:31:43 > 0:31:55some sectors?I would like us to have serious political discussions

0:31:55 > 0:31:59about zero-hours contracts and once you gender it and put it into a

0:31:59 > 0:32:02discussion about sexual harassmed and women as victims, you aren't

0:32:02 > 0:32:07talking about the gig economy, you are talking about women.They are

0:32:07 > 0:32:11not mutually exclusive.They are a distraction. There are serious

0:32:11 > 0:32:16issues. In which case if you are a victim in the gig economy it has

0:32:16 > 0:32:24nothing to do with you being a woman.JaouWork without contracts,

0:32:24 > 0:32:28work out guaranteed hours, it is majority women. It is an incredibly

0:32:28 > 0:32:34gender issue.I suppose, it is just a question, I suppose, my concern

0:32:34 > 0:32:39is, on the one hand the danger of trivialising serious sexual assault

0:32:39 > 0:32:43in a kind of everything is thrown into the same pot. On the other

0:32:43 > 0:32:47hand, distracting from what are serious power issues relating to

0:32:47 > 0:32:52jobs and employment conditions. Thirdly, in the midst of this,

0:32:52 > 0:32:59although people here are consciously not naming and shaming as in the

0:32:59 > 0:33:02naming, there is a nervousness about a culture in which we are pointing

0:33:02 > 0:33:06the finger and people's careers are being destroyed. People are being

0:33:06 > 0:33:15named and that's nerve-wracking and no justice.John Mann is one of the

0:33:15 > 0:33:20few men in this room. Are you nervously awaiting some allegation

0:33:20 > 0:33:25to be made against you?No. The differentiation between misuse of

0:33:25 > 0:33:31power and the examples we're hearing that have blighted people's lives.

0:33:31 > 0:33:39Their career is not gone or their job has not gone as well or far

0:33:39 > 0:33:43worse, the problem amongst my constituents who I am aware of are

0:33:43 > 0:33:47mainly women, usually women, who have been sexually assaulted, raped,

0:33:47 > 0:33:55who haven't come forward. Who are severely traumatised by it. It often

0:33:55 > 0:33:58had disastrous horrific consequences for them and their lives. There is a

0:33:58 > 0:34:02lot of women out there like that. There is an epidemic going on

0:34:02 > 0:34:08amongst young women where young men, I think, the boundaries have

0:34:08 > 0:34:13lessened and young men feel that there is a sense of entitlement and

0:34:13 > 0:34:18I am...Not just young men.There is a particular, there is a particular,

0:34:18 > 0:34:24there is a change of culture. I'm genuinely shocked by the number of

0:34:24 > 0:34:28young women that I am aware of, who have been raped.

0:34:28 > 0:34:34Genuinely shocked. And the and haven't said anything. They haven't

0:34:34 > 0:34:38spoken to their parents. They haven't spoken to the police

0:34:38 > 0:34:43obviously. They haven't done anything in relation to it and

0:34:43 > 0:34:47people are fearful of doing so. And what do we as a society do about

0:34:47 > 0:34:56that? And that's why, these, what I'm hearing isn't trivial cases, an

0:34:56 > 0:35:01employer, who hits on their employee, let me use a vendac collar

0:35:01 > 0:35:07term and then pursues and harasses them. That's not a light issue. And

0:35:07 > 0:35:12so, you know, I have been banging on about this in Parliament for quite

0:35:12 > 0:35:16some years. We are at the top of the pyramid in terms of what people look

0:35:16 > 0:35:20at and if MPs behave like that then we don't want those people, I don't

0:35:20 > 0:35:26want those people as MPs.I want to ask you about the story that emerged

0:35:26 > 0:35:31today involving a writer, and academic called Kate Maltby writing

0:35:31 > 0:35:34in the Times today about Damian Green who is a Conservative MP and

0:35:34 > 0:35:38described as the First Secretary of State. That's his job, he is

0:35:38 > 0:35:42effectively Theresa May's right-hand, or deputy, if you like.

0:35:42 > 0:35:46Kate Maltby writes, "Damian Green offered me career advice and in the

0:35:46 > 0:35:55same breath made it clear he was sexually interested." ." She says he

0:35:55 > 0:35:58told her his wife was very understanding. Kate Maltby said that

0:35:58 > 0:36:02experience made her angry. Damian Green said the claims are untrue and

0:36:02 > 0:36:07deeply hurtful. Kate Maltby says that effectively he touched her

0:36:07 > 0:36:13knee. Fleetingly, she uses that word fleetingly and then sometime after,

0:36:13 > 0:36:20sent a suggestive text to her. Is that harassment?It is a

0:36:20 > 0:36:23fundamental misuse of power. This man is number two in the country. He

0:36:23 > 0:36:30is Deputy Prime Minister. He is a very senior politician and if he

0:36:30 > 0:36:34wants to go try and have some ex-martial relationship with

0:36:34 > 0:36:38someone, that's not our business. Well he says...That's not our

0:36:38 > 0:36:42business at all, but if he did, and that seems to be what she is

0:36:42 > 0:36:47suggesting he was doing then that's not our business. However, if that's

0:36:47 > 0:36:51connected in with careers advice, when he is a person who can assist

0:36:51 > 0:36:56and give that advice and help and he is, like I would be in that

0:36:56 > 0:37:01situation, if someone said, "How can I become a Labour MP? Will you give

0:37:01 > 0:37:05me advice?" I get young woman who come and ask that. I give them

0:37:05 > 0:37:11advice. If I was to make that kind of proposal to them in any way,

0:37:11 > 0:37:16that's a fundamental misuse of power.Does anyone disagree on that

0:37:16 > 0:37:20point about Damian Green and the differing accounts of what happened?

0:37:20 > 0:37:25Absolutely. This is bordering on the insane. We have got somebody who

0:37:25 > 0:37:29sent a text and fleetingly touched someone's knee which isn't a matter

0:37:29 > 0:37:32of, it has got nothing do with his role as an MP. He gave careers

0:37:32 > 0:37:37advice. So if he was pinning her and said, "If you don't do this, you

0:37:37 > 0:37:41will get fired." That would be a different matter. This is an

0:37:41 > 0:37:47uncomfortable personal interaction which has been used to get a part of

0:37:47 > 0:37:55the Me Two campaign. I'm perturbed. It is a personal affair. What we are

0:37:55 > 0:38:00doing here is saying, women can't handle having texts sent to them. I

0:38:00 > 0:38:06find that more insulting than anything a pervy old bloke would

0:38:06 > 0:38:14say.You have no idea whatsoever if she can handle.We are in danger of

0:38:14 > 0:38:17saying every time a woman has an experience like this, she is

0:38:17 > 0:38:26tainted, it will affect her forever. You are undermining women's ability

0:38:26 > 0:38:31to be hard necked. It formed most of the feminist movements in the past

0:38:31 > 0:38:34that women were tough and strong. For her to come forward, there is a

0:38:34 > 0:38:40lot at stake and it is exactly these stories which show how ingrained

0:38:40 > 0:38:46this issue is at.What's at stake?I don't want to talk about Kate

0:38:46 > 0:38:51Maltby.To speak out about harassment...I'm going to pause you

0:38:51 > 0:38:55because Damian Green has been spoken to by reporters. Let's have a

0:38:55 > 0:39:02listen. Have a watch. REPORTER: Is that Downing Street

0:39:02 > 0:39:07investigate you? All the allegations are completely

0:39:07 > 0:39:10false. Thank you very much. REPORTER: Do you regret your

0:39:10 > 0:39:19behaviour, Mr Green? STUDIO: He repeated, "All the

0:39:19 > 0:39:24allegations are completely false." Rebecca, just finish your point.

0:39:24 > 0:39:28This is exactly there, is so indicative of the problem in society

0:39:28 > 0:39:33and I think as a nation, we need to hold up anybody that speaks out

0:39:33 > 0:39:37because that is what makes it a safer place for those women who have

0:39:37 > 0:39:43been raped or...We don't know it's true. That's crucial.Why would

0:39:43 > 0:39:47somebody in her position start a rumour?Why would anyone do

0:39:47 > 0:39:52anything?Once we say that you can be accused, based on a rumour, this

0:39:52 > 0:39:57is not a powerless woman, she has got a column this the Times. We are

0:39:57 > 0:40:04not talking about some kid, she therefore, she points the finger and

0:40:04 > 0:40:08then I'm supposed to or we're supposed to believe her. Why do we

0:40:08 > 0:40:14not believe him? He denies it. We have to believe her. That's

0:40:14 > 0:40:18nerve-wracking, but some people here have told serious horrible stories

0:40:18 > 0:40:22of sexual harassment and one of my concerns is that then when we kind

0:40:22 > 0:40:29of getting the glancing hand on the knee question, or the text, that

0:40:29 > 0:40:38that actually trivialises those serious stories. When people say,

0:40:38 > 0:40:43you know, knee, crotch, rape, we are going to make those important claims

0:40:43 > 0:40:47of one individual, abusing another individual which should be dealt

0:40:47 > 0:40:52with and the book thrown at them turn into and everyone is at it

0:40:52 > 0:40:56because somebody flirts with you inappropriately. It is very, very

0:40:56 > 0:41:00dangerous.Damian Green denies the allegation. He says they are deeply

0:41:00 > 0:41:05hurtful. What is sexual harassment. It seems to be key to this

0:41:05 > 0:41:10conversation? It is straightforward actually, have a watch of this.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18Sexual harassment can be verbal, written or visual contact.

0:41:18 > 0:41:21It may include a request for a sexual favour.

0:41:21 > 0:41:23It is unsolicited and unwelcome.

0:41:23 > 0:41:27Harassment can include sexual comments and jokes.

0:41:27 > 0:41:32It can also be being forced to look at inappropriate material.

0:41:32 > 0:41:35Harassment can also be when someone creates a hostile

0:41:35 > 0:41:37or intimidating environment.

0:41:37 > 0:41:40Harassment can happen to anyone, and it can be done by anyone.

0:41:40 > 0:41:45If you are being harassed at work, you should report it.

0:41:45 > 0:41:50Make sure you put everything in writing.

0:41:50 > 0:41:53Try to collect as much evidence as you can.

0:41:53 > 0:42:01Collect evidence by keeping texts, e-mails and messages.

0:42:02 > 0:42:07Raise your concerns with your employer.

0:42:07 > 0:42:09If you feel like you're not being treated properly,

0:42:09 > 0:42:13you can contact services like Citizens Advice.

0:42:13 > 0:42:15There is also information on the BBC's Action Line website.

0:42:15 > 0:42:25Search BBC, Action Line.

0:42:35 > 0:42:39What did you want to say about it?I think a lot of people forget that it

0:42:39 > 0:42:43happens to guys. Especially in the fashion industry. There is so much

0:42:43 > 0:42:47of much power in casting directors and designers and they have got so

0:42:47 > 0:42:51much money, they almost feel like, for my case as well, people will

0:42:51 > 0:42:56throw money and say, "Look, if you take this money, I will give you

0:42:56 > 0:43:01this job." It happens all the time and I know serious stories and I

0:43:01 > 0:43:11can't say it on TV. It is a serious industry. Very corrupt.Male actors

0:43:11 > 0:43:17get that a lot. They are not even scared, embarrassed.Yes.I just

0:43:17 > 0:43:20think if we were talking about bullying, we all understand the

0:43:20 > 0:43:23principle that it is how that person feels and then you go to the

0:43:23 > 0:43:26evidence to try and justify it one way or the other. Why is that not

0:43:26 > 0:43:29the same when it is to do with sexual harassment? There isn't a

0:43:29 > 0:43:33sliding scale of, you know, this is really bad sexual harassment so we

0:43:33 > 0:43:37will take this seriously. It's how it makes that individual feel and if

0:43:37 > 0:43:42you feel indim tated by someone, if you are being made to feel

0:43:42 > 0:43:46uncomfortable and if it is having lasting impact on you, that needs to

0:43:46 > 0:43:49be taken seriously. That's sensible, if you are an agency staff member,

0:43:49 > 0:43:55if you are a jobbing actor or a model, where are you meant to be

0:43:55 > 0:44:01reporting this to? When you know the industry is leaky and you will be

0:44:01 > 0:44:07back listed. I could be accused of jumping on the Me Too campaign

0:44:07 > 0:44:13because of timing. I held this up today...This is the Me Too sign.

0:44:13 > 0:44:17I'm here without most people in my family or without most of my friends

0:44:17 > 0:44:23knowing what's happened to me. And I agree with what you have been

0:44:23 > 0:44:28saying. There needs to be a constructive argument and a change

0:44:28 > 0:44:32of policy to deal with this. I've tried that through the proper

0:44:32 > 0:44:37processes.This is in the NHS.This is in the NHS. I have been a nurse

0:44:37 > 0:44:45for 30 years. I've worked with men for all of my life. I've, I'm not a

0:44:45 > 0:44:49model. I don't get propositioned very often. I have been married for

0:44:49 > 0:44:5525 years. And most of the time I have managed to, you know, ninor

0:44:55 > 0:45:01thing I have managed to deal with. Something different happened to me

0:45:01 > 0:45:07at work that happened with harassment. Asking me out to a show.

0:45:07 > 0:45:15Did I want a phone number? Progressed to touching and I, I

0:45:15 > 0:45:21didn't move. I didn't move. I didn't tell this man not to do that.You

0:45:21 > 0:45:30froze?I froze. I totally froze. I could probably stand up when that

0:45:30 > 0:45:33somebody else and that's happening under my nose to somebody else, I

0:45:33 > 0:45:37know I would stand up, but for whatever reason I froze and talking

0:45:37 > 0:45:43about power, I know that that was a green light to that man. I told my

0:45:43 > 0:45:50manager that I was feeling uncomfortable and it progressed to a

0:45:50 > 0:45:54sexual assault.

0:45:54 > 0:46:01I have been off work for two years. I'm still employed by the NHS. I

0:46:01 > 0:46:05have been going through an internal investigation process. I have been

0:46:05 > 0:46:09too unwell to work because of the trauma. I haven't really told most

0:46:09 > 0:46:13people that know me. I am actually banned from talking to my

0:46:13 > 0:46:21colleagues. I jumped on this because I have tried to raise it through the

0:46:21 > 0:46:29channels within my organisation. So for me this is something to help

0:46:29 > 0:46:34what I think needs to happen. I think women should be able to call

0:46:34 > 0:46:37this out when it happens for it to be dealt with. I have been

0:46:37 > 0:46:44penalised. My wages were stopped without telling me. I was then

0:46:44 > 0:46:47apparently overpaid. I wasn't told about that. Debt collectors

0:46:47 > 0:46:58contacted me.Also of consequences are Allsorts of consequences. That

0:46:58 > 0:47:01could lead to others not wanting to speak out because they will think,

0:47:01 > 0:47:07is it worth it?Exactly. Having raised it through the official

0:47:07 > 0:47:14grievance process within my organisation, the only thing I can

0:47:14 > 0:47:21say is there has been a cover-up. There is bent an amendment to my

0:47:21 > 0:47:25working shifts, and amendment of sickness meetings where the

0:47:25 > 0:47:30perpetrator's name was talked about. There are three versions of some

0:47:30 > 0:47:36letters. And that was the investigation panel's information.

0:47:36 > 0:47:39There was never going to be an independent investigation into what

0:47:39 > 0:47:44happened to me, because of the cover-up.I want to pause that. John

0:47:44 > 0:47:49Mann, I know you have to go out ten. I want you to tell us about the four

0:47:49 > 0:47:57cases you are aware that Westminster.I am aware of far more

0:47:57 > 0:48:03than four. Four have come directly to me. That is an incredible number.

0:48:03 > 0:48:09What is the nature?Different ends of the spectrum. One is a serious

0:48:09 > 0:48:20sexual assault allegation.Rate? No, but sexual assault. One is being

0:48:20 > 0:48:29groped in a bar in the parliamentary bar by an MP. Very different levels.

0:48:29 > 0:48:38Two of them made formal complaints. To the authorities or the police?

0:48:38 > 0:48:41Part of the problem with Parliament is it is not clearly the authorities

0:48:41 > 0:48:48are. 12 the political party, my political party. In both cases these

0:48:48 > 0:48:53women complained. There was some clear evidence there. And in one

0:48:53 > 0:48:59case the police investigated but the assault was abroad and the police

0:48:59 > 0:49:03couldn't prosecute because they didn't have the jurisdiction, which

0:49:03 > 0:49:08is accurate. We can't prosecute because it is not in this country.

0:49:08 > 0:49:11In both cases, the Parliamentary authorities and the political party,

0:49:11 > 0:49:19nothing was done. The other two have not made complaints because I think

0:49:19 > 0:49:24they feel they won't be believed. They feel, well, I've got over it,

0:49:24 > 0:49:31it was relatively trivial. But if someone is prepared to manhandled

0:49:31 > 0:49:37someone in a parliamentary bar once, many other times have done it? How

0:49:37 > 0:49:42many other people that they done to? That is the problem if you sweep it

0:49:42 > 0:49:46under the carpet.What is your reaction to Labour activist Bex

0:49:46 > 0:49:53Bailey telling somebody senior to her in the Labour Party that she had

0:49:53 > 0:49:57been raped and was effectively told not to say anything because it may

0:49:57 > 0:50:03damage her career?It is appalling. I know Bex Bailey. She is one of the

0:50:03 > 0:50:12people who has advised me on how to do take... She has become expert at

0:50:12 > 0:50:18it. She is very brave in speaking out the way she has. It is shocking

0:50:18 > 0:50:22the advice she was given. It also shows there was no system in place.

0:50:22 > 0:50:27If there isn't a system in place, where do you go? How will it be

0:50:27 > 0:50:31dealt with? If there is a system in place, people like me have got some

0:50:31 > 0:50:36influence. We can challenge that system, we can attempt to do so. If

0:50:36 > 0:50:43there is no system, where do you go? That is a huge problem.We have told

0:50:43 > 0:50:48this morning about politics, journalism, they RAF, the NHS, the

0:50:48 > 0:50:54modelling world, the media generally. These claims all started

0:50:54 > 0:50:56in Hollywood with allegations against movie mogul Harvey

0:50:56 > 0:51:03Weinstein. This week, it spread to the actor, Kevin Spacey. In an

0:51:03 > 0:51:07exclusive interview we hear claims today that Kevin Spacey made another

0:51:07 > 0:51:13separate sexual advance on a teenage boy in the 1980s. That teenage boy

0:51:13 > 0:51:17is now in his 50s and has chosen to tell his story publicly to this

0:51:17 > 0:51:22problem for the first time. He doesn't want to reveal his identity.

0:51:22 > 0:51:26We are calling him John. He says Kevin Spacey invited him to stay at

0:51:26 > 0:51:31his apartment and repeatedly asked him to get into bed with him. John

0:51:31 > 0:51:36was 17 at the time. He declined. He slept on the sofa and he woke to

0:51:36 > 0:51:41find Kevin Spacey lying on top of him wearing only his underwear. Mr

0:51:41 > 0:51:48Spacey was 26 at the time. Earlier this week Kevin Spacey apologised

0:51:48 > 0:51:52after making a sexual advance towards then 14-year-old actor. John

0:51:52 > 0:51:57Still works in the entertainment industry. He is speaking out now to

0:51:57 > 0:52:02warn about predatory behaviour. We haven't been able to verify

0:52:02 > 0:52:06everything he told us. Kevin Spacey has not responded to our request for

0:52:06 > 0:52:11a comment. He told us how he met Kevin Spacey at a theatre school

0:52:11 > 0:52:14before Mr Spacey invited him to his home.

0:52:14 > 0:52:18I went down with a friend who stayed with a relative and I stayed with

0:52:18 > 0:52:31Kevin. He took me around New York. We went out to dinner. I met a

0:52:31 > 0:52:39neighbour of his. We were in his apartment and he showed me a great

0:52:39 > 0:52:43deal of the work that he had done and was about to do. He was about to

0:52:43 > 0:52:53go into rehearsals for a long day's journey into night, referenced in

0:52:53 > 0:52:58Anthony Rapp's account. It was with Jack Lemmon. It was his first really

0:52:58 > 0:53:02big Broadway role not as an understudy. It was a big deal for

0:53:02 > 0:53:09him. I was equally impressed. And then in the evening he became

0:53:09 > 0:53:19affectionate in a way that I certainly wasn't interested in.What

0:53:19 > 0:53:26does that mean, affectionate?Hand on my thigh, around my shoulder,

0:53:26 > 0:53:42sitting on the couch. Rubbing my arm. Trying to... I'm 17 at the

0:53:42 > 0:53:48time. I'm not 14. I think there is a difference. I get it. But I am

0:53:48 > 0:53:52vulnerable and there was no direct explanation of what was going on. It

0:53:52 > 0:53:59came time to go to bed. He indicated that one side of the bed would be

0:53:59 > 0:54:03mine, the other side of the bed would be his. I thanked him but told

0:54:03 > 0:54:08him I would rather sleep on the couch. He said, no, that's

0:54:08 > 0:54:13ridiculous. I said, no, I think you but I am going to stay on the couch.

0:54:13 > 0:54:21He got a little testy. He said he didn't have any extra pillows. I

0:54:21 > 0:54:24said, I'm fine, I'll sleep on the case. It was an icy good night and I

0:54:24 > 0:54:28slept on the couch with my clothes on.How did you feel about how the

0:54:28 > 0:54:33evening attended?I thought I would be kicked out in the morning, if not

0:54:33 > 0:54:36before. He didn't threaten as much but it felt as if it wasn't going

0:54:36 > 0:54:44well at all and I misunderstood what was going on. I was up most of the

0:54:44 > 0:54:52night. As we went to sleep, he was sobbing from his bed. I knew enough

0:54:52 > 0:54:58to know that that was likely meant to get me to respond in some way,

0:54:58 > 0:55:06which I didn't. I just tried to make it through the evening. In the

0:55:06 > 0:55:10morning I woke up and his head was on my stomach and his arms were

0:55:10 > 0:55:15wrapped around my torso very affectionately, I would suppose. It

0:55:15 > 0:55:21certainly wasn't aggressive but it was affectionate and not something I

0:55:21 > 0:55:24was comfortable with as a heterosexual male. But it wasn't

0:55:24 > 0:55:29something I was going to jump out the window over.You woke up and he

0:55:29 > 0:55:37was on top of you?His head was on my abdomen, yes. He was in his

0:55:37 > 0:55:45underwear. I was fully clothed. And I supposed it was some sort of New

0:55:45 > 0:55:50York theatre actor good morning, but it also made me feel very

0:55:50 > 0:55:54uncomfortable. He jumped up said, let's going get breakfast. We didn't

0:55:54 > 0:56:02speak of the night before at all. We then went out and had a day in New

0:56:02 > 0:56:08York City as what I would call friends. And as a 17-year-old who

0:56:08 > 0:56:11didn't really like to talk about feelings, it felt like everything

0:56:11 > 0:56:17was going to be fine.Can I ask, when you woke up did you think that

0:56:17 > 0:56:22he had, perhaps when you were sleeping, had touched you in any way

0:56:22 > 0:56:28or anything sexual that happened? No. No, I didn't think that at all.

0:56:28 > 0:56:33I just thought this is a very strange way to wake up. What I had

0:56:33 > 0:56:39felt was that I was being manipulated. And that I was in over

0:56:39 > 0:56:43my head. This was an adult and I was not yet an adult. That's how it

0:56:43 > 0:56:52felt. We went on to have a day in New York. It was heady for a young

0:56:52 > 0:56:59actor. It was easy to be distracted. We met a number of people who were

0:56:59 > 0:57:04well-known celebrities, throughout the day, who he had known or whose

0:57:04 > 0:57:08paths have crossed with his. We went to a museum, we had lunch, we had

0:57:08 > 0:57:21dinner, a crazy restaurant filled with celebrities. And then back to

0:57:21 > 0:57:24his house and more conversation about him and his impending

0:57:24 > 0:57:32rehearsal period. And more touching and affectionate hugging and telling

0:57:32 > 0:57:36me he thought he had been misunderstood when we met that

0:57:36 > 0:57:47summer. At the summer stock Theatre. And at this point I burst into tears

0:57:47 > 0:57:53because I just couldn't articulate any more what was happening to me or

0:57:53 > 0:58:01my response was, or how I felt about this situation. I was scared. I

0:58:01 > 0:58:06would say to his credit, he stopped. From that point he backed off. We

0:58:06 > 0:58:10went to steep the next morning. He made sure I got to the bus map

0:58:10 > 0:58:17station. Perhaps he felt he was in over his head, I don't know. We

0:58:17 > 0:58:24didn't speak again. Later in life, I work in the entertainment industry

0:58:24 > 0:58:31now, seeing him rise to fame shortly after that time was weird. To say

0:58:31 > 0:58:44the least. I never felt I had a claim to anything or even, you know,

0:58:44 > 0:58:48I needed to move on. I didn't care necessarily to have this experience

0:58:48 > 0:58:56we are having right now of speaking other publicly about it. But again,

0:58:56 > 0:59:00to hear that Anthony Rapp had his experience and I know there are

0:59:00 > 0:59:05others rule out that there is, I feel like it's important to have

0:59:05 > 0:59:09some good come of it and certainly to let people know who work in our

0:59:09 > 0:59:13industry, whether they're young people, women or vulnerable, that

0:59:13 > 0:59:20they should be vigilant and alert and speak out. And that any culture

0:59:20 > 0:59:24of intimidation and needs to be fought against. And for those of us

0:59:24 > 0:59:28like myself who have some positions of responsibility now and authority

0:59:28 > 0:59:31in the industry, we have an obligation to keep an iMac Wright

0:59:31 > 0:59:38for those who are more vulnerable than we may be, and to make sure

0:59:38 > 0:59:44those people are taken care of. To keep on eye out. Those people should

0:59:44 > 0:59:46have a special studies in the industry because of their

0:59:46 > 0:59:53vulnerability. You ask what I feel now about this incident. You know,

0:59:53 > 0:59:57if I give Kevin Spacey the benefit of the dead, he was very stupid.

0:59:57 > 1:00:04With me. -- the benefit of the doubt. And obviously with Anthony

1:00:04 > 1:00:09Rapp. He was not drunk during this, by the way. I knew of his reply had

1:00:09 > 1:00:14been that he was drunk during the interview with Anthony Rapp. We had

1:00:14 > 1:00:18we can together and there was no alcohol involved. I was not offered

1:00:18 > 1:00:27alcohol, drugs or anything like that. We were all sober. So with me

1:00:27 > 1:00:33he was either very stupid or he was predatory. Or maybe a bowl. Whatever

1:00:33 > 1:00:40the case may be I was uncomfortable at best. Traumatised at worst.

1:00:40 > 1:00:49Emotionally. I have moved on from it. I don't have any regrets. I wish

1:00:49 > 1:00:56it hadn't happened. And I hope that other people, if they have had this

1:00:56 > 1:01:02experience come forward if no other reason than to make more aware of a

1:01:02 > 1:01:04very permissive entertainment industry. Did it ever occur to you

1:01:04 > 1:01:13then to speak out to somebody in authority, an adult, a parent? No.

1:01:13 > 1:01:17I didn't tell my parents. I imagine my sister is learning about this for

1:01:17 > 1:01:24the first time. It has been relegated to, as I have become an

1:01:24 > 1:01:32adult, to the territory of a creepy anecdote, perhaps I felt in the 80s

1:01:32 > 1:01:39that this is what the gay culture was allowable and was permissible

1:01:39 > 1:01:46and maybe it was my fault or I brought it on myself or I was

1:01:46 > 1:01:51somehow giving off a vibe that I was interested in Kevin in that way. So,

1:01:51 > 1:01:56you know, these are I think probably common feelings that come when one

1:01:56 > 1:02:00is victimised.Do you have a view as to what you would like to see happen

1:02:00 > 1:02:09to Kevin Spacey?No. I mean, look, I don't know what his experience has

1:02:09 > 1:02:17been with other people. So, in terms of my experience, I think for him to

1:02:17 > 1:02:25know that I haven't forgotten and that it was very confusing to me is

1:02:25 > 1:02:29probably enough. I don't know him and I don't know what his life is

1:02:29 > 1:02:36like. I don't know anybody who now knows him. But I certainly would

1:02:36 > 1:02:50hope that he stops or has stopped this type of behaviour.

1:03:01 > 1:03:10You want to say something.I query his motives for bringing it up.

1:03:10 > 1:03:16Obviously, I know nothing about it. He said he felt empowered because

1:03:16 > 1:03:21Anthony Rapid had spoken out, but he didn't want to diminish the numbers

1:03:21 > 1:03:25of women coming out to speak out. He hasn't told us lot, but he told

1:03:25 > 1:03:32friends and therapists.Sure. It does seem opportunistic on the

1:03:32 > 1:03:36surface to me.What would you say?I am not sure about this particular

1:03:36 > 1:03:39algarks but I have read a lot into the women that have come forward

1:03:39 > 1:03:42about Harvey Weinstein and a lot of them have waited a long time, but

1:03:42 > 1:03:46when you hear their stories, they are really horrendous stories and if

1:03:46 > 1:03:49anyone knows about people who have gone through a rape, whether you

1:03:49 > 1:03:53want to call them victims or whatever, it's not easy. You know,

1:03:53 > 1:03:59to put that information forward, intimate sexual details is not

1:03:59 > 1:04:02something you want to share with anyone, not your best friend or

1:04:02 > 1:04:07mother or therapist, or your worst enemy. It's very difficult. So when

1:04:07 > 1:04:12you see examples of people speaking out, maybe you think, OK, I have got

1:04:12 > 1:04:15an opportunity, but not in a way to profit. What is this guy going to

1:04:15 > 1:04:22get?Not money for it.We have the idea of footballers, women that had

1:04:22 > 1:04:26sexual relationships with footballers in the past and going to

1:04:26 > 1:04:29the Daily Mail in the past and they are bimbos and they are doing it for

1:04:29 > 1:04:33the money. The examples for women that speak out, they are ridiculed,

1:04:33 > 1:04:37there is an actress in Italy who had a long relationship with Harvey

1:04:37 > 1:04:39Weinstein, a very difficult relationship. She had to leave her

1:04:39 > 1:04:42country because reporters are saying, you gave it away and then

1:04:42 > 1:04:46you complain. You pretend afterwards. Well, when you go into

1:04:46 > 1:04:49the details, a lot of these women did speak out at the time. A lot of

1:04:49 > 1:04:54these women went to the police and went to their senior authorities in

1:04:54 > 1:04:58the Weinstein company and went to Harvey Weinstein's brother, Bob,

1:04:58 > 1:05:04they told other directors, famous directors who were working closely,

1:05:04 > 1:05:11they told friends and family, Gwyneth Paltrow went and told Brad

1:05:11 > 1:05:15Pitt and told her parents and people did speak out, but Harvey Weinstein

1:05:15 > 1:05:20managed to silence them and paid them off and made them sign NDAs and

1:05:20 > 1:05:28had...Briefly react to that...He controlled the press as well.I know

1:05:28 > 1:05:34a tiny little bit about Weinstein having looked it up last night. It

1:05:34 > 1:05:41is, I would say it is a different situation. The Weinstein situation

1:05:41 > 1:05:46is horrendous and Kevin Spacey occasionally appears to make passes

1:05:46 > 1:05:51at people and I'm sorry...There should be zero tolerance. It is not

1:05:51 > 1:05:59OK. Language like...Zero tolerance of what?Of any kind of behaviour.

1:05:59 > 1:06:04Do you mean you can't proposition someone? Is that you are saying?I

1:06:04 > 1:06:08want to get drunk and get off with a person occasionally.At work, in

1:06:08 > 1:06:14your workplace...No one is talking about that.Zero tolerance and we

1:06:14 > 1:06:20are talking about Kevin Spacey when he was 27 and a 17-year-old...A

1:06:20 > 1:06:24summer school student.There was no drink involved in that. Nobody

1:06:24 > 1:06:31had...Somebody said drunken encounters and somebody said zero

1:06:31 > 1:06:35tolerance. The reason I think it is nerve-wracking is because part of

1:06:35 > 1:06:40the fight for women's liberation was partly a sexual liberation and it

1:06:40 > 1:06:45was partly about having the capacity to be treated as equals and not to

1:06:45 > 1:06:49see ourselves in some kind of Victorian, there was a time in the

1:06:49 > 1:06:53Victorian era when women couldn't go out without shab ropebs and they had

1:06:53 > 1:06:57to be accompanied everywhere, there was a curfew for them because they

1:06:57 > 1:07:01were delicate flowers and they needed to be protected from predator

1:07:01 > 1:07:07men. I'm worried that 2017 is going to end up with that if we don't get

1:07:07 > 1:07:17a sense of proportion because rape and sexual assault. Drunken fum

1:07:17 > 1:07:24blings, we have all done it.We will talk more in the next half an hour.

1:07:24 > 1:07:29We have heard a second claim that Kevin Spacey made a sexual advance

1:07:29 > 1:07:35on a teenageage boy in the 1980s. So with me he was either very stupid or

1:07:35 > 1:07:40he was predatory and or maybe a little both.

1:07:40 > 1:07:46Whatever the case maybe, I was uncomfortable at best and

1:07:46 > 1:07:49traumatised at worse. More reaction to that interview to

1:07:49 > 1:07:57come throughout the morning.

1:07:57 > 1:08:00We have a studio full of guests talking about sexual

1:08:00 > 1:08:03harassment in the workplaces across a variety of industries.

1:08:03 > 1:08:10We will talk about why and what needs to change.

1:08:10 > 1:08:18We have seen Westminster playing this out in public, what strikes me

1:08:18 > 1:08:23is how difficult it is for people who suffered abuse to gain a

1:08:23 > 1:08:29resolution, any sense of justice and there is an opportunity, Westminster

1:08:29 > 1:08:32must be seen to lead on this and with that it needs to be

1:08:32 > 1:08:44independent. It has got got to be beyond the parties.We need more

1:08:44 > 1:08:48female role models and we need morewomen in leadership positions

1:08:48 > 1:08:52and we need people to speak up and we need a support system in place

1:08:52 > 1:08:56for those people not to feel vulnerable that they are going to

1:08:56 > 1:08:59lose their jobs or not get the investment they want and that they

1:08:59 > 1:09:05will get the careers they are aiming for.What else needs to change?

1:09:05 > 1:09:11There needs to be a safe space for people to call in from any industry.

1:09:11 > 1:09:14There needs to be a helpline to enable people who are in

1:09:14 > 1:09:18institutions like the Royal Air Force to speak out there. Maybe

1:09:18 > 1:09:21complaints procedures in place, but I have people who contacted me who

1:09:21 > 1:09:25are still serving as a result of watching a play that I wrote about

1:09:25 > 1:09:31my own experience.What needs to change?The idea of the casting

1:09:31 > 1:09:35couch being an unacceptable way for both victims and the perpetrators of

1:09:35 > 1:09:41moving up careers. I think that has to really end.

1:09:41 > 1:09:44Thank you. So much more from our audience throughout the programme

1:09:44 > 1:09:47this morning.

1:09:47 > 1:09:50Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

1:09:50 > 1:09:52Good morning.

1:09:52 > 1:09:54At least eight people have been killed and 11 seriously

1:09:54 > 1:09:56hurt in New York City in what officials have

1:09:56 > 1:09:58described as a terror attack.

1:09:58 > 1:10:01Eyewitnesses saw a white pick-up truck driving at speed down a cycle

1:10:01 > 1:10:03path in Lower Manhattan, before it hit a number

1:10:03 > 1:10:06cyclists and pedestrians.

1:10:06 > 1:10:08A 29-year-old man was shot by police before being arrested

1:10:08 > 1:10:11and taken to hospital.

1:10:11 > 1:10:21The Mayor of New York, Bill de Blasio has condemned the attack.

1:10:25 > 1:10:28That this action was intended to break our spirit. New Yorkers are

1:10:28 > 1:10:34strong. New Yorkers are resilient and our spirit will never be moved

1:10:34 > 1:10:38by an act of violence and an act meant to intimidate usment we have

1:10:38 > 1:10:44been tested before as a city, very near the site of today's tragedy and

1:10:44 > 1:10:57New Yorkers do not give in in the face of these kinds of actions.

1:10:57 > 1:11:00The Prime Minister has referred the First Secretary of State,

1:11:00 > 1:11:02Damian Green, to the country's most senior civil servant,

1:11:02 > 1:11:05after he was accused of making sexual advances towards a female

1:11:05 > 1:11:06Conservative activist.

1:11:06 > 1:11:10Mr Green has strongly denied the allegation made

1:11:10 > 1:11:13by the writer, Kate Maltby, saying it was "deeply hurtful".

1:11:13 > 1:11:18We can now speak to our Assistant Political Editor Norman Smith.

1:11:18 > 1:11:24Norman.Well, Damian Green, as you say, overnight categorically denied

1:11:24 > 1:11:27the allegation saying they were completely and absolutely untrue. He

1:11:27 > 1:11:32says he's shocked and hurt by them and regarded the individual, Kate

1:11:32 > 1:11:38Maltby, as a friend. Although he has been referred to the Cabinet Office

1:11:38 > 1:11:42for investigation, Downing Street are pointing out that's the normal

1:11:42 > 1:11:46procedure that always applies when any minister is facing these

1:11:46 > 1:11:50complaints and is not a suggestion that Mr Green might be guilty or

1:11:50 > 1:11:55involved in these allegations. As for Mr Green himself, he has

1:11:55 > 1:11:58instructed a firm of liable lawyers to pursue anyone who makes

1:11:58 > 1:12:01defamatory comments about him and this was his reaction as he was

1:12:01 > 1:12:07leaving home this morning. REPORTER: Have you been behaving

1:12:07 > 1:12:12inappropriate. Is it right that Downing Street investigate you?All

1:12:12 > 1:12:13the allegations are completely false.

1:12:13 > 1:12:21REPORTER: Do you regret your behaviour, Mr Green?There Mr Green

1:12:21 > 1:12:24saying all the allegations are completely false, but perhaps the

1:12:24 > 1:12:27significance here is this is just the latest in a number of

1:12:27 > 1:12:31individuals who have been prepared to go public with these sort of

1:12:31 > 1:12:37allegations. Remember yesterday we had the Labour activist Bex Bailey

1:12:37 > 1:12:40saying her claim of rape had not been properly investigated by the

1:12:40 > 1:12:44Labour Party and there is a growing view at Westminster that perhaps we

1:12:44 > 1:12:48will see more of these claims and allegations beginning to surface as

1:12:48 > 1:12:52more and more women are prepared to come forward and to speak out.

1:12:52 > 1:13:03Norman,thank you very much indeed. Norman Smith there.

1:13:03 > 1:13:08The Labour MP John Mann told us of four cases that he is aware and that

1:13:08 > 1:13:13claims are not being taken seriously at Westminster.In both cases the

1:13:13 > 1:13:15Parliamentary authority and the political authority, nothing was

1:13:15 > 1:13:20done and women who did come forward and complained. The other two

1:13:20 > 1:13:24haven't made complaints because I think they feel they won't be

1:13:24 > 1:13:34believed. They feel I have got over it. It was relatively trivial.

1:13:34 > 1:13:36This programme has exclusively been told of another sexual advance made

1:13:36 > 1:13:38towards a teenager by the actor Kevin Spacey.

1:13:38 > 1:13:41John - not his real name - claims that he rebutted sexual

1:13:41 > 1:13:44advances from Mr Spacey after meeting him at

1:13:44 > 1:13:47a summer theatre school when he was 17 in the 1980s.

1:13:47 > 1:13:51Earlier this week Spacey apologised after being accused of making

1:13:51 > 1:13:54a sexual advance toward child actor Anthony Rapp, who was 14.

1:13:54 > 1:13:56We have approached Kevin Spacey's representatives for a comment but

1:13:56 > 1:14:02have not yet received a response.

1:14:02 > 1:14:07Here is what John told us about his encounter with the actor.So with me

1:14:07 > 1:14:14he was either very stupid or he was predatory or maybe a little both.

1:14:14 > 1:14:19Whatever the case maybe, I was uncomfortable at best and

1:14:19 > 1:14:24traumatised at worse. John repped counting his

1:14:24 > 1:14:28experiences.

1:14:28 > 1:14:31A report which aims to learn lessons from the experiences of people whose

1:14:31 > 1:14:33relatives died in the Hillsborough disaster, will be

1:14:33 > 1:14:34published this morning.

1:14:34 > 1:14:37It will include the conduct of past police investigations and look

1:14:37 > 1:14:39at the families' engagement with public authorities

1:14:39 > 1:14:41over the last 28 years.

1:14:41 > 1:14:43Written by former Bishop of Liverpool, the Right

1:14:43 > 1:14:46Reverend James Jones, it's intended to help

1:14:46 > 1:14:54the authorities respond to future disasters.

1:14:54 > 1:15:00Man convicted of murdering Mike Samwell has been jailed for life.

1:15:00 > 1:15:0529-year-old Ryan Gibbons has been told he will serve 27 years for

1:15:05 > 1:15:09running over Mr Samwell as he stole his Audi sports car from outside his

1:15:09 > 1:15:10home in April this year.

1:15:10 > 1:15:17That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30am.

1:15:17 > 1:15:23Thank you you. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Today we have been

1:15:23 > 1:15:26discussing sexual harassment, its impact and how it can be challenged.

1:15:26 > 1:15:31Our audience is made of up of men and women, some of whom have been

1:15:31 > 1:15:35harassed at work. We are going to try to work out what can be done to

1:15:35 > 1:15:40tackle it, to stop it in HR departments, in schools, in society,

1:15:40 > 1:15:46about how you bring up your boys, whatever it might be. One thing that

1:15:46 > 1:15:49has come up a bit already is some men are confused about what kind of

1:15:49 > 1:15:56behaviour is acceptable. Is that acceptable for men to say that come

1:15:56 > 1:16:03they are confused? What do you think?I actually returned to

1:16:03 > 1:16:14banking after having a period out. Sorry... I returned because I had

1:16:14 > 1:16:18had two small children and took a steep learning curve. I was called

1:16:18 > 1:16:21into the manager's offers who congratulated me on how well I was

1:16:21 > 1:16:26doing. He said, let's go to lunch and we can discuss promotion. Over

1:16:26 > 1:16:30lunch he propositioned me that if we were to go to bed together I could

1:16:30 > 1:16:36next -- at the next grade up. I needed that bringing up two young

1:16:36 > 1:16:41children. I was shocked. I said maybe some other young ladies may

1:16:41 > 1:16:46take you up on that offer but I am not that person. We got back into

1:16:46 > 1:16:49the banking pool and I thought, I have to deal with this. In the

1:16:49 > 1:16:53middle of the banking hall in front of staff and customers I said, about

1:16:53 > 1:16:58that offer for a promotion to get into bed with you, I'm sorry, I

1:16:58 > 1:17:03decline, not that person. I said that in front of everybody.Claire,

1:17:03 > 1:17:11what do you think of that?That is brilliant. That is an obvious

1:17:11 > 1:17:16absolute example of harassment. You called it out. That is brilliant.

1:17:16 > 1:17:19That's not quite the same as an article in the papers today which

1:17:19 > 1:17:23says you have to talk to your sons and your brothers and warn them

1:17:23 > 1:17:28about talking to women. I want more social interaction between the sexes

1:17:28 > 1:17:33and not it all to be lumped in that one.Andy, are you one of those men

1:17:33 > 1:17:40wondering if it is all right?I suffered sexual assault from

1:17:40 > 1:17:45high-powered executives who offered me further into my career. One thing

1:17:45 > 1:17:50that worries me about this debate is that it has become my men are the

1:17:50 > 1:17:54perpetrators and that really worries me. If I had a son now, I would want

1:17:54 > 1:18:02to say to him, as a tactile man myself, I am gay but when I talk to

1:18:02 > 1:18:12women I may touch Stoney. That is OK. I really think so. I have got a

1:18:12 > 1:18:15friend, a girlfriend, who rides on the Underground and who feels

1:18:15 > 1:18:18threatened every time a man sits beside her on the tube. That is

1:18:18 > 1:18:25frightening. This is not about men versus women. It is about

1:18:25 > 1:18:28individuals. What really worried me about the start of the MeToo

1:18:28 > 1:18:35campaign was that there were people saying, can men stop saying MeToo?

1:18:35 > 1:18:43This is about women.We have established that.I just wanted to

1:18:43 > 1:18:48say that I'm not comfortable with anyone saying if you can't speak up

1:18:48 > 1:18:53that that is weak. I think it is amazing what you did. This is not a

1:18:53 > 1:18:57work situation. I was once on a train. It was raining. There was an

1:18:57 > 1:19:01umbrella poking in my shoulder. When I looked around it wasn't an

1:19:01 > 1:19:09umbrella. It was a man's penis. And I really wanted to stand up and

1:19:09 > 1:19:14showed penis at the top of my voice. But I didn't have the guts. I don't

1:19:14 > 1:19:18think that makes me less of a woman. As feminists we should stick

1:19:18 > 1:19:23together and embrace all types are women. All I did was move my

1:19:23 > 1:19:26shoulder, not dare look back again and got off the train at the next

1:19:26 > 1:19:33stop. It's not we give you can't speak out.Alex, as an employment

1:19:33 > 1:19:36lawyer, is there any advice you would give do those men at the

1:19:36 > 1:19:43moment who don't know what the boundaries are?It's like we said,

1:19:43 > 1:19:51it's not just men. Social harassment is unwanted conduct. It's normally

1:19:51 > 1:19:55fairly obvious if something is wanted or not. We're not saying that

1:19:55 > 1:20:02shouldn't be any relations between men and females ever. That isn't

1:20:02 > 1:20:06quite what anyone is saying, I don't think. It is clear when something is

1:20:06 > 1:20:14unwanted. Men need to then, or women, need to step back at that

1:20:14 > 1:20:19point. Perhaps if a man is confused about what is appropriate or

1:20:19 > 1:20:24inappropriate in the workplace, they should speak to their manager about

1:20:24 > 1:20:28it, their human resources about it. Perhaps there might be an equality

1:20:28 > 1:20:36wrap.You assume there is an infrastructure. A lot of the

1:20:36 > 1:20:39anecdotes we are hearing people who are freelancers, who are jobbing.

1:20:39 > 1:20:45There is no infrastructure.It tends to be with the perpetrators because

1:20:45 > 1:20:52they are the ones in power. Whilst it might be the agency workers or

1:20:52 > 1:20:56the would-be worker looking for a job, the person that tends to be the

1:20:56 > 1:21:02one committing the harassment tends to be someone in a fairly senior

1:21:02 > 1:21:13position.What should they do? They ain't going to go to the HR

1:21:13 > 1:21:19Department.If someone really isn't sure what is appropriate or

1:21:19 > 1:21:22inappropriate, they could call Acas. If there is a union in the

1:21:22 > 1:21:27workplace, there will be an equality representative.I'm doing that thing

1:21:27 > 1:21:34that men do and talking over women! I ask myself if you would do this in

1:21:34 > 1:21:37a job interview. If I was interviewed by a woman would I say

1:21:37 > 1:21:45that? If the answer is no, it is probably not appropriate.Most

1:21:45 > 1:21:49people will know when they're harassing someone. That is pretty

1:21:49 > 1:21:52clear. You know when somebody does unwanted and you continue to do.

1:21:52 > 1:21:59Inappropriate behaviour or come ons, off-the-cuff remarks that land

1:21:59 > 1:22:02badly, that is different. People will know when it is inappropriate.

1:22:02 > 1:22:08You know when it is harassment.It only becomes fairly clear when it is

1:22:08 > 1:22:14unwanted. Someone may make an off-the-cuff comment and it is

1:22:14 > 1:22:24normally clear. You don't take it any further.My big campaign is

1:22:24 > 1:22:27relationship education for primary school children. This is symptomatic

1:22:27 > 1:22:30of a situation where a lot of children are learning about

1:22:30 > 1:22:36relationships through their social media, through porn. What we need is

1:22:36 > 1:22:42for children to be taught to respect themselves and others, to know they

1:22:42 > 1:22:46can say no but also if somebody says no and backs away, you have a duty

1:22:46 > 1:22:51to back away.That is a theme through all state schools, probably

1:22:51 > 1:23:01private schools as well. It is not specifically a bit of the education.

1:23:01 > 1:23:05It needs to be. It has to make a difference. At least then children

1:23:05 > 1:23:11know what the boundaries are.I am an entrepreneur. I am founder of the

1:23:11 > 1:23:15Juno project and we do exactly that. We work with girls in secondary

1:23:15 > 1:23:19school. Girls at risk of being excluded from school or who have

1:23:19 > 1:23:22been excluded. We help them to develop their self-esteem and their

1:23:22 > 1:23:29self-confidence.On this issue of self-esteem and confidence, Suzy you

1:23:29 > 1:23:32give that incredible example of where you called out your manager in

1:23:32 > 1:23:37front of staff and customers in the bank. Unbelievable. You called him

1:23:37 > 1:23:41out. Hopefully that was the end of him. Is there a difference between a

1:23:41 > 1:23:45woman of your age being able to do that and women now in their 20s,

1:23:45 > 1:23:51some of whom are saying, I couldn't speak out, I was worried about my

1:23:51 > 1:23:55job prospects?I do. I think that my mum's generation ingrained that in

1:23:55 > 1:23:59my generation. You have to be a stronger woman and stand up for what

1:23:59 > 1:24:04is right. What I have to say as well is that if we don't deal with the

1:24:04 > 1:24:08situation there and then, we're leaving that person open to doing it

1:24:08 > 1:24:13to somebody else.It also depends on the nature of the personality. If

1:24:13 > 1:24:16you feel you can do that. Sometimes you can't. You are scared, you're

1:24:16 > 1:24:24worried. Would you consider yourself, and I'm going to use this

1:24:24 > 1:24:32pejorative term, to be of the snowflake generation?Meaning?

1:24:32 > 1:24:36Meaning you have been sexually harassed and you have told no one?

1:24:36 > 1:24:40Absolutely. The crazy thing is when everybody has been talking I have

1:24:40 > 1:24:44been sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, what about that that happened?

1:24:44 > 1:24:48And actually, I think we are just a representation of the small part of

1:24:48 > 1:24:58what this is. And that probably most people in society can say... A lot

1:24:58 > 1:25:01of people can say that something has happened to me or I have escaped

1:25:01 > 1:25:05something. I came on the programme to tell you about how I escaped what

1:25:05 > 1:25:11could have been horrendous. I was pretty similar to you, SJ. As a

1:25:11 > 1:25:17young actress in my 20s I took a phone call from a female PA, they

1:25:17 > 1:25:23needed an actress to do a scene. I thought, great. It was £450 in cash

1:25:23 > 1:25:29and I thought this was great. I'm working behind a bar. It was in the

1:25:29 > 1:25:34evening. I took a friend. It was in a hotel. I went to the hotel. I

1:25:34 > 1:25:39thought, that's a bit odd. I got there. They said, go straight up to

1:25:39 > 1:25:43the hotel room. I thought it was strange. I went there. The director

1:25:43 > 1:25:50opened the door. And he said, do come in. He saw my friend and he

1:25:50 > 1:25:54said, no, he can stay outside. Anyway, the friend came in. As he

1:25:54 > 1:25:59talks to me, he lay on the bed. The TV was flickering, it was dark. He

1:25:59 > 1:26:04actually went on to say and said, I need you to go through a scene with

1:26:04 > 1:26:08me because tomorrow we have a young actress coming from India, she is

1:26:08 > 1:26:11very naive, we need to go through the scene to see how it works. When

1:26:11 > 1:26:15she gets here in the morning we will be able to do the scene smooth and

1:26:15 > 1:26:22it will go well.Our alarm bells ringing?I said, explaining, not

1:26:22 > 1:26:28sure what you want to do. She said -- he said the girl is deaf and

1:26:28 > 1:26:33blind and she starts to regain her senses. I said, OK, so what's

1:26:33 > 1:26:36happening here? He said, so what we are going to do, you and I were

1:26:36 > 1:26:41going to the bathroom, we will be in the shower. It's a stunning scene

1:26:41 > 1:26:46where she slowly begins to feel her senses coming back as she's in the

1:26:46 > 1:26:50shower. Don't worry, your friend can stay in the other room. Don't worry

1:26:50 > 1:26:56about that. It is just you and I in there together. And I thought, you,

1:26:56 > 1:27:06you asking me to masturbate in your shower? And he said, no, it's not

1:27:06 > 1:27:11exactly like that. But, yes. It would just be you and me. Your

1:27:11 > 1:27:16friend can stay outside. I just said, no. I would not do that. But

1:27:16 > 1:27:21funnily enough, you can pay for my cab home. When we left the room I

1:27:21 > 1:27:26Fredman said to me, you know there were two glasses of champagne

1:27:26 > 1:27:33already poured by the bed. I escaped.Thank God. How Gross is

1:27:33 > 1:27:39that! How disgusting! Let me read this tweet. Heather is 65. She was

1:27:39 > 1:27:44told to smile sweetly at sexual predators and move on. But this is

1:27:44 > 1:27:502017, so call them out, don't let them get away with it.

1:27:50 > 1:27:58It is important you have raised that. People say to me you are

1:27:58 > 1:28:01hard-nosed, it is different. If you are young and in a position with

1:28:01 > 1:28:04little power, and I understand that. Believe it or not I was once young

1:28:04 > 1:28:10and I get the point. But I do worry that my generation are rearing young

1:28:10 > 1:28:13women to be fearful and frightened. It is the balancing act between

1:28:13 > 1:28:18those tanks. It is one thing saying you're not going to stand for it any

1:28:18 > 1:28:23more. Another thing to be scared. I thought your point about being on

1:28:23 > 1:28:29the tube... Many women I talk to are frightened.They get that from their

1:28:29 > 1:28:37mums?No, what I'm talking about is society has put sexually predatory

1:28:37 > 1:28:45behaviour on the same trajectory. You can talk about victim blaming.

1:28:45 > 1:28:49That is how I get silenced. I'm trying to explain there is a danger

1:28:49 > 1:28:54that the young woman will be silenced, our that so frightened

1:28:54 > 1:28:56that they would be walking on eggshells in relation to human

1:28:56 > 1:29:02relations with men. Hang on.There are women in care

1:29:02 > 1:29:08homes being abused were afraid to speak out.In my industry if you

1:29:08 > 1:29:13speak out, you lose your job. I'm a musician. In my industry, if you

1:29:13 > 1:29:17speak out, you lose your job. The legislation that covers

1:29:17 > 1:29:21self-employed people in the workplace is inadequate. We are not

1:29:21 > 1:29:26covered as self-employed people to get a case to the employment

1:29:26 > 1:29:29tribunal as Sony high-level requirements. Self-employed people

1:29:29 > 1:29:32in my industry can't match those requirements. Not to mention the

1:29:32 > 1:29:38fees. I spoke out against a sexual harassment situation in my job. I

1:29:38 > 1:29:41took a case to the employment tribunal and I haven't worked in the

1:29:41 > 1:29:48industry for two years. I lost 20 grands worth of work per year. I'm

1:29:48 > 1:29:51not scared of sexual harassment. But it is endemic in my industry and

1:29:51 > 1:29:56people who speak out lose work.We have talked about employment

1:29:56 > 1:30:00legislation and what could be made better. Sarah Champion has talked

1:30:00 > 1:30:05about relationship education being mandatory in schools. What else?I

1:30:05 > 1:30:13also think churches can really help. Why not? I go to a fantastic church

1:30:13 > 1:30:19in central London. It's got an amazing youth culture. It's got so

1:30:19 > 1:30:23many youth. I think it's really important that we are supporting the

1:30:23 > 1:30:26next generation, building into the next generation exactly what you are

1:30:26 > 1:30:32saying. I also help out at a school. Safeguarding is fantastic. We also

1:30:32 > 1:30:35do a programme with my church whizzes empowering women, giving

1:30:35 > 1:30:43them an opportunity to speak about young girls and women, for them to

1:30:43 > 1:30:46be able to speak out about something that may have happened in the life,

1:30:46 > 1:30:52Mac to address issues and empower them.

1:30:52 > 1:30:58What else?I am actually a born again Christian myself. The whole

1:30:58 > 1:31:07community, we have no morals...Come on, we can't have these sweeping

1:31:07 > 1:31:12generalisations.We don't. People on the street, we talk about sexual

1:31:12 > 1:31:17harassment, I go out and help daily. I don't see anyone doing that. No

1:31:17 > 1:31:20one has a heart and looks at the women or the little kids on the

1:31:20 > 1:31:24street, they are getting abused every day.That's not true.It is

1:31:24 > 1:31:31true.I have a problem when someone starts saying religion is the

1:31:31 > 1:31:37solution. This is not about good people who are religious. Good

1:31:37 > 1:31:45people versus bad people. I have had a woman in a pub shove her hand down

1:31:45 > 1:31:53my trousers saying, "I want to know how big it is."Victoria...It is

1:31:53 > 1:31:57about terminology as well. I read on Facebook and forgive me for not

1:31:57 > 1:32:00remembering everything, but I am pregnant, so you know, I can't

1:32:00 > 1:32:06remember all things! Basically it said something we always say this

1:32:06 > 1:32:10many women were raped, we don't see or this many men were raped, they

1:32:10 > 1:32:14don't say they were this many rapists, we say this many people

1:32:14 > 1:32:19were a victim of domestic violence, we don't say this many people were

1:32:19 > 1:32:22perpetrators of domestic violence. The onus is on the victim and you

1:32:22 > 1:32:27have only got to look in the media and there are a lot of men in the

1:32:27 > 1:32:34papers who have been in the media for domestic violence. There are a

1:32:34 > 1:32:38lot of women who have had domestic violence thrown at them and they are

1:32:38 > 1:32:44not working.Can ha can society do? We have talked about employment

1:32:44 > 1:32:50legislation. What else in terms of society?I think it is an

1:32:50 > 1:32:53attitudinal shift. It is about representing ourselves and others

1:32:53 > 1:32:58and where I will go with what was being said, we seem to be drawing

1:32:58 > 1:33:04more and more into the individual and less about helping each other.

1:33:04 > 1:33:08What would help in the abuse case is the people who observe, Harvey

1:33:08 > 1:33:16Weinstein, speak out, say something, challenge it.A viewer says, "The

1:33:16 > 1:33:18sexual harassment stories on your programme today, thank you for

1:33:18 > 1:33:21continuing the conversation so that hopefully this kind of harassment

1:33:21 > 1:33:25comes to an end." Jane, "Delighted that your programme is highlighting

1:33:25 > 1:33:30this. I'm 58 and I have been subjected to inappropriate behaviour

1:33:30 > 1:33:34at work and outside from the age of 15. I haven't got any idea of how

1:33:34 > 1:33:39many times in total. I've stopped counting. I have put it down to the

1:33:39 > 1:33:46perils of being a female." Kayla "This is about men in powerful jobs

1:33:46 > 1:33:52who believe they can do what they want without repercussions." Another

1:33:52 > 1:33:59viewer says "Ke need it hear stories." A viewer says, "I am

1:33:59 > 1:34:07annoyed that Ella and Clare aren't challenged as challenging claims as

1:34:07 > 1:34:11a feeding frenzy."I wanted to go become to the point of men not

1:34:11 > 1:34:15knowing what is and isn't harassment. It reminded me that I

1:34:15 > 1:34:19have forgotten about this situation. A few years ago when I was working

1:34:19 > 1:34:24for someone and I used to have to walk to work, it was quite a long

1:34:24 > 1:34:29way, and I would regularly get followed home, I would be

1:34:29 > 1:34:35constantly, you know, harassed by certain men and I'm, I was quite a

1:34:35 > 1:34:40feisty person when I was younger more than I am now, I would be like

1:34:40 > 1:34:44no, no, I would play every single card, nice, but no thank you, and I

1:34:44 > 1:34:47would be like can you please just back off, I'm not interested, I'm

1:34:47 > 1:34:52going to call the police, get off my case to the point where myself and

1:34:52 > 1:34:59norm work colleague, a female one, were actually chased to work by this

1:34:59 > 1:35:04particular man, the same guy. He ran after us for what reason, I don't

1:35:04 > 1:35:08know to, get our attention, to whatever it was that he wanted to

1:35:08 > 1:35:13do, and we both managed to get back to work separately this is. And we

1:35:13 > 1:35:18called the police because this was not OK. And the police were like,

1:35:18 > 1:35:23"We can't do anything other than just tell him it's not OK." He

1:35:23 > 1:35:27didn't know what he was doing was not OK.Did the police speak to him

1:35:27 > 1:35:32or not?They said that's inappropriate and he was like,

1:35:32 > 1:35:36"Well, it's not in my books and that was it.It is not a crime to run

1:35:36 > 1:35:44after women, sadly.No.They spoke to him. They did something.To

1:35:44 > 1:35:48defend the feeding frenzy point. I think it has got to this level of

1:35:48 > 1:35:53hysteria and it is unfair to say that us talking politically about

1:35:53 > 1:35:57what this thing has become larger than Weinstein, it has become a

1:35:57 > 1:36:01moral panic and to assess that politically is not victim blaming,

1:36:01 > 1:36:05it is not saying that you should point at anyone who has a experience

1:36:05 > 1:36:10and say you are lying, we don't know, that's why it is an accusation

1:36:10 > 1:36:12or allegation, rather than a statement of fact. We are saying to

1:36:12 > 1:36:17women, that it is more effective to not say anything and po commence on

1:36:17 > 1:36:21social media because this is a social media phenomenon at the

1:36:21 > 1:36:25moment the Me Too thing rather than what the lady said and have it out

1:36:25 > 1:36:29at the time. Everyone is different. Of course, everyone is different. I

1:36:29 > 1:36:33have got a hard neck and no one will try anything on with me. That's the

1:36:33 > 1:36:38woman I am.How can you say that That is not any better or worse than

1:36:38 > 1:36:43a shy woman. That's personality. None of us brought this on

1:36:43 > 1:36:47ourselves. I think what you have said is out of order.I'm trying to

1:36:47 > 1:36:55make a distinction and say we should empower women.Feeding frenzy, op

1:36:55 > 1:36:58opportunityist, jumping on the bandwagon...Let her finish.I'm

1:36:58 > 1:37:01saying that I really want to make a strong point about this because I

1:37:01 > 1:37:06have had it up to there and I think most women have. We should make a

1:37:06 > 1:37:11point that women should feel empowered and men to stand up to bad

1:37:11 > 1:37:16behaviour when it happens. Roll back to the 60s and 70s when women were

1:37:16 > 1:37:22truly having a hard time, how dhaid change? It changed because people

1:37:22 > 1:37:25changed it because women stood up for themselves. That has to happen.

1:37:25 > 1:37:29I would like to say, OK, let's not argue about this, we need to move

1:37:29 > 1:37:36forward. So statementses like feeding frenzy, he is an

1:37:36 > 1:37:38opportunist, jmping on the bandwagon, they are not helpful in

1:37:38 > 1:37:43moving forward. If you think it is hysterical, we need to audit this.

1:37:43 > 1:37:49We need to know statistics. So there needs to be a place where people can

1:37:49 > 1:37:55report all of these incidents from touching on the knee to full rape,

1:37:55 > 1:37:58whatever, all of them are violations. All of them are non

1:37:58 > 1:38:06consensual. All of them are abuse of power.Let her finish.People need

1:38:06 > 1:38:09to audit that. We need to have a national place where people can be

1:38:09 > 1:38:13heard and listened to and authorities need to get involved.

1:38:13 > 1:38:18Can I very, important for that, the reason why I'm critical about the Me

1:38:18 > 1:38:22Too thing, I was looking into it and one of the tweets that was popular

1:38:22 > 1:38:26that I saw said reminder, women who don't say Me Too have also had

1:38:26 > 1:38:29sexual harassment experiences. Victims don't owe you their store

1:38:29 > 1:38:34Chris. Some of the tweets were just Me Too, there is no fact, there is

1:38:34 > 1:38:39no experience. If Me Too isn't suggestive of how many it is, how

1:38:39 > 1:38:44can we quantify it. It is a social media phenomenon at the moment.One

1:38:44 > 1:38:48of the dangers about the audit point, there is a list circulating

1:38:48 > 1:38:52of anonymous allegations against people, not proven and...This is to

1:38:52 > 1:38:57do with MPs.To do with MPs, but there has been one in the publishing

1:38:57 > 1:39:02and arts world in America. People are named as being perpetrators and

1:39:02 > 1:39:09one of the great gains of modernity is you have innocent until proven

1:39:09 > 1:39:12guilty and I am worried about a situation where and it is

1:39:12 > 1:39:16interesting about the kind of women should be believed, because actually

1:39:16 > 1:39:20it depends what the woman is saying. Julia Hartley-Brewer by the way, a

1:39:20 > 1:39:24journalist who has been all over the newspapers because apparently

1:39:24 > 1:39:28somebody touched her knee. She said, "I didn't find it inappropriate. I

1:39:28 > 1:39:31told him goat off. He didn't do it. No problem. She was all over the

1:39:31 > 1:39:36newspapers. And I have been supporting her right to say, I'm all

1:39:36 > 1:39:41right with it. And then suddenly you get told that you are using the

1:39:41 > 1:39:45wrong narrative. You said what you want is women to say only the one

1:39:45 > 1:39:50thing, but when women maybe Ella or Julia or other women say a different

1:39:50 > 1:39:54thing suddenly we are the wrong kind of women, giving the wrong kind of

1:39:54 > 1:40:03story.I'm going to pause there. I'm going to try and sum up what we have

1:40:03 > 1:40:05discussed in the last hour-and-a-half, do you give me,

1:40:05 > 1:40:10good luck. I'm going to need that. It is not just women. That's, we

1:40:10 > 1:40:17have made that clear today. We have heard some quite astonishing in some

1:40:17 > 1:40:20cases, utterly grim testimony from you and I thank you for being open

1:40:20 > 1:40:24and talking about the kind of experiences. We have heard strongly

1:40:24 > 1:40:27that from some people that women should empower women to speak out

1:40:27 > 1:40:31now and to not worry about that, but we have discussed that it it is down

1:40:31 > 1:40:34the nature of your personality as Ella said, as Suzy suggested as

1:40:34 > 1:40:38well. We have talked about relationship

1:40:38 > 1:40:41education in school, should it be mandatory, would that really make a

1:40:41 > 1:40:49difference? Respect lessons, audit, and changes for legislation for

1:40:49 > 1:40:52people who are self-employed who have nowhere to go when they have a

1:40:52 > 1:40:56complaint to make. Generational divide. We talked about briefly.I

1:40:56 > 1:41:04don't think there is. I'm 43. I'm, I've hardly had any sexual partners

1:41:04 > 1:41:09and I'm as timid as can being, I love a bit of banter, I love that,

1:41:09 > 1:41:16but if a man sends me a picture of his penis, I can't believe I have

1:41:16 > 1:41:23said it so many times or if they rammed me up against a wall in a

1:41:23 > 1:41:30hotel, I'm timid.This happened to me. I was a reasonably feisty nurse

1:41:30 > 1:41:34who would nurse patients, go to case conferences, stand up in court, when

1:41:34 > 1:41:40I needed to for a patient, this happened to me. I didn't call it out

1:41:40 > 1:41:45at the time to him. I have called it out within the workplace. This has

1:41:45 > 1:41:49changed me significantly. For most people that know me, this is the

1:41:49 > 1:41:53first they know of what has happened to me. I'm off work for two years

1:41:53 > 1:41:56and nobody knows why. That is what is happening.Well, thank you for

1:41:56 > 1:42:00telling us today. Thank you. Thank you for giving up so much of your

1:42:00 > 1:42:12time. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:42:12 > 1:42:20A major report which examines Hillsborough. The report's aim is to

1:42:20 > 1:42:25inform authorities in their handling of current and future disasters,

1:42:25 > 1:42:29with some bereaved relatives saying it could help the victims of the

1:42:29 > 1:42:35Grenfell fire. Our reporter has been to speak to some of the people

1:42:35 > 1:42:38affected by the tragedy.

1:42:38 > 1:42:42It's been nearly 30 years since Hillsborough, but for many

1:42:42 > 1:42:43the memories are still raw.

1:42:43 > 1:42:46Even those who weren't alive when it happened seem

1:42:46 > 1:42:47to understand its significance.

1:42:47 > 1:42:48My mum was...

1:42:48 > 1:42:51She was a real character.

1:42:51 > 1:43:00She was actually from Denmark, and she moved over here in the '60s.

1:43:00 > 1:43:03She was a huge Beatles fan and a Rolling Stones fan.

1:43:03 > 1:43:05She made the connection between the Beatles and Liverpool,

1:43:05 > 1:43:08so she decided that it was Liverpool was the team she was

1:43:08 > 1:43:09going to follow.

1:43:09 > 1:43:11You know, by the time Hillsborough happened,

1:43:11 > 1:43:14we were going to like 40 plus games a season, home and away,

1:43:14 > 1:43:16following Liverpool all over the country.

1:43:16 > 1:43:18It was really you, your brother and your mum.

1:43:18 > 1:43:23Absolutely, it was the three of us, that's what we did as a family.

1:43:23 > 1:43:26But for Liverpool's sold-out FA Cup semifinal in 1989,

1:43:26 > 1:43:31the Shah family split up.

1:43:31 > 1:43:3317-year-old Becky watched the match at home, her mum

1:43:33 > 1:43:39and brother went to Sheffield.

1:43:39 > 1:43:42Shortly before kick-off, a large crowd of fans built up

1:43:42 > 1:43:47outside one end of Hillsborough Stadium.

1:43:47 > 1:43:56An exit gate was opened, and there was a severe crush.

1:43:56 > 1:43:59I just couldn't believe what I saw, and obviously found it very,

1:43:59 > 1:44:01very upsetting, just even, you know, I was upset about my mum,

1:44:01 > 1:44:04but just watching ordinary Liverpool fans, some of them gasping for air,

1:44:04 > 1:44:12some of them having to have the kiss of life.

1:44:12 > 1:44:15And I sat at home and just felt so completely useless.

1:44:15 > 1:44:25And that feeling's never gone away.

1:44:25 > 1:44:28And it was about four o'clock in the morning when a police car

1:44:28 > 1:44:38turned up at my house and told me that my mum...had died.

1:44:40 > 1:44:42Inger Shah was one of 96 men, women and children

1:44:42 > 1:44:46who died at Hillsborough.

1:44:46 > 1:44:50Her ashes were scattered at Anfield, and her two children

1:44:50 > 1:44:53were put into care and were very nearly separated.

1:44:53 > 1:44:57I think it would have been absolutely horrendous,

1:44:57 > 1:45:00on top of the bereavement and the trauma that we'd

1:45:00 > 1:45:02already had to suffer, because of our mum's death

1:45:02 > 1:45:05and a massive national disaster.

1:45:05 > 1:45:09To then have to be split up from your only relative

1:45:09 > 1:45:12is just surely too much.

1:45:12 > 1:45:14Obviously, you know, we had some support from the social services.

1:45:14 > 1:45:17My brother had some treatment for his trauma.

1:45:17 > 1:45:19But it was by no means enough.

1:45:19 > 1:45:23Now a report which aims to reveal the experiences of people bereaved

1:45:23 > 1:45:26by Hillsborough is being released.

1:45:26 > 1:45:29This new report by the former Bishop of Liverpool -

1:45:29 > 1:45:33how important is that for the Hillsborough families?

1:45:33 > 1:45:37I think that's incredibly important.

1:45:37 > 1:45:38# Walk on.

1:45:38 > 1:45:39# Walk on.

1:45:39 > 1:45:41# With hope in your heart...#.

1:45:41 > 1:45:45There are times when I do feel exhausted, I feel

1:45:45 > 1:45:47absolutely shattered, and one of those times

1:45:47 > 1:45:51was after the inquest, where I woke up the next day

1:45:51 > 1:45:56and felt that all of this, over all these years,

1:45:56 > 1:46:00has taken years off my life.

1:46:00 > 1:46:03And that's why this report is so important.

1:46:03 > 1:46:06I want to know why it's taken the Government 28 years to come

1:46:06 > 1:46:16and ask us what life has been like for us.

1:46:16 > 1:46:17Over this period.

1:46:17 > 1:46:19I think that's absolutely disgraceful.

1:46:19 > 1:46:25It's taken them 28 years.

1:46:25 > 1:46:29This new report focuses on those who lost loved ones at Hillsborough,

1:46:29 > 1:46:34but Becky says the impact of the tragedy goes much further.

1:46:34 > 1:46:37From the survivors who suffered life-changing injuries that day

1:46:37 > 1:46:40to the campaigners who've been supporting all of the

1:46:40 > 1:46:47victims from the start.

1:46:47 > 1:46:51What people need to realise, we're going back to 1989,

1:46:51 > 1:46:53so even the term post-traumatic stress wasn't in common

1:46:53 > 1:46:56usage, as it is now.

1:46:56 > 1:46:59We know of survivors that have committed suicide

1:46:59 > 1:47:02because they couldn't live with the trauma they've

1:47:02 > 1:47:06experienced over time.

1:47:06 > 1:47:08Initially, in the hospitals and everything, obviously,

1:47:08 > 1:47:11there was support - when I had to learn to walk again

1:47:11 > 1:47:16and, you know, talk.

1:47:16 > 1:47:20Once out of hospital, nothing, nothing at all.

1:47:20 > 1:47:23When you say "nothing at all", does that include no counselling?

1:47:23 > 1:47:27No counselling, no nothing, just...

1:47:27 > 1:47:28Just left.

1:47:28 > 1:47:31Basically.

1:47:31 > 1:47:33I've got like a brain injury, you see?

1:47:33 > 1:47:42And it's a complex one, so each day it's, em...

1:47:42 > 1:47:45It's just really difficult, isn't it, yeah?

1:47:45 > 1:47:47Take your time.

1:47:47 > 1:47:51I think the thing for Gill is that, like a lot of survivors,

1:47:51 > 1:47:54she stayed in the background.

1:47:54 > 1:47:58She stayed in the background when people should have been

1:47:58 > 1:48:03shouting for support for her, and that is the crucial factor,

1:48:03 > 1:48:06because we know, I mean it is a fact that when people receive help

1:48:06 > 1:48:11in the immediate aftermath, they stand a much greater chance

1:48:11 > 1:48:14of recovery, and that just didn't happen after Hillsborough.

1:48:14 > 1:48:18And you know, multiply Gill by hundreds of people,

1:48:18 > 1:48:22potentially thousands, and you begin to get the picture.

1:48:22 > 1:48:25I myself have suffered terribly with mental-health problems,

1:48:25 > 1:48:29with post-traumatic stress and survivor's guilt

1:48:29 > 1:48:35as a result of the disaster.

1:48:35 > 1:48:38And it's really impacted on me, I've lost my job during the inquest,

1:48:38 > 1:48:42and I've almost been sectioned.

1:48:42 > 1:48:45Do you think that if Hillsborough happened today, the reaction

1:48:45 > 1:48:49and the support there would be different?

1:48:49 > 1:48:53I think it would be different, but it still leaves a lot to be

1:48:53 > 1:48:56desired, and I suppose the most obvious comparison to make

1:48:56 > 1:49:01at present would be the Grenfell Tower fire.

1:49:01 > 1:49:04We went down to Grenfell very shortly after the disaster,

1:49:04 > 1:49:08just to say that the most important thing at the moment,

1:49:08 > 1:49:12apart from adequate rehousing, is specialist trauma counselling,

1:49:12 > 1:49:15and if you can learn anything, it's that this must be put in place.

1:49:15 > 1:49:18And I think that is still a contentious issue from people

1:49:18 > 1:49:20we know around Grenfell.

1:49:20 > 1:49:23All these years later, we still have the situation

1:49:23 > 1:49:27where survivors of the disaster are being excluded.

1:49:27 > 1:49:31What I think is the good thing about Grenfell is that people

1:49:31 > 1:49:34are shouting out about it, and they are saying, "We will not

1:49:34 > 1:49:37wait, we will not wait 28 years, we will not be like Hillsborough."

1:49:37 > 1:49:40And that's the positive, and when we hear that,

1:49:40 > 1:49:42we're always heartened by that.

1:49:42 > 1:49:45This report is being released.

1:49:45 > 1:49:46Is that it for the fight?

1:49:46 > 1:49:51Do you feel that you've reached a conclusion?

1:49:51 > 1:49:54Obviously, we welcome anything which takes things a step further,

1:49:54 > 1:49:59but this is a long road that people have been on for many years.

1:49:59 > 1:50:01The legacy of Hillsborough has to be a better society,

1:50:01 > 1:50:04because it's not just about a report to be put on shelves,

1:50:04 > 1:50:14it's about people cannot be treated like this.

1:50:15 > 1:50:18Anna Collison reporting. The Hillsborough review is released at

1:50:18 > 1:50:2011:30am.

1:50:20 > 1:50:22US President Donald Trump has ordered the Department

1:50:22 > 1:50:25of Homeland Security to "step up" vetting measures, after a deadly

1:50:25 > 1:50:26truck attack in New York.

1:50:26 > 1:50:29Eight people were killed and 11 injured when the driver of the truck

1:50:29 > 1:50:32hit people on a cycle path in Lower Manhattan.

1:50:32 > 1:50:35Five Argentines were among the dead.

1:50:35 > 1:50:36Here's how events unfolded.

1:50:36 > 1:50:43Some of what you see will be disturbing.

1:50:49 > 1:50:55Something told me that something bigger happened.

1:51:04 > 1:51:11A male driving a pick-up truck entered the bicycle path, began

1:51:11 > 1:51:17driving southbound, striking a number of pedestrians and bicycles.

1:51:17 > 1:51:22The truck collided with a school bus, injuring two adults and two

1:51:22 > 1:51:27children. After the collision, the driver of the truck, a 29-year-old

1:51:27 > 1:51:31male, exited the vehicle brandishing two handguns.

1:51:31 > 1:51:38We see this guy and he had guns. I think he had a beard maybe. And

1:51:38 > 1:51:42everyone was like, run, get back in the school. We ran in and hid behind

1:51:42 > 1:51:46the locker.

1:51:57 > 1:52:00Oh my God!

1:52:24 > 1:52:27Let me be clear based on the information we have at the moment

1:52:27 > 1:52:35this was an act of terror. And a particularly cowardly act of terror.

1:52:35 > 1:52:39Aimed at innocent civilians, aimed at people going about their lives

1:52:39 > 1:52:42with no idea of what was about to hit them.

1:52:42 > 1:52:44We can speak now to Professor Scott Lucas,

1:52:44 > 1:52:46Professor of American Studies at the University of Birmingham.

1:52:46 > 1:52:48Kamran Bokhari, a senior analyst with Geopolitical Futures,

1:52:48 > 1:52:50a private intelligience firm based in Houston.

1:52:50 > 1:52:51And Margaret Gilmore, a senior associate fellow,

1:52:51 > 1:52:58at the Royal United Services Institute.

1:52:58 > 1:53:02Margaret Gilmore, whatever you do, you can't stop this kind of attack

1:53:02 > 1:53:06using a vehicle as a weapon if somebody is determined to use it?

1:53:06 > 1:53:13No, you can't, not here. There is a lot you can do to mitigate against

1:53:13 > 1:53:19it. We have heavy duty bollards to stop a lorry getting into areas

1:53:19 > 1:53:24where there are lots of people. We have pedestrianised around major

1:53:24 > 1:53:28busy railway stations. Buildings like the BBC have been

1:53:28 > 1:53:31pedestrianised to stop vehicles getting close. You can mitigate

1:53:31 > 1:53:36against it. But the terrorist who wants to will get through. In the

1:53:36 > 1:53:40case of the UK we have seen this year that they have found that they

1:53:40 > 1:53:44could actually mind the pavement on London Bridge. Somebody else mounted

1:53:44 > 1:53:46the pavement in march along Westminster Bridge. They will always

1:53:46 > 1:53:59find a way. A huge amount of work is going on to try to stop this. That

1:53:59 > 1:54:02doesn't take away from the horror of every attack that does get through.

1:54:02 > 1:54:05Some things can be done but you cannot guarantee stopping

1:54:05 > 1:54:12everything.Professor Lucas, the driver of this vehicle is in

1:54:12 > 1:54:19custody. He is from Uzbekistan, we are told, which is not on Donald

1:54:19 > 1:54:25Trump's flight plan?Uzbekistan would not have been affected even if

1:54:25 > 1:54:31the Muslim ban had been imposed by the US courts. He has been in the US

1:54:31 > 1:54:35since 2010. Extreme vetting doesn't apply to people already in the

1:54:35 > 1:54:38United States. Donald Trump's statement is political theatre. If

1:54:38 > 1:54:44you were to implement extreme vetting to stop any attack, you have

1:54:44 > 1:54:48to vet people from every country in the world, not just Muslims or

1:54:48 > 1:54:52people with beards. It is not a practical system. The previous

1:54:52 > 1:54:55comments you have heard about sensible enforcement, monitoring

1:54:55 > 1:55:00people who may be a danger and trying to mitigate attacks, that is

1:55:00 > 1:55:03the way forward rather than this kind of political over the top and

1:55:03 > 1:55:08divisive comments President Trump has made.What you think about what

1:55:08 > 1:55:12Scott Lucas has said, that you needs to vet everyone, not just men with

1:55:12 > 1:55:18beards?I agree with Scott. There is just no way, I cannot think of a

1:55:18 > 1:55:24mechanism in which you can vet people like that. I think the

1:55:24 > 1:55:29president, when he is saying this, is speaking to his base whom he has

1:55:29 > 1:55:32promised during the campaign that he will crack down on illegal

1:55:32 > 1:55:37immigration, refugee flow and terrorists trying to get into the

1:55:37 > 1:55:45country. But impracticality I just don't see how we can get to people,

1:55:45 > 1:55:50at least not everyone of them. The difficulty is that when these people

1:55:50 > 1:55:55come aim, they are usually not radicalised at that point. If they

1:55:55 > 1:55:57are radicalised, the chances are they are on some monitoring list.

1:55:57 > 1:56:05They are on some transfer list. The authorities are looking into them.

1:56:05 > 1:56:10This individual appears to have been radicalised at some point during his

1:56:10 > 1:56:16stay. We don't know when. It is not a case of exit and entry. It is a

1:56:16 > 1:56:19case of how you prevent people from getting radicalised inside the

1:56:19 > 1:56:25country. Margaret Gilmore, it appears there

1:56:25 > 1:56:30was a note inside this vehicle with some link to Isis. The police are

1:56:30 > 1:56:33suggesting he was a lone wolf. It is too early potentially to say that,

1:56:33 > 1:56:39isn't it?Probably not too early. We know a lot about this type of event.

1:56:39 > 1:56:46It looks like it was spontaneous. In a country rife with guns he didn't

1:56:46 > 1:56:53get his hands on any guns. That gives away quite a bit. I would like

1:56:53 > 1:57:00to pick up a point about the response. Nothing can take away this

1:57:00 > 1:57:05man was a terrorist who murdered a people and maimed others. But the

1:57:05 > 1:57:10response tells us quite a bit about American policy and the Trump's

1:57:10 > 1:57:21regime. -- regime policy. Get tough on immigration, go back to countries

1:57:21 > 1:57:27with Muslim populations... We know what the answer to that is. But when

1:57:27 > 1:57:33we saw recently a wide wealthy middle American with an arsenal of

1:57:33 > 1:57:40weapons kill 58 people in Las Vegas, there was very little policy

1:57:40 > 1:57:43discussion afterwards. And virtually no change whatsoever on the gun

1:57:43 > 1:57:46policy. If we looked at the statistics are one night he would

1:57:46 > 1:57:50find that more people would have been killed overnight in gun crime

1:57:50 > 1:57:54in the US than happened in this appalling event. That doesn't, as I

1:57:54 > 1:57:58say coming in any way detract from the horror of this event.

1:57:58 > 1:58:03Is that a fair point, Scott Lucas?I totally agree. If you are really

1:58:03 > 1:58:07talking about the increase in violence you have to approach

1:58:07 > 1:58:13violence by all people, whatever their religion or race. Trump

1:58:13 > 1:58:17supporters were not back gun control but they will back harsh measures

1:58:17 > 1:58:22against those they consider to be dangerous, unfortunately, Muslims.

1:58:22 > 1:58:27Thank you for your company today. On the programme tomorrow, the therapy

1:58:27 > 1:58:31industry and how it is regulated. See you tomorrow.