21/11/2017

0:00:07 > 0:00:09Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

0:00:09 > 0:00:11welcome to the programme.

0:00:11 > 0:00:15Our top story today, senior government ministers have

0:00:15 > 0:00:17agreed the UK should offer more money for its divorce

0:00:17 > 0:00:26from the EU, but only if talks about trade start soon.

0:00:26 > 0:00:30As Brexiteer is on the backbenches threatened trouble over the bigger

0:00:30 > 0:00:33divorce Bill, Brexiteers in the cabinet give the thumbs up to more

0:00:33 > 0:00:34money for Brussels.

0:00:34 > 0:00:37Also on the programme - a group of outsourced workers

0:00:37 > 0:00:40at a London University are issuing what could be a landmark legal claim

0:00:40 > 0:00:44to establish the "joint employer" principle in UK law.

0:00:44 > 0:00:49The university is the entity that essentially decides what their pay

0:00:49 > 0:00:52and terms and conditions are going to be, and unless they can

0:00:52 > 0:00:54negotiate directly with the university,

0:00:54 > 0:00:56they can't really negotiate over their pay and terms and conditions.

0:00:56 > 0:00:59If successful, it could lead to improved terms and conditions

0:00:59 > 0:01:03for some 3.3 million workers in the UK.

0:01:03 > 0:01:06And three survivors of genocide join forces to stand up to extremism

0:01:06 > 0:01:10in an exclusive interview on this programme.

0:01:10 > 0:01:13We'll hear their stories in around 15 minutes' time.

0:01:24 > 0:01:26Hello.

0:01:26 > 0:01:28Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11.

0:01:28 > 0:01:30We're going to talk about Black Friday later,

0:01:30 > 0:01:33which as you may know, is no longer just a day

0:01:33 > 0:01:34but more like several days.

0:01:34 > 0:01:35Christmas retailers are doing their utmost

0:01:35 > 0:01:41to lure you in.

0:01:41 > 0:01:45Despite it only being the 21st of November, where I live, some houses

0:01:45 > 0:01:49already have their Christmas lights out the front. Fairy lights are on

0:01:49 > 0:01:54the front of their homes. Why, is my question. It is the 21st of

0:01:54 > 0:01:57November. RU one of those households. Please tell me you have

0:01:57 > 0:02:02done this. You are definitely in danger of beating too soon. You can

0:02:02 > 0:02:04send me photographs, too.

0:02:04 > 0:02:07Use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE and if you text, you will be charged

0:02:07 > 0:02:08at the standard network rate.

0:02:08 > 0:02:10A little later in the programme, we'll hear

0:02:10 > 0:02:13from the British explorer Benedict Allen, who's back

0:02:13 > 0:02:16in the UK after being rescued from the jungle in Papua New Guinea

0:02:16 > 0:02:23where he was trying to reach a little-known tribe.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Watch his first TV interview after 10am.

0:02:25 > 0:02:27Our top story today.

0:02:27 > 0:02:34The BBC understands that senior cabinet

0:02:34 > 0:02:36ministers have agreed Britain should increase its financial offer

0:02:36 > 0:02:39to the EU as the UK leaves in 2019.

0:02:39 > 0:02:42But only of member states move on to discussing trade. Theresa May met

0:02:42 > 0:02:44colleagues including Michael Gove Boris Johnson last night and is

0:02:44 > 0:02:51expected to make a new offer to the EU during talks later this week.

0:02:51 > 0:02:54Let's get more from our political guru Norman Smith in Westminster.

0:02:54 > 0:02:59So Mrs may has managed to find some kind of compromise between the

0:02:59 > 0:03:03Brexiteers in the cabinet and remains.There must be many mornings

0:03:03 > 0:03:08when she wakes up thinking, "Oh, my gosh," but this morning she must be

0:03:08 > 0:03:11feeling chipper because she seems to have bound in the big beasts of

0:03:11 > 0:03:16Brexit in the Cabinet to agree her in backing for more money to leave

0:03:16 > 0:03:21the EU and that was by no means a given because the Tory backbenchers

0:03:21 > 0:03:24are up in arms, describing it as a ransom and we should not be paying

0:03:24 > 0:03:27ransom money to leave the EU and it is possible Boris Johnson and

0:03:27 > 0:03:31Michael Gove could have decided to ride the backbenches and torpedo Mrs

0:03:31 > 0:03:37May's move to give more cash to get the trade talks going. Instead, they

0:03:37 > 0:03:42have said OK, we will pay more money. A couple of conditions

0:03:42 > 0:03:47attached, though. One, they want it to be absolutely guaranteed that the

0:03:47 > 0:03:52EU will respond by saying, "Fine, we will now move on in the Brexit

0:03:52 > 0:03:57negotiations to discuss trade". Secondly, they are saying that we

0:03:57 > 0:04:01must not agree a final sum until the last minute when we can actually see

0:04:01 > 0:04:05the sort of trade deal we are going to get and if we don't like it, we

0:04:05 > 0:04:11take the money off the table. For Mrs May, good results so far, she's

0:04:11 > 0:04:15got the Brexiteers on board but in terms of the offer, still lots of

0:04:15 > 0:04:19conditions attached.Norman, for the moment, thank you. More on that

0:04:19 > 0:04:20later.

0:04:20 > 0:04:23Rebecca Jones is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

0:04:23 > 0:04:25of the rest of the day's news.

0:04:25 > 0:04:27Good morning.

0:04:27 > 0:04:29The governing Zanu-PF party in Zimbabwe is expected to start

0:04:29 > 0:04:33impeachment proceedings against Rober Mugabe today.

0:04:33 > 0:04:36He is accused of failing to uphold the constitution

0:04:36 > 0:04:41and of giving his wife, Grace, too much power.

0:04:41 > 0:04:44Zimbabwe's former vice president, who was sacked by President Mugabe,

0:04:44 > 0:04:47has warned him to resign immediately or face humiliation by Zimbabweans.

0:04:47 > 0:04:49Shingai Nyoka reports.

0:04:49 > 0:04:52Within days, the era of President Robert Mugabe

0:04:52 > 0:04:56could finally be over.

0:04:56 > 0:05:01Zanu-PF already has the two-thirds majority required to remove him,

0:05:01 > 0:05:03but loyalty is not guaranteed here, and they've courted

0:05:03 > 0:05:12the opposition to support the motion just in case.

0:05:12 > 0:05:15We expect the motion to be moved tomorrow.

0:05:15 > 0:05:20The committee to be set up tomorrow. Because the charges are so clear, we

0:05:20 > 0:05:24expect that by Wednesday, we should be able to vote in parliament.

0:05:24 > 0:05:26The military, which took over the country last week,

0:05:26 > 0:05:28appears to have a parallel process under way.

0:05:28 > 0:05:30They say the long-time leader is holding talks

0:05:30 > 0:05:32with his sacked vice-president, Emmerson Mnangagwa, to map out

0:05:32 > 0:05:33an amicable way forward.

0:05:33 > 0:05:35The sacking of Mnangagwa, a military ally, ignited the takeover.

0:05:35 > 0:05:39On Sunday, Zanu-PF fired Mugabe as its leader and installed

0:05:39 > 0:05:43Mnangagwa in his place.

0:05:43 > 0:05:48The Zimbabwean defence and security services are encouraged

0:05:48 > 0:05:52by new developments which include contact between the president

0:05:52 > 0:05:56and the former vice-president, comrade Emmerson Mnangagwa,

0:05:56 > 0:06:00who is expected in the country shortly.

0:06:00 > 0:06:03Thereafter, the nation will be advised of the outcome

0:06:03 > 0:06:06of the talks between the two.

0:06:06 > 0:06:09But the President remains in charge, even though he is still

0:06:09 > 0:06:12under military guard.

0:06:12 > 0:06:14Whatever the outcomes of the two processes,

0:06:14 > 0:06:21his leadership is not likely to last much longer.

0:06:21 > 0:06:23Shingai Nyoka, BBC News, Harare.

0:06:23 > 0:06:26Teenager Gaia Pope had "struggled" with health issues before her death,

0:06:26 > 0:06:27according to her father.

0:06:27 > 0:06:30Police are treating the 19-year-old's death

0:06:30 > 0:06:35as "unexplained" after her body was found in a field

0:06:35 > 0:06:39in Dorset on Saturday.

0:06:39 > 0:06:41Police released three people who were arrested

0:06:41 > 0:06:42on suspicion of her murder.

0:06:42 > 0:06:43They will face no further action.

0:06:43 > 0:06:48Iranian President Hassan Rouhani declared the end of Islamic State

0:06:48 > 0:06:55on Tuesday, in an address broadcast live on state TV.

0:06:55 > 0:06:58Iran has been part of a coalition with the Syria now the and Russia in

0:06:58 > 0:07:04the fight against IS for several years.

0:07:04 > 0:07:06More than 1,000 members of Iran's Revolutionary Guards

0:07:06 > 0:07:08have been killed in Syria and Iraq.

0:07:08 > 0:07:10The American talk show host, Charlie Rose, has apologised

0:07:10 > 0:07:12for what he called "inappropriate behaviour" after allegations

0:07:12 > 0:07:14of sexual harassment.

0:07:14 > 0:07:17His various shows have been suspended, following a piece

0:07:17 > 0:07:19in the Washington Post in which eight women

0:07:19 > 0:07:25accused him of harassment.

0:07:25 > 0:07:32Staff employed by the outsourcing company Cordant are asking a

0:07:32 > 0:07:35tribunal to rule that they have the right to negotiate better terms and

0:07:35 > 0:07:37conditions with the University of London, where they work. The

0:07:37 > 0:07:42landmark case has implications for more than 3 million workers in the

0:07:42 > 0:07:44UK's business services industry who are hired through facilities

0:07:44 > 0:07:49companies. The university says it does not employ any of the workers

0:07:49 > 0:07:53and does not accept their concept of joint employment.

0:07:53 > 0:07:55TV presenter Paul Hollywood has accused his former

0:07:55 > 0:07:59Bake Off colleagues - including fellow judge, Mary Berry -

0:07:59 > 0:08:02of "abandoning" the show.

0:08:02 > 0:08:04Mary Berry, along with presenters Mel and Sue, left the programme

0:08:04 > 0:08:08when it moved to Channel 4.

0:08:08 > 0:08:10In an interview with the Radio Times, Hollywood said

0:08:10 > 0:08:12the criticism he received after his decision to stay

0:08:12 > 0:08:16with the show was "not fun" and that he felt he "became the most

0:08:16 > 0:08:21hated man in the country".

0:08:21 > 0:08:23Finally, watch this.

0:08:23 > 0:08:25A camera operator who waited 40 minutes to film a stadium demolition

0:08:25 > 0:08:28has been thwarted at the last moment by some unfortunate bus scheduling.

0:08:28 > 0:08:31The Georgia Dome in Atlanta, which hosted the Super Bowl

0:08:31 > 0:08:34and the Olympics, was reduced to rubble by a controlled demolition,

0:08:34 > 0:08:36but one spectator missed the crucial moment.

0:08:56 > 0:09:02Get out of the way, Bath!

0:09:18 > 0:09:20You really couldn't make it up!

0:09:20 > 0:09:22That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

0:09:22 > 0:09:24More at 9.30am.

0:09:24 > 0:09:32I'm amazed he only swore twice. He had one job that day. On the Brexit

0:09:32 > 0:09:34divorce Bill and the factories may has agreed with her cabinet that

0:09:34 > 0:09:38Britain should offer more money in order to get trade talks underway

0:09:38 > 0:09:43with the EU before Britain leaves, Ellie on Facebook says," it should

0:09:43 > 0:09:47cost us. We have been taking more money than we have been putting in

0:09:47 > 0:09:50and then we turn around and tell them to do one? This referendum was

0:09:50 > 0:09:54a complete joke. It's never discussed these kind of conditions

0:09:54 > 0:09:59before they took it to the people". Sean on Facebook says, "Freedom and

0:09:59 > 0:10:04new opportunities cost money". On Christmas lights, LP says, "I can

0:10:04 > 0:10:07put my Christmas decorations up any time I like or not even bother to

0:10:07 > 0:10:12take them down. Victoria, stop being a fascist in deciding what others

0:10:12 > 0:10:17should do because it pleases you". I think that's taking it a bit too

0:10:17 > 0:10:21far, just saying, where I live, in the suburbs, people already have

0:10:21 > 0:10:23their fairy lights outside a house and I'm just confused.

0:10:23 > 0:10:25Do get in touch with us throughout the morning,

0:10:25 > 0:10:28use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE and if you text, you will be charged

0:10:28 > 0:10:29at the standard network rate.

0:10:29 > 0:10:30Let's get some sport.

0:10:30 > 0:10:32Olly Foster is with us this morning and it

0:10:32 > 0:10:38looks as though Mike Ashley has found a buyer for Newcastle United.

0:10:38 > 0:10:42Well, let's take it slowly! Good morning. There is a bid on the table

0:10:42 > 0:10:46which is a start. Remember, you put the club up for sale last month. He

0:10:46 > 0:10:50has been there ten years, a very divisive figure, the fans don't like

0:10:50 > 0:10:53him, not putting enough investment back into the club. They've been

0:10:53 > 0:10:56relegated twice they are currently just about keeping their heads above

0:10:56 > 0:11:00water in the Premier League. But spotted in the crowd after he had

0:11:00 > 0:11:04put the club up to their was Amanda Staveley, who fronts PCP capital

0:11:04 > 0:11:10partners. She was in the crowd, she's incredibly influential, based

0:11:10 > 0:11:13in the Middle East, and she brokered the deal for Sheikh Mansoor and the

0:11:13 > 0:11:20Abu Dhabi family to take over at Manchester City about ten years ago.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23£210 million, they bought Manchester City for and we know what they have

0:11:23 > 0:11:27done since then. The offer that is believed to be on the table is

0:11:27 > 0:11:32somewhere in the region of 300 million, some way short of Mike

0:11:32 > 0:11:36Ashley's asking price of about 380 million. He is looking to triple the

0:11:36 > 0:11:40money he paid to buy Newcastle ten years ago. Remember, he was offering

0:11:40 > 0:11:46a deal to basically by the club on the never-never, kind of a hire

0:11:46 > 0:11:50purchase. He's that desperate to get rid of it. It could be Amanda

0:11:50 > 0:11:55Staveley and her PCP capital partners and possible Middle East

0:11:55 > 0:11:59investors behind that as well. A bid is on the table but we are waiting

0:11:59 > 0:12:06to see what deal if any can be done. The first Ashes Test starts on

0:12:06 > 0:12:10Thursday and lots of the pre-match chat is still about Ben Stokes not

0:12:10 > 0:12:14being there for England.Yes, the England players don't want to be

0:12:14 > 0:12:16talking about Ben Stokes, the match-winning all-rounder who is

0:12:16 > 0:12:21still in this country but he has been doing that, footage surfaced

0:12:21 > 0:12:26recently, in the last 24 hours, on social media, of him bowling and

0:12:26 > 0:12:32batting in the nets at Durham. He is waiting for the police investigation

0:12:32 > 0:12:35into him to conclude the C if he will face any charges for his part

0:12:35 > 0:12:40in a brawl outside a nightclub in Bristol. -- to C of E will face.

0:12:40 > 0:12:43They are trying not to talk about it but when Ben Stokes is doing that,

0:12:43 > 0:12:48seemingly ready to go and join them in Australia should he get the

0:12:48 > 0:12:51chance, of course, there are questions about it and this is

0:12:51 > 0:12:58Alastair Cook's response.Well, you're talking about it.It is a

0:12:58 > 0:13:02news line for us.Of course, and we understand, I understand the game.

0:13:02 > 0:13:08It has been a while since the incident. Certainly as a player, in

0:13:08 > 0:13:12the first couple of weeks after, it was what everyone was talking about,

0:13:12 > 0:13:15it was not great and we pretty much accepted it was unlikely that Ben

0:13:15 > 0:13:19would be here. You can't always pin your hopes on one guy. If there is a

0:13:19 > 0:13:22bonus of him making the trip at some stage, that would be great but I can

0:13:22 > 0:13:26honestly say it has not been spoken about in the changing room. It's no

0:13:26 > 0:13:31good for us to talk about that.We will see, it is overnight Wednesday

0:13:31 > 0:13:34into Thursday that the Test match starts and you will be able to

0:13:34 > 0:13:38follow it on the BBC.An early contender for goal of the season

0:13:38 > 0:13:44scored by Chelsea Blair.Brighton against oak was a draw and this

0:13:44 > 0:13:47Chelsea player joined when he was 12, he is still on their books but

0:13:47 > 0:13:52he has been farmed out to the Dutch first vision, playing for Vitesse,

0:13:52 > 0:13:55has played all season, aged 22 and scored his first goal at the

0:13:55 > 0:14:04weekend. Look at that. Amazing goal! Why doesn't he celebrate? Because

0:14:04 > 0:14:10that was his goalkeeper, and that, Victoria, is an own goal!

0:14:10 > 0:14:18Astonishing. They lost 4-2. De Boer is very well regarded by Chelsea and

0:14:18 > 0:14:26Vitesse but not for that. -- Dabo is well respected.More sport

0:14:26 > 0:14:28throughout the morning.

0:14:28 > 0:14:30This morning, three survivors of genocide have joined forces

0:14:30 > 0:14:32to stand up to extremism in an exclusive interview

0:14:32 > 0:14:36on this programme.

0:14:36 > 0:14:39Let me introduce you to Kemal Pervanic, who survived a

0:14:39 > 0:14:43concentration camp during the Bosnian war.

0:14:43 > 0:14:46The former Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko Mladic will find out

0:14:46 > 0:14:51tomorrow whether he's convicted of crimes against humanity.

0:14:51 > 0:14:53He's accused of committing genocide during that

0:14:53 > 0:14:59conflict of the 1990s.

0:14:59 > 0:15:01Eric Murangwa Eugene lost 35 family members

0:15:01 > 0:15:05in the Rwandan genoicide.

0:15:05 > 0:15:08Between April and June 1994, an estimated 800,000 Rwandans

0:15:08 > 0:15:12were killed in the space of 100 days.

0:15:12 > 0:15:14Most of the dead were Tutsis, and most of those who perpetrated

0:15:14 > 0:15:20the violence were Hutus.

0:15:20 > 0:15:23And Ruth Barnett, who fled Nazi Germany as a child

0:15:23 > 0:15:25on the Kindertransport, an organised rescue effort that took

0:15:25 > 0:15:28place prior to the outbreak of the Second World War,

0:15:28 > 0:15:32taking children from Germany to Britain.

0:15:32 > 0:15:36We're also joined by Adam Wagner, human rights lawyer and founder

0:15:36 > 0:15:39of Rights Info, who's bought the three of them together.

0:15:46 > 0:15:51The nature of what we're going to be discuss will be graphic and raw. Let

0:15:51 > 0:15:58me begin with you Kamal if I may. Tell us about how you came to be in

0:15:58 > 0:16:05a concentration camp in the 1990s? Well, no one ever expects to end up

0:16:05 > 0:16:11in a concentration camp. So, I had a normal life. My family lived in

0:16:11 > 0:16:16rural Bosnia. The community was mixed. The relationships in the

0:16:16 > 0:16:24community were good. Until the second half of the 1980s when former

0:16:24 > 0:16:29Yugoslavia, the country that I was born in, that Bosnia was part of

0:16:29 > 0:16:35from Yugoslavia was experiencing a serious unemployment and certain

0:16:35 > 0:16:39individuals turned up on the political scene and started dividing

0:16:39 > 0:16:44us. They were saying that we could no longer live together because we

0:16:44 > 0:16:52were too different and then not many years later, we had terrible wars

0:16:52 > 0:16:58and the Bosnian War. I ended up in a concentration camp. My village was

0:16:58 > 0:17:05attacked by my neighbours. My former school mates. When I ended up in the

0:17:05 > 0:17:14camp, I recognised so many people, classmates, two teachers, it was

0:17:14 > 0:17:20unimaginable. And when you say you recognised so

0:17:20 > 0:17:23many people, do you mean fellow prisoners, or do you mean people who

0:17:23 > 0:17:27were in control of you and ultimately tortured you?Well,

0:17:27 > 0:17:31whoever happened to be in the region ended up in one of the three camps

0:17:31 > 0:17:35in my town, but also the people who perpetrated that violence against us

0:17:35 > 0:17:41were our neighbours. So, it was very personal. We knew each other. And

0:17:41 > 0:17:48just a couple of years earlier, you know, when I was in high school, I

0:17:48 > 0:17:51could never imagine that one of my favourite high school teachers would

0:17:51 > 0:17:57end up being one of the interrogators and you know, my

0:17:57 > 0:18:03brother was almost killed on his orders.It is unbelievable and

0:18:03 > 0:18:09horrific. Did you ever feel that you could say to him, "You were my

0:18:09 > 0:18:14teacher. I really liked you."I wouldn't dare.No.I wouldn't dare

0:18:14 > 0:18:20look at him in that room because it could have ended my life, but I was

0:18:20 > 0:18:25able to go back to Bosnia some years later and I had a chance to talk to

0:18:25 > 0:18:30him.I'm going to ask you about that in a moment, before I bring in Ruth

0:18:30 > 0:18:33and Eric and Adam, what kind of things did you witness in that

0:18:33 > 0:18:42concentration camp?Lots of gratuitous violence and that

0:18:42 > 0:18:51disturbs me to this day. It just, you never expect that fellow human

0:18:51 > 0:18:55beings, torturing and killing other fellow human beings for pleasure,

0:18:55 > 0:19:00for sport. And they were just ordinary human beings like myself

0:19:00 > 0:19:08and like yourself.And we're seeing pictures of some of them now. I

0:19:08 > 0:19:14wonder if I could bring in you Ruth if I may. You came to Britain aged

0:19:14 > 0:19:19four on the Kindertransport over to the UK from Germany. You came from a

0:19:19 > 0:19:26Jewish family. Tell me what was happening to you and your family and

0:19:26 > 0:19:36your community back then?Well, the Jewish community were used to

0:19:36 > 0:19:39persecution time and again and they simply thought if they kept their

0:19:39 > 0:19:49heads down and didn't make waves, it would pass over, up until the night

0:19:49 > 0:19:56of November, 9th 1938 when in every city, right across Germany and

0:19:56 > 0:20:03Austria, the crowds rioted and smashed up Jewish property and

0:20:03 > 0:20:10Jewish men were arrested and thrown into labour camp. The writing was on

0:20:10 > 0:20:19the wall that it wasn't going to blow over and because of that

0:20:19 > 0:20:27terrible attack, my parents made the very difficult decision to send my

0:20:27 > 0:20:33seven-year-old brother and myself on the trains that were organised and

0:20:33 > 0:20:42later called the Kindertransport to safety in England. We didn't see our

0:20:42 > 0:20:48parents for ten years. We were raised in three foster families and

0:20:48 > 0:20:53a hostel during that time.Your brother, as you said was a few years

0:20:53 > 0:20:59older than you. Do you think you would have survived if it wasn't for

0:20:59 > 0:21:06him?I don't think I would have coped in what felt like the world

0:21:06 > 0:21:12had been ripped away like a carpet from under my feet and I was

0:21:12 > 0:21:18floundering in a totally mad world that made no sense. If I hadn't had

0:21:18 > 0:21:23my seven-year-old brother to make sense of it, for me, even though, of

0:21:23 > 0:21:29course, he didn't know what was going on and a lot of it was

0:21:29 > 0:21:34nonsense, he had a knack of calming me down and of course, I was

0:21:34 > 0:21:40important to him as I represented a link with his parents who had told

0:21:40 > 0:21:46him to look after his little sister. That's how we survived because we

0:21:46 > 0:21:52had each other.Eric, hello. Welcome to the programme.Thank you.You

0:21:52 > 0:21:56were an international footballer when you lived through genocide in

0:21:56 > 0:22:01Rwanda. It claimed at least 35 members of your family, but you

0:22:01 > 0:22:09think it maybe more?Yes, indeed. Yes, when the genocide happened in

0:22:09 > 0:22:16Rwanda I was a football player, playing for alclub which is the

0:22:16 > 0:22:26biggest football club in Rwanda and on the first day of genocide on 7th

0:22:26 > 0:22:34April 1994, I escaped death because one of the soldiers who came into my

0:22:34 > 0:22:46flat where I was living with a friend of mine, to kill us

0:22:46 > 0:22:50recognised me through the photo of my football team and from that

0:22:50 > 0:23:02moment he spared my life and the life of my team-mate and then moved

0:23:02 > 0:23:07from that flat and went to stay with team-mates of mine who were living

0:23:07 > 0:23:15about a mile away from where I was and I spent about four, six weeks

0:23:15 > 0:23:19with this group of my former team-mates and...Were you

0:23:19 > 0:23:28effectively trapped for that period of time?I could not even venture

0:23:28 > 0:23:37outside of the house. I could not do anything other than staying indoors

0:23:37 > 0:23:42because at that time the whole country had gone mad.And you were

0:23:42 > 0:23:46effectively waiting for a knock on the door are you, or the house to be

0:23:46 > 0:23:55attacked or to be under siege?That was life for the whole time. You

0:23:55 > 0:23:59were always waiting for someone to come in and take you away and kill

0:23:59 > 0:24:08you because you were also constantly hearing neighbours being killed,

0:24:08 > 0:24:15gunshots, going off here and there and when you hear that, you know

0:24:15 > 0:24:19what is happening and those who are able to go out would come and tell

0:24:19 > 0:24:28us what was going on outside and the first time I saw someone being

0:24:28 > 0:24:38killed was on the second day of genocide. At that time, we had not

0:24:38 > 0:24:43yet been confided into our house, we could still move around the

0:24:43 > 0:24:56neighbourhoods. So, one of the neighbours, a man was brought

0:24:56 > 0:25:03somewhere from around the corner and he was accused of having been seen

0:25:03 > 0:25:14wearing a T-shirt with a picture of our former PF leader and for that

0:25:14 > 0:25:19reason, the man was escorted a couple of yards from where we were

0:25:19 > 0:25:30and he was brutally killed. They were using whips and stones.You

0:25:30 > 0:25:36witnessed this?I saw this with my own eyes.And what impact does that

0:25:36 > 0:25:44continue to have on you now?It has impacted me in many ways because for

0:25:44 > 0:25:52many years I could not speak about experience. I decided to leave my

0:25:52 > 0:26:01country and came into this country mainly because it was very hard to

0:26:01 > 0:26:11go on and live a normal life with all the memories around you, but

0:26:11 > 0:26:16thankfully I think the sort of survivor experience I had with the

0:26:16 > 0:26:25help of my team-mates and the role the sport had in that has been very

0:26:25 > 0:26:33helpful for me to overcome that type of trauma and today I think I find

0:26:33 > 0:26:40it normal to speak about my experience because I try to see the

0:26:40 > 0:26:46positive side of it and leave the negative side a little bit behind.

0:26:46 > 0:26:52OK. I had want to bring in Adam, if I may. You have brought Kamal and

0:26:52 > 0:26:55Eric and Ruth together. Why?Well, thank you very much for having us

0:26:55 > 0:27:01and thanks also to Ruth and Kamal and Eric for sharing their stories.

0:27:01 > 0:27:06We're trying to bring across the simple message with the fight hate

0:27:06 > 0:27:11with rights campaign which is that genocide doesn't happen overnight.

0:27:11 > 0:27:16It starts with the very basic cuts to liberties, that happen usually

0:27:16 > 0:27:20over many months or years and we don't, we shouldn't wait for

0:27:20 > 0:27:23concentration camps and secret police to stand up. We have got to

0:27:23 > 0:27:27stand up now. Stand up to basic discriminations. Stand up to

0:27:27 > 0:27:30breaches of Human Rights, not necessarily in other countries, but

0:27:30 > 0:27:35we need to do that too, but in our neighbourhoods. Close to home in the

0:27:35 > 0:27:40small places and that's really what the campaign is about.Are you

0:27:40 > 0:27:44saying that's happening, some rights are being whittled away in Britain

0:27:44 > 0:27:49now for example?Yes. We've reached a bit of a turning point and one of

0:27:49 > 0:27:55the reasons this film had over 500,000 views in a few days, it's

0:27:55 > 0:27:58because it's strike ago cord this idea that across the world we are

0:27:58 > 0:28:01seeing the rise again of far-right movements in the United States...

0:28:01 > 0:28:05Which is different to rights being whittled away. Do you have examples

0:28:05 > 0:28:10of that?Well, that's how it starts and you can see in the k UK an

0:28:10 > 0:28:13atmosphere, I'm not saying there is going to be concentration camps here

0:28:13 > 0:28:18in a year's time, but you can see an atmosphere of withdrawing from these

0:28:18 > 0:28:23international institutions that we created after the Second World War,

0:28:23 > 0:28:27we the Brits created the European Convention on Human Rights and the

0:28:27 > 0:28:30international courts, we used to lead those institutions and now

0:28:30 > 0:28:33we're withdrawing.I don't think the Prime Minister said we're going to

0:28:33 > 0:28:37withdraw. As Prime Minister she has not said we are going to withdraw

0:28:37 > 0:28:39from the European Convention on Human Rights?Theresa May is the

0:28:39 > 0:28:43first Prime Minister ever of the UK to say I want, I think we should

0:28:43 > 0:28:46withdraw and I think they have put it on the back burner because of

0:28:46 > 0:28:51Brexit and that's what she said. She said it does nothing for our

0:28:51 > 0:28:55security.As Home Secretary she criticised it?She criticised it as

0:28:55 > 0:28:58Prime Minister as well and I think the direction of travel is quite

0:28:58 > 0:29:07clear in the UK now is that we, there is public support for moving

0:29:07 > 0:29:11away from the international ideas as we see from Brexit and there is

0:29:11 > 0:29:15moving away from Human Rights values and ideals which we have always led

0:29:15 > 0:29:20and I think that's what we are trying to get across, at rights

0:29:20 > 0:29:25infoe with the fight hate with rights campaign.Kamal, you said you

0:29:25 > 0:29:28went back to talk to that high school teacher who had been

0:29:28 > 0:29:33effectively one of your, who you had witnessed forking turing others and

0:29:33 > 0:29:38who interrogated you. What did you say to that man?Because I never

0:29:38 > 0:29:41left of my own will, I have this need to go back and one of the

0:29:41 > 0:29:47things I wanted to do is to find him and hopefully get some answers from

0:29:47 > 0:29:52him because he was such a nice guy, you know, I could understand thugs

0:29:52 > 0:29:56taking part in what happened in the concentration camp, but I couldn't

0:29:56 > 0:30:03understand how this very nice guy could become so nasty. And when I

0:30:03 > 0:30:08first saw him, he knew that we had some shared past because of my name.

0:30:08 > 0:30:12He knew that I was his former students. So we agreed on a

0:30:12 > 0:30:16particular day, but when I went to his school, he wasn't there. But I

0:30:16 > 0:30:21kept going back. It was really, really uncomfortable for me and I

0:30:21 > 0:30:27eventually managed to catch him one day and he wasn't prepared to talk

0:30:27 > 0:30:31and I grabbed his arm and he said, "Don't do that." I said you

0:30:31 > 0:30:35integrated me too and his jaw dropped and we started talking. He

0:30:35 > 0:30:40didn't feel comfortable. But at the same time, he didn't want to accept

0:30:40 > 0:30:44any responsibility for his involvement in what went on in the

0:30:44 > 0:30:52region and in the camp.What did you want to know from him specifically?

0:30:52 > 0:30:58Why him? I just wanted to understand, why is it that

0:30:58 > 0:31:04ordinarily, very nice people become terrible perpetrators?I wonder...

0:31:04 > 0:31:09That is a profound question. Bruce, what would be your answer to that?

0:31:09 > 0:31:16Why do ordinary, nice people... Change?Well, I studied psychology

0:31:16 > 0:31:20and I think we all need to accept that we are born with the capacity

0:31:20 > 0:31:27to become perpetrators. We have demons in our human nature but we

0:31:27 > 0:31:36also have angels. The question really is, why do we tend to nurture

0:31:36 > 0:31:42the demons rather than the angels? So as far as I understand anybody

0:31:42 > 0:31:52can become a perpetrator, and anybody can become a rescuer. I

0:31:52 > 0:31:57think it depends hugely on the moral climate of the earliest upbringing

0:31:57 > 0:32:11in family or wherever a child is raised.I think what Kemal describes

0:32:11 > 0:32:18is pretty much what I experienced and what went on in Rwanda. The

0:32:18 > 0:32:24genocide there was committed by friends against friends, neighbours

0:32:24 > 0:32:34against neighbours, and to some extent, members of the same family.

0:32:34 > 0:32:41It is harder to understand how someone who grew up with -- you grew

0:32:41 > 0:32:46up with, you spent all your time playing, going to school together

0:32:46 > 0:32:54and in just one go, they turn and become a monster and want to kill

0:32:54 > 0:33:03you. Looking at how that developed in Rwanda, how it happened, it has

0:33:03 > 0:33:16something to do with education, with how society is educated, is treated.

0:33:16 > 0:33:23And especially the power of leadership, the power of leadership

0:33:23 > 0:33:28is so much important in how people tend to change and become something

0:33:28 > 0:33:39else.That is why I think Writes Info is so important because this is

0:33:39 > 0:33:44a feature of all the genocide I've studied, in the Holocaust villages,

0:33:44 > 0:33:49particularly in Eastern Europe, set about neighbours murdering

0:33:49 > 0:33:54neighbours, long before the Nazis actually reached. As soon as they

0:33:54 > 0:34:02knew they were coming, it began. I think human rights and Rights Info

0:34:02 > 0:34:10is the way forward but we need to focus on rights having

0:34:10 > 0:34:12responsibilities and we have a society which is very reluctant to

0:34:12 > 0:34:22take responsibility.Can I just say? I wanted to understand, now I know,

0:34:22 > 0:34:26basically everything that happened to me was because there was a slow

0:34:26 > 0:34:29erosion of human rights over a period of time. Propaganda was used

0:34:29 > 0:34:34extensively for many, many years. During that process, I was

0:34:34 > 0:34:38identified with a particular group and members of this group were

0:34:38 > 0:34:42demonised and then it became possible for my fellow human beings

0:34:42 > 0:34:47to see me as a monster and it is much easier to kill monsters than

0:34:47 > 0:34:52human beings. So this is why, you know, we need human rights to be

0:34:52 > 0:35:00enshrined in law, to protect everyone equally and right now, I

0:35:00 > 0:35:03can see some people can dismiss this, I can see very strong

0:35:03 > 0:35:07parallels in what is happening in the West, when we have the most

0:35:07 > 0:35:16powerful man in the world demonising particular groups, calling Mexicans

0:35:16 > 0:35:21rapists and what will his ordinary, fellow American citizens think? This

0:35:21 > 0:35:25is why we need things like the campaign to bring communities

0:35:25 > 0:35:27together, to stand up against this kind of dehumanisation and

0:35:27 > 0:35:35demonisation.Human rights are in law.We do have human rights in law

0:35:35 > 0:35:38in this country, the Human Rights Act enshrined the European

0:35:38 > 0:35:44Convention on human rights into British law.But we need it

0:35:44 > 0:35:48enshrined in people's consciousness. Adam, the use of the word genocide,

0:35:48 > 0:35:52human rights groups say there is a genocide going on right now in

0:35:52 > 0:35:57Myanmar, in Syria, in sedan. Why is it important to use that word? -- in

0:35:57 > 0:36:03Sudan.Once you use the word, it creates a whole different

0:36:03 > 0:36:06international reaction and I know Eric speaks very movingly about the

0:36:06 > 0:36:09failure to use that word in Rwanda for a long time, including by

0:36:09 > 0:36:17Britain. Words do change behaviour and we have got to a point where 70

0:36:17 > 0:36:21years ago, there was not an idea of crimes against humanity or about

0:36:21 > 0:36:24genocide and that is one of the issues we have spoken about in this

0:36:24 > 0:36:27campaign. Now we have at least the beginnings of an international

0:36:27 > 0:36:32system which identifies those horrors, early and late, and tries

0:36:32 > 0:36:36to intervene but we need, the British people need to stand up and

0:36:36 > 0:36:44lead that system, or be beacons in the system, like we once were.OK,

0:36:44 > 0:36:50let me read some messages. Emma says, effectively, "Thank you for

0:36:50 > 0:36:55sharing your stories". She says, "I can't even imagine, it is so sad to

0:36:55 > 0:36:56hear what you went through"

0:36:56 > 0:36:58can't even imagine, it is so sad to hear what you went through". This

0:36:58 > 0:37:03tweet says, "That guy just said Brexit was the first step towards

0:37:03 > 0:37:08genocide. What?" And this tweet says, "Much respect to you for

0:37:08 > 0:37:11speaking this morning". Thank you for joining us. Thank you for coming

0:37:11 > 0:37:13on the programme.

0:37:13 > 0:37:15Still to come:

0:37:15 > 0:37:18a group of outsourced workers at London University are launching

0:37:18 > 0:37:22a legal claim which could lead to improved terms and conditions

0:37:22 > 0:37:25for around 3million workers in the UK.

0:37:25 > 0:37:28We will talk about their case in the next few minutes.

0:37:28 > 0:37:31We'll be with the British explorer Benedict Allen who is now back

0:37:31 > 0:37:33in the country after going missing in a remote area

0:37:33 > 0:37:36of Papua New Guinea.

0:37:41 > 0:37:46Time for the latest news with Rebecca Jones. The headlines this

0:37:46 > 0:37:47morning.

0:37:47 > 0:37:49The BBC understands that senior Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

0:37:49 > 0:37:53should offer to pay more money to leave the EU,

0:37:53 > 0:37:56but only if member states agree next month to move on to

0:37:56 > 0:37:57discussing trade.

0:37:57 > 0:37:59Theresa May met colleagues including Michael Gove

0:37:59 > 0:38:02and Boris Johnson last night, and is expected to make

0:38:02 > 0:38:11the new offer to the EU during talks later this week.

0:38:11 > 0:38:16Robert Mugabe is expected to face the start of impeachment proceedings

0:38:16 > 0:38:21today after refusing to step down as president of Zimbabwe. The country's

0:38:21 > 0:38:24ruling Zanu-PF party said the process could take just two days to

0:38:24 > 0:38:28complete. The 93-year-old, who remains under armed guard, is

0:38:28 > 0:38:32accused of allowing his wife to seize power illegally. Last night,

0:38:32 > 0:38:38the military suggested a plan was emerging for the transfer of power.

0:38:38 > 0:38:40Staff employed by the outsourcing company Cordant are asking a

0:38:40 > 0:38:45tribunal to rule that they have the right

0:38:45 > 0:38:47to negotiate better terms and conditions with the University

0:38:47 > 0:38:48of London, where they work.

0:38:48 > 0:38:50The landmark case has implications for

0:38:50 > 0:38:53more than 3 million workers in the UK's business services

0:38:53 > 0:38:56industry who are hired through facilities companies.

0:38:56 > 0:38:59The university says it does not employ any of the workers

0:38:59 > 0:39:06and does not accept their concept of joint employment.

0:39:06 > 0:39:08That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

0:39:08 > 0:39:11Here's some sport now with Olly.

0:39:14 > 0:39:18England batsman Alastair Cook says they have pretty much accepted that

0:39:18 > 0:39:22Ben Stokes won't play a part in the Ashes Series which starts on

0:39:22 > 0:39:27Thursday. The all-rounder posted pictures of himself in the nets at

0:39:27 > 0:39:29Durham yesterday as he awaits the outcome of a police investigation

0:39:29 > 0:39:34into a brawl outside a nightclub. He was arrested on suspicion of causing

0:39:34 > 0:39:38actual bodily harm. The women's Ashes Series comes to an end today.

0:39:38 > 0:39:43Australia have already retain the Ashes, but England can level the

0:39:43 > 0:39:47series if they win the final T20 in Canberra but they are up against it,

0:39:47 > 0:39:50Beth Mooney carrying the bat through the Australian innings, hitting an

0:39:50 > 0:39:56unbeaten 117. England need 179 to win. Unbeaten in five Premier League

0:39:56 > 0:40:00matches after their 2-2 draw at home against Stoke. They came from behind

0:40:00 > 0:40:04twice and they are still in the top top half of the table. A formal

0:40:04 > 0:40:09offer has been made by Newcastle -- to buy Newcastle United, three had

0:40:09 > 0:40:12million pounds from an investment firm, which is believed to be some

0:40:12 > 0:40:16way short of Mike Ashley's asking price. He put the club up for sale

0:40:16 > 0:40:22last month. I will be back with a full update after 10am.

0:40:22 > 0:40:26Thank you. It is 9:40am, thank you for joining us.

0:40:26 > 0:40:29Teenager Gaia Pope had "struggled" with health issues before she died,

0:40:29 > 0:40:30her father has said.

0:40:30 > 0:40:31Police are treating the 19-year-old's death

0:40:31 > 0:40:34as "unexplained" after her body was found in a field

0:40:34 > 0:40:37near Swanage on Saturday.

0:40:37 > 0:40:41Our correspondent Navtej Johal can tell us more.

0:40:41 > 0:40:46What else did her father said? Victoria, this has been such a sad

0:40:46 > 0:40:50story and yesterday the father of 19-year-old Gaia Pope, Richard

0:40:50 > 0:40:53Sutherland, who was understand be very emotional, said his daughter

0:40:53 > 0:40:56had had a lot of issues and clearly just could not cope with that. One

0:40:56 > 0:41:00of the issues was her severe epilepsy, with which he said she was

0:41:00 > 0:41:03struggling badly but he said his daughter had also had happy moments

0:41:03 > 0:41:09right up to the end of her life, despite health problems. Last night

0:41:09 > 0:41:13on the BBC, paid tribute to his daughter.

0:41:13 > 0:41:15I think...I see it as, our beautiful bird has flown.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18She's not with us in body,

0:41:18 > 0:41:21but she remains in our hearts and with us for ever.

0:41:21 > 0:41:25So while the loss of her in one way is immeasurable,

0:41:25 > 0:41:29we will treasure her and honour her always.

0:41:29 > 0:41:34And I say, Gaia, you're not in pain any more, my darling.

0:41:34 > 0:41:35We love you.

0:41:35 > 0:41:40I love you.

0:41:40 > 0:41:45Victoria, your audience will remember that Gaia went missing on

0:41:45 > 0:41:49the 7th of November and it took police 11 days before her body was

0:41:49 > 0:41:54found on Saturday. Hundreds of people volunteered in the search,

0:41:54 > 0:41:57searching the hills above the coastal town of Swanage in Dorset

0:41:57 > 0:42:01where she went missing. Three people were arrested and released during

0:42:01 > 0:42:05the enquiry. They will face no further action, police have told us.

0:42:05 > 0:42:09But they also say now there is nothing to suggest anyone else was

0:42:09 > 0:42:14involved in Gaia's death and they are treating it as unexplained. The

0:42:14 > 0:42:18family are distraught at the amount of time it has taken for police to

0:42:18 > 0:42:22find her body but Dorset Police have responded, saying it had an

0:42:22 > 0:42:26obligation to follow every possible line of enquiry. The force is now

0:42:26 > 0:42:31awaiting the results of a toxicology test and meanwhile, the family have

0:42:31 > 0:42:35now asked to be left alone to grieve.Thank you.

0:42:35 > 0:42:37Coming up, British explorer Benedict Allen is home after going

0:42:37 > 0:42:38missing in Papua New Guinea.

0:42:38 > 0:42:42We'll be live with him later this morning.

0:42:43 > 0:42:49A group of 75 workers, including porters and receptionists,

0:42:49 > 0:42:52are going to a tribunal to try to win more rights at work.

0:42:52 > 0:42:55As outsourced employees - in this case they're supplied

0:42:55 > 0:43:00to the University of London by an outside company -

0:43:00 > 0:43:03they don't receive the same benefits as those employed directly.

0:43:03 > 0:43:06They say the university should be a "joint employer",

0:43:06 > 0:43:09which mean they would get the same pension and holiday pay rights

0:43:09 > 0:43:11as those directly employed the University of London.

0:43:11 > 0:43:17The university disagrees.

0:43:17 > 0:43:19If the case is successful, it could affect around 3 million

0:43:19 > 0:43:21outsourced workers in the UK.

0:43:21 > 0:43:23Our legal affairs correspondent Clive Coleman has been

0:43:23 > 0:43:24finding out about the case.

0:43:24 > 0:43:27Henry Chango Lopez's day starts early,

0:43:27 > 0:43:30with the first of his two jobs.

0:43:30 > 0:43:33I woke up at four o'clock this morning, travelled

0:43:33 > 0:43:36one hour to Southwark.

0:43:36 > 0:43:39And here I am to do my two hours of cleaning.

0:43:39 > 0:43:43Henry is one of many workers who are outsourced.

0:43:43 > 0:43:47In other words, he's employed by a facilities company that can

0:43:47 > 0:43:51provide his services to another company or organisation.

0:43:51 > 0:43:56At 7.30, I'm at the University of London to do my job as a porter.

0:43:56 > 0:44:01Many big organisations outsource, which means that instead

0:44:01 > 0:44:05of employing cleaners, security guards and other

0:44:05 > 0:44:08often low-paid staff, they pay a facilities company

0:44:08 > 0:44:12to provide these workers.

0:44:12 > 0:44:15So, while maintaining control over the way people work and often

0:44:15 > 0:44:19setting their pay and conditions, they can avoid some

0:44:19 > 0:44:23of the legal responsibilities of being an employer.

0:44:23 > 0:44:27That can mean far worse pensions, holiday and sick pay

0:44:27 > 0:44:31for the outsourced workers.

0:44:31 > 0:44:36Now a group including Henry, employed by the facilities company

0:44:36 > 0:44:40Cordant and supplied to London University,

0:44:40 > 0:44:43are seeking a tribunal ruling that the university

0:44:43 > 0:44:47is recognised along with Cordant as their joint employer.

0:44:47 > 0:44:50The union supporting the workers says that there

0:44:50 > 0:44:54is an important principle at stake.

0:44:54 > 0:44:57The outsourced workers at the University of London,

0:44:57 > 0:45:00for example the security guards, for all intents and purposes

0:45:00 > 0:45:01work for the university.

0:45:01 > 0:45:05The university is the entity that essentially decides what their pay

0:45:05 > 0:45:07and terms and conditions are going to be.

0:45:07 > 0:45:11Unless they can negotiate directly with the university,

0:45:11 > 0:45:14they can't really negotiate over their pay and terms and conditions.

0:45:14 > 0:45:18UK law has never recognised the concept that workers could have

0:45:18 > 0:45:20joint employers for the purpose

0:45:20 > 0:45:24of negotiating their terms and conditions.

0:45:24 > 0:45:27If it did, the consequences could be huge.

0:45:27 > 0:45:30It would be enormous.

0:45:30 > 0:45:32There would be about 3.5 million outsourced employees whose terms

0:45:32 > 0:45:35and conditions would improve

0:45:35 > 0:45:37because now they would be on the same terms and conditions

0:45:37 > 0:45:39as the people they work alongside every day,

0:45:39 > 0:45:40but who are directly employed.

0:45:40 > 0:45:43And for the employers, of course, there would also be an impact

0:45:43 > 0:45:45because it would be more expensive to improve those

0:45:45 > 0:45:47terms and conditions.

0:45:47 > 0:45:51Henry says that for him, it could be a game-changer.

0:45:51 > 0:45:55If the law recognised the University of London as my employer,

0:45:55 > 0:45:59my life would change massively,

0:45:59 > 0:46:03because I wouldn't have to do two jobs as I am doing at the moment,

0:46:03 > 0:46:06where I have to wake up at five o'clock in the morning every day

0:46:06 > 0:46:09in order to make ends meet.

0:46:09 > 0:46:11In terms of pensions, I would be able to retire

0:46:11 > 0:46:15with a good pension, not the one I have at the moment.

0:46:15 > 0:46:18In a statement, the University of London said:

0:46:37 > 0:46:41For Henry Chango Lopez, for now at least, the early mornings

0:46:41 > 0:46:44and the long days continue.

0:46:55 > 0:46:58We can now speak to Glen Jacques, one of the subcontracted

0:46:58 > 0:46:59workers who is bringing this case.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02He works as a security officer for the University of London.

0:47:02 > 0:47:05Danny Millum is branch secretary of the University of London IWGB.

0:47:05 > 0:47:08He also works at the University of London as a full-time employee.

0:47:08 > 0:47:10Melanie Eusebe is a business analyst and professor

0:47:10 > 0:47:11at Hull International Business School.

0:47:11 > 0:47:13Daphne Romney QC is a barrister specialising

0:47:13 > 0:47:19in employment law who you saw in Clive's film.

0:47:19 > 0:47:23You have been subcontracted by the university to provide security. Have

0:47:23 > 0:47:27you always been in the subcontracted position?No, when I first started

0:47:27 > 0:47:31working at the university I was employed directly by the university

0:47:31 > 0:47:35and for the first two years I was employed by them, then the contract

0:47:35 > 0:47:41companies took over. Soy was tunedied over to the contract

0:47:41 > 0:47:48company. We lost our pension and the university pay a good deal with the

0:47:48 > 0:47:54pension scheme so when that stopped we lost that so we had to make our

0:47:54 > 0:47:57own way with the pensions. That's one of the reasons I took the job

0:47:57 > 0:48:00because it was one I was going to hope to stay there for the rest of

0:48:00 > 0:48:04my days and get a good pension and that was out of the window and there

0:48:04 > 0:48:07were some people who had been working there for 30 years and they

0:48:07 > 0:48:12have lost that pension now.So for a number of years you have been in the

0:48:12 > 0:48:16position of working for the outside company, working alongside full-time

0:48:16 > 0:48:19employees of the university, but without the pension contributions,

0:48:19 > 0:48:23without the holiday pay, the sick pay, without the same rights. What

0:48:23 > 0:48:29does that feel like?Well, to be honest, with my point of view I was

0:48:29 > 0:48:31tupeed over so some of the conditions were the same. It is

0:48:31 > 0:48:35mainly the pension, but it is the other contract staff they lost

0:48:35 > 0:48:41everything. They were getting sick pay and they had to fight for that,

0:48:41 > 0:48:44everything to match what the direct employees was getting was by the

0:48:44 > 0:48:47unions fighting for it because they had lost it all. The only thing is

0:48:47 > 0:48:52the contract company that first took over, we were treated pretty badly.

0:48:52 > 0:48:55We weren't treated, we were treated like second-class citizens to be

0:48:55 > 0:48:59honest.Well, you don't have the same pension rights, that's one of

0:48:59 > 0:49:02them.It was even the treatment by the managers themselves that was

0:49:02 > 0:49:07pretty bad.Danny, why isn't the answer here to campaign to protest,

0:49:07 > 0:49:11do whatever you want, with the contract company rather than the

0:49:11 > 0:49:13University of London?Yeah, we were chatting about this before we

0:49:13 > 0:49:17started actually and I think the deal is that it's the University of

0:49:17 > 0:49:22London that decide all of these terms and conditions. So, for

0:49:22 > 0:49:27instance in the past, in 2011 when the university brought in the London

0:49:27 > 0:49:30Living Wage, again, that had contractors at the time and the

0:49:30 > 0:49:32university agreed that they would make up the difference. They would

0:49:32 > 0:49:36pay that to the contractors and they have done the same thing when we

0:49:36 > 0:49:40fought for improved terms of holidays and for sick pay. Again the

0:49:40 > 0:49:44university stepped in and paid that. So, it's at every juncture, it is

0:49:44 > 0:49:47the university that's responsible here.They disagree. They say the

0:49:47 > 0:49:50university doesn't employ any of the workers and they don't accept that

0:49:50 > 0:49:54the relevant legislation recognises the concept of joint employment and

0:49:54 > 0:50:00therefore we have not agreed to the union's request for recognition.

0:50:00 > 0:50:06I wonder what you say from a business point of view in terms of

0:50:06 > 0:50:08an outsourced company giving the same rights as the full-time

0:50:08 > 0:50:11employees?We have to look at why companies outsource in the first

0:50:11 > 0:50:14place. So it is not necessarily about cost-cutting measures.

0:50:14 > 0:50:20Sometimes it is just about putting a capability in one place so for

0:50:20 > 0:50:23example, the University of London, they are an educational fal silt so

0:50:23 > 0:50:27they say OK, you know what, cleaning, accounting, IT, tech, we

0:50:27 > 0:50:31outsource it to another organisation because we are not specialists, but

0:50:31 > 0:50:36there are people who are specialists, however, in regards to

0:50:36 > 0:50:40specifically outsourcing workers, we know for a fact that companies have

0:50:40 > 0:50:43done this to get away from the rights and obligations, the legal

0:50:43 > 0:50:47obligations that they have towards taking care of their employees and

0:50:47 > 0:50:55so, quite frankly I would say why are we not looking at Cordent.

0:50:55 > 0:50:59That's the outsourced firm?Why aren't we looking at that contract

0:50:59 > 0:51:01that they have with the individuals rather than looking at someone who

0:51:01 > 0:51:07is further down the supply chain? Daphne, what chance of success in

0:51:07 > 0:51:11terms of this case?It's an interesting legal concept which is

0:51:11 > 0:51:15what clients hate hearing because so what? It is an interesting legal

0:51:15 > 0:51:19concept. It's not something that's recognised in the UK at the moment.

0:51:19 > 0:51:23What's been said here is that by reason of the degree of control,

0:51:23 > 0:51:27that's going on with the university, over these workers, they should be

0:51:27 > 0:51:32recognised as having some sort of control over them for the purpose

0:51:32 > 0:51:37therefore being recognised.Ie joint employer.The case in the is about

0:51:37 > 0:51:43whether or not they should be recognised, the union recognised as

0:51:43 > 0:51:47speaking for them. It is partly to do with the European Convention on

0:51:47 > 0:51:51Human Rights which is not the same as the EU and therefore will apply

0:51:51 > 0:51:55after Brexit and one of the conditions there, article 11, says

0:51:55 > 0:51:58there is freedom of association. So, it's partly being fought on that

0:51:58 > 0:52:02basis. It's quite exploratory and therefore, it's quite important

0:52:02 > 0:52:06because if it's right, then anybody who is working as a contract worker

0:52:06 > 0:52:09could find themselves getting a whole raft of rights which they

0:52:09 > 0:52:12don't currently enjoy.The key thing here is these guys are total

0:52:12 > 0:52:16integrated with the work we do. So I work in the institute for historical

0:52:16 > 0:52:20research and Glen works there. On a day-to-day basis we are using the

0:52:20 > 0:52:23same systems, we are providing training for him and he is providing

0:52:23 > 0:52:27support for us. People who will be coming into the institute would see

0:52:27 > 0:52:30Glen as the face of the institute. He has been there for longer than I

0:52:30 > 0:52:36have.No one would dispute that. Yet, the university essentially is

0:52:36 > 0:52:38determining everything about his day-to-day life. The manager is

0:52:38 > 0:52:41giving him instructions and university staff are giving him

0:52:41 > 0:52:44instructions as well, but at the same time he has no capacity to

0:52:44 > 0:52:48negotiate his terms and conditions with them.Who is your line manager?

0:52:48 > 0:52:52That's another problem. I have got the manager of the institute, but

0:52:52 > 0:52:55then I have got the manager for the contract company as well so I have

0:52:55 > 0:53:00to answer to both of them.You have got two managers in a joint kind of

0:53:00 > 0:53:05way.Yes. Sometimes if you go to the university manager, the contract

0:53:05 > 0:53:10company will tell you you shouldn't be going to the client directly.

0:53:10 > 0:53:14What do do you there? It happened with the first contract company,

0:53:14 > 0:53:17maybe they should discuss it with each other and let me know what they

0:53:17 > 0:53:21want me to do because I was like a tennis ball hit from one place to

0:53:21 > 0:53:27the next.These things are about control and you are seeing this with

0:53:27 > 0:53:29the Uber cases and the gig economy cases, who is giving the

0:53:29 > 0:53:34instructions? Who has the capacity to say do this, do that and if

0:53:34 > 0:53:37people are working in the university side by side with direct employees,

0:53:37 > 0:53:39but their terms and conditions are less, their holidays are less,

0:53:39 > 0:53:43everything is less, then in effect you've got a second class layer of

0:53:43 > 0:53:46employment. So, there is a legal question and there is also a moral

0:53:46 > 0:53:52question and a morale question.A final word from you.Outsourcing is

0:53:52 > 0:53:55not a bad thing. It is something we use all the time. Professional

0:53:55 > 0:54:00services, who do you listen to? The client or your own firm? But in the

0:54:00 > 0:54:04case where we are using it as a tool to take away the rights and the

0:54:04 > 0:54:07employment rights of our own people, that's when we have to look at it

0:54:07 > 0:54:12closely and go straight to the contracting company.I just wanted

0:54:12 > 0:54:19to just say that it's also massively discriminatory that 80% of the staff

0:54:19 > 0:54:23employed as contract staff are black, minority or ethnic. It is

0:54:23 > 0:54:26clear this is unfair on that basis as well.Thank you, all of you.

0:54:26 > 0:54:35Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on the programme.

0:54:35 > 0:54:37Collectively British women spend about £250 million a year

0:54:37 > 0:54:40on tampons and sanitary towels - £12 million of which goes

0:54:40 > 0:54:43to the treasury in VAT, or what's known as the "tampon tax".

0:54:43 > 0:54:45The fact that such products aren't deemed a basic necessity,

0:54:45 > 0:54:48and thereby exempt from VAT, has prompted a campaign

0:54:48 > 0:54:50to try and change that in the last few years.

0:54:50 > 0:54:52In 2018, it should change.

0:54:52 > 0:54:55The European Commission says it's aiming to bring in a zero tax rate

0:54:55 > 0:54:57for sanitary products and the UK Government has already legislated

0:54:57 > 0:55:02to allow this to happen as soon as rules change.

0:55:02 > 0:55:07Today, the BBC has put up on our website a tampon tax

0:55:07 > 0:55:10calculator, that allows you to see how much you've spent so far

0:55:10 > 0:55:13in your life on sanitary products and so how much you've spent

0:55:13 > 0:55:15on the tax, too.

0:55:15 > 0:55:16Have a look at this.

0:56:29 > 0:56:32Let's talk now to Laura Croyton, who has campaigned since 2013

0:56:32 > 0:56:33to end the tampon tax.

0:56:33 > 0:56:34Rachel Krengel has had times

0:56:34 > 0:56:37when she hasn't been able to afford to buy sanitary products.

0:56:37 > 0:56:43Thank you for coming on the programme. Laura £12 million in tax

0:56:43 > 0:56:48from the 5% VAT on sanitary products, how do you react?It's a

0:56:48 > 0:56:52huge figure for individuals, but not that big for the Government.

0:56:52 > 0:56:56So, it's not that much for them to sacrifice, but it's a lot for the

0:56:56 > 0:57:00individual person.You started this campaign a few years ago. How far do

0:57:00 > 0:57:05you think it has come and how much further is there to go?I think it's

0:57:05 > 0:57:08come a long way in that the Government have said they will end

0:57:08 > 0:57:11the tampon tax, it is a case of making sure they do it and that's

0:57:11 > 0:57:15going to take a while because of Brexit and the EU situation which is

0:57:15 > 0:57:20very irritating.I am not sure it is to do with Brexit. The Government,

0:57:20 > 0:57:24as you rightly say, strongly support cutting the VAT rate on sanitary

0:57:24 > 0:57:29products to zero. They can't under EU law, but the EU Commission next

0:57:29 > 0:57:33year, before we've Brexited is going to bring in this change in rules

0:57:33 > 0:57:39which means we can do it. So it is not to do with Brexit.They said

0:57:39 > 0:57:42whichever comes first, whether that changes at the EU or we leave the

0:57:42 > 0:57:48EU.Rachel, hello.Hi.You have experienced period poverty. Some of

0:57:48 > 0:57:55our audience will know what it is, but just explain.The definition we

0:57:55 > 0:58:06use is the inability to access menstrual products, we say

0:58:06 > 0:58:15menstrual. So that can be, for me it was in large part financial. We were

0:58:15 > 0:58:19in this horrible financial situation. Very young children. We

0:58:19 > 0:58:27were both young. My partner lost his job. I was the birth control I was

0:58:27 > 0:58:30on, I was bleeding for a long time and it wasn't something we could

0:58:30 > 0:58:33budget for. It's in large part because of taboo and because of

0:58:33 > 0:58:37stigma and because of lack of education. So, at this point I never

0:58:37 > 0:58:42went to a foodbank. I had amazing support networks. When we had no

0:58:42 > 0:58:47money, people would buy us food. People would lend us money for food,

0:58:47 > 0:58:50shopping, my sister bought my daughter a winter coat which was

0:58:50 > 0:58:54amazing. I never asked anyone because in my mind at the time this

0:58:54 > 0:58:57was something that was only about me, it wasn't about the rest of the

0:58:57 > 0:58:59family and it was something I could hide. It was something I could deal

0:58:59 > 0:59:03with privately and something in my heart of hearts I felt like I should

0:59:03 > 0:59:08be hiding.Right, that's interesting, isn't it? I'm going to

0:59:08 > 0:59:11ask you how did you cope? What did you do?I was able to budget a

0:59:11 > 0:59:14little bit. So I would have some menstrual pads, not nearly enough

0:59:14 > 0:59:21for the month. So I would wear them for a very long time. Not going to

0:59:21 > 0:59:25go, you know, it is national TV in the morning. Just to say it is not

0:59:25 > 0:59:32pleasant.Yeah. Yeah.I had a diaphragm which was not comfortable

0:59:32 > 0:59:36and not safe, please nobody do it because I've just said it. Sometimes

0:59:36 > 0:59:41I would not use anything. I wasn't leaving the house much, we didn't

0:59:41 > 0:59:47have money to go anywhere.Fair enough. The Government gives all

0:59:47 > 0:59:51funds from menstrual products, gives the tax to charities. To women's

0:59:51 > 0:59:57charities. Last month it gave to an anti-abortion charity, but it did

0:59:57 > 1:00:04say that the £250,000 to the Life charity could not be spent on

1:00:04 > 1:00:06funding counselling, education, publicity or promotion. How do you

1:00:06 > 1:00:12react to that, Laura?It's an issue that it didn't need to go into and

1:00:12 > 1:00:18that if a charity has any bias towards an issue that women are very

1:00:18 > 1:00:22divided on, it shouldn't really get involved in that.Right.I think it

1:00:22 > 1:00:25was just unnecessary to do that with women's money.

1:00:25 > 1:00:29Thank you both. Thank you very much, Laura. Thank you, Rachel for coming

1:00:29 > 1:00:31on the programme.

1:00:31 > 1:00:34Let's get the latest weather update with Simon King.

1:00:37 > 1:00:43Hello Victoria. It has been a really mild start to the day.

1:00:43 > 1:00:49It is going to turn colder by the end of the week. But in the

1:00:49 > 1:00:52meantime, despite the mild weather, it is cloudy. This is just one

1:00:52 > 1:00:57example in Durham. Some outbreaks of rain affecting northern parts of

1:00:57 > 1:01:00England, up into Scotland. That rain will continue across Scotland

1:01:00 > 1:01:03particularly western areas. A strong easterly wind developing here as

1:01:03 > 1:01:08well. Drier spells elsewhere, but further rain spreads into Wales and

1:01:08 > 1:01:12the Midlands and north Wention later. Temperatures, 13, 14, 15, but

1:01:12 > 1:01:17in brighter spells, we could see 16 or 17 Celsius. Tonight is breezy.

1:01:17 > 1:01:22Outbreaks of rain at times for England and Wales. That will become

1:01:22 > 1:01:25more confined towards northern parts of England and Northern Ireland by

1:01:25 > 1:01:28the early hours of Wednesday morning, but again, a mild night

1:01:28 > 1:01:34with temperatures staying in double figures. During Wednesday that rain

1:01:34 > 1:01:40will finance to move northward. The best of the dry and bright

1:01:40 > 1:01:42weather towards the South East where temperatures could be up into about

1:01:42 > 1:01:4516 or 17 Celsius. Bye-bye.

1:01:47 > 1:01:49Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

1:01:49 > 1:01:56welcome to the programme.

1:01:56 > 1:01:59Our top story, the government has agreed the UK Government should

1:01:59 > 1:02:02offer more money for its divorce from the EU but only of trade talks

1:02:02 > 1:02:08begin next month.

1:02:08 > 1:02:11As the big B sub Brexit backed Mrs May over a bigger divorce Bill,

1:02:11 > 1:02:15there is anger among Tory MPs for more money for Brussels. We will get

1:02:15 > 1:02:21reaction from a leading Brexit in the next half an hour. -- Brexiteer.

1:02:21 > 1:02:23In an exclusive interview on this programme,

1:02:23 > 1:02:25three survivors of genocide join forces to stand up to extremism.

1:02:25 > 1:02:27He was such a nice guy.

1:02:27 > 1:02:30But I couldn't understand how this very nice guy could become so nasty.

1:02:30 > 1:02:33We all need to accept that we are born with the capacity

1:02:33 > 1:02:37to become perpetrators.

1:02:37 > 1:02:40The whole time, you were always waiting for someone to come and take

1:02:40 > 1:02:50you away and kill you.

1:02:52 > 1:02:58Someone says, "Such brave, brave souls, thanks for the coverage".

1:02:58 > 1:03:05Another says, "Thankfully impactful courage." Gary says, "Those guys

1:03:05 > 1:03:08were unbelievable and to think we worry about what we have to deal

1:03:08 > 1:03:10with". The full interview is available on social media.

1:03:10 > 1:03:13And in just a moment, we'll be talking to the British

1:03:13 > 1:03:15explorer Benedict Allen, who is now back in the country

1:03:15 > 1:03:19after going missing in a remote area of Papua New Guinea.

1:03:27 > 1:03:30Time for the latest BBC News with Rebecca.

1:03:30 > 1:03:31Good morning.

1:03:31 > 1:03:35The BBC understands that senior Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

1:03:35 > 1:03:40should offer to pay more money to leave the EU, but only if member

1:03:40 > 1:03:43states agree to move on to discussing trade next month.

1:03:43 > 1:03:44Theresa May met colleagues including Michael Gove

1:03:44 > 1:03:47and Boris Johnson last night, and is expected to make

1:03:47 > 1:03:53the new offer to the EU during talks later this week.

1:03:53 > 1:03:57Robert Mugabe is expected to face the start of impeachment proceedings

1:03:57 > 1:04:01today after refusing to step down as President of Zimbabwe.

1:04:01 > 1:04:03The country's ruling party, Zanu-PF, said the process could take just

1:04:03 > 1:04:13two days to complete.

1:04:14 > 1:04:16The 93-year-old, who remains under armed guard, is accused

1:04:16 > 1:04:18of allowing his wife to seize power illegally.

1:04:18 > 1:04:20Last night, the military suggested a plan was emerging

1:04:20 > 1:04:21for the transfer of power.

1:04:21 > 1:04:25The Government's borrowing level rose by £500 million last month,

1:04:25 > 1:04:30reaching a total of £8 billion.

1:04:30 > 1:04:33That's up 6.9% compared with October 2016, according to the Office

1:04:33 > 1:04:38for National Statistics.

1:04:38 > 1:04:44Our business presenter Susannah Streeter has more.

1:04:44 > 1:04:50How unexpected is this rise? Actually, a poll of Reuters

1:04:50 > 1:04:55economists forecast it would be around £7 billion for October 2017

1:04:55 > 1:05:00but as you say, it is actually standing at £8 billion, more than

1:05:00 > 1:05:08expected, up 6.9% in bed to October 2016. -- compared to October 2000

1:05:08 > 1:05:1116. It is thought to be specifically because of a rise in the cost of

1:05:11 > 1:05:16government borrowing. Those costs were up 25% and that is all linked

1:05:16 > 1:05:22to rising inflation because the cost of index linked bonds is going up.

1:05:22 > 1:05:25This certainly gives Chancellor Philip Hammond less room for

1:05:25 > 1:05:33manoeuvre in his budget that he is unveiling tomorrow. He wanted to try

1:05:33 > 1:05:37to allocate more money towards house-building, for example, but it

1:05:37 > 1:05:40certainly seems as though he will have less money to play with.

1:05:40 > 1:05:44However, he will say that he is still on track to reduce the deficit

1:05:44 > 1:05:48because in the first seven months of the financial year, the deficit had

1:05:48 > 1:05:55fallen by 9.6%.Susannah Streeter, there.

1:05:55 > 1:05:57Staff employed by the outsourcing company Cordant are asking

1:05:57 > 1:06:01a tribunal to rule that they have the right to negotiate better terms

1:06:01 > 1:06:04and conditions with the University of London where they work.

1:06:04 > 1:06:08The landmark case has implications for more than 3 million workers

1:06:08 > 1:06:11in the UK's business services industry, who are hired

1:06:11 > 1:06:13through facilities companies.

1:06:13 > 1:06:16The university says it doesn't employ any of the workers

1:06:16 > 1:06:21and doesn't accept their concept of "joint employment".

1:06:21 > 1:06:24Finally, watch this.

1:06:24 > 1:06:27A camera operator who waited 40 minutes to film

1:06:27 > 1:06:30a stadium demolition... missed it.

1:06:30 > 1:06:33The Georgia Dome in Atlanta, which hosted the Super Bowl

1:06:33 > 1:06:42and the Olympics, was reduced to rubble by a controlled

1:06:42 > 1:06:43demolition, but something got in the way...

1:07:22 > 1:07:23You couldn't make it up!

1:07:23 > 1:07:27That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30am.

1:07:27 > 1:07:30I love the way he's having a conversation with the bus, like it

1:07:30 > 1:07:35can hear him.

1:07:35 > 1:07:39Get in touch with us. On Christmas lights, Eleanor said she has got

1:07:39 > 1:07:43them up inside. "We Don't have lights outside but I love to start

1:07:43 > 1:07:46decorating Ellie. Why not? The lights make my home so much nicer

1:07:46 > 1:07:53and warmer". And another says "People put their Christmas

1:07:53 > 1:07:56digressions up early to get into the spirit, it is a good thing and it

1:07:56 > 1:08:02makes people happy, end of". But someone else is with me, "Fairy

1:08:02 > 1:08:05lights in November? No."

1:08:05 > 1:08:07Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

1:08:07 > 1:08:10use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE and if you text, you will be charged

1:08:10 > 1:08:11at the standard network rate.

1:08:11 > 1:08:13You can use WhatsApp and Facebook for free.

1:08:13 > 1:08:15Here's some sport now with Olly.

1:08:15 > 1:08:18England batsman Alastair Cook says they have pretty much accepted that

1:08:18 > 1:08:22Ben Stokes is going to play no part in the Ashes Series. The all-rounder

1:08:22 > 1:08:25is awaiting the outcome of a police investigation after a brawl outside

1:08:25 > 1:08:30a nightclub in September. He was arrested on suspicion of causing

1:08:30 > 1:08:37actual bodily harm. Stokes posted this on Instagram yesterday, keeping

1:08:37 > 1:08:43himself trim in the nets at Durham, bowling, batting, seemingly ready to

1:08:43 > 1:08:47join up with his team-mates if he is cleared. Here are his team-mates,

1:08:47 > 1:08:53training in Brisbane, where Australia have not lost a Test match

1:08:53 > 1:08:58in almost 30 years. The first Test match starts on Thursday, well,

1:08:58 > 1:09:01overnight Wednesday our time. England hold the Ashes but the last

1:09:01 > 1:09:06time they were in Australia almost four years ago, they lost 5-0,

1:09:06 > 1:09:11whitewashed. They are certainly a weaker side without Ben Stokes.

1:09:11 > 1:09:13Well, you're talking about it.

1:09:13 > 1:09:14It is a news line for us.

1:09:14 > 1:09:18Of course, and we understand, I understand the game.

1:09:18 > 1:09:22It has been a while since the incident.

1:09:22 > 1:09:25Certainly as a player, in the first couple of weeks after, it

1:09:25 > 1:09:29was what everyone was talking about.

1:09:29 > 1:09:32It was not great and we pretty much accepted it was unlikely

1:09:32 > 1:09:33that Ben would be here.

1:09:33 > 1:09:35You can't always pin your hopes on one guy.

1:09:35 > 1:09:38If there is a bonus of him making the trip at some

1:09:38 > 1:09:41stage, that would be great, but I can honestly say

1:09:41 > 1:09:43it has not been spoken about in the changing room.

1:09:43 > 1:09:48It's no good for us to talk about that.

1:09:48 > 1:09:51England's women have already lost their Ashes Series but they can

1:09:51 > 1:09:55level the series if they win the final T20 match in Canberra. It does

1:09:55 > 1:09:58not look likely. Australia have posted a formidable target, open a

1:09:58 > 1:10:06Beth Mooney unbeaten on 117, her maiden century coming off 70

1:10:06 > 1:10:11deliveries from Australia finishing on 170-2 from their 20 overs. The

1:10:11 > 1:10:14Chase has started, England have already lost three wickets. Natalie

1:10:14 > 1:10:21Sciver the last to go, run out, 36-3 is the latest scores so it looks

1:10:21 > 1:10:26like they will lose the series as well.

1:10:26 > 1:10:29Brighton are now unbeaten in five matches in the Premier League,

1:10:29 > 1:10:32coming from behind twice to earn a point against Stoke at home.

1:10:32 > 1:10:39Izquierdo made it 2-2 at the Amex Stadium. They are ninth and Stoke

1:10:39 > 1:10:43remained 15th, four points above the relegation zone. That is all for

1:10:43 > 1:10:46now. The headlines in the next half an hour.

1:10:46 > 1:10:48The British explorer Benedict Allen is back in Britain.

1:10:48 > 1:10:52He went missing in a remote area of Papua New Guinea as he tried

1:10:52 > 1:10:58to reach a little known-tribe.

1:10:58 > 1:11:01He's been diagnosed with strains of both malaria and dengue fever after

1:11:01 > 1:11:03getting stranded in remote mountains.

1:11:03 > 1:11:05He's a friend of Frank Gardner, our security correspondent,

1:11:05 > 1:11:11who is with him now for his first TV interview this morning.

1:11:11 > 1:11:16Hello, gentlemen. Hello, Frank and Benedict, welcome home.

1:11:16 > 1:11:20Good morning. He can't hear you but that is nothing to do with malaria.

1:11:20 > 1:11:24He just can't you. I have got you in my ear but says good morning as

1:11:24 > 1:11:29well. As you can see, Benedict Allen is beside me. I'm going to take it

1:11:29 > 1:11:34away. He is beside me here, at little disorientated by the fever

1:11:34 > 1:11:38that he has had but he has just stepped off a plane. Benedict, I'm

1:11:38 > 1:11:42afraid I'm going to have to start by asking you, what were you thinking,

1:11:42 > 1:11:47going trekking without a satellite phone or a GPS locator when you have

1:11:47 > 1:11:52got a young family back home who were worried sick about you?Well,

1:11:52 > 1:11:57it does not look very good but I'm not... I'm known as an explorer but

1:11:57 > 1:12:01the fact of the matter is, I'm a specialist at going to very remote

1:12:01 > 1:12:05places. I've spent three decades doing this kind of thing and I know

1:12:05 > 1:12:10Papua New Guinea very well. I used to live there.Are you still

1:12:10 > 1:12:13witnessing, essentially.Yes because a lot of circumstances combined

1:12:13 > 1:12:17against me. There was a huge amount of unexpected rains, one of the

1:12:17 > 1:12:21grapevine bridges we had to cross to get across a raging torrent was

1:12:21 > 1:12:25swept away by floods. Then as we climbed higher, I was trying to

1:12:25 > 1:12:30track down some people are used to live with and as it went on, I began

1:12:30 > 1:12:34to feel chills, began to feel uncomfortable at night and I knew I

1:12:34 > 1:12:38might well have malaria. I've had it five times, almost died of it twice

1:12:38 > 1:12:42so that. Into the problem, it slowed me further down and then the final

1:12:42 > 1:12:45blow, there was a war going on between two different communities

1:12:45 > 1:12:49ahead of me so I suddenly found my way out of the forest was blocked.

1:12:49 > 1:12:54What do you mean by a wall?There's a lot of intercommunity fighting in

1:12:54 > 1:12:58Papua New Guinea, it's the most linguistically diverse place in the

1:12:58 > 1:13:01world, there's a huge number of languages, 850 language groups so

1:13:01 > 1:13:05people are fighting all the time and I was trapped.Just to be clear, you

1:13:05 > 1:13:08were very well looked after by everyone you were with, you were

1:13:08 > 1:13:14never threatened.You were asking, why go without a phone? Part of the

1:13:14 > 1:13:18reason is I have a back-up, my back-up is not being able to summon

1:13:18 > 1:13:22a helicopter or something like that, it is to use local resources and be

1:13:22 > 1:13:27friends with people who can help you. The forest is not a threat to

1:13:27 > 1:13:31them, it is they home and give them food, medicine and shelter so I had

1:13:31 > 1:13:34resources and the local people are always friendly to me without

1:13:34 > 1:13:38exception, I was passed through the forest by different local groups. It

1:13:38 > 1:13:44was great until the malaria kicked in.What was your worst moment?The

1:13:44 > 1:13:48realisation that that time it did not look good at all. I was dropping

1:13:48 > 1:13:55into fever and out of it and I had to make a statement to my family...

1:13:55 > 1:14:00You made a farewell video message? Yeah, bearing in mind I'd never gone

1:14:00 > 1:14:03on an expedition, a tough solo endeavour like this while a parent

1:14:03 > 1:14:08before. It had just been me as a young man before and now I have

1:14:08 > 1:14:11three children, who are ten, seven and two, and it was heartbreaking,

1:14:11 > 1:14:20talking to the camera about... Well, saying, don't worry, I won't value

1:14:20 > 1:14:24but in my heart, I thought I might well fail so I had to say that if

1:14:24 > 1:14:27anybody found the footage, they should take it to the High

1:14:27 > 1:14:32Commission because I might be dead and this is my family and I showed

1:14:32 > 1:14:37the cameraman my children and my wife and said, "Maybe you have a

1:14:37 > 1:14:47family". I was speaking in pigeon. -- in pidgin. The local lingua

1:14:47 > 1:14:50franca, trying to get people to understand that they could get the

1:14:50 > 1:14:55footage out and give it to my wife. Like me, you are a father with the

1:14:55 > 1:14:59young family, a lovely family, I've met them. Why do this? Why put them

1:14:59 > 1:15:06through this? Some people will say this is a midlife crisis.My wife

1:15:06 > 1:15:15loves me for the person I am, I'm not a risk taker, I'm a risk

1:15:15 > 1:15:19calculator, and a challenge take-up. I calculate risks all the time.Did

1:15:19 > 1:15:24you miss calculate this time?Maybe I did but I was not on my last legs.

1:15:24 > 1:15:30I was almost on my last legs, I had one big chance to get out and I was

1:15:30 > 1:15:34gathering myself ready for that went totally out of the blue,

1:15:34 > 1:15:38unexpectedly, this helicopter arrived and saved me from having to

1:15:38 > 1:15:42do what might have been a fatal stroke.Paid for by the Daily Mail

1:15:42 > 1:15:48which is why some people are saying, "Isn't this just a publicity stunt?"

1:15:48 > 1:15:53If it had been, it was certainly a shock to the journalist, seeing my

1:15:53 > 1:15:57condition because they took me to hospital, they realised that I was

1:15:57 > 1:16:02not well. I greeted them even though I was confused. It was on camera,

1:16:02 > 1:16:05they are filming me, I'm confused and elated and I can't believe that

1:16:05 > 1:16:08these people, it was like they came from nowhere and I was not going to

1:16:08 > 1:16:12have to make a last bid for freedom through the forest by myself. But

1:16:12 > 1:16:15once the adrenaline had worn off, they took me to hospital as soon as

1:16:15 > 1:16:20they could. You can't fake that kind of thing, and you can't fake war, it

1:16:20 > 1:16:22is ridiculous.

1:16:24 > 1:16:28Could you just say what it is like to be in that jungle in that area.

1:16:28 > 1:16:32It is hard for us to kind of understand sitting on a sofa in West

1:16:32 > 1:16:39London.It's an extraordinary place that can work to pull you apart. I

1:16:39 > 1:16:45knew when I was walking along with five local people, as we went from

1:16:45 > 1:16:51community to community more people were helping me, helping me. I knew

1:16:51 > 1:16:56I was the weakest, even though I am fit and strong and I'm used to the

1:16:56 > 1:16:58rainforests, I lived there. I was the one that was going to be pulled

1:16:58 > 1:17:01apart. I gave myself three weeks and I thought if I get out in three

1:17:01 > 1:17:06weeks, I will be safe, but my legs were stripped. The leaches, the

1:17:06 > 1:17:10rain, the trees that would thump down in the night in the rain

1:17:10 > 1:17:14storms, my moss qet owe net that was protecting my from malaria ripped

1:17:14 > 1:17:20apart. We were sleeping in a swamp as the water levels rose. I knew I

1:17:20 > 1:17:24was gradually falling apart, but it can be glorious too. It's a splendid

1:17:24 > 1:17:29place.My last question because we're running out of time. Next

1:17:29 > 1:17:32trip, if your family let you go on another trip, I'm not sure mine

1:17:32 > 1:17:36would, after this, are you going to take a satellite phone with you as

1:17:36 > 1:17:40emergency?We're going to have to a little discussion about this. I am

1:17:40 > 1:17:45not, I'm not saying, I have got to review my safety procedures, I

1:17:45 > 1:17:50think. I'm going to fight it all the way, but in the end, I have to take

1:17:50 > 1:17:54my wife's view into account and do the right thing by my family.I hope

1:17:54 > 1:17:58she is listening and watching. I hope you get over the malaria and

1:17:58 > 1:18:04the dengy. Thank you very much, that's Benedict Allen back from his

1:18:04 > 1:18:08slightly ill-fated track, some would say ill-advised, but he has survived

1:18:08 > 1:18:13and he is in one piece. Cheers, Frank. Frank Gardner talking to ben

1:18:13 > 1:18:16fict Allen and he looks very well considering what he has experienced,

1:18:16 > 1:18:18doesn't he?

1:18:19 > 1:18:21Senior Cabinet members are understood to have agreed

1:18:21 > 1:18:24that the UK should offer the EU more money as part of what's known

1:18:24 > 1:18:27as the divorce bill, but only if talks move on quickly

1:18:27 > 1:18:28to a trade deal.

1:18:28 > 1:18:33Our political correspondent Norman Smith can tell us more.

1:18:33 > 1:18:39OK, so, how is Mrs May managed to swing this?Well, it is quite an

1:18:39 > 1:18:44achievement because Boris Johnson and Michael Gove leading Brexiteers

1:18:44 > 1:18:47have been amongst the most sceptical about giving more cash to Brussels.

1:18:47 > 1:18:51Remember Boris Johnson just back in the summer said Brussels could go

1:18:51 > 1:18:55and whistle if they wanted a large slab of money to pay for us leaving

1:18:55 > 1:18:59the EU. Last night, they backed Mrs May and in effect agreed that we are

1:18:59 > 1:19:03going to have to up our divorce bill from the current offer of around £18

1:19:03 > 1:19:09billion. Why have they done that? A number of reasons, one is the

1:19:09 > 1:19:13realisation if we are going to move on to trade talks then we are going

1:19:13 > 1:19:17to have to up our offer. There is no other way around it. It is the

1:19:17 > 1:19:23political reality. But, they have also got amed in of strings attached

1:19:23 > 1:19:28to this extra money. One is that the EU won't just bank this money,

1:19:28 > 1:19:31prevaricate and demand more money, so we will only give them the money

1:19:31 > 1:19:36if they promise to move on to meaningful trade talks and will only

1:19:36 > 1:19:40settle on a final figure once we can see in black and white that the

1:19:40 > 1:19:44trade deal is going to be. All of which said, quite an achievement for

1:19:44 > 1:19:48Mrs May because there is all sorts of trouble brewing on the

1:19:48 > 1:19:50backbenches and Boris Johnson and Michael Gove wanted to cut up rough

1:19:50 > 1:19:54they too could have said no, we are not going to pay any more. Quite the

1:19:54 > 1:19:58reverse, they have said OK, we're ready to go along with the bigger

1:19:58 > 1:20:05divorce bill. Let me ask you about some other

1:20:05 > 1:20:10issues, two European agencies are leaving Britain and moving to other

1:20:10 > 1:20:13European capitals. Despite the fact that the Brexit secretary, David

1:20:13 > 1:20:18Davis, said that wouldn't happen? Well, I think in the end the sort of

1:20:18 > 1:20:24brutal truth is these are EU agencies. They are part of the

1:20:24 > 1:20:29infrastructure of the EU and with us leaving then other EU countries take

1:20:29 > 1:20:33the view well, it just wouldn't make any sense to leave some of our

1:20:33 > 1:20:37institutions in a third country and a country that was no longer part of

1:20:37 > 1:20:41the EU, but the consequence of it, the European Medicines Agency, that

1:20:41 > 1:20:47goes to Amsterdam, that's what around 800 or so jobs, often

1:20:47 > 1:20:51specialised, hi-tech valuable jobs. They are all lost. And we're also

1:20:51 > 1:20:55going to lose 190 banking jobs because the banking agency is also

1:20:55 > 1:20:59off to Paris which is a strange reversal because remember just five

1:20:59 > 1:21:03years ago, we used to boast that all the fraench bankers were coming

1:21:03 > 1:21:07here. Now it seems the flow is the other way, but I guess that is just

1:21:07 > 1:21:11part of the shake out from our departure from the EU.

1:21:11 > 1:21:18Can I ask you about this investigation into by the Electoral

1:21:18 > 1:21:23Commission into the vote Leave campaign and where they directed

1:21:23 > 1:21:29quite a lot of money?Well, the vote Leave campaign put a lot of effort

1:21:29 > 1:21:32into the social media campaign. A huge amount of their resources went

1:21:32 > 1:21:38into that. I think I read something like 40% of their total budget into

1:21:38 > 1:21:42that, but of course, there are strict rules about who you can give

1:21:42 > 1:21:47money to and they are alleged to have given money to a student who

1:21:47 > 1:21:53was running a sort of digital Brexit campaign, called Believe, but to get

1:21:53 > 1:21:58the money, he had to be entirely independent of the main vote Leave

1:21:58 > 1:22:01campaign and there are suggestions he wasn't so the Electoral

1:22:01 > 1:22:04Commission are looking into this. There are all sorts of allegations

1:22:04 > 1:22:11flying around about the referendum. Remember, the accusations about sort

1:22:11 > 1:22:17of Russian cyber bloggers using Twitter and social media to try and

1:22:17 > 1:22:21back the Brexit campaign all of which haven't really been firmed up

1:22:21 > 1:22:25yet, but there is a lot of allegation going around about

1:22:25 > 1:22:27whether people stuck strictly to the rules during the referendum

1:22:27 > 1:22:31campaign.We will see what happens. Thank you very much, Norman.

1:22:31 > 1:22:33Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen for North West Leicestershire,

1:22:33 > 1:22:34campaigned to leave the European Union.

1:22:34 > 1:22:35He joins me now from Westminster.

1:22:35 > 1:22:43Hello.Good morning.Boris Johnson and move have agreed that we should

1:22:43 > 1:22:49-- Michael Gove have agreed that we should pay more to Brussels, do you

1:22:49 > 1:22:52feel betrayed by them?Any shift in our negotiating position would be

1:22:52 > 1:22:56premature...Well, it's happening. We're going to pay them more, almost

1:22:56 > 1:23:00double?Well, that's disappointing with that's the case. I think it's

1:23:00 > 1:23:04premature and on the eve of a Budget, I think the timing is also

1:23:04 > 1:23:10not very clever. Do you feel betrayed by Boris

1:23:10 > 1:23:13Johnson and Michael Gove who have agreed to this?We have the

1:23:13 > 1:23:16principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Let's

1:23:16 > 1:23:21see what sort of trade deal the EU are willing to give us, but again, I

1:23:21 > 1:23:27think that's premature the fact is...We are expecting Mrs May to

1:23:27 > 1:23:30make this offer in EU talks to Donald Tusk?Let's wait until we

1:23:30 > 1:23:35hear it.I think you might be in denial?Well, you can think what you

1:23:35 > 1:23:40want. What I think is that the fact is we have full regulatory

1:23:40 > 1:23:43equivalence with the European Union. So, a trade deal with the European

1:23:43 > 1:23:47Union is not going to be anywhere near as complex as a trade deal with

1:23:47 > 1:23:51Canada or anywhere else because we don't need to have a level playing

1:23:51 > 1:23:55field, we've got a level playing field. It's a matter of if I'm the

1:23:55 > 1:23:58UK, we don't want tariffs on cars, what do you want? And just go

1:23:58 > 1:24:02through the list because if we have full regulatory equivalence at the

1:24:02 > 1:24:09moment. So a trade deal with the will to do one can be, a very short

1:24:09 > 1:24:14Thiem time, a matter of weeks and we are a long way from the end date of

1:24:14 > 1:24:16us leaving the European Union. When you look at the amount of taxpayers

1:24:16 > 1:24:20money there, is two years of transition, that's probably £20

1:24:20 > 1:24:24billion, possibly another £20 billion, £40 billion, you're talking

1:24:24 > 1:24:28about an amount of money the size of the education budget for a year,

1:24:28 > 1:24:33more than the defence budget, I'd like to see us fight a little harder

1:24:33 > 1:24:38and also we have the situation that there is absolute, well, confusion

1:24:38 > 1:24:44in Germany who are the main driver behind the European Union. Angela

1:24:44 > 1:24:49Merkel can't form a government. She is probably going to have to go for

1:24:49 > 1:24:51another general election in Germany. She may not be the Chancellor. Her

1:24:51 > 1:24:56ratings are falling. There could be no meaningful negotiations with the

1:24:56 > 1:24:59European Union going forward for a couple of months at least. So, why

1:24:59 > 1:25:03would you want to make concessions now when you don't have to?You have

1:25:03 > 1:25:07described it as disappointing if it's true. Next time you bump into

1:25:07 > 1:25:10Boris Johnson or Michael Gove what will you say to them? What language

1:25:10 > 1:25:14will you use to them?Let's see if there will be a statement in the

1:25:14 > 1:25:17House of Commons, but I would remind your viewers that any deal that's

1:25:17 > 1:25:22negotiated has got to get through the House of Commons and at the end

1:25:22 > 1:25:28of the day to vote for a deal, and not go to WTO which is a deal we

1:25:28 > 1:25:32could have for free, I've got to be able to look my constituents in

1:25:32 > 1:25:37North West Leicestershire who voted to leave, 61% to 39%, in the eye and

1:25:37 > 1:25:44say that I believe this is a good way to spend taxpayers money.Well,

1:25:44 > 1:25:48if it's true, it is around £38 billion which is what we're hearing

1:25:48 > 1:25:54from, you know, people in the know. Will you be able to say that to your

1:25:54 > 1:25:58constituents?Let's see what we get in return. We don't know what we're

1:25:58 > 1:26:01going to get in return and what trade deal they might offer us and

1:26:01 > 1:26:06it is bizarre that we're going to pay £40 billion or offer to pay £40

1:26:06 > 1:26:12billion to allow the EU to have a 90 billion euros trade surplus with us.

1:26:12 > 1:26:17That's not a great deal. But let's see where we get to. I just worry

1:26:17 > 1:26:21that because, if we're giving ground at this stage, with so much time

1:26:21 > 1:26:25left before we leave the European Union, that the EU will come back

1:26:25 > 1:26:30for more. In my book you can't feed a monster.

1:26:30 > 1:26:33Should the EU give money to Britain to gain access to the British

1:26:33 > 1:26:40market?Well, if this is a divorce and we are having to pay a lump sum

1:26:40 > 1:26:43payment, there is going to be a division of assets. Well, to start

1:26:43 > 1:26:47with, I think there is a few surveys out there that will say the EU

1:26:47 > 1:26:51probably owes us about £23 billion for the infrastructure that we've

1:26:51 > 1:26:56paid into. And also we've got 8 or 9 billion in the European development

1:26:56 > 1:27:00fund which is a bank that we need to have that money back as well. Let's

1:27:00 > 1:27:02see how all this pans out. Thank you very much.

1:27:02 > 1:27:09Thank you.

1:27:09 > 1:27:12Nine care homes in West Sussex are under investigation

1:27:12 > 1:27:14by the police for the possible mistreatment and neglect

1:27:14 > 1:27:16of dozens of residents.

1:27:16 > 1:27:20One of them is Beech Lodge near Horsham.

1:27:20 > 1:27:22Two years ago, before the current investigation opened,

1:27:22 > 1:27:25two other residents, both vulnerable adults suffered

1:27:25 > 1:27:28serious, unexplained injuries at that home.

1:27:28 > 1:27:30The men's families are calling on the police

1:27:30 > 1:27:32to re-open their cases.

1:27:32 > 1:27:39Our reporter Sangita Myska has been looking into this.

1:27:39 > 1:27:43Tell us a bit more about Gary Lewis and Matthew Bates

1:27:43 > 1:27:46and what happened to them.

1:27:46 > 1:27:51I need to take you back to 1st April 2015.It was on that day they were

1:27:51 > 1:27:54taken to the same hospital within hours of each other suffering the

1:27:54 > 1:27:58same injuries. Those injuries were breaks to their thigh bones. Mr

1:27:58 > 1:28:03Lewis was 64 at the time. Matthew Bates was just 30 years old at the

1:28:03 > 1:28:08time. Both of them have cerebral palsy. Both of them have a great

1:28:08 > 1:28:13deal of difficulty communicating and both of them have differing degrees

1:28:13 > 1:28:17of osteoporosis because they couldn't explain what happened to

1:28:17 > 1:28:21them, there was a safeguard inquiry led by the county council and they

1:28:21 > 1:28:24concluded that the injuries were likely to have been caused when the

1:28:24 > 1:28:27men were rolled or turned, at that point, there was a police

1:28:27 > 1:28:30investigation, but there were no arrests and no charges.

1:28:30 > 1:28:36Now, you have seen some of the men's medical records including x-rays.

1:28:36 > 1:28:41You have shown some of the men's medical records including x-rays to

1:28:41 > 1:28:44three independent orthopaedic surgeons. What did they have to say?

1:28:44 > 1:28:48So the families never had the opportunity to get a sort of third

1:28:48 > 1:28:51party view of what was going. We decided to approach three

1:28:51 > 1:28:55independent orthopaedic surgeons as you say and effectively they all

1:28:55 > 1:28:59concurred. They said it's not impossible, but it is highly unusual

1:28:59 > 1:29:03to see two such similar breaks in two men on the same day from the

1:29:03 > 1:29:07same care home. Both breaks they said had a twisting element to them

1:29:07 > 1:29:10and it was 30-year-old Matthew's injury that caused a little bit more

1:29:10 > 1:29:15concern than the other. And I was told that that would have required

1:29:15 > 1:29:20an element of energy to sustain that break. All of the surgeons suggested

1:29:20 > 1:29:24that rough handling or poor hoisting of the men may have been a possible

1:29:24 > 1:29:28cause of those breaks, but they couldn't be sure. They also went on

1:29:28 > 1:29:32to say that in their opinion they too would have suggested that the a

1:29:32 > 1:29:34very serious investigation took place to find out what happened.

1:29:34 > 1:29:41What do the families want now then? So, this summer, Beech Lodge became

1:29:41 > 1:29:45one of nine care homes to be put under police investigation into

1:29:45 > 1:29:50relation to the possible ill-treatment and neglect of a total

1:29:50 > 1:29:56of 43 residents, 12 of whom have died. All nine of those care homes

1:29:56 > 1:30:00including Beech Lodge are owned by a single company called Sussex health

1:30:00 > 1:30:04care. In the light of this big new inquiry, which seems to be a major

1:30:04 > 1:30:09inquiry, about 17 police officers involved, Gary and Matthew's

1:30:09 > 1:30:13families are asking the police to re-open their old cases just in case

1:30:13 > 1:30:17more evidence can be unearthed, but so far Sussex Police said no, the

1:30:17 > 1:30:21families say that's not fair and they are campaigning hard to get

1:30:21 > 1:30:25those cases included in the new inquiry.Have the police explained

1:30:25 > 1:30:28why they aren't tin clined to include Gary and Matthew's cases in

1:30:28 > 1:30:32the bigger investigation?

1:30:32 > 1:30:35We were careful to put every allegation in this report and others

1:30:35 > 1:30:41I've done, today to Sussex Police. They came back and said in 2015,

1:30:41 > 1:30:43they carried out a thorough investigation and they could not

1:30:43 > 1:30:47bring charges. They went on to say that the county council is bringing

1:30:47 > 1:30:51a serious case review that will be carried out by social services,

1:30:51 > 1:30:55adult social services team. We then went to Sussex health care, the

1:30:55 > 1:30:58company that owns all nine care homes and they said again that they

1:30:58 > 1:31:04fully cooperated with the authorities in 2015 and the home was

1:31:04 > 1:31:08interestingly rated good in 2015, the year of the injuries and was

1:31:08 > 1:31:13again rated good in 2017, just before this bigger inquiry opened up

1:31:13 > 1:31:18in the summer.You also have an independent review of the police did

1:31:18 > 1:31:22not read and Gary and Maggie's cases, who did you speak to?We

1:31:22 > 1:31:25decided to try to get another legal opinion about whether these cases

1:31:25 > 1:31:30were reasonable, whether the families requests were reasonable,

1:31:30 > 1:31:37so we approached Nazir Afzal, the former head of the CPS in the

1:31:37 > 1:31:40north-west who has dealt with thousands of cases like this in his

1:31:40 > 1:31:44time. He told us the families' requests in his were not

1:31:44 > 1:31:50unreasonable, and he said it maybe you'll benefit to the police to see

1:31:50 > 1:31:53if there are, -- there are common patterns, individuals and practices

1:31:53 > 1:31:56from Gary and Matthew's cases which may impinge on their present

1:31:56 > 1:32:02investigation. Both families have told us that they will carry on

1:32:02 > 1:32:04campaigning to get those cases reopened and they are pursuing other

1:32:04 > 1:32:07legal routes as well to see what more they can find.Thank you for

1:32:07 > 1:32:08joining us.

1:32:08 > 1:32:11Still to come.

1:32:11 > 1:32:13The family plea for a former Uefa executive to get in touch

1:32:13 > 1:32:18after he disappeared from his home five weeks ago.

1:32:18 > 1:32:27And with shoppers expected to spend £10 billion this week

1:32:27 > 1:32:30as the infamous Black Friday extends beyond the one-day-only sale,

1:32:30 > 1:32:34we'll be looking at how genuine the deals really are.

1:32:34 > 1:32:40Time for the latest news, here's Rebecca.

1:32:40 > 1:32:42The headlines this morning.

1:32:42 > 1:32:44The BBC understands that senior Cabinet figures have agreed Britain

1:32:44 > 1:32:47should offer to pay more money to leave the EU,

1:32:47 > 1:32:50but only if member states agree to move on to discussing

1:32:50 > 1:32:51trade next month.

1:32:51 > 1:32:54Theresa May met colleagues including Michael Gove

1:32:54 > 1:32:57and Boris Johnson last night, and is expected to make

1:32:57 > 1:33:02the new offer to the EU during talks later this week.

1:33:02 > 1:33:06The Government's borrowing level rose by £500 million last

1:33:06 > 1:33:11month, reaching a total of £8 billion .

1:33:11 > 1:33:14That's up 6.9% compared with October 2016,

1:33:14 > 1:33:24according to the Office for National Statistics.

1:33:24 > 1:33:27Economists had been expecting a lower figure of £7.5 billion.

1:33:27 > 1:33:29Robert Mugabe is expected to face the start of impeachment proceedings

1:33:29 > 1:33:32today after refusing to step down as President of Zimbabwe.

1:33:32 > 1:33:34The country's ruling party, Zanu-PF, said the process could take just

1:33:34 > 1:33:38two days to complete.

1:33:38 > 1:33:40The 93-year-old, who remains under armed guard, is accused

1:33:40 > 1:33:44of allowing his wife to seize power illegally.

1:33:44 > 1:33:46Last night, the military suggested a plan was emerging

1:33:46 > 1:33:55for the transfer of power.

1:33:55 > 1:33:57The Competition and Markets Authority says the drugs company

1:33:57 > 1:34:06Conor Coady abused its position. -- the drugs company Concordia abused

1:34:06 > 1:34:10its position by overcharging the NHS for thyroid medicine. A decade ago,

1:34:10 > 1:34:17it costs £4.36 per packet, it has since risen to £258 per packet, an

1:34:17 > 1:34:28increase of almost 6000%. That is a summary of the latest BBC News.

1:34:28 > 1:34:32Stephen on Facebook says, "I have four Christmas trees up in my pub

1:34:32 > 1:34:38already. The celebrations start in the heart. Enjoy today and live for

1:34:38 > 1:34:41tomorrow". I absolutely concur with the latter half of that statement,

1:34:41 > 1:34:44it is just putting the Christmas trees up so early is not for me.

1:34:44 > 1:34:47Here's some sport now with Olly.

1:34:47 > 1:34:51These are the headlines. Alastair Cook says England have pretty much

1:34:51 > 1:34:54accepted that Ben Stokes won't play a part in the Ashes Series that

1:34:54 > 1:35:00starts on Thursday. The all-rounder posted pictures of himself in Durham

1:35:00 > 1:35:06yesterday. That is actually England's training in Brisbane.

1:35:06 > 1:35:09Stokes is awaiting the outcome of a police investigation into a brawl

1:35:09 > 1:35:13outside a nightclub, he was arrested on suspicion of causing actual

1:35:13 > 1:35:16bodily harm. The women's Ashes Series comes to an end today, in a

1:35:16 > 1:35:20next hour or so, Australia have already retain the Ashes but England

1:35:20 > 1:35:25could level the series if they win the final T20 today, but they are up

1:35:25 > 1:35:30against it, Beth Mooney hitting an unbeaten 117 as Australia posted

1:35:30 > 1:35:36178-2, and England are 107-3 in reply but over is running out.

1:35:36 > 1:35:39Brighton R&B Duminy five Premier League matches after drawing 2-2 at

1:35:39 > 1:35:42home against O, coming from behind twice to remain in the top half of

1:35:42 > 1:35:47the table. One of Great Britain's most successful female drivers,

1:35:47 > 1:35:51Tonia Couch has retired. The former European champion and Commonwealth

1:35:51 > 1:35:54silver medallist is going to pursue a career in coaching. That is all

1:35:54 > 1:35:57for me. I will be back after 11 on BBC News.

1:35:59 > 1:36:01The family of a former Uefa executive who disappeared

1:36:01 > 1:36:05from his home five weeks ago shortly after being diagnosed with bipolar

1:36:05 > 1:36:08disorder are appealing for him to get in touch.

1:36:08 > 1:36:1151-year-old Bernie Ross, who had previously been responsible

1:36:11 > 1:36:13for putting on some of football's biggest tournaments,

1:36:13 > 1:36:16left his wife and four children in Oxfordshire, saying

1:36:16 > 1:36:19he was travelling to visit his sister in London.

1:36:19 > 1:36:21He never visited his sister and never returned home,

1:36:21 > 1:36:31leaving behind his wallet, phone and extra clothes.

1:36:33 > 1:36:35Jacinta Ross, Bernie's wife who is desperate for him to return

1:36:35 > 1:36:37home safely is here.

1:36:37 > 1:36:41How are you doing?It is difficult. Each day is difficult. I can't

1:36:41 > 1:36:47believe it has gone on for so long. We are just counting the hours every

1:36:47 > 1:36:55day.How are the kids? They are OK, they are quite resilient, and they

1:36:55 > 1:36:59are trying to carry on as normal, they have got busy lives, lots of

1:36:59 > 1:37:03activities and their schools have been great.The first few weeks were

1:37:03 > 1:37:07OK but now they are looking towards Christmas and wondering whether he

1:37:07 > 1:37:12will be back by then. It is difficult. They are trying to be

1:37:12 > 1:37:18strong for me, I think.They are aged between 11 and 18 so I suppose

1:37:18 > 1:37:22they have the capacity to be strong for you when they need to be.Yes, I

1:37:22 > 1:37:27mean, the eldest did not go to university because of this. The

1:37:27 > 1:37:30second one down is doing his A-levels, so it has been quite

1:37:30 > 1:37:37disruptive.Tell us about your husband.He's lovely. I'm biased,

1:37:37 > 1:37:43obviously but he is a lovely, gentle man, universally popular with his

1:37:43 > 1:37:48colleagues. He's got a reputation for being very calm under pressure.

1:37:48 > 1:37:55That is why he is so good at live TV. The just giving page says it

1:37:55 > 1:37:58all, when he fell ill, his colleagues rallied round and they

1:37:58 > 1:38:02raised money and the comments they made were really uplifting and

1:38:02 > 1:38:09helped Bernie a lot. He is very funny and fun loving, relaxed kind

1:38:09 > 1:38:14of guy. Just ordinary.When you say he fell ill, you are referring to

1:38:14 > 1:38:19the diagnosis of bipolar which came in January. What impact did it have

1:38:19 > 1:38:25on him?I think actually come he was relieved to have the diagnosis at

1:38:25 > 1:38:28that point because he knew he was ill, we all knew he was ill but we

1:38:28 > 1:38:36did not know what exactly was wrong. So to get the treatment and to be

1:38:36 > 1:38:40hospitalised actually probably was a relief as much of anything else.And

1:38:40 > 1:38:47the effect on the rest of you?Oh... It has been a very tough year.

1:38:47 > 1:38:52Nothing really prepares you for it. Being hospitalised, falling ill,

1:38:52 > 1:38:59losing your job... We are just an ordinary family whose life has been

1:38:59 > 1:39:04turned upside down and inside out. I didn't think it could get any worse

1:39:04 > 1:39:10but his disappearance as... Yeah. When was the last time you saw your

1:39:10 > 1:39:16husband, tell us about it?It was on the 18th and I did not see him leave

1:39:16 > 1:39:18the house because I went upstairs and he was going to leave while I

1:39:18 > 1:39:25was up there. But you know, he seemed normal, happy, the medication

1:39:25 > 1:39:30he was taking was having a good effect and he seemed to have a new

1:39:30 > 1:39:35kind of clarity, actually, about his situation. So I would say generally,

1:39:35 > 1:39:42he was fairly up.And he said he was going to visit his sister in London.

1:39:42 > 1:39:47You live in Oxfordshire. There would be no reason for you to doubt that,

1:39:47 > 1:39:51presumably.No, no. And also, it would not have been that unusual for

1:39:51 > 1:39:55him to do that and stay the night which is what he said which is why

1:39:55 > 1:39:59we did not really pick up he had not gone there until the next day.What

1:39:59 > 1:40:03did he take with him and leave behind?He took very little with

1:40:03 > 1:40:08him, he left his phone and wallet and he left all of his clothes as

1:40:08 > 1:40:15far as I can see. Even his wash bag is still at home. He did not take

1:40:15 > 1:40:20much with him which was why we thought he would not be a way very

1:40:20 > 1:40:26long initially.But he did take his passport.Yes. And the Post Office

1:40:26 > 1:40:32card.So when you think about somebody taking their passport, what

1:40:32 > 1:40:38does it lead you to think?Well, he clearly was intending to travel. He

1:40:38 > 1:40:42did not just find himself in France. I think he had the intention of

1:40:42 > 1:40:46travelling when he left that day and when he left and went to London. I

1:40:46 > 1:40:51have had to come to terms with the idea that this was preplanned,

1:40:51 > 1:40:57actually.Because there have been sightings in France?Yeah.What do

1:40:57 > 1:41:05you think might be going on?Well, the doctors think that in bipolar

1:41:05 > 1:41:08patients, anniversaries are very significant and the anniversary of

1:41:08 > 1:41:14what went on this time last year at his job will be a trigger, a huge

1:41:14 > 1:41:22trigger, for him and that might have triggered this episode, that they

1:41:22 > 1:41:26think he may be in some kind of manic state in some way. The big

1:41:26 > 1:41:32worry is that it might turn into a depressive state. He has got mixed

1:41:32 > 1:41:34affective states which is when you can be manic and depressive

1:41:34 > 1:41:39simultaneously. I don't know about you but I find that almost

1:41:39 > 1:41:42impossible to imagine what it must be like, how confusing, very the

1:41:42 > 1:41:51will bring. -- very bewildering. The doctors think that this is all

1:41:51 > 1:41:54related, his disappearance is linked to the unresolved issues he has got

1:41:54 > 1:42:02with his employers.This interview will be put on social media. If your

1:42:02 > 1:42:08husband happens to see this, what would you say to him directly.Get

1:42:08 > 1:42:14in touch, please, please get in touch. Immediately. You know, we

1:42:14 > 1:42:21need him back. Somebody started Bernie Back Home For Christmas and

1:42:21 > 1:42:26my heart sank because it seems like a long time away to me. But we need

1:42:26 > 1:42:30him home and we can solve anything together so he needs to come back.

1:42:30 > 1:42:38Thank you for joining us.Thank you for your time.

1:42:38 > 1:42:46Let me bring you this news. I'm just reading it myself the time from

1:42:46 > 1:42:48Durham Police, seven former members of staff are being prosecuted over

1:42:48 > 1:42:53alleged abuse and misconduct at a detention centre. This is the

1:42:53 > 1:42:59Medomsley detention centre, following claims made by almost 1500

1:42:59 > 1:43:07former inmates. Detectives in Durham are launching an investigation,

1:43:07 > 1:43:09sorry, launched the investigation of years ago and they have now

1:43:09 > 1:43:14interviewed former members of staff. Almost 1500 men have claimed they

1:43:14 > 1:43:19were abused at this detention centre during the 1970s and 1980s and seven

1:43:19 > 1:43:23former members of staff are now going to be prosecuted over alleged

1:43:23 > 1:43:28abuse and misconduct there. That is from Durham Police.

1:43:28 > 1:43:32Zimbabwe's ruling party plan to impeach President Mugabe today

1:43:32 > 1:43:34on charges that include allowing his wife "to usurp

1:43:34 > 1:43:36constitutional power".

1:43:36 > 1:43:38In other words, he allowed her to have too much power.

1:43:38 > 1:43:42It was only six days ago that the Armed Forces took control

1:43:42 > 1:43:47of a TV station and put Mugabe under house arrest.

1:43:59 > 1:44:03We wish to make it abundantly clear that this is not a military takeover

1:44:03 > 1:44:05of government.

1:44:23 > 1:44:26Everyone is feeling this enormous sense of anticipation. They know,

1:44:26 > 1:44:30they believe that President Robert Mugabe, the only man they have ever

1:44:30 > 1:44:34known in charge of this country, really is on the cusp of stepping

1:44:34 > 1:44:37down and so there is this anticipation, this feeling that

1:44:37 > 1:44:39people want to celebrate.

1:44:44 > 1:44:51What does this mean for you?A new Zimbabwe, freedom has finally come!

1:44:51 > 1:45:00CHEERING They are saying this is their second

1:45:00 > 1:45:02independence.

1:45:18 > 1:45:26There has to be a net return to the guiding principles of our party.

1:45:26 > 1:45:31Tomorrow, the committee will be set up tomorrow and hopefully by

1:45:31 > 1:45:34Wednesday, we expect that by Wednesday, we should be able to vote

1:45:34 > 1:45:35in parliament.

1:45:39 > 1:45:41Shepherd Yuda is a former civil servant and government worker,

1:45:41 > 1:45:44who says he suffered at the hands of the Mugabe regime

1:45:44 > 1:45:45by being tortured.

1:45:45 > 1:45:47His uncle was murdered for supporting the Movement

1:45:47 > 1:45:49for Democratic Change.

1:45:49 > 1:45:53Jasper Maposa works with young people in Zimbabwe who he says

1:45:53 > 1:45:56are manipulated and bribed into committing crimes such

1:45:56 > 1:45:59as beating up political opponents, and Ben Freeth whose land was seized

1:45:59 > 1:46:06by the Mugabe regime.

1:46:06 > 1:46:12Ben is with us. His land was seized. You are tried to sue Mugabe for

1:46:12 > 1:46:16seizing your land. What happened as a result of you trying to sue him?

1:46:16 > 1:46:21Well, we did sue him and two weeks before the actual main hearing of

1:46:21 > 1:46:25the case we ended up being abducted and taken off to one of the torture

1:46:25 > 1:46:31camps where there were a lot of young people who were being indock

1:46:31 > 1:46:39tinnated into hate and indoctrinated into beating up the opposition

1:46:39 > 1:46:43violently and we were taken out to that camp that and they wanted us to

1:46:43 > 1:46:48sign a bit of paper to withdraw from the court and obviously, the court

1:46:48 > 1:46:55which the hearing was coming up in two weeks' time, at that stage, my

1:46:55 > 1:47:02faerl and myself were unconscious, my mother-in-law was still compus

1:47:02 > 1:47:07mentus, and with a gun to her head and they had already broken her arm

1:47:07 > 1:47:14very badly. They thrust a burning stick into her mouth, they had

1:47:14 > 1:47:18beaten her around the head, they got her to sign that bit of paper to say

1:47:18 > 1:47:24that we would not carry on with this legal case.Right. Can I ask you

1:47:24 > 1:47:32Ben, what you think of the prospect of Mugabe's Vice-President, taking

1:47:32 > 1:47:36over? A man who was part of the system that Mugabe created and some

1:47:36 > 1:47:44say is every bit as nasty as his ex-boss?Well, I think we are all

1:47:44 > 1:47:50extremely concerned about him taking over. He was Minister of State

1:47:50 > 1:47:57security during the time when Mugabe murdered about 20,000 people in the

1:47:57 > 1:48:05south of the country earlier on in his reign. He has presided over many

1:48:05 > 1:48:11of the violent things that Mugabe has done to remain in power right

1:48:11 > 1:48:15the way through and we are very circumspect and worried about what

1:48:15 > 1:48:20he might do if he was able to take power.

1:48:20 > 1:48:25Shepherd, thank you for talking to us. I wonder what your feeling about

1:48:25 > 1:48:30the prospects of impeachment of Mr Mugabe and his right-hand man, his

1:48:30 > 1:48:37Vice-President, potentially taking over?Hello.Hi Shepherd, can you

1:48:37 > 1:48:44hear me OK?Yes. Yes, I can hear you now. Yes. Can you come back again?

1:48:44 > 1:48:47Yes, of course, what are you thinking about, about what might

1:48:47 > 1:48:52happen over the next few days and weeks, President Mugabe being

1:48:52 > 1:48:56impeached and his Vice-President potentially taking over the running

1:48:56 > 1:49:00of the country?It's a very unfortunate situation for

1:49:00 > 1:49:05Zimbabweans to say look, that there is certainly no change. Whether we

1:49:05 > 1:49:13have got Mugabe, whether we have got the Vice-President, these people

1:49:13 > 1:49:18have been there for too long. Everything that happened in Zimbabwe

1:49:18 > 1:49:22it was through these two guys. There is no change at all.

1:49:22 > 1:49:27So you don't think there is any chance of reform, but there is

1:49:27 > 1:49:30potentially a chance of free and fair elections for the first time,

1:49:30 > 1:49:36isn't there or not?That would be impossible. We are not going to have

1:49:36 > 1:49:41any free and fair elections because if I take you back to 2008, if you

1:49:41 > 1:50:00don't mind. Right, in 2008, it was the Vice-President in the military.

1:50:00 > 1:50:04He will not run in an election that he loses except if the election is

1:50:04 > 1:50:08run by the United Nations or monitored by the United Nations.

1:50:08 > 1:50:19That will have a fair chance of a fair election.

1:50:19 > 1:50:23You work with young people who sayer bribed into beating up political

1:50:23 > 1:50:36opponents. Tell our British audience more about this?

1:50:43 > 1:50:47The issue is cam pant and the factors that have led to this

1:50:47 > 1:50:52unfortunate situation is the continued economic meltdown. We

1:50:52 > 1:50:57remember from the 1990s our economy has always been on the doldrums. It

1:50:57 > 1:51:03has been poorly performing and through the lend reform programme

1:51:03 > 1:51:11until now. So the young people who were born have not known another

1:51:11 > 1:51:20life which can give them access to employment. It is a life of struggle

1:51:20 > 1:51:30and they find themselves and the system is realised that this is

1:51:30 > 1:51:35ready for political abuse and they really do whatever they told to do

1:51:35 > 1:51:48so they can have access to natural resource and gold.Let's assume

1:51:48 > 1:51:52Mugabe is impeached and the Vice-President takes over. That may,

1:51:52 > 1:51:57of course, not happen, we will have to see how things unfold over the

1:51:57 > 1:52:01next few days and weeks. What impact would that have on young people in

1:52:01 > 1:52:12Zimbabwe? That would be a sad development.

1:52:12 > 1:52:20People are happy to have change. As a person working with young people,

1:52:20 > 1:52:24I have seen in the aftermath of the Vice-President, I have seen the

1:52:24 > 1:52:35youth were alined. They ransacked the towns and cities and they

1:52:35 > 1:52:44started to take everything belonging to the youth alined to Mnangagwa.

1:52:44 > 1:52:59Mnangagwa is bouncing back.

1:53:01 > 1:53:08So, the politics are the one that's the problem and if the young people

1:53:08 > 1:53:12continue to fight each other on the basis of who is on the top of the

1:53:12 > 1:53:16game. This is not good news for the young people. We need a clean sheet.

1:53:16 > 1:53:24A clean transition. It would be better if we have free and fair

1:53:24 > 1:53:29elections and whoever wins, wins. If I come back to Ben. The subject

1:53:29 > 1:53:33of free and fair elections it would be the first time in a long time,

1:53:33 > 1:53:39but President Mugabe won an election legitimately in 1980, but does not,

1:53:39 > 1:53:43I mean doesn't Emerson Mnangagwa know that in order to get for

1:53:43 > 1:53:50example, funds from IMF to help your economy, that a condition would be

1:53:50 > 1:53:54to have free and fair elections. He is pragmatic in that sense, isn't

1:53:54 > 1:54:01he?Well, I think absolutely. We need to push very hard first of all

1:54:01 > 1:54:05for the constitution to be followed and in this case, I don't think

1:54:05 > 1:54:09Emerson Mnangagwa can end up on top if the constitution is followed. We

1:54:09 > 1:54:14need to go for a transitional authority which will then end up

1:54:14 > 1:54:24with free and fair elections at the end of it, with possibly Mnangagwa

1:54:24 > 1:54:30or Tsvangirai and someone who would ensure that things were done

1:54:30 > 1:54:32properly an internationally run election could happen. We will not

1:54:32 > 1:54:37get a free and fair election so long as Mnangagwa is running the

1:54:37 > 1:54:43election.So what has to happen then?I believe that there has to be

1:54:43 > 1:54:47a transitional authority established where those that the coup leaders if

1:54:47 > 1:54:53you like get together with the opposition, they thrash out a plan

1:54:53 > 1:54:57whereby we are working towards a free and fair election and we run

1:54:57 > 1:55:02with that. It's obviously going to be a big risk for Mnangagwa to do

1:55:02 > 1:55:07that, but they pulled it off last time in 2009 and I believe that they

1:55:07 > 1:55:10will believe they can pull it off again.All right. Thank you all very

1:55:10 > 1:55:17much. We appreciate your time, thank you.

1:55:17 > 1:55:25Shoppers are expected to spend £10 billion this week

1:55:25 > 1:55:29as Black Friday extends beyond one day only, Friday, to try

1:55:29 > 1:55:33and lure in shoppers between now and Christmas.

1:55:33 > 1:55:35I have started already.

1:55:35 > 1:55:39I was eyeing up a laptop two weeks ago to see what the prices are now

1:55:39 > 1:55:42to when the Black Friday hits so yeah, it makes you hold out

1:55:42 > 1:55:45for the sales if you are a month in between it.

1:55:45 > 1:55:47Having Black Friday prompts you to look for deals.

1:55:47 > 1:55:49Throughout the year you are trying to save money

1:55:49 > 1:55:53and not be so frivolous.

1:55:53 > 1:55:55If there's something that I like then yeah,

1:55:55 > 1:55:58but I'm not going to go out searching which deals are out

1:55:58 > 1:56:00there because it's never really a significant deal.

1:56:00 > 1:56:03Sometimes they double the prices and then just half them and then

1:56:03 > 1:56:06you're paying what you would pay the rest of the year anyway.

1:56:06 > 1:56:09I tend to wait until Boxing Day because the deals tend to be better

1:56:09 > 1:56:14on Boxing Day rather than Black Friday.

1:56:21 > 1:56:28But we can't wait until Boxing Day, can we?

1:56:28 > 1:56:30Joining us now, Kate Hardcastle, a consumer expert at

1:56:30 > 1:56:31Insight With Passion.

1:56:31 > 1:56:34Kerenza Richards runs the Coupon Mama UK Facebook page.

1:56:34 > 1:56:39Hello both of you. Kate how is Black Friday changed since it first made

1:56:39 > 1:56:43its way across the Atlantic?It changed things for retailers because

1:56:43 > 1:56:47commonly at this time which we call the golden quarter, between

1:56:47 > 1:56:50September and December, when you would want to sell most of your

1:56:50 > 1:56:54merchandise, we have got a heavy discounting period, but what came

1:56:54 > 1:56:59across as a bit of a surprise to key retailers because this is an

1:56:59 > 1:57:01American promotion has now been something they have caught up with.

1:57:01 > 1:57:06So as you have been hearing from your vice viewers a lot of the

1:57:06 > 1:57:09promotions are not as again went as they seem.I haven't got much time

1:57:09 > 1:57:20left. What are the best deals out there at moment? Tell our viewers?

1:57:20 > 1:57:32LG55 inch 4K TV, down to £549 in Curry's. A bottle of Calvin Klein

1:57:32 > 1:57:41reduced from £68 to £29. We have got GHDs, they are £75.99 down from

1:57:41 > 1:57:45£129.99.Is this the kind of stuff that you will be buying or just

1:57:45 > 1:57:50recommending to people on your Facebook page?I bought the Xbox

1:57:50 > 1:57:55bundle for my daughter for Christmas.How much did you save?

1:57:55 > 1:57:59£100 I saved on that.When do you start shopping for Christmas then?

1:57:59 > 1:58:06January.Do you?Yeah. You get the best deals in January.I am a bit

1:58:06 > 1:58:14late then?It is really good to shop out of season. I buy my winner

1:58:14 > 1:58:18wardrobe in summer and winter wardrobe in summer.You have got it

1:58:18 > 1:58:23sorted. Thank you very much. I am sorry about the short amount of

1:58:23 > 1:58:31time. Thank you, we appreciate it. Thank you. We are back tomorrow at

1:58:31 > 1:58:329am. Have

1:58:33 > 1:58:34# The world was on fire... #