29/11/2017

0:00:04 > 0:00:07Hello.

0:00:07 > 0:00:09It's Wedneday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

0:00:09 > 0:00:10welcome to the programme.

0:00:10 > 0:00:14If you voted to Leave the EU, what do you think of the size

0:00:14 > 0:00:24of the divorce bill to get out of the European Union?

0:00:25 > 0:00:28It's reported the UK cld pay between 40 and 55 billion euros

0:00:28 > 0:00:30to cover its liabilities, after the government

0:00:30 > 0:00:32upped the figure.

0:00:32 > 0:00:35A deal on the Brexit bill seems imminent.

0:00:35 > 0:00:40Tell us what you think of the figure.

0:00:40 > 0:00:41Who do you blame?

0:00:41 > 0:00:44And do you recall the leave campaign telling you it would be this sort

0:00:44 > 0:00:46of amount to get out of the EU?

0:00:46 > 0:00:48Asylum seekers are facing a "lottery" depending

0:00:48 > 0:00:50on where their appeal is heard according to research

0:00:50 > 0:00:52seen by this programme and some are being forced

0:00:52 > 0:00:54to represent themselves in complex cases.

0:00:54 > 0:00:57Why is it acceptable that someone faces removal from this country,

0:00:57 > 0:01:00quite possibly to persecution or death with no legal representative?

0:01:00 > 0:01:08It is not acceptable. We will bring you our exclusive

0:01:08 > 0:01:12report.

0:01:12 > 0:01:14And nominated for best newcomer at tonight's Mobo Award.

0:01:14 > 0:01:24We'll talk to London-born rapper Young Bane.

0:01:31 > 0:01:35Hello.

0:01:35 > 0:01:37Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11am this morning.

0:01:37 > 0:01:40If you voted for Brexit, let us know if this bill

0:01:40 > 0:01:42for billions of pounds - our so-called divorce

0:01:42 > 0:01:45settlement - is a price worth paying to leave the EU?

0:01:45 > 0:01:47And what about the size of the bill?

0:01:47 > 0:01:49Who set that out clearly during the campaign ahead

0:01:49 > 0:01:52of the EU referendum?

0:01:52 > 0:01:59We would love to talk to some of you on the programme.

0:01:59 > 0:02:04You can e-mail me or send me a message on Twitter. If you are

0:02:04 > 0:02:09texting you will be charged and there is Facebook and whatsapp.

0:02:09 > 0:02:11Our top story today, the BBC understands that the government has

0:02:11 > 0:02:14offered the European Union between 40 and 55 billion euros,

0:02:14 > 0:02:16as the financial settlement to withdraw from the EU.

0:02:16 > 0:02:19It's become known as the Brexit divorce bill, and has been one

0:02:19 > 0:02:22of the main sticking points in the negotiations.

0:02:22 > 0:02:27Previously, Theresa May has suggested that the UK was willing

0:02:27 > 0:02:30to pay 20 billion euros, but there have been calls from

0:02:30 > 0:02:35Brussels for that to be increased.

0:02:35 > 0:02:40Norman is at Westminster. So they have upped the figure. And what an

0:02:40 > 0:02:44enormous sum of money.It's going up and up and up. We started off during

0:02:44 > 0:02:48the referendum campaign being told we would be quids in. It would be

0:02:48 > 0:02:53Brussels giving us money back. £350 million net for the NHS. Then we had

0:02:53 > 0:02:59Mrs May in her Florence speech just a few months ago saying actually, we

0:02:59 > 0:03:03will give you maybe around 20 billion euros. Now, all the

0:03:03 > 0:03:08indications are we could be paying in the 40s. We don't have a specific

0:03:08 > 0:03:12figure, vast amounts of speculation in some of the papers. Here we have

0:03:12 > 0:03:17the Guardian, UK faces £50 billion divorce bill. Similar story in the

0:03:17 > 0:03:22Times. Britain to pay EU bill for decades. That's because we may not

0:03:22 > 0:03:26know the final sum that we're going to pay for many, many years to come

0:03:26 > 0:03:31and the reason for that is we're not going to hand over a wadge of cash

0:03:31 > 0:03:35and say, "Here you are, here is £40 billion." This will be a sum

0:03:35 > 0:03:39assessed every year looking at our liabilities every year and may not

0:03:39 > 0:03:44be paid off until really many, many years' time. So calculating the

0:03:44 > 0:03:49final figure may be extremely hard. Haven't been helped this morning by

0:03:49 > 0:03:57the good people of Brussels, we had Michel Barnier arriving for work,

0:03:57 > 0:04:01saying pretty much ziltho. Have a listen.

0:04:01 > 0:04:06REPORTER: Do you welcome Britain's decision to pay more?We keep

0:04:06 > 0:04:11working. I thought that was almost a shrug of

0:04:11 > 0:04:18the shoulder. What of folk here? Well, you might expect Brexiteers to

0:04:18 > 0:04:21be angry at the amount we are thinking of giving to Brussels. They

0:04:21 > 0:04:24are, whether they are going to kick up over it is another thing

0:04:24 > 0:04:29altogether. They seem to suspect that it is Brussels that has put

0:04:29 > 0:04:33this figure out here to try and bounce Mrs May into accepting it. In

0:04:33 > 0:04:40other words, it is a crafty ploy to get Mrs May to up the stakes. Others

0:04:40 > 0:04:46are pointing the finger of blame at Mrs May's chief negotiator, Oliver

0:04:46 > 0:04:50Robins saying he has been rolled over by the eurocrats. You listen to

0:04:50 > 0:04:55Chris Grayling, Transport Secretary and prominent Brexiteer. He said the

0:04:55 > 0:05:00priority has to be trying to leave the EU on good terms.I don't think

0:05:00 > 0:05:04it is a question of putting figures on it at this moment in time, we

0:05:04 > 0:05:10said we will fulfil our obligations. It is right and proper over a 40

0:05:10 > 0:05:15year of membership you do build up liabilities. We want to walk away

0:05:15 > 0:05:17with good relation and remain good friends and neighbours of the

0:05:17 > 0:05:21European Union. Of course, nothing is agreed until everything is

0:05:21 > 0:05:24agreed, but we accept there are obligations we built up and we will

0:05:24 > 0:05:26meet them as the Prime Minister said.So what can we day for

0:05:26 > 0:05:32definite? Well, one, we are going to end up paying a lot more than the 20

0:05:32 > 0:05:38billion euros that Mrs May flagged up a couple of months ago in

0:05:38 > 0:05:44Florence. Two, we do seem to be inching towards a deal at the

0:05:44 > 0:05:48crucial December summit. When you look at the mood music surrounding

0:05:48 > 0:05:51this summit compared to the one in October where we were told you have

0:05:51 > 0:05:55not done enough, you can't move on to trade talks, this time there is a

0:05:55 > 0:05:59different feel and I think there is almost an expectation, perhaps not

0:05:59 > 0:06:03quite, that we will get the green light to move on to those crucial

0:06:03 > 0:06:07trade talks. Thank you very much, Norman.

0:06:07 > 0:06:12Some messages from you on that, Ben Anderson says, "Anyone who voted

0:06:12 > 0:06:16leave should be hiding under a rock. It's shameful." Ministry of Matt

0:06:16 > 0:06:20says, "I would like you to explain what the £40 billion is for.

0:06:20 > 0:06:23Otherwise you are pushing the lie that it's a ransom." We will do

0:06:23 > 0:06:27that. Don't worry. We will talk more about this through the programme.

0:06:27 > 0:06:31Let me know your views whether you voted Leave or Remain. What do you

0:06:31 > 0:06:35think of the size of the amount that's being talked about? Do you

0:06:35 > 0:06:39want to be told the specific figure or a more specific figure rather

0:06:39 > 0:06:43than the sum between 40 and 55 billion euros? Is it worth paying

0:06:43 > 0:06:46that money to leave the European Union? Many of you will think it is.

0:06:46 > 0:06:50Let me know your views. We would love to talk to you on the

0:06:50 > 0:06:55programme. Now the news with Anita.

0:06:55 > 0:06:57North Korea has carried out another ballistic missile test -

0:06:57 > 0:06:58its first for two months.

0:06:58 > 0:07:00Pyongyang says the missile which landed in Japanese waters

0:07:00 > 0:07:04is a new type of weapon and its most powerful yet.

0:07:04 > 0:07:06Experts believe that North Korea has demonstrated for the first time

0:07:06 > 0:07:11that it could now hit most of the American mainland.

0:07:11 > 0:07:13President Donald Trump was briefed while the missile

0:07:13 > 0:07:17was still in the air.

0:07:17 > 0:07:20Thank you very much.

0:07:20 > 0:07:24As you probably have heard, and some of you have reported,

0:07:24 > 0:07:27a missile was launched a little while ago from North Korea.

0:07:27 > 0:07:30I will only tell you that we'll take care of it.

0:07:30 > 0:07:32We have General Mattis in the room with us,

0:07:32 > 0:07:34and we had a long discussion on it.

0:07:34 > 0:07:37It's a situation that we will handle.

0:07:37 > 0:07:40A 15-year-old boy has been charged with causing the deaths by dangerous

0:07:40 > 0:07:44driving of three children and two men who died in a collision

0:07:44 > 0:07:47in Leeds on Saturday.

0:07:47 > 0:07:49The teenager is due to appear at Leeds Magistrates'

0:07:49 > 0:07:53Court this morning.

0:07:53 > 0:07:59All five victims were in the car when it crashed.

0:07:59 > 0:08:00The youngest were brothers aged 12 and 14.

0:08:00 > 0:08:03Police have appealed for information.

0:08:03 > 0:08:08Lawyers for a man found guilty of murdering a mother and daughter

0:08:08 > 0:08:11in Kent in 1996 say they'll release significant new evidence today that

0:08:11 > 0:08:18casts doubt on his conviction.

0:08:18 > 0:08:20Lyn Russell and her six-year-old daughter, Megan,

0:08:20 > 0:08:22were attacked as they walked along a quiet country lane

0:08:22 > 0:08:24near the village of Chillenden, south east of Canterbury.

0:08:24 > 0:08:27Although there was no forensic evidence linking him to the crime,

0:08:27 > 0:08:29Michael Stone was convicted, largely on the strength

0:08:29 > 0:08:31of a disputed confession to another prisoner.

0:08:31 > 0:08:33Our correspondent Wyre Davies has this report.

0:08:34 > 0:08:36It was a notorious murder.

0:08:36 > 0:08:39A brutal, unprovoked attack in the Kent countryside,

0:08:39 > 0:08:44on a family walking home from a school swimming gala.

0:08:44 > 0:08:4745-year-old Lin Russell and her six-year-old

0:08:47 > 0:08:50daughter, Megan, were killed in the frenzied hammer attack.

0:08:50 > 0:08:56But nine-year-old Josie survived, despite suffering terrible injuries.

0:08:56 > 0:08:58Michael Stone, a known criminal and drug addict,

0:08:58 > 0:09:01was arrested a year later in 1997 and found guilty of

0:09:01 > 0:09:05the Russell murders.

0:09:05 > 0:09:07He's serving a life sentence, but has always

0:09:07 > 0:09:08protested his innocence.

0:09:08 > 0:09:12There's no forensic evidence against Stone and he was convicted

0:09:12 > 0:09:16on a disputed confession to a fellow prisoner and Stone's legal team say

0:09:16 > 0:09:23they now have compelling, new evidence linking this man,

0:09:23 > 0:09:26Levi Bellfield, to the Russell murders.

0:09:26 > 0:09:28The killer of schoolgirl Millie Dowler, Amelie Delagrange

0:09:28 > 0:09:33and Marsha McDonnell is serving two full life terms and many say

0:09:33 > 0:09:37Bellfield has committed dozens of similar serious crimes.

0:09:37 > 0:09:40The similarities you've got are, a woman, a blitz attack

0:09:40 > 0:09:43with something heavy like a hammer.

0:09:43 > 0:09:46Just those features make it an extremely rare crime.

0:09:46 > 0:09:51I think in the absence of other facts, he would be a good suspect.

0:09:51 > 0:09:53Two decades after the appalling Russell murders, lawyers for the man

0:09:53 > 0:09:56convicted of the killings will today release new evidence that the BBC

0:09:56 > 0:09:59has seen and which they say means his case must now go

0:09:59 > 0:10:05to the Court of Appeal.

0:10:08 > 0:10:11The government is considering breaking up two of the country's

0:10:11 > 0:10:14biggest train operators as part of a new rail strategy.

0:10:14 > 0:10:17The franchises are Great Western and GTR, which combines Southern,

0:10:17 > 0:10:18Thameslink and Great Northern.

0:10:18 > 0:10:20Ministers are also exploring the possibility that some

0:10:20 > 0:10:22of the lines closed during the 1960s could be re-opened.

0:10:22 > 0:10:25They say new rail lines can unlock jobs, encourage house building

0:10:25 > 0:10:34and ease overcrowding on the existing network.

0:10:34 > 0:10:37Apple says it is working to fix a serious bug in its most recent

0:10:37 > 0:10:38Mac operating system.

0:10:38 > 0:10:41The flaw in the High Sierra software makes it possible to access

0:10:41 > 0:10:44a Mac computer or laptop without a password and gain

0:10:44 > 0:10:52powerful administrator rights.

0:10:52 > 0:10:54A restored white Fiat, crowd-funded by residents

0:10:54 > 0:10:56in a town in Poland, has finally arrived in the US,

0:10:56 > 0:10:59destined for the actor Tom Hanks, as a birthday present.

0:10:59 > 0:11:01One of his fans, Monica Jaskolska, who is from the town

0:11:01 > 0:11:04where the classic car was made in the 1970s, noticed the star's

0:11:04 > 0:11:08enthusiasm for the model and decided to raise money to send him one.

0:11:08 > 0:11:11The car was shown off at a party for the star's birthday in July,

0:11:11 > 0:11:20with money left over going to the local hospital.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23I hope he appreciates it. I'm sure he will.

0:11:23 > 0:11:27That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am.

0:11:27 > 0:11:30Pete Wood says, "I voted leave, but if it costs more to leave than

0:11:30 > 0:11:36remain, I am prepared to admit I was wrong." LJ says, "It is a joke they

0:11:36 > 0:11:40are demand ago ludicrous sum of money. I'm not convinced that

0:11:40 > 0:11:47walking away would be so bad now and we can use the money to rebuild."

0:11:47 > 0:11:52Someone has replied to her who says, "How do you know this isn't a

0:11:52 > 0:11:55ludicrous amount of money?" A good question.

0:11:55 > 0:11:57Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

0:11:57 > 0:12:00use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

0:12:00 > 0:12:01at the standard network rate.

0:12:01 > 0:12:06Hugh is here. Ben Stokes has landed down under. What chance of him

0:12:06 > 0:12:10getting involved in the Ashes?It is a slim chance. We will see how

0:12:10 > 0:12:14things go with Ben Stokes over the coming weeks. The first Ashes Test

0:12:14 > 0:12:18didn't go well, a ten wicket defeat in Brisbane. You imagine England

0:12:18 > 0:12:23will need all the help they can, but will Ben Stokes be coming to their

0:12:23 > 0:12:29rescue. He has got closer to his team-mates in Australia. He is under

0:12:29 > 0:12:32investigation following that incident outside a Bristol night

0:12:32 > 0:12:37clubleg. The ECB allowed him to play in New Zealand this weekend. He was

0:12:37 > 0:12:41flown out and greeted by his parents as he arrived in Christchurch

0:12:41 > 0:12:46overnight and it sparked plenty of back page stories that Stokes could

0:12:46 > 0:12:51be nearing an England return. He was missed in the defeat at the Gabba.

0:12:51 > 0:12:54Police haven't indicated when the investigations could conclude.

0:12:54 > 0:12:58Stokes hasn't been charged with any offence. Plenty of the fans on

0:12:58 > 0:13:02social media are begging the ECB to bring him back, but Andrew Strauss

0:13:02 > 0:13:06says they have no idea when there will be an outcome. Their procedure

0:13:06 > 0:13:10means within 48 hours of a decision they could have Stokes back in their

0:13:10 > 0:13:13team and that would be very welcome with an already crucial second test

0:13:13 > 0:13:17toll come in the early hours of Saturday morning.

0:13:17 > 0:13:20Lots of midweek Premier League action. Tell us about Tottenham in

0:13:20 > 0:13:27particular?Well, Spurs have been lauded for a highly, haven't they?

0:13:27 > 0:13:35The likes of Dele Alli and Harry cane. They had the

0:13:35 > 0:13:37FANFARE TAssic win in the Champions League

0:13:37 > 0:13:43and they topped the group stage, but they may have hit a stumbling block,

0:13:43 > 0:13:47the one thing his manager and team are missing is a trophy. It doesn't

0:13:47 > 0:13:50look like it will be the Premier League because it is just four

0:13:50 > 0:13:54points from the last 15 available for them. They were beaten 2-1 last

0:13:54 > 0:13:59night at Leicester. The manager says his team must

0:13:59 > 0:14:06improve. They could be 16 points behind Manchester City if they win

0:14:06 > 0:14:10tonight. Jose Mourinho, well, he wasn't pleased with his players

0:14:10 > 0:14:15despite Manchester United's 4-2 win at Watford. Ashley Young helped put

0:14:15 > 0:14:21them 3-0 up before two late Watford goals made for a late finish. Jose

0:14:21 > 0:14:28Mourinho said his team should have been smoking cigars!

0:14:28 > 0:14:31Managerless West Brom missed out on their first Premier League win since

0:14:31 > 0:14:38August. They gave away a two goal lead to draw 2-2 with Newcastle.

0:14:38 > 0:14:42Johnny Evans' own goal making that harder to take.England's women

0:14:42 > 0:14:45played last night. Are they any closer to finding a replacement for

0:14:45 > 0:14:49their coach who was sacked, Mark Sampson?Well, interviews for his

0:14:49 > 0:14:54replacement will take place next Monday. Their interim head coach has

0:14:54 > 0:15:01given her case a boost. It is two wins and one lose in her three games

0:15:01 > 0:15:10in charge. Inspired by Chelsea' Fran Kirby. Mel Lawlel scored a goal.

0:15:10 > 0:15:15England turned it on after the break. They scored four goals in 12

0:15:15 > 0:15:25minutes. Substitute Kirby grabbing a penalty. England have a game in hand

0:15:25 > 0:15:31over the Group A leaders Wales. Northern Ireland beat Slovakia 3-1

0:15:31 > 0:15:34in their group. It should be a good qualifying campaign in that group

0:15:34 > 0:15:39for England and Wales.

0:15:39 > 0:15:48More from Hugh throughout the morning. It's 9:15am.

0:15:48 > 0:15:50Figures seen by this programme suggest that some

0:15:50 > 0:15:52hearing centres are twice

0:15:52 > 0:15:55as likely as others to allow asylum seekers to remain in UK.

0:15:55 > 0:15:58One immigration case worker has told us the situation is so severe that

0:15:58 > 0:16:00some lawyers have lied about the address of their client

0:16:00 > 0:16:03to get their case heard at a different location.

0:16:03 > 0:16:06The Shadow Attorney General Shami Chakrabarti says the stats

0:16:06 > 0:16:08are very upsetting and called for an investigation

0:16:08 > 0:16:09by the government.

0:16:09 > 0:16:09Catrin nye has this exclusive report.

0:16:12 > 0:16:14Catrin Nye has this exclusive report.

0:16:14 > 0:16:16They would arrive in court, and they literally do have

0:16:16 > 0:16:18supermarket plastic bags stuffed with papers.

0:16:18 > 0:16:21That is completely unacceptable in a humane democracy.

0:16:21 > 0:16:23Well, I do know of cases where people have lied

0:16:23 > 0:16:30about their address.

0:16:30 > 0:16:34It's not a measure that ought to be the norm in the way that we operate,

0:16:34 > 0:16:36in the way that we run our judicial system.

0:16:36 > 0:16:38The Government has a responsibility to investigate.

0:16:48 > 0:16:52What do you do with your days while you're waiting?

0:16:52 > 0:16:55I go out to the seaside, walk.

0:16:55 > 0:17:00I like to be alone most of the time.

0:17:00 > 0:17:04Mohammed is 21, and has been in the UK for four years.

0:17:04 > 0:17:06He lives in Portsmouth, and is seeking asylum

0:17:06 > 0:17:11here because he says he was forced to flee his home in Homs in Syria.

0:17:11 > 0:17:17His initial asylum claim failed, and so did his appeal.

0:17:20 > 0:17:26I didn't feel like somebody support me, you know?

0:17:26 > 0:17:28For example, the solicitor, she doesn't do her proper

0:17:28 > 0:17:33work for this case.

0:17:33 > 0:17:40The court was as well unfair with me.

0:17:40 > 0:17:43Mohammed says he has not had a lawyer fully engage in his case

0:17:43 > 0:17:47at any stage in the asylum process so far.

0:17:47 > 0:17:50At his appeal hearing, he met his appeal representative just half

0:17:50 > 0:17:54an hour before the hearing.

0:17:54 > 0:18:01She said I didn't have time to read it before,

0:18:01 > 0:18:05because I didn't get there.

0:18:05 > 0:18:08We went, and after I get there, we were after just called.

0:18:08 > 0:18:12When I came here, there was one man from the Home Office, he said to me,

0:18:12 > 0:18:13you've come to the right place.

0:18:13 > 0:18:18And now you get all your human rights and everything.

0:18:18 > 0:18:23And to now I didn't feel like I get any one of my rights of life.

0:18:24 > 0:18:27Mohammed now has a new legal rep, Laura Smith, and is putting

0:18:27 > 0:18:31in a fresh claim for asylum.

0:18:31 > 0:18:35And looking at the evidence, why do you think he's failed in the past?

0:18:35 > 0:18:39Probably a whole group of reasons.

0:18:39 > 0:18:42Luck and getting a bad judge and not having someone who fought the case

0:18:42 > 0:18:48sufficiently for him.

0:18:48 > 0:18:51There were mistakes which the Home Office made,

0:18:51 > 0:18:53where they said that he'd answered questions wrongly about Syria,

0:18:53 > 0:18:56where he'd answered them correctly.

0:18:56 > 0:18:59That was never picked up by his lawyers, and that was never

0:18:59 > 0:19:03picked up by the judge, despite it being just a simple issue

0:19:03 > 0:19:08that could have been clarified very quickly.

0:19:12 > 0:19:17We've been investigating the results of asylum appeals across the UK,

0:19:17 > 0:19:19and through Freedom of Information requests to the Ministry of Justice,

0:19:19 > 0:19:23have found big variations in the number of successful appeals

0:19:23 > 0:19:27depending on which hearing centre they're at.

0:19:27 > 0:19:29Just a quick scan down this list shows you huge differences

0:19:29 > 0:19:33in results over four years.

0:19:33 > 0:19:38Taking two centres that handle lots of cases, both in London,

0:19:38 > 0:19:41at Harmondsworth 24% of appeals were successful.

0:19:41 > 0:19:48Taylor House, it was 47%.

0:19:49 > 0:19:52And the variations exist across the whole UK.

0:19:52 > 0:19:54Newport, 44% successful.

0:19:54 > 0:19:58Yarl's Wood in Bedfordshire, 21%.

0:19:58 > 0:19:59Bradford, 41.

0:19:59 > 0:20:02Glasgow, 28.

0:20:02 > 0:20:05We've removed the now unlawful fast-track appeals from this

0:20:05 > 0:20:11dataset, so you are now comparing a like-for-like

0:20:11 > 0:20:12process across the UK.

0:20:12 > 0:20:15For this investigation,

0:20:15 > 0:20:18we've spoken to more than 20 people that work in asylum to help us

0:20:18 > 0:20:19interpret the data.

0:20:19 > 0:20:22Lawyers, academics, judges and charities.

0:20:22 > 0:20:27We can't give one single reason for this massive variation,

0:20:27 > 0:20:31but access to good legal representation and a differing

0:20:31 > 0:20:34culture at different hearing centres are the two things that come up

0:20:34 > 0:20:36again and again.

0:20:36 > 0:20:42We also know from one further Freedom of Information request

0:20:42 > 0:20:46that the centres with the lowest numbers of appeals allowed also have

0:20:46 > 0:20:52high numbers of people with no legal representation at all.

0:20:54 > 0:20:57Katrina Jarvis is a former asylum tribunal judge.

0:20:57 > 0:21:01She says she's seen many people turn up their hearing with nothing more

0:21:01 > 0:21:05than a pile of documents.

0:21:05 > 0:21:07They would arrive in court, and they literally do have

0:21:07 > 0:21:12supermarket plastic bags stuffed with papers.

0:21:12 > 0:21:16And they come and sit in court and put them on the desk in front

0:21:16 > 0:21:20of them and look at you.

0:21:20 > 0:21:25And then to try to piece together what kind of a case person

0:21:25 > 0:21:31might have and what it is that they want to do.

0:21:31 > 0:21:35Do they want me to try and hear their case now?

0:21:35 > 0:21:38Do they want to go away and get a lawyer?

0:21:38 > 0:21:41Have they got a lawyer who's not there?

0:21:41 > 0:21:45Have you helped people as a judge in a way that others may not?

0:21:45 > 0:21:48I've on many occasions helped, I hope, people are pointed them

0:21:48 > 0:21:51in the right direction, either in the course of a hearing

0:21:51 > 0:21:54that then continued, or through perhaps adjourning

0:21:54 > 0:21:59and finding a lawyer.

0:21:59 > 0:22:02Whereas another judge might just, say, not allow their appeal?

0:22:02 > 0:22:05They might, or they might decide not to adjourn and proceed

0:22:05 > 0:22:07with the hearing even though there wasn't a lawyer there.

0:22:07 > 0:22:11There are different approaches.

0:22:12 > 0:22:15Mohammed's legal representative, Laura, believes that there

0:22:15 > 0:22:18are significant differences in the attitudes of judges depending

0:22:18 > 0:22:21on where a case is heard.

0:22:21 > 0:22:24So this is an example of a case that was originally

0:22:24 > 0:22:25heard at Harmondsworth, where we received

0:22:25 > 0:22:28a very bad decision.

0:22:28 > 0:22:31We returned to Taylor House with almost exactly the same evidence,

0:22:31 > 0:22:35and the appeal was allowed.

0:22:35 > 0:22:42And you think that was about the judge at a different centre?

0:22:42 > 0:22:44I would say those two decisions are quite

0:22:44 > 0:22:48representative of the contrast between the two hearing centres.

0:22:48 > 0:22:50So you've seen our statistics which show this massive

0:22:50 > 0:22:51variation in results.

0:22:51 > 0:22:53Do they surprise you?

0:22:53 > 0:22:57I'm sadly not surprised at all.

0:22:57 > 0:23:00It's the kind of arbitrary decision-making which I see

0:23:00 > 0:23:04across the systems all the time, that two meritorious cases can have

0:23:04 > 0:23:07completely different results based on different judges

0:23:07 > 0:23:13and different hearing centres.

0:23:13 > 0:23:16And I think most lawyers, all lawyers in our field would tell

0:23:16 > 0:23:18you that they would much rather have their hearing at

0:23:18 > 0:23:24Taylor House than at Harmondsworth or Hatton Cross.

0:23:24 > 0:23:26And do you try and make sure your hearings are there?

0:23:26 > 0:23:30Um, I have done.

0:23:30 > 0:23:34If someone is able to move so they can live near Taylor house

0:23:34 > 0:23:37and their hearing will be heard there, I would tell them that

0:23:37 > 0:23:39that was definitely worth it for them, because unfortunately,

0:23:39 > 0:23:42I think the system is unfair, and you have to try and achieve

0:23:42 > 0:23:49fairness of the client if you can.

0:23:49 > 0:23:55How far do you see lawyers go to get their clients into places

0:23:55 > 0:23:58where the results are better, they are more likely to get asylum?

0:23:58 > 0:24:03Well, I do know of cases where people have lied about their address

0:24:03 > 0:24:10so that they would be in the Taylor House

0:24:10 > 0:24:11district and have the hearings heard there.

0:24:11 > 0:24:13Is that an acceptable thing to do?

0:24:13 > 0:24:14No, that's not acceptable.

0:24:14 > 0:24:16But if someone can move to live in the area,

0:24:16 > 0:24:20I think that would be acceptable.

0:24:22 > 0:24:24We've been told that lawyers are lying in order

0:24:24 > 0:24:26to get their clients seen at hearing centres with more

0:24:26 > 0:24:27favourable results.

0:24:27 > 0:24:31Make up an address.

0:24:31 > 0:24:35Well, that's very shocking, and I'm saddened to hear that, if that's so.

0:24:35 > 0:24:43And something should be done about it.

0:24:43 > 0:24:45Which elements do you think is shocking, then, the lying

0:24:45 > 0:24:47or the fact that they feel they to do that?

0:24:47 > 0:24:48Well, both are shocking.

0:24:48 > 0:24:52Both are shocking.

0:24:52 > 0:24:58It's not a measure that ought to be a norm in the way

0:24:58 > 0:25:01that we operate and the way that we run our judicial system.

0:25:01 > 0:25:02It's wholly wrong.

0:25:02 > 0:25:06It shouldn't be a lottery.

0:25:06 > 0:25:09As part of our investigation, we also looked at whether weaker

0:25:09 > 0:25:16asylum cases or people from specific countries are said to particular

0:25:16 > 0:25:19asylum cases or people from specific countries are sent to particular

0:25:19 > 0:25:20geographical areas.

0:25:20 > 0:25:22But despite the Home Office failing to tell us exactly how

0:25:22 > 0:25:24it disperses people, it doesn't seem people are allocated

0:25:24 > 0:25:26to an area in this manner.

0:25:26 > 0:25:28Some of the lowest results do appear at hearing centres

0:25:28 > 0:25:31near immigration detention centres, where we know it can be

0:25:31 > 0:25:35very difficult to get legal representation.

0:25:37 > 0:25:43I think these statistics are very upsetting.

0:25:43 > 0:25:45This suggestion that there are advice deserts and legal aid

0:25:45 > 0:25:48deserts for people in different parts of the country means people

0:25:48 > 0:25:51are going into asylum appeals unrepresented.

0:25:51 > 0:25:57That is completely unacceptable in a humane democracy.

0:25:57 > 0:26:00Do you think it could be that the cases where there are no

0:26:00 > 0:26:02legal representation are just simply weaker?

0:26:02 > 0:26:05I don't think you can put down these levels

0:26:05 > 0:26:11of disparity to coincidence, or to weak cases.

0:26:11 > 0:26:14There is no reason why cases would be weaker in one part

0:26:14 > 0:26:15of the country compared to another.

0:26:15 > 0:26:19What do you think needs to be done about the statistics?

0:26:19 > 0:26:21Firstly, I think that yours has been an excellent

0:26:21 > 0:26:22journalistic investigation, but the Government

0:26:22 > 0:26:27has a responsibility to investigate further.

0:26:27 > 0:26:29Why so many successful appeals across the country,

0:26:29 > 0:26:34and why such disparity in different parts of the country?

0:26:34 > 0:26:36It is the responsibility of Government, not just

0:26:36 > 0:26:39the Home Office but particularly the Justice Department in this

0:26:39 > 0:26:42instance, to investigate.

0:26:42 > 0:26:45No-one should ever go into an asylum appeal unrepresented.

0:26:45 > 0:26:48You wouldn't dream of sending someone into the Crown Court

0:26:48 > 0:26:50in a criminal case unrepresented, quite possibly to

0:26:50 > 0:26:52lose their liberty.

0:26:52 > 0:26:55Why is it acceptable that someone faces removal from this country,

0:26:55 > 0:26:57quite possibly to persecution or death, with no

0:26:57 > 0:27:00legal representative?

0:27:00 > 0:27:04It's just not acceptable.

0:27:05 > 0:27:08In Portsmouth, Mohammed's hopeful that he will secure asylum

0:27:08 > 0:27:12in the UK, but he's already been here four years, and he says

0:27:12 > 0:27:14he doesn't let himself think about the future,

0:27:14 > 0:27:22any future, any more.

0:27:22 > 0:27:26Maybe they have to say, for example, you have to go back to your country,

0:27:26 > 0:27:28and everything gone.

0:27:28 > 0:27:32I don't feel like I've gone up, always I've gone down in my life.

0:27:39 > 0:27:41Well, the Ministry of Justice - mentioned in Catrin's report -

0:27:41 > 0:27:43haven't commented on the story.

0:27:43 > 0:27:46But the Judicial Office which supports judges in courts

0:27:46 > 0:27:48in England and Wales told us that:

0:27:48 > 0:27:49"All judges consider each case

0:27:49 > 0:27:52individually based on the relevant facts and the law.

0:27:52 > 0:27:54There may be a number of complex factors that explain why

0:27:54 > 0:27:57there is a variation of outcomes at different hearing centres

0:27:57 > 0:27:59but judges will always deal with each case fairly and based

0:27:59 > 0:28:00on the merits.

0:28:00 > 0:28:02Immigration judges are deployed across the various

0:28:02 > 0:28:08hearing centres and do not sit solely in any single one"

0:28:08 > 0:28:10A major security flaw has been discovered in Apple's

0:28:10 > 0:28:13latest operating system.

0:28:13 > 0:28:15Here to explain more is our technology correspondent

0:28:15 > 0:28:19Rory Cellan-Jones.

0:28:19 > 0:28:26What's going on?This is about the latest operating system on Apple

0:28:26 > 0:28:30computers, the Mac. Somebody has discovered the most ridiculous bug

0:28:30 > 0:28:37that you heard of it is embarrassing. You simply type in a

0:28:37 > 0:28:42word root, tap a couple of times and you are in as another user and you

0:28:42 > 0:28:47can do all sorts of things with the computer. It's inherent on you

0:28:47 > 0:28:51having your hands on somebody's computer. Somebody who may have left

0:28:51 > 0:28:57it alone for a while. But it's a pretty serious bug. Interestingly,

0:28:57 > 0:29:05it was exposed by the Turkish security research it most recently.

0:29:05 > 0:29:08Usually security research as you go looking for this Dunn these books

0:29:08 > 0:29:11informed the company before informing the world. He didn't do

0:29:11 > 0:29:16that. He popped up a couple of weeks ago on a support forum. Somebody

0:29:16 > 0:29:19actually noticed this and put it out there as a way of getting around

0:29:19 > 0:29:25some other issue people were having. Quite innocently and I love it. This

0:29:25 > 0:29:29person on November 13 explained how you can do this to sort out some

0:29:29 > 0:29:34other issues. A few days later on the same forum, somebody else says,

0:29:34 > 0:29:42oh, my God, that should not work but it does. This is really, really bad.

0:29:42 > 0:29:47How long for Apple to sort it?They are rushing out an update pretty

0:29:47 > 0:29:52soon. Probably within a few hours. But it's a pretty embarrassing bug

0:29:52 > 0:29:55not to have found. Not to have noticed when they updated the

0:29:55 > 0:29:57system.Thanks very much.

0:29:57 > 0:29:58Still to come:

0:29:58 > 0:30:00Progress in the fight against malaria appears to have

0:30:00 > 0:30:02stalled with incidents of the disease rising

0:30:02 > 0:30:03in some areas.

0:30:03 > 0:30:04We'll be looking into the reason why.

0:30:04 > 0:30:09Finally some movement in Brexit negotiations as UK

0:30:09 > 0:30:16increase their "divorce settlement" offer to around £44 billion.

0:30:16 > 0:30:20They increase in from anywhere from 40 to 55 billion.

0:30:20 > 0:30:22We'll be finding out out what Brexiteers

0:30:22 > 0:30:24think of the new offer.

0:30:24 > 0:30:28Whether you voted to leave or remain, let us no.

0:30:29 > 0:30:30Time for the latest news, here's Annita.

0:30:30 > 0:30:34The BBC News headlines this morning.

0:30:34 > 0:30:37The BBC understands that the Government has offered

0:30:37 > 0:30:40the European Union between £40 and £49 billion in the financial

0:30:40 > 0:30:50settlement as Britain withdraws from the EU.

0:30:56 > 0:30:59Downing Street has rejected no figure was agreed.

0:30:59 > 0:31:00The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, told

0:31:00 > 0:31:02the BBC that the UK would "meet our obligations".

0:31:02 > 0:31:05North Korea has carried out another ballistic missile test -

0:31:05 > 0:31:06its first for two months.

0:31:06 > 0:31:08Pyongyang says the missile which landed in Japanese waters

0:31:08 > 0:31:11is a new type of weapon and its most powerful yet.

0:31:11 > 0:31:13Experts believe that North Korea has demonstrated for the first time

0:31:13 > 0:31:16that it could now hit most of the American mainland.

0:31:16 > 0:31:18President Donald Trump was briefed while the missile

0:31:18 > 0:31:19was still in the air.

0:31:19 > 0:31:22A 15-year-old boy has been charged with causing the deaths by dangerous

0:31:22 > 0:31:25driving of three children and two men who died in a collision

0:31:25 > 0:31:26in Leeds on Saturday.

0:31:26 > 0:31:28The teenager is due to appear at Leeds Magistrates'

0:31:28 > 0:31:29Court this morning.

0:31:29 > 0:31:32All five victims were in the car when it crashed - the youngest

0:31:32 > 0:31:34were brothers, aged 12 and 14.

0:31:34 > 0:31:36Police have appealed for information.

0:31:37 > 0:31:41Lawyers for Michael Stone, the man found guilty of murdering

0:31:41 > 0:31:46a mother and daughter in Kent in 1996, say they'll release

0:31:46 > 0:31:51significant new evidence today that casts doubt on his conviction.

0:31:51 > 0:31:53Lin Russell and her six-year-old daughter, Megan, were attacked

0:31:53 > 0:31:56as they walked along a quiet country lane near the village of Chillenden,

0:31:56 > 0:31:59south east of Canterbury.

0:31:59 > 0:32:01Children with autism in England are being let down

0:32:01 > 0:32:03by the education system, according to a report

0:32:03 > 0:32:10by the All Party Parliamentary group for Autism, seen by the BBC.

0:32:10 > 0:32:13Nearly three in four parents said they waited more than six months

0:32:13 > 0:32:16for the support their child is entitled to, while half said

0:32:16 > 0:32:18they waited more than a year.

0:32:18 > 0:32:21The Department for Education says "all schools have a duty

0:32:21 > 0:32:22to support children with special educational needs".

0:32:22 > 0:32:25It says it's given councils £223 million in extra funding

0:32:25 > 0:32:28to introduce reforms.

0:32:28 > 0:32:31Apple says it's working to fix a serious bug in its most recent

0:32:31 > 0:32:32Mac operating system.

0:32:32 > 0:32:35The flaw in the High Sierra software makes it possible to access

0:32:35 > 0:32:38a Mac computer or laptop without a password, and gain

0:32:38 > 0:32:43powerful administrator rights.

0:32:43 > 0:32:50That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

0:32:50 > 0:32:55Some comments from you on the Brexit divorce bill. The latest figures

0:32:55 > 0:33:00reported today anywhere between 40 and 55 billion euros. Gary says, "I

0:33:00 > 0:33:04am all for Brexit, but being held to ransom is a no, no." Alistair says,

0:33:04 > 0:33:08"The EU has been ripping off the UK for years. No surprise they are

0:33:08 > 0:33:12doing it now." Max says, "I voted Leave and I was lied to." We will

0:33:12 > 0:33:16talk to some of you on the programme later. If you voted in the EU

0:33:16 > 0:33:20referendum, whatever you voted, we would like your views on the latest

0:33:20 > 0:33:23figures that Britain looks like it will have to pay to leave the EU and

0:33:23 > 0:33:26in order for the negotiations to move to talk about a trade deal.

0:33:26 > 0:33:34Hugh is back. He has got the sport.

0:33:34 > 0:33:39Ben Stokes has flown into Christchurch with the prospect of

0:33:39 > 0:33:45playing club cricket in New Zealand. He had his England kitbag in toe as

0:33:45 > 0:33:51well. In football, Manchester United boss Jose Mourinho was unhappy with

0:33:51 > 0:33:58his team's wastefulness saying they should have been five or six up.

0:33:58 > 0:34:03They were 3-0 at half-time. It is four points from their last five

0:34:03 > 0:34:08games for Tottenham. They were beaten by Leicester City. The Spurs

0:34:08 > 0:34:13boss said he's disappointed and frustrated. And England's women made

0:34:13 > 0:34:18it three wins from three in World Cup qualifying with a 5-0 thrashing

0:34:18 > 0:34:20of Kazakhstan, there were wins for Wales and Northern Ireland. That's

0:34:20 > 0:34:24all the sport for now. I will have more after 10am.

0:34:24 > 0:34:27Thank you very much, Hugh.

0:34:28 > 0:34:35Coercive control is a type of domestic abuse that can

0:34:35 > 0:34:37have a devastating psychological affect on those impacted.

0:34:37 > 0:34:40It's a non-violent form of control which is used to frighten

0:34:40 > 0:34:42and dominate a partner - whether male or female.

0:34:42 > 0:34:44It was made illegal at the end of 2015

0:34:44 > 0:34:47and is punishable by up to five years in prison.

0:34:47 > 0:34:49Nearly two years after the law was introduced, police figures show

0:34:49 > 0:34:51more people are being arrested on suspicion of coercive

0:34:51 > 0:34:54and controlling behaviour, but only one in six are charged

0:34:54 > 0:34:58with the offence. Why?

0:34:58 > 0:35:01We can speak now to Lisa-Marie Flavin who says experienced coercive

0:35:01 > 0:35:04control at the hands of her ex-partner.

0:35:04 > 0:35:06Emma Pearmaine is a family lawyer and campaigner

0:35:06 > 0:35:09for survivors of domestic abuse.

0:35:09 > 0:35:12David Tucker, head of the crime and criminal justice faculty

0:35:12 > 0:35:15at the College of Policing.

0:35:15 > 0:35:20Welcome all of you. Thank you very much for coming on the programme.

0:35:20 > 0:35:24Lisa-Marie, thank you for talking to us. I wonder if you can explain to

0:35:24 > 0:35:27our audience what it feels like to be in a relationship with someone

0:35:27 > 0:35:32who controls you?Coercive controlling behaviour is the

0:35:32 > 0:35:36foundation for every type of abuse, let's be real about this, to be

0:35:36 > 0:35:41controlled and abused it leads on to other types of abuse. It makes you

0:35:41 > 0:35:45feel, I mean, you're at the power of somebody else. It is a slow trickle

0:35:45 > 0:35:48of a process to be controlled and coerced by someone. It happens very

0:35:48 > 0:35:53slowly. But then the magnitude of what it can do to them, the impact

0:35:53 > 0:36:02on your mental health is extreme. How did it begin with your ex then?

0:36:02 > 0:36:06It began very slowly. It was difficult for me to see friends. It

0:36:06 > 0:36:10would come in an argument. I would make plans and then he would be

0:36:10 > 0:36:14like, "Don't go, stay with me." That turned into then if you loved me,

0:36:14 > 0:36:19you wouldn't go. You don't need friends you've got me. And then it

0:36:19 > 0:36:22turned into, he would destroy my mobile phones, pull them out of the

0:36:22 > 0:36:27wall, I was in the bath one time and he threw my phone in the bath. I

0:36:27 > 0:36:29wouldn't have contact with the outside world. Facebook became

0:36:29 > 0:36:33impossible. He would question everyone that I knew on there. You

0:36:33 > 0:36:38know, and then it went on to things like, you know, I would leave and I

0:36:38 > 0:36:44would go to stay with family. He slashed the roof of my car, I now

0:36:44 > 0:36:48know and he made out somebody did it in my family's home so I wasn't safe

0:36:48 > 0:36:54to be with my family. I had to go back home to him, you know?Yes.

0:36:54 > 0:36:59Some people will think that it can't, however distressing that, and

0:36:59 > 0:37:04it is, because you become powerless in the end, will still think can

0:37:04 > 0:37:08can't be as traumatic as being physically beaten up. What would you

0:37:08 > 0:37:12say to them?It is. At the time I didn't realise what was happening to

0:37:12 > 0:37:19me. That sounds insane. I don't see myself as unintelligent. You don't

0:37:19 > 0:37:22realise you are being abused. You know the real them. They have got a

0:37:22 > 0:37:28good heart. You know, they have just got a few issues and anger. You

0:37:28 > 0:37:33know, I realised I was depressed long before I realised I was being

0:37:33 > 0:37:37abused. It has a detrimental impact on your mental health.How did that

0:37:37 > 0:37:43manifest itself in you?You know, I have always been a bubbly, social

0:37:43 > 0:37:46person, happy go lucky. I was trying to hide the abuse, you know, you

0:37:46 > 0:37:51would say things, "Don't tell people our business." It is between me and

0:37:51 > 0:37:55you. He would gas light, we would, something would happen the night

0:37:55 > 0:37:58before and the next day, "That was nothing, you were being too

0:37:58 > 0:38:03sensitive." I went from this bubbly character to a shell, an absolute

0:38:03 > 0:38:06shell of my former self. I didn't want to go out. It wasn't worth the

0:38:06 > 0:38:12hassle. I was so afraid. I was caught in the cycle of abuse being

0:38:12 > 0:38:14bombarded with love and bombarded with hate and abuse. I was

0:38:14 > 0:38:18frightened. You're trapped in this world just you and this person and

0:38:18 > 0:38:24it is amazing how it takes a grip on you.You have described it so, so

0:38:24 > 0:38:36eloquently. I know your ex-partner was charged with coercive behaviour.

0:38:36 > 0:38:41How important to you was it that the police were able to understand and

0:38:41 > 0:38:44recognise the controlling behaviour that you say had gone on?I mean

0:38:44 > 0:38:48because this is a relatively new legislation. It came out in December

0:38:48 > 0:38:532015. The local police that dealt with my case unfortunately hadn't

0:38:53 > 0:38:58been trained in coercive control. I know it is looking to change which

0:38:58 > 0:39:02is necessary. I was lucky. I was made aware of the law by some

0:39:02 > 0:39:05friends of mine who are in a different police force and it was

0:39:05 > 0:39:09just, you know, when I read about coercive control, everything just

0:39:09 > 0:39:14rang true.Yes.Everything he was doing to me, it was just wow, this

0:39:14 > 0:39:18is happening to me. There is a name for what's happening to me.

0:39:18 > 0:39:23I'm going to bring in Emma. You've done a Freedom of Information

0:39:23 > 0:39:27Request to every police force in England to compile the figures on

0:39:27 > 0:39:30arrests and charges for coercive control in the first 18 months of

0:39:30 > 0:39:34this new legislation and there is a lot of variation. In some areas,

0:39:34 > 0:39:40more than a third of arrests result in charges. In others, it's much,

0:39:40 > 0:39:42much smaller percentage. Why do you think there is that variation?I

0:39:42 > 0:39:48think there are a number of issues actually. I am involved with the

0:39:48 > 0:39:51domestic violence charity and we have been invited to a number of

0:39:51 > 0:39:54police forces to deliver training on coercive control. And that's been

0:39:54 > 0:39:59very useful for the police officers involved. I am assured by all police

0:39:59 > 0:40:02forces that they are taking training for their front line officers very

0:40:02 > 0:40:07seriously and they are delivering training and I think we can see from

0:40:07 > 0:40:11the difference in the number of arrests made in the first-half of

0:40:11 > 0:40:162016, to the number of arrests made in the first-half of 2017 that

0:40:16 > 0:40:19police officers are now very much more aware of the issues of coercive

0:40:19 > 0:40:24control and much more able to recognise it.Yet only one in six of

0:40:24 > 0:40:28those arrests leads to a charge? Still only one in six.Why might be

0:40:28 > 0:40:34the case?Well, there are very challenging evidential issues that

0:40:34 > 0:40:38the police and the Crown Prosecution Service have to deal with and we

0:40:38 > 0:40:44have to accept that. There has to be an element of repeated behaviour.

0:40:44 > 0:40:48There has to be evidenced. It has to be seen that the victim has

0:40:48 > 0:40:51experienced fear and adapted their behaviour as a result. And we also

0:40:51 > 0:40:58have to be able to see that the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator

0:40:58 > 0:41:00knew effectively that their behaviours would result in the

0:41:00 > 0:41:03victim feeling fear and actually that's a very difficult thing to

0:41:03 > 0:41:08prove.Very difficult. I mean, you know, Lisa-Marie talked about her

0:41:08 > 0:41:11mobile phone being smashed or chucked into the bath or the top of

0:41:11 > 0:41:16her car being slashed, you know, you can see the physical outcome of that

0:41:16 > 0:41:20happening, but don't go on Facebook, don't go out, don't talk to them,

0:41:20 > 0:41:25that's much harder to prove, isn't it, David?Yes, it is and policing,

0:41:25 > 0:41:32of course, was set-up and over decades has dealt with the man if

0:41:32 > 0:41:35hes tations of issues so the damage to car or the damage to mobile

0:41:35 > 0:41:37phones. We are asking police officers to understand more about

0:41:37 > 0:41:41the incident that they are dealing with and that's quite a change in

0:41:41 > 0:41:46culture particularly for front line officers so we are hearing that

0:41:46 > 0:41:50training is taking place and there is training that the College of

0:41:50 > 0:41:55Policing is doing.Made available for so they don't have to do it?We

0:41:55 > 0:41:59set the standards around training and we make training available and

0:41:59 > 0:42:03forces can either use our products or use their own. Very often it is

0:42:03 > 0:42:06an appropriate thing for the forces to use their own training products

0:42:06 > 0:42:12because they might have their own structures in police locally, we

0:42:12 > 0:42:22work with the College of Policing to make sure that the messages around

0:42:22 > 0:42:26coercive controlling behaviour gets out.Do you link the number of

0:42:26 > 0:42:32arrests that leads to a charge in coercive control with training? Can

0:42:32 > 0:42:36we make that link?It is important to see that this is not just a

0:42:36 > 0:42:40policing issue. Theres a whole system that works together. So we

0:42:40 > 0:42:43work very closely with the national policing lead, but we work with the

0:42:43 > 0:42:46Inspectorate of Constabulary and the Home Office and the Ministry of

0:42:46 > 0:42:48Justice and so on and with the Crown Prosecution Service. And what we

0:42:48 > 0:42:53have to do is that the policing job is to collect the evidence. We then

0:42:53 > 0:42:56present that to the CPS and the Crown Prosecution Service will make

0:42:56 > 0:42:59a decision about whether a case can go forward and whether the evidence

0:42:59 > 0:43:04is there and there are changes...I know. I understand that. Most people

0:43:04 > 0:43:06watching understand you collect the evidence and you put it forward to

0:43:06 > 0:43:10the CPS and they decide if a charge goes forward or is brought. My

0:43:10 > 0:43:15question is maybe Emma, you can help me here. Are you seeing in the data

0:43:15 > 0:43:19that you've looked at, there are more arrests leading to charges in

0:43:19 > 0:43:28areas where the police have taken up the training?Yes, we are. We

0:43:28 > 0:43:32recognise it in terms of the clients that we represent, day in and day

0:43:32 > 0:43:37out across the country as family lawyers and I see it in my role

0:43:37 > 0:43:41working with the corporate alliance against domestic violence and the

0:43:41 > 0:43:46courses where we are invited to give training, we can see the statistics

0:43:46 > 0:43:50are positive and they are increasing in terms of the number of arrests

0:43:50 > 0:43:54and actually there is a very small increase in terms of the number of

0:43:54 > 0:43:59charges.The College of Policing has a product that we deliver with a

0:43:59 > 0:44:03number of charities and we have evaluated that and looked at the

0:44:03 > 0:44:06impact and we know that that training has an impact on the

0:44:06 > 0:44:10attitudes and the learning of the individuals. What we haven't, what

0:44:10 > 0:44:15we can't prove is that you can then see a change in the number of

0:44:15 > 0:44:20arrests and the number of charges because that would require a much

0:44:20 > 0:44:24longer study.Fair enough. They are really interesting the figures. Data

0:44:24 > 0:44:27from 35 police forces in England show that in the first 18 months of

0:44:27 > 0:44:32the new law, there were 4,000 arrests for coercive control, but

0:44:32 > 0:44:38only 17% were charged with the offence. By comparison, a decision

0:44:38 > 0:44:45to charge was made for 70% of domestic abuse related cases

0:44:45 > 0:44:49referred to the CPS. It is just interesting to compare at this

0:44:49 > 0:44:56stage. Lisa machine Marie, I know you wrote a very moving impact

0:44:56 > 0:44:59statement after your case went to court. Tell our audience what you

0:44:59 > 0:45:05told the judge?You broke up then, what did you say?Tell our audience

0:45:05 > 0:45:10about the impact statement you gave to the court.

0:45:10 > 0:45:18I sort of addressed the judge, the barristers. I know there's a lot of

0:45:18 > 0:45:22good work going on down at the ground level with coercive control,

0:45:22 > 0:45:26people need to be educated, nope it's the law. But if the people at

0:45:26 > 0:45:32the top, the judges, the court, don't recognise the serious of this

0:45:32 > 0:45:38type of abuse, everything else on the ground is fruitless. We need to

0:45:38 > 0:45:44raise awareness. I also addressed the perpetrator in court. I

0:45:44 > 0:45:48addressed that the outcome did not affect what had happened between us.

0:45:48 > 0:45:52We knew the truth. I have a catalogue of evidence, eyewitness

0:45:52 > 0:45:57testimonies, you know, voice recordings. It really needs to be

0:45:57 > 0:46:04taken more seriously. To read it out in court was empowering.That's it,

0:46:04 > 0:46:10good to hear. This tweet, well done to Lisa - Marie. So brave to talk so

0:46:10 > 0:46:17openly about coercive behaviour. Being in control becomes your new --

0:46:17 > 0:46:20being under control becomes your new normal and you don't realise what's

0:46:20 > 0:46:24going on. So consumed and it's a scary cycle of abuse. What advice

0:46:24 > 0:46:27would you give to anyone watching right now who is hearing you

0:46:27 > 0:46:34describe this this morning, Lisa-Maria and saying, hang on, I

0:46:34 > 0:46:38might be in a similar situation. Lets not forget, no human being has

0:46:38 > 0:46:41a right to control another. Not under any circumstances. Nobody

0:46:41 > 0:46:46should live in fear of somebody we love. When it's the two of you in a

0:46:46 > 0:46:50relationship or a family, it can become the norm, this sort of

0:46:50 > 0:46:54behaviour, but it's not a healthy relationship. Nobody has a right to

0:46:54 > 0:46:58control another. Seek advice. I was silenced by fear and abuse for a

0:46:58 > 0:47:05long time. When I started, it was disclosing to Mike colleagues and

0:47:05 > 0:47:09friends, when they saw the difference, it then became clear, as

0:47:09 > 0:47:12time has gone on that, wow, this is a thing that's happening to me.

0:47:12 > 0:47:19There's a name for it.What you say? Just call the police?Call the

0:47:19 > 0:47:23police. I was lucky, I was met with some really supportive offices.

0:47:23 > 0:47:27Obviously they didn't pick of the chorus of control but they picked up

0:47:27 > 0:47:31the harassment and I was lucky I had support from friends and I got to

0:47:31 > 0:47:35read up on coercive control. Yes, reported to the police. This is a

0:47:35 > 0:47:39serious thing and the law is here to protect us.Thank you very much,

0:47:39 > 0:47:51Lisa-Maria. -- Lisa-Marie experience coercive control. Thank you to Emma

0:47:51 > 0:47:54and David. Thank you very much for coming on the programme.

0:47:54 > 0:47:55Coming up:

0:47:55 > 0:47:56North Korea has tested its most powerful

0:47:56 > 0:47:59ballistic missile to date - flying higher than any previous

0:47:59 > 0:48:00missiles.

0:48:00 > 0:48:05It's believed they're capable of hitting mainland America.

0:48:05 > 0:48:08We'll talk about that after 10am.

0:48:08 > 0:48:11The fight against Malaria has been one of global health's success

0:48:11 > 0:48:15stories over the past few years, but there's concern that progress

0:48:15 > 0:48:18to tackle this devastating disease is stalling.

0:48:18 > 0:48:23Data from the World Health Organisation shows the declining

0:48:23 > 0:48:26trend in cases and deaths has stopped - and even

0:48:26 > 0:48:28reversed in some parts - over the past three years.

0:48:28 > 0:48:30Vulnerable children and pregnant women in Sub-Saharan Africa

0:48:30 > 0:48:31are the most likely victims.

0:48:31 > 0:48:36Here are some of the facts.

0:49:45 > 0:49:48Well, let's talk now to Jo Yirrell - her 21-year-old son died

0:49:48 > 0:49:53from malaria after visiting Ghana.

0:49:53 > 0:49:55Also Professor Azra Ghani - a malaria specialist

0:49:55 > 0:49:57from Imperial College London.

0:49:57 > 0:50:05And James Whiting - the chief executive Malaria No More.

0:50:05 > 0:50:09Thank you to all of you for coming on the programme. Can you explain

0:50:09 > 0:50:15what malaria is and how you go about treating it?Malaria is a disease

0:50:15 > 0:50:18caused by a parasite, transmitted by mosquitoes and is really prevalent

0:50:18 > 0:50:22in areas where the climate is well suited to mosquitoes, so mostly in

0:50:22 > 0:50:28the tropical areas. It can be quite mild disease but for some

0:50:28 > 0:50:33individuals it can be particularly and cause life-threatening...

0:50:33 > 0:50:36Particularly those who aren't immune to the disease. In an endemic areas

0:50:36 > 0:50:42it will be young children who will often die from the disease.Toe us

0:50:42 > 0:50:49how you protect from it.Firstly it is actually treatable. The major

0:50:49 > 0:50:52challenge is for those children to access care promptly so that they

0:50:52 > 0:50:59receive that treatment. We have a number of other tools to try to

0:50:59 > 0:51:03prevent cases of malaria. One of the major ones is bug nets. Those are

0:51:03 > 0:51:09treated with a chemical that will kill the mosquito if it comes into

0:51:09 > 0:51:16contact and gives direct protection. Jo, you work hard to eradicate

0:51:16 > 0:51:23malaria in Ghana where you are 21-year-old son was volunteering.

0:51:23 > 0:51:28Harry went to Ghana to work with children in school, with sport. He

0:51:28 > 0:51:31took his anti-malaria tablets with him but he didn't take them because

0:51:31 > 0:51:36he felt the children needed them more than he did. He thoroughly

0:51:36 > 0:51:39enjoyed himself, found himself, went away a boy and came back a man. We

0:51:39 > 0:51:43had him for ten days when he came home, but when he came home he

0:51:43 > 0:51:48started off with a headache and then very quickly he went downhill and we

0:51:48 > 0:51:56took him into hospital and he had malaria. He died within ten days. He

0:51:56 > 0:52:05was really strong young man. And we were told he would survive.

0:52:05 > 0:52:09Eventually his lungs gave up and he couldn't cope any more. It's a very

0:52:09 > 0:52:16unnecessary death. Had he taken his tablets, had I understood more about

0:52:16 > 0:52:20malaria, not just heard of it, I could have gone on and on at him. I

0:52:20 > 0:52:26would have got his treatment for him quicker. But it's shocking. Losing a

0:52:26 > 0:52:30child is shocking. It has the heart out of you and then when you find

0:52:30 > 0:52:33out it's a preventable disease and its probably curable if the timing

0:52:33 > 0:52:41had been right, yes, it's difficult to get over. Malaria No More UK have

0:52:41 > 0:52:44really helped me because I can talk about Harry all the time and that's

0:52:44 > 0:52:52my therapy. I'd like to get rid of this disease.It's motivating you to

0:52:52 > 0:52:56try.Yes, and it's a monument to hurry if we can do that. His

0:52:56 > 0:53:03brothers can see that his death has meant something, almost.James, from

0:53:03 > 0:53:07Malaria No More. We have this WHO report out today which suggests that

0:53:07 > 0:53:10after years of progress, the campaign to eradicate it is

0:53:10 > 0:53:14stalling.Yes, it's been one of the most successful global health

0:53:14 > 0:53:20campaigns in history. We've saved 7 million lives since 2000. Death

0:53:20 > 0:53:23rates are down by 60% so this is something that works. It's

0:53:23 > 0:53:27phenomenally good value, if you can put it that way. Treatment costs

0:53:27 > 0:53:34about £1. Nets cost £3. There's really no wait for it not to keep

0:53:34 > 0:53:41going. There are up to 50% of Africa who still do not have bed nets that

0:53:41 > 0:53:45cost £3 to protect their children for the next three years.What is

0:53:45 > 0:53:51going wrong?Why is it stalling? Funding is plateauing. It kills

0:53:51 > 0:53:54children under five and pregnant women in some of the poorest

0:53:54 > 0:53:58countries in the world and I don't think there's a voice out there that

0:53:58 > 0:54:02saying, look, we've got to do something about it. It's the quiet,

0:54:02 > 0:54:05relentless killer. In the Ebola crisis, more people died of malaria

0:54:05 > 0:54:13in those three countries than died of a bowler.Really?Nobody hears

0:54:13 > 0:54:16about it because it just keeps killing and we can stop it.You say

0:54:16 > 0:54:22funding has plateaued. Does that because Westerners think malaria has

0:54:22 > 0:54:26pretty much been eradicated?I think there's a real fear about

0:54:26 > 0:54:33complacency because you don't have that relentless drive, it's not in

0:54:33 > 0:54:39the news, etc. But actually the UK and US... The UK has been an

0:54:39 > 0:54:44absolute global leader in the campaign against malaria.The second

0:54:44 > 0:54:47largest donor in fight against malaria, according to the Department

0:54:47 > 0:54:52for International Development. Government has been fantastic over

0:54:52 > 0:54:55the last decade or so and they've really put a huge effort into this

0:54:55 > 0:55:00because they can see the value, that this is the way to save children's

0:55:00 > 0:55:04lives, save pregnant women's lives. The public respond. Whenever we see

0:55:04 > 0:55:10comic relief, we know people respond. They have the biggest

0:55:10 > 0:55:15response to it. It is not about the UK so much, but the UK has a chance

0:55:15 > 0:55:18to see Dunn do something extraordinary next year, I think.In

0:55:18 > 0:55:24what sense?All of the Commonwealth countries are coming here in April

0:55:24 > 0:55:3420 18. They represent six of the top ten countries that suffer from

0:55:34 > 0:55:38malaria. Nine out of ten people in the Commonwealth are in malarial

0:55:38 > 0:55:42countries. This is a chance for the UK and the Commonwealth to take on

0:55:42 > 0:55:46the biggest, oldest killing disease. We're going to really push this

0:55:46 > 0:55:50through to the end. We're going to end this disease and what we could

0:55:50 > 0:55:54commit to is halving deaths in cases in the Commonwealth in the next five

0:55:54 > 0:56:00years. That would be a huge thing to take on.Do those kind of targets

0:56:00 > 0:56:07motivate communities, governments? Are they useful?Absolutely. It is

0:56:07 > 0:56:10central and in those countries we work, those targets need to be

0:56:10 > 0:56:15visible and malaria is appreciated in those countries. They see it as

0:56:15 > 0:56:18their number one health problem. The difficulty for them is they are the

0:56:18 > 0:56:23poorest countries in the world and they really need to depend on

0:56:23 > 0:56:26external financing.According to the Department for International

0:56:26 > 0:56:29Development, they say the international community needs to

0:56:29 > 0:56:39start -- step up along with the UK. Absolutely. 800 children lost today.

0:56:39 > 0:56:41Parents are losing children. It doesn't need to happen. They just

0:56:41 > 0:56:46need to push forward, stop stalling. Everybody get on board. Governments

0:56:46 > 0:56:50globally. Eradicate the disease, it can be done. It's preventable,

0:56:50 > 0:56:56curable, it can be done.Thanks for coming on and telling us about

0:56:56 > 0:57:04Harry, Jo and Professor Azra and James. Thank you.

0:57:04 > 0:57:07It's the beginning of awards season, and first up are the UK's annual

0:57:07 > 0:57:09celebration of urban music - the MOBOs.

0:57:09 > 0:57:12In the next hour we'll be speaking to Yxng Bane who has been

0:57:12 > 0:57:14nominated for best newcomer.

0:57:14 > 0:57:17Let's get the latest weather update.

0:57:17 > 0:57:18It is cold.

0:57:18 > 0:57:24It is cold. You're absolutely right, Victoria. If you think it's cold

0:57:24 > 0:57:26today, it's going to be

0:57:26 > 0:57:30even colder tomorrow. Our air at the moment is coming all the way from

0:57:30 > 0:57:34the Arctic. A real biting wind expected tomorrow and for many of

0:57:34 > 0:57:38us, we'll seek some wintry showers, as well. This morning started off

0:57:38 > 0:57:43cold and frosty and with that we have some pleasant scenes. Look at

0:57:43 > 0:57:48that ice pattern in Cornwall. I guess that's on a car windscreen or

0:57:48 > 0:57:52a roof or something. For many, pretty cold today. Wintry showers

0:57:52 > 0:57:57continuing across eastern areas of England. Showers, not as many across

0:57:57 > 0:58:01northern and eastern Scotland but into the afternoon there will still

0:58:01 > 0:58:04be a few wintry flurries over the higher ground of Aberdeenshire and

0:58:04 > 0:58:08the far north-east. Temperatures are two or three degrees. For Northern

0:58:08 > 0:58:12Ireland, still a few showers scattered here, but the eastern

0:58:12 > 0:58:16areas of England, mainly rain showers down to low levels this

0:58:16 > 0:58:20afternoon. There'll be some brighter skies in between. Sadly for the

0:58:20 > 0:58:23Midlands, Wales, through much of southern and south-west England,

0:58:23 > 0:58:28some sunshine. Still showers in Pembrokeshire and towards Cornwall.

0:58:28 > 0:58:32Tonight, with clear skies for many, it'll be another Cold War. Colder

0:58:32 > 0:58:36than last night. Probably the coldest night of the autumn so far.

0:58:36 > 0:58:41Temperatures down to -6 or -7 in places. A widespread frost to start

0:58:41 > 0:58:44off on Thursday morning and where you had those showers through the

0:58:44 > 0:58:49night, there is the risk of some ice. Thursday, will have a stronger

0:58:49 > 0:58:52wind and a continuation of those wintry showers in eastern Scotland

0:58:52 > 0:58:56and the eastern side of England. Even down to low levels, through the

0:58:56 > 0:58:59morning and into the afternoon, there could be some snow here. It'll

0:58:59 > 0:59:05feel much colder. Temperatures probably feeling more like freezing

0:59:05 > 0:59:15to -12 minus three degrees. As we go through into Friday, a subtle. -- -1

0:59:15 > 0:59:19to -3. You can see the air direction changes slightly coming in for more

0:59:19 > 0:59:26of a north-westerly wind. Some cloudier skies across Scotland and

0:59:26 > 0:59:31Northern Ireland. Much of the UK, it will be dry with some sunshine. Into

0:59:31 > 0:59:37the weekend, this mild direction of air coming in from the west

0:59:37 > 0:59:42north-west will bring theirs where the front to the south. Less cold as

0:59:42 > 0:59:46we go through the weekend. You can see that from the air mass picture.

0:59:46 > 0:59:50This orange air is starting to use in a little bit. While we've lost

0:59:50 > 0:59:53that northerly wind, we got a north-westerly wind coming in. A

0:59:53 > 0:59:59polar air mass but much more cloud around both Saturday and Sunday.

0:59:59 > 1:00:03Temperatures up to about seven to 10 degrees which is probably more like

1:00:03 > 1:00:07the average for the time of year. Goodbye.

1:00:08 > 1:00:12Hello. It's 10am.

1:00:12 > 1:00:14It's Wednesday.

1:00:14 > 1:00:15I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:00:15 > 1:00:23The Brexit divorce bill is reported to be between 40 and 55 billion

1:00:23 > 1:00:28euros.

1:00:28 > 1:00:33Downing Street said there is no deal on the amount that we are prepared

1:00:33 > 1:00:38to day, but a deal on the Brexit divorce bill seems imminent.

1:00:38 > 1:00:42If you voted to leave the EU do you think this is a good deal?

1:00:42 > 1:00:44We'll get reaction to the new offer from leave voters.

1:00:44 > 1:00:47In exclusive report we reveal that asylum seekers are facing

1:00:47 > 1:00:49a "lottery" depending on where their appeal is heard

1:00:49 > 1:00:52in research seen by this programme and some are being forced

1:00:52 > 1:00:53to represent themselves in complex cases.

1:00:53 > 1:00:58Able to move so they are live near Taylor House and their hearing will

1:00:58 > 1:01:02be heard there. I will tell them that it will be worth it. The system

1:01:02 > 1:01:08is unfair and you have to achieve fairness for your client if you can.

1:01:08 > 1:01:12We'll be talking to a solicitor who has witnessed these variations

1:01:12 > 1:01:14in results at first-hand with his clients later

1:01:14 > 1:01:22in the programme.

1:01:22 > 1:01:25And awards season kicks off this evening with MOBOs and we'll talking

1:01:25 > 1:01:30to London-born rapper Young Bane nominated for best newcomer.

1:01:33 > 1:01:37Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

1:01:37 > 1:01:41Good morning.

1:01:41 > 1:01:49The BBC understands that the Government has offered

1:01:49 > 1:01:52the European Union up to 50 billion euros as a financial

1:01:52 > 1:01:53settlement for Britain's withdrawal from the EU.

1:01:53 > 1:01:55Downing Street said no final figure had been agreed

1:01:55 > 1:01:57and negotiations were continuing.

1:01:57 > 1:01:58The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, told

1:01:58 > 1:01:59the BBC that the UK would "meet our obligations".

1:01:59 > 1:02:02North Korea has claimed its latest ballistic missile test demonstrates

1:02:02 > 1:02:07it now has the capability to strike anywhere in the United States.

1:02:07 > 1:02:10Experts say the altitude it achieved strongly indicates that if it

1:02:10 > 1:02:12were fired at a different angle, it could reach Washington.

1:02:12 > 1:02:15China has urged all sides to stop actions which it said

1:02:15 > 1:02:19heightened tensions.

1:02:19 > 1:02:22A 15-year-old boy has been charged with causing the deaths by dangerous

1:02:22 > 1:02:25driving of three children and two men who died in a collision

1:02:25 > 1:02:26in Leeds on Saturday.

1:02:26 > 1:02:28The teenager is due to appear at Leeds Magistrates'

1:02:28 > 1:02:29Court this morning.

1:02:29 > 1:02:32All five victims were in the car when it crashed.

1:02:32 > 1:02:34The youngest were brothers, aged 12 and 14.

1:02:34 > 1:02:39Police have appealed for information.

1:02:39 > 1:02:42The Government is considering breaking up two of the country's

1:02:42 > 1:02:45biggest train operators as part of a new rail strategy.

1:02:45 > 1:02:47The franchises are Great Western and GTR which combines Southern,

1:02:47 > 1:02:52Thameslink and Great Northern.

1:02:52 > 1:02:54Ministers are also exploring the possibility that some

1:02:54 > 1:02:57of the lines closed during the 1960s could be re-opened.

1:02:57 > 1:02:59They say new rail lines can unlock jobs, encourage house building

1:02:59 > 1:03:04and ease overcrowding on the existing network.

1:03:04 > 1:03:06Asylum seekers are facing a "lottery" depending

1:03:06 > 1:03:08on where their appeal is heard, research by this

1:03:08 > 1:03:11programme has found.

1:03:11 > 1:03:13Appeals are twice as likely to be successful at some centres

1:03:13 > 1:03:15compared with others, data obtained through a Freedom

1:03:15 > 1:03:20of Information Request found.

1:03:20 > 1:03:23Lawyers for Michael Stone, the man found guilty of murdering

1:03:23 > 1:03:25a mother and daughter in Kent in 1996, say they'll release

1:03:25 > 1:03:30significant new evidence today that casts doubt on his conviction.

1:03:30 > 1:03:32Lin Russell and her six-year-old daughter, Megan, were attacked

1:03:32 > 1:03:35as they walked along a quiet country lane near the village of Chillenden,

1:03:35 > 1:03:42south east of Canterbury.

1:03:42 > 1:03:45Apple says it's working to fix a serious bug in its most recent

1:03:45 > 1:03:46Mac operating system.

1:03:46 > 1:03:49The flaw in the High Sierra software makes it possible to access

1:03:49 > 1:03:51a Mac computer or laptop without a password, and gain

1:03:51 > 1:03:54powerful administrator rights.

1:03:54 > 1:04:04That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30am.

1:04:05 > 1:04:11Thank you for getting in touch. Tim says, "The EU should supply us with

1:04:11 > 1:04:14a detailed invoice, down to the last million and then we should consider

1:04:14 > 1:04:19paying it." Luke says, "I voted out and still believe it was the right

1:04:19 > 1:04:22decision in the long run. Let's just pay it and get on with making our

1:04:22 > 1:04:28digital and banking services the best in the world." And Erika texts,

1:04:28 > 1:04:33"We shouldn't pay the EU anything until there is a full audit and

1:04:33 > 1:04:36financial justification for the outrageous amount being asked for."

1:04:36 > 1:04:40We will talk to a Conservative MP who is also a Leave campaigner in

1:04:40 > 1:04:45the next half an hour. We would like to hear from you as well. Tell us

1:04:45 > 1:04:48your own view. The Government agreeing to up the amount it pays to

1:04:48 > 1:04:59leave the EU. Anywhere, it is reported between 40 and 50 billion

1:04:59 > 1:05:06euros. Hugh is back. He has got the sport.

1:05:06 > 1:05:10Could Ben Stokes be coming to England's rescue in the Ashes? He

1:05:10 > 1:05:16has landed in New Zealand. He has brought his kit with him. He says he

1:05:16 > 1:05:23is there to visit his mum and dad. It has fuelled rumours he could be

1:05:23 > 1:05:30in line for an Ashes appearance. The players, well they say, they are

1:05:30 > 1:05:34introducing a midnight curfew to avoid any issues.It stops us from

1:05:34 > 1:05:38being out in the early hours of the morning which is a good thing. We

1:05:38 > 1:05:41are here to win games of cricket. An Ashes Series is a huge part of

1:05:41 > 1:05:45anyone's career and we are here to win the series. We are not here just

1:05:45 > 1:05:49to take part. The good thing for him is he is closer to Australia if the

1:05:49 > 1:05:52time was to come that he was to be able to come and join the squad. But

1:05:52 > 1:05:57we know no more than that and you know, hopefully if he can get some

1:05:57 > 1:06:01cricket under his belt that would be good for him having had a couple of

1:06:01 > 1:06:05months away from the game.

1:06:05 > 1:06:08Tottenham have just four points from the last 15 after another

1:06:08 > 1:06:09defeat in the Premier League.

1:06:09 > 1:06:11Riyad Mahrez put Leicester on their way to a 2-1 win

1:06:11 > 1:06:17over Spurs last night.

1:06:17 > 1:06:19Pochettino says his team "must improve".

1:06:19 > 1:06:21They could be 16 points behind leaders Manchester City,

1:06:21 > 1:06:23if they can win tonight.

1:06:23 > 1:06:25Despite Manchester United's 4-2 win at Watford, Jose Mourinho

1:06:25 > 1:06:28said his team were too wasteful.

1:06:28 > 1:06:32A brace from Ashley Young helped to put them 3-0 up,

1:06:32 > 1:06:36before two late Watford goals made for a tense finish.

1:06:36 > 1:06:38Jesse Lingard calmed nerves with a solo goal.

1:06:38 > 1:06:41West Brom missed out on a first Premier League win since August -

1:06:41 > 1:06:44giving away a two goal lead to draw 2-2 with Newcastle

1:06:44 > 1:06:45at the Hawthorns.

1:06:45 > 1:06:48Jonny Evans' own goal made the result even harder to take.

1:06:48 > 1:06:51Alan Pardew is set to be announced as the new man in charge

1:06:51 > 1:06:55at the Hawthorns later today.

1:06:55 > 1:06:56Brighton and Crystal Palace finished goalless.

1:06:56 > 1:07:00Interim head coach Mo Marley has given her chances

1:07:00 > 1:07:04of a permanent role a boost, after a 5-0 victory over

1:07:04 > 1:07:06Kazakhstan in World Cup qualifying.

1:07:06 > 1:07:11Mel Lawley scored the only goal in the first half on her full debut.

1:07:11 > 1:07:14Before England turned it on after the break scoring four

1:07:14 > 1:07:17goals in 12 minutes.

1:07:17 > 1:07:19Substitute Fran Kirby grabbed a penalty, before setting up

1:07:19 > 1:07:24Nikita Parris for her first and England's third.

1:07:24 > 1:07:28There was a process, an application process on the 17th. That's when the

1:07:28 > 1:07:33time was when I first did it. I agreed to put the CV in and we said

1:07:33 > 1:07:38we would have a look at it. I think now it is about letting the players

1:07:38 > 1:07:42enjoy it. Hopefully the players are pleased with their own performances

1:07:42 > 1:07:46and we will sit down and have a look and see what's right for the team

1:07:46 > 1:07:50moving forward. England second in Group 1. That's

1:07:50 > 1:07:55after Wales' victory last night. A win too for Northern Ireland. That's

1:07:55 > 1:08:00all the sport for now, Victoria, I will have more later in the hour.

1:08:00 > 1:08:02The Government has offered a larger potential divorce bill

1:08:02 > 1:08:12to the European Union.

1:08:12 > 1:08:14It's reported that the UK could pay up to 50 billion euros

1:08:14 > 1:08:19to cover its liabilities.

1:08:19 > 1:08:25Let's talk to our Political Guru Norman Smith in Westminster.

1:08:25 > 1:08:28It is a huge amount of money and it looks like the Government will pay?

1:08:28 > 1:08:34We are going to pay and pay big time. It is more than the 20 billion

1:08:34 > 1:08:39which Mrs May floated in Florence. See said we will go to 20 billion.

1:08:39 > 1:08:45Now the signs are we could go quite a way beyond that. This morning's

1:08:45 > 1:08:54papers, the Guardian says UK faces £50 billion divorce bill. FT,

1:08:54 > 1:08:58Britain bows to pressure on divorce bill. There is suggestions it could

1:08:58 > 1:09:05be between 40 to 55 billion euros. We reckon it will be in the 50s. The

1:09:05 > 1:09:1055 billion figure Downing Street say is wrong, but we are looking at the

1:09:10 > 1:09:1540 billions. Why this matters this is considerably more than May said,

1:09:15 > 1:09:21Mrs May said in Florence, but also much more than we were told in the

1:09:21 > 1:09:25referendum campaign or indeed just a few months ago because we had senior

1:09:25 > 1:09:30Leave figures like Boris Johnson, in the Commons, just a few months ago,

1:09:30 > 1:09:35saying that the EU could basically go whistle if they expected any big

1:09:35 > 1:09:40pay-out. Here is a reminder of what he said.

1:09:40 > 1:09:44The sums that I have seen that they propose to demand

1:09:44 > 1:09:50from this country seem to me extortionate and I

1:09:50 > 1:09:52think "to go whistle" is an entirely

1:09:52 > 1:09:58appropriate expression.

1:09:58 > 1:10:03You remember the Brexiteers bus suggesting we would get £350 million

1:10:03 > 1:10:07a week back, now it seems we will be paying billions and billions to the

1:10:07 > 1:10:13EU possibly for many years to come. Some here think this is the EU

1:10:13 > 1:10:16trying to strong-arm Mrs May into paying more money. In other words

1:10:16 > 1:10:21they have leaked the figures to try and bounce her into agreeing to this

1:10:21 > 1:10:25big sum, but this morning, Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator,

1:10:25 > 1:10:28well, he wasn't giving much away.

1:10:28 > 1:10:30Do you welcome Britain's decision to pay more, Mr Barnier?

1:10:30 > 1:10:31Is it enough?

1:10:31 > 1:10:41We are still working.

1:10:41 > 1:10:49Still working. We are going to pay a lot more than

1:10:49 > 1:10:53the 20 billion floated by Mrs May and we seem to be inching towards a

1:10:53 > 1:10:57deal at the crucial EU Summit next month. Cheers, Norman, thank you.

1:10:57 > 1:10:59Let's get the view from Brussels and speak to our correspondent

1:10:59 > 1:11:04Damian Gramatticas.

1:11:04 > 1:11:08Why is it so much, Damien?The EU side to be very clear does not put

1:11:08 > 1:11:12any figure on this and they have not from the outset and that is for two

1:11:12 > 1:11:16reasons. One is that the politics in the UK, they know, is very sensitive

1:11:16 > 1:11:21around this and the second is a very practical issue because the

1:11:21 > 1:11:24different components to this, stretch out over a very long time.

1:11:24 > 1:11:29The EU position has always been what it needs is a methodology agreed

1:11:29 > 1:11:33from the UK that it will pay for each of those separate components.

1:11:33 > 1:11:37Things like annual payments going into the EU budget in the next

1:11:37 > 1:11:41couple of years, maybe 20 billion, outstanding payments for things that

1:11:41 > 1:11:45have already been committed to, that could stretch far into the future,

1:11:45 > 1:11:49perhaps another 20 billion, but like any big project, when you commit to

1:11:49 > 1:11:53something, you don't know the final exact spending and that gets worked

1:11:53 > 1:11:58out over time in the EU. The bill will not be clear for a bit.

1:11:58 > 1:12:03Pensions for EU staff could be paid out in 30, 40, 50 years' time. A UK

1:12:03 > 1:12:07share of that won't be known for many years then. That could be

1:12:07 > 1:12:12another say 10 billion. Other loan guarantees that could fall due in

1:12:12 > 1:12:15years to come, so there are many aspects that are difficult to

1:12:15 > 1:12:20quantify now, that's why the EU said what it needs is the basic

1:12:20 > 1:12:23calculation, the basic methodology what the UK will commit to laid out,

1:12:23 > 1:12:27but they are still saying as you heard from Michel Barnier that we

1:12:27 > 1:12:31are still working and they need Theresa May to come here on Monday

1:12:31 > 1:12:35to hear what she will say top them and then it has to go to the member

1:12:35 > 1:12:40states, the 27, who would be the ones to sign off on this. So from

1:12:40 > 1:12:44the EU side they still they are some way from a satisfactory resolution

1:12:44 > 1:12:55of this. Let's talk to Crispin blunt. What do

1:12:55 > 1:13:05you think of this bill?This bill, I trust will be contingent upon there

1:13:05 > 1:13:08being a Free Trade Agreement...We will talk about that in a moment.

1:13:08 > 1:13:11Half of the number is related to the transition period where we would

1:13:11 > 1:13:16continue to belong to the single market and the customs union after

1:13:16 > 1:13:21we have formally left the European Union in March 2019 and for the next

1:13:21 > 1:13:25two years which would align with the EU's own seven year budget period,

1:13:25 > 1:13:30we would pay in the order of another £20 billion as we are paying,

1:13:30 > 1:13:34exactly as we are paying now. So that would be, that's about half

1:13:34 > 1:13:40this figure and then as Damien was explaining, there are liabilities

1:13:40 > 1:13:45which plainly we have. Some are a moral obligation towards the

1:13:45 > 1:13:49pensions of civil servants of European Union officials and then

1:13:49 > 1:13:54we'll have to see what the detail is on the other sums that look as

1:13:54 > 1:14:01though they are being agreed that the UK has accepted some moral

1:14:01 > 1:14:07obligation to.I don't remember you saying any of that during the

1:14:07 > 1:14:13campaign, during your campaign to leave the EU?Well, no, because, you

1:14:13 > 1:14:17weren't talking personally to me. I only appeared on a few shows and you

1:14:17 > 1:14:24will need to look at the Foreign Affairs Committee report that we did

1:14:24 > 1:14:27in advance of the referendum when we looked at the pluses and minuses of

1:14:27 > 1:14:31staying and the pluses and minuses of leaving the European Union.But

1:14:31 > 1:14:33did you say to your own constituents when you were trying to persuade

1:14:33 > 1:14:38them to vote to leave, this is going to cost up to 50 billion euros and

1:14:38 > 1:14:44these are the reasons why?This is kind of typical of how we conduct

1:14:44 > 1:14:49this conversation. There is plainly a negotiation going to go on now and

1:14:49 > 1:14:56half this sum relates to extra years bhoiles we transition out...I know,

1:14:56 > 1:15:00you've already said that. All I'm asking you, when you say it is

1:15:00 > 1:15:04typical of how the conversation goes. Did you make that clear to

1:15:04 > 1:15:08your constituents?Well, no one would have been in a position to

1:15:08 > 1:15:13know what the liabilities are the assets that the United Kingdom may

1:15:13 > 1:15:17have some long-term claim to as well as as part of this. We don't know

1:15:17 > 1:15:21the detail of this yet and certainly wouldn't have known the detail

1:15:21 > 1:15:28before zblps did you ever say... In June 2016.

1:15:28 > 1:15:30Did you ever say it would cost billions?

1:15:30 > 1:15:33Did you ever say it would cost billions? Did you ever tell your

1:15:33 > 1:15:39constituents it could cost billions? Did you ever...I had in never have

1:15:39 > 1:15:44that conversation. I would have always been clear and said this on a

1:15:44 > 1:15:47public that one, that there would be upfront costs for the UK leaving the

1:15:47 > 1:15:52EU. Of course there will be. The country is going to make a serious

1:15:52 > 1:15:56change of direction by leaving the EU and any big organisation making a

1:15:56 > 1:15:59big change of direction is inevitably going to be faced with

1:15:59 > 1:16:04upfront costs and I certainly said that on a platform. I couldn't have

1:16:04 > 1:16:09put a number on it at that stage but the long-term benefits here, as we

1:16:09 > 1:16:12come out of the European Union, stop having to pay the order of £10

1:16:12 > 1:16:18billion per year. In this budget period and a budget we kept down

1:16:18 > 1:16:22when David Cameron negotiated this in 2014. And almost certainly it

1:16:22 > 1:16:26will rise quite significantly in the next seven year budget period. Our

1:16:26 > 1:16:30obligations will rise, as well. We will no longer have those

1:16:30 > 1:16:37obligations of the sort of size.You understand... Biggar off the hook

1:16:37 > 1:16:40now of a net contribution of 10 billion per year for the decades to

1:16:40 > 1:16:46come.If you take this referendum decision in the same as last one,

1:16:46 > 1:16:51that is £400 billion saved for the UK.Will you understand if some

1:16:51 > 1:16:55Leave voters feel betrayed by the sums discussed today?Given the way

1:16:55 > 1:17:03it's being presented by the media and the immediate cost, and no

1:17:03 > 1:17:07consideration of the long-term benefits, which is why we took this

1:17:07 > 1:17:11decision, certainly the case I made, about the decades to come. This is

1:17:11 > 1:17:16not about the next two or three years because clearly there are

1:17:16 > 1:17:22upfront costs. Those costs are inevitable. The long-term benefits

1:17:22 > 1:17:30of being free to set our own rules for our own economy as a non-euro

1:17:30 > 1:17:32country, we were never going to be in the right place in the long-term

1:17:32 > 1:17:36by being outvoted by the countries in the EU on the shape of the

1:17:36 > 1:17:41economy, will be in the right place to set our own rules and will be

1:17:41 > 1:17:44free of the ongoing 10 billion per year not contribution which will

1:17:44 > 1:17:47almost certainly rise significantly and that is saving somewhere in the

1:17:47 > 1:17:56order of half £1 trillion.Thank you. Still to come, we'll talk about

1:17:56 > 1:18:00North Korea.

1:18:00 > 1:18:02North Korea boasts of testing its "most powerful"

1:18:02 > 1:18:04ballistic missile to date - capable of reaching

1:18:04 > 1:18:11mainland America.

1:18:11 > 1:18:14This programme has found a lottery when appealing a sound decisions.

1:18:14 > 1:18:19With appeals almost twice as likely to be successful at some centres as

1:18:19 > 1:18:25others. One worker has told is that the situation is so bad that some

1:18:25 > 1:18:29lawyers have lied about the dress of their clients to get their case

1:18:29 > 1:18:32heard at a different location.

1:18:32 > 1:18:34Mohamed al-Refai is 21 and lives in Portsmouth.

1:18:34 > 1:18:38He says he was forced to flee Syria and is seeking UK asylum but he says

1:18:38 > 1:18:39he's never had a good lawyer.

1:18:39 > 1:18:42His first asylum claim failed and so did his appeal.

1:18:42 > 1:18:44I didn't feel like somebody support me, you know?

1:18:44 > 1:18:47For example, the solicitor, she doesn't do her work for this case.

1:18:47 > 1:18:57The court was as well unfair with me.

1:19:01 > 1:19:04He now has a new legal representative and is putting in a

1:19:04 > 1:19:15fresh claim for asylum.

1:19:23 > 1:19:30We've been investigating cases throughout the UK and to a Freedom

1:19:30 > 1:19:32of information request, we found big variations in the number of

1:19:32 > 1:19:35successful appears... Appeals depending on what hearing censured

1:19:35 > 1:19:40the consent of their app. A quick scan down this list shows you a huge

1:19:40 > 1:19:43difference in results of a four years. Taking two centres that have

1:19:43 > 1:19:48a lot of cases, both in London. Harmondsworth, 24% of appeals were

1:19:48 > 1:19:56successful. At Tayler House, it was 47%. The variations exist across the

1:19:56 > 1:19:57whole UK.

1:20:17 > 1:20:21It is not possible to give a reason, but a difference of culture at

1:20:21 > 1:20:27hearing centres bring up the differences again and again.I'm

1:20:27 > 1:20:30sadly not surprised at all. It's a kind of arbitrary decision-making

1:20:30 > 1:20:35which I see across the systems all the time that two cases can have

1:20:35 > 1:20:40completely different results. Based on different judges and different

1:20:40 > 1:20:46hearing centres.How far do you see lawyers go to get their clients into

1:20:46 > 1:20:59places where the results are better and more likely to get asylum?

1:21:03 > 1:21:06Well, I do know of cases where people have lied about their address

1:21:06 > 1:21:08so that they would be in the Taylor House

1:21:08 > 1:21:10district and what have they hearings heard there.

1:21:10 > 1:21:12Is that an acceptable thing to do?

1:21:12 > 1:21:13No, that's not acceptable.

1:21:13 > 1:21:14I think these statistics are very upsetting.

1:21:14 > 1:21:17This suggestion that there are advice deserts and legal aid

1:21:17 > 1:21:19deserts for people in different parts of the country means people

1:21:19 > 1:21:21are going into asylum appeals unrepresented.

1:21:21 > 1:21:28That is completely unacceptable in a humane democracy.

1:21:28 > 1:21:29The Government

1:21:29 > 1:21:30has a responsibility to investigate further.

1:21:30 > 1:21:32Why so many successful appeals across the country,

1:21:32 > 1:21:39and why such disparity in different parts of the country?

1:21:39 > 1:21:41Mohammed's hopeful that he will secure asylum

1:21:41 > 1:21:44in the UK, but he's already been here four years, and he says

1:21:44 > 1:21:46he doesn't let himself think about the future,

1:21:46 > 1:21:49any future, any more.

1:21:49 > 1:21:53Let's took to the shadow Attorney General, calling for an urgent

1:21:53 > 1:22:08investigation into the figures. . Thank you, all of you, for coming on

1:22:08 > 1:22:12the programme. What do you think are the possible reasons why 24% of

1:22:12 > 1:22:15asylum seeker appeals are successful at one London hearing centre,

1:22:15 > 1:22:25whereas at another its 47%?It is an astonishing disparity and there are

1:22:25 > 1:22:28many reasons. That's excellent report said it was difficult to say

1:22:28 > 1:22:32there was one reason. I have to say that legal aid for people in general

1:22:32 > 1:22:37and son asylum seekers in particular has been all but obliterated in this

1:22:37 > 1:22:41country. Judges are only as good as the representations that are made

1:22:41 > 1:22:46before them. I don't think that anybody should go to an asylum

1:22:46 > 1:22:51appeal inadequately represented or without representation at all.A

1:22:51 > 1:22:53spokesman for the judiciary says, all judges consider each case

1:22:53 > 1:22:58individually, based on relevant facts and the law. There may be

1:22:58 > 1:23:02number of factors that explain different outcomes but judges will

1:23:02 > 1:23:06always deal with each case fairly and based on the merits. You will

1:23:06 > 1:23:11have come across many judges in your time. Are you saying you don't trust

1:23:11 > 1:23:17them?Not at all. A judge is only as good as the representations before

1:23:17 > 1:23:21them. If you've got... Asylum can be a really complex question, whether

1:23:21 > 1:23:26someone qualifies for refugee Convention protection. People cannot

1:23:26 > 1:23:31represent themselves. It's unfair on a judge who is faced with a

1:23:31 > 1:23:35representative of the Home Office on one hand to compensate for the fact

1:23:35 > 1:23:39that somebody else has either not been legally represented or they've

1:23:39 > 1:23:43got a lawyer whose is turned up at the last minute and only just seen

1:23:43 > 1:23:46the papers. This is what is happening and it's unfair on the

1:23:46 > 1:23:52judges and not fair on the asylum seekers.Syed, you represent people

1:23:52 > 1:23:56at asylum appeals. What do you think of this variation?My experience

1:23:56 > 1:24:01with judges, to echo those sentiments, has been largely quite

1:24:01 > 1:24:08positive. They're quite a vital safeguard in dealing with often very

1:24:08 > 1:24:14poor decision-making on part of the Home Office. We are not having a go

1:24:14 > 1:24:20at the judges. I think the whole issue resonates from the legal aid

1:24:20 > 1:24:25cuts. Your research was carried out over a period of four years and

1:24:25 > 1:24:32that's essentially when these legal aid cuts had started. From 1st of

1:24:32 > 1:24:40April 2013, there's been immigration legal aid... It was completely

1:24:40 > 1:24:44changed. A lot of areas that were previously within the scope of legal

1:24:44 > 1:24:48aid have been taken out. There's a very limited type of immigration

1:24:48 > 1:24:52cases that you can actually do within the scope of legal aid.Do

1:24:52 > 1:24:56you acknowledge that it's possible that some of the appeals are

1:24:56 > 1:25:07rejected because the case is weak? I... That... May be a reason but I

1:25:07 > 1:25:10think there are various factors at play. Legal aid in my opinion is the

1:25:10 > 1:25:18main factor. If a client isn't able to get representation, asylum is a

1:25:18 > 1:25:31very complex area.You will see variations. Natasha, success rates

1:25:31 > 1:25:34of these appeals are very low at hearing centres that are near

1:25:34 > 1:25:41detention centres. Why might that be?We visit a lot in your walls

1:25:41 > 1:25:43would detention centre, the detention centre where women are

1:25:43 > 1:25:48held. In our research we find that more than half the women locked up

1:25:48 > 1:25:53say they find it really hard to access any legal advice. They often

1:25:53 > 1:25:57have very poor legal advice. What I'd like to do is highlight the

1:25:57 > 1:26:02human cost of this because I think we can get bogged down in this talk

1:26:02 > 1:26:06of the lawyers and tribunal 's and certainly lose sight of the fact

1:26:06 > 1:26:09that these are often... They are life or death decisions to a lot of

1:26:09 > 1:26:13people. The last tribunal appeal that I went to was actually at one

1:26:13 > 1:26:17of the centres that is not highlighted as being a major problem

1:26:17 > 1:26:23in your research, Taylor House. The woman was underrepresented. She was

1:26:23 > 1:26:28a survivor of the most brutal rape and torture from the Congo. She had

1:26:28 > 1:26:34good medical evidence from Freedom from-cam torture, but she hadn't

1:26:34 > 1:26:40brought it to the hearing. She didn't even know she should have

1:26:40 > 1:26:44brought evidence of her hospital appointments with her. Her appeal

1:26:44 > 1:26:48was a shocking experience. I wasn't able to speak, I was just there to

1:26:48 > 1:26:55give her moral support. She wasn't even able to say the word rape in

1:26:55 > 1:26:57the court. We're talking about traumatised woman who hasn't yet

1:26:57 > 1:27:02come to terms with what has happened to her. She couldn't speak about the

1:27:02 > 1:27:07way soldiers have treated her, she fallen pregnant as a result of the

1:27:07 > 1:27:11rape, she had hospital treatment for her injuries. She was up against the

1:27:11 > 1:27:14Home Office lawyer that attacked her credibility in every way possible.

1:27:14 > 1:27:20It was a shocking experience. This is a highly adversarial process.

1:27:20 > 1:27:24It's like a kitten in a cage with a Rottweiler. She stood no chance and

1:27:24 > 1:27:29was turned down.You reacted with horror at that.It's just not a fair

1:27:29 > 1:27:33hearing if one side is not represented and the judge cannot

1:27:33 > 1:27:39compensate for that.I couldn't... You know, I'm not allowed to speak.

1:27:39 > 1:27:44I'm not a lawyer. I can jump up and say -- I cannot jump up and say,

1:27:44 > 1:27:51what she means to say is... She was brutally raped.Your disparity is

1:27:51 > 1:27:55shocking. I have to say it's a wonderful investigation because a

1:27:55 > 1:28:00lot of journalists ignore this question. It is not the sexiest

1:28:00 > 1:28:04subject on TV. It's important that your colleagues have done this. But,

1:28:04 > 1:28:07yes, the disparities across the country after browsing and

1:28:07 > 1:28:10upsetting, but what about just the fact that about 36% of appeals are

1:28:10 > 1:28:16successful? That shows who first instance decision-making by the Home

1:28:16 > 1:28:23Office that it is responsible for refugee Convention.What would you

1:28:23 > 1:28:26like to see?I think it's a shame that nobody from the government has

1:28:26 > 1:28:32spoken to your programme. That's way too defensive and not acceptable.

1:28:32 > 1:28:37That's a shame. I would like them to take this more seriously and

1:28:37 > 1:28:41consider it. Yes, look at the disparities but also at the initial

1:28:41 > 1:28:45decision-making. In the end, I believe it's the duty of the Lord

1:28:45 > 1:28:49Chancellor Justice Secretary to make that every single person who is

1:28:49 > 1:28:54facing removal from this country, potentially in breach of the refugee

1:28:54 > 1:29:00Convention, has access to advice and representation.OK, thank you.I'd

1:29:00 > 1:29:04also say, it sounds as though we are asking for more money to be pumped

1:29:04 > 1:29:07into the system but at the moment the system is so inefficient, huge

1:29:07 > 1:29:10delays, people having to go to further appeals and judicial reviews

1:29:10 > 1:29:14all the time. If there were some aren't loading that people got

1:29:14 > 1:29:17decent advice and therefore decent first decisions right at the

1:29:17 > 1:29:27beginning, I actually think it would be much cheaper.All other areas of

1:29:27 > 1:29:31civil law, including domestic abuse, we need advice and representation in

1:29:31 > 1:29:35this country.Thank you very much.

1:29:35 > 1:29:40We asked the mystery of justice for comment. They haven't commented yet.

1:29:40 > 1:29:45The judicial office said that all judges consider each case based on

1:29:45 > 1:29:52the relevant facts and the law and there may be issues. They will

1:29:52 > 1:29:56always deal with it fairly and on its merits. Immigration judges are

1:29:56 > 1:30:04deployed across various centres and do not sit solely in any single one.

1:30:04 > 1:30:08You've been telling us what you make of the Brexit divorce Bill, set to

1:30:08 > 1:30:13be up to potentially 50 billion euros. We'll talk to some voters,

1:30:13 > 1:30:23those who voted to leave, in the next half hour.

1:30:24 > 1:30:26Time for the latest news, here's Annita.

1:30:26 > 1:30:31Good morning.

1:30:31 > 1:30:33The BBC understands that the Government has offered

1:30:33 > 1:30:36the European Union between 40 and 40 billion euros as a financial

1:30:36 > 1:30:38settlement for Britain's withdrawal from the EU.

1:30:38 > 1:30:40Downing Street said no final figure had been agreed

1:30:40 > 1:30:43and negotiations were continuing.

1:30:43 > 1:30:44The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, told

1:30:44 > 1:30:50the BBC that the UK would "meet our obligations".

1:30:50 > 1:30:52North Korea has claimed its latest ballistic missile test demonstrates

1:30:52 > 1:30:55it now has the capability to strike anywhere in the United States.

1:30:55 > 1:30:58Experts say the altitude it achieved strongly indicates that if it

1:30:58 > 1:31:00were fired at a different angle, it could reach Washington.

1:31:00 > 1:31:03China has urged all sides to stop actions which it said

1:31:03 > 1:31:07heightened tensions.

1:31:08 > 1:31:13A 15-year-old boy has been charged with causing the deaths by dangerous

1:31:13 > 1:31:15driving of three children and two men who died in a collision

1:31:15 > 1:31:16in Leeds on Saturday.

1:31:16 > 1:31:19The teenager is due to appear at Leeds Magistrates'

1:31:19 > 1:31:22Court this morning.

1:31:22 > 1:31:24All five victims were in the car when it crashed.

1:31:24 > 1:31:26The youngest were brothers, aged 12 and 14.

1:31:26 > 1:31:31Police have appealed for information.

1:31:31 > 1:31:33Lawyers for Michael Stone, the man found guilty of murdering

1:31:33 > 1:31:37a mother and daughter in Kent in 1996, say they'll release

1:31:37 > 1:31:43significant new evidence today that casts doubt on his conviction.

1:31:43 > 1:31:45Lin Russell and her six-year-old daughter, Megan,

1:31:45 > 1:31:47were attacked as they walked along a quiet country lane

1:31:47 > 1:31:53near the village of Chillenden, south east of Canterbury.

1:31:54 > 1:31:57Apple says it's working to fix a serious bug in its most recent

1:31:57 > 1:31:58Mac operating system.

1:31:58 > 1:32:01The flaw in the High Sierra software makes it possible to access

1:32:01 > 1:32:03a Mac computer or laptop without a password, and gain

1:32:03 > 1:32:06powerful administrator rights.

1:32:07 > 1:32:13That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

1:32:13 > 1:32:18Thank you very much. I want to thank this woman who has

1:32:18 > 1:32:20e-mailed and it is about coercive control. We were talking about this

1:32:20 > 1:32:26earlier. Legislation, the law was changed this 2015 to make coercive

1:32:26 > 1:32:31control a crime and we have been talking about the arrests since

1:32:31 > 1:32:34then, 4,000 arrests for coercive control, but only 17% of those

1:32:34 > 1:32:40arrested go on to be charged. We spoke it a woman who described being

1:32:40 > 1:32:44a victim of coercive control. This viewer says, "I am a mum that

1:32:44 > 1:32:50believes her daughter is in a marriage with coercive control.

1:32:50 > 1:32:54After watching Lisa-Marie discussing her experiences earlier. I would

1:32:54 > 1:32:57like to know if there is an organisation that I can make contact

1:32:57 > 1:33:02with seek advice as I have watched this happening to my daughter for

1:33:02 > 1:33:06many years and it has now resulted in my daughter falling out with me

1:33:06 > 1:33:11and the rest of hadar family. We have had no contact with my daughter

1:33:11 > 1:33:15and two grandchildren for two years due to her husband's controlling

1:33:15 > 1:33:21behaviour and I am heartbroken. ." Yes, there are many organisations

1:33:21 > 1:33:25that can help and I want to point you first of all in the direction of

1:33:25 > 1:33:33the BBC's action line if I may, Michelle.

1:33:33 > 1:33:38If you type that in, then they will be able to guide you and point you

1:33:38 > 1:33:40in the right direction, hopefully to help your daughter.

1:33:40 > 1:33:45Thank you very much for getting in touch with us. We appreciate it.

1:33:45 > 1:33:48Here's some sport now with Hugh.

1:33:48 > 1:33:52Cricketer Ben Stokes has sparked stories of an impending England

1:33:52 > 1:33:55return by flying in to Christchurch with the prospect of playing club

1:33:55 > 1:33:57cricket in New Zealand this weekend.

1:33:57 > 1:34:00He also had his England kitbag in toe with his

1:34:00 > 1:34:06team-mates not far away in Australia following that first

1:34:06 > 1:34:07Test defeat in the Ashes.

1:34:07 > 1:34:11Manchester United boss Jose Mourinho was unhappy

1:34:11 > 1:34:15with his team's wastefulness, saying they should have been five

1:34:15 > 1:34:18or six up in their 4-2 Premier League win at Watford.

1:34:18 > 1:34:203-0 up at half-time, Jesse Lingard's goal

1:34:20 > 1:34:21ended a tense finale.

1:34:21 > 1:34:23It's now four points from their last five league games

1:34:23 > 1:34:24for Tottenham Hotspur.

1:34:24 > 1:34:26They were beaten 2-1 by Leicester City.

1:34:26 > 1:34:28Their manager Mauricio Pochettino said he was

1:34:28 > 1:34:31"disappointed and frustrated".

1:34:31 > 1:34:36England's women made it three wins from three

1:34:36 > 1:34:38in World Cup qualifying with a 5-0 thrashing of Kazakhstan.

1:34:38 > 1:34:43There were also wins for Wales and Northern Ireland.

1:34:43 > 1:34:59That's all the sport for now. More in newsroom live after 11am.

1:35:04 > 1:35:06North Korea says it has successfully tested its "most powerful" ballistic

1:35:06 > 1:35:09missile to date State television said Pyongyang had achieved its

1:35:09 > 1:35:10mission of becoming a nuclear state.

1:35:10 > 1:35:12The Hwasong-15 missile, was launched in darkness this

1:35:12 > 1:35:14morning before landing in Japanese waters.

1:35:14 > 1:35:16It flew higher than any other missile the North had previously

1:35:16 > 1:35:24tested and is believed to be capable of hitting most of the

1:35:24 > 1:35:25President Trump has promised to "handle" the situation

1:35:25 > 1:35:29without offering any details about America's response might be.

1:35:29 > 1:35:31As you probably have heard, and some of you have

1:35:31 > 1:35:35reported, a missile was launched a little while ago from North Korea.

1:35:35 > 1:35:38I will only tell you that we will take care of it.

1:35:38 > 1:35:41We have General Mattis in the room with us and we have had

1:35:41 > 1:35:42a long discussion on it.

1:35:42 > 1:35:50It is a situation that we will handle.

1:35:50 > 1:35:52And, unsurprisingly, the reaction inside North Korea

1:35:52 > 1:35:54to the test has been positive.

1:35:54 > 1:35:56TRANSLATION:With the respected Supreme Commander Comrade Kim

1:35:56 > 1:35:58Jong-un, our country could develop into the world's strongest

1:35:58 > 1:35:59nuclear power.

1:35:59 > 1:36:07I think the world cannot exist without our country.

1:36:07 > 1:36:10TRANSLATION:I just want to ask a question to Trump, a dotard who

1:36:10 > 1:36:13is frequently backbiting our dignity - can you still dare to backbite

1:36:13 > 1:36:14about our country?

1:36:14 > 1:36:16Can you continue to do it even while Hwasong-15 is fired

1:36:16 > 1:36:26at the US mainland?

1:36:31 > 1:36:34Joining me in the studio is John Everard - former UK

1:36:34 > 1:36:36ambassador to North Korea and on webcam,

1:36:36 > 1:36:38Elizabeth Minor, an advisor for Article 36 - a UK

1:36:38 > 1:36:40partner and steering group for the International Campaign

1:36:40 > 1:36:42to Abolish Nuclear Weapons.

1:36:42 > 1:36:47John, first of all, this is a more powerful missile, isn't it? How

1:36:47 > 1:36:51alarmed should we be?We should be quite alarmed. It went ten times as

1:36:51 > 1:36:54high as the International Space Station. It demonstrated a

1:36:54 > 1:36:58considerable range and if it was fired who are accidentally rather

1:36:58 > 1:37:02than vertically, it would be able to hit targets pretty much anywhere in

1:37:02 > 1:37:07the Continental United States. We are not sure whether the pay load it

1:37:07 > 1:37:11carried was of the same weight as a nuclear bomb. It maybe they put

1:37:11 > 1:37:16something lighter on so. So the North Koreans may not be there, but

1:37:16 > 1:37:22a significant step forward to the North Koreans ambition to be able to

1:37:22 > 1:37:26threaten all American cities with nuclear devastation.Wow. And how do

1:37:26 > 1:37:32you react to that Elizabeth?This most recent missile test shows that

1:37:32 > 1:37:37North Korea is continuing to develop a capacity to use nuclear weapons on

1:37:37 > 1:37:50cities which is unacceptable behaviour for any state. This cycle

1:37:50 > 1:37:54of dangerous escalation and sanction which is imperilling the region

1:37:54 > 1:37:59right now can only be ended through an international solution that

1:37:59 > 1:38:02addresses the elimination of nuclear weapons and actually the majority of

1:38:02 > 1:38:06the world's countries have been working towards this, this year by

1:38:06 > 1:38:09negotiating a treaty prohibiting nuclear weapons which was adopted at

1:38:09 > 1:38:13the unin July this year. What do you think they will do next,

1:38:13 > 1:38:19John?I don't think they said. They have got another nuclear test. A few

1:38:19 > 1:38:23weeks ago their Foreign Minister was saying it might have to be ant moss

1:38:23 > 1:38:28feric test over the Pacific. So a mushroom cloud. The first one since

1:38:28 > 1:38:331980. I think that really would send shock waves both physical and

1:38:33 > 1:38:37psychological through the world.And what after that?After that, they

1:38:37 > 1:38:41will continue testing their missiles until they are convinced that they

1:38:41 > 1:38:44have a reliable deterrent and at that point, they will announce that

1:38:44 > 1:38:49they have achieved their goal and I suspect that at that point they will

1:38:49 > 1:38:53start to attempt to strong arm South Korea into submission. I think

1:38:53 > 1:38:56that's part of the long-term strategy.OK. So in terms of the

1:38:56 > 1:39:00fact that they have a more dangerous missile. The situation is more

1:39:00 > 1:39:06dangerous. They are becoming more aggressive, one might argue, in the

1:39:06 > 1:39:09way they are testing these things, what should the rest of the world

1:39:09 > 1:39:12do?The rest of the world is frankly stuck. We watched President Trump

1:39:12 > 1:39:15just say he will handle the situation, which, of course, means

1:39:15 > 1:39:21nothing. The only coherent response we have had from the United States

1:39:21 > 1:39:29has been from secretary Tillerson who said the next step must be the

1:39:29 > 1:39:31right to interindite North Koreans vessels, that's to board them on the

1:39:31 > 1:39:36high seas.Wouldn't that provoke them more?It would irritate them

1:39:36 > 1:39:38and throttle back their trade which is what secretary Tillerson is

1:39:38 > 1:39:43trying to do. Part this is a race against time. Do the North Koreans

1:39:43 > 1:39:47complete their tests and develop their credible deterrent after the

1:39:47 > 1:39:52threat to their economy causes them to stop and causes them to worry ab

1:39:52 > 1:40:01popular revolt?Thank you very much. John and Elizabeth.

1:40:01 > 1:40:04Apologies because the Skype did freeze on Elizabeth, but we could

1:40:04 > 1:40:12hear her perfectly clearly. Thank you.

1:40:12 > 1:40:14The UK's annual celebration of music of black origin makes

1:40:14 > 1:40:22a return to Leeds tonight.

1:40:22 > 1:40:24The MOBOs will be presented by presenter Maya Jama.

1:40:24 > 1:40:27She's the youngest ever presenter and will take to the stage alongside

1:40:27 > 1:40:28former JLS member Marvin Humes.

1:40:28 > 1:40:31US star Cardi B, Krept and Konan, Stefflon Don,and Yxng Bane

1:40:31 > 1:40:33are all performing.

1:40:33 > 1:40:35In a moment we'll speak to Yxng Bane who has been

1:40:35 > 1:40:36nominated for best newcomer.

1:40:36 > 1:40:41Have a look at this first.

1:40:41 > 1:40:42MUSIC: Rihanna by Yxng Bane

1:40:42 > 1:40:44# Can I tell you that I'm wanting you?

1:40:44 > 1:40:46# I'm in love with the way you move

1:40:46 > 1:40:49# And I think you should have a drink or two

1:40:49 > 1:40:52# Truth is I want to lie with you so come away

1:40:52 > 1:40:53# Feel like you need somebody

1:40:53 > 1:40:55# So baby girl come my way

1:40:55 > 1:40:59# Feel like you somebody

1:40:59 > 1:41:02# Dip low, watching her dip low

1:41:02 > 1:41:05# Dances on me and now she sip slow

1:41:05 > 1:41:07# Watching your head down to your tip toe

1:41:07 > 1:41:09# You know, I got something for when we get home

1:41:09 > 1:41:12# Get home, now you're in my zone, in my zone

1:41:12 > 1:41:13# And we gon' get going

1:41:13 > 1:41:15# Wood in your frame it's like window

1:41:15 > 1:41:18# Tear off your garments we can bin those

1:41:18 > 1:41:21# I said gimme your love, you know you're bad like Rihanna

1:41:21 > 1:41:26# I'll do you good no wahala

1:41:26 > 1:41:32Hi, good morning.Thank you for having me.Thank you for coming on

1:41:32 > 1:41:36the programme and congratulations on your nomination for best newcomer.

1:41:36 > 1:41:43How are you feeling about tonight? Really, excited and nervous.A

1:41:43 > 1:41:48couple years ago you were uploading tracks to SoundCloud, now you're

1:41:48 > 1:41:52nominated for a MOBO, how does that happen?I remember going to the

1:41:52 > 1:41:55studio the first day. I wasn't even supposed to record anything. I was

1:41:55 > 1:42:01just tagging along with some pals and once I put the music on

1:42:01 > 1:42:04SoundCloud the reaction was crazy. We had one million listeners. That

1:42:04 > 1:42:08gave me more motivation to keep going and now we're here today.You

1:42:08 > 1:42:13have been included in the long list for the BBC's 2018 sound of list.

1:42:13 > 1:42:18How do you react to that?I didn't know how to react to that. I didn't

1:42:18 > 1:42:23know how to react to that. When that came through and I was told by my

1:42:23 > 1:42:27manager I was just pretty stunned really. Blessings after blessings.

1:42:27 > 1:42:31I'm just enjoying the ride.Well, it is really good to see you and to see

1:42:31 > 1:42:39how happy you are.Yeah.You remixed Shape Of You. The videos had 14

1:42:39 > 1:42:47million YouTube views. Let's have a clip for our audience.

1:42:47 > 1:42:55# I want to my hands on you. # I love the shape of you.

1:42:55 > 1:43:09# I want to put my hands on you. # I'm in love with your body. Hrk

1:43:09 > 1:43:13How did that come about?Here is the story behind this one. I was in the

1:43:13 > 1:43:19studio and I got a phone call from my manager and he was like, "You

1:43:19 > 1:43:23have got to did Do this track, remix it. I can hear you on it." We did it

1:43:23 > 1:43:30and once it was out, oh my god, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:43:30 > 1:43:31LAUGHTER What you couldn't believe the

1:43:31 > 1:43:36reaction either?No. Even getting the approval from Ed himself...Do

1:43:36 > 1:43:43you know what he thinks of it?Yeah. Yeah, before we put it out we got

1:43:43 > 1:43:48the nod from Ed and then I met him in person and he told me what he

1:43:48 > 1:43:52thought of it and yeah.And what does he think of it?He told me he

1:43:52 > 1:43:58was happy with it. He told me it was really good.Brilliant. You hit the

1:43:58 > 1:44:01charts with Rihanna, but it is not actually about Rihanna at all?No,

1:44:01 > 1:44:07not at all. Rihanna was a track that I used to kind of express my

1:44:07 > 1:44:10appreciation to hard-working women. So, yeah.

1:44:10 > 1:44:20Have you ever met her?No, I've never met Rihanna, but she,

1:44:20 > 1:44:25thankfully she used a Rihanna page on her make-up page.

1:44:25 > 1:44:29For those who want to learn more about you, how would you describe

1:44:29 > 1:44:37yourself?Very bubbly. I'm like pretty laid back. I'm hard-working.

1:44:37 > 1:44:42I'm authentic and honest.And how does your background feature in your

1:44:42 > 1:44:46music sthI grew up in Canning Town which is East London. Very

1:44:46 > 1:44:54multi-cultural. That had a great influence on my music because you

1:44:54 > 1:44:59meet people and you grow faster and it made me mature pretty fast and

1:44:59 > 1:45:03took a toll on my music as well. Next year, what should people look

1:45:03 > 1:45:07out for in terms of your work?We have got the tour coming up in

1:45:07 > 1:45:16March. I'm really excited to do that. I dropped a collaboration

1:45:16 > 1:45:23piece. Just more music. Bigger and better things, yeah. More music.

1:45:23 > 1:45:32You're performing tonight.Yes. I'll be performing a track which was in

1:45:32 > 1:45:36the top ten. Very excited to do that.Best of luck for tonight.

1:45:36 > 1:45:41Really enjoyed it and ride that wave, which you clearly are. Cheers,

1:45:41 > 1:45:41Yxng

1:45:41 > 1:45:56wave, which you clearly are. Cheers, Yxng. Yxng Bane, Mobos tonight.

1:45:56 > 1:46:00We've had messages from you about the Brexit divorce Bill. It's been

1:46:00 > 1:46:05insisted this is wrong but the government will meet its obligation.

1:46:05 > 1:46:10They have agreed to up the bill, the UK, to move negotiations on to trade

1:46:10 > 1:46:17talks. Let's talk to two i leave voters, David Burgess Joyce, retired

1:46:17 > 1:46:21police officer, and Andrew Swift, who voted to leave. Thank you for

1:46:21 > 1:46:25coming on the programme. David, what do you think of this figure? The

1:46:25 > 1:46:31size of this figure?It's a pretty large figure and I have to say I'm

1:46:31 > 1:46:41not one of those leave voters who say we should not hold to our

1:46:41 > 1:46:45obligations. What I have a concern about is we have an organisation

1:46:45 > 1:46:48like the EU that hasn't been audited for a long time and yet figure has

1:46:48 > 1:46:53been plucked out of the air. I'd be more comfortable, Victoria, if there

1:46:53 > 1:46:57was a figure of 32.6 million and we knew exactly what it was and what

1:46:57 > 1:47:04were paying for. As a police officer of many years, I think my concern is

1:47:04 > 1:47:08that this sounds like a ransom payment and as we all know in law

1:47:08 > 1:47:12enforcement, the first ransom is never necessarily the last.But we

1:47:12 > 1:47:17are being told the government has agreed to up its figure of 20

1:47:17 > 1:47:21billion, which was offered in that Florence speech by the Prime

1:47:21 > 1:47:27Minister.Indeed and I'm not privy, as we all aren't, to the match

1:47:27 > 1:47:31nations of what goes on behind those closed doors. I do expect there to

1:47:31 > 1:47:34be a figure and I don't think any realistic figure would think

1:47:34 > 1:47:38otherwise. I just think that it's almost like the analogy of going

1:47:38 > 1:47:43into an auction and the auctioneer says, I might bid £40 billion and

1:47:43 > 1:47:46then somebody put their hand up and says, let me know what it is an

1:47:46 > 1:47:50bidding for first? I genuinely feel as though I'd be more comfortable

1:47:50 > 1:47:55and I think the British people would be more comfortable, remainders or

1:47:55 > 1:47:59leave voters, if we knew what the pounds, shillings and pence was

1:47:59 > 1:48:01paying for. Pensions, I have no issue with that. Any commitments

1:48:01 > 1:48:07that we've given around infrastructure payments, again, I

1:48:07 > 1:48:13have no problems with that at all. You just want to know.Exactly, what

1:48:13 > 1:48:23the figure is.Andrew, do you agree? Why haven't we seen one yet?I don't

1:48:23 > 1:48:27think they can work out the bid that will be finalised until we go

1:48:27 > 1:48:32through it all. It's not anything that can be done in one quick

1:48:32 > 1:48:36e-mail. It's going to take several months if not years before not only

1:48:36 > 1:48:41do we get the figure, but exactly what the figure is paying for.Do

1:48:41 > 1:48:46you remember during the Leave campaign, the prominent leave

1:48:46 > 1:48:52leaders, telling you, look, we might need to pay up to 50 billion euros?

1:48:52 > 1:48:55It was absolutely obvious that there was going to be finalised bill. Just

1:48:55 > 1:49:00like when you sell and move house, it doesn't end at that point. There

1:49:00 > 1:49:06are bills to pay for what you've used, for the period of your

1:49:06 > 1:49:09membership. It would be inconceivable to think there is

1:49:09 > 1:49:13nothing to pay the day that we actually leave Europe. Again, coming

1:49:13 > 1:49:21back to your point, both sides, the Remain and the Leave campaign is

1:49:21 > 1:49:28cherry pick what they said.David, I wonder if you, now we are seeing the

1:49:28 > 1:49:33reality of the situation, that it will be a large sum, a sizeable sum,

1:49:33 > 1:49:36does that match what you think you were promised in the run-up to the

1:49:36 > 1:49:42EU referendum?Very similar to your other call it, we went promised

1:49:42 > 1:49:47anything. Leave and Remain were in the dark. The principles about

1:49:47 > 1:49:51leaving the EU were much more about the financial figure. What I am

1:49:51 > 1:49:55concerned about is that when we leave the EU, we are going as a

1:49:55 > 1:49:58country to have to negotiate some significance trade deals and it

1:49:58 > 1:50:03doesn't set a very good stance that we're good at negotiating if we give

1:50:03 > 1:50:07away on before we leave, a significant amount of money. It

1:50:07 > 1:50:11makes me feel that maybe any negotiations we have with America or

1:50:11 > 1:50:15China, they'll see us as a soft touch. That's a reputational issue

1:50:15 > 1:50:20for the country, which I have a real burn about.What about the trade

1:50:20 > 1:50:24deal, Andrew, that Britain is hoping to negotiate with the EU? If that

1:50:24 > 1:50:28isn't what we want, should the UK say, well, stuff your divorce Bill,

1:50:28 > 1:50:33we're not paying a thing? Absolutely. It works on both sides

1:50:33 > 1:50:37of the fence. If we had to pay tariffs to do business with them,

1:50:37 > 1:50:42they pay tariffs to do business with us. Victoria, there's nearly 200

1:50:42 > 1:50:46countries on the planet. The EU represents 27. I don't think that's

1:50:46 > 1:50:50going to be the problem. I don't think the finances, if I'm being

1:50:50 > 1:50:57honest, was the main reason for Brexit.Why did you vote for Brexit?

1:50:57 > 1:51:03It was immigration issues, is the main part. We are paying into the

1:51:03 > 1:51:09EU, I thought we would get a raw deal.David, why did you vote for

1:51:09 > 1:51:15Brexit?Mine was very simple. I wanted my country to take control of

1:51:15 > 1:51:20its own laws and I actually want my MPs, my politicians, to be held

1:51:20 > 1:51:24accountable by the British people. I don't feel that under an EU

1:51:24 > 1:51:27structure, whatever structure that would be, that we are actually able

1:51:27 > 1:51:30to vote them in. We vote every four or five years, but in reality were

1:51:30 > 1:51:35not voting for anybody because they are at the behest of anybody who's

1:51:35 > 1:51:40on election this year.I confess, I'm slightly surprised how calm you

1:51:40 > 1:51:48are about the size of this divorce Bill! It's such a lot of money!We

1:51:48 > 1:51:51have no guarantees, however, that that is the final figure.I don't

1:51:51 > 1:51:56think it will go lower, though, will it?I don't know, in fairness,

1:51:56 > 1:51:59Victoria. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes and in fans we

1:51:59 > 1:52:03don't know whether the EU and the British government have agreed that

1:52:03 > 1:52:06if this figure is paid we'll have tariff free. That might end up where

1:52:06 > 1:52:12we actually are a real benefit to the country. I genuinely don't know.

1:52:12 > 1:52:17If it is a £40 billion figure, I genuinely would like to know what

1:52:17 > 1:52:22exactly I've been paying for. That's what I want.Join the club. We'll

1:52:22 > 1:52:26see if that ever happens. Thank you, David. Andrew. Breezy at you coming

1:52:26 > 1:52:35on the programme. Two viewers who both voted Leave. They want an

1:52:35 > 1:52:37invoice and they are pretty calm about the money that's going to have

1:52:37 > 1:52:41to be paid to leave. The price worth paying.

1:52:41 > 1:52:44Being able to put food on the table is one of our most

1:52:44 > 1:52:46basic everyday needs, but there are concerns that

1:52:46 > 1:52:49an increasing number of households in the UK are facing food insecurity

1:52:49 > 1:52:52- that means people are struggling to get enough good quality,

1:52:52 > 1:52:53nutritious food to stay healthy.

1:52:53 > 1:52:56But it seems that MPs don't know how big the scale of the problem

1:52:56 > 1:52:59is because there's no official collection of statistics on how many

1:52:59 > 1:53:02people can't afford to eat, or worry about where their next meal

1:53:02 > 1:53:03is coming from.

1:53:03 > 1:53:03A bill will be read in the Commons later today aimed at establishing

1:53:07 > 1:53:11And then making her case to the Commons later today.

1:53:11 > 1:53:14Let's talk now to Emma Lewell-Buck - she's Labour's Minister

1:53:14 > 1:53:16for Children and Families and is raising the bill today.

1:53:16 > 1:53:18Dr Rachel Loopstra is a researcher on food insecurity

1:53:18 > 1:53:24and has collected data on food bank use.

1:53:24 > 1:53:31Hello, both of you. What is food insecurity, and?It's where people

1:53:31 > 1:53:34are unable to put food on the table, where they worry about where their

1:53:34 > 1:53:37next meal is coming from or how they're going to be able to afford

1:53:37 > 1:53:42to eat from one day to the next.How much food insecurity do we have in

1:53:42 > 1:53:46this country, would you say, from the work you've done, Rachel?The

1:53:46 > 1:53:51best figure we have comes from a survey in 2016 in England, Wales and

1:53:51 > 1:53:55Northern Ireland. There was a survey only of adults, and it estimated

1:53:55 > 1:53:59that 8% of adults were experiencing skipping meals because they didn't

1:53:59 > 1:54:03have enough food to eat, feeling hungry, being unable to eat and most

1:54:03 > 1:54:07severely going whole days without eating. An additional 13% said they

1:54:07 > 1:54:11worry about their food running out before they have money to buy more.

1:54:11 > 1:54:15What is it that you're introducing in the Commons today? Explain it in

1:54:15 > 1:54:18plain English so we can all understand what you're trying to do.

1:54:18 > 1:54:23It's very simple, really. Living costs and food survey across the

1:54:23 > 1:54:28whole of the UK done by the government. Those questions in that

1:54:28 > 1:54:31survey that can be removed and replaced with questions around food

1:54:31 > 1:54:36insecurity. It's about getting those questions into that survey.The

1:54:36 > 1:54:41purpose of that would be for what, ultimately?At the moment you have a

1:54:41 > 1:54:43lot of anecdotal evidence from charities with information from the

1:54:43 > 1:54:48United Nations in 2014 to see there's -- say there's eight Moline

1:54:48 > 1:54:51people who'd insecure in the UK but the government are hiding behind the

1:54:51 > 1:54:56lack of a robust measurement, so what I want to see in place...In

1:54:56 > 1:55:02what way are they hiding?They are refusing to introduce any robust

1:55:02 > 1:55:05measurement so you'll see, it's anecdotal or it's just this charity

1:55:05 > 1:55:09or it's not a representative sample. What I'm introducing is a way of

1:55:09 > 1:55:12getting a representative sample so we'll have a true picture for once

1:55:12 > 1:55:15and for all of the levels and hunger and food insecurity in the country.

1:55:15 > 1:55:20In order for you to achieve what you have just explained, what has to