19/12/2017

0:00:05 > 0:00:07Hello it's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

0:00:07 > 0:00:10welcome to the programme

0:00:10 > 0:00:14This morning: gas leaks, damp, holes in the floor

0:00:14 > 0:00:17and cracks in the walls.

0:00:17 > 0:00:19For some, their new-build homes have become "uninhabitable" less

0:00:19 > 0:00:22than a year after moving in.

0:00:22 > 0:00:24This, this has broken me, and I just can't believe how unlucky

0:00:24 > 0:00:28we've been to be in this position when it was supposed to be

0:00:28 > 0:00:35completely different to this.

0:00:35 > 0:00:41This programme has heard from people who bought from big-name builders,

0:00:41 > 0:00:43only to uncover numerous things wrong with the property,

0:00:43 > 0:00:44just weeks after they moved in.

0:00:44 > 0:00:47One expert says you've got more protection when you buy

0:00:47 > 0:00:48a toaster.

0:00:48 > 0:00:53We'll bring you the story in around 15 minutes' time.

0:00:53 > 0:00:55Also on the programme, the grandparents of a

0:00:55 > 0:00:58four-year-old girl from London, who went missing in May this year,

0:00:58 > 0:01:00plead for information that will lead to her safe return.

0:01:00 > 0:01:03The little girl, who celebrates her birthday today, is thought to be

0:01:03 > 0:01:06with her mother who a judge says "poses a real risk to

0:01:06 > 0:01:07the girl's safety".

0:01:07 > 0:01:09Please give us a ring.

0:01:09 > 0:01:12Let us hear Eliana's voice, let us hear that you're OK, both OK.

0:01:12 > 0:01:18And, you know, we need to talk. Let's have a meeting.

0:01:18 > 0:01:19That full interview before 11.

0:01:19 > 0:01:22And - sexting, online pornography, staying safe online,

0:01:22 > 0:01:24transgender issues - should these topics be included

0:01:24 > 0:01:26in new sex and relationship education guidelines

0:01:26 > 0:01:34for schools in England?

0:01:38 > 0:01:40Hello.

0:01:40 > 0:01:43Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11.

0:01:43 > 0:01:45Throughout the programme, we'll bring you the latest breaking news

0:01:45 > 0:01:49and developing stories.

0:01:49 > 0:01:52At around 10:15, we're expecting sentencing of 25-year-old

0:01:52 > 0:01:54Arthur Collins, found guilty of carrying out an acid attack

0:01:54 > 0:01:57in a London nightclub in April.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00He was convicted last month of five counts of grievous bodily harm

0:02:00 > 0:02:03with intent, and nine counts of actual bodily harm against 14

0:02:03 > 0:02:05people after throwing acid in the face of a man

0:02:05 > 0:02:12during an argument.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14We will bring that to you as soon as it happens.

0:02:14 > 0:02:17Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning.

0:02:17 > 0:02:20use the hashtag Victoria live and if you text, you will be charged

0:02:20 > 0:02:22at the standard network rate.

0:02:22 > 0:02:24Sexting and online pornography are not included in sex education

0:02:24 > 0:02:26lessons in schools in England, but should they be?

0:02:26 > 0:02:29The Department for Education is asking parents and young

0:02:29 > 0:02:31people for their opinions about what should be covered.

0:02:31 > 0:02:34The current guidelines have not been updated since 2000

0:02:34 > 0:02:37as Richard Galpin reports.

0:02:37 > 0:02:40What's different, and what's the same?

0:02:40 > 0:02:43The guidelines for teaching schoolchildren about relationships

0:02:43 > 0:02:46and sex have not changed since the turn of the century.

0:02:46 > 0:02:51And with lessons like this to be made compulsory in all of England's

0:02:51 > 0:02:55schools, an update is urgently needed, particularly given how much

0:02:55 > 0:03:00time many children now spend online.

0:03:00 > 0:03:07Here, there are new risks, like sexting, when images

0:03:07 > 0:03:10of children are posted on messaging apps.

0:03:10 > 0:03:12And there is cyber bullying, and the availability online

0:03:12 > 0:03:13of hard-core pornography.

0:03:13 > 0:03:17Often, young people do not necessarily know

0:03:17 > 0:03:19what is inappropriate in terms of behaviour and materials

0:03:19 > 0:03:23versus what is appropriate.

0:03:23 > 0:03:26They are confronted by so much stuff on the Internet.

0:03:26 > 0:03:29But they often don't even know what is illegal and what is legal

0:03:29 > 0:03:31in terms of what they are doing.

0:03:31 > 0:03:37It really is time we update guidance.

0:03:37 > 0:03:46The government wants pupils, teachers and

0:03:46 > 0:03:48parents to suggest how sex and relationship education

0:03:48 > 0:03:50could be updated to make it more relevant.

0:03:50 > 0:03:51There will be a vigorous debate.

0:03:51 > 0:03:55I'm a mother of two and I have been looking for sex education to be more

0:03:55 > 0:04:04about healthy relationships, like friendships,

0:04:04 > 0:04:06as you get older, more appropriate, getting your first

0:04:06 > 0:04:07boyfriend at the end of primary school,

0:04:07 > 0:04:11when people are starting to say "I'm going out with him," I want them

0:04:11 > 0:04:14and a girl or between a girl and a girl or a boy

0:04:14 > 0:04:15and a boy or whatever.

0:04:15 > 0:04:18At the end of this process, the government says its goal

0:04:18 > 0:04:20is to make sure young people learn the importance of healthy

0:04:20 > 0:04:21and stable relationships.

0:04:21 > 0:04:24Richard Galpin, BBC News.

0:04:24 > 0:04:29I know many parents watch the story. What do you want teachers to talk to

0:04:29 > 0:04:32your children about in school and what to be left up to you as their

0:04:32 > 0:04:34parent?

0:04:34 > 0:04:36Do get in touch throughout the morning.

0:04:36 > 0:04:38Ben Brown is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

0:04:38 > 0:04:44of the rest of the day's news.

0:04:44 > 0:04:47An investigation into the cause of a train crash in the US state of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50Washington is focusing on the speed of the train before it plunged off a

0:04:50 > 0:04:57bridge onto a motorway below. Three people were killed and about 70 were

0:04:57 > 0:05:00injured after the train travelling from Seattle to Portland derailed on

0:05:00 > 0:05:05a bend in the line. A member of the National Transportation Safety Board

0:05:05 > 0:05:10said it was too early to tell what caused the accident but she said

0:05:10 > 0:05:13there was evidence the train had been travelling too fast.

0:05:13 > 0:05:19The investigator in charge has obtained a download of the data

0:05:19 > 0:05:21recorder on the rear locomotive.

0:05:21 > 0:05:25Preliminary indications are that the train was travelling

0:05:25 > 0:05:31at 80 mph in a 30 mph track.

0:05:31 > 0:05:33The train was a 12-car train and it had a locomotive both

0:05:33 > 0:05:38in the front and back.

0:05:38 > 0:05:41Amtrak estimates that 80 passengers were on the train with three crew

0:05:41 > 0:05:47and two service personnel in the cafe car.

0:05:47 > 0:05:50The crew went on duty at 5am and the train departed

0:05:50 > 0:05:52at 6am this morning.

0:05:52 > 0:05:55There were two stops and the last stop was 18 miles

0:05:55 > 0:06:02prior to the accident.

0:06:02 > 0:06:06Four men from South Yorkshire and Derbyshire have been sas -- arrested

0:06:06 > 0:06:11on suspicion of terrorism offences. Three of the men, aged 22, 36 and

0:06:11 > 0:06:1541, were arrested at their homes in Sheffield. A fourth man aged 31 was

0:06:15 > 0:06:18arrested at an address in Chesterfield. All the men have been

0:06:18 > 0:06:23taken to a police station in west Yorkshire for questioning.

0:06:23 > 0:06:27The Royal Navy's new £3 billion pound Aircraft carrier,

0:06:27 > 0:06:32HMS Queen Elizabeth, is leaking.

0:06:32 > 0:06:36The Navy's Deuchar flagship has a problem with the propeller shaft. --

0:06:36 > 0:06:39future flagship.

0:06:39 > 0:06:40Our Defence Correspondent Jonathan Beale reports.

0:06:40 > 0:06:42Earlier this month, amid much fanfare, the Royal Navy's largest,

0:06:42 > 0:06:44most expensive warship was being commissioned into service

0:06:44 > 0:06:45by the Queen.

0:06:45 > 0:06:48I name this ship Queen Elizabeth.

0:06:48 > 0:06:50Hailed as the most powerful capable warship ever to raise

0:06:50 > 0:06:51the white ensign.

0:06:51 > 0:06:56But what the Navy did not say at the time was that she was leaking.

0:06:56 > 0:06:59According to the Sun newspaper, a fault with a seal around one

0:06:59 > 0:07:02of the ship's propeller shafts has left her taking on up to 200 litres

0:07:02 > 0:07:05of water every hour.

0:07:05 > 0:07:07The problem was first identified during her sea trials

0:07:07 > 0:07:09earlier this year.

0:07:09 > 0:07:12A Royal Navy spokesman insisted the fault was now scheduled

0:07:12 > 0:07:15for repair and that it would not prevent the 65,000-tonne warship

0:07:15 > 0:07:19from sailing again early in the New Year.

0:07:19 > 0:07:25It's not clear how easy or how much the repair will cost,

0:07:25 > 0:07:28but it's believed to be one of a number of snags that will have

0:07:28 > 0:07:29to be rectified by the contractors.

0:07:29 > 0:07:32The first F35 international delivery.

0:07:32 > 0:07:36Meanwhile, MPs have issued a warning about the cost of the new aircraft

0:07:36 > 0:07:39that will eventually fly off her.

0:07:39 > 0:07:43The Commons Defence Select Committee says there has been an unacceptable

0:07:43 > 0:07:46lack of transparency over the F35 jets, with one estimate that each

0:07:46 > 0:07:52plane will cost more than £150 million.

0:07:52 > 0:07:58The MoD insists the multi-billion pound programme is on track,

0:07:58 > 0:07:59on time and within budget.

0:07:59 > 0:08:03Jonathan Beale, BBC News.

0:08:03 > 0:08:06The government is to outline measures to tackle "race bias"

0:08:06 > 0:08:11in the criminal justice system in England and Wales.

0:08:11 > 0:08:14It follows a report from the Labour MP David Lammy which found

0:08:14 > 0:08:15the system discriminated against people from ethnic

0:08:15 > 0:08:18minority backgrounds.

0:08:18 > 0:08:21The Justice Secretary David Lidington says work will be

0:08:21 > 0:08:24done on each of Mr Lammy's 35 recommendations, but it's understood

0:08:24 > 0:08:27a proposal aimed at boosting ethnic diversity among the judiciary has

0:08:27 > 0:08:35not been accepted.

0:08:35 > 0:08:39The grandparents a four girl who has been missing since May have appealed

0:08:39 > 0:08:45for help in finding her. Eliana Shand, who celebrates her birthday

0:08:45 > 0:08:48today, went missing from home in the summer. Her grandparents appeal

0:08:48 > 0:08:51comes after evidence suggest is travelling with her mother, who has

0:08:51 > 0:08:56schizophrenia. We will have more on that story at around 10:30am when we

0:08:56 > 0:09:02will be hearing from Eliana's Rob Ehrens when they explain why they

0:09:02 > 0:09:07have gone public with their appeal for help. -- Eliana's grandparents.

0:09:07 > 0:09:09There are calls for greater protection for home-buyers

0:09:09 > 0:09:11amid growing concerns about the quality of

0:09:11 > 0:09:12some new build homes.

0:09:12 > 0:09:15This programme has heard from people who bought properties from major

0:09:15 > 0:09:16builders and then experienced serious problems shortly

0:09:16 > 0:09:17after moving in.

0:09:17 > 0:09:21Campaigners say that in such cases buyers often find they are powerless

0:09:21 > 0:09:23to insist that builders correct the faults.

0:09:23 > 0:09:29Inmates at Liverpool Prison are being kept in the worst living

0:09:29 > 0:09:31conditions inspectors have ever seen, according to a leaked

0:09:31 > 0:09:32report seen by the BBC.

0:09:32 > 0:09:34Inspectors found rats, cockroaches, and exposed wiring when they made

0:09:34 > 0:09:40an unannounced visit to the prison.

0:09:40 > 0:09:42A lack of leadership at all levels, including central government,

0:09:42 > 0:09:52was identified as the prime cause of the problems.

0:09:53 > 0:09:58The Ministry of Justice said it did not comment on leaked documents.

0:09:58 > 0:10:01The health regulator is warning that the NHS workforce is that crunch

0:10:01 > 0:10:05point and is calling on the government to act. The Department of

0:10:05 > 0:10:08Health in England says the NHS currently has a record number of

0:10:08 > 0:10:12doctors and is expanding the number of training places by 25% but the

0:10:12 > 0:10:16General medical Council says the supply of new doctors is failing to

0:10:16 > 0:10:20keep pace with demand and warns the service could suffer increasing

0:10:20 > 0:10:27pressure over the next 20 years. There are fears Toys R Us could

0:10:27 > 0:10:32collapse after it was told to put £9 million into its pension fund. It

0:10:32 > 0:10:35has to come up with the money by Thursday in order for the pension

0:10:35 > 0:10:39protection fund to agree to the retailer's restructuring plan.

0:10:39 > 0:10:44Earlier this month, Toys R Us said it would close at least 26 UK

0:10:44 > 0:10:48stores, leading to the loss of up to 800 jobs. Failure to agree a deal

0:10:48 > 0:10:53could put all of its 3200 staff at risk of redundancy. That is a

0:10:53 > 0:11:00summary of the latest news. More from me at half was nine. Already

0:11:00 > 0:11:04many e-mails from you about buying a new home and buy new I mean newly

0:11:04 > 0:11:06built and having problems pretty much as soon as you moved in. Juliet

0:11:06 > 0:11:11says," bought a new home listed on being as one of the most extensive

0:11:11 > 0:11:13estate in England, the company have refused to repair 91 's nagging

0:11:13 > 0:11:19problems. The gate collapsed and a Coke bottle was found inside a

0:11:19 > 0:11:19pillar"

0:11:19 > 0:11:22Coke bottle was found inside a pillar". Paul said, "I purchased a

0:11:22 > 0:11:25new home last December and have had multiple problems, mainly drainage.

0:11:25 > 0:11:31My garden is constantly flooded". Heidi says on Facebook, "People must

0:11:31 > 0:11:34be ready and educated if they think buying a new house me that is

0:11:34 > 0:11:38problem free, that is why they come with a 10-year warranty for snagging

0:11:38 > 0:11:41any problems as the house settles in. Old homes have been lived

0:11:41 > 0:11:46breathed in and have bedded in, it is pretty obvious". You would think

0:11:46 > 0:11:49so, that a two-year guarantee from the builders, developers and a

0:11:49 > 0:11:5110-year warranty from the National house-building Council would sort

0:11:51 > 0:11:56you out but not so. Our film will show that in the next few minutes.

0:11:56 > 0:11:59Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

0:11:59 > 0:12:02use the hashtag Victoria live and if you text, you will be charged

0:12:02 > 0:12:03at the standard network rate.

0:12:03 > 0:12:06Let's get some sport.

0:12:06 > 0:12:10Holly is able to new allegations about the world of athletics on the

0:12:10 > 0:12:14Daily Telegraph.That's right, it has come from a Daily Telegraph

0:12:14 > 0:12:18investigation which apparently sent undercover reporters do world

0:12:18 > 0:12:22champion sprinter Justin Gatlin's camp. We've heard that name before.

0:12:22 > 0:12:26They posed as representatives from a film company who were looking for a

0:12:26 > 0:12:31coach to train their actor to look like an athlete. They have said they

0:12:31 > 0:12:36filled Justin Gatlin's coach, Dennis Mitchell, and his occasional

0:12:36 > 0:12:39representative, Robert Wagner, and found they were openly talking about

0:12:39 > 0:12:44how they could octane performance enhancing drugs and even allegedly

0:12:44 > 0:12:48told reporters athletes can get away with doping because the drugs they

0:12:48 > 0:12:53use cannot be detected by tests. Both have denied the allegations and

0:12:53 > 0:12:57the athletics integrity unit set up by the world governing body, the

0:12:57 > 0:13:00IAAF, and the US anti-doping agency, said they had opened an

0:13:00 > 0:13:06investigation into the claims and the IAAF president Lord Coe has said

0:13:06 > 0:13:09the allegations are extremely serious and he knows the Independent

0:13:09 > 0:13:12athletics integrity unit will investigate in accordance with its

0:13:12 > 0:13:18mandate. Very serious allegation this morning.What has Justin Gatlin

0:13:18 > 0:13:21said?He responded on Instagram with the statement in which he said he

0:13:21 > 0:13:26has already fired Mitchell, as soon as he found out about it. He says he

0:13:26 > 0:13:30is not using and has not used performance enhancing drugs and that

0:13:30 > 0:13:33all legal options are on the table as he will not allow others to lie

0:13:33 > 0:13:40about him like this. This is a man with five Olympic medals, the fifth

0:13:40 > 0:13:44fastest ever 100 metres time and he was the man who beat Usain Bolt in

0:13:44 > 0:13:49his farewell race earlier this year. It does feel as though we spend more

0:13:49 > 0:13:52time talking about his various doping bans than his achievements on

0:13:52 > 0:13:57the track. He's been suspended for doping twice in the past, first in

0:13:57 > 0:14:012001 when he was competing for the University of Tennessee and in 2006

0:14:01 > 0:14:04he was cited for testing positive for a banned substance and received

0:14:04 > 0:14:09a four year ban. The fact he has immediately sacked as coach, Dennis

0:14:09 > 0:14:13Mitchell, is not surprising at this stage, he will be doing everything

0:14:13 > 0:14:18in his power to distance himself from the allegations.In the Premier

0:14:18 > 0:14:21League, Everton are doing really well now.Six games unbeaten since

0:14:21 > 0:14:28Sam Allardyce took over, less than three weeks ago. A win over Swansea

0:14:28 > 0:14:32city last night moves Everton up to ninth place in the table, hugely

0:14:32 > 0:14:37impressive considering that at one stage, Everton fans had visions of a

0:14:37 > 0:14:40relegation scrap on their minds and now they are six points off Spurs

0:14:40 > 0:14:43and they have a big home game against Chelsea this weekend. The

0:14:43 > 0:14:47manager already has visions of peering into the upper reaches of

0:14:47 > 0:14:56the league.We have got to try and get a result against Chelsea, then

0:14:56 > 0:15:03we will really know what we are made of. With this confidence, if we can

0:15:03 > 0:15:07go and get a result against Chelsea on Saturday, then we are really,

0:15:07 > 0:15:10really going on the right track for finishing in the top half as high as

0:15:10 > 0:15:18we can. Let's C of the lads can pull it out of the bag.May be getting

0:15:18 > 0:15:21ahead of himself but you can't blame him when you compare this to some of

0:15:21 > 0:15:25the rescue jobs he had to perform in the past, at Sunderland and Crystal

0:15:25 > 0:15:29Palace, an impressive run so far so let's see if it can continue.Thank

0:15:29 > 0:15:30you for joining us.

0:15:32 > 0:15:35Gas leaks, damp, holes in the floor and cracks in the walls -

0:15:35 > 0:15:38not things you'd expect to experience when moving

0:15:38 > 0:15:40into a brand new home.

0:15:40 > 0:15:42But this programme has heard from people who bought

0:15:42 > 0:15:45from big name builders - only to uncover hundreds of things

0:15:45 > 0:15:48wrong with the property - just weeks after they moved in.

0:15:48 > 0:15:53Some even discovered major structural defects.

0:15:53 > 0:15:56Campaigners say that when people do experience issues,

0:15:56 > 0:15:59they can find themselves powerless to force the builder

0:15:59 > 0:16:02to get things put right - and warn that the quality

0:16:02 > 0:16:05and workmanship of homes being built has drastically dropped -

0:16:05 > 0:16:08in some cases to shocking levels.

0:16:08 > 0:16:11Emma Ailes has this exclusive report.

0:16:16 > 0:16:21Many of us dream of owning our own home, a place to start a family

0:16:21 > 0:16:25and live happily ever after.

0:16:25 > 0:16:30With housing demand high and supply low, the Government is pushing

0:16:30 > 0:16:34developers to build new homes fast.

0:16:34 > 0:16:38But in the rush to construct, are standards slipping?

0:16:38 > 0:16:42Ten months in and we have these cracks and various other major

0:16:42 > 0:16:45issues on a brand-new house.

0:16:45 > 0:16:48Some buyers find their dream home quickly turns into a nightmare.

0:16:48 > 0:16:55Some of the mistakes, if you can call them

0:16:55 > 0:16:57that, are horrendous.

0:16:57 > 0:17:07And the biggest purchase they will ever make starts to crumble.

0:17:10 > 0:17:14Britain is in the midst of a housing crisis,

0:17:14 > 0:17:18not enough homes and many people priced out.

0:17:18 > 0:17:21The Government has promised to build 300,000 new homes a year,

0:17:21 > 0:17:24an ambitious target.

0:17:24 > 0:17:26That's more than 800 new homes every day.

0:17:26 > 0:17:31And it's spending billions in tax payers' money to make that happen,

0:17:31 > 0:17:33with schemes like Help To Buy and financial incentives

0:17:33 > 0:17:36for developers.

0:17:36 > 0:17:39The market is dominated by a handful of big-name builders,

0:17:39 > 0:17:44all of whom claim to guarantee buyers quality and peace of mind.

0:17:45 > 0:17:48Stylish, practical and characterful four bedroom home, built

0:17:48 > 0:17:52to the highest of standards.

0:17:52 > 0:17:56But the reality for Karen Stacey Pope was very different.

0:17:56 > 0:17:59She bought a Bovis home help to buy scheme.

0:17:59 > 0:18:03The problems started as soon as she moved in.

0:18:03 > 0:18:05There was a gap underneath the door and the door frame.

0:18:05 > 0:18:10We pulled the carpet back, pulled the underlay back

0:18:10 > 0:18:12and uncovered the hole.

0:18:12 > 0:18:15It's fairly deep, about two foot down.

0:18:15 > 0:18:20Slugs, worms, beetles, spiders...

0:18:20 > 0:18:23and they have their own personal

0:18:23 > 0:18:27entrance and exit route to our house.

0:18:27 > 0:18:32Thanks to this added extra from Bovis.

0:18:32 > 0:18:35We had a leak on Sunday that's just drenched the walls and ceiling.

0:18:35 > 0:18:37Nothing's been fixed and we are just left

0:18:37 > 0:18:39with a hole in the ceiling.

0:18:39 > 0:18:42There was a lot of mortar missing from around this area.

0:18:42 > 0:18:46They've actually filled some of it in.

0:18:46 > 0:18:50There's a big chunk missing there.

0:18:50 > 0:18:52How did they not put it in?

0:18:52 > 0:18:57We've got cracks running down and it seems to be cracking

0:18:57 > 0:19:06from up by the roof.

0:19:06 > 0:19:08This crack was here pretty much from when we moved in.

0:19:08 > 0:19:11There must be some kind of movement going on if we are

0:19:11 > 0:19:12getting more and more.

0:19:12 > 0:19:14No, I'm not crying, although I am cross.

0:19:14 > 0:19:16And Karen's problems didn't stop there.

0:19:16 > 0:19:19The wrong porch was built on, air bricks meant to stop the house

0:19:19 > 0:19:21getting damp and rotten were buried underground.

0:19:21 > 0:19:23Her driveway is sinking.

0:19:23 > 0:19:25The list goes on.

0:19:25 > 0:19:32After numerous complaints to Bovis, Karen eventually hired

0:19:32 > 0:19:33an independent surveyor.

0:19:33 > 0:19:35He uncovered major structural issues.

0:19:35 > 0:19:39Movement joints which stop the house cracking up if the land shifts had

0:19:39 > 0:19:40been completely forgotten.

0:19:40 > 0:19:41He concluded...

0:19:41 > 0:19:43The building cannot be judged to be currently fit for habitation.

0:19:43 > 0:19:47Many of the concerns raised issues of health,

0:19:47 > 0:19:51leaving many of the areas of the property and its site unsafe to use.

0:19:51 > 0:19:55And he questioned how inspectors could ever have signed it off.

0:19:55 > 0:19:58We pushed and pushed ourselves to the absolute

0:19:58 > 0:20:02limit to get this house, and now we are in this

0:20:02 > 0:20:05position where - one - it's not saleable, and two,

0:20:05 > 0:20:09we've been told it's not

0:20:09 > 0:20:12inhabitable either so we've lost everything.

0:20:12 > 0:20:18It is just heartbreaking because we can't even fight any more

0:20:18 > 0:20:23because we've run out of energy, we run out of money,

0:20:23 > 0:20:25we cannot do anything any more.

0:20:25 > 0:20:28We are just stuck here.

0:20:28 > 0:20:30We've got no choice but to be stuck here.

0:20:30 > 0:20:33Sorry.

0:20:33 > 0:20:35Bovis told us:

0:20:50 > 0:20:55The company said it had made significant

0:20:55 > 0:20:59changes to how it operates, including reducing the number

0:20:59 > 0:21:02of homes it planned to build, and it said it was working

0:21:02 > 0:21:04with Karen and was determined to deliver a quality home.

0:21:04 > 0:21:06But Karen is not alone.

0:21:06 > 0:21:08We spoke to buyers who bought from various big builders.

0:21:08 > 0:21:12Some had experienced hundreds of small defects,

0:21:12 > 0:21:14known in the industry as snags.

0:21:14 > 0:21:17Others had more serious problems.

0:21:17 > 0:21:20They told us of unfinished roofs, badly fitted windows and doors,

0:21:20 > 0:21:24toilets overflowing with sewage, flooding, damp and mold,

0:21:24 > 0:21:26wonky walls and stairs, sloping floors, gas leaks,

0:21:26 > 0:21:31cracks and, like Karen, holes on the floor.

0:21:31 > 0:21:35One man described coming home to a maggot and fly infestation

0:21:35 > 0:21:39and all just months after moving in.

0:21:39 > 0:21:43The quality of workmanship is getting worse in the industry

0:21:43 > 0:21:46and the only one word answer to how it is, is atrocious.

0:21:46 > 0:21:50How people can walk away and give someone the keys to their home

0:21:50 > 0:21:55when there's a great big hole in the wall or the porch roof isn't

0:21:55 > 0:21:59finished or something, I don't understand.

0:21:59 > 0:22:01I don't know how they can go home and sleep nights

0:22:01 > 0:22:02doing that to people.

0:22:02 > 0:22:04It's just not right.

0:22:04 > 0:22:08From the chief executive in the boardroom to the man on-site

0:22:08 > 0:22:11sweeping up after the trades, no one cares and no one

0:22:11 > 0:22:14in the process is really thoroughly checking that the quality

0:22:14 > 0:22:18is going to be there and the buildings and houses comply

0:22:18 > 0:22:20with current building regulations and warranty standards.

0:22:20 > 0:22:25Indeed a survey by the House Builders Federation suggests

0:22:25 > 0:22:27problems with new homes are not a possibility, they are

0:22:27 > 0:22:29almost a certainty.

0:22:29 > 0:22:3298% of buyers reported defects to their builder within a few

0:22:32 > 0:22:35months of moving in.

0:22:35 > 0:22:4041% reported more than ten problems.

0:22:40 > 0:22:44And when people do have issues, they can find themselves powerless

0:22:44 > 0:22:45to get things put right.

0:22:45 > 0:22:49At the moment it feels like buyers are buying a promise that they see

0:22:49 > 0:22:53in advertising which is unrealistic.

0:22:53 > 0:22:56And then if their new house doesn't live up to those unrealistic

0:22:56 > 0:22:59expectations, they have very little recourse other than trying to get

0:22:59 > 0:23:03those things changed through the house-builder

0:23:03 > 0:23:05themselves.

0:23:05 > 0:23:11The arbitration service that's offered by some

0:23:11 > 0:23:14of the house-building insurance companies can be very

0:23:14 > 0:23:18difficult to navigate, and so many people find actually

0:23:18 > 0:23:20getting their MP involved at the moment is the only

0:23:20 > 0:23:23option they've got.

0:23:23 > 0:23:28I think it's shocking for many people who buy a new house

0:23:28 > 0:23:31to realise the dream they have been promised isn't the reality

0:23:31 > 0:23:32they experience.

0:23:32 > 0:23:36The horrors faced by some new homeowners was the subject

0:23:36 > 0:23:39of an inquiry by a group of MPs last year.

0:23:39 > 0:23:43It concluded that there are too many reports of new homes that are simply

0:23:43 > 0:23:47uninhabitable and inspections are not always up to scratch.

0:23:47 > 0:23:51It called for a new homes ombudsmen to be set up,

0:23:51 > 0:23:54saying current means of redress are inadequate.

0:23:54 > 0:23:57Campaigners go so far as to say that, as things stand,

0:23:57 > 0:24:00there's more consumer protection buying a toaster than a new home.

0:24:00 > 0:24:04You wouldn't buy a car with a wheel missing and then expect to put it

0:24:04 > 0:24:05on once it's been sitting in someone's driveway.

0:24:05 > 0:24:10It's a silly analogy but that's what people expect to put up with.

0:24:10 > 0:24:14The industry manages customers' expectations downwards.

0:24:14 > 0:24:16They actually say it's impossible to build a perfect

0:24:16 > 0:24:17house, and it's not.

0:24:17 > 0:24:19It's a real David and Goliath issue.

0:24:19 > 0:24:22The only redress they've got is to go through the courts.

0:24:22 > 0:24:25Buyers who go to court will run out of money long before

0:24:25 > 0:24:26the house builders ever will.

0:24:26 > 0:24:31New homes are guaranteed by the builder for two years.

0:24:31 > 0:24:33Most also come with a 10-year warranty issued by the National

0:24:33 > 0:24:34House-building Council.

0:24:34 > 0:24:38The same body also inspects and signs off finished homes.

0:24:38 > 0:24:42However it's faced criticism from some MPs and campaigners,

0:24:42 > 0:24:46who say it's too cosy with developers - a claim it denies.

0:24:46 > 0:24:50Some in the industry acknowledge it might be time for a new approach.

0:24:50 > 0:24:53The housing market is dominated by the major house-builders,

0:24:53 > 0:24:56they are under pressure.

0:24:56 > 0:24:58Maybe the standards aren't up to the required level

0:24:58 > 0:25:01because of the growing skills shortage and the pressure to build,

0:25:01 > 0:25:05but that's not acceptable from the consumers' point of view.

0:25:05 > 0:25:09We need to ensure as an industry we are providing quality homes that

0:25:09 > 0:25:11consumers can expect are fit for purpose.

0:25:11 > 0:25:15They are investing all their money in the biggest purchase

0:25:15 > 0:25:17of their life and it's not fit for purpose.

0:25:17 > 0:25:24We, as an industry, need to look at ourselves and say how

0:25:24 > 0:25:26can we improve that?

0:25:26 > 0:25:29That could be a range of improving the consumer codes for new homes

0:25:29 > 0:25:32or it could be looking at a national ombudsmen to address those problems

0:25:32 > 0:25:34that consumers can go to.

0:25:34 > 0:25:38But for Karen and others like her, any such changes will come too late.

0:25:38 > 0:25:41The strain of trying to get her home put right has already

0:25:41 > 0:25:44taken a massive toll.

0:25:44 > 0:25:46I am a strong person, believe it or not!

0:25:46 > 0:25:49I know I don't look like one now, but I am.

0:25:49 > 0:25:54And this, this has broken me, and I just can't believe how unlucky

0:25:54 > 0:25:57we have been to be in this position when it was supposed to be

0:25:57 > 0:26:05completely different.

0:26:05 > 0:26:10And you can read much more about that on the bbc news site -

0:26:10 > 0:26:15it's currently the No 1 story on there.

0:26:15 > 0:26:18We can speak now to Jo Churchill, a Conservative MP who is leading

0:26:18 > 0:26:21a group of MP from all parties to look at the issue

0:26:21 > 0:26:24of the quality of new homes - and how buyers could be better

0:26:24 > 0:26:25protected when things go wrong.

0:26:25 > 0:26:28We have so many messages already from people experiencing the same,

0:26:28 > 0:26:32as you saw in our film. Your reaction first of all to what we

0:26:32 > 0:26:37have uncovered?Just enormous sympathy for Karen because it was

0:26:37 > 0:26:41the gentleman who said he'd been in the industry for 35 years, David and

0:26:41 > 0:26:46Goliath. That's her home, it's your biggest purchase you ever make and

0:26:46 > 0:26:55yet, looking at it, you have less protection than a toaster. I used a

0:26:55 > 0:27:00kettle, car, small purchases as example, you know where to go to get

0:27:00 > 0:27:03redress. With house-building and your home, people want to understand

0:27:03 > 0:27:07if there is a problem and, as we saw from the figures, there are a lot of

0:27:07 > 0:27:13problems, how they get them sorted. How is it that inspectors are saying

0:27:13 > 0:27:16these homes are safe, they're structurally sound and signing them

0:27:16 > 0:27:22off?I think what you have is a problem whereby quality isn't

0:27:22 > 0:27:26naturally built into the system as it's currently working...And

0:27:26 > 0:27:31that's, if you're an inspector, that is your job?I think you have a

0:27:31 > 0:27:33problem where they inspect at various points through the build.

0:27:33 > 0:27:38It's one of the things from the last report that we did. We were actually

0:27:38 > 0:27:42saying, along with looking at a single ombudsman, because we know

0:27:42 > 0:27:45that redress is easier for people, if they only have one place to go,

0:27:45 > 0:27:49because at the moment the landscape's quite confusing and

0:27:49 > 0:27:55there's gaps between the four different Ombudsman and so on. It's

0:27:55 > 0:28:00also, people actually need to feel confidence I think in the system.Do

0:28:00 > 0:28:05you think developers and inspectors are too cosy?If I'm honest, yes, I

0:28:05 > 0:28:12do. At the moment, we have a system whereby, not necessarily the

0:28:12 > 0:28:16inspectors, but the builders and the warranty system, it's not clear to

0:28:16 > 0:28:20the consumer what they get, what they're covered for. When you

0:28:20 > 0:28:25purchase the biggest purchase of your life - I mean Karen paid

0:28:25 > 0:28:30£325,000. The average house price last month was somewhere around

0:28:30 > 0:28:35£223,000. You should be able to sign on the dotted line and actually get

0:28:35 > 0:28:41a home that's fit for purpose.Many many of these new cases, the new

0:28:41 > 0:28:45builds, there is a two-year guarantee from the developers, a

0:28:45 > 0:28:47ten-year warranty from the national house building council. You talk

0:28:47 > 0:28:51about there being a national ombudsman, so it should be

0:28:51 > 0:28:54straightforward for the home enner to say, there's a problem here, here

0:28:54 > 0:29:00is the guaranty and the warranty, sort it.You would think so. That is

0:29:00 > 0:29:05the problem with the system. Once you have reported your fault, how

0:29:05 > 0:29:10long for them to sort it out. Karen's been sat there since 2016.

0:29:10 > 0:29:14She still has these problems. It's Christmas next week. She wants her

0:29:14 > 0:29:20home to be as she wants it. I have a post bag full of people writing

0:29:20 > 0:29:25saying they can't live in their home as they want to and it's not fair.

0:29:25 > 0:29:34So after the two years, the NHBC guaranty clicks in, but that's for

0:29:34 > 0:29:41major structural defects -- guarantee.Your Government is

0:29:41 > 0:29:43vigorously encouraging house-builders, develops, to build

0:29:43 > 0:29:47more, it's not necessarily kicking in yet but that's your mission.Yes.

0:29:47 > 0:29:50Do you take any responsibility for this rush to build and potential

0:29:50 > 0:29:54problems people are experiencing?I think there's been a problem in the

0:29:54 > 0:29:59industry for a long time so no. As we have seen an increase in

0:29:59 > 0:30:04house-building, as the numbers have actually homes delivered goes up,

0:30:04 > 0:30:10the quality, the number of problems is also rising. It shouldn't be an

0:30:10 > 0:30:16either or. A new home or a quality new home. It should be a given. As

0:30:16 > 0:30:20we are delivering more homes, people should be assured of the quality and

0:30:20 > 0:30:25that is what we want for them.Some of the messages, the quality, it's a

0:30:25 > 0:30:33shocker, it's almost unbelievable.I know.Cam says, I bought a house

0:30:33 > 0:30:36from a developer 11 years ago, it was cold in parts where it shouldn't

0:30:36 > 0:30:40have been, the builders left gaping holes in the bathroom and kitchen

0:30:40 > 0:30:43and hoped I wouldn't notice because the kitchen units and bath covered

0:30:43 > 0:30:47them. What made this worse is that the floor was supposed to be fire

0:30:47 > 0:30:50proof, as there are garages underneath. If a fair occurred in

0:30:50 > 0:30:55the dwa Raj, the smoke would have penetrated into the bedroom. This

0:30:55 > 0:31:00was subsequently remedied. It also turned out they forgot to insulate

0:31:00 > 0:31:07some of the cavities. -- garage. The plumbing waste pipe went upwards. 11

0:31:07 > 0:31:11years on the house is still cold and my bills for a one-bedroomed coach

0:31:11 > 0:31:17house are the same for a three-bedroomed house. The NHBC

0:31:17 > 0:31:20guarantee is supposed to protect you when a regional manager suggests you

0:31:20 > 0:31:25put a curtain up to block out the cold for a new build, that kind of

0:31:25 > 0:31:31sums up how unprotected the consumer is.

0:31:31 > 0:31:34If we had a national ombudsman, which is something you are pushing

0:31:34 > 0:31:39for. We already have the Housing ombudsman, the property ombudsman,

0:31:39 > 0:31:42the property redress scheme, what difference would a national

0:31:42 > 0:31:46ombudsman make.You have got four schemes and you still have gaps and

0:31:46 > 0:31:52people fall through the system. We want a single point of contact for

0:31:52 > 0:31:55redress would would give people the ability to understand where they can

0:31:55 > 0:31:59go to get the problem sorted but actually, what you are pointing out

0:31:59 > 0:32:02is the system is deeper than that, we should be looking for clerk of

0:32:02 > 0:32:08Works and people who can inspect buildings properly as we go through.

0:32:08 > 0:32:10Arguably, people, when they sign on the dotted lines are the biggest

0:32:10 > 0:32:15purchase of their lives, their home, have that guarantee of quality and

0:32:15 > 0:32:20consumer protection.Greg, "My new-build house was a plumbing

0:32:20 > 0:32:24disaster, dirty water coming out of the taps, Bath pipework was not tied

0:32:24 > 0:32:27and so the Bath leaked into the living room, plasterboard smashed,

0:32:27 > 0:32:31not cut, to make a hole for the exit pipe to the dirty bath water, the

0:32:31 > 0:32:35bathroom toilet not installed directly so the coupling came loose

0:32:35 > 0:32:39and foul water came to the living room, the fault was hidden inside a

0:32:39 > 0:32:43plasterboard box, it cost me over £500 in an insured losses and the

0:32:43 > 0:32:46builder eventually medical division towards my costs, the latest

0:32:46 > 0:32:50disaster was that the ensuite toilet leaked, flooding the ensuite and

0:32:50 > 0:32:55staining part of the bedroom carpet". Paul has e-mail and sent

0:32:55 > 0:32:58photographs, "We bought a new flat in 2015 and have since had problems

0:32:58 > 0:33:00with the garden, which is flooded"

0:33:00 > 0:33:02in 2015 and have since had problems with the garden, which is flooded".

0:33:02 > 0:33:06As you can see. "It Is impossible to step onto the garden and they have

0:33:06 > 0:33:11been unwilling to solve the problem".It's not fair.No,

0:33:11 > 0:33:15absolutely an understatement but you are right. Don says, "I find it

0:33:15 > 0:33:20amazing that when you buy new car that costs £20,000, you get a three

0:33:20 > 0:33:25or a five-year warranty yet with the new, £200,000 plus ask you get one

0:33:25 > 0:33:27or two-year warranty which is probably not worth the paper it's

0:33:27 > 0:33:33written on".That is why we are calling for the inquiry, there is

0:33:33 > 0:33:37clearly stuff to do from everybody, from the house-builders, to ensure

0:33:37 > 0:33:40they put their own house in order and that we get some independence

0:33:40 > 0:33:43and clarity in the system to begin to protect people.Thank you for

0:33:43 > 0:33:50joining us. Your own experiences welcome, of course, I have many more

0:33:50 > 0:33:56messages like that which I could read throughout the programme.

0:33:56 > 0:33:59Time to get the latest news with Ben.

0:33:59 > 0:34:02Parents, teachers and young people in England are being asked to

0:34:02 > 0:34:08suggest what should be included in new guidelines for teaching children

0:34:08 > 0:34:11about sex and relationships. The current guidelines have not been

0:34:11 > 0:34:15updated since 2000 and do not address issues like sexting at

0:34:15 > 0:34:20online pornography. Ministers say it is an and want new guidance for

0:34:20 > 0:34:26autumn 2019. Four men from South Yorkshire and Derbyshire have been

0:34:26 > 0:34:31arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences. Three of the men, aged 22,

0:34:31 > 0:34:3536 and 41, were arrested at their homes in Sheffield. A fourth man

0:34:35 > 0:34:39aged 31 was arrested at an address in Chesterfield. All the men have

0:34:39 > 0:34:44been taken to a police station in west Yorkshire for questioning.

0:34:44 > 0:34:48Investigators say a train which crashed in the US state of

0:34:48 > 0:34:52Washington, killing three people, was travelling at 80 mph in a 30 mph

0:34:52 > 0:34:58zone. Around 70 people were injured, ten seriously, when the train

0:34:58 > 0:35:06plunged off a bridge onto a motorway below. The Royal Navy's new £3

0:35:06 > 0:35:10billion aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth, is leaking. The Navy's

0:35:10 > 0:35:12future flagship, which was commissioned by the Queen less than

0:35:12 > 0:35:17two weeks ago, is a problem with one of its propeller shafts. The fault

0:35:17 > 0:35:21was first identified during sea trials. A spokesman said the

0:35:21 > 0:35:24aircraft carrier is scheduled for repair and will be sailing again

0:35:24 > 0:35:29early in the New Year. The government is outlining measures

0:35:29 > 0:35:33to tackle race bias in the criminal justice system in England and Wales

0:35:33 > 0:35:36following a report from Labour MP David Lammy which found that the

0:35:36 > 0:35:41system discriminates against people from ethnic minority backgrounds.

0:35:41 > 0:35:44The Justice Secretary David Lidington says work will be done on

0:35:44 > 0:35:48each of Mr Lambie's 35 recommendations, but it is

0:35:48 > 0:35:52understood that a proposal aimed at boosting ethnic diversity among the

0:35:52 > 0:35:55judiciary has not been accepted.

0:35:55 > 0:36:00That is the latest BBC News. More from me a bit later.

0:36:00 > 0:36:04Holly has the sport. We will look ahead to the response

0:36:04 > 0:36:07from world champion sprinter Justin Gatlin after those doping

0:36:07 > 0:36:11allegations made against his coach and agent. An investigation is

0:36:11 > 0:36:15currently underway after the Daily Telegraph said undercover reporters

0:36:15 > 0:36:19were offered performance enhancing drugs by Dennis Mitchell and Robert

0:36:19 > 0:36:24Wagner. Both deny the allegations. Sam Allardyce has his eyes on the

0:36:24 > 0:36:27prize top half finish in the Premier League after former strugglers

0:36:27 > 0:36:33Everton beat Swansea 3-1, their fourth win in five games. West Ham

0:36:33 > 0:36:36could be without midfielder Manuel Lanzini for tonight's Carabao Cup

0:36:36 > 0:36:39quarterfinal with Arsenal after he was charged with diving in

0:36:39 > 0:36:45Saturday's game against Stoke. More on all those stories at 10am.

0:36:45 > 0:36:46Thank you.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50Sexting, online pornography, staying safe online,

0:36:50 > 0:36:51transgender issues.

0:36:51 > 0:36:53Should these topics be included in new sex

0:36:53 > 0:36:55and relationships education guidelines for schools in England?

0:36:55 > 0:36:59Guidance on how sex education should be taught in schools hasn't changed

0:36:59 > 0:37:04in nearly two decades despite our rapidly changing world.

0:37:04 > 0:37:06And so now, the Department for Education is asking parents

0:37:06 > 0:37:09and young people for their opinions in an eight-week call for views

0:37:09 > 0:37:14on what should be covered.

0:37:14 > 0:37:17I know lots of parents watched our programme so tell us what you think.

0:37:17 > 0:37:20We can speak now to Haafiza Noor, who's a 21-year-old

0:37:20 > 0:37:21university student.

0:37:21 > 0:37:23Toby Hollins, who's a sixth form student, who volunteers

0:37:23 > 0:37:29for the sexual charity Brook and Kate Parker is the director

0:37:29 > 0:37:32of the Schools Consent Project, which goes into schools to teach

0:37:32 > 0:37:35kids about the law when it comes to things like consent and sexting.

0:37:35 > 0:37:37And Anne Lyons is head of the National Association

0:37:37 > 0:37:38of Head Teachers.

0:37:38 > 0:37:44Thank you for joining us. OK, so, what do you think should be

0:37:44 > 0:37:49included, Toby, that certainly wasn't when you were taught sex

0:37:49 > 0:37:53education?I turned 17 last month so the education guidelines are as old

0:37:53 > 0:37:58as me. Obviously, the Internet, in 2000, it was a baby and it has grown

0:37:58 > 0:38:02so there needs to be more emphasis on the influence of the Internet,

0:38:02 > 0:38:06the way teenagers use the Internet, looking at online pornography and

0:38:06 > 0:38:10the relationship there, talking to each other online as well as needing

0:38:10 > 0:38:15to be, I don't know, more on consent, and as well as the way they

0:38:15 > 0:38:18talk to each other about sex, because there is lots of

0:38:18 > 0:38:25misinformation.Like what? Pornography online is rampant so

0:38:25 > 0:38:30they will talk about, boys especially, talking about women in a

0:38:30 > 0:38:32very degrading way, very disrespectful. They need to learn

0:38:32 > 0:38:38and be educated.Are you happy with the teacher doing that or is it down

0:38:38 > 0:38:43to parents?I think teachers should do it because everybody's home life

0:38:43 > 0:38:46is different, with parents, there's religion and all kinds of different

0:38:46 > 0:38:50factors involved. Obviously, schools go about it a different way because

0:38:50 > 0:38:54they have teachers, or they bring in people from externally which is

0:38:54 > 0:38:57good, I think some unqualified coming in is good but at the same

0:38:57 > 0:39:01time teachers need to be trained so if any issues occur after that, a

0:39:01 > 0:39:04few months later, the person that came in has gone somewhere else so

0:39:04 > 0:39:08teachers need to be trained to deal with issues that arise in the

0:39:08 > 0:39:13classroom and in the school environment.Haafiza, you are 21

0:39:13 > 0:39:16now, do you remember what sex and relationship education was like,

0:39:16 > 0:39:21what it covered? What should it cover now?Well, it was more about

0:39:21 > 0:39:26sex education when I was in school and it was really basic.Give us an

0:39:26 > 0:39:31example.It just kind of cover... What can I say an air?Use the

0:39:31 > 0:39:37correct terminology!It covered genitalia and how to put on a

0:39:37 > 0:39:44condom. It spoke about STDs that you could get. It never cover things

0:39:44 > 0:39:48like LGBT relationships or how relationships should be. We were

0:39:48 > 0:39:55never really told that you could... Rather, we were never made to feel

0:39:55 > 0:40:00like we did go to a teacher to talk about sex and relationship. It was

0:40:00 > 0:40:06kind of like, even in school it was treated as to blue.Interesting.

0:40:06 > 0:40:12Scott is 26, he is gay, you talked about the fact LGBT issues were

0:40:12 > 0:40:18never mentioned at school. Scott, hello. Watching from Glasgow, thank

0:40:18 > 0:40:23you for talking to us. What do you think should be included?My problem

0:40:23 > 0:40:30I had in school was that I was kind of told that having a gay

0:40:30 > 0:40:34relationship was OK but I was not given any more support than that. I

0:40:34 > 0:40:39was not told where I could go for support. Whereas a lot of the

0:40:39 > 0:40:47heterosexual pupils in my class were told they could go to various places

0:40:47 > 0:40:52to get information whereas I was just left to find it out myself.

0:40:52 > 0:40:57Interesting and had you had the information, would it have made

0:40:57 > 0:41:00coming out any easier?I think it would have made coming out easier

0:41:00 > 0:41:05and also I think it probably would have led to less experimentation as

0:41:05 > 0:41:12well in terms of the things I was getting up to at that kind of age,

0:41:12 > 0:41:19that I probably shouldn't have been getting up to. That is quite

0:41:19 > 0:41:25problematic and I think it is quite a big problem in the LGBT community.

0:41:25 > 0:41:29What do you say to those who say it is not for teachers to be doing it

0:41:29 > 0:41:35in school, it is up to parents?I think part of that is true. I think

0:41:35 > 0:41:39that some of its needs to come from parents but also some of its needs

0:41:39 > 0:41:45to come from teachers. I think a lot of family units, there are problems

0:41:45 > 0:41:51there with religion, problems with other cultural aspects, that it is

0:41:51 > 0:41:56not accepted, so it should really be coming from teachers and obviously,

0:41:56 > 0:42:02teachers should be trained to know about these issues as well because

0:42:02 > 0:42:05they may not have experienced them in their personal life either.Thank

0:42:05 > 0:42:11you, Scott. Kate Parker is from the school 's consent projects are you

0:42:11 > 0:42:14go into schools as an external organisation, teachers are not doing

0:42:14 > 0:42:19this. What do you talk to the children about?We sending lawyers

0:42:19 > 0:42:23and postgraduate law students to speak to 11-18 -year-olds

0:42:23 > 0:42:27specifically about the legal definition of consent but also keep

0:42:27 > 0:42:33sexual and communication offences. Like sexting?Yes, revenge born with

0:42:33 > 0:42:37students of a certain age but we also look at things like the age of

0:42:37 > 0:42:45consent, the definition of consent, bystander intervention, appropriate

0:42:45 > 0:42:48responses to begin disclosure, what to do in the event of an attack. We

0:42:48 > 0:42:51cover a number of different topics in an hour 's workshop, it is very

0:42:51 > 0:42:53full but we have found sexting has increasingly been a topic that

0:42:53 > 0:42:55teachers and students are desperate to talk about.Because they don't

0:42:55 > 0:42:59know the law? Remind our audience what it is to either sending an

0:42:59 > 0:43:03image of yourself naked or somebody else receiving it. Width taking,

0:43:03 > 0:43:06possessing or distributing an indecent image of someone under 18

0:43:06 > 0:43:12including yourself is a criminal offence. And you just need someone

0:43:12 > 0:43:15with no clothes on?It can mean that, it's a boring threshold in

0:43:15 > 0:43:21law, it is a subjective assessment of an objective understanding so

0:43:21 > 0:43:24basically, what a member of the jury would think wider society would

0:43:24 > 0:43:29consider to be indecent.But indecent to a 13 does not really

0:43:29 > 0:43:35mean anything.We do it when it's likely to be breasts, your bum, your

0:43:35 > 0:43:39genitalia.How many young people are aware it is against the law?Not

0:43:39 > 0:43:44very many. It is a section of the workshop where the ears prick up and

0:43:44 > 0:43:51lots of questions, in.Is that the kind of thing that would be useful?

0:43:51 > 0:43:55Yeah, I was going to say that when I was in school, it was quite

0:43:55 > 0:43:59outdated, sex education, and it did not really touch on the fact we were

0:43:59 > 0:44:03using the Internet, trading images and so on. That is a good thing to

0:44:03 > 0:44:10be taught now.That is pretty... Pervasive.Prolific, persuasive,

0:44:10 > 0:44:14popular, whatever you want to lose. Can I ask you about LGBT issues,

0:44:14 > 0:44:18something that would have been imported for Scott and Haafiza

0:44:18 > 0:44:22raised it and transgender issues, should they be included in the

0:44:22 > 0:44:26updated guidelines?Yes, we have been pushing for updated guidelines

0:44:26 > 0:44:31so we welcome the consultation. What is important and I think the key

0:44:31 > 0:44:38phrase is age-appropriate. So I think that is really important. We

0:44:38 > 0:44:43would support in secondary schools, there should be teachers who are

0:44:43 > 0:44:49specialists in this work. In the primary school, there needs to be

0:44:49 > 0:44:55good training for teachers so they can work with their class. If I give

0:44:55 > 0:45:02you an example, in my school, in the reception class, the children will

0:45:02 > 0:45:07perhaps, when a parent has had a baby, so they might bring the baby

0:45:07 > 0:45:13in to see the children, and perhaps they can give it a bath, and the

0:45:13 > 0:45:19reception class will go out to a farm, that is appropriate, the

0:45:19 > 0:45:25beginnings of PSA chief.A real baby comes in and be reception did give

0:45:25 > 0:45:34it a bath?Know, the parent does.I was going to say!The parent gives

0:45:34 > 0:45:41it above but the children are learning.Yes, age-appropriate. Why

0:45:41 > 0:45:44is your organisation saying that LGBT issues should be included? Why

0:45:44 > 0:45:50is it important in your view? Because we need to be teaching our

0:45:50 > 0:45:54young people about the world in which they live and it is really

0:45:54 > 0:46:03important that they know that there are many different relationship

0:46:03 > 0:46:07setups. I think parents need supporting, particularly in the

0:46:07 > 0:46:11primary school, we work closely with parents so if we have trained

0:46:11 > 0:46:19teachers that no appropriate ways to teach and talk to children. -- that

0:46:19 > 0:46:22know the appropriate ways.And you agree with that. Thank you for

0:46:22 > 0:46:24joining us.

0:46:31 > 0:46:37We'll bring you more on the greater protection needed for home-buyers

0:46:37 > 0:46:41amidst the shocking quality of the new homes. Some shocking examples

0:46:41 > 0:46:45from you this morning. Thank you. Nick says nearly three years in, we

0:46:45 > 0:46:50have 26 outstanding defects that the ombudsman ordered to be put right.

0:46:50 > 0:46:53But the builder simply ignores them. Several of these are serious

0:46:53 > 0:46:57breaches of building regulations. The hot water system was never

0:46:57 > 0:47:00commissioned, as the regulations require and had serious errors in

0:47:00 > 0:47:05safety systems. Drain covers collapsed and the drains have parts

0:47:05 > 0:47:09missing that allow rats free access between the sewers, the grounds and

0:47:09 > 0:47:13our flat rooves. All these things are breaches of building regulations

0:47:13 > 0:47:16but none of the plumbers, site managers or building control seem to

0:47:16 > 0:47:20have the necessary knowledge or respect of the regulations. This is

0:47:20 > 0:47:25the same root cause as the contempt of regulations that led to the

0:47:25 > 0:47:30Grenfell fire. Buying a new build was the worst mistake of my life

0:47:30 > 0:47:33says Nick. I would urge anyone thinking of doing it to walk away,

0:47:33 > 0:47:37it's an industry that is completely out of control. Wow. Thank you very

0:47:37 > 0:47:41much, Nick. More messages from you throughout

0:47:41 > 0:47:44the rest of the programme.

0:47:44 > 0:47:46Thousands of women are sharing their own breast milk via social

0:47:46 > 0:47:49media groups in an effort to help others, a BBC West Midlands

0:47:49 > 0:47:51investigation has discovered.

0:47:51 > 0:47:55One Facebook page has seen its followers go up by 600%,

0:47:55 > 0:47:57to nearly 18,000, in less than five years.

0:47:57 > 0:48:00The practice is often used by mothers who aren't able

0:48:00 > 0:48:04to produce enough breast milk for their baby, and others

0:48:04 > 0:48:06who produce more than their children need.

0:48:06 > 0:48:08But there are concerns that because the donors aren't screened,

0:48:08 > 0:48:14diseases like hepatitis and HIV could be passed on in the milk.

0:48:14 > 0:48:17We'll be talking to mums and and an MP and a doctor,

0:48:17 > 0:48:22but first Emma Ailes went to meet Tara Cauchi,

0:48:22 > 0:48:26who started using other women's breast milk to feed her son

0:48:26 > 0:48:28Micah after realising she couldn't produce enough.

0:48:28 > 0:48:32So I had intended to exclusively breast-feed as was recommended

0:48:32 > 0:48:40but I had required breast surgery when I was 18 and so my milk ducts

0:48:40 > 0:48:43had been severed a bit and I wasn't able to produce as much milk

0:48:43 > 0:48:45as he needed.

0:48:45 > 0:48:47So we started to mix feed, we introduced formula,

0:48:47 > 0:48:52and I'm definitely not anti-formula.

0:48:52 > 0:48:53I think that it's best, right?

0:48:53 > 0:48:54What works.

0:48:54 > 0:48:58So we started doing that but he wasn't thriving.

0:48:58 > 0:49:01He started to lose a lot of weight.

0:49:01 > 0:49:04He dropped two percentiles on his chart.

0:49:04 > 0:49:07It just wasn't working, he started getting really sore skin

0:49:07 > 0:49:10and towards the end of that formula journey he just got

0:49:10 > 0:49:14covered in eczema.

0:49:14 > 0:49:17He was having stomach issues, he was struggling all night to poop

0:49:17 > 0:49:21and it just wasn't a very good time for us.

0:49:21 > 0:49:25And it's really kind of scary, not knowing what to feed your kids.

0:49:25 > 0:49:28And we just thought, well this might be a risk

0:49:28 > 0:49:30but we definitely know

0:49:30 > 0:49:32formula is not working so let's try it, and we did,

0:49:32 > 0:49:35and he's done amazing.

0:49:35 > 0:49:37His skin has cleared up pretty much almost completely,

0:49:37 > 0:49:40no more stomach issues.

0:49:40 > 0:49:43He's super active, he's very much thriving and it's just

0:49:43 > 0:49:47been really brilliant.

0:49:47 > 0:49:50Why are you getting upset?

0:49:50 > 0:49:54It just seemed like there wasn't a lot of help through the NHS,

0:49:54 > 0:50:01and to be able to turn to another mother was brilliant

0:50:01 > 0:50:09and they basically kept him alive so we are super grateful.

0:50:09 > 0:50:16We've had mums who have given us milk because their babies can't

0:50:16 > 0:50:19or won't take the bottle so they have all this milk

0:50:19 > 0:50:22that they saved but can't use.

0:50:22 > 0:50:24Some mums donate because they have a huge oversupply.

0:50:24 > 0:50:27One of our regular donors, she had twins and she was making

0:50:27 > 0:50:31enough milk for triplets.

0:50:31 > 0:50:33So the great thing about it is you meet them, right?

0:50:33 > 0:50:36You connect with them on Facebook but then you go and meet them

0:50:36 > 0:50:40face-to-face and you see their home, and see in their eyes

0:50:40 > 0:50:43that they are good people.

0:50:43 > 0:50:47They just want to do something that's helpful.

0:50:47 > 0:50:56Let's talk to Sarah McHugh, who donates her breast milk

0:50:56 > 0:51:00via a Facebook group and baby Harriett, Rebecca Poole who receives

0:51:00 > 0:51:07milk from Sarah for Theo here, Dr Natalie Shenker, a director

0:51:07 > 0:51:15of a human milkbank and SNP MP Alison Thewliss who chairs a group

0:51:15 > 0:51:20of MPs on infant nutrition.

0:51:20 > 0:51:26Welcome all of you. Sarah, why do you donate milk?Hi. So, I wanted to

0:51:26 > 0:51:29feed Harriet but unfortunately, we had a lot of difficulties with that

0:51:29 > 0:51:34despite a lot of help. So I started expressing milk to then feed Harriet

0:51:34 > 0:51:39via bottle. But I ended up with, as was mentioned in your little

0:51:39 > 0:51:44introduction there, too much milk. So I started looking into donating

0:51:44 > 0:51:48it because otherwise it's just throwing it down the sink really

0:51:48 > 0:51:52which, for all my hard work and all that good milk, would be horrible.

0:51:52 > 0:51:58So I looked into denegotiating to the milk banks which I do so I've

0:51:58 > 0:52:07donated regularly to milk banks via in terms of completing health

0:52:07 > 0:52:11screening, having blood tests, complying to their sterilisation

0:52:11 > 0:52:14processes and temperature-checking processes. But sometimes I had milk

0:52:14 > 0:52:18and for example didn't have bottles to put it in or for whatever reason

0:52:18 > 0:52:24I couldn't donate it, so I did store it in my freezer and that is when I

0:52:24 > 0:52:28looked for the more informal routes of donating the milk.

0:52:28 > 0:52:33Hence Rebecca receiving your milk. Indeed.Tell us why it's significant

0:52:33 > 0:52:38for you that you receive expressed milk from another mum?Theo when he

0:52:38 > 0:52:44was born dropped quite a lot of weight, from the 98th percent isle

0:52:44 > 0:52:47down to the ninth percent isle. My milk wasn't enough to meet his

0:52:47 > 0:52:52demand. Knowing I myself and my older little one who is nearly three

0:52:52 > 0:52:55as well have milk intolerances, we are not allergic but we do react

0:52:55 > 0:53:05very badly to it, I didn't want to bring Theo up on formula. So I

0:53:05 > 0:53:10looked into milk donor, or receiving it from a donor. I couldn't afford

0:53:10 > 0:53:14the milk bank milk, it was too expensive and I happened to stumble

0:53:14 > 0:53:18across the human milk for human babies page on Facebook, that's

0:53:18 > 0:53:22where I met Sarah.How do you know the milk you receive from Sarah is

0:53:22 > 0:53:27safe?Lucky for me, Sarah donates to Neal owe natal already so I know

0:53:27 > 0:53:33she's gone through the correct screening processes. If Sarah had

0:53:33 > 0:53:40not been registered with that and been through the screening process,

0:53:40 > 0:53:43I would have asked certain questions and would have asked for

0:53:43 > 0:53:47certificates of testing and things that a mum may have done.Those

0:53:47 > 0:53:52certificates of testing, are they available for everybody or anybody

0:53:52 > 0:53:57who is donating milk?No.No. That is the worry?They need to get it

0:53:57 > 0:54:01themselves.What do you think of this?It's a great thing that people

0:54:01 > 0:54:05are willing to donate their milk and are happy to do that, they are

0:54:05 > 0:54:08donating to milk banks as well. I would have concerns that if it's

0:54:08 > 0:54:12somebody you have never met or don't have a relationship with, that you

0:54:12 > 0:54:17don't have any kind of sense of the safety or the voracity of that milk

0:54:17 > 0:54:21as well. It's not necessarily the risk of infection which would be

0:54:21 > 0:54:26pretty small, but it's other things like, is the mum on any medication

0:54:26 > 0:54:31that might affect the breast milk, have they taken any alcohol, do they

0:54:31 > 0:54:35have an illness themselves because breast milk changes on a daily basis

0:54:35 > 0:54:38as well, responding to the needs of the baby. So you have to be

0:54:38 > 0:54:42conscious of that. You also don't know how it's been stored,

0:54:42 > 0:54:45transported and whether or not that would meet the same safety standards

0:54:45 > 0:54:48that milk banks are required to have.Is it something that the

0:54:48 > 0:54:52Government should get involved in or be worried about?It's something

0:54:52 > 0:54:56they should certainly look at. There are strict guidelines around milk

0:54:56 > 0:55:00banking. There aren't for this kind of voluntary sharing though. We need

0:55:00 > 0:55:03to have a wee look at the guidance that's there at the moment that

0:55:03 > 0:55:07doesn't seem to be on the radar from the questions we've asked so far.

0:55:07 > 0:55:11It's something we need to look at more widely in the wider context of

0:55:11 > 0:55:15infant feeding because there isn't a strong enough network of milk banks

0:55:15 > 0:55:19across England. It tends to be down to individual hospitals to decide to

0:55:19 > 0:55:26take that up. They don't open 24-7, so if people wanted to donate they

0:55:26 > 0:55:34may not be able to necessarily. Hello, Dr Shenker at the milk bank.

0:55:34 > 0:55:37There aren't potentially enough human Millbanks, hence this informal

0:55:37 > 0:55:42arrangement via Facebook. What do you think of it?I would take issue

0:55:42 > 0:55:46that there aren't enough milk banks, the question is the issue of scale.

0:55:46 > 0:55:53It's expensive to run a human milk bank. We are operating as a social

0:55:53 > 0:55:55enterprise outside the NHS with the view that we can meet the demand

0:55:55 > 0:56:02that we know is out there. Milk banks have true derisionly been

0:56:02 > 0:56:07there to -- traditionally been there to provide milk to premature babies.

0:56:07 > 0:56:12Our donors go through a process similar to donating blood. We need a

0:56:12 > 0:56:16regionalisation of milk banks and a sense and strategy working with

0:56:16 > 0:56:19government and with the UK association for milk banking to

0:56:19 > 0:56:23really make sure that there's equitable provision and assured

0:56:23 > 0:56:27provision across the country.In the meantime, to you accept this

0:56:27 > 0:56:31informal network of mums getting together to help each other which in

0:56:31 > 0:56:35one sense is really empowering and moving in a way, do you think that

0:56:35 > 0:56:38is filling a demand on the other hand is OK?Absolutely. I mean,

0:56:38 > 0:56:45women have done this for Millennia and that's how our species evolved

0:56:45 > 0:56:48is that women who couldn't breast-feed were supported by other

0:56:48 > 0:56:52mums in the community. We'd like to work to bring elements of safety

0:56:52 > 0:56:57into that to ensure babies are not harmed in any way. Accidentally by

0:56:57 > 0:57:01very well-meaning mothers in this what can be a wonderful arrangement.

0:57:01 > 0:57:07Sarah, have you ever... Sorry, go on, Rebecca?I was going to say, for

0:57:07 > 0:57:12us, I firmly believe that a mother is feeding her own baby her milk

0:57:12 > 0:57:17would not give that milk to another baby knowing that there was an

0:57:17 > 0:57:21infection of any kind there. There would be no malice whatsoever.You

0:57:21 > 0:57:25are probably right, but you don't know. I mean, as Alison said, the

0:57:25 > 0:57:29mum might be on certain medication which might have an effect on the

0:57:29 > 0:57:33breast milk. We'd all like to think mums are kind and want to help other

0:57:33 > 0:57:37mums.There is the aspect they may not know, for example, if they are

0:57:37 > 0:57:42suffering with or have a viral inFCion. They may not know. But the

0:57:42 > 0:57:50risks are minimal. There is research out there to show that, I mean

0:57:50 > 0:57:55maximum of 20% chance that you could catch a virus through the feeding

0:57:55 > 0:57:59aspect. So when you make that informed decision and have the open

0:57:59 > 0:58:04discussion, so me and Sarah had a good chat, if I wasn't receiving

0:58:04 > 0:58:08milk from Sarah and selected another mum, the conversations would have

0:58:08 > 0:58:13been brutal to an extent.In what way, what would you have asked?I

0:58:13 > 0:58:17would want to know personally gluten and dairy medications, I would want

0:58:17 > 0:58:21to visit the house, so I want to go and say hi to them, see what their

0:58:21 > 0:58:24environment is like, my gut would then start giving me warning signs

0:58:24 > 0:58:29if there were any issues.OK. Well, thank you all of you, I'm really

0:58:29 > 0:58:32grateful for you talking to us today. Thank you so much. Harriet's

0:58:32 > 0:58:37been a delight, she's been so well behaved. Let me tell you, Rebecca,

0:58:37 > 0:58:40we have never had a sleeping baby on this programme before, usually

0:58:40 > 0:58:45babies run amok in the studio and we love it! We also love sleeping Theos

0:58:45 > 0:58:50as well. Thank you very much for your time.

0:58:52 > 0:58:56We'll bring you the latest news and sport in a moment. Let me bring you

0:58:56 > 0:59:02this news - a prisoner called Paul Black who wants smoking in jails to

0:59:02 > 0:59:07be a criminal offence has lost his legal battle at the Supreme Court.

0:59:07 > 0:59:10We'll bring you more reaction to that in the next hour of the

0:59:10 > 0:59:16programme. But an inmate called Paul Black who wants smoking in jails to

0:59:16 > 0:59:20be made a criminal offence lost his battle at the Supreme Court. He was

0:59:20 > 0:59:25concerned about his own exposure to second hand smoke and he wanted

0:59:25 > 0:59:28illicit lighting up in jails to be a criminal offence, wanted the same

0:59:28 > 0:59:33level of protection from the risks posed by passive smoking as

0:59:33 > 0:59:37"non-smokers living in the wider community" but has lost his case.

0:59:37 > 0:59:42The latest weather now. It's way colder today Matt, what is going

0:59:42 > 0:59:42The latest weather now. It's way colder today Matt, what is going on?

0:59:42 > 0:59:47It certainly is. We have had a chill across the country this morning,

0:59:47 > 0:59:50particularly for England. The fog we saw overnight has lifted quickly but

0:59:50 > 0:59:54the frost and the ice is around. Lovely shots across some parts of

0:59:54 > 0:59:59England at the moment but on the pavements and roads, it's slippy and

0:59:59 > 1:00:04a big temperature contrast. Minus four in Bournemouth but almost 20

1:00:04 > 1:00:07degrees warmer in Highland Scotland at 15 at the moment. The temperature

1:00:07 > 1:00:11contrasts will exist to a certain degree through today. The reason

1:00:11 > 1:00:13it's warmer in Scotland and Northern Ireland, we have south-west winds

1:00:13 > 1:00:17here, a lot more cloud, so temperatures didn't drop much

1:00:17 > 1:00:23through the night. The temperatures will rise in the Moray Firth later

1:00:23 > 1:00:29on. Increased amounts of cloud in northern England and the Midlands. A

1:00:29 > 1:00:33few Lyngering fog patches there. They Lynger in East Anglia.

1:00:33 > 1:00:37Temperatures only around four or five, as opposed to 14 in the Moray

1:00:37 > 1:00:43Firth. Into tonight, a lot more cloud

1:00:43 > 1:00:50around. Victoria will be happy, it won't be as cold out there. Wet and

1:00:50 > 1:00:53windy weather spread across Northern Ireland and Scotland. Drizzle for

1:00:53 > 1:00:56England and Wales, misty over the hills and whilst the odd pocket of

1:00:56 > 1:00:59frost and fog is possible with outbreaks to the east of England and

1:00:59 > 1:01:03later in the north-west of Scotland, most will be frost-free. A damp

1:01:03 > 1:01:05start for early risers, southern Scotland and Northern Ireland. That

1:01:05 > 1:01:08patchy rain and drizzle moves into the north and North Wales through

1:01:08 > 1:01:13the day. Gloomy through the afternoon. To the south of it, a lot

1:01:13 > 1:01:16more cloud than we have been used to. A few cloud breaks but it will

1:01:16 > 1:01:20be milder than we have seen so far and still faring not too bad in

1:01:20 > 1:01:23Scotland and Northern Ireland as far as temperatures are concerned. Here,

1:01:23 > 1:01:27a better chance of sunshine. Into Thursday, the weather front is

1:01:27 > 1:01:31further south so a few spots of rain and drizzle. Mild weather in the

1:01:31 > 1:01:35south. Brighter in the north but it will feel colder and there could be

1:01:35 > 1:01:39some frost around through Thursday night into Friday morning still.

1:01:39 > 1:01:42That will gradually give way to milder weather through the weekend.

1:01:42 > 1:01:47Christmas Day chart, at the moment, it could change, but wet and windy

1:01:47 > 1:01:50weather spreading across England and Wales and turning colder and there

1:01:50 > 1:01:53could be some wintry showers.

1:01:53 > 1:01:57Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 10 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:01:57 > 1:02:02This morning: "uninhabitable" new built homes with countless problems.

1:02:02 > 1:02:07We hear calls for greater protection for home-buyers amid growing

1:02:07 > 1:02:09concerns about the quality of some new-build homes.

1:02:09 > 1:02:15We're in a position where one, it's not sellable and two,

1:02:15 > 1:02:18we've been told it's not inhabitable either, so we've...

1:02:18 > 1:02:20Well, we've lost everything.

1:02:20 > 1:02:23So many of you getting in touch to share the problems

1:02:23 > 1:02:26you've experienced.

1:02:26 > 1:02:28We'll hear from some of you in around 10 minutes' time.

1:02:28 > 1:02:32Also on the programme - the grandparents of a four-year-old

1:02:32 > 1:02:37girl who's been missing since May plead for her safe return.

1:02:37 > 1:02:40Elliana Shand is thought to be with her mother,

1:02:40 > 1:02:42who has schizophrenia and, according to a judge,

1:02:42 > 1:02:45poses a very real risk to her daughter's safety.

1:02:45 > 1:02:49I do have a bizarre understanding of why they'd do it.

1:02:49 > 1:02:52I don't agree with it but I do understand why the did it.

1:02:52 > 1:02:55I don't agree with it but I do understand why they did it.

1:02:55 > 1:02:58But it's not in the child's interest and it's certainly not

1:02:58 > 1:03:01in Jessica's interest.

1:03:01 > 1:03:03The full interview before 11am.

1:03:03 > 1:03:08And we are shortly expecting the sentencing of reality TV star

1:03:08 > 1:03:11Ferne McCann's ex-boyfriend Arthur Collins, who threw

1:03:11 > 1:03:13acid over a group of men in an East London nightclub.

1:03:13 > 1:03:17We'll bring you that when we get it.

1:03:21 > 1:03:23Good morning.

1:03:23 > 1:03:26Here's Ben Brown in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

1:03:26 > 1:03:30Four men from South Yorkshire and Derbyshire have been arrested

1:03:30 > 1:03:33on suspicion of terrorism offences.

1:03:33 > 1:03:36Three of the men, who are aged 22, 36 and 41, were arrested

1:03:36 > 1:03:39at their homes in Sheffield.

1:03:39 > 1:03:43A fourth man, who's 31, was arrested at an address in Chesterfield.

1:03:43 > 1:03:46All of the men have been taken to a police station

1:03:46 > 1:03:47in West Yorkshire for questioning.

1:03:47 > 1:03:52Investigators say a train which crashed in the US state

1:03:52 > 1:03:55of Washington, killing three people, was travelling at 80 mph

1:03:55 > 1:03:57in a 30 mph zone.

1:03:57 > 1:03:59Around 70 people were injured, ten seriously, when the train

1:03:59 > 1:04:08plunged off a bridge onto a motorway below.

1:04:08 > 1:04:13Preliminary indications are that the train was travelling at 80 mph in a

1:04:13 > 1:04:1530 mph track.

1:04:15 > 1:04:18The train was a 12-car train and it had a locomotive both

1:04:18 > 1:04:21in the front and back.

1:04:21 > 1:04:26Amtrak estimates that 80 passengers were on the train with three crew

1:04:26 > 1:04:31and two service personnel in the cafe car.

1:04:31 > 1:04:34The crew went on duty at 5am and the train departed

1:04:34 > 1:04:40at 6am this morning.

1:04:40 > 1:04:43There were two stops and the last stop was 18 miles

1:04:43 > 1:04:48prior to the accident.

1:04:48 > 1:04:51Parents, teachers and young people in England are being asked

1:04:51 > 1:04:53to suggest what should be included in new guidelines for

1:04:53 > 1:04:54teaching children about sex and relationships.

1:04:54 > 1:04:57The current guidelines have not been updated since the year 2000

1:04:57 > 1:05:01and don't address issues such as sexting and online pornography.

1:05:01 > 1:05:02Ministers say this is "unacceptable" and want

1:05:02 > 1:05:07new guidance for autumn 2019.

1:05:07 > 1:05:09There are calls for greater protection for homebuyers

1:05:09 > 1:05:12amid growing concerns about the quality of

1:05:12 > 1:05:15some new-build homes.

1:05:15 > 1:05:18This programme has heard from people who bought properties from major

1:05:18 > 1:05:20builders and then experienced serious problems shortly

1:05:20 > 1:05:24after moving in.

1:05:24 > 1:05:27Campaigners say that in such cases, buyers often find they are powerless

1:05:27 > 1:05:37to insist that builders correct the faults.

1:05:37 > 1:05:41The Royal Navy's new £3 billion aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth

1:05:41 > 1:05:44is leaking. The future flagship commode was commissioned by the

1:05:44 > 1:05:47Queen lesson two weeks ago, as a problem with one of the propeller

1:05:47 > 1:05:51shafts. The fault was first identified during sea trials. A

1:05:51 > 1:05:55spokesman says the aircraft carrier was scheduled for repair and will be

1:05:55 > 1:05:57sailing again early in the New Year.

1:05:57 > 1:06:00The grandparents of a four-year-old girl who has been missing since May

1:06:00 > 1:06:02have appealed for help in finding her.

1:06:02 > 1:06:05Elliana Shand, who celebrates her birthday today,

1:06:05 > 1:06:10went missing from her home in the summer.

1:06:10 > 1:06:12Her grandparents' appeal comes after evidence suggests

1:06:12 > 1:06:15she is travelling with her mother, who has schizophrenia.

1:06:15 > 1:06:19And we'll have much more on this story at around 10.30 when we'll be

1:06:19 > 1:06:25hearing from Elliana's grandparents, who will explain why they've gone

1:06:25 > 1:06:31public with their appeal for help.

1:06:31 > 1:06:33The government is to outline measures to tackle race bias in the

1:06:33 > 1:06:36criminal justice system in England and Wales following a report from

1:06:36 > 1:06:39Labour MP David Lammy which found the system discriminates against

1:06:39 > 1:06:42people from ethnic minority backgrounds. The Justice Secretary

1:06:42 > 1:06:48David Lidington says work will be done on each of the 35

1:06:48 > 1:06:51recommendations but it is understood a proposal aimed at boosting ethnic

1:06:51 > 1:06:57diversity among the judiciary has not been accepted. In a few minutes,

1:06:57 > 1:07:02we will be speaking to Jeremy Crook, who was part of David Lammy's panel

1:07:02 > 1:07:04and help produce the report.

1:07:04 > 1:07:10That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30.

1:07:10 > 1:07:13We're going to talk to some of you around the country about the

1:07:13 > 1:07:18problems you have had with new-build homes so stay tuned. Get in touch an

1:07:18 > 1:07:25e-mail, Twitter, WhatsApp and Facebook, which is growing in

1:07:25 > 1:07:28popularity, thanks to you.

1:07:28 > 1:07:31Here's some sport now with Holly.

1:07:31 > 1:07:34We start with the news an investigation is underway following

1:07:34 > 1:07:37the allegations of doping against the coach and agent of world

1:07:37 > 1:07:42champion sprinter Justin Gatlin. The Telegraph alleges Robert Wagner, and

1:07:42 > 1:07:47agent linked to Justin Gatlin, that undercover reporter 's performance

1:07:47 > 1:07:50enhancing drugs while Justin Gatlin's coach former Olympic gold

1:07:50 > 1:07:53medallist Dennis Mitchell told reporters athletes can get away with

1:07:53 > 1:07:57doping because the drugs they use cannot be detected by tests. The

1:07:57 > 1:08:01Telegraph said this video is Waggoner responding to questions by

1:08:01 > 1:08:04an undercover reporter over whether he or Mitchell have recent

1:08:04 > 1:08:06experience of using performance enhancing drugs. Both men deny the

1:08:06 > 1:08:08allegations.

1:08:41 > 1:08:46That's my understanding but I don't want to make assumptions.IAAF

1:08:46 > 1:08:50president Lord Coe has said the allegations are extremely serious

1:08:50 > 1:08:53and the independent athletics integrity unit will investigate.

1:08:53 > 1:08:57Justin Gatlin has responded on social media this morning,

1:08:57 > 1:09:02vehemently denying any involvement and saying he is shocked and

1:09:02 > 1:09:06surprised at the doping allegations and he has fired his coach,

1:09:06 > 1:09:11Mitchell, as soon as he found out about this.

1:09:11 > 1:09:14Everton manager Sam Allardyce says he is confident the club can finish

1:09:14 > 1:09:17in the top half of the perennially this season after they made it four

1:09:17 > 1:09:22wins in five games with victory over Swansea last night. This stunning

1:09:22 > 1:09:28strike from Gylfi Sigurdsson against his old club put the hosts 2-1 up

1:09:28 > 1:09:32and Wayne Rooney got a second-half penalty, his tent of the season. The

1:09:32 > 1:09:35former England captain missed a penalty in the first half, which

1:09:35 > 1:09:41Dominic Calvert-Lewin followed up. Everton are now ninth.We have got

1:09:41 > 1:09:48to try and get a result against Chelsea, then we will really know

1:09:48 > 1:09:53what we are made of. With this confidence, if we can go and get a

1:09:53 > 1:09:59result against Chelsea, on Saturday, then we are really going on the

1:09:59 > 1:10:05right track for finishing in the top half, as high as we can. So let's C

1:10:05 > 1:10:09of the lads can pull it out of the bag.We had a good amount of the

1:10:09 > 1:10:13ball, created some good chances, played some good football, and yes,

1:10:13 > 1:10:18the mood in the dressing room was very flat. You know, we're bottom of

1:10:18 > 1:10:22the table, 12 points, got to focus on getting to 15 at the halfway

1:10:22 > 1:10:25point. We know what we have got to do for the second half of the season

1:10:25 > 1:10:27then.

1:10:27 > 1:10:37This time yesterday, England's Ashes hopes had

1:10:37 > 1:10:40vanished as they went 3-0 down in the five match series.

1:10:40 > 1:10:42Captain Joe Root says he has backed

1:10:42 > 1:10:44senior players to continue in the team next year.

1:10:44 > 1:10:47Head coach Trevor Bayliss's role is also is under scrutiny but does

1:10:47 > 1:10:49he still think he's the man to be in charge?

1:10:49 > 1:10:52I think I am. You may not but I think our performances have done

1:10:52 > 1:10:58pretty well over the last couple. So, yeah, that's the people above my

1:10:58 > 1:11:03grey break -- above my pay grade to make that decision so we will leave

1:11:03 > 1:11:09it up to them.For now, back to you. Thank you.

1:11:09 > 1:11:16Looking at Twitter and seeing that Buddy says," if you are teaching sex

1:11:16 > 1:11:19education to teenagers, it is a bit late".

1:11:20 > 1:11:23Gas leaks, damp, holes in the floor and cracks in the walls -

1:11:23 > 1:11:25not things you'd expect to experience when moving

1:11:25 > 1:11:26into a brand new home.

1:11:26 > 1:11:29But this programme has heard from people who bought

1:11:29 > 1:11:31from big name builders, only to uncover hundreds of things

1:11:31 > 1:11:33wrong with the property just weeks after they moved in.

1:11:33 > 1:11:35Some even discovered major structural defects.

1:11:35 > 1:11:37Campaigners say that when people do experience issues,

1:11:37 > 1:11:43they can find themselves powerless to force the builder

1:11:43 > 1:11:46to put things right, and warn that the quality

1:11:46 > 1:11:48and workmanship of homes being built has drastically dropped,

1:11:48 > 1:11:49in some cases to shocking levels.

1:11:49 > 1:11:52We spoke to one woman who was told by an independent surveyor

1:11:52 > 1:11:57that her new home was uninhabitable, less than a year after moving in.

1:11:57 > 1:11:59We bought you Emma Ailes' full report earlier in the programme -

1:11:59 > 1:12:01here's a short extract.

1:12:01 > 1:12:03It's just broken me and I don't think they care

1:12:03 > 1:12:06that they've broken me,

1:12:06 > 1:12:09and I can't believe how unlucky we've been to be in this position

1:12:09 > 1:12:12when it was supposed to be completely different.

1:12:23 > 1:12:26It's fairly deep, about two foot down.

1:12:26 > 1:12:32Slugs, worms, beetles, spiders...

1:12:32 > 1:12:37And they have their own personal entrance and exit

1:12:37 > 1:12:41route to our house.

1:12:42 > 1:12:47We had a leak on Sunday that's just drenched the walls and ceiling,

1:12:47 > 1:12:52and nothing has been fixed and we are just left with a hole.

1:12:52 > 1:12:55We've got cracks running down and it seems to be cracking

1:12:55 > 1:12:59from up by the roof.

1:12:59 > 1:13:01This crack was here pretty much from when we moved in.

1:13:01 > 1:13:08There must be some kind of movement going on.

1:13:08 > 1:13:12I'm not crying, although I am cross.

1:13:40 > 1:13:46The quality of workmanship is getting worse in the industry,

1:13:46 > 1:13:49and the only one-word answer to how it is, is atrocious.

1:13:49 > 1:13:53How people can walk away and give someone the keys to their home

1:13:53 > 1:13:57when there's a great big hole in the wall or the porch roof isn't

1:13:57 > 1:14:00finished or something I don't understand.

1:14:00 > 1:14:02I don't know how they can go home and sleep nights

1:14:02 > 1:14:04doing that to people.

1:14:04 > 1:14:08It's just not right.

1:14:08 > 1:14:11From the chief executive in the boardroom to the man on site

1:14:11 > 1:14:14sweeping up after the trades, no one cares and no one

1:14:14 > 1:14:22in the process is really thoroughly checking that the quality

1:14:22 > 1:14:25is going to be there and the buildings and houses comply

1:14:25 > 1:14:28with current building regulations and warranty standards.

1:14:42 > 1:14:45On Karen Stacey Pope's issues - the house-builder Bovis says it's

1:14:45 > 1:14:49absolutely determined to deliver a quality home for Karen,

1:14:49 > 1:14:54that the work had stalled at different stages this year

1:14:54 > 1:14:57because she had not given authority for them to proceed, but it's

1:14:57 > 1:14:59confident the work it proposes will sort the problems.

1:14:59 > 1:15:02We can now speak to Sally Carter.

1:15:02 > 1:15:05She bought a three-bedroom home from Bellway three years ago

1:15:05 > 1:15:06in Liverpool for £168,000.

1:15:06 > 1:15:10She says she had problems within weeks of moving

1:15:10 > 1:15:13in that she is still fighting to get fixed.

1:15:13 > 1:15:17Sarah McMonagle from the Federation of Master Builders.

1:15:17 > 1:15:20And to Paula Higgins, founder of the Home Owners Alliance.

1:15:25 > 1:15:30Welcome all of you. Sally, first time buyer, you bought your home

1:15:30 > 1:15:35using right-to-buy. Why a new build? No problems having to fix up, we

1:15:35 > 1:15:38could just live in.How much research did you do beforehand?Not

1:15:38 > 1:15:43that much research. We actually went to look for somewhere to rent and

1:15:43 > 1:15:47then ended up finding a Bellway estate close to where we wanted.Did

1:15:47 > 1:15:54you get a survey for a new-build? Yes.That showed what?No problems.

1:15:54 > 1:15:58They did all of the house is built on, clay and stuff like that.But

1:15:58 > 1:16:05within weeks of moving in you were having problems. What was going on?

1:16:05 > 1:16:10Within the first month we reported a leak in our kitchen which has only

1:16:10 > 1:16:13just been fixed properly last month. Now the kitchen's rotten in certain

1:16:13 > 1:16:18areas. We need plaster board replacing which they are refusing to

1:16:18 > 1:16:24replace, they are saying it absorbs water so it's fine. They agreed to

1:16:24 > 1:16:27replace the kitchen unit doors because one of them is rotten. It's

1:16:27 > 1:16:32an ongoing battle to get anything done.A spokesperson for Bellway

1:16:32 > 1:16:37told us: They've dealt with every problem and rectified them all.No.

1:16:37 > 1:16:41We have reported them to the regulators over our garden problem.

1:16:41 > 1:16:45It took them nine months to replace that when we first initially paid

1:16:45 > 1:16:50for it but it's still water logged and damaged. On top of our property

1:16:50 > 1:16:54price we paid £645 for our garden to be done and it's just a bog.Because

1:16:54 > 1:17:00it's flooded?Yes. Apparently they are only responsible for the first

1:17:00 > 1:17:03three metres of our garden.OK. That is probably in a contract somewhere

1:17:03 > 1:17:08isn't it?The regulators have confirmed that is true.OK. But

1:17:08 > 1:17:11presumably you didn't notice that? No.But you weren't expecting there

1:17:11 > 1:17:16to be any problems anyway?Also they built the garden, if they are not

1:17:16 > 1:17:21responsible for it, who is.Bellway say they have dealt with every

1:17:21 > 1:17:24problem and rectified them all. Tell us about the stress involved when

1:17:24 > 1:17:29things go wrong?It's exhausting. You contact them, they promise

1:17:29 > 1:17:32they'll call you back, it's days and you are chasing them again. We have

1:17:32 > 1:17:36sent so many e-mails. Yesterday I rang them seven times after we had a

1:17:36 > 1:17:40leak in our hallway. They just don't get back to you, it's like they

1:17:40 > 1:17:45don't care.But they have rectified some problems?Yes. They have fixed

1:17:45 > 1:17:50small problems, but in fixing some problems they have damaged stuff and

1:17:50 > 1:17:53that's taken months to get fixed. New homes are guaranteed by the

1:17:53 > 1:17:58builder for two years, most come with a ten-year warranty from the

1:17:58 > 1:18:03national house building council. Has that been any use to you?To be

1:18:03 > 1:18:06honest, we only went to the new homes building council a month ago

1:18:06 > 1:18:10because we knew we weren't going to get anywhere with the garden.

1:18:10 > 1:18:15Bellway are communicating with us about the kitchen but we have asked

1:18:15 > 1:18:19them about the garden and they are ignoring the e-mails, I chase them

1:18:19 > 1:18:22again and they say they are only responsible for the first three

1:18:22 > 1:18:28metres.Sarah from the National Federation of House builders. You

1:18:28 > 1:18:30represent smaller developers, is that correct?Yes.Are you going to

1:18:30 > 1:18:35tell me this never happens with smaller developers or are you going

1:18:35 > 1:18:41to acknowledge it does happen?It can happen. We did some research

1:18:41 > 1:18:44last month showing that you are twice as likely to be satisfied with

1:18:44 > 1:18:50the quality of your new home if you buy it from an SME house builder.

1:18:50 > 1:18:57SME?Small and medium-sized, sorry. The issue tends to be more of a

1:18:57 > 1:19:00problem when you are building from a large house builder like Sally has.

1:19:00 > 1:19:05It's not good for the reputation full stop is it?No and we have an

1:19:05 > 1:19:09image problem which is why we have a skills shortage. Across-the-board,

1:19:09 > 1:19:12people think new house building is less high quality than what we were

1:19:12 > 1:19:15building say a hundred years ago. That's something we need to address.

1:19:15 > 1:19:21OK. Paula, is it true you have more protection as a consumer if you buy

1:19:21 > 1:19:26a toaster compared to buying a new build home?Very much so. You get

1:19:26 > 1:19:30this contract which you can't read and don't even get a copy of the

1:19:30 > 1:19:44plan. When you want to complain and get fixed, you can't. If they are

1:19:44 > 1:19:49not coming to get things fixed, let the house buyer keep some money

1:19:49 > 1:19:54back. It's an absolute mess the way the consumer rights and after-care

1:19:54 > 1:19:58service is.I spoke to a Conservative MP earlier who said she

1:19:58 > 1:20:01thought it was a problem when I put this to her that building inspectors

1:20:01 > 1:20:07are too close to some of the big developers. She thought that was an

1:20:07 > 1:20:14issue, too cosy. What do you think? I think the problem is that

1:20:14 > 1:20:18consumers think the inspections and third party inspections, they're

1:20:18 > 1:20:23feeling that they have some rights, but it doesn't really happen. It's a

1:20:23 > 1:20:26varied spot check. Things go wrong, it's up to the builder to put things

1:20:26 > 1:20:31right and it's not the inspectors, you can't go back to them and say,

1:20:31 > 1:20:33this hasn't met minimum building standards, so there needs to be

1:20:33 > 1:20:38something done.What is your advice for people who, and we have heard

1:20:38 > 1:20:41from so many morning across the country, all sorts of different

1:20:41 > 1:20:44developers, what should they do if there is a problem, they are not

1:20:44 > 1:20:48getting any help from the developers, where do they go next?

1:20:48 > 1:20:55It's difficult because there is lots of standards redress things. They

1:20:55 > 1:21:00don't even bother going because the average payout was £639 for massive,

1:21:00 > 1:21:06massive problems. We say people should get an independent inspection

1:21:06 > 1:21:10done or survey, within the first two years. If you have somebody on your

1:21:10 > 1:21:15side, the expert witness side, they might help you get things right. But

1:21:15 > 1:21:18eventually people are so desperate, they are coming to places wanting to

1:21:18 > 1:21:23be heard. We are asking Government to take a look at, it's not just

1:21:23 > 1:21:26about quantity of homes, but it's about the quality and the whole

1:21:26 > 1:21:30sector needs to be looked at.Yes. That is how bad it is, people are

1:21:30 > 1:21:34coming to journalists. That's how desperate it is. Nick is in

1:21:34 > 1:21:38Winchester. Karen is in Leicester. They've been watching the programme

1:21:38 > 1:21:41this morning. Thank you very much for talking to us. Nick you moved

1:21:41 > 1:21:46into a new build three years ago, how's it been?Pretty miserable

1:21:46 > 1:21:55actually. Three years in, we have 26 defects that were identified and

1:21:55 > 1:22:00ordered to be rectified by the NHBC. The national house building council?

1:22:00 > 1:22:11That's right. And they've not put any of these things right yet. That

1:22:11 > 1:22:18includes serious breaches of building regulations. Key safety

1:22:18 > 1:22:26fixtures are missing, problems with plumbing, and there's wastage from

1:22:26 > 1:22:32missing insulation in the home. It's been an enormous battle to get

1:22:32 > 1:22:41anywhere at all with this.OK. How frustrating is it?Well, it's

1:22:41 > 1:22:46completely maddening. I spend hours every week and have done for three

1:22:46 > 1:22:53years getting reports which are then ignored, getting the NHBC on board

1:22:53 > 1:22:56and then they are unable to get builders to put things right. I

1:22:56 > 1:23:01think a big part of it is that there's just not enough knowledge in

1:23:01 > 1:23:04the industry from the installers through to the site managers and

1:23:04 > 1:23:08even through to building control of what the regulations actually mean.

1:23:08 > 1:23:13So...That is alarming isn't it? If that is genuinely the case that, is

1:23:13 > 1:23:20alarming?Yes. I've certainly seen several plumbers for example and a

1:23:20 > 1:23:24couple of site managers who we are quite unaware of the regulations.

1:23:24 > 1:23:27Obviously they've been installing systems of the kind that we have

1:23:27 > 1:23:29here for a whole career without ever doing it right.

1:23:29 > 1:23:34Wow. Let me bring in Karen, you are in Leicester, how are you, good

1:23:34 > 1:23:39morning?Hello.Thank you for talking to us, tell us about your

1:23:39 > 1:23:45own situation?We found problems the first day we moved in. We looked at

1:23:45 > 1:23:52the outside walls and they are in a nutshell, not built through NHBC

1:23:52 > 1:23:54technical requirements or specifications.How did you know

1:23:54 > 1:23:58that on day one?We stood outside and the house just didn't look

1:23:58 > 1:24:04right. It was wobbly, the mortar lines didn't line up, some were

1:24:04 > 1:24:08thick, some were thin, you could see bulges in the brick work and we

1:24:08 > 1:24:11thought, you know what, we can't articulate this ourselves, we need

1:24:11 > 1:24:17professional help. So we engaged a building inspector, he did a snag

1:24:17 > 1:24:23report inside and out, but the main problem we have had to deal with is

1:24:23 > 1:24:30the outside which we have had problems with.

1:24:30 > 1:24:35PROBLEM WITH SOUND. So hang on, you paid for two

1:24:35 > 1:24:40independent reports?Yes.And you have to do that in order to prove to

1:24:40 > 1:24:44the builders that there's a problem with the building work?Yes. They

1:24:44 > 1:24:47just don't seem to understand. They don't seem to be able to understand

1:24:47 > 1:24:53the contents of the reports. They come back to us asking us for

1:24:53 > 1:24:57clarification of the points that are made in the report which is really,

1:24:57 > 1:25:00really worrying. If they don't understand the regulations, why on

1:25:00 > 1:25:06earth are they building houses?It's real stress for you isn't it, Karen,

1:25:06 > 1:25:10it's obvious.It's been an absolute nightmare, several of my neighbours

1:25:10 > 1:25:23too. We are all battling different things and we just get nowhere.

1:25:23 > 1:25:34PROBLEM WITH SOUND. We paid for this. Our neighbours

1:25:34 > 1:25:38have had building societies that aren't bothered that the homes

1:25:38 > 1:25:43they've paid for aren't fit for purpose. It's so upsetting. The

1:25:43 > 1:25:47whole estate here is in a right mess.I'm really sorry to hear that,

1:25:47 > 1:25:51Karen. Thank you for coming on the programme and Nick as well. We wish

1:25:51 > 1:25:56you all the best.The complaint procedure, you get nowhere. It wears

1:25:56 > 1:26:02you down. A lot of the young couples around us, they give up. They have

1:26:02 > 1:26:09to go to work. They don't have time to complain. I've spent hours a week

1:26:09 > 1:26:16fighting these people. The NHBC is in their pocket, it's just a battle.

1:26:16 > 1:26:22OK. I'm sure the NHBC would deny that, but I hear what you are

1:26:22 > 1:26:26saying. Let me read a statement which will have no consolation for

1:26:26 > 1:26:31you, I know that, but I'm going to read it from th Department of

1:26:31 > 1:26:35Communities and Local Government anyway. : The Government is looking

1:26:35 > 1:26:40at bold options to improve redress, including housing where there should

1:26:40 > 1:26:45be a single ombudsman. It could help drive up stunned Ards in the

1:26:45 > 1:26:49industry and increase protection for consumers. Thank you all very much

1:26:49 > 1:26:51for coming on the programme. Thank you.

1:26:53 > 1:26:55The government has outlined steps to tackle "race bias"

1:26:55 > 1:26:58in the criminal justice system in England and Wales.

1:26:58 > 1:27:01It follows a report from Labour MP David Lammy, which found the system

1:27:01 > 1:27:03discriminated against people from ethnic minority backgrounds.

1:27:03 > 1:27:07That review, published in September, said that people from black,

1:27:07 > 1:27:12Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds make up 25%

1:27:12 > 1:27:16of the prison population and 41% of the youth justice system,

1:27:16 > 1:27:19but only 14% of the general population.

1:27:19 > 1:27:23David Lammy made 35 recommendations to increase fairness,

1:27:23 > 1:27:25transparency and trust.

1:27:25 > 1:27:28But we already know one will not be acted upon -

1:27:28 > 1:27:31the proposal for a national target on the ethnic makeup

1:27:31 > 1:27:33of the judiciary.

1:27:33 > 1:27:37Currently 11% of magistrates and 7% of judges are from

1:27:37 > 1:27:40a minority ethnic background.

1:27:40 > 1:27:42We can speak now to Nequela Whitterker.

1:27:42 > 1:27:45She's a former gang member turned author who now

1:27:45 > 1:27:47works with young people.

1:27:47 > 1:27:51Jeremy Crook is from the Black Training and Enterprise group,

1:27:51 > 1:27:54who campaign for equal opportunities and was part of David Lammy's expert

1:27:54 > 1:27:56panel who produced the report.

1:27:56 > 1:27:59And joining us from his court chamber is Peter Herbert.

1:27:59 > 1:28:07He's a judge and chair of the Society of Black Lawyers.

1:28:07 > 1:28:10Hi all of you. Thank you for coming in. I'm going to ask you about the

1:28:10 > 1:28:16proposal that won't be acted upon, this sort of quota system in terms

1:28:16 > 1:28:19of shaking up the judiciary, if I can put it like that. How do you

1:28:19 > 1:28:25respond to that?It's very hard. It's hard for people of colour to

1:28:25 > 1:28:31even get in there. As you notice, the prison system, the magistrates

1:28:31 > 1:28:37system is all forms of white males predominantly. At the moment, it's,

1:28:37 > 1:28:41to shape change, we need to have discussions and tap into people like

1:28:41 > 1:28:44us, active members of the community who're doing active work behind

1:28:44 > 1:28:48this. But at the moment, we don't seem to have a voice or platform for

1:28:48 > 1:28:52us to be able to get through the gateways.Jeremy, what is your

1:28:52 > 1:28:55reaction to this particular recommendation which we know is

1:28:55 > 1:28:59definitely not going to happen?It's an important recommendation. The

1:28:59 > 1:29:02judiciary should reflect society so setting a target over nearly ten

1:29:02 > 1:29:08years to have 40% of judges from BM E-bacc grounds is not overly

1:29:08 > 1:29:11ambitious, so it's important the Government reconsiders that target

1:29:11 > 1:29:16and the judiciary and makes sure the whole system reflects society.Peter

1:29:16 > 1:29:23Herbert, hello.Good morning. I'm not speaking in any traditional

1:29:23 > 1:29:26capacity, just as the chair of the Society of Black lawyers.Fair

1:29:26 > 1:29:32enough. What is your reaction to the fact that that won't be acted upon?

1:29:32 > 1:29:37It's deeply disappointed. The Government are not serious about

1:29:37 > 1:29:41adopting the Lammy recommendations. We have been asking about this since

1:29:41 > 1:29:48we met Lord McKay in December 1988, this is long overdue and discipline

1:29:48 > 1:29:56needs to have a target for the recruitment of BMA judges because

1:29:56 > 1:29:59the Supreme Court downwards needs to have reviews for those sitting in

1:29:59 > 1:30:05judgment.Kung of conceivable reasons why a target system is not

1:30:05 > 1:30:10going to be introduced?Well, there is no good reason. If the targets

1:30:10 > 1:30:14were introduced across the public sector after the Stephen Lawrence

1:30:14 > 1:30:20inquiry, it made an enormous difference to the recruitment of BME

1:30:20 > 1:30:24professionals and lay people across-the-board. The magistrates

1:30:24 > 1:30:27and judiciary is no different. You have to have a target to work

1:30:27 > 1:30:31towards. One thing which we think has not been adepresed by the

1:30:31 > 1:30:36Government is the reform of the sentencing guidelines council which

1:30:36 > 1:30:40sets the parameters of defendants and also the need to monitor

1:30:40 > 1:30:44sentencing decisions by each court centre. You must have that,

1:30:44 > 1:30:51otherwise you won't know whether any progress has been made or not.

1:30:51 > 1:30:55Wrightthe government has targets in place for ethnic minority employment

1:30:55 > 1:31:00in the country to achieve 20% by 2020 so there are targets in place

1:31:00 > 1:31:03in different areas of society and the workforce. I don't see why they

1:31:03 > 1:31:09can't adopt it for the judiciary.To be fair, the Justice Secretary said

1:31:09 > 1:31:13that the government is responding positively to all of the enquiries,

1:31:13 > 1:31:16-- enquiry macro's 35 recommendations but this one they

1:31:16 > 1:31:20don't believe setting targets is the right way to tackle

1:31:20 > 1:31:22underrepresentation in the judiciary. You accept they will

1:31:22 > 1:31:26follow through with the others?It's nice they will follow through with

1:31:26 > 1:31:31the others but this is the main one, I made up that 14% of the criminal

1:31:31 > 1:31:34system after certain stage and it would have been nice to see someone

1:31:34 > 1:31:39in the courtroom or a magistrate who represented me, there was no one who

1:31:39 > 1:31:42represented my background, no BME, I was incarcerated for four years and

1:31:42 > 1:31:46there was no one in the prison system I could relate to so it is

1:31:46 > 1:31:52important.Is that imported for rehabilitation?How can you

1:31:52 > 1:31:56rehabilitate someone you relate to? It was having more people in there

1:31:56 > 1:32:00you can relate to and open up to and for me it was colour, to be able to

1:32:00 > 1:32:05find someone relate able of colour who identified with that and not

1:32:05 > 1:32:09being able to identify or touch base with that makes you feel like, how

1:32:09 > 1:32:12does the system rehabilitate somebody if they don't identify the

1:32:12 > 1:32:19main need which is our colour, our race, people to represent our voice.

1:32:19 > 1:32:22Yes, and we certainly need more prison officers, it is not just

1:32:22 > 1:32:26judges, it is police and prison officers and probation officers, we

1:32:26 > 1:32:29need to make sure they are representative of the country and

1:32:29 > 1:32:3314% is the bare minimum as far as I'm concerned. All the

1:32:33 > 1:32:36recommendations are important. We met with the Secretary of State

1:32:36 > 1:32:39yesterday and he says he is committed to implementing the

1:32:39 > 1:32:48recommendations except that one, the other 34 are crucial.Give the

1:32:48 > 1:32:50audience an idea of some of the other recommendations.To increase

1:32:50 > 1:32:53the workforce diversity of prison officers, for example, but we also

1:32:53 > 1:32:55want to make sure people are treated fairly and equally in prison and in

1:32:55 > 1:32:58the community by the system to make sure all outcomes are fair for

1:32:58 > 1:33:01everyone and we need the government to act on recommendations. They will

1:33:01 > 1:33:06put in place a high-level board at it needs to have external input from

1:33:06 > 1:33:09experts and organisation like Nequela and other people to make

1:33:09 > 1:33:14sure there's an external voice and a critical framework.Peter Herbert,

1:33:14 > 1:33:19do you acknowledge that it looks like 34 out of 35 recommendations,

1:33:19 > 1:33:23the government will act upon?It looks as if they are but we have

1:33:23 > 1:33:27been here before, this is the government has known in its various

1:33:27 > 1:33:31forms the 25 years, it is not a new problem and therefore we think there

1:33:31 > 1:33:34has to be a timescale and there has to be monitoring by outside

1:33:34 > 1:33:39organisations like ourselves and other organisations, such as the

1:33:39 > 1:33:43Association of Muslim lawyers, to make sure this is drill down into

1:33:43 > 1:33:47the change in every court and magistrates centre, and in all the

1:33:47 > 1:33:50areas where discretion has been exercised negatively against members

1:33:50 > 1:33:56of the BME community. Finally, the amount of confidence we have is a

1:33:56 > 1:33:59diverse society is measured by who sits in judgment over us and you can

1:33:59 > 1:34:03see by the rally action of the local community to the Grenfell Tower

1:34:03 > 1:34:08inquiry that's not having a diverse panel of members to sit with a High

1:34:08 > 1:34:14Court judge seriously undermine the confidence of communities and this

1:34:14 > 1:34:17is exactly the same but even more so when you come to the issues of

1:34:17 > 1:34:20justice.Thank you for joining us. Peter Herbert is a judge and a chair

1:34:20 > 1:34:23of the Society of Black lawyers, Jeremy Crook, thank you from the

1:34:23 > 1:34:26Black training and enterprise group who campaign for equal

1:34:26 > 1:34:30opportunities, part of the expert panel convened by Labour MP David

1:34:30 > 1:34:33Lamerat and Nequela Whitaker was also a member. Thank you for joining

1:34:33 > 1:34:34us.

1:34:34 > 1:34:39Still to come.

1:34:39 > 1:34:42We'll speak to the grandparents of a four-year-old child

1:34:42 > 1:34:44who has been missing since the summer and is believed

1:34:44 > 1:34:46to be with her mother, who suffers from schizophrenia.

1:34:46 > 1:34:51A judge says the mother poses a real risk to the little girl's safety.

1:34:51 > 1:34:53And we'll be live at the court where Arthur Collins

1:34:53 > 1:34:55is being sentenced for an acid attack in an East London nightclub.

1:34:59 > 1:35:02Time for the latest news - here's Ben.

1:35:02 > 1:35:08Investigators say a train which crashed in the US state

1:35:08 > 1:35:10of Washington, killing three people, was travelling at 80 mph

1:35:10 > 1:35:12in a 30 mph zone.

1:35:12 > 1:35:15Around 70 people were injured, ten seriously, when the train

1:35:15 > 1:35:19plunged off a bridge onto a motorway below.

1:35:19 > 1:35:22Four men from South Yorkshire and Derbyshire have been arrested

1:35:22 > 1:35:24on suspicion of terrorism offences.

1:35:24 > 1:35:27Three of the men, who are aged 22, 36 and 41, were arrested

1:35:27 > 1:35:30at their homes in Sheffield.

1:35:30 > 1:35:34A fourth man, who's 31, was arrested at an address in Chesterfield.

1:35:34 > 1:35:38All of the men have been taken to a police station

1:35:38 > 1:35:40in West Yorkshire for questioning.

1:35:40 > 1:35:43Parents, teachers and young people in England are being asked

1:35:43 > 1:35:47to suggest what should be included in new guidelines for

1:35:47 > 1:35:50teaching children about sex and relationships.

1:35:50 > 1:35:54The current guidelines have not been updated since the year 2000

1:35:54 > 1:35:58and don't address issues such as sexting and online pornography.

1:35:58 > 1:36:01Ministers say this is "unacceptable" and want

1:36:01 > 1:36:09new guidance for autumn 2019.

1:36:09 > 1:36:16One e-mail says, "I'm 15 and came out my understanding parents to use

1:36:16 > 1:36:19ago and wanted a relationship with a boy at school but as we were both 16

1:36:19 > 1:36:22at his parents did not know about his sexuality, my parents stopped

1:36:22 > 1:36:27seeing each other due to the consequences. I could do with proper

1:36:27 > 1:36:30advice from school. Will they accept an open relationship with another

1:36:30 > 1:36:35underage boy? Am I to have a boyfriend as other heterosexual

1:36:35 > 1:36:38teenagers openly do? I know it's OK to be gay and my parents tell me

1:36:38 > 1:36:43this but there are practical issues to work through. Sex education and

1:36:43 > 1:36:48relationship lessons could help". C says, "I was excluded from sex

1:36:48 > 1:36:51education at school and you nothing about it, sadly a short time later I

1:36:51 > 1:36:58was groomed and abused by a man and am still suffering from the abuse.

1:36:58 > 1:37:00Appropriate education should be included for all as early as

1:37:00 > 1:37:05possible and be structured as the child grows older". Chris tweets,

1:37:05 > 1:37:09"As a teacher, I've never received any training to deliver sex

1:37:09 > 1:37:14education or LGBT issues and as a teacher of 11-18 -year-olds, it can

1:37:14 > 1:37:17be difficult and you don't always feel comfortable talking about such

1:37:17 > 1:37:21issues". Neil says, "Sex and relationship education should

1:37:21 > 1:37:24include things about pornography, consent and transgender issues

1:37:24 > 1:37:29buzzword. Keep them coming in.

1:37:29 > 1:37:30Sport now with Holly.

1:37:30 > 1:37:33World champion sprinter Justin Gatlin has issued a statement

1:37:33 > 1:37:36insisting he is a clean athlete after doping allegations were made

1:37:36 > 1:37:37against his coach and agent.

1:37:37 > 1:37:40An investigation is under way after the Daily Telegraph said

1:37:40 > 1:37:42undercover reporters were offered "performance-enhancing drugs" by

1:37:42 > 1:37:44Dennis Mitchell and Robert Wagner.

1:37:44 > 1:37:48Both deny the allegations.

1:37:48 > 1:37:51Sam Allardyce has his eyes on the prize of a top-half finish

1:37:51 > 1:37:54in the Premier League after former strugglers

1:37:54 > 1:37:56Everton beat Swansea 3-1, their fourth win in five games.

1:37:56 > 1:38:00And West Ham could be without midfielder Manuel Lanzini

1:38:00 > 1:38:04for tonight's Carabao Cup quarterfinal with Arsenal,

1:38:04 > 1:38:09after he was charged with diving in Saturday's game against Stoke.

1:38:09 > 1:38:12More coming up on all of those stories on the BBC News Channel

1:38:12 > 1:38:17through the day.

1:38:17 > 1:38:20Four people are being questioned by

1:38:20 > 1:38:25police in West Yorkshire.

1:38:25 > 1:38:32On suspicion of plotting terrorist attacks. Danny Savage is following

1:38:32 > 1:38:33the latest.

1:38:33 > 1:38:37Where were the resonate?Three address in Sheffield, one in

1:38:37 > 1:38:40Chesterfield, the Bin Amir 's Brook area of the city reported hearing an

1:38:40 > 1:38:43explosion early this morning which has been clarified as a forceful

1:38:43 > 1:38:47entry to one of the addresses in the Sheffield area. -- in the media 's

1:38:47 > 1:38:54Brook area. Three men in Sheffield and one man in Chesterfield are

1:38:54 > 1:38:58being questioned at a police station in west Yorkshire now. We don't know

1:38:58 > 1:39:01any details about the allegations they have been arrested over

1:39:01 > 1:39:04although it is the counterterrorism unit to have put out a brief

1:39:04 > 1:39:06statement clarifying what they have done this morning, those men will

1:39:06 > 1:39:10now be questioned and the case will move on from there. But people I

1:39:10 > 1:39:13suspect that those addresses where the men were addressed it will be

1:39:13 > 1:39:15wondering what another's happened. We don't know yet. We're waiting for

1:39:15 > 1:39:23more details. -- where the men were arrested.Police are telling people

1:39:23 > 1:39:27not to be alarmed?Police have said they recognise local people have

1:39:27 > 1:39:30concerns as a result of the activity and would ask people to remain alert

1:39:30 > 1:39:34but not alarmed and they are grateful for the assistant and

1:39:34 > 1:39:36understanding of local people. Residents will be kept as informed

1:39:36 > 1:39:40as possible and police say they are grateful for the understanding,

1:39:40 > 1:39:43patience and support while enquiries continue. Ongoing things but a

1:39:43 > 1:39:48message of reassurance that there is no ongoing incident as such, but

1:39:48 > 1:39:51these men have been arrested this morning and detained for

1:39:51 > 1:39:54questioning.Thank you, Danny.

1:39:54 > 1:39:57Elliana Shand from London celebrates her fourth birthday today.

1:39:57 > 1:40:01She's been missing since May.

1:40:01 > 1:40:04She's thought to be with her mum Jessica, who has schizophrenia

1:40:04 > 1:40:13and obsessive compulsive disorder.

1:40:13 > 1:40:16In the time that the little girl's been missing,

1:40:16 > 1:40:18it's believed she's travelled to Jamacia and the US but no one

1:40:18 > 1:40:20knows where she is right now.

1:40:20 > 1:40:22In an unusual move, a judge has released Elliana's name

1:40:22 > 1:40:25and photograph in the hope that someone will be able

1:40:25 > 1:40:27to help locate her.

1:40:27 > 1:40:37The judge says that her mum, "under stress, no longer

1:40:37 > 1:40:40hallucinations, she poses a very real risk to her daughter's safety".

1:40:40 > 1:40:45Elliana's paternal grandparents Sean and Eileen Doyle have been searching

1:40:45 > 1:40:48for her for the last six months and at the moment, have

1:40:48 > 1:40:53no idea where she is.

1:40:53 > 1:40:55She's been taken to, originally, we saw her

1:40:55 > 1:40:59on Saturday the 13th of May,

1:40:59 > 1:41:02we had a three-hour visit every Saturday in Godalming

1:41:02 > 1:41:06and on the 15th of May she was taken to Jamaica.

1:41:06 > 1:41:09And then subsequently we think she was moved

1:41:09 > 1:41:13from Jamaica to the USA, from the USA to Sweden, from Sweden

1:41:13 > 1:41:19through Europe into Spain, and that's where we lost them.

1:41:19 > 1:41:21Right.

1:41:21 > 1:41:26So we are not sure if they are in Spain or in the UK.

1:41:26 > 1:41:29We are not even sure if they are together.

1:41:29 > 1:41:33So you don't know if Elliana is with her mum?

1:41:33 > 1:41:36No.

1:41:36 > 1:41:38Strangers...

1:41:38 > 1:41:39Or with her other grandma?

1:41:39 > 1:41:41Yes, we don't, we don't, because we've got no idea

1:41:41 > 1:41:44where she is, which is frustrating in this day and age.

1:41:44 > 1:41:46And we are showing pictures of Elliana right now, and actually

1:41:46 > 1:41:47it's her birthday today.

1:41:47 > 1:41:50She's four, four today.

1:41:50 > 1:41:54She loves a good party and a bag of crisps.

1:41:54 > 1:41:56And you desperately want to see her.

1:41:56 > 1:41:57Yes.

1:41:57 > 1:41:58Yes, and Jessica.

1:41:58 > 1:42:02Yes, and her mum. Her mum.

1:42:02 > 1:42:07Her mum is a very good mum, she's just not well and she has to be...

1:42:07 > 1:42:09You know, people have to realise she is a good mum,

1:42:09 > 1:42:13she is not well and we want to find them both but we genuinely don't

1:42:13 > 1:42:15know where they are.

1:42:15 > 1:42:20The judge dealing with this case in the family court is pretty

1:42:20 > 1:42:23certain that Elliana's other grandma knows where the little girl is.

1:42:23 > 1:42:26Yes.

1:42:26 > 1:42:30Why is it not as simple as saying, "Please tell us where she is"?

1:42:30 > 1:42:38They did, they did ask and she didn't tell.

1:42:38 > 1:42:42I mean, it's difficult, you know?

1:42:42 > 1:42:45We want her to tell her, but it's her daughter.

1:42:45 > 1:42:51I've got a bizarre understanding of why she wouldn't tell.

1:42:51 > 1:42:56But I think my own opinion maybe is, because Jessica is not well,

1:42:56 > 1:42:59maybe there's some stigma there to her being ill

1:42:59 > 1:43:02and they don't want to address the fact that she's ill.

1:43:02 > 1:43:04We didn't know she was ill, you know.

1:43:04 > 1:43:08She took her medication obviously when we saw her.

1:43:08 > 1:43:11There was only the one time we think she didn't take it,

1:43:11 > 1:43:13is when something happened.

1:43:13 > 1:43:18She has schizophrenia and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

1:43:18 > 1:43:20Yes, she always looked after Elliana.

1:43:20 > 1:43:24Elliana was spotless, you know.

1:43:24 > 1:43:28And in fact, that's the only thing we would say, was sometimes

1:43:28 > 1:43:31"She looks after that child, where does she find the time?"

1:43:31 > 1:43:34I mean, there will be people watching who will say,

1:43:34 > 1:43:36because the mum has got mental health problems, it doesn't

1:43:36 > 1:43:38mean she can't look after her daughter well.

1:43:38 > 1:43:41In fact, the judge does talk about the relationship

1:43:41 > 1:43:48between mum and daughter - very warm, very affectionate,

1:43:48 > 1:43:53but also goes on to say, you know, even in ideal circumstances,

1:43:53 > 1:43:55the mother's capacity to meet her daughter's needs

1:43:55 > 1:43:58was barely satisfactory.

1:43:58 > 1:44:00But it's abundantly clear that under stress,

1:44:00 > 1:44:03no longer taking anti-psychotic medication, perhaps in the grip

1:44:03 > 1:44:05of auditory hallucinations, she poses a very real risk

1:44:05 > 1:44:07to her daughter's safety.

1:44:07 > 1:44:11Yes, which is sad.

1:44:11 > 1:44:13Bizarrely, though, it doesn't make her a bad mum.

1:44:13 > 1:44:14It just makes her ill.

1:44:14 > 1:44:17I think if it was any other illness, she'd probably get a lot

1:44:17 > 1:44:19more sympathy, you know.

1:44:19 > 1:44:24And we've got sympathy for her. We've never had a problem.

1:44:24 > 1:44:26Last time we went to court, I saw her and I smiled

1:44:26 > 1:44:28at her and she smiled back at me.

1:44:28 > 1:44:30I just said, "What's going on?"

1:44:30 > 1:44:33You know?

1:44:33 > 1:44:38And then she was pulled away. That's her now on the screen.

1:44:38 > 1:44:40She's a lovely-looking girl, she's got a gorgeous daughter.

1:44:40 > 1:44:43We are very lucky our son met her, to be honest.

1:44:43 > 1:44:45They may not be together, which is quite sad, but they had

1:44:45 > 1:44:49Elliana and we are grandparents.

1:44:49 > 1:44:52Our job is to look after the grandkids and it's a good job

1:44:52 > 1:44:55to have, and we just want to look after her.

1:44:55 > 1:44:59And we are not at any stage trying to take her child.

1:44:59 > 1:45:02Our job is to look after her until she's better and we've always

1:45:02 > 1:45:04said that from day one.

1:45:04 > 1:45:08And we were approached, we've never gone to get Elliana.

1:45:08 > 1:45:15We were approached by social services and so it was left

1:45:15 > 1:45:20to us and we said, "Yes, we will look after her.

1:45:20 > 1:45:21"It's not a problem".

1:45:21 > 1:45:23Not for one minute did we expect...

1:45:23 > 1:45:26We knew things would happen, we knew people would be upset

1:45:26 > 1:45:31and we knew there might be issues but not for one minute...

1:45:31 > 1:45:34Although our son did, we think, that they would up and run.

1:45:34 > 1:45:36Our son did, and mentioned it a few times that they

1:45:36 > 1:45:45would do it, to people.

1:45:45 > 1:45:49Although the judge said he had an understanding and believed the

1:45:49 > 1:45:52grandmother wanted to take her to Jamaica as a final farewell. That is

1:45:52 > 1:45:55how the judge put it. You said earlier something really

1:45:55 > 1:46:00interesting, you have a bizarre understanding about why the other

1:46:00 > 1:46:14grandma is not revealing the information about where she is.

1:46:25 > 1:46:27I think she does know, and the final farewell to Jamaica,

1:46:47 > 1:46:49And you said earlier, Sean, something really interesting,

1:46:49 > 1:46:51you said you have a bizarre understanding about why

1:46:51 > 1:46:53the other grandma is not revealing the information

1:46:53 > 1:46:54about where Elliana is.

1:46:54 > 1:46:56Yes, I mean she did.

1:46:56 > 1:46:57If she even knows it.

1:46:57 > 1:46:59I think she does know, and the final farewell to Jamaica,

1:46:59 > 1:47:02to family, and then America, but then to Sweden and then

1:47:02 > 1:47:03to France and to Spain...

1:47:03 > 1:47:04You know. I can understand.

1:47:04 > 1:47:07I do have a bizarre understanding of why they would do it.

1:47:07 > 1:47:10I don't agree with it, but I do understand why they did it.

1:47:10 > 1:47:13But it's not in the child's interests and it's certainly not

1:47:13 > 1:47:15in Jessica's interests because unless she is somehow

1:47:15 > 1:47:17getting medication from whatever, and I'm guessing it's very hard

1:47:17 > 1:47:21to get that type of medication, and that's one of the reasons

1:47:21 > 1:47:22I thought they'd gone to Europe.

1:47:22 > 1:47:24It's because I thought maybe they'd be able to purchase medicine

1:47:24 > 1:47:28from doctors in Spain and stuff where I think it is a little bit

1:47:28 > 1:47:30easier to get medication, but they have to address

1:47:30 > 1:47:32the fact their daughter is not well.

1:47:32 > 1:47:33And it's not doing her any favours.

1:47:33 > 1:47:36It's not doing any of them any favours, the whole family.

1:47:36 > 1:47:37And we've spoken to them.

1:47:37 > 1:47:38They have called our house.

1:47:38 > 1:47:39Really?

1:47:39 > 1:47:42Yes, they've called the house and we've spoken to them

1:47:42 > 1:47:44and we've said, look, you know, just, just

1:47:44 > 1:47:45you know, give yourself up.

1:47:45 > 1:47:46But they were short conversations.

1:47:46 > 1:47:47How worried are you?

1:47:47 > 1:47:48Very worried.

1:47:48 > 1:47:50Very worried, for both of them.

1:47:50 > 1:47:52Very worried for both of them and we know how it looks.

1:47:52 > 1:47:54Grandparents, you know, want their grandchild.

1:47:54 > 1:47:55It's not like that at all.

1:47:55 > 1:47:58We saw Elliana as and when Jessica wanted us to see her.

1:47:58 > 1:47:59It wasn't every week.

1:47:59 > 1:48:02Now the judge has taken a very unusual step of releasing Elliana's

1:48:02 > 1:48:05name and the photograph of her, photos of her, in the hope

1:48:05 > 1:48:06she can be traced.

1:48:06 > 1:48:09The judge believes she could be in the UK, she could

1:48:09 > 1:48:10possibly be in London.

1:48:10 > 1:48:11Yes, which is crazy.

1:48:11 > 1:48:14I mean we are out and about, handing leaflets out in areas that

1:48:14 > 1:48:15I think they might be.

1:48:15 > 1:48:17We've done, you know, we've done Surrey, Godalming,

1:48:17 > 1:48:19north-west London, west London, missing posters,

1:48:19 > 1:48:19pictures of them all.

1:48:19 > 1:48:21People are very sympathetic.

1:48:21 > 1:48:25But you know, nothing.

1:48:25 > 1:48:28I think if you don't want to be found, especially in London,

1:48:28 > 1:48:31it's quite a sad place if you don't want to be found, you know?

1:48:31 > 1:48:34It's a big place and if you don't want to come out and people

1:48:34 > 1:48:38are looking after you...

1:48:38 > 1:48:42Which is why, you know, I'm hitting certain shops that

1:48:42 > 1:48:45I think they might go to.

1:48:45 > 1:48:50What would you say, both of you, if Jessica was watching right now,

1:48:50 > 1:48:54Elliana's mum was watching right now, what would you

1:48:54 > 1:48:55say directly to her?

1:48:55 > 1:48:58I would say please give us a ring, let us hear Elliana's voice,

1:48:58 > 1:49:01let us hear that you're both OK, and, you know, we need to talk.

1:49:01 > 1:49:05Let's have a meeting.

1:49:05 > 1:49:07We are very happy to meet them.

1:49:07 > 1:49:08Yes, of course.

1:49:08 > 1:49:09Very happy to meet them.

1:49:09 > 1:49:14With solicitors, with whoever, you know.

1:49:14 > 1:49:17They know us, they know we are not bad people and we know

1:49:17 > 1:49:20they are not bad people.

1:49:20 > 1:49:23We are just in this situation that's escalated out of control,

1:49:23 > 1:49:26that's gotten to the highest court of the land, which is bizarre

1:49:26 > 1:49:27that we are even there.

1:49:27 > 1:49:30It's bizarre.

1:49:30 > 1:49:32And that picture that is on the screen now,

1:49:32 > 1:49:34that was the christening that we attended.

1:49:34 > 1:49:37We were all happy, you know?

1:49:37 > 1:49:39We took them out for a meal afterwards.

1:49:39 > 1:49:41And that was just under a year ago?

1:49:41 > 1:49:44Yes, and again, no sign of anything being untoward.

1:49:44 > 1:49:47And then, you know, gone.

1:49:47 > 1:49:51I think something happened, I think there was an argument

1:49:51 > 1:49:53and we never saw Elliana for like three months or something.

1:49:53 > 1:49:59And then we did get to see her again, and then it just