0:00:03 > 0:00:07Hello.
0:00:07 > 0:00:09It's Tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,
0:00:09 > 0:00:11welcome to the programme.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Our top story today -
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Leaked government assessments suggest economic growth
0:00:16 > 0:00:19is going to be lower than it would have been, had Brits voted
0:00:19 > 0:00:24to stay inside the EU.
0:00:24 > 0:00:29I don't believe a word of it. Every forecast from the government to do
0:00:29 > 0:00:33with Brexit, or even to do with the economy, has been wrong.
0:00:33 > 0:00:34Also today - this programme has been told
0:00:34 > 0:00:37the universal credit system could leave up to 1 million working
0:00:37 > 0:00:45people exposed to benefit sanctions once fully rolled out.
0:00:45 > 0:00:52I even had a phone call from the Jobcentre on the day of the funeral.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55They were saying, are you sure you're not lying?
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Really keen to hear from you today - especially if your benefits
0:00:58 > 0:01:00have been sanctioned.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03And the BBC is proposing to cap the pay of its news presenters
0:01:03 > 0:01:04at £320,000 a year.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06It follows mounting criticism of differences between male
0:01:06 > 0:01:09and female pay at the corporation.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Licence-fee payers - get in touch and tell
0:01:11 > 0:01:17us your reaction - is it enough?
0:01:17 > 0:01:27And wherever you work, let us know your equal pay stories this morning.
0:01:27 > 0:01:28Hello.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Throughout the morning, we'll bring you the latest breaking news
0:01:33 > 0:01:35and developing stories - a little later in the programme
0:01:35 > 0:01:40we'll hear from Conservative MP Johnny Mercer, who tells us that
0:01:40 > 0:01:48Theresa May has three months to sort her position out.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -
0:01:54 > 0:01:57use the hashtag #Victorialive and if you text, you will be charged
0:01:57 > 0:01:58at the standard network rate.
0:01:58 > 0:01:59Our top story today...
0:01:59 > 0:02:02The impact of Brexit could leave Britain substantially worse off
0:02:02 > 0:02:04over the next 15 years, according to a leaked
0:02:04 > 0:02:06government document.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09The analysis of three different scenarios has been
0:02:09 > 0:02:12carried out by the office of the Brexit Secretary,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15David Davis, and has been seen by the Buzzfeed News website.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17But Government sources say the document hasn't looked
0:02:17 > 0:02:20at the impact of Number 10's preferred option -
0:02:20 > 0:02:24a bespoke trade deal with the EU.
0:02:24 > 0:02:30Let's talk to Norman at Westminster. Thomas about this report and what
0:02:30 > 0:02:36the government say about it.The response from the government has
0:02:36 > 0:02:38been to say that this is just a draft report, not a definitive
0:02:38 > 0:02:43document and by the way, it doesn't really look at what we are trying to
0:02:43 > 0:02:48achieve, which is a so-called bespoke trade deal, a special deal
0:02:48 > 0:02:53for the UK. But it does go through three fairly fundamental
0:02:53 > 0:02:58possibilities. One is that we don't get any deal, in which case they say
0:02:58 > 0:03:04the economy will take a hit of 8% in the next 15 years. The second option
0:03:04 > 0:03:07is that we get a sort of conventional free-trade agreement
0:03:07 > 0:03:13which other countries have with the EU. That will mean a hit 5%. Or we
0:03:13 > 0:03:17stay in the Norway-style option inside the single market, which is
0:03:17 > 0:03:22the least bad scenario and will only mean a 2% hit. How does this feed
0:03:22 > 0:03:25into the sort of bubbling uncertainty over Brexit? It will
0:03:25 > 0:03:31certainly be seized on by those like Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, who
0:03:31 > 0:03:35will argue that we want to stay close to the EU. We want to hug onto
0:03:35 > 0:03:40the single market and not go too far away. It will strengthen their
0:03:40 > 0:03:43arguments. Interestingly, this morning the Brexiteers have been up
0:03:43 > 0:03:47in arms again because they are suspicious about why this document
0:03:47 > 0:03:51has been leaked. Although they don't name names, it is clear that they
0:03:51 > 0:03:54believe this has been leaked by those who are sympathetic to Mr
0:03:54 > 0:03:59Hammond who are trying to pressurise Theresa May to go for a so-called
0:03:59 > 0:04:03softer Brexit rather than going for a deal that would see us moving
0:04:03 > 0:04:09further away from the EU. So this feeds into what is becoming one of
0:04:09 > 0:04:13the themes of Brexit, the growing sense of the Brexiteers that Mrs May
0:04:13 > 0:04:17might be paving the way for some sort of great betrayal to end up
0:04:17 > 0:04:22with a Brexit where we are not really that different from where we
0:04:22 > 0:04:25are now. Thank you, Norman.More on that come later.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27Ben Brown is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary
0:04:27 > 0:04:29of the rest of the day's news.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Women at the BBC have told MPs they faced "veiled threats"
0:04:32 > 0:04:34when they raised the subject of equal pay.
0:04:34 > 0:04:39The claims, which were made to the Digital, Culture,
0:04:39 > 0:04:41Media and Sport Select Committee, come as the BBC announces
0:04:41 > 0:04:43plans for a pay cap on its news presenters.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Here's our Media Correspondent, David Sillito.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Some of the BBC's top news presenters have already agreed
0:04:48 > 0:04:51to have their pay cut, but this goes a step further -
0:04:51 > 0:04:54a ceiling of £320,000.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57It is still more than twice what the Prime Minister makes,
0:04:57 > 0:05:01and will only affect a handful of people.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04But it is part of a wider audit and report into star salaries.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06One key issue was highlighted by the recent resignation
0:05:06 > 0:05:11of Carrie Gracie as the BBC's China editor.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14She says a comparable male colleague was making more
0:05:14 > 0:05:19than 50% more than her.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22This and other pay issues are now being investigated by MPs.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25What we want from the BBC is, you know, a clear explanation
0:05:25 > 0:05:28of the steps they will take to bring about an open and transparent
0:05:28 > 0:05:32policy on equal pay, and how they account for some
0:05:32 > 0:05:34of the pay decisions that were made in the past,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37that saw some people being paid many times more than their
0:05:37 > 0:05:41colleagues for doing what was essentially the same job.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45All of this follows the publication last summer of the pay deals
0:05:45 > 0:05:46of the BBC's top stars.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49The women campaigning for equal pay say they have not been consulted,
0:05:49 > 0:05:53and so have no confidence in today's report.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56But the BBC says it is committed to equal pay, and says today's
0:05:56 > 0:05:58proposals will make significant changes to the way it
0:05:58 > 0:05:59pays its on-air stars.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02David Sillito, BBC News.
0:06:02 > 0:06:08Detectives believe a serving soldier may have carried out a series
0:06:08 > 0:06:10of armed robberies at homes of wealthy people across
0:06:10 > 0:06:13south-east England, stealing valuables worth £1 million.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Detectives say the intruder has struck seven times in three years
0:06:15 > 0:06:17at properties in Berkshire, Kent, Sussex and Surrey.
0:06:17 > 0:06:24Frankie McCamley reports.
0:06:24 > 0:06:32Caught on CCTV, the burglar police believe to have military training
0:06:33 > 0:06:34or involved in law enforcement.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39Detectives say in each of the seven raids, he has shown signs
0:06:39 > 0:06:42of specialist knowledge and skills, staking out his targets for weeks,
0:06:42 > 0:06:44studying their movements and where they keep their valuables
0:06:44 > 0:06:45before he makes his vicious move.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48He was huge.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51People say he was one man, but he was enormous.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53Susan Morris feared she'd be sexually assaulted and killed
0:06:53 > 0:06:54when her house was targeted.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56He hit me three times on my face.
0:06:56 > 0:06:57It was very, very painful.
0:06:57 > 0:07:04I could not believe the blows kept coming.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06And so I took him to the jewellery.
0:07:06 > 0:07:07I gave him the jewellery.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11It was very frightening.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13The intruder has stolen jewellery, valuables and heirlooms worth
0:07:13 > 0:07:15in total £1 million.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17Detectives believe the raids occur every six months,
0:07:17 > 0:07:23possibly as the offender needs more money.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26We believe this person is not an amateur burglar.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30We think that this is somebody who has specialist skills.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33He uses firearms and cable ties to do this.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36And he has an immense amount of planning and prepping before
0:07:36 > 0:07:39he goes and commits these offences.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Targeting affluent homes in Berkshire, Kent, Surrey
0:07:41 > 0:07:44and Sussex, police say the burglar must now be caught to prevent
0:07:44 > 0:07:45further harm coming to anybody else.
0:07:45 > 0:07:53Frankie McCamley, BBC News.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00The Universal Credit system could leave up to 1 million people exposed
0:08:00 > 0:08:04to it is rolled out, this programme has been told. Sanctions are
0:08:04 > 0:08:07penalties imposed on claimants when they don't meet certain conditions.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11They used to only apply to people who were looking for work, but now
0:08:11 > 0:08:16for the first time under Universal Credit, people who are already
0:08:16 > 0:08:19working could be sanctioned.
0:08:19 > 0:08:27We'll have an exclusive report on this story after the bulletin.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34The Irish government has agreed on a referendum on abortion laws. The
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Republic of Ireland currently has a near total ban on abortion.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42People who get the main disability benefit,
0:08:42 > 0:08:47Personal Independence Payments, are to have their cases reviewed.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49It follows a court ruling that the government had
0:08:49 > 0:08:50discriminated against claimants with mental health conditions.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Officials have calculated that solving the issue
0:08:52 > 0:08:55will cost nearly £4 billion, as our social affairs correspondent
0:08:55 > 0:09:00Michael Buchanan reports.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02Homework time for Chloe Clark and her son, Mackenzie.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04The mum of three suffers from severe anxiety,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08and cannot leave home without a family member.
0:09:08 > 0:09:14But as her condition was caused by a psychological disorder rather
0:09:14 > 0:09:16than a physical problem, she was denied Personal
0:09:16 > 0:09:17Independence Payments.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19I definitely felt discriminated against.
0:09:19 > 0:09:26I can't go out on my own.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28My husband had to quit work to look after me.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I went through a long period of having no contact
0:09:31 > 0:09:32with friends and family.
0:09:32 > 0:09:38My children, they suffered.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40Last month, the High Court found mental health claimants for PIP
0:09:40 > 0:09:41were being blatantly discriminated against.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Ministers decided not to appeal against the
0:09:43 > 0:09:45ruling, which will have major consequences.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47Every person on PIP will have their cases reviewed.
0:09:47 > 0:09:48That is 1.6 million people.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51At the end of the process, around 220,000 people
0:09:51 > 0:09:56will get extra money.
0:09:56 > 0:10:02The changes will cost the Government £3.7 billion by 2022-23.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05It will make a difference to a lot of people's quality of life,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07whether people can travel somewhere, afford to heat their homes,
0:10:07 > 0:10:13have additional food to eat.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Very basic differences it will make to people's quality of life.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Exactly who will benefit from the review is not clear yet,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22but for people like Chloe, there is less reason to feel anger
0:10:22 > 0:10:24towards a system they felt had ignored their illnesses.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Michael Buchanan, BBC News.
0:10:26 > 0:10:31150 skiers have been rescued from a broken chairlift
0:10:31 > 0:10:33in the Austrian mountains.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37Armed forces personnel had to hover above the cables on the side
0:10:37 > 0:10:41of the Kreischberg mountain.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46The authorities say no one was injured after the chairlift
0:10:46 > 0:10:48failure, which was blamed on technical problems.
0:10:48 > 0:10:56That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.
0:10:56 > 0:11:02Thank you for your comments. On BBC pay, this is from Derek. £320,000 is
0:11:02 > 0:11:07still too much, twice what the Prime Minister gets. Overpayment keeps bed
0:11:07 > 0:11:10blockers in place, preventing new talent from coming through. And this
0:11:10 > 0:11:14from Jim - please explain why a news presenter is worth two prime
0:11:14 > 0:11:20ministers? I hope to put that to a representative of BBC management
0:11:20 > 0:11:21later in the programme.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -
0:11:24 > 0:11:27use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and if you text, you will be charged
0:11:27 > 0:11:29at the standard network rate.
0:11:29 > 0:11:36Let's get some sport with Olly Foster.
0:11:36 > 0:11:42Let's talk about what is happening to Beckham in America.Indeed,
0:11:42 > 0:11:47soccer has been a pet project. When he joined LA Galaxy all those years
0:11:47 > 0:11:52ago with great fanfare from Real Madrid, one of the best-known, a
0:11:52 > 0:11:58global brand and a fantastic Galactico, David Beckham. He joined
0:11:58 > 0:12:02LA Galaxy and the MLS, the Major soccer league in the States, but he
0:12:02 > 0:12:05had it written into his contract that one day, here is forward
0:12:05 > 0:12:10thinking for you, he would be able to own his own expansion franchise,
0:12:10 > 0:12:14as the Americans put it, or an American club. That has come to
0:12:14 > 0:12:18fruition. He has got the rights to build in Miami. He got the rights
0:12:18 > 0:12:22four years ago, but has had trouble getting this off the ground because
0:12:22 > 0:12:27he couldn't get the stadium where he wanted it. But now they have found a
0:12:27 > 0:12:3125,000 seater stadium in a pretty unfashionable part of the city, it
0:12:31 > 0:12:35must be said, but it was launched tonight. He will not be the manager.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39He is going to help pull a few strings, get a few mates involved to
0:12:39 > 0:12:44put a super team together. We will hear from him in a moment. First,
0:12:44 > 0:12:50this was the welcome video that was cobbled together by a few locals.
0:12:50 > 0:12:56Welcome to Miami. If you need anything, just let me know. That is
0:12:56 > 0:13:06my town.You need a striker, I'm the guy. You need goals, I'm the guy.We
0:13:06 > 0:13:12can't wait to spend much more time in Miami as a family.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17Congratulations on your new Miami team.I have been able to experience
0:13:17 > 0:13:21different leagues and different cultures. So that is where I can add
0:13:21 > 0:13:25my expertise into this ownership group, and that will be my role, to
0:13:25 > 0:13:29bring great and talented players, but also to build this academy that
0:13:29 > 0:13:33we keep talking about. We have a hotbed of talent in young kids here.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37If we build the right facilities and bring the right coaches, we have a
0:13:37 > 0:13:42hell of a chance of bringing in home-grown talent into this team.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45But not yet. It is going to take a couple of years to build that
0:13:45 > 0:13:49stadium and get it all together. But I'm sure he has the money to do it
0:13:49 > 0:13:51and there are some very wealthy backers behind it.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53And Beckham's former Manchester United team-mate
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Phil Neville has been setting the record straight -
0:13:55 > 0:13:58saying he isn't sexist, Olly?
0:13:58 > 0:14:03David Beckham said his old mate will be incredibly well. We expected him
0:14:03 > 0:14:08to come out wearing a hard hat when he faced the world's Mediate
0:14:08 > 0:14:11yesterday, a massive turnout at St George's Park to grill the new
0:14:11 > 0:14:14England head coach for the first time. He came across well. He
0:14:14 > 0:14:18apologised again for those historic sexist tweets. He justified his
0:14:18 > 0:14:25appointment and his coaching CV, as limited as it is. The FA are also
0:14:25 > 0:14:28under fire because there were some thoughts that they didn't go through
0:14:28 > 0:14:34the due diligence. He didn't even apply for the job, Phil Neville. He
0:14:34 > 0:14:38was bullish about what he hopes to do for the women's game.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42Interestingly, he said he is going to go to his old club, Manchester
0:14:42 > 0:14:48United, because they, despite being the richest club in the world, don't
0:14:48 > 0:14:52have a women's team. Manchester City do. He says he will encourage them
0:14:52 > 0:14:56and says a club the size of United should be the pioneers. There was a
0:14:56 > 0:14:59member of the press who asked him who the top scorer of the Women's
0:14:59 > 0:15:06Super League is at the moment? He said, not Izzy Christensen? And it
0:15:06 > 0:15:10is, the Manchester City player. But he says he will get to grips with
0:15:10 > 0:15:13the women's game.Do I know everything about women's football?
0:15:13 > 0:15:18No, but I will. That is my job. When I went to La Liga, I didn't know
0:15:18 > 0:15:22much about La Liga football. Within a week, I knew everything about
0:15:22 > 0:15:27Valencia. Within six months, I was speaking another language. So I am a
0:15:27 > 0:15:31fast learner. I will throw everything into making sure my 100%
0:15:31 > 0:15:36commitment is to the women's game. He has about six weeks before his
0:15:36 > 0:15:39first match. It is an important women's tournament, with England
0:15:39 > 0:15:46taking on France.
0:15:46 > 0:15:46taking on France.Is
0:15:46 > 0:15:48This programme has been told that the universal credit system
0:15:48 > 0:15:51could leave up to one million working people exposed
0:15:51 > 0:15:54to benefit sanctions once it's fully rolled out.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58A benefit sanction is a penalty imposed on a claimant
0:15:58 > 0:16:03when they don't meet certain conditions - like going
0:16:03 > 0:16:05to job centre appointments.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Each year around 350,000 people are sanctioned which could include
0:16:09 > 0:16:11a significant cut in benefits or them being stopped
0:16:11 > 0:16:15altogether for a period.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20Those sanctions used to only apply to people who were looking for work,
0:16:20 > 0:16:22but now for the first time under universal credit, people
0:16:22 > 0:16:26who are already working could be sanctioned.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Our reporter John Owen meets a man who was financially penalised
0:16:29 > 0:16:32for going to a funeral.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35You wake up in the morning, thinking, is this the final day
0:16:35 > 0:16:41when you're going to be told to leave?
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Waiting for information from the benefits, to see, well,
0:16:43 > 0:16:46from Universal Credit, to see if they are going
0:16:46 > 0:16:49to look into the matters, if they are going to resolve issues,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51if they are going to reinstate the payments
0:16:51 > 0:16:55and reduce the sanctioning.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Until you know that information, then you're going to be worrying
0:16:58 > 0:17:01each day and it's not just a case of each day, it's each hour,
0:17:01 > 0:17:04each minute, because you don't know what's going to happen next.
0:17:04 > 0:17:05And it's distressing.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Nobody should be having to worry like that.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13Conditionality, or the requirement for claimants to do certain things
0:17:13 > 0:17:16like look for work or attend meetings at the job centre in order
0:17:16 > 0:17:19to continue receiving benefits, has been a feature of the welfare
0:17:19 > 0:17:20system for years.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Those who fail to meet their obligations risk
0:17:23 > 0:17:26being sanctioned and could face a partial reduction in benefit
0:17:26 > 0:17:34payments or even their benefits being stopped altogether.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36And now experts have told this programme that a dramatic
0:17:36 > 0:17:38expansion of conditionality in the welfare system that
0:17:38 > 0:17:40puts many more people at risk of being sanctioned
0:17:40 > 0:17:41is currently underway.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44We're talking about the number of people subject to conditionality
0:17:44 > 0:17:46being very close to double.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49And this programme has heard evidence of sanctions
0:17:49 > 0:17:51being applied inappropriately and disproportionately and of people
0:17:51 > 0:17:55being forced into rent arrears, debt and destitution as a result.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57When people are sanctioned, there is an increased likelihood,
0:17:57 > 0:17:59indeed, a definite association that people will end up coming
0:17:59 > 0:18:03to our food banks.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06The Government says that the number of people being sanctioned
0:18:06 > 0:18:10each year is falling, but the welfare system is currently
0:18:10 > 0:18:12undergoing the biggest shake-up for a generation as every month,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15thousands of claimants are moved from legacy benefits
0:18:15 > 0:18:19like jobseeker's allowance and onto the new Universal Credit
0:18:19 > 0:18:23system, which merges six benefits into a single monthly payment.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26With that shift will come a sharp increase in the number of claimants
0:18:26 > 0:18:29who will be exposed to the risk of being sanctioned.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32That's because Universal Credit means that people in low-paid work
0:18:32 > 0:18:35as well as those who are out of work will face the possibility
0:18:35 > 0:18:38of losing their benefits if they fail to meet obligations set
0:18:38 > 0:18:39out by the government.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42For the first time, we've got a benefits system
0:18:42 > 0:18:46which is effectively saying to people who are already working
0:18:46 > 0:18:48part-time, often in low-paid, low-status work, that you need
0:18:48 > 0:18:53to search for more work.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56By one estimate, an extra one million people who
0:18:56 > 0:18:58are receiving in-work benefits will face the possibility
0:18:58 > 0:18:59of being sanctioned once the roll-out of
0:18:59 > 0:19:00Universal Credit is complete.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03No country in the world has ever attempted such a system.
0:19:03 > 0:19:04This is a complete novelty.
0:19:04 > 0:19:11And nobody actually has any idea whether it will work.
0:19:11 > 0:19:16The Government says conditionality in the system is all part of helping
0:19:16 > 0:19:19people to get back into work or to increase their income
0:19:19 > 0:19:20once they are in work.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22They say that sanctioning is appropriate in cases
0:19:22 > 0:19:24where claimants fail to live up to their commitments.
0:19:24 > 0:19:29But how do sanctions operate in practice?
0:19:29 > 0:19:33Gareth Forrest, a former employee of the Department
0:19:33 > 0:19:35for Work and Pensions, lives in Preston with his partner.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38He now works intermittently and receives Universal Credit.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41In recent weeks, he's received heavy sanctions and may now be facing
0:19:41 > 0:19:44eviction as a result of falling behind with the rent.
0:19:44 > 0:19:52The normal allowance should be about £705.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55The most recent sanction was £503 which left £202.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58That's everything included, trying to get your rent and pay
0:19:58 > 0:20:02for your utilities and food and basic, basic needs.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05Having lost the bulk of his income due to these recent sanctions,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08he says he could be homeless in a matter of days.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11He has made use of hardship payments, but these are limited
0:20:11 > 0:20:12and have to be repaid.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14As a Universal Credit claimant, he also has experience
0:20:14 > 0:20:17of being sanctioned whilst in work as a result of not
0:20:17 > 0:20:19looking for more hours.
0:20:19 > 0:20:25I have faced sanctions whilst I have been in work.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29There have been deductions where you tell them that you work
0:20:29 > 0:20:32so many hours and they tell you to work more, find more.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34Gareth says that one of his more recent sanctions resulted
0:20:34 > 0:20:37from attending a funeral instead of going to a meeting
0:20:37 > 0:20:38at the job centre.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41Correct, I had to attend a funeral, which clashed with an appointment
0:20:41 > 0:20:42at the job centre.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45I did phone the contact centre up to say that I wouldn't be able
0:20:45 > 0:20:47to attend and why I couldn't attend.
0:20:47 > 0:20:55I even had a phone call from the job centre on the day of the funeral
0:20:57 > 0:20:59and they actually thought that I was not there.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02They were saying that, "Are you sure you are at the funeral?
0:21:02 > 0:21:03Are you not lying?"
0:21:03 > 0:21:05After providing the order of service from the funeral,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08Gareth was told that the sanction would be cancelled but soon after,
0:21:08 > 0:21:10he received another letter saying exactly the opposite.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13And I received a letter from them saying that they had
0:21:13 > 0:21:15looked at the decision, looked at the evidence,
0:21:15 > 0:21:16and there would be no sanctions.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18And then a week later, I received another letter
0:21:18 > 0:21:22from the contact centre saying that they were actually imposing
0:21:22 > 0:21:23sanctions for the same information, the same reason,
0:21:23 > 0:21:29of not attending interviews.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31On another occasion, Gareth had secured a short-term
0:21:31 > 0:21:34contract working for HMRC.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37When he went to the job centre to explain this and to say
0:21:37 > 0:21:40he would be unable to attend a future meeting, he was told
0:21:40 > 0:21:43that the contract he had brought as evidence might be fraudulent
0:21:43 > 0:21:46and that he would still need to attend his next job centre meeting.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49They are like, "Well, you need to come to this meeting.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51We don't care how you do it.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53You've just got to get there, get to this meeting".
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Which I did, at the time, I actually asked the boss,
0:21:56 > 0:21:58the manager, to get some time off, to finish early, which they
0:21:58 > 0:22:00allowed me to do that.
0:22:00 > 0:22:08Now, most places won't allow you to do that.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Gareth explained the psychological pressure of living with the threat
0:22:10 > 0:22:12of sanctions, that he says are often applied inconsistently
0:22:12 > 0:22:13and without compassion.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16You get anxious. You don't know where to turn.
0:22:16 > 0:22:22You don't know what is going to happen next day.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25You can't even think what's going to happen in the next
0:22:25 > 0:22:27hour, the next minute, because you're worried all the time.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31You're struggling to sleep at night.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36You're scared to ask for help, even from friends and family
0:22:36 > 0:22:38because you don't know if they're going to be willing
0:22:38 > 0:22:41to help or if they are just going to look and go,
0:22:41 > 0:22:42"No, sort it out yourself".
0:22:42 > 0:22:44You don't know where to turn.
0:22:44 > 0:22:49And it's...
0:22:49 > 0:22:56It is, it's distressing.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59For people like Alison Inglis Jones, a trustee of the Trussell Trust
0:22:59 > 0:23:00network of food banks, stories like Gareth's
0:23:00 > 0:23:01are all-too familiar.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04She says that sanctions are a major factor in people being forced
0:23:04 > 0:23:05to rely on food banks.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08We've just finished a four-year research with Oxford University
0:23:08 > 0:23:10into the drivers to food banks and what we see is that
0:23:10 > 0:23:15when people are sanctioned, there is an increased likelihood,
0:23:15 > 0:23:17indeed a definite association, that people will end up
0:23:17 > 0:23:20coming to our food banks.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23I'm a volunteer in a number of food banks across London and some
0:23:23 > 0:23:26of the stories I have heard and seen are absolutely tragic.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29For instance, I met a lady who had a miscarriage at the playground
0:23:29 > 0:23:33while she was dropping off her two children, taken by ambulance
0:23:33 > 0:23:36to the hospital and she missed her interview at the job centre.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39So, and she was sanctioned.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42We've had a man come in who told somebody at the job centre
0:23:42 > 0:23:45that he was going to go to his father's funeral.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48He asked if he could have the time of the interview moved.
0:23:48 > 0:23:49They said no.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51So he decided to go to his father's funeral.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55David Webster is a leading authority on the welfare system and he's
0:23:55 > 0:23:58concerned that the use of sanctions amounts to a form of what he calls
0:23:58 > 0:24:00extrajudicial punishment and a parallel legal system,
0:24:00 > 0:24:04operating without the safeguards found in the courts.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07At the moment, there are around 400,000 sanctions per year.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Some of those are repeat sanctions on the same people,
0:24:09 > 0:24:17so the number of people being sanctioned in a year
0:24:20 > 0:24:21is possibly around 300,000 or 350,000.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24What it boils down to is that it's a parallel penal system.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26It is a full-blown penal system, a system of punishment
0:24:26 > 0:24:30for supposed offences.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32Now, in the courts, in the mainstream courts,
0:24:32 > 0:24:34there's a whole battery of safeguards which have been built
0:24:34 > 0:24:37up over the centuries, basically, to ensure that citizens don't get
0:24:37 > 0:24:44wrongly convicted and punished.
0:24:44 > 0:24:50The trouble about the sanctions system is that it operates entirely
0:24:50 > 0:24:55in private and there really aren't any safeguards the people.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58The decisions are made in secret, without a hearing.
0:24:58 > 0:25:03Money is cut off before there is any opportunity for appeal.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05David explained that Universal Credit currently has
0:25:05 > 0:25:08a higher rate of sanctioning than its predecessors and that once
0:25:08 > 0:25:10it's completely rolled out, more people than ever will be
0:25:10 > 0:25:14vulnerable to being sanctioned.
0:25:14 > 0:25:20Under Universal Credit, what we are going to be seeing
0:25:20 > 0:25:22is people who never escape this system of conditionality,
0:25:22 > 0:25:25who are always under the thumb of the job centre because even
0:25:25 > 0:25:27when they are in a job, they are not earning enough
0:25:27 > 0:25:30to escape the conditionality that is now being imposed
0:25:30 > 0:25:37on people who are in work.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41So I don't think people have realised quite how drastic this
0:25:41 > 0:25:43system is and what an extraordinary extension of the control
0:25:43 > 0:25:46of the state over individuals' lives it is and what an extraordinary
0:25:46 > 0:25:54attack it is on the rights of the citizen.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56Professor Peter Dwyer at the University of York
0:25:56 > 0:25:59is conducting one of the largest studies of its kind into the effects
0:25:59 > 0:26:01of welfare conditionality.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04His team have conducted over 1,000 interviews with people in receipt
0:26:04 > 0:26:07of benefits and he has seen the effects of in work
0:26:07 > 0:26:11conditionality up close.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15You have got low-paid workers who are already working,
0:26:15 > 0:26:20subject to a sanctions regime that will penalise them if they do not
0:26:20 > 0:26:23search for more and better paid work, and that is a step change
0:26:23 > 0:26:26in the Social Security system in the UK.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29Peter's colleague Sharon Wright thinks the shift to increased
0:26:29 > 0:26:31conditionality might present a particular problem for women
0:26:31 > 0:26:35in the benefits system.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37The redesign of Universal Credit affects women particularly badly
0:26:37 > 0:26:41so women as second earners and women as lone parents.
0:26:41 > 0:26:46So women in their role as mothers are penalised in a way
0:26:46 > 0:26:49because they have an obligation to their children and that
0:26:49 > 0:26:55conflicts sometimes with their availability for work.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58So women are pressurised to look for full-time work and have less
0:26:58 > 0:27:01protection than they used to under the old system to limit the hours
0:27:01 > 0:27:05of availability and the distance they can travel to work.
0:27:05 > 0:27:10So why do policy-makers want to maintain and expand conditionality?
0:27:10 > 0:27:16Matthew Oakley led an independent review of jobseeker's allowance
0:27:16 > 0:27:17sanctions that reported to Parliament in 2014.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20He explains why, in his view, conditionality in the system,
0:27:20 > 0:27:21including the use of sanctions, is necessary.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24I think there are two clear reasons why we need
0:27:24 > 0:27:25conditionality in the system.
0:27:25 > 0:27:30First of all, that the vast majority of international evidence shows that
0:27:30 > 0:27:33benefits systems that have conditionality or requirements
0:27:33 > 0:27:36placed on job-seekers are much better at getting those people back
0:27:36 > 0:27:42into work more quickly.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44The second reason is a matter of fairness
0:27:44 > 0:27:45and what the public supports.
0:27:45 > 0:27:47You speak to the public, if you speak to benefit
0:27:47 > 0:27:49claimants themselves, overwhelmingly they support
0:27:49 > 0:27:51the idea of this, the idea of something for something,
0:27:51 > 0:27:53that in return for the benefits that people receive,
0:27:53 > 0:27:56that they should be required to do something and that is look for work.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01It is clearly just a matter of fairness.
0:28:01 > 0:28:05Where it works well, where people understand
0:28:05 > 0:28:08the requirements that are placed on them, that they understand
0:28:08 > 0:28:10the consequences of not complying with those requirements,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13people support the system.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16Speaking to people who are on benefits who have been
0:28:16 > 0:28:19sanctioned, you'll find that some of them say, "I put my hands up,
0:28:19 > 0:28:23I didn't do what I was supposed to do, I knew what the consequences
0:28:23 > 0:28:24were, and you know, I was sanctioned.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26I completely agree with that decision".
0:28:26 > 0:28:28He believes that the expansion of conditionality under
0:28:28 > 0:28:31Universal Credit is simply a matter of fairness in an evolving system.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33Ultimately, people in low-paid work who are capable,
0:28:33 > 0:28:36able to work for longer hours, you know, they are still claiming
0:28:36 > 0:28:38benefits and they could very well move off benefits
0:28:38 > 0:28:45by increasing their hours.
0:28:45 > 0:28:49So I think it is right that we require them to do so.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52The Government is currently conducting trials to determine how
0:28:52 > 0:28:56tough the regime for in-work claimants should be,
0:28:56 > 0:28:58but whatever the outcome, hundreds of thousands of working
0:28:58 > 0:29:00people on the lowest incomes will soon find themselves
0:29:00 > 0:29:02for the first time subject to the possibility
0:29:02 > 0:29:04of being sanctioned.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07The Department for Work and Pensions stressed that sanctions are only
0:29:07 > 0:29:10used in a small minority of cases, that claimants have every
0:29:10 > 0:29:12opportunity to explain why they failed to meet
0:29:12 > 0:29:16their obligations and can appeal any decision to sanction.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18But the newly-appointed Work and Pensions Secretary,
0:29:18 > 0:29:20Esther McVey, who has previously spoken in support of the sanctions
0:29:20 > 0:29:23system, will now no doubt be considering the potential political
0:29:23 > 0:29:24consequences of expanding conditionality under
0:29:24 > 0:29:32Universal Credit.
0:29:40 > 0:29:45If you want to read more about it, it is on the BBC News website.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49It is one of the most read stories on our website.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51The Department of Work and Pensions told us
0:29:51 > 0:29:53that they are "committed to helping people improve their lives
0:29:53 > 0:29:56and Universal Credit is helping people into work faster and,
0:29:56 > 0:29:58The Department of Work and Pensions told us
0:29:58 > 0:30:00for the first time, helping them earn more in work.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03They said, "It's reasonable that people have to meet certain
0:30:03 > 0:30:04requirements in return for their Universal Credit payment,
0:30:04 > 0:30:06just like under the old system.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08These are agreed with people in advance, and are
0:30:08 > 0:30:09realistic and achievable.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12Sanctions are only used when someone has failed to meet the requirements
0:30:12 > 0:30:15without good reason - this is in a small minority of cases
0:30:15 > 0:30:18and people are given every opportunity to explain why they have
0:30:18 > 0:30:25failed to do so before a decision is made."
0:30:25 > 0:30:30Thank you for your messages. You are telling me your experiences of being
0:30:30 > 0:30:34sanctioned. Holly says, "I was sanctioned for attending training to
0:30:34 > 0:30:39better myself in my career. It took them over three months to realise
0:30:39 > 0:30:44the mistake plunging me into debt." Jenny says, "I once got sanctioned
0:30:44 > 0:30:48for leaving a job that hadn't paid me for nearly three months. I was
0:30:48 > 0:30:52facing eviction because I couldn't pay my rent I had bailiffs at the
0:30:52 > 0:30:55door for nonpayment of council tax and had been unable to pay my
0:30:55 > 0:31:00childcare fees. Still, I was sanctioned as the Jobcentre deemed I
0:31:00 > 0:31:04had made myself willingly unemployed. It would appear we are
0:31:04 > 0:31:12now required to work for free yet somehow still pay the bills."
0:31:16 > 0:31:21And Fay says, I am petrified of Universal Credit coming to my area.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24How am I supposed to know what I will receive from one month to the
0:31:24 > 0:31:31next? If you are getting in touch, you're very welcome.
0:31:31 > 0:31:32Still to come:
0:31:32 > 0:31:40The BBC is proposing to cap news presenters pay at £320,000 a year.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50The jaw of some of you is hitting the floor at that cap. If you want
0:31:50 > 0:31:55to give your reaction, get in touch.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57We'll be discussing it shortly.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00And the highly-professional armed robber that police say probably has
0:32:00 > 0:32:04a military background.
0:32:04 > 0:32:10Time for the latest news, here's Ben.
0:32:10 > 0:32:14The impact of Brexit could leave Britain substantially worse off
0:32:14 > 0:32:16over the next 15 years, according to a leaked
0:32:16 > 0:32:20government document.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22The analysis of three different scenarios has been
0:32:22 > 0:32:24carried out by the office of the Brexit Secretary,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27David Davis, and has been seen by the online news service Buzzfeed,
0:32:27 > 0:32:31but government sources point out that the document hasn't looked
0:32:31 > 0:32:33at the impact of Number Ten's preferred option -
0:32:33 > 0:32:39a bespoke trade deal with the EU.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43Women at the BBC have told MPs they faced a veiled threats when they
0:32:43 > 0:32:48raised the subject of equal pay. The claims, which were made to the
0:32:48 > 0:32:51digital, culture, media and sports select committee, come as the BBC
0:32:51 > 0:32:55announces plans for a pay cap on its news presenters. The proposed
0:32:55 > 0:32:59maximum salary of £320,000 will affect only a handful of people and
0:32:59 > 0:33:06forms part of a wider restructuring of pay. Police say a highly
0:33:06 > 0:33:10professional former soldier is believed to have carried out seven
0:33:10 > 0:33:13violent raids with military style planning. Surrey Police have
0:33:13 > 0:33:17released CCTV footage of a suspect who is accused of staking out
0:33:17 > 0:33:22expensive properties in the Home Counties so that he knew their exact
0:33:22 > 0:33:25layout and the location of safes. The owners were robbed of jewellery
0:33:25 > 0:33:30and watches while being threatened with a sawn off shotgun.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33A significant number of people who receive personal independence
0:33:33 > 0:33:36payments from the government are expected to receive more money once
0:33:36 > 0:33:40their claims are reviewed. All 1.6 million recipients are having their
0:33:40 > 0:33:44cases looked at again after the government decided not to challenge
0:33:44 > 0:33:48a court ruling that said changes to so-called Debt payments were unfair
0:33:48 > 0:33:54to people with mental health conditions.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57Ryanair has formally recognised a pile of that first time. The British
0:33:57 > 0:34:05Airline Pilots Association said it was a historic agreement.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07was a historic agreement. Last month, a shortage of pilots caused
0:34:07 > 0:34:08thousands of flight cancellations.
0:34:08 > 0:34:13That's a summary of the latest BBC News.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16Listen to these messages. On Facebook, Dave says, I enjoy your
0:34:16 > 0:34:21show and I have to comment on the salary cap the BBC News presenters.
0:34:21 > 0:34:25Obviously, bringing male and female salaries in line is to be applauded,
0:34:25 > 0:34:29but I am gobsmacked at the amount they can earn. I never imagined we
0:34:29 > 0:34:32are paying such salaries. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. As always,
0:34:32 > 0:34:36when it comes to spending public money, it's way over the top. Sandra
0:34:36 > 0:34:41says, do the people at the BBC not think people are sick of hearing
0:34:41 > 0:34:46about your pay gap? The people paying your wages are working hard
0:34:46 > 0:34:50and getting around £15,000 per year. We will talk more about this in a
0:34:50 > 0:34:53moment. Do feed in your messages and I will bring them into the
0:34:53 > 0:34:54conversation.
0:34:54 > 0:34:58Here's some sport now with Olly.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02David Beckham has been given the go ahead for entering a Miami franchise
0:35:02 > 0:35:06in the Major league soccer. They have found a site for a new stadium.
0:35:06 > 0:35:10He says he hopes to recruit some of the world's top players. The new
0:35:10 > 0:35:13women's head coach Phil Neville says he will encourage his old club
0:35:13 > 0:35:17Manchester United to start a women's team. He says they should be the
0:35:17 > 0:35:23leaders and pioneers in the game. It is transfer deadline day tomorrow.
0:35:23 > 0:35:27Aubameyang is close to joining Arsenal, but his move may rely on a
0:35:27 > 0:35:32player going the other way. The funeral of the former West Bromwich
0:35:32 > 0:35:35Albion and England striker Cyrille Regis is taking us today. The
0:35:35 > 0:35:38cortege stopped outside the Hawthorns, his old club, where fans
0:35:38 > 0:35:44had gathered. He died earlier this month at the age of 59. We will
0:35:44 > 0:35:48hopefully be going live to West Brom in the next hour after ten.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51Next, we're going to talk about BBC pay and for the sake of transparency
0:35:51 > 0:35:54I am a member of the BBC women's group which has been calling
0:35:54 > 0:35:57for equal pay for equal work at the corporation.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00The BBC has announced today it is proposing a pay cap
0:36:00 > 0:36:04for its news presenters of £320,000.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07It follows mounting criticism of how much it rewards some high profile
0:36:07 > 0:36:09figures and of the discrepancy between what male and female
0:36:09 > 0:36:12employees earn for similar jobs.
0:36:12 > 0:36:19Let's talk now to the chair of the Digital, Culture, Media
0:36:21 > 0:36:24and Sport Committee, Conservative MP Damian Collins.
0:36:24 > 0:36:28He'll be questioning BBC execs tomorrow.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32And Carrie Gracie,
0:36:32 > 0:36:37who quit her role as China editor in protest over BBC pay.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39And Stewart Purvis, the former Chief Executive Officer of ITN
0:36:39 > 0:36:45and now sits on the board at Channel 4.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49Tell us about discovering that you were being paid less than men doing
0:36:49 > 0:36:54similar jobs?I was health correspondent for BBC Scotland for a
0:36:54 > 0:36:58long period, 15 years. And it was about halfway through my 10-year
0:36:58 > 0:37:02when I realised I was paid significantly less than men doing
0:37:02 > 0:37:07the same job. Many of the men I was working with were extremely helpful
0:37:07 > 0:37:14and told me what that salary was. So I went and asked for pay rises, but
0:37:14 > 0:37:17I was repeatedly told it wasn't the right time or this wasn't the right
0:37:17 > 0:37:24forum. When I asked after a particularly good appraisal, it was
0:37:24 > 0:37:31only when I used equal pay legislation or cited it that I was
0:37:31 > 0:37:35given an immediate pay increase of £5,000. But that still doesn't put
0:37:35 > 0:37:39me up to the level of some of my peers who I felt were doing a
0:37:39 > 0:37:46similar role.And were there any other explanations, i:e., could one
0:37:46 > 0:37:49of your colleagues have had more experience than you? Had they taken
0:37:49 > 0:37:55up that job having come from a higher paid job, so they were on
0:37:55 > 0:37:59their old salary?Well, one of my peers who was earning more had been
0:37:59 > 0:38:03with the BBC for much longer than I had. In the earlier days of the BBC,
0:38:03 > 0:38:14that counted towards your salary as long Lex Service.Is that fair,
0:38:14 > 0:38:19then, and pretty? If someone had more experience and worked at the
0:38:19 > 0:38:23BBC for longer?Well, another may appear had been appointed at the BBC
0:38:23 > 0:38:27after me to an immediately higher salary. And yet we were doing the
0:38:27 > 0:38:34same job.Let me bring in Damian Collins, chair of the media
0:38:34 > 0:38:38committee, the media select committee which is looking at this.
0:38:38 > 0:38:45Reaction firstly to this cap of a salary of £320,000 a year for news
0:38:45 > 0:38:50presenters at the BBC?As you said yourself in your introduction, I
0:38:50 > 0:38:53think this affects a relatively small number of people. If you look
0:38:53 > 0:38:57at the core grievance that Carrie Gracie brought forward that as the
0:38:57 > 0:38:59BBC's China editor, she was paid less than other international
0:38:59 > 0:39:03editors for doing work of equal value, this wouldn't have had any
0:39:03 > 0:39:10impact on that. There are many people at the BBC who work at all
0:39:10 > 0:39:13levels and certainly below the £150,000 pay level would require
0:39:13 > 0:39:18public disclosure of their salaries, who feel that they have not been
0:39:18 > 0:39:22getting equal pay for doing work of equal value. The BBC has to address
0:39:22 > 0:39:25this much bigger issue that runs through the whole organisation. It's
0:39:25 > 0:39:29easy to pick on a small number of very highly paid people and ask them
0:39:29 > 0:39:33to take a pay cut, but that doesn't address the fundamental issue.Do
0:39:33 > 0:39:38you think they have to address other areas of the BBC like sport,
0:39:38 > 0:39:43entertainment and people who work for?Yes. People will question why
0:39:43 > 0:39:47this pay cap has been restricted to news only. There could be pay
0:39:47 > 0:39:53disparities elsewhere in the BBC. There are BBC women who have brought
0:39:53 > 0:40:00their grievances thawed and they don't all work in news.Stewart
0:40:00 > 0:40:08Purvis, the former head of ITN and now on the board at Channel 4... A
0:40:08 > 0:40:11lot of licence fee payers are balking at this cap. They can't
0:40:11 > 0:40:16believe how high it is, 11 and a half times the average salary.I
0:40:16 > 0:40:19agree that it is not the heart of the issue, but I totally understand
0:40:19 > 0:40:24that your viewers are wound up about it. This will not come as much
0:40:24 > 0:40:28consolation, but I can only say that that is the market rate. There are
0:40:28 > 0:40:33people I know who earn more than that outside the BBC. It goes back
0:40:33 > 0:40:37to the age-old argument that you have a publicly funded body
0:40:37 > 0:40:41competing with commercially funded bodies. What is the appropriately
0:40:41 > 0:40:44level of pay?Hasn't that market rate argument been blown out of the
0:40:44 > 0:40:47water, though? Since the list of salaries was published at the BBC of
0:40:47 > 0:40:54the most highly paid people, no one has been poached. No one has left.
0:40:54 > 0:41:00No. I come from having worked mostly outside of the BBC. But to go to the
0:41:00 > 0:41:06heart of the issue, how is the BBC now going to take this forward? From
0:41:06 > 0:41:14my experience at ITN and Channel 4, at ITN I was paying people at a rate
0:41:14 > 0:41:19for the job. But I was also paying people more if they had more
0:41:19 > 0:41:24experience. That is something you referred to just now. And I stand by
0:41:24 > 0:41:28that is a policy. The problem is that so often, men were doing those
0:41:28 > 0:41:33jobs. So they are the people with the experience because in a sense,
0:41:33 > 0:41:37mostly men were doing it. So the problem is that if you pay people
0:41:37 > 0:41:40for experience, you are almost enshrining some of the unfairness of
0:41:40 > 0:41:44the past. That is a dilemma I am keen to see how the BBC can find
0:41:44 > 0:41:49their way through that.After ten o'clock, the director-general will
0:41:49 > 0:41:53address staff at the BBC. Damian Collins, do you have sympathy with
0:41:53 > 0:42:00the BBC in terms of the experience argument?Is not entirely, but
0:42:00 > 0:42:03because when you look at some of the concerns that have been raised, they
0:42:03 > 0:42:07have been brought forward by people like Carrie Gracie, senior
0:42:07 > 0:42:11journalists at the BBC, looking at people she would regard as
0:42:11 > 0:42:13contemporaries and being paid a lot more. So it is not as simple as
0:42:13 > 0:42:18saying someone who is young should not be paid as someone who is senior
0:42:18 > 0:42:22and has been there a long time. This is about people with similar
0:42:22 > 0:42:25experience doing work of equal value who are not being paid the same
0:42:25 > 0:42:29amount. And when you look at the disclosures so far, it is hard to
0:42:29 > 0:42:35discern what the BBC policy is on equal pay. They have to be able to
0:42:35 > 0:42:37demonstrate from today how they are going to deliver equal pay across
0:42:37 > 0:42:42the corporation.I certainly agree that the BBC now has to set out a
0:42:42 > 0:42:47policy which they can explain to people. They have two set out a
0:42:47 > 0:42:50policy in which people can understand, if you are in a pay
0:42:50 > 0:42:56band, why am I in that slot in the paid and? Nor does the BBC, but lots
0:42:56 > 0:43:00of employers around the country are watching this as a test case. It has
0:43:00 > 0:43:03wider significance than just the media. I don't dispute that if
0:43:03 > 0:43:06someone has equal experience, they should be paid the same. But I do
0:43:06 > 0:43:10find it difficult to say to somebody who has been winning awards for 20
0:43:10 > 0:43:14years, who has been through war zones for ten years, that there is
0:43:14 > 0:43:19nothing in your salary to reflect that. The question is, is that
0:43:19 > 0:43:27inherently favouring men over women? Eleanor, what are you hoping for?
0:43:27 > 0:43:31Firstly, I would like to point out that I am not on the salaries that
0:43:31 > 0:43:39are quoted, nowhere near that. But also, one of the reasons I decided
0:43:39 > 0:43:42to speak out is that when I was vocal about this at the BBC, I felt
0:43:42 > 0:43:48that they there were straightforward things that could be lamented
0:43:48 > 0:43:52immediately. For example, better advance for people when they went on
0:43:52 > 0:43:56maternity leave about their rights, for example, the right to know when
0:43:56 > 0:44:00there is a job that you are eligible to apply for. That guidance was
0:44:00 > 0:44:06never produced.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10never produced. So there are first steps that the BBC can take. But I
0:44:10 > 0:44:13also recognise that this is a huge problem and there is no magic
0:44:13 > 0:44:19bullet. But if anyone should be tackling it, it should be the BBC.
0:44:19 > 0:44:24Sean on Facebook says, I would like to ask why it is necessary to pay
0:44:24 > 0:44:29even £320,000 when such large private earnings can be had from the
0:44:29 > 0:44:32profile working for the BBC gives you? Why do you need to pay TV cooks
0:44:32 > 0:44:37when you are helping to build their restaurant and book businesses etc?
0:44:37 > 0:44:41Allen says, that cap is way too high. News presenters paid more by
0:44:41 > 0:44:46the Prime Minister? It's a disgrace. The cap should be 120,000, Max.
0:44:46 > 0:44:51Judith says the 320 pay cap is more than is earned by the majority of
0:44:51 > 0:44:55university vice chancellors, and the media has called them parasites
0:44:55 > 0:45:01because they earn more than the PM. This is strange. Thank you all for
0:45:01 > 0:45:07coming on the programme. The BBC will make its announcement at ten
0:45:07 > 0:45:11o'clock with more details of how it is going to address pay.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14We have, of course, asked the BBC if we could interview anyone
0:45:14 > 0:45:15from the BBC including the Director-General
0:45:15 > 0:45:21and Head of News and, as yet, no one is available.
0:45:21 > 0:45:27Actually, that announcement is 10.15.
0:45:27 > 0:45:32We will talk to a Conservative backbencher who is cited as a tu
0:45:32 > 0:45:36fewer Tory leader and asking him why telling Theresa May to sort out her
0:45:36 > 0:45:42leadership of the Government.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45A gay clergyman who was stopped from taking up a job
0:45:45 > 0:45:52as a hospital chaplain after he married his same-sex
0:45:52 > 0:45:54partner is taking his fight to the Court of Appeal.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57Canon Jeremy Pemberton was barred by his bishop from taking up
0:45:57 > 0:45:59the job back in 2014, just weeks after he'd got married.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02But an employment tribunal found that the Church of England had not
0:46:02 > 0:46:04broken equality laws with its stance on same-sex marriage.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08He's appealing that ruling - it starts tomorrow.
0:46:08 > 0:46:13And Canon Jeremy Pemberton is with us now.
0:46:13 > 0:46:18Good morning to you.Good morning, Victoria.When we spoke to you last
0:46:18 > 0:46:23you had lost your initial tribunal. You haven't been able to work as a
0:46:23 > 0:46:27priest since then. What's that been like?It is difficult. I am a
0:46:27 > 0:46:31priest, but I have no way of operating as a priest at the moment
0:46:31 > 0:46:37and that's fairly painful. The employment tribunal judge said the
0:46:37 > 0:46:40State could not impose same-sex marriage on the church. That's why
0:46:40 > 0:46:44you lost effectively and that's right, isn't it? It is a decision
0:46:44 > 0:46:48for Parliament? No, one is trying to impose same-sex marriage on the
0:46:48 > 0:46:54church. I had a civil marriage which is my right to have so no one is
0:46:54 > 0:46:59imposing it on the church. Why the church has to punish me for doing a
0:46:59 > 0:47:04good thing which is getting married, I don't understand.Taking this to
0:47:04 > 0:47:08the Court of Appeal is to test what? There are still questions as to
0:47:08 > 0:47:12whether the church of England's exceptions on under equality law
0:47:12 > 0:47:15stretch as far as the Church of England likes to think they would.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18Nobody goes to the Court of Appeal because they want to, they go
0:47:18 > 0:47:22because there is a legal question that needs to be tested and that's
0:47:22 > 0:47:26what we're going to test starting tomorrow in the Court of Appeal.And
0:47:26 > 0:47:29you must have thought long and hard about whether to enter this process
0:47:29 > 0:47:38again?I have the most amazing legal team, Sean Jones QC and Helen
0:47:38 > 0:47:43Trotter and Justin Gowe and they work for me because they believe in
0:47:43 > 0:47:46this case and believe there is a point of law that needs to be
0:47:46 > 0:47:51examined thoroughly until it is finally settled and without them,
0:47:51 > 0:47:57and without my solicitor, I couldn't do this. So, I am amazingly well
0:47:57 > 0:48:01supported bill people who are generously giving their time and
0:48:01 > 0:48:04expertise to test this point.The Church of England says in a
0:48:04 > 0:48:07statement, "Churches across the country continue to offer a generous
0:48:07 > 0:48:13welcome to people from all backgrounds and we remain fully
0:48:13 > 0:48:16engaged in the church's exploration of questions relating to human
0:48:16 > 0:48:20sexuality. The Church of England supports gay men and women who serve
0:48:20 > 0:48:25as clergy in its parishes, and institutions, it has no truck with
0:48:25 > 0:48:29homophobia and supports clergy who are in civil partnerships as set out
0:48:29 > 0:48:36in the House of Bishops guidelines in 2006."Yes, well they would say
0:48:36 > 0:48:40that, wouldn't they? The fact is the institution is a homophobic
0:48:40 > 0:48:45institution. Lots of people within it ant homophobic. Certainly not at
0:48:45 > 0:48:51parish level and at the level of ordinary people in churches, but if
0:48:51 > 0:48:55you're a clergy person, heaven help you if you get married.Why do you
0:48:55 > 0:49:00want to continue working as a priest then for what you have just
0:49:00 > 0:49:03described as a homophobic institution?Because that's my
0:49:03 > 0:49:07calling. I believe God's called me to be a priest and that calling
0:49:07 > 0:49:12doesn't end just because I run into some difficulty in the institution.
0:49:12 > 0:49:17The Church of England can change. The Church of England will change.
0:49:17 > 0:49:23But it's slow at doing it. It's a massive tanker and it's very hard to
0:49:23 > 0:49:27turn tankers round, but somebody has to stay on the bus and say, "I'm not
0:49:27 > 0:49:31getting off."And do you think God accepts you as you are and your
0:49:31 > 0:49:36husband and your civil marriage? Yes, absolutely. Without question.
0:49:36 > 0:49:42I'm well supported. My husband is fantastic and I couldn't do it
0:49:42 > 0:49:46without him and I just keep going because I think there is an
0:49:46 > 0:49:50injustice here that needs to be pushed.Thank you for talking to us.
0:49:50 > 0:50:00Thank you. We will follow your appeal, of course.
0:50:00 > 0:50:05A highly-professional soldier is believed to have carried out
0:50:05 > 0:50:07A highly-professional ex-soldier is believed to have carried out
0:50:07 > 0:50:09seven violent raids on expensive properties across the Home Counties
0:50:09 > 0:50:10with military-style planning.
0:50:10 > 0:50:18The man stakes the homes out, knowing their exact layout
0:50:19 > 0:50:21by the time he raids them, wielding a sawn-off shotgun.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23He has taken jewellery, watches and "irreplaceable
0:50:23 > 0:50:25heirlooms" worth a total of around £1 million.
0:50:25 > 0:50:26Susan Morris was one of his victims.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29Some of her account of what happened is distressing.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34I was alone and I heard a very loud voice behind me.
0:50:34 > 0:50:43I was at my computer and I was quite taken aback and I turned
0:50:43 > 0:50:46around and saw a very, very large man dressed
0:50:46 > 0:50:49all in black with a balaclava on and he shouted very cloudily,
0:50:49 > 0:50:57"I want the jewellery, take me to the safe."
0:50:57 > 0:51:00It all happened incredibly quickly. It is still very vivid
0:51:00 > 0:51:03though in my mind. He came towards me and I then
0:51:03 > 0:51:08realised he a sawn-off shotgun and he grabbed hold of me.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11He was holding me the whole time of the burglary,
0:51:11 > 0:51:14he never let go of me. I've actually got bruises
0:51:14 > 0:51:17all over my body where he was gripping on to me.
0:51:17 > 0:51:22He was in gloves. So, all I want to do is get him out
0:51:22 > 0:51:25of the house as quickly as possible, give him whatever he wants
0:51:25 > 0:51:29and get him out because I knew that Stephen was on his way home.
0:51:29 > 0:51:38I took him to the jewellery. I gave him the jewellery,
0:51:38 > 0:51:48it was already frightening, but he actually said to me, "Get
0:51:48 > 0:51:50on the floor." I actually thought he
0:51:50 > 0:51:52was going to rape me. I was very, very frightened.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55I gave him a lot of jewellery from the safe.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57And I said to him, "You've got some valuable things there.
0:51:57 > 0:52:02Now get out".
0:52:02 > 0:52:10But he wasn't happy with that. He asked for more jewellery. I gave him
0:52:10 > 0:52:14some more jewellery and he then wanted more jewellery. This is when
0:52:14 > 0:52:20he really got angry and started to hit me. He hit me very, very hard on
0:52:20 > 0:52:25my face. Not enough to knock me out, I think he knew exactly how hard to
0:52:25 > 0:52:31hit me, but he hit me three times on my face. It was very, very painful
0:52:31 > 0:52:39and I couldn't believe the blows kept coming.He then started beating
0:52:39 > 0:52:45Susan's head against the wooden floor in his anger.I had terrible
0:52:45 > 0:52:50bruising on the back of my head. That's partly from when he was
0:52:50 > 0:52:53hitting me against the wall in the dressing room, but yes, he's banging
0:52:53 > 0:52:58my head on the floor. He actually drags me by my hair across the
0:52:58 > 0:53:05floor. It really hurts when someone drags your whole body by your hair
0:53:05 > 0:53:09across the floor. It was very, very frightening. I think he has been
0:53:09 > 0:53:15trained to know how hard to hit, to not knock someone unconscious, but
0:53:15 > 0:53:19enough to frighten them. The use of the gun.I think the sexual assault
0:53:19 > 0:53:25as well just to intimidate and to put even more fear...He held on to
0:53:25 > 0:53:29me the whole time. Someone said, "Why didn't you set the panic alarm
0:53:29 > 0:53:32off?" There wasn't a chance because he was holding on to me and
0:53:32 > 0:53:35secondly, he had a gun. I wasn't going to do anything that he didn't
0:53:35 > 0:53:40want me to do. So he was holding on to my arm. There was massive
0:53:40 > 0:53:44bruising there and he grabbed my breasts. There are photographs of
0:53:44 > 0:53:52the bruises so it was sexual in order to frighten me.It was sexual
0:53:52 > 0:53:57intimidation, wasn't it?Sexual and at one point when he was hitting me
0:53:57 > 0:54:01with the gun, sorry, the gun was pointing at me and he was hitting
0:54:01 > 0:54:06me, it was that moment I did actually think this is it. It's all
0:54:06 > 0:54:16over. Stephen and Susan Morris.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19Police say they are looking for someone who may seem to have
0:54:19 > 0:54:22money disproportionate to their job, and might be travelling or away
0:54:22 > 0:54:23for long periods of time.
0:54:23 > 0:54:25They need your help.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27If you've got any information, you can call
0:54:27 > 0:54:32Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.
0:54:32 > 0:54:36Thank you for your messages today. Jacqueline e-mailed, "The BBC should
0:54:36 > 0:54:41be paid for by subscription so these huge salaries are not forcibly paid
0:54:41 > 0:54:45through a tax on everyone including poor people and those on benefits.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48If people could have the choice of subscribing to the BBC, it would be
0:54:48 > 0:54:54fairer." And Christine says, "As a member of the woman's group asking
0:54:54 > 0:54:57for equal pay, does that mean you should get paid as much as the men
0:54:57 > 0:55:01or the men should get paid as much as the women? Will you playing soft
0:55:01 > 0:55:06music during your items so we feel sorry for the poorly paid BBC News
0:55:06 > 0:55:11reporters?" Thank you for those. The e-mail address is:
0:55:11 > 0:55:18You can send us a message on Twitter and you can message us on Facebook
0:55:18 > 0:55:25or whatsapp. Here is Carol with the weather. It seems to be very, very
0:55:25 > 0:55:25cold again.
0:55:25 > 0:55:30weather. It seems to be very, very cold again. The temperature in
0:55:30 > 0:55:33Benson in Oxfordshire was six degrees lower than it was this time
0:55:33 > 0:55:36yesterday morning. There is frost around this morning. Now, we have
0:55:36 > 0:55:41got lovely Weather Watchers pictures to show you. We've got some sent in
0:55:41 > 0:55:50earlier by our viewers. This one of Great Chesterford in Essex and frost
0:55:50 > 0:55:54on the ground in Staffordshire. A beautiful sunrise. For many of us,
0:55:54 > 0:56:01it is going to be a lovely day. Across the north-west, this is where
0:56:01 > 0:56:04we have showers courtesy of this array of weather fronts coming in
0:56:04 > 0:56:07from the Atlantic. Later on we've got more weather fronts coming in
0:56:07 > 0:56:10across the south-west. They're bringing cloud and we will see
0:56:10 > 0:56:14drizzle coming out of that increasingly across the Isles of
0:56:14 > 0:56:18Scilly and through Cornwall and Devon. We've got high cloud around
0:56:18 > 0:56:21across parts of Wales, northern England and that's producing the odd
0:56:21 > 0:56:25spot of drizzle, largely on the hills, but the main wet weather is
0:56:25 > 0:56:28across the north and north-west of Scotland. That's where we've got
0:56:28 > 0:56:31showers falling as snow on the hills. So through the afternoon, you
0:56:31 > 0:56:35can see the progress that the cloud and the drizzle is making across the
0:56:35 > 0:56:40south-west. Drift east of it and we are looking at sunny skies.
0:56:40 > 0:56:43Temperature wise, six, seven or eight and it is the same too across
0:56:43 > 0:56:47East Anglia and the Midlands, but in the Wales, the West Midlands, we
0:56:47 > 0:56:51will see the cloud build. Here and there, you could see a shower from
0:56:51 > 0:56:56it. Across Northern Ireland, it is a similar scenario, a plethora of
0:56:56 > 0:56:59showers coming in across the north and north-west of Scotland again
0:56:59 > 0:57:03falling as snow on the mountains. The wind here will strengthen as we
0:57:03 > 0:57:08go through the evening. The rain will turn heavier as it cascades
0:57:08 > 0:57:12south-east wards. We've got the patchy rain coming in from the
0:57:12 > 0:57:18south-west. The two will meet in this band of cloud. Underneath this
0:57:18 > 0:57:22band of cloud and showers, it won't be as cold as the night just gone,
0:57:22 > 0:57:25further north it is and the snow level will increasingly be coming
0:57:25 > 0:57:29down. So this is courtesy of these two weather fronts which through the
0:57:29 > 0:57:32course of tomorrow will continue to move away from the South East,
0:57:32 > 0:57:36taking the rain with them. Behind it, brighter skies and sunshine and
0:57:36 > 0:57:39showers and north-westerly wind which is a cold direction and that
0:57:39 > 0:57:48will push right the way down the country.
0:57:48 > 0:57:53country. Tomorrow it will feel cold. It will be noticeably windy as well.
0:57:53 > 0:57:59Perhaps an icy start on untreated surfaces, but as the rain clears and
0:57:59 > 0:58:04the sun comes out, we have a lot of showers. In Scotland, northern
0:58:04 > 0:58:07England and Northern Ireland, we will see snow down to 200 meters
0:58:07 > 0:58:12which is modest, but we don't expect it to be as disruptive as it was in
0:58:12 > 0:58:13recent weeks.
0:58:14 > 0:58:20Thank you very much. It is Tuesday. It's 10am. I'm Victoria Derbyshire.
0:58:20 > 0:58:23A leaked government document suggests the economy will grow at a
0:58:23 > 0:58:26slower rate outside the European Union. But not everyone believes
0:58:26 > 0:58:31that.
0:58:34 > 0:58:36that.Every forecast from the government to do with Brexit or the
0:58:36 > 0:58:37economy has been wrong.
0:58:37 > 0:58:39We'll get reacton in the next few minutes.
0:58:39 > 0:58:43Also today - this programme has been told that up to 1 million people
0:58:43 > 0:58:47in work could face benefits sanctions once the universal credit
0:58:47 > 0:58:52system has been fully rolled out.
0:58:52 > 0:58:56We have got low paid workers who are already working, subject to a
0:58:56 > 0:59:01sanction regime that will penalise them if they do not search for more
0:59:01 > 0:59:05and better paid work. That is a step change in the social security system
0:59:05 > 0:59:06in the UK.
0:59:06 > 0:59:07Tell us what you think -
0:59:07 > 0:59:11have you received sanctions whilst being in work?
0:59:11 > 0:59:17And the BBC is proposing to cap the pay of its news presenters
0:59:17 > 0:59:19at £320,000 after mounting criticism of how much
0:59:19 > 0:59:22it rewards some high-profile figures and of a gender pay gap.
0:59:22 > 0:59:30Do tell us what you think of that pay cap.
0:59:31 > 0:59:34Ben Brown is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary
0:59:34 > 0:59:37of the rest of the day's news.
0:59:37 > 0:59:39The impact of Brexit could leave Britain substantially worse off
0:59:39 > 0:59:41over the next 15 years, according to a leaked
0:59:41 > 0:59:44government document.
0:59:44 > 0:59:48The analysis of three different scenarios has been
0:59:48 > 0:59:50carried out by the office of the Brexit Secretary,
0:59:50 > 0:59:53David Davis, and has been seen by the Buzzfeed News website.
0:59:53 > 0:59:56But Government sources say the document hasn't looked
0:59:56 > 0:59:58at the impact of Number 10's preferred option -
0:59:58 > 1:00:03a bespoke trade deal with the EU.
1:00:03 > 1:00:06A report into what the BBC pays its on-air talent
1:00:06 > 1:00:08will be published shortly.
1:00:08 > 1:00:11The review - by the auditors PWC - follows mounting criticism
1:00:11 > 1:00:17of the discrepancy between what men and women are paid.
1:00:17 > 1:00:19Women at the BBC have told MPs they faced "veiled threats"
1:00:19 > 1:00:21when they raised the subject of equal pay.
1:00:21 > 1:00:27Our Media Correspondent, David Sillito reports.
1:00:27 > 1:00:30Some of the BBC's top news presenters have already agreed
1:00:30 > 1:00:33to have their pay cut, but this goes a step further -
1:00:33 > 1:00:34a ceiling of £320,000.
1:00:34 > 1:00:36It is still more than twice what the Prime Minister makes,
1:00:36 > 1:00:41and will only affect a handful of people.
1:00:41 > 1:00:45But it is part of a wider audit and report into star salaries.
1:00:45 > 1:00:47One key issue was highlighted by the recent resignation
1:00:47 > 1:00:50of Carrie Gracie as the BBC's China editor.
1:00:50 > 1:00:53She says a comparable male colleague was making more
1:00:53 > 1:00:56than 50% more than her.
1:00:56 > 1:01:03This and other pay issues are now being investigated by MPs.
1:01:03 > 1:01:07What we want from the BBC is, you know, a clear explanation
1:01:07 > 1:01:10of the steps they will take to bring about an open and transparent
1:01:10 > 1:01:13policy on equal pay, and how they account for some
1:01:13 > 1:01:15of the pay decisions that were made in the past,
1:01:15 > 1:01:18that saw some people being paid many times more than their
1:01:18 > 1:01:20colleagues for doing what was essentially the same job.
1:01:20 > 1:01:23All of this follows the publication last summer of the pay deals
1:01:23 > 1:01:24of the BBC's top stars.
1:01:24 > 1:01:27The women campaigning for equal pay say they have not been consulted,
1:01:27 > 1:01:29and so have no confidence in today's report.
1:01:29 > 1:01:32But the BBC says it is committed to equal pay, and says today's
1:01:32 > 1:01:34proposals will make significant changes to the way it
1:01:34 > 1:01:35pays its on-air stars.
1:01:35 > 1:01:43David Sillito, BBC News.
1:01:49 > 1:01:55Police say a former soldier is believed to have carried out seven
1:01:55 > 1:01:57burglaries with military planning. They have released CCTV footage of a
1:01:57 > 1:02:02suspect who is accused of carrying out robberies in the Home Counties
1:02:02 > 1:02:06where he knew the exact location of saves. The owners were robbed while
1:02:06 > 1:02:11being threatened with a sawn off shotgun.
1:02:11 > 1:02:14The Irish government has agreed to hold a referendum on liberalising
1:02:14 > 1:02:18abortion laws at the end of May. The Prime Minister Leo Varadkar said
1:02:18 > 1:02:23there must be an end to women having to go abroad for terminations. The
1:02:23 > 1:02:26Republic of Ireland currently has a near total ban on abortion.
1:02:26 > 1:02:28MPs are investigating how the construction giant
1:02:28 > 1:02:30Carillion collapsed today.
1:02:30 > 1:02:33A joint inquiry by MPs on the Work and Pensions committee
1:02:33 > 1:02:35and the Business committee is trying to establish how the company's
1:02:35 > 1:02:37long-standing financial problems weren't spotted before its collapse
1:02:37 > 1:02:41two weeks ago.
1:02:41 > 1:02:45The chief executive of the financial reporting Council has been speaking
1:02:45 > 1:02:50before the committee.We have announced the investigation into the
1:02:50 > 1:02:56audit. We started our inquiries into the quality of the audit immediately
1:02:56 > 1:03:00after the profit warning. We have now completed those and we are doing
1:03:00 > 1:03:06a formal investigation. In relation to the financial statements and the
1:03:06 > 1:03:11conduct of the directors in that regard, the FCA has been conducting
1:03:11 > 1:03:15its own inquiries. We have got their information and we will be reaching
1:03:15 > 1:03:17a view as soon as possible on whether to extend that an
1:03:17 > 1:03:28investigation into the directors.
1:03:31 > 1:03:36Dave says to me, Victoria, you are nothing special and I see people in
1:03:36 > 1:03:40the NHS grafting like there is no tomorrow. People are paying their TV
1:03:40 > 1:03:44licence to pay for your lavish lifestyle. Another says, the pay cap
1:03:44 > 1:03:51is excessive but does not address the issue of gender inequality. It
1:03:51 > 1:03:53appears to be a defect in strategy which would imply that BBC
1:03:53 > 1:03:56management are still failing to understand the basic equality issue
1:03:56 > 1:04:00- equal pay for women at all grades should be implemented without this
1:04:00 > 1:04:06prevarication. And another says, I struggle to pay my licence fee. BBC
1:04:06 > 1:04:10executives are completely out of touch with ordinary people. Selected
1:04:10 > 1:04:14stars are paid grossly inflated salaries which are out of kilter
1:04:14 > 1:04:17with every other walk of life, earning more than some FTSE 100
1:04:17 > 1:04:23chief executives. Get real, BBC.
1:04:28 > 1:04:31Time for the sport now.
1:04:31 > 1:04:34The funeral takes place today of the former West Bromwich Albion
1:04:34 > 1:04:36and England footballer Cyrille Regis, widely regarded
1:04:36 > 1:04:38as a pioneer for black players.
1:04:38 > 1:04:40He died earlier this month, aged 59.
1:04:40 > 1:04:43It will be a private funeral but there will be a celebration
1:04:43 > 1:04:45of his life at West Brom's ground The Hawthorns.
1:04:45 > 1:04:53Our sports reporter Ade Adedoyin's there for us now.
1:04:54 > 1:04:58I know the cortege passed by early. There will be a fantastic turnout
1:04:58 > 1:05:04for this.Yes, that cortege arrived here at the Hawthorns to warm
1:05:04 > 1:05:07applause from the few hundred people who had gathered here as well as
1:05:07 > 1:05:10members of the current West Brom squad and manager Alan Pardew. It
1:05:10 > 1:05:13was a chance for them to pay their respects to Cyrille Regis before a
1:05:13 > 1:05:17private funeral service for family and friends. We are told around 300
1:05:17 > 1:05:22people will be there. In about half an hour, there will be a public
1:05:22 > 1:05:25ceremony here to celebrate his life and achievements. It will happen on
1:05:25 > 1:05:30the stage behind me. Beverley Knight, the pop star, will perform.
1:05:30 > 1:05:38There will be tributes from members of the footballing world.
1:05:43 > 1:05:46of the footballing world.His nephew, who also played here at West
1:05:46 > 1:05:49Brom, will be paying tribute.And as you say, it is a chance to celebrate
1:05:49 > 1:05:53the life of a man who was not just a great footballer, but a pioneer who
1:05:53 > 1:06:05helped to effect social care of great racial divide.
1:06:06 > 1:06:10David Beckham says he hopes to recruit some of the world's top
1:06:10 > 1:06:14players when his Miami team play in the MLS.
1:06:14 > 1:06:16He's acquired the rights to a new franchise four years ago
1:06:16 > 1:06:20but has only now been able to launch the project after finding a site
1:06:20 > 1:06:26for a 25,000 seater stadium.
1:06:26 > 1:06:28I have been able to experience different leagues and different
1:06:28 > 1:06:30cultures.
1:06:30 > 1:06:32So that is where I can add my expertise into this ownership
1:06:32 > 1:06:36group, and that will be my role, to bring great and talented players,
1:06:36 > 1:06:38but also to build this academy that we keep talking about.
1:06:38 > 1:06:41We have a hotbed of talent in young kids here.
1:06:41 > 1:06:43If we build the right facilities and bring
1:06:43 > 1:06:46we have a hell of a chance of bringing
1:06:46 > 1:06:50in home-grown talent into this team.
1:06:50 > 1:06:53The new England Women's Head Coach Phil Neville has called
1:06:53 > 1:06:59on his former club Manchester United to become a pioneer
1:06:59 > 1:07:03for the women's game.
1:07:03 > 1:07:08Neville apologised again for historic sexist tweets, defended his
1:07:08 > 1:07:08coaching CV.
1:07:08 > 1:07:11United are the only top side in the country
1:07:11 > 1:07:12not to run a women's team.
1:07:12 > 1:07:19They say the situation is under review.
1:07:19 > 1:07:21That is all the sport for now.
1:07:21 > 1:07:25A leaked government document suggests that the UK economy
1:07:25 > 1:07:28will grow at a slower rate outside the European Union, no matter
1:07:28 > 1:07:32what deal is struck with Brussels.
1:07:32 > 1:07:39Our political guru Norman Smith can tell us more.
1:07:39 > 1:07:44What is this document and what does it suggest?This is an internal
1:07:44 > 1:07:47government report which looks at some of the options facing the UK
1:07:47 > 1:07:51once we leave the EU in terms of their impact on Brexit. And it
1:07:51 > 1:07:56paints a bleak picture. It suggests, for example, that if we walk away
1:07:56 > 1:07:59without a deal, the economy will take an 8% hit over the next 15
1:07:59 > 1:08:04years. We get a standard free trade agreement, that is still a five
1:08:04 > 1:08:07person it and if we stay in the single market, that is the least
1:08:07 > 1:08:13worst option, with only a 2% hit, all of which has fuelled suspicions
1:08:13 > 1:08:18that maybe this report was leaked by those who are trying to soften Mrs
1:08:18 > 1:08:24May's approach to Brexit. Remember, the Chancellor, just the other day
1:08:24 > 1:08:28was saying, we only want to move away very modestly. Today, one of
1:08:28 > 1:08:33his closest supporters, Stephen Hammond, a Conservative MP, was
1:08:33 > 1:08:38saying the government ought to publish this report.
1:08:38 > 1:08:42If it has been nicked, they should publish it. They may have wanted to
1:08:42 > 1:08:45keep it confidential, but now it has been leaked, the best thing for the
1:08:45 > 1:08:49government would be to announce that they are going to publish it.And do
1:08:49 > 1:08:55you think there is an attempt, as Brexiteers say, to diluted Brexit?
1:08:55 > 1:08:59No. We voted to leave. We are leaving the European Union. We
1:08:59 > 1:09:05didn't ask the question on the 23rd of June 2016 about how we live, and
1:09:05 > 1:09:07that is what debate is. Some of those Brexiteers may want to crash
1:09:07 > 1:09:12out of the European Union and cause untold harm to our economy, jobs and
1:09:12 > 1:09:17security. I want to see a Brexit that is a smart Brexit in the
1:09:17 > 1:09:23interests of the UK and jobs.
1:09:23 > 1:09:25interests of the UK and jobs.Less talk to one of those Brexiteers. I
1:09:25 > 1:09:29am joined by Nigel Evans. Do you think this is a dirty tricks
1:09:29 > 1:09:33campaign to try and intimidate people from thinking Brexit will be
1:09:33 > 1:09:36easy and maybe encourage Mrs May to go for a softer Brexit, closer to
1:09:36 > 1:09:45the single market?Yes! Clearly, it has been licked by somebody who
1:09:45 > 1:09:51thinks it bolsters the softest possible Brexit. I agree with
1:09:51 > 1:09:53Stephen Hammond. We might as well publish the report and the
1:09:53 > 1:10:00methodology of the report. Anybody who is worried about the analysis
1:10:00 > 1:10:05that has come out of date, just read this analysis which came out one
1:10:05 > 1:10:10month before the referendum took place in 2016. It came out in May
1:10:10 > 1:10:15and we had the referendum in June. The forward is by George Osborne and
1:10:15 > 1:10:18it talks about two scenarios that would happen if we voted to leave.
1:10:18 > 1:10:23One is grim and the other is very grim. It talks about a recession
1:10:23 > 1:10:28happening, the GDP going down by 3.6%, unemployment is going up by
1:10:28 > 1:10:32half a million. And what has happened? Unemployment has gone down
1:10:32 > 1:10:35every month, employment has gone up. We have seen the stock market at
1:10:35 > 1:10:40record levels and the pound is back to $1.40. So they might as well
1:10:40 > 1:10:43publish the report and the methodology. And what has happened
1:10:43 > 1:10:49to the people who produced this report?Are you also clear on the
1:10:49 > 1:10:54fact that if we remain in this kind of transition phase for two years,
1:10:54 > 1:10:57we will, as some Brexiteers are saying, really still be in the EU?
1:10:57 > 1:11:04We will be a vassal state. Technically, we have let left on
1:11:04 > 1:11:08March the 29th, 2019. But for that condition period, we are still
1:11:08 > 1:11:13paying in, still complying with all the rules.So do you think this is
1:11:13 > 1:11:20part of a great seller?No, I think it is a practical way of exiting the
1:11:20 > 1:11:23European Union without doing massive damage to the United Kingdom
1:11:23 > 1:11:28economy. During that period, we will have Liam Fox travelling the world,
1:11:28 > 1:11:32negotiating trade deals. And as soon as the transition period is over,
1:11:32 > 1:11:35they then become effective. So I am quite bullish. You have the Prime
1:11:35 > 1:11:40Minister going to China's today with 50 top industrialists, looking to
1:11:40 > 1:11:44expand the British market. So your views and Philip Hammond's views are
1:11:44 > 1:11:49not clear enough. The only person's views which are not clear are the
1:11:49 > 1:11:54Prime Minister's. No. We are clear. We are leaving the European Union.
1:11:54 > 1:12:01We are having control of our borders as far as immigration is concerned.
1:12:01 > 1:12:05Why are people saying the window is closing on her leadership, the?
1:12:05 > 1:12:08There is a small number of people who feel bitter that their greatness
1:12:08 > 1:12:12has either been overlooked or they were sacked. There is another small
1:12:12 > 1:12:16group who would prefer that we stay in the European Union, and that is
1:12:16 > 1:12:21not happening either. Jeremy Corbyn closed the possibility of a second
1:12:21 > 1:12:25referendum on Sunday. Then they thought, maybe we could stay in the
1:12:25 > 1:12:30single market, and Jeremy Corbyn closed that window is well on the
1:12:30 > 1:12:33Andrew Marr programme. If the window is closing on anybody, it is those
1:12:33 > 1:12:38who believe that somehow, we can stay in the European Union.But
1:12:38 > 1:12:42should you be relaxed? We read Liam Fox this morning in the Sun, saying
1:12:42 > 1:12:48to people like you, be wary. There is going to be disappointment.The
1:12:48 > 1:12:51only disappointment will be for those who believe that they can
1:12:51 > 1:12:56somehow kick leaving the European Union into the long grass. We read
1:12:56 > 1:12:59in the newspapers over the weekend that somehow, the transition period,
1:12:59 > 1:13:03which was two years, is now going to be three years, which would take us
1:13:03 > 1:13:06past the general election. Theresa May has dismissed that as
1:13:06 > 1:13:13speculation. So I am very buoyant about the possibilities for the
1:13:13 > 1:13:16United Kingdom, post-Brexit. I think the potential is massive. Just focus
1:13:16 > 1:13:21on what's Theresa May will be doing in China and the potential for
1:13:21 > 1:13:25businesses to be able to export and do deals with the Chinese.What do
1:13:25 > 1:13:27you say to the Brexited supporters who will look at what has happened
1:13:27 > 1:13:32so far attempt will say, we have given the EU £39 billion, we are
1:13:32 > 1:13:35going to have a two-year add-on transition phase and by the way, we
1:13:35 > 1:13:40are going to keep taking EU rules. Aren't they are entitled to save
1:13:40 > 1:13:45this doesn't look like the Brexit we voted for?It is the Brexit we voted
1:13:45 > 1:13:49for. You couldn't get more Brexiteer than me, Norman. I can't wait to
1:13:49 > 1:13:53leave the European Union, and I am happy that the pragmatic approach by
1:13:53 > 1:13:56the Prime Minister that is going to take us through that two-year period
1:13:56 > 1:14:03until we effectively stop paying in. That money will then go to British
1:14:03 > 1:14:06public services like the National Health Service, like teaching, the
1:14:06 > 1:14:10police and the armed services. And those who say we should remain or
1:14:10 > 1:14:15stay in a customs union, paying British taxpayers' money to access a
1:14:15 > 1:14:19market where we have a massive deficit, they are denying that money
1:14:19 > 1:14:23going to British public services. It is bonkers. The last thing I would
1:14:23 > 1:14:28say on the trade aspect is, remember what the President of the United
1:14:28 > 1:14:31States of America said to Theresa May in Davos last week, which is
1:14:31 > 1:14:35that he can't wait to do more trade between the USA and Britain. With
1:14:35 > 1:14:39the United States of America without a pay deal at the moment, we have a
1:14:39 > 1:14:45£50 billion surplus.As you say, Theresa May is heading off to China.
1:14:45 > 1:14:47Another former Tory leader, Mrs Thatcher, made the mistake of going
1:14:47 > 1:14:53to Paris and in her absence, moves will put a to topple her.That is
1:14:53 > 1:14:59not going to happen. I have talked to colleagues, whether they are
1:14:59 > 1:15:04Remain or Brexit. There are a small number, but there always was. Don't
1:15:04 > 1:15:06look into the crystal ball so that you can start whingeing and moaning
1:15:06 > 1:15:10about a Prime Minister that you don't like. Just look at the history
1:15:10 > 1:15:15books. What happened to John Major? Five years of carping, and what
1:15:15 > 1:15:19happened? Landslide victory for the Labour Party. This is an Theresa May
1:15:19 > 1:15:23versus Philip Hammond or Boris Johnson or Gavin Williamson, this
1:15:23 > 1:15:28Theresa May versus Jeremy Corbyn. Make your mind up. Nigel Evans,
1:15:28 > 1:15:35thank you very much. It is all kicking off here. We also have the
1:15:35 > 1:15:39Lord's starting off their consideration of the Brexit bill,
1:15:39 > 1:15:42which will drag on for months. Brace yourselves, I'm afraid there is an
1:15:42 > 1:15:48awful lot more Brexit to come.
1:15:57 > 1:15:59This programme has been told that the roll-out of universal
1:15:59 > 1:16:02credit could leave up to one million working people at risk
1:16:02 > 1:16:04of benefit sanctions once it's fully rolled out.
1:16:04 > 1:16:06A benefit sanction is a penalty imposed on a claimant
1:16:06 > 1:16:08when they don't meet certain conditions like going
1:16:08 > 1:16:09to jobcentre appointments.
1:16:09 > 1:16:11Each year around 350,000 people are sanctioned -
1:16:11 > 1:16:14which could include a significant cut in benefits or them being
1:16:14 > 1:16:15stopped altogether for a period.
1:16:15 > 1:16:17Those sanctions used to only apply to people
1:16:17 > 1:16:23who were looking for work, but now for the first time
1:16:23 > 1:16:24under Universal Credit, people who are already working
1:16:24 > 1:16:25could be sanctioned.
1:16:25 > 1:16:29Our reporter John Owen has been to meet a man who was financially
1:16:29 > 1:16:30penalised for attended a funeral.
1:16:30 > 1:16:31We bought you his full report earlier.
1:16:31 > 1:16:39Here's a short extract.
1:16:39 > 1:16:41Conditionality, or the requirement for claimants to do certain things
1:16:41 > 1:16:44like look for work or attend meetings at the job centre in order
1:16:44 > 1:16:47to continue receiving benefits, has been a feature of the welfare
1:16:47 > 1:16:48system for years.
1:16:48 > 1:16:50Those who fail to meet their obligations risk
1:16:50 > 1:16:52being sanctioned and could face a partial reduction in benefit
1:16:52 > 1:16:54payments or even their benefits being stopped altogether.
1:16:54 > 1:16:57The Government says that the number of people being sanctioned
1:16:57 > 1:16:59each year is falling, but the welfare system is currently
1:16:59 > 1:17:02undergoing the biggest shake-up for a generation as every month,
1:17:02 > 1:17:06thousands of claimants are moved from legacy benefits
1:17:06 > 1:17:08like jobseeker's allowance and onto the new Universal Credit
1:17:08 > 1:17:10system, which merges six benefits into a single monthly payment.
1:17:10 > 1:17:16With that shift will come a sharp increase in the number of claimants
1:17:16 > 1:17:19who will be exposed to the risk of being sanctioned.
1:17:19 > 1:17:22That's because Universal Credit means that people in low-paid work
1:17:22 > 1:17:25as well as those who are out of work will face the possibility
1:17:25 > 1:17:28of losing their benefits if they fail to meet obligations set
1:17:28 > 1:17:30out by the Government.
1:17:30 > 1:17:32Gareth Forrest, a former employee of the Department
1:17:32 > 1:17:34for Work and Pensions, lives in Preston with his partner.
1:17:34 > 1:17:37In recent weeks, he's received heavy sanctions and may now be facing
1:17:37 > 1:17:41eviction as a result of falling behind with the rent.
1:17:41 > 1:17:44You wake up in the morning, thinking, is this the final day
1:17:44 > 1:17:47when you're going to be told to leave?
1:17:47 > 1:17:54Waiting for information from the benefits, to see
1:17:54 > 1:17:56if they are going to reinstate the payments and reduce
1:17:56 > 1:17:57the sanctioning.
1:17:57 > 1:18:00Until you know that information, then you're going to be worrying
1:18:00 > 1:18:03each day and it's not just a case of each day, it's each
1:18:03 > 1:18:05hour, each minute.
1:18:05 > 1:18:09As a Universal Credit claimant, he also has experience
1:18:09 > 1:18:11of being sanctioned whilst in work as a result of not
1:18:11 > 1:18:13looking for more hours.
1:18:13 > 1:18:16There have been deductions where you tell them that you work
1:18:16 > 1:18:20so many hours and they tell you to work more, find more.
1:18:20 > 1:18:22Gareth says that one of his more recent sanctions resulted
1:18:22 > 1:18:24from attending a funeral instead of going to a meeting
1:18:24 > 1:18:26at the job centre.
1:18:26 > 1:18:32I even had a phone call from the job centre on the day of the funeral.
1:18:32 > 1:18:35They were saying that, "Are you sure you are at the funeral?
1:18:35 > 1:18:36Are you not lying?"
1:18:36 > 1:18:39David Webster is a leading authority on the welfare system and he's
1:18:39 > 1:18:42concerned that the use of sanctions amounts to a form of what he calls
1:18:42 > 1:18:44extrajudicial punishment and a parallel legal system,
1:18:44 > 1:18:46operating without the safeguards found in the courts.
1:18:46 > 1:18:48It is a full-blown penal system, a system of punishment
1:18:48 > 1:18:53for supposed offences.
1:18:53 > 1:18:55David explained that Universal Credit currently has
1:18:55 > 1:18:57a higher rate of sanctioning than its predecessors and that once
1:18:57 > 1:19:00it's completely rolled out, more people than ever will be
1:19:00 > 1:19:03vulnerable to being sanctioned.
1:19:03 > 1:19:06I don't think people have realised quite how drastic this system
1:19:06 > 1:19:08is and what an extraordinary extension of the control
1:19:08 > 1:19:11of the state over individuals' lives it is and what an extraordinary
1:19:11 > 1:19:19attack it is on the rights of the citizen.
1:19:19 > 1:19:23So why do policymakers want to maintain and expand conditionality?
1:19:23 > 1:19:25Matthew Oakley led an independent review of jobseeker's allowance
1:19:25 > 1:19:27sanctions and reported to Parliament in 2014.
1:19:27 > 1:19:29He explains why, in his view, conditionality in the system,
1:19:29 > 1:19:36including the use of sanctions, is necessary.
1:19:36 > 1:19:38Ultimately, people in low-paid work who are capable,
1:19:38 > 1:19:41able to work for longer hours, you know, they are still claiming
1:19:41 > 1:19:43benefits and they could very well move off benefits
1:19:43 > 1:19:44by increasing their hours.
1:19:44 > 1:19:49So I think it is right that we require them to do so.
1:19:49 > 1:19:51The former Work and Pensions Secretary, David Gauke,
1:19:51 > 1:19:53told Andrew Marr just before Christmas that sanctions
1:19:53 > 1:19:55are appropriate in some cases where benefit conditions
1:19:55 > 1:20:02are not being met.
1:20:02 > 1:20:04He said the amount of sanctions had fallen in 2017
1:20:04 > 1:20:08compared to previous years.
1:20:08 > 1:20:11We have seen fewer sanctions over 2017 than we did in 2016 and 2015,
1:20:11 > 1:20:16so the number of sanctions is coming down.
1:20:16 > 1:20:18You say I've got it wrong. Let me read you this.
1:20:18 > 1:20:20This is the Public Accounts Committee in February.
1:20:20 > 1:20:23"Sanctions have increased in severity in recent years and can
1:20:23 > 1:20:25have serious consequences such as debt, rent arrears
1:20:25 > 1:20:26and homelessness".
1:20:26 > 1:20:30Are they wrong?
1:20:30 > 1:20:33It is the case that in the last couple of years, the number
1:20:33 > 1:20:34of sanctions has fallen.
1:20:34 > 1:20:36Let's also remember that we have a welfare system
1:20:36 > 1:20:39that is based on conditionality, and rightly so.
1:20:39 > 1:20:42We pay money to people, but there are certain
1:20:42 > 1:20:43conditions that are in place.
1:20:43 > 1:20:46We do expect people to comply with those conditions.
1:20:46 > 1:20:49In some cases where those conditions are not met,
1:20:49 > 1:20:50it is appropriate to have a sanction.
1:20:50 > 1:20:52If you don't have sanctions, you don't have conditionality
1:20:52 > 1:21:00and you don't change behaviour.
1:21:09 > 1:21:11David Finch is from the Resolution Foundation.
1:21:11 > 1:21:12They've been analysing how Universal Credit might affect
1:21:12 > 1:21:15living standards in the UK as it is rolled out.
1:21:15 > 1:21:23Matthew Oakley is director of WPI Economics
1:21:30 > 1:21:33And he believes the government's changes on Universal Credit and says
1:21:33 > 1:21:35the system is "fair".
1:21:35 > 1:21:39One million people in work could still face being sanctioned?There
1:21:39 > 1:21:44are two sides of this. It is balancing that potential risk of
1:21:44 > 1:21:47sanctioning, but the support that can bring to low paid people. So in
1:21:47 > 1:21:51the UK we have got a big low pay problem in the labour market. A
1:21:51 > 1:21:56fifth of low paid workers are in the UK. So actually it is a good thing
1:21:56 > 1:21:58that the Government are looking to provide some form of support to
1:21:58 > 1:22:03people who are in work. We do think it is up to one million people who
1:22:03 > 1:22:06will be brought into the new conditionality regime, but there are
1:22:06 > 1:22:09really questions around just making sure they get that balance of
1:22:09 > 1:22:13support right and you don't end up with a kind of unfair system.OK. It
1:22:13 > 1:22:18doesn't sound like you're that worried then. Would that be fair?
1:22:18 > 1:22:25There is reason to be positive. The risks really come from the fact that
1:22:25 > 1:22:28nowhere in the world really does this at the moment and it will be
1:22:28 > 1:22:33hard to get the process right. It has taken two decades to get to a
1:22:33 > 1:22:37stage where we have an efficient system for employed people and help
1:22:37 > 1:22:42them more into work and get it right for people who are in work. I think
1:22:42 > 1:22:46it will be really tough. In some ways, there is actually credit for
1:22:46 > 1:22:48the Government because they are going to test an approach for the
1:22:48 > 1:22:52next year and try and get the support right. I think we would like
1:22:52 > 1:22:55them to be more ambitious and help people progress on to the high
1:22:55 > 1:23:00levels of pay.Matthew, how do you think imposing these conditions, if
1:23:00 > 1:23:05you do, helps people into further paid work and increase their
1:23:05 > 1:23:09salaries?What we have seen from evidence of people who are out of
1:23:09 > 1:23:14work is that conditions placed on benefits actually improves the speed
1:23:14 > 1:23:18with which they move from benefits and into work. Now the point here is
1:23:18 > 1:23:22that the new benefit, Universal Credit, will provide support to
1:23:22 > 1:23:25people who might be working three or four hours a week. That's a
1:23:25 > 1:23:28completely new thing. Previously, the Government would have required
1:23:28 > 1:23:33people to work 16 or 30 hours a week to get in work benefits. By reducing
1:23:33 > 1:23:36that down, you're giving more support to more people, but it's
1:23:36 > 1:23:42right to require them to do more to try and find better work. Providing
1:23:42 > 1:23:46support to help people move into higher paid, better paid, longer
1:23:46 > 1:23:50hours jobs can really improve the situation. This is not just about
1:23:50 > 1:23:55saying OK, you are not in a high paid job, we are going to sanction
1:23:55 > 1:24:00you. This is about you are not working many hours, you are capable
1:24:00 > 1:24:03of working in a better paid job. In return, we expect you to work for
1:24:03 > 1:24:07it. That sounds fair and effective. You make it sound really simple. It
1:24:07 > 1:24:13is easy to get more hours and get more payNot at all. This isn't
1:24:13 > 1:24:18going to be a penalty for people who don't find more hours or more pay.
1:24:18 > 1:24:22It is simply saying you are on low paid work. You are working few
1:24:22 > 1:24:26hours. We want to give you, the Government wants to give you support
1:24:26 > 1:24:29to increase your hours and increase your pay. To my mind that's a good
1:24:29 > 1:24:34thing. If people don't take on that support, it is right there is a
1:24:34 > 1:24:40penalty for doing so.The DWP say we are committed to helping people
1:24:40 > 1:24:43improve their lives. Sanctions are only used when someone has failed to
1:24:43 > 1:24:46meet the requirements without good reason. This is in a small minority
1:24:46 > 1:24:50of cases and people are given every opportunity to explain why they
1:24:50 > 1:24:55failed to do so before a decision is made." One gentleman was going to a
1:24:55 > 1:24:59funeral. Gave them the order of service after he had been to the
1:24:59 > 1:25:04funeral and yet he was still sanctioned.That's completely wrong.
1:25:04 > 1:25:08I mean, if you speak with the claimants, the thing that annoys
1:25:08 > 1:25:11them most is when they have been doing the right thing and they are
1:25:11 > 1:25:14penalised for doing that. Clearly, that has gone wrong in that
1:25:14 > 1:25:19situation. But I think what we need to look at is the broader principle,
1:25:19 > 1:25:23not just at isolated cases where things go wrong. The principle that
1:25:23 > 1:25:27people working low hours or out of work, get support and should do
1:25:27 > 1:25:31something in return for the support. Are women penalised most by this
1:25:31 > 1:25:36system?I think, they are not necessarily penalised most, but
1:25:36 > 1:25:39Universal Credit is bringing in extra conditionality and that's
1:25:39 > 1:25:43likely to overly affect women more than men. The big thing that's
1:25:43 > 1:25:47happening are people in...Because they do part-time work and lower
1:25:47 > 1:25:51paid work.And with younger children and so, that is going to affect
1:25:51 > 1:25:57women and there is a bigger problem. When we look at the Universal Credit
1:25:57 > 1:26:01system, the generosity of support that it gives to working people has
1:26:01 > 1:26:05been reduced significantly and that puts not just the practical support
1:26:05 > 1:26:08but the financial return for people to move into work and increase their
1:26:08 > 1:26:11hours is reduced from the original scheme and that brings a greater
1:26:11 > 1:26:16risk that it places greater, places greater emphasise on the practical
1:26:16 > 1:26:20support and the conditions to help, well to push people up to work more
1:26:20 > 1:26:24hours and that's a risk that you could start to get people not find
1:26:24 > 1:26:27themselves significantly better off, by being forced to work more hours.
1:26:27 > 1:26:35Got you. Thank you, David Finch, thank you very much and Matthew
1:26:35 > 1:26:39Oakley from WPI Economics. Thank you very much.
1:26:39 > 1:26:44Still to come:
1:26:44 > 1:26:46The funeral for former West Brom and England player
1:26:46 > 1:26:49Cyrille Regis is taking place today.
1:26:49 > 1:26:53He was a trailblazer for black players and we will hear tributes to
1:26:53 > 1:26:58him.
1:27:05 > 1:27:08A senior Conservative MP and former army captain has told this programme
1:27:08 > 1:27:11that he thinks the Prime Minister has three months to turn it around
1:27:11 > 1:27:14or face the prospect of losing the support of her party.
1:27:14 > 1:27:17Johnny Mercer says that he thinks the local elections in May will be
1:27:17 > 1:27:18the tipping point for Theresa May.
1:27:18 > 1:27:20We can talk to him now.
1:27:20 > 1:27:23Why is the window closing?I have said this comment that the window is
1:27:23 > 1:27:27closing. Even that report from Norman Smith he added the bit on
1:27:27 > 1:27:31that the window is closing on Theresa May's leadership. We have an
1:27:31 > 1:27:41opportunity to deliver what people voted for when we get elected. That
1:27:41 > 1:27:45phrase the window is closing has been used for all manner of things
1:27:45 > 1:27:49over the last 24 hours of none of which I meant.You meant the window
1:27:49 > 1:27:52is closing on your opportunity to deliver on the policies that she
1:27:52 > 1:27:58said...Correct.How long has she got?I think with all these things
1:27:58 > 1:28:01in politics, people elect you to get things done and clearly, when she
1:28:01 > 1:28:07gave her speech on the steps of ten Downing Street a lot was expected. I
1:28:07 > 1:28:11think Brexit is an extraordinarily difficult process and I will always
1:28:11 > 1:28:15do whatever I can to encourage us to deliver...Of course you will. Of
1:28:15 > 1:28:19course you will. What I'm asking you is how long does she have to turn
1:28:19 > 1:28:24things round?You can't put a date on how long has she got and if she
1:28:24 > 1:28:29doesn't deliver by this stage X and Y will happen.Sorry to interrupt,
1:28:29 > 1:28:33but by using the phrase, "The window is closing" you're thinking about a
1:28:33 > 1:28:39time frame?I'm thinking that you can feel in politics when people are
1:28:39 > 1:28:41extremely popular like they were going into the general election and
1:28:41 > 1:28:45then you can feel when that starts to wane as it is on the doors at the
1:28:45 > 1:28:48moment. It is not about saying Theresa May has got X amount of
1:28:48 > 1:28:52time. A change in leadership is not is what is required at this moment
1:28:52 > 1:28:55going through the Brexit negotiations and so on. But if you
1:28:55 > 1:29:00are going to take these sorts of phrases and blow them out of
1:29:00 > 1:29:02proportion, then people like me won't come on and have honest
1:29:02 > 1:29:04conversations about what we think is going on.I think that's really
1:29:04 > 1:29:09unfair. I don't think I'm blowing that out of proportion.Not you. I'm
1:29:09 > 1:29:15talking about within the media in general.OK. You won't like this
1:29:15 > 1:29:22question. What if nothing has changed in three months' time?I
1:29:22 > 1:29:26think things will change. We have got local elections coming up in
1:29:26 > 1:29:30Plymouth. It is on a knife edge and we need to give people something to
1:29:30 > 1:29:36vote for so we can continue to get our message across about what a
1:29:36 > 1:29:40modern, compassionate Conservative Party is about in these places that
1:29:40 > 1:29:45feel left behind. We have a real job of work to do in politics and I
1:29:45 > 1:29:49really want to see us get on with it.She has got rid of stamp duty
1:29:49 > 1:29:53for almost first-time buyers. She has continued to freeze fuel duty.
1:29:53 > 1:29:57Almost 400,000 new jobs created in the year to August last year. The
1:29:57 > 1:30:01economy has continued to grow. The national house building council says
1:30:01 > 1:30:05builders registered plans to start building 160,000 new homes last
1:30:05 > 1:30:09year, that's the highest number since the financial crash. You're
1:30:09 > 1:30:13not talking about that and nor are your colleagues.This is the issue
1:30:13 > 1:30:19about it. To be fair, I do talk about these things. They don't get
1:30:19 > 1:30:23the often you will find the things you say around Theresa May, around
1:30:23 > 1:30:28the military get more coverage. I'm forever talking about how this
1:30:28 > 1:30:35government has transformed lives in places like Plymouth. We saw last
1:30:35 > 1:30:38week the unemployment records which are extraordinary. Look, we have a
1:30:38 > 1:30:42very good news story to tell and that's what I want to get this
1:30:42 > 1:30:47agenda on to. If we talk down what's going on, we won't get a good deal
1:30:47 > 1:30:50from the EU and won't represent people who voted for Brexit and we
1:30:50 > 1:30:55need to up our game.A few years ago you had never even voted in a
1:30:55 > 1:31:00general election. Now, you are talked about by some as a potential
1:31:00 > 1:31:04Conservative leader. How does that feel?I think it is desperately
1:31:04 > 1:31:08unrealistic. I feel that I've come here to get things done. I think
1:31:08 > 1:31:11Parliament is a vehicle. It is not an end state. It is not a career.
1:31:11 > 1:31:15I'm not overly interested in what job I per se go on to do. I have a
1:31:15 > 1:31:19series of things I want to achieve for Plymouth, for where I came from
1:31:19 > 1:31:22in the military, for mental health communities in places like Plymouth
1:31:22 > 1:31:28and I just get on with that. People, the Westminster sort of bubble is an
1:31:28 > 1:31:31extraordinary place where I think people obsess about whether people
1:31:31 > 1:31:34talk about who is going to be Chancellor, who is going to be Prime
1:31:34 > 1:31:38Minister. The reality is in the country. It is not like that at all.
1:31:38 > 1:31:39You represent something and if you're lucky enough, people will
1:31:39 > 1:31:43vote for that and vote for what they want. It is not a question of
1:31:43 > 1:31:46putting yourself forward for it and I think people fundamentally
1:31:46 > 1:31:49understand that process which is why, you know, we are in a pretty
1:31:49 > 1:31:55tight spot at the moment.
1:31:55 > 1:31:58Do you get frustrated about when you're trying to achieve something,
1:31:58 > 1:32:03but perhaps the machinery of Westminster doesn't allow you to do
1:32:03 > 1:32:08anything swiftly?Absolutely. We did some great work on this programme 18
1:32:08 > 1:32:12months ago on veterans' care. Since I came to this place, I have felt
1:32:12 > 1:32:16that that is something I wanted to change. We have made progress, but
1:32:16 > 1:32:20of course I find it frustrating. I have failed in transforming
1:32:20 > 1:32:24veterinarys' care in this country. We are making progress on mental
1:32:24 > 1:32:29health, particularly in Plymouth. At times, things are easier to get done
1:32:29 > 1:32:35locally than nationally. So there is frustration, but it's the same with
1:32:35 > 1:32:39anything. You don't throw your toys out of the pram. You come here
1:32:39 > 1:32:42because you want to fight for these people. I am more than happy to have
1:32:42 > 1:32:49that fight. What do you think of the idea of a 24/7 helpline to connect
1:32:49 > 1:32:55ex-servicemen and women with mental health support? I think is
1:32:55 > 1:32:59important. I support the concept of having a better mental health system
1:32:59 > 1:33:02for Armed Forces. But the problem is that if you have a number of
1:33:02 > 1:33:06different telephone numbers and access points, it is still not good
1:33:06 > 1:33:10enough for those trying to use the system. Since I came to this place,
1:33:10 > 1:33:15I have tried to professionalise the offer we give our veterans. So
1:33:15 > 1:33:19whilst it is welcomed, there is no real strategic, bold leadership on
1:33:19 > 1:33:24this veterinary care issue. I would feel comfortable going out in
1:33:24 > 1:33:28Plymouth and saying yes, get hold of this person and you will be pointed
1:33:28 > 1:33:32in the right direction. We have set one up locally in Plymouth and it
1:33:32 > 1:33:35has worked. Somebody wrote to me last week who had gone to a veteran
1:33:35 > 1:33:41gateway we set up in Plymouth. We have to be more proactive with this
1:33:41 > 1:33:46reform. Reforming charity is a difficult thing to do. But
1:33:46 > 1:33:50ultimately, it's about the people who use that service. It's like
1:33:50 > 1:33:53government. There is no point talking about how well we are doing
1:33:53 > 1:33:57and how much we are pouring into disability services. It is how it
1:33:57 > 1:34:01feels for those who rely on government, who are in these
1:34:01 > 1:34:04communities, who are in mental health communities and rely on us.
1:34:04 > 1:34:11That is how we should mark our work. So we have some way to go on
1:34:11 > 1:34:16veterinary care, but it has got better. This minister has done well
1:34:16 > 1:34:21-- on veterans' care. This country is going through the biggest reform
1:34:21 > 1:34:25of political machinery since 1945, and people like me have to be
1:34:25 > 1:34:29realistic about that as well.You mean Brexit is taking up so much
1:34:29 > 1:34:33time?Absolutely. We have seen it again this morning, wall-to-wall
1:34:33 > 1:34:39coverage of Brexit. My plea on this to the Prime Minister and the
1:34:39 > 1:34:42government is, people want us to answer the other fundamental
1:34:42 > 1:34:46challenges of the day as well around defence and health care. Ultimately,
1:34:46 > 1:34:52that is what they will vote about, and that is important.Your book
1:34:52 > 1:34:56looks at your time of serving in Afghanistan. What impact did that
1:34:56 > 1:35:04have on your own mental health? Serving in Afghanistan or the book?
1:35:04 > 1:35:11Look, initially I didn't want to write the book. When you come here,
1:35:11 > 1:35:15you are not a loner, but you are a personal individual and you don't
1:35:15 > 1:35:20share your business easily. But I have realised that things like
1:35:20 > 1:35:23writing a book and doing media and going on the telly, you can get
1:35:23 > 1:35:27through to people who may have been in a similar position. The book was
1:35:27 > 1:35:34good like that because it helped me to codify what had gone on,
1:35:34 > 1:35:37certainly in the early stages of my life and then the Afghanistan
1:35:37 > 1:35:43experience. I didn't want to write about bombs and bullets and all this
1:35:43 > 1:35:46other stuff that doesn't interest me, but what it actually felt like
1:35:46 > 1:35:53for the men and women who served and how special I thought they were in
1:35:53 > 1:35:58these remote conflicts. It didn't affect my mental health, because I
1:35:58 > 1:36:02had other challenges leading up to that point. I actually found
1:36:02 > 1:36:04Afghanistan experience rather helpful, which is a strange way of
1:36:04 > 1:36:09looking at it. But I was determined to tell the story of a generation
1:36:09 > 1:36:16who served overseas, not because it is anything special, but because
1:36:16 > 1:36:21people deserve to know what guys and girls are doing in their name so
1:36:21 > 1:36:26that they help when they come home. Are you less cross now than you were
1:36:26 > 1:36:34at the start of this interview?I wasn't cross!You were irritated.
1:36:34 > 1:36:39You go out and try and do the right thing and have an encouraging
1:36:39 > 1:36:42conversation and they understand why journalists want to put the blow was
1:36:42 > 1:36:45under something, but we mustn't get into the realm of adding things to
1:36:45 > 1:36:53turn it into something you want.I didn't do that.You were fantastic.
1:36:53 > 1:36:56The audience would beg to disagree. Thank you for coming on the
1:36:56 > 1:37:01programme. Let me bring you two pieces of news. David Tennant has
1:37:01 > 1:37:04accepted substantial damages and an apology from newsgroup newspapers to
1:37:04 > 1:37:08settle his High Court claim over phone hacking at the News of the
1:37:08 > 1:37:12World. That has just been sorted. The News of the World closed a
1:37:12 > 1:37:15number of years ago, but David Tennant has accepted undisclosed
1:37:15 > 1:37:20damages and an apology to settle his High Court claim over phone hacking
1:37:20 > 1:37:25at the News of the World. And this statement from the BBC about pay.
1:37:25 > 1:37:30Today the BBC has published a review of on-air pay, carried out by
1:37:30 > 1:37:34PricewaterhouseCoopers and set up a 5-point plan to create a fairer and
1:37:34 > 1:37:41more equal BBC. The plan unveiled includes substantial pay cuts for
1:37:41 > 1:37:47some men and increases for some male and female presenters. Prominent men
1:37:47 > 1:37:52in BBC News have already accepted pay cuts. A new on-air framework for
1:37:52 > 1:37:56determining the pay of people on-air, an equal and transparent
1:37:56 > 1:38:01structure for the future, greater pay transparency. The BBC says it
1:38:01 > 1:38:04aims to be the most transparent organisation when it comes to pay.
1:38:04 > 1:38:08Review of career progression and working practices for women. The BBC
1:38:08 > 1:38:12is it will look at what more it can do to make the BBC a better place
1:38:12 > 1:38:16for women to work and they say they will accelerate all this work to
1:38:16 > 1:38:22achieve 50-50 representation across the BBC by 2020. Obviously, we will
1:38:22 > 1:38:29bring you reaction to that 5-point BBC plan in the next half-hour.
1:38:29 > 1:38:32Laura Plummer, a British woman, has been sentenced to three years
1:38:32 > 1:38:34in an Egyptian prison for smuggling painkillers into the country.
1:38:34 > 1:38:39We'll speak to someone who spent time in the same jail.
1:38:39 > 1:38:47Time for the latest news, here's Ben.
1:38:48 > 1:38:51The government has played down link analysis of how three outcomes of
1:38:51 > 1:38:55Brexit will affect the document the macro economy. The document mesh the
1:38:55 > 1:39:00likely impact of continued access to the single market, a free-trade
1:39:00 > 1:39:02agreement with Europe and no deal. It concludes that all would result
1:39:02 > 1:39:07in a lower growth rates than if the UK were to remain part of the EU.
1:39:07 > 1:39:12Sources say Theresa May's preferred bespoke agreement was not studied.
1:39:12 > 1:39:15Police say a former soldier is believed to have carried out seven
1:39:15 > 1:39:17raids with military planning.
1:39:17 > 1:39:24They have released CCTV footage of a suspect who is accused
1:39:24 > 1:39:27of carrying out robberies in the Home Counties
1:39:27 > 1:39:29where he knew the exact location of safes.
1:39:29 > 1:39:32The owners were robbed while being threatened with a sawn off
1:39:32 > 1:39:34shotgun.
1:39:34 > 1:39:37The Irish government has agreed to hold a referendum on liberalising
1:39:37 > 1:39:38abortion laws at the end of May.
1:39:38 > 1:39:42The Prime Minister Leo Varadkar said there must be an end to women having
1:39:42 > 1:39:44to go abroad for terminations.
1:39:44 > 1:39:45The Republic of Ireland currently has a
1:39:45 > 1:39:50near total ban on abortion.
1:39:50 > 1:39:52That's a summary of the latest BBC News.
1:39:52 > 1:39:57Here's some sport now with Olly.
1:39:57 > 1:40:04In sport, David Beckham has been given the go-ahead
1:40:04 > 1:40:06for entering a Miami franchise in major league soccer.
1:40:06 > 1:40:08They have found a site for a new 25,000 seater stadium
1:40:08 > 1:40:11and he says he hopes to recruit some of the world's top stars.
1:40:11 > 1:40:14The New England women's head coach Phil Neville says
1:40:14 > 1:40:16he will encourage his old club manchester united
1:40:16 > 1:40:17to start a women's team.
1:40:17 > 1:40:20He says they should be the leaders and pioneers in the game.
1:40:20 > 1:40:21It's transfer deadline day tomorrow.
1:40:21 > 1:40:23Dortmund star Pierre Emerick Aubameyang is close to joining
1:40:23 > 1:40:26Arsenal, but his move may rely on a player going the other way.
1:40:26 > 1:40:29And the funeral of former West bromwich Albion and England striker
1:40:29 > 1:40:31Cyrille Regis is taking place today.
1:40:31 > 1:40:32The cortege stopped outside the Hawthorns,
1:40:32 > 1:40:35where fans had gathered.
1:40:35 > 1:40:43He died earlier this month at the age of 59.
1:40:46 > 1:40:51More sport on BBC News after 11.
1:40:51 > 1:40:55No evidence of gender bias in pay decision-making. But as the verdict
1:40:55 > 1:41:00of a review of on-air pay carried out by PricewaterhouseCoopers.
1:41:00 > 1:41:04According to the BBC's director-general Tony Hall in the
1:41:04 > 1:41:08last half-hour. But they say there are a number of anomalies that need
1:41:08 > 1:41:10addressing, such as a lack of openness and clear frameworks when
1:41:10 > 1:41:16it comes to pay. The transparency reasons, I am a member of the BBC
1:41:16 > 1:41:18women group which has said it has no confidence in the review released
1:41:18 > 1:41:24today. Our media and arts correspondent David Sillito is here.
1:41:24 > 1:41:31How did they reach this conclusion? 824 people. This is all news, not
1:41:31 > 1:41:34people like Chris Evans or Graham Norton or anything along those
1:41:34 > 1:41:39lines. These are just people who are on-air and in the world of news. 824
1:41:39 > 1:41:44of them, 59% of them are men, 41% are women. If you look at the
1:41:44 > 1:41:52difference in pay overall, there is a 6.8% gap, which is less than there
1:41:52 > 1:41:55is overall in the BBC and much less when you compare with other
1:41:55 > 1:42:00organisations, where there is a national dab of 18%. But the issue
1:42:00 > 1:42:06is, are they being paid fairly, men and women?Are they being paid
1:42:06 > 1:42:12equally for the same jobs? That is the issue.It is an interesting
1:42:12 > 1:42:18question. You need to go job by job. There are 230 people, mostly women,
1:42:18 > 1:42:22who have complained since the salaries were made public last July.
1:42:22 > 1:42:26So there are a lot of cases of people saying, I have not been paid
1:42:26 > 1:42:32equally with people alongside me. So the BBC says there will definitely
1:42:32 > 1:42:37be pay cuts for some men. Some men are paid too much at the top of the
1:42:37 > 1:42:43business. And there will be pay rises for some women and some men,
1:42:43 > 1:42:48they say. They will also have a clearer pay bands. You will no much
1:42:48 > 1:42:51more clearly what other people are paid who are doing the same job as
1:42:51 > 1:42:55you, and they will reduce the pay ranges in those bands. You will have
1:42:55 > 1:42:59a great idea of what the person next to you is earning, with less secrecy
1:42:59 > 1:43:03in the organisation. And there will be more scrutiny and more
1:43:03 > 1:43:09explanation as to why any presenter is paid more than £150,000. And they
1:43:09 > 1:43:15will progress towards equal on-air time and equal representation of men
1:43:15 > 1:43:22and women by 2020.Any more reaction so far?This only happened in the
1:43:22 > 1:43:27last ten minutes, so not a great deal. But those are the headlines.
1:43:27 > 1:43:34Thank you.
1:43:34 > 1:43:37Thank you. We asked the BBC if we could interview anyone from the BBC,
1:43:37 > 1:43:40and no one was available.
1:43:40 > 1:43:42Let's talk to Anne Carragher, the former controller
1:43:42 > 1:43:43of BBC Northern Ireland, and the first woman
1:43:43 > 1:43:47to hold the position.
1:43:47 > 1:43:50Your reaction firstly to the headline that there is no evidence
1:43:50 > 1:43:56of gender discrimination, say the BBC?Well, they say there is no
1:43:56 > 1:44:02evidence in decision-making, but the outcome does show a bias in gender
1:44:02 > 1:44:09pay, and that seems rather odd. It is not too bad, but that doesn't
1:44:09 > 1:44:14make it right. I haven't seen any detail, so I am reluctant to make
1:44:14 > 1:44:17pronouncements, but it seems to me from what David was saying that it
1:44:17 > 1:44:22is a very select group that they looked at and therefore does not
1:44:22 > 1:44:28necessarily reflect the corporation as a whole.Yes, that was what I was
1:44:28 > 1:44:32going to ask you. I accept that you are only just hearing these
1:44:32 > 1:44:39proposals, but is there anything here that addresses staff across the
1:44:39 > 1:44:45BBC, fair and on-air?It is hard to say from what I have heard so far.
1:44:45 > 1:44:53It may be that there will be things that apply across the BBC. The
1:44:53 > 1:44:57transparency issue is an important one. From my experience as a manager
1:44:57 > 1:45:02at the BBC, it was very hard to get information. People were secretive
1:45:02 > 1:45:07about what they were paid and what their payroll was like. It would be
1:45:07 > 1:45:12good to feel that managers were able to look across the piece and compare
1:45:12 > 1:45:17like-for-like and make their pay decisions based on that.If there is
1:45:17 > 1:45:24going to be more transparency and less secrecy, as the BBC is
1:45:24 > 1:45:28proposing, does that inevitably mean that it will be easier for people to
1:45:28 > 1:45:31look at what they are earning and compare it with someone doing the
1:45:31 > 1:45:38same job and therefore, it could lead to progress?
1:45:38 > 1:45:44AutoOh, absolutely, the BBC operates in the market place.
1:45:44 > 1:45:49Stewart Purvis was saying a lot of what BBC presenters get paid is low
1:45:49 > 1:45:53down the scale. He is a very, very hard -- these are very, very large
1:45:53 > 1:45:57sums of money, but the BBC is in the awkward position of being in a
1:45:57 > 1:45:59market place and being a public service broadcaster.Thank you very
1:45:59 > 1:46:06much. Thank you for coming on the programme. Thank you.
1:46:06 > 1:46:08Still to come: The funeral for football icon Cyrille Regus
1:46:08 > 1:46:09is taking place this morning.
1:46:09 > 1:46:12We'll look back at his life and legacy.
1:46:12 > 1:46:16The family of a British woman jailed in Egypt for smuggling painkillers
1:46:16 > 1:46:19into the country say they'll never give up trying to secure her release
1:46:19 > 1:46:21after reports of a presidential pardon turned out to be "false".
1:46:21 > 1:46:2433-year-old Laura Plummer was jailed for three years last month
1:46:24 > 1:46:31when nearly 300 Tramadol tablets were found in her luggage.
1:46:31 > 1:46:32We can speak to Pete Farmer.
1:46:32 > 1:46:36He spent two years in the same prison Laura is in and has been
1:46:36 > 1:46:42in regular contact with the family since his release.
1:46:42 > 1:46:47Hi, good morning to you.How are you?First of all, your contact with
1:46:47 > 1:46:52the family. They were expecting Laura Plummer to be released because
1:46:52 > 1:46:57she has been on the list of people who have been pardoned, but that has
1:46:57 > 1:47:01changed.I don't think she was on any pardon. Yes, she went on the
1:47:01 > 1:47:05list. There is a big list for all prisoners that go on, but what
1:47:05 > 1:47:11happened, I don't know. Something drastically went wrong. I mean
1:47:11 > 1:47:16obviously the son was informed. The British Embassy was informed that
1:47:16 > 1:47:19the paperwork was going through and then nothing. Very strange.You
1:47:19 > 1:47:25managed to speak to the family since they realised that?No. They are
1:47:25 > 1:47:30devastated. It is typical Egypt to my mind. They do play head games.
1:47:30 > 1:47:36They play head games with all the prisoners, Egyptian or foreigner.
1:47:36 > 1:47:40They build your hopes up and laugh about it basically. It is very
1:47:40 > 1:47:46unfair.What did you find in terms of the conditions of the jail that
1:47:46 > 1:47:52Laura Plummer is in?Horrendous. Unhygienic. Not safe. It is very
1:47:52 > 1:47:56dirty. There is a lot of violence and messing about from the prison
1:47:56 > 1:48:01guards. It's mind games. Torture. Torture?Torture in the police
1:48:01 > 1:48:06stations, not as much in the prison itself. I mean there is a fair bit
1:48:06 > 1:48:12of cattle prods being used on the Egyptians right in front of me.
1:48:12 > 1:48:16Random beatings, no reason. Right in front of me. I honestly thought my
1:48:16 > 1:48:21turn was coming up next, but they gave me evil eyes and moved on.How
1:48:21 > 1:48:26long were you inside there for?Two years. The full two years, all my
1:48:26 > 1:48:30pardons, I went through 15 pardons, two appeals and I was told I was
1:48:30 > 1:48:34going to get parole and they told my visitors not to turn up because
1:48:34 > 1:48:38there was a high chance I would be gone, but nothing.Why were you in
1:48:38 > 1:48:43there?I was accused of theft.And that experience as you reflect on it
1:48:43 > 1:48:48now. You say you didn't do anything? No. Yes, I picked up the bag. I
1:48:48 > 1:48:54thought it was my bag. I was drunk. I normally carry the same bag. It is
1:48:54 > 1:48:59a standard tourist bag and it was a simple mistake, but there is no
1:48:59 > 1:49:03rules in Egypt. The police make their own rules. It is very corrupt.
1:49:03 > 1:49:06You have been able to make friends with the family and give them
1:49:06 > 1:49:10guidance. What kind of advice have you been able to give to them?Just
1:49:10 > 1:49:13from the start it was guidance of the actual proceedings, how things
1:49:13 > 1:49:18are going to move forward from the court case to the appeal. What it is
1:49:18 > 1:49:22like inside the police station and what it is like inside the main
1:49:22 > 1:49:27prisons. That sort of advice. Yes, I did advice them about the pardon and
1:49:27 > 1:49:31I also said it is a very slim chance, but you have got nothing to
1:49:31 > 1:49:34lose. For sure, you have to go for every avenue to try and get out of
1:49:34 > 1:49:38there.OK. Thank you very much. Thank you for talking to us.No
1:49:38 > 1:49:43problem.
1:49:44 > 1:49:53problem.News just in. Liamlen, who you remember was charged with rape.
1:49:53 > 1:49:58His trial collapsed after it was clear there was digital evidence,
1:49:58 > 1:50:02text messages, whatsapp messages that hadn't been disclosed to the
1:50:02 > 1:50:06court that undermined the rape case against him. A review into the
1:50:06 > 1:50:10failure of disclosure process in the Liam Allen rape case found no
1:50:10 > 1:50:16evidence that any of the relevant material was withheld deliberately
1:50:16 > 1:50:19by the police officer in charge of the case or CPS prosecutors.
1:50:19 > 1:50:22However, both the CPS and the police have acknowledged that both systems
1:50:22 > 1:50:26failed to pick upperors and mistakes that were made by the officer in
1:50:26 > 1:50:33charge of the case and that the prosecutors said that they had met
1:50:33 > 1:50:38with Mr Allen yesterday and they had given him a personal apology for
1:50:38 > 1:50:42failures in the case.
1:50:42 > 1:50:45The private funeral of West Brom footballer Cyrille Regis
1:50:45 > 1:50:47is taking place this morning, attended only by close
1:50:47 > 1:50:49friends and family.
1:50:49 > 1:50:52He died on the 14th January from a heart attack.
1:50:52 > 1:50:54He's considered a footballing legend in the midlands,
1:50:54 > 1:50:57not just because he played for four of the biggest clubs in the region,
1:50:57 > 1:51:00but also because he's considered to be one of the pioneers for black
1:51:00 > 1:51:02players in the UK.
1:51:02 > 1:51:05Throughout his career he dealt with horrendous racism,
1:51:05 > 1:51:07including having a bullet sent through the post before his
1:51:07 > 1:51:10England debut at Wembley.
1:51:10 > 1:51:14We can talk to Warren Haughton, football journalist for The Sun
1:51:14 > 1:51:18and a former professional footballer who played against Cyrille.
1:51:18 > 1:51:20He also made a radio documentary about his life.
1:51:20 > 1:51:22And to Emy Onuora who interviewed Cyrille for his book,
1:51:22 > 1:51:27Pitch Black, the Story of black British footballers.
1:51:27 > 1:51:37Thank you very much for coming on its programme.
1:51:37 > 1:51:38its programme. Warren, you came across Cyrille Regis in your career,
1:51:38 > 1:51:44what do you remember of him?A great guy. For me to be on the same pitch
1:51:44 > 1:51:49was an honour. I remember playing in a game, there was a ball in the air
1:51:49 > 1:51:54and this big, huge, imposing guy who I revered and looked up to as a kid,
1:51:54 > 1:51:57he is going to challenge me and I thought it was incredible and the
1:51:57 > 1:52:02next thing I closed my eyes and I was on the floor and he looked at me
1:52:02 > 1:52:06and walked off laughing. The next time I spoke to him properly was
1:52:06 > 1:52:09when I was making a radio documentary. It was in between
1:52:09 > 1:52:12takes. It was an honour to sit down and have a really nice private
1:52:12 > 1:52:15discussion with him to talk about some of the things in his life. Some
1:52:15 > 1:52:18of the things he has gone through as well and everyone has been talking
1:52:18 > 1:52:27about how he dealt with those things. He dealt with, you know, he
1:52:27 > 1:52:36had a huge amount of racism. This was a standard. This was a football
1:52:36 > 1:52:40standard hurling abuse and hurling bananas at him. He had bullets sent
1:52:40 > 1:52:44through the post. That's the sort of thing he dealt with and he dealt
1:52:44 > 1:52:48with it with grace and honour and dignity and doing the most important
1:52:48 > 1:52:52thing that he was paid to do and that was score goals.We are showing
1:52:52 > 1:52:55pictures to our audience from the funeral. There you can see people
1:52:55 > 1:53:01gathered to pay their respects.
1:53:01 > 1:53:04gathered to pay their respects. Let me bring in Eme. How would you
1:53:04 > 1:53:09describe him?The overwhelming abiding memory of him was that he
1:53:09 > 1:53:14was such a gentleman actually. I met him in a Birmingham hotel. I spent a
1:53:14 > 1:53:21couple of hours in his company as I was researching president book and
1:53:21 > 1:53:25every ten minutes or so we would be stopped by well-wishers and people
1:53:25 > 1:53:30who wanted to speak to him and wish him well and he had time for
1:53:30 > 1:53:35everybody. He was warm. He was engaging. He was like I said he was
1:53:35 > 1:53:40a gentleman. Did he consider himself to be a
1:53:40 > 1:53:47pioneer in terms of black players?I think he was very aware of his
1:53:47 > 1:53:51status within, amongst black players and also amongst wider black
1:53:51 > 1:53:57communities across the country as well. I'm not sure when he began to
1:53:57 > 1:54:04play, that that was the case, but he certainly was aware of his status
1:54:04 > 1:54:07amongst black footballers and the wider black community as well.What
1:54:07 > 1:54:15would you say about that, Warren?I think he was doing what they had to
1:54:15 > 1:54:19do at that time in that climate to get to the top of the game. I don't
1:54:19 > 1:54:25think he would have thought himself as a pioneer at the time, as a
1:54:25 > 1:54:30trailblazer. Ron Atkinson picked the players and Ron add kind son was
1:54:30 > 1:54:33picks his best players and they happened to be part of the three
1:54:33 > 1:54:38best 11 so he had to pick them and they did what they had to do to get
1:54:38 > 1:54:44to the top of the game.What was he like as a player? We have a younger
1:54:44 > 1:54:47audience who may not recall what he was like as a player?I think he
1:54:47 > 1:54:52was, well, he was a great footballer. I think he was a great
1:54:52 > 1:54:57all-round footballer. One of the things that was true of him, he was
1:54:57 > 1:55:01a complete footballer. He was good in the air. He was quick and strong.
1:55:01 > 1:55:05If you wanted to play a high line then he would be able to cope with
1:55:05 > 1:55:10that. He could drop deep into mid-field and he was a good
1:55:10 > 1:55:14all-round footballer. If he was to play in this particular area, I
1:55:14 > 1:55:17think he would do really well and be a Premier League footballer no doubt
1:55:17 > 1:55:23about that.Warren, what would you say having played against him?
1:55:23 > 1:55:27Comparing him to the modern game, you just wonder how much he'd be
1:55:27 > 1:55:32worth and the sort of money he would be earning, £40 million, £50 million
1:55:32 > 1:55:36and that gives you an idea of how good he was on then compared to some
1:55:36 > 1:55:38of the centre forwards that he would be playing against now.
1:55:38 > 1:55:44Right. From the black footballers that you spoke to for your look how
1:55:44 > 1:55:50did they regard Cyrille Regis?The father figure was probably the most
1:55:50 > 1:55:55accurate description. They all idolised him and he was seen as
1:55:55 > 1:55:58something of a father figure. Because of the way he conducted
1:55:58 > 1:56:03himself and the way he dealt with the racist abuse that came to him
1:56:03 > 1:56:08and he did it not with dignity, but he carried himself with a great deal
1:56:08 > 1:56:12of confidence, I think, he acted as a role model to the generation of
1:56:12 > 1:56:16black footballers that came after him and they certainly idolised him.
1:56:16 > 1:56:22I think if we saw last week the moving testimony from Brian Deane
1:56:22 > 1:56:26that's an indication of the esteem in which he was held.
1:56:26 > 1:56:32He won five England caps, was it five?It was only five.Should he
1:56:32 > 1:56:37have won more?Absolutely. He was a great centre forward. I think even
1:56:37 > 1:56:42when I wrote in my piece, he inspired a generation, I would take
1:56:42 > 1:56:44that, he is inspiring generations because of the work he did off the
1:56:44 > 1:56:48pitch, he was an agent and he guided his young nephew Jason Roberts
1:56:48 > 1:56:51through his career as well.Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank
1:56:51 > 1:56:55you. Thank you.
1:56:55 > 1:57:01We will talk to Danny Shaw because the Met and the CPS have apologised
1:57:01 > 1:57:06to 22-year-old Liam Allen after a review found mistakes were made in
1:57:06 > 1:57:10his rape case, you will remember that case collapsed T Danny, fill us
1:57:10 > 1:57:16in.Well, this was PROBLEM WITH SOUND
1:57:16 > 1:57:23PROBLEM WITH SOUND Sorry about that. The technicals
1:57:23 > 1:57:25weren't, the technicals weren't great there, but we can hear from
1:57:25 > 1:57:30Liam Allen right now. I said this so many times.
1:57:30 > 1:57:34University is meant to be the best years of your life and the last two
1:57:34 > 1:57:36years have been spent worrying and not really concentrating on
1:57:36 > 1:57:41anything. It has ripped apart my normal personal life and now that it
1:57:41 > 1:57:45has come to light, it is still going on and the longer that we have to
1:57:45 > 1:57:47wait in terms of going through this conversation and things like that,
1:57:47 > 1:57:51you know, the more stress it still is because I am still away from
1:57:51 > 1:57:54university and I am away from my normal life so everything is still
1:57:54 > 1:57:58up side down, but I'm not standing trial anymore, but there is still
1:57:58 > 1:58:06emotional stress there. Liam Allen.
1:58:06 > 1:58:08On the programme tomorrow, Strictly legend Brendan Cole
1:58:08 > 1:58:10who has just revealed he's been dropped by the show.
1:58:10 > 1:58:14We will talk to him on the programme tomorrow.
1:58:14 > 1:58:23Thanks for watching today. We're back tomorrow at 9am.