16/02/2018

0:00:06 > 0:00:09Hello, it's Friday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

0:00:09 > 0:00:19welcome to the programme.

0:00:19 > 0:00:22The top story today, dozens more complaints have been made against

0:00:22 > 0:00:32the former football coach temp max one. -- Barry Bennell. It was this

0:00:32 > 0:00:35interview which prompted so many others to come forward.My career

0:00:35 > 0:00:43has been ruined, relationships have been ruined, I just... I had to get

0:00:43 > 0:00:44it out there.

0:00:44 > 0:00:46Today three of those players are back with us -

0:00:46 > 0:00:50and they're joined by another man who will tell us he was abused

0:00:50 > 0:00:52by Barry Bennell on the pitch at Man City's old ground,

0:00:52 > 0:00:54Maine Road.

0:00:54 > 0:00:57This morning in an exclusive interview - a former

0:00:57 > 0:01:01board member at Crewe, Hamilton Smith, tells us he warned

0:01:01 > 0:01:04the club about Bennell's behaviour towards young boys in the late

0:01:04 > 0:01:111980s, but Bennell was allowed to stay in his job.

0:01:11 > 0:01:16With all the banter that was going on, the special board meeting we

0:01:16 > 0:01:24had, they are still saying they did not know something was going on.

0:01:24 > 0:01:28Also this morning we can reveal new allegations have been made that

0:01:28 > 0:01:32Barry Bennell abused boys while working at a care home in Derbyshire

0:01:32 > 0:01:39is the same time he was a coach at Manchester City.A lot of the boys

0:01:39 > 0:01:42talked about him abusing other boys while at the home and getting

0:01:42 > 0:01:48involved with them, taking them to his flat, things like that.

0:01:48 > 0:01:51This morning: football's biggest crisis - stay with us for this

0:01:51 > 0:01:52special programme on football abuse.

0:01:52 > 0:01:54And do get in touch in the usual ways -

0:01:54 > 0:01:58send an email victoria@bbc.co.uk or can you message us on twitter -

0:01:58 > 0:01:59use the hastag #VictoriaLive.

0:02:12 > 0:02:19Hello.

0:02:19 > 0:02:21This morning on the Victoria Derbyshire Programme serious

0:02:21 > 0:02:23questions for two large professional football clubs.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Could more have been done to protect dozens of young players

0:02:25 > 0:02:26from horrific sexual abuse?

0:02:26 > 0:02:29Next week the former football coach Barry Bennell will be sentenced

0:02:29 > 0:02:31for abusing 12 young boys over three decades.

0:02:31 > 0:02:34Jim Reed reports.

0:02:34 > 0:02:36My name is Steve Walters.

0:02:36 > 0:02:39I was abused by Barry Bennell.

0:02:39 > 0:02:41Left damaged by a man who, for three decades, went

0:02:41 > 0:02:48almost unchallenged.

0:02:48 > 0:02:50Three footballers yesterday waiving their rights to anonymity

0:02:50 > 0:02:54to talk about the abuse they went through as young children.

0:02:54 > 0:02:58For years, hundreds of us were groomed in plain view.

0:02:58 > 0:03:02The shame, the nightmares...

0:03:02 > 0:03:06No child should suffer the way we did.

0:03:06 > 0:03:09How can it be that no one realised something was wrong?

0:03:09 > 0:03:13Barry Bennell, now 64, watched by video link

0:03:13 > 0:03:15as the verdicts were read out in court.

0:03:15 > 0:03:21Shaking his head, as he was found guilty of every charge against him.

0:03:21 > 0:03:26The jury heard him described as an abuser on an industrial scale,

0:03:26 > 0:03:28a man who used threats and promises to groom both children

0:03:28 > 0:03:30and their families.

0:03:30 > 0:03:34He abused them time and time again.

0:03:34 > 0:03:36He abused them at his home, in his car, at Butlins holiday

0:03:36 > 0:03:45camp and while on tour.

0:03:45 > 0:03:48Next week he will be sentenced for offences against 12 players.

0:03:48 > 0:03:50It is his fourth prison term after a first conviction in 1994

0:03:50 > 0:03:52in the United States.

0:03:52 > 0:03:54Good morning, we are talking to Chris Unsworth...

0:03:54 > 0:03:57The verdict comes more than a year after two of those players appeared

0:03:57 > 0:04:07live on this programme.

0:04:07 > 0:04:09They spoke out alongside former Crewe footballer Andy Woodward,

0:04:09 > 0:04:10another of Bennell's victims.

0:04:10 > 0:04:12Careers have been ruined, relationships have been ruined.

0:04:12 > 0:04:14It is understood the investigation into Bennell's

0:04:14 > 0:04:16crimes may not be over.

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Police have taken calls from another 86 men who said

0:04:19 > 0:04:22there were abused by the coach, a coach who, for three decades,

0:04:22 > 0:04:27went almost unchallenged by the clubs who worked for.

0:04:27 > 0:04:32went almost unchallenged by the clubs he worked for.

0:04:32 > 0:04:38Big questions, tough questions for the clubs involved. We spoke to

0:04:38 > 0:04:44people who used to work in very senior positions at both clubs,

0:04:44 > 0:04:50concerns were being raised 40-50 years ago. We will hear from the

0:04:50 > 0:04:55former managing director of crew Alexandrova FC who said concerns

0:04:55 > 0:05:00were raised at board level, the club has was denied this and we've

0:05:00 > 0:05:04uncovered new allegations while Barry Bennell was a coach at

0:05:04 > 0:05:08Manchester City he was also allegedly abusing boys at a care

0:05:08 > 0:05:15home.Thank you. In a moment an exclusive interview with these men

0:05:15 > 0:05:18who were all abused by Barry Bennell. We will talk to Andy

0:05:18 > 0:05:30Woodward, Gary Cliff, Steve Walters in just a moment. But first...

0:05:30 > 0:05:32Annita is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

0:05:32 > 0:05:36of the rest of the days news.

0:05:36 > 0:05:43The head of Oxfam International says the charity will look into

0:05:44 > 0:05:44Anyone his

0:05:44 > 0:05:50allegations of sexual abuse.

0:05:50 > 0:05:54whiny beanie met said any complaint would be examined and wrongdoers

0:05:54 > 0:06:01would be held to account.

0:06:01 > 0:06:03Police in Florida say the teenager accused of killing 17 people

0:06:03 > 0:06:06at a high school on Wednesday has confessed to the shooting.

0:06:06 > 0:06:0819-year-old Nikolas Cruz has appeared in court charged with 17

0:06:08 > 0:06:09counts of premeditated murder.

0:06:09 > 0:06:12It's emerged the FBI had been alerted to potential warning signs

0:06:12 > 0:06:17of the former student's intentions in the past.

0:06:17 > 0:06:21New figures show a dramatic reduction in the number of young

0:06:21 > 0:06:22people buying their own homes across the UK,

0:06:22 > 0:06:23over the last 20 years.

0:06:23 > 0:06:25The Institute for Fiscal Studies found only a quarter

0:06:25 > 0:06:27of those aged 25 to 34, on average incomes,

0:06:27 > 0:06:33were able to buy a property, compared to 2 out of 3 in 1998.

0:06:33 > 0:06:35A BBC investigation has revealed a significant difference

0:06:35 > 0:06:37between the highest earning male and female consultants working

0:06:37 > 0:06:42for the NHS in England.

0:06:42 > 0:06:45Figures show that one in five of the top 100 earners are women,

0:06:45 > 0:06:47while on average full time men earned £14,000 a year more

0:06:47 > 0:06:49than their female counterparts when including

0:06:49 > 0:06:54bonuses and overtime.

0:06:54 > 0:06:58Of the top 100 earning consultants five are women despite more than a

0:06:58 > 0:07:02third of the workforce being female. The Department of Health says it is

0:07:02 > 0:07:06committed to ensuring doctors are awarded early and equally regardless

0:07:06 > 0:07:11of gender. -- fairly and equally.

0:07:11 > 0:07:13The Hollywood actress Jennifer Aniston has announced

0:07:13 > 0:07:15she is to separate from her husband Justin Theroux after

0:07:16 > 0:07:17two years of marriage.

0:07:17 > 0:07:19The pair, who were married in a secret ceremony

0:07:19 > 0:07:21in Los Angeles in 2015, reportedly met on the set

0:07:21 > 0:07:22of comedy film Wanderlust.

0:07:22 > 0:07:26They gave no reason for the split but said it was a mutual decision

0:07:26 > 0:07:28which had been "lovingly made" at the end of last year.

0:07:28 > 0:07:34That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

0:07:34 > 0:07:41Messages already for you town-mac -- from you for these men who gave

0:07:41 > 0:07:46evidence against Barry Bennell, Hillary said all praise to these men

0:07:46 > 0:07:50for coming forward, such courage, I hope this verdict gives them some

0:07:50 > 0:07:56peace in their lives. Leanne says it's horrific for the victims and

0:07:56 > 0:07:59unimaginable for their parents, heartbreakingly sad.Thank you for

0:07:59 > 0:08:00those.

0:08:00 > 0:08:03Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

0:08:03 > 0:08:06use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

0:08:06 > 0:08:07at the standard network rate.

0:08:07 > 0:08:10Let's get some sport...Hugh is here.

0:08:10 > 0:08:14Good morning. Good morning. Britain has its first medal of the Winter

0:08:14 > 0:08:18Olympics, a bronze medal, in dramatic fashion as to Dominic

0:08:18 > 0:08:25Parsons and the skeleton. Fourth overnight, moved into third after a

0:08:25 > 0:08:28strong run, a solid final outing secured bronze but he faltered

0:08:28 > 0:08:32slightly, it was enough to make it look like he was going to finish

0:08:32 > 0:08:37outside the medals. Those above him in the standings delighted but

0:08:37 > 0:08:42Parsons got his chance had gone, then came the twist. The five-time

0:08:42 > 0:08:48world champion from Latvia made a mistake in his final run, cute

0:08:48 > 0:08:51surprise, it left Parsons picking up a bronze and claiming the first

0:08:51 > 0:09:00medal in Pyeongchang.I thought I'd lost it, after that, before

0:09:00 > 0:09:09throwing, I looked up at the board and I made a couple too many

0:09:09 > 0:09:15mistakes but he made more, the last person I thought would.After

0:09:15 > 0:09:18finishing seventh in his first cross-country skiing event Andrew

0:09:18 > 0:09:24Musgrave suffered more in the 15 kilometres freestyle coming in 28th.

0:09:24 > 0:09:30This Swiss winner claimed his fourth Olympic title. Elsewhere away from

0:09:30 > 0:09:33Pyeongchang Alex McLeish has agreed to become Scotland manager of the

0:09:33 > 0:09:38second time until 2020, 11 years since he left the job first time.

0:09:38 > 0:09:43The former Rangers and Birmingham boss replaces Boardman Strachan.

0:09:43 > 0:09:50Michael O'Neill the Northern Ireland manager was unable to be secured for

0:09:50 > 0:09:55the job. Liam Plunkett has aggravated a terror he suffered in

0:09:55 > 0:09:59the one-day series against Australia, he returned for the tri-

0:09:59 > 0:10:03series against New Zealand. England said Abel announce a replacement in

0:10:03 > 0:10:08the coming days, the one-day series against New Zealand starting a week

0:10:08 > 0:10:12on Sunday. That's your sport. Thank you.

0:10:12 > 0:10:1615 months ago this programme exclusively

0:10:16 > 0:10:19spoke to these four men - who with quiet emotion told

0:10:19 > 0:10:24you about the horrific sexual abuse they'd experienced three and a half

0:10:24 > 0:10:27decades earlier, as young footballers - abuse perpetrated

0:10:27 > 0:10:30by their coach Barry Bennell who had links with Manchester City

0:10:30 > 0:10:34junior teams and worked at Crewe Alexandra Football club.

0:10:34 > 0:10:37They also told you they believed dozens of other boys had also

0:10:37 > 0:10:39been abused by Bennell.

0:10:39 > 0:10:42They were right.

0:10:42 > 0:10:45As a result of that interview - many more came forward to say

0:10:45 > 0:10:48they too had been abused by the same coach, and in fact

0:10:48 > 0:10:52others in football.

0:10:52 > 0:10:56Now Bennell - described in court as a "predatory paedophile" has been

0:10:56 > 0:11:01convicted of 43 sexual offences on boys he was meant to mentor.

0:11:01 > 0:11:04It's the fourth time the paedophile coach has been convicted of crimes

0:11:04 > 0:11:12ranging from indecent assault to rape.

0:11:12 > 0:11:16He will be sentenced on Monday and is facing the rest of his life we

0:11:16 > 0:11:21find bars. We can speak exclusively to three men who gave evidence in

0:11:21 > 0:11:25the most recent trial and the former player who lifted the lid on

0:11:25 > 0:11:31football abuse. Andy Woodward, whose initial interview on this programme

0:11:31 > 0:11:36and the Guardian prompted others to speak out including some of these

0:11:36 > 0:11:40here today. Chris Unsworth who told us 15 months ago he had been raped

0:11:40 > 0:11:46up to 100 times by Barry Bennell up to the age of nine. Steve Walters

0:11:46 > 0:11:51who broke three decades of public silence to tell us about the abuse

0:11:51 > 0:11:55he experienced from the age of 12 when he stayed at the home of Barry

0:11:55 > 0:12:01Bennell. And also Gary Cliff, who was abused by Barry Bennell than he

0:12:01 > 0:12:05was a junior team player. They have all waived their right to anonymity

0:12:05 > 0:12:09to talk to you this morning and as you would expect, some of what we

0:12:09 > 0:12:12talk about will be graphic and Frank and you may not want children to

0:12:12 > 0:12:21listen. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for coming

0:12:21 > 0:12:26back, already I have dozens and dozens and dozens of messages from

0:12:26 > 0:12:34viewers saying you are very brave men. I want to ask you how you are

0:12:34 > 0:12:40feeling after the final verdict yesterday. Gary.Victoria, I can't

0:12:40 > 0:12:45believe I am sat here with you. I have waited two and a half years

0:12:45 > 0:12:52basically to sit here with you, to speak about this. I came forward in

0:12:52 > 0:12:56September 2015, and I suppose she could say I have waited over 30

0:12:56 > 0:13:04years, really. Myself, I got seven counts guilty, six on Tuesday, and I

0:13:04 > 0:13:09had to wait a day and yesterday, I got the final count of guilty to

0:13:09 > 0:13:15make seven but what I can say, Victoria, if people think this is

0:13:15 > 0:13:20horrific, this isn't even scratching the surface. You know and I know the

0:13:20 > 0:13:29real number is tenfold in terms of offences and lads affected by this.

0:13:29 > 0:13:38So I am delighted at the result but... We've got the sentence on

0:13:38 > 0:13:46Monday, but another hurdle to go to. I will be attending the personal

0:13:46 > 0:13:52statement...But as far as you are concerned, as prolific as we know

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this paedophile was, you said this is still the tip of the iceberg?

0:13:56 > 0:14:00Yes, in terms of lives that have come forward, I know there's many

0:14:00 > 0:14:06more lads out there and I am hoping they can find strength, they don't

0:14:06 > 0:14:11have to go to the police, just confide in family, friends, because

0:14:11 > 0:14:18they cannot carry that burden. When I saw the lads in November 20 16th,

0:14:18 > 0:14:27absolutely phenomenal, I was working, I was searching someone's

0:14:27 > 0:14:31house and the messages were coming through and it was so impacted and

0:14:31 > 0:14:36we want to reach out to those people, that crap is not there is to

0:14:36 > 0:14:47carry. It really isn't. It is his. To carry.We can help them. OK.

0:14:47 > 0:14:57Steve, do you feel justice has been done?Yes. We've had six weeks of

0:14:57 > 0:15:05torment, the ordeal of going through the cord procedure was awful. -- the

0:15:05 > 0:15:11cord procedure. Going to the stand, telling complete strangers, your

0:15:11 > 0:15:19family, your friends, about your abuse, more importantly the jury.

0:15:19 > 0:15:25Thankfully they believe doesn't came to the right conclusion. I feel now

0:15:25 > 0:15:29I've got a bit of justice and that man no longer has the power over me,

0:15:29 > 0:15:33I've got the power over him, to me he is a pathetic little man, dirty

0:15:33 > 0:15:38little man, ruining peoples lives but he's not going to ruin my life

0:15:38 > 0:15:44any more. So I want to move onwards and upwards.

0:15:44 > 0:15:46Chris you have known for decades what Barry

0:15:46 > 0:15:49Chris you have known for decades what Barry Bennell was, a devious

0:15:49 > 0:15:56paedophile, abusing young boys on an industrial scale. What does it feel

0:15:56 > 0:16:05like to now know that the rest of the country will appreciate how

0:16:05 > 0:16:12dangerous he was?Like Gary said, we knew a year ago how big this was

0:16:12 > 0:16:19going to be. Now it is coming to light. Like he said, it is just the

0:16:19 > 0:16:22tip of the iceberg. We know there are more and more lads out there.

0:16:22 > 0:16:26Hopefully, us being here today, it may give them the strength to come

0:16:26 > 0:16:35forward. There is light at the end of the tunnel.When you are hearing

0:16:35 > 0:16:39those verdicts come in for each offence, guilty, guilty, that must

0:16:39 > 0:16:44have been so emotional for all of you?It was a roller-coaster that

0:16:44 > 0:16:52day. Obviously they didn't all come in. The first one came in, I had

0:16:52 > 0:16:56five charges read out, all guilty. The boy next to me, he didn't. It

0:16:56 > 0:17:03was just a roller-coaster. They went on and on. Just very hard to explain

0:17:03 > 0:17:09that day. The next day, the jury didn't sit, so it's dragged a little

0:17:09 > 0:17:16bit. But we got there in the end.I think you were holding hands towards

0:17:16 > 0:17:25the end yesterday? In court?We were sat on the back row, all in it

0:17:25 > 0:17:30together. None of us could celebrate, really, told a lot of us

0:17:30 > 0:17:34had guilty verdicts. It felt like you were cheating, my three charges

0:17:34 > 0:17:37were guilty, but there were other guys that are still waiting on

0:17:37 > 0:17:43verdicts. We were in this altogether.Bennell appeared via

0:17:43 > 0:17:50video link. He was not in the courtroom. What did you think when

0:17:50 > 0:17:57you saw him on the screen?For myself, Victoria... He was nothing

0:17:57 > 0:18:04to me. It was not how I remembered him as a kid. He should have been in

0:18:04 > 0:18:11the court, as far as I am concerned. That is another story. I was focused

0:18:11 > 0:18:18on giving my evidence. I wanted to get my stuff out there.You will be

0:18:18 > 0:18:23in the same courtroom on Monday when sentencing happens, to hear what

0:18:23 > 0:18:28punishment he will get for what he did to you. How do you feel about

0:18:28 > 0:18:36seeing him face-to-face?I have always said I want to have my day

0:18:36 > 0:18:40with him, look him in the eye, face-to-face. We didn't get that

0:18:40 > 0:18:44chance when the trial was going on. Monday, I will be there and I will

0:18:44 > 0:18:50look him in the eye.It's important for you he is there?It is important

0:18:50 > 0:18:58for me personally, just to get that closure, hopefully to hear the judge

0:18:58 > 0:19:04say... Well, hopefully life in prison.Steve, is it important for

0:19:04 > 0:19:10you that Barry Bennell is in court on Monday?Like Chris just

0:19:10 > 0:19:19mentioned, that will be the final chapter of it, and give us the

0:19:19 > 0:19:24chance to move on. This man, up to the last, has shown no remorse. I

0:19:24 > 0:19:30want the opportunity to look him in the eye and say I am over you now.

0:19:30 > 0:19:37He has no power over me. You know, I am going on, I am surviving, moving

0:19:37 > 0:19:42on. He has not beaten us, he has not beaten me, he has not beaten us. We

0:19:42 > 0:19:48are still here and we are going to start a new chapter in our lives.He

0:19:48 > 0:19:53has ruined our childhood, ruined our dreams. But he will not ruin our

0:19:53 > 0:19:58lives.Andy, you are the man that started all of this. You spent a lot

0:19:58 > 0:20:02of time in court, supporting these guys. What was this experience like

0:20:02 > 0:20:10for you?Yes, it was just... I'm really proud of the guys, because it

0:20:10 > 0:20:15is a gruelling process, and a long process to go through. Unbeknownst

0:20:15 > 0:20:22to me, when I broke the story, I didn't realise that Gary was...

0:20:22 > 0:20:27Obviously he had previously reported it. It brought back a lot of

0:20:27 > 0:20:31memories with Gary. But I am proud of Gary, being able to stick this

0:20:31 > 0:20:36through for two and a half years, which is a long time. Also for me,

0:20:36 > 0:20:42there were elements were, back in 1997, when I did give my statement,

0:20:42 > 0:20:46it was quite rushed. I had only just broke it to my parents. The

0:20:46 > 0:20:52statement was 10% or 20% of what happened to me. I had a decision to

0:20:52 > 0:20:56make last year, whether I wanted to do a further statement, and I chose

0:20:56 > 0:21:00not to do that because of the magnitude of everything, and what I

0:21:00 > 0:21:04was doing in terms of my mental well-being. For me, it was a relief

0:21:04 > 0:21:10that the guys got the guilty verdict, and they were able to move

0:21:10 > 0:21:15forward with their lives. You know, it has such an impact on people's

0:21:15 > 0:21:20lives.I want to ask you, Gary, and I know you are comfortable talking

0:21:20 > 0:21:24to the audience about this, but when the abuse first began. It was pretty

0:21:24 > 0:21:28much as soon as he got to know Barry Bennell, in a Manchester City junior

0:21:28 > 0:21:36team?Yes, I got scouted by a Manchester City Scout, not Barry.

0:21:36 > 0:21:42But very quickly he became a coach, and he came up with a story that he

0:21:42 > 0:21:47wanted each member of the new team to go to his house, two by two, to

0:21:47 > 0:21:51get to know them, meet and greet. So there was no grooming process with

0:21:51 > 0:21:57me. The first Friday night I stayed there, at his home, the abuse

0:21:57 > 0:22:00started. Two boys in the bed, he was in the middle, straightaway it was

0:22:00 > 0:22:11sexual touching.How old were you? 11. And it just goes on. I have said

0:22:11 > 0:22:15it in the interviews, you let it happen the first time, you are a

0:22:15 > 0:22:19child, you feel complicit in it, it goes on, you go back the following

0:22:19 > 0:22:22week and it goes on. You have not got the words, you've not got the

0:22:22 > 0:22:26vocabulary to express. You know it is wrong, but there is nobody to

0:22:26 > 0:22:32speak to. Lads didn't speak to each other, no parents said anything, no

0:22:32 > 0:22:37officials were saying anything.What did you think was going on? You must

0:22:37 > 0:22:42have been feeling desperate?You know it is wrong, but you think, is

0:22:42 > 0:22:48a defection? Is it... Is this what you have got to go through? -- is it

0:22:48 > 0:22:55a affection.

0:22:58 > 0:23:02Best football I have ever seen, even to this day, it was a perfect storm,

0:23:02 > 0:23:06almost a perfect crime, because he was that good. He was at a

0:23:06 > 0:23:10professional club, Manchester City. The football was brilliant. We would

0:23:10 > 0:23:15go all over the country, beating everybody. But the other side of it

0:23:15 > 0:23:19has totally ruined my life.We are showing images of you as a young

0:23:19 > 0:23:26boy. In terms of your own story, you were from Plymouth, coming up to

0:23:26 > 0:23:33crew, were Barry Bennell was working. You were away from home,

0:23:33 > 0:23:35away from your parents, and you lived at his home. Your parents

0:23:35 > 0:23:43trusted him, you trusted him. In terms of the grooming process, that

0:23:43 > 0:23:51home had free kit, it had a jukebox, it had exotic animals.He had a pool

0:23:51 > 0:23:59table, jukebox, a puma or a panther, he even had a monkey. He had a room

0:23:59 > 0:24:04full of sports gear, you could just go in and help yourself. I came from

0:24:04 > 0:24:08Plymouth, no disrespect to Plymouth back then, but designer gear was

0:24:08 > 0:24:13never something that reached down there, it was cut off from society.

0:24:13 > 0:24:19Walking around in decent sports gear, it was part of his grooming

0:24:19 > 0:24:29process.You had England prospects. You were such a promising player.

0:24:29 > 0:24:42What impact did what he did have on you?I just became totally reserved.

0:24:42 > 0:24:45All of a sudden, I stopped staying at his house, I was not allowed to

0:24:45 > 0:24:51stay there. So, I went to an FA School of excellence and became

0:24:51 > 0:24:56totally reserved. I was training nonstop, just to try to forget about

0:24:56 > 0:25:04it. I will bury my head in my football, try and forget about what

0:25:04 > 0:25:18happened. It just totally messes up your childhood.The first time he

0:25:18 > 0:25:24tried to abuse you, you told him to clear off. Which is when he began

0:25:24 > 0:25:28with mind games, what did he do?He started playing me in different

0:25:28 > 0:25:32positions. For the first time ever he made me a substitute. Looking

0:25:32 > 0:25:38back now, I think I even went to another club for a short spell and

0:25:38 > 0:25:46came back again, it affected me that much. Eventually he brought me down,

0:25:46 > 0:25:51the amount of lads from back then were surprised, because they thought

0:25:51 > 0:25:55I was strong. But you look at the photographs, I was just a child and

0:25:55 > 0:26:03I have no chance. I can always remember, he got me in a pressure

0:26:03 > 0:26:06point somewhere, it might have been on my neck or my back, and you're

0:26:06 > 0:26:16just paralysed with fear. He had none -- he would intimidate you, and

0:26:16 > 0:26:20you are paralysed with fear.You told the court that the only people

0:26:20 > 0:26:26you told about the abuse that Bennell subjected you to work us on

0:26:26 > 0:26:32this programme, our audience, when you spoke live that day in November

0:26:32 > 0:26:372016, to the police, and to the jury in court. Why do you think you

0:26:37 > 0:26:46haven't told anyone else?I don't know, really. I must feel ashamed.

0:26:46 > 0:26:53Or... I don't really know. Still now, I have never really disclosed

0:26:53 > 0:27:01any information to my family, still. My sister, my brother, my nephews,

0:27:01 > 0:27:07my partner. My partner read my police statement on the day that I

0:27:07 > 0:27:16appeared in court, and she wrote -- broke down. I can talk about it. It

0:27:16 > 0:27:20does help me talk about it. But I won't really bring it up. If people

0:27:20 > 0:27:28ask me, I'm not ashamed at all. You know, we were all boys.What was it

0:27:28 > 0:27:33like to carry that around with you privately, for decades?Like I have

0:27:33 > 0:27:41said many times, I just forgot about it. My life as a boy, playing

0:27:41 > 0:27:45football, we had ups and downs. But the abuse side, I just completely

0:27:45 > 0:27:52forgot about it. Like I said on this show, luckily, when I was 14 or 15,

0:27:52 > 0:27:56I never wanted to play football again and I turned to golf, and that

0:27:56 > 0:28:00was my passion. That was my get out. I am going to read some more

0:28:00 > 0:28:08messages from people watching right around the country. This tweet from

0:28:08 > 0:28:11Saffron, feeling so proud of these victims coming through and breaking

0:28:11 > 0:28:15the silence. Every victim that chooses to do so helps to make the

0:28:15 > 0:28:18world a better place. This is an e-mail from David, I have watched

0:28:18 > 0:28:24this story from the beginning, I feel sympathy for these men. Deirdre

0:28:24 > 0:28:27posted on Facebook, for these men it is such a painful part of their

0:28:27 > 0:28:30lives and they have to get through each day with the memories, but I

0:28:30 > 0:28:33believe their courage in speaking out will help others, children and

0:28:33 > 0:28:37adults, to speak out about abuse they are suffering or have suffered.

0:28:37 > 0:28:42Stay strong, you are not alone. People do care and want to stop this

0:28:42 > 0:28:45happening to others. This text message from somebody who does not

0:28:45 > 0:28:53leave their name, I am inspired by the guys that have spoken out. I was

0:28:53 > 0:28:57abused by a teacher at school and it is making me think I should speak

0:28:57 > 0:29:05out. My heart goes out to them. I mean, that is quite something.Yes.

0:29:05 > 0:29:07Because of what you are doing, others are thinking, maybe I can do

0:29:07 > 0:29:16this.It is a huge burden to carry on your shoulders. If you are

0:29:16 > 0:29:20keeping that locked away inside one person's mind, you have got to come

0:29:20 > 0:29:25forward and tell somebody. Go to the police, go to any support services,

0:29:25 > 0:29:32just do the right thing. Tell somebody.What would you say?Yes,

0:29:32 > 0:29:40you know, it is like Steve just said. I think the people that

0:29:40 > 0:29:45understand and know what it feels like to block that pain in for such

0:29:45 > 0:29:52a long time. Some people take it to the grave. I do believe, if I hadn't

0:29:52 > 0:29:58done what I did in November, lads would probably, some of them, they

0:29:58 > 0:30:03would have targeted to the grave. It is living with that burden. It ruins

0:30:03 > 0:30:08people's lives. I do believe that there is help out there. Now it is

0:30:08 > 0:30:12such a focal point, since November, that I think people are starting to

0:30:12 > 0:30:23get a voice. More and more people killed courage to get the help. Even

0:30:23 > 0:30:29if they are not going to report it to the police. The support networks,

0:30:29 > 0:30:39family members, whoever it is, just to let go of that. It is torture.

0:30:39 > 0:30:44Do you think you would have spoken out if it hadn't been for Andy,

0:30:44 > 0:30:50Chris?No, I don't think I would. I only saw Andy's face and I knew

0:30:50 > 0:30:55exactly what this story was about. I'm sure I would have taken this to

0:30:55 > 0:31:02my grave.I read the article in the Guardian newspaper and the

0:31:02 > 0:31:09experience was just the same as mine. We used to stay all the time

0:31:09 > 0:31:17together at his house.Gary, you were abused by Barry Bennell in the

0:31:17 > 0:31:23car at your home, at his home and also on the pitch at Maine Road, the

0:31:23 > 0:31:32Manchester City old ground.This has been said in cord, I was asked

0:31:32 > 0:31:34whether prosecutor, he went through the locations, yes, on the pitch at

0:31:34 > 0:31:42Maine Road, probably 12, 13 years, pre-season, summertime, to walk out

0:31:42 > 0:31:49of that tunnel as any footballer knows, onto the massive expanse of

0:31:49 > 0:31:55the green pitch is amazing, no one there, I can remember apart from the

0:31:55 > 0:32:02Granz man, he had the run of the place, me and one other boy, spied

0:32:02 > 0:32:06an opportunity just behind the goal, I think it was the North stand, as

0:32:06 > 0:32:11he did in them days, he carried a bit of coconut oil around with him

0:32:11 > 0:32:17as some of the boys would know, we had track a bottom is on and it was

0:32:17 > 0:32:21a sexual assault on the pitch, two or three times during pre-season.

0:32:21 > 0:32:31Yes.What do you think of that when you look back now?I am constantly

0:32:31 > 0:32:38kind of sort of, the football side of it was brilliant, you go in

0:32:38 > 0:32:44there, due or on the pitch and you want to be a footballer and that

0:32:44 > 0:32:47happens, the great skua part, you are constantly in limbo which way to

0:32:47 > 0:32:58go with it. But loads of regrets. Why do you say that? You carry the

0:32:58 > 0:33:06Guild.That thing of should you have said something. Because boys after

0:33:06 > 0:33:16me, you carry that guilt, lads younger than me that suffered, then

0:33:16 > 0:33:25you turn it around, lads before me, you carry massive irrational

0:33:25 > 0:33:29thoughts, I've been diagnosed with PTSD, I know it's stupid that you

0:33:29 > 0:33:38can't turn them off.Andy, 40 you say to Gary when he says he feels

0:33:38 > 0:33:43guilt?When we first met it was really emotional. Because I used to

0:33:43 > 0:33:50look up to Gary and he used to cook the food for us as younger boys. But

0:33:50 > 0:33:56it's like I said to him, I also have the same guilt and I've had that for

0:33:56 > 0:34:02many, many years with younger ones than I was and living with that, its

0:34:02 > 0:34:07tortuous, the PTSD that I have, it runs through your mind about, I

0:34:07 > 0:34:13could have done something, why didn't I? Why didn't I? But we all

0:34:13 > 0:34:19know that hidden secret that we had, I said to Gary, it's the same for

0:34:19 > 0:34:25me, even the older ones, it's the same burden and guilt that you live

0:34:25 > 0:34:30with but I really don't think that people fully understand the

0:34:30 > 0:34:42magnitude and the power that man had over all of us. Honestly, honestly,

0:34:42 > 0:34:46it was just horrendous the power he had and it just shows the silence we

0:34:46 > 0:34:51all had for many, many years, but I don't think any of us should feel

0:34:51 > 0:35:01guilty. Because what he did, he was a master at it, he was a master.

0:35:01 > 0:35:05Thank you for speaking so candidly, I know you are staying here, we've

0:35:05 > 0:35:09got much more to talk about and there are so many messages which of

0:35:09 > 0:35:13course I want to read to you. Thank you for the moment.

0:35:13 > 0:35:17Let's talk in a little more detail about the clubs that Barry Bennell

0:35:17 > 0:35:18worked for and that these men played for.

0:35:18 > 0:35:21Our reporter Jim Reed has been looking at those links.

0:35:21 > 0:35:22Jim.

0:35:22 > 0:35:25As you've heard Barry Bennell worked for two clubs over three decades -

0:35:25 > 0:35:26Manchester City and Crewe Alexandra.

0:35:26 > 0:35:30We've been asking what officials there knew about his behaviour.

0:35:30 > 0:35:32And whether more could and should have been done to protect young

0:35:32 > 0:35:34players in his care.

0:35:38 > 0:35:41To boys and parents he was the star maker.

0:35:41 > 0:35:43A talented coach who could make or break dreams

0:35:43 > 0:35:45of turning professional.

0:35:45 > 0:35:48Barry Bennell had strong links to two teams...

0:35:48 > 0:35:52Manchester City and Crewe Alexandra.

0:35:52 > 0:35:56He was this Pied Piper character.

0:35:56 > 0:36:01What young boy who aspired to be a professional footballer wouldn't

0:36:01 > 0:36:04look up to that character, and respond to what they said

0:36:04 > 0:36:06was necessary in order to make that grade?

0:36:06 > 0:36:14Those Man City links go back to the 1970s.

0:36:14 > 0:36:16Bennell ran local feeder teams, with the best players

0:36:16 > 0:36:18joining the City set up.

0:36:18 > 0:36:20From early on, there were rumours about his behaviour.

0:36:20 > 0:36:22Steve Fleet was in charge of the Man City youth team.

0:36:22 > 0:36:25He told us he was under pressure to hire Bennell,

0:36:25 > 0:36:27and give him an official role at the club.

0:36:27 > 0:36:30I put my foot down.

0:36:30 > 0:36:32I wasn't working with a person like that.

0:36:32 > 0:36:35I'd heard he was doing things with kids that weren't normal.

0:36:35 > 0:36:38That time, Fleet said he won the argument.

0:36:38 > 0:36:41It was after he left, in 1980, that it appears Bennell

0:36:41 > 0:36:42became more involved.

0:36:42 > 0:36:46Yes, he was definitely part of the Manchester City set up.

0:36:46 > 0:36:51Whether or not they paid his wages, I don't honestly know.

0:36:51 > 0:36:54Manchester City is now conducting its own review into this case.

0:36:54 > 0:36:59Bennell's victims are convinced more could have been done.

0:36:59 > 0:37:02Even though there were very clear warnings given,

0:37:02 > 0:37:05those warnings seem to be just flatly ignored.

0:37:05 > 0:37:08It's not clear why Bennell left City, but in 1984 he ended up

0:37:08 > 0:37:12at another club in the north-west.

0:37:14 > 0:37:18Crewe Alexandra was struggling in the old Fourth Division.

0:37:18 > 0:37:21The club had just appointed a young manager, Dario Gradi, who knew

0:37:21 > 0:37:24Bennell from his time at Chelsea.

0:37:24 > 0:37:26Bennell was on the club payroll, responsible for youth

0:37:26 > 0:37:29development and scouting.

0:37:29 > 0:37:32There's more to it than just coming here one hour a week.

0:37:32 > 0:37:34They need to - well, we give them homework.

0:37:34 > 0:37:38He was so good at bringing players through, that

0:37:38 > 0:37:40when they were sold on, Gradi asked for Bennell to receive

0:37:40 > 0:37:42a share of the money, according to the club's

0:37:42 > 0:37:44then managing director.

0:37:44 > 0:37:49Again, though, there were rumours about Barry Bennell's dark side.

0:37:49 > 0:37:52The mother of a young Crewe player said she sent an anonymous letter

0:37:52 > 0:37:56to complain about boys sharing hotel beds with Bennell.

0:37:56 > 0:37:59Someone must have known it was going on, it can't just have

0:37:59 > 0:38:02been me that told somebody there was something going on.

0:38:02 > 0:38:05But there was no allegation of abuse, and we don't know if that

0:38:05 > 0:38:09letter was ever received by Crewe.

0:38:09 > 0:38:11The strongest warning, though, is said to have come

0:38:11 > 0:38:14from within the club itself.

0:38:14 > 0:38:18Former managing director Hamilton Smith said he told

0:38:18 > 0:38:20the club's then chairman, and the board, about Bennell's

0:38:20 > 0:38:25contacts with young boys.

0:38:25 > 0:38:28Everybody involved could have done and should have done a lot more.

0:38:28 > 0:38:34Dario Gradi has always denied any wrongdoing,

0:38:34 > 0:38:38and says the first he or anyone else at Crewe knew of any crimes was

0:38:38 > 0:38:39after Barry Bennell left the club.

0:38:39 > 0:38:41Crewe Alexandra say if they had any suspicion Bennell

0:38:41 > 0:38:43was committing acts of abuse, they would have called

0:38:43 > 0:38:53the police immediately.

0:38:55 > 0:39:01In addition, we know another 86 people have contact at police with

0:39:01 > 0:39:06complaints against Barry Bennell, the Football Association has opened

0:39:06 > 0:39:11its own independent inquiry into historic abuse in football, that is

0:39:11 > 0:39:14due to report back later this year and we think one of the main focus

0:39:14 > 0:39:18is will be if clubs could have done more, should have known more about

0:39:18 > 0:39:21what was going on and we understand they have taken evidence from many

0:39:21 > 0:39:27of the people you heard from in that film. Let me ask you, I was taught

0:39:27 > 0:39:31with you Steve, Hamilton Smith, the then manager spoke to the chairman

0:39:31 > 0:39:36about rumours surrounding Barry Bennell, there was that special

0:39:36 > 0:39:42board meeting Jim told us about cold to discuss Barry Bennell

0:39:42 > 0:39:51specifically. How do you react to that?So upsetting. I mentioned to

0:39:51 > 0:40:02you before, I always thought Dario saved me from Barry Bennell.

0:40:02 > 0:40:05Obviously the information that has kind of, forward, I don't think for

0:40:05 > 0:40:10one second Dario would ever have done anything himself, I've always

0:40:10 > 0:40:16looked up to him but somebody about football club from management level

0:40:16 > 0:40:25or board level must have known, you know, the rumours, the suspicions.

0:40:25 > 0:40:31They did know because that's what Hamilton Smith...Hamilton is a

0:40:31 > 0:40:35lovely fella, I've spoke to him an a few times and he's very passionate

0:40:35 > 0:40:40about this, why would somebody like that come forward without any

0:40:40 > 0:40:47substance? The club need to take a good look at themselves and address

0:40:47 > 0:40:55this.The club released a statement yesterday saying they would like to

0:40:55 > 0:40:58express their deepest sympathies to the victims of Barry Bennell, they

0:40:58 > 0:41:01go on the club would like to reiterate it was not aware of any

0:41:01 > 0:41:07sexual abuse nor did it received any complaints about sexual abuse by him

0:41:07 > 0:41:11either before or during his employment with the club. Further

0:41:11 > 0:41:13the police have recently undertaken a third investigation to determine

0:41:13 > 0:41:17what knowledge drew Alexandrova may have had at the offending while he

0:41:17 > 0:41:21was employed as a coach and as a result the police found no evidence

0:41:21 > 0:41:26to corroborate the club was aware of Barry Bennell's offending, they want

0:41:26 > 0:41:31to make it absolutely clear had they had any suspicion or belief he was

0:41:31 > 0:41:34committing acts of abuse either before, during or after he left the

0:41:34 > 0:41:38club's employment, the club would have informed police immediately.

0:41:38 > 0:41:49You will know Dario miaow three has always said he did not know what

0:41:49 > 0:41:56Harry Bedell was doing. The first team he was 1994. What do you think?

0:41:56 > 0:42:05I

0:42:07 > 0:42:12think the -- now we are moving forward, discussions need to be had.

0:42:12 > 0:42:21Personally, I was in an office and there was argument is between Mr

0:42:21 > 0:42:24Gradi and Barry Bennell Abbott who was going to stay at his house over

0:42:24 > 0:42:27the weekend and the argument was about me. And I could clearly hear

0:42:27 > 0:42:36outside the argument about whether I was staying at Mr Gradi house or

0:42:36 > 0:42:42Barry Bennell's house.But does not mean Gradi knew anything.

0:42:42 > 0:42:47Absolutely. But in terms of the club and what was said around other

0:42:47 > 0:42:52football clubs, it was like on the programme last night, it was

0:42:52 > 0:43:00discussed about Barry's bomb boys... That was the insult around the

0:43:00 > 0:43:11dressing room. -- bum.

0:43:11 > 0:43:14Former MD of Crewe Hamilton Smith who called a special board meeting

0:43:14 > 0:43:16because of the rumours surrounding Bennell's behaviour towards boys

0:43:16 > 0:43:19watched the interview with the four ex-players on this programme back

0:43:19 > 0:43:22in November 2016, and he now wants to pay tribute to them

0:43:22 > 0:43:29but in particular Andy Woodward.

0:43:29 > 0:43:32It really was a powerful programme, and I just couldn't start to imagine

0:43:32 > 0:43:34what this poor lad had gone through.

0:43:34 > 0:43:35It was horrific.

0:43:35 > 0:43:38It was horrific.

0:43:38 > 0:43:41And I thought, here's a victim.

0:43:41 > 0:43:45I've got a victim now.

0:43:45 > 0:43:47And I said, well, I'm going to support this lad

0:43:48 > 0:43:50as much as I possibly can.

0:43:50 > 0:43:52He released me in a way.

0:43:52 > 0:43:56He was a victim.

0:43:56 > 0:44:00He was a guy I waited to hear.

0:44:00 > 0:44:06Andy Woodward not only helped clear my conscience,

0:44:06 > 0:44:11he helped all these other people, all these other players.

0:44:11 > 0:44:15I don't think Andy Woodward realises what he actually did and how

0:44:15 > 0:44:20many people he helped.

0:44:20 > 0:44:23I don't think he - that's, I don't think he's

0:44:23 > 0:44:24got the scale on that.

0:44:24 > 0:44:28That's what I think about it.

0:44:28 > 0:44:32And these other players that came out and appeared on television

0:44:32 > 0:44:34and press and so on, it's such a brave

0:44:34 > 0:44:38thing to do, you know.

0:44:38 > 0:44:42Really, these people now, they were - when I go back and say

0:44:42 > 0:44:46I had a choice to make, sit back and don't do anything,

0:44:46 > 0:44:48or come out and help, they didn't have a choice.

0:44:48 > 0:44:50They were abused.

0:44:50 > 0:44:58They didn't have a choice.

0:44:58 > 0:45:05Andy, how do you react to that? Well, that such a powerful thing

0:45:05 > 0:45:10what Hamilton has said about me, I'm quite touched to say the least. I am

0:45:10 > 0:45:17really proud of what I did. And it was the most difficult situation the

0:45:17 > 0:45:25most difficult decision to make. In my entire life. And the last year or

0:45:25 > 0:45:28so has been really tough, it's been hard but I'm so pleased that I did

0:45:28 > 0:45:35do this because now with, you know, initially Steve and Chris being here

0:45:35 > 0:45:43and Gary Wilson the background, this has highlighted this now and

0:45:43 > 0:45:48hopefully it will save so many people's lives because we can't lose

0:45:48 > 0:45:52anyone else, you know, what's more important is that football in

0:45:52 > 0:45:55general now, they are standing up and they are accountable for what

0:45:55 > 0:46:00happened in the past but importantly we can move things forward and I am

0:46:00 > 0:46:05so proud of what Hamilton said about me and that is such a nice thing for

0:46:05 > 0:46:14him to say.A text message from Mrs Smith, these four fantastic men

0:46:14 > 0:46:22under the other poor victims of Bennell are so brave and they fully

0:46:22 > 0:46:28deserved financial compensation from the FA. This text, this had me in

0:46:28 > 0:46:31tears, when you hear others express the abuse they suffered, seen grown

0:46:31 > 0:46:37men cry makes me very sad and angry. Again, such bravery. Michelle, all

0:46:37 > 0:46:42power, solidarity and love going out to the rape survivors of Bennell's

0:46:42 > 0:46:46abuse, sad for those that did not live to see justice prevail.

0:46:46 > 0:46:52Another, mass respect to all of these men, well done. The map. You

0:46:52 > 0:46:57give hope to men everywhere to report abuse. Richard says,

0:46:57 > 0:47:00listening to past footballers abused by Barry Bennell is heartbreaking

0:47:00 > 0:47:05and astonishing. This evil, twisted sexual abuse was free to abuse

0:47:05 > 0:47:10hundreds of children for decades. So brave, guys. I want to ask you why

0:47:10 > 0:47:19you think he got away with it for so long. What would you say, Gary?Like

0:47:19 > 0:47:22we said before, he got away with it because he was so good at what he

0:47:22 > 0:47:30did, in terms of football, his ability and skills. Also, the

0:47:30 > 0:47:35parents, it has been said many times, he groomed the parents.

0:47:35 > 0:47:40Everybody around him thought he was wonderful. He came across as a

0:47:40 > 0:47:45larger-than-life character, very charismatic. He'd got the gear,

0:47:45 > 0:47:54flash cards, who was generous, he was never violent towards us. I now

0:47:54 > 0:47:59know how far he went with each boy, he tested each of them to see how

0:47:59 > 0:48:05far he could get with them. You have the whole degrees of abuse. A

0:48:05 > 0:48:11perfect storm, almost, until we grew into men and stood up to him, and

0:48:11 > 0:48:15put him where he should be now.If any of this has brought up any

0:48:15 > 0:48:18issues for you when it comes to abuse, you can find a list of

0:48:18 > 0:48:22helplines that will offer support and advice.

0:48:30 > 0:48:34As much as he abused children, he was also an expert groomer of

0:48:34 > 0:48:38adults. So many of the mothers and fathers of the boys were taken in by

0:48:38 > 0:48:48promises to make their son a top player.

0:48:48 > 0:48:52One couple were Olympic medallists who got married. Their sons were no

0:48:52 > 0:48:59less talented. They both ended up playing professional football for

0:48:59 > 0:49:01Manchester City and were trained by Bennell in the early 80s, although

0:49:01 > 0:49:09there was no suggestion they were abused by him.

0:49:09 > 0:49:14They never expected there was anything sinister about him, they

0:49:14 > 0:49:17invited him over for Christmas dinner and when he was arrested they

0:49:17 > 0:49:19wrote him a good character reference. They had little idea of

0:49:19 > 0:49:25what would follow. We spoke to them about what they remembered about the

0:49:25 > 0:49:27coach at the centre of the trial and what they made of the subsequent

0:49:27 > 0:49:28scandals.

0:49:28 > 0:49:32He was a young, attractive, charismatic coach.

0:49:32 > 0:49:37He was a bit of a Pied Piper really, the kids followed him.

0:49:37 > 0:49:40He was brilliant with a football.

0:49:40 > 0:49:44His skills were second to none - kids lapped it up.

0:49:44 > 0:49:48So my first impressions were all good.

0:49:48 > 0:49:52He's more, more of a leader of kids, and an educator of kids in sport

0:49:52 > 0:49:57than anyone I've come across.

0:49:57 > 0:50:00You never had any reason at that stage to be suspicious

0:50:00 > 0:50:01about what he was like.

0:50:01 > 0:50:02None whatsoever.

0:50:02 > 0:50:05What we're talking about is all a matter of trust.

0:50:05 > 0:50:09And we had trust in the guy.

0:50:09 > 0:50:17He appeared to have respect from many quarters inside the game.

0:50:17 > 0:50:23He was welll thought of, he appeared to have excellent contacts.

0:50:24 > 0:50:27He was just a very plausible guy.

0:50:28 > 0:50:30Were you given the impression that he was part of

0:50:30 > 0:50:34the Manchester City set up, part of the coaching staff there?

0:50:36 > 0:50:39Well, yes, because David in particular used to go

0:50:39 > 0:50:41training at Platt Lane, which is where the Manchester

0:50:41 > 0:50:46City side at the time, they all trained there.

0:50:46 > 0:50:50So, yes, he was definitely part of the Manchester City set up.

0:50:50 > 0:50:53Can you give us a sense of Bennell's relationship with the parents

0:50:53 > 0:50:55in the team as well, because he became quite close

0:50:55 > 0:50:58to many of the parents of the boys involved.

0:50:58 > 0:51:00We felt slightly sorry for him because he didn't seem

0:51:00 > 0:51:03to have a family around him, and I don't think he got paid

0:51:03 > 0:51:05very much, if at all.

0:51:05 > 0:51:11I wasn't even sure if he got paid at all.

0:51:11 > 0:51:13So, yes, we became friends with him, really, I must admit,

0:51:13 > 0:51:16and looking back, it was a disaster, wasn't it, you know.

0:51:16 > 0:51:23It's just disappointing.

0:51:29 > 0:51:33Well, on one occasion we invited him here for Christmas lunch.

0:51:33 > 0:51:37Yes, we found out that he was on his own at Christmas, and said, well,

0:51:37 > 0:51:42come along and have Christmas Day lunch with us.

0:51:42 > 0:51:45He didn't come, but we'd have been happy for him to come.

0:51:45 > 0:51:49Definitely.

0:51:49 > 0:51:58Is there anything now that you think the warning signs were there?

0:51:58 > 0:52:01Yes, in the fact that there were young players that

0:52:01 > 0:52:04were staying at his place, overnight, and then maybe would go

0:52:04 > 0:52:08to training the next day.

0:52:08 > 0:52:10Now, these days, now, I think we would be suspicious about that.

0:52:10 > 0:52:11But we weren't.

0:52:11 > 0:52:21And I don't think we were unusual.

0:52:25 > 0:52:27I don't think that anybody thought twice about it,

0:52:27 > 0:52:29because he had ingratiated himself with sports people, with the people

0:52:29 > 0:52:31like Manchester City, who he was linked with.

0:52:31 > 0:52:33People like us, as parents, and the young boys.

0:52:33 > 0:52:35He would ingratiate himself with the family in order

0:52:35 > 0:52:38to give them confidence, in order to get their trust.

0:52:38 > 0:52:45End of story.

0:52:45 > 0:52:50And he was an actor on his stage, which he did very, very well.

0:52:50 > 0:52:55He'd learned his lines very well.

0:52:55 > 0:52:58And we were, in retrospect, perhaps gullible, but as Anne said,

0:52:58 > 0:53:03you know, you just don't think about these things.

0:53:03 > 0:53:05Robbie, when did you first hear about allegations

0:53:05 > 0:53:07of abuse against Bennell?

0:53:07 > 0:53:09I had a letter from, I think it must have

0:53:09 > 0:53:12been his girlfriend, or I had a letter from somebody

0:53:12 > 0:53:14to say that he had been charged with an offence,

0:53:14 > 0:53:16and obviously there was no foundation to the charge,

0:53:16 > 0:53:19and he was innocent, and would I like to write a little

0:53:19 > 0:53:29testimonial for him?

0:53:34 > 0:53:36And, to the best of my knowledge, I did.

0:53:36 > 0:53:39But when all this started unravelling and it was clear

0:53:39 > 0:53:41he was guilty of these offences, what was your reaction?

0:53:41 > 0:53:43We were totally shocked.

0:53:43 > 0:53:46Extremely disappointed.

0:53:46 > 0:53:49Very sad for the victims and their families, because parents

0:53:49 > 0:53:53can feel terrible guilt.

0:53:53 > 0:53:56You know, if you've been conned by someone, and your children have

0:53:56 > 0:53:58suffered as a result, naturally, you know,

0:53:58 > 0:54:04you're going to feel very unhappy about that.

0:54:04 > 0:54:06I think the victims and the families are the people who've

0:54:06 > 0:54:08suffered dreadfully, but after that sport, as we've said,

0:54:08 > 0:54:15has been a major casualty.

0:54:15 > 0:54:18It now appears that people in senior positions at Manchester City

0:54:18 > 0:54:20were at least aware of rumours about the behaviour

0:54:20 > 0:54:25of Barry Bennell.

0:54:25 > 0:54:28Should they have done more to tell the parents involved?

0:54:28 > 0:54:30Should they have done more to investigate these rumours?

0:54:30 > 0:54:33If they were aware, then it's unforgivable that they didn't

0:54:33 > 0:54:35do something about it, that they didn't expose it,

0:54:35 > 0:54:38and even worse, that he went on to another club to do exactly

0:54:38 > 0:54:45the same thing.

0:54:47 > 0:54:50If the allegations were serious enough, I'm sure some action

0:54:50 > 0:54:53should have been taken.

0:54:54 > 0:54:57Well, I know some action should have been taken,

0:54:57 > 0:55:00otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it.

0:55:05 > 0:55:08Ann Packer and Robbie Brightwell speaking exclusively to our reporter

0:55:08 > 0:55:10Jim Reed about how Barry Bennell not only groomed boys but

0:55:10 > 0:55:15also their parents.

0:55:15 > 0:55:18There's no suggestion their sons - Ian and David -

0:55:18 > 0:55:19were abused.

0:55:19 > 0:55:21And Andy, Steve, Chris and Gary - your parents

0:55:21 > 0:55:27were groomed too weren't they?

0:55:27 > 0:55:33Absolutely. Totally taken in by him. As was every parent. No blame at all

0:55:33 > 0:55:39attached to my mum and dad. My mum gave evidence for me last week. She

0:55:39 > 0:55:46went to court and stood in that courtroom. She corroborated

0:55:46 > 0:55:53everything that had been said. He did.He was such a manipulator. Your

0:55:53 > 0:55:55parents invited him over for Christmas dinner, he stayed at your

0:55:55 > 0:56:04house? He stayed in your house? Because I lived near to Crewe, my

0:56:04 > 0:56:12mother ended up working in the shop for him as well. She would say, come

0:56:12 > 0:56:17and stay overnight, Barry. It was a Monday night, and he ended up

0:56:17 > 0:56:23staying in my room and he abused me in my own home.Steve, your mum was

0:56:23 > 0:56:31also taken in by him?Yes. I only found out in the last few years that

0:56:31 > 0:56:41my mum and dad, and my nan had stayed in his house. I can't

0:56:41 > 0:56:45remember that. My dad used to work at the Football Club as well, there

0:56:45 > 0:56:50was a slight overlap when they were working together. It was just all

0:56:50 > 0:56:57part of his tactics.Andy, your family, he manipulated members of

0:56:57 > 0:57:02your family?Yes, like Gary, his magnitude of power over the parents

0:57:02 > 0:57:08was huge. Myself, it was the same pattern, coming to the house, having

0:57:08 > 0:57:16Christmas dinner, having dinner most times, really, coming round. You

0:57:16 > 0:57:19know, he even had control in the house, where he would take over the

0:57:19 > 0:57:23control of the television, and put on what he wanted. That is the power

0:57:23 > 0:57:31he had. At no point did my parents have any idea. Not only that, my

0:57:31 > 0:57:34parents were really strict with me, where they would not even let me go

0:57:34 > 0:57:43100 metres out of the house. They were that protective.Your parents

0:57:43 > 0:57:48trusted him because he had groomed them so effectively. Your mum kiss

0:57:48 > 0:57:53and dads would let you stay at his house, because they were thinking he

0:57:53 > 0:57:56is the coach, he's going to make them a professional footballer. --

0:57:56 > 0:58:05your mum and dad. Your parents trusted him to take you to training

0:58:05 > 0:58:08and back?Absolutely, this guy knew what he was doing. He rapped

0:58:08 > 0:58:12everybody around his little finger. Full

0:58:19 > 0:58:24It was said in court that he was a devious paedophile?Was the power of

0:58:24 > 0:58:28the manipulation this man had. He ended up marrying my sister, and he

0:58:28 > 0:58:35groomed my family and her. I am protecting my sister, and I will

0:58:35 > 0:58:42always do that. But that man groomed my family to the point, and also my

0:58:42 > 0:58:53sister. It is just unbelievable, really.Tracey has e-mailed, I am

0:58:53 > 0:58:56watching your programme and followed it from your first programme about

0:58:56 > 0:59:01abuse in football. As a sibling of two brothers who suffered sexual

0:59:01 > 0:59:05abuse by a male teacher when they were seven and nine years old, my

0:59:05 > 0:59:10younger brother hung himself at 20, and my other brother drank himself

0:59:10 > 0:59:15to death at 33. Sexual abuse is such a difficult ordeal to recover from.

0:59:15 > 0:59:27My brothers never did. Thank you to all of the brave men who came

0:59:27 > 0:59:30forward to talk about abuse.Terms of my parents, I know that Steve

0:59:30 > 0:59:34recently lost his mum. My dad passed away in August. At least we have

0:59:34 > 0:59:40been able to give our parents that release. I know that my dad is up

0:59:40 > 0:59:44there watching, I am sure Steve's mum is as well, that we were able to

0:59:44 > 0:59:50give them that release, that they were not on their own. They were all

0:59:50 > 0:59:59manipulated, like every parent has been.Is that right, Steve?Yes, my

0:59:59 > 1:00:07mum was diagnosed with lung cancer, and passed away in June.

1:00:11 > 1:00:18I just hope she is watching now and can rest in peace now.She would be

1:00:18 > 1:00:30proud of you, mate.She was my rock, and when I lost her, it was hard.My

1:00:30 > 1:00:34dad was my best friend, they never missed a game, my mum and dad. They

1:00:34 > 1:00:38went all over the country. I know my mum is watching now and is really

1:00:38 > 1:00:43proud of me. She is finding it really hard. But I am so proud of

1:00:43 > 1:00:47them, and the way, the dignity that they have dealt with all of this. I

1:00:47 > 1:00:51am sure all parents have. You know, it is hard for them will stop there

1:00:51 > 1:00:54will be parents out there that will be suffering from this right now.

1:00:54 > 1:01:01But I will say something, no parent in this country that has been

1:01:01 > 1:01:06affected by Barry Bennell should have any guilt or any shame. He

1:01:06 > 1:01:13manipulated everybody.

1:01:13 > 1:01:21He manipulated everybody.This is unforgivable behaviour from someone

1:01:21 > 1:01:27who was given a position of trust says one viewers. You aren't weakens

1:01:27 > 1:01:31for others to come forward and stamp out the abuse of young boys. Thank

1:01:31 > 1:01:37you. An e-mail from someone who does not leave their name, I respect your

1:01:37 > 1:01:41guests for speaking out about trauma, I wish I had been strong

1:01:41 > 1:01:46enough to follow through, I confronted my abuser. He died so I

1:01:46 > 1:01:49never have made in Court, unfortunately this is a dirty memory

1:01:49 > 1:01:54that you have to live with forever, a female and it can have a very

1:01:54 > 1:01:57negative impact on your life especially than others sweep it

1:01:57 > 1:02:02under the carpet and another from Oliver on Twitter, inspiring stuff

1:02:02 > 1:02:06watching these guys talk about such horrific abuse, no one should carry

1:02:06 > 1:02:12that to the grave, serious questions need to be asked of Crewe Alexandra

1:02:12 > 1:02:18and Manchester City. We are going to talk more to Andy and Chris and Gary

1:02:18 > 1:02:22and Steve in the next hour.

1:02:22 > 1:02:25Hello, it's Friday, it's 10 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

1:02:25 > 1:02:27Our top story today, serious questions about how

1:02:27 > 1:02:28paedophile football coach Barry Bennell was allowed

1:02:28 > 1:02:30to operate for so long at two football clubs,

1:02:30 > 1:02:37abusing dozens of boys, seemingly undetected.

1:02:37 > 1:02:43This morning four men abused by Barry Bennell share their

1:02:43 > 1:02:46experiences, they believe the scale of abuse is far greater than what he

1:02:46 > 1:02:52has been conveyed that of so far.We know and we knew a year ago how big

1:02:52 > 1:02:56this was going to be and now it's coming to light and like Gary said,

1:02:56 > 1:03:01it's just the tip of the iceberg. We know there's more and more out

1:03:01 > 1:03:07there.

1:03:07 > 1:03:08Another of Bennell's victims -

1:03:08 > 1:03:11Gary Cliffe - told us earlier how the former coach abused him

1:03:11 > 1:03:14on the pitch at Manchester City's former ground, Maine Road.

1:03:14 > 1:03:18There was no one there, I can remember, apart from the groundsman,

1:03:18 > 1:03:21he had the run of the place, me and one other boy, he spied an

1:03:21 > 1:03:32opportunity we find the goal.

1:03:32 > 1:03:35Crewe Alexandra's former managing director has exclusively told this

1:03:35 > 1:03:37programme that he warned the club about Barry Bennell's behaviour

1:03:37 > 1:03:40during the late 80s - but the coach was allowed to stay

1:03:40 > 1:03:43in his job.

1:03:43 > 1:03:47With all the banter that was going on, all that was happening, the

1:03:47 > 1:03:50board meeting we had, the special board meeting, and they still say

1:03:50 > 1:03:52they didn't know what was going on.

1:03:52 > 1:03:54Also this morning - we can reveal that new allegations

1:03:54 > 1:04:03have been made that Bennell abused boys whilst working at a care home

1:04:03 > 1:04:04In Derbyshire

1:04:04 > 1:04:10In Derbyshire

1:04:10 > 1:04:12there was talk about him taking

1:04:13 > 1:04:19to his flat...What lessons can be learned from this episode and what

1:04:19 > 1:04:23can parents do to keep their children safe?We will look at the

1:04:23 > 1:04:28options organisations can take to mandatory reporting.

1:04:31 > 1:04:37Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news.

1:04:37 > 1:04:39Thank you and good morning.

1:04:39 > 1:04:41The Football Association is to review thousands of files

1:04:41 > 1:04:44to find out how much was known about the abuse carried out

1:04:44 > 1:04:47by former youth coach Barry Bennell, as part of its internal review.

1:04:47 > 1:04:50Yesterday he was found guilty of another seven counts

1:04:50 > 1:04:52of sexually abusing boys - meaning he's now been convicted

1:04:52 > 1:05:01of a total of 43 offences between 1979 and 1990.

1:05:01 > 1:05:04Speaking on this programme, one of his victims, Gary Cliffe,

1:05:04 > 1:05:08urged others to come forward.

1:05:08 > 1:05:11In terms of lives that have come forward I know there is many, many

1:05:11 > 1:05:17more lads out there and I'm hoping they can find strength, they don't

1:05:17 > 1:05:22have to go to the police, just to confide in family, friends, the

1:05:22 > 1:05:33cause they cannot carry that burden. Barry then all will be sentenced on

1:05:33 > 1:05:37Monday and one of his victims says he will be there to watch.This man

1:05:37 > 1:05:42up to his last seconds has shown no remorse, I want the opportunity to

1:05:42 > 1:05:49look him in the eye and show him, I am more than you now, you have not

1:05:49 > 1:05:53got that power over me, I am carrying on, I am surviving. I am

1:05:53 > 1:05:58moving on. He hasn't beaten us, he hasn't beaten me, he hasn't beaten

1:05:58 > 1:06:03us, we are still here. We are going to start a new chapter in our lives

1:06:03 > 1:06:08now.He's ruined our childhood basically, our dreams, but he will

1:06:08 > 1:06:11not ruin our lives.

1:06:11 > 1:06:14And in a few minutes time, we'll be speaking to the partners

1:06:14 > 1:06:20and families of those targeted by Barry Bennell.

1:06:20 > 1:06:21In other news...

1:06:21 > 1:06:24Oxfam says it will set up a commission to investigate past

1:06:24 > 1:06:26and present allegations of exploitation by its staff

1:06:26 > 1:06:27in a bid to rebuild trust.

1:06:27 > 1:06:30Anyone who's been abused by the Charity's employees has been

1:06:30 > 1:06:33urged by the international head of the Oxfam to tell their story.

1:06:33 > 1:06:35Winnie Byanyima said every complaint would be examined

1:06:35 > 1:06:37by an independent commission, and wrong-doers would

1:06:37 > 1:06:38be held to account.

1:06:39 > 1:06:42Police in Florida say the teenager accused of killing 17 people

1:06:42 > 1:06:45at a high school on Wednesday has confessed to the shooting.

1:06:45 > 1:06:4719-year-old Nikolas Cruz has appeared in court charged with 17

1:06:47 > 1:06:50counts of premeditated murder.

1:06:50 > 1:06:52It's emerged the FBI had been alerted to potential warning signs

1:06:52 > 1:06:56of the former student's intentions in the past.

1:06:59 > 1:07:02New figures show a dramatic reduction in the number of young

1:07:02 > 1:07:04people buying their own homes across the UK,

1:07:04 > 1:07:06over the last 20 years.

1:07:06 > 1:07:08The Institute for Fiscal Studies found only a quarter

1:07:08 > 1:07:11of those aged 25 to 34, on average incomes,

1:07:11 > 1:07:17were able to buy a property, compared to 2 out of 3 in 1998.

1:07:19 > 1:07:21A BBC investigation has revealed a significant difference

1:07:21 > 1:07:23between the highest earning male and female consultants working

1:07:23 > 1:07:25for the NHS in England.

1:07:25 > 1:07:28Figures show that one in five of the top 100 earners are women,

1:07:28 > 1:07:31while on average full time men earned £14,000 a year more

1:07:31 > 1:07:32than their female counterparts when including

1:07:32 > 1:07:37bonuses and overtime.

1:07:37 > 1:07:40Of the top 100 earning consultants five are women despite more than a

1:07:41 > 1:07:42third of the workforce being female.

1:07:42 > 1:07:43The Department of Health says it is committed

1:07:52 > 1:07:54The Hollywood actress Jennifer Aniston has announced

1:07:54 > 1:07:56she is to separate from her husband Justin Theroux after

1:07:56 > 1:07:57two years of marriage.

1:07:57 > 1:08:00The pair, who were married in a secret ceremony

1:08:00 > 1:08:02in Los Angeles in 2015, reportedly met on the set

1:08:02 > 1:08:03of comedy film Wanderlust.

1:08:03 > 1:08:06They gave no reason for the split but said it was a mutual decision

1:08:06 > 1:08:09which had been "lovingly made" at the end of last year.

1:08:09 > 1:08:16That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30.

1:08:16 > 1:08:20Thank you, we are going to hear more from our guests in the next hour and

1:08:20 > 1:08:25we will talk to the detect if inspect who led the investigation

1:08:25 > 1:08:28into Harry Bedell, her name is Sarah Oliver and we will hear from her

1:08:28 > 1:08:34shortly stop thank you for your many, many, many messages for these

1:08:34 > 1:08:35guys, we will read more.

1:08:35 > 1:08:38Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

1:08:38 > 1:08:41use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

1:08:41 > 1:08:42at the standard network rate.

1:08:42 > 1:08:46Here's some sport now with Hugh.

1:08:46 > 1:08:51Hello and good morning, Britain has its first medal of the Olympics, a

1:08:51 > 1:08:56bronze medal, thanks to Dominic Parsons, in the skeleton, fourth

1:08:56 > 1:09:00overnight, moved on to third after a strong run, solid final outing would

1:09:00 > 1:09:04have secured a bronze, he faltered slightly, it was enough to make it

1:09:04 > 1:09:07looked like he was going to finish outside the medals. Those above him

1:09:07 > 1:09:17were delighted, he thought his chance had gone.

1:09:17 > 1:09:20Because the five time world champion Martins Dukurs from Latvia also made

1:09:20 > 1:09:23a mistake on his final run -a huge surprise - leaving Dom Parsons

1:09:23 > 1:09:26to pick up a bronze and claim Britain's first medal in Pyeongchang

1:09:26 > 1:09:35and the first in men's skeleton in 70 years.

1:09:35 > 1:09:38Alex McLeish has agreed to become Scotland manager for the second time

1:09:38 > 1:09:39on a deal until 2020.

1:09:39 > 1:09:42It's 11 years since he left the job and the former Rangers

1:09:42 > 1:09:44and Birmingham boss replaces Gordon Strachan.

1:09:44 > 1:09:46The Scottish FA have turned to McLeish after failing to recruit

1:09:46 > 1:09:48Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill.

1:09:48 > 1:09:50England bowler Liam Plunkett has been ruled out of the rest

1:09:50 > 1:09:52of their limited overs tour of New Zealand with

1:09:52 > 1:09:53a hamstring injury.

1:09:53 > 1:09:56Plunkett aggravated a tear that he suffered in the one day

1:09:56 > 1:09:59series against Australia last month when he returned to the side

1:09:59 > 1:10:01for the T20 tri series match against New Zealand on Tuesday.

1:10:01 > 1:10:04England could still have a final to play in the T20 tri-series

1:10:04 > 1:10:07after Australia completed a record run chase to beat New Zealand by 5

1:10:07 > 1:10:09wickets in Auckland, reaching their target of 244

1:10:09 > 1:10:10with seven balls to spare.

1:10:10 > 1:10:13If England win against the Black Caps on Sunday

1:10:13 > 1:10:16they could go through.

1:10:20 > 1:10:22Leeds Rhinos are in Australia playing Melbourne Storm

1:10:22 > 1:10:24in the World Club Challenge.

1:10:24 > 1:10:27Leeds qualified for the match after winning the Super League Grand Final

1:10:27 > 1:10:29whilst Melbourne won the Australian NRL.

1:10:29 > 1:10:31Rhinos can equal Wigan's four World Club Challenge victories

1:10:31 > 1:10:36with a win but they trail by 18-4 at half-time.

1:10:43 > 1:10:49That is all your support for now. -- your sport for now.

1:10:49 > 1:10:51This morning: serious questions about how paedophile football coach

1:10:51 > 1:10:54Barry Bennell was allowed to operate for so long at 2 football clubs,

1:10:54 > 1:10:56abusing dozens of boys seemingly undetected.

1:10:56 > 1:10:58This programme has heard from senior figures at both Man City

1:10:58 > 1:11:01and Crewe Alexandra who say concerns about his behaviour

1:11:01 > 1:11:03was known at the time.

1:11:03 > 1:11:05Our reporter Jim Reed and producer Louis Lee Ray have been looking

1:11:05 > 1:11:07into this over the last 15 months...

1:11:13 > 1:11:16To his players and their parents he was the star maker,

1:11:16 > 1:11:18a talented coach, who could make or break dreams of

1:11:18 > 1:11:22playing professional.

1:11:22 > 1:11:26Very much a Pied Piper that the one that could open the door to this

1:11:26 > 1:11:28magical world of football.

1:11:28 > 1:11:31But it was all a front.

1:11:31 > 1:11:34A pretext to abuse dozens of children, hundreds of times

1:11:34 > 1:11:36across two continents.

1:11:36 > 1:11:39Eventually, he was a bully, he was a power freak.

1:11:39 > 1:11:43Barry Bennell had strong links to two teams.

1:11:43 > 1:11:47Manchester City and Crewe Alexandra.

1:11:51 > 1:11:53There are now difficult questions for the clubs involved,

1:11:53 > 1:11:55were they warned and should more have been done to

1:11:55 > 1:11:57protect young players.

1:11:57 > 1:12:00I mean inside, I was crying out for somebody at that club

1:12:00 > 1:12:04to say it's wrong, this.

1:12:07 > 1:12:10Manchester, a place where the industrial and domestic

1:12:10 > 1:12:13landscape can never conceal a romance with football,

1:12:13 > 1:12:15that makes it the home of two of the best supported

1:12:15 > 1:12:17teams in Britain.

1:12:17 > 1:12:20Greater Manchester, in the late 70s.

1:12:20 > 1:12:23Barry Bennell ran youth teams in the area with names

1:12:23 > 1:12:26like Whitehill and Pegasus.

1:12:26 > 1:12:29He was this Pied Piper character, what young boy who aspired to be

1:12:29 > 1:12:32a professional footballer wouldn't look up to that character,

1:12:32 > 1:12:34and respond to what they said was necessary in order

1:12:34 > 1:12:37to make that grade?

1:12:41 > 1:12:44The youngsters are an investment for the future and the competition

1:12:44 > 1:12:46for the really talented is intense.

1:12:46 > 1:12:48This was the era before youth development

1:12:48 > 1:12:51programmes, and academies.

1:12:51 > 1:12:53Clubs like Manchester City still recruited young players

1:12:53 > 1:12:55from local feeder teams run by amateur coaches.

1:12:55 > 1:13:00Barry Bennell was seen as one of the best.

1:13:03 > 1:13:06He was one of the guys that provided them with some

1:13:06 > 1:13:08of their prestige premier players, it was absolutely no

1:13:08 > 1:13:11doubt that he was a part of their system and set up,

1:13:11 > 1:13:14whether he was paid financially in a wage or by any other means.

1:13:19 > 1:13:21This programme has now learned of 11 players linked

1:13:21 > 1:13:25to Manchester City who now say they were abused by Bennell.

1:13:25 > 1:13:27One victim has told us abuse took place here,

1:13:27 > 1:13:31at Maine Road itself.

1:13:36 > 1:13:38In the late 70s, Platt Lane was Manchester City's

1:13:38 > 1:13:40main training ground.

1:13:40 > 1:13:47It's now owned by a university.

1:13:47 > 1:13:49Bennell was never an official member of staff here,

1:13:49 > 1:13:52but his teams played on these pitches in club kit.

1:13:52 > 1:13:55He carried a pass, and drove a car in club colours.

1:13:55 > 1:13:57No-one would ever doubt him because these big professional

1:13:57 > 1:13:59organisations like Manchester City gave him the opportunity

1:13:59 > 1:14:01to effectively have free run of the premises,

1:14:01 > 1:14:07and that's what convinced everybody he was genuine.

1:14:10 > 1:14:14But not everyone at the club was convinced.

1:14:14 > 1:14:16We have approximately 12 schoolboys each year.

1:14:16 > 1:14:18Steve Fleet was in charge of the Man City youth

1:14:18 > 1:14:22team in the late 70s.

1:14:22 > 1:14:25He didn't want to appear on camera, but told us he came under pressure

1:14:25 > 1:14:27from senior officials to hire Bennell and give him

1:14:28 > 1:14:31an official role at the club.

1:14:31 > 1:14:34I put my foot down, I wasn't working with a person like that.

1:14:39 > 1:14:41That time Fleet told us he won the argument.

1:14:41 > 1:14:44It was after he left in 1980 that it appeared Bennell

1:14:44 > 1:14:48became more involved.

1:14:48 > 1:14:51I knew it was wrong, but I just didn't have the stomach

1:14:51 > 1:14:55or the words to put my hand up and say anything.

1:14:58 > 1:15:01Gary Cliff signed as a schoolboy for Manchester City after playing

1:15:01 > 1:15:04for one of Barry Bennell's teams.

1:15:04 > 1:15:07He spoke exclusively to this programme.

1:15:07 > 1:15:09I didn't say anything, no parents were saying anything.

1:15:09 > 1:15:12No officials at the club were saying anything.

1:15:12 > 1:15:15Just didn't have the words.

1:15:15 > 1:15:21From the age of 11-15 he told us he was abused hundreds of times.

1:15:21 > 1:15:24At Bennell's house in a village in the Peak District, in his car,

1:15:24 > 1:15:27and at the stadium at Maine Road.

1:15:27 > 1:15:29Do you think the bosses at Manchester City knew

1:15:30 > 1:15:31what Bennell was doing?

1:15:31 > 1:15:35Yes, absolutely, they knew what he was.

1:15:35 > 1:15:37And they allowed it to continue, because he was

1:15:37 > 1:15:39producing the results.

1:15:42 > 1:15:45In a statement, Manchester City offered its sympathy to those

1:15:45 > 1:15:47affected, saying all victims were entitled to expect full

1:15:47 > 1:15:51protection from the kind of harm they endured.

1:15:53 > 1:15:56It has now started its own review into its links with Barry Bennell.

1:16:04 > 1:16:06A lot of the boys talked about him abusing other

1:16:06 > 1:16:12boys while at the home, and getting involved with them,

1:16:12 > 1:16:14and taking them to his flat, things like that.

1:16:15 > 1:16:17This programme can now reveal another link between Bennell

1:16:17 > 1:16:22and children at this time.

1:16:22 > 1:16:25Taxal Edge in Derbyshire, now converted into flats,

1:16:25 > 1:16:28was once a residential home for boys.

1:16:30 > 1:16:32In the early 80s Barry Bennell was employed here as a care worker.

1:16:33 > 1:16:35Did he used to stay overnight?

1:16:35 > 1:16:36He did.

1:16:36 > 1:16:42Yeah.

1:16:42 > 1:16:45At the home there's a sleep over room next to the dormitory,

1:16:45 > 1:16:49when he was on night duty he was on his own staying

1:16:49 > 1:16:49in the sleep over room.

1:16:49 > 1:16:52We've now spoken to a different man, one of Bennell's victims

1:16:52 > 1:16:54who is convinced he was abused in a flat on these grounds.

1:16:56 > 1:16:58Police say they are not formally investigating any new allegations

1:16:58 > 1:17:02about Bennell and this care home but this former resident says he's

1:17:02 > 1:17:04aware of at least three others who say they were abused

1:17:04 > 1:17:09by the coach.

1:17:09 > 1:17:10So you're pretty convinced that he was responsible

1:17:10 > 1:17:12for abuse at that home?

1:17:12 > 1:17:16He was responsible for abuse at Taxal edge children's home, yes.

1:17:21 > 1:17:23As for football, Barry Bennell's time with Manchester City

1:17:23 > 1:17:27ended abruptly in 1984.

1:17:27 > 1:17:30Why isn't clear, but it's thought he wanted a full-time coaching

1:17:30 > 1:17:34position, and was turned down.

1:17:36 > 1:17:38With his options limited he switched from one club

1:17:38 > 1:17:41in the north-west to another.

1:17:43 > 1:17:45The keeper, springing like a panther, denied the shot.

1:17:45 > 1:17:49The final score, 1-0...

1:17:49 > 1:17:50In 1983, Crewe Alexandra were struggling in the

1:17:50 > 1:17:53old fourth division.

1:17:54 > 1:17:57The club's promising young manager, Dario Gradi, had a plan,

1:17:57 > 1:18:00to train teenagers and sell them on to the top sides.

1:18:03 > 1:18:05We get good kids, and we compete for them.

1:18:05 > 1:18:07And then we make them into good players.

1:18:07 > 1:18:08It's a long process.

1:18:08 > 1:18:11But it's still easier for us.

1:18:13 > 1:18:16So, Bennell was brought in, finally on the club's payroll,

1:18:16 > 1:18:20responsible for youth development and scouting.

1:18:20 > 1:18:22They are learning all the time.

1:18:22 > 1:18:25We do a lot of talking to them, as well as showing them the skills,

1:18:26 > 1:18:27and explain in a game to them.

1:18:31 > 1:18:34Over the next decade, Crewe became known as the football factory,

1:18:34 > 1:18:36consistently producing young players who went to the very top.

1:18:36 > 1:18:40Its academy was one of the most respected in the game.

1:18:40 > 1:18:43There is more to it than just coming here one hour a week.

1:18:43 > 1:18:44You need to...

1:18:44 > 1:18:49Well, we give them homework.

1:18:49 > 1:18:54Again, though, there are rumours about Barry Bennell's dark side.

1:18:54 > 1:18:56One parent said he confronted the coach about inappropriate

1:18:56 > 1:18:58behaviour with children.

1:18:58 > 1:19:01Another told us she raised the alarm about boys sleeping

1:19:01 > 1:19:05in his bed on away trips.

1:19:05 > 1:19:07The strongest warning, though, is said to have come

1:19:07 > 1:19:10from inside the club itself.

1:19:10 > 1:19:17We're talking about 28 years ago, and it's not right.

1:19:17 > 1:19:19Former Crewe director Hamilton Smith told us in the late

1:19:19 > 1:19:2280s he played a second-hand allegation of abuse from a parent.

1:19:22 > 1:19:24So, this man, Crewe chairman Norman Robinson, was contacted

1:19:24 > 1:19:34and a board meeting set for the next day.

1:19:37 > 1:19:38-- Norman Rowlinson

1:19:38 > 1:19:41And so there took place a discussion with the other directors.

1:19:41 > 1:19:44I started to give Norman some idea of things that I had heard,

1:19:44 > 1:19:47and in particular the comment that was made the night before.

1:19:47 > 1:19:49And they said, why don't you tell me, is he going around

1:19:50 > 1:19:51playing with kids' bits and pieces?

1:19:51 > 1:19:54And he said, well, how does he get these kids?

1:19:54 > 1:19:56I said, he is like the Pied Piper.

1:19:56 > 1:19:58The board were aware of concerns about Barry Bennell?

1:19:58 > 1:19:59Oh, yes.

1:19:59 > 1:20:02As it went on, of course, there was so much banter

1:20:02 > 1:20:08around the dressing rooms, around the Football Club about it,

1:20:08 > 1:20:11odd remarks getting made here and there, if somebody...

1:20:11 > 1:20:13If you didn't know about it, God knows where you were,

1:20:13 > 1:20:17you were not at Crewe.

1:20:17 > 1:20:20But no parents had complained to the club, so Hamilton Smith said

1:20:20 > 1:20:21only more general concerns about boys sleeping

1:20:21 > 1:20:25in Bennell's house were raised with Crewe's manager.

1:20:25 > 1:20:28Dario Gradi, though, made it clear he had no problem

1:20:28 > 1:20:32with the coach and Bennell kept his job.

1:20:32 > 1:20:35Crewe Alexandra as a club say that they didn't know anything

1:20:35 > 1:20:37about Bennell's behaviour.

1:20:37 > 1:20:40How does that make you feel?

1:20:40 > 1:20:43Furious, absolutely furious.

1:20:43 > 1:20:48I find it difficult to believe that, with all the banter that was going

1:20:48 > 1:20:51on, all that was happening, the meeting that we had, the special

1:20:51 > 1:20:53board meeting that we had, and they are still saying

1:20:53 > 1:21:00they didn't know something was going on.

1:21:00 > 1:21:05Everybody involved could have done, and should have done, a lot more.

1:21:06 > 1:21:10Cheshire Police say their investigation could find no evidence

1:21:10 > 1:21:17for conspiracy to cover up allegations of abuse.

1:21:17 > 1:21:19Senior officials at Crewe Alexandra have always denied knowing anything

1:21:19 > 1:21:24about Bennell's actions.

1:21:24 > 1:21:30Today's chairman, John Bowler, was on the board through the 1980s.

1:21:30 > 1:21:32Again, were you aware at any point of what was doing?

1:21:33 > 1:21:34No.

1:21:34 > 1:21:36How do you feel about the fact was doing those things?

1:21:36 > 1:21:38When you were chairman of the club?

1:21:38 > 1:21:41Infuriated.

1:21:41 > 1:21:43I have made my statement, I have nothing more to add.

1:21:43 > 1:21:46In 1997, then manager Dario Gradi said he had no cause for concern

1:21:46 > 1:21:49when Bennell was there.

1:21:50 > 1:21:53In 2016, he said the first anyone at Crewe knew of any crimes

1:21:53 > 1:21:56was when he was finally arrested in the mid-90s.

1:22:07 > 1:22:10But we now know beyond any doubt that children were

1:22:10 > 1:22:14abused at this club.

1:22:14 > 1:22:16In the changing rooms, on the training pitch,

1:22:16 > 1:22:21the home of the manager himself when he was away.

1:22:21 > 1:22:24I mean, inside I was crying out for somebody of that club,

1:22:24 > 1:22:28at Crewe Alexandra, to say, it's wrong, this.

1:22:30 > 1:22:32It didn't happen, so...

1:22:32 > 1:22:35Took this man, former Crewe player Andy Woodward to come forward,

1:22:35 > 1:22:39for the truth to come out.

1:22:39 > 1:22:42He spoke to the Guardian newspaper and to this programme.

1:22:42 > 1:22:44That is why now I want others to come forward.

1:22:44 > 1:22:47Because it's not right.

1:22:49 > 1:22:52Good morning, we are talking to Chris Unsworth, Jason Dunford

1:22:52 > 1:22:53and to Steve Walters...

1:22:53 > 1:22:56Others did come forward.

1:22:56 > 1:22:57A week later, he was back in the same studio,

1:22:57 > 1:22:59with three more players.

1:23:01 > 1:23:05Everything we have been through has been brushed under the carpet.

1:23:05 > 1:23:08This is why we are here today.

1:23:08 > 1:23:11My career has been ruined, my relationship has been ruined.

1:23:15 > 1:23:18I just had to get it out there, because this can never,

1:23:18 > 1:23:21ever happen to any more children.

1:23:24 > 1:23:27In his latest trial, the jury heard about the impact

1:23:27 > 1:23:30of what Barry Bennell has done.

1:23:31 > 1:23:34Four men he trained have taken their own lives,

1:23:34 > 1:23:37including former Wales manager Gary Speed, although there

1:23:37 > 1:23:41is no evidence they were abused by the coach.

1:23:41 > 1:23:44Others have been left damaged by what happened to them.

1:23:44 > 1:23:46They were all children, young boys who just had

1:23:46 > 1:23:49the misfortune of playing football for a man who, for three decades,

1:23:49 > 1:23:53went almost unchallenged.

1:24:00 > 1:24:02Jim, any more from the clubs involved?

1:24:02 > 1:24:10Yes, Manchester City, as you heard in that film,

1:24:10 > 1:24:16They have launched a review and into their safeguarding policy, the

1:24:16 > 1:24:19waiting for the results of that. Crewe have repeated that they were

1:24:19 > 1:24:28not aware as a club of abuse by Barry Bennell. They have point out

1:24:28 > 1:24:32the police have looked into this and could not find any evidence that the

1:24:32 > 1:24:37club was aware of any wrongdoing or abuse by Barry Bennell. If they had

1:24:37 > 1:24:40suspicions or anybody at the club had suspicions, they say they would

1:24:40 > 1:24:46have informed the police immediately.

1:24:46 > 1:24:49I wanted to ask you about compensation. Are you going to

1:24:49 > 1:24:53pursue compensation from Crewe Alexandra or Manchester City, or

1:24:53 > 1:25:04both?From my point of view, I said it in court, I have instructed a

1:25:04 > 1:25:06specialist sexual abuse lawyer to investigate Manchester City. I have

1:25:06 > 1:25:11no control over that. And there is nothing wrong with doing that, it is

1:25:11 > 1:25:16a civil case. Nobody should be ashamed of that. He ruined my life.

1:25:16 > 1:25:19If there is any compensation or damages there, of course I am going

1:25:19 > 1:25:31to take it. That remains to be seen. It is ongoing.I am the same. People

1:25:31 > 1:25:40have asked me, you know, I do want an apology, to start off with.From

1:25:40 > 1:25:45Bennell?From the clubs he was involved with. He has ruined my

1:25:45 > 1:25:51life. Should I get something for it? I think I should.In respect to

1:25:51 > 1:25:55myself, I can't make any claim against Crewe, because I previously

1:25:55 > 1:26:02did do that. That is why...That was not successful?Yes, I was on my own

1:26:02 > 1:26:07back then. In terms of me speaking out, I knew in November that I

1:26:07 > 1:26:09couldn't make any claim of compensation against Crewe

1:26:09 > 1:26:14Alexandra. But I do believe, like Gary says, the torment that all of

1:26:14 > 1:26:21us have been through as children, it has ruined our lives. It has

1:26:21 > 1:26:25affected everybody.I have an e-mail here from somebody that wishes to

1:26:25 > 1:26:33remain anonymous. It begins, I am a mother of an ex-premiership

1:26:33 > 1:26:37footballer. I have asked my son about possible abuse, and he has

1:26:37 > 1:26:41assured me that nothing has happened to him, thank God. My point is, as

1:26:41 > 1:26:46parents of young kids, clubs in general, my experience, not only do

1:26:46 > 1:26:50not monitor the care of their kids and their welfare, but they also do

1:26:50 > 1:26:55not involve parents, or inform them adequately. I always felt shut down

1:26:55 > 1:26:59when I asked questions. Once, I remember ringing one of the train is

1:26:59 > 1:27:05concerned about the young player's bus coach time to arrive at the

1:27:05 > 1:27:10ground, and the delay in returning from a trip. I was told, don't be

1:27:10 > 1:27:14neurotic. I should be given more information as a concerned parent of

1:27:14 > 1:27:18a young footballer. What happened to these footballers could easily have

1:27:18 > 1:27:23happened to my son. My total sympathies to them. My sympathies

1:27:23 > 1:27:26also to their parents, who were kept in the dark am excluded from any

1:27:26 > 1:27:33important decisions concerning the well-being of their sons.

1:27:33 > 1:27:36Congratulations on your excellent journalism on this matter. If you

1:27:36 > 1:27:39want to send an e-mail, please do.

1:27:46 > 1:27:51As we have heard really clearly on the programme, the abuse has a

1:27:51 > 1:27:56devastating impact on the lives of these men, and also on their

1:27:56 > 1:27:57families and partners.

1:27:57 > 1:28:00Gary Cliffe has been with his wife Emma for over 23 years -

1:28:00 > 1:28:03and he told her about the abuse he suffered at the hands

1:28:03 > 1:28:07of his former coach after about a year of being together.

1:28:07 > 1:28:10The couple have now been married 20 years and Emma joins

1:28:10 > 1:28:12us in the studio now.

1:28:12 > 1:28:19Good morning. I know you really had to think hard about wanting to talk

1:28:19 > 1:28:24about this, from your point of view. But he thought it was important,

1:28:24 > 1:28:32why?I think it is important to tell the story of the wives, girlfriends,

1:28:32 > 1:28:37the mothers and fathers, the families. They play such a big part

1:28:37 > 1:28:43in supporting these guys. As you said, I have known for over 20

1:28:43 > 1:28:54years. Gary told me about 23 years ago. But at that age, at that time,

1:28:54 > 1:29:02I did not understand the full impact. It has been quite a long

1:29:02 > 1:29:07haul. We have had a lot of ups and downs, Gary has been in for

1:29:07 > 1:29:11treatment, had counselling and lots of support, medically, as well as

1:29:11 > 1:29:17through family and friends. I would say the last couple of years have

1:29:17 > 1:29:21been really tough, with all of the court cases and everything.What

1:29:21 > 1:29:25about the impact on you? You have been there constantly over the last

1:29:25 > 1:29:28two decades, supporting your husband. Knowing what he had

1:29:28 > 1:29:37experienced as a young boy.Yes, it has had quite an impact. He has had

1:29:37 > 1:29:47some real dark moments. You know, it has been quite scary for me and for

1:29:47 > 1:29:54his family as well. He kept it a secret from the wider family and

1:29:54 > 1:30:02from our friends. He has only told them in the last 18 months, I think.

1:30:02 > 1:30:07He was terrified of anybody finding out. That was my secret to keep as

1:30:07 > 1:30:13well, that was quite tough.What kind of a burden is it to keep that

1:30:13 > 1:30:20secret?

1:30:20 > 1:30:29It's really hard because I want to do what's right for him. And it was

1:30:29 > 1:30:34him that wanted to keep it a secret so you do everything in your power

1:30:34 > 1:30:37for that not to happen because I thought that was the best thing for

1:30:37 > 1:30:44him and at the time I think it was. We had many celebrations, family

1:30:44 > 1:30:49dos, birthdays, events for I went on my own because Gary couldn't face

1:30:49 > 1:30:56going. And it was always the excuse, he's working because he just

1:30:56 > 1:31:00couldn't sometimes go out the door to go to those events and didn't

1:31:00 > 1:31:08want to be sociable to people and many a time I was on my own. But I

1:31:08 > 1:31:14felt that was the right thing to do at the time.And just looking at

1:31:14 > 1:31:25Gary now, do you want to come over and then be can hear you? What a

1:31:25 > 1:31:30woman!What a woman. She's been through hell.You think she's been

1:31:30 > 1:31:39through hell as well?God, yes, she spent propping me up for 23 years

1:31:39 > 1:31:46and she's had her own health scare in 2008, she's been immense.I've

1:31:46 > 1:31:49spoken to you both about this before, the fact you don't have

1:31:49 > 1:31:53children, I think there are medical reasons, you considered adoption.

1:31:53 > 1:32:00You didn't go ahead with that. Is that, this is what happened to you

1:32:00 > 1:32:06as a boy partly relevant to why you didn't pursue adoption?I've never

1:32:06 > 1:32:10had that urge for children like most men have, never had that urge

1:32:10 > 1:32:14because of what happened to me, totally rational thoughts, totally

1:32:14 > 1:32:26stupid I know. -- totally irrational.OK. Thank you stop thank

1:32:26 > 1:32:31you,, thank you so much for being so honest. Gary, thank you. Let's pause

1:32:31 > 1:32:36for a moment and I would be this message from June the text it to

1:32:36 > 1:32:40say, I just want to say well done to these men, you're extremely brave

1:32:40 > 1:32:45and as a nation we thank you for bringing light to this, anyone who

1:32:45 > 1:32:48has a child will realise how disgusting, cruel and manipulative

1:32:48 > 1:32:58Harry Ben Allen's behaviour was. -- Barry Bennell's behaviour was. Lee

1:32:58 > 1:33:01soldier head up high, you should not feel ashamed, and your families

1:33:01 > 1:33:12should not either. -- hold your head up high.

1:33:12 > 1:33:14As you would expect with a paedophile as prolific

1:33:14 > 1:33:15as Barry Bennell, the police investigation into

1:33:15 > 1:33:17what he did was huge.

1:33:17 > 1:33:20Over the last 12 months the police have spoken to over 2,000 people,

1:33:20 > 1:33:22taken over 500 statements and interviewed Bennell 30 times.

1:33:22 > 1:33:25We can speak now to the officer who ran the team: Detective

1:33:25 > 1:33:28Inspector Sarah Oliver - of Cheshire Police.

1:33:28 > 1:33:32What's your reaction? A mixture of relief, relief and joy that justice

1:33:32 > 1:33:38has been done. Release that verdict has come back in as guilty, those

1:33:38 > 1:33:41guys have been listened to, the lead, and the jury have reflected

1:33:41 > 1:33:46that.You were in Court, you heard the men give evidence, you've heard

1:33:46 > 1:33:51some of them again this morning, how do you react about the way they have

1:33:51 > 1:33:59spoken and what he endured?I would reflect the comments of your callers

1:33:59 > 1:34:02and viewers this morning, the dignity has been incredible, I have

1:34:02 > 1:34:08no doubt it was incredibly difficult them to go through the process, six

1:34:08 > 1:34:13weeks after 30 years, they've waited such a long time.We are going to

1:34:13 > 1:34:16play for the audience a clip from one of the police interviews

1:34:16 > 1:34:19conducted with Barry Bennell, let's just listen.

1:34:58 > 1:35:02He's acknowledging the grooming process. Absolutely, he knows

1:35:02 > 1:35:05exactly what to say and he knew what he was doing. Incredibly

1:35:05 > 1:35:14manipulative individual.What was he like to interview?As I say, he knew

1:35:14 > 1:35:19what to say, the right things, but never created the impression it was

1:35:19 > 1:35:22heartfelt, never shown any rewards, his eagle came through and there

1:35:22 > 1:35:28were times he let slip that he'd go with comments, setting the record

1:35:28 > 1:35:32straight around his hair being naturally curly not permed, that

1:35:32 > 1:35:38level of pride. Narcissism. Absolutely Ulster do you think he

1:35:38 > 1:35:46has any idea of the lives he has ruined?-- absolutely. Do you think

1:35:46 > 1:35:54he has any idea of the lives he has ruined?Whether he can empathise is

1:35:54 > 1:36:00another matter, I don't think he has the capacity.Let's talk about how

1:36:00 > 1:36:04challenging this case was put you and your officers, some of these

1:36:04 > 1:36:08crimes happened 30-35 years ago, there are no forensics,

1:36:08 > 1:36:13house-to-house enquiries, can you give the audience an insight into

1:36:13 > 1:36:17how you investigate crimes of this nature?It's a huge undertaking when

1:36:17 > 1:36:23you get crimes of this nature, especially mass reporting as we saw

1:36:23 > 1:36:29here. The key thing is to get in touch with the guys making the

1:36:29 > 1:36:32complaints and reassure them, set about getting their accounts in

1:36:32 > 1:36:36detail so we can go through that line by line and corroborate every

1:36:36 > 1:36:40detail that we can because you quite rightly say, many modern

1:36:40 > 1:36:47investigative techniques are not there, medical, forensics, telecom,

1:36:47 > 1:36:51it's a question of corroborating as much as we can and going through as

1:36:51 > 1:36:55much detail as we can.We know including the 12 complainants that

1:36:55 > 1:37:02went through this trial there are 96 alleged big tins of Barry Bennell in

1:37:02 > 1:37:09total, there are a further 86 alleged victims. Does this mean this

1:37:09 > 1:37:14investigation is ongoing? -- alleged victims.The inquiry is very much

1:37:14 > 1:37:20ongoing. The verdict of this tool does not mean we are finished.What

1:37:20 > 1:37:23would you say to someone watching now who is considering whether to

1:37:23 > 1:37:27make a complaint to the police about what they experienced as a child?I

1:37:27 > 1:37:32would say if you have been the victim of sexual abuse no matter how

1:37:32 > 1:37:38long ago, reported via 101, we will listen and support you and hopefully

1:37:38 > 1:37:44you too can get your justice.What you say to those who say police

1:37:44 > 1:37:49should concentrate on current victims of child sexual abuse, not

1:37:49 > 1:37:52investigating things that were alleged to have happened three

1:37:52 > 1:37:58decades ago.It is a real challenge, I don't dispute that, we have

1:37:58 > 1:38:00conflicting demands placed on our teams but what I would say, first

1:38:00 > 1:38:05and foremost, we have to establish if these guys were operating alone,

1:38:05 > 1:38:10there might be people out there still working and connect it to

1:38:10 > 1:38:13children that happened been reported and we need to identify those and

1:38:13 > 1:38:20also, for these guys, you heard them say, it's not over for them, it

1:38:20 > 1:38:23still very, very current, the impact, distress and trauma and it's

1:38:23 > 1:38:28only right issue get their day in court.I want to read you the latest

1:38:28 > 1:38:34figures which go up to the end of 2017 regarding allegations of

1:38:34 > 1:38:41historic child sexual abuse in football. 839 alleged victims,

1:38:41 > 1:38:48across the country, referrals from police and the NSPCC, 294 alleged

1:38:48 > 1:38:55suspects identified. 334 football clubs named. The age range of

1:38:55 > 1:38:59alleged big teams at the time of the abuse, four years of age up to 20

1:38:59 > 1:39:07years old. What you say about the scale of this? -- alleged victims.

1:39:07 > 1:39:13There has been a perfect storm taking place.The magnetism of

1:39:13 > 1:39:17football, people with a predilection for abusing children, what I would

1:39:17 > 1:39:22say to all parents out there, be reassured, things are so different

1:39:22 > 1:39:26now, the systems are in place and if you have any concerns about a child,

1:39:26 > 1:39:32report it and it will be responded to very differently.Thank you there

1:39:32 > 1:39:35much, Detective Inspector Sarah Oliver from Cheshire Police. Thank

1:39:35 > 1:39:44you for your time.

1:39:44 > 1:39:47Crewe Alexandra's former managing director has exclusively told this

1:39:47 > 1:39:49programme that he warned the club about Barry Bennell's behaviour

1:39:49 > 1:39:51during the late 80s - and that his warnings were brushed

1:39:51 > 1:39:52under the carpet.

1:39:52 > 1:39:56Hamilton Smith was on the board at Crewe between 1986 and 1990.

1:39:56 > 1:39:58After hearing rumours of inappropriate behaviour

1:39:58 > 1:40:01and a second-hand allegation of abuse from an anonymous parent,

1:40:01 > 1:40:07he says he changed the agenda of a board meeting to deal directly

1:40:07 > 1:40:11with concerns about the youth coach.

1:40:11 > 1:40:19Jim is back.

1:40:19 > 1:40:23This man is Hamilton Smith, you've seen parts of an interview with him

1:40:23 > 1:40:26already this morning, he served that managing director of Crewe Alexandra

1:40:26 > 1:40:31in the late 1980s, one of the most important members of the backroom

1:40:31 > 1:40:35staff, we are going to play the entire interview and he mentions a

1:40:35 > 1:40:40number of different people, including this man, Norman

1:40:40 > 1:40:45Rowlandson, the chairman of Crewe Alexei dropped to 1989, John Alder,

1:40:45 > 1:40:50vice chairman in the 1980s, another important man, took over as chairman

1:40:50 > 1:40:57in 1989, still the chairman today, and Dario Gradi, manager of Crewe

1:40:57 > 1:41:02Alexandra from 83-2011, stepped down, now the club's director of

1:41:02 > 1:41:06football, currently suspended by the Football Association violet

1:41:06 > 1:41:10investigates how abuse claims were handled. We spoke to Hamilton Smith

1:41:10 > 1:41:16and asked him what he remembers about Barry then all. -- Barry

1:41:16 > 1:41:28Bennell.The kids were in all of him. He was the guy who was going to

1:41:28 > 1:41:32make their career.Crewe Alexandra had a strong reputation at that time

1:41:32 > 1:41:38for developing young players and selling them on to other clubs. How

1:41:38 > 1:41:43important was Barry Bennell in that operation?Very important. Dario

1:41:43 > 1:41:49told me on more than one occasion he was more important to Creole exam

1:41:49 > 1:41:54than I am and that is a hell of a statement.There are some questions

1:41:54 > 1:41:59around his financial situation, he would get paid, a section of salon

1:41:59 > 1:42:05fees lips is yes, the club agreed Dario should get 10% off any players

1:42:05 > 1:42:11he was able to move on, and one day he came to me and said I want to

1:42:11 > 1:42:18change that 10% on the income from transfers, I want 3% to go to Barry

1:42:18 > 1:42:23and I will have 7%.When did you start hearing complaints about the

1:42:23 > 1:42:29behaviour of Barry Bennell? My lad played with a football team, I could

1:42:29 > 1:42:35hear comments being made by parents, Simon wants to go to Crewe Alexandra

1:42:35 > 1:42:42but I'm not having it.Then you heard a specific warning...That was

1:42:42 > 1:42:49a very, that was a shock, it was only a couple of minutes to go and

1:42:49 > 1:42:54there was a corner kick and it was raining and I thought, I'll watch

1:42:54 > 1:42:59this corner kick, must be nearly time, I was watching that and this

1:42:59 > 1:43:09man appeared in front of me and he said, my friend's son was abused by

1:43:09 > 1:43:14the football coach at Crewe Alexandra. He turned and walked away

1:43:14 > 1:43:20and the final whistle went. All the other parents started to move away

1:43:20 > 1:43:25and I was stunned and I then looked to see if I could see this man, any

1:43:25 > 1:43:29semblance of him, but there was nothing. Driving home, I thought,

1:43:29 > 1:43:36no, this is no good, I've had it right up to here. It's got to stop.

1:43:36 > 1:43:40Mr Smith says a meeting was called at the house of this man, but then

1:43:40 > 1:43:47chairman Norman Rowlandson and...I started to give Norman some idea of

1:43:47 > 1:43:51things I'd heard and in particular the comment made the night before

1:43:51 > 1:43:57and he said, what you telling me? Is he going around playing with kids

1:43:57 > 1:44:01bits and pieces? Norman then said I've been on the phone and I've run

1:44:01 > 1:44:06up the Chief super and and asked him if there was anything on this guide

1:44:06 > 1:44:14Barry Bennell and the answer was no. But we suggest you move along. And

1:44:14 > 1:44:19so the two place a discussion with the other directors and they had a

1:44:19 > 1:44:23dilemma and the dilemma was, wait a minute, Norman, it's OK to say let's

1:44:23 > 1:44:29get rid of him but he is employed now, nobody has complained.Hamilton

1:44:29 > 1:44:34Smith claims it was decided he and John Bowler, the club's

1:44:34 > 1:44:39vice-chairman would hold a meeting with Ariel Gradi the next day, the

1:44:39 > 1:44:44vice-chairman would still Mr Gradi to stop Barry Bennell from having

1:44:44 > 1:44:50boys stay at his house.John said to Dario I need to bring your attention

1:44:50 > 1:44:55we have a problem with Barry Bennell. What do you mean you have a

1:44:55 > 1:44:59problem? Well, the understanding is he is actually taking kids home at

1:44:59 > 1:45:08the weekend to his house. Yes. And what? Well, this has got to stop.

1:45:08 > 1:45:14Well, he said, I take kids home. I haven't had any complaints, I

1:45:14 > 1:45:18haven't had any parent who came here and complained about Barry Bennell

1:45:18 > 1:45:24to me. I felt the whole thing was farcical. It was serious enough to

1:45:24 > 1:45:29say no, this needs to stop and give him the reasons why it needs to

1:45:29 > 1:45:33stop. I never saw anything happening after that meeting, never saw any

1:45:33 > 1:45:38evidence of anything happening.

1:45:38 > 1:45:44Do you feel guilty?Yes, don't forget I was a director as well. I'm

1:45:44 > 1:45:48not eliminating myself from that responsibility. The guilt is from

1:45:48 > 1:45:51not going back to the chairman, that was a big mistake. I should have

1:45:51 > 1:45:55gone back to the chairman and given him the opportunity to do something

1:45:55 > 1:45:59about it. If I had done that, maybe things would not have happened to

1:45:59 > 1:46:06some of these kids.In your mind, the board were aware of concerns

1:46:06 > 1:46:13about Barry Bennell?Yes, if you didn't know about it, God knows

1:46:13 > 1:46:21where you were, you are not asked Crewe.There was a documentary

1:46:21 > 1:46:23broadcast, looking at those allegations were the first time.

1:46:23 > 1:46:30What did you think when you looked at that?Terrible. Absolutely

1:46:30 > 1:46:40terrible. That this had to come to light in America, not here.After

1:46:40 > 1:46:42watching the Dispatches programme, Hamilton Smith said he set up a

1:46:42 > 1:46:46meeting with John Bowler. By that point, he was Crewe Alexandra's

1:46:46 > 1:46:53chairman. He hasn't yet watched the Dispatches.Everybody that was

1:46:53 > 1:46:55interviewed said they did not know anything, there was nothing that

1:46:55 > 1:47:01they knew about anything going on at all. I said, you know that when I

1:47:01 > 1:47:13called that special meeting, Norman's house, when I confronted

1:47:13 > 1:47:14called that special meeting, Norman's house, when I confronted, I

1:47:14 > 1:47:17was confronted at the training ground by a parent. He said, no,

1:47:17 > 1:47:22that is not what happened, he did not let me finish the sentence. To

1:47:22 > 1:47:26me, a barefaced liar. I know about the meeting, I called the meeting!

1:47:26 > 1:47:31Speaking in 2016, the Crewe chairman said he had not known about

1:47:31 > 1:47:35Bennell's behaviour at the time. Were you aware at any point of what

1:47:35 > 1:47:40he was doing?No.How do you feel about the fact he was doing those

1:47:40 > 1:47:46things when you were chairman? Infuriated and very disappointed.In

1:47:46 > 1:47:50a statement, the club reiterated that if it had any suspicion that Mr

1:47:50 > 1:47:55app was committing acts of abuse, before, during or after he left the

1:47:55 > 1:47:57club's employment, the club would have informed the police

1:47:57 > 1:48:06immediately. In 2001, Hamilton Smith set up a meeting with the head of

1:48:06 > 1:48:11safeguarding at the club, Tony Pickering. What was the reaction

1:48:11 > 1:48:15that he got from the FA have the time?I received what I would call a

1:48:15 > 1:48:21Dear John letter. We have investigated the issue is that you

1:48:21 > 1:48:26have raised and we find there is nothing to respond to.What was your

1:48:26 > 1:48:34reaction?For the very first time...

1:48:40 > 1:48:48For the very first time I was able to equate with my conscience that I

1:48:48 > 1:48:54had done everything I could. That was the last call.Crewe Alexandra

1:48:54 > 1:48:59as a club say that they did not know anything about his behaviour. How

1:48:59 > 1:49:06does that make you feel?Furious. Absolutely furious. I find it

1:49:06 > 1:49:09difficult to believe, with all of the banter that was going on, all

1:49:09 > 1:49:12that was happening, the meeting and we had, the special board meeting

1:49:12 > 1:49:18that we had, and they are still saying they didn't know something

1:49:18 > 1:49:22was going on.Good Crewe Alexandra Football Club, and the Football

1:49:22 > 1:49:31Association, -- did they do brush it under the carpet?Yes, if you take

1:49:31 > 1:49:33the Football Club first, the chairman denied the meeting I had

1:49:33 > 1:49:43called had taken place. The FA sent me a letter, saying they had

1:49:43 > 1:49:46investigated the issues raised and there was nothing to report.

1:49:46 > 1:49:55Everybody involved could have done, and should have done, a lot more.

1:49:55 > 1:50:05Where do we go next?I think we are, in inverted commas, a good society.

1:50:05 > 1:50:10But the FA, the Government, the institutions do not seem to have the

1:50:10 > 1:50:19wit to tackle and stop this horrific thing going on. Bring in some of the

1:50:19 > 1:50:23lads that have been abused. They will know what to look for if they

1:50:23 > 1:50:29go to a Football Club. We will never probably eliminate this 100%. But,

1:50:29 > 1:50:36for gods sake, let's try harder. Let's try harder.It is worth

1:50:36 > 1:50:40pointing out that the FA are in the process of carrying out their own

1:50:40 > 1:50:43independent inquiry into abuse in the game. They say they cannot

1:50:43 > 1:50:47comment on that film or what Mr Smith was saying until the report

1:50:47 > 1:50:50has been published. Tony Pickering, mentioned there, the former head of

1:50:50 > 1:50:52safeguarding at the FA, was approached for comment but would

1:50:52 > 1:50:57only say he has spoken to the independent inquiry and will wait to

1:50:57 > 1:51:00see its findings. As for Crewe Alexandra, it is worth repeating

1:51:00 > 1:51:04that the club say it was not aware of any sexual abuse by Bennell and

1:51:04 > 1:51:13did not receive a single complaint about him. It pointed out the police

1:51:13 > 1:51:15have conducted their own investigation and could find no

1:51:15 > 1:51:19evidence to corroborate that the club was aware of his offending. It

1:51:19 > 1:51:22says if there was any suspicion over him, they would have informed the

1:51:22 > 1:51:25police immediately.

1:51:25 > 1:51:32How do we make sure that predatory paedophiles like Barry Bennell are

1:51:32 > 1:51:43not able to operate with impunity in the future?

1:51:43 > 1:51:46With us in the studio is the NSPCC's head of policy Almudena Lara

1:51:46 > 1:51:49and from our Sheffield studio we can speak to former Labour sports

1:51:49 > 1:51:51minister Richard Caborn and the Labour MP for

1:51:51 > 1:51:53Crewe Laura Smtih - who is Hamilton Smith's daughter -

1:51:53 > 1:51:56the former managing director at Crewe who we just heard from.

1:51:56 > 1:52:03As the Labour MP for the area, are you satisfied that Crewe are doing

1:52:03 > 1:52:06their own inquiry?We are 15 months into this, and they have not started

1:52:06 > 1:52:11it, as far as I am concerned. Crewe really need to use this opportunity

1:52:11 > 1:52:20to come clean and make sure, not just the supporters, our town feel

1:52:20 > 1:52:25satisfied with the independent investigation. These guys feel

1:52:25 > 1:52:28satisfied. They have been brave enough to come forward and they need

1:52:28 > 1:52:37to get their answers to the questions we have all got.As a

1:52:37 > 1:52:40solicitor, what is your view on how we stop others abusing in the way

1:52:40 > 1:52:43that Barry Bennell was able to do over such a long period of time?A

1:52:43 > 1:52:49useful tool in my view would be mandatory reporting.So it is the

1:52:49 > 1:52:52law that if you know something, you have to make a complaint to the

1:52:52 > 1:52:57police?Definitely, we have been relying on survivors for too long.

1:52:57 > 1:53:03It is not fair on whistle-blowers, those who have concerns, we need to

1:53:03 > 1:53:07make it safe for everybody in sport and this would help this.Let me ask

1:53:07 > 1:53:12you, first of all, you are not... You don't think mandatory reporting

1:53:12 > 1:53:18necessarily would help?It would not help in all situations. It is very,

1:53:18 > 1:53:22very clear, looking at these particular cases, that if people

1:53:22 > 1:53:27knew they should have taken action, not taking action when you know

1:53:27 > 1:53:33about abuse is not an option. But we don't think that mandatory reporting

1:53:33 > 1:53:38is the right way forward in all cases.What do you want the

1:53:38 > 1:53:43government back Rutte do?Well, one of the small and simple changes that

1:53:43 > 1:53:48the NSPCC has been asking for is an extension of the positions of trust.

1:53:48 > 1:53:52The positions of trust applied to teachers at present, who cannot have

1:53:52 > 1:54:02six with 16 and 17-year-olds in their care -- have sex. It does not

1:54:02 > 1:54:06apply to sport coaches. We work congratulating ourselves on the

1:54:06 > 1:54:09government promising to make this change. As of today, we know nothing

1:54:09 > 1:54:13about their plans to make this happen. This is something that we

1:54:13 > 1:54:16believe is a simple change that would protect children. It will not

1:54:16 > 1:54:22make it safer for all children. More needs to be done to develop a

1:54:22 > 1:54:28culture of safeguarding.Laura Smith, your father has given an

1:54:28 > 1:54:32interview. Hamilton Smith has given this interview and has spoken with

1:54:32 > 1:54:40such candour about what he tried to do. What do you think of what he

1:54:40 > 1:54:44said?My whole life, I know that my dad was trying to be heard. He went

1:54:44 > 1:54:50to many different bodies. Until he have that brave survivor in Andy

1:54:50 > 1:54:56Woodward, sitting on the show, he did not have the evidence and was

1:54:56 > 1:55:00not listened to. We must never, ever, let this kind of thing happen

1:55:00 > 1:55:05again.Thank you all for your patience. Thank you for coming on

1:55:05 > 1:55:12the programme this morning. We have had so many messages from our

1:55:12 > 1:55:22audience, for Steve Walters, Gary Cliffe, I am going to read some. At

1:55:22 > 1:55:25the relevant moment, my tablet has frozen. Bear with me. You can tell

1:55:25 > 1:55:32me what lessons you think of to be learned from your own experiences.

1:55:32 > 1:55:41What would you say?From my point of view, Victoria, a massive thing

1:55:41 > 1:55:44would be overnight stays. They don't need to happen. You don't need to go

1:55:44 > 1:55:51to your coach's house to stay overnight. Forget football, forget

1:55:51 > 1:55:54sport, any kid staying overnight at a friend's house, you don't know

1:55:54 > 1:55:57that person where they are staying. I know it is a big comment, but you

1:55:57 > 1:56:01don't know that person. Just think about it. You've got to take away

1:56:01 > 1:56:06that arena for the abuse.Let me read some of these messages. This is

1:56:06 > 1:56:10from Alex. You have reduced me, a grown adult, to tears, listening to

1:56:10 > 1:56:16the stories of these four courageous men. May we reward their bravery in

1:56:16 > 1:56:19sharing their hardship by working to prevent anyone having to go through

1:56:19 > 1:56:23anything like this ever again. Anne says you are the strongest men that

1:56:23 > 1:56:29she knows. She says, I consider them my family, and I am very proud of

1:56:29 > 1:56:35them all. Richard says it is heartbreaking watching the

1:56:35 > 1:56:37programme, total respect to all of those involved. I wish you well and

1:56:37 > 1:56:42thank you for coming forward. This is not just in football, but it is

1:56:42 > 1:56:45covered up generally. Time for the Government to step up and sort this

1:56:45 > 1:56:56out. Sheila says I have sold -- I have been sobbing throughout this

1:56:56 > 1:56:59programme, strong, grown-up men, but the sadness on their faces is

1:56:59 > 1:57:03heartbreaking. Someone who doesn't want to leave their name, I feel I

1:57:03 > 1:57:06should tell my story, but I don't know who to tell. I have kept it

1:57:06 > 1:57:14away in Pandora's box. I was a promising young footballer, we had

1:57:14 > 1:57:20won the youth five aside, knocking out Crewe youth, what happened next

1:57:20 > 1:57:25was not nice. What should they do? It is just reaching out. There are

1:57:25 > 1:57:30all different sorts of areas where you can reach out to various

1:57:30 > 1:57:33different authorities. You know, the first step is actually making the

1:57:33 > 1:57:36phone call. I think that is the hardest thing. It was probably the

1:57:36 > 1:57:41hardest thing for these guys. I think once you let go of that, that

1:57:41 > 1:57:47is the start of the process.Even just sending a text message?That is

1:57:47 > 1:57:52just the start. I want to say to this person, that has not left their

1:57:52 > 1:58:00name, if you contact the action line, the BBC action line, they will

1:58:00 > 1:58:08put you in the right direction. They will be able to help you.Victoria,

1:58:08 > 1:58:14I was just going to say, from my point of view, I want to thank the

1:58:14 > 1:58:17members of the public, and all of the support that has been given to

1:58:17 > 1:58:25all of us throughout the 15 months. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank

1:58:25 > 1:58:30you for all of your messages. Have a good day, we are