0:00:16 > 0:00:18Hello, and welcome to Wednesday in Parliament.
0:00:18 > 0:00:23The main news from Westminster: The Prime Minister bows to demands
0:00:23 > 0:00:27for a policy document on Brexit.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29I can confirm to the house that our plan will be set
0:00:29 > 0:00:31out in a white paper.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33The Labour leader is worried what the Government has
0:00:33 > 0:00:35in mind for Brexit Britain.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39The Prime Minister, Mr Speaker, is threatening the EU that
0:00:39 > 0:00:42unless they give in to her demands she will turn Britain into a bargain
0:00:42 > 0:00:48basement tax haven off the coast of Europe.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Also on the programme: Rousing words from the Chief
0:00:50 > 0:00:55Minister of Gibraltar.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58My blood is red but I am red, white and blue inside out,
0:00:58 > 0:00:59and so is that rock,
0:00:59 > 0:01:01and we will never ever countenance changing that.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03APPLAUSE.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05That was...
0:01:05 > 0:01:06That was a most passionate answer.
0:01:06 > 0:01:07Come and see for yourself.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12An eloquent answer.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15But first, when the Brexit Secretary David Davis came to the Commons
0:01:15 > 0:01:17on Tuesday after the Government lost its case in the Supreme Court,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20MPs from all parties called for a white paper setting out
0:01:20 > 0:01:26a strategy for Brexit.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29David Davis batted away their requests, pointing to a speech
0:01:29 > 0:01:30the Prime Minister made last week.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Well, it looks as if, in just one day, there's
0:01:32 > 0:01:34been a change of heart.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37The Prime Minister laid out a clear and bold plan for Brexit
0:01:37 > 0:01:38in her speech last week.
0:01:38 > 0:01:42Honourable members, honourable members quite
0:01:42 > 0:01:47rightly want an opportunity to scrutinise that plan.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51Does the Prime Minister agree that the best way of facilitating
0:01:51 > 0:01:54that scrutiny would be a government White Paper laying out our vision
0:01:54 > 0:01:57for a global Britain based on free trade in goods and services,
0:01:57 > 0:02:07that will be to the benefit of us and other European countries.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Prime Minister.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13My honourable friend raises the question
0:02:13 > 0:02:16of parliamentary scrutiny.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20I have been clear, as have senior ministers, that we will ensure that
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Parliament has every opportunity to provide that scrutiny on this
0:02:23 > 0:02:25issue as we go through this process.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28But I recognise, I set out that bold plan for a global Britain last week
0:02:28 > 0:02:32and I recognise there is an appetite in this house to see that plan set
0:02:32 > 0:02:33out in a White Paper.
0:02:33 > 0:02:34My honourable friend's question
0:02:34 > 0:02:37and the question from my honourable friend the member for Broxtowe last
0:02:37 > 0:02:42week on the same vein, and I can confirm to the house
0:02:42 > 0:02:45that our plan will be set out in a White Paper
0:02:45 > 0:02:46published this month.
0:02:46 > 0:02:54The Prime Minister has wasted 80 days between the time
0:02:54 > 0:03:01of the original judgment and the appeal, and has now
0:03:01 > 0:03:03finally admitted today, after pressure from all sides,
0:03:03 > 0:03:05that there is going to be a White Paper.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Could we know when this White Paper is going to be available to us?
0:03:09 > 0:03:14And why it has taken so long to get it?
0:03:14 > 0:03:21Prime Minister.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23Can I say to the right honourable gentleman,
0:03:23 > 0:03:25he asked for debates, I was very clear there would always
0:03:25 > 0:03:28be debates in this house, and there have been and will
0:03:28 > 0:03:31continue to be.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33He asked for votes, there have been votes in this house.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35The house voted overwhelmingly for the government to trigger
0:03:35 > 0:03:40Article 50 before the end of March this year.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43He asked for a plan, I set out, as my honourable friend
0:03:43 > 0:03:45for Croydon South said, a clear plan for a bold
0:03:45 > 0:03:49future for Britain.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52He asked for it, he and others asked for a White Paper,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56I have been clear there will be a White Paper.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00But what I am also clear about is that the right honourable
0:04:00 > 0:04:03gentleman always asks about process, about the means to the end.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05I and this government are focusing on the outcomes,
0:04:05 > 0:04:09we are focusing on a truly global Britain, building a stronger
0:04:09 > 0:04:12future for this country, the right deal for Britain
0:04:12 > 0:04:17and Britain out of the European Union.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19Jeremy Corbyn was critical of the Prime Minister's
0:04:19 > 0:04:22negotiating stance.
0:04:22 > 0:04:31The Prime Minister, Mr Speaker, is threatening the EU that
0:04:31 > 0:04:34unless they give in to her demands she will turn Britain into
0:04:34 > 0:04:38a bargain basement tax haven off the coast of Europe.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40Well, Mr Speaker, we, on this side of the house,
0:04:40 > 0:04:45are very well aware of the consequences that would have,
0:04:45 > 0:04:47the damage it would do two jobs and living standards
0:04:47 > 0:04:49and our public services.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51Is she now going to rule out the bargain basement threat
0:04:51 > 0:04:56that was in her speech at Lancaster House?
0:04:56 > 0:04:57Prime Minister.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00I expect us to get a good deal for trading relationships
0:05:00 > 0:05:03with the European Union but what I am also clear
0:05:03 > 0:05:06about is that this government will not sign up to a bad deal
0:05:06 > 0:05:07for the United Kingdom.
0:05:07 > 0:05:13And, as to the threats that the right honourable gentleman
0:05:13 > 0:05:16claims about what might happen, and he often talks about this,
0:05:16 > 0:05:22uses those phrases and talks about workers' rights,
0:05:22 > 0:05:25perhaps he should listen to his former colleague in this house,
0:05:25 > 0:05:27the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who has today said,
0:05:27 > 0:05:31"To give credit to the government, I don't think they want to weaken
0:05:31 > 0:05:34"workers' rights," and goes on to say, "I have seen no evidence
0:05:34 > 0:05:36"from the conversations I have had with senior members
0:05:36 > 0:05:38"of the government that that is the aspiration
0:05:38 > 0:05:41"or their intention or something they want to do, which is good."
0:05:41 > 0:05:43As usual with Labour, the right hand is not
0:05:43 > 0:05:48talking to the far left.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50The Prime Minister is heading off to the United States on Friday
0:05:50 > 0:05:53to meet the President, Donald Trump.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56She's one of the first foreign leaders to meet the new president.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59On the agenda are discussions about trade deals and security.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02The Prime Minister insists she will not be afraid
0:06:02 > 0:06:04to speak her mind.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07I am pleased that I am able to meet President Trump so early
0:06:07 > 0:06:08in his administration.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11That is a sign of the strength of the special relationship
0:06:11 > 0:06:16between United Kingdom and the United States of America,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20a special relationship on which he and I intend to build.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23But can I also say to the Leader of the Opposition, I am not afraid
0:06:23 > 0:06:28to speak frankly to a president of the United States.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32I am able to do that because we have that special relationship,
0:06:32 > 0:06:35a special relationship that he would never have
0:06:35 > 0:06:39with United States.
0:06:39 > 0:06:40Jeremy Corbyn.
0:06:40 > 0:06:45Mr Speaker, we would never allow Britain to be sold off on the cheap.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48How confident is she of getting a good deal for global Britain
0:06:48 > 0:06:52from a president who wants to put America first, buy American,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55and build a wall between his country and Mexico?
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Yesterday the government lost in the Supreme Court and today
0:06:59 > 0:07:09we have a very welcome U-turn on a White Paper in regards
0:07:10 > 0:07:12to Brexit so, in the spirit of progress for Parliament,
0:07:12 > 0:07:14in advance of meeting President Trump, will
0:07:14 > 0:07:16the Prime Minister tell Parliament what she wants to achieve
0:07:16 > 0:07:18in a UK/US trade deal?
0:07:18 > 0:07:25Well, it is very simple, we want to achieve an arrangement
0:07:25 > 0:07:27that ensures that the interests of the United Kingdom
0:07:27 > 0:07:30are there, are put first, and that is what I will be doing,
0:07:30 > 0:07:32and we see a trade arrangement with the United States,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36as we will be looking for with other parts of the world that
0:07:36 > 0:07:38can increase our trade, bring prosperity, bring growth
0:07:38 > 0:07:41to the United Kingdom, and then my aim in this
0:07:41 > 0:07:43government is to ensure that
0:07:43 > 0:07:45that economy works for everyone in every part of the United Kingdom.
0:07:45 > 0:07:46Ed Miliband.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48Britain...
0:07:48 > 0:07:50It brings...
0:07:50 > 0:07:53CHEERING.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56The right honourable gentleman never knew he was quite that popular!
0:07:56 > 0:07:57SHOUTING.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59Ed Miliband.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03I was going to say, Mr Speaker, it brings back memories actually.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06Can I say to the Prime Minister that as the first foreign leader
0:08:06 > 0:08:08to meet President Trump, she carries a huge responsibility
0:08:08 > 0:08:11on behalf of not just this country, but the whole international
0:08:11 > 0:08:13community in the tone that she sets.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17Can I ask her to reassure us that she will say to the president
0:08:17 > 0:08:19that he must abide by, and not withdraw from,
0:08:19 > 0:08:21the Paris climate change treaty.
0:08:21 > 0:08:29In case it is helpful, can she offer the services of UK
0:08:29 > 0:08:32scientists to convince the president that climate change is not a hoax
0:08:32 > 0:08:34invented by the Chinese.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Prime Minister.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Well, I recognise the role that the right honourable gentleman
0:08:40 > 0:08:47has played in looking at this issue of climate change and I hope
0:08:47 > 0:08:55he recognises the commitment that this government has shown
0:08:55 > 0:08:58to this issue of climate change, with the legislation
0:08:58 > 0:09:00we have put through, and the changes that we have brought
0:09:00 > 0:09:03about in terms of the energy sector and the uses of different forms
0:09:03 > 0:09:04of energy.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06The American, the Obama Administration obviously signed up
0:09:06 > 0:09:09to the Paris climate change agreement and we have now
0:09:09 > 0:09:12done that and I would hope that all parties would continue to ensure
0:09:12 > 0:09:14that that climate change agreement is put into practice.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16Gibraltar's Chief Minister has been speaking passionately to MPs
0:09:16 > 0:09:18about the historic links between the people of
0:09:18 > 0:09:20Gibraltar and the UK.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Fabian Picardo was giving evidence to the committee
0:09:23 > 0:09:27on exiting the European Union.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32Gibraltar voted to remain in the EU because of concerns,
0:09:32 > 0:09:36the Chief Minister said, about Spain's intentions.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38He was asked about the border between the British overseas
0:09:38 > 0:09:40territory, which is not a member of the Customs Union,
0:09:40 > 0:09:41and Spain, which is.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45Gibraltar has always had what I see now described as a hard frontier,
0:09:45 > 0:09:47in the context of potential future relationships with the UK
0:09:47 > 0:09:49and the European Union, but that does not mean that
0:09:49 > 0:09:50goods don't flow into Gibraltar.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52They take a little longer.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55Those who are involved in the logistics of getting goods
0:09:55 > 0:09:58into Gibraltar know that they need to allow two or three hours
0:09:58 > 0:10:03for their vehicles to come through the commercial gates.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06They will be inspected, there will be documentation
0:10:06 > 0:10:09to prepare but if you get into the rhythm of things,
0:10:09 > 0:10:12this can be quite easy.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16Although of course there are days, if, you know, Gibraltar football
0:10:16 > 0:10:21team has scored a goal and been allowed into Uefa, for example,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24that we might find that the frontier for some reason doesn't work
0:10:24 > 0:10:30as well as it might, so this is more about goodwill than
0:10:30 > 0:10:31it is about the rules necessarily.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34So, would I be correct in understanding that
0:10:34 > 0:10:40difficulties occur at the border when politicians, the Spanish,
0:10:40 > 0:10:42choose to be difficult, is that correct?
0:10:42 > 0:10:47That would be absolutely the way that the people of Gibraltar have
0:10:47 > 0:10:50traditionally understood it for the past 35 years
0:10:50 > 0:10:52since the border opened.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55But if the Spanish choose to be co-operative, then the border
0:10:55 > 0:10:56operates in a fairly fluid fashion.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58In an absolutely fluid fashion that doesn't interfere
0:10:58 > 0:11:00with anybody's lives, that enables people to move
0:11:00 > 0:11:03across the frontier, for goods to move across that
0:11:03 > 0:11:11frontier and without more control than is necessary.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14During the two hours of questioning, the Chief Minister paid tribute
0:11:14 > 0:11:16to the Conservative former Prime Minister, Sir John Major,
0:11:16 > 0:11:19calling him a champion of the rights of the people of Gibraltar.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21Thank you for what you said about the former Prime Minister,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24it's so easy to airbrush people when they have gone
0:11:24 > 0:11:26and it is rather nice that you say what you do.
0:11:26 > 0:11:27Thank you very much.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30I soon expect to be discarded as well and I hope that people
0:11:30 > 0:11:34are kind to me about what I have done, but that is political life.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36It is indeed, but there's always a chance of revival.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41So I wouldn't worry too much about that.
0:11:41 > 0:11:42The former Tory Cabinet Minister Michael Gove joining
0:11:42 > 0:11:45in the laughter there.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47And later there was applause when the Chief Minister defended
0:11:47 > 0:11:50the right of Gibraltarians to British citizenship.
0:11:50 > 0:11:51So why should we change?
0:11:51 > 0:11:54We are born British and that rock is red, white and blue for us.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56There is nothing else that we have known.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58The system of government that we know, the system
0:11:58 > 0:12:01of education that we know, the make up of my understanding
0:12:01 > 0:12:02of the world is British.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04How can I suddenly now do something else?
0:12:04 > 0:12:09I can speak fluent conversational Spanish but I don't speak
0:12:09 > 0:12:12professional or political Spanish in the way that I might be expected
0:12:12 > 0:12:14to should I need to navigate the waters of the Spanish system.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16You look at the Spanish political system today,
0:12:16 > 0:12:20it doesn't have much to commend it to the people of the world.
0:12:20 > 0:12:21I mean, the British system, we criticise
0:12:21 > 0:12:24ourselves so constantly, and so constructively,
0:12:24 > 0:12:28that we make it stronger, that's the system that we believe in.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31That is the rule of law that we believe in.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33The Supreme Court that ruled yesterday and that everybody
0:12:33 > 0:12:36respects the views of, that is what makes up
0:12:36 > 0:12:37the Gibraltarean.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41My blood is red, but I am red, white and blue inside out,
0:12:41 > 0:12:43and so is that rock, and we will never ever
0:12:43 > 0:12:46countenance changing that.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50APPLAUSE.
0:12:50 > 0:12:51That was...
0:12:51 > 0:12:53That was a most passionate answer.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Come and see for yourself.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57An eloquent answer.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00The Committee chair, Labour's Hilary Benn,
0:13:00 > 0:13:02speaking there after clapping and desk-banging - a very unusual
0:13:02 > 0:13:05sight at such a hearing.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07You're watching Wednesday in Parliament with me,
0:13:07 > 0:13:13Kristiina Cooper.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15Schools in every constituency are going to lose money,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Labour has warned.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21The party's Shadow Education Secretary, Angela Rayner,
0:13:21 > 0:13:24said that flew in the face of a promise made by the previous
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Prime Minister, David Cameron, before the general election
0:13:26 > 0:13:29in 2015.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32A pledge that was repeatedly made
0:13:32 > 0:13:36by the last Prime Minister - the one that actually
0:13:36 > 0:13:39fought an election - and he was very clear what it meant.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41He said, "I can tell you, with a Conservative government,
0:13:41 > 0:13:43"the amount of money following your child
0:13:43 > 0:13:46"into school will not be cut."
0:13:46 > 0:13:48There is one question that the Secretary of State
0:13:48 > 0:13:51has to answer today - will she keep her party's promise
0:13:51 > 0:13:54to the British people?
0:13:54 > 0:13:56The National Audit Office has told us their answer.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59They have revealed that, on the current spending settlement,
0:13:59 > 0:14:09there will be an 8% cut in pupil funding between 2015 and 2020.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12That was the same conclusion that was reached by the
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Institute of Fiscal Studies.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17This means that there will be schools in every region,
0:14:17 > 0:14:21every city, every town, and yes, every constituency,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24losing money because of this Government's failure to protect
0:14:24 > 0:14:26funding for our schools.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28I'll make some progress.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31So will the Secretary of State tell us whether she intends to keep
0:14:31 > 0:14:39that manifesto pledge?
0:14:39 > 0:14:42We want to see every child, with the same chance to do
0:14:42 > 0:14:45as well as they possibly can, no matter where they are growing up
0:14:45 > 0:14:48in our country, or indeed where they are starting from academically.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51And that's why, we have to make sure that resources going into the system
0:14:51 > 0:14:54reflect the high ambitions that we've got for every child,
0:14:54 > 0:14:56wherever they're growing up, and are distributed as well
0:14:56 > 0:14:57to that effect.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00And because of this Government's economic policy that has seen jobs
0:15:00 > 0:15:04and growth and careful management of public finances,
0:15:04 > 0:15:07that's how we've been able to protect the core schools budget
0:15:07 > 0:15:09in real terms over the course of this Parliament.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13In fact, the investment in our core schools is now
0:15:13 > 0:15:17the largest ever on record, totalling over 40%.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20I give way.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23David Cameron's promise was that the funding
0:15:23 > 0:15:27per pupil would be protected, it isn't being, as we've heard.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29In my constituency, because of the formula,
0:15:29 > 0:15:31it's being reduced further, per pupil.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Why is David Cameron's promise being broken?
0:15:34 > 0:15:40It's not, we're protecting also the per-pupil funding as well.
0:15:40 > 0:15:46We know that, in relation to making sure funding is fairly
0:15:46 > 0:15:48apportioned between schools, it's time that we now look
0:15:48 > 0:15:51at the school funding formula to make sure we bring one
0:15:51 > 0:15:57in that is rectifying the current system, that is unfair and outdated,
0:15:57 > 0:16:01as the right honourable member for Wokingham set out.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05At the moment, the situation all schools face is that funding
0:16:05 > 0:16:08isn't being distributed evenly across our country, and doesn't take
0:16:09 > 0:16:11into account pupil needs.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14We've heard a few complaints from the House of Lords
0:16:14 > 0:16:16about the problems faced by travellers on Southern Rail,
0:16:16 > 0:16:19which has been subject to months of delays and industrial action.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24Well, one peer has come up with a novel solution -
0:16:24 > 0:16:26replacing it with a roadway for driverless vehicles.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30He wondered if the Government would commission a feasibility study?
0:16:30 > 0:16:32My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing
0:16:32 > 0:16:36in my name on the order paper.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40My Lord, we have no current plans to commission such a study.
0:16:40 > 0:16:41However...
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Shame, shame!
0:16:43 > 0:16:44LAUGHTER
0:16:44 > 0:16:47However, we are investing over ?100 million in research
0:16:47 > 0:16:50and development into connected and autonomous vehicles,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54and a further ?100 million into testing infrastructure.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56We have commenced a programme of regulatory reforms that will keep
0:16:56 > 0:17:00pace with technology as it comes to market.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03And we continue to invest in our national rail infrastructure
0:17:03 > 0:17:05through transformative projects like Thameslink
0:17:05 > 0:17:09and Crossrail, to meet ever-increasing passenger demand.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12My Lords, I'm very grateful to my noble friend for the access
0:17:12 > 0:17:14he gave me to Department for Transport
0:17:15 > 0:17:17officials and contractors.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19And congratulate him on the progress being made
0:17:19 > 0:17:23by his autonomous vehicle projects.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27Would my noble friend not agree that the successful pilot currently
0:17:27 > 0:17:31underway at Heathrow demonstrates the potential of autonomous
0:17:31 > 0:17:37vehicles to serve on a branch line, such as Lewes to Seaford?
0:17:37 > 0:17:39And if we demonstrate success on that line,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43it is technology that would suit a very well the peripheral parts
0:17:43 > 0:17:45of the Southern network.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48And if we succeed at that, we shall have an industry
0:17:48 > 0:17:52which would be in a great position in an industry with worldwide
0:17:52 > 0:17:55applications which is just what we're trying to do
0:17:55 > 0:18:00with the industrial strategy?
0:18:00 > 0:18:05My Lords, we, of course, welcome the cutting-edge nature
0:18:05 > 0:18:07of transport innovation in the rail sector.
0:18:07 > 0:18:12In particular, my noble friend talked about the new systems
0:18:12 > 0:18:15and new operations at Heathrow in terms of the pods
0:18:15 > 0:18:16which are being used.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20And certainly, there are other parts of the network structures,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23such as the DLR, and the new rolling stock which will be coming online
0:18:23 > 0:18:27from Siemens on Thameslink, there will be a use of technology
0:18:27 > 0:18:30and autonomous vehicles in what I believe to be
0:18:30 > 0:18:33a controlled environment.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36He mentioned about further innovations in terms
0:18:36 > 0:18:37of the wider network.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40I think it's important to recognise that we need to see how technology
0:18:40 > 0:18:46can be adapted on existing systems.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49The wisdom of closing down 100 local tax offices and creating
0:18:49 > 0:18:51new regional hubs has been questioned by a Commons committee.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs is reducing its service from
0:18:54 > 0:18:59177 offices around the country to 13 offices in regional cities,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02as well as four specialist centres.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Officials say the changes could save the taxpayer
0:19:05 > 0:19:07around ?500 million.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10But at the Public Accounts Committee, one MP doubted that
0:19:10 > 0:19:12figure would be achieved.
0:19:12 > 0:19:17Originally, it was assumed there would be efficiency savings
0:19:17 > 0:19:21of around ?500 million, and already that has
0:19:21 > 0:19:25reduced to 212 million.
0:19:25 > 0:19:31So this looks to me, it bears all the hallmarks,
0:19:31 > 0:19:34of one of those cases where ministers say,
0:19:34 > 0:19:36we need some savings, they're provided, and then it turns
0:19:36 > 0:19:38out they're slightly illusory.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42Do you believe that the 212 million savings will be achieved,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45or will this all just disappear to zero at the end of the day?
0:19:45 > 0:19:47No, I don't believe it will be 200 million,
0:19:47 > 0:19:56I believe it will be significantly more than that.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58You are seeing this project, well before the main
0:19:58 > 0:20:01business case is approved, and there are advantages to that.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03Clearly, because you want to be involved early.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06But also what you are going to see is a bit of fluidity,
0:20:06 > 0:20:07therefore, in the data.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10We would expect our current estimate of the savings to be the other
0:20:10 > 0:20:12side of 300 million, which is a very long
0:20:12 > 0:20:13answer to your question.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16So it started off at 500 million, then it became 212 million,
0:20:16 > 0:20:18and now you're saying it'll be over 300 million?
0:20:18 > 0:20:19Yes.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Ultimately, what we'll have to do is put that all together
0:20:22 > 0:20:24in a business case to go to the Chief Secretary
0:20:24 > 0:20:25by the end of March.
0:20:25 > 0:20:30So you'll have some further data there.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32I understand 40,000 HMRC staff will have to move office.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Do you think that might be too much too quickly?
0:20:36 > 0:20:39It's actually spread over quite a long period of time.
0:20:39 > 0:20:40Spread over five years.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42And for the vast majority of the 38,000 people
0:20:42 > 0:20:45who will be needed to move, they're not moving that far.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48As the report says, the average is 18 miles.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51Let's say you have someone in your, I think I'm right in saying
0:20:51 > 0:20:57you have an office in St Ives or Redruth, in Cornwall
0:20:57 > 0:20:59who has to move to Bristol, which is a long way.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01Or indeed Inverness to Edinburgh.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03Let's say you have some expertise in that office,
0:21:03 > 0:21:06is there a risk to corporate memory with this kind of programme?
0:21:06 > 0:21:07Yes.
0:21:07 > 0:21:08How do you manage that?
0:21:08 > 0:21:16We ask people to give us that corporate memory,
0:21:16 > 0:21:18but it's definitely something we have to solve.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20If you'd been working in Redruth for 32 years,
0:21:20 > 0:21:22and you're not going to go to Bristol.
0:21:22 > 0:21:32Meanwhile, we're going to recruit more people in Bristol.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39We've got to find some way in which the knowledge that you've
0:21:39 > 0:21:42built up about how we've worked over the years can be
0:21:42 > 0:21:44translated into systems, or the wisdom of giving
0:21:44 > 0:21:45it to other people.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48But at the moment, we do not have a solution that I'm
0:21:48 > 0:21:49aware of for that risk.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51We end with a piece of parliamentary housekeeping that's
0:21:51 > 0:21:52starting to worry some MPs.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54How to carry out the renovation work
0:21:54 > 0:21:56that the Palace of Westminster so badly needs?
0:21:56 > 0:21:58There are a host of problems in the building, which is
0:21:59 > 0:22:00a World Heritage site.
0:22:00 > 0:22:01The plumbing fails regularly, causing leaks that
0:22:01 > 0:22:02damage the interiors.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05And the electrical system is faulty, increasing the likelihood of fires.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07And, for good measure, there's a lot of asbestos
0:22:07 > 0:22:08that needs removing.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11There are strongly-held views on whether MPs should move out
0:22:11 > 0:22:13or stay while the work is carried out.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Labour's Chris Bryant says the best - and cheapest -
0:22:16 > 0:22:18option is for everyone to leave.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22Many people think it's falling down, it's not falling down.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24Though the clock tower does incline a little.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27But the mechanical and electrical engineering systems that keep
0:22:27 > 0:22:32the place lit, heated, cooled, drained and dry are already
0:22:32 > 0:22:35well past their use by date.
0:22:35 > 0:22:45And the risk of catastrophic failure such as a fire or flood rises
0:22:47 > 0:22:49exponentially every five years that we delay.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52We should be in absolutely no doubt there will be a fire.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54There was a far a fortnight ago, there are regularly fires.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57And people patrol the building 24 hours a day to make sure
0:22:57 > 0:22:58we catch these fires.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Chris Bryant was on a parliamentary committee set up to
0:23:01 > 0:23:02examine the options.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04In a report published last September, it recommended that
0:23:04 > 0:23:05everyone should move out.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09Today's MPs and peers hold this building in trust.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11It's not ours, we hold it in trust.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15Our predecessors got it hideously wrong in the 19th century,
0:23:15 > 0:23:18they kept on delaying necessary work, and that delay made
0:23:18 > 0:23:26the fire in 1834 not only possible, but inevitable.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28And so we lost the Painted Chamber, St Stevens' Chapel,
0:23:28 > 0:23:32and what was reputedly the most beautiful set of medieval
0:23:32 > 0:23:33buildings in the world.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36And then, they insisted on staying on-site whilst the new building
0:23:36 > 0:23:38was built around them and constantly complained
0:23:38 > 0:23:40about the noise and the design.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44The result was long delays and a massive budget overrun.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46But Sir Edward Leigh thinks parliamentarians should retain
0:23:46 > 0:23:49a presence in the Palace of Westminster.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53As during the Second World War, the House of Commons debating
0:23:53 > 0:23:56chamber should, at all times, retain a presence in
0:23:56 > 0:23:58the old Palace of Westminster.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00Now, it's known, and this was briefly alluded
0:24:00 > 0:24:05to by the gentleman, there is an alternative, expert,
0:24:05 > 0:24:06independent point of view.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10That, instead of building what I would deem to be a folly
0:24:10 > 0:24:13costing ?85 million, of a replica chamber
0:24:13 > 0:24:16in the courtyard of Richmond House,
0:24:16 > 0:24:21that we should, as in the war, use the House of Lords chamber.
0:24:21 > 0:24:27We've reached a point where make do and mend is simply not an option.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31That approach has already been taken, and it has led
0:24:31 > 0:24:37to decades of underinvestment, which we are now forced to confront.
0:24:37 > 0:24:43Much of our infrastructure is well past - in some cases decades past -
0:24:43 > 0:24:48its life expectancy, its planned working life.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51The Government has undertaken to provide time for a full debate
0:24:51 > 0:24:54and a vote in due course on the committee's report.
0:24:54 > 0:24:55LAUGHTER
0:24:55 > 0:24:58Time...
0:24:58 > 0:25:02In due course, as the honourable gentleman knows.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04Time is always at a premium.
0:25:04 > 0:25:09And I know he will recollect that from his own duties in this place.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Time is always at a premium for business managers,
0:25:11 > 0:25:17and particularly so, at the moment, with developments.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21It's all very well, but, to be honest, due course is the kind
0:25:21 > 0:25:22of phrase that weasels use.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25Because it means you don't really intend to do it
0:25:25 > 0:25:31in any expeditious way.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33Responding to that accusation of weasel words, the Minister
0:25:33 > 0:25:35found another phrase - promising that the Commons
0:25:35 > 0:25:37would consider the matter "as soon as possible".
0:25:37 > 0:25:38Well, that's it for now.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41Do join me at the same time tomorrow for another round up
0:25:41 > 0:25:42of the news from Westminster.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45Until then, from me, Kristiina Cooper, goodbye!