:57:18. > :57:23.In the short to medium term, Wales is right to take advantage of UK
:57:24. > :57:27.policy to maximise the potential of the two cities deals and the North
:57:28. > :57:31.Wales growth deal. It's a glorious opportunity to show how Governments
:57:32. > :57:35.and local authorities have different political stripes can work with
:57:36. > :57:39.common purpose. If local squabbling or uninspired ambition or lack of
:57:40. > :57:42.confidence means these golden opportunities are squandered, it
:57:43. > :57:48.makes a mockery of devolution and any claim we have to be big thinkers
:57:49. > :57:53.in a small country. In that short to medium term, we need to keep eyes on
:57:54. > :57:57.inequity in Wales and remember that the welcome focus on the city teal
:57:58. > :58:01.in my region, it's not to my constituents' advantage if the rural
:58:02. > :58:16.neighbours conclude they can't live on that and head south in droves.
:58:17. > :58:23.The city deal will prompt that. I'm pleased that the idea is gaining
:58:24. > :58:26.traction, as Paul Davies's long-standing campaign is gaining
:58:27. > :58:30.traction. . It's with that spirit of common purpose that I say how
:58:31. > :58:34.dismayed I am to see the Government's amendments regarding
:58:35. > :58:38.the Severn Bridge tolls. I'm pleased to say Jane Bryant said she welcomed
:58:39. > :58:42.the Prime Minister's commitment on it because our motion doesn't claim
:58:43. > :58:46.the Prime Minister has the sole intellectual property to the idea of
:58:47. > :58:50.the toll free Severn Bridge. It's inviting members simply to welcome
:58:51. > :58:53.her commitment to doing this, a commitment coming from someone
:58:54. > :58:57.who'll actually be in a position to scrap those tolls. By deleting that
:58:58. > :59:02.point, Welsh Government does not welcome a commitment that can be
:59:03. > :59:05.delivered by a UK Government for the benefit of Wales, preferring instead
:59:06. > :59:08.to have a sulk because they didn't get a shout out. You even missed the
:59:09. > :59:13.opportunity to mention Jeremy Corbyn's take on the tolls so I'm
:59:14. > :59:21.assuming you don't either see him in a position to do that or you can't
:59:22. > :59:30.bear the thought that it's he that seeks a position to do it. The Welsh
:59:31. > :59:38.Conservatives are completely committed to the Swansea lagoon.
:59:39. > :59:42.Arguments across the range amidst catalyst effect and clean energy for
:59:43. > :59:46.catalyst effects for economic regeneration, to its catalyst effect
:59:47. > :59:51.on our reputation in the eyes of the world, this is absolutely a
:59:52. > :59:56.no-brainer. Even so, we cannot conveniently ditch the hours of
:59:57. > :00:00.argument made by all parties and both Governments dedicated to
:00:01. > :00:06.tackling fuel poverty, lowering energy costs for industry and
:00:07. > :00:10.capping energy prices which have been balanced with arguments
:00:11. > :00:14.demonstrating a growth in clean air and energy supply. That balance is
:00:15. > :00:19.difficult to manage, difficult to find and takes careful dealings with
:00:20. > :00:24.it from a responsible Government. The last thing the lagoon needs now
:00:25. > :00:28.is Corbyn-omics, diving in, saying give us the lagoon at any cost is
:00:29. > :00:33.giving up, it's saying that neither the company nor the UK Government
:00:34. > :00:37.nor the UK Government has more to give on this to get us nearer that
:00:38. > :00:40.delicate balance and that balance that means a positive decision on
:00:41. > :00:44.funding. Perhaps there was probably a bit more that the Welsh Government
:00:45. > :00:48.could have helped with, maybe something like cheaper finance
:00:49. > :00:52.through Welsh Government streams rather than 100% private investment,
:00:53. > :00:57.I genuinely don't know. Where the Welsh Government can act is to
:00:58. > :01:01.ensure that the timeline for granting licences is aligned for the
:01:02. > :01:06.time line for major projects for which the licences are needed. I've
:01:07. > :01:09.only got 20 seconds, sorry, David. The slow progress in London has
:01:10. > :01:15.disguised a serious delay and I don't think any of us would be proud
:01:16. > :01:19.if devolved responsibilities were the sole reason that the lagoon
:01:20. > :01:25.would be held back. I don't think marine licences should be what we
:01:26. > :01:30.are talking about down the line. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for
:01:31. > :01:34.economy and infrastructure. Can I start by thanking members across the
:01:35. > :01:39.chamber for their contributions and giving me an opportunity to respond
:01:40. > :01:41.to this debate. As Government, we are absolutely determined to spread
:01:42. > :01:44.prosperity, growth and opportunity prosperity, growth and opportunity
:01:45. > :01:49.across Wales to generate prosperity across Wales to generate prosperity
:01:50. > :01:54.for all. That is the foundation upon which the work to refresh our
:01:55. > :02:00.economic strategy and develop the economy of each region is to be
:02:01. > :02:03.based. The Severn tolls given their strategic importance to Wales is
:02:04. > :02:08.very much part of that thinking. We've been in regular discussions
:02:09. > :02:12.with the UK Government about the tolls to ensure that future
:02:13. > :02:18.arrangements represent the best deal for Wales. We've made it clear on
:02:19. > :02:24.many occasions that the tolls on the bridge are an unfair tax on our
:02:25. > :02:29.people and on our businesses. It's a barrier to business activity across
:02:30. > :02:33.the bridge, hampering Welsh growth and acting as a deterrent to inward
:02:34. > :02:38.investment as members have identified. In particular, the tolls
:02:39. > :02:42.adversely affect small businesses looking to operate in the south-west
:02:43. > :02:47.of England, as well as those engaged in the tourism, the logistics and
:02:48. > :02:54.transport sectors which rely heavily on Severn crossings links for their
:02:55. > :02:58.businesses. A number of member identified are 2012 study, the one
:02:59. > :03:04.we commissioned which concluded that removing the tolls would increase
:03:05. > :03:11.the GVA of South Wales by ?107 million. Although GVA has grown
:03:12. > :03:15.faster in Wales and across the UK as an average in recent times, we
:03:16. > :03:19.believe that the increase in GVA presented by the removal of the
:03:20. > :03:25.tolls would offer a huge boost to the regional economy. I would agree
:03:26. > :03:30.with Mark as well that the sum could be in excess of ?107 million and
:03:31. > :03:35.also welcome his assertion that the economy today is now stronger along
:03:36. > :03:38.the M4 and that there's a return in confidence to South Wales. That of
:03:39. > :03:44.course thanks to this Welsh Labour Government. Despite the
:03:45. > :03:49.Conservative's support at Westminster now for abolishing the
:03:50. > :03:53.tolls, the last time we debated the Severn crossings here in the
:03:54. > :04:02.chamber, the UK Government's option to improving the tolls was clear.
:04:03. > :04:05.I'm glad to see the weak and wobbly position adopted by the Prime
:04:06. > :04:10.Minister has finally come around to a better position, one that is being
:04:11. > :04:18.championed by this Welsh Labour Government over many, many years.
:04:19. > :04:21.Now, you were saying this has been championed over many, many years. I
:04:22. > :04:27.asked the First Minister, he said it had been championed since the Labour
:04:28. > :04:32.manifesto in 2016, prior to that, he suggested keeping the tolls to fund
:04:33. > :04:35.the wealth rate. Can I thank my right honourable friend for taking a
:04:36. > :04:40.consistent position on this matter himself. He's not taken such a
:04:41. > :04:44.consistent position on which political party he should be a
:04:45. > :04:48.member of but on this issue he's remained very consistent indeed.
:04:49. > :04:52.Turning to our priorities for North Wales, I should say I was very
:04:53. > :04:56.pleased to be able to attend earlier today the inaugural meeting of the
:04:57. > :05:03.North Wales group on cross border issues chaired by my colleague,
:05:04. > :05:08.Hannah Blyt Hill n where we discussed several important matters
:05:09. > :05:12.that will be faced by the region and that we must face in the assembly in
:05:13. > :05:16.years to come. It's my view and I share the view of Russell George in
:05:17. > :05:21.his assertion of the potential of the cross border economy, the North
:05:22. > :05:25.Wales's growth deal bid must be dove-tailed with the growth deal
:05:26. > :05:29.that is emerging on the English side of the border through the Cheshire
:05:30. > :05:34.and Warrington elect. They must be complimentary and must also seek to
:05:35. > :05:40.build on the existing capabilities on the cross border area of the
:05:41. > :05:45.mercy Dee and North Wales region. It's absolutely essential that the
:05:46. > :05:48.case for a North Wales growth deal is maintained, one that does he
:05:49. > :05:52.flect the cross border nature of the economy in terms of transport alone,
:05:53. > :05:55.and transport will be a critical element of the growth deal, I'm in
:05:56. > :06:00.no doubt, this Welsh Labour Government's already committed to
:06:01. > :06:05.spending more than ?200 million on resolving the Deeside corridor which
:06:06. > :06:11.of course is crucial, as Mark identified, the deside area as being
:06:12. > :06:15.a primary engine for the Welsh economy -- Deeside. That A 494 is
:06:16. > :06:20.critical and requires upgrading and I'm very pleased to be able to be
:06:21. > :06:27.consulting with the public tonne two proposals that we have developed.
:06:28. > :06:29.The A494 and also the A 55. We are looking at investing tens of
:06:30. > :06:36.millions in rail infrastructure, although the UK Government is
:06:37. > :06:40.responsible for that, to enhance the north-east Wales capacity. Looking
:06:41. > :06:44.at investing considerable sums in resolving pinch points in the road
:06:45. > :06:48.network and taking forward the important third crossing for the
:06:49. > :06:52.Menai. Of course one of the biggest single boosts that could be give
:06:53. > :06:56.tonne the economy of North Wales would be the elect riflecation of
:06:57. > :07:04.the North Wales main line but I fear that that has not yet been promised
:07:05. > :07:14.by UK Government, certainly not in the near future -- eelectrification.
:07:15. > :07:20.North south links are crucial to the economy. Mid-Wales makes a vital
:07:21. > :07:26.contribution to the culture and economy of Wales and I also believe
:07:27. > :07:32.that whilst the north south links, significant indeed, so too are east,
:07:33. > :07:35.west ties and I see three primary arks of prosperity emerging for
:07:36. > :07:40.Wales, one that crosses North Wales, one that crosses mid and west Wales
:07:41. > :07:44.and a third that spans South Wales, all three potentially benefitting
:07:45. > :07:52.from cross border collaboration and ties. I'm very keen in terms of
:07:53. > :07:56.supporting mid-Wales to look at how we can turbo-charge the activities
:07:57. > :08:01.of growing mid-Wales which is an important partnership and certainly
:08:02. > :08:06.in so far as a growth deal for mid-Wales is concerned I'lled be
:08:07. > :08:10.keen to see what the UK Government, however June 8th pans out, what the
:08:11. > :08:13.UK Government actually looks at delivering as part of an expanded
:08:14. > :08:20.offer of growth deals, potentially for the UK. I'll take an
:08:21. > :08:23.intervention. I'm grateful. Particularly his emphasis on the
:08:24. > :08:29.whole of Wales, mid-Wales and north as well. If I could draw his
:08:30. > :08:34.attention back to south-west Wales, tolls need to be got rid of on the
:08:35. > :08:41.Severn bridge but there is a real issue, as we heard from the member
:08:42. > :08:46.from new Perth west with -- Newport west, with house prices and what is
:08:47. > :08:49.going on in Bristol and the greater south-west area, that actually
:08:50. > :08:53.wealth in your ark of prosperity end up travelling out of Wales and we
:08:54. > :08:56.end up being a commuter belt. I would be grateful to understand how
:08:57. > :08:59.the department is going to work with local authorities and businesses in
:09:00. > :09:03.particular to make sure that businesses locate here to drive
:09:04. > :09:10.wages up and we don't just become a dormitory. This is in part what I
:09:11. > :09:13.was going to come on to in my final point, the important structural
:09:14. > :09:18.element as part of the new economic strategy. We need to ensure that
:09:19. > :09:21.productivity increases, that our manufacturing base in particular is
:09:22. > :09:26.future proofed against automation and crucially in regard to avoiding
:09:27. > :09:30.dormitory communities that we raise skills levels of people of Wales so
:09:31. > :09:36.we can capture more of the work, more of the economic benefits of
:09:37. > :09:39.infrastructure investments, not just as a dormitory territory serving the
:09:40. > :09:45.south-west, but for the south-east of Wales and indeed the whole of the
:09:46. > :09:51.south of Wales. It's our keen intent to ensure that through a new place
:09:52. > :09:54.based approach, through development, working with leaders of the the city
:09:55. > :09:58.deals in the south and growth deals in the north and particularly a
:09:59. > :10:03.growth deal in mid-Wales, that we do move towards creating opportunities
:10:04. > :10:15.to grow wealth across Wales and deliver prosperity for all. I call
:10:16. > :10:19.for a reply to the debate. Thank you everybody who has spoken in this
:10:20. > :10:23.debate. Thank you to Russell George for opening this, by welcoming the
:10:24. > :10:29.economic boost to the Welsh economy being delivered by the UK
:10:30. > :10:33.Government's abolition of the Severn crossing tolls supposing that Wales
:10:34. > :10:39.is open for business -- showing that Wales is open for business and
:10:40. > :10:41.opening the need for North Wales and mid-Wales, showing that people not
:10:42. > :10:45.only look south to Government but in terms of their economic and social
:10:46. > :10:48.lives, they Look East for their cross border movements and also west
:10:49. > :10:56.to Ireland. We need to, as you said, cement
:10:57. > :11:02.North Wales as an sbrinic part of the cross border region linked up to
:11:03. > :11:08.the northern powerhouse. He said the Welsh Government was also devolved
:11:09. > :11:12.economic levers to mid-Wales. Di Lloyd supporting the abolition of
:11:13. > :11:15.the Severn crossing tolls and the development of devolution of powers
:11:16. > :11:20.to the Welsh regions, very heartening to hear that and shared
:11:21. > :11:24.his in-depth knowledge of British tolls across Britain. I suggest he
:11:25. > :11:28.writes more about that. I would be interested in reading about that. No
:11:29. > :11:35.tolls on Menai Bridge. But we do need the third Menai crossing,
:11:36. > :11:39.something that was referred to. It's nearly a decade since the Welsh
:11:40. > :11:41.Government commissioned a report on options for that which made
:11:42. > :11:48.recommendations. It's a shame we have had to wait this long for
:11:49. > :11:53.ground hog day to arrive. I hope the minister's aspiration of being a
:11:54. > :11:59.decision to move forward by 2021 is reached for all concerned.
:12:00. > :12:06.Dai Lloyd extolled the virtues of the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon as did
:12:07. > :12:12.many others, and emphasised the need to electrify the Valley lines and
:12:13. > :12:15.North Wales coastline, something Welsh Conservatives strongly
:12:16. > :12:19.support. Nick Ramsay referred again to the Prime Minister's decision to
:12:20. > :12:24.scrap tolls on the Severn Crossing is a game changer with exciting
:12:25. > :12:28.prospects for the good people and economy of Monmouthshire. He
:12:29. > :12:33.referred to the GBA figures in the South Wales valleys, part of the
:12:34. > :12:41.West Wales and valleys sub region which have had the lowest value of
:12:42. > :12:46.goods and services value produced across the 12 UK regions and nations
:12:47. > :12:51.for almost 20 years. For 19 years, the whole period of devolution. Even
:12:52. > :12:57.the most prosperous corner of North Wales in the north-east has seen the
:12:58. > :13:03.relative figure against the UK level fall from almost 100% of UK GVA to
:13:04. > :13:07.just 84%. He's emphasised the need for the worst government to work
:13:08. > :13:13.closely with the UK Government critical, the next UK Government is
:13:14. > :13:15.seen as a positive partner with the Welsh government, and by the Welsh
:13:16. > :13:18.government. Jane Bryant again government. Jane Bryant again
:13:19. > :13:24.emphasised the importance of the Severn Crossing in relation to
:13:25. > :13:29.Newport, another wonderful place not so far from here. I regret the
:13:30. > :13:33.partisan comments that followed, I won't respond to those but
:13:34. > :13:39.acknowledge we are in a general election period. The UK Government
:13:40. > :13:42.announced tolls in 1962, it is this UK Government which has announced
:13:43. > :13:48.it's going to scrap them. As she said this risks or the costs and
:13:49. > :13:52.benefits of attracting people from Bristol could have an impact on
:13:53. > :13:56.house prices and there is a need to support local young people onto the
:13:57. > :13:59.housing ladder here, especially given Wales had the largest cuts in
:14:00. > :14:08.affordable housing budgets after devolution in the UK. She referred
:14:09. > :14:12.to another U-turn but to my mind its strong leaders who listen and
:14:13. > :14:17.decide, it's weak leaders who ignore the facts and shoot the messenger.
:14:18. > :14:21.Sadly something we hear too often in certain other places. Neil Hamilton
:14:22. > :14:29.again welcomed Theresa May's announcement with a few added
:14:30. > :14:32.comments. As he said, political independence for Wales would be a
:14:33. > :14:38.disaster, as it would be for the rest of the UK. Mark Reckless
:14:39. > :14:42.pointed out a Conservative government in 1992 legislated to
:14:43. > :14:46.scrap the tolls following the return of the bridges to the public sector
:14:47. > :14:50.and the Conservative government was now delivering on that. He said this
:14:51. > :14:54.will add to the return of confidence along the M4 corridor strengthening
:14:55. > :14:59.links between South Wales, Bristol and London, and she referred to the
:15:00. > :15:02.sensitive and flexible way the UK Government was approaching regional
:15:03. > :15:06.development in Wales as encouraging but it needs to be matched by the
:15:07. > :15:11.Welsh government. Susie Davis said the post-Brexit regional policy may
:15:12. > :15:15.look different in the future but it was right for Wales to take
:15:16. > :15:19.advantage of UK regional policy now, as "Big thinkers in a small
:15:20. > :15:22.country". We should welcome the commitment coming from the Prime
:15:23. > :15:29.Minister rather than go, as she said, into a bit of a sulk. Welsh
:15:30. > :15:32.Conservatives are committed to the lagoon, as acknowledged by the Prime
:15:33. > :15:42.Minister to us, as Susie emphasised, and the last thing, as she said, the
:15:43. > :15:44.lagoon needs now is Corbynomics. The Cabinet Secretary responded and said
:15:45. > :15:47.they are determined to spread they are determined to spread
:15:48. > :15:52.prosperity across Wales. It's a shame that since 1998 we have
:15:53. > :15:57.remained the part of the UK with the lowest GBA. He said the Severn
:15:58. > :16:01.Bridge tolls are a barrier which is why Theresa May has announced she is
:16:02. > :16:04.removing them. He then made a week and wobbly proposition that
:16:05. > :16:07.confidence is returning to South Wales thanks to the Welsh
:16:08. > :16:12.government. In reality most things have been going backwards since
:16:13. > :16:15.devolution, not because of devolution but because of
:16:16. > :16:18.government. It's interesting the improvement in jobs and employment
:16:19. > :16:25.and investment has happened since the conservative Prime Minister and
:16:26. > :16:32.Conservative lead government took office in 2010. It certainly wasn't
:16:33. > :16:35.happening beforehand. I regret he resorted to a petty personalised
:16:36. > :16:42.attack against a colleague. He referred to the cross-party group
:16:43. > :16:45.meeting today, I also attended and I welcome his attendance. I think I
:16:46. > :16:50.was elected as a joint deputy chair of that group. The critical work to
:16:51. > :16:54.do is great deals on each side of the border, the Cabinet Secretary
:16:55. > :16:59.said, must be complimentary. No, this is a single great deal for both
:17:00. > :17:00.sides of the border, that's why Warrington were represented there
:17:01. > :17:16.today but also Gwynedd was represented there today.
:17:17. > :17:20.It is nine years since the last scheme had to be scrapped by the
:17:21. > :17:30.Welsh government of its proposals word... Would you like to stand? Is
:17:31. > :17:34.it -- is it not true you campaigned against that skin? I campaigned in
:17:35. > :17:40.support of local people which you'd also did when you realise there was
:17:41. > :17:44.an election a few weeks ahead. I hope what comes out this time is in
:17:45. > :17:48.keeping with the sustainability needs of the local community. You
:17:49. > :17:51.talked about enhanced rail capacity in north-east Wales, it would be
:17:52. > :17:56.wonderful if the worst government caught up with the Mersey districts,
:17:57. > :18:02.the Liverpool district, and announce its going to support and invest in
:18:03. > :18:13.this side of the border. So that the proposals do not end at the border.
:18:14. > :18:19.Also to restore the two miles it removed from the Wrexham- Chester
:18:20. > :18:25.line. Referring to the Menai, we had a consultation which made a series
:18:26. > :18:30.of recommendations and it appears it is Groundhog Day as well there. As
:18:31. > :18:33.he said, we need to ensure productivity increases and future
:18:34. > :18:42.proof against automation through a new approach, working with the UK
:18:43. > :18:47.Government supported great deal in North Wales, through the city deals
:18:48. > :18:52.in South Wales and hopefully through a mid Wales great deal too. But that
:18:53. > :18:56.will require the Welsh government to recognise the proposals will be
:18:57. > :19:00.North Wales great vision and in the bit that's going forward, require it
:19:01. > :19:07.to give up some power to the region also. Thank you very much. The
:19:08. > :19:20.proposal is to agree the motion, does any member object? I will defer
:19:21. > :19:23.voting until voting time. The next item is the debate that was
:19:24. > :19:28.withdrawn by Plaid Cymru on live music and therefore item ten is the
:19:29. > :19:39.Plaid Cymru debate on the National energy company. I call on Simon
:19:40. > :19:43.Thomas. Thank you. I am pleased to move the motion in the name of Plaid
:19:44. > :19:47.Cymru, which puts forward and presents evidence on the
:19:48. > :19:50.establishment of an independent energy company for Wales. At the
:19:51. > :19:56.beginning of the debate I would like to highlight the fact that we have
:19:57. > :20:06.published a research paper on the issue, and have used the Assembly's
:20:07. > :20:11.research fund, and the paper is attached to the debate and I hope
:20:12. > :20:15.members of all parties will read the paper to criticise it or to agree
:20:16. > :20:21.with that. I think it's important we use Assembly resources to build the
:20:22. > :20:24.evidence base for our debates, and to disseminate information. If
:20:25. > :20:28.anyone wants a hard copy or I would be more than happy to provide one to
:20:29. > :20:34.you. It's true to save Plaid Cymru has always been in favour of an
:20:35. > :20:38.independent energy company for Wales, but the evidence for that has
:20:39. > :20:45.increased over the past few years, and the main shift in this area was
:20:46. > :20:48.the environment committee's report that identified the opportunity for
:20:49. > :20:51.an energy company for Wales which could do a great deal in order to
:20:52. > :20:56.close the gap in terms of fuel poverty, to invest in new forms of
:20:57. > :21:04.energy, particularly renewable and hydrogen, and also to identify
:21:05. > :21:11.opportunities to challenge the current trading climate in energy
:21:12. > :21:13.now underpinning the current situation is the fundamental
:21:14. > :21:22.question, does the current market work? For the everyday resident,
:21:23. > :21:27.does it work for business, and does it work in terms of long-term
:21:28. > :21:30.investment in the kinds of energy and the energy industry we want to
:21:31. > :21:34.see in Wales? Plaid Cymru is of the opinion the answer is no, the
:21:35. > :21:41.current system isn't working. And we need at least one more move in the
:21:42. > :21:46.current system to make things more lively. The opinion is shared by the
:21:47. > :21:51.Labour Party, at least the Corbyn Labour Party, because that Labour
:21:52. > :21:57.Party has put in its manifesto for the general election on the 8th of
:21:58. > :22:02.June for an independent energy company in all regions. They use the
:22:03. > :22:07.word region, I think Labour sees Wales as a region, it is a nation
:22:08. > :22:12.for us of course. That's why I was surprised to see the Labour Party
:22:13. > :22:18.here had tabled an amendment watering down our requests and
:22:19. > :22:22.undermining what they are saying and what their own party is standing on
:22:23. > :22:27.in this election. That is a matter for them to explain and I'm sure
:22:28. > :22:37.they will do so in due time. There is no doubt that the current market
:22:38. > :22:41.is damaging Wales. Low income households are highly affected by
:22:42. > :22:46.high energy costs and this is common to all parties. The Labour Party
:22:47. > :22:51.proposed a cap on energy prices two years ago. That was derided by the
:22:52. > :22:55.Conservative Party at the time but now it's the Conservatives proposing
:22:56. > :22:59.a cap on energy prices. That is something that is eight temporary
:23:00. > :23:05.fix. It's not tackling the fundamental robber in the market and
:23:06. > :23:08.that's what we are proposing here, something long time which would
:23:09. > :23:22.actually intervene in that market here in Wales, 23% of homes are
:23:23. > :23:28.believed to be in few will poverty. 3% are in severe fuel poverty, they
:23:29. > :23:31.pay more than 20% of their income on energy costs. That puts you in a
:23:32. > :23:35.very difficult position indeed. What's interesting is if you compare
:23:36. > :23:41.that with the rest of Britain, because only 11% of homes in England
:23:42. > :23:48.are considered to be in fuel poverty. In the past, possibly
:23:49. > :23:55.today, some may argue, that moving towards removable energy is
:23:56. > :23:59.increased prices and we are irresponsible in arguing for an
:24:00. > :24:02.energy system which is less reliant on carbon because that will raise
:24:03. > :24:06.energy prices for our poorest customers. But what is interesting
:24:07. > :24:11.is that energy prices in Wales are far higher than they are in the rest
:24:12. > :24:16.of the UK. But we produce less renewable energy than the rest of
:24:17. > :24:20.the UK. So, as the percentage of electricity produced by renewable
:24:21. > :24:30.sources at the moment is some 20% in Scotland it is double that. Over 42%
:24:31. > :24:37.in Northern Ireland. It is 50, sorry, 26%. And even in England it
:24:38. > :24:42.is higher than Wales, some 2% higher. Therefore there is no clear
:24:43. > :24:46.link between using renewable sources and the price paid by customers. The
:24:47. > :24:54.market is far more complex than that. And the fact is that we are
:24:55. > :24:58.storing up problems for the future, as we continue with an energy
:24:59. > :25:03.distributional system which is very centralised and isn't distributed at
:25:04. > :25:05.a local level, not devolved in that sense, and isn't therefore
:25:06. > :25:11.appropriate for the kind of energy production which we will soon see
:25:12. > :25:13.developing. One of those is something we've already discussed
:25:14. > :25:19.with the Cabinet Secretary, the shift towards vehicles of all kinds
:25:20. > :25:24.running on electricity or hydrogen, particularly in terms of public
:25:25. > :25:28.transport. The tidal lagoon which we are very supportive of and I'm
:25:29. > :25:31.disappointed it isn't being reflected in the UK manifesto of the
:25:32. > :25:38.Conservative Party, although it's in the manifesto of all other parties,
:25:39. > :25:42.but the tidal lagoon particularly in south Wales and North Wales, does
:25:43. > :25:45.require a more localised distribution centre where local
:25:46. > :25:50.people seem more benefit from the investment made in renewable energy.
:25:51. > :26:02.Now, although more is to be devolved to Wales in terms of energy planning
:26:03. > :26:06.up to 350 megawatts, it is true to say the funding systems will remain
:26:07. > :26:11.in London. In that context too, the establishment of an energy of
:26:12. > :26:15.company for Wales will be of benefit. So what could such a
:26:16. > :26:23.company do? Broadly speaking in the report we've commissioned, it looks
:26:24. > :26:26.at how a company could bulk buy. So, buying energy on but half of
:26:27. > :26:31.customers in Wales and passing on the savings in that context are
:26:32. > :26:37.those customers. We are looking at how an energy company could be a
:26:38. > :26:44.vehicle to provide some of the other objectives of the Welsh government.
:26:45. > :26:52.We'd use this company as a vehicle for those improvements and the
:26:53. > :26:56.company could be an envelope for investment in renewable energy. I
:26:57. > :27:00.don't think it's broadly recognised that the Welsh Government's already
:27:01. > :27:05.investing, to be fair to it, is already investing in renewable
:27:06. > :27:12.energy. I think they have an investment in a solar farm in man
:27:13. > :27:16.mouthshire somewhere, I think some millions of pounds were invested
:27:17. > :27:22.there. We are also seeing a number of local communities coming together
:27:23. > :27:29.to invest locally. There are some good examples of that. I
:27:30. > :27:32.congratulate one particular company of meeting their target of ?5
:27:33. > :27:36.million. Surely it would be better for a national company to coordinate
:27:37. > :27:43.the deals to get better deals in the city for investment and in turn pass
:27:44. > :27:49.on those benefits to the customer. Our national energy companies could
:27:50. > :27:54.also lead... I'll give way. There are some major solar farm
:27:55. > :27:59.developments, and would you agree with me, that as good as the
:28:00. > :28:02.developments are, it's important the local communities get the benefits,
:28:03. > :28:06.because in some cases the communities haven't been fully
:28:07. > :28:10.involved along the way and they felt isolated from the benefits they
:28:11. > :28:13.rightly should get? I agree with the general point that he's making. I
:28:14. > :28:16.don't know if those are the projects that the Welsh Government's also
:28:17. > :28:21.given support to, but I think the point that I'm making is that a more
:28:22. > :28:23.national infrastructure would be a way of delivering those benefits
:28:24. > :28:27.more directly to the local consumers. I think that's a point
:28:28. > :28:31.that's something that's frustrate manied of us over the years who want
:28:32. > :28:35.to see the developments happen but also are frustrated with the
:28:36. > :28:38.national infrastructure that holds the benefits at centralised level
:28:39. > :28:41.and doesn't deliver them even though the local people are seeing the
:28:42. > :28:45.development locally. Bringing the two together is what a national
:28:46. > :28:52.energy company could potentially do in the Welsh context. If I could
:28:53. > :28:56.just conclude my remarks by saying that we would also, and personally
:28:57. > :29:00.from the point of view of Plaid Cymru, we'd want to see this company
:29:01. > :29:05.being developed either on a cooperative basis or certainly on a
:29:06. > :29:08.basis which could include local councils or regional energy
:29:09. > :29:15.developments. It's the cause of sadness to me that we have seen more
:29:16. > :29:20.development in England and devolved systems from central government in
:29:21. > :29:25.England who have used the localism Act to allow an energy company in
:29:26. > :29:30.Manchester to allow an energy company in Nottingham, Robin Hood
:29:31. > :29:34.Energy is well-known to us. And I think we too need to take advantage
:29:35. > :29:37.of those opportunities and I very much hope that the spirit of the
:29:38. > :29:44.motion will be accepted by the assembly.
:29:45. > :29:50.I have selected the amendment and I call on the secretary for
:29:51. > :29:56.environment and and rural affairs to amendment table one.
:29:57. > :30:07.Can I start by being polite and commending Plaid Cymru's initiative
:30:08. > :30:10.in using the new flexibility in assembly resources to commission
:30:11. > :30:16.research projects. I generally think it's a good idea and in fairness you
:30:17. > :30:22.have put your ideas out and we can have an excellent debate I'm sure on
:30:23. > :30:28.this proposal. So I think we need more of this and you deserve a
:30:29. > :30:35.serious response to your central suggestion.
:30:36. > :30:41.We won't be supporting it for reasons I'll indicate but we do
:30:42. > :30:45.share the aim for more fish and energy use at more competitive
:30:46. > :30:51.prices. It's our view this can be achieved without heavy Government
:30:52. > :30:55.intervention or nationalisation. I do know the thrust of the Plaid
:30:56. > :31:00.Cymru recommendation is to have a sort of national company that's
:31:01. > :31:06.bought in by local communities and local authorities potentially. I
:31:07. > :31:14.suppose if something does emerge that is built up from a local
:31:15. > :31:17.direction and mirrors something like Glas Cymru, there's more feasibility
:31:18. > :31:22.for that. I have to say, imposing this sort of structure and pushing
:31:23. > :31:28.the initiative and forcing it is something we would be suspicious
:31:29. > :31:33.about. Yes. If I could put it to him, if I was a Conservative I would
:31:34. > :31:36.have thought an energy cap was also a very heavy handed intervention
:31:37. > :31:43.into the market. Well, it brings me nicely on to the point that it's not
:31:44. > :31:59.an efficient or perfect market and the
:32:00. > :32:04.difficulties we have are that the energy prices are high and also very
:32:05. > :32:08.difficult to understand whenever you get your energy bill, unless you did
:32:09. > :32:12.double maths at A-level, I don't think you've got a hope and perhaps
:32:13. > :32:18.you need to have studied it at university as well. But in general,
:32:19. > :32:24.we are about 15% higher on electricity prices than the OECD
:32:25. > :32:30.average and that pinches on us all. But it's particularly I think
:32:31. > :32:35.unfortunate for those in fuel poverty. According to some
:32:36. > :32:46.calculations, it would be feasible to deliver effective electricity and
:32:47. > :32:49.reduce the cost by 50%. There is that type of potential saving. I
:32:50. > :32:54.think it's something that we should very much aim for. Efficiency is key
:32:55. > :32:59.to that part. If we all use more energy, as it becomes cheaper, it's
:33:00. > :33:04.not going to really get us anywhere. I think we do sign up to the
:33:05. > :33:10.principle that more local generation is important and use of other
:33:11. > :33:14.models, innovative models like cooperatives and I think many of us
:33:15. > :33:19.would have visited some of these schemes and found them very note
:33:20. > :33:24.worthy and inspiring. There are some draw backs. We need to sort of
:33:25. > :33:30.balance diet here really of providers. There is a need for
:33:31. > :33:36.resilience. You don't always get that in local community-run
:33:37. > :33:42.projects. Also we still need a wider strategy and I think that is a very,
:33:43. > :33:49.very important matter to be borne in mind. Can I just say that whilst we
:33:50. > :33:59.have some reservations about Plaid's approach, but we are pleased to note
:34:00. > :34:03.them and welcome this as part of a healthy debate, perhaps Plaid Cymru
:34:04. > :34:06.would find comfort in this but we find the Government's amendment
:34:07. > :34:13.broadly right in terms of its approach, although that is not me
:34:14. > :34:19.praising full-scale all of the current approaches taken by the
:34:20. > :34:24.Government in terms of energy. We would very much urge them to look at
:34:25. > :34:28.some of the long-term structural issues that are limiting growth and
:34:29. > :34:34.development in mid and North Wales in terms of the grid and access to
:34:35. > :34:37.it and how smaller scale hydroprojects in particular connect
:34:38. > :34:42.to it. Can I say that I think we need a policy based on increasing
:34:43. > :34:47.efficient use and distribution of electricity. We need to reduce
:34:48. > :34:51.fossil fuel use. I think that is very, very important and reference
:34:52. > :34:55.has been made to electric cars, but of course that invites you to think
:34:56. > :35:01.about you are going to generate that electricity at source and we do not
:35:02. > :35:08.want to be fossil-fuel dependent. Our aim is a low carbon economy and
:35:09. > :35:13.also plenty of room for innovative community projects. Again, I'll just
:35:14. > :35:19.finish by commending Plaid Cymru for I think this is the first debate on
:35:20. > :35:26.a commissioned report by a political party using the new resources, so at
:35:27. > :35:32.least on that I can say well done. Thank you. If we are serious about
:35:33. > :35:36.tackling climate change as one of the greatest threats facing
:35:37. > :35:39.humanity, then we must first of all reduce our energy use, that's always
:35:40. > :35:44.the starts point when it comes to energy policy, but then increase the
:35:45. > :35:48.percentage of energy which is produced from renewable sources.
:35:49. > :35:56.Plaid Cymru's aim in order to enable us to cut carbon emissions by 80% by
:35:57. > :36:04.2050 and 40% by 2020 is to produce as much energy as is used in Wales
:36:05. > :36:09.from renewable sources by 2035 and there would be a key role for Cymru
:36:10. > :36:15.to play in achieving that particular ambition. As we have heard in the
:36:16. > :36:20.last assembly, the environment sustainability committee produced a
:36:21. > :36:23.report, smarter energy future for Wales and it received cross party
:36:24. > :36:28.support and what it was in reality was a blueprint in terms of moving
:36:29. > :36:32.this agenda forward. It suggested ways of achieving the economic
:36:33. > :36:37.potential which emerges from using natural resources in a responsible,
:36:38. > :36:42.sustainable manner and creating jobs and wealth for the people of Wales.
:36:43. > :36:50.In so doing, it allows us to tackle the issue of fuel poverty, clearly
:36:51. > :36:55.tackling climate change and also of course, empowers local community to
:36:56. > :37:00.be far more proactive and far more engaged in deciding their own energy
:37:01. > :37:07.futures. Wales doesn't have to wait for further powers in this area
:37:08. > :37:11.before delivering much of what is contained within the committee's
:37:12. > :37:16.vision. We can start on much of this work now and far more of it should
:37:17. > :37:24.have already been commenced over a year ago. One of the committee's
:37:25. > :37:28.recommendations in that report was to create an umbrella not for profit
:37:29. > :37:31.energy company. We heard that local authorities across England have
:37:32. > :37:35.established such companies, we know of examples in Bristol and
:37:36. > :37:41.Nottingham and, of course, we could use that in order to target and
:37:42. > :37:48.tackle fuel poverty. We know in Nottingham Robin Hood Energy offers
:37:49. > :37:52.a particular tariff or residents of Nottingham -- for residents of
:37:53. > :37:56.Nottingham. Within that, they can set lower rates in specific areas
:37:57. > :38:01.where there is a great deal of fuel poverty, that isn't to say that
:38:02. > :38:05.nothing is happening in Wales. We know in Bridgend council for example
:38:06. > :38:09.about the local heat networks there and Wrexham's already done a great
:38:10. > :38:16.deal in terms of solar energy. But this should be the norm, rather than
:38:17. > :38:19.the exceptions as is too offn the case. The creation of a national
:38:20. > :38:23.energy company for Wales is the chance for us to get to the core of
:38:24. > :38:27.some of these issues of fuel poverty to investing in infrastructure,
:38:28. > :38:32.joint bargaining, creating energy, generating energy and research and
:38:33. > :38:34.development in energy and in so doing, creating those commercial
:38:35. > :38:39.opportunities which will bring broader benefits to the people of
:38:40. > :38:46.Wales, never mind of course the environmental benefits. Now,
:38:47. > :38:51.reducing demand for energy is in a very important way and a key part of
:38:52. > :38:56.that process of moving to a smarter energy future and we know the
:38:57. > :39:01.households in the UK spend some 80% of their energy cost on heating
:39:02. > :39:05.rooms and heating water in homes. We therefore need to ensure that homes
:39:06. > :39:12.are as efficient as possible in terms of energy usage and we know
:39:13. > :39:16.that there are schemes making contributions. I've said time and
:39:17. > :39:20.again, they are nowhere near enough in terms of responding to the scale
:39:21. > :39:25.of the challenge facing us and the level of investment that's truly
:39:26. > :39:30.required when it comes to that agenda. But I would certainly feel
:39:31. > :39:35.that Cymru would have a role in that area in terms of encouraging and
:39:36. > :39:39.educating people on how to tackle this whole agenda. So we need to
:39:40. > :39:46.move away. I've said this previously. I can't make the point
:39:47. > :39:50.strongly enough - we have to move away from this bespoke model of
:39:51. > :39:54.where energy is produced in large stations and transferred
:39:55. > :39:58.inefficiently in a very costly way across an ageing grid which is
:39:59. > :40:04.creeking very often. We need to move to a model of a grid which is more
:40:05. > :40:12.of a spider web, a smarter grid with 2th the energy being produced closer
:40:13. > :40:16.to where it is being consumed. Cymru could certainly be part of that
:40:17. > :40:21.transformation and look at new storage systems in homes. I have ten
:40:22. > :40:26.seconds left, unfortunately. We also need to look at the planning system
:40:27. > :40:31.and the committee's report has done that and my plea is that the
:40:32. > :40:37.template and blueprint is in place, what we need now is a political win
:40:38. > :40:44.to try to drive this agenda forward. Neil Hamilton. I'm delighted to take
:40:45. > :40:50.part in this debate. I have some difficulty in understanding how such
:40:51. > :40:54.a company could in practice make any material difference to the power in
:40:55. > :40:59.Wales if it doesn't have access to capital from private markets. I
:41:00. > :41:03.assume we are not thinking about setting up a nationalised energy
:41:04. > :41:07.company and, of course, there is a role for cooperatives and that is
:41:08. > :41:12.not likely to make more than a morning national difference to the
:41:13. > :41:16.current state of the market. I'm not opposed to this in principle but do
:41:17. > :41:19.see certain practical difficulties in bringing it about to make a
:41:20. > :41:26.difference. I have some difficulty with some of the claims that are
:41:27. > :41:30.made in the context of this paper on which the proposal is based which
:41:31. > :41:34.I'll come to in a moment. The background to all this is the
:41:35. > :41:38.Climate change Act, and this is explicit in the foreword to the
:41:39. > :41:45.document, there is an obligation to reduce the carbon emissions by 80%
:41:46. > :41:48.by 2050. We need to Clear this can only be done by imposing colossal
:41:49. > :41:54.costs on households and businesses in Wales.
:41:55. > :42:01.In considering, as we heard in the last debate, that we had some of the
:42:02. > :42:05.poorest parts not just of the UK but also of western Europe, that is a
:42:06. > :42:12.significant burden which has to be taken into account. The costs of the
:42:13. > :42:18.Climate Change Act are distributed amongst the population in 2014 were
:42:19. > :42:24.?5 billion per annum, this is reflected in our electricity bills
:42:25. > :42:29.as well as parts of the costs of providing ourselves with power which
:42:30. > :42:33.are met by companies that feed into the power bills in other ways as
:42:34. > :42:39.green taxes on the one hand and green taxes on the one hand and
:42:40. > :42:46.increased generated costs on the other. That figure in 2014 will rise
:42:47. > :42:53.to 14 billion a year in 2020. Let's put these figures into real
:42:54. > :42:59.perspective. In 2020, the average household in the UK will be paying
:43:00. > :43:03.?584 a year for the obligations we've assumed under the Climate
:43:04. > :43:18.Change Act. In 2030 that will have risen to ?875 a year, by 2050 it
:43:19. > :43:24.will be ?1395. In the 16 years between 2014 and 2030, the average
:43:25. > :43:29.household in Wales will pay and extra ?11,000 in the costs of
:43:30. > :43:32.electricity. But is not an insignificant sum. The further down
:43:33. > :43:37.the income scale you go the greater the burden that is felt. So we have
:43:38. > :43:41.to be clear that what we are doing is worthwhile to the public benefit.
:43:42. > :43:49.I don't believe that that is the case. It is said in the
:43:50. > :43:55.justification for this change that there is a list of present and
:43:56. > :43:57.future challenges. It refers to increased incidence of erratic
:43:58. > :44:02.weather events due to climate change. There is no evidence
:44:03. > :44:07.whatsoever to justify that claim. In fact the evidence is all the other
:44:08. > :44:11.way. What is it that we are seeing in world weather patterns which is
:44:12. > :44:15.any different from at any time in the last hundred years? The datasets
:44:16. > :44:20.beyond that aren't available so we can't compare like with like for a
:44:21. > :44:26.very long period. So we are making dramatic assumptions on the basis of
:44:27. > :44:31.inadequate data, on the basis of which we are imposing real burdens
:44:32. > :44:35.on real people. I do believe it's a responsible way for us to behave. If
:44:36. > :44:42.we take hurricane is, after hurricane Katrina in 2005, everybody
:44:43. > :44:46.in the climate alarm as the world said the end of the world was night
:44:47. > :44:50.and we had moved into an era of greater volatility which would
:44:51. > :44:54.impose massive costs on the world. The evidence of the National oceanic
:44:55. > :45:01.and atmospheric Administration data which go back to 1851, is that no
:45:02. > :45:05.major hurricane has hit the continent of the USA since October
:45:06. > :45:11.2000 and five. So we have the longest pause on record and they say
:45:12. > :45:16.it is premature to conclude that human activities have already had a
:45:17. > :45:21.detectable impact on Atlantic hurricane activity. In the bulletin
:45:22. > :45:27.of the American meteorological Society in 2015 there was a very
:45:28. > :45:31.interesting article on understanding trends and extreme storms. There
:45:32. > :45:37.were no significant trend in the number of US hurricanes hitting the
:45:38. > :45:41.United States since 1900. The increase appears to be a natural
:45:42. > :45:45.variation. The variation occurs within years and decades but not
:45:46. > :45:50.over the whole length of time of the datasets. This experience could be
:45:51. > :45:56.replicated for tornadoes, droughts and all sorts of other natural
:45:57. > :46:01.weather conditions. In the course of five minutes I can barely begin to
:46:02. > :46:05.argue this point, but all I would like to say in conclusion in this
:46:06. > :46:10.debate is that there is no scientific basis which we can rely
:46:11. > :46:13.upon unambiguously to justify the vast costs which we deliberately are
:46:14. > :46:19.imposing upon ordinary and vulnerable people. I call on the
:46:20. > :46:28.Cabinet Secretary for environment and Rural Affairs stop.
:46:29. > :46:33.The Welsh government has committed to delivering a low carbon energy
:46:34. > :46:37.system for Wales and we have committed to delivering the maximum
:46:38. > :46:42.benefits for Wales and protect the most abominable. I welcome the work
:46:43. > :46:50.being done on developing the Ynni Cymru model. And certainly, reading
:46:51. > :46:54.the report, clear that the report identifies very similar strategic
:46:55. > :46:58.priorities to those that I set out in my energy statement in December,
:46:59. > :47:02.using energy more efficiently, moving to low-carbon generation and
:47:03. > :47:06.gaining economic benefit from the new technologies and business models
:47:07. > :47:10.emerging from the transition. Most of the types of activity proposed
:47:11. > :47:15.are already being taken forward by Welsh government funded programmes
:47:16. > :47:19.of support, such as Welsh government warm homes, the local energy service
:47:20. > :47:24.and the public sector support offer. We continue to identify sources of
:47:25. > :47:30.capital finance which can be used to support the development of energy
:47:31. > :47:32.efficiency and renewable energy projects across all sectors. We've
:47:33. > :47:37.had significant impact with our efficiency programmes to date and we
:47:38. > :47:41.are keen to address the energy efficiency challenge and set out
:47:42. > :47:46.actions to be taken forward. I think it was an initial exchange between
:47:47. > :47:51.Simon Thomas and myself that got this conversation going around
:47:52. > :47:56.having a not-for-profit company, Simon Thomas and I had an initial
:47:57. > :47:59.meeting and then the Welsh government held three events across
:48:00. > :48:06.Wales in March to collect evidence and fears about the potential energy
:48:07. > :48:10.service company for Wales. Simon spoke at the event in Aberystwyth
:48:11. > :48:14.and I think it's helpful to see the aspirations you've spoken about
:48:15. > :48:19.today are really set out in the report that we are considering
:48:20. > :48:24.today. The environment and sustainability committee of the last
:48:25. > :48:27.Assembly recommended setting up an energy company and its report
:48:28. > :48:33.recognised the risks and challenges in entering what is now a highly
:48:34. > :48:39.competitive market, with over 50 players. And certainly the feedback
:48:40. > :48:44.we had from those three meetings is that we, it is very challenging at
:48:45. > :48:48.the moment to sell cheap energy which is also low-carbon, unless you
:48:49. > :48:54.own a generation. Profits are therefore uncertain. The supply
:48:55. > :48:59.sector is about high customer volumes and very low margins. The
:49:00. > :49:03.feedback we got was that people felt we needed to be very clear on the
:49:04. > :49:07.purpose of an energy company. There is a danger that an energy company
:49:08. > :49:11.could become a distraction from what is really needed which is the work
:49:12. > :49:15.we are already doing in driving investment and energy efficiency.
:49:16. > :49:18.Renewable edge generation and infrastructure. To enable that
:49:19. > :49:25.transition to a deep carbonised energy system in Wales. We need to
:49:26. > :49:29.look at the benefits and risks of such a company. We also need to be
:49:30. > :49:35.clear about the purpose of a company. It could tackle energy
:49:36. > :49:39.prices, it could address issues of trust in providers but it's unlikely
:49:40. > :49:44.that any single model would be able to tackle all of the issues. It's
:49:45. > :49:47.good to be working with people interested in this idea to
:49:48. > :49:52.understand what activity is already underway, and clarify how Welsh
:49:53. > :49:57.government can best add value in this area. We are also aware of a
:49:58. > :50:01.number of organisations within Wales already considering or taking action
:50:02. > :50:07.against a background where the number of energy companies is
:50:08. > :50:13.increasing rapidly. There is already 50 providers with a supply licence,
:50:14. > :50:17.some of which are providing greater choice. However we have seen the
:50:18. > :50:20.failure of GB energy which demonstrates it is difficult to
:50:21. > :50:27.compete in an increasingly crowded Arquette. We also got some feedback
:50:28. > :50:32.from the event is about the fact Welsh government needs to continue
:50:33. > :50:36.to supply a supportive policy environment and coordinate activity
:50:37. > :50:41.across Wales, to enable projects to be delivered for the benefit of
:50:42. > :50:44.Wales. Another bit of feedback was that people felt the government's
:50:45. > :50:49.job should be to act as an honest and trusted voice above the sales
:50:50. > :50:51.patter of competing energy suppliers, looking at the strategic
:50:52. > :50:59.and regulatory issues. We work closely with oft gen, the National
:51:00. > :51:04.Grid, the UK Government to ensure they deliver on our priority to
:51:05. > :51:08.deliver an energy system which enables the low-carbon transition in
:51:09. > :51:16.Wales. An arms arm's-length body without the convening power would be
:51:17. > :51:19.unable to do this. We are linking up activities and supporting
:51:20. > :51:23.developments which won't happen naturally. This is exactly what we
:51:24. > :51:29.are doing by supporting projects such as energy local, which is
:51:30. > :51:33.piloting local selling of electricity and I'm looking forward
:51:34. > :51:36.to visiting that very soon. But will help us understand how regulation
:51:37. > :51:40.needs to change to help this happen more widely. We've already
:51:41. > :51:45.identified heat as a key area and have been working with Bridgend to
:51:46. > :51:51.identify new approaches to delivering low-carbon heat. We are
:51:52. > :51:55.now gathering evidence on the support services we provide in
:51:56. > :51:57.Wales. These services have already captured local benefit from
:51:58. > :52:03.delivering energy projects across Wales. They will continue to form a
:52:04. > :52:06.key part of our approach to creating the right environment for that
:52:07. > :52:11.transition to low-carbon in Wales. I very much look forward to publishing
:52:12. > :52:14.our report from those recent events, along with our position on the
:52:15. > :52:20.proposal. I look forward to continuing to work with Simon Thomas
:52:21. > :52:24.and any other elected members who support our vision to identify how
:52:25. > :52:29.to continue to use the available resources in the most innovative
:52:30. > :52:35.ways to deliver our energy aims. I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the
:52:36. > :52:40.debate. Thank you to everyone who's taken part and I think if we can try
:52:41. > :52:45.and come to at least one thing we've all decided and agreed upon which is
:52:46. > :52:48.that it is an imperfect market, and it's not delivering the efficiencies
:52:49. > :52:52.you would expect a good market to do. That's why it needs such heavy
:52:53. > :52:56.regulation. I could test that by asking members to raise their hands
:52:57. > :53:00.if they still remain with the original energy company they were
:53:01. > :53:07.with before privatisation. I think there would be quite a few, slightly
:53:08. > :53:14.indicating they are still with those originals. I think that shows the
:53:15. > :53:18.market is very difficult for the average consumer to batter Lynn.
:53:19. > :53:24.That's why we need consumer champions. That can be a regulator
:53:25. > :53:29.or it can be a company set up to intervene in a particular way. I'm
:53:30. > :53:31.very pleased the worst government has undertaken these consultation
:53:32. > :53:37.events and I'm look forward to hearing more details from them. I
:53:38. > :53:40.think it's fair to say there was enthusiasm in the event in
:53:41. > :53:45.Aberystwyth for eight development like this. I accept that purpose and
:53:46. > :53:49.focus will be very important. What would the main purpose and focus be?
:53:50. > :53:55.There are a wide range of things an energy company could be, fuel
:53:56. > :53:59.poverty, of renewable energy, investment. It has to lead with some
:54:00. > :54:03.of these to really be effective. That's a decision that I would like
:54:04. > :54:05.to engage with with the Welsh government on, but not one that
:54:06. > :54:09.simply says let's carry on the way we are. I think there's so much
:54:10. > :54:13.wrong with the market at the moment but we would be letting the people
:54:14. > :54:22.of Wales down if we don't have a more intervention. The ideal
:54:23. > :54:27.scenario was described as more of a spider 's web approach to
:54:28. > :54:32.maintaining our energy. I would like to think that Wales energy company
:54:33. > :54:36.would be one of the threads, it wouldn't be the whole web but one of
:54:37. > :54:48.the main threads that help that wept together, and the one of course. --
:54:49. > :54:51.stickiest one of course. It's important to note the proposal we
:54:52. > :54:55.have is just a discussion document but one of the proposals is that you
:54:56. > :55:00.could float such a company but we would want the Welsh government to
:55:01. > :55:04.retain a controlling stake. There's no reason private markets can't get
:55:05. > :55:08.involved. I think there is a fundamental mistake in trying to
:55:09. > :55:13.argue the world is unchanging. China is investing 300 billion in
:55:14. > :55:19.renewable energy by 2020. India has a target of being 60% from renewable
:55:20. > :55:23.energy by 2027. We are old-fashioned in this regard, it's the new
:55:24. > :55:31.economies moving ahead and it's fair to say there are carbon taxes, but
:55:32. > :55:36.there's ?6 billion a year of subsidy going into the current fossil fuel
:55:37. > :55:42.industry. Twice that which is going into renewables. That's mainly in
:55:43. > :55:45.tax breaks in North Sea oil and gas. There is also substantial subsidies
:55:46. > :55:49.for nuclear. I think we would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge that
:55:50. > :55:53.there is an ongoing subsidy to the way we live today and that the
:55:54. > :55:57.demand to have new subsidies for a change to meet the challenges of the
:55:58. > :56:02.future isn't unreasonable in that context. I think, though Neil
:56:03. > :56:07.Hamilton wouldn't agree, and I accept, we have to reduce our
:56:08. > :56:10.dependency on fossil fuel. That is good for us environmentally and good
:56:11. > :56:17.for us as a nation because it makes us more self-reliant. We have the
:56:18. > :56:21.energy here, without coastline, mountains and rivers, to become more
:56:22. > :56:22.self reliant on energy. Who wouldn't want to become more self reliant on
:56:23. > :56:32.energy? Does he agree the subsidy is in
:56:33. > :56:34.respect of decommissioning in the North Sea, presumably that's
:56:35. > :56:43.something he wants to see, rather than the oil infrastructure being
:56:44. > :56:46.left there? It's a mix. Some were there for exploration so it's been
:56:47. > :56:50.changed the other way around. I want to conclude on that and thank
:56:51. > :56:55.members for acknowledging this debate has been engendered not only
:56:56. > :56:59.by Plaid Cymru policy but also by using sources of the assembly and I
:57:00. > :57:10.hope we see more debates like this. I encourage members to use the funds
:57:11. > :57:14.for policy in this way. For policy development in this way, please
:57:15. > :57:17.bring forward more debates in the regard, the resources are there to
:57:18. > :57:21.support us as assembly members. It does mean that we can think outside
:57:22. > :57:24.the box from time to time as well. I think this is something that will
:57:25. > :57:27.develop naturally and organically in Wales. We'll see local energy
:57:28. > :57:34.companies develop over a period of time. I would like us to take a more
:57:35. > :57:38.national leadership on the issue. The proposal is to agree the motion
:57:39. > :57:47.without amendment. Any members object? I will defer voting on this
:57:48. > :57:52.item until voting time and voting time now proceeds and unless three
:57:53. > :57:59.members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to
:58:00. > :58:04.voting time. The first vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate and I
:58:05. > :58:06.call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.
:58:07. > :58:37.Open a vote. The motion is not agreed. If
:58:38. > :58:42.amendment one is agreed, amendment two will be deselected. I call for a
:58:43. > :58:50.vote on amendment one tabled in the name of Jane Hut. Open the vote.
:58:51. > :59:08.The amendment is agreed. Amendment three, call for a vote on amendment
:59:09. > :59:28.three tabled. Open the vote. Close the vote. Amendment three is
:59:29. > :59:37.agreed. I call for a vote on amendment four.
:59:38. > :59:56.Amendment four is agreed. I now call for a vote on the motion as amended,
:59:57. > :00:16.open the vote. Close the vote. The motion as
:00:17. > :00:30.amended is agreed. We now have a vote on the Plaid
:00:31. > :00:35.Cymru debate on national energy company. I call for a vote on the
:00:36. > :00:59.motion tabled. Open the vote. Close the vote. The motion is not
:01:00. > :01:08.agreed. Amendment one, I call for a vote. Open the vote.
:01:09. > :01:22.Amendment one is agreed. I call for a vote on the motion as amended.
:01:23. > :01:33.Open the vote. Close the vote.