28/04/2017

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:00:28. > :00:35.Order, order. Tim Lawton to move the motion. I beg to move that this

:00:36. > :00:38.House considers post office closures. I'm grateful for the

:00:39. > :00:44.opportunity from the business committee to discuss this very

:00:45. > :00:47.important subject. The number of members this morning suggest it is

:00:48. > :00:53.something of an important subject and who would have thought that with

:00:54. > :00:59.an election on, as well. I will try and keep my comments as brief as

:01:00. > :01:02.possible. If members want to intervene rather than speeches, I

:01:03. > :01:07.will try and take some interventions. It would not be my

:01:08. > :01:12.intention to take a response at the end, as well, if that would help on

:01:13. > :01:16.the timing. I appreciate in previous debates on this subject as recently

:01:17. > :01:20.as November led by the gentleman for Luton North aired many of the issues

:01:21. > :01:26.I am sure members will want to repeat again today. There is concern

:01:27. > :01:32.about possible delays to future plans for the post office caused by

:01:33. > :01:36.the ensuing election. And of course there were outstanding concerns from

:01:37. > :01:40.that debate in November which I think the minister was rudely cut

:01:41. > :01:45.off from in divisions, where again it would be good to get some clarity

:01:46. > :01:49.today. Two Terrace, firstly my own local post office closures, I am

:01:50. > :01:54.sure everybody will have one they would like to air, but also the

:01:55. > :01:58.bigger picture of the long-term sustainability of the whole post

:01:59. > :02:02.office network. Can I first put on record that I think we should

:02:03. > :02:06.recognise the good work that has been done by the Government since

:02:07. > :02:10.2011 where the network has been stabilised. The number of closures

:02:11. > :02:15.has actually been substantially reduced. The subsidy for the network

:02:16. > :02:20.has been managed down from 210 million in 2012 to some 80 million

:02:21. > :02:26.this year, due to flexibility under some of the new arrangements. There

:02:27. > :02:30.are outside as well as downside. 200,000 additional opening hours

:02:31. > :02:36.every week, many of them at weekends in post office normally closed. Some

:02:37. > :02:42.?2 billion has been invested in the network plan since 2012. In contrast

:02:43. > :02:44.to previous years, were effectively half the network branches were

:02:45. > :02:51.closed in the previous ten years or so. I lost more than half of my post

:02:52. > :02:56.office, sub post office branches in my constituency. When I became an MP

:02:57. > :03:01.in 1997 there were nearly 20,000 branches, now down to about 11,000

:03:02. > :03:06.500. There are encouraging signs but worrying signs if all of a sudden

:03:07. > :03:10.you are faced with the closure at post offices in your own area. When

:03:11. > :03:18.the branches are being closed we promised the Crown post of this were

:03:19. > :03:21.sacrosanct and would remain the main flagship of the high street post

:03:22. > :03:27.office. They are important parts of the local community, the post office

:03:28. > :03:30.branches and the Crown post offices. Local businesses, retail and other

:03:31. > :03:35.small businesses heavily rely upon them. If you do not go to the high

:03:36. > :03:40.street use the post of as you do not use some of the neighbouring shops.

:03:41. > :03:43.They act as a community hub. There is like mine with a high pensioner

:03:44. > :03:49.population are particularly well used by the elderly population. And

:03:50. > :03:51.by those from disadvantaged backgrounds, especially those who do

:03:52. > :03:58.not have their own conventional bank accounts, as well. For those reasons

:03:59. > :04:00.the post of his remains well used. Something like 17 million customers

:04:01. > :04:05.a week. I will give way to the honourable member. I thank him for

:04:06. > :04:08.giving way and congratulate him on obtaining this debate. Is it not the

:04:09. > :04:13.case government needs to look at these services post offices provide,

:04:14. > :04:17.because they are losing those? And also the return they get on

:04:18. > :04:21.providing the service? I would like to come onto that. Why is the post

:04:22. > :04:27.office not growing instead of retrenching? In 2016 they announced

:04:28. > :04:32.the closure of 31 Crown post offices, branches. Even though the

:04:33. > :04:39.Crown offices are now breaking even having made a 46 million loss four

:04:40. > :04:43.years ago. Some other post offices have not been converted into the new

:04:44. > :04:49.type of offices and their future is still uncertain. In January this

:04:50. > :04:52.year a further 37 Crown Post offices were identified for closure,

:04:53. > :04:58.including the last two remaining ones in my constituency in lancing

:04:59. > :05:02.and sure. It caused huge worry and concern. -- in my constituency.

:05:03. > :05:07.There were a lot of demonstrations across all parts. What was

:05:08. > :05:10.particularly disrespectful is the first I found out about it when a

:05:11. > :05:15.constituent called me to ask what I was doing about it. The post office

:05:16. > :05:23.did not even have the courtesy to let the sitting MP and counsel no.

:05:24. > :05:28.They went through -- know about it. I was assured... Companies like WH

:05:29. > :05:33.Smiths have taken on more than 100 of the franchises and everything is

:05:34. > :05:39.supposedly working well. There are other chains that have been taken on

:05:40. > :05:46.including I gather Bargain Blues, an off-licence with some 30 branches.

:05:47. > :05:50.Some people may be concerned about the appropriateness of that. I was

:05:51. > :05:58.told both of those branches were not profitable and that is why they were

:05:59. > :06:02.going to be franchised out. The lancing branch in my constituency,

:06:03. > :06:07.apart from one very small sub post office right on the fringe of the

:06:08. > :06:13.village of Lancing looks after a population now of 27,000, for one

:06:14. > :06:18.post office. Not surprisingly the queues are frequent. It is the

:06:19. > :06:21.second largest business mark in the whole West Sussex with 220 companies

:06:22. > :06:27.employing more than 3000. The villagers last almost all of its

:06:28. > :06:32.bank branches. We were told we would lose the banks and we do all those

:06:33. > :06:38.services at the post office, so there is no concern anyway. If those

:06:39. > :06:43.branches are not making a profit it suggests they are not being run very

:06:44. > :06:48.well. It is certainly not true lack of usage and popular demand by the

:06:49. > :06:53.local population... Today I have just been told one of those branches

:06:54. > :06:57.is going to be transferred to a nearby convenience store. A

:06:58. > :07:03.convenience store which is much smaller than existing post offices.

:07:04. > :07:08.It has only operated since 2013. There will be extended opening hours

:07:09. > :07:12.on Saturday and Sunday and new disability access. It on the

:07:13. > :07:19.downside, nobody believes this store is big enough to house a replacement

:07:20. > :07:22.Crown post office. It will have fewer serving positions. There are

:07:23. > :07:27.serious concerns about queues already. It will not have the

:07:28. > :07:32.biometric enrolment service used for home office applications. There are

:07:33. > :07:39.concerns about staff transfer. We know from the post offices that have

:07:40. > :07:46.converted so far only ten out of 400 staff have come across. They are

:07:47. > :07:50.often going to minimum wage jobs. There are questions about ongoing

:07:51. > :07:55.training for those staff now working in non-Crown post offices. They

:07:56. > :08:00.tended to have a big turnover of staff as having the experience, as

:08:01. > :08:05.well. In many of the shops staff hours are cut. After initial

:08:06. > :08:09.promises about extended opening times, they tend to retrench. What

:08:10. > :08:14.happens if this model fails, as well? Some 8000 offices are now in

:08:15. > :08:21.convenience stores. The experience of convenience stores has seen a 4%

:08:22. > :08:26.reduction in hours of the members of staff since the National Living Wage

:08:27. > :08:30.came in. Some 13% of businesses face challenges about evaluation of

:08:31. > :08:38.business rates, as well. As we have seen from the Dalton's website there

:08:39. > :08:43.are 705 post office branches for sale. There is a lot of change and

:08:44. > :08:47.churning in the sector. Longer-term questions about the viability and

:08:48. > :08:51.sustainability of the new arrangements obviously arrive. There

:08:52. > :08:57.is another issue because both of my post offices are co-located with

:08:58. > :09:00.sorting offices. Not run by the post office, but by Royal Mail. But

:09:01. > :09:07.conveniently next to the post office. Again, experience has been

:09:08. > :09:11.without the anchor partnership tenants, the sorting offices are

:09:12. > :09:15.relocated to out-of-town sites. Far less convenient for people to go and

:09:16. > :09:17.get their deliveries from. Especially when you deal with an

:09:18. > :09:24.elderly population who might not be so mobile. We are going to have a

:09:25. > :09:28.consultation, and extended one, because of the election, on my post

:09:29. > :09:32.office, but we know there is not a single consultation that has

:09:33. > :09:38.overturned any of the proposals to transfer these post offices. I fear

:09:39. > :09:41.that it is something of a token exercise, other than the

:09:42. > :09:46.measurements of an access door which might be changed by a few inches, or

:09:47. > :09:51.the sweet counter might be relocated because it is in the guide dogs, or

:09:52. > :09:56.whatever. Frankly it is a token exercise. I am aware citizens advice

:09:57. > :09:59.do a good job overseeing the body and I am aware some of their

:10:00. > :10:04.research suggested in the new format that has been some improvement in

:10:05. > :10:10.some cases to access and service, as well. Overall the fears are the

:10:11. > :10:14.queues get longer, the timings take longer, the services are less

:10:15. > :10:21.consistent. You're dealing with different and new staff. It is just

:10:22. > :10:25.not as good as it used to be. It brings me to my second point, Sir

:10:26. > :10:31.Edward. Where exactly is the post office going? Everything the post

:10:32. > :10:35.office have done, the statistics I mentioned in terms of making it more

:10:36. > :10:41.efficient, producing -- reducing losses and perhaps extending hours,

:10:42. > :10:45.are based on retrenchment. Baker made policy that sees about others,

:10:46. > :10:49.certainly the directly owned ones, getting smaller and offering fewer

:10:50. > :10:57.services to customers. -- based on the policy. Fewer than 100 will be

:10:58. > :11:00.directly owned Crown post offices. The financial services part of the

:11:01. > :11:05.post office should be a big moneyspinner and is diminishing. At

:11:06. > :11:10.the beginning of the year, 150 financial specialists were made

:11:11. > :11:16.redundant. There was a specialist office in Lancing which was closed

:11:17. > :11:19.earlier this year. The mortgage specialist advice they get, because

:11:20. > :11:26.of their relationship with the bank of Ireland, gets a one off payment I

:11:27. > :11:29.gather of just ?800 for creating mortgages and no ongoing revenue.

:11:30. > :11:35.That seems to be selling themselves cheaply. They are caught in a

:11:36. > :11:38.relationship until 2023. It does not sound profitable for the post

:11:39. > :11:45.office. My question to the Minister, I hope she can enlighten us more,

:11:46. > :11:50.why is the post office not making more of financial services in

:11:51. > :11:54.particular given they are a trusted name, a presence on the high street

:11:55. > :12:00.and at a time when conventional banks are disappearing from the high

:12:01. > :12:04.street? I gather the revenue breaks down roughly some 47% as the revenue

:12:05. > :12:09.from stamp sales, increasingly available to buy anywhere, then

:12:10. > :12:16.there is government services for DVLA, fishing licences, these are

:12:17. > :12:20.all being squeezed, the revenue from them has been reducing. There is

:12:21. > :12:23.access to the current account banks as I have mentioned and banking

:12:24. > :12:26.protocols have been sorted out so they can cross fertilise different

:12:27. > :12:30.branches within a post office, which was a problem. Then the financial

:12:31. > :12:34.services were again it seems to be a declining market for the post

:12:35. > :12:40.office. Why are they not copying the example of the Challenger banks?

:12:41. > :12:48.Where banks like Metro are making a really good fist of expanding into

:12:49. > :12:51.these markets? Metro now has 915,000 customers, has taken ?8 billion in

:12:52. > :12:58.deposits, has 110 branches and it is growing. Why are we not doing what

:12:59. > :13:05.they have done in France, one thing we might want to copy from France,

:13:06. > :13:10.with their bank founded in 2006, specifically as a tool to help

:13:11. > :13:14.tackle financial exclusion? Now in 2016 it has a turnover of 5.6

:13:15. > :13:24.billion euros and a pre-tax profit of just over 1 billion euros.

:13:25. > :13:30.A fantastic opportunity for the state-owned Post Office to be taking

:13:31. > :13:33.advantage of changing markets and how we do our financial business by

:13:34. > :13:38.somebody who is trusted, and is on the High Street but for some reason

:13:39. > :13:42.not taking advantage of that. Why are they not making more of quick

:13:43. > :13:45.and collect services? Everywhere I go, there are shops on the High

:13:46. > :13:50.Street for people to collect their Amazon deliveries because they are

:13:51. > :13:54.not at home to do it. The Post Office is already on the High Street

:13:55. > :13:58.and surely could offer those services. 18% of Post Offices do not

:13:59. > :14:02.have those facilities and they will not have them if they move to

:14:03. > :14:07.smaller premises without the room to store and collect those parcels. The

:14:08. > :14:11.overall commercial revenue of the Post Office has been virtually

:14:12. > :14:16.stagnant in the last couple of years. So it is a great mystery as

:14:17. > :14:23.to why the Post Office is not at this time expanding and becoming

:14:24. > :14:26.more profitable, better for the taxpayer and for their customers,

:14:27. > :14:31.rather than following a long-term strategy which appears to be based

:14:32. > :14:35.on retrenchment and shrinking. Finally, questions I would like the

:14:36. > :14:39.Minister to answer, what is the big game plan for the Post Office? The

:14:40. > :14:46.network transformation programme will end by March of 2018 and 7,500

:14:47. > :14:52.traditional sub Post Offices will have been converted to the new

:14:53. > :14:58.model. What comes in at first after March 2018 in terms of further

:14:59. > :15:03.transformation and revenues? 85% of the public support the Government

:15:04. > :15:07.continuing, the taxpayer continuing to subsidise the Post Office and not

:15:08. > :15:15.just the obvious challenges facing Raul Post Offices were clearly there

:15:16. > :15:20.will be a sparsity challenge. Are there any further reductions planned

:15:21. > :15:24.in the next year? And also, as the Citizens Advice suggested, will

:15:25. > :15:29.there be an automatic brake if 5% of branches announced they are to be

:15:30. > :15:36.closed without breaking the access criteria which it is hard to do

:15:37. > :15:43.anyway? The biggest question is, why is the Post Office not using the

:15:44. > :15:46.current opportunities to expand, rather than retrenching? Especially

:15:47. > :15:53.as it has the security of government backing for its revenues and is a

:15:54. > :16:00.trusted name. In 2010 when the governing the promised to transform

:16:01. > :16:09.the Post Office, it's... I am on my final sentence, Sir Edward. In 2010,

:16:10. > :16:12.for a significant expansion in its banking services, in reality, I've

:16:13. > :16:17.fear it has said -- failed to safeguard these measures as revenue

:16:18. > :16:20.has fallen by 40% and income from financial services has been

:16:21. > :16:23.stagnating. Closing flagship branches and getting rid of

:16:24. > :16:27.experienced staff and putting counters at the back of the stores

:16:28. > :16:30.is not a great plan for innovation which I think is what our

:16:31. > :16:35.constituents want to see. Question is that this House

:16:36. > :16:40.considers Post Office closures. I have a problem, 12 people are trying

:16:41. > :16:44.to get in, so I will impose a four minute limit. If people intervene,

:16:45. > :16:49.some people will not get in and I shall choose our most senior member

:16:50. > :16:52.first. I am pleased to follow the

:16:53. > :16:57.honourable gentleman, who has made some very valid points indeed.

:16:58. > :17:01.Because of time, I simply want to concentrate on the willing whole

:17:02. > :17:11.Post Office in the borough of Walsall. This is the second attempt

:17:12. > :17:15.to do so. The first was in 2013, which led to an adjournment debate

:17:16. > :17:20.at the time. The opposition in the town was unanimous foreclosure and

:17:21. > :17:28.Nacho, as no surprise. Particularly in a place like other areas where

:17:29. > :17:36.you do not normally get unanimous opinion. But I found no one in

:17:37. > :17:40.Willinghall who wanted to see the Post Office closed. Then came the

:17:41. > :17:46.Indian welcome news which said that the Post Office had changed and

:17:47. > :17:52.instead of closure, it had been decided to retain and invest in the

:17:53. > :17:56.local Post Office and it was part, listen to these words, part of

:17:57. > :18:04.building a modern and profitable and sustainable network. The joy does

:18:05. > :18:10.not last long with the Post Office management. And under the latest

:18:11. > :18:16.closures, Willenhall is due to face the axe. The honourable gentleman

:18:17. > :18:21.was right about talking about public consultation. I am all for

:18:22. > :18:27.consultation. But as far as the Post Office is concerned, it is as much

:18:28. > :18:36.consultation as in North Korea. It is as much of a choice like Henry

:18:37. > :18:43.Ford said, you have any colour of my car, as long as it is black. So

:18:44. > :18:47.there is no consultation. Indeed, when I received the original letter

:18:48. > :18:53.stating consultation was going to take place, I explored it. I said,

:18:54. > :18:56.if residents, long or they writes to me and make it clear they are post,

:18:57. > :19:02.will it make any difference? The answer was quite clearly know and it

:19:03. > :19:09.would be a question of consulting on the alternative, toilet facilities,

:19:10. > :19:13.car parking and so on. But on the crucial issue of whether or not the

:19:14. > :19:16.Post Office should close, a decision had been made and there would be no

:19:17. > :19:26.change at all. So much for consultation. And what concerns me

:19:27. > :19:30.is not simply the closure of the Post Office. What I have found is

:19:31. > :19:35.that bank closure and Post Office closure tends to go together.

:19:36. > :19:42.Whether it is the first Post Office or the bank is the case may be, and

:19:43. > :19:51.it has undoubtedly such closures certainly when it also includes the

:19:52. > :19:55.bank, an adverse affect on local communities. We had a demonstration

:19:56. > :20:02.the other week, the union was involved. Elected representatives

:20:03. > :20:06.and of course, the public. We were just outside Willenhall crown Post

:20:07. > :20:10.Office, stating our opposition to the closure. What was happening

:20:11. > :20:15.inside the Post Office? I will tell the Minister if she is listening, a

:20:16. > :20:20.lengthy queue, no lack of business. Quite clearly, this is a Post Office

:20:21. > :20:26.which is central in Willenhall but it does not seem to matter to the

:20:27. > :20:30.Post Office or to the Government because the Post Office management

:20:31. > :20:37.is acting under intense pressure from the Government and they should

:20:38. > :20:40.not have any doubts about that. So I would say it is most unfortunate

:20:41. > :20:47.what is happening. I will continue to do my best with other people in

:20:48. > :20:52.Willenhall and with the unions to try and retrain the -- retain the

:20:53. > :20:57.Crown Post Office, but the chances are slight. But I simply conclude

:20:58. > :21:01.with these words, Sir Edward, I use the opportunity last time to have

:21:02. > :21:05.the adjournment debate, to make The Voice of Willenhall heard in the

:21:06. > :21:10.House of Commons, I do so today and hopefully... Order, order, Iain

:21:11. > :21:16.Duncan Smith. Thank you very much indeed. To be

:21:17. > :21:22.brief, I completely support my honourable friend who has initiated

:21:23. > :21:26.this debate and he has made all the basic national points. And also, I

:21:27. > :21:32.support much of what the honourable man has just said about his own Post

:21:33. > :21:36.Office. I am here today because I have a Post Office, a Crown Post

:21:37. > :21:43.Office, in my constituency in George Lane and the proposal now which was

:21:44. > :21:48.announced that they were going to close that Crown Post Office, it is

:21:49. > :21:52.as my honourable friend said situated ironically very close to a

:21:53. > :21:58.sorting office, which I understand is now wants to shut the sorting

:21:59. > :22:01.office as well. So we will have a serious blight in the area, the

:22:02. > :22:06.people who want to pick up parcels will have to go either opt to North

:22:07. > :22:11.Chingford which is some distance and the chat traffic is never easy, and

:22:12. > :22:14.for the Post Office itself, we will have a calamity on the High Street.

:22:15. > :22:20.It is worth reminding the Post Office and the Government that the

:22:21. > :22:24.Post Office is part of that chain of integral elements in a High Street

:22:25. > :22:29.which at the moment, bit by bit, is being removed. The banks have

:22:30. > :22:35.disappeared. And in my area and many others, there is real Russia to get

:22:36. > :22:40.rid of small industrial estates -- real pressure. They are vital to the

:22:41. > :22:43.life of those communities. Because people who work in those industrial

:22:44. > :22:48.estates use the High Street during the day to find their food and to

:22:49. > :22:52.shop generally, so they have a continuous life. And this Post

:22:53. > :22:55.Office is integral because it brings people into the community,

:22:56. > :23:00.especially elderly people, to the Post Office, and they will do

:23:01. > :23:04.shopping around that. So the High Street will continuously suffer from

:23:05. > :23:11.this. And as my honourable friend has said, there are really much

:23:12. > :23:16.better ways to do this. The absence of any sense of innovation inside

:23:17. > :23:21.Post Offices about this is quite remarkable. When you think they own

:23:22. > :23:25.some very prime sites. And these could be used in a flexible manner.

:23:26. > :23:30.One of the things that when I was leader I wanted to do was to

:23:31. > :23:34.persuade them to allow the organisation to use the Post Offices

:23:35. > :23:38.as part of the average, which I will suggest is another thought the

:23:39. > :23:41.Government needs to press again on because they were negative about

:23:42. > :23:45.that and really did not want when the time that. The idea that you can

:23:46. > :23:48.have terminals inside the Post Offices that people could receive

:23:49. > :23:54.reasonable advice from people in the Post Office about claims to do with

:23:55. > :23:58.their benefits, particularly the elderly, was an area where they

:23:59. > :24:02.could easily be utilised for further government activity beyond the other

:24:03. > :24:07.work they have done. And the banking side is another element. Clearly,

:24:08. > :24:12.five years ago, they were told by the Government that if they came

:24:13. > :24:15.back with positive responses about how to that banking facility, they

:24:16. > :24:22.would be hers reasonably. It took a year to return with no response

:24:23. > :24:25.whatsoever. Only to turn around and said, they really did not think it

:24:26. > :24:32.was at all feasible for them to do it. So all along, there has been a

:24:33. > :24:36.negativity from the Post Office about any idea, any use of their

:24:37. > :24:41.facilities for elements that they really genuinely could to increase

:24:42. > :24:46.their revenue and become more flexible. And in my community,

:24:47. > :24:50.nearly eight years ago, we lost a sub Post Office up the road in the

:24:51. > :24:54.High Street and we were told, don't worry, the Crown Post Office will

:24:55. > :24:58.take all that business. And now we find the Crown Post Office is about

:24:59. > :25:02.to close, leaving us without any postal services in that area. I am

:25:03. > :25:06.the community and the unions are absolutely adamant that this is the

:25:07. > :25:09.wrong way to go and they must think again. And I think they have to be

:25:10. > :25:17.more flexible and more reasonable, and I call on them to do just that.

:25:18. > :25:22.Alistair Carmichael. I congratulate the honourable member for

:25:23. > :25:29.contributing to this debate and to all his colleagues from the

:25:30. > :25:35.backbench Business Committee. Post Offices and sub Post Offices are

:25:36. > :25:39.central to the life of so many of our small, raw and village

:25:40. > :25:45.communities. But that is very much the case and as we now see the

:25:46. > :25:51.withdrawal of other services such as clearing banks from small

:25:52. > :25:54.communities, that is a problem that will only grow. Maintaining a

:25:55. > :26:00.vibrant and viable network of sub Post Offices across smaller and more

:26:01. > :26:04.raw communities is now more important than it has ever been. In

:26:05. > :26:08.my time in Parliament, I have seen a large number of Post Office

:26:09. > :26:10.closures. Although whenever there is a structural programme of closures,

:26:11. > :26:14.we generally do quite well out of it we generally do quite well out of it

:26:15. > :26:20.and we do not see that many Post Offices close because we have a

:26:21. > :26:25.small population spread over a large area of the rain. But what you have

:26:26. > :26:30.seen is this constant process of attrition where time after time, at

:26:31. > :26:35.see sub Post Offices closing temporarily because the person

:26:36. > :26:45.running them is retired or has moved away or simply just got fed up and

:26:46. > :26:48.who can blame them? There is one to open in Orkney, it has been a

:26:49. > :26:55.Herculean effort to find somebody to take that on but it does show it has

:26:56. > :26:58.possibilities if the community is willing, with the willingness of a

:26:59. > :27:02.handful of people to make it work and it is still possible to achieve

:27:03. > :27:05.that. It is very difficult to make a sub Post Office work as a

:27:06. > :27:11.stand-alone business and for that reason, the two left are generally

:27:12. > :27:17.folded into shops, garages, cafes and other places. This, I think, is

:27:18. > :27:22.good for these businesses, but it does I think require a bit more

:27:23. > :27:26.flexibility and sensitivity on the part of the Post Office. I think of

:27:27. > :27:30.the example of the second largest town in Orkney which for years had a

:27:31. > :27:34.stand-alone sub Post Office but when that was no longer able to continue,

:27:35. > :27:39.it was moved into a baker's and general store where the community

:27:40. > :27:48.just does not feel comfortable despite the best efforts of the shop

:27:49. > :27:49.owner with people on one side of the counters the next somebody buying

:27:50. > :28:01.their messages on the other. The Post Office needs to provide for

:28:02. > :28:05.people willing to provide a service. In Orkney there is a great little

:28:06. > :28:09.local shop which also includes the Post Office. They tell me they have

:28:10. > :28:15.probably lost about one month of Post Office business because of poor

:28:16. > :28:21.connectivity. The broadband connection that is necessary to run

:28:22. > :28:27.a sub Post Office is so unreliable. That obviously has more to do with

:28:28. > :28:32.BT open reach and the providers of the Internet services for the Post

:28:33. > :28:36.Office is and their ability to speak to each other. It is an example of

:28:37. > :28:40.one area where if the Post Office took a more proactive role in

:28:41. > :28:47.supporting the sub postmaster 's and mistresses, they could make a real

:28:48. > :28:52.difference. A small country shopping Orkney talking to BT will get

:28:53. > :28:54.treated like a small shop. A big organisation like the Post Office

:28:55. > :29:01.would be listened to and taken much more seriously. In that practical

:29:02. > :29:04.sense, they would be able to support people who are providing one of the

:29:05. > :29:09.most important services the communities I have been privileged

:29:10. > :29:13.to represent have been for years and for that reason I hope the minister

:29:14. > :29:17.will take to the Post Office management the message that should

:29:18. > :29:22.be their priority. Richard Bacon. Pleasure to serve under your

:29:23. > :29:24.chairmanship. I congratulate the member for East Worthing and

:29:25. > :29:34.Shoreham airshow in securing this debate. -- in securing this debate.

:29:35. > :29:38.This is a geographically central area I represent where 10,000 local

:29:39. > :29:41.residents, more than twice the number of people on the electoral

:29:42. > :29:48.roll the time will come Royal Anglian Regiment home after their

:29:49. > :29:53.tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is at the heart of the community. And

:29:54. > :29:58.in particular at the heart of not only the current geographical

:29:59. > :30:06.centre, but even more at the centre of what will be the regenerated area

:30:07. > :30:14.with the project, a ?3 million regeneration, which includes 1.6

:30:15. > :30:18.million, ?1.65 million of Heritage lottery funding. Part of the scheme

:30:19. > :30:22.is to relocate some facilities in the town including the tourist

:30:23. > :30:26.information office further north from where they are now, away from

:30:27. > :30:31.the supermarkets on the fringes and towards the centre of the town. The

:30:32. > :30:38.proposal to close the Crown Post Office cuts completely against this

:30:39. > :30:41.project. It is no WH Smith has taken an interest in taking on, has

:30:42. > :30:47.expressed an interest in taking on the franchise, but the WH Smith

:30:48. > :30:51.branch here must be one of the smallest in the country, going up

:30:52. > :30:54.very narrow steps, through a narrow door, in fact two either side of the

:30:55. > :30:58.shop window but they are not remotely suitable for disabled

:30:59. > :31:01.access and nothing that could be done would make a serious

:31:02. > :31:06.difference. When you get inside the footprint of the store is very

:31:07. > :31:10.small. My local district council has itself invested ?400,000 of

:31:11. > :31:16.taxpayers money in the heritage Triangle project. Paragraph 2.32 of

:31:17. > :31:20.the South Norfolk local plan refers to a need to protect primary

:31:21. > :31:25.shopping centres, including specifically the Heritage Triangle.

:31:26. > :31:31.The proposal to transfer the Post Office to the WH Smith branch, apart

:31:32. > :31:34.from the problems of accessibility further to the south, would put the

:31:35. > :31:37.Post Office on the wrong side of town to the detriment of public

:31:38. > :31:41.investment in restoring the old town centre. It would also mean many

:31:42. > :31:47.public events such as the welcome home parade I referred to would take

:31:48. > :31:51.place instead of the background of a vibrant public building which is

:31:52. > :31:54.heavily used and it seems surprising to me and other members have made

:31:55. > :31:59.this point that it is not possible that possible for it to be

:32:00. > :32:01.profitable. I find it almost impossible to believe, frankly. It

:32:02. > :32:05.would mean public events take place including the annual Remembrance Day

:32:06. > :32:09.parade against the background of a redundant building, as there is no

:32:10. > :32:17.word on what the counters would do with the building. It would have a

:32:18. > :32:22.damaging effect by counteracting a significant public investment in a

:32:23. > :32:25.project specifically aimed at retiring -- providing the town

:32:26. > :32:34.centre. The current proposal by the Post Office to relocate is in the

:32:35. > :32:37.wrong place and wrong premises and against the trend of local public

:32:38. > :32:41.investment aimed at securing regeneration in one of our finest

:32:42. > :32:46.market towns dumber which has some of the oldest town records in the

:32:47. > :32:51.country. -- market towns, which has some of the oldest town records in

:32:52. > :32:54.the country. It should have a successful Crown Post Office at its

:32:55. > :32:58.heart. I hope the Minister will take these points to the Post Office and

:32:59. > :33:03.not only explain the point of my honourable friend about a more

:33:04. > :33:06.proactive approach but there are certain offices where their

:33:07. > :33:13.proposals are wholly unsuitable. We need and deserve something better.

:33:14. > :33:16.Sir Edward... The move of the motion was absolutely right in his

:33:17. > :33:20.thoughtful speech when he said there would be a repetition about many of

:33:21. > :33:27.the issues but also we would concentrate on the local area. Post

:33:28. > :33:30.offices are the heart of our community and vital for businesses

:33:31. > :33:35.and local communities themselves. The Isle of Anglesey, the beautiful

:33:36. > :33:41.Isle of Anglesey is well-known to the member for Chingford, I know. It

:33:42. > :33:46.has a market town. In 2014 the Post Office tried to close it down and go

:33:47. > :33:50.out to franchise. There was no suitable premises. Nothing has

:33:51. > :33:57.changed. Yet the Post Office has comeback repeating the same measures

:33:58. > :34:01.to close it down. It is a purpose-built building, in the

:34:02. > :34:05.centre of the town, it has access outside for buses and elderly people

:34:06. > :34:10.to access. It is perfect. When we had a previous closure of the sub

:34:11. > :34:16.post offices in the rural areas we were told this Crown Post Office was

:34:17. > :34:22.the hub of the whole area. Now they want to close it down. The Post

:34:23. > :34:25.Office is not listening. They need to start listening to local

:34:26. > :34:31.communities, local businesses will stop what we are seeing across the

:34:32. > :34:36.country is not just Post Office closures but mass bank closures, as

:34:37. > :34:40.well. Local businesses are finding it difficult to do cash handling,

:34:41. > :34:46.difficult to run their businesses and when the Post Offices closes the

:34:47. > :34:50.Crown Post Office down, empty buildings in the areas were a lot

:34:51. > :34:55.has been spent on regeneration is the legacy. It is

:34:56. > :35:00.counter-productive. I know the Minister is as anxious as we are

:35:01. > :35:03.that it does not happen. But we need a proactive government and proactive

:35:04. > :35:09.Post Office. We need to look at innovation. We need to look at the

:35:10. > :35:14.brand, improve the brand and improve the products of the Post Office.

:35:15. > :35:20.There are great opportunities to do that. We are talking at a time of

:35:21. > :35:27.mass bank closures. I suggest to the Minister she listens to the union,

:35:28. > :35:30.who is proposing a post bank. It would help all loans for local

:35:31. > :35:36.businesses in the area. We have been through a financial difficulty

:35:37. > :35:40.globally and local banks were not facilitating local businesses in the

:35:41. > :35:45.way they should. I do believe in a mixed economy. I do believe when the

:35:46. > :35:51.Government has a stake in the Post Office as it does, it should

:35:52. > :35:56.intervene in a semblance of all -- sensible way with a Post Office

:35:57. > :36:00.bank. Because this is a market town in my constituency where people come

:36:01. > :36:05.on a regular basis to do their business, and do their trade. It is

:36:06. > :36:09.historic but modern, as well. They do it in a more digital way these

:36:10. > :36:14.days. But again has the member for Orkney said, there are poorer

:36:15. > :36:19.broadband facilities. We need to improve infrastructure and Post

:36:20. > :36:24.Offices and start listening to local businesses and communities. Because

:36:25. > :36:30.of these closures of Post Offices and banks are ripping the heart out

:36:31. > :36:34.of local communities. The government rightly talks about localism. Local

:36:35. > :36:40.people, local businesses, they do not want this closure programme.

:36:41. > :36:44.They firmly oppose it. We as representatives, it is not the first

:36:45. > :36:47.time I have stood up my constituency, we want the Post

:36:48. > :36:51.Office to work. We wanted to work for our communities, for how

:36:52. > :36:56.businesses and for the future. I urge the Minister to look closely at

:36:57. > :37:01.the union proposals. Let's have a Post Office doing what it used to do

:37:02. > :37:05.when I was a kid, at savings banks and help businesses in the

:37:06. > :37:08.communities. That is the way forward and I hope the Minister will take

:37:09. > :37:14.that on board on behalf of the people. I'm afraid -- I'm afraid

:37:15. > :37:19.three more people are putting in, I have to reduce it again to three

:37:20. > :37:25.minutes. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. I want to

:37:26. > :37:35.raise three Post Offices in my area. The first one half opened for two

:37:36. > :37:40.days a week and sadly the announcement was made on social

:37:41. > :37:48.media before the consultation with the local community, but it is

:37:49. > :37:51.welcome. But this town of Lostwithiel is going to lose its

:37:52. > :37:55.permanent bank and it is having a mobile banking service for two

:37:56. > :38:00.sessions a week and there is no bus service. I am asking the Minister

:38:01. > :38:05.today, I am pleading with the Minister today, to do everything she

:38:06. > :38:12.possibly can to make sure my constituents in this town, bereft of

:38:13. > :38:18.vital public services, can have a permanent Post Office again. It is

:38:19. > :38:21.an agent Stanbury town. It has a lot of antique businesses and local

:38:22. > :38:30.businesses, privately owned as this is. They need a Post Office service.

:38:31. > :38:34.-- privately owned businesses. With hours serving everybody in the

:38:35. > :38:39.community, especially workers. In another situation we have had a

:38:40. > :38:45.little bit of a reprieve where my late husband was a fisherman, in

:38:46. > :38:49.lieu. We saw the Post Office closed in the east. Fortunately, like

:38:50. > :38:54.Lostwithiel with their two sessions, a hard-working postmaster from

:38:55. > :39:01.another village has come in and taken over. And they have a slight

:39:02. > :39:07.reprieve. Working closely with my local councillors and candidates we

:39:08. > :39:11.have secured a temporary reprieve. But we need a permanent solution in

:39:12. > :39:16.Looe, as well. It is a major tourist town. If tourists come they do not

:39:17. > :39:22.want to go to a town where they cannot access Post Office services.

:39:23. > :39:28.And in Torpoint, in my constituency, close to my home town, we have had

:39:29. > :39:32.the bank close, people have been told to use banking services, they

:39:33. > :39:37.can go to the Post Office, or they could make a three-hour round-trip

:39:38. > :39:43.to bank their money. Somebody has looked on a map and actually

:39:44. > :39:49.measured the distance and not taken account of the fact that on their

:39:50. > :39:53.own peninsular you have 1.5 hours of a bus ride to access the alternative

:39:54. > :39:57.bank. The Post Office is already heavily used. People are very

:39:58. > :40:03.worried they will not be able to cope with the extra pressure. Can I

:40:04. > :40:07.please ask the Minister to take account of rural Post Office

:40:08. > :40:11.services in places like South East Cornwall, to make sure people get

:40:12. > :40:23.the service they want. Thank you very much. Carol Mona Hampel stop --

:40:24. > :40:28.Carol Mona Hammer. In the north-west of Glasgow, with a population of

:40:29. > :40:32.about 13,000, it was developed post war to move people from the urban

:40:33. > :40:37.slums to the outskirts of the city. Much of the housing was poor

:40:38. > :40:43.quality. Lack of amenities means there are serious social issues,

:40:44. > :40:49.many of which persist. Digital literacy is low and one in every two

:40:50. > :40:54.children here are living in poverty. There are one or two shops around

:40:55. > :41:00.the estate. But the heart of the town is a small shopping centre with

:41:01. > :41:04.an avenue Post Office located. There is a small Post Office counter have

:41:05. > :41:13.the opposite end of the estate but it offers a far reduced service. A

:41:14. > :41:19.quick check shows it offers drop and go and foreign currency. Compared

:41:20. > :41:22.with the main Post Office, which includes passport services, banking,

:41:23. > :41:29.car tax, travel insurance, bus tickets, to name but a view, this is

:41:30. > :41:33.of great importance when we consider the high number of people in the

:41:34. > :41:39.town not able to access the Internet. A recent study by citizens

:41:40. > :41:44.advice Scotland estimated 50% of people in areas of deprivation do

:41:45. > :41:52.not have Internet access. Many of the tasks we can do at home are not

:41:53. > :42:01.possible for many of the residents. I visited the avenue Post Office a

:42:02. > :42:04.number of times and I have listened to the concerns of residents. Some

:42:05. > :42:09.talks about travel issues to the next nearest Post Office. They said

:42:10. > :42:15.it will be difficult and for some disabled people it will be

:42:16. > :42:21.impossible. This is a busy Post Office with queues at the counter.

:42:22. > :42:27.The locals are feeling very strongly about this. I have a petition with

:42:28. > :42:33.640 signatures. And another 500 signatures from online. I will

:42:34. > :42:38.present this petition today. This is a Post Office at the heart of the

:42:39. > :42:44.local community. Its removal would be devastating for the area. It is

:42:45. > :42:50.more than just commercial viability. This is a key public service. It

:42:51. > :42:58.must be protected. I would like to ask the Minister, has there been an

:42:59. > :43:01.impact assessment done on this area? Has the mobility of residents been

:43:02. > :43:07.considered when we are looking at these closures? This must not go

:43:08. > :43:14.ahead. It will be devastating for this community.

:43:15. > :43:21.Thank you very much, Sir Edward. This was the first debate I had in

:43:22. > :43:26.my name in Westminster Hall when I was elected in 2015 and I vowed I

:43:27. > :43:31.would continue to speak on this. So I thank the honourable member for

:43:32. > :43:35.giving me that chance. For over a year in my constituency, 8,000

:43:36. > :43:40.residents were unable to access a Post Office in Heathfield because

:43:41. > :43:47.the previous landlord what the doors and refused to allow trading.

:43:48. > :43:51.Alternatives with suggested during that time but no business was

:43:52. > :43:57.willing to take the Post Office on. Can I use this opportunity to thank

:43:58. > :44:03.Mr Sanjiv Patel from Heathfield, who had the vision and took the risk and

:44:04. > :44:08.took the Post Office on? Almost 12 months on, that business is now

:44:09. > :44:13.thriving. I want to pay tribute to him for taking that risk, and I hope

:44:14. > :44:17.other Honourable Members will find entrepreneurs in their constituency

:44:18. > :44:24.willing to do likewise to solve the situation is they have outlined. Can

:44:25. > :44:30.I also perhaps at this juncture pay credit to Post Office business? In

:44:31. > :44:36.my constituency, I have 25 branches and as a result of collaboration, we

:44:37. > :44:40.have 17 branches which have received investment to modernise,

:44:41. > :44:46.transforming into either a Post Office main branch are local. I have

:44:47. > :44:50.six branches with community status being the last shop in the village

:44:51. > :44:55.and they have received access to investment funding. And in total, I

:44:56. > :45:00.have 600 additional branch opening hours per week and ten branches open

:45:01. > :45:04.on a Sunday. If only our GP surgeries could follow suit, Sir

:45:05. > :45:08.Edward. Sir Edward, I want to return to the three points mage during the

:45:09. > :45:13.debate which I think are important for reform. Firstly, the issues of

:45:14. > :45:16.consultations. Despite not having a Post Office or a single business

:45:17. > :45:20.willing to put themselves forward and having just one option,

:45:21. > :45:24.Heathfield still had to run a consultation exercise, which only

:45:25. > :45:27.delayed the inevitable decision to go with the one business willing to

:45:28. > :45:33.put themselves forward. Secondly, the point has been made as to

:45:34. > :45:41.whether a franchise such as bargain booze is suitable. It is an alcohol

:45:42. > :45:44.selling business but we have seen no noticeable impact is as a result and

:45:45. > :45:50.if they are willing to take the risk, I would support them. The Post

:45:51. > :45:54.Office is a financial services provider and given such a large part

:45:55. > :45:58.of the customer base is pensioners and we need more High Street

:45:59. > :46:04.providers to give equity release solutions to pensioners. Shall care,

:46:05. > :46:08.perhaps that is an obvious match. Finally, in a settlement with over

:46:09. > :46:12.5,000 residents who have received no Post Office for six months, I would

:46:13. > :46:17.like to see the Post Office provide the base and the postmaster for the

:46:18. > :46:22.future. Today's debate is not about being

:46:23. > :46:26.against change. Those of ours with concerns recognise the world is a

:46:27. > :46:30.very different place, our wages, nobody here did a degree with the

:46:31. > :46:35.help of Wikipedia and some of us have jumpers older than the

:46:36. > :46:40.internet. But it is the question about what drives those changes. I

:46:41. > :46:45.have seen them on the member for Chingford! It is about what drives

:46:46. > :46:49.those changes. Those of us on this side have a concern that if those

:46:50. > :46:53.changes are driven by the market alone, they rarely deliver for the

:46:54. > :46:58.public the best outcomes and often end up hitting the poorest hardest.

:46:59. > :47:00.Nowhere is that clearer than in the changes and the closures we have

:47:01. > :47:05.seen in our Post Office in the last couple of years, 40% have been in

:47:06. > :47:10.our urban and poorest communities like my own and we now have two Post

:47:11. > :47:14.Offices in Walthamstow threatened under this latest proposal. In the

:47:15. > :47:20.short time available, I want to flag up a couple of points, first, this

:47:21. > :47:23.is happening but not in a vacuum but against a backdrop about bank

:47:24. > :47:26.closures and I caution the member for sure because what we have seen

:47:27. > :47:31.with the closure of banks and services Post Offices provide, it is

:47:32. > :47:35.simply not the same for residents. You might be able to get money out

:47:36. > :47:41.but you can do precious little else. That matters in communities like

:47:42. > :47:45.mine. I also disagree with the member for a place I am sure is

:47:46. > :47:49.beautiful but I cannot remember the name, that he says he is happy to

:47:50. > :47:55.see franchises of everybody and anybody, I do not think we want

:47:56. > :47:59.shops with our stamps and I am concerned that with WH Smith, the

:48:00. > :48:04.services have deteriorated in terms of disabled access and queueing

:48:05. > :48:08.times. I will give way very quickly. I absolutely agree with the point

:48:09. > :48:12.she is making and in terms of new Crossgate Post Office, one thing I

:48:13. > :48:16.have been concerned about is I have not been able to get any figures

:48:17. > :48:20.around the profitability in terms of what the state is with the Post

:48:21. > :48:25.Office. And the Minister needs to make sure they get that information.

:48:26. > :48:33.I completely agree and for those facing closures like in Walthamstow

:48:34. > :48:38.and our main Post Office, what could an alternative future be, what could

:48:39. > :48:42.make them sustainable and not white elephants in the provision of public

:48:43. > :48:46.services but jewels in the crown? And that comes very much with the

:48:47. > :48:50.role of financial services. In particular, the missed opportunities

:48:51. > :48:54.with the linkup with organisations like credit unions. Some members

:48:55. > :48:59.opposite did not think DWP services should be part of our Post Office

:49:00. > :49:02.system, but there is an opportunity when it comes to financial services.

:49:03. > :49:06.This is a country where under banking is still a major problem. 2

:49:07. > :49:12.million people who have no access to a bank account. 8% of all 18 to

:49:13. > :49:17.19-year-olds. We know that is rising debt in our communities and we see

:49:18. > :49:24.it in surgeries and in places in London alone, we see people who just

:49:25. > :49:28.have too much and there are big increases in consumer spending so

:49:29. > :49:32.the credit union movement is never more needed and that is for me a

:49:33. > :49:35.missed opportunity. I want to hear the Minister say why in six years of

:49:36. > :49:39.the Government talking about working with credit unions, we have not seen

:49:40. > :49:43.that linkup with Post Office. The credit unions have done fantastic

:49:44. > :49:46.work uncovering the impact of these closures for communities like mine

:49:47. > :49:51.and they would support that kind of work. I know in my local area they

:49:52. > :49:54.have not even asked the credit union whether they could work with them

:49:55. > :49:58.when they are talking about closing my two local Post Offices and now

:49:59. > :50:04.they say the consultation is over, it is too late to start that

:50:05. > :50:07.conversation. We must not lose this opportunity to build the financial

:50:08. > :50:10.inclusion in our communities need by bringing those two services

:50:11. > :50:16.together. As the member for sure has pointed out, in France, there is a

:50:17. > :50:18.different future for Post Offices rooted in financial inclusion

:50:19. > :50:22.services. What is the Minister doing to bring credit unions and not Yager

:50:23. > :50:32.meisters into our communities to bring them a stable future? Very

:50:33. > :50:36.grateful to be called in to the honourable gentleman for bringing

:50:37. > :50:39.this important debate. I was the shadow Minister for postal services

:50:40. > :50:42.for most of the last Parliament and I was told by many ministers and

:50:43. > :50:45.government that this closure programme would be the last closure

:50:46. > :50:50.programme in order to make the Post Office sustainable, but it appears

:50:51. > :50:54.that is not to be the case. I remember the phrase in the

:50:55. > :50:57.Conservative Party manifesto of 2010, that the dusty tomb in the

:50:58. > :51:02.shelves of political history, that the Government would make the Post

:51:03. > :51:05.Office the front office of government, well, they have done

:51:06. > :51:10.little to do that and that has given a situation here today where we have

:51:11. > :51:13.a number Post Office closures and a number of Crown office closures

:51:14. > :51:18.including incredibly popular Morningside Post Office in my own

:51:19. > :51:23.constituency. I could be cynical having been in this place. In years,

:51:24. > :51:29.but I don't see the Morningside Post Office franchising its system about

:51:30. > :51:34.being franchising, it is about closing the Post Office. I remember

:51:35. > :51:37.doing a public meeting when the first Crown Post Office franchising

:51:38. > :51:43.policies were going through and Post Office was pressed on what would

:51:44. > :51:46.happen if nobody came forward to take on these Post Offices and the

:51:47. > :51:52.answer was, we will probably have too embarrassed in it. -- we will

:51:53. > :51:55.probably have to invest in it. So we should be investing in Post Offices

:51:56. > :51:59.to make them places on our high streets where people can use them

:52:00. > :52:03.and enjoy them and have the services we need. We have a crisis in our

:52:04. > :52:07.shopping streets, we have the clearing banks closing branches and

:52:08. > :52:11.if they clearing bank is posing a branch in the local High Street, you

:52:12. > :52:15.get a letter to say you can use the Post Office for the services they

:52:16. > :52:20.will no longer be supplying. We have local shops in trouble, we have pubs

:52:21. > :52:24.in trouble. The Post Office is that iconic thing in the High Street that

:52:25. > :52:28.drives football and the pride in the High Street and gives you stability

:52:29. > :52:33.in terms of the operations of the retail units. And as an aside, Sir

:52:34. > :52:38.Edward, what is not helping in terms of my High Street in my constituency

:52:39. > :52:42.is not just of potential closure of Morningside Post Office, but the

:52:43. > :52:49.rates have increased by some of the retailers by over 100%. That is

:52:50. > :52:53.surely unacceptable if we want our high streets... I would love to, but

:52:54. > :52:58.I think we was struggle in terms of time to get everybody else in. I

:52:59. > :53:02.have seen the financial figures for the Morningside Crown Post Office

:53:03. > :53:05.and it is financially unviable for anyone to take it on. It is

:53:06. > :53:10.financially viable for the Post Office to run it but not for anyone

:53:11. > :53:14.else to going with the capital and rental payments they require and to

:53:15. > :53:18.make that a sustainable business, which makes me suspicious it is just

:53:19. > :53:21.a vehicle for closing that Post Office. Time to make the Post Office

:53:22. > :53:26.the front office of government. And the Minister has divided by that and

:53:27. > :53:30.do something the previous government did not do, and invest in our Crown

:53:31. > :53:36.Post Offices. I am grateful to the honourable

:53:37. > :53:39.member for ensuring today's debate which is an extremely worthy subject

:53:40. > :53:45.given it could be one of the last we have in this Parliament. I would

:53:46. > :53:47.like to declare an interest, I am a proud trade unionist and the

:53:48. > :53:52.Communication Workers' Union have done as much as anyone on this issue

:53:53. > :53:54.and put it at the forefront of political debate and campaign in

:53:55. > :54:00.communities such as those I represent in Norwich South. I

:54:01. > :54:04.believe the Post Office is a vital public service. It is a vital

:54:05. > :54:08.service and this issue needs to be at the rally, not least because the

:54:09. > :54:15.job losses behind these closures and the substitution of jobs reads the

:54:16. > :54:22.insecurity. It shows the seeming contempt for those who have

:54:23. > :54:24.responded with consultations and donated time and expertise only to

:54:25. > :54:29.be met with silence by the Government, so perhaps the Minister

:54:30. > :54:33.could touch on the reasons for that. And not just because the closure of

:54:34. > :54:39.Crown branches is likely to have a negative impact on the Post Office

:54:40. > :54:45.overall and its revenue and might describe this as deliberate managed

:54:46. > :54:49.decline. A key issue that draws this together is this Government's

:54:50. > :54:54.attitude to communities around the country and those who live in them.

:54:55. > :54:57.When branches get closed franchise, the lives of many we represent get a

:54:58. > :55:03.little bit worse. The small amount of research we have on this points

:55:04. > :55:08.to the longer spent... Lower levels of expert advice and poorer disabled

:55:09. > :55:13.access, ensuring a poorer service. I feel we must add to this a third

:55:14. > :55:17.erosion and that is what it means to live in a vibrant community. A place

:55:18. > :55:22.that has resources and services not dependent simply on the ongoing

:55:23. > :55:26.assistance of WH Smith. A place where people and the details and

:55:27. > :55:30.experiences of their lives count. Where the expertise of those like

:55:31. > :55:34.postal workers is valued and we can rely on their support to run our

:55:35. > :55:38.businesses and sent parcels to our families and sent and received

:55:39. > :55:42.votes. And we do so in the knowledge to those serving as can fully

:55:43. > :55:46.participate in our community. That those with disabilities can also be

:55:47. > :55:53.part of this normal life. Every week, we make 70 million visits to

:55:54. > :55:56.two Post Offices. This is not a niche activity, it is part of

:55:57. > :55:59.ordinary life, and chipping away at this is yet another example of this

:56:00. > :56:05.Government dinning out everyday life. These are policy choices and

:56:06. > :56:13.we rode them and the quality of many people's lives when we make them. --

:56:14. > :56:17.we erode them. We have seen the decline of a Great British

:56:18. > :56:22.institution over a long period of time and one which the public are

:56:23. > :56:25.very attached to on practical grounds. There has been a radical

:56:26. > :56:30.shift in the delivery of postal services and not for the good, there

:56:31. > :56:33.has been a contraction by about half over a period of time and a

:56:34. > :56:37.withdrawal of government support. Years ago, there was a major closure

:56:38. > :56:42.of sub Post Offices and at least on that occasion, there were eight sub

:56:43. > :56:47.Post Offices threatened with closure in my borough and five of those were

:56:48. > :56:50.kept open by a very vigorous campaign and made into a viable

:56:51. > :56:54.working network. What has unfortunately happened since is a

:56:55. > :56:59.success of government promised there would be no further closures and

:57:00. > :57:04.that is almost as bad because main Post Offices are moving the less

:57:05. > :57:11.good sites because they are cheaper. And one temporary closure sometimes

:57:12. > :57:15.amounts the years. Let me explain by what is happening at the moment to

:57:16. > :57:21.Shepherd's Bush, the town centre in my constituency. There is the last

:57:22. > :57:25.of our Crown Post Offices and it is very busy with queues out of the

:57:26. > :57:29.door, the staff are very good and even quite famous and feature in the

:57:30. > :57:33.columns of the comedian Richard Herring is a regular user of that

:57:34. > :57:37.Post Office. That is being forced out of its premises and I spent many

:57:38. > :57:42.hours trying to negotiate going to location in the town centre in the

:57:43. > :57:48.shopping centre, but it is going into the Westfield regional shopping

:57:49. > :57:54.centre which is very inaccessible to local people. Because it will go to

:57:55. > :57:59.the back of a WH Smith branch. The WH Smith deal is good for the Post

:58:00. > :58:03.Office and it is cheap space and it increases for fall, but it is not

:58:04. > :58:08.good for customers and therefore we have, I am pleased to say we are

:58:09. > :58:12.retaining our last sub Crown Post Office but in a mile -- in a less

:58:13. > :58:18.satisfactory way. The concession the Post Office has made is to provide a

:58:19. > :58:20.new sub Post Office in the town centre Shepherd's Bush but

:58:21. > :58:28.unfortunately I see little prospect of finding a location because the

:58:29. > :58:34.two nearest sub Post Offices have been closed once since last year and

:58:35. > :58:40.140 macro years on Saint and's Road, most of them serving large and very

:58:41. > :58:45.deprived communities and growing communities because there is a lot

:58:46. > :58:50.of poverty in the area. So I fail to see what is going wrong here. We

:58:51. > :58:53.must have a continuing network, we cannot have these temporary

:58:54. > :58:57.closures, they are happening is because the offer made to shops and

:58:58. > :59:01.existing sub postmasters will simply not good enough. And as other

:59:02. > :59:05.members have said, it is part of the decline of our high streets, the

:59:06. > :59:06.loss of banks, the loss of markets and the loss of everything that

:59:07. > :59:17.local people need to rely on. The Post Office in Stockton high

:59:18. > :59:22.street in 2014 was downgraded to a lesser franchise branch and buried

:59:23. > :59:27.away inside a WH Smith 's store. I likened it to privatisation at the

:59:28. > :59:32.time through the back door, ignoring the consultation that took place and

:59:33. > :59:34.put staff at of losing employment. Last year a Post Office was

:59:35. > :59:39.franchised and moved half a mile away from the high street, again

:59:40. > :59:44.buried inside another shop. In January this year the Post Office

:59:45. > :59:48.announced it would close the Billingham crown office branch

:59:49. > :59:52.making another franchise. It is more than a bit ironic that in the last

:59:53. > :59:56.few days I was briefed by the Post Office, talking about bank closures

:59:57. > :00:01.and how they can feel the service gap. The member for East Worthing

:00:02. > :00:05.and sure talk about the opportunities are there. Without a

:00:06. > :00:17.robust network they cannot deliver their usual services, never mind

:00:18. > :00:25.others on the heart of the banks -- never mind on behalf of the banks. I

:00:26. > :00:30.think the Government should adopt their recommendations, confirming

:00:31. > :00:33.appropriate funding, to keep the current network as well as raise

:00:34. > :00:39.awareness around public consultation regarding the closures and

:00:40. > :00:47.franchising branches. The union sent me a great brief, underlining key

:00:48. > :00:51.issues. I also support the idea of a post-bank which they have written to

:00:52. > :00:53.me about. They talk about the impact on customers, queue times, service

:00:54. > :01:00.times, disabled access, customer service. Replacing good jobs with

:01:01. > :01:04.insecurity. The majority of staff in the crown office will leave when it

:01:05. > :01:11.closes. The use of public money, the Post Office will not confirm how

:01:12. > :01:15.much is given to retailers, like WHSmith, so maybe the Minister can

:01:16. > :01:18.enlighten us. There is the wider social and economic impact. The loss

:01:19. > :01:24.of jobs and removing the physical shop from the high street. These are

:01:25. > :01:31.valid points. If we do not challenge these proposed changes and closures

:01:32. > :01:34.then every major community in my constituency has seen their post of

:01:35. > :01:40.his downgraded, if we do not fight against it will be detrimental for

:01:41. > :01:43.our constituents. I hope the Minister will rattle some pages

:01:44. > :01:48.here. Thank you. I congratulate the honourable gentleman for bringing it

:01:49. > :01:53.forward and setting the scene so well and getting us all a chance to

:01:54. > :01:57.speak. As an advocate of the Post Offices, as I represent a community

:01:58. > :02:02.that has long been concerned about the isolation and rely on the Post

:02:03. > :02:11.Office, this reliance is specifically created in Strangford

:02:12. > :02:15.because the banks are closing there. As the banks are closing they say

:02:16. > :02:18.they are going to use the local Post Offices and then they close and

:02:19. > :02:22.people jump on the bus and go on long journeys already on public

:02:23. > :02:26.transport to towns to access their banking. The news the Post Office

:02:27. > :02:30.will close at 37 of the biggest branches, leaving more than 300

:02:31. > :02:34.people out of a job in January was shocking and not expected. The

:02:35. > :02:39.branches are being franchised out and the idea is to keep services

:02:40. > :02:43.where customers want to meet them. It does follow on from operating in

:02:44. > :02:46.Rowell areas where large Post Offices are under pressure and it

:02:47. > :02:52.does not speak well for smaller Post Offices. In the five-day strike by

:02:53. > :02:56.members of a referred to jobs, pensions, branch closures and the

:02:57. > :03:03.proposed closure of my local branch. The fact the Post Office is talking

:03:04. > :03:11.about 37 partners as part of efforts to secure the services around the

:03:12. > :03:18.job concerns workers have. Everyone of us as MPs have been fighting hard

:03:19. > :03:22.for their Post Offices and we are talking about some 50% in the last

:03:23. > :03:26.30 years of closures. People are not certain as to where they will be

:03:27. > :03:32.employed and they need more security for current staff. Morale levels are

:03:33. > :03:35.at a critical level. I call on the Government to respond as a major

:03:36. > :03:39.stakeholder and invest in the Post Offices. I look to the Minister for

:03:40. > :03:42.a response to make sure this threat of closure does not continue an

:03:43. > :03:48.investment is made to enhance, not cut services. I received order of

:03:49. > :03:52.the strike action which would affect my area. As you will be aware, the

:03:53. > :04:00.union has called for further strike action on the 19th, 30th and 24th of

:04:01. > :04:04.December in three managed offices and on the cash distribution

:04:05. > :04:09.operation. People are working on 90 some percent of the network, 30,000

:04:10. > :04:13.individuals working in independently run Post Offices will not be

:04:14. > :04:19.involved in the industrial action. These are not currency figures.

:04:20. > :04:25.These are people working hard to pay their mortgage. I ask the

:04:26. > :04:28.Government... Not just for the workers and the Post Office but for

:04:29. > :04:33.those that use the Post Office in Strangford and the peninsular and

:04:34. > :04:37.the whole of the United Kingdom of this great nation of Great Britain

:04:38. > :04:44.and Northern Ireland. Thank you, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve

:04:45. > :04:47.under your chairmanship. I thank the honourable member for Shoreham

:04:48. > :04:52.Airshow, etc, for bringing this debate to the House. It is testament

:04:53. > :04:56.to how passionate people feel in the last week of this parliament that so

:04:57. > :05:01.many members are here fighting for their local communities. I expected

:05:02. > :05:05.to walk into almost an empty room. I am amazed and delighted so many

:05:06. > :05:08.people are here. It is the second time I have spoken about this. I

:05:09. > :05:13.could not possibly sum up everything everybody said. But I can give

:05:14. > :05:18.examples from my own area where Motherwell is losing its current

:05:19. > :05:22.Post Office. It is situated in the town centre at Motherwell. And the

:05:23. > :05:27.number of businesses that will be affected if the closure goes ahead

:05:28. > :05:32.is incalculable. People go to the town centre to get to the Post

:05:33. > :05:36.Office, get their pension, spend money and we do not have a WH in

:05:37. > :05:43.Motherwell any more. We did not have one in Wishaw either. -- WHSmith in

:05:44. > :05:49.Motherwell. And the Wishaw Post Office closed years ago. We see the

:05:50. > :05:54.effect that had. It was relocated into a nice shop, a good shop, but

:05:55. > :05:59.unfortunately it was not designed to be a Post Office. Access is

:06:00. > :06:05.difficult. Queues snaked around effectively the old Woolworths. It

:06:06. > :06:14.does not work. We are really concerned. The C W U tried to save

:06:15. > :06:19.the Motherwell Crown Post Office and I myself conducted a survey of

:06:20. > :06:24.customers. They were all absolutely incandescent. 84% of the people I

:06:25. > :06:30.spoke to said they used the Post Office every week. And they have to

:06:31. > :06:34.queue up. People said if they lose this Post Office, small businesses

:06:35. > :06:38.especially who use their services will be hugely affected. They do not

:06:39. > :06:45.know where they will go. Because again we are losing out in the area.

:06:46. > :06:50.We are losing banks in the area. That is not what these small

:06:51. > :06:52.businesses want. They want to use banking services within the Post

:06:53. > :06:57.Office and do postal worker at the same time. Because so many of them

:06:58. > :07:03.rely on the Post Office to get things out to customers. It is

:07:04. > :07:06.really disturbing that the Government has said and claimed they

:07:07. > :07:13.would use the Post Offices as the front office for government. That

:07:14. > :07:15.has not happened. Speaking to the postmasters and post mistresses, the

:07:16. > :07:20.loss of government business has affected the business generally. I

:07:21. > :07:25.could not find any figures about Motherwell Crown Post Office. Its

:07:26. > :07:31.turnover and why it was being picked. I was told it was

:07:32. > :07:35.confidential commercially. If some people are getting, some members

:07:36. > :07:40.have access to information, why can't all members access this kind

:07:41. > :07:46.of information? It is not right. At the end of the day, we need to keep

:07:47. > :07:51.our Post Offices. We have lost a number of sub branches that have

:07:52. > :07:57.moved from very assessable and very local places further out into

:07:58. > :08:00.estates, housing schemes, which are not assessable for the majority of

:08:01. > :08:08.people. They sued the people that are there. Into the local

:08:09. > :08:15.convenience store. But they do not suit people... -- they suit the

:08:16. > :08:18.people that are there. It was right where the local authority has

:08:19. > :08:23.hundreds of workers. They cannot access either a Post Office if they

:08:24. > :08:27.close the one in the main town centre. It is going to be an

:08:28. > :08:34.absolute loss of work for those in that Post Office and for people and

:08:35. > :08:38.businesses around it. I feel very strongly about this and I am very

:08:39. > :08:46.glad to hear such cross-party support against this round of

:08:47. > :08:51.closures and the effect it has on the poorest in our communities, who

:08:52. > :08:56.use the Post Office the most. The most elderly in our communities, who

:08:57. > :09:03.use Post Offices the most. I would ask the Minister to come back and

:09:04. > :09:15.put pressure on the Post Office to absolutely halt this latest round of

:09:16. > :09:20.closures. Thank you, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve under your

:09:21. > :09:26.chairperson ship. I congratulate the member for Worthing and sure for

:09:27. > :09:31.securing this debate. I pay tribute to the Communication Workers Union,

:09:32. > :09:36.who have helped to highlight these issues among the public and MPs, as

:09:37. > :09:40.well. The Post Office is a trusted national brand with a long history

:09:41. > :09:45.and it is instantly recognisable to people all across the UK. It forms a

:09:46. > :09:51.part of the everyday fabric of life, offering a wide range of products

:09:52. > :09:55.and services. It also provides an anchor for communities, decent jobs

:09:56. > :10:00.and important access to services in rural and urban deprived areas.

:10:01. > :10:04.Instead of making the Post Office bit for purpose for the 21st

:10:05. > :10:09.century, this government has let it fall by the wayside and has only

:10:10. > :10:14.contributed to a managed decline of a well loved and trusted

:10:15. > :10:18.institution. This government is intent on the privatisation of

:10:19. > :10:23.public services. The government used to say it would support a robust

:10:24. > :10:28.Post Office. A former prime ministers said it would be the front

:10:29. > :10:34.of office for government. -- a former prime minister. They have

:10:35. > :10:37.instead overseen a strategy of cuts costing thousands of job losses, as

:10:38. > :10:42.well as a decline in services provided. The Labour Party is clear,

:10:43. > :10:47.we will hold further privatisation and instead invest 80 million of

:10:48. > :10:52.public money already going in to make sure the sustainability of

:10:53. > :10:59.branches and services, ensuring services are retained and promoted

:11:00. > :11:02.and expanding the click and collect facilities, as well as providing

:11:03. > :11:09.banking and financial services, which we know are so vital to those

:11:10. > :11:16.who are financially excluded. In 2016, there were 62 closures and

:11:17. > :11:19.franchising programmes and 500 job losses from the cash handling

:11:20. > :11:26.section. More than 2000 jobs have been lost in total since 2016. On

:11:27. > :11:30.January the tenth in 2017 it was announced another 37 Crown Post

:11:31. > :11:38.Offices were going under the same franchising system. It could see 300

:11:39. > :11:44.experienced Post Office staff and 127 financial specialist roles

:11:45. > :11:47.across the network go. Crown Post Offices are typically run by the

:11:48. > :11:55.Post Office and directly employ staff. Often they are located in

:11:56. > :11:59.prominent high streets. Despite only 286 of all Post Offices being Crown

:12:00. > :12:05.branches, they have brought in a significant amount of revenue,

:12:06. > :12:09.between ten and 20% of the Post Office revenue overall. By

:12:10. > :12:13.privatising the officers, or transferring into retail shops like

:12:14. > :12:19.WH Smiths, this massively copra misers the services provided. For

:12:20. > :12:24.example, the consumer satisfaction falls overall. -- compromises

:12:25. > :12:28.services provided. Longer servicing time and poor access for disabled

:12:29. > :12:33.customers. We know the right 10% fewer counters per branch in WHSmith

:12:34. > :12:39.branches than Crown Post Offices and 17% less foreign currency and

:12:40. > :12:43.business banking positions. We know at least 30 postmasters retail

:12:44. > :12:50.businesses in a bargain boozed franchise. Not all franchises will

:12:51. > :12:54.have worse provision than before. The overall trend is saddening.

:12:55. > :12:59.Recent research shows that Post Office continues to deliver more

:13:00. > :13:05.than 4 billion in social value each year to people and businesses

:13:06. > :13:15.throughout the UK. Will my honourable friend give way?

:13:16. > :13:20.She has highlighted how when the Post Office and WH Smith, the

:13:21. > :13:27.service deteriorate but when you add on to the fact that some of these

:13:28. > :13:33.are in deprived communities, that puts people in dire straits. I

:13:34. > :13:38.completely agree with the honourable member. It is very saddening people

:13:39. > :13:44.in deprived areas just get further and further away from the wider part

:13:45. > :13:57.of accessing financial services which are so necessary to them.

:13:58. > :14:02.Since the privatisation of the Royal Mail, the government promised a

:14:03. > :14:07.transformative vision for the post office, a genuine office of the

:14:08. > :14:10.government, and for a significant expansion of its banking services

:14:11. > :14:13.but we have seen neither of these promises bail through. The post

:14:14. > :14:19.offers revenues from government services has fallen by some 40% and

:14:20. > :14:23.secondly, income from financial services has risen only by 2%, which

:14:24. > :14:26.isn't even keeping up with inflation. The Government talk

:14:27. > :14:33.cost-cutting measures but we know that 3.3 million was spent on

:14:34. > :14:40.refurbishing branches that were then franchised in 2016 at an average

:14:41. > :14:42.cost of 100,000 per branch. I was pleased that the government had

:14:43. > :14:50.initiated a consultation on the post office last December. At that time,

:14:51. > :14:54.the CW you delivered 75,000 postcards signed by members of the

:14:55. > :15:02.public calling to save the post office, the people's post. Only

:15:03. > :15:04.weeks later the post office announced 37 more Crown Post Office

:15:05. > :15:09.closures before consultation was even produced. Nearly five months

:15:10. > :15:15.later and we are still awaiting the government's response to that. In

:15:16. > :15:18.conclusion, the Government's track record has shown it to be a

:15:19. > :15:22.government happy to cut public spending at any cost. At a shied

:15:23. > :15:28.away from communicating with those affected. The consultation closed on

:15:29. > :15:31.December 21 has been delayed. Will the Minister tell the House when she

:15:32. > :15:36.had planned to publish the Government's response? Why have

:15:37. > :15:48.financial services been cut instead of promoting them? Why have we not

:15:49. > :15:54.looked at the example of a foreign example which has been so successful

:15:55. > :15:57.in providing revenue for the government but in providing services

:15:58. > :16:01.for those who need them most. I really would like to know what

:16:02. > :16:05.contingency planning there is for franchises that are already there

:16:06. > :16:10.and coming up for renewal as well as any new franchises, because the

:16:11. > :16:14.association of convenience stores have got major problems with their

:16:15. > :16:23.members who, due to the hike in business rates, may not wish to

:16:24. > :16:30.provide ongoing franchise services or actually want to carry on in

:16:31. > :16:33.future. Thank you. Thank you, Sir Edward. That is a pleasure to serve

:16:34. > :16:38.under your chairmanship and I would like to congratulate the honourable

:16:39. > :16:42.member for East Worthing and Shoreham for securing this crucial

:16:43. > :16:47.debate this morning, and the attendance here today and the

:16:48. > :16:51.passion with which members have spoken about their local areas and

:16:52. > :16:56.the value of the post office in their local areas shows just what an

:16:57. > :16:59.important topic this is, which will be, I suspect, for several of us

:17:00. > :17:05.here, our last debate in this Parliament. The Government certainly

:17:06. > :17:09.recognises the crucial role post offices play in communities across

:17:10. > :17:14.the country and between 2010 and 2018, the Government will have

:17:15. > :17:18.provided almost ?2 billion to maintain, modernise and protect a

:17:19. > :17:26.network of at least 11,500 branches across the country. The honourable

:17:27. > :17:33.member talks about post office closures. There are over 11,600 post

:17:34. > :17:38.office branches now in the UK and the network across the country is at

:17:39. > :17:43.its most stable for decades. Had experienced a substantial decline in

:17:44. > :17:50.numbers in the 13 or so years before 2010 and the number since 2010 has

:17:51. > :17:57.been kept absolutely stable, and the graph shows that to be absolutely

:17:58. > :18:00.accurate. And that really is down to the transformation and modernisation

:18:01. > :18:05.of the network, thanks to the investment that taxpayers have made.

:18:06. > :18:08.I thank my honourable friend for East Worthing and Shaw for his

:18:09. > :18:14.positive remarks about that network transformation programme and just to

:18:15. > :18:19.summarise, it has secured the transformation of more than 7000

:18:20. > :18:23.branches and I'm sure I'm not alone as a constituency MP in having felt

:18:24. > :18:30.and seen the benefits of those transformations in my own branches.

:18:31. > :18:34.More than 4300 branches now open on Sundays. There are nearly 1 million

:18:35. > :18:43.more additional opening hours to be added to the network every month and

:18:44. > :18:47.losses have been reduced from ?120 million to ?24 million. That is a

:18:48. > :18:49.substantial result on the past of -- the part of the post office

:18:50. > :18:54.management and the workers in the post office network. The subsidy

:18:55. > :19:01.that taxpayers have been obliged to put in during this period has fallen

:19:02. > :19:07.by 60% since 2012, and that's why it is more stable than it has been in a

:19:08. > :19:11.generation and the post office has managed those transformations whilst

:19:12. > :19:16.achieving customer satisfaction levels that have remained at over 95

:19:17. > :19:23.cents this programme. I will give way once, because time... I've only

:19:24. > :19:28.got ten minutes. I'm grateful to have a giving waited up she talks of

:19:29. > :19:32.most of the 60% reduction in taxpayer subsidy. Doesn't she think

:19:33. > :19:37.it would be better for the taxpayer to invest in our services like post

:19:38. > :19:40.offices and maybe prevent some of these quotas and downgrading and

:19:41. > :19:48.their four maintain services for these communities? I agree with him

:19:49. > :19:52.that we need to invest in the postal service and we are investing in the

:19:53. > :19:56.Postal Service and I hope that we will continue to do so but I'm

:19:57. > :20:01.afraid that one of the aspects of investment does involve making the

:20:02. > :20:07.existing structure of Crown Post Office is more efficient and more

:20:08. > :20:11.affordable and we have, through the process of modernisation and

:20:12. > :20:18.franchising of Crown Post Office is, been able to reduce the losses of

:20:19. > :20:24.those particular branches, which is a way we have of maintaining the

:20:25. > :20:28.promise that we made to keep post offices open in more rural and

:20:29. > :20:37.poorer areas that are not economically sustainable so I hope

:20:38. > :20:40.that the honourable member will understand that we are not

:20:41. > :20:46.disclosing ranchers, we franchising, making them more efficient, and we

:20:47. > :20:52.are then to fulfil our promises to areas that need a post-service but

:20:53. > :20:55.wouldn't have won if continuing to invest in loss-making post offices.

:20:56. > :21:00.I won't give way because I accept that not all Crown Post Offices lose

:21:01. > :21:04.money but the vast majority that have done are being franchised. I'm

:21:05. > :21:08.going to make some progress. My honourable friend for Bexhill High

:21:09. > :21:12.and battle put the case for the investment that taxpayers have made

:21:13. > :21:17.in the service in his constituency very well and I join him in

:21:18. > :21:21.congratulating Mr Sanjiv Patel on taking the risk, as many others have

:21:22. > :21:26.done around the country, and I have found that in taking that risk, not

:21:27. > :21:31.only has been good for their business, it has also been for the

:21:32. > :21:37.consumer. The post office is doing more for customers, doing so more

:21:38. > :21:42.officially for the taxpayer and ensuring that post office services

:21:43. > :21:46.remain about how streets throughout the country. Franchising or hosting

:21:47. > :21:49.some of the Crown branches is part of the post office's long-term plan

:21:50. > :21:54.to ensure the network is sustainable in the long term and it is not about

:21:55. > :22:01.closing services, it is about moving a branch to a lower cost model and

:22:02. > :22:05.often a better location for customers, securing and improving

:22:06. > :22:09.delivery of services. The change from a crown to a franchise or host

:22:10. > :22:13.branch has been undertaken previously in many locations around

:22:14. > :22:17.the UK and is a proven success in times of inner -- in terms of

:22:18. > :22:26.sustaining services as post offices share staff and services with a

:22:27. > :22:30.successful retailer, such a some of the samples we have heard this

:22:31. > :22:35.morning. Crown branches have moved from a ?46 million annual loss in

:22:36. > :22:39.2012 to a break even position today and that is no mean feat. There

:22:40. > :22:44.continue to be Crown branches that are loss-making and that is why I

:22:45. > :22:49.don't think that we can stand in the post office's way as they make their

:22:50. > :22:51.service more efficient, more sustainable and more accessible to a

:22:52. > :22:59.wider number of people around the country. Will she give way? I will

:23:00. > :23:04.give way. I just would like to make the observation that we've got a

:23:05. > :23:12.very packed house and even the members on your own side have

:23:13. > :23:18.actually told of their concerns and experiences that don't actually ring

:23:19. > :23:22.true on the fact that you have given to us. It just seems quite bizarre

:23:23. > :23:27.that there are so many of us telling you that we have got problems. The

:23:28. > :23:31.fact that the Minister has just said the government should not stand in

:23:32. > :23:37.the way does not seem to be the correct response. It would seem that

:23:38. > :23:41.we have got the responsibility to provide, and the government has to

:23:42. > :23:45.do that, a proper service for all our communities and clearly the

:23:46. > :23:49.figures that many eloquent people have given to all of us today

:23:50. > :23:56.doesn't seem to be very much at odds with the view of the Minister. --

:23:57. > :23:59.does seem to be. I say to the honourable lady that I have taught

:24:00. > :24:04.mostly so far about financial issues and they are undisputed facts that

:24:05. > :24:07.crowns were losing 46 million and are now breaking even, and there are

:24:08. > :24:12.still some loss-making ones to deal with. I appreciate that changes like

:24:13. > :24:16.these are not easy, especially when it involves staff who worked for

:24:17. > :24:20.many years, and I know she has had a briefing from the CW you and I have

:24:21. > :24:25.met the CW you on many occasions and I sympathise with their position but

:24:26. > :24:28.it is essential that the business continues to manage its costs to

:24:29. > :24:34.ensure it can meet the challenges facing our high streets, let alone

:24:35. > :24:40.the Post Office, now and in the future, as the way we shop and

:24:41. > :24:44.access services continues to change. Several members have pointed out

:24:45. > :24:48.about the government services and I agree, in 2010 we did have hopes as

:24:49. > :24:53.a government that the Post Office could take over many more government

:24:54. > :24:59.services but the rapidity with which some of those services have migrated

:25:00. > :25:05.to being accessible on the internet has meant that that particular hope

:25:06. > :25:07.has not come to enough fruition. The staff in Crown branches that are

:25:08. > :25:14.being franchised to have the opportunity to transfer to the

:25:15. > :25:17.franchisee in line with the TU PE process, or they can choose to be

:25:18. > :25:21.the business and the Post Office does offer a very generous

:25:22. > :25:25.settlement process and agreement, reflecting the hard work, commitment

:25:26. > :25:29.and dedication that many of those employees have shown over the years.

:25:30. > :25:33.But I reiterate the point that a more efficient Post Office is able

:25:34. > :25:39.to support and supplement thousands of small businesses, like were

:25:40. > :25:42.outlined by my honourable friend for South East Cornwall who spoke with

:25:43. > :25:46.great authority about the needs of people in her largely rural

:25:47. > :25:50.constituency and the government takes those needs very seriously and

:25:51. > :25:55.has honoured the commitment to maintain the service, even where

:25:56. > :25:59.they are not viable on a financial basis, to people who live in the

:26:00. > :26:03.rural parts of her constituency. I won't give way. I've got no time

:26:04. > :26:07.left. I want to answer the point that the honourable member the lady

:26:08. > :26:11.for Washington and Sunderland West made, which I agree with, that the

:26:12. > :26:15.poorer urban areas are also having a great problem in accessing local

:26:16. > :26:19.services and it's not just rural areas. I'm pleased to tell her that

:26:20. > :26:25.this is a real issue that the Post Office is now focusing on and I'm

:26:26. > :26:30.hopeful... I have examples of where the post offices are now revisiting

:26:31. > :26:37.areas where they previously closed branches ten years ago in those

:26:38. > :26:41.poorer areas to talk to retailers about setting up a Post Office Local

:26:42. > :26:46.counter and I hope that that will succeed in her area. I've really got

:26:47. > :26:50.very little time. I also wanted to reassure the honourable lady for

:26:51. > :26:53.Motherwell and Wishaw, I listened to her heartfelt concerns for

:26:54. > :26:57.accessible Post Office in the town centre of Motherwell and I will ask

:26:58. > :27:01.the Post Office to meet her again to discuss the most sustainable option

:27:02. > :27:06.for a Post Office service in her town centre. Many members told about

:27:07. > :27:11.banking and I agree this is an opportunity for the Post Office, but

:27:12. > :27:18.the Post Office bank idea was looked at very closely in 2010-11 and it

:27:19. > :27:23.was decided at that time that the money that the Government had would

:27:24. > :27:29.be better off invested in the transformation of networks to secure

:27:30. > :27:36.the sustainable access to services across the country. I can't give way

:27:37. > :27:41.now, I've got no more time. I just wanted to close by saying that the

:27:42. > :27:45.Post Office banking services are increasing now. They've grown 6%

:27:46. > :27:50.over the last 12 months, and credit unions as well are being looked

:27:51. > :27:54.at... Well, they are and I will write to the honourable lady, if I'm

:27:55. > :27:59.returned, and tell her what the Post Office plans are with regard to

:28:00. > :28:02.credit unions. Many others have raised issues on the Minister is

:28:03. > :28:05.refusing to give way to answer to those questions. Could you give me

:28:06. > :28:11.some guidance whether the department is able to give us that information

:28:12. > :28:15.as as possible? That is not a matter for me to talk I ensure the

:28:16. > :28:18.Minister, given the remaining 30 seconds, will do her best to answer

:28:19. > :28:27.any points. I am trying to conclude my response

:28:28. > :28:30.to legitimate concerns and I have responded to quite a number. But I

:28:31. > :28:39.must allow time for my honourable friend to conclude the debate... OK.

:28:40. > :28:44.I'm not going to fill it with interventions. I will carry on! I

:28:45. > :28:49.want to reassure members Post Offices do allow click and collect

:28:50. > :28:56.services. This is another area of potential growth. They are available

:28:57. > :29:02.from 10,500 local Post Offices. Members were saying they do not have

:29:03. > :29:05.them, but they do. In 10,000 500. If they do not have them in your

:29:06. > :29:14.branch, write to me and we will look into it. The allegation powers are

:29:15. > :29:18.reduced after time in convenience stores, I am pleased to say this is

:29:19. > :29:21.not the case. Opening hours are not decreasing in the fullness of time.

:29:22. > :29:26.I will give way to the honourable member. She has just told the House

:29:27. > :29:30.the Post Office is working with the credit unions. That is not what they

:29:31. > :29:34.have told us. Nothing has happened in the last five years. Everybody on

:29:35. > :29:39.this side talks about financial inclusion. Will she go back and look

:29:40. > :29:44.at it again and work with alternative providers who will

:29:45. > :29:50.deliver? The Post Office does work with credit unions where it can.

:29:51. > :29:54.There is a common link through the Co-op in some transactions. The

:29:55. > :29:59.difficulty has been, and as the lady is an expert on credit unions, maybe

:30:00. > :30:05.she can help us solve the problem. The problem is not having a common

:30:06. > :30:10.blanking -- banking platform. When they have developed a common

:30:11. > :30:13.platform, further working with credit unions should be possible. We

:30:14. > :30:19.take the subject of financial inclusion very seriously. I just

:30:20. > :30:25.wanted to talk a little bit more about banking. I agree with... I

:30:26. > :30:30.think the honourable gentleman is happy for me to continue. Order,

:30:31. > :30:36.order. A most interesting debate. We have all got Post Offices but I am

:30:37. > :30:41.afraid I have two finish here. We have a more important subjects now

:30:42. > :31:19.with dogs, with Nicky Morgan. Nicky Morgan. What a cheek!

:31:20. > :31:27.Nicky Morgan to move the motion. Thank you. It is a pleasure to serve

:31:28. > :31:31.under your chairmanship. Local authority and police force guidance

:31:32. > :31:35.for dogs attacking other dogs... I am delighted to open this important

:31:36. > :31:39.debate. The aim is to raise the issue of dogs attacking other dogs

:31:40. > :31:43.and calling for legislation and guidance to tackle this issue.

:31:44. > :31:48.Dangerous dogs are clearly a very serious problem. We know dogs can

:31:49. > :31:52.attack humans. Sometimes with tragic and even fatal consequences.

:31:53. > :31:58.Recently there have also been high profile dog attacks on other dogs.

:31:59. > :32:01.These are often caused by irresponsible owners failing to keep

:32:02. > :32:07.control of their animal. This is what happened to one of my

:32:08. > :32:11.constituents when her -- with her cocker spaniel. It was set upon by

:32:12. > :32:17.two large dogs in a local park let off their leashes. Thankfully it

:32:18. > :32:19.survived the attack. The experience has traumatised them to such an

:32:20. > :32:25.extent my constituent no longer goes to the park and the dog's confidence

:32:26. > :32:32.remains shattered. Another of my constituents was traumatised when

:32:33. > :32:37.her Jack Russell was killed by a dog walking by the union Kunal near my

:32:38. > :32:41.constituency. The owner of the other dog refused to take responsibility

:32:42. > :32:44.for the attack, leaving my constituents to cover all the

:32:45. > :32:49.veterinary bills. Both constituents were told by police the incidence

:32:50. > :32:53.were classed as dog on a dog, meaning no criminal offence occurred

:32:54. > :33:00.and no criminal charges could be brought. These cases are not

:33:01. > :33:04.unusual. I put in a Freedom of information request to all police

:33:05. > :33:09.forces in England for information on how many dog on dog attacks had been

:33:10. > :33:14.reported in the last two years. 14 out of 39 forces that responded at

:33:15. > :33:19.easily accessible data on these incidents and between the 14 there

:33:20. > :33:26.were over 1700 reported dog attacks on other dogs. Sussex Police alone

:33:27. > :33:31.recorded 828 attacks in two years. The pulse responsible for my

:33:32. > :33:34.constituency, Leicestershire, recorded 32 incidence of a dog

:33:35. > :33:38.attacking another dog and an additional 82 cases where a dog

:33:39. > :33:44.attacked a dog and person in the same incident. It is clearly very

:33:45. > :33:47.concerning. It is important police forces and local authorities have

:33:48. > :33:51.the power they need to tackle the problem and reduce the attacks. It

:33:52. > :33:57.is something I have worked on since I became a member of Parliament. In

:33:58. > :33:59.2013 I was delighted to support a campaign led by two of my

:34:00. > :34:03.constituents highlighting the problem. We submitted a petition to

:34:04. > :34:07.the Government and asked for the law to be tightened in this area,

:34:08. > :34:11.calling for the same legal rights for dogs when they are attacked

:34:12. > :34:16.currently for humans and for guide and assistance dogs. The petition

:34:17. > :34:20.collected 280 signatures and had the backing of a number of charities

:34:21. > :34:24.including the dogs trust, the kennel club and the RSPCA. I was pleased

:34:25. > :34:29.the then Minister for policing, the member for Ashford, visited my

:34:30. > :34:37.constituency and heard first-hand the problems faced by dog owners. I

:34:38. > :34:40.know his support was welcomed by local residents. Anti-social

:34:41. > :34:44.behaviour priming and policing act has since been passed into law,

:34:45. > :34:48.requiring police forces and local authorities and the courts to have

:34:49. > :34:50.greater powers responding to anti-social behaviour involving a

:34:51. > :34:55.dog before the situation becomes dangerous. When considering if they

:34:56. > :34:59.dog is a danger to public safety the court has to consider a number of

:35:00. > :35:03.circumstances, including whether the owner and person in charge is fit

:35:04. > :35:06.and a proper person to look after a dog. I am pleased it gives the

:35:07. > :35:11.courts the ability to intervene earlier and prevent attacks on

:35:12. > :35:13.people and other dogs. I recognise the act also strengthens the

:35:14. > :35:18.dangerous dogs act of 1991, to improve the response when a dog

:35:19. > :35:23.presents a risk to public safety. The offence of owning or being in

:35:24. > :35:29.charge of a dog which is dangerously out of control has been extended to

:35:30. > :35:34.all places, including owners homes. The maximum penalty... Yes, of

:35:35. > :35:42.course I will. I thank the honourable lady for giving way.

:35:43. > :35:48.Months ago, the lady will recall, the police had to shoot a dog in the

:35:49. > :35:52.street because it got totally out of control. Another area that concerns

:35:53. > :36:00.me is the fact there have been a number of cases of babies being

:36:01. > :36:03.attacked by dangerous dog. And the present sentence of six months in my

:36:04. > :36:08.view should be extended a lot further. I support everything the

:36:09. > :36:11.lady is saying in this matter. I thank the member very much indeed

:36:12. > :36:16.for his intervention and his support. I think it shows although

:36:17. > :36:21.the chamber may not be packed today, I know from looking at social media

:36:22. > :36:26.this issue is of great concern right across the country, in all of our

:36:27. > :36:29.constituencies. I will come on of course to talk about the fact that

:36:30. > :36:34.sometimes these incidents can lead to personal injury and even fatal

:36:35. > :36:39.incidents involving particularly young children and I will also talk

:36:40. > :36:44.about the sentencing, as well. He made some excellent points. I was

:36:45. > :36:48.talking bout the amendments to the Dangerous Dogs Act of 1991,

:36:49. > :36:52.extending the maximum penalty involving the death of person, the

:36:53. > :36:55.penalty to 14 years, five years were a person is injured and three years

:36:56. > :37:00.in any case involving the death or injury of an assistance dog. This is

:37:01. > :37:04.welcome news but does not give the same legal rights for dogs when they

:37:05. > :37:08.are attacked as it does for humans and guide and assistance dogs. It is

:37:09. > :37:13.important all dogs have the same protections and local authorities

:37:14. > :37:16.and the police at the power to properly punish the owner of the dog

:37:17. > :37:21.responsible. I would be interested to hear more about the minister's

:37:22. > :37:25.current thinking on this matter. As well as the anti-social behaviour

:37:26. > :37:28.crime and policing act, ministers have also introduced powers to help

:37:29. > :37:32.front line professionals tackle anti-social behaviour involving

:37:33. > :37:36.dogs. Police and local authorities can now intervene and issue

:37:37. > :37:40.community protection notices if a dog is causing a nuisance by

:37:41. > :37:45.repeatedly escaping or being aggressive. Owners of such dogs can

:37:46. > :37:50.be required to take remedial action, such as attending training classes,

:37:51. > :37:53.keeping the dog on a lead in public or repairing fences to prevent the

:37:54. > :37:57.dog leaving their property. It is clearly a step in the right

:37:58. > :38:00.direction. It brings me onto the other reason I applied for this

:38:01. > :38:04.debate and one in which I know the Minister is currently working on. In

:38:05. > :38:08.order for local authorities and police forces to successfully tackle

:38:09. > :38:12.this problem with the existing powers the Government has provided

:38:13. > :38:17.them with, they need to be made properly aware of them. I know last

:38:18. > :38:22.December the Department for environment food and rural affairs

:38:23. > :38:26.animal welfare issued a voluntary survey to police forces, local

:38:27. > :38:29.authorities and social landlords on measures to address dog control and

:38:30. > :38:33.reduce dog attacks in England. The aim was to inform the team of the

:38:34. > :38:37.effectiveness of existing measures and allow them to identify how

:38:38. > :38:40.intervention can be made more effective with a minimal burden on

:38:41. > :38:46.enforcement agencies. I look forward to hearing the outcome of the

:38:47. > :38:48.survey. The council in my own constituency has responded to the

:38:49. > :38:54.survey had raised interesting points which I would like to raise with the

:38:55. > :38:57.Minister today. I know they feel the incremental approach to processing

:38:58. > :39:00.dog attacks as well as the need to prove persistence makes the process

:39:01. > :39:06.lengthy. That often leads to frustration for the victim. The need

:39:07. > :39:08.to prove a breach of process means the dog has to attack three times

:39:09. > :39:13.before the owner can face the ultimate sanction of being

:39:14. > :39:16.prosecuted. That is clearly a concern. It provides the opportunity

:39:17. > :39:21.for a dangerous dog to attack two more times, as the member has talked

:39:22. > :39:27.about, potentially with tragical fatal consequences for another dog

:39:28. > :39:32.or even a child or an adult. That is sadly what happened in another case

:39:33. > :39:36.I am assisting with. The niece of my constituent Lexi Branson was killed

:39:37. > :39:45.by a dog, a four-year-old, at the home of my constituency -- in my

:39:46. > :39:48.constituency. The owner was not aware the dog had previously

:39:49. > :39:53.attacked another dog. While I will raise the specific issues from this

:39:54. > :39:56.case with the minister separately I wanted to mention it today because

:39:57. > :39:59.it demonstrates the need for urgent action to be taken to make sure a

:40:00. > :40:03.dangerous dog is not free to attack again. I cannot emphasise enough

:40:04. > :40:09.that just because a dog is attacked another dog does not mean they might

:40:10. > :40:12.not later attack a human and involve serious injury or potentially fatal

:40:13. > :40:17.consequences. One fatal incident is one too many. I welcome the

:40:18. > :40:23.minister's comments on this matter. Yes, of course. I will give way to

:40:24. > :40:29.the honourable member. Should we make sure we do not have an

:40:30. > :40:35.imbalance? There is also the side of human beings being cruel to dogs. I

:40:36. > :40:40.hope she agrees with me and the Minister will say something about

:40:41. > :40:44.the Battersea proposals. I thank the member for his intervention. He is

:40:45. > :40:48.absolutely right. I welcome the Battersea home, the cats and dogs

:40:49. > :40:52.home campaign, to stiffen sentences for animal cruelty. There are some

:40:53. > :40:58.truly terrible cases of animals being mistreated. I did not want to

:40:59. > :41:02.labour the point but there is the issue of irresponsible owners. I

:41:03. > :41:07.suspect we have all had situations as candidates and we will maybe in

:41:08. > :41:11.the next few weeks when we walked down a path, knock on a door, and

:41:12. > :41:17.deliver a leaflet and be faced with a rather angry looking dog. You're

:41:18. > :41:22.never entirely sure, because the owner says it is friendly, I see Mr

:41:23. > :41:28.Lee is smiling, whether it is friendly or has an appetite for

:41:29. > :41:34.canvassers. The honourable member speaks from personal experience!

:41:35. > :41:37.Returning to what I was saying about the survey, the council found the

:41:38. > :41:42.guide is very helpful but they feel sometimes it is too generic. For

:41:43. > :41:45.example the behaviour orders are difficult to apply to cases

:41:46. > :41:49.involving a dog. They suggested it would be useful if the guidance was

:41:50. > :41:53.more specific for dogs as living beings rather than property. And the

:41:54. > :42:00.issues arise for the welfare and cost of keeping a dog when action,

:42:01. > :42:03.and they would also have advice on escalating cases where there is no

:42:04. > :42:07.other option but for the owner to forfeit the dog. I am pleased the

:42:08. > :42:12.council have a good compliance rate of around 91% when issuing warnings

:42:13. > :42:17.to owners at the first stage of a community protection notice. But the

:42:18. > :42:20.council feel there was a lack of clarity in the Government's guidance

:42:21. > :42:24.for whether or not a case should be handled by the police under the

:42:25. > :42:29.Dangerous Dogs Act or as a civil case by the local authority. I note

:42:30. > :42:32.the Leicestershire local authorities have a memorandum of understanding

:42:33. > :42:36.with the local police about who handles each type of dog attack. But

:42:37. > :42:38.the council have said they would like to have more formal guidance. I

:42:39. > :42:44.would be grateful if the Minister would consider it these points as

:42:45. > :42:47.part of the Department review. It is clear these dogs continue to be a

:42:48. > :42:50.serious problem in local communities. I should say that of

:42:51. > :42:55.course there are many tens of thousands of dogs walked responsibly

:42:56. > :42:59.every day and their owners take great responsibility for them and go

:43:00. > :43:05.about their daily lives with no incidents or trouble whatsoever.

:43:06. > :43:10.Yes, there is a problem. The Freedom of information act numbers show

:43:11. > :43:13.there is a serious level of incidents, but I also want to pay

:43:14. > :43:16.tribute to those who look after their dogs well and deal with any

:43:17. > :43:21.aggression and take responsibility for them.

:43:22. > :43:25.Whilst I want to mention the positive work the previous and

:43:26. > :43:30.current governments have carried out, I do believe that it needs to

:43:31. > :43:37.be tightened further to ensure that attacks on other dogs are a criminal

:43:38. > :43:40.offence. As I have said, it is crucial that local authorities and

:43:41. > :43:44.police forces have comprehensive guidance available to them which

:43:45. > :43:49.details all the powers at their disposal to prevent the very real

:43:50. > :43:52.and tragic consequences that can arise when dangerous dogs attacked

:43:53. > :43:55.it up I'm grateful to the Health Authority is for allowing me to

:43:56. > :43:59.bring Mr Bates the chamber this morning. I know that the Minister is

:44:00. > :44:05.committed to animal welfare and all related issues and I look forward to

:44:06. > :44:09.hearing his response to this debate. Thank you very much. I would like to

:44:10. > :44:16.begin by congratulating my right honourable friend for securing this

:44:17. > :44:20.debate with police force and local authority guidance on police dogs

:44:21. > :44:21.attacking other dogs. I certainly understand that it must be

:44:22. > :44:27.incredibly traumatic for owners whose dogs have been attacked by

:44:28. > :44:31.other dogs, particularly as the owner is often a witness of that

:44:32. > :44:35.attack and I'd like to express my sympathy to her constituents and the

:44:36. > :44:41.owners of Ozzy the dog for the incident she describes and also her

:44:42. > :44:44.other constituent, the terrier that was attacked by a Rhodesian Ridge

:44:45. > :44:49.back and I completely understand that this is a very distressing

:44:50. > :44:52.time. It is completely acceptable for owners to allow their dogs to be

:44:53. > :44:59.dangerously out of control, whether around people or other animals, and

:45:00. > :45:03.attacks of this sort can affect the confidence of animals and can lead

:45:04. > :45:10.to instances where dogs start to change their behaviour and be afraid

:45:11. > :45:15.of going out. Over recent years the law on out-of-control dogs has been

:45:16. > :45:19.strengthened. This is an area that the government looked at quite

:45:20. > :45:22.closely. The dangerous dogs at me to 91 now applies the offence of

:45:23. > :45:30.allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control to all places, not just

:45:31. > :45:34.public places or a place where dogs have no right to be. This means dogs

:45:35. > :45:38.need to be under control in all places and at all times and this has

:45:39. > :45:42.particular relevance to those of us who will be delivering leaflets and

:45:43. > :45:48.going onto urine's property. We've all had experiences of dogs in most

:45:49. > :45:52.circumstances, I'm sure. The law also makes it a specific offence of

:45:53. > :45:58.allowing a dog attack on in assistance dog, for which a maximum

:45:59. > :46:02.penalty is three years imprisonment. The right honourable lady pointed

:46:03. > :46:05.out this was a new point that we introduced recently and the reason

:46:06. > :46:10.for specifically including an offence in relation to attack some

:46:11. > :46:16.assistance dogs was to emphasise the dependence upon which people who use

:46:17. > :46:21.these dogs have on their assistance dog and it was therefore considered

:46:22. > :46:25.that I must attack on an assistance dog in these circumstances was an

:46:26. > :46:30.aggravated attack and almost an attack by extension on the person

:46:31. > :46:34.themselves. There are real problems with attacks on assistance dogs. A

:46:35. > :46:38.huge amount of work goes into training these dogs and there have

:46:39. > :46:44.been many sad examples where, despite all of that work to train an

:46:45. > :46:50.assistance dog, it loses its confidence to be able to do that job

:46:51. > :46:53.and has to be retired from duty as a result of a single one of the tax.

:46:54. > :46:59.That is why we took the view that there was a very special case in the

:47:00. > :47:03.incidence of assistance dogs. Other penalties under the 1991 act were

:47:04. > :47:08.also increased significantly, in particular the maximum penalty for

:47:09. > :47:11.allowing a dog out of control was increased from two years'

:47:12. > :47:16.imprisonment to 14 years in cases where it results in the death of the

:47:17. > :47:20.victim and five years' imprisonment where the victim suffered serious

:47:21. > :47:28.injuries. Other laws also introduced as preventative measures. Under the

:47:29. > :47:32.anti-social crime and behaviour act 2014, Elisa and local authorities

:47:33. > :47:35.were allowed to take action in low-level incidents of anti-social

:47:36. > :47:38.behaviour, including where these involved adopted mock these of the

:47:39. > :47:43.incidents where a dog is causing a nuisance but no offences under the

:47:44. > :47:47.dangerous dogs at. In such circumstances, police or local

:47:48. > :47:51.authorities can take action by issuing a community protection

:47:52. > :47:55.notice or CPN to the owner or person in charge of the dog at the time to

:47:56. > :48:03.control the dog and stop the nuisance behaviour. Failure to

:48:04. > :48:07.comply with a CPN can lead to a fine of ?2500. This power means that

:48:08. > :48:13.police and local authorities can take action before a dog becomes

:48:14. > :48:16.dangerously out of control. Criticism of the dangerous dog that

:48:17. > :48:21.was that it only dealt with the issues after they had happened and

:48:22. > :48:24.many animal welfare organisations, dog keeping groups and veterinary

:48:25. > :48:31.organisations campaigned for the introduction of these types of

:48:32. > :48:34.notices. For more serious incidents of anti-social behaviour, such as

:48:35. > :48:40.using a dog to actually intimidate someone, there is the criminal

:48:41. > :48:43.behavioural order. This will be used in cases where a court is satisfied

:48:44. > :48:47.that an individual has engaged in behaviour that has caused or is

:48:48. > :48:50.likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress and finally, for more

:48:51. > :48:54.general matters, there are public spaces production orders, which

:48:55. > :48:58.place restrictions on dogs using clearly defined areas like

:48:59. > :49:03.children's playground areas and sports fields, and these are aimed

:49:04. > :49:10.at all dogs, rather than individuals. I note that my right

:49:11. > :49:12.honourable friend the Member for Loughborough has reported that

:49:13. > :49:20.Sharnbrook Borough council wanted to see specific guidance on the

:49:21. > :49:23.measures. I would say that in October 2014, to assist local

:49:24. > :49:29.authorities and the police, Defra published a practitioners' manual

:49:30. > :49:32.dealing with the responsible dog ownership, which provides

:49:33. > :49:35.practitioners with very specific guidance on how to use the

:49:36. > :49:39.anti-social behaviour measures specifically in relation to dogs and

:49:40. > :49:42.I would point out that I was a minister in Defra at the time, not

:49:43. > :49:47.with responsibility for this part of the portfolio, but we did have a

:49:48. > :49:52.debate in 2014 where a number of people were saying we should adopt

:49:53. > :49:56.measures similar to Stockport, where they had specific dog production

:49:57. > :50:02.orders. Our legal analysis was that these community protection orders

:50:03. > :50:06.are surplus but in the light of whether people raised concerns about

:50:07. > :50:11.whether this could be applied to dogs I asked my noble friend, the

:50:12. > :50:16.then minister for dogs, to address this issue that what prompted this

:50:17. > :50:23.guidance that was set at the time in 2014, almost three years ago. The

:50:24. > :50:26.practitioners' manual differs from the Home Office guidance doctrine,

:50:27. > :50:31.which was aimed at the broader use of anti-social measures, and was

:50:32. > :50:38.perhaps what Charnwood Borough council referred to. My department's

:50:39. > :50:43.practitioners' manual can be found on God .uk but I will ensure that

:50:44. > :50:53.after this debate, I will arrange for my office to send her office a

:50:54. > :51:01.paper copy. -- on gov.uk. I thank him for giving way. Would he express

:51:02. > :51:06.a view on the Battersea proposals? I have heard lots of proposals from

:51:07. > :51:10.Battersea. I'm not quite sure which ones he had in mind. But I would

:51:11. > :51:17.come back to my point that we did issue very specific guidance when it

:51:18. > :51:21.comes to how the CPN Looe could be used. Will give way so we can

:51:22. > :51:28.clarify. The proposal for longer sentences for people who abuse

:51:29. > :51:32.animals. I would prefer him to a debate that took place on this very

:51:33. > :51:38.matter a few weeks ago. I would point out that the Sentencing

:51:39. > :51:43.Council has just recently issued new guidance which took place this week

:51:44. > :51:46.and that makes it far easier for courts to award custodial sentences

:51:47. > :51:50.at the upper end of the range for these sorts of offences but

:51:51. > :51:56.sentencing is a matter for the ministry of justice and I'm sure

:51:57. > :51:59.they keep these issues under review. My right honourable friend also

:52:00. > :52:03.mentioned, all gave reference to the fact that police claimed that there

:52:04. > :52:07.needed to be a three strikes rule and unless the dog had attacked

:52:08. > :52:12.three times, prosecutions could be brought or, indeed, a CPN could not

:52:13. > :52:16.be used, and I am reliably informed by my officials that this is not the

:52:17. > :52:20.case. There is nothing in the law that says there must be three

:52:21. > :52:28.offences. The dangerous dogs at can be used in the first time there is

:52:29. > :52:30.an offence it comes to community protection notices, there was

:52:31. > :52:34.nothing in the law that stipulate there must be three offences before

:52:35. > :52:38.they can issue those. I think there is an issue here, which I was going

:52:39. > :52:42.to come unto, around enforcement, and there may be an issue of police

:52:43. > :52:47.forces that are reluctant to look at these issues because they believe

:52:48. > :52:50.there are other things they wish to focus on and they come up with

:52:51. > :52:57.internal operational procedures of this sort, but these ones created by

:52:58. > :53:03.the police, not a matter of law. I will give way to talk Can feminists

:53:04. > :53:08.are very much indeed for the clarification. I think it's really

:53:09. > :53:12.helpful to hear that. I will pursue it with Charnwood Borough council

:53:13. > :53:16.but I think Charnwood is a very responsible authority and they have

:53:17. > :53:19.worked closely with Leicestershire Police so they are labouring under

:53:20. > :53:22.some misapprehensions, I suspect that is very widespread amongst

:53:23. > :53:27.local authorities and police forces, and one of the purposes of today's

:53:28. > :53:29.debate was that MPs to express their concerns and for the Minister to

:53:30. > :53:34.show how seriously the government takes the sorts of incident and I

:53:35. > :53:39.were wonder whether he might think it is worthwhile to write a local

:53:40. > :53:42.authorities to reiterate some of the powers they do have. My right

:53:43. > :53:46.honourable friend is absolutely right and I very much welcome this

:53:47. > :53:50.debate and it is timely because as a minister in Defra in 2014, I felt we

:53:51. > :53:58.had addressed this issue by issuing the practitioners' guidance but, as

:53:59. > :54:02.she alluded to, whilst we accept that the powers are available for

:54:03. > :54:05.local authorities to use in all sorts of situations where dogs are

:54:06. > :54:10.causing problems, I accept that there are many instances of dogs

:54:11. > :54:13.being out of control and that is why, as she pointed out, my

:54:14. > :54:17.department has been looking at whether the powers are being used by

:54:18. > :54:22.the police and local authorities and, if so, what sort of effect they

:54:23. > :54:25.are having, and that is why we did issue a voluntary survey. We have

:54:26. > :54:29.invited all police forces and local authorities in England and Wales to

:54:30. > :54:33.respond to this and about the use of these anti-social measures. I can

:54:34. > :54:38.say that we've received many responses to the survey, which we

:54:39. > :54:43.are currently analysing. I'm told we expect the bat analysis by the end

:54:44. > :54:46.of May, so while we are all busy avoiding dogs on the doorstep during

:54:47. > :54:51.the election campaign, officials will be studying those responses.

:54:52. > :54:57.But I understand that initial indications and impressions from the

:54:58. > :55:00.evidence that we have received is that there remains some

:55:01. > :55:04.misunderstanding about the powers that are already available to local

:55:05. > :55:07.authorities and police forces and if that is the case, obviously, we

:55:08. > :55:12.would want to make sure that we raise their awareness about the

:55:13. > :55:16.powers they have. The focus of this debate is obviously on dog on dog

:55:17. > :55:21.attacks. As I mentioned at the start of my speech, section three of the

:55:22. > :55:24.dangerous dogs act makes it an offence to allow a dog to be

:55:25. > :55:29.dangerously out of control regardless of where it is and it has

:55:30. > :55:33.been a long held belief among enforcement agencies that so-called

:55:34. > :55:39.dog on dog incidents cannot be dealt with under the 1991 act, we do not

:55:40. > :55:42.believe this is the case. The 1991 act rides a definition of when a dog

:55:43. > :55:46.must be regarded as dangerously out of control. This refers to a dog

:55:47. > :55:49.being dangerously out of control when there are grounds for

:55:50. > :55:54.reasonable apprehension that it will attack someone. However, this

:55:55. > :56:00.definition is not exclusive and the words of section three of the 1999

:56:01. > :56:04.-- 1991 act could include, for example, where a dog attacks another

:56:05. > :56:09.dog or a dog attacked another animal. There is some case law in

:56:10. > :56:13.this area. In 2008 cup in a Court of Appeal judgment, it was specifically

:56:14. > :56:17.pointed out that the definition of dangerously out of control dog in

:56:18. > :56:21.section ten of the dangerous dog is not exclusive, and made clear that

:56:22. > :56:26.the ordinary meaning of the words in section three of the act should be

:56:27. > :56:34.applied to any given circumstances and specifically in one case,

:56:35. > :56:38.regarding a particular case, the court said they were inclined to go

:56:39. > :56:43.further and in the event, the definitions of section ten were not

:56:44. > :56:46.exclusive and does not read as a matter of construction that for the

:56:47. > :56:52.purposes of the act dog shall only be regarded as dangerously out of

:56:53. > :56:54.control, and then proceeds to the definition. Therefore, we feel

:56:55. > :56:59.entitled to go back to the straightforward words used of

:57:00. > :57:02.section three. Our lawyers believe that this does indeed mean that

:57:03. > :57:09.there are instances of where the dangerous to it could be used for

:57:10. > :57:13.attacks of dogs on dogs but I appreciate that there is a widely

:57:14. > :57:15.held view that it cannot be and this is something at our officials can

:57:16. > :57:23.consider as part of their wider review of the evidence we have from

:57:24. > :57:25.the survey I mentioned earlier. In conclusion, I would like to

:57:26. > :57:30.congratulate my right honourable friend for this very timely debate.

:57:31. > :57:35.I'm sure the contribution that she and others have made will be taken

:57:36. > :57:39.on board by my officials and considered as they reflect on the

:57:40. > :57:44.survey that they are looking at now. Although, as I've explained, I do

:57:45. > :57:49.that the law already allows police and local authorities to take action

:57:50. > :57:54.in incidences involving dangerously out of control or just nuisance

:57:55. > :57:57.dogs, I completely agree that there are some issues around consistency

:57:58. > :58:03.of enforcement and that is why we have this review going on, this

:58:04. > :58:06.survey going on, and I look forward to seeing the results of that and I

:58:07. > :58:07.have no doubt that my right honourable friend will follow that

:58:08. > :58:29.closely. Order, order, Derek Thomas to move

:58:30. > :58:34.the motion. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I beg

:58:35. > :58:37.to move that this House considers employment opportunities in food and

:58:38. > :58:42.farming. The agriculture sector is essential to the social, cultural

:58:43. > :58:46.and economic landscape of this nation. Food production and farming

:58:47. > :58:50.provides a valuable and abuse and in helping to feed the nation but also

:58:51. > :58:57.provides employment, preserve and maintain our countryside and also

:58:58. > :59:00.contributes to tourism. Agriculture provides a bedrock for the UK food

:59:01. > :59:05.and drink sector, the largest manufacturing sector in the UK, 3.9

:59:06. > :59:11.million jobs and opportunities across the country. There are

:59:12. > :59:14.476,000 people employed in agricultural things across the UK

:59:15. > :59:19.including full-time, part-time and seasonal workers. Four West

:59:20. > :59:23.Cornwall, the contribution of agriculture sector is hugely

:59:24. > :59:27.important. 1.4 billion of the Southwest economic output was

:59:28. > :59:34.accounted for by the agricultural sector. This includes 8800

:59:35. > :59:40.agricultural businesses and 27,300 employees. Working in farming or

:59:41. > :59:51.fishing can be an exciting career choice offering a huge career

:59:52. > :59:54.choice. It is constantly innovating and is an important contributor to

:59:55. > :00:03.the national economy. I will give way. He is very kind but could I say

:00:04. > :00:13.that as the chairman of the manufacturing group of MPs that I

:00:14. > :00:21.agree entirely that it is a major area of manufacturing. His brilliant

:00:22. > :00:24.provision in Cornwall has been responsible for the great skills we

:00:25. > :00:33.had and I wish we had as good all over the country. Thank you, Mr

:00:34. > :00:43.Walker. You are right about the sheer scale of the manufacturing and

:00:44. > :00:50.the good work that FE does in Cornwall. But agriculture is spread

:00:51. > :00:56.across the country rather than being concentrated in one area. I am most

:00:57. > :00:59.grateful. Does he agree with me that British farmers will be able to

:01:00. > :01:05.promote themselves and their products far more effectively when

:01:06. > :01:16.we leave the EU and gain control of food labelling? You may be aware I

:01:17. > :01:24.made a debate here about that subject, about food security, and we

:01:25. > :01:29.can do that through clear labelling. Consumers can know what they're

:01:30. > :01:34.buying, that we looking after animal welfare and the environment. Leaving

:01:35. > :01:39.the EU allows us to provide direction and clarity about those

:01:40. > :01:42.things. It is a global industry that uses cutting-edge technology,

:01:43. > :01:46.constantly innovating and is important contributor to the

:01:47. > :01:54.national economy. The food sector generates 1.8 billion in the Valley

:01:55. > :01:58.of UK plc. Jobs in the sector can be engineered, scientists, farm

:01:59. > :02:02.managers and vets. It is clear that the industry, like any industry,

:02:03. > :02:08.will need a ready supply of new entrants and new ideas, energy and

:02:09. > :02:11.enthusiasm. As the industry becomes increasingly technologically driven

:02:12. > :02:15.and more reliant on its ability to understand and implement the latest

:02:16. > :02:19.science, businesses across the sector will need to have the right

:02:20. > :02:28.mix of skills amongst their employees. I congratulate him for

:02:29. > :02:31.securing this important debate. As the chairman of the all-party group

:02:32. > :02:35.for youth employment, we look at unemployment stats every month and

:02:36. > :02:39.there are over half a million young people unemployed. Does he agree

:02:40. > :02:43.this is a great opportunity within the sector to tap into some of that

:02:44. > :02:48.talent to help up skill then and give them a place in the working

:02:49. > :02:52.world? I am sure the Minister will want to comment but I am sure there

:02:53. > :02:56.are jobs to be filled in the sector, certainly in my part of the world

:02:57. > :03:01.and I know that the challenge around offering these jobs to these young

:03:02. > :03:06.people is that they are properly prepared for the work and from

:03:07. > :03:11.school they can understand what is required and have skills needed. I

:03:12. > :03:16.know employers will provide opportunities and training. I will

:03:17. > :03:25.later come to looking at apprenticeships and opportunities.

:03:26. > :03:31.Thank you for giving me a chance to intervene. I want to say that you

:03:32. > :03:37.talked about jobs. We have 70,000 jobs in the agriculture sector in

:03:38. > :03:43.Northern Ireland. 50,000 farmers and workers, 22 thousand 500 involved in

:03:44. > :03:49.food and drink processing. It's worth 20% of Northern Ireland's

:03:50. > :03:55.cross product. Does the honourable gentleman fuel that whether we leave

:03:56. > :04:06.the EU, when Brexit comes forward, that agri- food sector can grow any

:04:07. > :04:11.more? I will come opportunities to invest and grow and encourage the

:04:12. > :04:16.food and farming production. I also recognise there is a growing

:04:17. > :04:20.population here and across the world, so the UK has an opportunity

:04:21. > :04:23.to rise to that challenge and make sure people wherever they live have

:04:24. > :04:29.the opportunity to have the food they need to survive. I think there

:04:30. > :04:34.is a real opportunity and moral responsibility to invest and empower

:04:35. > :04:40.food and farming to deliver the needs that are growing. So far we

:04:41. > :04:45.have concentrated on agriculture and it is natural to do that but it is

:04:46. > :04:49.important we do not forget the contribution of the fishing industry

:04:50. > :04:55.both economically and socially. In 2015, fishing contributed ?604

:04:56. > :05:01.million to the UK GDP and just over 12,000 fishermen were employed or

:05:02. > :05:05.fishing expertise. Need to be careful here. Half of which were

:05:06. > :05:10.based in England alone. You just have to visit new when in my

:05:11. > :05:18.constituency where there are 40 acres of harbour, to see all kinds

:05:19. > :05:22.of boats to realise how essential fishing is to the region. It is fair

:05:23. > :05:26.to say that in fishing and farming, like other parts of the food chain,

:05:27. > :05:33.face a number of challenges when attracting the right number of

:05:34. > :05:36.quality -- right number and quality of new entrants. Some challenges

:05:37. > :05:41.relate to the perception of these jobs being low skilled, low paid

:05:42. > :05:44.with lack of career opportunities and being hard physical labour in

:05:45. > :05:49.all weathers. At school I was frowned upon for opting for

:05:50. > :05:53.evocation of career, construction sector for me, rather than going to

:05:54. > :05:58.university. Times have changed and we must recognise a job in the

:05:59. > :06:05.countryside is worthwhile and has many benefits other careers to not

:06:06. > :06:13.offer. He makes are really strong case for fishing and farming, an

:06:14. > :06:18.essential part of the economy in Yorkshire. Will he address as we

:06:19. > :06:21.come towards the election the deep uncertainty amongst the farming and

:06:22. > :06:30.fishing community about what will replace the present system of farm

:06:31. > :06:36.subsidies and fishing rights? We have to tell 4pm. What I will say is

:06:37. > :06:40.I am not gifted with that particular answer but I would say that if we

:06:41. > :06:44.can encourage our farmers and fishermen to continue to care for

:06:45. > :06:47.the environment, provide the food we need and provide the skilled jobs we

:06:48. > :06:55.need then I can't see any reason why the Government wouldn't support that

:06:56. > :07:03.of any colour. And what I think we are very should be proud of and talk

:07:04. > :07:05.more about is the equality and diversity of what we produce,

:07:06. > :07:11.whether it is a small business food producer, a large producer that

:07:12. > :07:14.other people round the world deserve to know about and get their hands

:07:15. > :07:19.on. That is how I would like to approach leaving the EU, Mr Walker.

:07:20. > :07:26.If I can make some progress. Other considerations including the rural

:07:27. > :07:31.location of farming businesses and costs of rural housing. Many young

:07:32. > :07:36.learners consider it is only a career for those with a rural

:07:37. > :07:38.background. Fewer and fewer individuals are interested in

:07:39. > :07:43.pursuing a career in this sector and it is for this reason I wish to hold

:07:44. > :07:47.this debate. We appear to be facing what could be termed as a

:07:48. > :07:56.generational crisis within the farming, fishing and food sector.

:07:57. > :08:13.According to death trap, only -- death -- according to Defra, only

:08:14. > :08:17.13% of farmers... He is making a good point. Whilst there has been

:08:18. > :08:26.tremendous success for the Government and expanding

:08:27. > :08:29.apprenticeship and other sectors I wonder what his thoughts would be

:08:30. > :08:36.about taking a holistic view of looking at the sector generally and

:08:37. > :08:43.looking at getting young people engaged in training courses. I have

:08:44. > :08:48.done some work on that. Last year I brought 36 producers, many of them

:08:49. > :08:55.farmers, into Westminster Hall just to celebrate the wonderful work they

:08:56. > :09:01.do developing their produce, and I was really wishing to expose their

:09:02. > :09:05.produce to the London market. We must celebrate all avenues of the

:09:06. > :09:07.sector so that more people see the opportunity that site is there for

:09:08. > :09:23.them. Additional data from the

:09:24. > :09:27.Department's farm business survey in 2013/14 says the greatest barrier to

:09:28. > :09:33.individuals wanting to join the farmers set to whether

:09:34. > :09:37.non-competitiveness of salaries for 64%, 55% responded to their was a

:09:38. > :09:41.lack of job opportunities and 55 said it was due to not owning a

:09:42. > :09:46.family farm. We must increase our efforts to change the perception of

:09:47. > :09:51.the sector to help attract new entrants and come up with solutions

:09:52. > :09:54.and attract assistance for young people to overcome barriers in the

:09:55. > :09:57.industry. I will be interested to hear what has been done since the

:09:58. > :10:01.release of these figures in an effort to address their concerns.

:10:02. > :10:09.There are examples of initiatives to address this. The industrywide

:10:10. > :10:12.careers initiative that seeks to inform school pupils, careers

:10:13. > :10:17.advisers about the range of careers across the industry. Other industry

:10:18. > :10:22.careers campaigns should be coordinated around this initiative

:10:23. > :10:25.to provide consistent information to help inform and inspire young people

:10:26. > :10:31.about careers in the sector, outlining clear career frameworks

:10:32. > :10:35.that show progression. We need young people and others of all ages in the

:10:36. > :10:39.food and farming and fishing sectors as they bring ambition and

:10:40. > :10:43.creativity. Events over the last decade have demonstrated that the

:10:44. > :10:49.issue of food security should not be overlooked. As a nation we are still

:10:50. > :10:53.dependent on food imports. The nation 's farmers only produce 60%

:10:54. > :11:03.of what the nation could produce. 61%. Whilst productivity has risen

:11:04. > :11:08.at 1.5% per year, we need young and highly skilled farmers to come up

:11:09. > :11:11.with ways to keep this increasing. We need technically savvy

:11:12. > :11:18.entrepreneurs and driven young people to utilise the

:11:19. > :11:23.state-of-the-art technology available and GPS mapping systems to

:11:24. > :11:25.high-tech milk machines to keep British farming at the cutting edge

:11:26. > :11:32.and fill these demands. In addition, due to the current uncertainty in

:11:33. > :11:36.the value of sterling, retailers and consumers are looking closer to home

:11:37. > :11:39.to meet their needs. The creativity of young people would also help

:11:40. > :11:49.farms across the UK achieved their diversity goals shone in a Visit

:11:50. > :11:57.England survey in 2016. 16% were looking at contracting, ...

:11:58. > :12:00.Personally, I meet regularly with fishermen and farmers and their

:12:01. > :12:04.representatives. On Friday last week I met with the NFU and local farmers

:12:05. > :12:13.and discussed the skills gap at length. The NFU is a founding member

:12:14. > :12:20.of a body that helps respond to the skills gap by responding with skills

:12:21. > :12:23.and lifelong learning. It is important as people enter the

:12:24. > :12:25.industry that they are encouraged to undertake professional developer and

:12:26. > :12:31.to help them progress in their careers. Continued emphasis on

:12:32. > :12:35.lifelong learning and development will only help to attract new

:12:36. > :12:39.entrants and retain skills in the industry. The agricultural industry

:12:40. > :12:43.has put significant effort in working towards this goal with the

:12:44. > :12:47.launch of training and professional development schemes across different

:12:48. > :12:59.sectors, for example with very sector has -- the dairy sector... My

:13:00. > :13:04.concern is that not a lot has been done within schools, careers advice

:13:05. > :13:08.and across government departments to promote careers and opportunities

:13:09. > :13:18.within the sector. Having said this, I joined hundreds of children at an

:13:19. > :13:20.open farm Dave at the invitation of the local farmer. It was an

:13:21. > :13:24.opportunity to see first-hand how our food is produced and what

:13:25. > :13:30.careers are available in food and farming.

:13:31. > :13:36.I also took my family to a local farm for the open from Sunday. These

:13:37. > :13:40.are successful initiatives to increase public awareness of farming

:13:41. > :13:46.and food production. These initiatives are helpful to dismiss

:13:47. > :13:50.the image of something similar to the character of Farmer Giles. Those

:13:51. > :13:58.who are not familiar with this gentleman, he is a fat man with a

:13:59. > :14:04.red face Hutus on straw and enjoys a slow and comfortable life. This may

:14:05. > :14:09.well be something that each of us cover in the next weeks and I may

:14:10. > :14:14.find that I will be doing that myself on June nine. In reality,

:14:15. > :14:19.farming is far from this. Farmers are dynamic and hard-working members

:14:20. > :14:23.of society and both during my time in this place and in my pursuit to

:14:24. > :14:25.become a member, I have been privileged to discuss with farmers

:14:26. > :14:31.the opportunities and challenges they have and will continue to face.

:14:32. > :14:36.Today it is important that if we are to address the specific challenge of

:14:37. > :14:40.recruitment, we must move away from the image of Farmer Giles, both to

:14:41. > :14:43.help inspire young and talented individuals to look at the sector

:14:44. > :14:47.and to do justice to those who already work in the area. I echo the

:14:48. > :14:51.previous sentiments are made by my right honourable friend the Member

:14:52. > :14:55.for Northamptonshire when she said that she hopes that in future more

:14:56. > :14:58.young people will be encouraged to engage in countryside matters. We

:14:59. > :15:01.must change young people's attitudes towards agricultural sectors and

:15:02. > :15:06.careers and inspire young people to get involved. I'm asking what the

:15:07. > :15:11.government can do. In an age where population growth, as we referred to

:15:12. > :15:15.earlier, has more mouths to feed both here and overseas increasing,

:15:16. > :15:20.and there seem to be more jobs than people, what can the Government do

:15:21. > :15:25.to address the exodus of talent from rural areas, which we are very much

:15:26. > :15:29.aware of in call and the Isle of silly. I'm supporting farmers who

:15:30. > :15:33.say that schools and career services must work with the industry to

:15:34. > :15:37.further promote farming as an aspirational career choice and make

:15:38. > :15:43.better links with stem subjects on their applications in farming. A

:15:44. > :15:47.greater understanding of the range of opportunities in the sector would

:15:48. > :15:51.help dispel the myth that farming is low paid and low skilled. It is

:15:52. > :15:54.important there are opportunities for the industry to engage with

:15:55. > :15:58.organisations such as the careers and enterprise company and for the

:15:59. > :16:02.national careers service to work with the centre to provide

:16:03. > :16:06.continuous careers advice and informed information about career

:16:07. > :16:13.and work prospects in the agricultural sector. Minister, we

:16:14. > :16:15.need a partnership approach with cross-party support in recognising

:16:16. > :16:19.agriculture as an important and attractive sector to be in. This

:16:20. > :16:27.would be of benefit in further challenging the existing perception.

:16:28. > :16:30.In terms of apprenticeships, it is important to recognise that fit for

:16:31. > :16:34.purpose qualifications still have a crucial role to play in

:16:35. > :16:37.apprenticeships of our industry. Whilst in part understanding the

:16:38. > :16:41.Government's aspiration for the apprenticeship being the actual

:16:42. > :16:45.qualification going forward, both employers and apprentices and their

:16:46. > :16:50.parents and families, as a minimum, need a period of transition of

:16:51. > :16:57.allowing the inclusion of qualifications that fall outside the

:16:58. > :17:00.current criteria set by government, was the new trailblazers provide

:17:01. > :17:04.their credentials. I'm asking government to work with employers

:17:05. > :17:09.even more than they are now in the industry to develop a 16-19 skills

:17:10. > :17:18.plan so the vacation and technical qualifications and courses are

:17:19. > :17:22.relevant to the industry. He did say we had a reasonable amount of time

:17:23. > :17:26.to intervene. I don't want to criticise his very good speed but it

:17:27. > :17:29.is a bit male dominated. Is one of the real challenge is how many women

:17:30. > :17:32.are coming in to be farmers, how many women are coming into the

:17:33. > :17:36.sector, and isn't it about time we did something about that? Unsure

:17:37. > :17:42.that young people include men and women but you are right, I accept

:17:43. > :17:48.that. I was talking about a story written several years ago. What

:17:49. > :17:51.encourages me, having said all I said, is that when I'm out and about

:17:52. > :17:56.on the farms and visiting the various businesses working in food

:17:57. > :18:00.and farming, there are a number of young people, particularly girls,

:18:01. > :18:03.engaged in that process. I am a member of the science and tech

:18:04. > :18:06.select committee and we are doing a huge amount of work to understand

:18:07. > :18:09.how to encourage more girls and young women into Stem subjects

:18:10. > :18:12.because there was a real is shortage of them and they provide a

:18:13. > :18:17.particular angle that we must benefit from and can benefit from.

:18:18. > :18:24.On my next point, which might help to encourage the gentleman, and

:18:25. > :18:26.thank you for your intervention. The Department for Education must

:18:27. > :18:30.encourage schools and careers services to work with the industry.

:18:31. > :18:34.It is vital that the department for industry understand that while the

:18:35. > :18:38.five GCSEs we all want our young people to achieve an important, we

:18:39. > :18:42.need to work equally hard within our schools to help young people realise

:18:43. > :18:46.the opportunities available to them outside the school gates, in their

:18:47. > :18:50.local area. This will have a huge benefit in addressing some of the

:18:51. > :19:04.challenges we have and also avoid, for some, the pressures, which I

:19:05. > :19:09.know concerns many people. I want better links with Stem subjects and

:19:10. > :19:13.their applications. To conclude, the agricultural industry has been

:19:14. > :19:17.incredibly resilient and courageous through numerous challenges in the

:19:18. > :19:21.past. The problems faced today require the same attitudes to be

:19:22. > :19:26.adopted. We must be able to maintain the vibrancy of the rural economy

:19:27. > :19:29.and to continue to meet our food security needs. Conflicts overseas

:19:30. > :19:34.and increasing population growth mean that British farming must have

:19:35. > :19:39.the capability to produce the lion's share of the food we need in the

:19:40. > :19:43.nation and in feeding this nation, and young people, both girls and

:19:44. > :19:49.boys, of a real opportunity to meet that challenge. The fishing industry

:19:50. > :19:51.needs fresh blood in the sector, ensuring that youngsters are

:19:52. > :19:57.recruited to fulfil the jobs available in the sector, and this is

:19:58. > :20:01.not only crucial to the future of south-west Cornwall but the entire

:20:02. > :20:06.UK fishing fleet. Thank you. The question is that this House has

:20:07. > :20:09.considered employment opportunities in food and farming. Are any

:20:10. > :20:13.colleagues standing before I moved to the front benches? Well, I'm

:20:14. > :20:19.going to move to the front bench, then. Owen Thompson. Thank you, Mr

:20:20. > :20:23.Walker. Always a pleasure to 70 or chairmanship and can I congratulate

:20:24. > :20:35.the Member for St Ives in securing today's debate. Clearly, farming is

:20:36. > :20:39.a significant employer where seven to present of the landmass is

:20:40. > :20:47.considered rural. Rouble is considered more than a 30 minute

:20:48. > :20:52.Drive from the nearest settlement. Almost one in five of the population

:20:53. > :20:57.of Scotland lives in a rural community. Jobs in the rural sector

:20:58. > :21:03.are therefore incredibly vital to the Scottish economy. It is

:21:04. > :21:06.important that despite the uncertain times that we do continue to support

:21:07. > :21:12.the industry to ensure it has a sustainable footing for the future.

:21:13. > :21:15.Currently, Scotland's natural environment is worth more than 20

:21:16. > :21:21.billion per annum and supports more than 60,000 jobs. Between 2010 and

:21:22. > :21:27.2015 the total turnover of Scotland's food and drink industry

:21:28. > :21:30.increased from 10 billion to 14.4 billion with exports. In 2016, it

:21:31. > :21:35.was worth 5.5 billion, an increase of 40% since 2007. Scottish food and

:21:36. > :21:39.drink really is going through something of a renaissance at the

:21:40. > :21:43.moment and we can see that and we know that the quality is there

:21:44. > :21:48.within that industry and is something I will come back to later

:21:49. > :21:53.on my comments. But there are also challenges. The average age of

:21:54. > :21:59.Scottish farmers is now around 58, with only 9% of farm occupiers 40 or

:22:00. > :22:03.under. So, as the honourable member for St Ives was highlighting, it is

:22:04. > :22:06.incredibly important we find ways to bring new young people into these

:22:07. > :22:15.industries to make sure that we do have that sustainability and the

:22:16. > :22:19.resilience to continue the support for industries that are so vital to

:22:20. > :22:22.us. In Scotland, the SNP government are very keen to support young

:22:23. > :22:25.people into the industry to make sure the bright young farmers keep

:22:26. > :22:31.the economy going into the future. In April 20 17th, the Scottish

:22:32. > :22:35.government announced a fund of ?2.5 million to help new entrants into

:22:36. > :22:39.farming. Funding will support the next generation of farmers and

:22:40. > :22:43.increase the opportunities for young people to establish a career in

:22:44. > :22:48.agriculture. This latest award will see a final 47 new farming

:22:49. > :22:52.businesses to help them create and develop the business is. One of the

:22:53. > :23:00.biggest challenges of any business in a rural economy is also the

:23:01. > :23:05.access and uptake of broadband. That is something I know we do continue

:23:06. > :23:10.to return to and, as I say, with 98% of Scotland considered rural, the

:23:11. > :23:15.roll-out of broadband to help businesses as we move into a more

:23:16. > :23:23.technical world is critical to help support the running of local rural

:23:24. > :23:27.farming businesses. But we are in an uncertain world just now. The UK

:23:28. > :23:31.vote to leave the EU has created a significant uncertainty in the

:23:32. > :23:34.agricultural sector. The hard Brexit we so often hear about would be

:23:35. > :23:40.absolutely devastating for stretches of Scottish agriculture, cattle and

:23:41. > :23:44.sheep substantially facing high tariffs and lots of subsidy

:23:45. > :23:49.supported talk we would have the risk of future protection of the

:23:50. > :23:51.Scottish protected food names like Scottish beef or Stornoway black

:23:52. > :23:59.pudding. We don't yet know what is going to happen to protected name

:24:00. > :24:05.status. We have a scheme here in the UK, given that Europeans will no

:24:06. > :24:10.longer be accessible to us. We are supporting the common framework that

:24:11. > :24:14.helped supports food safety and reduce nontariff barriers to trade.

:24:15. > :24:22.Jobs and investment opportunities have been put at risk of entering

:24:23. > :24:26.into multi-annual contracts under various schemes and some of

:24:27. > :24:32.Scotland's remote rural communities have fragile populations where EU

:24:33. > :24:35.migration helps to ensure the resilience of these communities and

:24:36. > :24:40.without the ability to have that movement, there is a real risk but

:24:41. > :24:46.not just on the food and farming industries but entire communities

:24:47. > :24:51.across Scotland. The Government's gamble with membership of the EU has

:24:52. > :24:57.created significant uncertainty. We are now facing a loss to much-needed

:24:58. > :25:01.seasonal workers. Agriculture directly employs 65,000 people and

:25:02. > :25:03.underpins a ?14 billion food and drink industry, one of the

:25:04. > :25:09.fastest-growing and most successful sectors of Scotland. Along with

:25:10. > :25:15.other rural businesses, agriculture relies heavily on seasonal workers,

:25:16. > :25:21.yet despite repeated questioning we've not yet had a clear answer for

:25:22. > :25:25.the government for the rights we are protected for the seasonal workers,

:25:26. > :25:31.an estimated five to 15,000 working in the sector annually. Berry

:25:32. > :25:34.picking alone requires a significant number of seasonal workers and more

:25:35. > :25:43.than a third of UK soft fruit comes from Scotland. The industry is

:25:44. > :25:48.clearly facing challenges, VCA CHP payment issues are there, no point

:25:49. > :25:58.trying to pretend otherwise, but that is the euro secretary's number

:25:59. > :26:00.one priority and these things are that the vast majority of farmers

:26:01. > :26:07.and crofters will have received their 2016 baser payments. We

:26:08. > :26:12.understand the NSF US President's frustration regarding the system for

:26:13. > :26:18.payments and that is something that the Cabinet secretary has been

:26:19. > :26:29.keeping him and the NFC West advise all is -- advisers apprised of. The

:26:30. > :26:34.industry with so many opportunities for Scotland growing so quickly, to

:26:35. > :26:40.suddenly come up against the challengers and potential risks that

:26:41. > :26:51.Brexit face to the industry really has put a big question mark. What

:26:52. > :26:54.can we secured to ensure that the food and drink industry is protected

:26:55. > :27:02.Thomas to continue to grow and contribute to the economy? Thank

:27:03. > :27:07.you, Mr Walker and it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship to

:27:08. > :27:11.date. I would like to congratulate the honourable member for St Ives

:27:12. > :27:15.for securing this debate. I think he's demonstrated that he does have

:27:16. > :27:21.a passion for the issue and I would like to particularly highlight,

:27:22. > :27:23.although I'm not the shadow spokesperson for fishing and

:27:24. > :27:29.fisheries, I think it is really important that he has brought that

:27:30. > :27:34.into the debate today and the future of that industry in particular. The

:27:35. > :27:40.debate is particularly important because across the sector, there are

:27:41. > :27:45.serious skill shortages that must be addressed if the industry is to be

:27:46. > :27:49.maintained. Mr Walker, I would like to start by highlighting the

:27:50. > :27:55.situation in the UK food and drink manufacturing industry, which has up

:27:56. > :28:00.to 400,000 direct employees in roles that range from sales and marketing,

:28:01. > :28:04.supply chain and Logistics to production management and

:28:05. > :28:09.engineering, and this is an industry which has enormous potential as a

:28:10. > :28:14.high-value manufacturing sector, using innovative technologies and

:28:15. > :28:19.engineering, digital and life sciences, to meet all the challenges

:28:20. > :28:21.of managing future food supplies and contributing to the wider carbon

:28:22. > :28:29.reduction agenda. This potential is being put at risk.

:28:30. > :28:35.The food and drink Federation have highlighted that by 2024 over a

:28:36. > :28:39.third of the workforce in the sector will retire and 130,000 new recruits

:28:40. > :28:50.will be needed to fill this skills gap. A recent survey by the food and

:28:51. > :28:53.drink Federation revealed that a top five skills gaps were engineers,

:28:54. > :29:00.food scientists and technologists, innovation, including product and

:29:01. > :29:04.process development, leadership and management, and customer service

:29:05. > :29:08.management. Although the ageing workforce and skills gap is not new,

:29:09. > :29:15.there needs to close it has become more urgent. As, like the rest of

:29:16. > :29:20.the agri- food supply chain, food and drink manufacturers currently

:29:21. > :29:25.benefit from bringing in skilled labour from the EU. This represents

:29:26. > :29:31.29% of its workforce or 120,000 workers. A high number of these

:29:32. > :29:39.workers carry out vital production, technical and specialist roles and

:29:40. > :29:43.host Brexit the industry expects there will be future restrictions on

:29:44. > :29:50.accessing non-UK EU workers which will only intensify the skills gap.

:29:51. > :29:56.To address the problem, the industry wants to see coordinated careers

:29:57. > :29:59.action and a more strategic approach to engagement with schools to

:30:00. > :30:05.encourage home-grown talent for the long-term. The Federation is also

:30:06. > :30:13.asking for a technical education reforms including the institutes of

:30:14. > :30:17.technology as proposed levels fall short for the food and drink

:30:18. > :30:22.industry. The Federation hopes to fill its own pledge to increase the

:30:23. > :30:30.apprenticeship workforce in food and drink manufacturing up to 3% from

:30:31. > :30:32.the 1% it currently is, by 2020, and to tackle market failures such as

:30:33. > :30:39.the fragmented apprenticeship provision for the sector and the

:30:40. > :30:43.lack of new standard at level four and above and I hope sincerely that

:30:44. > :30:47.the Minister will get a commitment to address these issues with his

:30:48. > :30:53.appropriate colleagues in the relevant departments as a matter of

:30:54. > :30:57.priority. Mr Walker, 11% of workers in the sector work in agriculture

:30:58. > :31:05.with a high dependence on workers from outside the UK. Up to 80,000

:31:06. > :31:11.workers come to the UK every year to pick fruit and vegetables, with 98%

:31:12. > :31:15.of these workers coming from the EU. In my own region, farmers in the

:31:16. > :31:21.north-east have told me that they not only rely on workers from abroad

:31:22. > :31:24.from our seasonal jobs but to work on their farms throughout the whole

:31:25. > :31:31.year. While it is important that young people are encouraged to take

:31:32. > :31:36.up agricultural careers, that uncertainty in the sectors about

:31:37. > :31:40.their workforce post Brexit needs urgent assurance from the

:31:41. > :31:44.Government. Farmers have to have the certainty of a good stream of

:31:45. > :31:48.seasonal workers. If the Government will not give in to pressure to

:31:49. > :31:55.reintroduce the seasonal agricultural workers seem then will

:31:56. > :31:59.the ministers say what measures are being put in place to encourage

:32:00. > :32:07.local people to fill these jobs? Will he say that the Government will

:32:08. > :32:10.support schemes such as the ones helping young people in particular

:32:11. > :32:15.access jobs in rural areas when there is no public transport? Can

:32:16. > :32:22.the Minister say how much resource the Government has invested in

:32:23. > :32:33.plugging the gap left in the light of the removal of the scheme at

:32:34. > :32:41.present? I hope the Minister can fully address all issues raised by

:32:42. > :32:47.colleagues in this debate. You will have two minutes once the Minister

:32:48. > :32:51.sits down. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I would

:32:52. > :32:55.like to begin by congratulating my honourable friend, the member from

:32:56. > :32:59.St Ives, for securing this debate which gives us an opportunity to

:33:00. > :33:04.recognise the importance of the food, farming and fisheries sector,

:33:05. > :33:08.which employs around one in seven of all workers in this country. I

:33:09. > :33:13.should start by declaring an interest in that I, as some of my

:33:14. > :33:19.colleagues will know, studied agriculture, I attended an

:33:20. > :33:22.agricultural college in the early 90s and studied for a higher

:33:23. > :33:27.National diploma in commercial horticulture and I did a number of

:33:28. > :33:33.other courses through the local college which was mentioned in the

:33:34. > :33:39.debate earlier, Cornwall College in my constituency, which had some very

:33:40. > :33:44.good work in this area, and I have another college in my area links to

:33:45. > :33:49.Cornwall College, again one of the country's leading agricultural

:33:50. > :33:54.colleges. This is an issue I am passionate about because it is one I

:33:55. > :33:58.choose to study myself, and I think, as I said earlier, the food, farming

:33:59. > :34:02.and fisheries sector provides a huge variety of career opportunities

:34:03. > :34:11.including many requiring stem skills. Food manufacturing is the

:34:12. > :34:14.biggest sector in this country for manufacturing, employing around

:34:15. > :34:22.400,000 people and providing one sixth of the total manufacturing GDA

:34:23. > :34:27.in this country. In the 2016 productivity report, the food and

:34:28. > :34:34.drink Federation estimated 130,000 jobs would have to be filled between

:34:35. > :34:38.2014 and 2024. With food engineers and scientists in demand

:34:39. > :34:41.particularly. Clearly there are great opportunities in the food

:34:42. > :34:47.manufacturing sector reported a's talented young people to build their

:34:48. > :34:51.future careers. Agricultural technologies are transforming

:34:52. > :34:56.farming, creating new types of jobs needing new types of skills.

:34:57. > :34:59.Successful modern farming requires technical proficiency, business

:35:00. > :35:05.acumen and entrepreneur skills. I recently met a group of Tesco Young

:35:06. > :35:08.farmers who were investing in developing their business,

:35:09. > :35:11.leadership and management skills, and their understanding of the wider

:35:12. > :35:17.supply chain issues whilst balancing busy jobs on poultry, dairy, arable

:35:18. > :35:23.and sheep farms. The food and farming sector is also important to

:35:24. > :35:27.our industry that has a presence across the country and it is

:35:28. > :35:30.interesting we have had contributions from the far

:35:31. > :35:37.south-west and also from the other end of the country, from Midlothian,

:35:38. > :35:43.and Yorkshire, talking about the importance of this sector to their

:35:44. > :35:47.own area. I know it is a significant employer in Cornwall. I have a

:35:48. > :35:50.number of important food manufacturing businesses, clotted

:35:51. > :35:56.cream and fisheries, in my constituency. Farming alone employs

:35:57. > :36:04.around 64,000 people in the south-west and food from Cornwall

:36:05. > :36:10.lists more than 330 businesses producing quality food and drink,

:36:11. > :36:16.famous for the clotted cream, Cornish pasties but also Cornish

:36:17. > :36:20.sardines or pilchards and oysters. Sardines and oysters leads me to

:36:21. > :36:24.another sector which is important in parts of Cornwall, including in my

:36:25. > :36:32.honourable friend's constituency, the home to new linen. The UK

:36:33. > :36:35.seafood industry offers a wide variety of careers including

:36:36. > :36:41.fishing, agriculture, processing, retail and food service. There can

:36:42. > :36:45.be no doubt that across the whole of food, farming and fisheries sectors,

:36:46. > :36:50.there are fantastic opportunities for young people to build exciting,

:36:51. > :36:57.challenging and successful careers. I want to talk a little bit about

:36:58. > :37:01.the industrial strategy and post-16 skills plan. To secure the skilled

:37:02. > :37:05.workforce that the food, farming and fisheries sector needs for the

:37:06. > :37:10.future, government and industry as work in partnership to prioritise

:37:11. > :37:13.training and skills. It is crucial that there are clear entry routes

:37:14. > :37:17.into the sector to help young people embark on their careers and that

:37:18. > :37:21.employers invest in recruiting, training and developing their staff.

:37:22. > :37:26.This government has introduced a number of policies on skills. The

:37:27. > :37:29.industrial strategy Green paper published in January this year

:37:30. > :37:37.includes skills as one of its core pillars and has a particular focus

:37:38. > :37:40.on stem. The post-16 skills plan published in July 2016 aims to

:37:41. > :37:48.reform technical education by introducing 15 routes or key levels,

:37:49. > :37:51.including agricultural, environmental and animal care,

:37:52. > :37:56.engineering and manufacturing, including food manufacturing, and

:37:57. > :38:00.catering and hospitality. These will provide technical education to equip

:38:01. > :38:05.students for skilled occupations, creating clear routes into the

:38:06. > :38:09.sector. Reforms to apprenticeships will also create fresh opportunities

:38:10. > :38:13.for people to develop new skills and progress their careers. The

:38:14. > :38:19.apprenticeships levy which came into force this month provides a new

:38:20. > :38:22.incentive for employers to invest in training. Many employers in that

:38:23. > :38:27.sector are rising to the challenge and the number of apprenticeship

:38:28. > :38:34.starts in agriculture, horticulture and food manufacturer increased in

:38:35. > :38:40.2015 /16 converts to the previous year. The Department for Education

:38:41. > :38:45.is also exploring options to allow up to 10% of apprenticeship funds to

:38:46. > :38:49.be transferred down the supply chain from 2018, bringing the benefits of

:38:50. > :38:56.apprenticeships to even more businesses and in Defra we are keen

:38:57. > :38:59.to promote this because it means small farm enterprises within a

:39:00. > :39:02.supply chain may find it easier to benefit from the apprenticeship

:39:03. > :39:10.levy. Apprenticeships provide great opportunities both to train new

:39:11. > :39:15.entrants and to upscale and develop existing members of staff and I am

:39:16. > :39:22.delighted that it exciting new apprenticeship standards have been

:39:23. > :39:32.approved for delivery and many more are under development. Sharing their

:39:33. > :39:38.pension levy downline is very welcome. 1.I would make, in Suffolk

:39:39. > :39:42.a lot of businesses are small or medium-sized businesses. What will

:39:43. > :39:48.you do to make sure in the discussions he has maintaining the

:39:49. > :40:00.quality it is not dominated by large sector,? It is important and we have

:40:01. > :40:02.people from the sector involved in the development of these new

:40:03. > :40:09.apprenticeships. The idea that I had for this came when I visited a

:40:10. > :40:15.McCain 's factory manufacturing chips from potatoes where it was

:40:16. > :40:19.clear they add a well-managed apprenticeship programme but in

:40:20. > :40:24.their supply chain they had 300 potato farms and those farmers in

:40:25. > :40:30.many cases will not have an HR director to take care and look after

:40:31. > :40:34.apprenticeship programmes professionally so it seemed there

:40:35. > :40:39.was an opportunity to be able to use organisation and skill sets that

:40:40. > :40:43.people like McCain 's have two foster apprenticeships on farms in

:40:44. > :40:48.places like Norfolk and Suffolk and elsewhere where the potatoes are

:40:49. > :40:51.grown. I have been privileged to meet a number of apprentices as the

:40:52. > :40:57.minister responsible for agriculture, fisheries and food

:40:58. > :41:03.during my time. And I know what great careers can begin from a...

:41:04. > :41:07.Apprenticeships. I recently spoke alongside a former apprentice at an

:41:08. > :41:13.event for unemployed young people interested in careers in food and

:41:14. > :41:15.farming. This young man had decided to do a mechanical engineering

:41:16. > :41:20.apprenticeship instead of following a conventional university degree and

:41:21. > :41:24.after four years of training was earning more than ?40,000 per year.

:41:25. > :41:28.Apprenticeships are a brilliant alternative to university because

:41:29. > :41:32.they allow apprentices to an while they learn and new apprenticeship

:41:33. > :41:37.standards are being developed at degree level and apprenticeships

:41:38. > :41:39.provide fantastic learning opportunities by allowing

:41:40. > :41:46.apprentices to develop their new skills on the job. Employers also

:41:47. > :41:48.benefit from having apprentices. It is calculating the average person

:41:49. > :41:54.who completes their apprenticeship increases as this productivity by

:41:55. > :41:59.around ?214 per week to increased profits and productivity and better

:42:00. > :42:03.quality products. Small employers provide fantastic opportunities for

:42:04. > :42:09.people to get on the career ladder. 96% of the food manufacturing sector

:42:10. > :42:16.are SMEs and they can benefit from apprentices. They only have to pay

:42:17. > :42:25.10% of the cost of training their apprentices and the Government will

:42:26. > :42:31.pay the remaining 90%. He is making an excellent case for the steps the

:42:32. > :42:37.Government are taking to promote apprenticeships in the agricultural

:42:38. > :42:40.sector. I wondered, given the fact that many people decide upon where

:42:41. > :42:47.their careers and lives are going to take them at a very early age, 1314,

:42:48. > :42:50.what steps has he thought can be done to encourage younger people to

:42:51. > :42:53.think about careers in agriculture and the whole supply chain, from

:42:54. > :42:58.that age, and what work is he doing with schools? He has raised an

:42:59. > :43:08.important point. I was going to return to this point

:43:09. > :43:14.because I believe it is an important one that I intend to return to. The

:43:15. > :43:18.Institute for apprenticeships began work on new apprentices this month

:43:19. > :43:25.and will, in time, oversee the development of both T levels and

:43:26. > :43:28.apprenticeships, helping to drive up standards and ensure quality. I'm

:43:29. > :43:34.delighted that two members of the board, Dame Vera McKendrick of

:43:35. > :43:39.Nestle, and a representative Walter Smith fine foods, bring expert

:43:40. > :43:42.knowledge of the food sector. It is important to recognise that we have

:43:43. > :43:53.to have continuous career progression once people are in the

:43:54. > :43:58.industry at the agricultural and horticultural... There are

:43:59. > :44:03.demonstration farms so that there can be a sharing of expertise

:44:04. > :44:08.through their meetings, digital tools and knowledge exchange

:44:09. > :44:11.publications. And of course international benchmarking to learn

:44:12. > :44:16.from the experiences of other countries. I finally wish to say a

:44:17. > :44:22.word about the colleges who last year came together to launch a new

:44:23. > :44:28.national college in agriculture, and this was to thread together some of

:44:29. > :44:32.the activities that all of the colleges are engaged within order to

:44:33. > :44:37.secure a progression of more people towards level three qualifications,

:44:38. > :44:41.again with the aim of having continuous professional career

:44:42. > :44:45.development. I will turn to the issue of the image of the industry

:44:46. > :44:52.and the work being done to try to encourage more young people to

:44:53. > :44:55.participate that the Member for Saint Isaac raised. Clearly there

:44:56. > :44:58.are opportunities in the food, fishing and agriculture sector, so

:44:59. > :45:02.we should be encouraging more people to explore this sector when they

:45:03. > :45:07.think about their future. Overall, we currently have the highest

:45:08. > :45:14.comparison rates since records began at 74% and youth unemployed but has

:45:15. > :45:19.been falling and it remains important that young people are able

:45:20. > :45:23.to take place in the labour market and understand the options

:45:24. > :45:27.available. Careers in food and farming are too frequently seen as

:45:28. > :45:32.low-paid, low skilled and lacking in progression opportunities and we

:45:33. > :45:37.need to challenge some of the outdated myths that are out there

:45:38. > :45:41.and challenge the great careers this sector offers. Engineers, scientists

:45:42. > :45:45.and technicians are at the cutting edge of innovation in aggregate tax

:45:46. > :45:50.and food production. Industry supported organisations, such as one

:45:51. > :45:54.that my honourable friend the member force and I was mentioned, but also

:45:55. > :45:58.the IGD and the national skills academy for food and drink are

:45:59. > :46:01.working to tackle these misconceptions and to increase

:46:02. > :46:09.awareness of careers in the sector through initiatives such as Tasty

:46:10. > :46:15.Careers and Leading Briton Boult Future, which is run by the IGD,

:46:16. > :46:21.through to The World Is Your Oyster, and all of these different schemes

:46:22. > :46:27.highlight the varied pass the seafood industry has to offer.

:46:28. > :46:29.Within government we are highlighting some of the superb

:46:30. > :46:39.apprentices that are already working in this industry through a

:46:40. > :46:44.government campaign. The Secretary of State in Defra hosted a round

:46:45. > :46:48.table, bringing together a range of organisations that start a dialogue

:46:49. > :46:54.about what industry and government could do together to champion

:46:55. > :46:58.opportunities available in the farming sector. The round table

:46:59. > :47:03.heard directly from apprentices working from poor into a leading

:47:04. > :47:07.food businesses, Nestle and mandalas, about their experiences in

:47:08. > :47:11.the sector and the best will -- people to sell the sector are young

:47:12. > :47:17.people themselves starting out on their own careers in the industry

:47:18. > :47:25.and, indeed... I will give way. The Minister is setting out some fine

:47:26. > :47:29.examples of what's happening but can I press him on the industry's need

:47:30. > :47:33.for seasonal workers? We do want to get young people into long-term jobs

:47:34. > :47:42.that he is talking about and that is really important but there will be

:47:43. > :47:45.continually a need for seasonal workers but how can that helped to

:47:46. > :47:51.perpetuate our agricultural industry into the future? I will return to

:47:52. > :47:55.the honourable lady's point because she made her remarks as well and

:47:56. > :47:57.given that we have some time in this debate, I will address that after

:47:58. > :48:01.but since this is predominantly about careers in agriculture, I do

:48:02. > :48:07.want to focus on how we can encourage more young people into

:48:08. > :48:11.those careers. And above honourable members have mentioned the issue of

:48:12. > :48:15.women in farming and there is an organisation called Women In

:48:16. > :48:20.Farming. I've spoken at one of their events couple of years ago and the

:48:21. > :48:24.former Secretary of State also addressed their event. I can also

:48:25. > :48:29.report to honourable members that the Tesco young farmers' group that

:48:30. > :48:34.I mentioned earlier in my contribution, of the ten farmers

:48:35. > :48:38.that came as part of that group, four were winning. So I do believe

:48:39. > :48:42.that we are making progress and it is essential that we don't overlook

:48:43. > :48:46.the great contribution that women make to some of these careers,

:48:47. > :48:51.particularly when we have areas such as science where we have women

:48:52. > :48:56.increasingly doing so well. This is a challenge that many countries in

:48:57. > :49:00.the world face. Indeed, when I attended the G7 in Japan last year,

:49:01. > :49:05.one of the big focus as they had was how they could encourage more women

:49:06. > :49:10.into farming. I have to say, some of their ideas probably wouldn't cut

:49:11. > :49:14.it. I remember them demonstrating a tractor that had pink patterns on

:49:15. > :49:21.the side of the bonnet in the idea that that might have helped. I'm not

:49:22. > :49:24.sure that would work here. The honourable member for St Ives

:49:25. > :49:30.mentioned the importance of encouraging children of school age

:49:31. > :49:35.into farming. The plan in place at the moment does actively encourage

:49:36. > :49:39.all schools to give children of primary school age and experience on

:49:40. > :49:44.a farm so that they can see how food is produced. A number of the county

:49:45. > :49:50.show associations also run very good projects. The Royal Cornwall show

:49:51. > :49:54.association runs an event every year and invites schools from across the

:49:55. > :49:59.country to come and learn about farming and farming careers. The

:50:00. > :50:02.devil can to show has, as usual, copied Cornwall and is doing a

:50:03. > :50:06.similar project but that's great. We need as many as possible to be

:50:07. > :50:15.promoting farming as a career to schools. The honourable member for

:50:16. > :50:18.Midlothian talked about the importance of farming and fishing

:50:19. > :50:23.north of the border in Scotland and it is an incredibly important

:50:24. > :50:27.industry. I regularly visit Scotland, particularly with the

:50:28. > :50:31.fishing industry, and I remember last year during a visit to the

:50:32. > :50:35.Shetland Islands where they have one of the key academies that trains

:50:36. > :50:40.skippers in fishing vessels and captaining fishing vessels. He

:50:41. > :50:46.mentioned the average age of farmers and this has been a long-standing

:50:47. > :50:48.problem that many countries in the world face. Often the statistics

:50:49. > :50:54.mask the reality and it is often the case that the farmer is unwilling to

:50:55. > :50:59.let go of the purse strings but the manager of the holding is the next

:51:00. > :51:01.generation down but we are keen to encourage more new entrance and

:51:02. > :51:06.there have been a number of projects, including some in Wales

:51:07. > :51:10.and southern Scotland and indeed in Cornwall there is something called

:51:11. > :51:16.the fresh start initiative where they did some work to see how they

:51:17. > :51:21.could both help people retire whilst at the same time creating new

:51:22. > :51:25.opportunities for new entrance. He mentioned it is an uncertain world

:51:26. > :51:31.with Brexit and I would simply say this. I believe it is a fantastic

:51:32. > :51:35.opportunity. I am very much of a glass half full view with this. We

:51:36. > :51:38.have a great opportunity to design and agriculture policy that is

:51:39. > :51:42.better suited to us here in all parts of the UK. I can tell him that

:51:43. > :51:45.just last week I met NFUS to talk about some of their thoughts and

:51:46. > :51:48.ideas about how we can do policy differently in the future and the

:51:49. > :51:53.one thing I can assure him is that I'm yet to find a fisherman in

:51:54. > :51:56.Scotland who would like us to rejoin the CFP, having left it, so I can

:51:57. > :52:01.tell him that the fishing industry, almost universally, believes that

:52:02. > :52:05.the decision to leave the EU was the right one and they are relishing the

:52:06. > :52:09.opportunity that this brings to the Scottish fishing fleet. The shadow

:52:10. > :52:17.minister and the honourable member for Midlothian mentioned the issue

:52:18. > :52:20.of Labour. As she will know, the Prime Minister has made clear that

:52:21. > :52:24.she wishes to respect the rights of EU citizens that are here working in

:52:25. > :52:30.the UK now. She made that point very early on, very soon after the

:52:31. > :52:34.decision to leave the EU. She made a perfectly reasonable point, which is

:52:35. > :52:36.obviously that we would expect that to be reciprocated and I don't think

:52:37. > :52:40.that that is controversial, and she's also been made clear that she

:52:41. > :52:44.hopes it is polygamy settled very early negotiations, so I believe we

:52:45. > :52:50.can give reassurance to those who are living working in the UK now.

:52:51. > :52:53.When it comes to seasonal labour, as the honourable lady points out, I

:52:54. > :52:58.would simply say that having a controlled migration policy and

:52:59. > :53:01.ending a presumption of free movement doesn't mean that you pull

:53:02. > :53:05.up the drawbridge and stop while immigration. At sin-bin means what

:53:06. > :53:09.it says, that you have control of it, and it will then be for a future

:53:10. > :53:13.government to decide what sort of work permits it wishes to grant,

:53:14. > :53:17.whether it grants short-term work permits, whether it just grants work

:53:18. > :53:21.permits for the more skilled people, and it can do so based on an

:53:22. > :53:25.assessment of what our needs are and if there is a need for seasonal

:53:26. > :53:30.agricultural labour then, of course, a future government will have at its

:53:31. > :53:33.disposal the ability to grant the types of permits that are needed so

:53:34. > :53:39.I believe all of these issues can be dealt with. In conclusion, I believe

:53:40. > :53:42.it has been a very important debate on a very important subject that is

:53:43. > :53:46.dear to my heart. I believe we've made some very good progress with

:53:47. > :53:49.the work that has been done on apprenticeships and some of the

:53:50. > :53:53.great work that is being done in schools to promote agriculture and

:53:54. > :53:58.food as a career. There is further to go but I believe we have made a

:53:59. > :54:04.very good start. No more than two minutes, please. Thank you to the

:54:05. > :54:09.Minister, who encouraged me when I first arrived in this post to

:54:10. > :54:16.participate in a debate about on that. The Minister has said that the

:54:17. > :54:23.opportunity exists within food and farming, and that jobs are

:54:24. > :54:26.increasing in the hi-tech area. I absolutely agree, there is real

:54:27. > :54:31.potential to create many new well-paid jobs and that is what

:54:32. > :54:35.rural areas in particular need to hear and need to see realised. The

:54:36. > :54:39.Minister referred to the new T levels and they are welcome and are

:54:40. > :54:44.an important step in addressing the skills gap but can I ask the

:54:45. > :54:51.Minister to encourage Defra and other departments, to work with the

:54:52. > :54:55.Department for Education to assess how effective and clear the pathway

:54:56. > :55:00.into food, fishing and farming really is for children, so schools

:55:01. > :55:05.can be encouraged to really focus on much more than just a journey

:55:06. > :55:12.towards a university degree or some similar. Finally, as we introduce

:55:13. > :55:16.various things like making tax digital, and the Minister also

:55:17. > :55:17.contribute to that debate as far as how people already in fishing,

:55:18. > :55:24.farming and food production, particularly small businesses, can

:55:25. > :55:27.embrace that opportunity, in terms of digitising tax etc and making

:55:28. > :55:31.sure we've got the broadband and mobile phone capacities to deliver.

:55:32. > :55:37.I wish to thank all those who took part for the opportunity to

:55:38. > :55:42.participate in this debate. The question is that this House has

:55:43. > :55:48.debated opportunities in food and farming. The ayes have it. Suspended

:55:49. > :56:03.until 4pm. Order, order. I called James Heatley

:56:04. > :56:08.to move the motion. Thank you very much, and it is an honour to serve

:56:09. > :56:10.under your chairmanship, and I am really honoured to have secured the

:56:11. > :56:18.debate today on the penultimate day of this Parliament to raise Wells's

:56:19. > :56:22.bid to become the UK City of Culture in 2021. As a proud constituency MP,

:56:23. > :56:27.I've been supporting the bid from its genesis, which wasn't very long

:56:28. > :56:33.ago, and I will continue to support the bid because I think it has an

:56:34. > :56:38.enormous potential to change the stars of both Wales and the wider

:56:39. > :56:44.Somerset area. -- Wells. I think it is important to place on record that

:56:45. > :56:47.in the absence of a large civic construct to put together this bid,

:56:48. > :56:53.it has really fallen into the hands of volunteers from in and around

:56:54. > :56:56.Wells to do so and particular mention must go to Andy Webb, who

:56:57. > :57:00.has volunteered to do this, and it is quite phenomenal the amount he

:57:01. > :57:04.has achieved in such a short space of time. Before I talk about Wells's

:57:05. > :57:10.bid specifically, I also wanted to say a few words in my capacity as

:57:11. > :57:13.the chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Iran cinders

:57:14. > :57:17.three, not least because I see that Nicky Wire is hoping to return to

:57:18. > :57:26.Parliament and it may well be that they restore him to the chairmanship

:57:27. > :57:31.when he gets here. I have learned an enormous amount about the ingenuity

:57:32. > :57:36.of the UK events industry and its role in driving our visitor economy

:57:37. > :57:40.and our role in showcasing British business by the calibre and

:57:41. > :57:47.expertise of the events that we put on around the world. And so, out,

:57:48. > :57:50.have I seen the value of events on offer locally, regionally and

:57:51. > :57:54.nationally, such as the City of Culture, which is a series of events

:57:55. > :57:57.over the course of a year or so but in Londonderry it was worth ?100

:57:58. > :58:04.million to the local economy and in Hull, it has already been worth ?60

:58:05. > :58:08.million to local economy so you can see why Wells and wider Somerset is

:58:09. > :58:11.so keen on winning that status. It would be transformative. I give way

:58:12. > :58:17.to the honourable member for Weston-Super-Mare.

:58:18. > :58:22.This is an important issue for his consistency and those of us around.

:58:23. > :58:29.You mention the bid has been put together by a small dedicated band

:58:30. > :58:36.of volunteers. I'm sure he has already been speaking to Visit

:58:37. > :58:39.Somerset, Somerset tourism, and I suspect they will have engaged

:58:40. > :58:46.strongly in creating this if only because the knock-on effect on my

:58:47. > :58:54.home and their accommodation industry could be profound. I agree.

:58:55. > :58:58.It is a huge opportunity not just for Wales but for Weston-Super-Mare

:58:59. > :59:02.as well. Visit Somerset along with a number of other local bodies have

:59:03. > :59:08.been involved in supporting those volunteers in putting together the

:59:09. > :59:12.bid. I think what we need to discuss today is the difference in Wales's

:59:13. > :59:17.bids so the minister might satisfy himself that the bid process lends

:59:18. > :59:25.itself is keenly to rural areas as it does to urban because Wales's bid

:59:26. > :59:29.is not about the post-industrial regeneration that was the

:59:30. > :59:33.centrepiece for a Londonderry and Hull. It is a different opportunity

:59:34. > :59:39.in Somerset and I will talk more later about that. Our bid draws on a

:59:40. > :59:44.rich cultural heritage way out of proportion to the size of our city.

:59:45. > :59:48.We are England's smallest city but our cathedral has a centuries long

:59:49. > :59:51.tradition in music and so does the now ruined Glastonbury Abbey which

:59:52. > :59:59.still hosts wonderful musical events. We have the Glastonbury

:00:00. > :00:02.Festival down the road and there is Arthurian legend all over Avalon and

:00:03. > :00:07.Glastonbury itself which will be a wonderful team to draw on throughout

:00:08. > :00:12.the city of culture year. There are are internationally significant art

:00:13. > :00:18.galleries, and Opera Festival, comedy festivals and literature

:00:19. > :00:23.festivals, food festivals, film festivals, we have a brand-new

:00:24. > :00:28.world-class concert hall and we are the location for many movies and TV

:00:29. > :00:35.programmes and so much more. All of that goes alongside a rural

:00:36. > :00:41.agricultural life and an incredible natural history whilst also

:00:42. > :00:46.embracing the digital arts industry as we tap into the success of those

:00:47. > :00:59.sectors in Bristol and Bath. The cultural offer is more developed and

:01:00. > :01:06.diverse in Wales, smallest -- Wells. The bid and -- the bid

:01:07. > :01:10.understandably requires more. I wonder if the Minister think it is

:01:11. > :01:14.fair given we are trying to build a country that works for everyone and

:01:15. > :01:17.we must recognise that includes developing the economies of rural

:01:18. > :01:23.areas as well as urban. I hope the minister in a few days he has left

:01:24. > :01:30.accepting his civil servants are almost locked down on the purdah,

:01:31. > :01:34.Willie satisfy himself that when small local authority areas are

:01:35. > :01:37.bidding for these things then perhaps the process must be weighted

:01:38. > :01:42.to understand they're not able to underwrite heads in the same way as

:01:43. > :01:46.large at Bolton areas might be able to -- larger metropolitan areas. The

:01:47. > :01:52.advantage of volunteers coming together as they have in the Wells

:01:53. > :01:58.is that private sector engagement, very encouraging, Heritage Lottery

:01:59. > :02:01.funding has been involved, and I hope the Minister Willock carefully

:02:02. > :02:07.at the process to make sure that if we are really aiming to create a

:02:08. > :02:11.country that works for everyone, all regions competing equitably, we make

:02:12. > :02:14.sure the bid process doesn't disadvantage to the more rural areas

:02:15. > :02:22.and those where local authorities are not able to resource the beds

:02:23. > :02:28.more fully. I applaud him for bringing this debate to this

:02:29. > :02:34.chamber. I believe the idea behind these cities of culture is to

:02:35. > :02:38.improve economic prosperity, and whilst Wells is a glorious location

:02:39. > :02:49.with its cathedral, the location for the film Hot Fuzz. Is it not also

:02:50. > :02:54.sitting importantly in its rural environment, an area which is quite

:02:55. > :03:03.poor, and the knock-on effect from attracting city of cultural status

:03:04. > :03:07.could reverberate through the rest of Somerset? It could improve the

:03:08. > :03:18.productivity needs to address. We need to do more. She is exactly

:03:19. > :03:21.right. It is so easy to assume if you were flying over our

:03:22. > :03:26.constituencies and you would cease many trees, fields, you would think

:03:27. > :03:30.that all is well down below. There is a hidden deprivation in rural

:03:31. > :03:35.areas that is just as significant a challenge as the challenge you would

:03:36. > :03:40.find in a city area. The challenge is arguably much more because rather

:03:41. > :03:44.than at all being concentrated in one area and therefore name of your

:03:45. > :03:49.intervention is more defined, in rural areas too often those families

:03:50. > :03:55.living in deprivation are on their own, the only family in the hamlet

:03:56. > :03:59.to live in that circumstance, or the families are scattered across a town

:04:00. > :04:10.or village and they require the ability to intervene in a light

:04:11. > :04:13.switches such more challenging. There is an opportunity to uplift

:04:14. > :04:20.the entire area with city of culture status. You find people living in

:04:21. > :04:24.deprivation in isolation and bring them into this and do something

:04:25. > :04:29.which could be potentially transformative to their lives. There

:04:30. > :04:32.are a number of obvious benefits to the city of culture status that the

:04:33. > :04:37.Minister will be well aware of and will be in common with all other bid

:04:38. > :04:41.cities. Clearly the most obvious place to start is the visitor

:04:42. > :04:51.economy and Somerset's visitor economy is already drawing, drawing

:04:52. > :04:53.from 1.2 to 1.3 billion in the past years. Visit Somerset have been

:04:54. > :04:58.looking at different ways of marketing the county and have seen

:04:59. > :05:03.huge success. So how the various tourism expos that have come here.

:05:04. > :05:08.The Minister will want to pass back congratulations to Visit Britain who

:05:09. > :05:14.have brought international delegations and tour operators to

:05:15. > :05:18.Somerset. I hosted a group of Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and

:05:19. > :05:22.Mexican tour operators and it was great to see them brought to the

:05:23. > :05:29.area by Visit Britain to see what we had to offer. The reality is that

:05:30. > :05:32.Somerset is too often the drive-through county on the way to

:05:33. > :05:37.the south-west and there is more on offer. That is music to your ears, I

:05:38. > :05:43.know, but I am sure you will not begrudge us if we hold them up a

:05:44. > :05:47.little longer at our end of the peninsula. There is more that could

:05:48. > :05:51.be done to the visitor economy in our part of the south-west and it

:05:52. > :05:57.would be great to see the city of culture acting as a catalyst for

:05:58. > :05:59.growth. It would be fantastic to see city of culture status acting as a

:06:00. > :06:06.catalyst for infrastructure improvement. The railway line south

:06:07. > :06:14.of Bristol are not planned for electrification and the line from

:06:15. > :06:18.Reading through Taunton to the south-west is not being electrified

:06:19. > :06:25.as quickly as we might have hoped. Wraps city of culture status or

:06:26. > :06:30.something similar might be a reason to accelerate improvement. It might

:06:31. > :06:37.be a great book for a number of airlines who have looked at bringing

:06:38. > :06:43.in daily services from Bristol Airport to New York, Doha, and other

:06:44. > :06:47.places, perhaps this could be the final encouragement they need to

:06:48. > :06:50.commit to that service, not just good for Bristol and the greater

:06:51. > :06:54.area but fantastic for the whole south-west peninsula. City of

:06:55. > :06:59.culture status could be a catalyst for that. There may well be the

:07:00. > :07:04.opportunity to use the catalyst for road improvements. My honourable

:07:05. > :07:14.friends for Bath and North East Somerset have been doing great work

:07:15. > :07:25.on improving the route from the M4. I have been doing work on

:07:26. > :07:28.improvements on other roads. What a great thing if city of culture

:07:29. > :07:36.status would be a catalyst for road improvements. The Minister has been

:07:37. > :07:42.doing great work on broadband and mobile coverage. Given perhaps there

:07:43. > :07:44.might be some sort of growth on the digital arts industry emerging

:07:45. > :07:53.within the Somerset area, perhaps the city of culture might also

:07:54. > :08:03.catalyse the Digital economy and see us accelerate. I feel I am speaking

:08:04. > :08:07.up for the rest of Somerset. The south-west has historically been

:08:08. > :08:15.allowed the productivity of the rest of the country, about 7% converted

:08:16. > :08:19.to 8%. Would he see this as a great opportunity to address that? The

:08:20. > :08:23.knock-on effect would be enormous. If we could get a city of culture in

:08:24. > :08:29.the south-west, which would be unusual. The money is going north.

:08:30. > :08:33.It could do so much good work if we brought it to the south-west and it

:08:34. > :08:40.really would have a big impact on productivity. She is an excellent

:08:41. > :08:45.friends to have entered a's pursuit of the Minister. She is entirely

:08:46. > :08:51.right. Productivity is a potential gain from this. One of the other

:08:52. > :08:54.things I think that the city of culture status might help us to

:08:55. > :08:59.achieve is we are blessed in Somerset with really outstanding

:09:00. > :09:04.schools and colleges but too often we are training people up and giving

:09:05. > :09:08.them an education for which they think they have no option but to

:09:09. > :09:14.move away to pursue their careers and I wonder if the city of culture

:09:15. > :09:20.status, in that it might attract investment and create a buzz about

:09:21. > :09:29.living in Somerset, and it might come about in my Honourable friend's

:09:30. > :09:38.constituency, some excellent work in the arts and delivering skills and

:09:39. > :09:42.marketing, I wonder if city of culture status might have the effect

:09:43. > :09:46.of helping to rebalance in some small way Somerset's demographic as

:09:47. > :09:51.well by keeping young people in the county. If we have managed to

:09:52. > :09:55.improve infrastructure and create a younger workforce with the right

:09:56. > :09:59.skills needed by the industries that are there and are emerging then we

:10:00. > :10:02.achieved a significant productivity boost as my Honourable friend

:10:03. > :10:07.suggested and that would be a fantastic legacy to see in Somerset

:10:08. > :10:12.not only because it would change Somerset's stars in terms of how the

:10:13. > :10:15.population is skilled and availability of the workforce but

:10:16. > :10:20.the availability of that newly skilled workforce would bring with

:10:21. > :10:25.it inward investment and new companies, hugely exciting. Perhaps

:10:26. > :10:31.we could see the city of culture status as part of the legacy of

:10:32. > :10:36.Hinkley point which is already doing something to rebalance our region's

:10:37. > :10:40.economy. What if, having brought all the expertise and know-how to the

:10:41. > :10:44.country, we have follow-up industries coming behind and city of

:10:45. > :10:52.culture status helping to reinforce what a wonderful quality of life one

:10:53. > :10:59.could have living in Somerset. The timing seems to be right and I hope

:11:00. > :11:06.the Minister will agree, not just for the city of Wells but from the

:11:07. > :11:11.south-west as a whole. He has given such a catalogue that it is making

:11:12. > :11:14.Somerset Sound like such an attractive place, which it is, but

:11:15. > :11:22.also we have the Somerset Levels very close, I'm massive wildlife

:11:23. > :11:26.offer which we can build on. In my constituency we have the County Down

:11:27. > :11:32.of Taunton that it could build its links with Wells. We are trying to

:11:33. > :11:38.build our cultural offer. We have the Somerset County ground. We could

:11:39. > :11:44.build a whole offer in Somerset but we could focus it with spin offs

:11:45. > :11:50.from Wells. She is contributing powerfully on the heart of our

:11:51. > :11:56.country and her constituency. England's smallest city cannot do

:11:57. > :12:03.this alone. It is an offer that incumbents is -- offer that

:12:04. > :12:10.encompasses many places nearby but also further afield in Taunton,

:12:11. > :12:15.Bath, Bristol. The Minister will say so what? Everyone says it will bring

:12:16. > :12:19.more tourism, bring productivity and investment, and he is not wrong. But

:12:20. > :12:23.that is where I think the bid from a small city in a rural setting

:12:24. > :12:27.becomes interesting because I would argue that the challenge of

:12:28. > :12:33.yesteryear was the regeneration of post-industrial cities. I think the

:12:34. > :12:38.new challenge for the next decade is how we build more resilient

:12:39. > :12:42.communities to deal with loneliness, ageing population, the challenges of

:12:43. > :12:46.mental health, particularly dementia among the ageing population. In

:12:47. > :12:51.Somerset we have those problems quite acutely already. We are in the

:12:52. > :12:58.vanguard of the nation when it comes to the ageing population. I think if

:12:59. > :13:02.we were to start to see the city of culture as an opportunity for the

:13:03. > :13:07.arts to be something that brings communities together, enhances the

:13:08. > :13:11.culture of volunteering that exists in our communities but could become

:13:12. > :13:15.so much war and therefore to build networks of people looking out for

:13:16. > :13:18.one another and it is the arts, the city of culture status that has

:13:19. > :13:19.brought them together in the first place, I think that is hugely

:13:20. > :13:29.exciting. Then Minister will, I hope, reflect

:13:30. > :13:35.that there is an economic challenge in the Southwest. Although there are

:13:36. > :13:40.a lot of Brownfield sites you might have seen in other cities, he might

:13:41. > :13:46.reflect the Southwest as a region has lagged behind in investment for

:13:47. > :13:49.some time and that something like this, a flagship project of

:13:50. > :13:54.international significance really driving the local economy, would be

:13:55. > :13:59.really exciting and would tick the boxes. But I hope he will also see

:14:00. > :14:04.that, if the government is one of the challenges the next decade will

:14:05. > :14:09.be challenging loneliness and helping the elderly to live in their

:14:10. > :14:14.own homes, so they don't need social care, so they don't need to be in

:14:15. > :14:18.hospital, we are starting to see their City of Culture status as a

:14:19. > :14:22.catalyst for developing resilience, to develop networks of volunteers

:14:23. > :14:28.and embrace the horsepower in communities and voluntary groups,

:14:29. > :14:33.and using that as a celebration of our community to create a legacy of

:14:34. > :14:38.support and looking out for one another in a resilient committee. I

:14:39. > :14:42.think that is hugely exciting. You have indulged me and my colleagues

:14:43. > :14:47.from Somerset for long enough, but it has been a huge honour to stand

:14:48. > :14:52.here and pitch to you at the Minister the value of the bid for

:14:53. > :14:55.Wells to become the City of Culture. I hope he will go away for of

:14:56. > :14:58.enthusiasm for what we have to offer and that we might be successful in

:14:59. > :15:11.reaching the short list in due course. Ministers to respond. It is

:15:12. > :15:16.a great pleasure to serve underage chairmanship, in what I expect to be

:15:17. > :15:25.the final Westminster Hall debate that I will respond to this

:15:26. > :15:30.Parliament. I congratulate the Member for Wells on securing this

:15:31. > :15:35.debate and also powerfully arguing for Wells to become the UK City of

:15:36. > :15:41.Culture in 2021. You can see why the people of Wells elected term,

:15:42. > :15:48.because he has a deep passion for his city. He makes the case and

:15:49. > :15:54.touched on some of the things he has been able to do in the two years he

:15:55. > :16:02.has been the MBA, to improve the city and life for its residents. And

:16:03. > :16:08.I wish him well in his bid to gain their trust to do that in the next

:16:09. > :16:12.parliament as well. You can see from today why such a passionate advocate

:16:13. > :16:19.is needed for the city of Wells and the surrounding areas. He makes the

:16:20. > :16:22.case more broadly, including the value of becoming the City of

:16:23. > :16:27.Culture to Somerset and the Southwest more widely. Under that UK

:16:28. > :16:32.City of Culture programme, places and compete to hold the title once

:16:33. > :16:38.every four years, and the prize is that title. There is no formal

:16:39. > :16:45.funding support, although there is a huge amount of support in drawing

:16:46. > :16:51.funding from all sorts of places, Private and public. And the

:16:52. > :16:54.programme uses this creativity and culture to transform a place,

:16:55. > :17:02.attracting visitors and bringing communities together. The

:17:03. > :17:05.competition was launched in January, it places have registered their

:17:06. > :17:12.intention to bed. Sunderland, Paisley, birth, Hereford, Warrington

:17:13. > :17:17.Saint Davids, Portsmouth and tempt one among others. The bids need to

:17:18. > :17:23.be received by the end of this week, so this is a timely debate and then

:17:24. > :17:29.they will be assessed by the advisory panel while Parliament is

:17:30. > :17:32.dissolved. Then a short list will be announced after the election, and

:17:33. > :17:41.the winning city announced by the end of this year. I thought it was

:17:42. > :17:46.really striking how he described the way he largely voluntary bid is

:17:47. > :17:53.coming together, drawing people from the community, from the private

:17:54. > :18:02.sector, of course, within the Council area, but led by volunteers.

:18:03. > :18:08.I pay tribute to those who have worked on the bed so far. And as the

:18:09. > :18:16.smallest city, there is an iconic selling point there as well. When it

:18:17. > :18:24.comes to looking at Wells, we have Harwich today about the cultural

:18:25. > :18:29.assets that already exist in Wells. The City of Culture is all about

:18:30. > :18:38.boosting those assets, that already exist, as well as adding new ones.

:18:39. > :18:41.In Wells in particular, this draws from an ancient tradition, the long

:18:42. > :18:51.and illustrious history, the cathedral, which has been in place

:18:52. > :18:58.since 909. The Bishop of Bath in Wells has been in the seat since

:18:59. > :19:05.1245. The current bishop, Peter Hancock, no relation, but a great

:19:06. > :19:13.man. There is a great heritage, 341 different listings, four of which

:19:14. > :19:19.are the Bishop's palace alone. He mentioned Glastonbury Festival and

:19:20. > :19:30.cheddar, the home of cheese. So, the variety, as well as the depth of the

:19:31. > :19:35.history, is a real attribute. The area has enjoyed significant

:19:36. > :19:40.investment from the Arts Council, who have invested 700,000, and the

:19:41. > :19:47.Heritage lottery fund, who have invested 3.5 million over the same

:19:48. > :19:50.period. Glastonbury Festival Theatre and the Circus of Glastonbury

:19:51. > :19:57.Festival benefited from grants this year. Last year, the Palace Trust

:19:58. > :20:02.were awarded money to help children engage with the Bishop's palace. So

:20:03. > :20:08.there has been public investment as well as private investment. Touching

:20:09. > :20:20.on a couple of things he said directly. I think that the backing

:20:21. > :20:26.of the steering team's mission by Visit Somerset and the support of

:20:27. > :20:30.local councils, institutions, businesses, carnivals working

:20:31. > :20:35.together is important. That is a very strong sense of pride in the

:20:36. > :20:41.area. There is, and I know some of the officials have already visited,

:20:42. > :20:47.as Wells has been a candidate city for a couple of months now. That

:20:48. > :20:53.coming together is an important part of delivering the project. But the

:20:54. > :20:56.thing that struck me most was what he said about looking at the City of

:20:57. > :21:04.Culture competition in a different way, not just to sport and physical

:21:05. > :21:09.and economic regeneration, but also to support and strengthen the

:21:10. > :21:16.resilience of communities, and the value of communities in a small city

:21:17. > :21:21.and rural setting. I thought that he put that very well, because he is

:21:22. > :21:28.right that Wells would be different as a choice from previous winners,

:21:29. > :21:38.where the focus has been on economic regeneration and social rejuvenation

:21:39. > :21:45.of an area that has had a difficult time over recent generations.

:21:46. > :21:48.Whereas Wells is about building on its success, but building stronger

:21:49. > :21:52.and more resilient communities. I thought he put that over very well,

:21:53. > :22:02.and I have noted that and we'll make sure that as noted by the judging

:22:03. > :22:05.panel. The value of the UK City of Culture competition, I think the

:22:06. > :22:13.evidence is that the value comes to all bidders. Just bidding brings

:22:14. > :22:19.value, it brings people together, it brings national attention as this

:22:20. > :22:23.debate is doing. And preparing the bid can generate new ideas for new

:22:24. > :22:29.partnerships. Bidding areas often think about the plans and develop

:22:30. > :22:33.them over time. Hull was only successful at the second attempt,

:22:34. > :22:38.but has been hugely successful this year. Indeed, the Both Carried said

:22:39. > :22:46.that hole was one of the top ten cities in the world to visit this

:22:47. > :22:52.year, and it has had a 60 million boost to its local economy, and more

:22:53. > :22:59.than 1 billion of investment. That is the benefit of winning, but it is

:23:00. > :23:04.the taking part accounts as well, because people pulling together with

:23:05. > :23:13.the goal of winning has its value. I also want to acknowledge the support

:23:14. > :23:19.that he has from the member for Taunton Deane, who has put together

:23:20. > :23:23.the wider benefits for Somerset, and also the member for

:23:24. > :23:30.Weston-Super-Mare, who made powerful supportive comments. That the value

:23:31. > :23:33.that is expected to the wider community, not just Wells, but the

:23:34. > :23:51.bid is really about Wells in Somerset. Picking up his points, we

:23:52. > :23:54.are finding that this urban/ rural divide is getting larger, and if

:23:55. > :23:58.Libby could do something to link the two together better, perhaps through

:23:59. > :24:06.the arts, I think there would be a really positive move. The member for

:24:07. > :24:13.Taunton Deane is a powerful advocate for her constituency and makes the

:24:14. > :24:18.case incredibly well for the importance of closing the urban/

:24:19. > :24:22.rural divide and making sure that people in Taunton and across the

:24:23. > :24:29.country gain the benefits of the arts and culture, and the technology

:24:30. > :24:37.is bringing right across rural and urban areas. And I have very much

:24:38. > :24:46.taken that on board. I will end, if I may, by saying that the member for

:24:47. > :24:56.Wells is a brilliant local representative. He is a terrific

:24:57. > :25:03.advocate for Wells, and I will give him all the encouragement in this

:25:04. > :25:08.date, and the bidders. That is only one thing I cannot give him, and

:25:09. > :25:19.that is that which he seeks, which is picked to lead today in his bid,

:25:20. > :25:25.along with many others, to make Wells the UK City of Culture in

:25:26. > :25:29.2021. What I can say is that thanks to his efforts, the bid they are

:25:30. > :25:34.making has been brought to the attention of people right at the

:25:35. > :25:42.most senior levels, so that it will get the very best shot that it can.

:25:43. > :25:48.We now move on to our next debate, and all the protagonists ICO here,

:25:49. > :25:56.so we can move smartly on. I will just wait for members to leave us,

:25:57. > :26:02.and the Minister to take his place. Welcome. It is a great pleasure to

:26:03. > :26:08.call upon David McIntosh to call the motion. It is a pleasure to serve

:26:09. > :26:13.under is your chairmanship today. I beg to move that this house has

:26:14. > :26:18.considered grandparents' rights of access to children. The issue of

:26:19. > :26:22.grandparents being able to access their grandchildren is one that

:26:23. > :26:27.affects a number of families right across the UK. I have received a

:26:28. > :26:32.significant amount of correspondence from my own constituents, who write

:26:33. > :26:36.to me after family breakdowns and drinking circumstances, seeking

:26:37. > :26:40.guidance on how to reach out to their grandchildren or have access.

:26:41. > :26:46.I adored all of my grandparents from both my mum and dad's families and

:26:47. > :26:50.have fond memories of them from when I was growing up. But it is a sad

:26:51. > :26:55.reflection that we have not managed to reflect in legislation is hugely

:26:56. > :27:00.important role grandparents play in our society. My own dad adores his

:27:01. > :27:04.grandchildren and they adore him back, so whenever I'm contacted by

:27:05. > :27:08.constituents, and actually refer to my own family and simply cannot

:27:09. > :27:13.imagine how hard this must be for everyone involved not to have

:27:14. > :27:17.contact. This is never a straightforward issue to resolve.

:27:18. > :27:23.The distance between grandparents and grandchildren can come about

:27:24. > :27:29.through a number of ways, marital breakdown, bereavement and other

:27:30. > :27:33.difficulties. It can be an incredibly distressing time for all

:27:34. > :27:36.of those involved. I know this issue has been discussed previously in the

:27:37. > :27:42.house, through the introduction of private members bills, debates, and

:27:43. > :27:50.the conversations I have had with colleagues from across the house. I

:27:51. > :27:57.wish to congratulate him for raising this important issue in the house

:27:58. > :28:00.today. He has received, as I have received, many communications which

:28:01. > :28:04.should be emotional turmoil grandparents feel when they had

:28:05. > :28:11.estranged from their grandchildren. Does he agree with me that it is

:28:12. > :28:12.always an error when he situations, like divorce is, grandparents can be

:28:13. > :28:22.used as weapons in the divorce is? I agree it can be very distressing

:28:23. > :28:28.and it is wrong for children to be used as weapons by anybody in any

:28:29. > :28:31.situation but it is distressing for everyone involved and often the

:28:32. > :28:35.constituents that had come to see me, I only see their side of the

:28:36. > :28:38.versions of events and not the children involved and I can tell

:28:39. > :28:42.from my own family that I would be very distressing to not see their

:28:43. > :28:46.grandparents. But it is an issue that does not go away or have a

:28:47. > :28:50.simple solution, as much as I wish there were one. It is important to

:28:51. > :28:56.remember the rights of grandchildren matter as much as the grandparents.

:28:57. > :28:59.Children should be given the opportunity to visit grandparents if

:29:00. > :29:07.they want to. I would like to use this opportunity to praise charities

:29:08. > :29:12.and organisations to help grandparents who have become

:29:13. > :29:20.estranged from grandchildren often through no fault of their own. One

:29:21. > :29:26.such charity operates in my constituency and helps grandparents

:29:27. > :29:33.try to reconnect with their grandchildren. I have attended

:29:34. > :29:37.monthly meeting and listened to some distressing stories of how

:29:38. > :29:41.grandparents ended up losing contact with their grandchildren, sometimes

:29:42. > :29:44.because arguments have gone too far, sometimes due to families separating

:29:45. > :29:50.and sometimes people never really understand the reasons why. Some in

:29:51. > :29:55.the sector wrote to me to suggest ways in which the situation could be

:29:56. > :30:00.changed with a few minor amendments in the wording of the children's

:30:01. > :30:05.act, adding a reference to the child's extended family as well as

:30:06. > :30:07.the involvement of parents, and it could ensure grandparents have

:30:08. > :30:11.similar rights to their grandchildren as well as parents to

:30:12. > :30:14.help secure the child's welfare and ensure grandparents are not

:30:15. > :30:20.negatively impacted by any change to a child's family situation. I can

:30:21. > :30:24.also see situations where this could lead to conflicting issues. The

:30:25. > :30:29.primary responsibility for bringing up children in most families is with

:30:30. > :30:31.parents and I would not like to see situations where parental

:30:32. > :30:37.responsibility could be confused by giving additional rights to

:30:38. > :30:44.grandparents. Or to be used as a weapon in any disagreement. He will

:30:45. > :30:53.recall that on January 31 of this year my constituent Lorraine Bushell

:30:54. > :30:58.and grandparents support group had a day in Parliament and an issue that

:30:59. > :31:02.they raised was not that grandparents have a specific rights

:31:03. > :31:05.to access their grandchildren but the right of the child, as in

:31:06. > :31:14.France, to have contact with extended family. I do recall the day

:31:15. > :31:22.that was held here in fact I think it was held not to far from here.

:31:23. > :31:26.Lots of members were there to lend their support to the campaign. Also

:31:27. > :31:36.to receive some advice and best practice offered on the day. He will

:31:37. > :31:40.not be surprised, only dismayed, to know that at my last surgery I saw

:31:41. > :31:46.grandparents are suffering like this as well and there please was could

:31:47. > :31:49.this be a change in thinking and culture around this because they

:31:50. > :31:52.were told their only recourse was through the courts and didn't want

:31:53. > :32:01.to put their grandchildren through that or further increase tensions. I

:32:02. > :32:12.am grateful for her intervention and I have had similar constituents who

:32:13. > :32:15.related stories to me. I am also grateful for the previous

:32:16. > :32:20.intervention speaking about the law in France and I think that is

:32:21. > :32:26.something that should be considered. I understand that the law in England

:32:27. > :32:35.and Wales gives family court powers to make decision about children and

:32:36. > :32:38.with whom they can spend time. Grandparents must seek permission of

:32:39. > :32:43.the court but it is likely to be allowed if teams in the child's best

:32:44. > :32:47.interest. It could be reconsidered to give grandparents and automatic

:32:48. > :32:51.presumption to the family court. Losing access can be more difficult

:32:52. > :32:57.without having access to information about the children are knowing their

:32:58. > :33:00.whereabouts. At my surgery a lady came to see me and told me she

:33:01. > :33:03.didn't know where her grandchildren are living or what they looked like

:33:04. > :33:10.anymore and have no access to information about them. She would

:33:11. > :33:14.love to have had contact with them but it was also worrying her not to

:33:15. > :33:20.have any information or knowing if they were safe. I was able to write

:33:21. > :33:26.Northamptonshire and ask that if any Northamptonshire and ask that if any

:33:27. > :33:31.information was passed back. They replied to Save the Children were

:33:32. > :33:34.safe. Sometimes there are obvious safeguarding reasons why information

:33:35. > :33:39.cannot be shared but I do think this could also be looked at again to see

:33:40. > :33:40.how the law protect safeguarding issues while also allowing

:33:41. > :33:47.grandparents to basic information about grandchildren just to feel

:33:48. > :33:51.reassured they are safe and well. I hope that after the election, the

:33:52. > :33:55.issue of grandparents' access to children can be taken forward by

:33:56. > :33:58.working together to major the voice of grandparents is taken into

:33:59. > :34:03.account when working with families. I draw my comments to an end but

:34:04. > :34:15.look forward to hearing contributions from other colleagues

:34:16. > :34:28.and from the Minister. Jim Shannon. Can I congratulate him for doing it

:34:29. > :34:29.so well? It is an issue in the House today of some importance to us who

:34:30. > :34:51.are here. It is an issue that comes up through

:34:52. > :34:56.my advice centre back home and I declare an interest because I am of

:34:57. > :35:01.that age, as a doting grandfather, and I look round the chamber and I

:35:02. > :35:04.am much if everyone would be but I think you missed site are one of

:35:05. > :35:13.those people who have achieved that goal. When I help my eldest son in

:35:14. > :35:18.my arms years ago I thought nothing could top the pride. I was wrong.

:35:19. > :35:25.There was a little girl who made it into this world and a special place

:35:26. > :35:30.in my heart, eight years old and when I again thought there was no

:35:31. > :35:35.more room, little media came along. Just three years old. There is

:35:36. > :35:41.nothing more enjoyable than time with your grandchildren. Also the

:35:42. > :35:46.fact that you can hand them back whenever they get a bit stroppy!

:35:47. > :35:53.That is one of the great advantages of getting to be a grandparent. We

:35:54. > :35:57.are here today to debate this issue because we want to try and give

:35:58. > :36:04.access to grandparents. I am lucky because I have access. I am very

:36:05. > :36:14.fortunate. Also fortunate that most of my family and friends are the

:36:15. > :36:19.same. I am convinced he is a magnificent grandfather in many

:36:20. > :36:25.respects. Almost an archetypal grandparent. It is also a two-way

:36:26. > :36:34.thing because I can remember my grand mother virtually brought me

:36:35. > :36:38.up. The relationship and want to be formed as carried me through my

:36:39. > :36:44.entire life and I can't imagine anything worse than not having

:36:45. > :36:49.access. I would ask if he agrees with the that the right of children

:36:50. > :36:56.to access the grandparents is so important? Totally agree. I don't

:36:57. > :37:03.think there is anyone in this hole that doesn't have the same opinion.

:37:04. > :37:07.There was something special about a grandparent and that relationship.

:37:08. > :37:20.My mother, who is still living, she will soon be 86, she dotes as a

:37:21. > :37:25.great grandparent. There is very early bond between my grandchildren

:37:26. > :37:34.and their great-grandmother as well. There is something very nice, a warm

:37:35. > :37:38.feeling about those things. Unfortunately I know there are many

:37:39. > :37:41.people who long to see their grandchild and are denied this

:37:42. > :37:45.opportunity and this is the reason for the debate. I hope to go on

:37:46. > :37:51.holiday in summer problem for the first time with my wife and

:37:52. > :37:58.grandchildren and the memories will be the stuff of dreams. The

:37:59. > :38:04.photographs will be special. I can spend quality time with no pressure.

:38:05. > :38:16.If you lead your mobile phone at home, your excommunicate. This is

:38:17. > :38:21.not something to for granted but when I see so many grandparents

:38:22. > :38:27.chucked out of their grandchildren's lives, whether it is marital

:38:28. > :38:31.break-ups, the spin off from a relationship that breaks down,

:38:32. > :38:37.whether people move away or whether the children and grandchildren in

:38:38. > :38:42.this case are merely used as a tool against the parents. But the

:38:43. > :38:50.guidance on access for grandparents says that should initially be sort

:38:51. > :38:55.through the parents or guardians. However if this cannot be agreed the

:38:56. > :39:01.grandparent can go to court. That is all very well but the fact is that

:39:02. > :39:05.is not as simple as that. That is not easy to do when parents are

:39:06. > :39:09.estranged. Children are often used as a very painful weapon. As a

:39:10. > :39:17.grandparent I can only imagine being cut off out of my granddaughter's

:39:18. > :39:21.life. I would do everything to visit but if this was something that

:39:22. > :39:25.couldn't be achieved, to have to go to court for access, which is

:39:26. > :39:30.expensive and soul destroying, when we understand grandparents' rates

:39:31. > :39:34.are so restricted. There was a salient point in the final few words

:39:35. > :39:40.about the pain that going to court causes not only to the grandparents

:39:41. > :39:43.but to the parents and the children. The children can't quite understand

:39:44. > :39:46.what is going on and what all the arguments and fights are about but

:39:47. > :39:56.they know there is something wrong. They are the piggy in the middle,

:39:57. > :39:59.being pulled by all sides. All sides perhaps genuinely love their

:40:00. > :40:07.children or grandchildren but that access is denied. I see the Minister

:40:08. > :40:11.in his place, it is good to see him here and we look forward to his

:40:12. > :40:15.response. More must be done to support access rights and if that

:40:16. > :40:27.means the enactment of legislation, which I believe has been suggested,

:40:28. > :40:32.which in -- which enshrines clear rights for grandparents, I think

:40:33. > :40:35.this has to happen. One in for a working families relies on

:40:36. > :40:40.grandparents for child care, which saves the Government money on tax

:40:41. > :40:44.credits and childcare voucher schemes and it also follows that

:40:45. > :40:48.grandparents should receive the benefit of government notice. That

:40:49. > :40:57.is what we are trying to achieve, that their rights are protected. If

:40:58. > :40:59.today's debate moves that process on and enables legislative change to

:41:00. > :41:05.come in the next term of Parliament, I will speak strongly in support of

:41:06. > :41:13.it, if the Minister is able to respond in a suitable way. Things

:41:14. > :41:18.like Nanny tax credits are great but more support is needed for those who

:41:19. > :41:22.are not able to see their grandchildren. I look to the

:41:23. > :41:27.Minister to ensure that the new government after June nine takes

:41:28. > :41:33.this on board and takes steps to clarify the rights of grandparents

:41:34. > :41:37.throughout the UK and on the half of those grandparents who have no

:41:38. > :41:49.access to grandchildren, I think that would be a compassionate step

:41:50. > :41:51.in the right direction. It is a pleasure to serve under your

:41:52. > :41:54.chairmanship. I would like to thank the honourable member for

:41:55. > :42:00.Northampton South and congratulate him for being such an important

:42:01. > :42:05.issue before Parliament. He succeeded in setting up various

:42:06. > :42:12.considerations associated with this sensitive issue. Grandparents can

:42:13. > :42:15.enrich the lives of children and provide support for parents trying

:42:16. > :42:20.to balance work and home life. They can be the one people who get told

:42:21. > :42:29.off by their own parents. I remember my grandparents, my mother's mother

:42:30. > :42:32.telling her off, and often they are the ones to stick up for you and

:42:33. > :42:39.give you little treats and things. I think the importance of grandparents

:42:40. > :42:45.in the life of children cannot be stated often enough. Many have been

:42:46. > :42:50.very lucky to enjoy a close and loving relation with their

:42:51. > :42:58.grandparents. This is one of the best experience you can have. The

:42:59. > :43:05.member who is now gone from his seat said so. Sometimes relationships

:43:06. > :43:08.break down. Frequently the pain accompanies a breakdown of families.

:43:09. > :43:14.At its most extreme, children are taken into care. Where there is a

:43:15. > :43:21.responsible grandparent who can step in, it is surely to be welcomed.

:43:22. > :43:29.A more frequent occurrences where a grandparent becoming detached from

:43:30. > :43:38.the grandchildren when the parents separate. When it happens, off the

:43:39. > :43:43.grandparents have been sent and feel excluded. It is quite right they

:43:44. > :43:46.should have some form of redress to apply for access. The current means

:43:47. > :43:54.of deciding where a child lives and with whom they have contact called

:43:55. > :44:00.Child Arrangement Orders, which was introduced in 2014, to replace the

:44:01. > :44:03.previous order. The Child Arrangement Orders can determine

:44:04. > :44:08.where a child lives, who are child spends time with, and that person is

:44:09. > :44:14.named in the order, as well as details such as who they can make

:44:15. > :44:19.phone calls too, who they can live with, what activities they can do

:44:20. > :44:23.with the specific person. Under the present system, grandparents have to

:44:24. > :44:28.seek leave to court to apply for a Child Arrangement Order And Only If

:44:29. > :44:37.They Have lived with the child for years. Generally this has to be

:44:38. > :44:40.done". This can cause a lot of problems, because firstly, by having

:44:41. > :44:45.the stipulation of minimum three years of staying with the child, can