0:00:32 > 0:00:35The four I called Jim Fitzpatrick to move the motion, I would like to
0:00:35 > 0:00:45draw your attention to the fact that the proceedings today
0:00:45 > 0:00:46are being made
0:00:46 > 0:00:49accessible for people who are deaf or have problems with hearing,
0:00:49 > 0:00:55and the interpreters are using British Sign Language.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57If Members bear that in mind while making contributions,
0:00:57 > 0:01:02that will be helpful for everyone.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05OK, I called Jim Fitzpatrick to move the motion.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07I beg to move, that this House has considered
0:01:07 > 0:01:12deafness and hearing loss.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr McCabe.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17I am even more pleased to see that our debate
0:01:17 > 0:01:23is being interpreted into sign language, which I believe
0:01:23 > 0:01:25is a parliamentary first, so we may be making history,
0:01:25 > 0:01:29which is great for all of us who are here to participate.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee
0:01:33 > 0:01:36for the opportunity to introduce the debate, and am very pleased that
0:01:36 > 0:01:41so many colleagues have been able to join us to contribute
0:01:41 > 0:01:43to this important discussion.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46It is good to see the Minister in his place, even though
0:01:46 > 0:01:48the subject is not exactly in his brief, and I look forward
0:01:48 > 0:01:51to hearing the winding-up speeches from him and from
0:01:51 > 0:01:54the Opposition spokespersons.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57I place on the record my thanks to the UK Council on Deafness,
0:01:57 > 0:02:00Action on Hearing Loss, the National Deaf Children's
0:02:00 > 0:02:10Society, Deaf Plus, the Adult Cochlear Implant Action Group
0:02:15 > 0:02:17and Brian Lamb, DeaflympicsGB, Access Bedford, the three network
0:02:17 > 0:02:19and the House of Commons Library for their assistance
0:02:19 > 0:02:21in preparing for the debate.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23That is a long list, but given that 11 million people
0:02:23 > 0:02:25across the UK are living with hearing loss, it
0:02:25 > 0:02:27could have been much longer.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29The UK Council on Deafness, for example, represents 43 deafness
0:02:29 > 0:02:31or hearing loss organisations and has produced
0:02:31 > 0:02:36a collective briefing.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39I should also record that I wear two hearing aids of my own and am
0:02:39 > 0:02:41chair of the all-party group on deafness.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46There are too many issues for me to raise personally and it would be
0:02:46 > 0:02:52unfair not to share the time available as equitably
0:02:52 > 0:02:59as possible among those here.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04So the bulk of my speech,
0:03:04 > 0:03:07at 13 and a half minutes, will focus on three key issues:
0:03:07 > 0:03:09Access to Work, legal recognition of British Sign Language
0:03:09 > 0:03:11and the implementation of the national action
0:03:11 > 0:03:12plan on hearing loss.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15First, however, I would like to put down a brief marker on several other
0:03:15 > 0:03:18issues that I do not have time to raise in detail.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20I secured an Adjournment debate on cochlear implants
0:03:20 > 0:03:23in March, in which the then Minister David Mowat advised me
0:03:23 > 0:03:25that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence
0:03:25 > 0:03:27would consult on new proposals by the ?end of the summer.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29We are still awaiting that consultation, so any
0:03:29 > 0:03:31information from the Minister would be very welcome.
0:03:31 > 0:03:38Requests to improve paediatric audiology services
0:03:38 > 0:03:41across the country by accrediting them through the IQIPS - improving
0:03:41 > 0:03:44quality in physiological services -programme have been made
0:03:44 > 0:03:45for some time.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48I would welcome an update on any progress on voluntary accreditation
0:03:48 > 0:03:50or, if that has proved unsatisfactory, on whether
0:03:50 > 0:03:54the Government have given more thought to making it compulsory.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57On Deaflympics, any information from the Minister about discussions
0:03:57 > 0:03:59between his Department and the Department for Digital,
0:03:59 > 0:04:01Culture, Media and Sport on support for our deaf athletes
0:04:01 > 0:04:04would be very welcome.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07On early years intervention, the first three and a half years
0:04:07 > 0:04:11are critical for the development of listening and spoken language.
0:04:11 > 0:04:16I would be grateful for any update from the Minister on Government
0:04:16 > 0:04:19thinking about ensuring that auditory-verbal is put
0:04:19 > 0:04:22on the patient pathway as a follow-up to the newborn
0:04:22 > 0:04:25hearing screening.
0:04:25 > 0:04:31Finally, I have some positive news about telecommunication services:
0:04:31 > 0:04:34The briefing from Three shared how it provides services for its deaf
0:04:34 > 0:04:35or hard-of-hearing customers.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37I also have some good news from Deaf Plus,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39whose BSL advice line was shortlisted this
0:04:39 > 0:04:42week for a national Helplines Partnership award.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44Well done!
0:04:44 > 0:04:46Let me return to my three key issues, beginning
0:04:46 > 0:04:56with Access to Work.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58One person in six in the UK or approximately
0:04:58 > 0:04:5911 million people is
0:04:59 > 0:05:02living with some form of hearing loss, and estimates show that nearly
0:05:02 > 0:05:0490,000 use British Sign Language as their first language.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07The Government's Access to Work scheme provides grants to disabled
0:05:07 > 0:05:10people to enable them to have equal participation in the workforce.
0:05:10 > 0:05:19It has revolutionised the career opportunities of deaf people,
0:05:19 > 0:05:22shattering the glass ceiling that had limited them to manual jobs.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25It has been largely due to Access to Work that deaf people have
0:05:25 > 0:05:28progressed as far as their talent allows - there are now deaf
0:05:28 > 0:05:32chief executive officers, deaf Ministry of Justice
0:05:32 > 0:05:35intermediaries and deaf theatre directors, among other
0:05:35 > 0:05:38senior professionals.
0:05:38 > 0:05:48In March 2015, however, the then Minister for
0:05:49 > 0:05:51Disabled People
0:05:51 > 0:05:52would impose a cap.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55The cap means that the scheme no longer properly supports those deaf
0:05:55 > 0:05:57and disabled people for whom support costs are more expensive.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59For deaf people who are self-employed or entrepreneurs,
0:05:59 > 0:06:02there is no employer to make up the difference between
0:06:02 > 0:06:03the award and the need.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06In a recent written answer, the Department for Work and Pensions
0:06:06 > 0:06:09indicated that it was unable to state the number of people still
0:06:09 > 0:06:12in receipt of awards above the cap.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14The UK Council on Deafness conducted its own survey
0:06:14 > 0:06:17to establish the impact of the cap on deaf people.
0:06:17 > 0:06:22It received 87 responses, including 60 from those who will be
0:06:22 > 0:06:30capped in April 2018
0:06:30 > 0:06:31which given that fewer than 200
0:06:31 > 0:06:37people were identified in the equality assessment
0:06:37 > 0:06:42as potentially in that situation.
0:06:42 > 0:06:43It is a high response rate.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45Deaf people tell us that they are already avoiding
0:06:45 > 0:06:47applying for work in professional, managerial and senior roles
0:06:48 > 0:06:49that will be capped.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51The cap on Access to Work awards risks imposing a glass ceiling
0:06:51 > 0:06:53for deaf and disabled people in their work.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56Some 46% said that they would not apply for promotions,
0:06:56 > 0:06:5820% said they had not applied ?because they were worried,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01and 44% said that they would stay with their current employer
0:07:01 > 0:07:03for as long as possible because they were worried
0:07:03 > 0:07:13about a new employer.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15So, will the Government look again at the evidence opposing the cap
0:07:16 > 0:07:18on Access to Work awards?
0:07:18 > 0:07:21Do the Government accept that the cap on Access to Work
0:07:21 > 0:07:22grants is set too low?
0:07:22 > 0:07:25The Secretary of State amended it from £42,100 to £43,000
0:07:25 > 0:07:35in his statement today, but that is still too low.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39If the Minister will not remove the cap, will they consider raising
0:07:39 > 0:07:42it to a level that provides deaf people with more of
0:07:42 > 0:07:49the support they need?
0:07:49 > 0:07:51Finally, has the Government considered that it might
0:07:51 > 0:07:52inadvertently have created legitimate financial grounds
0:07:52 > 0:07:56on which employers can discriminate against job applicants who use BSL?
0:07:56 > 0:07:59I recognise that those are questions mainly for the DWP,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02but if the Minister cannot respond to them today, I would be grateful
0:08:02 > 0:08:06if he ensured they were passed on to the appropriate quarter.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09In answer to my question in the Chamber about an hour ago,
0:08:09 > 0:08:12the Secretary of State said that the Government were still
0:08:12 > 0:08:13looking at evidence.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16I hope that means that the door is still open, because increasing
0:08:16 > 0:08:19the threshold by £1,000 clearly does not cut it.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22In general employment terms, there are hurdles to getting
0:08:22 > 0:08:24into work for people with hearing loss anyway.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28In a YouGov survey commissioned by Action on Hearing Loss,
0:08:28 > 0:08:3335% of business leaders stated that they did not feel confident
0:08:33 > 0:08:36about their business employing a person with hearing loss,
0:08:36 > 0:08:38while 57% agreed that there is a lack of available support
0:08:38 > 0:08:40or advice for employers about employing people
0:08:40 > 0:08:44with hearing loss.
0:08:44 > 0:08:50Access to Work is still the DWP's best-kept secret.
0:08:50 > 0:08:5263% of the business leaders polled had
0:08:52 > 0:08:54never heard of it.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Let me move on to British Sign Language.
0:08:57 > 0:09:02BSL is the first or preferred language of more than 80,000
0:09:02 > 0:09:04deaf people in the UK, and more than 150,000
0:09:05 > 0:09:08people use it at home.
0:09:08 > 0:09:14In 1987, the British Deaf Association launched a call
0:09:14 > 0:09:17for the legal recognition of BSL, and in 2003, following extensive
0:09:17 > 0:09:19lobbying, BSL was officially recognised as a language
0:09:19 > 0:09:24in its own right by the DWP.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27In 2009, the UK Government ratified the United Nations Convention
0:09:27 > 0:09:34on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which states that
0:09:34 > 0:09:37Governments must uphold rights by
0:09:37 > 0:09:40Accepting and facilitating
0:09:40 > 0:09:45the use of sign languages in official interactions
0:09:45 > 0:09:50and by Recognizing and promoting the use of sign languages.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52Despite formal recognition by the UK Government that BSL
0:09:52 > 0:09:56is a language in its own right, there has been no further progress
0:09:56 > 0:09:59towards establishing a legal status for BSL.
0:09:59 > 0:10:04In the devolved Administrations, the situation is different.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06In 2012, a consultation for a British Sign Language Act
0:10:06 > 0:10:08in Scotland was initiated, culminating in the passing of
0:10:08 > 0:10:10the British Sign Language Act 2015.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12In 2017, the Scottish Government published their first
0:10:12 > 0:10:16BSL national plan.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18In 2016, a sign language framework consultation was launched
0:10:18 > 0:10:21in Northern Ireland.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Despite those developments, however, there is still no pathway in place
0:10:24 > 0:10:29for legal recognition of BSL across the UK.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32With such legal recognition of BSL would come the rights of deaf
0:10:32 > 0:10:35people, and the benefits for deaf people and for wider society
0:10:35 > 0:10:38would be far-reaching.? On education, deaf children are 42%
0:10:38 > 0:10:42less likely to achieve five or more GCSEs at grade C or above
0:10:42 > 0:10:45than their hearing peers, but there is no reason a deaf child
0:10:45 > 0:10:47should do any worse than a hearing child.
0:10:47 > 0:10:56On health, 70% of deaf people who have not been to a GP recently
0:10:56 > 0:10:59wanted to go but did not, mainly because there was no
0:10:59 > 0:11:03interpreter available.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Deaf people who have been told that they might have high blood
0:11:06 > 0:11:09pressure are three times more likely than everyone else not
0:11:09 > 0:11:14to have it under control.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Deaf people are almost twice as likely as others to experience
0:11:16 > 0:11:18mental health issues, which can be exacerbated
0:11:18 > 0:11:22by social exclusion.
0:11:22 > 0:11:30A health economics study showed that eliminating poor diagnosis
0:11:30 > 0:11:31could save the NHS £30 million annually.
0:11:32 > 0:11:33And it is worth noting that
0:11:33 > 0:11:3790% of deaf children are born into hearing families.
0:11:37 > 0:11:42The call to Government is that the deaf community want them
0:11:42 > 0:11:46to acknowledge the benefits of legal recognition of BSL and commit
0:11:46 > 0:11:49to establishing a UK-wide sign language framework consultation
0:11:49 > 0:11:52for a UK-wide sign language Act.
0:11:52 > 0:11:57The British Deaf Association is asking for this consultation
0:11:57 > 0:11:59process to be led by an appropriate Department whose remit
0:11:59 > 0:12:02covers language.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05However, that is another major obstacle and it prompts a question
0:12:05 > 0:12:08for the Minister: which Department and which Minister lead on BSL?
0:12:08 > 0:12:12I have been writing for some time to try to find out.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15I even tabled a parliamentary question to the Cabinet Office
0:12:15 > 0:12:18and the answer that question elicited was that
0:12:18 > 0:12:22"All Government departments have a responsibility to create
0:12:22 > 0:12:25inclusive communications.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28This does not mean promoting BSL as an activity in itself but it does
0:12:28 > 0:12:30mean identifying and meeting the communication needs
0:12:30 > 0:12:33of the audiences we are targeting".
0:12:33 > 0:12:36I am sorry, Minister, but that answer is nowhere
0:12:36 > 0:12:44near clear enough and I think it demonstrates why BSL is stranded.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47No Department is responsible for it, no Minister is responsible for it,
0:12:47 > 0:12:49there is no champion in Government who is responsible for it,
0:12:49 > 0:12:52there is no advocacy for it, and there is no progress on it.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55Finally on BSL, there is the case for a British Sign Language GCSE.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Although BSL is a recognised language within the UK,
0:12:58 > 0:13:03a GCSE that can be taught in schools is not available.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06A GCSE on BSL has already been piloted and is largely ready to go,
0:13:06 > 0:13:08but the Department for Education is declining to give
0:13:08 > 0:13:11it the go-ahead.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14There is a principle of fairness and justice here.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17BSL is an official language in the UK that is used by tens
0:13:17 > 0:13:20of thousands of people.
0:13:20 > 0:13:25Not allowing BSL to be taught as a GCSE implies that it has
0:13:25 > 0:13:29a lower status and importance than other subjects,
0:13:29 > 0:13:31and that could even be seen as discriminatory
0:13:31 > 0:13:32against deaf people.
0:13:32 > 0:13:38Also, we do not have enough deaf interpreters.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42Judging by the briefings that we have all received,
0:13:42 > 0:13:45I think that there are 800 to 900 registered deaf interpreters,
0:13:45 > 0:13:47which is clearly inadequate to deal with more than 100,000 people.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50The last of the three issues that I will raise today
0:13:50 > 0:13:53is the implementation of the action plan on hearing loss.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56When the Department of Health and NHS England published
0:13:56 > 0:14:01that plan in March 2015, it was widely welcomed.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05This cross-Government plan not only recognised hearing loss as a major
0:14:05 > 0:14:07public health issue, but highlighted the major
0:14:07 > 0:14:09impacts of hearing loss.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12It also committed the Government to improving services for everyone
0:14:12 > 0:14:15living with hearing loss.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17In addition, it set out the need to reduce variation
0:14:17 > 0:14:19in the provision of services, through the development
0:14:19 > 0:14:23of guidelines by NICE on adult-onset hearing loss.?
0:14:23 > 0:14:26The action plan set out five key objectives in the following areas:
0:14:26 > 0:14:29earlier diagnosis; good prevention; integrated services; increased
0:14:29 > 0:14:35independence and ageing; and good learning outcomes.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37There was wide support for the plan.
0:14:37 > 0:14:42As part of the implementation, NHS England published its new national
0:14:42 > 0:14:46commissioning framework for hearing loss services in July 2016.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49It is essential that information about that framework is properly
0:14:49 > 0:14:51disseminated by NHS England and that the framework
0:14:51 > 0:14:55is fully adopted by clinical commissioning groups.
0:14:55 > 0:15:05To help with that dissemination, in September, NHS England published
0:15:07 > 0:15:09its What Works Guides - Action Plan on Hearing
0:15:09 > 0:15:10Loss, which provides
0:15:10 > 0:15:12advice to commissioners and providers on supporting people
0:15:12 > 0:15:14with hearing loss in a variety of different settings.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17NHS England is also set to publish guidance imminently,
0:15:17 > 0:15:19setting out the need for health and wellbeing boards to consider
0:15:19 > 0:15:21people with hearing loss when they are commissioning
0:15:21 > 0:15:23services, as well as considering its data tool.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26In this case, the requests made of Government would be fairly
0:15:26 > 0:15:28straightforward to meet, because the frameworks are in place.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30The UK Council on Deafness is asking the Government
0:15:30 > 0:15:32to work with NHS England, commissioners and professional
0:15:32 > 0:15:37bodies for medical professionals to raise the importance of early
0:15:37 > 0:15:42diagnosis of hearing loss; produce an analysis of the case
0:15:42 > 0:15:46for hearing screening, potentially adding it to the NHS
0:15:46 > 0:15:51health check that is provided to people in England aged between 40
0:15:51 > 0:15:54and 70; and raise the importance of promoting the commissioning
0:15:54 > 0:15:57framework through NHS England.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00The framework provides a clear alternative to the decommissioning
0:16:00 > 0:16:03of hearing aids, and CCGs should be aware of it when designing
0:16:03 > 0:16:09and commissioning local services.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14It is fair to say that on the three major issues I have raised
0:16:14 > 0:16:16today the Government have a mixed report card.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19On Access to Work, the Government started very positively,
0:16:19 > 0:16:22then faltered and now could be going backwards.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27We need the response of the Secretary of State for Work
0:16:27 > 0:16:30and Pensions to my question in the main Chamber today
0:16:30 > 0:16:33on the need to continue to look at the evidence to make serious
0:16:33 > 0:16:36progress, because the evidence, as I hope I have laid out,
0:16:36 > 0:16:37is very much there.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39On BSL, the Government never really got started.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41That is not just the Minister's Government;
0:16:41 > 0:16:44that is "the British Government", a phrase that covers both
0:16:44 > 0:16:47sides of the Chamber.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50We are still stalled on BSL and there is no sign of an ignition
0:16:50 > 0:16:53switch to start us moving again.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55We need a champion of BSL in Government.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58On the action plan, the Government started well
0:16:58 > 0:16:59and maintained progress, but they need to move
0:16:59 > 0:17:02through the gears now to ensure that that progress continues and secures
0:17:02 > 0:17:04the promised outcomes.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08We only need more of the same, because the start in this area
0:17:08 > 0:17:11was welcomed by the whole deaf and hearing loss community.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15Finally, this is an important debate and I am grateful that so many
0:17:15 > 0:17:17colleagues have managed to be here to participate.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I am also grateful for the opportunity to open
0:17:20 > 0:17:22the debate and I look forward to the contributions
0:17:22 > 0:17:32that will follow.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe.?
0:17:40 > 0:17:43I start by congratulating the honourable
0:17:43 > 0:17:48Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim on securing this debate
0:17:48 > 0:17:50and on setting out his case with his customary
0:17:50 > 0:17:56courtesy and passion.
0:17:56 > 0:18:01He has been a champion of these issues for many years,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04so I pay him heartfelt tribute for that.
0:18:04 > 0:18:14As the honourable
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Gentleman said, this is the first debate in the House to be
0:18:19 > 0:18:29transmitted via British Sign Language.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Christopher Jones, who wanted to attend, but decided not to travel
0:18:35 > 0:18:38Unfortunately, news of that came too late for one of my constituents,
0:18:38 > 0:18:40Christopher Jones, who wanted to attend, but decided not to travel
0:18:40 > 0:18:43down from Milton Keynes because he did not think that this
0:18:43 > 0:18:44facility would be available.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47Mr McCabe, perhaps you could report back to the Speaker and the Panel
0:18:47 > 0:18:49of Chairs that we should consider providing this interpretation not
0:18:49 > 0:18:52only during debates on this subject, but during general debates more
0:18:52 > 0:19:02widely, so that we are as accessible as possible to all our constituents.
0:19:08 > 0:19:14I will focus on the introduction of a nationwide telecommunication
0:19:14 > 0:19:16relay service, something that Mr Jones came to see me
0:19:16 > 0:19:22about a few weeks ago.
0:19:22 > 0:19:31In most advanced economies, a nationwide TRS provides
0:19:31 > 0:19:35functionally equivalent telephone transmission services to deaf
0:19:35 > 0:19:38and hard-of-hearing individuals.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41A TRS is a telephone transmission service that allows an individual
0:19:41 > 0:19:45who is deaf or hard of hearing to have the same telephone
0:19:45 > 0:19:52availability as someone who is of good hearing.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55As telephone services and technologies evolve,
0:19:55 > 0:20:00so does the scope and achievement of functional equivalence.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02At one time, typed text communication was considered
0:20:02 > 0:20:06the functional equivalent of voice communication, but in the 21st
0:20:06 > 0:20:10century, captioning, video and other technologies have
0:20:10 > 0:20:20changed what equivalency means.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24The gaps between what is available to hearing individuals and those
0:20:24 > 0:20:30with hearing deficiency are growing.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Sadly, the UK, which was the first to introduce such systems,
0:20:33 > 0:20:36now lags well behind other countries such as the USA, Australia,
0:20:36 > 0:20:39Canada and New Zealand.
0:20:39 > 0:20:40The issue of functionally equivalent telephone
0:20:40 > 0:20:42services must be addressed.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46It includes, but is not limited to: the unrestricted availability
0:20:46 > 0:20:49of relay services 24 hours a day, seven days a week, emergency
0:20:49 > 0:20:54preparedness and response, to ensure the delivery of relay
0:20:54 > 0:20:56services in the event of disruptions to telecommunications services,
0:20:56 > 0:21:04international capacity, and access to the full array of existing
0:21:04 > 0:21:10telephone services offered by telecommunications companies.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Competition, innovation and choice are important,
0:21:13 > 0:21:17so that users can access a wide range of services.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22What works for some people in some circumstances might be different
0:21:22 > 0:21:24from what others need.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27There are different facilities available, and it is important that
0:21:27 > 0:21:33each user can choose the system that works best for them at any one time.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35That might mean one individual having different things
0:21:35 > 0:21:37at different times.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40My constituent said that he would use one means
0:21:40 > 0:21:42to communicate with his family, and a different one
0:21:42 > 0:21:47for business conversations.
0:21:47 > 0:21:53Many other issues need to be considered.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57While these may seem like lofty goals, they are being delivered
0:21:57 > 0:22:00in the countries I mentioned.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04For example, Australia provides the following relay services:
0:22:04 > 0:22:07textphone to voice and voice to textphone, textphone voice
0:22:07 > 0:22:10carry-over, textphone hearing carry-over, speech to speech, video
0:22:10 > 0:22:16relay services, internet relay, mobile text relay, mobile SMS relay,
0:22:16 > 0:22:19captioned telephone for phone and web, and captioned
0:22:19 > 0:22:22telephone to Braille display.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26In Australia, the system has operated as a national service
0:22:26 > 0:22:31since 1995 and is available to every Australian at no additional cost,
0:22:31 > 0:22:3824 hours a day, seven days a week.? A number of studies
0:22:38 > 0:22:43since the system's introduction have looked at its impact.
0:22:43 > 0:22:50We might think some of the findings are obvious,
0:22:50 > 0:22:54but it is important to mention them.
0:22:54 > 0:23:00Access to enhanced relay services is positively associated
0:23:00 > 0:23:06with reductions in feelings of frustration with telephone use.
0:23:06 > 0:23:14It gives individuals a much higher quality of life.
0:23:14 > 0:23:19It not only allows access to work, as the honourable
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Member for Poplar and Limehouse mentioned, but is proven to reduce
0:23:23 > 0:23:29the wider health consequences that can arise from isolation,
0:23:29 > 0:23:35such as mental health issues.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39The cost saving is likely to exceed the cost of introducing the service.
0:23:39 > 0:23:47I think I heard him mention that £30 million annually could be saved
0:23:47 > 0:23:53from the health and social care budget if many of these feelings
0:23:53 > 0:23:59of social exclusion were dealt with.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Ironically, my constituent was involved in designing
0:24:03 > 0:24:07and setting up such a system many years ago.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12It had to close down in 2008 as he could not make it work,
0:24:12 > 0:24:19and part of the problem was bureaucratic muddle and delay.
0:24:19 > 0:24:24The issue is often cross-departmental.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27We have a Minister from the Department of Health here,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29but the matter is as much for the Department for Digital,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for
0:24:31 > 0:24:32Work and Pensions.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35The potential benefits of the system my constituent
0:24:35 > 0:24:38introduced could not be realised because there was buck-passing
0:24:38 > 0:24:43and delays, and the approach was not joined up.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47My call today is for the Minister to take away these points
0:24:47 > 0:24:53and discuss them with his colleagues in DWP and DCMS, and to drive
0:24:53 > 0:24:58forward the introduction of a nationwide service
0:24:58 > 0:25:00in this country.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03It is embarrassing that while we were one of the first
0:25:03 > 0:25:05to introduce such systems, we have fallen back over
0:25:05 > 0:25:07a number of decades.
0:25:07 > 0:25:12Other countries are now way ahead of us.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15I urge the Minister and his colleagues to look at the evidence,
0:25:15 > 0:25:17particularly from Australia, on what can be done
0:25:17 > 0:25:22cost-effectively.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25This is not just about money, it is about quality of life.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29We owe it to all our constituents to give them as much access
0:25:29 > 0:25:33to the world of work and public services as anyone else,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37and my suggestion is a fairly straightforward way to do that.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41I urge the Minister to look at the evidence from other countries
0:25:41 > 0:25:43and discuss it with his colleagues.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55Mr Pat McFadden.
0:25:55 > 0:26:00I want to begin by echoing the tribute paid to my honourable
0:26:00 > 0:26:02Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse for
0:26:02 > 0:26:03securing this debate.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06As we have heard, there are a number of dimensions
0:26:06 > 0:26:12and aspects to deafness, but I want to focus on one issue:
0:26:12 > 0:26:18the criteria for receiving cochlear implants under the NHS.
0:26:18 > 0:26:24My argument today is simple: the criteria should be reviewed
0:26:24 > 0:26:28so that it is easier to get an implant.
0:26:28 > 0:26:32That would transform the lives of those who need this technology,
0:26:32 > 0:26:36and improve the lives of their families and loved ones.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40It would be a prudent investment, because it would obviate the need
0:26:40 > 0:26:45for more expenditure further down the line as a consequence of people
0:26:45 > 0:26:51not receiving the implants they desperately need.
0:26:51 > 0:26:55I will tell the story of my constituent, Lamina Lloyd.
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Until last year, Lamina had a flourishing career as the manager
0:26:59 > 0:27:02of a local citizens advice bureau.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05However, Lamina has Meniere's disease, which has resulted
0:27:05 > 0:27:09in progressive hearing loss-so much so that last year she
0:27:09 > 0:27:12?had to give up work.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15She has two children who themselves have additional needs.
0:27:15 > 0:27:20She can no longer hear her children, who have to act as her ears.
0:27:20 > 0:27:25She describes her family as having gone from being an outdoor family
0:27:25 > 0:27:29to one that rarely leaves the house.
0:27:29 > 0:27:34Lamina is an intelligent, capable person, but hearing loss has
0:27:34 > 0:27:40meant the end of her career, a diminishment in the quality
0:27:40 > 0:27:46of her family life, and increasing isolation.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48To try to alleviate her condition, Lamina wears the most powerful
0:27:48 > 0:27:54hearing aids available, turned up to maximum volume,
0:27:54 > 0:27:58but they make little difference and give her frequent ear infections
0:27:58 > 0:28:04and headaches from their feedback and squealing noises.
0:28:04 > 0:28:13She can no longer hear music or follow conversations,
0:28:13 > 0:28:19yet she has been in a battle that is the only word
0:28:19 > 0:28:20for it for the past
0:28:20 > 0:28:23two years to try to get a cochlear implant.
0:28:23 > 0:28:30She falls just 5 dB short, which is no more than a whisper,
0:28:30 > 0:28:37of the 90 dB hearing loss threshold for consideration for an implant.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41That threshold is one of the strictest in the western world.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45It is estimated that only 5% of those who could benefit
0:28:45 > 0:28:50from the technology get access to it in the UK.
0:28:50 > 0:28:56Lamina describes her condition as being too deaf to hear,
0:28:56 > 0:28:59yet not deaf enough to get the help that could make a huge
0:28:59 > 0:29:01difference to her life.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Her hearing has deteriorated even further in recent months,
0:29:05 > 0:29:08and she has an appointment to be assessed at the Queen Elizabeth
0:29:08 > 0:29:11Hospital in Birmingham in two weeks' time, but she and many others
0:29:11 > 0:29:16in her position have serious reservations about how
0:29:16 > 0:29:25the assessments are made.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27The BKB test uses short sentences in lab conditions.
0:29:27 > 0:29:28It does not replicate normal conversation
0:29:28 > 0:29:32or real-world conditions.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35Lamina and many others feel that that tool is not fit for the purpose
0:29:35 > 0:29:37of properly measuring hearing ability and hearing loss.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39Even if Lamina is approved for an implant, why
0:29:39 > 0:29:44has it taken so long?
0:29:44 > 0:29:49Why do we put people and their families through such pain
0:29:49 > 0:29:52before giving them the help that could be life-changing?
0:29:52 > 0:29:56My honourable
0:29:56 > 0:29:58Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse raised those issues
0:29:58 > 0:30:00in an Adjournment debate earlier this year,
0:30:00 > 0:30:02and briefly at the beginning of his speech today.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05He was told earlier this year that the National Institute
0:30:05 > 0:30:07for Health and Care Excellence was launching a consultation
0:30:07 > 0:30:10on the relevant guidelines.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13That has not happened.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17The guidelines have been in place since 2009,
0:30:17 > 0:30:17Are you
0:30:17 > 0:30:22but technology and costs have moved on a great deal since then.
0:30:22 > 0:30:27I wish to ask the Minister a few questions.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30If he cannot respond to them all today, I would be very happy
0:30:30 > 0:30:34for him to consult with colleagues and write to me, and other Members
0:30:34 > 0:30:40participating in the debate, with a more considered response.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43First, why has the NICE consultation, which we were promised
0:30:43 > 0:30:45would be launched in summer this year, not yet been launched,
0:30:46 > 0:30:48and when will it be?
0:30:48 > 0:30:52Secondly, does he agree that Lamina's case and many similar cases
0:30:52 > 0:30:54around the country show that there is an overwhelming
0:30:54 > 0:31:00argument for revising those criteria?
0:31:00 > 0:31:04Thirdly, whatever hearing loss threshold is picked,
0:31:04 > 0:31:08does the Minister agree that the hearing loss test needs
0:31:08 > 0:31:10to be done in real-world conditions that approximate to how people
0:31:10 > 0:31:15actually live their lives and conduct conversations, and so on?
0:31:15 > 0:31:20Fourthly, and perhaps most fundamentally, why does it
0:31:20 > 0:31:20a
0:31:20 > 0:31:24take so long for people to get an implant?
0:31:24 > 0:31:29Why is it such a battle?
0:31:29 > 0:31:32The NHS is there for those who need it, it should not be an organisation
0:31:32 > 0:31:35that people have to battle with to get the treatment
0:31:35 > 0:31:38that ?they need.
0:31:38 > 0:31:41Had my constituent been helped earlier,
0:31:41 > 0:31:44she might still be in a job.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47She would not need to rely on the state for financial support,
0:31:47 > 0:31:50and her family would not have had to go through the huge difficulties
0:31:50 > 0:31:52that they have all been through together over the last
0:31:52 > 0:31:57couple of years.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00It is time for a step change in the urgency with which the issue
0:32:00 > 0:32:01of cochlear implants is treated.
0:32:01 > 0:32:05The guidelines must be revised.
0:32:05 > 0:32:10NICE needs to move on that soon, so that the suffering
0:32:10 > 0:32:12of my constituent Lamina Lloyd, and the many people around
0:32:12 > 0:32:22the country who are in a similar position, can be alleviated.
0:32:22 > 0:32:29On a point of order, Mr McCabe.
0:32:29 > 0:32:30I asked my staff to monitor the transmission
0:32:31 > 0:32:32of the sign language.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34It is not being broadcast, the cameras do not
0:32:34 > 0:32:40meet the interpreters.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44poet appreciate if you took this back to these speakers panel and
0:32:44 > 0:32:48have a discussion about this in due course.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51I understand that the sign language is being filmed today,
0:32:51 > 0:32:55and when the debate is re-broadcast it will appear in a box, as is
0:32:55 > 0:32:56normal in other TV transmissions.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59Obviously this is an early stage.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02I will report back on how the whole debate goes and any
0:33:02 > 0:33:06points that Members raise, but I understand that
0:33:06 > 0:33:09the arrangements for today are that when the debate is re-broadcast,
0:33:09 > 0:33:10the sign language will appear.
0:33:10 > 0:33:19I am grateful for that clarification, Mr McCabe.
0:33:19 > 0:33:26Kelly Tolhurst.
0:33:26 > 0:33:27Thank you.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe.
0:33:29 > 0:33:35I congratulate the honourable
0:33:35 > 0:33:37Member for Poplar and Limehouse on securing this important debate,
0:33:37 > 0:33:40it is a real pleasure for me to speak in it.
0:33:40 > 0:33:42I also think it is an absolutely fantastic move that today's
0:33:43 > 0:33:46debate is being signed.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49I advocate that more debates held in the Chamber be signed.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52It should be the norm in the House of Commons,
0:33:52 > 0:33:57not an exception to the rule.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00I was very keen to speak in this debate about deafness and hearing
0:34:00 > 0:34:08loss, because it has had a major effect on my family.
0:34:08 > 0:34:16Today, rather than focusing on the many issues that affect deaf
0:34:16 > 0:34:19people in this country, I want to share with you
0:34:19 > 0:34:22an example of how deafness has affected my life.
0:34:22 > 0:34:2525 years ago, at the age of 40, my mum lost her hearing
0:34:25 > 0:34:31literally overnight, due to a virus.
0:34:31 > 0:34:36She woke up one morning and could not hear any more.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39She had not been ill and had never had any hearing problems,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43but she went from being a hearing person one day to having no
0:34:43 > 0:34:52hearing the next day.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55My father took my mother to the hospital.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58At that time, we had a really good ear, nose and throat
0:34:58 > 0:34:59hospital in Maidstone.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01About a week after my mum lost her hearing,
0:35:01 > 0:35:03my father took her there, and it was confirmed
0:35:03 > 0:35:05that she had no hearing.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07The hospital staff put her on steroids and told her
0:35:07 > 0:35:11that it was due to a virus, that the hairs in her ears had died
0:35:11 > 0:35:16and that it was very unlikely she would ever get her hearing back.
0:35:16 > 0:35:20That was absolutely devastating for my mother and for us all
0:35:20 > 0:35:28my sister, myself and my dad.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30It changed her and our lives fundamentally.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33We could not communicate with her, everything had to be written down.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36My mum ?could not sign or lip-read, so she was flung into isolation
0:35:36 > 0:35:38and, quite honestly, a state of depression.
0:35:38 > 0:35:44It was a really tough time.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47She had two teenage girls who were at that time very
0:35:47 > 0:35:49much into their singing, and all of a sudden,
0:35:49 > 0:35:52my mum had to accept that she would never again be able
0:35:52 > 0:35:59to hear her daughters sing.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03Due to the abruptness of her hearing loss,
0:36:03 > 0:36:07it was really difficult to mitigate some of the emotional
0:36:07 > 0:36:13damage she suffered.
0:36:13 > 0:36:17The NHS looked after her and the staff tried to help her.
0:36:17 > 0:36:21They gave her lip-reading classes and offered her support
0:36:21 > 0:36:24with a counsellor, they even put her in contact with another lady
0:36:24 > 0:36:27in the country who had lost her hearing overnight,
0:36:27 > 0:36:30but my mum was still mourning the loss of something
0:36:30 > 0:36:38that she was never going to get back.
0:36:38 > 0:36:45Importantly, she was never told that she was a candidate
0:36:45 > 0:36:47to have a cochlear implant, that reinforces the point
0:36:47 > 0:36:51made by the Right Honourable
0:36:51 > 0:36:56Member for Wolverhampton South East.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Deafness is the invisible disability.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01My mum did not look like she had a disability.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05Her voice sounded like it always had, because she had been a hearing
0:37:05 > 0:37:08person for 40 years, but I saw and experienced at first
0:37:08 > 0:37:17hand the major barriers that people who are deaf have to face.
0:37:17 > 0:37:22I recognise that there are strong differences between individuals
0:37:22 > 0:37:25who have been born deaf, those who have gradual hearing loss,
0:37:25 > 0:37:33and those who had hearing loss as a small child,
0:37:33 > 0:37:36perhaps due to meningitis or some other illness,
0:37:36 > 0:37:39but the biggest thing for my mum was that she did not
0:37:39 > 0:37:40have any deaf friends.
0:37:40 > 0:37:45We did not even know any deaf people.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47Particularly acute was the fact that my mum's opportunities
0:37:47 > 0:37:51were severely limited.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54She had looked after me and my sister at home,
0:37:54 > 0:37:56but was looking forward to going back to work
0:37:56 > 0:38:00because we were now in our teens.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04All of a sudden, she found that she was unable to work,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07because she did not have the confidence,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10and it was very difficult for her to understand anyone
0:38:10 > 0:38:12at that time.
0:38:12 > 0:38:22The opportunities open to her were therefore extremely limited.
0:38:23 > 0:38:25Eventually, after eight years, my mum decided that she wanted to do
0:38:26 > 0:38:30something about her hearing loss.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32She went to the doctors, and they talked to her
0:38:32 > 0:38:38about whether she could be a candidate for a cochlear implant.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41She was told that she would have been able to access one immediately,
0:38:41 > 0:38:44because of the severity of her hearing loss,
0:38:44 > 0:38:47but it then took another two years for her to have an implant,
0:38:47 > 0:38:50because 25 years ago the funding was quite a challenge,
0:38:50 > 0:38:52due to the fact that such procedures were not as frequent
0:38:52 > 0:38:59as they are now.
0:38:59 > 0:39:04After ten years of suffering, being isolated, suffering
0:39:04 > 0:39:07with depression and being unable to go back to work, she finally had
0:39:07 > 0:39:12the cochlear implant.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16Sadly for her, after a year of travelling to St Thomas'
0:39:16 > 0:39:24Hospital, with its fabulous technicians, led by Terry Nunn,
0:39:24 > 0:39:26it was decided that the cochlear implant had not worked.
0:39:26 > 0:39:33She therefore had to go back for a further implant.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36Many people will not understand that a cochlear implant does not bring
0:39:36 > 0:39:40someone's hearing back.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43They do not hear like they did when they were a hearing person,
0:39:43 > 0:39:52but it gives them some quality of life.
0:39:52 > 0:39:55Technology has changed, and 25 years on, cochlear implants
0:39:55 > 0:39:59are available not just in London, but all over the country.
0:39:59 > 0:40:03What is very clear is that the sooner someone has
0:40:03 > 0:40:11a cochlear implant after the loss of hearing, the greater impact it
0:40:11 > 0:40:18will have on how that person hears.
0:40:18 > 0:40:25I was extremely worried on reading the reports,
0:40:25 > 0:40:27which have ?already been mentioned, that some clinical commissioning
0:40:27 > 0:40:31groups are now looking at stopping hearing aid provision.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34One of the only things that kept my mother going through those
0:40:34 > 0:40:39ten years was that she was using a hearing aid.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42It did not help her hearing, all it did was accentuate the background
0:40:42 > 0:40:48noises and cut out some of her tinnitus some of the time-but
0:40:48 > 0:40:51if she had not had access to that service in the time before having
0:40:51 > 0:40:54a cochlear implant, it would have been even worse.
0:40:54 > 0:40:59In my view, hearing aids are a cheap way of having an impact
0:40:59 > 0:41:09on people who are suffering from gradual hearing loss.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11I find it quite frightening that CCGs would even be
0:41:11 > 0:41:14considering stopping that support, and I think it is a dangerous
0:41:14 > 0:41:21road to go down.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23As honourable Members have already said,
0:41:23 > 0:41:26hearing loss, even if it is mild,
0:41:26 > 0:41:28sends people into isolation.
0:41:28 > 0:41:29They might not put themselves into certain situations
0:41:29 > 0:41:32because of fear of not understanding or not being able to
0:41:32 > 0:41:36hear what is going on.
0:41:36 > 0:41:40I used to go into the supermarket with my mother and people would ask
0:41:40 > 0:41:43her if she would like a carrier bag, but because she did not hear them,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46they would think she was rude.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49They might make a rude comment to her because of that,
0:41:49 > 0:41:51but she actually could not hear them.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54Hearing aids are massively important and can be an important way
0:41:54 > 0:41:56of keeping people out of that isolation and of maintaining
0:41:56 > 0:42:00their contact with the health service so that the hearing loss
0:42:00 > 0:42:02can be monitored.
0:42:02 > 0:42:08It is not often talked about, but people who suffer from hearing
0:42:08 > 0:42:15loss and deafness are also very embarrassed by their disability.
0:42:15 > 0:42:20If it was physically visible, everybody would be talking
0:42:20 > 0:42:30about that kind of disability.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34People would be banging the drum and asking for support
0:42:34 > 0:42:36from the Government and different organisations, but deaf people work,
0:42:36 > 0:42:39get on with their lives and rarely moan very much.
0:42:39 > 0:42:47They put up with quite a lot.
0:42:47 > 0:42:50Because they do not have a visible characteristic, it is very difficult
0:42:50 > 0:42:52for hearing people to truly understand the isolation,
0:42:52 > 0:43:01depression and mental health issues that they are subjected to.
0:43:01 > 0:43:04I have spoken today very much from an emotional point of view
0:43:04 > 0:43:08about a real-life situation that has affected me.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12I hope that what I have said has illustrated that deafness can take
0:43:12 > 0:43:17many different forms, it occurs not just in old age, or from birth.
0:43:17 > 0:43:25For too long, deaf people have been disadvantaged and isolated.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29It is really good to have this debate, and I join the honourable
0:43:29 > 0:43:32Member for Poplar and Limehouse in supporting the cause of the UK
0:43:33 > 0:43:36Council on Deafness.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40All its recommendations are well thought out,
0:43:40 > 0:43:49meaningful and realistic asks.
0:43:49 > 0:43:55I hope that anyone who is deaf who watches this debate next week
0:43:55 > 0:44:00will see that it is good to have such debates in Parliament,
0:44:00 > 0:44:04and that we care about deafness in this country and the people that
0:44:04 > 0:44:05suffer from it.
0:44:05 > 0:44:12I am pleased to have been able to speak today.
0:44:12 > 0:44:18Stephen Lloyd.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe.
0:44:21 > 0:44:22I join other honourable
0:44:22 > 0:44:27Members in congratulating the honourable
0:44:27 > 0:44:30Member for Poplar and Limehouse on securing the debate.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32I was chair of the all-party parliamentary group on deafness,
0:44:32 > 0:44:37but was rudely interrupted in 2015 when something else happened.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40It is a pleasure to be back and to serve as vice-chair
0:44:40 > 0:44:41of the APPG under the honourable
0:44:41 > 0:44:45Gentleman's excellent chairmanship.? I commend the previous speakers'
0:44:45 > 0:44:52comments about cochlear implants.
0:44:52 > 0:44:58I remember 20 or 30 years ago, when they really began to take off.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00The difference between now and then is absolutely huge.
0:45:00 > 0:45:07That overlaps with what the honourable
0:45:07 > 0:45:09Member for Rochester and Strood described
0:45:09 > 0:45:10of her mother's experience.
0:45:10 > 0:45:15I thank her for that moving speech.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18Her mum will be proud of her, I am absolutely sure of that.
0:45:18 > 0:45:22I can relate to a lot of the things that her mum went through.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24I have been deaf for about 50 years of my life.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27Cochlear implants have made a huge difference and the improvement
0:45:27 > 0:45:28is absolutely massive.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31The Minister is from the Department of Health-he is an old colleague
0:45:31 > 0:45:33from coalition days, it is good to see him-and
0:45:33 > 0:45:35I ask him to explore
0:45:35 > 0:45:39how cochlear implants can be ever more available,
0:45:39 > 0:45:41because they do much more now and they do it much earlier.
0:45:41 > 0:45:45They are a game-changer.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48For many years after they first came out, a long, long time ago,
0:45:48 > 0:45:52they really did not make that much of a difference.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54There was vigorous opposition from a lot of the British
0:45:54 > 0:45:58Sign Language community, and I understand why.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01That has changed a great deal over the years and cochlear implants
0:46:01 > 0:46:03are now, in many ways, the future for
0:46:03 > 0:46:06transforming deafness.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09I never really believed it in the old days, but now I do,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12because of the advances.
0:46:12 > 0:46:16I would like to cover a few areas, a couple from the UK Council
0:46:16 > 0:46:18on Deafness angle and a couple specifically because we have
0:46:18 > 0:46:22a Health Minister here.
0:46:22 > 0:46:28British Sign Language is a different language.
0:46:28 > 0:46:34I am hard of hearing and have been since having measles when I was six.
0:46:34 > 0:46:37Sometimes, people might say to me, "Stephen, are you a member
0:46:37 > 0:46:42of the deaf community?"
0:46:42 > 0:46:45And I would say, "No, I am a member of the hearing community.
0:46:45 > 0:46:46I just don't hear very well."
0:46:46 > 0:46:47That is an important point,
0:46:47 > 0:46:49because they are completely different.
0:46:49 > 0:46:50The deaf community is a community.
0:46:50 > 0:46:52The BSL community is a completely different community, with cultural
0:46:53 > 0:46:54norms and a different language.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57BSL is not even a direct translation of my speech, it is different.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00Sometimes people do not understand that.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04They would say to me, "Why don't you learn BSL?"
0:47:04 > 0:47:06and I would say, "Because I am a member
0:47:06 > 0:47:09of the hearing community, I just don't hear very well,
0:47:09 > 0:47:10and it is a different language."
0:47:10 > 0:47:12I am very supportive of profoundly
0:47:12 > 0:47:18deaf people trying to get BSL as a recognised language,
0:47:18 > 0:47:23as has happened, I believe, in Holyrood in Scotland.
0:47:23 > 0:47:28I remember just before 2015 having meetings with a number
0:47:28 > 0:47:31of people down from Scotland and we were watching that
0:47:31 > 0:47:35development with great interest.
0:47:35 > 0:47:39Once it happens in one legislative House, it is very hard for other
0:47:39 > 0:47:42legislative Houses not to follow, so I say good luck with
0:47:42 > 0:47:45that up in Scotland, because it is a game-changer.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48It will happen eventually in Westminster.
0:47:48 > 0:47:53When it does, it is not just a label.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56When a nation says that a language is a statutory language,
0:47:56 > 0:47:59it means it is accessible and that public bodies have to provide
0:47:59 > 0:48:02information in that language, and that will make a huge difference
0:48:02 > 0:48:10for a lot of profoundly deaf people.
0:48:10 > 0:48:11I will tell honourable
0:48:11 > 0:48:13Members why and give one very good example.
0:48:13 > 0:48:17I have been involved for many years in politics around deafness
0:48:17 > 0:48:20as a trustee of this or a patron of that, or what have you.
0:48:20 > 0:48:24I knew a lot of people who are profoundly deaf
0:48:24 > 0:48:27working in that area, including from the British
0:48:28 > 0:48:33Deaf Association.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36I just came from a statement this morning in which the Secretary
0:48:36 > 0:48:39of State for the Department for Work and Pensions mentioned that
0:48:39 > 0:48:45about 50% of disabled people are out of work.
0:48:45 > 0:48:48I tell you ?what, Mr McCabe, it is a hell of a lot higher
0:48:48 > 0:48:51than that for the profoundly deaf.
0:48:51 > 0:48:54I do not have the figures because no one really finds them.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57The DWP-it used to drive me crazy when I was here before-will not
0:48:57 > 0:48:58slice the different disabilities up.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00It just says "problems with deafness and problems
0:49:00 > 0:49:02with visual impairment", which completely denies
0:49:02 > 0:49:03the separateness of deafness.
0:49:03 > 0:49:06Off the bat, though, I would say that profoundly deaf
0:49:06 > 0:49:08people have an unemployment rate of around 70%, which
0:49:09 > 0:49:19is just ridiculous.
0:49:19 > 0:49:24How can we possibly have 100,000 people -
0:49:24 > 0:49:26if not more - of adult working
0:49:26 > 0:49:28age and have such barriers that 70% are unemployed?
0:49:28 > 0:49:29It is a blooming outrage!
0:49:29 > 0:49:39Now that I am back in the House, which is wonderful for the people
0:49:40 > 0:49:43of Eastbourne, I thank them, I am determined to lobby hard to make BSL
0:49:43 > 0:49:44an accepted language.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46I am also keen to join the honourable
0:49:46 > 0:49:51Member for Poplar and Limehouse in lobbying on Access to Work.
0:49:51 > 0:49:53The Government have done a great thing with Access to Work.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55I think it was John Major's
0:49:55 > 0:49:56Government that started it.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59Access to Work is a good thing which has made a huge
0:49:59 > 0:50:02difference to a lot of people, and I am a big supporter or it,
0:50:02 > 0:50:03but there is a challenge.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06It has made a great difference for people who are in work
0:50:06 > 0:50:08and acquire a disability through illness, a catastrophic
0:50:08 > 0:50:11incident or what have you-it has been fantastic in helping them
0:50:11 > 0:50:13to stay in work.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16I want it to be improved, particularly in the small
0:50:16 > 0:50:18and medium-sized enterprises sector, so that SMEs understand
0:50:18 > 0:50:22that they can employ people with disabilities.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26Access to Work provides a lot of the money that
0:50:26 > 0:50:28will buy an induction loop, put in a ramp, or do whatever
0:50:28 > 0:50:35is necessary to help an employer take on a disabled person.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37That is really important.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40Corporates kind of get it-they are huge, and they have massive
0:50:40 > 0:50:42human resources departments and pots of money, so they try
0:50:42 > 0:50:44to do their best.
0:50:44 > 0:50:51It is much harder for an SME employing three people.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54If I were the director of a plumber working seven days a week,
0:50:54 > 0:50:57and someone with disability came to see me, it would be
0:50:57 > 0:51:00so much easier to say, "No, no," and find an excuse not
0:51:00 > 0:51:03to employ them.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06Access to Work often provides the money that allows the SME
0:51:06 > 0:51:09to take on that disabled person.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11I will let the House into a vast secret.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14I say this with authority, because I used to be a consultant
0:51:14 > 0:51:16in this area for years.
0:51:16 > 0:51:18If a business employs disabled people, they get lower churn.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21I have seen that in call centres, in businesses
0:51:21 > 0:51:24and in numerous other areas.
0:51:24 > 0:51:29I used to be very involved with the Federation
0:51:29 > 0:51:32of Small Businesses, and I am sure I will be
0:51:32 > 0:51:35again now I am back.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37Lower churn is really important for businesses
0:51:37 > 0:51:40if a lot of their spend goes on employing people.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43At a later date, I will explain why it leads to lower
0:51:43 > 0:51:47churn, but it does.
0:51:47 > 0:51:51Will the honourable Gentleman give way?
0:51:57 > 0:51:59The honourable
0:51:59 > 0:52:01Gentleman is talking about the challenges that SMEs
0:52:01 > 0:52:05have in employing people with such impairments.
0:52:05 > 0:52:09Does he agree that it is difficult for many people who suffer
0:52:09 > 0:52:12from deafness or failing hearing to progress within organisations
0:52:12 > 0:52:20because of the cap?
0:52:20 > 0:52:23It is therefore almost self-enforcing that those people
0:52:23 > 0:52:29are pressed into part-time working.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31That is a very good example.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34I have no hearing on my left, so I could not hear the honourable
0:52:34 > 0:52:35Gentleman trying to intervene.
0:52:35 > 0:52:37Jim knows to punch me.
0:52:37 > 0:52:38The honourable Gentleman is right.
0:52:38 > 0:52:40There are issues to do with Access to Work.
0:52:40 > 0:52:46As it has expanded and cost a lot more money over the years,
0:52:46 > 0:52:47the Government, I am not chucking stones,
0:52:47 > 0:52:49as I know how challenging
0:52:49 > 0:52:51it is to work within the Budget envelope-have introduced more
0:52:51 > 0:52:52and more caps.
0:52:52 > 0:53:00Rather than focusing on different ways of capping Access to Work,
0:53:00 > 0:53:04I would like the DWP, the Minister can go back and tell his
0:53:04 > 0:53:05colleagues-to focus on better and more creative ways
0:53:06 > 0:53:15to use the money.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18I know from years of experience, colleagues will have
0:53:18 > 0:53:23to take my word for it, that the majority of disabled
0:53:23 > 0:53:25people who get into a job, are properly managed
0:53:25 > 0:53:31and have the right support, stay there for years.
0:53:31 > 0:53:38That costs much less money than constantly having to re-employ.
0:53:38 > 0:53:40I thank the honourable Gentleman for the intervention.
0:53:40 > 0:53:43I want to talk about two key areas that are specific
0:53:43 > 0:53:48to the Minister's brief.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52One of the things I fought for last time I was here, I am going to do
0:53:52 > 0:53:55so now as the Minister is in Health, was an automatic
0:53:55 > 0:53:56invitation for a hearing aid screening whenever someone
0:53:56 > 0:53:59hits pension age.
0:53:59 > 0:54:03That would be at 65 or 66, although that was under
0:54:03 > 0:54:12the coalition, I think retirement age is 150 now.
0:54:12 > 0:54:16That is significant because something like 50%
0:54:16 > 0:54:22of people over the age of 65, heading up to 60% as they get older,
0:54:22 > 0:54:27begin to get age-onset hearing loss.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31My hearing loss is not age-onset, although I am old enough now-it
0:54:31 > 0:54:35was measles, as I said-and the honourable
0:54:35 > 0:54:38Member for Poplar and Limehouse is far too young, so his cannot
0:54:38 > 0:54:39possibly be age-onset.
0:54:39 > 0:54:42The thing with hearing loss is that the vast majority of people
0:54:42 > 0:54:45ignore it for 15 years because it is not a sexy disability.
0:54:45 > 0:54:50The honourable Member for Rochester
0:54:50 > 0:54:52and Strood flagged that up, and it is true.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55People start losing their hearing, they do not admit to it,
0:54:55 > 0:54:58their husband or wife goes potty, the volume is turned up
0:54:58 > 0:55:00massively on the television, and eventually their kids drag them
0:55:00 > 0:55:03to the audiology department, if it is still open-we will come
0:55:03 > 0:55:06to that-in their mid-70s.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08The problem with that, there is significant
0:55:08 > 0:55:12data to prove this,
0:55:12 > 0:55:14which I will happily share with the Minister another time, is
0:55:14 > 0:55:17that the longer someone takes to get a hearing aid,
0:55:17 > 0:55:18the lower the chance of it working.
0:55:18 > 0:55:20The difference between a 75-year-old and a 65-year-old in
0:55:21 > 0:55:22acuity terms is enormous.
0:55:22 > 0:55:26Hearing aids are not like glasses.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29If I cannot see properly, I put glasses on and I have 20:20 vision.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32Hearing aids do not replace lost sound, all they do is amplify
0:55:32 > 0:55:35the residual hearing.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38Let me try to explain that to colleagues very quickly.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41Imagine a radio with a battery that is running down.
0:55:41 > 0:55:43If the volume is turned up, it makes a lot more sound,
0:55:44 > 0:55:45but it is very discordant.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48That is what hearing aids do.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51I was pressing very hard for the Department of Health to run
0:55:51 > 0:55:56a pilot so that all people who get to pensionable age receive an invite
0:55:56 > 0:56:01to audiology or wherever, it could be a pharmacy,
0:56:01 > 0:56:03for that matter, to have a hearing test.
0:56:03 > 0:56:06My rationale for that, which was supported by pretty much
0:56:06 > 0:56:10every group that could possibly be imagined, including NICE,
0:56:10 > 0:56:13was that if people get in early, they are forced to accept
0:56:13 > 0:56:16they are losing their hearing.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19They get a hearing aid, and ipso facto it is much
0:56:19 > 0:56:20easier to get used to.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23My view, which is shared by many others, is that that
0:56:23 > 0:56:25would be a huge advantage, not least in reducing
0:56:25 > 0:56:26the levels of dementia.
0:56:26 > 0:56:30We have discovered that dementia is linked to social isolation,
0:56:30 > 0:56:35and old people who are and deaf or hard of hearing tend to isolate.?
0:56:35 > 0:56:41The Department of Health agreed in principle to run a pilot.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43It took me a long time to get that agreement,
0:56:43 > 0:56:45because the Department did not want to do it.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48It knew that I was right and all those extra hearing aids
0:56:48 > 0:56:50were going to cost a lot more money.
0:56:50 > 0:56:54Then there was a tragedy, colleagues: I lost the election.
0:56:54 > 0:56:57I was not there to nag like hell, and it sort of disappeared
0:56:57 > 0:56:59and was put on the back burner.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01I am delighted to see that my old colleague
0:57:01 > 0:57:06is now the Minister.
0:57:06 > 0:57:09I am sure that, now I have put that on the table,
0:57:09 > 0:57:12he will move heaven and earth to develop it into a pilot.
0:57:12 > 0:57:18It will make a huge difference to hundreds of thousands of people-I
0:57:18 > 0:57:20am deadly serious, so I encourage that.
0:57:20 > 0:57:24It is easy to cut hearing aids, because it is mostly
0:57:24 > 0:57:27old people who use them.
0:57:27 > 0:57:29They are not organised and are not going to complain like hell,
0:57:29 > 0:57:31they are isolated, anyway.
0:57:31 > 0:57:34As I said, they are in their mid-70s by the time they go
0:57:34 > 0:57:36to audiology departments.
0:57:36 > 0:57:39I am really pretty angry that a lot of CCGs are getting away
0:57:39 > 0:57:43with beginning to trim audiology services because there are not
0:57:43 > 0:57:47enough people fighting their corner.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50I know that CCGs are independent, but the Minister and I also know
0:57:50 > 0:57:55that there are protocols.
0:57:55 > 0:57:58In his response, I ask that he make a commitment that CCGs will be told
0:57:58 > 0:58:05how important audiology and hearing aids are.
0:58:05 > 0:58:10They must not use the austerity challenges they face
0:58:10 > 0:58:14to cut audiology.
0:58:14 > 0:58:17On that note, I again thank the honourable
0:58:17 > 0:58:29Member for Poplar and Limehouse for securing this debate.
0:58:29 > 0:58:32It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe.
0:58:32 > 0:58:33I congratulate my Honourable
0:58:33 > 0:58:35Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
0:58:35 > 0:58:38on securing the debate.
0:58:38 > 0:58:46Colleagues have spoken very movingly about their personal experiences.
0:58:46 > 0:58:51It is great to see my Honourable
0:58:51 > 0:58:53Friend the Member for Winchester in his place
0:58:53 > 0:58:54as the responding Minister.
0:58:54 > 0:58:57I am sure he will do this ably, but it is an indication
0:58:57 > 0:59:00of the challenges that the hard-of-hearing and deaf
0:59:00 > 0:59:02community face that Honourable
0:59:02 > 0:59:08Members have mentioned five Departments that have issues that
0:59:08 > 0:59:11need to be addressed - the Department of
0:59:11 > 0:59:14Health, the Department for Education, the Department
0:59:14 > 0:59:16for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy,
0:59:16 > 0:59:17the Department for Culture,
0:59:17 > 0:59:20Media and Sport and the Department for Work and Pensions.
0:59:20 > 0:59:22That shows that by working in departmental silos,
0:59:22 > 0:59:25there is perhaps a danger that some of challenges that we are hearing
0:59:25 > 0:59:29about today are not being properly addressed.
0:59:29 > 0:59:30My Honourable Friend the Member for
0:59:30 > 0:59:34Poplar and Limehouse
0:59:34 > 0:59:39is a champion for the deaf and hard-of-hearing community.
0:59:39 > 0:59:42I will briefly highlight the work of another such champion,
0:59:42 > 0:59:45Ann Jillings, from Lowestoft, who is working with passion
0:59:45 > 0:59:48and determination to secure the best possible education for her son,
0:59:48 > 0:59:51Daniel.
0:59:51 > 0:59:54In doing so, she is campaigning for other parents of deaf
0:59:54 > 0:59:58children in north Suffolk.
0:59:58 > 1:00:06Daniel started at Bungay High School in September.
1:00:06 > 1:00:09He is doing well and there is a good package of support in place for him,
1:00:09 > 1:00:13but Ann had to fight very hard to get that and she continues
1:00:13 > 1:00:16to campaign for a hearing impaired unit in north Suffolk.
1:00:16 > 1:00:21It is clear that not just in Suffolk but across the country,
1:00:21 > 1:00:28deaf children do not get the right support right from the start,
1:00:28 > 1:00:32so they cannot always realise their full potential at school.
1:00:32 > 1:00:34That can put them at a considerable ?disadvantage
1:00:34 > 1:00:39for the rest of their lives.
1:00:39 > 1:00:42We need to break down these barriers and create a properly
1:00:42 > 1:00:46funded national framework, within which local education
1:00:46 > 1:00:52authorities such as Suffolk County Council can provide a good education
1:00:52 > 1:00:55and support service locally.
1:00:55 > 1:00:59If they do not do that, they must be held to account.
1:00:59 > 1:01:03The National Deaf Children's Society, which does great work
1:01:03 > 1:01:07campaigning for deaf children to have the same opportunities
1:01:07 > 1:01:09as everyone else, has highlighted four issues on which Government
1:01:09 > 1:01:13action is needed to break down the barriers that
1:01:13 > 1:01:19deaf children face.
1:01:19 > 1:01:22First, the NHS needs to improve the quality
1:01:22 > 1:01:29of children's hearing services.
1:01:29 > 1:01:31The National Deaf Children's Society highlighted in its Listen Up!
1:01:31 > 1:01:33Campaign that, across the country, many such services have significant
1:01:33 > 1:01:36shortcomings and are failing to meet the necessary audiology standards.
1:01:36 > 1:01:40The quality assurance process that was previously in place has
1:01:40 > 1:01:50ended, and it has not been replaced by any other mandatory process.
1:01:50 > 1:01:52The NDCS has a three-point action plan to address
1:01:52 > 1:01:55this particular problem.
1:01:55 > 1:02:00First, NHS England must ensure that the children's audiology
1:02:00 > 1:02:10services that it directly commissions, such as
1:02:15 > 1:02:17for the under-fives, comply with the IQIPs, improving
1:02:17 > 1:02:19quality in physiological services-accreditation programme.
1:02:19 > 1:02:21Secondly, it is vital that that programme is more transparent,
1:02:21 > 1:02:23so that families know whether their services
1:02:23 > 1:02:27are good quality or whether they need to improve.
1:02:27 > 1:02:29Thirdly, the accreditation must be compulsory, so that all paediatric
1:02:29 > 1:02:30audiology services move towards running
1:02:30 > 1:02:37a good-quality operation.
1:02:37 > 1:02:40My second point relates to access to radio waves
1:02:40 > 1:02:49technology for deaf children.
1:02:49 > 1:02:52Radio aids play a vital role in helping deaf children to hear
1:02:52 > 1:02:55speech, they enable them to better understand their teacher,
1:02:55 > 1:02:57and they have a big impact on improving parent-child
1:02:57 > 1:03:02communication.
1:03:02 > 1:03:04Despite the obvious benefits, most local authorities do not
1:03:04 > 1:03:11currently make radio aids available for use by families in the home.
1:03:11 > 1:03:14The NDCS is calling on local authorities and the Department
1:03:14 > 1:03:17for Education to ensure that every child who could benefit from a radio
1:03:17 > 1:03:22aid is given access to one at the earliest possible opportunity.
1:03:22 > 1:03:27To do that, the Department for Education should encourage local
1:03:27 > 1:03:29authorities to make use of their special provision capital
1:03:29 > 1:03:32fund, to provide radio aids where they are needed.
1:03:32 > 1:03:35My third point relates to the need for a GCSE in British Sign Language.
1:03:35 > 1:03:38The Government really must listen to the right to sign campaign,
1:03:38 > 1:03:41to make British Sign Language available as a GCSE that can
1:03:41 > 1:03:42be taught in school.
1:03:42 > 1:03:50Ann Jillings points out that it is the first
1:03:50 > 1:04:00language of deaf children, so it is discriminatory that deaf
1:04:00 > 1:04:08children do not have the opportunity to achieve what is probably the most
1:04:08 > 1:04:12widely recognised qualification, and that it is given a lower status
1:04:12 > 1:04:17than other languages.
1:04:17 > 1:04:21There are other accredited qualifications in British Sign
1:04:21 > 1:04:24Language, but they are not widely available to children in schools
1:04:24 > 1:04:30and they are less likely to be recognised by employers.
1:04:30 > 1:04:35Daniel Jillings achieved his BSL level 1 three years ago,
1:04:35 > 1:04:39but it was not funded.
1:04:39 > 1:04:44Ann tutored him and paid for all the assessments herself.
1:04:44 > 1:04:49There is a compelling case for a GCSE in BSL,
1:04:49 > 1:04:51based on equality, the denial of choice for deaf children
1:04:51 > 1:04:54and the unnecessary barrier that it poses to further and higher
1:04:54 > 1:04:56education, and thereafter, entry to the workplace.
1:04:56 > 1:05:04That barrier must be removed.
1:05:04 > 1:05:10A GCSE has already been piloted and is largely ready to go.
1:05:10 > 1:05:13The Department for Education must make an exception to its blanket
1:05:13 > 1:05:17policy of not allowing any new GCSEs to be developed.?
1:05:17 > 1:05:19My fourth and final point relates to the special educational needs
1:05:19 > 1:05:23and disabilities framework.
1:05:23 > 1:05:30The Children and Families Act 2014 made significant changes
1:05:30 > 1:05:39to the SEND framework.
1:05:39 > 1:05:42One key change was replacing SEND statements with EHC, education,
1:05:43 > 1:05:45health and care plans.
1:05:45 > 1:05:47The deadline for implementing those changes is April next year.
1:05:47 > 1:05:50There is a concern that many schools and local education authorities
1:05:50 > 1:05:54are struggling to implement the changes in time.
1:05:54 > 1:05:58In Suffolk, Ofsted and the CQC identified weaknesses in the county
1:05:58 > 1:06:02council's practices in meeting the requirements of the Act.
1:06:02 > 1:06:04Authorities such as Suffolk must be provided with sufficient
1:06:04 > 1:06:13funding so that they can meet their obligations.
1:06:13 > 1:06:14Although the high needs block,
1:06:14 > 1:06:16which funds SEND support,
1:06:16 > 1:06:19has been protected in cash terms, it has not been adjusted to reflect
1:06:19 > 1:06:21a variety of additional challenges: the rising number of children
1:06:21 > 1:06:29and young people requiring additional support, the greater
1:06:29 > 1:06:33local authority responsibility for young children with SEND aged
1:06:33 > 1:06:36between 16 and 25 and in early years, and a trend towards placing
1:06:36 > 1:06:38more children in special schools.
1:06:38 > 1:06:44More money needs to be made available and Ofsted needs to review
1:06:44 > 1:06:49how it can strengthen the accountability framework around
1:06:49 > 1:06:57SEND and how it inspects schools.
1:06:57 > 1:07:00In conclusion, Ann Jillings has gone that extra mile and works
1:07:00 > 1:07:01tirelessly to ensure
1:07:01 > 1:07:05that Daniel gets the opportunity to have the best possible start
1:07:05 > 1:07:08in life and the best possible education, so that he can
1:07:08 > 1:07:14realise his full potential.
1:07:14 > 1:07:16There are many barriers that have been placed in her way
1:07:17 > 1:07:18in pursuit of that goal.
1:07:18 > 1:07:21I suggest that it is our duty, the duty of Government and of local
1:07:21 > 1:07:31authorities to remove those barriers as soon as possible.
1:07:34 > 1:07:36Kerry McCarthy.
1:07:36 > 1:07:39It is a pleasure, as always, to see you in the chair, Mr McCabe.
1:07:39 > 1:07:40I thank my Honourable
1:07:40 > 1:07:42Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
1:07:42 > 1:07:43for securing this important debate.
1:07:43 > 1:07:46The contributions so far have been fantastic.
1:07:46 > 1:07:56There are two issues in particular that affect deaf and hard-of-hearing
1:07:57 > 1:08:02First - the accreditation of children's
1:08:02 > 1:08:04hearing services, and second - the cap on the Access
1:08:04 > 1:08:05to Work scheme grants,
1:08:05 > 1:08:07which have already been mentioned.
1:08:07 > 1:08:09There are more than 50,000 deaf children across the UK
1:08:09 > 1:08:12and an estimated 794 deaf children in the Bristol area alone.
1:08:12 > 1:08:13For those children, high-quality audiology services
1:08:13 > 1:08:16are vital to carry out tests, fit and maintain hearing aids
1:08:16 > 1:08:19and provide rehabilitative support.
1:08:19 > 1:08:21Despite that, the Government have stopped mandatory
1:08:21 > 1:08:24inspections of services, instead replacing them
1:08:24 > 1:08:27with the improving quality in physiological services
1:08:28 > 1:08:33accreditation programme.
1:08:33 > 1:08:36Since the voluntary programme started in 2012, only 15%
1:08:36 > 1:08:42of children's audiology services have achieved IQIPs accreditation.
1:08:42 > 1:08:42You
1:08:42 > 1:08:45That means that 85% cannot guarantee that their service is good quality.
1:08:45 > 1:08:49That lack of transparency is unacceptable and leaves far too
1:08:49 > 1:08:53many families in the dark about the quality of their child's
1:08:53 > 1:08:56audiology service.
1:08:56 > 1:08:58Obviously, it is of immense importance to parents
1:08:58 > 1:09:01that their children have access to good services.
1:09:01 > 1:09:03Some services have stepped up to the starting blocks
1:09:03 > 1:09:07by signing up to the scheme, such as St Michael's Hospital
1:09:07 > 1:09:10in Bristol which serves my constituents, and a few are nearing
1:09:10 > 1:09:12the finish line and accreditation, but too many are not
1:09:12 > 1:09:16taking part at all.
1:09:16 > 1:09:18The National Deaf Children's Society, through its Listen Up!
1:09:18 > 1:09:22Campaign, is calling on the Government and NHS England
1:09:22 > 1:09:24to make assessments of children's ?audiology services mandatory
1:09:24 > 1:09:26and for information from these assessments
1:09:26 > 1:09:28to be publicly available.
1:09:28 > 1:09:31I support that campaign and implore the Government and NHS England
1:09:31 > 1:09:34to implement changes to help ensure that deaf children get the quality
1:09:34 > 1:09:36of service they deserve.
1:09:36 > 1:09:41That could make so much difference to their future life chances.
1:09:41 > 1:09:44The second issue is the cap on Access to Work grants.
1:09:44 > 1:09:48As we heard from my Honourable
1:09:48 > 1:09:51Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse, Access to Work
1:09:51 > 1:09:52enables many disabled people to overcome work-related
1:09:52 > 1:09:54obstacles by providing practical advice and support,
1:09:54 > 1:09:57and grants towards extra employment costs that
1:09:57 > 1:10:07cannot be met by employers as reasonable adjustments.
1:10:09 > 1:10:11A Government review in 2004, some time ago,
1:10:11 > 1:10:12suggested that for every £1
1:10:12 > 1:10:14spent on Access to Work, £1.48 was generated
1:10:14 > 1:10:15for the Treasury.
1:10:15 > 1:10:18I am deeply concerned about the effects of the cap
1:10:18 > 1:10:20on Access to Work grants that the Department for Work
1:10:20 > 1:10:22and Pensions imposed for new claimants in 2015
1:10:22 > 1:10:24on the career prospects of deaf and hard-of-hearing employees.
1:10:24 > 1:10:26That cap is due to come into force for existing
1:10:27 > 1:10:32claimants in April next year.
1:10:32 > 1:10:35It is currently set at £42,100 per year, which is one and a half
1:10:35 > 1:10:37times the national average salary.
1:10:37 > 1:10:39Although that may be enough support for some people,
1:10:39 > 1:10:45for others it is not.
1:10:45 > 1:10:48I was contacted about this debate by a deaf constituent who uses
1:10:48 > 1:10:50British Sign Language and works as a disability adviser
1:10:50 > 1:10:54at an education establishment.
1:10:54 > 1:10:59Access to Work helps him participate fully and equally at work by paying
1:10:59 > 1:11:01the cost of communication support, namely, British Sign
1:11:01 > 1:11:06Language interpreters.
1:11:06 > 1:11:07Such support is inevitably expensive, it is necessary
1:11:07 > 1:11:09to pay people's
1:11:09 > 1:11:12wages, so it is unlikely to be classed as a reasonable
1:11:12 > 1:11:15adjustment for his employer.
1:11:15 > 1:11:18At the moment, he can access those interpreters' support
1:11:18 > 1:11:21throughout his working week.
1:11:21 > 1:11:24The cap means that he will be able to book interpreters for three
1:11:24 > 1:11:27days a week at most, leaving him with two
1:11:27 > 1:11:29days when he will not be able to communicate
1:11:29 > 1:11:30with his colleagues and clients.
1:11:30 > 1:11:35That means he will be unable to do his job effectively.
1:11:35 > 1:11:37Access to Work revolutionised deaf people's career opportunities,
1:11:37 > 1:11:39shattering the glass ceiling that previously limited
1:11:40 > 1:11:43them to manual jobs.
1:11:43 > 1:11:46It is largely due to Access to Work that deaf people have progressed
1:11:46 > 1:11:49as far as their talent allows.
1:11:49 > 1:11:52There are now deaf chief executive officers, deaf intermediaries
1:11:52 > 1:11:54working at the Ministry of Justice, deaf theatre directors
1:11:54 > 1:11:57and deaf social workers.
1:11:57 > 1:12:00Yet research conducted earlier this year by DeafATW found that the cap
1:12:00 > 1:12:03on Access to Work grants is already having a detrimental effect
1:12:03 > 1:12:04on the deaf community.
1:12:04 > 1:12:09We heard the figures from my Honourable
1:12:09 > 1:12:11Friend.
1:12:11 > 1:12:13On behalf of my constituent and all those in the deaf community
1:12:13 > 1:12:16who have benefited or stand to benefit from that scheme,
1:12:16 > 1:12:18I implore the Minister to listen to what is being said,
1:12:18 > 1:12:22remove or raise the Access to Work cap, and once again lift the ceiling
1:12:22 > 1:12:32on the career aspirations of those who are deaf or hard of hearing.
1:12:32 > 1:12:35Penning.
1:12:35 > 1:12:37It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe,
1:12:37 > 1:12:40and a pleasure to speak in a debate secured by my good
1:12:40 > 1:12:41friend the Honourable
1:12:41 > 1:12:44Member for Poplar and Limehouse.
1:12:44 > 1:12:46We have been on many campaigns together over the years,
1:12:46 > 1:12:48not least in our previous careers.
1:12:48 > 1:12:50I need to declare an interest at the outset.
1:12:50 > 1:12:54I have been honorary patron of the Hertfordshire Hearing
1:12:54 > 1:12:58?Advisory Service, a fantastic charity that works not only
1:12:58 > 1:13:00in Hertfordshire but across many counties, for more than 10 years.
1:13:00 > 1:13:03I disagree with hardly anything that has been said in this
1:13:03 > 1:13:05really positive debate.
1:13:05 > 1:13:07I think that people watching and others will realise
1:13:07 > 1:13:10that the House can work together not only for people who are hard
1:13:10 > 1:13:13of hearing, but for people who are hard of hearing
1:13:13 > 1:13:15and have other issues.
1:13:15 > 1:13:19We have not discussed the fact that people who are hard of hearing
1:13:19 > 1:13:22or deaf often have other ailments, which can be as difficult for them
1:13:22 > 1:13:29as being hard of hearing.
1:13:29 > 1:13:30I can assure Honourable
1:13:30 > 1:13:32Members from experience that Ministers usually do not like former
1:13:32 > 1:13:35Ministers to stand up and talk about things that they might
1:13:35 > 1:13:39know something about.
1:13:39 > 1:13:41For a short time, I was the disability Minister
1:13:41 > 1:13:47and responsible for Access to Work.
1:13:47 > 1:13:49Let me be positive about Access to Work and break some
1:13:49 > 1:13:53of the taboos about it.
1:13:53 > 1:13:57As we have heard, it is one of the great schemes for people
1:13:57 > 1:14:00across this great nation who had been left behind, ignored and told
1:14:00 > 1:14:02that they could not work.
1:14:02 > 1:14:04Employers told people that they could not employ them
1:14:04 > 1:14:06because it was not safe to do so.
1:14:06 > 1:14:08That was complete and utter rubbish.
1:14:08 > 1:14:10I do not have to take the Honourable
1:14:10 > 1:14:13Gentleman's word for it, because there is evidence
1:14:13 > 1:14:15in the Department for Work and Pensions that people
1:14:15 > 1:14:18with disabilities work harder, are more likely to turn up for work
1:14:18 > 1:14:22and are more dedicated and more committed than any other employees.
1:14:22 > 1:14:23That is a fact.
1:14:23 > 1:14:24We know that.
1:14:24 > 1:14:27I went around the country as part of the disability confident scheme
1:14:27 > 1:14:30trying to encourage employers to take on people with all
1:14:30 > 1:14:31types of disabilities.
1:14:31 > 1:14:35That was pretty easy with bigger companies.
1:14:35 > 1:14:37There are some fantastic large companies out
1:14:37 > 1:14:39there-particularly Royal Mail.
1:14:39 > 1:14:42It gets biffed around a little at times in the House,
1:14:42 > 1:14:46but its commitment to people who either arrive with disabilities
1:14:46 > 1:14:51or acquire disabilities during their employment is fantastic.
1:14:51 > 1:14:55However, it is really hard with small and medium-sized enterprises.
1:14:55 > 1:14:59There is a myth that there is a risk: people say,
1:14:59 > 1:15:00"Health and safety prevents me."
1:15:00 > 1:15:01I was the Minister
1:15:01 > 1:15:02with responsibility for health and safety,
1:15:02 > 1:15:05too, and I was happy to go around and dispel that myth.
1:15:05 > 1:15:08We have to work really hard with SMEs.
1:15:08 > 1:15:12Access to Work was fantastic in helping thousands
1:15:12 > 1:15:17of people to get into work and have the confidence to stay.
1:15:17 > 1:15:20The cap was brought in just before I became the Minister responsible,
1:15:20 > 1:15:24and one of the first things I said was, "Where is the Department's
1:15:24 > 1:15:29evidence that we need to do this and that the cap will work?"
1:15:29 > 1:15:32Let me put this on the record:
1:15:32 > 1:15:33there is evidence in the DWP,
1:15:33 > 1:15:36the Department knows exactly what it is, and it is
1:15:36 > 1:15:38continually reviewed.
1:15:38 > 1:15:40Ministers are taught always to say at the Dispatch Box,
1:15:40 > 1:15:43"The Government continue to keep under review" this,
1:15:43 > 1:15:45that or whatever.
1:15:45 > 1:15:46I assure Honourable
1:15:46 > 1:15:48Members that the Department keeps that evidence under review.
1:15:49 > 1:15:50It is a shame that my Honourable
1:15:50 > 1:15:52Friend the Minister, who was my Parliamentary Private Secretary,
1:15:52 > 1:15:55is responsible for responding to this debate, but the DWP,
1:15:55 > 1:15:58which will see the record of this debate, knows whether the cap
1:15:58 > 1:16:01will work, is keeping it under review and needs to be open
1:16:01 > 1:16:03and honest about how it is working.
1:16:03 > 1:16:05If it is not working, it needs to be adjusted.
1:16:05 > 1:16:08As a former Minister, I will not have all that great work
1:16:08 > 1:16:14and all those people's aspirations and commitment to work lost
1:16:14 > 1:16:17because of a cap that does not actually save a huge amount of money
1:16:17 > 1:16:21in real terms.
1:16:25 > 1:16:26The right Honourable
1:16:26 > 1:16:28Gentleman makes the same points that we have all made.
1:16:28 > 1:16:30Access to Work is a great scheme.
1:16:30 > 1:16:31It works.
1:16:31 > 1:16:34As I understand it, the logic for the cap is that there is only
1:16:34 > 1:16:37so much money in the pot-that is always the case for
1:16:37 > 1:16:39Governments and therefore its purpose is to try to spread
1:16:39 > 1:16:41what is available as widely as possible.
1:16:41 > 1:16:45But for people with fantastic talent who could be advocates and champions
1:16:45 > 1:16:48for the deaf community by becoming chief executives and leaders
1:16:48 > 1:16:51of their professions and so on, the glass ceiling has been
1:16:51 > 1:16:59reinforced, because they can now get only £43,000.
1:16:59 > 1:17:02This is not a criticism, well, it is in some respects-but we need
1:17:02 > 1:17:07to ensure that the evidence is looked at regularly.
1:17:07 > 1:17:10Governments need to be kicked and beaten up when they get
1:17:10 > 1:17:14things wrong and praised when they get things right.
1:17:14 > 1:17:16I was proud that a Conservative Government
1:17:16 > 1:17:20brought in Access to Work, which is massively important.
1:17:20 > 1:17:24There will always be examples of abuse in the system and so on,
1:17:24 > 1:17:30but that does not give the Government carte blanche to say,
1:17:30 > 1:17:36"No, the only way this can work is with a cap," particularly
1:17:36 > 1:17:39if the evidence does not show that a cap will work.
1:17:39 > 1:17:43The Minister will have looked twice when he came into the Chamber
1:17:43 > 1:17:46and realised what this debate would mostly be about, which is not
1:17:46 > 1:17:50his responsibility but the DWP's.
1:17:50 > 1:17:53I am more than happy to go across to my old Department and sit
1:17:53 > 1:17:56with my old officials and explain to them exactly where the evidence
1:17:56 > 1:17:59is in their cupboards.
1:17:59 > 1:18:03Let me touch briefly on two other areas, and then on one thing that
1:18:03 > 1:18:08has not been touched on at all.
1:18:08 > 1:18:11I do not understand why, in the 21st century,
1:18:11 > 1:18:14a recognised language is not recognised in the House
1:18:14 > 1:18:19or across the country.
1:18:19 > 1:18:24I really do not understand why, all these years after I made a point
1:18:24 > 1:18:27of order in the main Chamber in 2005 to complain that a hearing
1:18:27 > 1:18:29loop was not available for my constituents
1:18:29 > 1:18:32when they were in the House-even when it was installed,
1:18:32 > 1:18:36it did not work properly-this is the first time a debate has been
1:18:36 > 1:18:42signed for our constituents.
1:18:42 > 1:18:46People will always go on about how that must cost more money.
1:18:46 > 1:18:48The cost is minimal compared with the benefit to our
1:18:48 > 1:18:54constituents of being part of the democratic process.
1:18:57 > 1:18:59I thank the right Honourable Gentleman for kicking off
1:18:59 > 1:19:02about the induction loop years ago,
1:19:02 > 1:19:07because I could not function as an MP in the Chamber without it.
1:19:08 > 1:19:11The things I do for everybody in this House.
1:19:11 > 1:19:13It was genuinely embarrassing.
1:19:13 > 1:19:21I remember it vividly.
1:19:21 > 1:19:23I said to the Speaker, Michael Martin, "My constituents
1:19:23 > 1:19:27have come to see this world heritage site and their Parliament at work.
1:19:27 > 1:19:30I took them on a tour, and frankly they got hardly any
1:19:30 > 1:19:32benefit apart from visuals, because they couldn't
1:19:32 > 1:19:34understand or hear a word I was saying."
1:19:34 > 1:19:35I seem to remember
1:19:35 > 1:19:37that there was the comment, from a sedentary position, "Well,
1:19:37 > 1:19:40they didn't miss very much," but I was trying to
1:19:40 > 1:19:43get across a point.
1:19:43 > 1:19:46This is the mother of Parliaments, and as we have heard
1:19:46 > 1:19:49from colleagues, we are way behind the loop again.
1:19:49 > 1:19:54I am sorry to use that terrible pun, but we are really behind.
1:19:54 > 1:19:57I hope that we will have a lurch forward.
1:19:57 > 1:20:00I have noticed all the Clerks coming in, and have heard that the Speaker
1:20:00 > 1:20:03will be reported to, and all that, and that is great,
1:20:03 > 1:20:05but it is absolutely useless unless someone
1:20:05 > 1:20:06actually does something.
1:20:06 > 1:20:08Then we can move on.
1:20:08 > 1:20:12I know this is a trial, but signing should be transmitted live.?
1:20:12 > 1:20:16Secondly, there should be a GCSE.
1:20:16 > 1:20:19I find it fascinating: we can see all the different courses
1:20:19 > 1:20:22that our young people do in schools and colleges, yet they are
1:20:22 > 1:20:29excluded in this way.
1:20:29 > 1:20:33If people do not want any more GCSEs, we could drop one of the ones
1:20:33 > 1:20:35that would not get used anywhere near as much as this.
1:20:36 > 1:20:39It would make people aware.
1:20:39 > 1:20:42In my constituency, people who are not deaf or hard of hearing
1:20:42 > 1:20:44have said to me that they want to be able to communicate
1:20:44 > 1:20:47like this, they want to do these courses as well.
1:20:47 > 1:20:50They want to have a GCSE, so that they can chat away
1:20:50 > 1:20:52with their mates in that sort of way.
1:20:52 > 1:20:55That is a simple thing, and I cannot see huge cost implications,
1:20:55 > 1:20:59so it should be moved on, as we have heard this afternoon.
1:20:59 > 1:21:04Finally, I will touch on people whose hearing has been impaired
1:21:04 > 1:21:06by industrial injuries.
1:21:06 > 1:21:09That has not been mentioned at all in the debate,
1:21:09 > 1:21:11but not because people think it should not be.
1:21:11 > 1:21:16It is just one of those issues.
1:21:16 > 1:21:20People cannot see this type of industrial injury.
1:21:20 > 1:21:22It is not like the industrial injuries that my Honourable
1:21:22 > 1:21:25Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse and I saw
1:21:25 > 1:21:28in our former jobs as firemen.
1:21:28 > 1:21:32There is something very wrong about how we measure
1:21:32 > 1:21:35industrial injuries, and hearing impairment industrial
1:21:35 > 1:21:37injuries in particular.
1:21:37 > 1:21:42So many people who have a hearing impairment do not admit it
1:21:42 > 1:21:46to themselves, their wives and their loved ones,
1:21:46 > 1:21:48even though their wives and loved ones are probably aware
1:21:48 > 1:21:49that there is an issue.
1:21:49 > 1:21:52They certainly do not talk about it to their employer
1:21:52 > 1:21:55or previous employers.
1:21:55 > 1:22:00I can talk about this, because my eardrum is perforated.
1:22:00 > 1:22:04I did not know about that until I started to miss
1:22:04 > 1:22:08conversations that I thought I should be picking up.
1:22:08 > 1:22:10You just do not think there is something wrong.
1:22:10 > 1:22:13However, when I was a Minister at the Ministry of Defence,
1:22:13 > 1:22:16I had to have a medical before I was allowed to go into operational
1:22:16 > 1:22:22fields, and it was obvious that I had a perforated eardrum.
1:22:22 > 1:22:32It was almost certainly from live firing when I was in the armed
1:22:32 > 1:22:34forces, the specialists told me that, although it was
1:22:34 > 1:22:35not picked up then.
1:22:35 > 1:22:37That is not so important to me, but where industrial
1:22:37 > 1:22:39injuries are common, it is massively important
1:22:39 > 1:22:42that there be a level playing field on decibel levels.
1:22:42 > 1:22:46Completely different levels are used for hearing damage in the armed
1:22:46 > 1:22:50forces and what I call civvy street, and that cannot be right.
1:22:50 > 1:22:53We must encourage people to come forward, not so much
1:22:53 > 1:22:56so that they can get compensation, but because, as we heard earlier,
1:22:56 > 1:22:59if we can pick this up earlier, it saves the state and everyone
1:22:59 > 1:23:04a lot of money, and also makes life much better for that person,
1:23:04 > 1:23:08who can start to accept the disability that they have
1:23:08 > 1:23:11and continue to live a happy life.
1:23:14 > 1:23:16When I had the hearing test that identified my audiological
1:23:16 > 1:23:19loss, as the right Honourable
1:23:19 > 1:23:21Gentleman will know, the printout showed
1:23:21 > 1:23:24whether it was down to age or genetics, or whether
1:23:24 > 1:23:27it was industrial.
1:23:27 > 1:23:29Mine was at least partly industrial.
1:23:29 > 1:23:32I was told by my clinicians, "Your hearing loss is above
1:23:32 > 1:23:33the threshold for applying for industrial injury
1:23:33 > 1:23:36compensation."
1:23:36 > 1:23:39I never did, because I had a great job here,
1:23:39 > 1:23:42so I did not have to, and it was not a matter of money.
1:23:42 > 1:23:44I have always felt a bit difficult about saying, "Well,
1:23:44 > 1:23:46I should have gone down as a statistic."
1:23:46 > 1:23:48I am sure that, as the right Honourable
1:23:48 > 1:23:51Gentleman says, there are a lot of us out there who have not
1:23:51 > 1:23:53registered and do not appear in the statistics.
1:23:53 > 1:23:56The base statistics are only of the people who absolutely needed
1:23:56 > 1:24:04to make sure that they registered.
1:24:04 > 1:24:07Thank you very much, not Mr McCabe, but Ms Buck, I did
1:24:07 > 1:24:10a quick double-take.
1:24:10 > 1:24:13My Honourable Friend has hit the nail on the head.
1:24:13 > 1:24:14It is not just about the money.
1:24:14 > 1:24:20Getting people in, whether at pensionable age
1:24:20 > 1:24:25or when they leave an employer or the armed forces, is vital.
1:24:25 > 1:24:30When I left the armed forces, my hearing was not tested.
1:24:30 > 1:24:33It was supposed to have been tested, but it was not, and if anyone can
1:24:33 > 1:24:37find a record of it being tested then, I can take them on about that.
1:24:37 > 1:24:40I am not raising the issue of whether people are entitled
1:24:40 > 1:24:42to compensation-that is someone else's decision-but they are not
1:24:42 > 1:24:45entitled to compensation unless we get them tested.
1:24:45 > 1:24:47If we can get them tested, the specialists
1:24:47 > 1:24:48will know, as my Honourable
1:24:48 > 1:24:55Friend said, the cause of the deafness.
1:24:55 > 1:24:56There are myriad reasons, but industrial damage
1:24:56 > 1:25:04is pretty well defined.
1:25:04 > 1:25:09I am thrilled that there are so many people here on a Thursday
1:25:09 > 1:25:11afternoon, the other Chamber probably has half,
1:25:11 > 1:25:13if not less than half, the amount of people we have here.
1:25:14 > 1:25:15Perhaps my Honourable
1:25:15 > 1:25:18Friend and I might go back to the Backbench Business Committee
1:25:18 > 1:25:21to get a proper debate on the Floor of the House on some
1:25:22 > 1:25:25of the specifics we have discussed.
1:25:25 > 1:25:28If necessary, that should be on Access to Work,
1:25:28 > 1:25:32because that is a life-changer and has been for many people.
1:25:32 > 1:25:35We must not lose that life-changing ability.
1:25:46 > 1:25:49I will sign this comment: "Today, I will talk to you about deafness
1:25:50 > 1:25:55and hearing loss in Scotland."
1:25:55 > 1:25:58I will come back to my poor attempt at signing later.
1:25:58 > 1:26:01I wanted to speak about a number of things, many of which have
1:26:01 > 1:26:02already been mentioned.
1:26:02 > 1:26:05I very much welcome this debate and congratulate my Honourable
1:26:05 > 1:26:06Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
1:26:06 > 1:26:08on bringing it here.
1:26:08 > 1:26:11Indeed, I commend him on the work he has done through the all-party
1:26:11 > 1:26:13parliamentary group on deafness to raise this issue
1:26:13 > 1:26:14across the House.
1:26:14 > 1:26:16There are approximately 1 million people in Scotland
1:26:16 > 1:26:19who suffer hearing loss, and I am one of them.
1:26:19 > 1:26:23About 15 years ago, I found that my hearing was deteriorating,
1:26:23 > 1:26:26and I did not do much about it, I was just very irritating
1:26:26 > 1:26:31to my friends and family, not hearing things.
1:26:31 > 1:26:35Eventually, I was persuaded to get treatment.
1:26:35 > 1:26:45I was diagnosed with degeneration in the inner ear, an inherited trait
1:26:45 > 1:26:50that means that I cannot hear some frequencies, but I can hear others.
1:26:50 > 1:26:54I hear some frequencies at full volume, and others at just 30%
1:26:54 > 1:26:57or 40%, which means I lose a lot of the sense of what
1:26:57 > 1:26:59people are saying to me.
1:26:59 > 1:27:04I am beyond grateful to NHS Lothian and our public health service
1:27:04 > 1:27:07for what it has been able to do for me.
1:27:07 > 1:27:08I wear hearing aids, like my Honourable
1:27:08 > 1:27:13Friend, and the degree of technology and sophistication in these little
1:27:13 > 1:27:16things is quite remarkable.
1:27:16 > 1:27:19There are mini-computers in here that take in all frequencies
1:27:19 > 1:27:22and decide to boost the ones that I am weak on, which means that,
1:27:22 > 1:27:26by and large, I can hear relatively normally.
1:27:26 > 1:27:28I also want to place on record the efforts
1:27:28 > 1:27:32of the House authorities.
1:27:32 > 1:27:34In particular, I find the loop in the Chamber
1:27:34 > 1:27:36very effective indeed.
1:27:36 > 1:27:39Of course, there are still drawbacks, those who, like me,
1:27:39 > 1:27:44wear hearing aids will be aware of this.
1:27:44 > 1:27:46For example, when I am in the Chamber taking part
1:27:46 > 1:27:49in a debate and I have them on the setting for the loop,
1:27:49 > 1:27:51if a colleague sitting beside me says something,
1:27:51 > 1:27:55I do not get it, I have to reprogramme the aid
1:27:55 > 1:27:59and try to find out what they ?were saying-or quite
1:27:59 > 1:28:06often I just nod and pretend I got the gist of what they were saying.
1:28:06 > 1:28:10I also notice that these aids can be irritating to me
1:28:10 > 1:28:13and others in close proximity, because of the feedback
1:28:13 > 1:28:16and whistling sound there is sometimes, but it is worth
1:28:16 > 1:28:20putting up with those minor drawbacks to take advantage
1:28:20 > 1:28:25of this great technology.
1:28:25 > 1:28:28I got these hearing aids on the NHS, and I was very grateful
1:28:28 > 1:28:30indeed to receive them.
1:28:30 > 1:28:34These instruments are state-of-the-art technology that
1:28:34 > 1:28:38match anything available in the private sector.
1:28:38 > 1:28:41In fact, I have friends who, either through inclination or ignorance,
1:28:41 > 1:28:45decided to go private, and went to agencies on the high
1:28:45 > 1:28:47street that retail hearing aids, and their service is far
1:28:47 > 1:28:48inferior to mine.
1:28:48 > 1:28:51Eventually, on my advice, they went to the local audiology
1:28:51 > 1:28:54department and got better treatment.
1:28:54 > 1:28:57That is just part of why I have a particular
1:28:57 > 1:29:00interest in the subject.
1:29:00 > 1:29:02I am of course also mindful that this is probably one
1:29:02 > 1:29:06of the most common disabilities that we as a species suffer.
1:29:06 > 1:29:14More of my constituents probably suffer hearing loss than voted
1:29:14 > 1:29:18for me on 8 June, that is how prevalent it is.
1:29:18 > 1:29:21I want to spend a little time, because others have mentioned it,
1:29:21 > 1:29:25talking about the situation in Scotland, particularly
1:29:25 > 1:29:32with regard to BSL.
1:29:32 > 1:29:35Any BSL users watching what I did at the beginning
1:29:35 > 1:29:39will understand that I cannot sign, but I tried to learn that
1:29:39 > 1:29:42opening line because I know that, as time goes on,
1:29:42 > 1:29:45I will want to learn BSL, as it will be something that I rely
1:29:45 > 1:29:49on in later years and is therefore important to me, but it is important
1:29:49 > 1:29:51to me in the here and now because of so many people
1:29:51 > 1:29:54for whom BSL is a vital means of communication.
1:29:54 > 1:30:04It has already been mentioned that in 2015 the Scottish Parliament
1:30:05 > 1:30:07passed the British Sign Language Scotland Act.
1:30:07 > 1:30:09A Labour MSP decided to bring it to Parliament.
1:30:09 > 1:30:11The Act was passed unanimously, with all five parties
1:30:12 > 1:30:19in full agreement.
1:30:19 > 1:30:22A key thing that the Act did was launch a process to establish
1:30:22 > 1:30:27a national action plan to promote and develop BSL in Scotland,
1:30:27 > 1:30:30with the simple objective of making Scotland the best place in the world
1:30:30 > 1:30:40to be a BSL user and to live, work and play.
1:30:40 > 1:30:43I say that not to blow Scotland's trumpet, although it is part
1:30:43 > 1:30:46of my brief to do that, and not to say that Scotland
1:30:46 > 1:30:49is better than the rest of the UK, but simply to say that if people
1:30:49 > 1:30:52took the time and sat down to talk about these
1:30:52 > 1:30:54things and draw up a plan, they would be surprised
1:30:54 > 1:30:57at how much can be done.
1:30:57 > 1:31:01I ask the Minister and the Government to look
1:31:01 > 1:31:05at the situation as it is developing in Scotland and perhaps see how much
1:31:05 > 1:31:08of that could be replicated UK-wide.
1:31:08 > 1:31:12The national plan was published in September.
1:31:12 > 1:31:15It is quite detailed and has 70 targets.
1:31:15 > 1:31:18I will not go into them all, it is available
1:31:18 > 1:31:23on the Scottish Government website.
1:31:23 > 1:31:27The process was really important.
1:31:27 > 1:31:33Once time is provided in a Parliament for a discussion
1:31:33 > 1:31:36that leads to legislation, because of the statutory force
1:31:36 > 1:31:40of the discussions taking place, things that people had never thought
1:31:40 > 1:31:43about begin to go on the agenda and come out of the woodwork.
1:31:43 > 1:31:46It is a stimulus to all manner of people in civic society
1:31:46 > 1:31:48and in Government agencies in thinking about how they can
1:31:49 > 1:31:52improve the situation.
1:31:52 > 1:31:54The plan of action has 70 detailed targets set
1:31:54 > 1:31:56for the next three years.
1:31:56 > 1:32:01I will give Members a flavour of them.
1:32:01 > 1:32:04The first is to look at how we can build into the 2021 census
1:32:04 > 1:32:07a question or series of questions that identify in ?detail
1:32:07 > 1:32:11the number of BSL users taking part in the census,
1:32:11 > 1:32:16so that we have the data on which to plan in future.
1:32:16 > 1:32:18Target ten talks about improving access to early years services,
1:32:18 > 1:32:27so that deaf children can access them.
1:32:27 > 1:32:30Target 16 is about removing the barriers that prevent BSL users
1:32:30 > 1:32:33from becoming teachers, so that they can not only teach
1:32:33 > 1:32:37in the medium of BSL, but teach hearing kids through interpretation.
1:32:37 > 1:32:42Target 25 is about targets for colleges and universities.
1:32:42 > 1:32:47Importantly, the next target makes loans available for BSL students.
1:32:47 > 1:32:50I am pleased to say that just this week the Scottish Government
1:32:50 > 1:32:52announced that loans will be available for students in Scotland
1:32:52 > 1:32:55to study throughout the UK if the course is not available
1:32:55 > 1:32:57in Scotland, so we now have a situation in which we can
1:32:57 > 1:33:02support BSL users who are students in Scotland, but who are
1:33:02 > 1:33:07able to go on courses in England and Wales as well.
1:33:07 > 1:33:10Target 39 is about making sure that all our health screening
1:33:10 > 1:33:12and immunisation programmes have the medium of BSL built
1:33:12 > 1:33:21into them, so that BSL users have full access.
1:33:21 > 1:33:24Target 48 is about sport, and 53 is about placing obligations
1:33:24 > 1:33:27on transport and our rail and bus providers to make sure
1:33:27 > 1:33:30they understand the needs of BSL users and have it available
1:33:30 > 1:33:34as a means of communication.
1:33:34 > 1:33:38Target 57 is about access to the arts.
1:33:38 > 1:33:41Target 63 is about making sure that our emergency services
1:33:41 > 1:33:44understand the needs of BSL users and have a facility to be able
1:33:44 > 1:33:51to communicate with them.
1:33:51 > 1:33:54Finally, the last one I picked out is the target to improve electoral
1:33:54 > 1:33:55participation and voting in the political
1:33:55 > 1:34:01process by BSL users.
1:34:01 > 1:34:04There is a series of very good targets, but probably the best thing
1:34:04 > 1:34:07about them is the way in which BSL users themselves have bought
1:34:07 > 1:34:14into the process and have become part of developing the action plan.
1:34:14 > 1:34:17A full £1.3 million has been provided to various deaf voluntary
1:34:17 > 1:34:18organisations to monitor how the targets develop
1:34:18 > 1:34:26and are implemented.
1:34:26 > 1:34:30In 2020 the intention is to come back with a full Government review
1:34:30 > 1:34:37across all agencies to make sure we look at the next stage.
1:34:37 > 1:34:39These are practical, achievable steps that can be taken,
1:34:39 > 1:34:42many of which do not involve a lot of money.
1:34:42 > 1:34:43They can be done within existing budgets.
1:34:43 > 1:34:48They require changes in attitudes.
1:34:48 > 1:34:50We cannot overestimate the importance of having a statutory
1:34:50 > 1:34:52framework and setting all these things down as targets
1:34:52 > 1:34:58for Government agencies.
1:34:58 > 1:35:03There is always pressure on a legislative programme,
1:35:03 > 1:35:07but a UK BSL Act that would do some of those things would not take a lot
1:35:07 > 1:35:09of parliamentary time.
1:35:09 > 1:35:11It need not be a very complicated Bill.
1:35:11 > 1:35:18It could be focused.
1:35:18 > 1:35:21Even if we have to give up three hours of a Back-Bench debate or two
1:35:21 > 1:35:24to get the measure through, it would be worth doing.
1:35:24 > 1:35:26I am sure that if the Government were to take the initiative,
1:35:26 > 1:35:31they would find all parties commending them.
1:35:31 > 1:35:35Several people have mentioned Access to Work, but it is important
1:35:35 > 1:35:44to stress that claimants who had the benefit of the programme
1:35:44 > 1:35:48and were not limited until now, the cap applied
1:35:48 > 1:35:49to new claimants, will be
1:35:49 > 1:35:54subject to the cap as well.
1:35:54 > 1:35:57That will mean that some people who are in employment will have
1:35:57 > 1:35:59to reduce or leave their employment.
1:35:59 > 1:36:00That is the truth of the matter.
1:36:00 > 1:36:03It might not be a great number of people, but that
1:36:03 > 1:36:04is what will happen.
1:36:04 > 1:36:07I note that the DWP says that only about 267 people will be
1:36:07 > 1:36:09affected by the cap.
1:36:09 > 1:36:11That is not a great number, but it really looks like penny-pinching
1:36:11 > 1:36:20when we compare it to the scale of the DWP budget.
1:36:20 > 1:36:22The early statistics said that for every £1
1:36:22 > 1:36:24spent on Access to Work, the Treasury got a cost-benefit
1:36:24 > 1:36:34analysis plus of £1.34 or £1.50.
1:36:41 > 1:36:43The early statistics said that for every £1
1:36:43 > 1:36:45spent on Access to Work, the Treasury got a cost-benefit
1:36:45 > 1:36:47analysis plus of £1.34 or £1.50.
1:36:47 > 1:36:49A lot of the people the Honourable
1:36:49 > 1:36:50Gentleman describes are senior professionals, chief
1:36:50 > 1:36:53executives and so on, who will be on a 40% rate of tax,
1:36:53 > 1:36:56so it is an investment that will give the Treasury more money
1:36:56 > 1:36:58back than the basic rate of tax does.
1:36:58 > 1:36:59I could not agree more.
1:36:59 > 1:37:02If somebody is in work and gets support through the scheme,
1:37:02 > 1:37:05not only are they earning money and paying tax, but the people
1:37:05 > 1:37:07who support them earn money and pay tax as well.
1:37:07 > 1:37:10There are all sorts of ways in which this makes sense.
1:37:10 > 1:37:14My key point is that given the small number of people affected,
1:37:14 > 1:37:16is the cap really worth it?
1:37:16 > 1:37:19Would it not be better to not have the cap,
1:37:19 > 1:37:23and assess the situation later?
1:37:23 > 1:37:27It is expensive because of the nature of the support that
1:37:27 > 1:37:29people need in this part of the programme if they are
1:37:29 > 1:37:35deaf and a BSL user.
1:37:35 > 1:37:37It is expensive because that support is undertaken by hard-working
1:37:37 > 1:37:39professional people such as the signers here today,
1:37:39 > 1:37:45who have trained very hard for the job that they do.
1:37:45 > 1:37:47Perhaps in the future developments in audio technology and computer
1:37:47 > 1:37:50graphics will be such that we will get an app
1:37:50 > 1:37:53on our smartphone that will turn speech into sign in a way that
1:37:53 > 1:37:54works, but who knows?
1:37:54 > 1:37:55That is for the future.
1:37:55 > 1:37:58For now, we need professional human beings to be able
1:37:58 > 1:38:01to provide the service.
1:38:01 > 1:38:03We should accept as a society that for the limited
1:38:03 > 1:38:10number of people affected, the money is a price worth paying.
1:38:10 > 1:38:13We could perhaps look at other ways, rather than the cap and restricting
1:38:13 > 1:38:20the services provided, to reduce costs.
1:38:20 > 1:38:23I want to finish by talking about Parliament and some
1:38:23 > 1:38:27of the things that we might be able to do here.
1:38:27 > 1:38:30It is wonderful that we have our proceedings signed today.
1:38:30 > 1:38:37I do not know why we do not have a signer standing
1:38:37 > 1:38:39beside the Speaker's Chair and filmed for all the proceedings
1:38:39 > 1:38:40in our Parliament.
1:38:40 > 1:38:43When we think of the amount of money we spend in this place,
1:38:43 > 1:38:47the number of staff that we have, the amount we spend on maintenance
1:38:47 > 1:38:50and the amount we are going to spend on refurbishment, it is not such
1:38:50 > 1:38:53a big price to make sure that during the 30 hours a week
1:38:53 > 1:38:56or whatever when the Chamber is in operation and debating,
1:38:56 > 1:38:59there is a signer there, signing for the people
1:38:59 > 1:39:02in the Chamber, and, more importantly, for the people
1:39:02 > 1:39:08who watch live online or wish to check back on proceedings.
1:39:08 > 1:39:15Another thing that we could do has to do with the scheme in Parliament,
1:39:15 > 1:39:17which Members may be aware of, I have not taken
1:39:17 > 1:39:19advantage of it yet,
1:39:19 > 1:39:22but I am sure others have, to get tuition in a foreign language.
1:39:22 > 1:39:24Why do not we add BSL to that?
1:39:24 > 1:39:27Why does not each MP have an opportunity to learn that
1:39:27 > 1:39:29as part of our professional development as Members
1:39:29 > 1:39:32of Parliament, so that we are better able to communicate with our
1:39:32 > 1:39:38constituents, and more aware of the technological needs?
1:39:38 > 1:39:41My central point, which I will stress as I end,
1:39:41 > 1:39:43is that it is impossible to overestimate the importance
1:39:43 > 1:39:46of a legislative framework, because of the sense of purpose it
1:39:46 > 1:39:47creates for civil society and statutory agencies,
1:39:47 > 1:39:50and the sense of worth, I suppose, that it gives to people
1:39:50 > 1:40:00who are looking to us to respond to their needs.
1:40:04 > 1:40:08Teresa Pearce.
1:40:08 > 1:40:15It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Buck.
1:40:15 > 1:40:16I too express gratitude to
1:40:16 > 1:40:18the Member for Poplar and Limehouse,
1:40:18 > 1:40:21not just for obtaining the ?debate, but for the work he has done
1:40:21 > 1:40:24on deafness and hearing loss for many years, he is a great
1:40:24 > 1:40:25champion of the cause.
1:40:25 > 1:40:27I also want to mention the Honourable
1:40:27 > 1:40:28Member for Rochester and Strood,
1:40:28 > 1:40:30who shared her personal story.
1:40:30 > 1:40:33I was struck by what she said about her mother's isolation,
1:40:33 > 1:40:43because my late mother-in-law was one of the most sociable people
1:40:46 > 1:40:48anyone could meet, show her a piano and she would
1:40:48 > 1:40:50play for two hours, but
1:40:50 > 1:40:52then she lost her hearing, and with that, she lost her social
1:40:52 > 1:40:54circle and became incredibly lonely.
1:40:54 > 1:40:56We hear a lot about elderly people being lonely,
1:40:56 > 1:40:59and I wonder how much hearing loss has to do with that.
1:40:59 > 1:41:02The debate is very broad, as broad as the challenges that people living
1:41:02 > 1:41:05with deafness face, so I shall confine my remarks to
1:41:05 > 1:41:08two areas - the first of which is cochlear implants.
1:41:08 > 1:41:10A constituency case has been brought to me by several constituents,
1:41:10 > 1:41:15including the grandmother of Jacob, who needs a cochlear implant.
1:41:15 > 1:41:20He is profoundly deaf in the right ear and severely deaf in the left,
1:41:20 > 1:41:27he is four years old.
1:41:27 > 1:41:29He has been tested by St Thomas' Hospital cochlear
1:41:29 > 1:41:30implant team, who supported
1:41:30 > 1:41:33the case for an implant, but the NHS has turned him down.
1:41:33 > 1:41:35The family have been told he can have the implant
1:41:35 > 1:41:36only if they can raise £44,000.
1:41:36 > 1:41:39My constituents are not the most affluent in the country,
1:41:39 > 1:41:43but they are truly wonderful, and this will not be
1:41:43 > 1:41:47the first time they have crowd-funded help for someone.
1:41:47 > 1:41:50Last year they helped a young mother to get a second
1:41:50 > 1:41:55stem cell transplant.
1:41:55 > 1:42:05Their campaign, "Help Jacob Hear", has run boot sales, raffles
1:42:05 > 1:42:07and fetes and they've raised nearly all the money, which is great
1:42:07 > 1:42:11news, but it raises the question what the NHS is for if it is not
1:42:11 > 1:42:12to help children such as Jacob.
1:42:12 > 1:42:15The spending of taxpayers' money at this point would potentially be
1:42:15 > 1:42:20handsomely repaid over the lifetime of that young boy.
1:42:20 > 1:42:23It might be expensive, but what is the financial and social
1:42:23 > 1:42:27expense of not funding it?
1:42:27 > 1:42:30The second area I wanted to focus on is Access to Work.
1:42:30 > 1:42:32Quite a number of my constituents are British Sign Language
1:42:32 > 1:42:42interpreters, and many of them have written to me.
1:42:42 > 1:42:45One, Joanne, works regularly with people who are helped by Access
1:42:45 > 1:42:49to Work to participate equally and fully at work.
1:42:49 > 1:42:52In 2015 the DWP, as has been mentioned, imposed a cap
1:42:52 > 1:42:58on Access to Work awards,
1:42:58 > 1:42:59and Joanna is worried
1:42:59 > 1:43:02that the cap will act as a glass ceiling on deaf colleagues'
1:43:02 > 1:43:03and friends' career aspirations.
1:43:03 > 1:43:06Those with hearing loss will not be able to apply for promotions or look
1:43:06 > 1:43:09to develop their career, because the Access to Work support
1:43:09 > 1:43:10will not be sufficient.
1:43:10 > 1:43:13That means that they will be able to book interpreters for perhaps
1:43:13 > 1:43:14only three days a week.
1:43:14 > 1:43:16What will happen on the other two days?
1:43:16 > 1:43:18Deaf professionals are left at a disadvantage, experiencing
1:43:18 > 1:43:21stress and frustration as it leads to their being removed
1:43:21 > 1:43:22from viable career paths.
1:43:22 > 1:43:24The consequences can be reduction of their working hours
1:43:24 > 1:43:26and in some cases complete removal from employment.
1:43:26 > 1:43:29There are self-employed deaf professionals in the arts who have
1:43:29 > 1:43:33not been able to develop projects, because of lack of access.
1:43:33 > 1:43:37Research done by the group DeafATW with people whose awards have been
1:43:37 > 1:43:41capped already or are due to be capped next year, shows a negative
1:43:41 > 1:43:43impact on careers and aspiration.
1:43:43 > 1:43:46Especially affected are deaf people who are in or who aspire
1:43:46 > 1:43:50to professional, managerial or leadership roles,
1:43:50 > 1:43:53or those who are self-employed and who run their own business.
1:43:53 > 1:43:56Another of my constituents, Andrew, is deaf.
1:43:56 > 1:43:59He uses British Sign Language and works as a senior team
1:43:59 > 1:44:02administrator with Surrey County Council.
1:44:02 > 1:44:06Access to ?Work pays for the interpreters and note-taking
1:44:06 > 1:44:08that make it possible for him to communicate with colleagues,
1:44:08 > 1:44:11customers and others, and help him to participate more
1:44:11 > 1:44:14fully and equally at work, even though it does not stretch
1:44:14 > 1:44:17to providing assistance at longer meetings where it is impossible
1:44:17 > 1:44:22to focus on the interpreter and to take notes at the same time.
1:44:22 > 1:44:24That said, it is likely that the support that Andrew
1:44:24 > 1:44:27gets via Access to Work, which we all agree is a fantastic
1:44:27 > 1:44:31system, is much more than what would be seen
1:44:31 > 1:44:33as a reasonable adjustment for his employer to make.
1:44:33 > 1:44:37In cases such as his, Access to Work has revolutionised
1:44:37 > 1:44:40the career opportunities for people like Andrew, and shattered the glass
1:44:40 > 1:44:46ceiling that previously often limited people to doing manual jobs.
1:44:46 > 1:44:49It has ensured progression for deaf people that is based on talent,
1:44:49 > 1:44:52which is as things should be.
1:44:52 > 1:44:55There are now deaf chief executives, deaf intermediaries working
1:44:55 > 1:44:58at the Ministry of Justice, deaf theatre directors,
1:44:58 > 1:45:01deaf social workers and a deaf senior team administrator
1:45:01 > 1:45:03at Surrey County Council.
1:45:03 > 1:45:10I am concerned that a new policy will undo that good work.
1:45:10 > 1:45:13In September, DeafATW ran a survey among deaf people
1:45:13 > 1:45:14about Access to Work.
1:45:14 > 1:45:18Among those who will be subject to the Access to Work cap from 2018,
1:45:18 > 1:45:22nearly half said they would not apply for promotion in future,
1:45:22 > 1:45:25because they were worried that in a new job they would not have
1:45:25 > 1:45:28enough communication support as a result of the cap.
1:45:28 > 1:45:30For the same reason, a fifth said that they had already
1:45:30 > 1:45:33had opportunities to apply for promotion, but had not done so.
1:45:33 > 1:45:36Nearly half said that they would stay with their current employer
1:45:36 > 1:45:37as long as possible, because they were worried
1:45:37 > 1:45:41about what a new employer might think about the effect of the cap
1:45:41 > 1:45:44on their ability to do their job.
1:45:44 > 1:45:46When talking about growth we hear a lot about
1:45:46 > 1:45:49the "productivity puzzle".
1:45:49 > 1:45:52It is not much of a puzzle really if we are limiting where people's
1:45:52 > 1:45:58talent can take them with such a cut.
1:45:58 > 1:46:01In about a third of cases, the employer was either taking
1:46:01 > 1:46:04or thinking about taking action to check whether the individual
1:46:04 > 1:46:06could still do their job properly.
1:46:06 > 1:46:09Deaf people fear that having a capped award means
1:46:09 > 1:46:11that they will not be able to do their job properly,
1:46:11 > 1:46:14and employers are concerned about it too.
1:46:14 > 1:46:17As a consequence, deaf people, whether they are already subject
1:46:17 > 1:46:20to a cap, are expecting to be subject to one in 2018,
1:46:20 > 1:46:22or are without a cap in their current work,
1:46:22 > 1:46:24have said that they are already avoiding applying to work
1:46:24 > 1:46:26in professional, managerial and senior roles.
1:46:26 > 1:46:34In 2015, the Government were clear that a key challenge
1:46:34 > 1:46:37in administering Access to Work was managing a demand-led programme
1:46:37 > 1:46:40within a defined budget.
1:46:40 > 1:46:42They said "We must achieve a balance between meeting customer need
1:46:42 > 1:46:47and achieving value for money for the taxpayer.
1:46:47 > 1:46:50It has been a long-standing aspiration of the programme
1:46:50 > 1:46:54to support more disabled people into work, so we must address
1:46:54 > 1:46:57the challenge of supporting this growth whilst keeping Access
1:46:57 > 1:46:59to Work affordable".
1:46:59 > 1:47:01I would say that it is money well spent.
1:47:01 > 1:47:04I could not find more recent figures, but the Sayce report
1:47:04 > 1:47:07in 2011 said that for every pound spent £1.48 came back
1:47:07 > 1:47:11to the Treasury.
1:47:11 > 1:47:15That is clearly a case of spending to save.
1:47:15 > 1:47:20The Minister may be aware that in July 2015 the Government
1:47:20 > 1:47:23responded to the Work and Pensions Committee report
1:47:23 > 1:47:27entitled "Improving Access to Work for disabled people".
1:47:27 > 1:47:31The report was scathing about the statistics, stating:?
1:47:31 > 1:47:35"This lack of transparency is unacceptable.
1:47:35 > 1:47:37We recommend that DWP change its approach to Access
1:47:37 > 1:47:41to Work statistics and that, as a minimum, it regularly publish
1:47:41 > 1:47:46the following information: an indicative annual budget, annual
1:47:46 > 1:47:51expenditure outturns, broken down by support element
1:47:51 > 1:47:53and impairment type (including autism spectrum disorders),
1:47:53 > 1:47:56the number of service users by size of employer, and employers'
1:47:56 > 1:47:57mandatory and voluntary financial contributions,
1:47:57 > 1:48:01broken down by size of employer."
1:48:01 > 1:48:03In their response, the Government
1:48:03 > 1:48:07admitted that there was work to do to meet those requirements.
1:48:07 > 1:48:11Will the Minister now, or perhaps by writing to me,
1:48:11 > 1:48:15update us on progress with the Access to Work statistics?
1:48:15 > 1:48:18The previous Minister said that there were a lot
1:48:18 > 1:48:20of statistics available, so I should be pleased to know
1:48:20 > 1:48:27what progress has been made in supplying the information.
1:48:27 > 1:48:29Will the Minister also provide figures to show the trend
1:48:29 > 1:48:33in the number of deaf people supported by Access to Work
1:48:33 > 1:48:40prior to the introduction of the cap, and afterwards?
1:48:40 > 1:48:43The Select Committee also highlighted a particularly strong
1:48:43 > 1:48:46case for the DWP to improve the accessibility of its
1:48:46 > 1:48:51disability-related services, recommending that it introduce
1:48:51 > 1:48:53a video relay system to enable deaf BSL users to contact
1:48:53 > 1:48:56the Department more easily.
1:48:56 > 1:48:59Has there been any progress on that?
1:48:59 > 1:49:04By way of a reminder, I noticed when I arrived
1:49:04 > 1:49:07that there is a signer for the debate, and I recalled that
1:49:07 > 1:49:12when the Work and Pensions Committee undertook a review of Access to Work
1:49:12 > 1:49:18in 2015, we had a sitting when deaf people came to give evidence,
1:49:18 > 1:49:21and there were deaf people in the Public Gallery, and no one
1:49:21 > 1:49:22had thought to book a signer.
1:49:22 > 1:49:25Luckily, one of my constituents had come to watch.
1:49:25 > 1:49:29He was a qualified signer, and he took over and helped us.
1:49:29 > 1:49:33In this place, sometimes we do things very well
1:49:33 > 1:49:36and sometimes we overlook things.
1:49:36 > 1:49:41If a Work and Pensions Committee looking into accessibility for deaf
1:49:41 > 1:49:45people did not think to have a signer, it goes to show
1:49:45 > 1:49:48that we must do better on this.
1:49:48 > 1:49:51Today's debate is a step forward.
1:49:55 > 1:49:58It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Buck.
1:49:58 > 1:50:04I am sure most of us know many people who are affected to some
1:50:04 > 1:50:06degree by hearing loss, and we know the impact
1:50:06 > 1:50:09it has on their lives.
1:50:09 > 1:50:13In my own case, both my parents were affected.
1:50:13 > 1:50:16My dad, who died a couple of years ago, had industrial deafness caused
1:50:16 > 1:50:20by his work in a factory.
1:50:20 > 1:50:25The effects of that lasted a long time.
1:50:25 > 1:50:33I welcome the comments from the right Honourable
1:50:33 > 1:50:35Member for Hemel Hempstead, recognising
1:50:35 > 1:50:37the industrial injuries aspect.
1:50:37 > 1:50:38the industrial injuries aspect.
1:50:38 > 1:50:40My mum resisted hearing aids for many years,
1:50:40 > 1:50:43but the difference they made to her life when she
1:50:43 > 1:50:47finally gave in was, and continues to be, immense.
1:50:47 > 1:50:50It is immense to us as well, of course.
1:50:50 > 1:50:53That is why I was so concerned to hear from Action on Hearing Loss,
1:50:53 > 1:50:56which I met recently, that some clinical commissioning
1:50:56 > 1:51:00groups are proposing restrictions on the prescription of hearing aids
1:51:00 > 1:51:03to people with mild and moderate hearing loss.
1:51:03 > 1:51:06Indeed, some have already done so, including North Staffordshire CCG,
1:51:06 > 1:51:08which was referred to earlier.
1:51:08 > 1:51:12Not only do hearing aids make a real difference to people with mild
1:51:12 > 1:51:15and moderate hearing loss, but research shows that they reduce
1:51:15 > 1:51:18social isolation and depression.
1:51:18 > 1:51:21New evidence also suggests they can reduce the risk of developing
1:51:21 > 1:51:23dementia, a study in The Lancet recognised hearing loss
1:51:23 > 1:51:28as potentially the largest modifiable risk factor for dementia.
1:51:29 > 1:51:32We can do something about it.
1:51:32 > 1:51:35I hope the Minister will make clear that hearing aids must be provided
1:51:35 > 1:51:42where they are needed.? As my honourable friend
1:51:42 > 1:51:44the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
1:51:44 > 1:51:50has clearly set out, the cash limit on the Access to Work
1:51:50 > 1:51:52scheme has also had a significant impact on many people with hearing
1:51:52 > 1:51:55loss, limiting their ability to do their job properly,
1:51:55 > 1:51:57or in some cases meaning that they might not be offered jobs
1:51:57 > 1:51:59because of the shortfall in financial support.
1:51:59 > 1:52:03I ask the Government to look again at removing or raising the cap.
1:52:04 > 1:52:08I also echo my honourable friend
1:52:08 > 1:52:10call for further work on implementation of the action
1:52:10 > 1:52:11plan on hearing loss.
1:52:11 > 1:52:14As he described, some good work has been done already,
1:52:14 > 1:52:17but I ask the Minister to ensure that the Government step up
1:52:17 > 1:52:21their work on implementing the plan.
1:52:21 > 1:52:26In the summer, I met Erin, a young woman campaigning with
1:52:26 > 1:52:31the National Deaf Children's Society to have British Sign Language
1:52:31 > 1:52:34recognised as a GCSE and made available to all students.
1:52:34 > 1:52:38I join Erin, and the Honourable
1:52:38 > 1:52:40Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), in calling for BSL
1:52:40 > 1:52:45to be a GCSE subject.
1:52:51 > 1:52:54It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Ms Buck.
1:52:54 > 1:53:00I thank my honourable friend
1:53:00 > 1:53:01the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
1:53:01 > 1:53:03for securing this debate.
1:53:03 > 1:53:05This is one of those occasions when the only suitable ministerial
1:53:05 > 1:53:11and departmental response to the words spoken in the debate
1:53:11 > 1:53:18is urgent action to review, reconsider and change course.
1:53:18 > 1:53:22That means helping deaf people, working across Government
1:53:22 > 1:53:25instead of in silos, and putting deaf people
1:53:25 > 1:53:30at the centre of the decision-making process.
1:53:30 > 1:53:34I include an important area that people have talked about quite a lot
1:53:34 > 1:53:36today, the Department for Work and Pensions,
1:53:36 > 1:53:42where Access to Work needs to be promoted, not capped.
1:53:42 > 1:53:49Unfortunately, that cap will affect so many of our deaf and hard
1:53:49 > 1:53:53of hearing constituents when we come to the end of the grace
1:53:53 > 1:53:57period in April 2018.
1:53:57 > 1:54:01I am the eldest child of deaf parents, and I was their voice
1:54:01 > 1:54:05and ears from a very young age.
1:54:05 > 1:54:10That was invaluable to them, enabling them to be easily heard
1:54:10 > 1:54:14and understood in a hearing world.
1:54:14 > 1:54:20My dad was born deaf and my mum became deaf at four years of age.
1:54:20 > 1:54:25I say that I was kidnapped by the deaf community at birth,
1:54:25 > 1:54:30because my culture, language and community are theirs.
1:54:30 > 1:54:33That poses me some difficulties on occasion, because I can be very
1:54:33 > 1:54:43straightforward in the way I deal with matters.
1:54:44 > 1:54:46My first language is BSL, not Sign Supported English, most
1:54:46 > 1:54:49people think that is BSL, but it is not.
1:54:49 > 1:54:55I was tempted to sign my whole speech.
1:54:55 > 1:55:01I was going to do that and have the interpreters voice
1:55:01 > 1:55:05over my comments for my colleagues, to give everybody a feel for how
1:55:05 > 1:55:09it is not to be able to communicate directly-not for a minute,
1:55:09 > 1:55:12not for a sentence, but for five minutes or however long it takes me
1:55:12 > 1:55:15to finish this speech.
1:55:15 > 1:55:18Not to be able to communicate directly with the person
1:55:18 > 1:55:23we are talking to is really, really strange and difficult.
1:55:23 > 1:55:28Deaf people feel and experience that every single minute of their lives.
1:55:28 > 1:55:34My experiences and the communication difficulties I saw led me,
1:55:34 > 1:55:38when I was Lord Mayor, to provide every deaf person
1:55:38 > 1:55:41in Liverpool with a minicom.
1:55:41 > 1:55:44We paid for them by getting children in schools
1:55:44 > 1:55:47to learn the deaf alphabet.
1:55:47 > 1:55:51They saw it as a secret language and really enjoyed it,
1:55:51 > 1:55:55and I got minicoms for everybody who was deaf in Liverpool.
1:55:55 > 1:55:57Some might ask why that was so important.
1:55:57 > 1:56:01We talk about isolation, but even though I thought,
1:56:01 > 1:56:07as a product of that environment, that I ?understood it,
1:56:07 > 1:56:12I came home with a minicom for my dad and gave it to him.
1:56:12 > 1:56:22He looked at it and was so happy, and then he took it and pressed
1:56:22 > 1:56:23"Nine...nine.."
1:56:23 > 1:56:26I said, "Whoa!"
1:56:26 > 1:56:27And he said,
1:56:27 > 1:56:28"Who else can I call?
1:56:28 > 1:56:30Nobody else has got one, only the emergency services
1:56:30 > 1:56:31and the doctor."
1:56:31 > 1:56:33I thought, "Right, I get the message: every
1:56:33 > 1:56:35deaf person in Liverpool needs one."
1:56:35 > 1:56:37That made me realise that I needed
1:56:37 > 1:56:41to get on with it and get everybody a minicom.
1:56:41 > 1:56:46Mobile phones have improved the situation, but as the Honourable
1:56:46 > 1:56:48Member for Milton Keynes South has outlined,
1:56:48 > 1:56:49we are not progressing with transmission
1:56:49 > 1:56:52services as we should.
1:56:52 > 1:56:55I have known Chris Jones for many years, and it is a really important
1:56:55 > 1:56:58thing, but the agenda is so large that we need Ministers
1:56:58 > 1:57:04across Government to start tackling it quickly.
1:57:04 > 1:57:06Being able to communicate is fundamental to someone
1:57:06 > 1:57:11doing their job and doing a good job.
1:57:11 > 1:57:16The evidence is clear that Access to Work is a system that
1:57:16 > 1:57:19enables deaf people, particularly those who use
1:57:19 > 1:57:23BSL, to use their own voices in the workplace,
1:57:23 > 1:57:29with the communication support they need.
1:57:29 > 1:57:35When I think about it, I am probably one of the first examples.
1:57:35 > 1:57:45My dad was a plasterer and he was so good-I genuinely mean
1:57:45 > 1:57:50that, that directors of building companies,
1:57:50 > 1:57:53since they could not phone him, used to come to my house
1:57:53 > 1:57:55and sit down around the table.
1:57:55 > 1:57:59As a child, from the age of eight or nine onwards,
1:57:59 > 1:58:02I used to sit on a Friday night and instead of all the millions
1:58:02 > 1:58:05of bits of paper going back and forth, I was drafted in to be
1:58:05 > 1:58:07the person from Access to Work.
1:58:07 > 1:58:08My dad did really well.
1:58:08 > 1:58:10He kept getting more and more money.
1:58:10 > 1:58:16They wanted him, the prices went up, and I did that every few months.
1:58:16 > 1:58:19To me, the evidence is clear: the cap does not simply hinder deaf
1:58:19 > 1:58:22people's ability to do their jobs, but will cause them to turn down
1:58:22 > 1:58:23employment offers and promotions.
1:58:23 > 1:58:26It might have meant that my dad did not get such a good deal
1:58:26 > 1:58:27on his next contract.
1:58:27 > 1:58:33It leaves self-employed people in a precarious position,
1:58:33 > 1:58:35where the small profits they have worked hard to earn go toward
1:58:35 > 1:58:42expensive interpretation costs.
1:58:42 > 1:58:46That is absolutely not a cost-effective way to work.
1:58:46 > 1:58:49The UK Council on Deafness found that nearly half of those whose
1:58:49 > 1:58:52income will be capped in April said that they would not even apply
1:58:52 > 1:58:57for promotion in future because they worried
1:58:57 > 1:59:02that they would not receive enough communication support.
1:59:02 > 1:59:04That presents barriers to those aspiring to careers in professional,
1:59:04 > 1:59:05managerial and senior roles.
1:59:05 > 1:59:11I have a friend who was the headteacher of a deaf school.
1:59:11 > 1:59:16Without support, how will that happen in the future?
1:59:16 > 1:59:18We need to allow deaf people to progress as far
1:59:18 > 1:59:19as their talent allows.
1:59:19 > 1:59:24I have spoken to many other deaf people in lower roles
1:59:24 > 1:59:31but who aspire to do better.
1:59:31 > 1:59:34They have stopped looking forward and now live every day
1:59:34 > 1:59:38in fear that they may lose the job they have.
1:59:38 > 1:59:40Every day is a challenge, especially if they lose that support
1:59:40 > 1:59:44for two days a week.
1:59:44 > 1:59:47We must all be clear that deafness is not a limiting
1:59:47 > 1:59:52learning disability.
1:59:52 > 1:59:56There is no reason why deaf people cannot secure
1:59:56 > 1:59:58employment in senior roles, so long as Government
1:59:58 > 2:00:04decisions do not dampen down the support that they require.
2:00:04 > 2:00:09Central Government just cannot sit back in the hope that employers
2:00:09 > 2:00:12and the self-employed will simply make up that two-day deficit
2:00:12 > 2:00:16in support costs that the cap is estimated to impose,
2:00:16 > 2:00:19especially when employers are already saying that they are not
2:00:19 > 2:00:20confident about their businesses employing a person
2:00:20 > 2:00:27with a hearing loss.
2:00:27 > 2:00:33We simply cannot waste huge swathes of talent.
2:00:33 > 2:00:36I know ?that, because my dad, who was born deaf, was probably
2:00:36 > 2:00:45one of the greatest men I have ever known.
2:00:45 > 2:00:50He was fantastically clever, and he was deaf, but that did not
2:00:50 > 2:00:58prevent him from doing anything and we should not allow it to.
2:00:58 > 2:01:00Sorry.
2:01:00 > 2:01:03Does the Minister accept that the cap reimposes limits
2:01:03 > 2:01:07on the ambitions and financial security of deaf people,
2:01:07 > 2:01:10and leaves the next generation without the belief or ability
2:01:10 > 2:01:13to succeed in a 21st century workplace?
2:01:13 > 2:01:19They can.
2:01:19 > 2:01:28My dad did it.
2:01:28 > 2:01:30He has died now, he was 91, but he did it before,
2:01:31 > 2:01:32he was a trailblazer.
2:01:32 > 2:01:33Do not stop the new trailblazers.
2:01:33 > 2:01:34Help them to forge ahead.
2:01:34 > 2:01:37It is also vital that the Minister recognises that, outside this place,
2:01:37 > 2:01:39the majority of British citizens and employers lack awareness
2:01:39 > 2:01:40of Access to Work.
2:01:40 > 2:01:43That really helps to explain why a recent labour force survey found
2:01:43 > 2:01:46that 30% of working-age people who identify themselves as having
2:01:46 > 2:01:48a hearing loss are not employed, I actually believe the proportion
2:01:48 > 2:01:58is higher than that.
2:01:59 > 2:02:02Does the Minister recognise the need for a single gateway that
2:02:02 > 2:02:04would provide assistance and advice for employers seeking Access to Work
2:02:04 > 2:02:11support for their employees who are deaf or have a hearing loss?
2:02:11 > 2:02:16I have listened to people refer to deafness as an invisible
2:02:16 > 2:02:21handicap, and it absolutely is, it is an invisible disability.
2:02:21 > 2:02:26However, that also means it is an easy target for cuts,
2:02:26 > 2:02:31especially in the NHS, Education and the DWP.
2:02:31 > 2:02:35We must guard against taking that easy, quick solution in the hope
2:02:35 > 2:02:39that deaf people and the hard of hearing will not be able
2:02:39 > 2:02:44to articulate the anger they feel at their treatment.
2:02:44 > 2:02:47I have two hearing aids, and I ask the Minister:
2:02:47 > 2:02:50if my hearing deteriorated to such an extent that I needed
2:02:50 > 2:02:55communication support to do my job as an MP,
2:02:55 > 2:02:59would these rules enable me to do the job effectively?
2:02:59 > 2:03:01If not, how is everybody else supposed to do their jobs
2:03:01 > 2:03:05under these rules?
2:03:05 > 2:03:07Do the rules not jeopardise employment, rather than helping
2:03:07 > 2:03:13to increase it within the deaf and hard of hearing community?
2:03:13 > 2:03:16On a slightly different subject, as I said before, my first
2:03:16 > 2:03:19language was sign language, and I was delighted that the Labour
2:03:19 > 2:03:21party general election manifesto earlier this year committed
2:03:21 > 2:03:25to giving BSL full legal recognition.
2:03:25 > 2:03:31That would improve the structures and the expectation of full language
2:03:31 > 2:03:33access, through fully qualified interpreters, in all
2:03:33 > 2:03:38aspects of public life.
2:03:38 > 2:03:47However, that leads to a question: if the Government do not value
2:03:47 > 2:03:49interpreters, how will that encourage people to
2:03:49 > 2:03:51take up those roles?
2:03:51 > 2:03:55What will we do if people do not learn BSL and are not
2:03:55 > 2:03:59there as interpreters?
2:03:59 > 2:04:03We already have cases of unqualified people interpreting in courts.
2:04:03 > 2:04:05That is wrong.
2:04:05 > 2:04:08They have no idea about deaf culture or the nuances
2:04:08 > 2:04:11and what people really mean.
2:04:11 > 2:04:13There is a difference between somebody who is just
2:04:13 > 2:04:16learning sign language and somebody who is really fluent or speaks it
2:04:16 > 2:04:19as a first language and understands what a deaf person is really saying.
2:04:19 > 2:04:29We need to value those interpreters.
2:04:31 > 2:04:33My final question to the Minister is -
2:04:33 > 2:04:35does he agree that legal
2:04:35 > 2:04:42recognition will provide another means of improving awareness
2:04:42 > 2:04:45of deafness and of the barriers that deaf people and those with hearing
2:04:45 > 2:04:55loss deal with in the workplace?
2:04:55 > 2:04:58the reason I keep looking up this because I keep hearing somebody
2:04:58 > 2:05:01speaking there.
2:05:01 > 2:05:04We need to ensure that Access to Work is extended to many more
2:05:04 > 2:05:11employers than the current miniscule few who actually use it.
2:05:11 > 2:05:15I do look forward to hearing the Minister's reply.
2:05:15 > 2:05:20Ultimately, he will be ?judged on the ability of the deaf community
2:05:20 > 2:05:22and those with hearing loss to succeed and to realise
2:05:22 > 2:05:29their potentials.
2:05:29 > 2:05:31That means in every part of their lives, particularly
2:05:31 > 2:05:33in the workplace, education and health, because without those
2:05:33 > 2:05:35things, what are we to do?
2:05:35 > 2:05:42Please give them the same chances that we get.
2:05:42 > 2:05:45Martyn Day.
2:05:45 > 2:05:48It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck,
2:05:48 > 2:05:53and to take part in this important debate secured by the Honourable
2:05:53 > 2:05:55Member for Poplar and Limehouse.
2:05:55 > 2:05:57It has been a consensual debate across the Chamber,
2:05:57 > 2:06:00which is extremely welcome.
2:06:00 > 2:06:03This will be the first time that my words have ever been signed,
2:06:03 > 2:06:07as well as it being the first time in a parliamentary debate,
2:06:07 > 2:06:10I certainly hope it becomes a regular feature in Parliament.
2:06:10 > 2:06:13It would be nice if the signing was on the live feed,
2:06:13 > 2:06:17not only on the re-broadcast.
2:06:17 > 2:06:19I do not know whose remit that is in, perhaps
2:06:19 > 2:06:21the parliamentary authorities or the Administration Committee
2:06:21 > 2:06:23could discuss it further with the broadcasters to see how
2:06:24 > 2:06:25best we can implement that.
2:06:25 > 2:06:26Again, I thank the Honourable
2:06:26 > 2:06:29Gentleman for securing the debate, it is a tremendous first.
2:06:29 > 2:06:35I echo the calls from the Honourable
2:06:35 > 2:06:37Member for Milton Keynes South that providing sign
2:06:37 > 2:06:40language interpretation should become a regular feature.
2:06:40 > 2:06:43Various Members have discussed the multiplicity of Departments
2:06:43 > 2:06:51responsible for this sphere.
2:06:51 > 2:06:54If that is not simplified, there certainly seems to be
2:06:54 > 2:06:57a need for there to be, at the very least, a clear,
2:06:57 > 2:06:58identified lead Department.
2:06:58 > 2:07:00That may be an easier route.
2:07:00 > 2:07:06We have heard of the many day-to-day difficulties experienced by those
2:07:06 > 2:07:08who are hard of hearing, one person in six is affected,
2:07:08 > 2:07:11and they are less likely to be in employment.
2:07:11 > 2:07:15On the one hand, it is welcome news that technology is making it easier
2:07:15 > 2:07:17for people suffering from deafness to work, while, on the other,
2:07:17 > 2:07:20it is worrying that the cap on Access to Work support has
2:07:20 > 2:07:23disproportionately impacted on those with hearing loss.
2:07:23 > 2:07:28That point has been well made and I do not need to emphasise it
2:07:28 > 2:07:32further, the cost-benefit ratio of £1 spent to £1.48 received says
2:07:32 > 2:07:34it all, in financial terms.
2:07:34 > 2:07:36Various Members have given their personal
2:07:36 > 2:07:41stories and accounts, such as the Honourable
2:07:41 > 2:07:42Member for Rochester and Strood.
2:07:42 > 2:07:46I am also grateful to the right Honourable
2:07:46 > 2:07:48Member for Wolverhampton South East for the case
2:07:48 > 2:07:51he identified, which put a very human dimension on to the issue.
2:07:51 > 2:07:54I cannot imagine what it would be like to not hear family or listen
2:07:54 > 2:07:57to music, I have no comprehension of how awful that would be.
2:07:57 > 2:07:59However, there are ways that we can help people,
2:07:59 > 2:08:02and we should do everything we can to ensure a better quality
2:08:02 > 2:08:03of life for everyone.
2:08:03 > 2:08:06Indeed, that is effectively the challenge of today: to ensure
2:08:06 > 2:08:08that deaf people can be fully involved in daily and public life
2:08:08 > 2:08:11as active, healthy citizens who can make informed choices about every
2:08:11 > 2:08:20aspect of their own lives.
2:08:20 > 2:08:24My colleague
2:08:24 > 2:08:25for Edinburgh East covered much
2:08:25 > 2:08:27of what happens in Scotland, but I will mention a few
2:08:28 > 2:08:29of the points again.
2:08:29 > 2:08:30The Scottish Government have a British Sign Language
2:08:30 > 2:08:33national plan, which, as has been said, aims to make
2:08:33 > 2:08:36Scotland the best place in the world for BSL users to live,
2:08:36 > 2:08:37work and visit.
2:08:37 > 2:08:40It seems to be a regular feature ?in debates that I am always telling
2:08:40 > 2:08:43people to visit my constituency, so I might as well
2:08:43 > 2:08:45emphasise this again - it is a great place,
2:08:45 > 2:08:49If you have not been, do come.
2:08:49 > 2:08:52The British Sign Language Scotland Act 2015 requires public bodies
2:08:52 > 2:08:55in Scotland to publish plans for how they will promote and support
2:08:55 > 2:08:56BSL every six years.
2:08:56 > 2:08:58The first national plan covers the Scottish Government,
2:08:58 > 2:09:00and other public bodies, including councils, NHS boards,
2:09:00 > 2:09:03colleges and universities, will publish plans next year.
2:09:03 > 2:09:06The national plan, which runs from 2017-23, is the first
2:09:06 > 2:09:09of its kind in the UK and sets out ten long-term goals for BSL
2:09:09 > 2:09:11in Scotland, covering early years and education,
2:09:11 > 2:09:14training and work, health, mental health and wellbeing,
2:09:14 > 2:09:16transport, culture and the arts, justice and democracy.
2:09:16 > 2:09:19It describes 70 actions Scottish Ministers will take
2:09:19 > 2:09:24by 2020, whereafter a progress report shall be published
2:09:24 > 2:09:26and a further set of actions for delivery by 2023
2:09:26 > 2:09:27will be identified.
2:09:27 > 2:09:34My honourable friend
2:09:34 > 2:09:36from Edinburgh East mentioned several of those key
2:09:36 > 2:09:38actions, so I will not repeat them.
2:09:38 > 2:09:41However, I can think of a 71st action that might feed into the next
2:09:41 > 2:09:44round for the Scottish Government and might be one we should take
2:09:44 > 2:09:47forward in this Parliament, and that is what we as individual
2:09:47 > 2:09:48elected Members do to facilitate that.
2:09:48 > 2:09:51In preparing for the debate, I thought about what we do on home
2:09:51 > 2:09:53visits and for people visiting our constituency offices.
2:09:53 > 2:09:56There are a number of issues, and we may need parliamentary
2:09:56 > 2:09:58guidance on how best to service all our constituents
2:09:58 > 2:09:59with their inquiries.
2:09:59 > 2:10:01In Scotland, a lot of it is about attitude,
2:10:01 > 2:10:03but our plan is also backed up by money.
2:10:03 > 2:10:07£1.3 million has been put in to support it.
2:10:07 > 2:10:10That is not a grand amount, but it is enough to do
2:10:10 > 2:10:12a fair amount of work.
2:10:12 > 2:10:14Dr Terry Riley, chair of the British Deaf Association,
2:10:14 > 2:10:16said that the Scottish Government's national plan is
2:10:16 > 2:10:19"A brilliant example for the rest of the United Kingdom to follow."
2:10:19 > 2:10:22I hope that Ministers will have a look at what we
2:10:22 > 2:10:23are doing in Scotland.
2:10:23 > 2:10:27I have a copy of the plan here, if anyone wants it.
2:10:27 > 2:10:30I am not hard of hearing, but I am poor of vision,
2:10:30 > 2:10:33and I am pleased to say that the plan is in quite
2:10:33 > 2:10:36large print, so it suits the likes of myself to a tee.
2:10:36 > 2:10:39It is not just through the BSL national plan
2:10:39 > 2:10:41that the Scottish Government are taking action to help.
2:10:41 > 2:10:44The disability delivery plan is another way that we can help
2:10:44 > 2:10:46by removing barriers and promoting independent living, with a key
2:10:46 > 2:10:49target being a reduction in the employment gap
2:10:49 > 2:10:53between disabled people and the rest of the population.
2:10:53 > 2:10:57It has been highlighted today that deaf people are not in as great
2:10:57 > 2:11:02an employment position as other members of society.
2:11:02 > 2:11:07The Scotland Act 2016 devolved a number of powers to set up
2:11:07 > 2:11:10employment schemes to assist those at risk of becoming long-term
2:11:10 > 2:11:12unemployed and to help disabled people into work,
2:11:12 > 2:11:14including schemes that seek to help employers
2:11:14 > 2:11:20to find suitable employees.
2:11:20 > 2:11:23As a result, Fair Start Scotland will operate from 2018 for three
2:11:23 > 2:11:25years, with the aim of helping a minimum of 38,000
2:11:25 > 2:11:28people into work.
2:11:28 > 2:11:31I hope that a number of those will be deaf people and those
2:11:31 > 2:11:32who are hard of hearing.
2:11:32 > 2:11:36At a UK level, more needs to be done to address the gender,
2:11:36 > 2:11:38race and disability pay gap and tackle pay inequality
2:11:38 > 2:11:42and occupational segregation.
2:11:42 > 2:11:44To that end, I support extension of pay gap
2:11:44 > 2:11:47reporting to cover gender, ?race and disability.
2:11:47 > 2:11:50I am keen to hear the Minister's thoughts on that.
2:11:50 > 2:11:55Better and more statistics could help us greatly in this cause.
2:11:55 > 2:12:00I would also like to hear from the Minister on EU law,
2:12:00 > 2:12:02which has played a huge role in upholding the rights
2:12:03 > 2:12:06of disabled people.
2:12:06 > 2:12:11Those rights must be protected post-Brexit.
2:12:11 > 2:12:13There are many examples, but of particular importance
2:12:13 > 2:12:15to the deaf community are the employment equality
2:12:15 > 2:12:17directive of 2000 and the public sector websites and mobile
2:12:17 > 2:12:19applications directive of 2016, which requires public sector bodies
2:12:19 > 2:12:21to ensure that their websites and mobile apps comply
2:12:21 > 2:12:24with accessibility standards so that they can be used
2:12:24 > 2:12:28by disabled people.
2:12:28 > 2:12:30As well as protecting existing EU measures,
2:12:30 > 2:12:34it is important to ensure that the UK is not left behind.
2:12:34 > 2:12:38For example, the European Accessibility Act is being
2:12:38 > 2:12:45negotiated at an EU level.
2:12:45 > 2:12:49The Equality and Human Rights Commission has said that the Act
2:12:49 > 2:12:52will benefit disabled people by providing common rules
2:12:52 > 2:12:55on accessibility in relation to computers and operating systems,
2:12:55 > 2:12:57ATMs, ticketing and check-in machines, smartphones,
2:12:57 > 2:12:58TV equipment related to digital television services, telephony
2:12:59 > 2:13:04services and related equipment.
2:13:04 > 2:13:07It would be great to know what the UK proposals are for those
2:13:07 > 2:13:09areas in the future.
2:13:09 > 2:13:12It would be tremendous if the Minister looked into that.
2:13:12 > 2:13:15There is much we can learn from different countries.
2:13:15 > 2:13:17My honourable friend
2:13:17 > 2:13:19the Member for Edinburgh East and I have mentioned
2:13:19 > 2:13:21what is happening in Scotland, and the Honourable
2:13:21 > 2:13:24Member for Milton Keynes South mentioned some of the things
2:13:24 > 2:13:25happening in Australia.
2:13:25 > 2:13:28There is a lot we can learn, and I look forward to hearing
2:13:28 > 2:13:30the other winding-up speeches and seeing this go further forward.
2:13:31 > 2:13:35Julie Cooper.
2:13:35 > 2:13:39It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck.
2:13:39 > 2:13:45I thank my honourable friend
2:13:45 > 2:13:47the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
2:13:47 > 2:13:49for bringing this important subject to our attention.
2:13:49 > 2:13:51I begin by saying how delighted I am to see
2:13:51 > 2:13:53that we have a signer in the room.
2:13:53 > 2:13:55It must be really easy for us to extend that
2:13:55 > 2:13:58service across the business of the House-that would be a really
2:13:58 > 2:14:02quick win, I think we all agree.
2:14:02 > 2:14:06It is a real privilege to respond to the debate
2:14:06 > 2:14:11on behalf of the Opposition.
2:14:11 > 2:14:14I have been genuinely moved by some of the powerful and personal
2:14:14 > 2:14:17speeches we have heard today.
2:14:17 > 2:14:19They prepared me far better for my contribution
2:14:19 > 2:14:22than the research I did ahead of the debate.
2:14:22 > 2:14:28We can look at the statistics, such as the fact that 11 million
2:14:28 > 2:14:31people in the UK are living with deafness, but we have heard
2:14:31 > 2:14:37today about the extent of it.
2:14:37 > 2:14:43The Honourable Member for Rochester and Strood
2:14:43 > 2:14:44courageously shared a very personal story
2:14:44 > 2:14:47and enriched the debate.
2:14:47 > 2:14:49We thank her for that.
2:14:49 > 2:14:51My right honourable friend
2:14:51 > 2:14:54the Member for Wolverhampton South East
2:14:54 > 2:14:56talked movingly of his constituent.
2:14:56 > 2:15:00We heard about a family having to raise £44,000 to let
2:15:00 > 2:15:07a little four-year-old boy have a chance in life.
2:15:07 > 2:15:12I think we all agree that we must do more.
2:15:12 > 2:15:14The best thing about the debate is that it has raised
2:15:14 > 2:15:20awareness of a massive issue.
2:15:20 > 2:15:25We are talking about deafness and hearing loss, people
2:15:25 > 2:15:28who were born deaf and people who become deaf, sometimes
2:15:28 > 2:15:38through illness and sometimes through the ageing process,
2:15:38 > 2:15:44and how are we going to support them all, beginning with the children.
2:15:44 > 2:15:51The fact ?that only a third of screening processes for newborn
2:15:51 > 2:15:59babies are up to standard and accredited is of great concern.
2:15:59 > 2:16:02That needs to be addressed, and soon Bearing in mind that 50,000
2:16:02 > 2:16:09children in the UK are deaf, we must serve them well and make
2:16:09 > 2:16:12sure they are not isolated.
2:16:12 > 2:16:18We must make sure that their isolation does not
2:16:18 > 2:16:25begin with being isolated from their parents.
2:16:25 > 2:16:29The majority, 90% of children born deaf are born to hearing parents.
2:16:29 > 2:16:31If their parents are not supported, there are implications for
2:16:31 > 2:16:36the child's language development.
2:16:36 > 2:16:40We know there are ways of providing support, such as radio aids,
2:16:40 > 2:16:44and we must make that available to parents and support them.
2:16:44 > 2:16:48We hear a lot in the House about early intervention
2:16:48 > 2:16:52for all children to address all issues in the early years,
2:16:52 > 2:16:56and there can be no more important an issue to address than this.
2:16:56 > 2:17:02My honourable friend
2:17:02 > 2:17:03the Member for West Lancashire
2:17:03 > 2:17:06stressed powerfully that deaf children and deaf adults do not have
2:17:06 > 2:17:08learning disabilities.
2:17:08 > 2:17:14Our education system must address this.
2:17:14 > 2:17:19It cannot be right that deaf children are 42% less likely
2:17:19 > 2:17:22to get five decent GCSEs.
2:17:22 > 2:17:28We are hindering their progress for life at that early stage.
2:17:28 > 2:17:33I was alarmed to learn that since 2011, the number of specialist
2:17:33 > 2:17:37teachers for the deaf has reduced by 12%.
2:17:37 > 2:17:41That cannot be the right way forward.
2:17:41 > 2:17:42Members have rightly stressed the importance
2:17:42 > 2:17:46of British Sign Language.
2:17:46 > 2:17:50I have to admit, I never realised until this week-I
2:17:50 > 2:17:55never thought it through, and I am sure I am not the only
2:17:55 > 2:17:59one, that British Sign Language is some people's first language.
2:17:59 > 2:18:03I thought of it as something separate that helped, but this
2:18:03 > 2:18:07debate has increased my awareness.
2:18:07 > 2:18:10The more this is talked about, the better.
2:18:10 > 2:18:15It is vital that BSL is taken seriously and given recognition.
2:18:15 > 2:18:18The UK is a signatory to the UN convention on the rights
2:18:18 > 2:18:22of persons with disabilities, but we must do more and give
2:18:22 > 2:18:25this language the equal validation it deserves.
2:18:25 > 2:18:30Why can British Sign Language not be a GCSE subject?
2:18:30 > 2:18:33I know this is beyond the remit of the Minister and his Department,
2:18:33 > 2:18:36but I am sure he will pass it on to his colleagues
2:18:36 > 2:18:39in the Department for Education.
2:18:39 > 2:18:41If BSL were a GCSE subject, people would take it seriously,
2:18:41 > 2:18:44more people would learn it and there would be more access
2:18:44 > 2:18:46to it, and therefore deaf people would be able
2:18:47 > 2:18:52to participate more fully.
2:18:52 > 2:18:57Members have rightly mentioned the human cost
2:18:57 > 2:19:04as well as the financial cost of isolation not being addressed.
2:19:04 > 2:19:09The health statistics are quite clear-for example,
2:19:09 > 2:19:13on the number of people who retire early or suffer from anxiety
2:19:13 > 2:19:17and depression because they can no longer cope in the world of work.
2:19:17 > 2:19:23As has been mentioned, many elderly people who lose their hearing
2:19:23 > 2:19:27lose their social circle and cannot communicate with family.
2:19:27 > 2:19:29There is the cost of not supporting them with hearing
2:19:29 > 2:19:34aids and, as the Honourable
2:19:34 > 2:19:37Member for Milton Keynes South mentioned,
2:19:37 > 2:19:46with a telecommunications relay service.
2:19:46 > 2:19:48We should be looking into such systems to maximise
2:19:48 > 2:19:54inclusion for old people.
2:19:54 > 2:19:59The world of work is obviously a massive issue.
2:19:59 > 2:20:03The Access to Work scheme is absolutely brilliant.
2:20:03 > 2:20:10It is shocking that it is probably the DWP's best kept secret.
2:20:10 > 2:20:15I recently hosted a Disability Confident employers event,
2:20:15 > 2:20:18and many of the employers admitted that they had not known
2:20:18 > 2:20:21about the scheme at all.
2:20:21 > 2:20:27There are two aspects to the world of work when it comes to deafness.
2:20:27 > 2:20:33The person ?who is deaf or hard of hearing needs
2:20:33 > 2:20:36support to cope at work, and the employer in particular,
2:20:36 > 2:20:39the small or medium-sized employer-needs support to understand
2:20:39 > 2:20:48that that need not disadvantage their business.
2:20:48 > 2:20:56As has rightly been mentioned, I think my right honourable friend
2:20:56 > 2:20:59the Member for Nottingham East said
2:20:59 > 2:21:01this, when a disabled person is employed and supported
2:21:01 > 2:21:03in their workplace, it reduces workforce churn.
2:21:03 > 2:21:05The support does not have to be expensive.
2:21:05 > 2:21:07Sometimes it is about awareness, moving someone's seat
2:21:07 > 2:21:10so that they can lip-read, or letting them sit in a quiet
2:21:10 > 2:21:14corner of the office where background noise is not such
2:21:15 > 2:21:19an issue for them.
2:21:19 > 2:21:25The message from the Government about Disability Confident employers
2:21:25 > 2:21:32is very strong and very useful, but now, with the capping
2:21:32 > 2:21:35of Access to Work support, they seem to be sending
2:21:35 > 2:21:38a contradictory message.
2:21:38 > 2:21:41Can we afford not to support people in work?
2:21:41 > 2:21:43What is the cost of not supporting them?
2:21:43 > 2:21:47What a loss of talent.
2:21:47 > 2:21:52As we have said, this debate covers many areas and not
2:21:52 > 2:21:57just one Department, but not least is the Department
2:21:57 > 2:21:59responsible for economic development, because what is
2:21:59 > 2:22:03the cost to our economy of not utilising and maximising
2:22:03 > 2:22:07the potential of all our citizens, including people who are deaf
2:22:07 > 2:22:10or hard of hearing?
2:22:10 > 2:22:18What can we do?
2:22:18 > 2:22:21What concrete action can we take?
2:22:21 > 2:22:24The recommendations in the 2015 action plan were very welcome.
2:22:24 > 2:22:29I think there is agreement on both sides of the House that
2:22:29 > 2:22:35that is a sensible plan, so let us see it put into action.
2:22:35 > 2:22:38The "What Works" guides published this year were an excellent piece
2:22:38 > 2:22:45of work that we need to build on.
2:22:45 > 2:22:47Concrete action is needed at every stage.
2:22:47 > 2:22:51We need to ensure that newborn babies are properly screened
2:22:51 > 2:22:54and that the screening is always of high quality.
2:22:54 > 2:22:58We need to support parents of deaf children with early intervention.
2:22:58 > 2:23:02We need to support schools and ensure that there are specialist
2:23:02 > 2:23:08teachers and that children are not allowed to feel like
2:23:08 > 2:23:11second-class citizens.
2:23:11 > 2:23:17We need to promote British Sign Language in schools and allow it
2:23:17 > 2:23:23to become a GCSE subject.
2:23:23 > 2:23:25We should look to the Scottish example, an excellent job
2:23:25 > 2:23:28is obviously being done there.
2:23:28 > 2:23:31As someone who is half-Scottish, I say, "If the Scots can do it,
2:23:31 > 2:23:34so can we," and I am sure we will do it at least as well.
2:23:34 > 2:23:40We must ensure that equipment is enhanced and not restricted.
2:23:40 > 2:23:43I was shocked to hear of clinical commissioning groups that
2:23:43 > 2:23:46are beginning to restrict the provision of hearing aids.
2:23:46 > 2:23:51The criteria for cochlear implants must be reviewed.
2:23:51 > 2:23:57We must look to aid people's hearing and support them to live full lives,
2:23:57 > 2:24:02rather than looking for ways to limit them.
2:24:02 > 2:24:04We have to go back and review those criteria.
2:24:04 > 2:24:06Let us invest in unlocking the potential of the deaf
2:24:06 > 2:24:11and the hard of hearing.
2:24:11 > 2:24:16Our economy depends on the talents of all our people.
2:24:16 > 2:24:20The cost of not acting not only causes misery for individuals
2:24:20 > 2:24:23who are discriminated against and excluded from society
2:24:23 > 2:24:27and the world of work, but stores up for the future huge
2:24:27 > 2:24:29costs for our health, support services and,
2:24:29 > 2:24:33of course, our economy.
2:24:33 > 2:24:35The failure to support deaf people to fulfil their potential
2:24:35 > 2:24:38is costing the economy.
2:24:38 > 2:24:46We cannot afford not to act.
2:24:47 > 2:24:49I thank all Honourable
2:24:49 > 2:24:54Members very much for their contributions.
2:24:54 > 2:24:57There are many ways I could spend a Thursday afternoon,
2:24:57 > 2:25:01but I have really enjoyed this ?debate and I have learned a lot.
2:25:01 > 2:25:03This has been a consensual debate, and I thank the shadow
2:25:03 > 2:25:07Minister, the Honourable
2:25:07 > 2:25:08Member for Burnley, for the excellent
2:25:08 > 2:25:10tone of her comments.
2:25:10 > 2:25:12I really enjoyed what she had to say as well.
2:25:12 > 2:25:15Like everyone else, I congratulate the Honourable
2:25:15 > 2:25:17Member for Poplar and Limehouse on securing
2:25:17 > 2:25:19the debate through the Backbench Business Committee,
2:25:19 > 2:25:20and also our signers.
2:25:20 > 2:25:24Thank you for doing what is a first and for working so hard.
2:25:24 > 2:25:27I cannot sign, but I can imagine that it is quite hard work
2:25:27 > 2:25:29to do it for three hours.
2:25:29 > 2:25:32There are two signers and they have worked really hard.
2:25:32 > 2:25:35Thank you for that.
2:25:35 > 2:25:39I do not have a hearing problem, but I do have a sight problem,
2:25:39 > 2:25:42which is why I have a lectern in front of me.
2:25:42 > 2:25:45The papers are far too far away from me without it,
2:25:45 > 2:25:47which is why I always put it into play.
2:25:47 > 2:25:51I thank the all-party parliamentary group on deafness,
2:25:51 > 2:25:54a number of whose members have spoken today, for all the work
2:25:54 > 2:25:57that it does in the House in raising awareness and improving the way
2:25:57 > 2:25:58we provide support.
2:25:58 > 2:26:01I cannot remember in my time in the House a debate on this subject,
2:26:01 > 2:26:03so it was certainly long overdue.
2:26:03 > 2:26:05All-party groups can do this, the Backbench Business
2:26:05 > 2:26:06Committee is excellent.
2:26:06 > 2:26:09As we have heard, hearing loss is widespread, affecting one in six
2:26:09 > 2:26:12of the UK population, and it has a massive
2:26:12 > 2:26:17impact on the lives of our constituents and,
2:26:17 > 2:26:18indeed, some Members of the House.
2:26:18 > 2:26:22We have heard today really incredible contributions
2:26:22 > 2:26:28and I agree with the Honourable
2:26:28 > 2:26:30Member for Burnley, really moving contributions,
2:26:30 > 2:26:35especially from the Honourable
2:26:35 > 2:26:40Member for West Lancashire.
2:26:40 > 2:26:43There was not a dry eye in the House when she was speaking, thank
2:26:43 > 2:26:45you for the way you put things.
2:26:45 > 2:26:48I was going to intervene to give her a chance to have a drink,
2:26:48 > 2:26:50but she was brilliant in the way she put things.
2:26:50 > 2:26:52I thank her for that.
2:26:52 > 2:26:54I shall highlight the key steps that the Government are taking
2:26:54 > 2:26:57to support those with hearing loss and deafness and then move
2:26:57 > 2:26:59on to the other important points raised by Honourable
2:26:59 > 2:27:00Members during the debate.
2:27:00 > 2:27:03I apologise in advance in case I do not cover them all,
2:27:03 > 2:27:04I will write to Honourable
2:27:04 > 2:27:06Members about any points that are not covered.
2:27:06 > 2:27:08As we heard from the Honourable
2:27:08 > 2:27:10Member for Poplar and Limehouse, in March 2015 the Department
2:27:10 > 2:27:13of Health and NHS England published "Action Plan on Hearing Loss".
2:27:13 > 2:27:15That is a statement of intent for action
2:27:15 > 2:27:18across the health and care sector.
2:27:18 > 2:27:20There is an ongoing programme of work that the action
2:27:20 > 2:27:21plan has initiated.
2:27:21 > 2:27:23There are 20 separate outcome measures, which the Honourable
2:27:23 > 2:27:28Gentleman touched on.
2:27:28 > 2:27:30In September 2017, working with the Department for Work
2:27:30 > 2:27:34and Pensions, the Department for Education and hearing loss
2:27:34 > 2:27:36charities, NHS England issued a series of "What Works" guides,
2:27:36 > 2:27:38providing examples of what we know works in supporting
2:27:38 > 2:27:40individuals with hearing loss throughout their lives.
2:27:40 > 2:27:42Those guides, aimed at organisations, providers
2:27:42 > 2:27:44and commissioners, cover hearing loss and employment,
2:27:44 > 2:27:47the transition to adulthood for young people with hearing loss,
2:27:47 > 2:27:51and hearing loss and healthy ageing.
2:27:51 > 2:27:54A key point in the plan is the need for clear
2:27:54 > 2:28:02guidance for commissioners, and in July 2016 NHS England
2:28:02 > 2:28:08published the Commissioning Services for People with Hearing Loss:
2:28:08 > 2:28:10A framework for clinical commissioning ?groups
2:28:10 > 2:28:11snappy titles
2:28:11 > 2:28:14we do not do in the NHS, as I have learned since arriving
2:28:14 > 2:28:16there as a Minister.
2:28:16 > 2:28:18As the Minister responsible for public health, I am very pleased
2:28:18 > 2:28:21that that framework recognises hearing loss as a "major
2:28:21 > 2:28:23public health challenge", because that is exactly what it is.
2:28:23 > 2:28:25The framework is a major step forward in focusing local
2:28:25 > 2:28:27commissioners on tackling uncorrected hearing loss
2:28:27 > 2:28:29and on addressing the variation in access to and the quality
2:28:30 > 2:28:32of services across the country.
2:28:32 > 2:28:34The framework has been developed with a range of stakeholders,
2:28:34 > 2:28:37including voluntary sector groups and professional representative
2:28:37 > 2:28:46groups, such as Action on Hearing Loss, which has been
2:28:46 > 2:28:48mentioned today, and the British Tinnitus Association, ditto, which
2:28:48 > 2:28:51are members of the Hearing Loss and Deafness Alliance.
2:28:51 > 2:28:53The guidance is crucial in ensuring consistency across CCG commissioning
2:28:53 > 2:28:55in England and supporting commissioners as they make decisions
2:28:55 > 2:28:58on what is effective and good value for their local populations.
2:28:58 > 2:29:01In turn, it will help to reduce inequalities in access to
2:29:01 > 2:29:02and outcomes from hearing services.
2:29:02 > 2:29:05I recognise the need for us to maintain momentum and to ensure
2:29:05 > 2:29:07that the action plan secures positive outcomes for those
2:29:07 > 2:29:17with hearing loss and deafness.
2:29:20 > 2:29:25Let me turn to the points, hopefully all of them,
2:29:25 > 2:29:26that have been raised.
2:29:26 > 2:29:31In response to the speech by my right honourable friend
2:29:31 > 2:29:35the Member for Hemel Hempstead,
2:29:35 > 2:29:38who I know had to run away-he is my former boss, I say
2:29:38 > 2:29:41this - not only am I not the Minister for Education,
2:29:41 > 2:29:43DWP, DCMS or others, I am not even the Minister
2:29:43 > 2:29:44within the Department
2:29:44 > 2:29:46of Health covering this area, but never let that
2:29:46 > 2:29:47stop a happy Minister.
2:29:47 > 2:29:49I really enjoyed listening to the debate.
2:29:49 > 2:29:52The smartest way to respond will be to take the points that have
2:29:52 > 2:29:53been raised the most.
2:29:53 > 2:29:54The Honourable
2:29:54 > 2:29:57Member for Poplar and Limehouse, in opening the debate, the Honourable
2:29:57 > 2:29:59Member for Bristol East, who mentioned her
2:29:59 > 2:30:00constituent, my right honourable friend
2:30:00 > 2:30:02the Member for Hemel Hempstead and pretty much
2:30:02 > 2:30:07all other speakers mentioned the Access to Work scheme.
2:30:07 > 2:30:09I recognise Members' concerns about the impact
2:30:09 > 2:30:10of changes to Access to Work.
2:30:10 > 2:30:11I understand that the Honourable
2:30:11 > 2:30:14Member for Poplar and Limehouse will meet with the Minister
2:30:14 > 2:30:16for Disabled People, Health and Work early
2:30:16 > 2:30:19in the new year to discuss in more detail Access to Work and concerns
2:30:19 > 2:30:20he has about it.
2:30:20 > 2:30:23Members will realise that I am not that Minister,
2:30:23 > 2:30:31who is my honourable friend
2:30:31 > 2:30:33the Member for Truro and Falmouth,
2:30:33 > 2:30:36but I spoke to her at lunch time ahead of this debate
2:30:36 > 2:30:38and I was on the Front Bench with her this afternoon
2:30:38 > 2:30:40for the statement on the new Command Paper.
2:30:40 > 2:30:43We will speak after this debate to ensure that she is fully up
2:30:43 > 2:30:46to date with everything raised that comes within her portfolio.
2:30:46 > 2:30:49I think it is worth putting it on record that resources for Access
2:30:49 > 2:30:52to Work were increased in real terms in the 2015 spending review.
2:30:52 > 2:30:53I appreciate that Honourable
2:30:53 > 2:30:56Members have all spoken positively about Access
2:30:56 > 2:31:00to Work as a scheme, but resources within
2:31:00 > 2:31:08a publicly-funded health service are still finite and they need to be
2:31:08 > 2:31:11allocated to the growing numbers coming to the scheme, 8% more people
2:31:11 > 2:31:13had Access to Work provision approved last year
2:31:13 > 2:31:21than the previous year, including 13% more deaf people.
2:31:21 > 2:31:24Last year, we spent £104 million on Access to Work grants,
2:31:24 > 2:31:26an increase from £97 million the year before.
2:31:26 > 2:31:28As has been said by a number of Honourable
2:31:28 > 2:31:30Members, Access to Work is a demand-led scheme and therefore
2:31:30 > 2:31:33the number ?and level of awards will reflect that.
2:31:33 > 2:31:35We intend for it to continue to meet demand, and with
2:31:35 > 2:31:40that the numbers continue to go up.
2:31:40 > 2:31:43I do not accept that the maximum level of support is too low.
2:31:43 > 2:31:48The help an individual may receive from Access to Work depends
2:31:48 > 2:31:51on their individual needs and their personal circumstances, up
2:31:51 > 2:31:54to the current maximum of £42,100 per year rising to £43,100
2:31:54 > 2:31:57from April 2018.
2:31:57 > 2:32:01That is 1.5 times the average salary, which is far more
2:32:01 > 2:32:03than most of my constituents, and those of every Honourable
2:32:03 > 2:32:04Member here, earn.
2:32:04 > 2:32:06Transitional arrangements are in place for existing recipients
2:32:06 > 2:32:11and those who made a claim before October 2015.
2:32:11 > 2:32:13The changes do not apply until April 2018, provided that
2:32:13 > 2:32:15needs remain the same.
2:32:15 > 2:32:17People will receive annual reviews of their progress
2:32:17 > 2:32:22and support in the transition to the award level.
2:32:22 > 2:32:25The Government continually monitor the application of the cap
2:32:25 > 2:32:29and consider whether any further flexibilities might be required.
2:32:29 > 2:32:41That is another point I discussed with my honourable friend from Truro
2:32:41 > 2:32:43before the debate, she is acutely aware of the situation.
2:32:43 > 2:32:46It is not often that a Minister is able to stand up
2:32:46 > 2:32:49in a Westminster Hall debate on the day that something
2:32:49 > 2:32:51new has been announced and touch on something new.
2:32:51 > 2:32:52This Command Paper - Improving Lives:
2:32:52 > 2:32:55The Future of Work, Health
2:32:55 > 2:32:58and Disability - sets out our response to last year's
2:32:58 > 2:33:01Green Paper consultation.
2:33:01 > 2:33:04In this document, a weighty tome that Honourable
2:33:04 > 2:33:07Members and I will want to study, we set out how those users
2:33:07 > 2:33:10with the greatest needs, such as some British Sign Language
2:33:10 > 2:33:12users, will be offered new managed personal budgets,
2:33:12 > 2:33:14as well as workplace assessments involving their employers,
2:33:14 > 2:33:16to help to meet their needs within their award level.
2:33:16 > 2:33:18Deaf customers will also be supported by a dedicated team
2:33:18 > 2:33:21of special advisers.
2:33:21 > 2:33:29The Honourable Member for Eastbourne
2:33:29 > 2:33:30had to get away,
2:33:30 > 2:33:31but he has returned.
2:33:31 > 2:33:33He is indeed a friend from the grand old days
2:33:33 > 2:33:35of the coalition, as he put it.
2:33:35 > 2:33:37I have noted his incredibly well-made point about SMEs.
2:33:37 > 2:33:38My right honourable friend
2:33:38 > 2:33:40the Member for Hemel Hempstead made the point
2:33:40 > 2:33:42that those employing disabled people get a lower churn
2:33:42 > 2:33:43and a number of Honourable
2:33:43 > 2:33:45Members reflected that message in their comments.
2:33:45 > 2:33:47I think it is absolutely right.
2:33:47 > 2:33:50A company based in my constituency called Microlink PC was mentioned
2:33:50 > 2:33:55in the Chamber during the statement.
2:33:55 > 2:33:59It works with large and small organisations, big banks
2:33:59 > 2:34:02in the City and small SMEs across the country, and the focus
2:34:02 > 2:34:05of its business is to use technology to help disabled people into work.
2:34:05 > 2:34:07That absolutely includes people with deafness and hearing loss.
2:34:07 > 2:34:09Many people across the charities sector also work to
2:34:09 > 2:34:19help that to happen.
2:34:22 > 2:34:24I heard the Member for Poplar and Limehouse
2:34:24 > 2:34:25during the statement earlier,
2:34:25 > 2:34:28standing on the back row, and I knew exactly what he was going
2:34:28 > 2:34:32to say, and he did not disappoint when he raised the issue of the cap.
2:34:32 > 2:34:36All I can say is that I wrote on my notes the comments of the Secretary
2:34:36 > 2:34:38of State, which I know the Honourable
2:34:38 > 2:34:45Gentleman will have noted, too, and that I know the Honourable
2:34:45 > 2:34:48Gentleman will bring the matter up with my honourable friend from Truro
2:34:48 > 2:34:49the Minister for Disabled People,
2:34:49 > 2:34:51Health and Work when he meets her.
2:34:51 > 2:34:53The Secretary of State said he would continue to review,
2:34:53 > 2:34:55continue to look at the evidence.
2:34:55 > 2:34:56I encourage the Honourable
2:34:56 > 2:34:58Gentleman to press on that and to continue to look
2:34:58 > 2:35:01at the evidence, because he has that there in black and white
2:35:01 > 2:35:03from the Secretary of State.? The Honourable
2:35:03 > 2:35:04Gentleman also mentioned, as did the Honourable
2:35:04 > 2:35:06Member for Eastbourne and the Honourable
2:35:06 > 2:35:08Member for Blaydon, who has also gone,
2:35:08 > 2:35:09and many other Honourable
2:35:09 > 2:35:10Members, the legal recognition of British Sign Language
2:35:11 > 2:35:13and the case for a BSL GCSE.
2:35:13 > 2:35:16It is not entirely clear to me which Department would lead
2:35:16 > 2:35:19on legal recognition of British Sign Language,
2:35:19 > 2:35:22which is the problem that so many people have referred to today.
2:35:22 > 2:35:25I am sympathetic to the calls for strengthening the role
2:35:25 > 2:35:27of British Sign Language.
2:35:27 > 2:35:29We want to see as many people trained and providing
2:35:29 > 2:35:34support as possible.
2:35:34 > 2:35:37At this time, Her Majesty's Government are not yet convinced
2:35:37 > 2:35:40that the way to achieve that is through legislation.
2:35:40 > 2:35:44The Department for Work and Pensions undertook
2:35:44 > 2:35:46an extensive market review, of which the final report
2:35:46 > 2:35:49was published in July, which demonstrated that
2:35:49 > 2:35:51communication requirements should be addressed on an individual basis
2:35:51 > 2:35:57and that there is no universal approach to addressing these needs.
2:35:57 > 2:36:01We have protections of the legal rights of people who are deaf
2:36:01 > 2:36:04in the Equality Act 2010 and in the duties of the NHS, the
2:36:04 > 2:36:07mandate that I am responsible for giving to NHS England
2:36:07 > 2:36:09and publicly funded social care organisations to
2:36:09 > 2:36:12conform to what we call the accessible information standard.
2:36:12 > 2:36:14I am happy to take that point away.
2:36:14 > 2:36:17It came across clearly from many Honourable
2:36:17 > 2:36:21Members in this debate.
2:36:21 > 2:36:23All I will say is that the private Members' ballot
2:36:23 > 2:36:27is a wonderful thing.
2:36:27 > 2:36:31On the subject of the GCSE, any change to the school curriculum,
2:36:31 > 2:36:36particularly the establishment of new GCSEs, is a matter
2:36:36 > 2:36:39for the Department for Education and something that the all-party
2:36:39 > 2:36:41group will have to take up with it.
2:36:41 > 2:36:45I know from talking to the Department before
2:36:45 > 2:36:48the debate, I suspected that this would come up, that there are no
2:36:48 > 2:36:51plans at this time to introduce further GCSEs beyond those
2:36:51 > 2:36:52to which the Government have already committed,
2:36:52 > 2:36:54but something tells me that the Honourable
2:36:54 > 2:36:56Member for Poplar and Limehouse, my right honourable friend
2:36:56 > 2:36:58the Member for Hemel Hempstead, the Honourable
2:36:58 > 2:36:59Member for Eastbourne and other Honourable
2:36:59 > 2:37:02Members who have spoken today will, with their usual determination,
2:37:02 > 2:37:04follow this through with Ministers at the Department for Education,
2:37:04 > 2:37:08who will no doubt note their comments today.
2:37:08 > 2:37:10The Member for Poplar and Limehouse
2:37:10 > 2:37:13and the right Honourable
2:37:13 > 2:37:14Member for Wolverhampton South East talked
2:37:14 > 2:37:19about the assessment criteria for cochlear implants.
2:37:19 > 2:37:22Those were debated in March when the Honourable
2:37:22 > 2:37:25Member for Poplar and Limehouse had an Adjournment debate
2:37:25 > 2:37:29in which he highlighted the report of the Ear Foundation and he called
2:37:29 > 2:37:32for NICE to review its cochlear implants technology appraisal.
2:37:32 > 2:37:35As the Honourable
2:37:35 > 2:37:37Member will know, NICE is an independent and expert
2:37:37 > 2:37:40body that advises us at the Department, and it has
2:37:40 > 2:37:45discretion to review its guidance in the light of any new evidence.
2:37:45 > 2:37:48NICE is working on a list review for this particular technology
2:37:48 > 2:37:56appraisal and will consult with stakeholders in 2018,
2:37:56 > 2:37:59so I will make sure that he and all other Honourable
2:37:59 > 2:38:02Members who have raised this matter get early sight of that and do not
2:38:02 > 2:38:05have to go looking for it or hear about it in the media.
2:38:05 > 2:38:08I am absolutely sure that this will include consideration
2:38:08 > 2:38:11of thresholds and criteria for getting cochlear implants.
2:38:11 > 2:38:15I understand that NICE is planning this consultation
2:38:15 > 2:38:17because of its recognition of how important this is, going
2:38:17 > 2:38:19beyond the usual review process.
2:38:19 > 2:38:21Although that does not give the Honourable
2:38:21 > 2:38:26Gentleman the clarity he wants, I hope it is helpful
2:38:26 > 2:38:28to him in some way.? The Honourable
2:38:28 > 2:38:36Gentleman and my honourable friend
2:38:36 > 2:38:40the Member for Milton Keynes South who spoke
2:38:40 > 2:38:42excellently about this, talked about the provision of functionally
2:38:42 > 2:38:44equivalent telecoms services and video-text relay services.
2:38:44 > 2:38:48Obviously telecommunications does not sit within the Department
2:38:48 > 2:38:51of Health, no matter how big our remit, I do not think
2:38:51 > 2:38:54we have that one, but it is very good to hear
2:38:54 > 2:38:56companies such as Three
2:38:56 > 2:38:58and deafPLUS are at the forefront of delivering equivalent services
2:38:59 > 2:39:00for their hard-of-hearing customers.
2:39:00 > 2:39:02I wish deafPLUS all the best in the Helpline awards,
2:39:02 > 2:39:03which it has been nominated for.
2:39:03 > 2:39:05I understand that the Department for Digital, Culture,
2:39:05 > 2:39:08Media and Sport has previously considered the issue of provision
2:39:08 > 2:39:10of telecoms services, despite it being a commercial
2:39:10 > 2:39:11decision for the public-facing companies.
2:39:11 > 2:39:17This has included the Department engaging with companies
2:39:17 > 2:39:19and industry, and Ministers writing to the FTSE 100
2:39:19 > 2:39:20companies seeking views.
2:39:20 > 2:39:22I hear that the feedback from that included the view
2:39:22 > 2:39:25that there were better means of meeting the needs
2:39:25 > 2:39:29of consumers with less reliance on video relay services.
2:39:29 > 2:39:33I am happy to raise the issues highlighted by Members with DCMS
2:39:33 > 2:39:36colleagues and see what further engagement there can be,
2:39:36 > 2:39:38and will of course recommend that they look at the Australia
2:39:38 > 2:39:39example that my honourable friend
2:39:39 > 2:39:41the Member for Milton Keynes South spoke
2:39:41 > 2:39:46about in such glowing terms.
2:39:46 > 2:39:48The Member leading the debate, the Honourable
2:39:48 > 2:39:52Member for Poplar and Limehouse, raised the Deaflympics.
2:39:52 > 2:39:53I understand that the Under-Secretary of State
2:39:53 > 2:39:58for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my honourable friend
2:39:58 > 2:39:59the Member for Chatham and Aylesford,
2:39:59 > 2:40:02has instructed officials in her Department to look into how
2:40:02 > 2:40:04we can ensure greater recognition for the Deaflympics in this country,
2:40:04 > 2:40:06and she will consider their advice in due course.
2:40:06 > 2:40:09She is a very accessible Minister, and I know the Honourable
2:40:09 > 2:40:11Gentleman knows her and will no doubt take that matter
2:40:11 > 2:40:18up with her as well.
2:40:18 > 2:40:23A number of people, including the member leading the debate,
2:40:23 > 2:40:25the Member for Waveney and the Honourable
2:40:25 > 2:40:27Member for Bristol East talked about improving
2:40:27 > 2:40:32paediatric audiology services through the Improving Quality in
2:40:32 > 2:40:33Physiological Services scheme.
2:40:33 > 2:40:35Concerns have indeed been raised in relation to accreditation
2:40:35 > 2:40:37of paediatric audiology services.
2:40:37 > 2:40:40The independent process of accreditation, the IQIPS services
2:40:40 > 2:40:43is there to ensure all providers meet a common standard.
2:40:43 > 2:40:45We want all providers to have completed accreditation
2:40:45 > 2:40:48as quickly as possible.
2:40:48 > 2:40:51The commissioning framework encourages clinical commissioning
2:40:51 > 2:40:53groups to require providers to have completed the IQIPS self-assessment
2:40:53 > 2:40:56tool, and to have applied for and achieved accreditation,
2:40:56 > 2:41:01within the duration of their contract.
2:41:01 > 2:41:03Commissioners must be the ones who drive this forward.
2:41:03 > 2:41:06For us, the accreditation process is an effective means of testing
2:41:06 > 2:41:11against the standard.
2:41:11 > 2:41:13If during an assessment mandatory findings are raised that show
2:41:13 > 2:41:16nonconformity with any part of the standard, the service agrees
2:41:16 > 2:41:19appropriate improvement actions with the United Kingdom
2:41:19 > 2:41:20Accreditation Service team to rectify that
2:41:20 > 2:41:24and prevent it reoccurring.
2:41:24 > 2:41:26The Member for Poplar and Limehouse
2:41:26 > 2:41:27and many others raised the issue,
2:41:27 > 2:41:30which I even question myself on, of which Government Department leads
2:41:30 > 2:41:31on British Sign Language.
2:41:31 > 2:41:35I completely appreciate the frustration.
2:41:35 > 2:41:38There can only ever be one Minister at the Box,
2:41:38 > 2:41:43but what we really need is a triumvirate of me
2:41:43 > 2:41:46merged into my honourable friend
2:41:46 > 2:41:50for Truro ?and Falmouth, and for Chatham
2:41:50 > 2:41:52and Aylesford, that would be an interesting sight!
2:41:52 > 2:41:54I totally appreciate the frustration with the fact that no single
2:41:54 > 2:41:56Government Department leads on British Sign Language.
2:41:56 > 2:41:59I suppose, although this will probably just make it worse,
2:41:59 > 2:42:03it would depend on the context, if it is in education,
2:42:03 > 2:42:06that would be for the Department for Education, if it was how BSL
2:42:06 > 2:42:09is used in health settings in line with the accessibility
2:42:09 > 2:42:11standard that I mentioned, that would be for my colleagues
2:42:11 > 2:42:16in the Department of Health.
2:42:16 > 2:42:17I get the Honourable
2:42:17 > 2:42:19Gentleman's point, and will take it away.
2:42:19 > 2:42:20The Honourable
2:42:20 > 2:42:23Member for Eastbourne, whom I know well and is welcome back
2:42:23 > 2:42:27to the House, talked about screening for hearing loss in adults.
2:42:27 > 2:42:30He made the point very well that we do not focus just on people
2:42:30 > 2:42:32with complete hearing loss.
2:42:32 > 2:42:38He said to me the other day that he feared the debate would be
2:42:38 > 2:42:41about the deaf-deaf, as he put it, and he wants to ensure
2:42:41 > 2:42:44that people with partial hearing loss get the support they need.
2:42:44 > 2:42:46He made the point very well that people begin
2:42:46 > 2:42:50to lose their hearing later in life, as age catches up with us all,
2:42:50 > 2:42:54but accept it as part of the natural ageing process.
2:42:54 > 2:42:57They are often reluctant to admit they have a hearing problem,
2:42:57 > 2:43:00do not seek support as promptly as they might with other
2:43:00 > 2:43:03conditions and, as we have heard and as he said,
2:43:03 > 2:43:06often wait years before going for a hearing test.
2:43:06 > 2:43:08We heard his call for the introduction of a hearing loss
2:43:08 > 2:43:11screening programme for people at the age of 66, once
2:43:11 > 2:43:13they reach retirement, and as part of the NHS health check
2:43:13 > 2:43:17for people aged 40 to 70.
2:43:17 > 2:43:21I am responsible for the health check programme.
2:43:21 > 2:43:23The advice from the UK National Screening Committee,
2:43:23 > 2:43:26the expert group that advises Ministers on all aspects
2:43:26 > 2:43:29of screening, is that the evidence does not demonstrate that universal
2:43:29 > 2:43:33screening would provide any hearing-related improvement
2:43:33 > 2:43:35in quality of life in comparison to hearing loss identified
2:43:35 > 2:43:37through other channels.
2:43:37 > 2:43:39However, the Honourable
2:43:39 > 2:43:42Gentleman makes a persuasive argument that we can do more
2:43:42 > 2:43:46to identify hearing loss as people reach older age.
2:43:46 > 2:43:50He said that the general election had intervened,
2:43:50 > 2:43:55but as he also said, he is back, and I do not doubt that
2:43:55 > 2:43:57I will be hearing from him again on this subject,
2:43:57 > 2:43:59probably at Health questions in a couple of weeks' time.
2:43:59 > 2:44:05I will be more than happy to do so, to be honest.
2:44:05 > 2:44:10He also mentioned that CCGs commission the audiology services.
2:44:10 > 2:44:14NHS England's commissioning framework captures the importance
2:44:14 > 2:44:19of audiology, and monthly waiting time data for audiology is collected
2:44:19 > 2:44:24and can and should be used by Members and the public to hold
2:44:24 > 2:44:30commissioners to account.
2:44:30 > 2:44:35I touched on my honourable friend
2:44:35 > 2:44:37the Member for Waveney, who spoke about support
2:44:37 > 2:44:39for children with hearing loss, and about his constituent's
2:44:39 > 2:44:40son, Daniel.
2:44:40 > 2:44:43I was the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group
2:44:43 > 2:44:46on autism for many years when I was on the Back Benches,
2:44:46 > 2:44:49and we often used to hear about the so-called middle-class
2:44:49 > 2:44:53parents with sharp elbows who managed to get their
2:44:53 > 2:44:56children what they needed.
2:44:56 > 2:44:59That is, of course, human nature, but it should not be the sharp
2:44:59 > 2:45:06elbows of the middle classes or of anybody else that gets
2:45:06 > 2:45:09children what they need, that is what the state is for,
2:45:09 > 2:45:10in my opinion.
2:45:10 > 2:45:13Children with a special educational need as a result of their deafness
2:45:13 > 2:45:15will benefit from the more integrated approach
2:45:15 > 2:45:16to meeting their needs.
2:45:16 > 2:45:20Since 2014, a new framework has required CCGs and local authorities
2:45:20 > 2:45:23to make joint arrangements for assessing the range
2:45:23 > 2:45:25of ?eligible children's needs, and the development
2:45:25 > 2:45:28of what my honourable friend
2:45:28 > 2:45:29rightly referred to as the education,
2:45:29 > 2:45:31health and care plans to provide necessary support.
2:45:31 > 2:45:33Every Member in this debate and in this House
2:45:33 > 2:45:38has casework on EHCPs.
2:45:38 > 2:45:41These arrangements are transforming the support available to children
2:45:41 > 2:45:44and young people by joining up services for zero
2:45:44 > 2:45:48to 25-year-olds-that is their scope-across education,
2:45:48 > 2:45:51health and social care and by focusing on positive outcomes.
2:45:51 > 2:45:55He is right to take up the casework, as I would myself.
2:45:55 > 2:46:00I think the performance of local authorities is vastly
2:46:01 > 2:46:02different across the country.
2:46:02 > 2:46:05I know from speaking to him outside this debate that he is working very
2:46:05 > 2:46:08closely with his local authority, as I would expect,
2:46:08 > 2:46:11and that he has been impressed by the improvements it has made.
2:46:11 > 2:46:14I do not doubt that that is because of the pressure
2:46:14 > 2:46:18that he has put on it.
2:46:18 > 2:46:20In my honourable friend's speech he used the term,
2:46:20 > 2:46:26which I wrote down, "The right support right from the start".
2:46:26 > 2:46:29I do not think that was an accident, because as a Member
2:46:29 > 2:46:32of Parliament I had an invitation today, as we all did,
2:46:32 > 2:46:34from the National Deaf Children's Society, which he referred to,
2:46:34 > 2:46:37requesting the pleasure of my company at an event called:
2:46:37 > 2:46:39"Technology and deaf children: Getting the right support,
2:46:39 > 2:46:40right from the start".
2:46:40 > 2:46:43Mr Speaker has very kindly allowed that to be in the state rooms
2:46:43 > 2:46:45in Speaker's House at lunchtime on 10 January.
2:46:45 > 2:46:48I think that will be an excellent event, and I hope it is well
2:46:48 > 2:46:51attended, I suspect it will be by all Members in this room.
2:46:51 > 2:46:52My honourable friend
2:46:52 > 2:46:57touched on special educational needs funding as well.
2:46:57 > 2:47:02The implementation of the new SEN system has been supported
2:47:02 > 2:47:06by significant new investment.
2:47:06 > 2:47:11That includes £70 million in '14-15, £113 million in '14 through to '17
2:47:11 > 2:47:15in the implementation funding, and £45 million in the same
2:47:15 > 2:47:21period for independent supporters for families.
2:47:21 > 2:47:31Ofsted and the Care Quality Commission are reviewing how
2:47:32 > 2:47:34all local authorities, authorities know about this, and their CCG
2:47:34 > 2:47:37partners work together to meet the needs of children with SEN
2:47:37 > 2:47:39as the EHCPs come into force.
2:47:39 > 2:47:40The assessment criteria are there, and are very
2:47:41 > 2:47:43much on their shoulders.
2:47:43 > 2:47:48My honourable friend the Member for Rochester and Strood
2:47:48 > 2:47:49gave a brilliant and very personal
2:47:49 > 2:47:50speech, if I may say so.
2:47:50 > 2:47:53It is never easy to do that in this place.
2:47:53 > 2:47:56It gets lots of retweets, but that is the easy bit,
2:47:56 > 2:47:58it is really hard to do it.
2:47:58 > 2:48:02She mentioned her mum's story, and I thought she spoke brilliantly.
2:48:02 > 2:48:04She used the term invisible disability, which the Honourable
2:48:04 > 2:48:07Member for Burnley also used.
2:48:07 > 2:48:10My honourable friend
2:48:10 > 2:48:13said that deafness could take many different forms and have
2:48:13 > 2:48:16impacts physical and mental.
2:48:16 > 2:48:20I thought she made the case really coherently.
2:48:20 > 2:48:22To touch again on my right honourable friend
2:48:22 > 2:48:24the Member for Hemel Hempstead, my former boss,
2:48:24 > 2:48:28for the record, I do not mind at all when former Ministers come
2:48:28 > 2:48:30to debates that I am responding to, especially when they are former
2:48:30 > 2:48:34Ministers for a Department that I am not responsible for.
2:48:34 > 2:48:39I thought he made the point very well about the scale of the issue
2:48:39 > 2:48:43and the hidden deafness in this country, and he gave his example
2:48:43 > 2:48:47of industrial causes of deafness.
2:48:47 > 2:48:51The Honourable Member for Edinburgh East
2:48:51 > 2:48:54told us about the BSL Act in Scotland
2:48:54 > 2:48:56and the ensuing national action plan, which he directed
2:48:56 > 2:48:59?colleagues to look at.
2:48:59 > 2:49:02I will direct colleagues in the UK Government to look at that.
2:49:02 > 2:49:06Hats off to him for his attempt at signing the start of his speech.
2:49:06 > 2:49:10I thought that was a very brave move, and I thank
2:49:10 > 2:49:13him for his remarks.
2:49:13 > 2:49:16The Honourable Member for Erith and Thamesmead
2:49:16 > 2:49:18spoke very well about loneliness.
2:49:18 > 2:49:22I wonder whether the loneliness commission that our former colleague
2:49:22 > 2:49:26Jo Cox set up touched on the issue of deafness and its impact
2:49:26 > 2:49:29on loneliness, I would be interested to learn from those involved
2:49:29 > 2:49:32whether it did.
2:49:32 > 2:49:34The Honourable Lady spoke about Jacob
2:49:34 > 2:49:35and the crowdfunding
2:49:35 > 2:49:41in her constituency for his cochlear implant.
2:49:41 > 2:49:44I do not know the details of his case, so it would be
2:49:44 > 2:49:47unfair for me to comment, but it sounds as though her
2:49:47 > 2:49:51community is showing incredible grace to that little boy.
2:49:51 > 2:49:54It would be wonderful to see him in the House
2:49:54 > 2:49:57when he has had his implant.
2:49:57 > 2:50:01She also raised the issue of the Access to Work cap again.
2:50:01 > 2:50:03My Department for Work and Pensions colleagues and I will write
2:50:03 > 2:50:13to her about her specific questions on numbers.
2:50:13 > 2:50:15The Honourable Member for West Lancashire
2:50:15 > 2:50:20spoke about her kidnap by the deaf community.
2:50:20 > 2:50:22Again, hers was a very emotional speech.
2:50:22 > 2:50:25I so wish she had done what she threatened to do
2:50:25 > 2:50:28and signed her entire speech, as long as she had given me
2:50:28 > 2:50:31a copy of it beforehand.
2:50:31 > 2:50:33I like to think I can cope, but I would not have
2:50:33 > 2:50:35coped with all of that.
2:50:35 > 2:50:37I thank her for her well made comments, especially
2:50:37 > 2:50:40about a single gateway.
2:50:40 > 2:50:43She is a member of the Health Committee, and I suspect
2:50:43 > 2:50:48that she is also a member of the all-party group,
2:50:48 > 2:50:54so perhaps she will make that suggestion to the new Minister
2:50:54 > 2:50:57for Disabled People, Health and Work and will talk
2:50:57 > 2:51:01about the cap on Access to Work when the group meets her.
2:51:01 > 2:51:02The Honourable Lady also referred to
2:51:02 > 2:51:04invisible disability.
2:51:04 > 2:51:08The Honourable Member for Linlithgow
2:51:08 > 2:51:11and East Falkirk made
2:51:11 > 2:51:15points about the gender gap and EU law post-Brexit.
2:51:15 > 2:51:19They definitely do not fall within my remit,
2:51:19 > 2:51:24but I will write to him.
2:51:24 > 2:51:30We have the European Union Bill, or the repeal
2:51:30 > 2:51:34Bill as it is colloquially known, and in the past week or so,
2:51:34 > 2:51:38we have had a taste of the issues relating to animal rights.
2:51:38 > 2:51:44I have to say, as a Government MP and a Government Minister,
2:51:44 > 2:51:46I take slight umbrage with the suggestion, although
2:51:46 > 2:51:49not by the Honourable
2:51:49 > 2:51:52Gentleman, that somehow we need the EU to have good rights relating
2:51:52 > 2:51:54to looking after animals in our country, let
2:51:54 > 2:51:55alone our citizens.
2:51:55 > 2:51:58I do not buy that for a minute.
2:51:58 > 2:52:01We will import that regulation through the Bill and then look at it
2:52:01 > 2:52:06as a sovereign Parliament and decide how we can improve on it.
2:52:06 > 2:52:08I am sure there are ways to do that.
2:52:08 > 2:52:11From what Members have said on the subject in this debate,
2:52:11 > 2:52:13and given the other Members who are interested,
2:52:13 > 2:52:16I somehow do not think that the issue will go unheard.
2:52:16 > 2:52:19I will leave a few minutes for the Honourable
2:52:19 > 2:52:23Member for Poplar and Limehouse to sum up.
2:52:23 > 2:52:26In conclusion, we have had a very interesting, honest debate.
2:52:26 > 2:52:30I hope I have been able to demonstrate to Honourable
2:52:30 > 2:52:35Members that across my now expanding portfolio,
2:52:35 > 2:52:37we have a strong frame-work for supporting people
2:52:37 > 2:52:42with hearing loss through a set of quality and commissioning
2:52:42 > 2:52:44criteria within a restricted budget, of course, that
2:52:44 > 2:52:45will always be the case.
2:52:45 > 2:52:47Setting the expectations for commissioners and providers
2:52:47 > 2:52:51is what we in the Department of Health are most interested in.
2:52:51 > 2:52:53The dedicated action plan on hearing loss
2:52:53 > 2:52:56is being spearheaded by NHS England, for which I am responsible,
2:52:56 > 2:53:01and the multi-agency approach is enshrined in the action plan.?
2:53:01 > 2:53:04We are doing a lot, but we can always do more.
2:53:04 > 2:53:08Some really good points have been made in today's debate.
2:53:08 > 2:53:10Whether more people are watching today's debate than "Pointless",
2:53:10 > 2:53:14I do not know, but if more people watched debates such as this,
2:53:14 > 2:53:18they would have a far better opinion of Parliament than some of them do.
2:53:18 > 2:53:21We have had a really good debate and have covered
2:53:21 > 2:53:22a huge amount of ground.
2:53:22 > 2:53:24I very much thank Honourable
2:53:24 > 2:53:26Members for their contributions, which have all been from the heart
2:53:26 > 2:53:28and incredibly well informed.
2:53:28 > 2:53:30I look forward to following up on many of the issues
2:53:30 > 2:53:33that have been raised.
2:53:34 > 2:53:37I am grateful for the opportunity to sum up, Ms Buck.
2:53:37 > 2:53:40Invariably, the Member who sums up such debates says,
2:53:40 > 2:53:43"We have had a good discussion."
2:53:43 > 2:53:45Not only is that the case today,
2:53:45 > 2:53:47but this has been an exceptional debate, and I thank everybody
2:53:47 > 2:53:48who has contributed.
2:53:48 > 2:53:51There has been a personal theme, but even those who did not raise
2:53:51 > 2:53:54a personal experience clearly have a grasp of the importance of
2:53:54 > 2:53:58the subject to their constituents.
2:53:58 > 2:54:00If any Honourable
2:54:00 > 2:54:04Members are not on the all-party group mailing list, they are now,
2:54:04 > 2:54:07but I suspect everybody already is.
2:54:07 > 2:54:10The Honourable Member for Milton Keynes South
2:54:10 > 2:54:12put his finger on the big issue.
2:54:12 > 2:54:14As others mentioned, this is a cross-departmental matter,
2:54:14 > 2:54:15so we need a champion.
2:54:15 > 2:54:17I will return to that in due course.
2:54:17 > 2:54:19My right honourable friend
2:54:19 > 2:54:22the Member for Wolverhampton South East
2:54:22 > 2:54:23spoke about cochlear implants and NICE.
2:54:23 > 2:54:26The Minister says that the work is now back in hand, it
2:54:26 > 2:54:28will be nine months late, but hopefully it is coming.
2:54:28 > 2:54:31The Honourable
2:54:31 > 2:54:32Member for Rochester and Strood,
2:54:32 > 2:54:34as the Minister said, covered her mum's story powerfully,
2:54:34 > 2:54:36bringing a tear to my eye.
2:54:36 > 2:54:39If she saw me wiping it, it is because it was such a great
2:54:39 > 2:54:41explanation of an individual's difficulty, told with clear
2:54:41 > 2:54:43personal commitment.
2:54:43 > 2:54:48She made a point about how important it is for organisations such
2:54:48 > 2:54:50as Auditory Verbal to get to children born deaf
2:54:50 > 2:54:53within the first three and a half years, when their brains can
2:54:53 > 2:54:57still learn to speak, after that, it is far too late.
2:54:57 > 2:55:03That is why the pathway is so important.
2:55:03 > 2:55:06The Honourable Member for Eastbourne
2:55:06 > 2:55:08also spoke powerfully about his personal experience.
2:55:08 > 2:55:12I was not sure whether he was making a bid to come back as the chair
2:55:12 > 2:55:14of the all-party parliamentary group, he will need to wait
2:55:14 > 2:55:17for the annual general meeting, but he is a great vice-chairman,
2:55:17 > 2:55:19and I will be pleased to see him there.
2:55:19 > 2:55:25The Honourable Member for Waveney and the right Honourable
2:55:25 > 2:55:28Member for Hemel Hempstead both called me their honourable friend
2:55:28 > 2:55:31that does not do me any favours on this side of the House,
2:55:31 > 2:55:32but I know what it means.
2:55:32 > 2:55:35We have done a lot of good work on a number of Committees,
2:55:35 > 2:55:37especially on fire, and we are friends.
2:55:37 > 2:55:40That tells people outside the House ?that although we might not often be
2:55:40 > 2:55:43in the same Division Lobby, we have friends across the Chamber
2:55:43 > 2:55:45and we work together when there is a common purpose.
2:55:45 > 2:55:46That is really important.
2:55:46 > 2:55:48My honourable friend the Member for Bristol East
2:55:48 > 2:55:49spoke about IQIPS and accreditation.
2:55:49 > 2:55:50The right Honourable
2:55:50 > 2:55:52Member for Hemel Hempstead, with his experience as Minister
2:55:52 > 2:55:55of State on Access to Work, is a powerful ally.
2:55:55 > 2:55:56The Honourable Member for Edinburgh East
2:55:56 > 2:55:58who just left to catch his train,
2:55:58 > 2:56:00talked about money being available for BSL lessons here.
2:56:00 > 2:56:04That ought to be the case, and I am sure that it is the case,
2:56:04 > 2:56:05we just need to explore it.
2:56:05 > 2:56:08He made a point by signing, reminding me that so much of sign
2:56:08 > 2:56:12language is common sense, such as "book".
2:56:12 > 2:56:15He used the sign for "Scotland", which is bagpipes.
2:56:15 > 2:56:19That tickles me every time I see it.
2:56:19 > 2:56:24He made a clear point about the power of legislation.
2:56:25 > 2:56:26My honourable friend
2:56:26 > 2:56:29the Member for Erith and Thamesmead
2:56:29 > 2:56:31told a story about Jacob and crowdfunding.
2:56:31 > 2:56:38It was powerful, as was the personal story told by my honourable friend
2:56:38 > 2:56:39the Member for Blaydon.
2:56:39 > 2:56:43My honourable friend
2:56:43 > 2:56:45the Member for West Lancashire
2:56:45 > 2:56:47told her stories about having BSL as her first language,
2:56:47 > 2:56:49and the Access to Work issues.
2:56:49 > 2:56:52She spoke about Liverpool minicoms, and her dad, of whom she is clearly
2:56:52 > 2:56:53and rightly very proud.
2:56:53 > 2:56:56I am sure that it touched everybody in the room.
2:56:56 > 2:56:58The politics came from the three Front-Bench speakers,
2:56:58 > 2:57:01the place went back to normal when they started talking.
2:57:01 > 2:57:04I mean no disrespect at all, they deal with things
2:57:04 > 2:57:07from a political point of view.
2:57:07 > 2:57:12Judging by their speeches, the Honourable
2:57:12 > 2:57:15Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk,
2:57:15 > 2:57:18my honourable friend the Member for Burnley
2:57:18 > 2:57:19and the Minister
2:57:19 > 2:57:21clearly understand the issues, and we are grateful for that.
2:57:21 > 2:57:23Finally, we need a champion in Government.
2:57:23 > 2:57:24BSL needs a champion in Government.
2:57:24 > 2:57:27At some point, a Department or a Secretary of State will have
2:57:27 > 2:57:30to say to a Minister, "You're the person for the job."
2:57:30 > 2:57:33Then we can all go support that person and get a better
2:57:33 > 2:57:34hearing in Government.
2:57:34 > 2:57:40This has been a powerful debate.
2:57:40 > 2:57:47I am grateful to both signers for being here.
2:57:47 > 2:57:50Hear, hear!
2:57:50 > 2:57:51And to the House authorities
2:57:51 > 2:57:52for facilitating that.
2:57:52 > 2:57:54I hope that this is the first of many opportunities
2:57:55 > 2:57:56and becomes the norm.
2:57:56 > 2:57:59I am grateful for the opportunity to say these few words in closing.
2:57:59 > 2:58:04On behalf of us all, I thank the two signers,
2:58:04 > 2:58:09Sally McGreavey and Richard Law.
2:58:09 > 2:58:13We greatly appreciate their work.