:00:04. > :00:09.choice, it is an obligation. What happens when a soldier says, no? My
:00:09. > :00:14.guest today Joe Glenton was that a soldier. In order to rejoin the
:00:14. > :00:20.army, he fled to Asia and then Australia. He eventually returned
:00:20. > :00:26.but spent time in a military prison. He emerged a convinced anti-war
:00:26. > :00:36.campaigner. So is he is a story of courage, cowardice or something
:00:36. > :00:56.
:00:56. > :01:02.much more complicated? Joe Glenton, welcome to the
:01:02. > :01:09.programme. Thank you.I will begin by taking you back a decade. Why
:01:09. > :01:14.did you want to be a soldier? I think, for most guys joining the
:01:14. > :01:19.Army, it is a combination of things. For a long time, I convinced myself
:01:19. > :01:24.it was just purely economic. As I started to write the book, I
:01:24. > :01:31.started to analyse it. The underlying reasons what economic
:01:31. > :01:37.most of the time. I needed the money. There is a germ of truth
:01:37. > :01:44.about the poverty of a recruiting sergeant. There was a set of poll
:01:44. > :01:50.for ideological factors. -- poll for. It has something to do with
:01:50. > :01:54.social approval, masculinity, heroism. British identity is
:01:54. > :02:00.founded quite firmly on a historical narrative, and Gabriel
:02:00. > :02:05.identity. I will stop you for a minute. Then you were 22 years old,
:02:05. > :02:09.thinking about it, I bet you're not using that language. At the time,
:02:09. > :02:13.it was a simple question of whether you're attracted by the notion of
:02:13. > :02:20.putting on the uniform and serving Queen and country. There's at the
:02:20. > :02:27.time must have been yes. retrospect, obviously. But at the
:02:27. > :02:32.time, I didn't understand those ideas. I can look at it now and say
:02:32. > :02:36.it is a mix of those two things. A mix of the economic things and
:02:36. > :02:40.about wearing the uniform and serving your country. You were a
:02:40. > :02:47.patriot? I was not a conscious of patriot but those ideas are
:02:47. > :02:52.ingrained in us. Yes, you may have not been as a thought for as you
:02:52. > :02:56.are now and they're not have gone as much analysis as now. But you
:02:56. > :03:01.must have asked yourself, could a cure for my country? Would I
:03:01. > :03:07.sacrifice my life and my mate' on the frontline? You must have
:03:07. > :03:12.thought those things. You don't know if that will happen to you.
:03:12. > :03:18.You think about it in the abstract. Anyone joining up, you talk about
:03:18. > :03:24.it with the guys and considerate. At the time, I was willing to do
:03:24. > :03:29.that. I had practical ideas of what the military dollars and its role
:03:29. > :03:33.in society. It is very well marketed. When you go to a
:03:33. > :03:38.lucrative offers, they know what they are talking about. There have
:03:38. > :03:44.polished language and glossy brochures. You enjoyed it.Yes.
:03:44. > :03:51.read about it. He felt it made use a stronger person. A lot of
:03:51. > :03:55.positives. Yes.Then you go to Afghanistan. It is your first peek
:03:55. > :04:00.overseas deployment. You add up spending seven months there. You
:04:00. > :04:04.are based in Kandahar. Not be the frontline but doing important work,
:04:04. > :04:12.mostly logistics, helping the military machine. He seemed to have
:04:12. > :04:20.thrived and done very well. Yes. During my time, the does emerge.
:04:20. > :04:26.But you are able to put them aside. -- doubts. The aim is, you crack on.
:04:26. > :04:31.That is the phrase. You get on with it. I don't miss the institution of
:04:31. > :04:38.the military. Understand it better. But I miss the sense of identity.
:04:38. > :04:45.people from varied backgrounds but portly similarly, from similar
:04:45. > :04:49.economic backgrounds. Very compelling things. You could have
:04:49. > :04:55.sat and build the sense of community without the military. But
:04:55. > :05:00.they did very well themselves. They are experts at it. I suppose what I
:05:00. > :05:04.am getting too, and this is for your case is fascinating, you
:05:04. > :05:08.became Filey unusual. A complete rarity in the military. You served
:05:08. > :05:12.in Afghanistan and won and promotion because you're commanding
:05:12. > :05:18.officers were so pleased with your performance. You were the soldier
:05:18. > :05:24.who said no, when it came to the proposition that he would go back
:05:24. > :05:30.after my months and go back to Afghanistan. You said no. Why?
:05:30. > :05:36.first thing is, I'm not the first. There are others. The military is a
:05:36. > :05:44.closed world. You do not hear about it. I'll tell you why. Most of them
:05:44. > :05:50.did not won away like you did. lot of guys refused at have
:05:50. > :05:54.conscientious objections. You could out of dead boy day and do not
:05:54. > :05:58.fancy it, it is something it develops with no control over it. -
:05:58. > :06:03.- get out of bed. It goes against the grain of you been to go back
:06:03. > :06:10.and serve. But you do not actually say, I have a conscientious
:06:10. > :06:14.objection. A idea. In the military, there is a sacrosanct hierarchical
:06:14. > :06:21.the chain of command. When I was told I was going back, I went to
:06:21. > :06:28.the chain of command. The corporate talks to a sergeant he talks to a
:06:28. > :06:31.captain. I said, I'm not going back. This is why. At that point, but was
:06:31. > :06:40.a British ring the concierges objection. You are not told how to
:06:40. > :06:45.do it. I was familiar with the concept of conscientious objection.
:06:45. > :06:49.The onus is on them to take me through the process. The concierges
:06:49. > :06:55.abjection, remember, it is thought about it a specific way. When
:06:55. > :07:00.people think about it, they think about what will one. It misses
:07:00. > :07:05.about 99 years of resistance by soldiers. The process is there. It
:07:05. > :07:11.is a riot. You are allowed to do it. You can get to the board and they
:07:11. > :07:17.rejected. They were half a dozen at the MoD that acknowledged that
:07:17. > :07:22.freeze Afghan campaign had consciously -- a seat their
:07:22. > :07:29.objections and been granted it. The failed to go through the process.
:07:29. > :07:39.In the military, you don't go round the chain of command. As a soldier,
:07:39. > :07:41.
:07:41. > :07:49.I went to Mike came up command. I If I had gone back, how could I
:07:49. > :07:55.have done my job? The man next to it is not in the game. What I am
:07:55. > :08:00.struggling with his, you said you formally started a process. It had
:08:00. > :08:06.not finished. There was no per appeals procedure. It could be the
:08:06. > :08:10.case. On the eve of deployment, as you're about to go to Afghanistan,
:08:10. > :08:14.rather than discuss it with your chain of command or go through
:08:14. > :08:22.formal procedures, he bought a plane to go to Bangkok and let out
:08:22. > :08:26.of the country. This is where the post-traumatic stress came in. If I
:08:26. > :08:36.was in a better state of mind, I tried to use the procedure to go to
:08:36. > :08:39.
:08:39. > :08:44.He was a lot number a lot of people in the army. -- the rules are not
:08:44. > :08:50.known by a lot of people in the army. When you are under pressure,
:08:50. > :08:55.you do the best you can. But I went to my chain of command. I try to
:08:55. > :09:00.pursue it. I am a little bit confused. Are you saying that you
:09:00. > :09:02.should not have gone back to Afghanistan? You were in a mental
:09:02. > :09:08.distressed state? You were suffering from post-traumatic
:09:08. > :09:14.stress disorder? Or that you have some fundamental moral and ethical
:09:14. > :09:20.objection to being involved in that particular conflict? It is not that
:09:20. > :09:24.confusing. I tried to peace to this. Had I not been ill at the time, I
:09:24. > :09:31.might have done it better. The background it is of post-traumatic
:09:31. > :09:37.stress. The onus is on them. It is on the chain of command. I could
:09:37. > :09:41.have done it. The fact is, whatever the background, he ended up