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0:00:02 > 0:00:07- These were the shocking conditions - on Carmelo Gale's farm...
0:00:07 > 0:00:09- ..near Llandysul in 2015.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11- A smokies production unit.
0:00:11 > 0:00:15- Illegal meat sold - on the black market.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19- There was nothing dirty - about that meat.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22- Nothing dirty. Come on, Carmelo.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26- We have a right to slaughter - our animals on the farm.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29- They're killed the same way - wherever you go.
0:00:29 > 0:00:34- Some scientists claim that smokies - can be dangerous to eat.
0:00:34 > 0:00:40- The burning is non-uniform and these - pathogens can survive the process.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44- It can lead to severe, sometimes - fatal, human health consequences.
0:00:44 > 0:00:49- With Brexit on the horizon, - others are calling for legalisation.
0:00:50 > 0:00:56- A lot of people moved to Britain - from West Africa. They want smokies.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58- On tonight's Y Byd ar Bedwar...
0:00:58 > 0:01:01- ..are smokies a case - of smoke without fire?
0:01:12 > 0:01:16- Smokies is the burnt meat - of goats or old sheep.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20- We received this footage - from a Welsh group...
0:01:20 > 0:01:22- ..who want smokies legalised.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27- This was a controlled experiment...
0:01:27 > 0:01:30- ..to show that the meat - was safe to eat.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39- The carcass is burnt - with the skin still on it.
0:01:39 > 0:01:44- According to people who eat smokies, - it gives the meat an unique flavour.
0:01:46 > 0:01:51- There are concerns that the process - creates dangerous chemicals...
0:01:51 > 0:01:54- ..and the meat - becomes a haven for bacteria.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57- Smokies are illegal - under European law.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04- For the past year, I've been - researching the world of smokies.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08- Today, I'm heading to a secret - location where meat is on the menu.
0:02:10 > 0:02:11- So this is it.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15- Kebab. Skin-on sheep or goat.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18- Smokies.
0:02:21 > 0:02:26- Janet Symmons has invited me - for Sunday dinner.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29- She's part of a campaign - to legalise smokies.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33- Before we talk, - she wants me to taste the meat.
0:02:35 > 0:02:36- What have we got on here?
0:02:36 > 0:02:39- What have we got on here?- - This is skin-on goat.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41- The skin's on.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43- The skin's on.- - That's been smoked.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45- It's illegal at the minute.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47- Yes, so you are...!
0:02:48 > 0:02:50- I'm eating illegal meat. - Let's give it a try.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57- What do you think?
0:02:57 > 0:02:59- What do you think?- - I can taste the smoke.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02- It gives it a different, - distinct flavour.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07- Originally from Ghana, - Janet and her friends...
0:03:07 > 0:03:10- ..are amongst - the 180,000 of people in Britain...
0:03:11 > 0:03:13- ..who have roots in West Africa.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17- Smokies is a popular dish - in that part of the world.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21- The goat is the one with the skin.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23- It's got skin on?
0:03:23 > 0:03:28- They admit that there's an element - of risk to eating the meat in Wales.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31- Why do you want to eat it - with the skin on?
0:03:32 > 0:03:35- Because that's the meat - I was brought up on, all of us.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39- Most of West Africans. When - I first came here, it was legal.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43- You could get it. It wasn't common - but you could get it legally.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48- You then had change because - you adopted the EU regulations.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50- It became illegal.
0:03:50 > 0:03:56- It has now forced us to buy it - from every Tom, Dick and Harry...
0:03:56 > 0:03:59- ..that we can get it from, - which is unhealthy.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05- Tom, Dick or Harry - aren't here today...
0:04:05 > 0:04:09- ..but at the table is one man - caught producing smokies.
0:04:11 > 0:04:12- What's the verdict?
0:04:12 > 0:04:15- What's the verdict?- - Carmelo Gale has a long history...
0:04:15 > 0:04:18- ..of running illegal abattoirs.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21- He's come to our attention - in the past.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29- Back in 2005, Y Byd ar Bedwar - filmed him addressing an audience...
0:04:29 > 0:04:31- ..in Llanddewi-Brefi.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36- At the time, - he was known as the Smokey King.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41- Four years ago, dirty meat.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44- Dirty meat, not fit for a dog.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46- What was my answer to that?
0:04:47 > 0:04:50- Quite right, - it's too expensive to give to them.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58- He's spent time in jail - for producing illegal meat...
0:04:59 > 0:05:03- ..but he insists he's battling - for people's rights and freedom.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08- Who's fighting - for these ethnic people?
0:05:08 > 0:05:11- Our unions aren't fighting for them.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15- You have the halal trade. No-one - from the unions speaks about halal.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18- You have the smokie trade - - they're scared.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25- Over ten years later, I wanted to - know what had become of Carmelo...
0:05:26 > 0:05:29- ..and his campaign.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33- I met a sheep farmer - from near Lampeter in Ceredigion.
0:05:33 > 0:05:38- Earlier in the month, the Institute - for Public Policy warned...
0:05:39 > 0:05:44- ..that the future was bleak - for Welsh sheep farmers post-Brexit.
0:05:44 > 0:05:48- There are concerns especially - after the Government revealed...
0:05:48 > 0:05:51- ..their research into Brexit.
0:05:51 > 0:05:57- They don't believe there's a - secure future for lamb after Brexit.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00- They're fearful of that - and that's bad news.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05- With increased costs - and the price rising very little...
0:06:05 > 0:06:07- ..it's going to be very difficult.
0:06:08 > 0:06:15- The Cwmann farmer is a member of the - National Sheep Association, the NSA.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17- They're a prominent - farming society...
0:06:18 > 0:06:21- ..that formed a committee - to lobby politicians...
0:06:21 > 0:06:24- ..to legalise smokies.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26- Andrew Jones supports the call.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32- Some viewers will be surprised - to hear someone like you...
0:06:32 > 0:06:35- ..calling for smokies - to be legalised.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37- There is a stigma, as you say.
0:06:38 > 0:06:39- There is a stigma.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43- When you mention smokies, it's - a dirty word, it's a hot potato.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45- People don't want to hear about it.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48- They want to brush it - under the carpet.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51- It should be legalised, - there's a market and demand for it.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57- If it is legalised, - it'll add value to old sheep.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01- The old sheep, - they're at the end of their lives.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05- If we can add some value to them, - it will be a boost...
0:07:05 > 0:07:07- ..especially if Brexit affects us.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14- As a sheep gets older, - its value diminishes.
0:07:14 > 0:07:18- The same sheep can treble in price - if it's sold as a smokie.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21- Amongst the farmers - in Tregaron mart...
0:07:21 > 0:07:26- ..there are plenty of sympathetic - voices for legalising smokies.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30- It does go on in rural Wales...
0:07:30 > 0:07:35- ..and it's a way of selling sheep - that hold no value for us.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38- The cheapest sheep, - the Welsh sheep...
0:07:38 > 0:07:43- ..and it's a market for these sheep - when no other market exists.
0:07:45 > 0:07:50- If there's a market for smokies, - we should service that market.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53- I'm worried about things - that are happening.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56- A lot of sheep are being stolen.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59- They say that's what happens - to a lot of these sheep.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03- They're killed on farms - or in back streets...
0:08:03 > 0:08:05- ..and become smokies illegally.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10- If this is legalised, - the industry will benefit.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16- You hear whispers - that some people are at it...
0:08:16 > 0:08:19- ..but you don't know if it's true.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22- If there are whispers out there...
0:08:22 > 0:08:25- ..they'll soon be heard - by people in legal circles.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29- Not many people - have been punished for doing it yet.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36- Back at the Sunday lunch, - I speak to Carmelo Gale.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40- He wants to show me - a collection of different meats.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43- Some are legal while others aren't.
0:08:43 > 0:08:48- He's been prosecuted many times - for crime linked to smokies.
0:08:48 > 0:08:53- He says the trouble he's had with - the law has affected his health.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57- How do you feel - after being imprisoned...
0:08:58 > 0:09:01- ..for something you feel - is quite legitimate?
0:09:01 > 0:09:03- How does that make you feel?
0:09:03 > 0:09:08- I feel bad about it. It's not only - affected me but my family too.
0:09:10 > 0:09:15- Sometimes, I call myself - the sacrificed lamb.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18- That day, - he was under a cloud again.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22- He was waiting to be tried - for a seventh time.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27- He faced accusations of running an - illegal abattoir to produce smokies.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30- You're in court later this year.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33- Tell me more about that case.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35- I'm not going to tell you anything.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39- There's no point talking about it. - You can speak to me after it.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46- Carmelo Gale isn't the only farmer - in West Wales...
0:09:46 > 0:09:50- ..who's been imprisoned - for producing smokies.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55- In 2005, in Elgin Sheriff Court...
0:09:55 > 0:09:59- ..Julian Jones was imprisoned - for six months...
0:09:59 > 0:10:02- ..for running an illegal abattoir.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04- Smokies were on his menu too.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08- By 2010, he was back in Wales.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10- He was caught near Newport...
0:10:10 > 0:10:13- ..transporting smokies in a van - on the M4.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16- He was given another 15 months - in prison...
0:10:16 > 0:10:20- ..for producing meat - unfit for human consumption.
0:10:20 > 0:10:25- Two years ago, the Welsh speaker - was due back in court once more.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30- Here, in Swansea Crown Court...
0:10:30 > 0:10:34- ..Julian Jones and Robert Gordon - Thomas, also of West Wales...
0:10:35 > 0:10:39- ..faced accusations of producing - smokies on Jones' family farm...
0:10:39 > 0:10:42- ..Bangor Teifi, near Llandysul.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46- Thomas was sent to prison for - 28 weeks, suspended for two years...
0:10:46 > 0:10:51- ..and given 200 hours of community - service for his part in the deceit.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54- Jones didn't appear in court.
0:10:54 > 0:11:01- He'd absconded. To this day, - no-one's quite sure where he is.
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0:11:13 > 0:11:15- City Road, Cardiff.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19- I'm on my way to a shop - that sells goods...
0:11:19 > 0:11:22- ..to the city's African community.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30- At the back of the shop, owner - Janet Symmons sells unusual meats.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36- There's the actual leg. - One leg of a cow.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40- It doesn't look - the tastiest thing in the world.
0:11:40 > 0:11:44- I agree, but it's very, very tasty - when it's cooked.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49- The way we prepare it - is very mouth-watering.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55- One thing she can't sell is smokies.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58- She says the meat - is in high demand...
0:11:58 > 0:12:01- ..but she has to - disappoint customers...
0:12:02 > 0:12:05- ..because selling it is illegal.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09- People are making money.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12- Why can't the Welsh farmers - make money?
0:12:12 > 0:12:17- Why can't they be slaughtered - in a proper clean abattoir...
0:12:17 > 0:12:21- ..which will benefit - the whole country and benefit us?
0:12:22 > 0:12:27- She has a petition in her shop - to try and reverse the EU law...
0:12:28 > 0:12:30- ..and legalise smokies...
0:12:30 > 0:12:35- ..to stop people relying - on the black market for smokies.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40- We are having to buy this meat - underground.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44- We don't know where they are being - slaughtered...
0:12:44 > 0:12:47- ..how long ago the animal - was injected.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50- We don't know anything. - It's more dangerous.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54- But because that is what - we're used to...
0:12:54 > 0:12:57- ..we are prepared to take some risk.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01- There's been a question mark...
0:13:01 > 0:13:04- ..over the safety of smokies - for over a decade.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11- I visited Liverpool University - to meet an expert...
0:13:11 > 0:13:14- ..in public health and food hygiene.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17- The Food Standards Agency - commissioned him...
0:13:17 > 0:13:19- ..to study the safety of smokies.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23- What we have here is E.coli 0157.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26- It is commonly found - on sheep's skin.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28- Then we have here salmonella.
0:13:28 > 0:13:33- Again, it is inhabitant - on the sheep's skin.
0:13:33 > 0:13:40- It is found on 8-10% of sheep's skin - produced in the UK.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42- Cooking meat - usually kills bacteria...
0:13:43 > 0:13:47- ..but this scientist claims that - the process of creating smokies...
0:13:48 > 0:13:51- ..isn't enough to prevent E.coli - and salmonella.
0:13:52 > 0:13:57- The burning is non-uniform and these - pathogens can survive the process.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00- They can end up being - in the final product...
0:14:00 > 0:14:05- ..and lead to severe, sometimes - fatal, human health consequences.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09- In 2006, - studies by Bristol University...
0:14:09 > 0:14:14- ..claimed that smokies could - be produced that were safe to eat.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18- Dr Antic's report in 2015 - claimed more work was needed...
0:14:19 > 0:14:21- ..before a final conclusion - could be reached.
0:14:21 > 0:14:26- Only when we gather - sufficient scientific evidence...
0:14:26 > 0:14:29- ..we can do - a proper risk-assessment.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33- Then, we can come up - with the final conclusion...
0:14:33 > 0:14:37- ..whether the production of - smoke skin on sheep meat is safe.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40- It is comparable - to what we have now...
0:14:41 > 0:14:44- ..conventional skin-off - sheep meat production.
0:14:47 > 0:14:52- A month after Liverpool University's - report was published...
0:14:52 > 0:14:56- ..Trading Standards officers visited - Bangor Teifi farm near Llandysul.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59- This is Carmelo Gale's farm.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06- There was evidence that someone - had been producing smokies there.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10- Officers discovered - piles of animal remains...
0:15:11 > 0:15:14- ..blood seeping into the soil...
0:15:14 > 0:15:16- ..and burnt sheep's heads.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20- One of the officers who visited - the farm was Rhys Harries.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23- As you can see in the pictures...
0:15:23 > 0:15:27- ..there are a lot of footprints - with red in them.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32- The sheep is hung, slaughtered - and is bled out onto the mud below.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34- There's buckets of heads, etc.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38- This is where - they are being slaughtered.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42- It's not - a very hygienic environment.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47- Rhys Harries was sent to the farm - after police stopped this van...
0:15:47 > 0:15:49- ..on the M4 near Swansea.
0:15:49 > 0:15:55- Carmelo Gale had rented the van. - 50 smokies were inside.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59- I don't think anyone would be happy - to eat meat from this environment.
0:15:59 > 0:16:03- If anyone had seen that the meat - was produced in this manner...
0:16:03 > 0:16:05- ..no-one would want to eat it.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10- In November 2017, - Carmelo Gale pleaded guilty...
0:16:10 > 0:16:14- ..to charges - of running an illegal abattoir...
0:16:14 > 0:16:17- ..and other charges - relating to food hygiene.
0:16:17 > 0:16:22- He was sentenced in Swansea Crown - Court to eight months of prison...
0:16:22 > 0:16:24- ..suspended for two years.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29- Since his court case, I've spoken - to Carmelo Gale many times...
0:16:30 > 0:16:32- ..and asked him - for another interview.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36- He says he's ready - to speak to us again...
0:16:36 > 0:16:39- ..but he hasn't confirmed - a time or location.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43- This morning, he said - he was free and willing to meet me.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48- I'm on my way to his friend's farm - in South Ceredigion.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54- Smokies can sell for 200 - on the black market.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59- I wanted to ask if profit or the - rights of the African community...
0:17:00 > 0:17:04- ..was behind Carmelo Gale's - interest in smokies.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08- The truth is you wanted - to make some more money.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11- You had a market - that wanted this produce.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15- You broke rules - and ignored regulations...
0:17:15 > 0:17:18- ..to give them the food illegally.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21- I'll tell you one thing, - I have no money.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24- I've almost become - a bankrupt business.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27- Don't tell me it's for profit. - It's not.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31- Have you seen this? - This was your farm.
0:17:34 > 0:17:35- What's your response to that?
0:17:35 > 0:17:37- What's your response to that?- - No comment.
0:17:37 > 0:17:42- Aren't you ashamed in any way - that you're giving people food...
0:17:42 > 0:17:46- ..after slaughtering animals - in those conditions?
0:17:46 > 0:17:48- I have nothing to say about it.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50- Don't you want to say sorry?
0:17:51 > 0:17:56- Do you want to apologise to people - who ate food produced in that way?
0:17:56 > 0:18:00- Everyone knows what they eat. - Everything is slaughtered.
0:18:00 > 0:18:02- Everyone knows how it's done.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06- You portray yourself as a man - looking after people's rights.
0:18:07 > 0:18:08- Yes.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11- When you see those photos...
0:18:11 > 0:18:14- ..if you wanted - to be a freedom fighter...
0:18:14 > 0:18:19- ..shouldn't you do things properly - and as hygienically as possible?
0:18:19 > 0:18:21- That would get people on your side.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23- There was nothing dirty - about that meat.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26- Nothing dirty. Come on, Carmelo.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30- We have a right to slaughter - our animals on the farm.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33- They're killed the same way - wherever you go.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38- What about the way you transported - animals, in the back of a van?
0:18:38 > 0:18:41- That's no way to transport meat.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45- I'm not saying a thing. - Everyone knew what it was.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49- He was happy to give his views - on legalisation...
0:18:49 > 0:18:54- ..but he wasn't happy - with my line of questioning.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59- You don't give a fuck. - You're out of order.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03- My son and daughter begged me - not to come here today.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07- They begged me because you were - going to drop me in the shit.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13- I also wanted to find Julian Jones, - the other West Wales farmer...
0:19:14 > 0:19:18- ..who has a long history - of producing and providing smokies.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22- He left the country in 2015 - to avoid prosecution.
0:19:23 > 0:19:30- On a website for ex-pats, - we found a Julian from Wales...
0:19:30 > 0:19:32- ..now living in Cambodia.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35- He was using a profile - named J smokies.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38- He was searching for land to rent - in Sihanoukville.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41- He also wanted to buy goats.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45- When we spoke to one man who said - he was in contact with him...
0:19:46 > 0:19:49- ..he said that Julian - was short of cash.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52- He would only speak to us for a fee.
0:19:52 > 0:19:56- We weren't ready to strike - a bargain with him.
0:19:57 > 0:20:02- I visited the farm where his mother - and wife still live near Llandysul.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05- They weren't ready - to speak to us on camera.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08- They said they weren't - in touch with him.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11- They hadn't heard from him - in two years.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13- The case against him is still open.
0:20:23 > 0:20:29- Some more respectable faces support - the campaign to legalise smokies.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31- With Britain leaving the EU...
0:20:32 > 0:20:34- ..sheep farmer and MP Glyn Davies...
0:20:35 > 0:20:38- ..can see an opportunity - for Welsh farmers.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41- We're in the middle - of leaving the EU.
0:20:42 > 0:20:49- We can ensure that producing - smokies is done safely.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55- I think we can do that. - There's a good market.
0:20:55 > 0:21:00- A lot of people moved to Britain - from West Africa. They want smokies.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04- Farmers in Wales keep older sheep. - They want to sell them.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07- It's a missed opportunity.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10- The politician accepts - that legalisation...
0:21:10 > 0:21:14- ..will be low on the - Brexit minister's priority list...
0:21:14 > 0:21:18- ..but he will push the case - on behalf of Welsh farmers.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21- It's important to me. - I represent Mid Wales.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26- I've worked throughout my life - in the sheep sector.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30- I understand how important this is.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35- It's quite a responsibility for me - to raise this point in Westminster.
0:21:35 > 0:21:36- That's what I'm doing.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40- Back in Cardiff, - Janet Symmons continues to work...
0:21:41 > 0:21:44- ..on behalf of the African community - to legalise smokies.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46- For this business woman...
0:21:47 > 0:21:51- ..the battle goes deeper than - winning the right to eat the meat.
0:21:51 > 0:21:58- We feel that our taste - is being suppressed.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02- They're giving the kosher - and they're giving the halal...
0:22:02 > 0:22:04- ..but we are not supposed - to have ours.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08- Why? We are also here - in this country.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12- One man who considers himself - a friend of the African community...
0:22:12 > 0:22:14- ..is Carmelo Gale.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18- He's been prosecuted seven times - for crimes linked to smokies...
0:22:18 > 0:22:21- ..but he doesn't consider himself - a criminal.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25- You talk about all the bad things - but none of the good things.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28- You've had the chance - to talk about those.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31- We also have to ask - about the bad things.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36- You ask more about the bad things - than the good things.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40- I find it hard to understand. - You're not helping yourself.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43- I'm not going to talk much more.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46- Talk about the benefits. - People want to eat it.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48- Farmers are suffering...
0:22:48 > 0:22:52- ..because they're not paid enough - for their produce.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54- In his recent court case...
0:22:54 > 0:22:58- ..his solicitor said - that Gale was now separated...
0:22:58 > 0:23:02- ..living in a caravan - and suffering with depression.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05- At 61 years of age, - he says the years...
0:23:05 > 0:23:08- ..of living - in the world of smokies are over.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10- It took over my life.
0:23:10 > 0:23:15- It affected me, my family - told me to leave it alone.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17- I was too much of a donkey.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22- Because I was such a donkey, - it affected my health.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26- The fight had taken over - my life and my mind.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29- But I still believe strongly in it.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46- S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.
0:23:46 > 0:23:47- .