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0:00:12 > 0:00:16- We're here in the old Llwynrhydowen - chapel, Pontsian, Llandysul.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18- I'm Wyn Thomas.
0:00:18 > 0:00:23- I'm an Unitarian minister for - six chapels in the Llandysul area.
0:00:24 > 0:00:30- I'm a farmer's son from Pontsian and - I've been a minister for 14 years.
0:00:31 > 0:00:36- Throughout that time, I hid - a major secret about my sexuality.
0:00:37 > 0:00:45- A lot of people find it hard - to tell family and friends...
0:00:45 > 0:00:48- ..and to society in general, - that they are gay.
0:00:49 > 0:00:54- That's because of the natural - conservatism that exists in Wales.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00- Homosexual relationships - were decriminalised over 50 years.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05- Tonight, I'm meeting men who battled - prejudice over the decades.
0:01:05 > 0:01:10- I'll ask them how difficult was it - for them to say, "This is who I am."
0:01:12 > 0:01:14- I meet a teacher...
0:01:17 > 0:01:19- ..a Conservative...
0:01:22 > 0:01:25- ..and a former organiser - of the National Eisteddfod.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36- I like that one actually. - I know you're out of focus.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43- Three months ago, - Matthew and I got married.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48- Until then, very few people, apart - from close family, knew I was gay.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51- It was a very special day.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54- I enjoyed every minute...
0:01:54 > 0:01:58- ..but I spent - parts of the day crying.
0:01:58 > 0:02:05- I felt it was the climax - of years of lying...
0:02:05 > 0:02:09- ..of hiding, of worrying - and feeling scared.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13- Suddenly, I felt relief and freedom.
0:02:14 > 0:02:19- I was very aware - that our marriage...
0:02:20 > 0:02:27- ..would be a statement, not only - of our love and our relationship...
0:02:27 > 0:02:32- ..but of what we are and what I am.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37- Matthew and I had been together - for 14 years.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41- Finally, we could be honest - about our relationship.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46- The feeling of having to lie - was the most difficult feeling.
0:02:47 > 0:02:52- Often, something would happen, - something would come up...
0:02:52 > 0:02:56- ..and you felt you had to lie - to protect the truth.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01- Until 2013, it wasn't possible - for same-sex couples to get married.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06- Until 1967, a homosexual - relationship was illegal.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09- Even after that, over the decades...
0:03:10 > 0:03:13- ..a lot of gay men have felt - the need to hide the truth...
0:03:14 > 0:03:16- ..about their sexuality.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21- I'm on a journey to try and discover - more about the experiences...
0:03:22 > 0:03:24- ..of gay men in the past - and see what effect it's had...
0:03:25 > 0:03:27- ..on the lives of people - like myself and my husband.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32- I consider it a privilege - to meet and speak to older people...
0:03:32 > 0:03:36- ..who've been through these - experiences during a different age.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41- Some of them lived through a time - when homosexuality was illegal.
0:03:41 > 0:03:47- The battles they fought has given - someone like me so much freedom.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05- My journey takes me to a seaside - village on the North Wales coast...
0:04:05 > 0:04:09- ..to the home of a man who's - constantly battled against the tide.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14- Roy Owen is preparing for a meeting - of the Conway Diners' Club...
0:04:15 > 0:04:17- ..a diners' club for gay men.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20- It was formed almost 30 years ago.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24- Roy says that most members - are in their 60s and 70s.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28- How many members do you have?
0:04:30 > 0:04:31- Over 80.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35- Really? - It's a club for gay men mostly.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38- Yes, yes.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40- Completely.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42- A gay men's club.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44- How often do you meet?
0:04:45 > 0:04:47- Twice a month.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49- In the same place every time?
0:04:49 > 0:04:50- In the same place every time?- - No.
0:04:51 > 0:04:52- Different.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55- Different locations.
0:04:55 > 0:04:56- Anglesey.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00- Here, Conwy.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02- Denbigh.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06- Fine restaurants.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11- In the 1970s, Roy was prominent with - the Conservative Party in Wales.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15- He's a former - parliamentary candidate.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20- He told me he had to travel to meet - other gay men in the early-'60s.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24- To Manchester, to be honest.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26- Sometimes Rhyl.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29- There were places you could go...
0:05:29 > 0:05:33- ..but you were being scrutinised - by the police.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36- You had to be very careful - what you were doing.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39- You couldn't kiss in the street.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42- You had to be very careful.
0:05:42 > 0:05:49- He also reveals to me that he - was prosecuted in the early-'60s.
0:05:50 > 0:05:56- It was a rather painful experience - appearing in court in London.
0:05:56 > 0:06:03- I was accused of indecent behaviour - in a public place.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05- In a toilet.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10- When he asked me...
0:06:13 > 0:06:15- ..if I was pleading guilty...
0:06:15 > 0:06:17- ..I said not guilty.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19- "What do you mean?"
0:06:19 > 0:06:21- I said...
0:06:21 > 0:06:24- .."There was a lock - on the cubicle door.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26- "No-one could come in."
0:06:28 > 0:06:30- The charge was dropped.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37- In 1967, - 15 years before I was born...
0:06:37 > 0:06:40- ..the Sexual Offences Act - was passed.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44- It decriminalised homosexual - acts in private between two men...
0:06:44 > 0:06:47- ..if both had attained - the age of 21.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51- Roy told me that being gay - is still difficult.
0:06:53 > 0:06:58- It's been extremely difficult.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01- It's destroyed people's characters.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04- And in truth...
0:07:04 > 0:07:10- ..one or two took the easy way out - by committing suicide.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29- The emotion was never far - from the surface with Roy.
0:07:30 > 0:07:35- He's lost friends, he's witnessed - battles, he's experienced feelings.
0:07:36 > 0:07:42- You could see the effect - these experiences have had on him.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05- For many of us, Hywel Wyn Edwards - is a familiar face...
0:08:06 > 0:08:09- ..as organiser - of the National Eisteddfod.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13- He told me that as - a young gay man in Aberystwyth...
0:08:13 > 0:08:16- ..he had to keep his sexuality - a secret.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20- To meet men, he had to visit - specific locations in the town...
0:08:20 > 0:08:22- ..including toilets.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27- Those type of locations - existed in the town.
0:08:27 > 0:08:33- Some of them were, how can I say, - more appealing than others.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36- Certainly, that happened.
0:08:36 > 0:08:44- They were the locations - I tended to visit at times.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50- The secrets continued when - he attended university in Bangor.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54- I was hiding the truth.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58- I lived a double life.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06- At the time, I was also, - on more than one occasion...
0:09:06 > 0:09:08- ..I was, how can I say...
0:09:08 > 0:09:11- ..in company with a woman or women.
0:09:16 > 0:09:21- I don't know if I'd realised - if people had their doubts or not.
0:09:22 > 0:09:30- I was trying to keep what I did - in private a secret from everyone.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34- There was a turning point.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36- Hywel takes me to a place...
0:09:36 > 0:09:40- ..that has memories - from the beginning of his career.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44- There were many good memories - but one bitter memory stands out.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50- This is where I started teaching - back in 1968.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55- I was teaching here - from '68 until '73.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59- You were here when the allegations - were made against you.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04- This is where I was - when the news broke.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09- Hywel told me that he had started - a relationship with a local man.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14- They were both over 21 - and the relationship was legal.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19- Two housemates thought his behaviour - was unsuitable for a young teacher.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23- They reported him - to the school's authorities.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27- At the time, how did you feel? - Disappointment? Anger?
0:10:27 > 0:10:32- I'm sure there was anger - and disappointment.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38- I was very, very sad, I'm sure.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42- I don't know how I came through it.
0:10:43 > 0:10:49- I remember visiting my doctor.
0:10:49 > 0:10:56- His response, - on reflection, was terrible.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00- Then again, maybe that was - the expected response.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04- He told me to grow up, - look for a woman, get married...
0:11:04 > 0:11:06- ..and do what I was supposed to.
0:11:06 > 0:11:12- That was the last thing - someone wanted to hear at that time.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18- The school's headmaster - and governors supported Hywel...
0:11:18 > 0:11:20- ..and he was able to keep his job.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25- Surprisingly, he's kept in touch - with the teachers...
0:11:26 > 0:11:27- ..who made the complaint.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34- Hywel was a far more forgiving - person than I could be.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36- That's not something I should say.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40- I should say, "Yes, we should - forgive one another."
0:11:40 > 0:11:45- If I had friends like the friends - who did that to him...
0:11:45 > 0:11:48- ..I wouldn't have been so forgiving.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52- I would definitely have found it - very difficult to forgive.
0:11:54 > 0:11:55- .
0:11:59 > 0:11:59- Subtitles
0:11:59 > 0:12:01- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:12:04 > 0:12:07- I'm Wyn Thomas, - a farmer's son and minister.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12- I'm also gay. I've just married - my partner Matthew.
0:12:13 > 0:12:21- I've always found it difficult to - say those simple words, "I'm gay."
0:12:22 > 0:12:26- The reason for this, I think...
0:12:26 > 0:12:31- ..is that it directly - draws people's attention...
0:12:31 > 0:12:34- ..to the sexual aspect - of the relationship.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38- That's not the important aspect, - it's not the meaningful aspect.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42- It's not the valuable thing - we try and celebrate.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46- It's not what we think about when we - think about a heterosexual couple.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51- If acknowledging what I am - has been difficult for me...
0:12:52 > 0:12:54- ..how was it - for gay couples decades ago?
0:12:55 > 0:12:58- Tonight, - I'm meeting older gay men...
0:12:58 > 0:13:02- ..to hear about their battles - and the effect it has today.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20- I can empathise with Dafydd Gwylon.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24- Like me, he kept his sexuality - a secret for years.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28- It was more difficult - in the '70s and '80s...
0:13:29 > 0:13:31- ..of the 20th century.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35- Because of people's feelings...
0:13:35 > 0:13:38- ..it was difficult in many cases.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45- In the early-'80s, Dafydd and his - partner Robert moved in together.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48- That strikes me as a brave move.
0:13:51 > 0:13:56- I often say that the freedom - and right that I have today...
0:13:56 > 0:14:00- ..derives from people like you...
0:14:00 > 0:14:03- ..who did something - pioneering, different...
0:14:04 > 0:14:07- ..unacceptable to some extent.
0:14:07 > 0:14:15- How aware were you - that you were making a point...
0:14:15 > 0:14:17- ..making a statement?
0:14:18 > 0:14:23- I don't think we were concerned - about making a point at all.
0:14:23 > 0:14:29- What I felt was thisis where - we felt most content...
0:14:30 > 0:14:35- ..and most alive.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38- I was in a relationship...
0:14:38 > 0:14:42- ..and I could do things - with another man.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47- That's what made a difference to me.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51- Both campaigned for the rights - of gay people.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55- As a former teacher, Dafydd feels - there was a price to pay.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00- Since then, I haven't had - one full-time job...
0:15:00 > 0:15:03- ..for decades.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07- I had to rely on part-time work...
0:15:09 > 0:15:14- ..even though I'd applied - for many full-time jobs.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20- The education authorities - have been deficient.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25- Some school heads - have been prejudiced.
0:15:25 > 0:15:30- There have been some - better school heads, of course...
0:15:30 > 0:15:36- ..but many prejudiced school heads - are still alive in South Wales.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44- For Dafydd and Robert...
0:15:44 > 0:15:49- ..the partnership - that's grown between them...
0:15:49 > 0:15:53- ..and even though - they disagreed with me...
0:15:53 > 0:15:56- ..when I described them - as pioneers...
0:15:57 > 0:16:02- ..they opposed societal conventions - and lived together...
0:16:02 > 0:16:06- ..when that wasn't something - accepted by society.
0:16:11 > 0:16:16- Societal expectations caused me - a great amount of heartbreak.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20- I came close to turning my back - on the ministry some years ago...
0:16:20 > 0:16:22- ..because of my sexuality.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27- There is a Biblical verse somewhere - that's spouted by one or two.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32- "If a man also lies with mankind... - both have committed an abomination."
0:16:32 > 0:16:36- Many things are an abomination - in the eyes of the Lord.
0:16:36 > 0:16:41- Eating prawns, eating pork, - there are all kinds of sins.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48- It's not been a great worry to me, - I have to admit.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51- I made my peace with God - many years ago.
0:16:51 > 0:17:00- I'm content and happy in the fact - that life, hope and love...
0:17:01 > 0:17:05- ..will conquer rules - that were in place 3,000 years ago.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15- After the stress he faced - as a young teacher in North Wales...
0:17:15 > 0:17:19- ..Hywel Wyn Edwards lived with - his partner Gareth for 30 years.
0:17:21 > 0:17:27- We moved here in '97, April '97.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31- I've been here for 21 years.
0:17:31 > 0:17:37- Unfortunately, a few months - after we moved here...
0:17:37 > 0:17:41- ..Gareth was diagnosed with cancer.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46- Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50- He only lived here for two years.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59- I feel privileged that Hywel - is talking to me about his partner.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03- Being gay isn't something - he discusses very often.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08- No, I haven't discussed it.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13- I haven't discussed it with anyone, - in reality.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19- Most certainly, I never - discussed it with my parents...
0:18:19 > 0:18:23- ..my close family or my friends - throughout my life.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29- My parents would come up - and stay with us.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32- Over the Christmas holidays.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37- I take it, from that, - that they accepted.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40- Whether they accepted it 100%, - I don't know.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45- Maybe they accepted it 80%.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50- They could see - that we were happy together...
0:18:51 > 0:18:55- ..and that was far more important - than anything else.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00- Matthew and I understand - how sensitive families can be...
0:19:01 > 0:19:04- ..in responding to a relationship - between two men.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08- My father refused to attend - our wedding.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12- My father hasn't been able - to accept the situation.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15- I can understand completely.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20- I regret causing him - so much pain and worry...
0:19:21 > 0:19:24- ..and to many others over the years, - to be honest.
0:19:25 > 0:19:31- It's such a pity that something - as simple and fundamental...
0:19:31 > 0:19:34- ..can cause such problems...
0:19:35 > 0:19:37- ..and in effect, can split families.
0:19:39 > 0:19:46- We can't wait for people to accept.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49- We have to live our own lives.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51- I have to do - what I think is right...
0:19:51 > 0:19:54- ..and be faithful - to what I believe is correct.
0:19:58 > 0:20:03- In the past, gay men were - persecuted, accused and punished.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08- The Scottish Government apologised - for the treatment some endured.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14- On my journey, I hear pleas - for a similar response in Wales.
0:20:15 > 0:20:20- For those men - who suffered the injustice...
0:20:20 > 0:20:25- ..the criminalisation - and the oppression...
0:20:25 > 0:20:29- ..and the families of those men...
0:20:29 > 0:20:34- ..who experienced - the feeling of shame.
0:20:34 > 0:20:41- Such injustice - that made those men feel shameful...
0:20:41 > 0:20:47- ..for something so natural as having - a relationship with another man.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54- It's time for - the Welsh Government...
0:20:54 > 0:20:59- ..to follow the wonderful lead - shown by Nicola Sturgeon...
0:21:03 > 0:21:04- ..and apologise.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09- The Welsh Government believes - it's not their place to apologise...
0:21:09 > 0:21:13- ..because the criminal system - hasn't been devolved.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16- It's the responsibility - of politicians in London.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21- The Westminster Government - have introduced a process...
0:21:21 > 0:21:24- ..to annul historic punishments.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27- The process - can be long and complicated.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30- It appears that only 165 men - in Britain...
0:21:30 > 0:21:35- ..have made a successful claim - over the past five years.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38- For one - who was prosecuted 50 years ago...
0:21:38 > 0:21:42- ..I get the feeling - that the scars are still painful.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48- Why was a gay man prosecuted - in a court of law?
0:21:48 > 0:21:51- That only made the situation worse.
0:21:51 > 0:21:55- There was a feeling - in the general public...
0:21:55 > 0:22:02- ..that we were made out - to be criminals.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08- A connection was made - between paedophilia and being gay.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13- Something like that - was misunderstood intentionally.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16- They should now...
0:22:16 > 0:22:20- ..however successful prosecutions - were at that time...
0:22:21 > 0:22:23- ..they should now be annulled.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30- There should be an understanding - that gay men did nothing wrong.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40- Despite the lies, - the secrets and the heartbreak...
0:22:40 > 0:22:45- ..there's no doubt that people - like me face less problems today...
0:22:45 > 0:22:50- ..than those encountered by Dafydd, - Roy and Hywel over the decades.
0:22:51 > 0:22:56- I'm glad that I am, finally, - able to be honest about what I am.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03- It's never easy - for anyone to make...
0:23:04 > 0:23:07- ..such a grand - and difficult statement...
0:23:07 > 0:23:12- ..but the sooner the better - that people can be themselves...
0:23:12 > 0:23:16- ..and live their lives - honestly and openly...
0:23:16 > 0:23:21- ..and do that with the support of - family, friends and the community.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49- S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.