0:00:02 > 0:00:05On Y Sgwrs tonight, do we need more GPs, nurses, dentists,
0:00:05 > 0:00:07and opticians who speak Welsh?
0:00:07 > 0:00:10And devolution - we'll be looking at its history
0:00:10 > 0:00:12and its future with our guests.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Welcome.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Joining us tonight, AM Aled Roberts of the Lib Dems, GP
0:00:26 > 0:00:32and lecturer with College Welsh National, Dr Zoe Morris-Williams,
0:00:32 > 0:00:38and in our Wrexham studio, solicitor and former Labour MP Gareth Thomas.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41First, frightening -
0:00:41 > 0:00:46that's the word used by the Welsh Commissioner yesterday in announcing
0:00:46 > 0:00:51a report on the experiences of Welsh speakers within the NHS.
0:00:51 > 0:00:52According to the report,
0:00:52 > 0:00:56only just over one in four Welsh speakers is able to
0:00:56 > 0:01:01communicate with a GP, dentist , pharmacist or optician in Welsh.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04But one GP from North Wales has told us
0:01:04 > 0:01:07that placing too much emphasis on Welsh could lead to doctors
0:01:07 > 0:01:10reconsidering before coming to work in Wales.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Janet Ebenezer has the details.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15From week to week, the NHS is under scrutiny
0:01:15 > 0:01:20and the headlines are often critical.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23This week, it's the Welsh language.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26The Welsh Commissioner has published a critical report,
0:01:26 > 0:01:32mentioning her concerns over the shortage of employees who can
0:01:32 > 0:01:35communicate with patients in Welsh.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40In gathering evidence, the Commissioner heard the experiences
0:01:40 > 0:01:44of over 1,000 Welsh speakers, as well as from the health sector.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47Meri Huws said that she was shocked to hear
0:01:47 > 0:01:50some of the experiences of Welsh speakers who had failed to
0:01:50 > 0:01:55receive Welsh language services suitable for their needs.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58The Commissioner wants to ensure that there are enough doctors,
0:01:58 > 0:02:03nurses and dentists providing care through the medium of Welsh.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06If we are to do this, the Government needs to start planning now to
0:02:06 > 0:02:11ensure that there is a workforce for the future in Wales that can
0:02:11 > 0:02:15provide a Welsh language service.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19One with recent experience of the NHS is actor Lisa Jen,
0:02:19 > 0:02:25who has a five-year-old daughter who suffers from epilepsy.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27This is her story.
0:02:27 > 0:02:33Back in March, Lucy was diagnosed with atypical absence epilepsy.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39She has absences - for 30 seconds or so, she cannot hear, cannot see.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42But sometimes it looks like she's just daydreaming,
0:02:42 > 0:02:45but instead there is something happening to her brain
0:02:45 > 0:02:52and everything freezes and that can happen 20 or 30 times a day.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58And were you happy with the care provided for Lucy?
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Very happy, on that point, with the care
0:03:01 > 0:03:05and how quickly everything happened, but it was quite frustrating
0:03:05 > 0:03:10because that's where we had this lovely paediatrician trying
0:03:10 > 0:03:13to communicate with Lucy, who is five.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16She is bilingual, but she's far more confident in Welsh.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19That's her mother tongue.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23Especially consultants and paediatricians from overseas who
0:03:23 > 0:03:28maybe do not realise that children in Wales sometimes only speak Welsh.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33But others are disappointed with the report and are concerned
0:03:33 > 0:03:37that the language could stop doctors from coming to work in Wales.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40We have got so many struggles in primary care,
0:03:40 > 0:03:44trying to recruit doctors into North Wales, it's a
0:03:44 > 0:03:47real desert here at the moment, particularly in those areas
0:03:47 > 0:03:50where there's a strong Welsh speaking culture.
0:03:50 > 0:03:55The Welsh language is a wonderful treasure in Wales, but for me,
0:03:55 > 0:03:59the priority is getting doctors, whether they speak English or Welsh.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02That's what I need here.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05So, to be finding ourselves criticised for not having
0:04:05 > 0:04:08enough Welsh speaking doctors is very disappointing.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12Before coming here, I spoke to a doctor from Prestatyn to find
0:04:12 > 0:04:14out his opinion on what you have announced today.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18He said there is a recruitment problem
0:04:18 > 0:04:21and that this would not help.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24What is your response to that?
0:04:24 > 0:04:29If you put the patient at the centre of health provision,
0:04:29 > 0:04:32and that's what we should be doing,
0:04:32 > 0:04:36you have to plan around that patient
0:04:36 > 0:04:39and not around other elements.
0:04:39 > 0:04:45So, if the patient wishes or needs to use Welsh in communicating
0:04:45 > 0:04:48when they are in a such a situation, that should be central,
0:04:48 > 0:04:53as providers and professionals in the field.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57In a statement from the Health Minister's office,
0:04:57 > 0:05:01they say they have a Welsh language strategy for health,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05social services and social care, and that is reflected in this
0:05:05 > 0:05:10document - More Than Words - published in 2012.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15As far as this report, published by the Welsh Language Commissioner, the
0:05:15 > 0:05:20Government says they will respond to the consultation within six months.
0:05:22 > 0:05:27When you have a child who is sick, and who is suffering, I think
0:05:27 > 0:05:30that is your priority.
0:05:30 > 0:05:35You just want the proper care, in whatever language, in a way.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38But, yes, it would be wonderful, especially for Lucy,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41if she could communicate with nurses
0:05:41 > 0:05:46and doctors through the medium of Welsh, but who knows?
0:05:46 > 0:05:49That's the experience of Lisa Jen and her daughter.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55Zoe, as a doctor, it's often not a pleasant experience visiting
0:05:55 > 0:06:00the doctor, people are either in pain or are concerned.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03To what extent is seeing a health professional
0:06:03 > 0:06:06and communicating in Welsh important?
0:06:06 > 0:06:09Does it make the patient more comfortable?
0:06:09 > 0:06:14Does it may be benefit the patient in the long-term?
0:06:14 > 0:06:16The first thing I'd like to say is that
0:06:16 > 0:06:20I personally welcome this report and welcome the fact that we
0:06:20 > 0:06:25are talking about the linguistic needs of patients within the NHS.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29I think we have ignored such needs.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31I think that communicating
0:06:31 > 0:06:35and effective communication is vitally important in the way
0:06:35 > 0:06:37we treat and discuss with patients
0:06:37 > 0:06:40and create an atmosphere within the NHS where people can
0:06:40 > 0:06:43trust in us to look after their children, give advice,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46reassurance, and also they may want to tell us
0:06:46 > 0:06:50something they have not told anyone else.
0:06:50 > 0:06:55So, I do think if there is anything we can do to improve that
0:06:55 > 0:06:57situation for patients, I think we must consider it.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01As Meri Huws has said, I think, in looking at these reports,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04if we are to talk about changes within the NHS,
0:07:04 > 0:07:08the needs of the patient is the priority.
0:07:08 > 0:07:13Aled Roberts, some within your party have said that the NHS
0:07:13 > 0:07:15is on its knees as it is.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Shouldn't the Welsh language be a low priority for the NHS in Wales?
0:07:19 > 0:07:23No, I don't think so because I'm sure that most of us
0:07:23 > 0:07:27want a good doctor, first of all, whatever language,
0:07:27 > 0:07:31but there are patients, be they young children or older people, who
0:07:31 > 0:07:34maybe cannot communicate in English
0:07:34 > 0:07:40and it is important that we consider the Welsh language as vital.
0:07:40 > 0:07:45I think what is surprising is that the Government and NHS have
0:07:45 > 0:07:51this strategy and clearly, at the moment, it is only words.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55Gareth Thomas, there is a cost in providing the Welsh language.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58We often hear councils complaining about that.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00In this context, we are
0:08:00 > 0:08:05talking about a health service under tremendous financial pressures.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09Should this be an increased cost when money is short?
0:08:09 > 0:08:14Well, there is a cost to the patient if we do not act in this field.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18The ability and right to communicate in your first
0:08:18 > 0:08:23language should be vital in the care of patients.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26If you consider elderly people who maybe have
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and a stroke or dementia, or young children, it is
0:08:29 > 0:08:36vitally important that they can communicate in Welsh,
0:08:36 > 0:08:39so the doctor understands what is wrong with them.
0:08:39 > 0:08:45We heard in that piece by Janet about these concerns from one
0:08:45 > 0:08:51doctor in North Wales that the emphasis on the Welsh language could
0:08:51 > 0:08:55mean that people in the profession do not come to work in Wales.
0:08:55 > 0:09:00- Do you share those concerns? - I'm disappointed with that response.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Of course, we must act in a practical way
0:09:04 > 0:09:07and this is a long-term thing,
0:09:07 > 0:09:11but there must be an understanding of the fact that in some
0:09:11 > 0:09:17parts of Wales we are operating within a different culture.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20And I think that doctors
0:09:20 > 0:09:26and those working in this field have a duty to learn Welsh,
0:09:26 > 0:09:32or there should be other members of staff available who are fluent.
0:09:34 > 0:09:39I think that is vitally important.
0:09:39 > 0:09:40But there is a recruitment problem.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44- The Welsh Government acknowledges that.- This is a small matter.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46Welsh speakers need fair play.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50And this is a problem more in North Wales, but it is a lack of planning.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53It's not going to happen overnight.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56There are more and more young people in Wales
0:09:56 > 0:10:00receiving their education through the medium of Welsh and yet,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04for some reason, they reach 18 years old and the system fails them.
0:10:04 > 0:10:09Some people would argue it is reasonable to expect to see
0:10:09 > 0:10:12a Welsh speaking GP.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Is it reasonable, if you're going for complex surgery, that the
0:10:15 > 0:10:17surgeon speaks Welsh?
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Can I first respond to what Aled has said?
0:10:21 > 0:10:25There are huge steps being taken within higher education to try and
0:10:25 > 0:10:29ensure bilingual nurses, therapists and doctors are graduating in Wales.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33There is work to be done to ensure that children from Welsh speaking
0:10:33 > 0:10:36backgrounds and for those who have learned Welsh to get
0:10:36 > 0:10:41the opportunity to study in Wales and follow bilingual courses.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45But the matter is - what can someone reasonably expect?
0:10:45 > 0:10:49I don't think that it is up to us as doctors to tell the patient
0:10:49 > 0:10:51what they can reasonably expect.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54I think we need to move away from this idea that
0:10:54 > 0:10:57patients are unreasonable people. They are not.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01I think what they want is for us to consider their linguistic needs
0:11:01 > 0:11:04and even if the surgeon only said good morning in Welsh
0:11:04 > 0:11:08and acknowledged the fact they could not communicate with them
0:11:08 > 0:11:11in their first language, but show sensitivity,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14that would be enough to ease many people's concerns.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16A diplomatic answer to end that debate.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20Next tonight, how much do you know about devolution and have some
0:11:20 > 0:11:25areas in Wales benefitted more than others during the past 15 years?
0:11:25 > 0:11:29A BBC Wales survey suggests that fewer than
0:11:29 > 0:11:32half of people in Wales are aware that the
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Government in Cardiff Bay is responsible for health.
0:11:35 > 0:11:3931% believed the south east had benefitted most from devolution,
0:11:39 > 0:11:45with 4% saying North Wales and just 1% suggesting Mid Wales.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50Let's begin with the understanding of devolution.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53Does it sadden you that
0:11:53 > 0:11:57so few people know what the Welsh Government is responsible for?
0:11:57 > 0:12:02I'm not surprised because a large number of our population
0:12:02 > 0:12:05receives evidence and news from England.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09But people like you are meant to be educating people.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12It's easy to blame the London press.
0:12:12 > 0:12:17Yes, but if they just watch BBC Wales or S4C for an hour a day
0:12:17 > 0:12:21they receive so much information saying that London
0:12:21 > 0:12:27policies are affecting our schools in Wales, it is no surprise.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Gareth Thomas, what is responsible for this?
0:12:30 > 0:12:33Is it the fact that the devolution settlement in Wales is
0:12:33 > 0:12:37different to that in Scotland and Northern Ireland?
0:12:37 > 0:12:41To begin with, the assembly is relatively new.
0:12:41 > 0:12:46You say that, but it is 15 years old. That is not relatively new.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Considering that the parliament in Westminster has been
0:12:50 > 0:12:54there for centuries, yes, it is. We are only just beginning in Wales.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58If you had asked the same question maybe ten years ago,
0:12:58 > 0:13:04there would have been even less awareness. So we are developing.
0:13:04 > 0:13:10The awareness is developing. The assembly's profile is growing.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12So, I'm not too disappointed.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17Zoe, on this question of who is to blame for the lack of awareness
0:13:17 > 0:13:22and understanding, the Presiding Officer often says that most people
0:13:22 > 0:13:28receive their news from London and so what happens here is not reflected.
0:13:28 > 0:13:29Do you agree with that?
0:13:29 > 0:13:32I think what worries people I see in surgery is what is
0:13:32 > 0:13:36happening on a local level, so maybe we are not all aware who the
0:13:36 > 0:13:39Health Minister is in Wales, or that health has been devolved.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43What causes a problem is what is happening to local services
0:13:43 > 0:13:46and I think the assembly deserves praise with some things,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48especially regarding public health,
0:13:48 > 0:13:52but maybe people are not aware that things like banning smoking
0:13:52 > 0:13:57in public places happened sooner here because health is devolved.
0:13:57 > 0:14:02I think we all have a responsibility to ensure that people
0:14:02 > 0:14:06understand that and then when they vote,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09they understand what they are voting for what they are voting
0:14:09 > 0:14:12And who and what powers are affected,
0:14:12 > 0:14:16especially regarding important fields, such as health.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18If people do not know who is responsible for what,
0:14:18 > 0:14:22does it really matter in the scheme of things?
0:14:22 > 0:14:26As long as the services provide what is needed, does it matter
0:14:26 > 0:14:29if they do not know who is responsible?
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Yes, because if they are complaining about the standard of health
0:14:33 > 0:14:38or education, it's important they know who is responsible.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41- Who to knock in an election! - Definitely, yes.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45I think that the picture is changing.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49Most of our children and young people do receive information
0:14:49 > 0:14:52explaining who is responsible. I would agree with Gareth.
0:14:52 > 0:14:57It will take time for this picture to change.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01On that point, Gareth Thomas, do you think that if more people were aware
0:15:01 > 0:15:06exactly what has been devolved that Labour would suffer bigger blows
0:15:06 > 0:15:09when it comes to elections?
0:15:09 > 0:15:14We hear about the NHS and the changes, many people are unhappy, we
0:15:14 > 0:15:16hear about these PISA results, where the
0:15:16 > 0:15:20education system is on its knees, according to some.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23Do you think that would affect Labour,
0:15:23 > 0:15:28if more people knew the Welsh Government was responsible?
0:15:28 > 0:15:35Well, a lot of the criticism of the Labour Government is unfair,
0:15:37 > 0:15:39in my opinion.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43There has been an independent
0:15:43 > 0:15:47report on health services in Britain
0:15:47 > 0:15:50and the NHS in Wales, in many examples,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52is better than it is in England,
0:15:52 > 0:15:55but there is nothing to differentiate between the
0:15:55 > 0:16:00standard, on the whole, of the NHS in Wales, Scotland, England.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04And we need to put this into context.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09People's experiences with the NHS in Wales are positive
0:16:09 > 0:16:14and the figures are higher than they are in England.
0:16:14 > 0:16:19Can I also ask you about the geographical context?
0:16:19 > 0:16:24Who and where benefitted from devolution.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27In North Wales, we often hear people saying they are losing out.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Is there a basis for that?
0:16:30 > 0:16:36There is a lack of knowledge and awareness and with respect
0:16:36 > 0:16:41to my fellow North Walians, it's the same old thing time and time again.
0:16:41 > 0:16:48The awareness of the benefits of devolution is spreading.
0:16:48 > 0:16:55And I hope this inevitable gap between north and south Wales,
0:16:55 > 0:17:01considering the geography, is exaggerated.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06I accept that Cardiff has done well, as far as buildings and culture
0:17:06 > 0:17:10and so on, but on the whole, the assembly acts fairly, in my opinion.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12Aled Roberts,
0:17:12 > 0:17:15official figures confirm this as far as spending per head.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19There is no difference in what goes to the north and the south.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21I don't agree with you on that.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23There was a report a year ago showing that...
0:17:23 > 0:17:27I have the figures in front of me. £30 difference.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32- Yes, so there is a difference. - £30, from £3,147...
0:17:32 > 0:17:35£30 does not make much difference.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39But our responsibility as politicians in North Wales is
0:17:39 > 0:17:42to ensure that our case is heard, rather than complaining.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45But the Government needs to look at the A55
0:17:45 > 0:17:48and railways in North Wales, as well as the M4.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52We will now discuss the last 15 years -
0:17:52 > 0:17:54how will Wales look in 15 years' time?
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Daran Hill looks into his crystal ball.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11Devolution, so far, has been a story of changes between Westminster
0:18:11 > 0:18:13and the Assembly.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17Maybe one thing that will change during the next 15 years
0:18:17 > 0:18:21is the relationship with local government.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24The people providing services.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28Maybe that is where the focus will be.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32The story of devolution may be one of devolving
0:18:32 > 0:18:37out of the assembly, or from local government back into the assembly.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45As far as the themes of next 15 years, I think
0:18:45 > 0:18:49health will remain vitally important.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53But I think one thing that will arise will be social services,
0:18:53 > 0:18:55with the ageing population.
0:18:55 > 0:19:01I think that will become a crisis in Wales.
0:19:05 > 0:19:11I don't see Labour being out of government in the next 15 years.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14They are too strong, too constant,
0:19:14 > 0:19:20and also for us to have a government that is not a Labour government,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23the other parties need to form a coalition.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27At the moment, especially when there is not a Labour
0:19:27 > 0:19:31government on a British level, that is not going to happen.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38I think that politics is always exciting.
0:19:38 > 0:19:44One of the best things about it is you can look ahead,
0:19:44 > 0:19:48but what arises from nothing is always the most surprising.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53As Harold Macmillan said, "Events, dear boy, events." I think
0:19:53 > 0:19:57we will have plenty of events over the next 15 years.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05Daran Hill. Wales, Aled Roberts,
0:20:05 > 0:20:09has led the way in a number of fields during the past 15 years.
0:20:09 > 0:20:14The tax on plastic bags, organ donation, the smoking ban.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18How can they set the agenda over the next 15 years?
0:20:18 > 0:20:22We need to be clear on the relationship between Wales
0:20:22 > 0:20:27and Westminster. I think that is developing.
0:20:27 > 0:20:32But I think what we also need to do is find a Welsh way to move forward.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36I don't think that some of the changes within health and
0:20:36 > 0:20:40education in England are things we would like to follow here in Wales.
0:20:40 > 0:20:45We have our own way of doing things. We should try
0:20:45 > 0:20:49and ensure that standards are the best that they can be.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53There is an Assembly election in two years' time.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Gareth Thomas, many people would say that we will have
0:20:56 > 0:21:00more of the same if Labour remain in power.
0:21:00 > 0:21:05Well, the people decide at the end of the day.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08The voting system we have for the assembly is far fairer than
0:21:08 > 0:21:13the Westminster system. But you asked the question -
0:21:13 > 0:21:16what will happen during the next 15 years?
0:21:16 > 0:21:19I do see devolution developing.
0:21:19 > 0:21:25Whatever happens in Scotland, I see more powers coming to Cardiff.
0:21:25 > 0:21:32Maybe the body itself will grow, as far as the number of members.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36And I think that would be a good thing.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Fewer local councils in Wales.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43I agree there is one big challenge facing the health service, but
0:21:43 > 0:21:48England also faces that challenge, as regards the ageing population.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51The health service In England is also under strain,
0:21:51 > 0:21:54but in England, they are going down the privatisation route.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58Thank goodness we are not going down that route in Wales
0:21:58 > 0:22:02because devolution has given us the ability to make our own way and
0:22:02 > 0:22:06that is vitally important and I'm so pleased that we have the assembly.
0:22:06 > 0:22:11Zoe, regarding the health service, over the years
0:22:11 > 0:22:15more of the budget has gone to health and less to other fields.
0:22:15 > 0:22:21Over the next 15 years, are we likely to see a Welsh Government
0:22:21 > 0:22:25becoming a huge health authority?
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Well, I'm not sure.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31One thing I can say is I think that the Government has
0:22:31 > 0:22:35concentrated on public health and I hope that campaign will
0:22:35 > 0:22:40continue, looking at alcohol and obesity and diabetes.
0:22:40 > 0:22:45I think that the Government needs to work more effectively to
0:22:45 > 0:22:50make decisions regarding the NHS and then stick to those decisions
0:22:50 > 0:22:51and let things settle,
0:22:51 > 0:22:57rather than changing direction every time we have a new Health Minister.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Also, we're always comparing England and Wales.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03We need to stop looking over our shoulders
0:23:03 > 0:23:06and talk about what we are doing in Wales.
0:23:06 > 0:23:11Our population is different, we face different problems,
0:23:11 > 0:23:15and we need to look forward and have a Welsh way of doing things.
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Gareth has referred to the Scottish referendum.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24Will that define what happens in the assembly during the next 15 years?
0:23:24 > 0:23:29It will definitely affect the finance.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33Maybe this devo max will be more of a problem,
0:23:33 > 0:23:37as far as what we can do over the next 15 years.
0:23:37 > 0:23:42What about the institution and the kind of people within it?
0:23:42 > 0:23:46In the news today, Nick Ramsay, the Conservative AM,
0:23:46 > 0:23:50denying being drunk in the Senedd. Any comments to make on that?
0:23:50 > 0:23:54I have no comment to make on that individual case.
0:23:54 > 0:23:59But everyone in public life has a duty to behave appropriately.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03We unfortunately live in an era where there is
0:24:03 > 0:24:10a lot of cynicism, as regards politicians.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13And we must take care and behave ourselves.
0:24:13 > 0:24:18- Aled Roberts?- There are strict rules.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21A complaint has been made.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25I think we must wait for the inquiry to be carried out,
0:24:25 > 0:24:29so we can see exactly what has happened.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Rosemary Butler has said there is no drinking culture in the assembly.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35- Is there?- No.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39- Right.- I think there is a drinking culture in Wales, generally.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41And that is a problem.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Instead of an inquiry into one person,
0:24:43 > 0:24:45we should be looking at society.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49Our time is up. That is it for tonight. Thank you to my guests.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52We will return in a fortnight. Good night.