0:00:00 > 0:00:05Welcome back. To what extent should politicians interfere in how we live?
0:00:05 > 0:00:08Banning smoking, rising the price of alcohol.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Now, one party wants to have a levy on a bottle of pop.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Is the state mothering us?
0:00:13 > 0:00:17We'll have the panel's opinion on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27Welcome to y Sgwrs.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30A chance to discuss the controversial and the interesting
0:00:30 > 0:00:33from the political world and beyond.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Here with me every week is Vaughan Roderick, our Welsh Affairs editor.
0:00:36 > 0:00:42Also here is someone who's used to this studio, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Welcome. He is the Plaid Cymru AM for Anglesey.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Historian Dr Elin Jones is also here, who has been prominent
0:00:50 > 0:00:55on our screens recently as S4C marks the Senghenydd disaster this week.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02We'll be discussing history and its role in our schools later.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05But first let's talk about one of the biggest stories of the day
0:01:05 > 0:01:08that we discussed on Newyddion 9 earlier.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12Vaughan, this idea that we need more politicians down in the Bay.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16- Where has this idea come from? - It isn't a new idea.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19There is an artificial partition in the Chamber
0:01:19 > 0:01:24and it can be taken out to make room for an extra 20 members.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27That was a recommendation made by the Richard Commission,
0:01:27 > 0:01:29if you remember.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31But this report, the academic report, says
0:01:31 > 0:01:36if you are going to have the proper scrutiny then you need 100 members.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40But the same report says there are too many councillors in Wales.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43More councillors in Wales than they have in Scotland.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48The suggestion is that the number of councillors could be cut down
0:01:48 > 0:01:52in order to have the resources to pay for more Assembly Members.
0:01:52 > 0:01:57But in a time of cuts, persuading the people of Wales
0:01:57 > 0:02:00- that this needs to be done will be a huge task.- Very difficult.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Rhun ap Iorwerth, you are new to the Assembly, are you drowning
0:02:04 > 0:02:08under pressure of work? You are one of 60 members there.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Do we need any more there?
0:02:10 > 0:02:12It is worth noting that this idea
0:02:12 > 0:02:16hasn't come from inside the Assembly or from the political parties.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20We are in the middle of a recession.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Ask anyone right across the world if they want you politicians,
0:02:23 > 0:02:25I think the answer would be, no.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29In my opinion I don't think it is a black and white matter.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32There is a price for democracy, there is a price to be paid
0:02:32 > 0:02:35for the type of democracy we need in Wales.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39That discussion is going to start as the Assembly has more powers.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41Do we need more members?
0:02:41 > 0:02:45With more powers there is a strong argument to make sure
0:02:45 > 0:02:47there is way of scrutinising the government
0:02:47 > 0:02:51so that they can't do what they want to do, and also to make sure
0:02:51 > 0:02:54that the assembly can cope with using
0:02:54 > 0:02:57the new tax-raising powers effectively.
0:02:57 > 0:03:02Dr Elin Jones, in Scotland they have 129 members.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Northern Ireland has 108 members.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07If you look at 60 in Wales, it is weaker here.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11The Welsh Parliament is a baby of an assembly.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13Maybe it needs to grow like babies grow.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16We need more powers.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20But this business of councillors, the number of councillors,
0:03:20 > 0:03:24that is very interesting as well as the number of councils.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28I would strongly argue for the unification of some councils.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30That is very expensive.
0:03:30 > 0:03:36Yes, it is in the short term but we will save money in the long term.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39We need the government itself closer to the people.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Remembering the stories today about the councils and cutting,
0:03:43 > 0:03:46the time is right for reorganisation?
0:03:46 > 0:03:49The problem is your organisation is costly in the short term.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53But, certainly, there are expectations that some councils
0:03:53 > 0:03:56will have to follow some councils in England
0:03:56 > 0:04:00where they share the staff, they share the services
0:04:00 > 0:04:03and only exist separately the constituency boundaries.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Many thanks. Are you a fan of pop? The drink that is.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12If you are, you could be paying more for your lemonade
0:04:12 > 0:04:14if Plaid Cymru have their way.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16At the party's conference over the weekend
0:04:16 > 0:04:20they revealed a new policy to raise a levy on sugary drinks
0:04:20 > 0:04:23that will then go towards paying for 1,000 new doctors.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27Is it a good idea? Or visit another example of politicians trying
0:04:27 > 0:04:31to interfere in our daily lives? Aled ap Dafydd has this report.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42We all drink them, some drink too much of them.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45But is it the government's place to penalise us for making
0:04:45 > 0:04:48decisions that could affect our health?
0:04:51 > 0:04:55Families like the Williamses in Bangor
0:04:55 > 0:04:59will be hit in the pocket by a tax on sugary drinks.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03It is an effort to tackle obesity, that is the opinion in this home.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05But...
0:05:06 > 0:05:08I'm not sure if this is the answer.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10They need to consider families.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13For example, may be a can of Coke is a small treat for them.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16If you think about it, they are going to add 40 pence
0:05:16 > 0:05:17for a bottle of Coke.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20A bottle of Coke for a family of four like us,
0:05:20 > 0:05:25that is an extra two pounds a week just on pop.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30But as I have said, maybe it is a good idea to try to create
0:05:30 > 0:05:32jobs for doctors and so forth.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37As we discuss the lemonade levy,
0:05:37 > 0:05:42another term raises its ugly head again. The nanny state.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44Is the government trying to control our daily lives
0:05:44 > 0:05:47or working for the good of the population?
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Some politicians have their sights on more than just sugary jinx.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01hasn't disregarded the idea of raising tax on fatty foods.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05But it raises the question, where is the line?
0:06:05 > 0:06:07How far should the government go
0:06:07 > 0:06:10while interfering in our everyday lives?
0:06:13 > 0:06:15There is no boundary.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19The government and the politicians have to find the right balance
0:06:19 > 0:06:22and use the right resources to change people's opinions.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26It is a matter of education, more than anything else.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29But interfering isn't going to work.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33It will alienate politicians away from people.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36Even more so than present.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39The Welsh Government hasn't been shy in trying to influence
0:06:39 > 0:06:41people's lives.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46After the smoking ban, then came the tax on plastic bags.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48The Westminster government has suggested
0:06:48 > 0:06:50tax cuts for married couples.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54This DJ, Gareth Potter,
0:06:54 > 0:06:58wasn't swayed by the government's interference.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02But now he has welcomed the efforts by our politicians.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07I used to have my headphones like that, a cigarette like that
0:07:07 > 0:07:11and the deck there. That was the stance.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14I used to smoke and listen.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17It was part of the whole thing.
0:07:19 > 0:07:25Once they brought in the smoking ban in the club, I thought great.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28I totally stopped smoking then.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34I am pleased I have done that. I thought I was total libertarian.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36I just thought, if someone wants to do it, they can do it.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39As long as they are not hurting anyone.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41I do believe the government should do these things.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43There are places where the government can interfere.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45So, what next?
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Is the health minister considering legislating where he feels
0:07:48 > 0:07:52individuals are not taking enough personal responsibility?
0:07:54 > 0:07:57I don't think we can legislate on everything.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00I am not going to start with legislation.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03But there is room for legislation as well.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05As the Health Minister I am going to bring forward,
0:08:05 > 0:08:10early on in the New Year, a white paper in the public health field.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19In that white paper I hope we can suggest some practical things
0:08:19 > 0:08:22we can do to help people.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24Everything is on the menu.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28Prepare for a healthier plate of food or higher prices.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Joining me just for this discussion is Dr Harri Pritchard
0:08:35 > 0:08:39who is a GP on Anglesey. Welcome to you.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41- Do you think this is a good idea? - Yes, I do.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44I think, as doctors, we have to welcome anything
0:08:44 > 0:08:49that will be part of something that will stop this obesity epidemic
0:08:49 > 0:08:51that we have in Wales.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55Somebody like Gareth Potter who has been turned
0:08:55 > 0:08:59by this idea of the state interfering, welcomes that.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Is that what is at the root of this?
0:09:02 > 0:09:05That the government needs guidelines?
0:09:05 > 0:09:08I think the government is running everything in the country,
0:09:08 > 0:09:12they decide where the money goes and what are the priorities for health.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16We can't escape the fact that the government
0:09:16 > 0:09:20has to have an important part of legislation
0:09:20 > 0:09:24such as tax on alcohol, tax on tobacco
0:09:24 > 0:09:28and new taxes in things like sugary drinks.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32Rhun ap Iorwerth, how much would this raise?
0:09:32 > 0:09:35It depends how effective it is.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39The intention is to tackle obesity and so on.
0:09:39 > 0:09:44If people carried on drinking as they do,
0:09:44 > 0:09:48the markets would be worth £60 million of a levy in Wales.
0:09:48 > 0:09:52But that is not the point, bringing in money is not the point.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55But you say it is too pay for new doctors.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57You need the money to come in.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59It is some confusion about that.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01We want employ 1,000 additional doctors
0:10:01 > 0:10:03and that will cost about £60 million.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06We think that this levy would bring in £60 million into Wales.
0:10:06 > 0:10:12But people won't change their habits totally
0:10:12 > 0:10:14and it will be a contribution.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18- Was it a mistake to connect both things?- No.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23If you connect both things, you are saying you have to still
0:10:23 > 0:10:26drink Tizer and Dandelion & Burdock or we will have to sack doctors.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29It doesn't surprise me that the political opposition
0:10:29 > 0:10:34trying to make that point, just as Carwyn Jones made it,
0:10:34 > 0:10:38quite laughably, in First Minister's Questions yesterday.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42The point is there is a national problem here.
0:10:42 > 0:10:47We need to tackle the national problem and what we have done
0:10:47 > 0:10:50is offer a pioneering idea which has been widely welcomed.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55It was very interesting to watch a network programme today
0:10:55 > 0:10:58in England discussing this pop tax idea by Plaid Cymru.
0:10:58 > 0:11:03They thought it was a good idea in order to tackle the problem.
0:11:03 > 0:11:05It has been implemented in France...
0:11:05 > 0:11:08It has been implemented in several places such as different
0:11:08 > 0:11:11- states in America. - It isn't Plaid Cymru's original idea.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14But what about this idea of freedom of the individual?
0:11:14 > 0:11:17If the state tells us to do everything, isn't that dangerous?
0:11:17 > 0:11:20I prefer that they look after our health
0:11:20 > 0:11:22or they will waste our money on weapons for Afghanistan,
0:11:22 > 0:11:24to be honest.
0:11:24 > 0:11:29I see that savings can be made by money being saved in the NHS
0:11:29 > 0:11:34that's dealing with diabetes and obesity and so forth.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37I would welcome this.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40But I think, just as Gareth Potter said,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43the government runs our life anyway.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47I'd prefer it they would that for my benefit
0:11:47 > 0:11:50rather than the do it in order to pull young men into war
0:11:50 > 0:11:53and waste it on the nonsense with the banks.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57What we do have is this recent precedent with the plastic bags
0:11:57 > 0:11:59where there have been changes.
0:11:59 > 0:12:04Some people were very suspicious of it at the start
0:12:04 > 0:12:07but it has changed people's habits.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10We talk about the nanny state, we are not banning sugary drinks
0:12:10 > 0:12:13but giving people the choice and make them think
0:12:13 > 0:12:15through their pockets what is best for us.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18But with the plastic bags, the plastic bags are five pence.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22And seven pence on a can of drink. It is very similar.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24No, it is not.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27If you look at the own brands.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30If you go to ASDA and Tesco, it is two pounds for eight litres.
0:12:30 > 0:12:35If you are raising 40p a litre that is a significant price increase.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39Yes, it is. But if you look at the shelves in the supermarkets
0:12:39 > 0:12:44and there are things with high sugar and things with low sugar.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47I would hope that people, by introducing this policy,
0:12:47 > 0:12:49will change their habits
0:12:49 > 0:12:53and think about their health before making the usual purchase.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Let's get the expert in here. Dr Pritchard.
0:12:55 > 0:13:00What about this idea of recruiting 1,000 doctors?
0:13:00 > 0:13:03You work on Anglesey, it isn't easy to get doctors there.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Do you think Plaid Cymru adding cloud cuckoo land here thinking that
0:13:06 > 0:13:09doctors and living on trees?
0:13:09 > 0:13:13I think it is a different argument to the sugar debate.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16I don't know what is the connection between both.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19As a doctor, I accept there is a lack of doctors in Wales
0:13:19 > 0:13:22compared with England, but the major problem is
0:13:22 > 0:13:24where will we find these thousand doctors?
0:13:24 > 0:13:27There is already scarcity of doctors.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30The other thing that is forgotten is a doctor does not come on his own.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Consultants need secretaries, they need people to work in offices
0:13:34 > 0:13:37to make appointments in the clinics.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Surgeons need theatre time, they need theatre staff
0:13:41 > 0:13:46and those resources cost much more than a single doctor.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50Only a small percentage of the cost of getting the doctor
0:13:50 > 0:13:53is the actual wage, there are resources attached.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57- What do you say to that?- The point on recruitment is interesting.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00It is something that I and many of my other Plaid Cymru members
0:14:00 > 0:14:02are concentrating on.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06It will be something that Harri will agree with.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09There is a recruitment problem in North Wales because,
0:14:09 > 0:14:13generally, people who go to medical school tend
0:14:13 > 0:14:16to remain on the patch where they do their training.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18We want to see much more training of doctors
0:14:18 > 0:14:22so we can make sure that the professional doctors are there
0:14:22 > 0:14:25to work in parts of Wales where there are recruitment problems.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29We want to use fewer agency doctors and locums.
0:14:29 > 0:14:31We need to train more.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35We need to appoint more people as well.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Elin Jones, do you think there isn't a line to cross
0:14:39 > 0:14:41on state interference? Or is there?
0:14:41 > 0:14:45Many columnists in the Daily Mail, for example, say
0:14:45 > 0:14:48before long they will tell us what to think not just to behave
0:14:48 > 0:14:50and what to eat?
0:14:50 > 0:14:52That is what the Daily Mail's work is.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54Telling us how to think!
0:14:54 > 0:14:57No, I wouldn't take the Daily Mail's advice.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00I do feel that this is something that will benefit us.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04It isn't something that will harm this that's done in other areas
0:15:04 > 0:15:07with the government's money.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11But don't you think, we were talking about smoking as an example,
0:15:11 > 0:15:13that happened step-by-step.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17I remember the days when people smoked in the offices here
0:15:17 > 0:15:19and people were smoking in the back of aeroplanes.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24That changed first, and then there were slow changes.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27And then cigarette prices increase.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32People's social attitudes towards smoking changed too.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36There is nothing new in increasing the cost in order
0:15:36 > 0:15:39to make people think about their habits.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42Where there are movements within the British Isles towards putting
0:15:42 > 0:15:44the increased price on alcohol,
0:15:44 > 0:15:47the cost of cigarettes have increased,
0:15:47 > 0:15:50we have another idea to make people think.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53Dr Pritchard, this is Plaid Cymru's idea
0:15:53 > 0:15:56and we need powers to raise taxes.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58That is far away.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01But what is your message to the Welsh Government?
0:16:01 > 0:16:06What I would say is we need to look at it in an holistic way as well.
0:16:06 > 0:16:11It isn't just sugar in drinks, we need to look at education,
0:16:11 > 0:16:17and more importantly, after we had the budgets for the councils,
0:16:17 > 0:16:19is our leisure centres.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23It is easy enough to raise taxes on sugary drinks
0:16:23 > 0:16:27without looking more on exercise
0:16:27 > 0:16:33and the importance of keeping leisure centres open.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36That's just as important or even more important than sugar in drinks.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40We have to look at it in a much more holistic way
0:16:40 > 0:16:43than just one small factor.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Dr Pritchard, many thanks for joining us.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50This week we remembered the disaster in Universal Colliery
0:16:50 > 0:16:52in Senghenydd 100 years ago.
0:16:52 > 0:16:57In our media and I'm sure in our classrooms, the remembering
0:16:57 > 0:17:01has brought the history of the community alive once again.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04But there are concerns that not enough Welsh history
0:17:04 > 0:17:07is being taught in our schools.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09We'll discuss that later.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13But first we will hear from the historian, Hefin Matthias.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15We live in an very complex world.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19The social world is even more complex.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23History is the key to know this complex world.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27We have a curriculum where Welsh history is important.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31The biggest problem is that Welsh history, and history generally,
0:17:31 > 0:17:34ends as a compulsively subject at the end of Key Stage Three.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38What happens then is children have to choose history as an option.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41If you place Welsh history in competition with
0:17:41 > 0:17:45history on Hitler, for example, the whole history
0:17:45 > 0:17:49of the Third Reich is dramatic, it is violent and colourful.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51It deals with the war.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54This, in turn, has children interested in it.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56If you place that in the Welsh context,
0:17:56 > 0:18:00where you look at history between the two World Wars,
0:18:00 > 0:18:04the Depression, we had a great film on Senghenydd on television.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06It can be attractive.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10But you have to make it compulsory in order to ensure that.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12The resources aren't as rich,
0:18:12 > 0:18:16and naturally teachers, in order to get children
0:18:16 > 0:18:20to follow their courses, they are going to go after the shiny courses.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25As a result Welsh history is going to be pushed to the sidelines.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28This curriculum is much wider than it has been in the past.
0:18:28 > 0:18:33People are thinking about mathematics, sciences and so on.
0:18:33 > 0:18:37but saying that, history is just as important,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40if not more important, in making people understand where they
0:18:40 > 0:18:45have come from and making sure of their identity going to the future.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50Dr Elin Jones, you have written a report for the government on this.
0:18:50 > 0:18:55You obviously feel that isn't enough emphasis.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57No. It depends.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00In some schools they have structured the course that will have put
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Welsh history central to all subjects.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07The history curriculum asks for that to the be central to a course.
0:19:07 > 0:19:12But there is a lot of pressure on teachers from the mass media
0:19:12 > 0:19:15and resources available, as Hefin Matthias was saying,
0:19:15 > 0:19:19to give English history and international history more focus.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23They tend to forget where the children live.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26I think that the best history starts at your feet.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28It gives someone a safe foundation.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33You can look out onto the world knowing where you have come from.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36So start locally?
0:19:36 > 0:19:37Start at your feet.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41There is an old American saying, look for the me in museum.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43We should do the same here.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48It is very interesting, I was at the service in Senghenydd.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51There was a group of secondary school children there
0:19:51 > 0:19:55and it was obvious that they had a real interest in it.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59- But not every area has an incident like that.- No.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03Not every area has a dramatic and tragic event
0:20:03 > 0:20:06that has a worldwide significance like Senghenydd.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10But every small thing can bring us closer to the past.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14Every area has its story.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18Every area has its histories, and traditions and characters.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23It is a surprise in places we would not suspect,
0:20:23 > 0:20:24there is something there.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27But you go there to find it.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Rhun ap Iorwerth, how would you strike the balance?
0:20:29 > 0:20:35Schools have to create international citizens who can work worldwide.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39If you concentrate on Anglesey too much you are not going to
0:20:39 > 0:20:42learn about China. How do you strike the balance?
0:20:42 > 0:20:46I totally agree that we have to start at our feet.
0:20:46 > 0:20:51We have to know who we have been in order to consider
0:20:51 > 0:20:55where we want to go in the future as a nation.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59We also have to remember that we are not talking about history
0:20:59 > 0:21:04as a subject, I'm going to use the word, cross-curricular.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07There are so many opportunities in other subjects
0:21:07 > 0:21:11to consider the local and the Welsh.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14That is what is so exciting about the Welsh curriculum
0:21:14 > 0:21:17and the ideas that have been presented in where
0:21:17 > 0:21:20Welsh history should be placed in the curriculum.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22But there are political choices here.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25To some extent I like what Elin said that there is a story
0:21:25 > 0:21:30where we live, in one sense the memory creates the nation.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33If there is disagreement about what the nation is,
0:21:33 > 0:21:38is our nation Wales or Britain, there are two different stories.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41The more interpretations, the better.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44Otherwise you will be learning propaganda not history.
0:21:44 > 0:21:48My nationalism isn't a narrow nationalism.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51We're not talking about just learning about Welsh history,
0:21:51 > 0:21:53and just talking about Welsh history.
0:21:53 > 0:21:58It is important that it is put into its context and history
0:21:58 > 0:22:03from England, Europe, it is all put but the context is important.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08People have been educated to forget who they are
0:22:08 > 0:22:11and where they've come from for far too long.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14Now is the time where there is real enthusiasm for it.
0:22:14 > 0:22:19Elin Jones, how do you make history an attractive subject?
0:22:19 > 0:22:24It is attractive but the emphasis now is on youth unemployment,
0:22:24 > 0:22:28they want apprentices, they want something that will make sure
0:22:28 > 0:22:30that is a job at the end of the studies.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Does history offer that?
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Then in no assurances in any subject.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Literacy and numeracy are all-important
0:22:39 > 0:22:43because they give you the skills, the tools to do any job.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48But understanding your past can enrich your present.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52It can help you to understand which direction you want to go
0:22:52 > 0:22:54to in the future.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56It gives you an opportunity to think critically
0:22:56 > 0:22:59and to consider what is being said.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03- Do politicians appreciate that? - We shall see.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05We'll see what the Education Minister will do
0:23:05 > 0:23:07with the report we have given him.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Is the standard of teaching of history more important?
0:23:11 > 0:23:15I remember in school we had a Welsh history teacher,
0:23:15 > 0:23:18and it was a separate subject back then.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21We had a very inspirational Welsh history teacher.
0:23:21 > 0:23:25There were some other history teachers who were fairly dull.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27You need somebody who can tell a story.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30I'm not sure if you need someone who can tell a story
0:23:30 > 0:23:34but you need somebody who can provoke and raise an interest
0:23:34 > 0:23:36by playing historical games, if you like.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38I have seen brilliant work being done there.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41People go out to look for evidence for themselves
0:23:41 > 0:23:43by looking at street signs and so forth.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47It is a way to do it without saying stories.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50As long as the teacher is enthusiastic for his or her subject
0:23:50 > 0:23:53and can present that enthusiasm.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55It doesn't matter what the topic is.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Better still if you have an holistic attitude in the school
0:23:58 > 0:24:00which brings all the subjects together.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04They need to show how one subject enriches another.
0:24:04 > 0:24:08Michael Gove tried to do that, he tried to bring more British history
0:24:08 > 0:24:12into the curriculum but he has had a rethink about that.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16I think context is everything to me.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18We need to have the Welsh context
0:24:18 > 0:24:21and put us in our place in the world.
0:24:21 > 0:24:26We need a curriculum for a 21st century devolved Wales.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29Many thanks for coming in and joining us for the programme tonight,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31Dr Elin Jones and Rhun ap Iorwerth.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35Vaughan Roderick and myself will be back next week.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39Join us and for Y Sgwrs at the same time next week,
0:24:39 > 0:24:43straight Newyddion 9 next Wednesday.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46But from all of us here, good evening.