0:00:01 > 0:00:02Welcome back.
0:00:02 > 0:00:04Everybody's bills are going up
0:00:04 > 0:00:08but why do we in Wales have to pay more for electricity?
0:00:08 > 0:00:10We've been looking for the light on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21More on energy prices in a moment.
0:00:21 > 0:00:26We'll find out whether the rest of Wales loves or hates Cardiff.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31We're joined as always by Vaughan Roderick and tonight's guests -
0:00:31 > 0:00:34Baroness Eluned Morgan, a Labour peer.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Carol Bell, who has worked in the oil and banking industry,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42and the comedian, Gethin Thomas. Welcome to you all.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Firstly, a look at the headlines.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48We heard on Newyddion 9 that it seems there is evidence
0:00:48 > 0:00:51that the British economy is improving.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55Unemployment figures are down and the Bank of England says
0:00:55 > 0:00:58the forecasts are better than expected.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01But can we say with confidence that we are turning the corner?
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Vaughan, a positive outlook for Britain
0:01:04 > 0:01:06but what's the picture like in Wales?
0:01:06 > 0:01:09There are positive signs in Wales.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13We've been saying for a few months that the majority
0:01:13 > 0:01:17of this growth is taking place in south east England.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22That's still true but it seems that the economy here in Wales
0:01:22 > 0:01:26is starting to grow and it's doing a little bit better
0:01:26 > 0:01:31than other regions outside the south east.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35There are signs that the Welsh economy is starting to improve.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38But there are still problems especially
0:01:38 > 0:01:41with unemployment among women and the youth.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Eluned Morgan, Mark Carney of the Bank of England sounded
0:01:44 > 0:01:48very positive today. George Osborne's plans must be working.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52It's working for the Tories and the rich people, yes,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55but the problem is nobody's sharing this wealth, only those at the top.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59If you look at wages, they're stagnant.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Prices are increasing, people feel poorer.
0:02:02 > 0:02:08People today earn £1,500 a year less than they did three years ago.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12There is a problem here.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15The economy is growing but the wealth isn't being shared.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18That is a fair point, isn't it, Carol Bell?
0:02:18 > 0:02:21You're there in central London, in the middle of this growth.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24What Eluned has said is quite right.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27People are under pressure.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31Their wages haven't gone up to match price increases.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34We'll be discussing prices later on.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37That's a huge part of what is going on.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40But while we're importing so much fuel and other things,
0:02:40 > 0:02:46there are many things we can't control, unfortunately.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Gethin, do you feel this increase?
0:02:50 > 0:02:56Speaking from experience, I organise comedy tours right across Wales.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59We've organised two tours this year,
0:02:59 > 0:03:03one about eight month and it was a hard tour.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07We've just finished another tour now, eight months later,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10and we saw a lot more people turning up,
0:03:10 > 0:03:12a lot more ticket sales.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16It's difficult to say whether people are more confident in the economy
0:03:16 > 0:03:20or have they just got used to the recession and coped better?
0:03:20 > 0:03:24- Or they go on Wonga in order to buy a ticket.- There is that!
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Vaughan, there's also some nervousness about today
0:03:27 > 0:03:30because of what Mark Carney has said.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34If unemployment comes down to 7%, interest rates could go up.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38People are celebrating but are also nervous because of their mortgages.
0:03:38 > 0:03:43But remember a lot more people depend on their savings
0:03:43 > 0:03:44than pay mortgages.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48There is a tendency to say, "Interest rates are going up,
0:03:48 > 0:03:49that's bad news."
0:03:49 > 0:03:54It's not bad news if you're a pensioner with some savings.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58They're amongst the people who have suffered the worst
0:03:58 > 0:03:59over the last few years.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03Those who were on a stable income and they've seen,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06to all purposes, their incomes disappear
0:04:06 > 0:04:10if they depended on some interest on savings.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12You're in the City, Carol Bell,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15is the City going to think that George Osborne is the man?
0:04:15 > 0:04:18We'll go with Plan A, there's no need to change,
0:04:18 > 0:04:22Miliband is living in cloud cuckoo land. Is that the feeling?
0:04:22 > 0:04:25I think a lot of people have been disappointed in Miliband's recent
0:04:25 > 0:04:30comments, personally, about what he said about energy prices
0:04:30 > 0:04:32and the government should interfere in those prices.
0:04:32 > 0:04:37I don't think people are stupid enough to believe
0:04:37 > 0:04:42- that the government can control energy prices.- We'll come to that.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46But with the economy, is Ed Miliband right, Eluned Morgan?
0:04:46 > 0:04:50You're not going to say anything to the contrary.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52It is interesting because part of the reason
0:04:52 > 0:04:55why the economy is growing is because they've started Plan B.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00They have started investing in a way they said they wouldn't do that.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02The point is, Plan B has started.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06You have to remember also that people of this country
0:05:06 > 0:05:10are in debt to the sum of £1 trillion.
0:05:10 > 0:05:14What we've been worried about up until now
0:05:14 > 0:05:17has been the country's debt.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Before long we'll have to start worrying
0:05:20 > 0:05:22about people's personal debt.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Part of that problem is that debt is still growing.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29That is causing problems for people in Wales especially.
0:05:29 > 0:05:35This Wonga, all sorts of people contact the poorest people
0:05:35 > 0:05:40and lend them money at interest rates that are much higher
0:05:40 > 0:05:43than we expect in this country.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47I do think...the problem we're seeing with this growth,
0:05:47 > 0:05:52- we have to make sure that it's divided fairly.- OK. Thank you.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Energy prices has been a constant topic in the headlines
0:05:56 > 0:06:00over the last few weeks and on average, we in Wales pay more for our
0:06:00 > 0:06:04electricity than any other part of the UK, apart from Northern Ireland.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Why? A simple question.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08But as Daniel Davies has found out,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10getting an answer is more complicated.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16Here in Techniquest children can find out how much it costs
0:06:16 > 0:06:17to light a house.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20But I'm going to learn the answer to a specific question.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24Why are their parents paying more for electricity in Wales
0:06:24 > 0:06:26than in another part of Britain?
0:06:27 > 0:06:30Last year, people in South and North Wales paid
0:06:30 > 0:06:33an average £503 to power their homes.
0:06:33 > 0:06:38People in both regions have paid more than the British average
0:06:38 > 0:06:40for the last five years.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43Those are the British Government's figures
0:06:43 > 0:06:46so I asked the Energy and Climate Change Department
0:06:46 > 0:06:48why Welsh people paid so much.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52The answer? You'd better talk to the industry.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54So that's what I did.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57The biggest companies are increasing their prices
0:06:57 > 0:07:00and blame the price they have to pay for electricity
0:07:00 > 0:07:03as well as environmental and social duties.
0:07:05 > 0:07:09But why does the increase for the customer vary from area to area?
0:07:09 > 0:07:14The answer was there's a difference in transporting the energy,
0:07:14 > 0:07:16and they aren't responsible for that.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I didn't think it was fair that people are paying more.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23We are calling for more transparency in the industry so people can
0:07:23 > 0:07:28understand the costs they pay every month for their electricity.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32Every area has its own unique challenges.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35The landscape, the population, the age of the infrastructure.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39Distribution companies like Western Power Distribution in the south
0:07:39 > 0:07:43and SP Energy Networks in the north supply the electricity
0:07:43 > 0:07:44to our homes.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Before charging prices, the companies agree a price with Ofgem
0:07:47 > 0:07:50which regulates the industry.
0:07:52 > 0:07:53I had a word with them as well.
0:07:53 > 0:07:58Ofgem says costs are lower in areas which produce more
0:07:58 > 0:08:00electricity than they use.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03If so, why is Wales paying more
0:08:03 > 0:08:06because it produces more than it uses?
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Ofgem says it's because there are so many rural communities.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11Everyone clear?
0:08:12 > 0:08:15The Westminster Energy Select Committee
0:08:15 > 0:08:17has heard from the large companies.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Has the committee received a satisfactory answer to my question?
0:08:20 > 0:08:22We want to know why.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25If we have a National Grid,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28we want it to work for the whole of Wales and all over Britain.
0:08:28 > 0:08:33It is unfair that places like Wales produce energy
0:08:33 > 0:08:40and pay more for it in businesses and in every family home in Wales.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47The industry hopes that costs will drop over the next decade.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50The politicians are looking for ways to help customers.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55But today there was a warning from the National Audit Office.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59Prepare for 17 years of increases in your energy bills.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Daniel Davies, who is still searching for the answer.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06Carol Bell, what is the answer? Why do we have to pay more in Wales?
0:09:06 > 0:09:10I think a lot of things were explained there which do play a part.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14The problem is, it's very difficult for any individual
0:09:14 > 0:09:17to understand exactly where the price of electricity,
0:09:17 > 0:09:20or gas for that matter, comes from.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Why is there all this confusion in the industry?
0:09:23 > 0:09:26Because there are several parts to the industry and transferring
0:09:26 > 0:09:31electricity from the power station to the home, that is one part.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33Then you have the cost of the fuel
0:09:33 > 0:09:37which goes into produce the electricity, which is something else.
0:09:37 > 0:09:41It's different in different parts of the country.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Nobody can understand these figures very easily to decide
0:09:44 > 0:09:47whether it's fair or not.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51But of course, Ofgem has done this. It has agreed that things are fair.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54Eluned Morgan, you used to work in the industry
0:09:54 > 0:09:56so you understand the industry well.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59But as a politician, you must be angry about this confusion.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03One of the problems is the way it was privatised.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06It's the same thing with the railways.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08One group owns the tracks,
0:10:08 > 0:10:12another group owns the train which travels on the track.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15That's the problem. It's exactly the same with energy.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17And nobody understands it.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20It doesn't make sense the way it was done in the first place.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23Did you understand it when you worked within the industry?
0:10:23 > 0:10:25I did, of course. But it is complicated.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28It takes years to understand the system.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30When people receive a bill
0:10:30 > 0:10:33and they see the profit the company is making,
0:10:33 > 0:10:37when they phone the company and it takes 40 minutes
0:10:37 > 0:10:41to answer the phone and when they don't receive a good
0:10:41 > 0:10:45service from these companies, of course people get angry.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49The companies also got a bad name at the beginning with the selling.
0:10:49 > 0:10:54The way they went from door to door selling. They have stopped doing it now.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58Most people tended to stick with the people they used traditionally.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01If you were in North Wales, you stuck with Manweb.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04If you were in South Wales, you were with Swalec and British Gas.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08Very few people change companies. Only around two percent every year.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12And fewer people change in Wales than in any other area.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16So that is interesting as well. So why are we paying more here?
0:11:16 > 0:11:19It's partly because of this issue of the grid.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22It costs more because we have rural areas here.
0:11:22 > 0:11:27But also our houses are old.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32But Scotland has a rural areas and they pay less.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36The North of Scotland pay about the same as us.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41But they get a payment from the Westminster Government.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Did you know that? That we are contributing towards that?
0:11:44 > 0:11:46- No, I had no idea. - But we do, don't we?
0:11:46 > 0:11:51We contribute towards reducing their costs in the north of Scotland.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56Yes, but I think we have plenty to do as individuals as well
0:11:56 > 0:12:00at the same time as looking for a payment from the Government.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02I was in Japan quite recently
0:12:02 > 0:12:07and as everybody knows the Fukushima disaster
0:12:07 > 0:12:11has affected Japan's ability to produce electricity.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16The government responded by going to the people publicly
0:12:16 > 0:12:19and saying, right everybody has to try and use less.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Do you know how much less they used? And they continue to use less.
0:12:23 > 0:12:2917%. Has their standard of living dropped significantly? No.
0:12:29 > 0:12:33What I would say is that we could all be more careful
0:12:33 > 0:12:36and keep our own bills down.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39It doesn't change the fact that the houses, as we've just heard,
0:12:39 > 0:12:43a lot of work needs to be done on the older houses
0:12:43 > 0:12:46out in the country to make them energy-efficient.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49But it's not just in the country. If you look at the valleys,
0:12:49 > 0:12:53they have the oldest housing stock in Britain in the South Wales valleys.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Most of them have been built in a way that there is no easy way...
0:12:57 > 0:13:03There is no cavity you can fill in. They only have one layer of stone.
0:13:03 > 0:13:08In Cambridge the engineering department there is looking at how
0:13:08 > 0:13:11they can make streets in Cambridge,
0:13:11 > 0:13:16and they are not big houses, the ones owned by some of the colleges,
0:13:16 > 0:13:21where you can go into a whole street and make them much more efficient in one go.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25It's interesting because with regard to image, it was the bankers
0:13:25 > 0:13:28who were having a hard time but now it is the energy company bosses.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32They are the new bankers. They are public enemy number one.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35- Do you use that as material, as a comedian?- Yes.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39It sounds as if I'll have enough material for the next 17 years!
0:13:39 > 0:13:43- And she's sitting next to you! - And I've got a full house!
0:13:43 > 0:13:46Who has the worst image, the bankers or the energy companies?
0:13:46 > 0:13:50I've spent the last five years on Pawb a'i Farn and other programmes
0:13:50 > 0:13:54trying to explain that there are different types of bankers.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58Some are irresponsible and some don't understand risk.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01I think the story here with the energy industry,
0:14:01 > 0:14:04is that we need more transparency.
0:14:04 > 0:14:05That is what we need.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10The people in government need to make policies which force
0:14:10 > 0:14:12the companies to be more transparent.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Eluned Morgan, what about the policy?
0:14:14 > 0:14:17Ed Miliband says prices should be frozen.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21But the Westminster Government says that is completely irresponsible
0:14:21 > 0:14:24because it creates so much uncertainty before and after the freeze.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27What's important is that he has been clear.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29He's going to freeze it
0:14:29 > 0:14:33while they are looking again at how to restructure the market.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36- But the prices will go up before they are frozen.- No.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39It's obvious that these companies can freeze prices because they do.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42They already offer a service to people
0:14:42 > 0:14:45to keep the same price until 2017 now.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48So I don't think...
0:14:48 > 0:14:51People are making a big deal out of this but I do think
0:14:51 > 0:14:56people need to understand that it's possible for them to do it.
0:14:56 > 0:14:57The problem is,
0:14:57 > 0:15:02because they take advantage of the fact that people don't switch
0:15:02 > 0:15:04or look at what else is available...
0:15:04 > 0:15:06This happened to my mother last week.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10She was on the most expensive price because she didn't know.
0:15:10 > 0:15:11Nobody had told her.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15If you have somebody telling you you can't go higher than this,
0:15:15 > 0:15:17then you are helping the poorest people.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20But in 2011 Plaid Cymru and the SNP put forward a Parliamentary
0:15:20 > 0:15:25motion because they wanted to freeze petrol prices.
0:15:25 > 0:15:30Labour turned around and said it was completely irresponsible. You can't do that.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33It is exactly the same policy but with petrol.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37So how is it possible to do it with the gas and electricity industry but not with petrol?
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Oil is different because we don't produce a lot of oil.
0:15:40 > 0:15:46- We can produce energy in this country.- Not enough.- No, not enough.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49We produce as much oil as we do gas.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54But the point is, the decision about the price of oil is made
0:15:54 > 0:15:56a long way away from this country.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58And that feeds through into the price of gas.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01In the end it feeds through to the price of coal as well.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05It did but the price of gas and the price of oil have been separated recently.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08In some countries. Not in this country.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11There has been a lot of debate recently about the green element in bills.
0:16:11 > 0:16:17Do you as a customer worry about whether the environment is protected?
0:16:17 > 0:16:22Or during this difficult time, is it just too costly to be green?
0:16:22 > 0:16:24No, I don't think so.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29What struck me with this story was that these companies said today
0:16:29 > 0:16:34they would reduce the increase if the green levy was reduced.
0:16:34 > 0:16:39But that sounds to me like an attack by large companies on smaller
0:16:39 > 0:16:43companies who are bringing in new ways of producing energy.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46- So you are happy to pay these green taxes?- Yes.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48On that note, thank you for now.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51Last week we asked whether rural areas
0:16:51 > 0:16:53suffer the most in a time of saving.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58We had several suggestions during the conversation that too much attention was paid to Cardiff.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01It is a familiar theme
0:17:01 > 0:17:04and one of our panellists tonight is eager to hit back
0:17:04 > 0:17:06and defend the capital.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17A few days ago a ceremony was held in the European Parliament
0:17:17 > 0:17:22to celebrate the fact that Cardiff is the European Capital For Sport in 2014.
0:17:22 > 0:17:27Not the capital city of Europe's Celtic nations but the whole of Europe.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Excellent! So a reason to celebrate.
0:17:30 > 0:17:32At first sight.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36But the reaction of many people in Wales online has seemed
0:17:36 > 0:17:40anti-urban or even anti-Cardiff.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44Let me give you an example from Golwg 360.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48"Once again, the money will flow into Cardiff and stay there."
0:17:51 > 0:17:54So why this reaction? Jealousy?
0:17:54 > 0:17:59Or maybe there's a longing for a lost Welsh folk tradition,
0:17:59 > 0:18:03which sounds a bit to me like preparing the Welsh culture for the museum.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08Unfortunately, the folk museum is in Cardiff.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13Certainly, there is a suspicion that too much goes to Cardiff and the surrounding area.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15I'll give you another quote.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17This is from Golwg 360.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20"These days Britain means London and the south-east of England.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23"It's a shame that many of our politicians in Wales
0:18:23 > 0:18:26"are trying to create the same kind of Utopia on a smaller scale
0:18:26 > 0:18:29"by giving Cardiff as many resources as possible
0:18:29 > 0:18:32"and saying it is good for the whole of the country."
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Is there any truth in this criticism?
0:18:36 > 0:18:38Nonsense!
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Having said that, Cardiff and the surrounding area
0:18:41 > 0:18:42is where most of the population lives.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46So it is inevitable that money will be spent on resources for them.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49But remember, this is not a unique situation.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Paris gets it from most of the South of France.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56Even Edinburgh gets it from everybody in the Highlands.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59And London gets it from the North of England.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07As much as I enjoy unreasonable extremism on this issue,
0:19:07 > 0:19:09there are implications.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12Without support, Cardiff and Wales cannot compete with
0:19:12 > 0:19:17international cities like London, Paris, Rome, Dublin, Athens...
0:19:17 > 0:19:20Well, maybe not Athens now.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23But Cardiff, our capital city, is the shop window.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27And there's a danger that the whole of Wales could lose out
0:19:27 > 0:19:30economically, culturally and socially.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33For once, can we just not fight amongst ourselves?
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Let's do just that right now.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40You are the only one from North Wales here tonight.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44Cardiff, Cardiff, Swansea, Bridgend. Everything goes to Cardiff.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47Well, not everything but a lot does.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51We see the same kind of story in other places.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54We complain in Cardiff about everything going to London.
0:19:54 > 0:19:59But if you remember when we were talking about establishing the Assembly,
0:19:59 > 0:20:04that was one of the reasons why we wanted to bring it to Cardiff to ensure that it happened,
0:20:04 > 0:20:06because we wanted to take something out of Wales
0:20:06 > 0:20:10and create a new centre point for Wales. That is what has happened.
0:20:10 > 0:20:15Would that have happened without all these things?
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Would the place be as dynamic? I'm not sure.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23It's better that it's happening here than not happening anywhere in Wales.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27Is anybody going to stand up for the countryside? You are from Swansea.
0:20:27 > 0:20:35I do have an answer. I was looking there the Millennium Centre.
0:20:35 > 0:20:40Amazing things take place in the Millennium Centre.
0:20:40 > 0:20:46Why don't we broadcast live what goes on in the centre
0:20:46 > 0:20:49into cinemas and halls around Wales?
0:20:49 > 0:20:53They do the same kind of thing in New York with the Metropolitan Opera.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56We could do it with the Wales National Opera.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59I've been saying this to anybody who will listen.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02- We have some amazing things. - Like Gethin's shows.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06Broadcasting them around the country live so that everybody
0:21:06 > 0:21:11is part of the excitement and the great shows we have there.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13The problem is this.
0:21:13 > 0:21:18You talk about this city but it's not only rural areas that would complain.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Newport would complain. Newport is only 10 miles away from Cardiff.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24It's easy enough for them to go to the opera.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28The main headline in the South Wales Argus a few weeks ago was,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32'Newport to get Britain's biggest 99p shop.'
0:21:32 > 0:21:35There are areas of Cardiff which are poor
0:21:35 > 0:21:39and which complain that other areas of Cardiff get things.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42You said at the end, why don't we stop arguing amongst ourselves?
0:21:42 > 0:21:46- But we do like to argue in Wales, don't we?- It's our speciality.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49We are very good at doing it. We're playing to our strengths.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51What I would say is...
0:21:51 > 0:21:54In simple terms, Cardiff is a shop window
0:21:54 > 0:21:56but the whole of Wales is the shop.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58You need a city.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02But if you live in North Wales, Liverpool might be the capital for many people.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04They go to Liverpool.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07I used to go more often to Liverpool, to see football for example,
0:22:07 > 0:22:09than I came to Cardiff when I was living in Bangor.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Without a big city like Cardiff,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14we might be more dependent on cities like Liverpool and Bristol.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17I'm not sure how much Wales would benefit
0:22:17 > 0:22:21if big events like the sporting events went to those places.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24I'm not sure how that would benefit Wales.
0:22:24 > 0:22:29It is very positive that we have the facilities to bring in these large events,
0:22:29 > 0:22:33just to give cultural, social, economic opportunities.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36It brings international attention to Wales as well
0:22:36 > 0:22:38and that benefits everyone.
0:22:38 > 0:22:43And with regard to a capital city, London dominates Britain.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Is there a danger that Cardiff could do the same in Wales?
0:22:48 > 0:22:50I think it does already.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54But what we do have here in Cardiff
0:22:54 > 0:22:57and I've brought many visitors here recently,
0:22:57 > 0:23:00is that we have a gem.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04People don't know how good Cardiff is until you bring them here.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08They want to go to the Millennium Centre or to a big rugby game
0:23:08 > 0:23:10and I don't know what they have in their minds
0:23:10 > 0:23:14but we have something amazing to offer them.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18Do politicians manage to solve this age-old problem?
0:23:18 > 0:23:21A lot depends....
0:23:21 > 0:23:23I was talking about Newport.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27When David Cameron came to Cardiff a few weeks ago
0:23:27 > 0:23:31to announce that the NATO summit would be held at the Celtic Manor
0:23:31 > 0:23:36in Newport he said, "It's great to be bringing the summit to Cardiff."
0:23:36 > 0:23:38Now, how do you brand Newport?
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Would Newport benefit from being counted
0:23:41 > 0:23:47and portrayed as a part of a Cardiff region.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50From the point of view of south-east Wales, West Wales is different
0:23:50 > 0:23:53and North Wales is different,
0:23:53 > 0:23:59but Cardiff is really the brand of south-east Wales.
0:23:59 > 0:24:05People outside of Wales don't know where Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent or the Rhondda are.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Cardiff is the brand.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11But how do you persuade people in Anglesey for example,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14that Cardiff is the shop window?
0:24:14 > 0:24:17I think it is a bit of a problem.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21One of the things that happens is that it sucks talent from other areas.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25You can see on the schoolyard that parents
0:24:25 > 0:24:28have come from all over Wales.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33I think that is a problem because of what they leave behind.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37But I do think if they didn't come here they would go to London.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39So it's better that we stay here.
0:24:39 > 0:24:45Thank you to the panel tonight. That's it for another week.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47We are taking a break next week
0:24:47 > 0:24:50but we will be back in a fortnight, so join us then.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52For now, good night.