0:00:02 > 0:00:03Welcome to the programme.
0:00:03 > 0:00:06The vision for an independent Scotland has been announced.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09But are Alex Salmond's plans fantasy or fact?
0:00:09 > 0:00:11One of the questions for our panel on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Tonight, we'll be covering the future of the United Kingdom.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28And during a week of programmes
0:00:28 > 0:00:30looking at drug and alcohol addiction,
0:00:30 > 0:00:34we'll discuss the image and reality of an addict.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38I could go to a casino, lose £50,000 in a few hours
0:00:38 > 0:00:44and go on the Internet and borrow that much money back.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47I ended up with a debt of £100,000.
0:00:47 > 0:00:52Bethan Rhys Roberts is hosting another programme tonight,
0:00:52 > 0:00:54so I'm just keeping the seat warm.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56I'm joined by Vaughan Roderick.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Our guests tonight are the Tory, Felix Aubel,
0:00:59 > 0:01:00the broadcaster, Catrin Beard
0:01:00 > 0:01:04and joining us from Edinburgh, Professor Richard Wyn Jones.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06A warm welcome to the three of you.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10What sort of a place would an independent Scotland be?
0:01:10 > 0:01:13That was the question being considered yesterday
0:01:13 > 0:01:16as the First Minister, Alex Salmond, announced his plans for the future
0:01:16 > 0:01:19if there's a yes vote in the referendum next September.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22He would want to keep the Queen as the head of state,
0:01:22 > 0:01:27keep the pound and remain a member of the European Union and NATO.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31Alex Salmond tried to answer 650 questions in the white paper,
0:01:31 > 0:01:36but did he succeed? That's the question we'll begin with.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39The simple answer is yes and no.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42There are some questions which are answered
0:01:42 > 0:01:46and others which are impossible to answer.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Independence would result from discussions
0:01:50 > 0:01:54between the Scottish Government, the UK Government
0:01:54 > 0:01:58and bodies like the European Union and NATO.
0:01:58 > 0:02:03It is impossible to predict what the result of those discussions would be.
0:02:03 > 0:02:09I think it is a fair effort to ease people's fears.
0:02:09 > 0:02:15It is some kind of manifesto in terms of what the SNP would do
0:02:15 > 0:02:20if it formed the first independent government in Scotland.
0:02:20 > 0:02:26It allowed Mr Salmond to offer goodies to the voters,
0:02:26 > 0:02:29but in reality, it's not relevant to the basis of the argument.
0:02:29 > 0:02:34You're in Edinburgh, where the dust has settled since that announcement.
0:02:34 > 0:02:39Is this a policy document from the SNP,
0:02:39 > 0:02:43rather than a vision for an independent Scotland?
0:02:43 > 0:02:47I think people feel it's a combination of things.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50The international media were here yesterday,
0:02:50 > 0:02:54but now most of them seem to have disappeared.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58We return now to the Scottish people discussing the future of Scotland.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01The document was designed carefully.
0:03:01 > 0:03:06The fact it was 670-pages long was not a coincidence.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10The SNP want to create a feeling of confidence
0:03:10 > 0:03:13and that they have answers.
0:03:13 > 0:03:18The purpose of the document was to provide answers,
0:03:18 > 0:03:22but they have also got to inspire people
0:03:22 > 0:03:27with a vision of what an independent Scotland would be like.
0:03:27 > 0:03:32Part of that is inspiring workers in Scotland.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36The white paper signifies the start of the campaign
0:03:36 > 0:03:42and there is no doubt the yes campaign has a far better machinery.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46They had not really begun serious campaigning until now.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48But now they want to inspire people
0:03:48 > 0:03:52to go out and knock on doors.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55They're aware that they are trailing,
0:03:55 > 0:03:59but they're also thinking that by having a very good campaign
0:03:59 > 0:04:03that they have been preparing for for many years,
0:04:03 > 0:04:05they still think they can win.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07As a Conservative, Felix,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09I know which side of the fence you will sit on.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12But you can't accuse Alex Salmond
0:04:12 > 0:04:16of failing to provide a detailed document.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20As a person who believes in self-determination,
0:04:20 > 0:04:22Scotland are welcome to be an independent country.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24But that is down to the Scottish people to decide,
0:04:24 > 0:04:26not politicians from other countries.
0:04:26 > 0:04:32But the document makes a number of predictions.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35There is no certainty that the European Union
0:04:35 > 0:04:39would accept Scotland as an independent country.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42The simple fact is the Catalans in Spain
0:04:42 > 0:04:44could also try to become independent
0:04:44 > 0:04:48and a country like Spain would veto Scotland's inclusion.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Alex Salmond also wants to keep the pound.
0:04:52 > 0:04:59Under European Union laws, any new country has to accept the euro.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03There are too many assumptions, not enough certainties.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05There is certainly a lot to discuss.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08As someone on the outside,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12if you read the white paper and were allowed to vote,
0:05:12 > 0:05:14would you be convinced by this document?
0:05:14 > 0:05:19I'm glad Vaughan explained some of the background there.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23I watch the news, I read the newspapers
0:05:23 > 0:05:26and I don't feel I'm getting the correct information.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31I don't think journalists located in London,
0:05:31 > 0:05:37the British press, I don't think they are completely unbiased.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41I was listening to the Today programme this morning,
0:05:41 > 0:05:44or yesterday morning on Radio 4,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47and they were talking to an SNP member.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52And all they kept asking was, "What's your Plan B?"
0:05:52 > 0:05:54I don't want to know the details.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57"What are you going to do if this happens?"
0:05:57 > 0:06:04There is too much detail from the journalists in London,
0:06:04 > 0:06:06but on the other hand, you have Welsh nationalists
0:06:08 > 0:06:12and Scottish nationalists saying, "We have to go for this."
0:06:12 > 0:06:14We're not seeing the reality.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17What is interesting to me, in one sense,
0:06:17 > 0:06:22I think the yes campaign has already won the argument
0:06:22 > 0:06:28because you would expect a debate surrounding Scottish independence
0:06:28 > 0:06:31would be between the feeling of being Scottish
0:06:31 > 0:06:33and the feeling of being British.
0:06:33 > 0:06:38But as far as I see it, there's no dispute over nationalism.
0:06:38 > 0:06:43What they keep saying is, "You can be Scottish, we love Scotland,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46"but we're stronger if we change things."
0:06:46 > 0:06:48Let's bring the discussion closer to home now.
0:06:48 > 0:06:53There were a few references to Wales in Alex Salmond's press conference.
0:06:53 > 0:06:57They weren't very complimentary, I must say,
0:06:57 > 0:07:00but we need to look at the possible consequences for Wales
0:07:00 > 0:07:03if Alex Salmond's plans become a reality.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05What could it mean for us?
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Under the SNP's vision, an independent Scotland
0:07:12 > 0:07:15would benefit from the gas in the North Sea,
0:07:15 > 0:07:19facilities which currently provide money for the UK Treasury.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24But how would it affect our economy?
0:07:24 > 0:07:26The SNP also wants to keep the pound,
0:07:26 > 0:07:31but Carwyn Jones has promised to prevent Scotland
0:07:31 > 0:07:35from sharing responsibility for the pound with the Bank of England.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39Carwyn Jones' government in Wales might benefit.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43He wants to get rid of the Barnett Formula,
0:07:43 > 0:07:47which decides the way public money is distributed across Britain.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Some say the Welsh Government would be more likely to win the argument
0:07:51 > 0:07:55if Whitehall lost responsibility for funding Scotland.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Rhodri Morgan described Britain as,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05"an English elephant with Celtic blood".
0:08:05 > 0:08:12But Wales may get more attention if Scotland became independent.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14Or would Wales suffer
0:08:14 > 0:08:18if Scotland had a stronger voice in the House of Commons?
0:08:18 > 0:08:20And what about independence for Wales?
0:08:20 > 0:08:25Less than 10% are in favour, according to the opinion polls.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28What effect would Scotland's destiny have on that?
0:08:31 > 0:08:34And there would be cultural changes.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Last year, people across Britain celebrated the success of Team GB.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42There would be no room for cyclists Geraint Thomas and Chris Hoy
0:08:42 > 0:08:45in the same squad under independence.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49Would they need a different flag from the rest of Britain?
0:08:49 > 0:08:52And a new name for the Lions.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56British, Irish and Scottish Lions.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58You are welcome to support Andy Murray,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01but independence for Scotland would mean
0:09:01 > 0:09:04you are supporting a player from a foreign country.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10One thing Carwyn Jones has said many times
0:09:10 > 0:09:13is that we need a new constitution.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16He has called for a convention in the past.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18What does he mean by that?
0:09:18 > 0:09:20What would the obligations of that be?
0:09:20 > 0:09:25What was interesting about Carwyn Jones' speech in Edinburgh
0:09:25 > 0:09:28was that he was basically saying that Wales
0:09:28 > 0:09:31should have a seat at the table
0:09:31 > 0:09:36when things like the future of the pound are discussed.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38To me, that means Carwyn Jones is suggesting
0:09:38 > 0:09:41the sovereignty of the United Kingdom
0:09:41 > 0:09:46now rests in the individual countries.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Things like the Good Friday Agreement
0:09:49 > 0:09:53and this issue in Scotland have set that precedent.
0:09:53 > 0:09:58I think Carwyn Jones is going further than just a federal constitution,
0:09:58 > 0:10:01whether Scotland is a part of it or not.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05He's talking about something more confederal,
0:10:05 > 0:10:09something much less central than what we've got now.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14Richard, you earn your bread and butter discussing this issue.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18What is often said if there is a yes vote, or if it was close,
0:10:18 > 0:10:22there would be further devolution to Scotland,
0:10:22 > 0:10:24which would inevitably mean further devolution in Wales.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Is there any basis to that theory?
0:10:27 > 0:10:31The opinion polls in Scotland
0:10:31 > 0:10:36showed that there isn't much support
0:10:36 > 0:10:39for the status quo in Scotland.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43Even if there is a no vote next September,
0:10:43 > 0:10:47it doesn't mean the Scots are happy with where they are.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51There is certainly an understanding in Whitehall
0:10:51 > 0:10:55that they have to offer more in terms of devolution.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57But if there is further devolution,
0:10:57 > 0:11:03you have to start altering the institutions which are centralised.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07Devolution has changed things radically
0:11:07 > 0:11:10in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland,
0:11:10 > 0:11:15but there has been very little change in London.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18But to get more devolution in Scotland,
0:11:18 > 0:11:22you are talking about far more complex systems.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26Things would need to change centrally to enable that.
0:11:26 > 0:11:31That raises the question, where does Wales sit in that equation?
0:11:31 > 0:11:36If Scotland is given further devolution, the state will change
0:11:36 > 0:11:40and Wales' position within that would change.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42In terms of the Conservatives,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46who should we believe in terms of their position on devolution?
0:11:46 > 0:11:50The Welsh Secretary, David Jones,
0:11:50 > 0:11:52has a strong opinion on devolution.
0:11:52 > 0:11:58We have a Tory group in the Assembly that has warmed to the idea.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00What is the position of the party?
0:12:00 > 0:12:03The Tory Party accepts devolution.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05We are here to make it work.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08The fact is that David Jones wants to provide
0:12:08 > 0:12:11tax-varying powers to the Assembly,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13which shows that he supports devolution.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16So people in Wales would have the right
0:12:16 > 0:12:19not just to vote on who's in charge in the Assembly...
0:12:19 > 0:12:22Or he wants the Welsh Government's accounts to be run in London?
0:12:22 > 0:12:24..or who distribute the grant,
0:12:24 > 0:12:29but if voters in Wales have a say on taxes in the first place,
0:12:29 > 0:12:31we would have more input from Wales.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34The Tory Party is clear
0:12:34 > 0:12:37that it wants devolution to work effectively.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41I believe in self-governance for the Celtic countries
0:12:41 > 0:12:43in Gladstone's tradition of Home Rule.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47That means a federal system, independence of home matters,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51but foreign policy in the hands of the Westminster Government.
0:12:51 > 0:12:56My concern is, while I wish Scotland every success,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59if they become independent, I'm sure we can have an agreement
0:12:59 > 0:13:06because we can still work as brothers on the British Isles.
0:13:06 > 0:13:11But Scotland has to be very careful economically.
0:13:11 > 0:13:16They say that when Scotland sneezes,
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Wales catches the cold in terms of devolution.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Is that how you see it?
0:13:21 > 0:13:24I don't know.
0:13:24 > 0:13:28Whoever you listen to, people are saying different things.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30Everyone seems to have a different view.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33You don't know who to believe.
0:13:33 > 0:13:40It just shows how complicated the process is.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44It didn't come to an end when the Assembly was formed.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47We are on a long journey.
0:13:47 > 0:13:52This week, there are a series of powerful programmes on this channel
0:13:52 > 0:13:57looking at the effects of drug and alcohol addiction.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00According to one person who works in the field,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03attitudes towards those who have problems
0:14:03 > 0:14:06with drugs of all kinds need to change.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09It draws attention to the media's treatment of the Paul Flowers story,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11the former chairman of the Co-op bank,
0:14:11 > 0:14:15who was arrested following allegations that he bought cocaine.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17It has certainly challenged the common view
0:14:17 > 0:14:19of the type of people who take drugs.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21Daniel Davies reports.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28On the surface, a respectable man in his 60s.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30A Methodist minister and the chairman of a bank.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33The allegations about Paul Flowers' personal life
0:14:33 > 0:14:35have been scorned by many.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39But others say a man who is now looking for professional help
0:14:39 > 0:14:42deserves our sympathy.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46I'm very disappointed with the self-righteous response
0:14:46 > 0:14:49from many corners of the media.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53It's a problem throughout society.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Every layer of society.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58It is easy to point the finger.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02It's poisoning our society at the moment.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06What this proves is it's a very real problem
0:15:06 > 0:15:09which is weakening our community.
0:15:09 > 0:15:14The Living Room in Cardiff welcomes addicts.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18People like Iwan Jones, who runs a restaurant.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21He got a taste for gambling and alcohol when he was young.
0:15:21 > 0:15:26Throughout my 30s, I carried on as if I was 16.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30I would still go out to nightclubs,
0:15:30 > 0:15:35stay out all night, come in at 7am in the morning.
0:15:35 > 0:15:37My wife was going mad.
0:15:37 > 0:15:42At that stage, you realise you are different to other people.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45At one stage, Iwan was bankrupt.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47Before the recession, it was easy enough
0:15:47 > 0:15:50to find the money to feed the habit.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54Throughout the 2000s, the banks would throw money at you.
0:15:54 > 0:16:00I could go to a casino and lose £50,000 in a couple of hours
0:16:00 > 0:16:04but then go on the Internet and borrow that amount back.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08I ended up with debts of £100,000.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10He says things have improved recently,
0:16:10 > 0:16:15although he still loses his way from time to time.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17The last time was two months ago.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20It lasted three or four days.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22I ended up in hospital.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26Every time I drink now, I end up in hospital
0:16:26 > 0:16:28because I can't stop.
0:16:28 > 0:16:34It has a much bigger effect now because of the bingeing element,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37instead of drinking every day, as many people think alcoholics do,
0:16:37 > 0:16:41you drink a lot more in a short period of time.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45It has a much bigger effect on the body.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50People from all backgrounds come through these doors.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54The message is that there's a fine line between using and dependency.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59Some of them turn up in their BMWs and their Jaguars.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03They are people without much hope,
0:17:03 > 0:17:08who have most probably been to see their GP,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12who has given them medication and sent them away.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15These people are without much hope.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18And they realise they have to do something.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23When you listen to the experience of that individual,
0:17:23 > 0:17:27do you feel sympathy, or no sympathy at all?
0:17:27 > 0:17:29I have a lot of sympathy.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33I speak as a minister of over 20 years.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37And I have dealt with these people as part of my work.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40It is easy to point the finger,
0:17:40 > 0:17:42but once you are in a hole,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46it is very difficult not to fall down that hole even further.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50That is why I welcome ventures like The Living Room
0:17:50 > 0:17:54which try and help people.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59And you have got to understand this state of mind
0:17:59 > 0:18:04and make them acknowledge that they have a problem in the first place.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06They tend to avoid that.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09Once they acknowledge their dependency,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12we can start treating them.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14If we look at Paul Flowers,
0:18:14 > 0:18:17he says he is going to find help after being caught buying drugs.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21But he has become a bit of a scapegoat to politicians.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24Even today at Prime Minister's Questions.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27- Is that fair?- Of course not.
0:18:27 > 0:18:31What's also not fair is that this man found himself in this job,
0:18:31 > 0:18:37where he clearly could not cope,
0:18:37 > 0:18:41but nobody picked up on the fact he was unable to cope.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45The system is to blame somewhere along the line.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49But I welcome this week of raising awareness.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52I welcome anything which tries to break the taboo
0:18:52 > 0:18:55that it is some sort of weakness.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59It is a weakness, but it isn't something to be ashamed of.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03It is similar to taboos with mental health.
0:19:03 > 0:19:09There is an England cricketer who has returned home due to stress.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11I think that was a very brave thing to do.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15It would have been easy for him to say he came home through injury.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18But he admitted he had a problem.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21It is important that people in the public eye
0:19:21 > 0:19:24can acknowledge their problems.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28There are examples of politicians who have been alcoholics.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32The most recent to hit the headlines was Eric Joyce.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35Does it come with the pressure of the work?
0:19:35 > 0:19:38I am not sure about that.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41The truth is, there was a period
0:19:41 > 0:19:47where alcohol played a far more prominent part in everyday life.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49There was a period culturally
0:19:49 > 0:19:53when people would go to the pub at lunchtime if they were in work,
0:19:53 > 0:19:55they would go to the pub after work.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00And that could be the reason that so many people with these problems
0:20:00 > 0:20:04are older people who were brought up with that culture,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07where attitudes towards alcohol were very different.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11I spent a year at Westminster around 25 years ago
0:20:11 > 0:20:17and I suspect that a minority of MPs were completely sober
0:20:17 > 0:20:20by the time they voted at 10pm.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24A very large majority of them were drunk.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29In the days of the mobile phone and the Internet,
0:20:29 > 0:20:32people can no longer hide.
0:20:32 > 0:20:37Wynford Ellis Owen recently wrote a blog about addiction.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39And the point was made
0:20:39 > 0:20:42that we seem to have little sympathy
0:20:42 > 0:20:48towards the man or the woman in the street who has an addiction,
0:20:48 > 0:20:54but we have even less sympathy for people who are well-known faces
0:20:54 > 0:20:56who come out and admit to their addictions.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00Is it now time for us to change our attitudes
0:21:00 > 0:21:04when people acknowledge they are addicts?
0:21:04 > 0:21:08I don't know whether we look at people differently.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11I think every individual is an individual.
0:21:11 > 0:21:16Some people would not want to come out publicly,
0:21:16 > 0:21:18and you have got to respect that.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22But in the same way that Stephen Fry has done it with bipolar,
0:21:22 > 0:21:28he has raised awareness across the world of that condition.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30And people like that are very valuable.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33They are like ambassadors
0:21:33 > 0:21:37who make us rethink the way we look at people.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41Richard, coming back to Paul Flowers and the mayor of Toronto,
0:21:41 > 0:21:47who has come under a lot of criticism recently,
0:21:47 > 0:21:52that is not helpful when it comes to defeating this stigma
0:21:52 > 0:21:56linked to drugs and alcohol and that element of dependency.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59There are several elements.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02You have got the human element.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05You have got to admire the people who spoke in tonight's report
0:22:05 > 0:22:09because it is very easy to scorn people
0:22:09 > 0:22:15who gamble at that level and so on.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19People are very brave to share their experiences. It is an eye-opener.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21We have to move on to our final story,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25which also involves attitudes.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27The Welsh Secretary David Jones
0:22:27 > 0:22:30doesn't like some of the aspects of the way the Assembly works.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33In an interview with The Western Mail,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36he says members look at their computers too much
0:22:36 > 0:22:38and tend to address each other by their first names.
0:22:38 > 0:22:43That does not promote a professional environment, according to Mr Jones,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45or David to his friends. Maybe even Dai!
0:22:45 > 0:22:51There was a campaign by the former Presiding Officer
0:22:51 > 0:22:57to have a far more informal attitude compared to Westminster.
0:22:57 > 0:23:03Yes, and I think things have become more formal over the last few years.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07We are hearing people being addressed as ministers
0:23:07 > 0:23:11or by their full names rather than just their first names.
0:23:11 > 0:23:16But some say this is the reason Assembly sessions are boring.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20At least the chamber is full most of the time,
0:23:20 > 0:23:22which is not true of the House of Commons.
0:23:22 > 0:23:27Does this informality shows a lack of respect?
0:23:27 > 0:23:29I think it is nonsense.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32I think David Jones has got a bee in his bonnet regarding the Assembly.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35He spent a period of time there and several people have remarked
0:23:35 > 0:23:39that the experience was obviously traumatic for him.
0:23:39 > 0:23:44He is always ready to criticise the Assembly
0:23:44 > 0:23:47and very often on the basis of ignorance
0:23:47 > 0:23:52or a lack of information about what has happened
0:23:52 > 0:23:54in the Assembly since he was there.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56In Wales, in the Welsh language,
0:23:56 > 0:23:59we have a problem in terms of addressing people by, "ti" or "chi",
0:23:59 > 0:24:01which don't exist in English,
0:24:01 > 0:24:05when people address each other in Welsh in the chamber.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09It would be shocking if they addressed each other as, "ti".
0:24:09 > 0:24:13I think it's important to address people by their first name.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17If you say, "Minister," you can be mean to them.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20But if I say, "Aled," I can't be as mean.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24I would argue that this makes politics
0:24:24 > 0:24:28more practical and more effective.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31And one other dimension that doesn't occur in the Assembly
0:24:31 > 0:24:34is things don't always go through the chair.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36That's true.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39With 60 members in the Assembly
0:24:39 > 0:24:42and over 600 in Westminster,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44the nature of the debate is going to be different.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Thank you very much. That's it for tonight.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50Y Sgwrs will be return at the same time next week from London.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52Good night.
0:24:55 > 0:24:56Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd