0:00:00 > 0:00:01Welcome back.
0:00:01 > 0:00:04At the start of the new political season, we will be hearing from
0:00:04 > 0:00:09the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, on the floods, councils and rugby,
0:00:09 > 0:00:11tonight on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23Y Sgwrs is back tonight after a Christmas break.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26It's good to be back in Vaughan company
0:00:26 > 0:00:28and to welcome tonight's guests.
0:00:28 > 0:00:33On tonight's panel, the actress and Plaid Cymru supporter Lisabeth Miles,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Nick Bennet, Chief Executive of Community Housing Cymru,
0:00:36 > 0:00:41and, in Bangor, Sion Jones, a Labour councillor in Bethel near Caernarfon.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43A warm welcome to you all.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Vaughan, the start of an exciting year politically.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49- What's going to happen?- Every year is exciting politically,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54but the big thing this year, first, we are preparing for
0:00:54 > 0:00:58the next General Election, but also the vote that will decide
0:00:58 > 0:01:03the shape and size of the United Kingdom with the vote in Scotland.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06There will be European elections as well
0:01:06 > 0:01:10but I think our eyes will be on Edinburgh.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Your anorak will be busy throughout the year.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17And it will be a busy year for politicians in Cardiff.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22Earlier, I asked the First Minister about his priorities and his hopes
0:01:22 > 0:01:23for this year.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27But first, the floods that hit West Wales recently.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Will the local councils have to meet the costs?
0:01:31 > 0:01:35There is a process whereby they can ask us for money
0:01:35 > 0:01:38and they have to apply for that.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41It's not automatic, but it's possible.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44But you will probably have to offer lots of financial assistance?
0:01:44 > 0:01:46It's hard to tell.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Some parts of Wales have had it worse than other parts.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54At the moment, we don't know what the councils will be able to do
0:01:54 > 0:01:56and where they will need more help.
0:01:56 > 0:02:02You can ask London for help as well, and Europe, can't you?
0:02:02 > 0:02:04The Secretary of State for Wales
0:02:04 > 0:02:07says he hasn't received an application from here.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11- Have you asked him?- He said there wouldn't be money before we asked
0:02:11 > 0:02:15- so there's no point. - It's worth asking.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17As a rule, this has been devolved.
0:02:17 > 0:02:22European would be the place where there would be more hope.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26There is a European fund and we have talked to the UK Government
0:02:26 > 0:02:32about the best way to apply for money from that fund.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37- You are going to ask Europe?- Yes. - And wait for the answer.- Yes.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41It was a very difficult time for a lot of Welsh people.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44Of course, you had already organised to go to Uganda.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49Alun Davies, the other minister, was in America and Canada.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54Looking back, do you regret that neither of you was here?
0:02:54 > 0:02:56Alun had gone to Aberystwyth.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01He had gone up there very early to see what had happened.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04He briefed me about the problem.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08I know Aberystwyth well, having been to university there,
0:03:08 > 0:03:12and I had seen several reports about what happened there.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15But do you regret not being there?
0:03:15 > 0:03:17It's difficult, of course.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21I was going to Uganda and Alun had been to Aberystwyth,
0:03:21 > 0:03:26so we knew exactly what had happened,
0:03:26 > 0:03:30and it was important that a minister should be there.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32A new political year.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36It'll be busy with European elections and a referendum in Scotland.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39What are Carwyn Jones' priorities in Wales?
0:03:39 > 0:03:42To make sure the good work continues.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44For example, if we look at the economy,
0:03:44 > 0:03:46things are going fairly well,
0:03:46 > 0:03:49especially with unemployment figures
0:03:49 > 0:03:52and what's going on with young people.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55We need to continue that good work in the economy.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00If we look at health, it's always a challenge for any government.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Things are looking up, of course,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07but it is a challenge for every government in the United Kingdom.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09With education, PISA is very important.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13There are plans in place to deal with PISA and other issues
0:04:13 > 0:04:16but it's going to take a few years
0:04:16 > 0:04:20to see that improvement happening.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23So, more of the same, but many people are asking,
0:04:23 > 0:04:25what is your vision, what is the narrative
0:04:25 > 0:04:29of Carwyn Jones' government? Is there ambition for this year?
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Confidence is everything in Wales.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35People need to understand that they can do things.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38We need to stop thinking that we are the worst at everything
0:04:38 > 0:04:40because it's not true.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43And the confidence to sell Wales to the rest of the world.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47Another challenge this year will be local government.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50We will have the Williams Report on Monday,
0:04:50 > 0:04:53which might suggest fewer councils.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57- Is 22 too many councils for Wales? - I have said it is.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01We will have to wait and see what the recommendations
0:05:01 > 0:05:03of the Williams Commission are.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06If people ask how many there should be,
0:05:06 > 0:05:09well, we'll see what the commission thinks.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11But I see it every day.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Several councils have struggled for years.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18Many councils need help with education and, for some of them,
0:05:18 > 0:05:21it's not clear whether they'll ever be able to do it.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23We can't carry on like that forever.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26We need a sound infrastructure for the people of Wales.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31- So there will be restructuring? - There has to be change.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34That is true. 22 councils are too many.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38There's not much balance either.
0:05:38 > 0:05:43Some are much bigger than others, so we need some kind of restructuring.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47But, in terms of the shape, we'll wait for the Williams Report.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50We mentioned being bottom of the pile.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53In the rugby, we are at the top in the six Nations.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55You are a big rugby fan.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59Does this dispute between the regions disappoint you?
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Well... yes.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07Just like every supporter and player.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13It's very difficult at the moment to see how they will agree.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16I know they have been talking.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18What is important is that we appreciate that...
0:06:20 > 0:06:23..clubs outside of Wales don't always think of the health
0:06:23 > 0:06:25of the game in Wales.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30It's important that we have a system which is sustainable
0:06:30 > 0:06:34from an international point of view but also the regions and the clubs.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39A lot of public bickering has gone on recently.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43We need to make sure that we move towards an agreement.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47You've written to both sides asking for a resolution.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51What is the problem? Personalities, or lack of cooperation?
0:06:51 > 0:06:54It comes down to money.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58The regions would say that they don't get enough money from
0:06:58 > 0:07:00the Pro12 at the moment.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02Is the union greedy?
0:07:02 > 0:07:07No. The union would say that the deal is very fair.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10Is there anything else that you can do as First Minister?
0:07:10 > 0:07:12Can you do more?
0:07:12 > 0:07:15There is nothing I can do to force the issue.
0:07:15 > 0:07:20It's very difficult to become part of it full-time.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23I wouldn't have the time but I am interested.
0:07:23 > 0:07:29If bodies want to talk about the situation confidentially,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32I'm happy to listen,
0:07:32 > 0:07:37but it is something they need to agree amongst themselves.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40What I think is important
0:07:40 > 0:07:43is that they listen to the supporters
0:07:43 > 0:07:47who say, "This has to be sorted out by the end of the month."
0:07:47 > 0:07:50This is what we're good at and we're falling out.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53- That's disappointing. - That's the Welsh way!
0:07:53 > 0:07:56We have a long history of bickering.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00But it's a shame. I don't think it will affect the international game.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04But it's important that the structure below international level
0:08:04 > 0:08:07is strong and that they get along.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10First Minister Carwyn Jones.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12We'll discuss rugby in a moment
0:08:12 > 0:08:14but let's talk about the councils first
0:08:14 > 0:08:18because we have a member of the Williams Commission here.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Nick Bennet, what does it contain?
0:08:20 > 0:08:24I'm happy to come back next week if you want the details.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28- It's important to bear in mind... - Has he seen it?
0:08:28 > 0:08:33I hope he has and I hope he feels confident about next week
0:08:33 > 0:08:37but there were members of every party involved in the commission
0:08:37 > 0:08:40and we reached and agreement.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44It's not just about the future of local government,
0:08:44 > 0:08:46but also the public sector.
0:08:46 > 0:08:51We have to deal with an aging population and less money
0:08:51 > 0:08:55so we have to make sure that public services are in a better state
0:08:55 > 0:08:56in the future.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00It sounds like the First Minister wants to see restructuring.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Yes, and it's worth remembering that Labour promised in the last
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Assembly Election that there would be no restructuring,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10so there has been a change of direction,
0:09:10 > 0:09:15and not just at Assembly level, but at council level.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17The councils see these cuts coming
0:09:17 > 0:09:21and several, especially the small councils,
0:09:21 > 0:09:26like Merthyr, only three-quarters of a constituency - 50,000 people,
0:09:26 > 0:09:30and people know that the infrastructure is unsustainable.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32But Nick makes a fair point.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36Before you decide how many councils there should be,
0:09:36 > 0:09:39you have to decide what you want them to do
0:09:39 > 0:09:43and we might see some responsibilities being transferred
0:09:43 > 0:09:47from local councils to health boards
0:09:47 > 0:09:51or perhaps even to a national Welsh level
0:09:51 > 0:09:55which didn't exist when these councils were first created.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Lisabeth Miles, restructuring is expensive.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02- It costs million. - It's going to cost a lot.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07Everything has to work together.
0:10:07 > 0:10:12It's going to be extremely expensive.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16But the thing is, are we, the taxpayers, going to receive
0:10:16 > 0:10:19an explanation as to why this is necessary
0:10:19 > 0:10:21and how it's going to happen?
0:10:21 > 0:10:26- Do we need 22 education chiefs on big salaries?- Definitely not.
0:10:26 > 0:10:28There are astonishing salaries.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31No, I think we need to cut back.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36Sion in Bangor, what do you think?
0:10:36 > 0:10:41- We've heard... - We have 22 councils in Wales
0:10:41 > 0:10:47and that's too many for the counties in Wales.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49If we can half that number,
0:10:49 > 0:10:53it still leaves us with a lot of councils
0:10:53 > 0:10:55compared to England.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00Personally, I think we need to make sure that the front-line services
0:11:00 > 0:11:05are important - roads and so on, but regarding education
0:11:05 > 0:11:10and social services, we need a more strategic approach.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15Let's move on to Carwyn Jones' priorities.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18He mentioned confidence.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23Delivery was the word we heard last year.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25What does confidence mean to you?
0:11:25 > 0:11:27It's an interesting message.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32We are seeing two parties, the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru,
0:11:32 > 0:11:35seeing the success of the SNP in Scotland
0:11:35 > 0:11:39with a message that, rather than complaining that England
0:11:39 > 0:11:42doesn't do this or the UK doesn't do that,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46but presenting a message of confidence, hope, optimism,
0:11:46 > 0:11:49which struck a chord with the electorate.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53Maybe they've had enough of this idea of a chip on the shoulder
0:11:53 > 0:11:55from the parties in Wales.
0:11:55 > 0:12:00This idea of confidence is part of a political strategy
0:12:00 > 0:12:05but Carwyn Jones realises that the accusation that the government
0:12:05 > 0:12:09is a managerial government with no vision,
0:12:09 > 0:12:15he thinks that is having an effect and he wants to create a vision that
0:12:15 > 0:12:19is beyond the day-to-day decisions
0:12:19 > 0:12:22that any government has to make.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26Lisabeth Miles, as a member of Plaid Cymru, what do you think?
0:12:26 > 0:12:27He was generalising.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31And he was coming out with cliches.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35He was saying things to please people.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39I didn't think he was talking with enough fluency.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43He was more open and had more ideas when he was talking about the rugby.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47He would love to sort that problem out, wouldn't he?
0:12:47 > 0:12:52Sion, more of the same. Is that the vision for this year?
0:12:52 > 0:12:56I think the two main targets for Carwyn Jones
0:12:56 > 0:12:59and the Labour government down in Cardiff Bay
0:12:59 > 0:13:02are to ensure that every department in the Welsh government
0:13:02 > 0:13:04works for the economy
0:13:04 > 0:13:07and works towards developing the Welsh language.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Those are the two main aims the government will work towards.
0:13:10 > 0:13:15Rugby. Nick, he was obviously passionate about the issue.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18He would love to get into that scrum to sort it out.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Is it a politician's place to do that?
0:13:21 > 0:13:25It would be easier to sort out local government than the rugby!
0:13:25 > 0:13:30But, fair play, he showed that he was as enthusiastic
0:13:30 > 0:13:33when it came to the rugby as he was about politics.
0:13:33 > 0:13:38I think it's pay back for what Roger Lewis did in the referendum.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43Ooh, right. Erm, politician sorting out sport?
0:13:43 > 0:13:47Well, we listened to a debate in the Assembly this afternoon.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51They argued about rugby and everybody had something to say.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54I'm sure we'll see it in the local paper.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57I don't think there's much that politicians can do,
0:13:57 > 0:14:02but if the First Minister says he's willing to be
0:14:02 > 0:14:05a neutral chairman for talks, fair enough.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09Sion, the First Minister has more to do with the Health Service
0:14:09 > 0:14:10and education than rugby.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15I think Carwyn Jones has got his priorities in place.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Carwyn Jones is doing great work.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22I am aware that Carwyn Jones follows rugby,
0:14:22 > 0:14:26but I hope that whatever happens with the rugby
0:14:26 > 0:14:29won't affect the Welsh team.
0:14:29 > 0:14:31Thank you.
0:14:31 > 0:14:36A question that comes up regularly is where we should build new homes?
0:14:36 > 0:14:39The last few weeks have shown that flood risk
0:14:39 > 0:14:43are an important consideration, just like the environment
0:14:43 > 0:14:45and the language.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49Should we create new communities?
0:14:49 > 0:14:53That's one of the questions Janet Ebenezer has been asking.
0:14:53 > 0:14:58We know there is a problem regarding a shortage of houses.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01But when plans come out, they are controversial.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06Here in Penybanc, Ammanford, there is strong opposition
0:15:06 > 0:15:10to plans to build 300 houses,
0:15:10 > 0:15:15but wherever the developments are and however big the projects,
0:15:15 > 0:15:20they are always controversial.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23This is the site that has caused a lot of falling out.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26The project has now been approved.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30There is concern that it will affect the Welsh language,
0:15:30 > 0:15:32but there are other concerns as well.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35There are too many houses together
0:15:35 > 0:15:42and it will create an artificial village here.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46That will affect the community.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50But others are worried about their businesses
0:15:50 > 0:15:53and welcome such a development.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57It will help if we have more people here.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00Let's have something more long-term.
0:16:00 > 0:16:06- Is that what the area needs? - Yes. Definitely.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10We are going to stay here and we enjoy working here.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Research by the Government warns simply that Wales does not
0:16:15 > 0:16:17have sufficient housing.
0:16:17 > 0:16:23It estimates that we need 14,000 new houses every year over
0:16:23 > 0:16:28the next 15 years, so how serious is the situation?
0:16:28 > 0:16:35It has been proved that if a child is brought up in a warm house,
0:16:35 > 0:16:39they are going to perform better academically
0:16:39 > 0:16:45and as people, so socially, we need to provide housing for people.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50But what about creating new towns and cities?
0:16:50 > 0:16:53Some experts say this is the answer.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58A report for the UK Government recommends building two new
0:16:58 > 0:17:00cities in the south-east of England.
0:17:00 > 0:17:05Would that be an option in Wales?
0:17:05 > 0:17:11Perhaps Coed Darcy near Neath is the closest thing to a new town.
0:17:11 > 0:17:16It is proposed to build 4,000 new homes,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20with schools and facilities here.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25It is on an old oil refinery site. Creating towns is nothing new.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29After the Second World War, after a nationwide effort,
0:17:29 > 0:17:33new towns were established in Cwmbran and Newtown.
0:17:33 > 0:17:39Creating a new town is an extreme measure.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43In England, the problem is worse than in Wales,
0:17:43 > 0:17:45especially in the south-east.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Housing provision has been devolved there.
0:17:48 > 0:17:54But it is an extreme measure
0:17:54 > 0:18:00and I don't see that happening in Wales for years.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04So there is a demand, but the process of providing
0:18:04 > 0:18:09sufficient homes for the future is much more complex.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Nick Bennet, you work in the industry.
0:18:12 > 0:18:18It must be a nightmare to find somewhere with no opposition?
0:18:18 > 0:18:19There's always opposition.
0:18:19 > 0:18:24Everybody wants to go to heaven.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28Sometimes you have great problems with NIMBYs
0:18:28 > 0:18:32but in most Welsh communities,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35we know that we need affordable housing
0:18:35 > 0:18:40and I'm glad my sector is helping with that,
0:18:40 > 0:18:44but we don't need new towns.
0:18:44 > 0:18:50That was the response to the war in the last century,
0:18:50 > 0:18:55and the fact that towns were over-populated
0:18:55 > 0:18:58with no fresh air and gardens.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03Now we need more resources for more houses over the next ten years.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07Yes, we must have affordable housing,
0:19:07 > 0:19:08and isn't it an artificial thing.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12A community has to develop.
0:19:12 > 0:19:18We need a cross-section of people in any community.
0:19:18 > 0:19:23We need a high percentage of houses where young people can move in,
0:19:23 > 0:19:27not just older people.
0:19:27 > 0:19:34There are houses here in Cardiff that young people cannot afford.
0:19:34 > 0:19:41They'll be bought by people with money and jobs.
0:19:41 > 0:19:47We need something that isn't just on the outskirts of towns and cities.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Bodelwyddan, for instance.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55There are hundreds of houses being built there.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00They'll be bought by people from Chester.
0:20:00 > 0:20:06It is not right that that should happen to communities.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10Sion, Adam Price has suggested
0:20:10 > 0:20:15a new town on the Menai Straits.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17Is that the answer?
0:20:17 > 0:20:24Gwynedd and Anglesey Councils are designing a local development plan.
0:20:24 > 0:20:32I had a meeting in Bethel last week to identify local needs.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36There are only six houses for sale in the Bethel constituency
0:20:36 > 0:20:40which has a population of 300,000 people.
0:20:40 > 0:20:47We need an assessment to have houses developed locally.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50On the other hand,
0:20:50 > 0:20:55it is important to talk to people and consult locally.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59They are the people who know where to develop
0:20:59 > 0:21:02and where the best locations are.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06In England, they are looking at garden cities.
0:21:06 > 0:21:12I think this has been sparked by the HS2 business.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16So I think there's room for development
0:21:16 > 0:21:19but it's important to consult local people
0:21:19 > 0:21:23to ensure the right decisions are made.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Vaughan, with all the obstacles in terms of planning,
0:21:26 > 0:21:31the environment and the language, it is very difficult.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34Yes, and there are problems unique to Wales.
0:21:34 > 0:21:38The housing stock is amongst the oldest in Europe.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42The houses that young people can afford are often old,
0:21:42 > 0:21:49terraced industrial housing, which are very difficult to heat.
0:21:49 > 0:21:54There are all sorts of questions about improving the existing
0:21:54 > 0:22:02housing stock in the mining areas and quarrying areas.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06How do you improve those houses?
0:22:06 > 0:22:10Are we going to see new towns in Wales?
0:22:10 > 0:22:15Cwmbran, Rhiwbina in Cardiff. Will we see developments like that?
0:22:15 > 0:22:22It is important not to complicate things.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27We shouldn't confuse town planning with the need for affordable
0:22:27 > 0:22:30housing in every village in Wales.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34We have to ensure that we have provision all over the country.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38A Milton Keynes in Mid Wales won't do that.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42Thank you. Earlier on, we talked about the successes
0:22:42 > 0:22:45of the international rugby team.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47Let's talk about another team.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51Yesterday, Plaid Cymru announced its new leaders.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55There are not so many of them for the new season.
0:22:55 > 0:23:00This is the top team. What do you make of them, Vaughan?
0:23:00 > 0:23:03The famous five.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06We won't ask which one is Timmy!
0:23:06 > 0:23:11Leanne Wood is creating a team which can be effective in an election.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14She's talking about a small focused Cabinet
0:23:14 > 0:23:17in order to focus on Welsh problems.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21The truth is that they're TV and radio performers.
0:23:21 > 0:23:29She hopes that will make Plaid more effective as a campaigning team.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33Are you happy? Some of the old names have gone.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35They're a bit more substantial than that.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37They're not just performers.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41It's important to be able to convey a message.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43You know how important a performance is, Lis.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46I agree that it's important.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48But they have some substance, too.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51And a small team can easily form a coalition.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54Perhaps, but once again the same pattern
0:23:54 > 0:23:58as we saw in the Scottish Cabinet.
0:23:58 > 0:24:03There is a feeling across the opposition parties
0:24:03 > 0:24:06that the Welsh Government is far too big in terms
0:24:06 > 0:24:12of ministers and deputy ministers and councillors
0:24:12 > 0:24:16and some people think it is wasteful.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18That could be a factor in Welsh politics
0:24:18 > 0:24:23as the two major elections approach.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27Our time is over. Thank you, everybody, for coming tonight.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30But before we finish,
0:24:30 > 0:24:36the latest about the coastguards in Fishguard.
0:24:36 > 0:24:41They have been searching after reports that an aeroplane crashed.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43The searching has now finished.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47The coastguard in Milford Haven say it doesn't look like an accident
0:24:47 > 0:24:50has happened after all.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54More discussion next week. Good night all.