0:00:00 > 0:00:01Welcome back. A challenge for you.
0:00:01 > 0:00:05It appears there are more than 900 public bodies in Wales.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09But how many of them can you name and what do they all do?
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Vaughan is here to mark tonight's answers on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:21 > 0:00:26Don't worry too much if you can't name every public body in Wales.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30But Vaughan, of course, can name all 935 of them.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33- Of course.- In alphabetical order.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37I'm sure Nerys Evans can too, a member of the Williams Commission
0:00:37 > 0:00:40which has been looking at our councils and public bodies.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43She is also a former Plaid Cymru AM.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Also here is Bethan Darwin, a solicitor in Cardiff,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and joining us from Bangor is businessman Gari Wyn.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Welcome to you all.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56The future of our county councils has received a lot of attention
0:00:56 > 0:01:01after the Williams Commission recommended cutting the current 22
0:01:01 > 0:01:04down to 12 or fewer as soon as possible.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08The commission also looked at Welsh public bodies in general.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10It is a complicated picture.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14There are hundreds of them. But are they all needed?
0:01:14 > 0:01:19Janet Ebenezer has been to the heart of Ceredigion to hear people's views.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34How did you manage to pull that load down on top of you?
0:01:34 > 0:01:39I saw the stack wobbling.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43I climbed to the top, close to the zinc roof.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46I don't like heights.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Here are some of Pontrhydfendigaid's residents.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51They are rehearsing their play, "Profi'r Pils".
0:01:51 > 0:01:54The play is about a bull which has failed to conceive.
0:01:54 > 0:01:59The farmer has found special pills that will help solve the problem.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02But it's possible that we'll need more than pills
0:02:02 > 0:02:07to make sense of all the public bodies currently operating in Wales.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13Earlier this week, the Williams Commission unveiled its plan
0:02:13 > 0:02:15for council mergers.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18It recommended merging Ceredigion with Pembrokeshire
0:02:18 > 0:02:22and possibly with Carmarthenshire as well.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27But do the actors here believe that is a good idea?
0:02:27 > 0:02:32If it means, in the long run, that we will save money
0:02:32 > 0:02:36and that there will be improvements to our amenities
0:02:36 > 0:02:41as well as improvements to the services we get from the councils,
0:02:41 > 0:02:46such as hospital services, transport, and so on,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48it will be for the best.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52They're going to be big, when maybe we should have smaller units.
0:02:52 > 0:02:57We have community councils that are, unfortunately, losing power.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01I've been a councillor for many years
0:03:01 > 0:03:03and these councils have lost their power.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08They'll only be meeting soon to make sure the grass is cut
0:03:08 > 0:03:11and that the lights come on.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15I can't see that giving all the power to large councils
0:03:15 > 0:03:17will help us.
0:03:17 > 0:03:22This report says there are many public bodies in Wales.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24You have very large and very small ones.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28There are at least 935 of them in total.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32They are responsible for things like education, health or housing.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36You also have all the councils and the Assembly.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41For Pontrhydfendigaid, here are some of the public bodies
0:03:41 > 0:03:44which are responsible for different aspects in residents' lives.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47But that's not the half of it.
0:03:47 > 0:03:53Are you clear on what these bodies do for you and for your community?
0:03:53 > 0:03:57There is a list there, but it is a short one
0:03:57 > 0:04:00compared to the total number of councils that exist.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04But the main reason for councils is to take action
0:04:04 > 0:04:05in order to get results.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10Because we have so many councils and reporting back and forth,
0:04:10 > 0:04:14decisions aren't taken with one so it has to go to another,
0:04:14 > 0:04:18so the whole thing, including the personnel attending the meetings,
0:04:18 > 0:04:20the costs involved with the meetings,
0:04:20 > 0:04:25means time, months, are spent before we get results.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27It's important to have these meetings,
0:04:27 > 0:04:31but one meeting leads to another,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33then you have to report back.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38Perhaps we could cut that through better co-operation.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42There's too much bureaucracy, too many people in suits at meetings,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44they talk a lot, but they don't take action.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48We need more action and cut back at the top.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52The workers are facing cuts at the moment.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56I would say that we need to cut back on some of the larger wages.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58There are too many people on large incomes.
0:04:58 > 0:05:02By merging public bodies, we should hopefully have less managers
0:05:02 > 0:05:04and fewer large incomes.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08Hopefully, we as communities should benefit from this.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10You work for the council,
0:05:10 > 0:05:16how will cutting the number of councils affect you?
0:05:16 > 0:05:19I remember working for Dyfed Council before.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23We were better off when the three counties were one.
0:05:23 > 0:05:30The workers, certainly, were much better off.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33Will the Williams Commission receive support?
0:05:33 > 0:05:36How many councils will there be in Wales?
0:05:36 > 0:05:39And will the bull hit his mark?
0:05:42 > 0:05:44Janet Ebenezer and the people of Pontrhydfendigaid.
0:05:44 > 0:05:48Vaughan, at least 935 public bodies in Wales.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52On page 355 of the Williams Commission report,
0:05:52 > 0:05:54there is a diagram and this is it.
0:05:54 > 0:05:59Do you understand this diagram? Here it is.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04This glorious chart of Welsh public bodies.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06The only political chart which is more complicated than this
0:06:06 > 0:06:12is the one which shows the Liberal Democrats' disciplinary procedures.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13I must say that's much worse!
0:06:13 > 0:06:16We are looking at a situation where everybody talks about
0:06:16 > 0:06:21the need for co-operation and more co-ordination
0:06:21 > 0:06:24but that is very difficult with so many bodies.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28but getting rid of these bodies doesn't always solve the problem.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31Do you remember the bonfire of the Quangos?
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Rhodri Morgan wanted to get rid of them by merging them
0:06:34 > 0:06:36and bringing everything together under one roof.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Talking to people involved with economic development,
0:06:39 > 0:06:44they'd tell you that the new system is less effective
0:06:44 > 0:06:48than the old system which had bodies such as the WDA.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52There are now calls for the old system to be recreated.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55The point is, the point they're making
0:06:55 > 0:06:58is that you don't just have to get rid of bodies,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02but you must put in a new system which is more efficient.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06Cutting the numbers doesn't necessarily solve the problem,
0:07:06 > 0:07:08but I don't think anyone can argue sensibly
0:07:08 > 0:07:13for councils the size of Merthyr, Blaenau Gwent
0:07:13 > 0:07:15and, population-wise, Anglesey.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17Nerys, as a member of this commission,
0:07:17 > 0:07:21you found it difficult to find a list of all these bodies.
0:07:21 > 0:07:22It doesn't exits, does it?
0:07:22 > 0:07:27I believe that speaks volumes concerning the public sector's size.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31The commission's remit was wide - to look at how the public sector
0:07:31 > 0:07:34is implemented and how is it governed.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37As well as this diagram, we have another one.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41I would recommend that everyone reads the whole report.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44It shows how many partnerships are available.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46We have many small groups in Wales.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49There is a diagram, which looks like spaghetti,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52showing how people have to work with the different bodies.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56Many chief executives from different groups told us
0:07:56 > 0:08:00that more than half their time was spent on these partnerships.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05We have to think about the waste in governance that this leads to.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08Because money is going to be so tight,
0:08:08 > 0:08:10that money needs to go to the front line.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14Gari Wyn, as a businessman, what do you make of all these committees?
0:08:14 > 0:08:17I'm not an expert on local government,
0:08:17 > 0:08:22but I am aware of the effect councils have on our lives.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27We could lose about 15,000 council workers in Wales
0:08:27 > 0:08:32over a short period, possibly within three years,
0:08:32 > 0:08:34and the starting cost could be something between
0:08:34 > 0:08:36£200 million and £400 million.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40Those costs will be carried through to business rates
0:08:40 > 0:08:42and domestic taxes
0:08:42 > 0:08:45could increase by at least 1.5% to 2%.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48So is the public sector fine as it is?
0:08:48 > 0:08:49I'm not saying that.
0:08:49 > 0:08:54I'm just concerned about having the right people to move this forwards.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58Are we changing for geographical and logistic reasons
0:08:58 > 0:09:01or do we truly have the correct mindset
0:09:01 > 0:09:06so that we have the right people managing this step,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09that we have the right leaders, especially councillors.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13Do we elect our councillors
0:09:13 > 0:09:16and think carefully about whether these councillors
0:09:16 > 0:09:18will be able to make these decisions
0:09:18 > 0:09:22to look after social services and every other department?
0:09:22 > 0:09:26I'd like to bring Bethan in because you work in the private sector.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29You are also on a number of public bodies.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31How do you compare both sectors?
0:09:31 > 0:09:35The private sector has already gone through this process
0:09:35 > 0:09:37of bringing things together to make savings.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40There are fewer workers, because of the extra costs.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43The system is very complicated.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47I believe service users just want to know if the service is available
0:09:47 > 0:09:49and on time.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53But they also want to save money and face fewer costs.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56Sometimes, those things conflict.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59You may need to make big changes, which cost a lot of money,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02but it may lead to better efficiency in the end.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04People are worried about jobs, of course.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07What is the mindset about committee's in Wales?
0:10:07 > 0:10:10Many people take pride in working in the public sector.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14Enterprise is a dirty word for many in Wales, unfortunately.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18I won't name the council, but there was one Welsh council
0:10:18 > 0:10:22about 15 years ago, which established a sub-committee
0:10:22 > 0:10:26to consider how to cut the number of committees.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29That sub-committee was a permanent one!
0:10:29 > 0:10:33That is, Wales enjoys having committees.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37It goes based on life in chapel, as far as I can tell.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41But if you look at us, Wales is a small country
0:10:41 > 0:10:44with a population of around three million.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46That population may be spread out,
0:10:46 > 0:10:52but I'm sure we could cut the number of public bodies that we have.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57But, as I said, if you do that on a whim,
0:10:57 > 0:10:59without a detailed plan in place...
0:10:59 > 0:11:02There are parts of the report which deals with this,
0:11:02 > 0:11:04but they haven't had much attention.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07These parts talk about finance and so on.
0:11:07 > 0:11:11If you don't have a system that can operate,
0:11:11 > 0:11:13there's no point changing at all.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17As Gari suggested, the starting costs are very high,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19before the savings are delivered.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22The Williams Commission had a broad remit.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25We looked at how we could improve services for people in Wales,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27not just boundaries on a map.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31there are clear differences between authorities in Wales.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34In one authority, you could wait a year longer than another
0:11:34 > 0:11:36for changes to your house.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37Or you may be twice as likely
0:11:37 > 0:11:41of contracting MRSA in one health authority than in another.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43The Williams Commission looked at everything
0:11:43 > 0:11:46and we concluded that we needed larger local authority units
0:11:46 > 0:11:51so that front-line services would get the correct funding
0:11:51 > 0:11:53to protect those jobs.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57The estimate concerning jobs was done way before we reported.
0:11:57 > 0:12:02It is not based on the facts that have come out from the commission.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07Gari Wyn, George Osborne wants to cut the public sector
0:12:07 > 0:12:11and he believes the private sector will grow and replace it.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13That is happening, the figures suggest so.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15The figures do suggest this.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17But it has to happen.
0:12:17 > 0:12:22Only a quarter of the Welsh Government's income
0:12:22 > 0:12:24is paid for through businesses and domestic taxes.
0:12:24 > 0:12:2875% currently comes through public grants.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30How long will that last?
0:12:30 > 0:12:33What worries me, within this report,
0:12:33 > 0:12:36the Welsh Government has given five proposals.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40There is one which is very relevant to S4C viewers.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43There is a clause which says they are looking at the counties
0:12:43 > 0:12:45which are Welsh-speaking in nature
0:12:45 > 0:12:48and those which are English-speaking separately.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50I believe that segregates us.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53It could, possibly, open the floodgates to create a feeling
0:12:53 > 0:12:56within predominantly English-speaking counties,
0:12:56 > 0:13:00that they do not have a duty towards Welsh speakers.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02Nerys, would you like to answer this as a member of the commission?
0:13:02 > 0:13:04That wasn't the intention.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07We were looking at protecting areas like Gwynedd,
0:13:07 > 0:13:09where people work through the medium of Welsh,
0:13:09 > 0:13:13to make sure a larger authority protects that policy
0:13:13 > 0:13:16and that it can be expanded in other counties.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18That was the aim, to expand the policy.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22I believe it's dangerous because it gives a clear suggestion
0:13:22 > 0:13:26that if you put Wrexham and Flintshire together, for example,
0:13:26 > 0:13:30you won't have any love towards the Welsh language
0:13:30 > 0:13:31and it won't be seen as important.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36The west will then be left behind like some backwater,
0:13:36 > 0:13:39cut off from civilisation.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42Bethan, as I said, you've worked in both sectors.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46Are there lessons to be learned from the private sector?
0:13:46 > 0:13:48I would say the process is going to be a painful one.
0:13:48 > 0:13:53It is going to cost, but it's also going to hurt to the individuals
0:13:53 > 0:13:55who work there and who may lose their jobs.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00You won't need every chief executive that you currently have.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04You won't need two sets of HR staff under these changes.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06That process needs to be thought out,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09so that it can be done systematically.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14It needs to deal with the effect it will have on individuals.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16It's also worth remembering
0:14:16 > 0:14:19that we have this idea that everyone in the public sector
0:14:19 > 0:14:20lives comfortably.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23But most of these people do jobs which are required
0:14:23 > 0:14:25on relatively low wages.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28Nobody is angered more by the high wages of chief executives
0:14:28 > 0:14:32than the workers at the councils themselves.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34We can see that across the public sector.
0:14:34 > 0:14:39This idea that public sector workers want a chief executive
0:14:39 > 0:14:43who earns £300,000 or whatever, just isn't true.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47We'll end this conversation, Nerys, on the timetable.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49What is the ideal timetable?
0:14:49 > 0:14:52There has been a lot of debate since the announcement was made.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56Local authority chief executives told us
0:14:56 > 0:14:59about the dead hand of reorganisation.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Once the commission published its findings,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05it would be difficult to attract and retain people in posts.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09Once the map, or any recommendation for the future is released,
0:15:09 > 0:15:13local authorities would converse with each other and look ahead.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16It may happen automatically in some areas,
0:15:16 > 0:15:19but we hope the Welsh Government will lead on this
0:15:19 > 0:15:21and look at the recommendations in their entirety
0:15:21 > 0:15:26and not just this small aspect which has received all the attention.
0:15:26 > 0:15:27Thank you.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32At Westminster, the Liberal Democrats are still in a bit of a pickle
0:15:32 > 0:15:34concerning the way they dealt with accusations
0:15:34 > 0:15:38made by some women with the party about the behaviour of Lord Rennard.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42The issue has raised questions
0:15:42 > 0:15:46about women's experiences within the political world.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48We have been speaking to Heledd Fychan
0:15:48 > 0:15:49who became disillusioned
0:15:49 > 0:15:53following her experience of attempting to be nominated
0:15:53 > 0:15:55for an Assembly constituency seat.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02If you go into the political world people will challenge you,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05people will hate you because they disagree with your opinion
0:16:05 > 0:16:08and disagree with your party's policies.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10But where I think it's different for women is
0:16:10 > 0:16:15they not only disagree with you but they question the way you look,
0:16:15 > 0:16:20your weight and also ask questions about your family.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23If you have children, who looks after them
0:16:23 > 0:16:25while you dare to follow a political career?
0:16:25 > 0:16:30That pressure gets to be a lot more personal and it did surprise me.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34By being a bit younger I was a bit more naive
0:16:34 > 0:16:38and I had been brought up to think women could do everything men can.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Nobody questioned the fact I had political ambitions.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45Suddenly, from being a mother myself, my son was six weeks old
0:16:45 > 0:16:49when I went for the nomination for latest by-election on Anglesey,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I received terrible e-mails.
0:16:52 > 0:16:54They weren't from party members
0:16:54 > 0:16:58but from addresses without names to them,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01with a made up name and so on.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03They challenged my decision to do that
0:17:03 > 0:17:08and attacked my decision to dare go the Senedd
0:17:08 > 0:17:10while I had son who was so young.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12What kind of things were in these e-mails?
0:17:12 > 0:17:16They questioned what would happen to my son.
0:17:16 > 0:17:21They criticised the fact that I had an ambition and that was awful.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24That I was a selfish person.
0:17:24 > 0:17:29Plenty of people are ready to criticise the way politicians act
0:17:29 > 0:17:31and I wanted to do something positive.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35Having someone think it's a selfish thing to do
0:17:35 > 0:17:38and you somehow effect your son's future by putting your name forward,
0:17:38 > 0:17:41that does hurt.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45What's ironic is, the same time I had my son,
0:17:45 > 0:17:47even within my own party,
0:17:47 > 0:17:51an MP had become a father and had a small child.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Nobody questioned whether he should stand for election.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58Other men become fathers.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02Nobody questions if they should stand again or be candidates.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06What's surprised me is the amount of people who have told me
0:18:06 > 0:18:09I must be relieved that I haven't been chosen
0:18:09 > 0:18:13because what would have happened to my son?
0:18:13 > 0:18:17Do they question men to the same extent?
0:18:17 > 0:18:18Well, no.
0:18:18 > 0:18:22It's seen as a positive factor, the fact they are fathers,
0:18:22 > 0:18:24they are family men.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26It has made me a bit disillusioned.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29I don't know if I'll stand again in future.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34I still believe strongly in the party's principles.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36I do believe in the political world.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40The only thing I'm questioning is, is it the right time for me
0:18:40 > 0:18:46to go for it? Presently, I don't intend to stand for a long time.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50but a week is a long time in politics.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52Maybe I'll say something different in 12 months' time.
0:18:52 > 0:18:57At the moment it's made think about concentrating on a different career.
0:18:57 > 0:19:02I don't need those attitudes in my life at the moment.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04Heledd Fychan's experiences.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07Nerys, you're familiar with the political world.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09Is it an unfair world for women?
0:19:09 > 0:19:11It can be.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14I was saddened to hear Heledd's comments and I hope
0:19:14 > 0:19:17her experiences and those of other women's
0:19:17 > 0:19:20especially in the Lib Dems with the Rennard story,
0:19:20 > 0:19:24don't persuade young women to turn their backs on politics.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28It is important we have women of all ages, and men of all ages,
0:19:28 > 0:19:31putting themselves forward for elections
0:19:31 > 0:19:36because it makes our political world and the law making process
0:19:36 > 0:19:39much richer, by having these experiences
0:19:39 > 0:19:43and to have different people standing for different seats.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45Have you ever come across any behaviour that's offended you?
0:19:45 > 0:19:50Yes, in many areas of my life not just in the political world.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54I think women have to put up with things, as Heledd mentioned,
0:19:54 > 0:19:56that men wouldn't be questioned on.
0:19:56 > 0:20:01Young women who speak out about what they believe in...
0:20:01 > 0:20:05What effect has the events within the Liberal Democrats had?
0:20:05 > 0:20:08You're close friends with one of the women who complained
0:20:08 > 0:20:10about Rennard.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13I also talked to her last Sunday.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16The concern she had was because of what has happened
0:20:16 > 0:20:19women and girls will be less likely
0:20:19 > 0:20:21to speak out.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24The only way this is going to end
0:20:24 > 0:20:27is when people complain and speak out.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29It is a mess.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32The way the party has dealt with it is a mess.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36The only hope is that the other parties will learn lessons from this
0:20:36 > 0:20:40so they put processes in place to deal with such matters.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42Are you happy with Plaid Cymru's processes?
0:20:42 > 0:20:45We went through the process of reviewing our policies internally
0:20:45 > 0:20:47after the last election.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51Things are in place to make sure complaints are dealt with
0:20:51 > 0:20:53in a sensitive manner.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56But there is a problem with what Heledd was saying.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59She said she didn't think that the people of Plaid Cymru did this
0:20:59 > 0:21:01but she received these anonymous e-mails.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05We've seen Stan Collymore's story today.
0:21:05 > 0:21:10- The ability to be cruel... - Anonymously.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13..makes the problem much worse.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16Gari, women in the workplace.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19You run garages, do you employ women at all?
0:21:19 > 0:21:25Women can't turn torque wrenches and hold gear boxes, and lift engines.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29It's not practical.
0:21:29 > 0:21:30Maybe they can.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32I don't think so.
0:21:32 > 0:21:33Find me one and I'll employ her.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40The words come to mind are storm in a teacup.
0:21:42 > 0:21:46It is dull. But there are strong points from what Heledd said.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48That is in a Welsh category.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51But women have been offended and almost mistreated.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53It isn't a storm in a teacup.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56If a man puts his hand on a woman's knee
0:21:56 > 0:22:00in this enlightened day and age, give him a slap.
0:22:00 > 0:22:01Tell him not to do it again.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Chances are he won't do it again.
0:22:04 > 0:22:05I didn't hear that.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09The suggestion is in the newspapers is
0:22:09 > 0:22:15that Lord Rennard who is called Lord Lard
0:22:15 > 0:22:18by the Daily Express.
0:22:18 > 0:22:23Is that prejudicial against a man who doesn't look attractive?
0:22:23 > 0:22:24You're taking Lord Rennard's side?
0:22:24 > 0:22:27No, I'm not but I do sympathise with him slightly
0:22:27 > 0:22:31because he is sincere but doesn't look the part.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35We have to make it clear that Heledd Fychan's experiences
0:22:35 > 0:22:36are a different topic.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39But Bethan, please respond to what Gari has just said.
0:22:39 > 0:22:44When it comes to sexual harassment,
0:22:44 > 0:22:48it's personal to the people in that situation.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50A lot of it has do with power.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Only a powerful person feels they can put their hand
0:22:53 > 0:22:55on someone's knee.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58A less powerful person wouldn't do that.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02Attitudes need to be changed. Maybe a slap would work
0:23:02 > 0:23:05but it would better if people didn't do it in the first place
0:23:05 > 0:23:07and didn't think it was acceptable.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10You are a powerful woman in your company.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13Maybe some men are afraid of you.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15Can it work both ways?
0:23:18 > 0:23:21That's true. That is a problem I have come across.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23I specialise in employment law.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26I do see many more men complaining these days
0:23:26 > 0:23:28about the way they're treated.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30That's a lot to do with the media.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33That Diet Coke advert drives me mad.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36Women spill Diet Coke on a man so he takes his top off.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38I do think it works both ways.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Women are ready to do the same thing back to men.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46There's been a to of talk about the culture in Westminster,
0:23:46 > 0:23:48is the culture in the Assembly different?
0:23:48 > 0:23:53It is different in that there are more women there.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56It isn't completely equal as it was in the last Assembly.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58It's 40%.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00It's about 40%.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03The hours mean there isn't this...
0:24:03 > 0:24:08It was once said that the House of Commons sailed on a sea of Chablis.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11That doesn't happen in the Assembly to the same extent.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15But we have to admit that there have been cases.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18A few Assembly members have been quite open about their problems.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22Those types of problems everywhere in society.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27The answer every time, I'd say, is for people to speak up.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31The best disinfectant is light.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35And on that note... And education.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39Thank you all four for joining us this evening.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41That's it for another week.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Y Sgwrs will be back next week.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Until then, from all of us here, good evening.